00:02:46 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 00:03:10 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.87.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:08:42 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 00:15:34 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:17:37 -!- r0bby_ is now known as r0bby 00:18:23 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-252.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:19:23 hello, fellas. i'm trying to write a gdc function in plt scheme. i did it like this: http://pastebin.com/m3a998db0 . however, in this example, x has to be greater than y. i wanted to do it in some way that makes (gdc 7 3) the same as (gdc 3 7) 00:19:35 something like, making x = max(x,y) and y = min(x,y) 00:19:37 any hints? 00:24:53 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.3.122] has joined #scheme 00:25:10 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:37 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:26:23 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.26.65] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:38 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:36:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:40:57 steiger_ : check if `x' is lesser than `y', and swap in that case ? 00:41:18 ski: yes, but how to swap?! 00:41:40 call recursively is one way 00:42:20 could you give me an example, ski? 00:43:20 steiger_: you can do the swap as follows: (let* ((temp x) (x y) (y x)) ... ) 00:43:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:43:54 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:43:57 in case you're calling `(mdc 3 7)', `x' (i.e. three) is lesser than `y' (i.e. seven), so you want the same answer as `(mdc 7 3)' will give 00:44:19 so just make sure you call that 00:45:23 oh 00:45:26 ty ski, dstorrs 00:46:06 dstorrs : well, `(let ((x y) (y x)) ...)' would be a simpler way of doing that .. but steiger_ wanted a conditional swap, here 00:46:56 ski: yeah, but his most specific question was "how to do the swap?", so I was answering that 00:47:07 (assuming that s/(y x)/(y temp)/ was what you meant) 00:47:33 oops, yeah. 00:47:40 minor braino 00:49:06 steiger_ : do you get something working ? 00:49:08 ski: you're right that a recursive call is probably simpler. (... (if (< x y) normal-return-value (mdc y x))) 00:51:13 ski: i did it with (cond (> x y)) and (cond (> y x)). not very elegant. but it works. i will try to make thins look nicer later 00:51:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 00:51:39 ski: i'll probably go with your advice about the recursive call, though 00:52:21 if you want, you could paste the new version, for inspection 00:52:23 lisppaste: url 00:52:24 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 00:53:52 (and you should probably make sure your definition also works when both arguments are equal) 00:55:37 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 00:57:30 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 00:58:56 steiger_ pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86277 00:59:03 ski: there it is 00:59:30 jedc [n=jedc@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:05 `(or (> x y) (= x y))' can be written as `(>= x y)' 01:02:45 i'd negate that condition and use `cond' instead of `if', to make it look prettier 01:03:03 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:03:28 .. or one could lift out that test out of the loop, to avoid rechecking 01:05:01 steiger_ : do you see how to do those, if you wanted to ? 01:05:34 ski: i could do #2 with an auxiliary function, right? 01:06:04 yes 01:06:22 (define (mdc x y) (cond [(> y x) (mdc-aux y x)] [else (mdc-aux x y)])) 01:06:40 pretty. 01:07:17 (the `cond' doesn't improve much where there's only one thing to check, though) 01:07:33 yeah, really 01:08:26 you could make `mdc-aux' an internal definition to `mdc' 01:09:31 ski: and how can i do that? 01:10:13 (define (mdc x y) 01:10:26 (define (mdc-aux x y) 01:10:32 ...) 01:10:56 (if (> x y) 01:11:00 i tried that, it complained about two statements inside the first define 01:11:07 ...)) 01:11:41 you are using PLT ? 01:11:45 yes 01:11:55 with HTDP ? 01:12:17 yes 01:13:03 i don't recall if they provide a local definition form in the early teaching languages .. maybe using `local' 01:13:47 i see 01:13:51 i'll just keep reading htdp :) 01:16:30 in the ancient version i just tested, `local' is available in "Intermediate" but not "Beginner" language 01:18:12 xwl_ [n=user@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 01:20:32 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:37 ski: I see. thank you for all your help 01:27:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:58 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:30:26 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 01:32:00 csoy [n=csoy@174-143-208-224.static.cloud-ips.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:44 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:40:30 Riastradh: ping 01:46:27 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 01:49:49 -!- mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:51:16 Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:51:55 -!- haesbaert [i=haesbaer@c925a8c5.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:11 perdiy [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #scheme 01:55:41 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:59:34 -!- Summermute [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:03 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:05:17 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:10:10 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:17 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 02:10:21 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:21 -!- perdiy is now known as perdix 02:20:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:47 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:58 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 02:21:14 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:27:56 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:43 -!- Summermute66 [n=scott@c-68-55-207-173.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:30:42 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:32:24 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:24 jcowan: unping; SYN/ACK 02:35:35 ACK 02:35:53 Not you! 02:35:54 glogic: RST 02:36:02 :`( 02:36:23 wow its' quiet 02:39:19 jcowan, try refreshing your browser cache or something 02:41:51 Riastradh: try turning it off and on again or something 02:44:50 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:46:15 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:35 -!- timchen1a is now known as nasloc__ 02:53:08 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176211172.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:56:59 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:58:54 glogic: Do you need some noise? 03:00:22 bring the noise! 03:00:47 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS OOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!! 03:00:54 RAWRRRRRRR 03:01:26 My kitten is good for this purpose, but alas she is visiting friends. 03:01:50 ack, Riastradh 03:02:08 the blink on this computer is turned down waayyy too far, and I have to keep the sound off to keep peace in the house. 03:03:06 In any case, I wondered if you had any thoughts about the wondrous non-uptake of your SRFI 46 (Basic Syntax-rules Extensions) despite the fact that it solves a simple problem simply. 03:03:16 Not a clue. 03:03:24 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:54 sounds like Warnock to me. 03:04:18 Perhaps people feel that the simple problem is not worth solving. 03:04:48 But since I'm not an implementor of SYNTAX-RULES, I'm not the best person to ask. 03:05:23 I think more likely because people are used to the (... ...) escape. 03:05:32 That too. 03:05:37 Also, tail patterns have been pretty well adopted. 03:06:38 I definitely should add one or the other to chibi-scheme. 