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02:02:35 http://www.scheme-reports.org/2009/position-statement.html 02:02:53 "More importantly, libraries or modules of code, such as URL parsers, network-protocol stacks, regular-expression implementations, and so forth, wind up stranded within the realm of a specific implementation [...]" 02:03:47 I should hope after all the effort I put into making irregex ultra-portable out of the box they'd not use that as an example here :/ 02:04:09 -!- disappearedng [n=disappea@th241042.ip.tsinghua.edu.cn] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:19 What they say is still true, foof. There are plenty of implementation-specific regular expression libraries out there! 02:04:20 foof: If you are going to the Scheme workshop you should put them to the rack. :-) 02:05:17 Riastradh: I was under the impression that there were plenty of implementation-specific bindings to C regex libraries. 02:05:35 Is there even a single implementation-specific regex library implemented in Scheme? 02:07:11 Because for implementation-specific bindings the thing to complain about is a lack of a standardized FFI. 02:07:26 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:07 Please, let's not put anyone to the rack. My understanding of the new charter, which so far has been corroborated by my brief skimming of the documents on that site, is that the steering committee is much more focussed on attaining consensus with an open and public process, rather than inventing new designs that look plausible to some implementors who have never really tried them. 02:08:26 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:55 The "two languages" worries me. The way they describe it, these languages could end up being completely unrelated. 02:10:02 It's really not that hard to build on top of a small core, at least if the core is designed well. 02:10:35 Who all *is* attending the Scheme Workshop? 02:11:16 TimMc: I intend to be there. 02:11:28 Where is it? 02:11:34 Boston 02:11:39 Northeastern University, in Boston 02:12:06 It begins in about thirty-six hours or so. 02:12:11 That's the school I attend, though I actually found out about the workshop through Reddit, of all places. 02:12:34 Ah, I couldn't possibly get there in time even if I wanted to :) 02:13:05 Gosh. There is an imbalance of parentheses at . 02:13:29 foof: Does that have something to do with the fact that you are connected to IRC via a .jp server? 02:14:21 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 02:14:35 Riastradh: Yup, on Mitch's entry. 02:15:00 Yeah, when are they gonna have a Scheme workshop in Tokyo? Or at least Asia? 02:15:44 When you offer to host it, foof. 02:16:27 A couple of years ago it was in Estonia, so clearly they're not picky about location. 02:17:27 Err, not likely. I'm currently apartment hunting, and apart from having to pay $800/month for a closet I have to fork out $5000 "gift money" to thank the landlord for letting me rent from him. 02:17:59 You have a current academic affiliation, right? Perhaps you could persuade your advisor to make hosting it happen. 02:18:23 Estonia was very difficult for many people, and Japan will trim the list of people who can attend even further. 02:18:45 Do you know why it was in Estonia, eli? 02:19:05 Because it was attached to ICFP. 02:19:15 (Which is usually a popular choice.) 02:19:34 I dimly recall hearing that the Estonian government recently (in the past few years) decided to dedicate great gobs of funding to academic endeavours, or something, although I don't remember anything specific about that. 02:19:44 Well, yes, eli, but do you know why the ICFP was in Estonia? 02:20:11 The work of Estonian spies planning to overthrow our technology infrastructure? 02:20:25 The ICFP community is much more well-distributed than the Scheme one. 02:20:32 Estonia is also apparently quite wired. 02:20:42 No, it'd have to be the work of Soviet spies planning to overthrow our technology infrastructure by dragging it to Estonia where they hammer on it. 02:21:09 But the only time I hear about Estonia is when some botnet is being controlled from there. >_> 02:22:37 Hey, aren't they the country that Russia recently DoS'd? 02:23:08 Yes, TimMc -- that's what I'm referring to. 02:23:28 jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has joined #scheme 02:26:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:26:54 *jcowan* unvanishes, gingerly 02:26:56 Is the extra paren on Mitchell Wand intentional, to signal the closing of his service? 02:29:32 Closing of his service? 02:29:52 Riastradh: Quick question, what's the parser that will accept whatever input comes in? Parscheme. 02:30:12 That will accept, and yield, a single token, you mean? 02:30:21 If so, it's probably called PARSER:TOKEN or something. 02:31:14 Riastradh: I have a bugged parser:everything, that should take whatever comes in and accept it. 02:32:08 (let foo (read-char port) (foo)), isn't that good enough? 02:32:42 jcowan: This is a parscheme parser. 02:33:21 *jcowan* grovels in his ignorance 02:34:15 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:37:33 abbyz [n=adkulkar@unaffiliated/abbyz] has joined #scheme 02:40:45 foof: Looking over the two languages, it appears that even in the draft of the Woring Group 1 charter, it is required that the small language be a proper subset of the large language, and that the large language reference the small language documents rather than duplicating documents or specifications. 02:42:07 Oh, OK, that's better. 02:42:39 Though it's better to think of the large language as a superset of the small language. 02:44:04 What two languages are these? 02:44:15 Scheme and Scheme 02:45:16 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 02:45:23 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:23 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:32 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD124214245222.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 brx [i=brx@erxz.com] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 certainty [n=david@alpha.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 02:47:53 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 02:48:35 jcowan: The latest from the Scheme Steering Committee. 02:49:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:48 Ah. Where is this posted? 02:52:10 see the most recent post on c.l.s 02:53:14 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176215046.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:54:07 *jcowan* nods. 02:54:20 I was searching schemers.org without success 02:56:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:44 *Axioplase* read scheme-reports.org, and thinks that something good may happen. 03:02:34 And I also think that a scheme-workshop in Tôkyô would be great 03:06:41 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:09:38 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176216057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:20 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:10:34 oh my 03:10:54 not sure I've ever seen that diacritic on Tokyo 03:11:22 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.195.74] has joined #scheme 03:12:13 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 03:12:30 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has quit [] 03:14:06 z0mgs z0mgs! r7rs is out soon??!!!1111!!ones11!!one!?! 03:15:16 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:15:45 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:13 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:40 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 03:31:06 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.195.74] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:42:29 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.246.113] has joined #scheme 03:44:25 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #scheme 03:49:24 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:29 copumpkin: there are short and long vowels in Japanese. I used a hat because I'm lazy, but I should rather top it with an hyphen (Tky) or spell it "Toukyou" (which then would probably make no sens for people who do not initially know Japanese) 03:49:39 yeah :) I know 03:49:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 03:50:21 Axioplase: "macron" 03:50:39 I was going to suggest Toukyou but wasn't sure if it was just some odd convention I hadn't seen before 03:50:40 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-85.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:50:49 I'm always impressed by the pervasiveness of basic Japanese knowledge on the internet. Yet, no one knows how to read the simplest Korean letter ^^ 03:51:01 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 03:51:03 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.246.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:14 Axioplase: I've taken quite a bit of japanese, and studied hangul (if not korean) in my free time (but have since forgotten most of it) 03:51:37 copumpkin: Toukyou more of a litteral transcription rather than an official one (such as Hepburn) 03:51:41 yeah 03:51:54 hangeul is so much fun. 03:52:07 it's so much more logical than either of the kanas :P 03:52:09 And I find Korean more difficult than Japanese 03:53:39 poet [i=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #scheme 03:54:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-68-51-134-164.