00:11:17 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 00:20:40 *arcfide* grumbles about buffered I/O. 00:22:41 -!- copumpkin is now known as newbie 00:25:57 -!- Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:12 -!- newbie is now known as copumpkin 00:31:42 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-19-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:32:15 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-19-1.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:53 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:47:34 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-168.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:49:51 -!- rcassidy_ is now known as rcassidy 00:52:04 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 00:56:34 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-105-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:59:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 01:02:02 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:11 The problem with modules is you can't have circular dependencies. So if A:b calls B:a which calls A:b it won't work. No way to import module A without importing module B without importing A... 01:03:04 I liked the way units got around that, by separating interface from implementation. A:b only needs to know B:a exists, but does not need to know that B:a then calls A:b recursively. 01:03:36 synx: What are you writing that has circular dependencies? 01:03:59 I'm writing a sort of decentralized forum thing. 01:04:11 Um? 01:04:38 ...that has circular dependencies? 01:04:55 Could you bring it down a bit more to the specifics? 01:05:02 Actually, wait, I have to go, so...nevermind. 01:05:32 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 01:06:56 bah 01:07:31 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 01:09:42 synx: The DB/Crypto circular dependencies? 01:10:14 Sort of, yeah. Lots of circular dependencies in fact. 01:11:11 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:44 When you import a key, if it's a signature it verifies the signature, then imports its sub-key, and if it's a piece list, then it finds all the pieces in that list and imports each of them in sequence. Otherwise it just imports the key as raw data. 01:12:50 The raw data basic-importer may discover the data is encrypted, in which case it needs to import the pkey to decrypt it. The signature:import has to import the pkey too, to verify its signature. 01:14:17 so decide:load calls basic:load with decide:decide, which calls signature:load, piece-list:load or just copy-port, depending on what format basic:load loads. 01:14:58 If a piece is encrypted, basic:load calls decide:load for the pkey's hash key, recursive as above. 01:16:05 signature:load calls decide:load for a pkey's hash key too, to get a pkey to verify the signature. Then it calls decide:load on the sub-key that signature signed. 01:19:24 Awesome. 01:19:43 An ordinary message would go along the lines of decide:load, basic:load, signature:load, decide:load (the signing pkey), basic:load, copy-port, decide:load (the sub-key), piece-list:load, decide:load (piece 1), basic:load, decide:load (encryption pkey), basic:load, decide:load (piece 2), basic:load, decide:load (pkey for piece 2) 01:19:56 And damned if I can simplify that down at all. 01:20:51 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:21:51 It just needs to call decide:load any time it wants another record from the database, to process the current one. Like each piece of a piece-list could be encrypted, and the key is a record in the database it needs to load. 01:22:01 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-gmojbnpagzxmxbxj] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:33 synx: That's a hell of a lot of roundtrips, potentially. 01:23:36 Yeah... I can just put a recursive counter in decide:load though, to keep someone from injecting a self-referential piece-list for instance. 01:25:00 Mostly there's just one single pathway that any message would follow to load. 01:25:06 They all would start out being signed, and then be a piece-list, where each piece in the list is an encrypted piece that just gets concatenated. 01:25:50 Grr, you answered my question while I was off googling for droste.zip 01:26:10 droste.zip? ._. 01:28:11 woah, freaky 01:34:01 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:36:38 I was going to ask how you were going to prevent that in your system. :-) 01:40:13 In the age of Google, and having regard to U.K. English, "scheme" turned out to be a really bad name for a language. Just saying. 01:40:37 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:52 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 01:47:30 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 01:47:41 jcowan: which regard to en_GB? that the sch in "scheme" might be pronounced like the sch in "schedule"? 01:48:34 No, that "scheme" in en-gb has pretty positive connotations, unlike en-us, so companies and governments are always announcing this or that scheme beginning, what an en-us speaker would call a plan or a program 01:49:18 sheme :o 01:49:20 The top few hits for scheme are the language, with the exception of the second one which is about Ponzi schemes. 