00:00:16 It's neat to see how small it actually is. 00:00:45 If a hithero-undiscovered volcano were to instantly dump ash on Chicago, future archaeologists may deduce that the RnRS are some kind of religious manuals, since I'm sure there's at least a half dozen copies of the R5RS misplaced around here somewhere. 00:01:49 -!- haesbaert [n=haesbaer@201.54.129.16] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:41 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:05 tjafk [n=timj@e176209120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 00:07:56 chandler: And if a non-procedure be passed as the first argument to APPLY, then shalt thou raise an error! 00:08:40 Does anyone here use Monotone? 00:09:06 The presence of a copy of CLtL2 may add much confusion, though. :-) 00:10:01 (For so saith passage 6:4 in the book of Standard Procedures.) 00:11:01 chandler: Clearly, the inhabitant must have been a scholar of comparative religion. 00:12:45 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:16:09 amttc [n=alex@adsl-190-186-4.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:26:07 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 00:30:26 yome [n=usah@70.48.77.153] has joined #scheme 00:30:45 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rib4.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 00:34:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-200.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:18 -!- karme [n=user@kallisto.karme.de] has left #scheme 00:34:48 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d154-20-140-113.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:11 Hi #scheme 00:37:27 blackened`___ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 00:37:47 Hello, yome! 00:37:53 Long time no see. 00:39:16 hi chandler! 00:39:57 We're releasing a game written in Scheme on Steam pretty soon (http://quantzgame.com), so if anybody wants a Beta key just let me know. 00:40:38 Neat! What dialect / implementation is that based on? 00:42:42 chandler, Gambit-C 00:42:48 That's what I was guessing. 00:42:54 :p 00:42:55 I'd love to try it out. 00:43:01 90% of the code is Scheme 00:43:07 chandler, do you have Steam? 00:43:12 I do. 00:43:22 I'll /msg you a key 00:43:56 chandler, there you go. 00:50:22 I'd really like to check it out too 00:50:49 Arelius, I'll msg you a key, just a sec... 00:51:22 Arelius, there you go. 00:51:53 (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f (f x)))) -- does this mean that a function f and a value x are passed in and you get back h(x) where h(x) = f(f(x)) ? 00:51:54 -!- blackened`__ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:24 Also, I'd like to hear about the development some time 00:55:29 Steam? 00:55:44 boringwall: (define foo ...) where ... is what you wrote 00:55:48 foof: Valve's PC Game Distribution system. 00:56:25 Arelius, I hope to do a post-mortem "soon" 00:56:32 and then ((foo sqr) 3) -> 81 00:57:05 or (foo sqr), which evals to a procedure that squares the input twice. 00:57:23 yome: That'd be great. Did the GC ever cause any problems? 00:58:41 Arelius, not really, we're just careful about keeping live data someplace where it wont be moved around all the time by the GC 00:58:50 But honestly, it wasn't much of an issue. 00:59:11 -!- blackened`___ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 01:00:01 Neat, as I recall Unreal's GC even though it was just for game objects would cause trouble every once in a while 01:00:05 if left unchecked 01:03:30 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 01:03:44 yome: Oh, this is Gamerizon. 01:05:56 bzzbzz [n=franco@CPE000fb066aac0-CM009096116b7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:05:57 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@CPE000fb066aac0-CM009096116b7a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:06:26 arcfide, yup 01:08:15 Does anyone know about the FD_SET arrays? I'm interested in the differences of implementation, mostly. 01:08:27 I'm trying to see if I can build a Scheme only interface to them. 01:09:21 yome: Did Gambit work well in this context? 01:09:24 Is there a particularly good reason to build a Scheme interface to select(), as opposed to an abstraction layer like libev/libevent? 01:09:42 chandler: Non-blocking I/O with sockets. 01:10:24 arcfide, yes, Gambit was very helpful in that context. Fast, runs anywhere, interface well with C/C++/Obj-C 01:10:45 chandler: If you have a suggestion for a better interface...I'm open. 01:10:50 I must be missing something; what does select() do in this particular context that libevent does not? 01:11:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-evjeeuykpzwwmsec] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:23 chandler: I used select() because I am not familiar with libevent. In fact, is that even part of the standard UNIX system calls? 01:12:00 It's not. It's an abstraction layer for select()-like interfaces, which also covers kqueue(), epoll(), and other mechanisms. 01:12:25 chandler: Is it porbable to Windows? 01:12:35 Yes. 01:12:37 yome: It's a bit slow, any of the modes faster paced? 01:12:53 chandler: Why would I want to use it over basic select() 01:12:54 ? 01:13:11 Arelius, it gets harder, but that's a comment I've heard before... Maybe try the Puzzle mode 01:13:45 arcfide: http://monkey.org/~provos/libevent/libevent-benchmark.jpg and http://monkey.org/~provos/libevent/libevent-benchmark2.jpg should explain 01:15:04 chandler: Hrm, I don't have libevent installed on my machine. Is it common? 01:15:58 I don't know. Probably not. 01:16:36 As far as what the insides of a fd_set look like, I have no idea, but I wouldn't bet on it being the same on multiple operating systems. 01:17:19 chandler: Well, it seems to be fairly straightforward from one UNIX box to the next that I have seen. An array of longs and a standard function for grabbing bits from them. 01:17:20 I think I was on puzzle mode 01:17:36 Hm. I'm surprised then. 01:17:37 I think the most frustrating part is that I couldn't do anything when there was a "fireball" up 01:19:51 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@237.sub-75-217-255.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:57 Arelius, hold the left mouse button to go into "bullet time" 01:23:37 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:25:29 But that just seems to slow it down more 01:25:36 anyways, bbiab 01:29:40 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:37:25 -!- amttc [n=alex@adsl-190-186-4.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 01:43:22 Okay, so, I'm taking a poll. :-) For socket procedures that return conditions, and especially for those that may involve non-blocking operations, what interface do you prefer? 1) Raise a condition type unique to the type of error from the socket; 2) Return a condition type; 3) Return two values, one indicating success or failure, the other with either a condition or the result; 4) Other (please describe). 01:43:51 Sorry, and I should clarify that for 1 & 2, the procedures return their expected values on non-error cases. 01:44:00 I'm leaning towards #2. 01:44:04 But I'm entirely open. 01:44:41 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:52 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:45:30 EOVERGENERALIZATION 01:45:40 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 01:46:01 Please submit queries about more specific domains than `procedures that involve sockets and may involve non-blocking operations'. 01:47:08 -!- sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:30 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@113.sub-75-212-205.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 01:49:13 foof` [n=user@118-021-204-069.jp.fiberbit.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:52 Okay, so...accept(2), write(2), read(2), recv(2), &c. 01:50:01 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:50:17 What does non-blocking have to do with this? 01:51:22 Riastradh: For procedures that wouldn't error out with WOULDBLOCK, I'm not as interested in whether or not I should raise the condition. 01:51:53 In other words, if a function could error with EWOULDBLOCK, should it raise a condition or do something else? 01:51:55 You should block, and have a separate procedure that returns a CML-style `event' for use in a CML-like system. 01:52:38 Sorry, what does CML mean here? 01:52:47 Concurrent ML 01:53:07 *arcfide* raises an eyebrow. 01:53:16 I'm not quite familiar with the approach you are suggesting. Could you clarify? 01:53:26 perdiy [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #scheme 01:53:38 01:54:21 Riastradh: If I understand you correctly, you want the Scheme analogue of say, accept(2), to always block, even if the socket on which it is accepting is a non-blocking socket? 01:54:34 -!- foof [n=user@118-021-204-074.jp.fiberbit.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:43 Given an event, or rendezvous in some formulations of Concurrent ML (e.g., ), you can wait for it, or you can combine it with other events to create a composite event that will wait for the first of its component events, and so on. 01:54:52 No. 01:55:14 I want the analogue of accept(2) to return an object describing the action of waiting for and accepting a connection. 01:55:26 And I want a separate routine that actually does this waiting. 01:56:38 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:57:43 Here's an example of what one might do with that: 01:59:03 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:59:32 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:59:58 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:30 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:01:49 Riastradh pasted "example of accept(2) and CML" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86475 02:03:29 (Oops, SYNCHRONIZE-RENDEZVOUS should be spelled just `SYNCHRONIZE'. 02:03:30 ) 02:05:20 Riastradh: That seems like I'm mixing up a higher level interface of accepting sockets with basic sockets. 02:06:33 What does SYNCHRONIZE do? It just waits until one of the rendezvous objects is ready and then serves over it? 02:06:56 I don't know what `serves over it' means, but I think the answer is `yes'. 02:07:01 *arcfide* grabs some food. 02:09:30 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:30 -!- perdiy is now known as perdix 02:14:37 Riastradh: What if someone doesn't want to use non-blocking sockets and wants to just block for the connection? 02:15:09 I don't want to go through the overhead and additional work of having to use SYNCHRONIZE. 02:15:23 (define (accept-connection socket) (synchronize (socket-acceptance-rendezvous socket))) 02:15:26 Easy. 02:16:00 That requires two different functions. 02:16:15 (Under the covers, the Scheme system (I hope!) has already made the socket a non-blocking file descriptor.) 02:16:18 Yes. So? 02:16:46 Riastradh: You don't think it's taking things a little too far out from the original sockets API? 02:16:50 No. 02:16:56 It's fine if someone wants to write something like this on top of the basic interface. 02:17:21 Pray explain how to do that. 02:17:28 I'm not inclined to like the idea of the system breaking the socket down to a non-blocking socket if the user asked for a blocking one. 02:18:00 I'm not inclined to like the idea of one I/O operation blocking all the other Scheme threads because the author of the sockets library didn't want the underlying file descriptor to be marked non-blocking. 02:18:27 Riastradh: Then set your sockets to non-blocking. 02:18:41 How the file descriptor is marked, to the operating system, affects only how the Scheme system communicates with the operating system. It need not affect the behaviour of Scheme procedures, except inasmuch as it causes problems with threads. 02:18:54 Yes, as I just suggested! All file descriptors that Scheme deals with should be non-blocking. 02:19:02 That's an implementation detail, though. 02:20:33 Blocking should be a property of the operation you are performing, not of the argument you pass to that operation. 02:20:43 Why not just convert the socket to a port then and let the Scheme system handle it that way? 02:21:09 The Scheme system can then use its non-blocking or blocking operations on it. 02:21:18 What do ports have to do with this? 02:22:12 Riastradh: The sockets api associates the blocking property with a socket. Would it really be better to change this and deviate fromt he basic sockets workflow that everyone knows? 02:22:21 Yes. 02:22:24 Any other questions? 02:23:27 Nobody actually writes code that assumes neither blocking nor non-blocking sockets. Associating that property with the file descriptor itself is merely a cheap convenience to reduce the number of times you have to say whether you want blocking or non-blocking sockets in system call arguments. 02:23:45 (What I just said applies to any file descriptors, not just to sockets.) 02:24:05 As for implementing the above with a basic interface, one could make socket-acceptance-rendezvous by taking the socket, setting it to non-blocking, and then returning the rendezvous object on it. The internal accept command could be used in conjuction with the means to poll the socket for readiness. 02:24:21 Wrong. SOCKET-ACCEPTANCE-RENDEZVOUS, or any rendezvous-construction procedure, should have no side effects. 02:24:57 There is no reason to use blocking file descriptors in a general Scheme system. 02:25:40 Why not? They work fine for me for plenty of cases. Is all code really designed only around non-blocking sockets? 02:27:01 I understand that a single threaded system wouldn't have much use for them. 02:27:18 Blocking file descriptors make sense only when your entire OS thread is focussed upon a single I/O operation at a time. This is practically never the case in general Scheme systems, particularly not those that support user-level threads (whether or not they take advantage of OS threads for multiprocesing). 02:27:20 And for that you would want some non-blocking way of handling sockets. 02:27:24 Multiprocessing, even. 02:29:29 Chez may have an injective map from Scheme threads to POSIX threads, but that is only a limitation of Chez. In other Scheme systems, such as Gambit, Chicken, MIT Scheme, Scheme48, and probably PLT Scheme, any OS-blocking I/O operation, i.e. a system call that blocks on a file descriptor marked blocking, starves other concurrent I/O operations as long as the thread timer's quantum -- if there is more than one thread runnable so t 02:29:46 Sadly. 02:29:56 This is because other concurrent I/O operations may be running in different Scheme threads but a common OS thread. 02:30:40 (And again, this is independent of whether the Scheme system takes advantage of OS threads. Of course, if it has an injective map from Scheme threads to OS threads, then it has considerably limited the flexibility of Scheme threads.) 02:30:44 Riastradh: Yes, most Scheme systems don't have a nice mapping from Scheme threads to OS Threads. I fail to see how having such a map is a limitation. I would think that it is an useful feature. 02:30:57 You misunderstand. 