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:54:58 Hangeul is an alphabet 03:55:02 Pure syllabaries are always weird 03:55:11 -!- abbyz [n=adkulkar@unaffiliated/abbyz] has left #scheme 03:55:16 Axioplase: Also known as "moras" 03:55:16 Rather, monomoraic and bimoraic syllables 03:57:46 You heard about that minority lang in Indonesia that has decided to adopt H as its writing system? 03:57:52 Talk about Abstand! 03:58:23 -!- MononcQc [i=MononcQc@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING NEXT VERSION OF INTERNET"] 03:58:30 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:01:07 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:01:37 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:04:52 Axioplase: I can read Hangul :P 04:05:36 It takes all of 10 minutes to learn the whole writing system. 04:05:50 (of course you need to practice to be able to read quickly) 04:07:14 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 04:08:10 foof: I agree 04:08:45 Of course, actually pronouncing Korean takes a lot more work, given that the spelling doesn't represent morphophonemic changes 04:08:57 I can actually manage te read (ie understand) Korean; but when it comes to listening, it's all greek to me. 04:08:59 I personally think we should drop Latin in favor of a Hangul-like system that can actually represent all sounds. 04:09:07 (similarly to German maintaining t vs. d, b vs. p, k vs. g finally, even though they are pronounced p t k 04:09:17 ) 04:09:34 jcowan: I find Korean not hard to pronounce, but I have a harder time listening to it 04:09:54 foof: To do that, find a way to map IPA to (very extended) Hangeul 04:11:11 if we were redoing Latin a Hangul-like system would be a good idea 04:11:20 I do not think that it's necessary to be able to write distinctly all distinct sounds 04:11:30 Axioplase: it would be nice 04:11:46 Adamant: it would be a 200+ letters alphabet 04:11:48 enable a very universal system 04:12:00 What about Bushmen's language? 04:12:04 Axioplase: sure, but most languages only use a subset 04:12:11 Axioplase: I think clicks are covered by IPA 04:12:14 ask jcowan 04:12:46 Yes, there are symbols for clicks 04:13:09 IPA has separate symbols only in cases where at least one language makes a phonemic distinction. 04:13:16 Finer grades are handled with diacritics 04:15:49 There are about 120 unique symbols 04:17:13 *jcowan* attempts to execute a labiodental trill, without success 04:17:23 IPA can be simplified into basic sounds and variants thereof. 04:17:47 since most world languages have their words marked up with IPA in the dictionary 04:18:01 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit ["off"] 04:18:35 That *is* the simplified version, foof. 04:18:36 I wonder if you could create an "automatic translator" to translate, say, English, or Spanish, into the IPA-dervived Super-Hangul automatically 04:18:55 Not starting from English orthography, that's for sure. From English-as-IPA, sure 04:19:09 However, English orthography has the big advantage of being cross-accentual, which IPA cannot be 04:19:25 *jcowan* 's plan is to fix English orthography while keeping it nicely cross-accentual. 04:19:29 you punt on that one by just doing a lookup for the IPA from the word 04:19:31 Yet, I think that few (if any) Japanese dictionary IPA-spell a difference between "hasi" (bridge) and "hasi" (chopsticks), whereas pronunciation is different (because of "tones(?)") 04:19:43 Pitch accent 04:20:02 yeah. Is this IPA friendly too? 04:20:03 IPA has symbols for that (not included in the count above) 04:20:18 and for lexical tone, Chinese-style and African-style 04:20:50 jcowan: how often does IPA get extended from discoveries in small-population languages? 04:20:58 There are 5 tone letters, 2 stresses, 3 length marks 04:21:01 Rarely, but not never 04:21:10 how do they handle the updating? 04:21:25 -!- Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 04:21:53 btw, does Unicode do IPA? 04:21:59 The International Phonetic Association makes up the letter, they submit it to Unicode, and it gets into fonts. 04:22:12 Yes, absolutely 04:22:17 awesome. 04:22:39 we could create a all-singing, all-dancing, super-alphabet 04:22:57 jcowan: just curious: what's your relation to linguistics and/or languages? 04:23:24 [lk ðs] 04:23:25 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:29 I just like them a lot 04:23:40 as part of my general interest, perhaps, in complicated domains with lots of funky details 04:23:41 I thought you had a degree? 04:23:48 No degrees at all 04:23:51 ah 04:24:01 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:06 did you spend time at MIT though? 04:24:13 I had that impression of you 04:24:23 No, only a few hours talking to Chomsky about Sindarin 04:24:26 ah 04:24:46 (I was sixteen, and he's an extraordinarily sweet and patient fella in person.) 04:24:47 ok, then I've been completely off 04:25:11 yeah I'm sure he's fine to talk to when he's in linguist and not politics mode 04:25:30 Lots of people hate him for his linguistics too 04:25:53 well all the new wave folks do because they have to break him down to get their theories accepted 04:26:02 or so I thought 04:26:20 http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/antichomsky.html 04:26:25 The old wave folks do too 04:27:09 The difference between "hashi" and "hashi" isn't tone, it's more like rythmn. 04:27:55 But nobody I know of, who knows him personally, has a bad word to say about his behavior in person. 04:28:00 Do Americans use the word "bollocks"? 04:28:04 No. 04:28:19 Only when we're badly faking British accents. 04:28:20 We have the verb "bollix up", ultimately of the same origin 04:28:20 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:28:36 meaning screw up 04:28:54 jcowan: as someone who knows a little about machine translation and nearly finished a degree in psychology, the linked rant is full of crap 04:29:15 so, is the anti-chompsky guy making fun of Brits, or is he an expat in California? 04:29:21 he's an Aussie 04:29:27 read it a bit more 04:29:31 For simplifying IPA, you can take this table: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/IPA_consonants_2005.png 04:29:54 And have base symbols for the columns, with accent-like modifications for the rows. 04:30:00 foof: I clearly hear (and pronounce) a falling hashi (chopsticks) and a flat one (bridge) 04:30:55 anyway, the history of psych class I took listed Chomsky as one of the prime movers in the development of cognitive psychology... and he's not even a psychologist, which means that they wouldn't bother crediting him if they could figure out a way to let a psychologist steal all the glory :P 04:31:11 That's at most 24 symbols for the columns (maybe these can be grouped better) and 9 accents for the rows. 04:32:04 For the vowels you have http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/IPA_vowel_chart_2005.png 04:32:30 Adamant: indeed. Though I've had a hard time parsing this last sentence. A nice garden path sentence 04:32:57 :( 04:32:59 Maybe 5 columns and 7 rows, but this can be compressed easier in a Hangul-like fashion where the shape of the character exactly represents the shape of the mouth. 04:33:03 I don't know what that is 04:33:32 Adamant: it's a sentence where your brain has to backtrack to read it properly 04:33:36 ah 04:33:38 sorry 04:33:39 "The horse passed the barn fell" 04:34:02 sometimes I get a bit run-on online when I don't have a chance to edit as much 04:34:10 :P 04:34:54 Where's the garden path? I don't see it. 04:36:19 "and to say what?" "to say that in austrial (whre) will not win your favor" 04:36:29 ah 04:36:37 I thought you were talking about my statement 04:36:45 Adamant: oh, no. 04:37:28 Chomsky very much wants linguistics to be a branch of psych (before his time it was mostly a branch of anthro), a feat made easier by his total ignorance of actual, evidence-based psychology. He did demolish Skinner on language, though, and that needed doing, but that was in 1959. 04:37:32 jcowan: I ended my parse with a "what the heck is this 'will not win your favor' doing here?" 04:39:49 I say "In Australia, where kangaroos do kick boxing, XXX". But XXX in his sentence is actually linked to the "I say", not to the "in Australia". Do you see the issue I encountered? 04:40:32 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:42:07 I see, it's the "that" that's the problem: you were garden-pathed into thinking it was the complementizer, whereas in fact it's the demonstrative pronoun referring back to what Chomsky said. 04:44:04 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 04:45:53 it could just as easily be a spelling error? 04:45:58 you instead of your 04:49:23 I doubt that. 04:50:11 Anyhow, I sent Nick an email about it. 04:50:21 As you can see, he hasn't touched that page in ten years. 04:52:01 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:50 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:55:48 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-195.