03:06:54 Is not riaxpander an implementation of syntax-rules? 03:06:58 Why not both, foof? 03:07:03 No, jcowan. It includes Jonathan Rees's. 03:07:22 *Adamant* takes a warhammer to a large mountain feline OS 03:07:27 :( 03:08:47 Adamant: Problems with Snow Leopard? 03:08:54 Adamant: unless you bought this feline OS in the last two days, it's not actually a *mountain* feline. 03:09:00 just sayin' 03:09:03 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176205097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:04 dstorrs: I bought it today 03:09:27 basically, no multitouch for me 03:09:29 Adamant: ah. well, there you go then. :> 03:09:37 also they've screwed up Spaces 03:09:57 Adamant: I've been thinking about upgrading, so I'd really like to hear more about this. 03:10:06 What's your hardware? 03:10:15 dstorrs: you have to have a early 2008 MBP to get gestures 03:10:18 I have late 2007 03:10:20 (I'm on 10.5 right now) 03:10:24 I would wait 03:10:31 for 6.1 or 6.2 03:11:18 your Spaces key also won't let you zoom in on a particular windows anymore, you have to left-click 03:11:35 yeah. usually the x.0 version is not worth buying...of anything. :< 03:11:39 which is annoying because left-click is also used to move the window or things in the window 03:11:54 I never really liked Spaces anyway, so haven't really used it. 03:12:03 ah, I need virtual desktops 03:12:09 just the way I roll 03:12:19 even on Shomer fuckin' Shabbas 03:12:22 hello 03:12:48 I have found Spaces to be pretty flakey in Leopard. 03:13:07 it never worked the way I wanted it to. 03:13:09 it is, and they've reduced the flakiness in some respects 03:13:19 but increased it in others 03:13:24 I wanted to be able to put WINDOWS on a given desktop. instead, I can only put APPS on a desktop 03:13:32 if i have a list: '(hello there foo bar) 03:13:42 i have to traverse through recursively and check for the last character of every element 03:13:53 ...and return a list with the elements that contain words ending with a 'e' 03:13:59 i got all that 03:14:15 but the problem is that those that don't match, i have to return '() (which is what i don't want) 03:14:34 Piratero: write your search function recursively 03:14:34 so the list looks like: ('() there '() '()) -- i esentialy have this: (cons (if (equal? (last (first s)) 'e) (first s) '()) (ends-e (cdr s))) 03:14:48 that explains why i output a '() element 03:14:52 the last element in the original list will be '() 03:14:58 right 03:15:02 when you see that, return it and cons together everything 03:15:23 oh hm... 03:15:44 i shouldn't have to build another list and cons that? 03:15:54 What implementations support tail patterns? 03:16:07 foof: I think it would be a Good Thing if chibi became the reference implementation for Thing One. 03:16:34 foof: could you define 'tail patterns' ? 03:17:01 do you mean 'guarantee that certain formations are eval'd in tail position' ? 03:19:19 Piratero: not exactly clear on what you mean 03:19:29 hold on... 03:20:35 jcowan: I think chibi wil be discussed a lot in context of Thing One, but it shouldn't get special consideration. As a "reference implementation" I would defer to any real-world minimal Scheme which was self-hosting. 03:21:07 foof: does chibi work properly on plan 9? 03:21:11 How about just a metacircular evaluator? 03:21:12 Elly: yes 03:21:35 foof: does it have support for something like alt()? 03:21:45 `alt'? 03:21:46 Riastradh: No, I don't think metacircular evaluators should weigh in on Thing One. 03:21:53 Why not, foof? 03:21:59 (Is Thing One little Scheme?) 03:22:26 dstorrs: syntax-rules patterns that have fixed trailing patterns after an ellipses 03:22:55 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 03:22:56 Yes, I'm taking Thing One as little Scheme here. 03:23:16 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 03:23:19 dstorrs pasted "For Piratero" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86281 03:23:27 (Why did these start getting mnemonically null names like `Thing One' and `Thing Two'?) 03:23:52 (Don't like at me, it was jcowan!) 03:23:57 Piratero: check that paste. It has not been tested or even syntax checked, so probably some of the parens are off. 03:24:11 (I wasn't liking at anyone, foof! I don't even know how to like `at' someone, unless we're in Spain.) 03:24:14 MononcQc [n=Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:24:29 and you still need to write the "desirable" function that checks the last character of an element. this is just intended to get you started. 03:24:31 (But even then the subject/object construction shifts around in this case, so that still doesn't make sense.) 03:26:57 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:27:00 foof: I didn't mean special consideration by any means; I just meant that it would be a Good Thing if chibi wound up being an implementation that WG1 could point to. 03:27:18 Anyway, from a theoretical perspective, I stand by my idea of "code from The Book" where the sum total of knowledge (or the platform on which you build) should be taken into consideration in the complexity of a system. Thus in a metacircular tower I'm only really interested in the implementation of the base system. 03:27:27 Riastradh: I dubbed small and large Scheme "Thing One" and "Thing Two" on r6rs-discuss 03:28:09 From a practical perspective, nobody ever writes applications for a metacircular interpreter. 03:30:13 jcowan: Alas, I'm in the middle of implementing a module system which will almost certainly bear no resemblance to whatever they decide on :/ 03:30:18 Oh, good. 03:30:31 What will it look like? 03:31:15 Scheme48 with hierarchical library names and more familiar bindings like `import' instead of `open'. 03:32:50 And the library names are thus clearly not first-class, so there are no longer any "reserved words." 03:33:15 *jcowan* nods. 03:33:19 Looks a bit heavyweight. 03:33:23 e.g. in Scheme48 you can't have a library named `open'. 03:33:29 Yes, you can, foof. 03:35:50 Hmmm, well you can't have an interface named `open'. 03:36:33 Ah, excuse me: you are right. 03:36:53 jcowan: It won't have any bells & whistles, really, initially. 03:37:52 I was sorta expecting something more like Chicken. 03:38:44 I plan to write up a general discussion of module system this week, about what the words mean to different people, about the problems they may, can, or must solve, about various approaches that are taken to solving them, and about benefits and drawbacks to various elements of their design. 03:38:50 jcowan: It will basically have that level of functionality, but with a config language that can be built on if desired. 03:39:05 *jcowan* nods. 03:39:21 I'm also keen on keeping the module declaration separate from the code. 03:40:08 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["bbl"] 03:40:28 That will let me take all my portable R5RS code that you can just (load ...) to get working, and package it as-is along with an optional module declaration. 03:40:48 *jcowan* nods. 03:40:50 And then write automated hooks or translators for other module systems. 03:40:51 Thank you, foof, for doing that! 03:41:39 Indeed. 03:41:44 You are, to my knowledge I think, now the first person beyond me, Jonathan, and Olin who has publicly acknowledged that to be a desirable property of a module system. 03:42:08 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:42:56 i used to do that, but it became a pain, so i recently moved to plt as my source language. i will translate from plt to other dialects 03:43:22 it also makes using the plt tools easier 03:44:55 After much muddling on the subject, I'm thinking that dividing Thing One into "mandatory modules" all of which a conformant application must implement makes little sense. 03:45:17 (IOW, the (rnrs ...) modules of R6RS) 03:46:03 It's just extra clutter for the T1 programmer, who needs fluidity more than the ability to pare down the implementation. 