02:31:34 An *injective* map from Scheme threads to OS threads means that there are no more Scheme threads than there are OS threads. Since OS threads are a much heavier-weight and scarcer resource than user-level threads, this significantly reduces the flexibility of Scheme threads. 02:32:16 Riastradh: Nothing precludes the two from existing together, right? 02:32:17 If Chez has an injective map from Scheme threads to OS threads, then I bet you can't spawn a hundred thousand Scheme threads without running out of memory or other OS limits. 02:33:11 Of course nothing precludes such coexistence. But as soon as more than one Scheme thread may share a common OS thread, blocking I/O operations at the system call level can starve other threads of I/O operations and reduce the I/O throughput of the program. 02:33:18 Riastradh: If you want to create lot's of concurrent or green threaded type threads, you don't use the native threads, you use engines and timers, a low-level interface, to be sure, but one that can easily be used to construct the appropriate green threading system. 02:33:45 Riastradh: Yes, of course. 02:34:18 Hence, Scheme code should not perform blocking I/O operations at the system call level. 02:34:28 This means marking all file descriptors non-blocking. 02:34:50 Or at least it means using POSIX AIO operations, or something similar, rather than read(2) and write(2) and so on. 02:35:12 I see no reason that I shouldn't be allowed to perform a blocking operation if I want to do so, why shouldn't the programmer be expected to know the difference? 02:35:48 Please be careful to distinguish a Scheme procedure that blocks the Scheme thread, from a system call that blocks the system thread. 02:36:06 SYNCHRONIZE is, in fact, a Scheme procedure that blocks the Scheme thread. 02:36:14 This doesn't, however, involve any system calls that block the system thread. 02:36:43 By contrast, accept(2), on a file descriptor marked blocking, is a system call that blocks the system thread. 02:37:06 This starves I/O operations in other Scheme threads that share that system thread. 02:37:46 Yes, obviously. 02:37:58 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:38:23 But so what? If the programmer wants to do that, why not let him? Are you arguing that there is never a case where such a thing could be conceivably desirable? 02:38:25 Scheme procedures that block the Scheme thread are perfectly acceptable, as long as they have analogues that do not. 02:38:58 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:39:40 Pray suggest such a case that the programmer would, first of all, care whether a file descriptor is marked non-blocking (except for the purpose of passing it to foreign code in order to satisfy said foreign code's contract), and second, actually want to starve I/O operations in other Scheme threads. 02:40:40 Riastradh: In a case where starving a single Scheme thread doesn't matter, because native OS threads are doing the other important work, and the programmer may not want to incur the overhead associated with the additional progamming in SYNCHRONIZE and the like. 02:41:19 This is not a matter of starving a single Scheme thread -- this is a matter of preventing I/O from happening in *every*other* Scheme thread. 02:41:47 Sorry, I should say starving a single OS thread, which has only a single Scheme thread in it. It doesn't matter whether it's blocked or not. 02:43:44 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:44:03 I'm looking over this scm-rendezvous stuff right now. 02:45:14 The overhead of using SYNCHRONIZE for a single rendezvous like that is extremely minimal -- it involves a few procedure calls and the construction of a couple of closures, and, in Scheme48's case, a queue and an atomic transaction. 02:45:53 So let me see if I get this straight: 02:46:19 For the case that doesn't involve blocking, that is; for the case that does involve blocking, you're waiting -- you have nothing to do -- so spending a little bit of time to suspend the Scheme thread can't matter anyway. 02:49:54 You suggest that sockets not have the blocking/non-blocking association. Instead, operations like accept(2) should return events, do you suggest the same thing for recv(2) and sendto(2) analogues? 02:50:00 Yes. 02:50:41 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:51:57 By the way, if you really are concerned about the performance of one-off operations like these, and you have a lower-level I/O multiplexer than the rendezvous system, then by all means use that rather than defining (accept socket) to be (synchronize (accept-rendezvous socket)) -- but make sure that you don't pass blocking file descriptors to system calls and thereby prevent I/O operations in other Scheme threads. 02:52:28 Riastradh: What then, in your mind, are the basic functions necessary and sufficient for a sockets library? procedure for: creating, binding, listening, accepting, connecting, closing/shutdown, and sending/receiving; anything else? 02:52:49 Various socket options. 02:53:03 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176222047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:03 Name resolution. 02:53:19 Okay, yes, an abstraction on socket addresses. 02:53:31 And socket options, yes, but not all of them, only some of them? 02:53:37 Most of them, if not all. 02:53:52 You said you didn't want the blocking options to be available. 02:53:59 That's not a socket option. 02:54:04 That's a file descriptor flag. 02:54:48 -!- yome [n=usah@70.48.77.153] has quit ["thanks for playing"] 02:54:55 Riastradh: A socket is a file descriptor at the low level, so...what options do you mean? 02:55:05 getsockopt, setsockopt 02:55:49 Okay. 02:55:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:56:26 So, assuming that I want to allow your rendezvous multiplexing, as well as, say, a libev interface, how would I structure the sockets component to be independent of these two interfaces? 02:56:50 libev is how you might implement rendezvous. 02:57:50 The suggestion you mention above seems to indicate that you are thinking of something lower level than 'accept-rendezvous' being available. 02:57:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:58:07 What other accept function other than 'accept-rendezvous' do you suggest? 02:59:20 I'm trying to get this library down to the basic components that can be used to build any of the higher-level interfaces that people want, while still being semi useful in its own right. 02:59:38 Well, that's hard. 03:00:08 In that case, you'll probably want to provide a non-blocking-only operation, and expose the file descriptor, so that it can be stored in an I/O multiplexer. 03:01:02 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-110-136.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:47 I'm already planning to expose the descriptor, but what operation do you mean? 03:03:17 I mean an operation that invokes accept(2) and immediately tells whether there was a connection ready or not, without waiting. 03:03:34 If there was none ready, then the file descriptor can be put in the I/O multiplexor, and the thread can be blocked. 03:03:56 So, make all the procedures default to non-blocking? 03:04:11 Not a `default'. 03:04:27 Provide non-blocking operations. 03:04:27 Alright, alright, you're saying the only operation. 03:04:58 Operations that sometimes block and sometimes return EWOULDBLOCK depending on their inputs are confusing. 03:05:11 dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.89.151] has joined #scheme 03:05:55 So, you would want the sockets to be non-blocking, and this would necessitate that all the basic operations also be non-blocking, and using these might suffice for the basic foundation? 