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:01:41 ofthelesser [n=oftheles@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:02:10 of_the_lesser [n=oftheles@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:10:58 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 05:17:21 Quadre_ [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 05:17:54 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:15 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:18:59 -!- Quadre_ is now known as Quadrescence 05:21:11 -!- ofthelesser [n=oftheles@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 05:24:52 Adamant: It's "The horse raced past the barn fell." 05:27:36 foof: I think that I was the supposed recipient, so I thank you. 05:28:14 Oops, yeah :) 05:29:30 -!- Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:49 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@74.68.154.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:44:48 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:39 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 05:59:52 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:03:23 Two questions, one on design and one on naming 06:03:48 1) For reasons beyond my control, I need a data structure in the nature of an a-list, such that the keys supplied may be either strings or symbols. 06:04:01 Lookup of 'a is the same as looking up "a". 06:04:12 Why? 06:04:19 That is, why aren't the keys all symbols or all strings? 06:04:34 That would take me too far afield. Please take it as written. 06:04:57 Now, if I store the keys internally as strings, I have to use slow string comparison instead of fast symbol comparison. 06:05:11 But if I store them as symbols, I end up interning lots of random strings that won't be kept around long. 06:05:24 And if I use both in parallel, well, it's fast but costs space. 06:05:30 OK, although I'm getting pretty hungry for a pumpernickel bagel, and I'm afraid that the nearest good ones on the planet are no less than a hundred miles away from me. 06:05:35 I'm leaning to the third solution, despite its annoyances. 06:05:41 (Where would that be?) 06:05:48 (New York, where else?) 06:06:44 how long are the strings jcowan? 06:07:05 keys rather 06:08:09 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:10 does it need to be exactly like an a-list, or can you use a hashtable perhaps? 06:11:28 anyways, if a hashtable is possible, I would go for strings 06:11:32 jcowan: Can you at least store the first one or two characters of each symbol? Given a random distribution of letters in names, this can cut down the comparison time pretty well I. 06:14:09 Did you have a question, jcowan? 06:14:57 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:21 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:16:05 two, actually 06:19:24 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has joined #scheme 06:22:53 jcowan: It depends on ratio of strings to symbols, the probability of interning an unused string (not already in the list), the length of the list, the average length of the strings, and implementation details. 06:23:12 So try both and see which is faster :) 06:23:15 Are you using a Scheme that garbage-collects symbols, jcowan? 06:23:57 If so, then I think interning the strings will probably lead to the best performance and the simplest code. 06:25:26 Also, you may want to store the symbol->string'd strings in a hash table, to avoid garbage collecting the strings if the same symbols are often compared to strings. 06:31:27 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 06:32:10 (begin (raise butt) (goto work)) 06:32:28 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 06:36:23 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has joined #scheme 06:38:47 Well, it's several hours past my bedtime now, so, good night! 06:40:32 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:44:25 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 06:47:22 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:48:31 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:54 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 06:52:18 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has joined #scheme 06:52:26 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 06:54:12 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 06:58:00 HG` [n=HG@xdslel094.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:58:36 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:07:30 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:32 fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 07:11:51 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-nyybepymayhwfixy] has joined #scheme 07:15:16 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:28 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:18:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:25:52 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has quit [] 07:26:13 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has joined #scheme 07:27:26 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 07:27:38 what is the accepted filename extension for Scheme source files? 07:31:38 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:33:59 cracki [n=cracki@46-214.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 07:35:23 uman: I think it depends on the implementation, but I've been seeing mostly .ss. 07:36:54 fredlaforge [i=fredlafo@c-71-204-144-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:38:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:41:51 .ss is what PLT uses for library code, I think 07:42:02 .scm is the common extension for regular code 07:43:03 .ss is an inheritance from chez; it's not a plt-specific extension. 07:43:06 .ss is also used by Chez, but it's in the minority. 07:43:16 .sc is used by Stalin 07:43:37 .sls and a few other extensions are used by most R6RS implementations 07:44:21 eli: Thanks for the correction. I've never used Chez so didn't know 07:46:46 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:46:59 if stalin used "ss", that would be *so* ironic :) 07:48:36 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:38 sjamaan: Neither did I, but it was discussed on the mailing list multiple times. 07:48:59 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 08:00:07 ``I do not believe in languages designed by committee'' [Marc Feeley, appointed member of the R7RS Scheme committee] 08:00:10 heh 08:01:19 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@cpc1-acto7-0-0-cust216.brnt.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 08:01:41 sjamaan: I read that as "I want users to design it" 08:02:05 ah, of course 08:02:06 (considering he'll guide, orient, suggest, discuss) 08:02:29 Good point 08:09:46 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:18:48 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:27:24 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:31:16 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 08:32:08 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 08:33:15 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.129.223] has quit [] 08:35:37 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 08:41:35 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:42:37 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 08:45:51 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:47:05 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 08:48:33 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:49:32 -!- fredlaforge [i=fredlafo@c-71-204-144-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 08:52:52 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 08:53:03 underspecified [n=eric@163.221.116.148] has joined #scheme 08:55:06 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-176-232.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 09:03:44 ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has joined #scheme 09:05:31 Is there a procedure that splits a string with a predefined length? 09:06:34 s/with/using/ 09:07:03 SRFI-13 has string-take and string-drop 09:09:17 ugly solution would be regexps matching ^^ 09:11:53 Ok. Thanks. I'll take a look at those. 09:12:48 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:12:48 What's wrong with two substrings? 09:13:58 ah, that would be simpler indeed 09:16:58 rudybot_: seen forcer 09:16:58 sladegen: forcer was seen joining in/on :#emacs one week, six days ago, and then forcer was seen quitting in/on e177145236.adsl.alicedsl.de one week, six days ago, saying "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" 09:17:10 ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has joined #scheme 09:17:58 incubot: tell rudybot_ he has underdash hanging out. 09:18:02 Hanging even. 09:18:25 incubot: hanging odd, doo to. 09:18:28 it doesn't hang, but I also don't see any output (I think the thread is hanging but not blocking... 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It's short, I understand its purpose, I just don't understand some of the parts 13:24:57 to start with, did I do the expansion correctly (i.e., are the two versions equivalent)? second, what is "prop.