03:46:21 If anyone thinks otherwise, I'd like to hear about it. 03:48:59 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:42 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:52:37 Other than R6RS' rather ignorant omission of any built-in forms for permitting code and library forms to be separate, and ignoring the issue of reading in the whole form to handle the library, which doesn't apply to the issue of distributing modules and code in separate files, is there a module system that doesn't allow this? 03:52:59 I know Scheme48 and Chez permit this, and I believe PLT Scheme does as well. 03:53:12 I don't know about Chicken's newfangled gizmo, but are there any others? 03:54:08 foof: My dirty little secret is that I use noweb to isolate my code from my module forms. :-P 03:54:25 foof: Though that isn't necessary. 03:54:29 How about making little Scheme the evaluation model and a set of bindings, and big Scheme a module system and library of modules, with little Scheme as a module? 03:55:03 Small Scheme must, by SC fiat, have a module system. 03:55:12 Riastradh: I have been pushing for something like this, but there seems to be resistance to splitting WG#2. 03:55:21 jcowan: Something that can be changed. 03:55:26 jcowan: Those are only drafts. 03:56:19 Granted, arcfide. 03:58:53 I do believe that even in small Scheme there should be a way to load packages with renaming of their names. Given my other stance that syntax-rules suffice for T1, that suffices for a module system, I believe. 04:05:25 Riastradh: I can't make little Scheme anything, I certainly don't speak for the committee! :) 04:05:52 But I will try to keep chibi small while adding _lots_ of modules. 04:06:45 At present there is no committee; AFAIK there is not even a chair. 04:06:52 or, as you say, a non-draft charter. 04:07:09 jcowan: You mean there are no editors - there is a steering committee. 04:07:40 There is a SC, but there is no WG1 or WG2, not even chairs thereof. 04:07:49 Riastradh: Please do write up your module system discussion. 04:11:08 *foof* vanishes 04:13:33 Uh-oh. foof has discovered Riastradh, thequet twick 04:14:00 :o 04:15:03 s/,/'s 04:16:21 Hmmm. 04:17:16 `All technical discussions must be made public.' I am not sure this is a good requirement of the working group. (Also, I am reminded that jcowan is not responsible for the `one' and `two' denominations.) 04:17:41 m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:17:59 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:29 (Won't someone demand of me `What planet are you smoking? That is a blatantly obvious necessity of the working group to disseminate the arguments that led to the delivered artifacts!'?) 04:21:50 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:22:58 I so demand. 04:23:28 I do not demand. 04:23:56 I understand why technical discussions can be made private, so long as complete rationales are presented and objections may be taken into consideration afterwards. 04:24:03 Make up your collective mind, jcowanarcfide. 04:24:32 Riastradh: You saw what happened to Schemers who tried to bring together their collective minds towards consensus in scale: R6RS. 04:28:43 -!- MononcQc [n=Ferd@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:29:17 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:29:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 04:31:24 arcfide: Is R6RS an argument for or against openness? 04:31:29 see y'all in a bit. new updates, must restart. 04:31:45 -!- dstorrs [n=user@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:34:05 I believe that discussion in private is not discussion, but horse-trading, and I have strongly urged the SC to make the WG lists openly readable but not openly postable. 04:35:25 and schemers will end up being angry that they can't comment there, and find other forums in which to comment 04:36:32 I hope there will be such a forum, and of course there will be other forums. 04:37:06 Personally I want to know what induced jcowan to imagine smoking a planet, but that aside: A large archive of several years' worth of discussion is hard for anyone who was not present in the discussion to navigate, but it is very easy for a participant to say that `we discussed several alternatives, and you can see the discussion if you want, but in the end we decided on that particular one'; I am concerned that the working grou 04:37:11 "Many non-authoritarian organizations have foundered on the dubious principle of open membership, which frequently leads to preponderance of assholes, yahoos, spoilers, whining neurotics, & police agents." --Hakim Bey 04:37:14 jcowan: I don't think it is an argument for or against. The problem there, IMO, wasn't that they discussed issues in private, but that they didn't respond to strong objections from the community afterwards. Admittedly, that might not have helped. In all, there were too many issues to resolve. I don't blame the private discussion among a few. 04:37:14 Gack. 04:37:16 Truncation point? 04:37:24 working gro 04:37:47 I am concerned that the working group may be less motivated to make self-justifying, or at least clearly justified, specifications. 04:38:23 merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:38:23 I'd like there to be a better corporate memory than a mailing list; I don't know if that's practical. 04:38:29 theoros [n=theoros@unaffiliated/theoros] has joined #scheme 04:38:30 I would rather have clear specifications, with clear reasoning and hopefully obvious justification (at least rationale that is complete) than to have an open forum. 04:38:36 what's an algorithm? 04:38:58 jcowan: What's wrong with a mailing list? 04:39:42 Well, I had better close things up here. 04:40:00 See everyone later. 04:40:07 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 04:40:31 What Riastradh says ... @#$*. 04:41:08 merus, are you serious? 04:41:12 It's hard to navigate mailing list archives. 04:41:53 What's the maildrop bot for this channel? 04:42:29 `minion: memo for arcfide: ' 04:43:03 Thanks 04:43:20 merus, do you want the short answer or the long answer? 04:43:37 (I have neither but I'm curious) 04:43:45 I don't know, I guess. 04:43:53 minion: memo for arcfide: What's wrong with mailing lists is that they aren't well-organized for later exploration of what issues were raised, what proposals were put forth, and what the arguments pro and con were. 04:43:53 Remembered. I'll tell arcfide when he/she/it next speaks. 04:44:01 minion: thanks 04:44:01 you're welcome 04:45:24 Does (map surf-to...) in the topic allow parallelization to occur? 04:45:38 That depends on your surfboard, Quadrescence. 04:46:03 jcowan: Why? Every surfboard is topologically equivalent. 04:46:20 No, no, some have holes in them 04:46:38 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:46:43 merus: Yes, but we can just employ some good ol' surgeries a la Ricci in finite amounts. 04:47:00 You never said that a surfboard was a subset of R^3. 04:47:15 -!- m7d [n=lriley@pool-71-102-232-43.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:47:47 merus: I think it's implied by the topic. 04:48:09 Some have electric motors, too. 04:49:04 *jcowan* likes the Hyperwebster, personally. 04:50:29 I too like space-time manifolds with electric motors. 04:50:57 -!- theoros [n=theoros@unaffiliated/theoros] has left #scheme 05:02:34 I really don't like trying to prove complex properties of algorithms I don't properly understand 05:04:06 I should think not. 05:04:18 I don't like proving properties of algorithms that I do understand. 05:04:23 I don't like proofs, period. 05:04:41 proofs are fun! 05:08:16 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:27 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 05:11:52 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:11:55 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 05:27:49 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 05:28:39 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 05:33:57 huh. plt #: keywords can't be provided in the keywords list of the syntax-rules syntax 05:39:04 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:01 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:48:25 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:50:38 -!- wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:29 sphex_ 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connection] 06:34:06 -!- wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:28 a-s [n=user@nat-240.ro.66.com] has joined #scheme 06:45:42 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:46:30 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:47:12 ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:48:40 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:03 rcy [n=rcy@154.20.143.140] has joined #scheme 07:02:26 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:02:52 rcy` [n=rcy@d154-20-140-113.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:04 -!- rcy [n=rcy@154.20.143.140] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:07 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:58 dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.87.226] has joined #scheme 07:10:34 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-ymczpqdcdphdeygf] has joined #scheme 07:14:23 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["bbl"] 07:16:34 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 07:16:34 neilv: No need -- they are considered literal like numbers and strings 07:17:08 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:47 eli: yes, but it means this macro i'm writing that generates a syntax-rules form will not automatically work with both keywords and arbitrary other symbols 07:18:42 this is a rare situation, so i won't argue that plt be changed 07:20:49 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:21:13 neilv: I'm not following that exactly (and I have about -10 minutes to do so), but if you're generating syntax-rules forms, then all you need is to filter the non-identifiers out of the keywords list. 07:21:31 mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:52 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-177-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 07:21:57 syntax-rules can't distinguish identifiers from keywords, afaik 07:22:21 don't let me take your time on this, though 07:22:39 it's not an important need 07:23:12 -!- mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:42 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 07:27:05 the drscheme macro stepper is a godsend 07:27:41 that alone is reason to make plt one's default scheme 07:28:26 HG` [n=HG@xdslfb169.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 07:28:46 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:29:01 bzzbzz_ [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 07:29:01 mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:29:15 -!- bzzbzz_ [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 07:30:19 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:34:17 exxxd34 [n=aseas65x@p4241-ipbfp1101fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:34:44 that's a dangerous assertion 07:36:08 -!- Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:36:28 Axioplase [n=Axioplas@fortigate.kb.ecei.tohoku.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 07:36:36 -!- steiger_ [n=steiger@20150136004.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:40 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@134.173.87.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:38 neilv: Yeah, you probably will need to use `syntax-case' and `identifier?'. 07:40:57 the point of the exercise was to do it in syntax-rules 07:41:15 which is why supporting both symbols and keywords, while practically useful, is not important :) 07:56:52 neilv: So the easiest solution might be writing your own version of `syntax-rules'... (Which is nearly trivial.) 07:57:00 *eli* disappears 08:03:19 the easiest thing to do is to go to bed, now that insomnia has been defeated by pattern variables 08:07:07 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:07:29 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:31 -!- ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:07:32 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:07:46 ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:16:29 wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:19:27 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:54 -!- jedc [n=jedc@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:20:41 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:21:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:25:20 -!- mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:29:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:25 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:52:29 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:52:44 -!- merus [n=merus@c-67-175-45-120.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:54:19 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:28 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 09:01:18 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:13:47 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 09:19:17 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 09:20:52 npe [n=npe@94.224.251.223] has joined #scheme 09:27:30 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:29:13 Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 09:30:41 -!- npe [n=npe@94.224.251.223] has quit [] 09:31:19 -!- wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:21 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:44 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 09:38:13 schmir [n=schmir@p54A91F0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:42:04 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:58:12 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 10:00:13 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:12 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 10:01:41 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:15:09 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:16:04 masm [n=masm@bl7-199-127.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 10:17:50 maodun [n=stopgo@114.243.112.83] has joined #scheme 10:21:14 (define (foo x) (eval 'x)) doesn't do what I want it to do (and presumably with good reason) - how can I get the value of a symbol in a scope-aware manner? 10:22:00 maodun: x and x' are not related in your case 10:22:32 *maybe* you just want (define (foo x) (eval x)) 10:22:48 Or maybe you're just confused by quotes 10:24:43 Axioplase_: probably the latter. *tries to reformulate the problem* 10:34:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/86290 10:37:41 merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 10:41:54 -!- exxxd34 [n=aseas65x@p4241-ipbfp1101fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:45:43 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:45 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 11:02:53 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 11:03:56 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 11:05:22 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 11:05:51 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:07:10 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 11:23:13 oh, figured it out, nm 11:23:14 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@114.243.112.83] has left #scheme 11:33:56 *ski* wonders whether that was Clojure, and what maodun figured out 11:37:02 perhaps that he was in the wrong channel :) 11:42:15 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@70.83.34.240] has quit ["leaving"] 11:45:06 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:46:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-199.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:49:00 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:58:46 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:03:12 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-199-127.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:09:56 masm [n=masm@bl7-194-250.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:10:31 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:19:24 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-252.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:53 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-23.