03:06:24 Would you want the accept procedure to return the real result if it was immediately available? 03:06:43 (1) Yes. (2) Yes. 03:07:35 Okay, so, actually, we do agree to some extent on the behavior of such functions. You would want them to return something that indicated whether there was input ready or not, rather, than, say, raise a condition to that effect. 03:07:46 mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:05 Yes, because blocking is an unexceptional situation. 03:08:10 And then, we both agree that in practice you would build something on top of this. 03:08:13 Agreed. 03:08:22 Phew! Finally, some consensus. 03:08:33 I guess I could have made that clearer at the beginning. 03:08:45 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:52 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176209120.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:01 What is not acceptable is Scheme procedures that pass blocking file descriptors to blocking system calls. 03:09:23 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:23 Riastradh: So, what if someone hands the accept function a socket that they have purposefully set to blocking? 03:10:39 How have they done that? Why has Scheme gone near that file descriptor? 03:11:05 -!- mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:20 Riastradh: In order to enable something like rendezvous or libev or some other multiplexing, the file descriptor will most likely need to be exposed, then, someone could do something with it, like fcntl it in a funny way. 03:11:24 Like setting it to blocking. 03:12:09 Obviously this wouldn't be normal operation, but exposing the descriptors to enable extensions in this direction could result in that kind of *mistake*. 03:12:10 Well, don't do that. 03:12:26 Don't do what? Expose the descriptors? 03:12:35 Don't mark them blocking. 03:12:43 Well, sure. 03:12:53 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:09 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:13:41 Riastradh: Is there much documentation on this Rendezvous thing? 03:13:53 03:14:13 I assuume that the better approach to porting it would be to take the s48 code and start reading it? 03:14:18 eno__ [n=eno@70.137.157.39] has joined #scheme 03:14:25 for Scheme48's version of it. 03:14:37 You may find it easier to start with the MIT Scheme code. 03:15:17 Particularly if Chez has a notion of disabling interrupts and suspending the current thread, rather than a notion of optimistic concurrency and Scheme48's somewhat elaborate system of blocking. 03:16:11 What are the basic useful features that scm-rendezvous uses? 03:16:33 ? 03:16:51 Well, it uses procedures, and numbers, and records, and... 03:17:14 Chez works on a signal/interrupt model and has a critical-section form. 03:17:31 Riastradh: Okay, beyond the normally available standard R5RS libraries. 03:17:46 You mentioned enabling and disabling interrupts, but is there anything else? 03:18:20 What are the standard exports, all the rendezvous-* packages? 03:18:57 Only what is listed on the `Scheme Compatibility Interfaces' pages of s48-interfaces.scm and s48-packages.scm. 03:19:08 Sorry, that was the answer to your first question, about what the rendezvous library needs. 03:19:25 The answer to your second question is `yes'. 03:20:15 Riastradh: Is there a better library than yours for this work? :-) 03:20:54 Well, there's one that's better at being in SML than in Scheme, there's another that's better at being hard to understand and harder to port, and I bet there are more that are `better' in many such ways! 03:22:09 I'm not aware of any good introductory material on CML. 03:22:56 Well, if this is a good abstraction for multiplexing and that sort of thing, then I'm interested in it, since I wanted something like this anyways. 03:23:46 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 03:23:50 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:10 It is a good abstraction for that, although I wish that someone, such as me, would write a better introduction to it, better than, e.g., . 03:25:06 For example, it would be nice if someone would write an introduction whose average word length didn't exceed about eighteen billion. 03:26:30 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:27:49 Semaphores in this thing? 03:27:51 Hrm. 03:28:05 semaphore.scm is only an example in my CML implementation. 03:28:13 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:28:15 It demonstrates many aspects of CML. 03:28:24 Okay, so that's not really a part of the library. 03:28:52 It may be helpful to get an initial overview of CML, actually. 03:29:17 In fact, I think that's an excellent idea to try. Please read semaphore.scm, guessing at what you don't understand and asking about what doesn't make sense. 03:29:28 Are all the other components necessary or really essential to what the library does? 03:29:40 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:30:04 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:30:24 rendezvous.scm is the only really essential part. channel.scm, mailbox.scm, and placeholder.scm are examples of using the low-level interface to build primitive rendezvous. semaphore.scm is an example of using the high-level interface to combine channels, mailboxes, and placeholders. 03:31:02 But reading rendezvous.scm is probably not helpful unless you want to know *exactly* how it works internally. 03:31:45 (And even in that case, writing rendezvous.scm is much more helpful than just reading it. In fact, that is why I have my own implementation of this. But I don't think that writing rendezvous.scm should be necessary to understand the ideas of CML and how to use it.) 03:31:47 Well, I'm mostly interested in what a Chez version of this library would look like. 03:32:12 It would look like the scm-rendezvous directory with some files named `chez-*.scm'. 03:32:21 *cough*. 03:32:23 -!- jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:24 Erm.... 03:33:04 Erm? 03:33:22 Maybe. 03:33:29 Why not? 03:35:15 Try it! It should be fun -- I found porting it to MIT Scheme fun. 03:36:05 The only tricky part is the machinery of suspensions. 03:38:30 Eh, okay, maybe. :-) Maybe I'll just write one myself. 03:39:12 CML has theoretical grounding and multiple independent implementations. Please consider using it unless you are willing to invest a *lot* of effort into the theory, practice, and design of concurrent systems. 03:39:34 It also has at least one implementation that is very easy to port from one Scheme to another. 03:39:40 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:19 Porting it to Chez should take an hour or two, I imagine, not including time needed to understand Chez's thread system. 03:41:25 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:42:04 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:42:39 In fact, you can probably copy most of the code from mit-compat.scm, changing only the definitions of {ENTER,EXIT}-CRITICAL-REGION to use Chez's critical regions, SUSPEND to suspend threads how Chez does, %REVIVE to revive threads how Chez does, and MAKE-TIME-RENDEZVOUS to arrange timer events how Chez does. 03:43:16 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:44:25 "a *lot* of effort" is an understatement. 03:44:41 Probably the first two can be: (define (enter-critical-region body) ((critical-section (body 'DUMMY)))) (define (exit-critical-section token continuation) continuation) 03:44:49 Sorry, EXIT-CRITICAL-REGION, not EXIT-CRITICAL-SECTION. 