=>val" ? I've been looking for that, but without luck. 13:26:14 (this is part of a library, so maybe prop.=>val is not a standard Scheme thing) 13:30:01 It's just a really weird-looking name 13:30:06 A name that includes a dot 13:30:41 ...right. Still not used to the idea that . = and > are not special. 13:30:47 :) 13:30:49 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 13:31:13 hm. Ok, so this name suggests a mapping between a key and value. probably a cons pair, yes? 13:31:38 probably 13:31:50 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:03 are the two versions equivalent? 13:32:34 I believe so 13:32:41 oh, yeah--is "list-rest" a standard Scheme thing, or is that more library code? I found some Google refs to it, but nothing in the Guide or Reference 13:32:44 -!- karasiov [n=karasiov@ppp91-122-166-227.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:32:53 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@16.Red-79-150-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:32:56 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@16.Red-79-150-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 13:33:47 I think it's just the local name for the first thing in the prop.=>val list 13:33:54 (I guess it's a three-element list) 13:34:32 ARGH. damnit, it is in the reference. 13:34:34 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 13:34:54 I was looking for it to have its own section, but it's a possible subelement of the "match" grammar 13:35:07 sorry, prop.=>val is not a list of three elements, but a list containing lists of three elements 13:36:20 oh, list-ref is a special thing for match? 13:36:55 yep. http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/match.html 13:37:11 line 6 of the grammar 13:37:54 "| (list-rest lvp ... pat) ; Match lvps consted onto a pat 13:37:56 " 13:38:06 s/consted/consed/ 13:38:30 -!- HG` [n=HG@xdslel094.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:59 how are you telling that prop.=>val is a list of lists where the sublists contain 3 elems? 13:39:31 noh, it's not 13:39:37 I was mistaken 13:41:01 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 13:41:36 btw, the file I took this snip from is here: http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/vegashacker/leftparen.plt/5/1/record.scm 13:41:37 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/lscoq4 13:42:46 hm. Ok, one more question: 13:43:41 he ends the match-lambda with "prop.=>val". but this is running inside a for-each, which will disard the results. 13:44:02 is that line significant in any way? 13:44:09 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:50 it looks like it just returns a value but does nothing...hm. unless it's an identifier macro, I guess? 13:44:59 Indentation suggests it's the second argument to for-each 13:45:24 doh. 13:45:28 right. 13:45:30 The procedure as a whole returns r 13:45:41 that makes more sense. Thank you. 13:47:24 so, this takes a record and a list. The list contains dot-pairs mapping keys to values. The func iterates through the record, changing every key to the appropriate value. It then returns the entire record. 13:47:35 Ok, now I get it. Thank you. 13:48:03 you're welcome 13:48:06 *offby1* whistles innocently 13:48:18 *twisted smile* I'm not used to having to expend so much skull-sweat to understand exactly how an assignment mapper works. 13:48:32 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:55 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:49:36 offby1: did I miss something? or was that the innocent whistle of someone manfully (womanfully?) resisting the urge to mock the n00b? :> 13:51:36 it was me saying "you're welcome" without having expended a jot of energy to help you; and, further, without having even read what you're talking about, except your "thank you". 13:51:46 In other words, a bit of mindless snark 13:51:57 *LAUGH* 13:52:06 I admit, I totally missed who had said "you're welcome" 13:52:18 yea verily, a touch! 13:53:15 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:53:52 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 13:58:37 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 14:00:32 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:01:07 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:10 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 14:02:36 -!- hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:02:47 wingo [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:04:17 -!- wingo [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 14:06:36 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-nyybepymayhwfixy] has quit ["Page closed"] 14:09:24 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:07 MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@92.36.155.215] has joined #scheme 14:13:11 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-39.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:13:17 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:22 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.255] has quit ["off"] 14:18:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:21:59 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:22:26 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:32:09 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:33:43 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:35:00 weekend! 14:48:33 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:54 snurble [n=snurble@83.191.238.2] has joined #scheme 14:52:45 *TimMc* awakes, reads backlog 14:53:56 Don't forget that Chomsky also left his mark on comp sci. 14:57:43 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:25 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 15:00:48 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-214.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 15:03:12 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-122.netcologne.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:12 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:12 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:12 -!- etoxam_ [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-76-112-68-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:13 -!- ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [sendak.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:03:16 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:37 Deformati [n=joe@c-76-112-68-135.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 etoxam_ [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 jyujin [n=mdeining@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 rapacity [n=prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 15:03:40 _Jordan_ [n=jcooper@173-45-228-22.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 15:08:17 r2q2` [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:09:45 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:45 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:54 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 15:10:16 jlongster2 [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:15:36 does anyone know off-hand which scheme implementation well supports C++ FFI interaction?? 15:18:11 Probably none of them. C++ is hard. 15:21:48 well... the chicken docs mentions C++, but doesn't talk in any detail about it... I assume they're talking about "extern" kind of support 15:22:05 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-32.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:22:24 the reason I ask is because I am looking at the OGRE rendering engine. 15:22:29 It's C++ :( 15:22:33 http://wmfarr.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html 15:22:34 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:24:50 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:33 I could use some clarification on the grammar for "match". it's possible to put quantifiers in, which appear in the grammar as 'ooo'. 'ooo' is one of: ... | ___ | ..k | __k 15:26:29 from what I can tell, the '.' and '_' symbols in these quantifiers are completely synonymous. Is that right, or is there any difference between ... / ___ and ..k / __k ? 15:26:52 I think that's right, dstorrs. 15:27:12 Riastradh: ok, good. Are these here for hysterical raisins? 15:27:32 I don't know. 15:27:45 not important. Thanks for the clarification. 15:33:07 mmm.... raisins 15:34:47 hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.225] has joined #scheme 15:35:20 re-a-sins. 15:45:40 in an import line, something like this: (require scheme/list (only-in foo (bar my-bar))) means to find bar, but to import it under the name "my-bar", right? 15:45:59 that is, that syntax aliases a function in the process of importing it? 15:48:08 dysinger [n=dysinger@32.152.8.241] has joined #scheme 15:48:10 (that's what I'm getting from the grammar, but I wanted to check) 15:55:08 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:24 dstorrs: And I think it also indicates that nothing else from foo should be imported. 16:06:50 aha, right. thanks TimMc 16:07:52 dstorrs: You'll want to check on that, of course, since I've never actually *used* imports. >__> 16:08:34 really? 16:08:44 I'm just a n00b who has read a bunch of specs. 