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:27:09 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:32:01 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:33:03 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 12:33:38 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:50:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:50:27 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:28 -!- mapreduce [n=ricky@varenka.cime.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:58 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:05:37 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:09:50 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 13:11:48 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:52 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:21 dstorrs [n=user@98.14.187.196] has joined #scheme 13:16:27 morning all 13:17:09 wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:20:15 \quit 13:20:17 -!- dstorrs [n=user@98.14.187.196] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:55 dstorrs [n=user@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:22:05 masm1 [n=masm@bl7-201-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 13:25:46 zachb048 [n=zachb@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:26:29 -!- zachb048 [n=zachb@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:26:44 nAgoHaK [n=nagohack@unaffiliated/nagohak] has joined #scheme 13:27:29 zachb875 [n=zachb@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:28:02 hi. I'm a beginner. what scheme IDE can I use? only drscheme ? 13:28:45 Emacs works well too, though the learning curve is steep 13:29:09 I use Dr. Scheme, but I do GUI programming. 13:29:21 I believe there's even an Eclipse plugin 13:29:24 nAgoHaK: there is also jazzscheme, but you should probably try drscheme for now 13:29:38 Ummm. Speaking of... 13:29:55 hm. I've forgot. linux) 13:30:00 Does anyone know how to put a backgroung image in a frame using PLT Scheme? 13:31:37 I am on Dr Scheme for the IDE, if that helps. 13:32:20 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 13:32:21 ok. thank you all) 13:32:36 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 13:33:24 You wouldn't know how to put a backgroung image on a Dr Scheme frame, would you nAgoHaK? 13:35:50 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 13:36:32 zachb875: I'm noob) 13:36:35 zachb875: he just said that he is a beginner, so I guess not 13:36:53 zachb875: but ask on the plt-scheme list, they know. Since they wrote it :) 13:37:00 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:03 -!- masm [n=masm@bl7-194-250.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:05 rudybot: ,help 13:37:05 Leonidas: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 13:37:11 rudybot: help 13:37:12 Leonidas: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 13:37:39 rudybot: give candy to Leonidas 13:37:40 Leonidas: your sandbox is ready 13:37:40 Leonidas: error: reference to undefined identifier: to 13:38:10 rudybot: help give 13:38:10 Leonidas: give ...: evaluate and give someone the result 13:38:24 give Leonidas 'candy 13:38:32 -!- zachb875 [n=zachb@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has quit ["http://irc2go.com/"] 13:38:32 rudybot: give Leonidas 'candy 13:38:33 Leonidas: error: Talk to yourself much too? 13:38:50 probably 13:39:05 rudybot: uptime 13:39:06 Leonidas: I've been up for two weeks, six days; this tcp/ip connection has been up for five days, sixteen hours 13:39:11 rudybot: version 13:39:12 Leonidas: 4c4cd42 13:40:34 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:42:25 incubot: What is the first commandment? 13:42:29 The First Commandment 13:45:15 incubot: thou shalt never bot. 13:45:19 Thou shalt not misunderstand thy own code, nor shalt thou bear false witness in comments above it. 13:45:21 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:53 incubot: what is the source of that quote? 13:45:58 I'm still not sure I understand what purpose you want this for. 13:46:21 incubot: who needs purpose? 13:46:24 (the all-purpose excuse) 13:47:16 (call/cc call/cc) 13:51:30 -!- dstorrs is now known as _dstorrs 13:51:47 dstorrs [n=user@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:52:14 -!- _dstorrs [n=user@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 13:53:28 -!- wy [n=wy@c-98-228-40-51.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:55:36 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:32 zachb130 [n=zachb@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:13:39 HELP! 14:13:50 I tried to go to PLT Scheme, but it says I am banned. 14:14:44 You mean the channel #plt-scheme ? 14:15:13 Supposedly it is only a discussion area for the PLT developers. 14:15:44 Oh... 14:15:52 Where do I get help then? 14:15:53 If you have PLT-specific questions, there are plenty of PLT users here, though we are not around all of the time. 14:16:14 tried documentation, but couldn't fin what I need. 14:16:24 If you can't find a user here who knows the answer, using a mailing list would be a more reliable way of gettin an answer. 14:16:36 How do I display a backgroung image (GIF or PG 14:16:36 What is the question? 14:18:32 Background image on what - a frame? a control? 14:20:29 hmm, #plt-scheme is quite unfriendly. 14:24:10 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 14:28:31 yes 14:31:47 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-177-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:44 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 14:36:26 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 14:37:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:39:51 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 14:45:47 sorry, I got distracted looking at my source, I need to display a background image on a PLT Scheme frame. 14:50:28 -!- ASau [n=user@host110-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:51:17 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.79.15] has joined #scheme 14:51:53 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 14:55:21 zachb130: I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that one. You might be able to put a canvas% behind your other controls. 14:55:56 zachb130: I'd suggest asking the mailing list. 14:55:59 -!- zachb130 [n=zachb@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has quit ["http://irc2go.com/"] 15:01:18 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:02:00 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:02:06 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:09:19 -!- zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1"] 15:15:37 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.4.231] has joined #scheme 15:15:48 masm [n=masm@bl8-57-26.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 15:20:42 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:21:45 mreggen [n=mreggen@84.215.28.167] has joined #scheme 15:22:02 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.79.15] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:45 tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:24:17 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:32:42 -!- masm1 [n=masm@bl7-201-131.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:10 bit_shifter [n=bit_shif@netblock-68-183-144-49.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 15:41:06 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:43:56 ineiros [n=itniemin@130.233.178.16] has joined #scheme 15:45:40 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has left #scheme 15:49:11 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 15:50:13 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:40 -!- ineiros [n=itniemin@130.233.178.16] has quit ["gone"] 15:53:17 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 15:53:21 ineiros [n=itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 15:55:45 foof, Aubrey Jaffer started a thread on comp.lang.scheme about GC stress test that causes the mark phase of some mark-and-sweep collectors to overflow their stacks during depth-first traversal. He claimed that it caused MIT Scheme to segfault. Not only can I not reproduce this (I consistently get recoverable out-of-memory errors), but MIT Scheme doesn't even trace the heap depth-first. 