03:46:01 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:46:15 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 03:46:38 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:46:58 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:41 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:48:43 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@113.sub-75-212-205.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:48:53 An hour or two is a very pessimistic estimate, for that matter. Simply adapting mit-compat.scm for Chez should take ten minutes. 03:50:16 -!- duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:20 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 03:51:06 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:51:28 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:52:07 Riastradh: Well, I'm also interested in understanding it a bit. I don't want it to feel like it was just a bunch of stuff that doesn't take advantage of any of Chez's features. 03:52:28 What features of Chez would it fail to take advantage of? 03:52:41 Riastradh: I don't know how it works yet, so I wouldn't know. ;-) 03:52:50 Maybe none. 03:53:11 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:13 I don't see any interesting features at that might cover what CML does. All I see is that Chez's built-in condition variables and mutexes are unlikely to lend themselves to rendezvous for acquiring a mutex or waiting for a condition. 03:55:53 Heck, you might as well just port it in order to have something to play with and to write code to compare against whatever Chez provides, and then you'll already have a Chez port of it! 03:56:27 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:56:36 By the way, there are a few reasons why my implementation of CML exists even though there also exist Scheme48's and PLT Scheme's: 03:56:47 I'd be interested in that. 03:56:52 1. I wasn't aware of PLT Scheme's at the time. Maybe it hadn't begun to exist when I wrote mine. 03:57:29 How would I use rendezvous to compare against what Chez provides if Chez doesn't provide something like Rendezvous? 03:57:40 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:17 2. PLT Scheme conflates rendezvous with various kinds of objects, requiring needless genericity that in the CML operations. For example, you can pass an input port to SYNC (the analogue of SYNCHRONIZE), which will return when there is input ready on the input port. This doesn't add much over just introducing a procedure INPUT-PORT-READINESS-RENDEZVOUS or something; also, what happens if the input port is also an output port? 03:58:35 3. Scheme48's implementation didn't exist per se; there was an implementation for scsh, but that didn't run on recent versions of Scheme48. 03:59:34 4. The implementation for scsh was not especially portable, and I found it hard to follow because it was more transliterated than translated from the original SML code. My CML implementation is written in a style much more natural to Scheme. 04:01:05 Hrm. 04:01:41 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 04:02:03 If I recall correctly, I started by porting the scsh implementation to Scheme48, but quickly found myself changing much the code to make it fit better in Scheme, and being frustrated by how hard it would be to port again to another Scheme system. So I started afresh. 04:04:31 -!- egosh [n=Miranda@94.242.158.114] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:09:16 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 04:09:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:10:47 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:13 By the way, arcfide, I was perfectly serious about reading semaphore.scm and asking questions to get an idea of CML. 04:14:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:16:04 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:18:07 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:22:36 Riastradh: Having that generic dispatch is extremely convenient, since `sync' is *very* often used with non-event values. Probably much more frequently than uses with event values. 04:22:59 As for input ports that are also output ports -- they don't exist in PLT. 04:23:30 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@26.sub-75-213-85.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 04:25:43 eli, the generic dispatch may be used often, but that doesn't make it necessary -- it just makes the idiom more convenient. Personally I disagree that the convenience is worth the mechanism, but that's a separate issue -- for a portable implementation, I didn't have a portable, general generic dispatch system to use. 04:26:28 (And, incidentally, MIT Scheme does have input ports that are also output ports, so generic dispatch wouldn't help there (even though it does have a good generic dispatch system). Whether that is a good thing is neither here nor there!) 04:28:42 Riastradh: Yes, it's not necessary in the sense that it is easy to layer the dispatch. But that was before the time where such solutions (doing the layering in scheme and exposing the wrapped function only) became more common. 04:29:06 In any case, the only point I had was not about the implementation but about its usage. 04:29:30 Riastradh: Unfortunately, I don't have the time at the moment to work with semaphores and play with it. I'll probably bug you later this week though. :-) 04:29:31 (As for MIT having IO ports, that would kind of spoil the party...) 04:31:30 -!- foof` [n=user@118-021-204-069.jp.fiberbit.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:14 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 04:38:57 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:38:57 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:38:57 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:38:57 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:38:57 -!- TimMc [n=timmc@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:38:57 -!- Piratero [n=user@c-24-7-64-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:38:57 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit 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irc.freenode.net] 05:49:14 *zbigniew* suddenly comes across a README for "MIT Scheme 7.4.1 (alpha) for OS/2" on an old backup CD 05:49:19 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:50:04 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- laynor [n=laynor@93.107.159.53] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176222047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:50:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit 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ASau [n=user@host218-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:49:23 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Success] 06:52:08 chandler, yikes! I wanted to paste some Git lossage in lisppaste, and instead I got some lisppaste lossage: `Error encountered: #' 06:54:30 Could any Git experts enlighten me as to what have I done wrong to be scolded so thoroughly as in ? Sum total of the Git operations I have performed: git clone ssh://foo/bar/baz.git repository; git clone repository work; cd work; git add ...; git commit; git push 06:58:47 I just realized that I *might* have screwed something up by attempting the `git commit' several times: each time while in Emacs, I hit C-g, as I often do, and that caused Emacs and Git both to spontaneously terminate, leaving my terminal in a bogus state. 06:58:52 (Go figure!) 07:03:17 -!