16:09:36 heh. We're in the same boat, then. 16:10:06 One of the big reasons I picked PLT was because it has great documentation. The flip side of that, though, is that there is a LOT to assimilate. 16:10:21 skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has joined #scheme 16:10:23 Also, I really wish there was a single-page version of the Guide, and of the Reference 16:13:20 -!- hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:02 p1dzkl: that's a great link.. thanks 16:19:40 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 16:30:59 dstorrs: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/quick/index.html isn't quick enough? You mean like a cheat sheet? 16:31:26 systemical reagents 16:31:28 -!- drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:32:41 synx: no, I'm not looking for a shorter version. 16:32:54 I literally want the entire Guide as one HTML page, to make searching easier. 16:32:57 synx: i thought he meant a single page version, just one html 16:33:04 lol :) 16:33:05 the entire Reference, same reason. 16:33:09 heh 16:33:25 i like them too 16:33:32 makes searching easier, also makes transporting on a flash stick easier. 16:33:32 Oh you mean appended... yeah OK. 16:34:15 There's a javascript search of that stuff. 16:34:16 All on one page. 16:34:17 Not the HTML itself though. 16:34:24 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:34:50 I actually severely dislike the javascript search page. That's what hangs the installation of every planet package, when it has to regenerate that blasted search page. 16:36:02 -!- poet [i=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:37:18 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:41:45 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #scheme 16:43:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ziafrkoyfwjugyuw] has joined #scheme 16:43:44 drwho [n=drwho@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:49:41 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 16:49:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:37 arthurmaciel [n=user@201.80.20.127] has joined #scheme 16:51:40 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:43 hi 16:52:11 is there any difference in terms of space/memory saving if using tail-call optimization or an iterative form? 16:52:26 Riastradh: I was looking at that CTR method for block ciphers... is it sufficient to bitwise-xor an increasing integer counter with the IV, in the same order when encrypting and decrypting? I already employ CBC within each piece, but between pieces... don't want to use the same iv twice. 16:54:58 cracki [n=cracki@134.130.183.101] has joined #scheme 16:58:16 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:44 arthurmaciel: I think all "iteration" in Scheme is done using tail call recursion. 17:03:31 synx: "sufficient" means what here? 17:04:30 Means that people aren't going to be able to recover a recognizable outline of a penguin when I insert it as encrypted pieces. 17:04:35 arthurmaciel, in a language that guarantees proper tail recursion, a tail-recursive procedure is an iterative form, i.e. yields an iterative process. Can you be more specific with your question? 17:04:43 fingerprinting is what I'm trying to avoid. 17:06:07 synx, yes. And you don't need to store a separate IV for each `piece' in order to support random access to pieces. 17:06:07 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:07:32 The thing is if the pieces are a split up encrypted file, I can't decrypt the middle piece for instance. So I've been splitting up the file and then encrypting the pieces. 17:08:31 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:08:44 rudybot_: eval (begin (define (drink d)(display "gulp ")(display d)(newline))(for-each (lambda (beer) (drink beer)) '(amstel amstel amstel)) 'burp!) 17:08:46 leppie: your sandbox is ready 17:08:46 leppie: ; Value: burp! 17:08:47 leppie: ; stdout: "gulp amstel\ngulp amstel\ngulp amstel\n" 17:09:06 not so pretty here, sorry :( 17:10:47 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 17:15:20 ok, I'm not finding anything. 'cut' seems to be well-known but not documented. What is it? Is there a FM on it that I can read? 17:15:32 SRFI something 17:15:34 26 ? 17:16:28 oh, thank the lord. 17:16:34 and thank you too, leppie. 17:16:38 right number? 17:16:43 yep 17:17:02 hehe, just went with was first in mind 17:17:23 heh. Google: the magic oracle that can tell you whatever you want to know...as long as you know enough to ask the right questions 17:19:16 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:50 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:20:26 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:27 TimMc and Riastradh, thanks. 17:21:15 Riastradh: that´s what I exactly wanted to know. I suspected the tail-call recursive optimization would lead to an space economy (although no time economy) as an iterative process 17:26:03 arthurmaciel: OOC, what are you working on where space economy is relevant? 17:26:39 large row-count DB stuff? 17:26:46 dstorrs: on teory of computation. :) (pure knowledge - pure curiosity) [btw, what does OOC mean?] 17:26:56 Out Of Curiosity 17:27:01 Out Of Character 17:27:11 hehe aww 17:27:15 dstorrs: oh, that´s the same reason I´m asking about space economy 17:27:44 synx: another gamer, eh? what systems? 17:28:10 dstorrs: XBox! 17:28:17 *TimMc* ducks 17:28:17 dstorrs: telnet 17:28:37 xbawks is hueg 17:28:50 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@201.80.20.127] has left #scheme 17:29:16 arthurmaciel [n=user@201.80.20.127] has joined #scheme 17:29:32 Ex-bawks: http://cafebombay.co.uk/images/chicken+nugget.jpg 17:29:33 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 17:29:35 TimMc: xbox? is that a block-pushing game for XWindows? 17:29:54 lawd is I in heaven 17:31:00 how different is Scheme from CL? 17:31:04 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:31:34 Lexical scope? 17:31:52 uman: It's 42.5 different. 17:32:11 synx: um 17:32:30 +- 0.1 17:32:43 synx: I'd like to buy a unit, Pat. 17:34:04 uman: it's not that different, aside from some syntactic differences, some guarantees about evaluation order, and the define-dwim-proc command 17:34:14 uman: scheme doesn't have function namespaces for instance. I don't think CL has hygenic macros. Don't really know though I don't use CL. 17:35:21 okay 17:35:31 uman: I'm joking. Don't quote me. 17:36:10 -!- jlongster2 [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:36:16 -!- ebzzry [i=rmm@122.53.87.97] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:36:25 does it make any sense to have *special-vars* on scheme? does dynamic binding works in scheme? 17:36:29 *dstorrs* has this sudden fear that uman is going to sign out and go around believe that there really is a language with a define-dwim-proc command and then be disappointed when there isn't 17:36:36 (define-dwim-proc do-what-I-mean) (do-what-I-mean) 17:36:58 arthurmaciel: What do you mean by dynamic binding, and special? 17:37:10 as long as "what I mean" is "recursively loop until you blow the stack", then that's fine. 17:37:25 dstorrs: there is, it just hasn't been invented yet ;) 17:37:46 ah, so uman is a singularity man. 17:38:18 , man. 17:38:21 synx: I believe in CL the default scope is a dynamic one, not a lexical one. 17:38:40 synx: and in CL there are special variables that are kind of global, if I get it right 17:38:55 I don't really understand what a "dynamic" scope is. 17:38:57 synx: in scheme just there are global and local vars, that is? 17:39:46 synx: You do lookups in the scope of the call instead of the scope of the definition. 17:39:51 It's very silly. 17:39:53 There are local bindings. Global stuff depends on the implementation. Usually they call them "module-level bindings" 17:40:04 More like a VB subroutine, I think. 17:40:32 c.C 17:40:38 So you say (foo (bar) (baz)) and it calls foo, which defines bar and baz, then calls those bar and baz functions, then passes them to foo? 17:41:07 No no that'd just be stupid. What you mean is... 17:41:34 synx, are you arguing with yourself again? 17:41:37 You (define (foo) (define bar 42) bar) and then you (let ((bar 23)) (foo)) and it returns 23. 17:41:48 synx: You're not the boss of me! 17:43:25 synx: I don't think that's how it would work. FOO would redefine bar in that situation. 17:43:32 Or worse, you (let ((bar 23)) (foo) bar) and it returns 42! 17:44:34 synx: (define bar 'outer) (define (foo) bar) (let ((bar 'inner)) (foo)) -> 'inner 17:44:35 I'm really drawing straw men here because I just don't know what it would mean to have a "dynamic" scope. Of course the scope changes, any time you apply a procedure. 17:45:03 ah gotcha. 17:45:32 I had to write an app in ASP/VBScript once, and it appeared to have dynamic binding. 17:45:57 I'd rather not have that, yeah... 17:45:58 There are parameters if you need to do that. 17:46:16 (define bar (make-parameter 'outer)) (define (foo) (bar)) (parameterize ((bar 'inner)) (foo)) -> 'inner 17:46:30 rudybot_: init scheme 17:46:31 synx: your scheme sandbox is ready 17:46:44 rudybot_: eval (define bar (make-parameter 'outer)) (define (foo) (bar)) (parameterize ((bar 'inner)) (foo)) 17:46:44 synx: ; Value: inner 17:47:03 Cute. 17:47:19 Hey! Is that a use for dynamic-wind? 17:47:51 -!