15:56:34 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:56:43 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:58:45 (`...about _a_ GC stress test...') 16:00:01 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:02:30 Maybe it's a coincidence and there's a platform-specific alignment bug or such 16:03:29 m811 [n=user@84-50-207-42-dsl.est.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:17:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslfb169.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:29:47 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:29:59 michaelw [i=michaelw@88.198.49.16] has joined #scheme 16:30:05 VirtualBox's seamless mode is nice :) 16:33:12 -!- tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 16:36:34 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 16:38:08 ejs [n=eugen@4-72-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:16 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 16:43:36 jonrafkind [n=jon@155.98.68.48] has joined #scheme 16:50:22 merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 16:51:29 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 16:56:12 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@84.215.28.167] has quit ["leaving"] 17:00:42 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:20 dysinger [n=tim@98.246.183.155] has joined #scheme 17:08:53 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:09:07 nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 17:15:47 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:15:57 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:16:42 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:18:38 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 17:20:19 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 17:22:28 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 17:25:42 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:34 patmaddox [n=patmaddo@242.sub-75-217-149.myvzw.com] has joined #scheme 17:36:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@4-72-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:29 syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has joined #scheme 17:37:36 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-217-186.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 17:37:47 I was screwing around a bit with call/cc and I found something odd. 17:37:58 (define proc (call/cc (lambda (k) (lambda a (k a))))) 17:38:21 when called like (proc + 1) it works fine the first time, but not the second.... 17:38:26 (I'm using Chicken btw) 17:39:38 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:07 offby1, Riastradh, or anyone else - would you happen to know the name for the practice of using the quality of an item to refer to that item? "I'm wearing my blue today" to refer to a particular shirt, for example? 17:40:31 syntropy: You are returning the argument list you pass to k to the continuation of define proc 17:40:50 So after the first call, proc has the value (list + 1) 17:44:53 gnomon: synecdoche? 17:45:39 sjamaan: I've never experimented with call/cc as much as I thought I had. 17:51:09 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:00 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:53:11 zbigniew, that's it! Or at least that's plausible enough for the context I require! Thanks. 17:54:00 ejs [n=eugen@163-47-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 17:59:19 zbigniew: Naw, synecdoche is for a part of the whole, not a quality of the whole. 17:59:29 Not that I have any better idea. :-( 17:59:47 TimMc, metonomy is probably the term I'm after. 18:02:11 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:31 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:10:07 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056E38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:11:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.2/20090729225027]"] 18:17:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:18:20 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 18:23:51 <_Pb> anyone feeling generous enough to help a scheme noob make sense of macros? 18:24:17 <_Pb> i've been reading about them for the past hour, can't write any that work or make sense of what i've read 18:24:51 <_Pb> CL macros make perfect sense to me, but define-macro is being deprecated, right? 18:25:33 <_Pb> it at least doesn't work in mzscheme 18:28:52 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-idybrdlokezovmil] has joined #scheme 18:36:00 _Pb: Try define-syntax instead. 18:36:36 how do I repeat the last typed thing in guile interpreter? 18:36:46 <_Pb> TimMc: i've been having more trouble with define-syntax, that's the thing 18:39:45 _Pb: Are you having trouble writing *any* macros, or writing more complex ones? (brb) 18:42:42 <_Pb> TimMc: any macros, it's the pattern-matching language that I don't get 18:45:23 _Pb: Maybe if you thought of it like a syntax transformer? It takes one syntax, and produces a new syntax in the same sort of context, but with different...syntax. 18:46:33 syntax-rules can analyze syntax and take it apart in various ways, and then put it back together again according to the rules you specify. 18:47:38 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:47:45 <_Pb> synx: okay 18:48:23 (syntax-rules () ((a b c) (c b a))) for instance will take the syntax #'(1 2 3) and turn it into #'(3 2 1) 18:48:44 it produces a procedure that takes a syntax form as an argument, and returns a syntax form. 18:48:47 syntax-rules that is 18:50:08 rudybot: eval (define thing (syntax-rules () ((a b c) (c b a)))) 18:50:19 rudybot: eval (thing #'(1 2 3)) 18:50:19 synx: ; Value: # 18:50:39 rudybot: eval (syntax->datum (thing #'(1 2 3))) 18:50:39 synx: ; Value: (3 2 a) 18:51:01 ...okay so I suck. But that's basically it. 18:52:14 merus_ [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has joined #scheme 18:52:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:52:27 -!- merus_ [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:52:52 -!- schmir [n=schmir@p54A91F0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:45 <_Pb> synx: why do you do (define thing instead of (define-syntax thing? 18:54:40 _Pb: to demonstrate that syntax-rules isn't anything magic. 18:54:47 <_Pb> ah, heh 18:54:54 <_Pb> thanks so much, this works great 18:55:04 (define-syntax) is kind of magic though... 18:55:11 <_Pb> yeah, it is 18:55:18 <_Pb> where did you learn all of this? 18:55:28 The trickiest thing about syntax-rules (and, syntax-case) is those ellipses. 18:55:46 Mostly trial and error. I read the documentation and asked around here, and fiddled with ellipses until I figured out how they worked. 18:55:54 not...the most efficient method... 18:56:48 <_Pb> well, the documentation on it isn't great 18:57:38 it is kind of sketchy 18:58:10 <_Pb> is define-macro being deprecated altogether? 18:58:33 -!- syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has left #scheme 18:58:50 It's non-hygenic, so you can use the macro in sensible ways and have it produce the wrong code entirely. 18:59:17 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:51 Plus macros have issues with namespaces and module support. 19:00:07 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:30 I made a non-hygenic syntax-case once that worked great, except when you required it from another module, then just produced a bunch of garbage. 19:01:02 _Pb: Macro hygiene, as I understand it, is basically the property of preserving lexical scope during macro expansion. 19:01:12 <_Pb> i see 19:01:34 lexical... 19:02:05 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-ymczpqdcdphdeygf] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:02:10 <_Pb> that's easier to type than "namespaces and modules" i guess 19:02:23 _Pb, yes, DEFINE-MACRO is obsolete. You should never use it in new code. 19:02:46 <_Pb> oh okay 19:03:02 _Pb: Bear in mind that I am somewhat of a beginner, so don't take my words as gospel. However, the above statement is something I found useful in understanding hygienic macros. 