- boringwall [n=boringwa@c-68-54-140-150.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:07:23 Riastradh: what, did emacs' git mode bind something to C-g?! preposterous! 07:07:50 No, I think Git read the key before it got to Emacs, or something. 07:09:10 bizarre; well, i guess that's consistent with linus' twain directives: that "git should be fast and stupid" 07:10:18 s/consistent/not inconsistent/ 07:10:35 Writing a commit message for the fourth time... 07:11:18 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-obvlnktkfjmbdkhp] has joined #scheme 07:11:28 (very carefully not typing C-g in Emacs) 07:11:43 And Git still scolds me. 07:12:05 What did I do wrong??? 07:13:55 I didn't even show Git the bing-goes-the-innernet video; why is it angry at me? 07:14:20 This is the nth time I have heard `git reset --hard' as the solution to a problem that I don't even understand. 07:15:33 The first time I heard of `git reset --hard' was when Nikodemus Siivola lost a day's worth of work on SBCL by running it. That made me VERY reticent ever to use that command... 07:15:57 (Not to mention that it sounds scary in the first place.) 07:18:46 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:19:18 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:21:10 -!- sjamaan_ is now known as sjamaan 07:34:46 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:45:52 git reset --fluffy wouldn't sound as badass. 07:46:51 I don't want it to sound badass...I want it to do revision control! But I have yet to persuade it to do that. 07:52:30 codeswing [n=codeswin@unaffiliated/codeswing] has joined #scheme 07:52:35 test 07:52:36 hey anybody ever read 'The little Schemer' book 07:52:53 There are some folks here who have, codeswing. I, however, am not one of them. 07:53:20 I am going to buy this from amazon, I live in india .. it is costing $27 07:53:23 should I buy it 07:54:29 Well, if it appeals to you, and you are comfortable with the style (it is strictly a Socratic dialogue), sure -- some people found it very valuable to understand Scheme and recursive ideas. Personally I didn't care much for its style, but that's just me. 07:55:46 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@7.sub-75-214-91.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 07:56:04 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=766664 07:56:40 Grab The Little Schemer and a notebook. Do all exercises in the notebook with a pencil, without a computer. 07:56:40 It'll make you a better Python programmer for sure. 08:00:55 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:03:49 codeswing: currently reading that book. 08:04:02 Leonidas: you? 08:04:22 how is it? 08:04:49 codeswing: the first time I tried it, I failed to understand it. 08:05:01 amazon is saying to me Thanks for your order! 08:05:03 Now that I somehow understand recursion, it is quite enjoyable. 08:05:45 But ok, I got the little schemer and the seasoned schemer from the library and bought the reasoned schemer myself. 08:06:15 *Leonidas* likes the dialog style a lot. 08:07:50 okay cool 08:08:04 if there was any pdf copy, I might have bought it 08:08:31 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 08:08:56 *Leonidas* hasn't found any pdf copy 08:09:25 which is surprising, given the fact that about any book can be found as ebook on the internet 08:15:28 Leonidas: yeah .. this book is an exception 08:15:35 it's not available as ebook for purchase 08:17:57 didn't mean it this way.. well, nevermind. 08:21:17 Leonidas: it's not available as pdf in google too 08:21:26 and in pirate sites :D 08:21:54 :) 08:23:01 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:46 codeswing: http://xivilization.net/hg/sandbox/file/tip/little.scm <- here's some of the code from the book 08:27:57 (unfortunately, the highlighting is a bit broken) 08:28:39 Leonidas: hmm okay 08:31:17 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleh067.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-109.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 08:37:32 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["brb"] 08:48:04 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 08:48:10 what are the downsides to plt scheme? 08:53:09 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 08:58:14 -!- dstorrs [n=user@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:20:01 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 09:31:25 HG` [n=HG@xdsleh067.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:33:44 lucas_ [n=lucas@85.110.139.143] has joined #scheme 09:34:43 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 11:56:08 -!- abbyz [n=adkulkar@unaffiliated/abbyz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:58:33 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:59:06 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@7.sub-75-214-91.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:00:13 lisptastic [n=user@adsl-234-148-210.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 12:00:22 Riastradh: it seems like the remote repository is not bare, i.e. it has a branch checked out. You're pushing to that branch, potentially pulling the rug from under Mr foo bar's feet. 12:04:08 If the remote is not used locally, but only as a server, it should be bare. Otherwise you shouldn't push, but let them pull from you or send them your commits formatted as a patch (by email). 12:04:41 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:07:28 -!- codeswing [n=codeswin@unaffiliated/codeswing] has quit ["leaving ..."] 12:07:44 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 12:09:33 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:01 -!- anon_ [n=anon@86.88.59.170] has left #scheme 12:13:30 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:20:01 -!- lisptastic [n=user@adsl-234-148-210.bgk.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 12:22:44 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176222072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 12:36:15 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:47:42 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:51:44 foof [n=user@118-021-204-069.jp.fiberbit.net] has joined #scheme 12:52:23 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176222047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:56:45 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:57:25 merus [n=merus@pal-175-116.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 12:58:40 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 13:01:35 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 13:04:04 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:07:10 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:40 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 13:08:41 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:12 Riastradh: was that over the XML-RPC interface? I'll have to check where errors are going on that; it's possible that S-XML-RPC is doing something stupid. The actual error was caused by confusion induced by the IRC server disappearing. 13:17:39 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:21:06 forcer [n=forcer@e177158090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 13:21:54 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:29:35 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 13:31:02 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 13:37:59 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.51.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:39:02 -!