- fisheys [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:56 Sort of. parameterize uses dynamic wind, but also parameters have some trickery involving scope between threads or something. 17:48:00 synx: if you haven't used (parameterize ...) would it return 'outer ? 17:48:09 I think if you change a parameter in one thread, it won't change in another. 17:48:15 rudybot_: eval (foo) 17:48:16 synx: ; Value: outer 17:49:00 synx: and if you haven't used (make-parameter ...) ? 17:49:09 rudybot_: eval (+ 1 2) 17:49:09 arthurmaciel: your sandbox is ready 17:49:09 arthurmaciel: ; Value: 3 17:49:33 eval (define bar 'outer) (define (foo) (bar)) (foo) 17:49:34 arthurmaciel: make-parameter takes a value as an argument, and returns a special procedure called a "parameter" 17:49:57 synx: oh, I see 17:50:16 eval (define bar 'outer) (define (foo) bar) (foo) 17:50:23 rudybot_: eval (define bar 'outer) (define (foo) bar) (foo) 17:50:23 arthurmaciel: ; Value: outer 17:51:04 arthurmaciel: along with some special properties, if you call this procedure without arguments, it will return the value. If you call it with one argument, it will mutate itself to contain the new value. 17:51:04 synx: well, at least with dynamic scoping you don't need make-parameter nor parameterize 17:51:05 And if you pass it to the parameterize syntax it will get mutated into the new value, but return to the old value with the semantics of a dynamic-wind. 17:51:15 mm.... SWIG supports scheme, and makes C++ stuff linkable :) 17:51:36 arthurmaciel: But why would you want dynamic scope? 17:51:41 synx: I don't know waht dynamic-wind 17:51:48 arthurmaciel: You don't want variables to change inside a procedure depending on what calls it, unless those are specifically specified as arguments. Otherwise it's hard to predict program behavior. 17:51:57 TimMc: don't know. I'm just trying to understand why CL has :) 17:52:03 arthurmaciel: Me too. 17:52:07 rudybot_: eval (bar 'synx) 17:52:14 rudybot_: eval (foo) 17:52:14 synx: ; Value: synx 17:52:29 I think I remember some anecdote about how the LISP folks kept insisting that lexical binding was too hard/costly. 17:52:57 TimMc: I know Emacs Lisp is designed with that in mind (costly) 17:53:11 rudybot_: eval (parameterize ((bar 'arthurmaciel)) (foo)) 17:53:11 synx: ; Value: arthurmaciel 17:53:14 Here: http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html 17:53:19 rudybot_: eval (foo) 17:53:19 synx: so with paremeterize when the procedure call ends, the parameter returns to its old value, right? 17:53:19 synx: ; Value: synx 17:53:29 arthurmaciel: ^ the beginning of that article talks about the decision a bit 17:53:41 right arthurmaciel, just like if you reset it manually with dynamic-wind 17:53:58 rudybot_: eval (parameterize ((bar 'arthurmaciel)) (bar 'TimMc) (foo)) 17:53:58 synx: ; Value: TimMc 17:54:02 rudybot_: eval (parameterize ((bar 'doo)) (foo)) 17:54:02 arthurmaciel: error: parameterize: expects type as 2nd argument, given: outer; other arguments were: # doo 17:54:04 rudybot_: eval (foo) 17:54:04 synx: ; Value: synx 17:54:15 synx: perfect 17:54:16 synx: thanks 17:54:27 No problem. 17:54:43 synx: which implementation does this bot run? 17:54:52 I been using parameters a ton lately, because they're great for contextual stuff like an encryption context or a progress meter. 17:54:55 So most lisps had dynamic scope, and a few had lexical scope. 17:54:58 rudybot_: version 17:54:58 synx: 4c4cd42 17:55:09 rudybot_ runs PLT-scheme 17:55:12 synx: As opposed to adding extra args to your lambdas? 17:55:21 synx: thanks 17:55:21 easy4_ [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:55:57 Yeah, extra args doesn't quite have the same feel to it I think. If I'm passing and not changing an argument down through several procedures, that tells me it ought to be a parameter. 17:56:08 I believe the standard approach to solving that problem is called "objects". 17:56:15 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 17:56:36 It's a convenient way of passing around a bundle of context. 17:56:40 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:12 *TimMc* finally figured this out after writing JS for a couple years. 17:57:18 parameters don't have to be bundled together though. You could think of the current parameterization as a "context" that gets passed around. 17:57:31 rudybot_: eval (current-parameterization) 17:57:31 synx: ; Value: # 17:58:14 That's an opaque pile of all the parameter settings currently in existence. 17:58:33 But you never refer to it specifically. You only refer to the parameters themselves, independent of each other. 17:58:54 I don't trust the implicitness of it. 17:59:19 I like the implicitness of it... simplifies a lot of the coding I need to do. 18:00:24 To me, dynamic scope is a bug or a hack that needs to be explicitly declared as "in use" by the programmer. 18:00:25 Hey guys, I can't start drscheme 4.2.1 on i686 Ubuntu 9.04, it gives me the error ".plt-scheme/plt-prefs.ss::264559: read: #lang expressions not currently enabled". It's being thrown from /var/tmp/plt/collects/scheme/file.ss:140:0: get-prefs. Google lead me only to a .c file from the DrScheme source code :/... 18:01:11 synx: Parameterizations kind of sound like global variables to me. 18:01:25 With my latest example a parameter that encrypts or just saves pieces. Once I'm in an encrypted context I don't want any of that to be unencrypted by any means. Not unless I explicitly specify. So instead of having (if encrypted? a b) in every one of my functions, I just parameterize it. 18:01:54 They're like global variables, but awesome. 18:02:43 Parameters are dynamically scoped variables. 18:03:05 In Common Lisp, variables are lexically scoped by default. DEFVAR, DEFPARAMETER, and (DECLARE (SPECIAL ...)) cause variables to be dynamically scoped. 18:03:13 synx: Is the parameterization linked to the environment? IE, call/cc will save the current-parameterization? 18:03:16 They don't have to be module level. They could be specific to one procedure. They're more useful at the module level though, really... 18:04:22 danking: it's the same as with dynamic-wind 18:04:23 The current parametrization is stored in the continuation. 18:05:15 PARAMETRIZE does not use DYNAMIC-WIND; the mechanism is subtly different. Instead it uses WITH-CONTINUATION-MARKS or some variation thereof, with which it locally updates the current parametrization (i.e. evaluates an expression with a continuation that has a different parametrization from its parent). 18:05:53 Curious.. 18:06:06 (The difference is observable with composable continuations.) 18:07:59 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:59 -!- easy4_ is now known as easy4 18:11:50 You know what'd be nice about parameterize though, is if it detected that it was called in tail position to another parameterize, and thus did not need to restore the old parameter, and its expression could itself be treated iteratively. 18:12:23 (parameterize ((foo 'bar)) (foo) (parameterize ((foo 'baz)) (foo))) for instance 18:12:39 It breaks proper tail call recursion? 18:12:46 I wonder if that isn't true... 18:13:00 Well parameterize has to restore the old parameter value, so I don't see how that could be tail recursive. 18:13:12 I'll rig up a quick test of that. 18:15:36 man C++ is playing weird tricks with me... 18:15:58 Well by golly. 18:15:58 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/parameter-tail.ss 18:16:33 If parameterize was not tail-recursive, then that should have been a memory buster program. But it's not using any extra memory no matter how high the iterations. 18:16:55 a = b = c; <-- you would expect b to be set right? 18:17:03 It's not a memory buster program, therefore parameterize must be tail recursive :o 18:17:14 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@201.80.20.127] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:31 leppie: ...yes? what's happening instead? 18:18:01 i dunno... it's bugging me, for some reason it stays unset I guess 18:18:03 Oh it's probably because (a = b) = c 18:18:16 whatever operator=(a,b) is returning ain't b. 18:18:20 a has the value of c afterwards 18:18:56 Did I get the order of operations backwards? Hmm... haven't done C++ in so long. 18:19:05 i have no idea 18:19:18 because it's a poopy language of poop! 18:19:49 for some reason i decided to run my profiler for the first time in many months, and I hit a stackoverflow execption.. 18:20:03 never happened before 18:20:14 but I see what is happening now... 18:20:56 My guess is it's setting a to b, then setting a to c, and ignoring b. 18:20:58 if operator=(a,b) returns b then b would get set to c and a to b, but not a to c. Just my guess... 18:21:07 synx, yes, PARAMETRIZE is approximately tail-recursive. 18:21:15 anyways, lets see if the easy remedy works 18:22:40 Well that's awesome then. So if I encrypt an encrypted piece, it won't hang onto the outer encryption key as long as the save completes without using it afterwards. 18:22:42 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:22:55 leppie: a = c; b = c; ? 