01:49:53 But after that you get heds like "Rudd warns of tariffs hit to economy if emissions trading scheme ..." 01:51:41 Perhaps I'd better put on my slightly larger glasses. 01:52:05 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 01:55:05 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:00:37 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:02:52 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:59 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:02 Hmm... I may have to use R eventually. 02:17:19 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 02:20:50 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:21:23 karlw` [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:23:53 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 02:30:16 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-238.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 02:30:44 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:31:27 karlw`` [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:35 So a "unit"... the signature could define several values to undefined. "linking" in the "unit" would set! each of those values to something useful. 02:34:58 I guess parameters would be better than using set! but for reasons I don't quite understand... 02:35:20 Signatures don't define anything, and values are neither defined nor undefined. What? 02:36:07 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:36:24 I'm not talking about PLT units. I'm thinking of how to do that sort of thing in general. 02:36:58 s/values/identifiers/, s/define/declare/ 02:37:24 PLT unit signatures define a weird syntax transformey thing that isn't a first class value I think... 02:37:27 Yeah, identifiers sorry. 02:38:03 A signature is a second-class entity, yes, that exists only at compile-time. It supplies all the information that is needed at compile-time for a unit to use it. 02:38:51 (known in Chicken as an "import library", btw) 02:38:58 What if my program is running and I want to switch one unit for another? 02:39:09 reprore [n=reprore@www.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 02:39:11 -!- reprore [n=reprore@www.trn.dis.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 02:39:25 It's different from modules, jcowan. allows separation of interface and implementation. 02:40:23 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:33 Can you make your question vaguer, synx? 02:40:49 What is that information that a signature supplies? 02:41:17 How is it structured? Where is it? 02:42:34 -!- karlw`` [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:24 A signature contains a list of declarations of names. Each declaration indicates partial information about the name, sufficient to compile code that uses the name. For variable declarations, the name is all that is needed. For syntax declarations, a syntax transformer is also needed. 02:43:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 02:45:41 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:46:07 -!- karlw` [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:17 What I have is a bunch of programs that all use like 6 different units. But the 7th unit changes, and that's what defines each program. Sometimes one of the 6 units needs to be different too. 02:48:22 Could you be less specific? 02:48:32 Can't quite figure out how to do that. 02:48:51 `I have N different units, but the (N+1)th unit is confusing me.' 02:48:53 Try harder! 02:49:01 Sure Riastradh. How's this for less specifics: I have a bunch of programs. 02:49:10 i have a bunch of programs too! 02:49:19 wow! 02:49:31 Programs problems programs problems HELP! 02:49:38 Beat that one. 02:49:50 The (N+1)th unit is different for different programs. It's the unit that exports run^. 02:50:45 OK... 02:50:53 So you link them together differently for the different instances you want. 02:51:01 But the problem is for each program I'm having to specify all the other units too, even though they share them in common. So that's like 5 files that all need to have the same boilerplate synchronized together. 02:51:25 I only change the linking in terms of which unit exports run^ though. The other units remain the same. 02:51:34 You know that you can partially link units, right? 02:51:48 That's what COMPOUND-UNIT is about. 02:51:49 I did try that. 02:52:39 And...? 02:52:54 I partially linked the units, but then I had to manually specify all the signatures this compound unit exported, then manually require all the signature files and specify all the signatures in each of my "main program" files. 02:52:54 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176205032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:53:01 tjafk [n=timj@e176221116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:11 You can make a compound signature, too. 02:53:26 Oh? Didn't know that. 02:53:41 That's what OPEN clauses in DEFINE-SIGNATURE do. 02:54:32 *jcowan* wonders if syntax definitions are hiding in text form in Chicken import libs 02:54:36 Ooh I see now. Let me explore that, might be just the ticket. 