- ASau [n=user@host218-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:27 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 13:54:21 jao [n=jao@214.Red-88-6-174.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:54:46 -!- foof [n=user@118-021-204-069.jp.fiberbit.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:43 Hrm, is there a truncating function that takes an inexact number and produces an integer? 13:56:51 Yes. Can you guess the name? 13:57:22 My initial guess was floor 13:57:39 And does `floor' do what you want? 13:58:00 Well, it appears to produce an inexact value that happens to be an integer. 13:58:31 (But does not have integer type) 14:00:32 r5rs floor 14:00:32 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_302 14:00:36 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/botqph 14:00:44 macr0 [n=vista@71.41.179.131] has joined #scheme 14:00:47 rudybot: eval (integer? 1.0) 14:00:48 p1dzkl: your r5rs sandbox is ready 14:00:48 p1dzkl: ; Value: #t 14:01:11 Ah, it is called inexact->exact. 14:01:46 ASau [n=user@host218-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 14:02:22 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-179.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:05:01 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 14:16:32 pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 14:18:23 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:42:06 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:43:19 -!- macr0 [n=vista@71.41.179.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:51 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 14:52:01 -!- ASau [n=user@host218-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:52:17 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:25 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:53:34 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 14:58:10 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:16 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:05:15 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 15:09:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:28 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 15:10:46 macr0 [n=vista@71.41.179.131] has joined #scheme 15:17:31 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:35 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-160.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:17:46 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:18:19 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:16 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@rrcs-24-39-188-75.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 15:23:10 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:44 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-zyltlstrthahaxzx] has joined #scheme 15:26:38 cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has joined #scheme 15:26:46 -!- cornucopic [n=r00t@202.3.77.134] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:09 Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 15:27:16 -!- Adrinael_ [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:28 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 15:30:45 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:03 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:38 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 15:40:20 chandler, yes, that was over the XML-RPC interface. 15:42:33 p1dzkl, sorry, you're using terms I don't understand: `the remote repository is not bare, i.e. it has a branch checked out', because I didn't do anything interesting to the remote repository. Here's what I did to make the remote repository, called stage: git clone ssh://foo/bar/baz.git stage; then here's what I did to make the repository where I made changes which I tried to push to stage: git clone stage work. 15:44:42 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 15:44:55 codeswing [n=codeswin@unaffiliated/codeswing] has joined #scheme 15:47:26 -!- codeswing [n=codeswin@unaffiliated/codeswing] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:46 codeswing [n=codeswin@unaffiliated/codeswing] has joined #scheme 15:47:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ntmepxdqkeqrggow] has joined #scheme 15:51:42 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:53:34 Riastradh: if you plan to push to a repository, then you should pass "--bare" to the clone command 15:54:07 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-149.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:56:38 Why? And where does the tutorial, or the workflows introduction, or the Savannah documentation, or the CVS migration documentation, or any introductory material explain that? 15:57:42 ...ooh, I see that gitcvs-migration(7) does explain that, in the description of how to create a repository for others to use. But it doesn't say anything about how this is related to pushing. 15:59:11 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.51.146] has joined #scheme 16:07:19 Gosh, it's not just C-g, but also M-6, M-9, C-x, or f that screws Emacs under Git. 16:08:50 incubot: Version-numbering my source files by hand was good enough for me, it should be good enough for anyone. 16:08:54 It involves an addressing scheme for numbering the items in a sequence (lines in a code file, characters in text, frames in a movie, or whatever) that is independent of which changes have been applied 16:09:06 :-O 16:09:44 lol 16:09:48 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdsleh067.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:50 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 16:10:42 Argh! 16:10:54 HG` [n=HG@xdsleh067.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:11:20 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:55 So I nuked stage and made stage.git using `git clone --bare', and then made work and build using `git clone stage.git work' and `git clone stage.git build', and then added and committed a change in work and pushed it to stage.git. But then when I ran `git pull' in build, I got: 16:12:03 error: Ref refs/remotes/origin/master is at f2b42a44bdb4ba11b97b4d7360fc1031700ba8c3 but expected f65896e1931fe513858c82f02d42596f43141e08 16:12:06 ! f65896e..da79683 master -> origin/master (unable to update local ref) 16:12:14 offby1, help! 16:13:24 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:13:55 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:18 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:19:31 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-129-138.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:31:28 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:53 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:36:27 scheme also has macros isn't that correct? But the macros are a little different than in common lisp? 16:36:52 Yes, and yes. Scheme macros are not intrinsically broken like Common Lisp macros. 16:37:31 They are called syntax, too 16:38:56 scheme macros are called 'syntax'? 16:39:17 Riastradh, in your opinion how are common lisp macros 'broken' and how does scheme differ in order to avoid that? 16:39:49 Scheme macros are called macros. Because their use constitutes new syntactic forms, the operators used to introduce macros are called DEFINE-SYNTAX, LET-SYNTAX, and LETREC-SYNTAX. 16:40:11 Those are called operators? 16:40:12 emma, Common Lisp macros do not preserve lexical scope. 16:40:14 *Jafet* spins 16:40:34 Scheme macros do preserve lexical scope. 16:40:40 when a car is not a car it turns into a driveway 16:41:14 synx: You butchered that. 16:41:22 Just, y'know, lettin' you know. 16:41:34 specifically hygenic scheme macros preserve lexical scope? 