18:23:31 i was hoping for b = c; a = b; 18:24:14 oh, well that works too 18:24:24 a = b = c; is confusing to figure out... 18:24:29 I like how you can do it in python, a,b = c,c 18:24:43 Or in scheme (set!-values (a b) (values c c)) 18:24:47 Yes, destructuring assignment is excellent. 18:25:01 Or in scheme (set!-values (a b) (values b c)) sorry 18:25:01 I think JS is getting [a,b,c] = foo(); 18:27:02 PHP has... list. 18:27:29 ... 18:27:52 (list $a, $b, $c) = foo(); 18:28:00 What a weird language. 18:28:15 I'd hate to be tasked with writing a PHP parser. 18:31:57 ok maybe not, something else funny going on... 18:34:05 hmm, i think C++ does the right thing, it's just some runtime behavior that has changed 18:36:01 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93.81.176.232] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 18:39:29 arg, comes down to my usage of wcsncmp 18:46:10 patmaddo_ [n=patmaddo@ip68-5-45-222.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:42 is there a pdf (or other downloadable version) of htdp? 18:48:08 hmm perhaps not my code... 18:48:28 -!- snurble [n=snurble@83.191.238.2] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:51 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:54:52 arthurmaciel [n=user@201.80.20.127] has joined #scheme 18:56:08 rudybot_: eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< 2 n) n (+ (rec (- 1 n)) (rec (- 2 n))))))) (rec 4))) 18:56:08 arthurmaciel: ; Value: 4 18:56:09 arthurmaciel: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n" 18:56:31 rudybot_: eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (rec (- 1 n)) (rec (- 2 n))))))) (rec 4))) 18:56:31 arthurmaciel: ; Value: -5 18:56:33 arthurmaciel: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n" 18:56:42 rudybot_: eval eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< 2 n) n (+ 18:56:42 (rec (- 1 n)) (rec (- 2 n))))))) (rec 100))) 18:56:43 r2q2`: your sandbox is ready 18:56:43 r2q2`: error: eval:1:50: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 18:56:54 rudybot_: eval eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< 2 n) n (+ 18:56:54 (rec (- 1 n)) (rec (- 2 n))))))) (rec 100))) 18:56:55 r2q2`: error: eval:1:50: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 18:57:20 rudybot_: eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (rec (- n 1)) (rec (- n 2))))))) (rec 4))) 18:57:20 arthurmaciel: ; Value: 3 18:57:22 arthurmaciel: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n" 18:57:30 rudybot_: eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (rec (- n 1)) (rec (- n 2))))))) (rec 20))) 18:57:31 arthurmaciel: ; Value: 6765 18:57:32 arthurmaciel: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 1 gc time: 0\n" 18:57:34 Eh maybe you should message rudybot instead of flodding the channel. 18:57:37 rudybot_: eval (time (letrec ((rec (lambda(n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (rec (- n 1)) (rec (- n 2))))))) (rec 100))) 18:57:39 -!- r2q2` is now known as r2q2 18:57:41 arthurmaciel: error: with-limit: out of time 18:57:55 r2q2: me or you? 18:58:02 Yes. 18:58:20 TimMc: hah great 18:58:28 r2q2: you? 18:58:51 It's not like rudybot_ is a great choice of REPL, anyway. :-/ 18:59:25 One thing you can do, incidentally, is execute your stuff in a /query to rudybot and then ask rudybot to give someone else a value that you have defined. 19:01:15 offby1: Is there a way to grab rudybot's last value? 19:03:26 rudybot_: give arthurmaciel foo 19:03:26 arthurmaciel: TimMc has given you a value, say "rudybot_: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 19:03:57 rudybot_: eval (GRAB) 19:03:57 arthurmaciel: ; Value: # 19:04:28 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 19:05:16 Neat little bot. I think it needs a few more convenience methods, though. 19:06:23 karasiov [n=ubuntu@ppp91-122-163-249.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #scheme 19:08:24 saccade_ [n=saccade@31-35-152.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:10:20 arthurmaciel: you . 19:12:51 Hey anyone hear about the new steering committee making a small and large variant of scheme? What do you guys think? 19:13:24 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-37-195.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:47 r2q2: I think it's a neat idea. It might help avoid the duplication of effort in coding libraries. 19:14:39 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:15:02 *TimMc* wonders if (assuming the project succeeds) the names will never actually get chosen, and we'll be calling them small scheme and large scheme forever... 19:17:03 Rs7rs and Rl7rs 19:17:22 I wonder what happened to err5rs it seemed to have died. 19:18:12 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 19:18:28 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 19:19:48 Never heard of that. 19:21:42 Ah, looks interesting. 19:26:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@31-35-152.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:38:13 -!- rcy [n=rcy@d207-6-243-119.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:38 bytecolor [n=user@32.155.126.252] has joined #scheme 19:39:28 jimi_hendrix_ [n=quassel@c-98-221-33-74.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:41:33 -!- skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:44:07 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@static-70-108-241-27.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:46 saccade_ [n=saccade@31-35-152.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:53:48 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=quassel@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:55:00 joelmccracken [n=user@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:55:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:55:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 19:56:58 is there a plt scheme equivalent to the python dir() function? 19:57:27 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:57:37 Naturally, we all know exactly what this Python function does, if we're knowledgeable about PLT Scheme and in #scheme. 20:00:28 skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has joined #scheme 20:02:04 -!- skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:02:39 skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has joined #scheme 20:02:49 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 20:04:59 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@31-35-152.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:09:24 -!- joelmccracken [n=user@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:48 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-25-32.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:17:21 Riastradh: the dir() function in python returns a list of strings for each attribute/method on the object given 20:17:43 not that it matters, because the guy is gone now... :\ 20:20:30 jonrafkind [n=jon@rrcs-24-213-141-35.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:20:50 Hah, I would have assumed it was a directory listing function or somesuch. 20:22:32 easy4_ [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:22:39 you'd think... that os.getdir() or something like that 20:22:57 drybowser6 [n=drybowse@ppp-70-226-222-168.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:26 If I were writing an API, I'd call that function "keys" instead of "dir". 20:24:56 well... keys tends to refer to the keys in a dictionary (association list) 20:25:20 like {1: 'foo', 2: 'bar}.keys() => [1, 2] 20:34:57 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 20:35:22 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 20:35:30 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:31 -!- easy4_ is now known as easy4 20:37:48 -!- skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:43:38 skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has joined #scheme 20:45:22 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 20:49:38 Can I do real work w/o ever using setf! but rather just functional code? The 20:49:38 reason I'm asking is that SICP ch3 is ambivalent about imperative 20:49:38 programming....so I'm wondering if I can do real work in lisp being 100% 20:49:38 functional 20:51:28 -!- skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:51:38 seb-, IO operations.. 20:53:23 MichaelRaskin: yes thanks...w/o I/O it seems i can get far since you can do looping w/ recursion however 20:53:44 Yes, computational part can be done in total purity 20:54:08 MichaelRaskin: thanks...it seems like a worthwhile challenge to try to force myself to avoid imperative as much as i can 20:54:20 If "what to do" is pure, "how to do" can be pure 20:54:39 MichaelRaskin: partly it is due to laziness as i wrote a baby scheme implementation and don't want to implement setf! 20:55:00 MichaelRaskin: yet i want to be proud i can do something substantial in it 20:56:48 Fuufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 20:58:25 skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has joined #scheme 21:01:05 poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has joined #scheme 21:03:46 -!- drybowser6 [n=drybowse@ppp-70-226-222-168.dsl.spfdil.ameritech.net] has left #scheme 21:06:19 -!- skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:53 skmidry [n=deekay@59.92.159.235] has joined #scheme 21:07:30 jao: you around? 21:07:47 what metadata does geiser need to be functional? 21:08:17 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 21:08:38 Arelius: at the very least, an evaluation function, and some concept of 'current namespace' 21:08:58 Arelius: from there, it all depends on what you regard 'functional' 21:09:10 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 21:09:16 So, to be direct, I'm looking into porting it to chicken 21:09:52 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:10:06 Arelius: so, as much metadata as is accessible to chicken at the REPL 21:10:45 Arelius: the elisp side of geiser mostly asks the underlying scheme for the data it needs 21:11:42 it seems the plt and guile implementations are rather complete, where should I look for the minimal set of functionality to get chicken running 21:11:50 if you look, for instance, at scheme/guile/geiser/emacs.scm, you'll see the list of procedures that geiser's emacs side knows how to use 21:11:51 -!- karasiov [n=ubuntu@ppp91-122-163-249.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has left #scheme 21:11:53 It'd be nice to have it running before filling out the features 21:12:21 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:12:41 Ok, see that 21:12:41 Arelius: just implement the above mentioned procedures returning an 'empty' value 21:13:05 all of them are called using ge:eval, so that's the important one 21:13:30 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:31 and you need the analog of geiser-plt.el or geiser-guile.el 21:13:40 K 21:13:57 Is everything in geiser-guile.el important to getting it working? 21:14:43 you must provide an implementation, yes. again, it could be a no-op in some cases. 21:14:51 Ok 21:14:55 I see how that work 21:14:57 works 21:15:03 excellent 21:15:21 So a geiser-chicken.el is the only emacs lisp that would be needed? 21:15:33 Arelius: yes. 21:15:42 and an eval binding in the chicken code to get it working? 21:15:56 *jao* nods 21:17:58 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:20:34 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:22:34 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@rrcs-24-213-141-35.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:54 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:33:59 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-106-16-199.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:49 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-106-16-199.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:55 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.155.126.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:48:10 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:25 Sweet got it running with chicken, just erroring all over the place now! 21:59:37 :) 21:59:50 ToreN [n=tore@181.133.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 22:01:08 Do guild modules not import into the namespace by default? 22:01:38 hmm, that makes a lot more sense now 22:07:58 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:08:02 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 22:08:50 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:10:02 jao: what causes emacs.scm to be loaded? 22:11:28 Arelius: the invocation to (geiser-guile-binary) with (geiser-guile-parameters) 22:11:39 s/to/of 22:11:47 defined in geiser-guile 22:13:23 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 22:14:49 it seems to set the Module load path... 22:15:10 and loads the init file 22:15:46 yes 22:15:53 But I can't see what actually loads the eval module 22:15:55 err 22:15:58 emacs module 22:16:18 Ohh... 22:16:21 is that done by 22:16:21 geiser-guile-geiser-procedure 22:17:23 jao: guile does not need to load the module, polluting the global namespace under the user's back 22:17:33 er, Arelius ^^ 22:18:13 Arelius: plt works the same. the geiser support procedures live in their own module and are called from there 22:20:03 lde [n=nnnnnuse@184-dzi-2.acn.waw.pl] has joined #scheme 22:20:36 Interesting 22:21:11 Well, it's no Stalin. 22:21:17 sorry, ww 22:24:21 ohh stalin! 22:24:39 speaking of which, is stalin type info introspectable? 22:25:17 It would be neat to be able to use the stalin type inferrence to document functions. 22:26:28 Nothing about Stalin-produced code is dynamic, or introspectable, or anything else. It engages in deep computations to produce incomprehensible C whose sole mission in life is to Run Really, Really Fast. 22:26:42 And the code of Stalin itself is almost equally impenetrable, even in Scheme. 22:28:01 rdd [n=user@c83-250-159-12.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 22:28:08 In short, it's a nearly unmaintainable dead end. 22:32:26 -!- masm [n=masm@82.154.105.36] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:02 is there a pdf or other downloadable format for "how to design programs" ? I'd like to read it on my computer while on the plane, and I won't have internet access 22:37:25 jimi_hendrix [n=quassel@unaffiliated/jimihendrix] has joined #scheme 22:38:09 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:10 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:40:21 -!- of_the_lesser [n=oftheles@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:41:55 masm [n=masm@bl7-194-253.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 22:43:01 of_the_lesser [n=oftheles@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 22:51:39 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:42 -!- jimi_hendrix_ [n=quassel@c-98-221-33-74.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:19 incubot: i've taken to saying "xor" instead of "or" in conversation for mutually exclusive disjunctions; it pains me, though, that its corollary "ior" isn't as well known 22:59:21 About half or two thirds of these are interpreter expression types -- quotation, a number of different combination types for primitive versus non-primitive operators and different numbers of operands, delays, two or three different lambdas, disjunctions, non-local environment accesses, assignments, and so on. 23:04:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:51 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:09:29 ior? 23:09:38 inclusive or 23:09:48 true or true = true 23:13:58 true or false = ? 23:14:17 = cool explosion 23:14:37 true 23:14:39 obviously 23:14:44 false or false = maybe true 23:14:51 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:15:01 No, that's SQL logic. 23:16:29 A = A: randian logic 23:17:02 salma hayek = donut: dream logic 23:17:05 A = A = A: nathaniel branden logic 23:17:25 anon [n=anon@ip56583baa.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #scheme 23:17:46 false implies true: demons fly out of your nose. 23:17:50 klutometis, ior is not as well known? Au contraire: ior is a very well-known donkey. 23:18:15 His name should really have been changed to Heehaw for the American editions. 23:18:26 (notwithstanding that unfortunately named TV program) 23:18:57 have we somehow entered Young Frankenstein? 23:19:10 HO-JO-TO-HOOOOOOOO! 23:19:19 "Eeyore..." "That's Eye-ore." 23:19:27 *jcowan* laughs. 23:19:49 *sladegen* travels in time. 23:20:01 *Riastradh* laughs in time. 23:20:18 *zbigniew* spits hot fire 23:20:32 *jcowan* transmogrifies into a Paisley Dragon, and breathes confusion. 23:20:49 In most languages ior is just... 'or'. Except English in which it's "and/or" 23:21:34 "Or" is typically ior in English. Counterexamples are offers ("Do you want tea or coffee?" "*Both.") and other situations where the choices exclude one another in some sense. 23:22:07 And/or is just lawyerly overkill. 23:22:27 like "give, bequeath, and devise" 23:22:37 *synx* synx? 23:23:00 *jcowan* offers a hand to stop synx from synking 23:23:19 incubot: rappers 23:23:22 rappers are probably the smartest with distribution contracts 23:23:28 -!- poet [n=poet@unaffiliated/poet] has quit ["leaving"] 23:23:34 I find those counterexamples are more often the norm jcowan. I always have to use "and/or" to specify ior. 23:24:41 I plan to use the phrase "gimme gimme gimme" in my will. 23:26:58 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:31:43 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:37 Riastradh: i was hoping someone would relieve me of that pun 23:39:13 -!- MrFahrenheit [i=RageOfTh@92.36.155.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:19 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Connection refused] 23:41:16 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:54 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:43:12 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:48:44 *jcowan* relieves klutometis of whatever else he may happen to have about his person. 23:49:13 jcowan: oh, great; couple pounds here, couple pounds there 23:49:20 and an extra montblanc fountain pen 23:50:40 -!- of_the_lesser [n=oftheles@cpe-174-100-207-183.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:05 Ewwww. 23:53:10 *jcowan* hates fountain pens. 23:53:31 They drool. 23:59:11 Only cheap fountain pens drool when not abused. 23:59:30 (But any pen drools when abused.)