19:03:12 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:03:20 <_Pb> TimMc: it makes perfect sense 19:03:27 Yay! 19:03:56 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 19:04:53 I don't really understand what "lexical scope" means. 19:05:19 synx: Static binding of identifiers. 19:05:26 a fancy way to say "inside the parentheses here" I guess. 19:05:29 Sort of. 19:05:46 what does binding have to do with lexing? 19:05:52 I don't have the proper definition on hand, though. 19:07:37 synx, lexical scope is a method of assigning meanings to names whereby a name's meaning is determined by its textual position in the code, as opposed to dynamic scope, where each name's meaning is determined by the time at which the program referenced the name. 19:09:00 <_Pb> what a great way to put it 19:09:51 <_Pb> PLT seems to have good documentation on syntax-rules 19:10:00 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:10:06 so dynamic scope would be whether a light would be red or green at any given moment, whereas lexical scope would be the position of that light on a dashboard? 19:10:38 Um...I don't follow. 19:10:44 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:40 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-23.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:11:52 I'm trying to think of an example. 19:12:12 an appropriate analogy 19:13:14 (define (map f l) (if (pair? l) (cons (f (car l)) (map f (cdr l))) '())) 19:13:20 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has joined #scheme 19:13:31 (map (let ((l 5)) (lambda (x) (+ x l))) '(1 2 3 4)) 19:14:30 Is the meaning of L determined by the textual position where I wrote it, inside a LET that bound it to a variable whose value is 5; or is the meaning of L determined by the time at which it is referenced, inside the call to MAP, in which it is bound to a variable whose value is some list? 19:17:16 it's 5 inside the lambda, and some list inside the call to map. 19:17:54 defun [i=c625112c@gateway/web/freenode/x-msswzgofbxjuhwqb] has joined #scheme 19:17:57 With lexical scope, yes. 19:18:19 When is it ever different than that? 19:18:59 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:19:04 With dynamic scope, because the procedure is called during the call to MAP, the meaning of the name L is what it was inside MAP. 19:19:43 That would be nuts... 19:19:52 You couldn't have closures that way. 19:19:56 Dynamic scope by default is indeed nuts. 19:19:57 synx: Imagine everything actually bein a Parameter. 19:23:52 edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.79.15] has joined #scheme 19:24:27 synx: Some languages have a mix. For instance, VBScript has subroutines in which otherwise undefined variable references are looked up in the caller's environment. 19:25:14 I don't think there's any alternative, actually. 19:26:06 I finally grokked scheme. My mind has been changed forever. 19:26:21 tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 19:26:30 One of us! One of us! 19:27:40 defun: congratulations! 19:28:02 congratulations: try not to hate us when you go take a job programming in java or c#. ;) 19:28:21 edwardk: thanks! I will try. 19:35:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@98.246.183.155] has quit [] 19:41:13 -!- bit_shifter [n=bit_shif@netblock-68-183-144-49.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 19:43:52 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:47:37 -!- masm [n=masm@bl8-57-26.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:49:40 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:50:05 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:59:25 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 20:05:37 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:49 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-8.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:32 -!- patmaddox [n=patmaddo@242.sub-75-217-149.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:08:51 arcfide pasted "Parameterized Modules in Chez" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86324 20:09:02 Does anyone want to help me fix a problem? 20:09:03 arcfide, memo from jcowan: What's wrong with mailing lists is that they aren't well-organized for later exploration of what issues were raised, what proposals were put forth, and what the arguments pro and con were. 20:09:22 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:57 Riastradh: In MIT Scheme I get: 20:10:07 ;Aborting!: out of memory 20:10:20 But then it drops me back in the REPL. 20:10:35 In Scheme48 I get: 20:10:42 gc: Scheme 48 heap overflow (max heap size 3000000 cells) 20:10:42 arcfide: What's the problem? 20:10:50 The module that define-params generates fails I believe because the identifiers defined by def-param are not the same identifiers as those in the #'(param ...) list. 20:10:51 And then it terminates. 20:11:26 chandler: More specifically, the exact error is 'missing definition for export '. 20:12:06 chandler: Originally I had a syntax-rules based definition for 'def-param', and this is my attempt to fix what I am guessing is a phasing problem. 20:12:10 Sorry, not phasing. 20:12:14 wrapping. 20:13:42 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:13:45 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:13:54 I'm not sure I understand what `place' is supposed to do, and why a pure `syntax-rules' version does not work. 20:13:57 chandler: '(module/parameterized m (test) (a) (define test a)) (m m1 (a 'x))' => (module m1 (test) (module (a) (define-syntax a (identifier-syntax 'x))) (define test a)). 20:14:03 Unforunately, I've got to run right now - sorry. 20:14:20 Oh! 20:14:21 ... 20:16:55 Does anyone know how termite scheme compares to erlang? 20:17:03 Nope. 20:17:07 Doesn't work. 20:17:17 defun: That wasn't a response to you. 20:17:26 i figured :) 20:18:51 foof, yes, exactly. So I don't know what Jaffer was talking about with segfaults and stack overflows during depth-first tracing. 20:20:02 masm [n=masm@bl8-57-26.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 20:20:07 How do you tell MIT Scheme to grow the heap as needed? 20:20:27 *mejja* laughs cruelly 20:20:34 You don't, foof. 20:20:49 ... you mean you can't? 20:20:55 arcfide annotated #86324 "Simplified Problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/86324#1 20:21:09 Well, you can, but it involves editing the source code. 20:21:57 Okay, so the above is a simplified Syntax Rules based version. Can anyone help me figure out what to do here? I'm sure that the issue is def-param. 20:23:04 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:31:07 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:11 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 20:31:33 -!- merus [n=merus@pal-175-227.itap.purdue.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:35:03 bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has joined #scheme 20:35:09 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:15 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 20:39:38 mapreduce [n=ricky@varenka.cime.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:02 How would you type (lambda (f x) (f f x)) in Typed Scheme? 20:44:24 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-144.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:04 (lambda: ((f : (Rec F (F Number -> Number))) (x : Number)) (f f x)) 20:46:57 Beautiful, thanks. 20:47:22 Do you have a particular connection with Typed Scheme? 20:49:05 no 20:49:41 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:49 [not Typed Scheme-specific] Is match in scheme/match simply a macro? 20:51:49 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:52:29 _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has joined #scheme 20:56:26 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 20:57:25 Hmm. Is typed scheme implemented on top of PLT scheme using macros? 