16:42:15 Yes, synx. Some broken Scheme systems fail to support hygienic macros, but that's a bug in the implementations, not in the language. 16:42:54 when is a door not a door? when it is open 16:43:06 No I mean some scheme macros are deliberately unhygenic, but the hygenic ones as long as the system supports it, preserve lexical scope. 16:43:11 Im sure that PLT supports the right kind of macro. 16:43:18 Yes, emma. 16:43:19 then it's a jar! 16:44:53 incubot, make like a tree and get out of here 16:44:56 that's a huge tree 16:47:40 That's as funny as a screen door on a battleship. 16:49:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:25 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 16:51:51 I believe it's an oversimplification to say that Scheme macros preserve lexical scope. They follow a certain set of rules about when and where bindings can be introduced, but the results can be surprisingly unlexical. One could be forgiven for assuming that, for instance, in (lambda (x) (my-syntax (lambda (x) x))), the innermost `x' must refer to the immediately enclosing `lambda' binding, but that might not actually be the case. 16:52:46 Nor, in a top-level expression such as (cons it (aif x it)), do the `it's have to refer to the same binding. 16:54:47 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 17:01:08 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:24 lexical scope and bindings are two concepts that are so abstruse. 17:03:19 why? 17:04:25 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 17:04:43 assuming aif is hygenic, (cons it (aif x it)) would both have the same "it" though I think. 17:04:58 No, that's not true. 17:05:57 The aif could expand to a let and use the inner if as a new identifier that shadows the outer one 17:06:10 oh, huh... 17:06:15 s/inner if/inner it/ 17:07:14 (syntax-rules ((aif x it) (let ((it x)) it))) 17:08:07 I forgot a () in there 17:08:12 That's the essence of the idea, though it takes some work to handle cases like (aif x (lambda () it)), or other arbitrary code in the consequent form. 17:08:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023 17:08:28 rudybot: init http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023/raw 17:08:30 chandler: your "http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023/raw" sandbox is ready 17:08:46 rudybot: eval (aif 42 it) 17:08:46 chandler: error: eval:1:0: aif: bad syntax in: (aif 42 it) 17:08:50 ... 17:08:55 rudybot: eval (aif 42 it #f) 17:08:55 chandler: ; Value: 42 17:08:56 chandler: ; stdout: "42" 17:09:09 Heh. Delayed stdout strikes again! 17:11:02 *sjamaan* studies the code 17:21:04 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-116.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:06 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:34:01 karme [n=user@static.180.75.40.188.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 17:34:23 egosh [n=Miranda@94.242.158.114] has joined #scheme 17:39:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-4-109.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:41:56 Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 17:42:13 Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:45 tagac [n=user@119.37.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:13:19 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:24:12 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:30:26 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:34:44 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 18:35:19 Ha, I have beaten guard into submission 18:35:26 *leppie* 1 - guard 0 18:39:26 User_ [n=User@user-d2c6c9b5d1.student.iastate.edu] has joined #scheme 18:42:08 -!- User_ [n=User@user-d2c6c9b5d1.student.iastate.edu] has left #scheme 18:46:30 ejs [n=eugen@98-19-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:55:15 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:35 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 19:02:47 chandler: http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023#1 maybe? 19:02:53 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-obvlnktkfjmbdkhp] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:02:57 rudybot: init http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023,1/raw 19:02:59 synx: your "http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023,1/raw" sandbox is ready 19:03:32 rudybot: eval (aif (and (= 0 (random 2)) 23) it (+ it 19) #f) 19:03:32 synx: ; Value: 42 19:04:21 rudybot: eval (aif (and (= 0 (random 2)) 23) it (+ it 19) #f) 19:04:22 synx: ; Value: 42 19:06:36 synx: Hm? 19:06:46 synx: Your paste has nothing to do with what I was trying to do 19:07:25 I was reading it wrong then. What were you trying to do? 19:07:55 rudybot: init 19:07:57 chandler: your "http://paste.lisp.org/display/86023/raw" sandbox is ready 19:08:41 rudybot: eval (let ((x 42)) (aif x (begin (+ 1 it)) #f)) 19:08:42 chandler: ; Value: 43 19:08:43 chandler: ; stdout: "42" 19:09:04 synx: Note the lack of a specific parameter to the `aif' for the variable it should bind. 19:09:09 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:09:57 so... what, delayed evaluation? 19:10:30 ... No. 19:10:59 Well yeah, but you define it in define-groveler...? 19:11:37 `define-groveler' is a utility which extracts the `it' for purposes of binding. 19:11:50 `it' is a literal to the `grovel-it' macro. 19:12:26 I mean, define-groveler defines grovel-it which defines the parameter for aif. 19:12:27 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/freenode/x-zyltlstrthahaxzx] has quit [] 19:12:56 right 19:13:44 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-129-138.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:15:14 rudybot: eval (let ((it 1)) (let-syntax ((aif (syntax-rules () ((_ test conseq alt) (let ((v test)) (if v (grovel-it conseq (bind-1 v conseq) conseq) alt)))))) (cons it (aif 2 it #f)))) 19:15:15 chandler: ; Value: {1 . 1} 19:15:23 ... Yikes. That's not what I wanted. 19:15:36 The groveler'd have to be in the let-syntax form there; that'd get a bit hairy. Oops. 19:16:09 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:26 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:41 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 19:53:34 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.35.247] has joined #scheme 20:07:05 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:23 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-145-223.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 20:09:44 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:04 masm1 [n=masm@bl10-4-170.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 20:19:47 -!- masm [n=masm@bl11-77-190.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:59 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:55 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:31:48 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:32:07 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:33:44 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:35:38 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:39:00 chandler: Excellent points. 20:41:25 So, a better definition might be "Hygienic macros cannot introduce bindings from the scope where the macro is called to where it was defined, or vice versa." 20:42:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@98-19-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:28 jao: you around? 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