20:57:44 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has quit [] 20:57:59 mapreduce: looks like it, though it's pretty complicated: http://svn.plt-scheme.org/plt/trunk/collects/scheme/match/ 21:00:13 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:47 Can macros compose macros, to form higher order macros? 21:02:46 Or. Can scheme expand macros within macros, without being fussy about it. 21:04:09 a macro can expand to code that invokes, or even creates more macros 21:04:32 that's what I thought. 21:04:37 thanks. 21:08:19 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:15:50 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:16:55 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.131.194.186] has left #scheme 21:17:21 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056E38.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:18:04 -!- bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has left #scheme 21:19:56 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 21:20:46 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:59 -!- Phaze [n=PhazeDK@0x5da32b16.cpe.ge-0-1-0-1104.soebnqu1.customer.tele.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:21:10 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 21:24:53 MononcQc [i=MononcQc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:26:47 Hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.205] has joined #scheme 21:29:03 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [] 21:29:46 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has joined #scheme 21:30:42 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 21:33:34 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:36:17 -!- edwardk [n=edwardk@32.143.79.15] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:01 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.28.167.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:59:09 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:30 zeroish` [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 22:09:01 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:14:26 leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.229] has joined #scheme 22:14:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:17:03 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:11 -!- perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has quit ["A cow. A trampoline. Together they fight crime!"] 22:18:36 incubot: I hate this channel for introducing me to 'Bing goes the Internet' 22:18:39 it will align the bar with bing instead of just indenting by 2 22:20:00 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Success] 22:21:42 elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 22:22:08 -!- tagac [n=user@119.36.221.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["/* */"] 22:22:35 uberlazy [i=1000@93-136-217-226.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 22:22:41 hi there. 22:23:02 anyone played with parser combinators? 22:23:44 Nope. Nobody has ever played with them, nor written anything such as . 22:24:33 thanks. 22:24:41 i meant, anyone in the channel :) 22:25:26 uberlazy: Riastradh is the author of parscheme 22:26:24 lainc [n=lainc@20150059140.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 22:26:26 I could deny that allegation if I liked! 22:26:35 hello all 22:26:48 is this the channel for scheme programing language users? 22:27:13 yes. 22:27:13 lainc: No, this is the channel for ponzi schemes. 22:27:31 No, I'm sorry, it's actually the channel *about* Scheme programming language users. We gissop idly about them and `back-bite' regularly. 22:27:31 Riastradh: so you used laziness for recursive rules? 22:27:32 You probably want ##sicp 22:27:45 Excuse me: gossip. That word is too hard to type. I wish to file a complaint. 22:28:06 uberlazy, that is one function that laziness serves. 22:29:16 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:02 Boy, that Riastradh sure can't type. 22:30:48 i was banging my head against the wall for a few days now, trying to avoid laziness in a parser combinator prototype to prove a point. 22:31:04 *i've 22:31:18 Laziness is not necessary -- any implementation of non-strict evaluation will do. 22:31:40 But laziness avoids needless reconstruction of many parsers. 22:31:58 i'm not sure i understand that last sentence. 22:32:22 Summermute [n=scott@68.55.207.173] has joined #scheme 22:32:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:33:18 dmoerner [n=dmr@89-151.res.pomona.edu] has joined #scheme 22:33:22 You could change (DELAY exp) to (LAMBDA () exp) and (FORCE p) to (p), but that would cause the parsers to be reconstructed for each evaluation of (p). 22:35:05 right, i see what you mean. i see you rewrote the laziness library yourself. 22:40:34 Actually, that's for a different reason. 22:40:40 That's needed only for streams. 22:41:20 In fact it is used only for streams; the rest of the code that uses DELAY and FORCE uses the built-in DELAY and FORCE. 22:42:07 -!- masm [n=masm@bl8-57-26.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:42:14 i'm now thinking the parsers should not only be delayed, but memoized too. 22:42:27 i haven't read your entire source yet, maybe it's how you do it :) 22:42:35 Sounds good to me -- go for it. 22:42:55 I didn't do that because it would have been inexpedient; it requires identity-keyed maps. 22:43:51 well, isn't that the idea? why are identity maps a problem? 22:44:19 Identity-keyed maps are non-portable and of questionable semantic merit. 22:45:23 Doesn't that depend on what the keys are? 22:45:54 foof, doesn't what depend on what the keys are? 22:46:08 The portability of the map. 22:46:16 I'm talking about general identity-keyed maps; in this case, the keys will be procedures. 22:46:20 hm, it depends on the structure you use, right? 22:46:24 -!- lainc [n=lainc@20150059140.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:33 hash tables aren't readily portable, IIRC. 22:46:41 One could wrap the procedures in records, but then the identity of the records would be the issue. 22:47:20 or write a compatibility layer for mayor implementations, but that's drudgery. 22:47:22 even then, (let ((p (lambda (x) x))) (eq? p p)) => #t 22:48:25 Are you suggesting using alists or something, foof? For this purpose anything slower than hash maps would be unacceptable. 22:48:39 -!- Hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.205] has left #scheme 22:48:53 Yes, sorry, I was suggesting alists. 22:49:49 perhaps you could have the library user supply their own constructors and accessors for the hash table? 22:50:09 Why don't you try that, uberlazy, and see how the performance compares? 22:51:06 i think i will, actually. 22:51:13 what's your code license? 22:53:07 Oh, dear. That was when I was still writing public domain notices. Well, you may assume that or, if public domain notices make you uncomfortable, the 3-clause BSD licence at . 22:54:34 the link seems to be broken, but i know where to get the license. 22:54:39 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:54:50 ...oops, try again. 22:55:19 got it now. 22:56:55 the last question remains of the semantic merit and i haven't much to say in that department. 22:58:15 *Riastradh* vanishes. 22:59:58 :) 23:00:11 perdix [n=perdix@sxemacs/devel/perdix] has joined #scheme 23:11:41 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has joined #scheme 23:26:28 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:26:37 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:09 mongooseWA [n=mongoose@c-24-18-243-100.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:17 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:39:01 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.3.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:27 -!- uberlazy [i=1000@93-136-217-226.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["bye!"] 23:48:28 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [] 23:49:33 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-35-99.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 23:55:29 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:23 -!- kniu [n=kniu@128.2.16.211] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]