02:54:46 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:56:20 Oh, but... some of my unit signatures use the same names for identifiers. I use "save" and "load" a lot. 02:57:06 Well, then you'll have to use signatures selectively. 02:57:09 Or use more descriptive names. 02:59:04 load parses the current input in various formats to find what data to pass to the current output. I don't know of a more descriptive way to represent piece-list:load that reads a piece list, and loads each piece in it. 02:59:35 Running strings on .import.so files doesn't show anything obvious, so the macros probably stored as either list structure or code to generate list structure. 02:59:42 keys:load returns a pkey, whereas decide:load just outputs the data over current output. 03:01:33 but compounding the signatures keys^ decide^ and piece-list^ obviously doesn't work. Oh well... 03:02:07 That's what explicitly qualified/renamed identifiers are for. 03:02:39 Yeah, but they don't allow renaming in the define-signature syntax or in the compound-unit syntax. 03:03:57 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:04:46 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:04:48 jcowan, cleverly, the IMPORT syntax in UNIT forms, which tells what signatures the unit uses, admits such translation, but the OPEN syntax in DEFINE-SIGNATURE forms does not admit such translation. 03:04:59 What I really want is a module full of blank values, plus a procedure to set those values. Then a module of values, plus a procedure to apply those values to the aforementioned value setter. Then I just use dynamic-wind to parametrize that and I've got units. 03:05:11 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 03:05:48 Sure, and then you spawn a thread to do something different, and everything catastrophically fails. Why do you think you want that? 03:05:57 I'm sure PLT does it in a more sensible way though, just not sure if I can work with it... 03:05:57 All this custom syntax second-class compile-time linking is just confusing to me. 03:06:34 Why would everything catastrophically fail? If I'm using multiple threads I'll just have to use thread local data. 03:06:36 Writing code to define variables with uninteresting values, and then writing code to use DYNAMIC-WIND, is tantamount to compiling using precisely the same information that you need to write in signatures. 03:07:31 Riastradh: Clever indeed. Who ordered that, as Fermi said about the muon? 03:07:42 And like I said I could make every value a parameter, instead of using set!. That solves the thread dilemma, but I'm not sure it would work... 03:08:03 Don't ask me, jcowan. Fermi was a lot smarter than I am, so how am I supposed to know?? 03:08:33 But you probably could run rings around him when it comes to Scheme knowledge. 03:08:35 I'm hoping that my algorithm will scale, and my procedure stack can build up quite a lot. If I'm spending all this time calling parameters for each procedure, hm... 03:12:22 I think I want that, because a procedure in one module cannot call a procedure in another module that calls the first procedure recursively. Since they do not separate interface from implementation, there's no way to load one module without the other being loaded. 03:12:24 But if the identifier started as "uninteresting value" and then became a procedure invoking that recursion, it would work just fine. 03:21:26 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:22:09 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:34:00 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:34 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 03:40:22 man I hate the use of #f and #t when they have some use other than just results in a condition. its a magic constant just like anything else so why not define a name for it? 03:41:01 They're rather basic constants. People don't normally bother with (define zero 0) either. 03:41:20 yea but its always not fun to see a function like (foobar #f #f #f #f #f #f #t #f) 03:41:31 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:42:09 Yes, boolean arguments are a different matter, if only because they often end up requiring more than two cases. 03:42:15 and you dont define zero as 0, you name it what its used for like (define invisibile-color 0) 03:42:52 (parodied in the C/C++ community by "typedef enum bool {FALSE, TRUE, FILE_NOT_FOUND} bool;" 03:43:07 theres a lot of ad-hoc datastructures that use #f as a base case, foo is either #f or x,y,z 03:43:17 but then bar is also #f or a,b,c. so #f is used in two places 03:43:34 That's 0 as a code, not 0 as a number. Use :invisible-color instead of 0 in that case 03:44:00 code is data :) 03:44:34 Not that kind of code. 03:45:53 hey yeah... why do they call it a "response code"? Shouldn't it be a "response number"? 03:47:08 It's a code whose value happens to be numeric. 03:49:04 What does it encode? How do you decode it? 03:49:18 with your brain 03:49:27 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:50:57 It doesn't have a precise way of decoding then. It's just your subjective understanding of what "200" means. I don't call that a code. 03:51:18 it means what the RFC says it means 03:51:35 The phrase "1 2 3 4" can be called a code, if when decoding it produces "She sells sea shells." 03:52:06 But the phrase "She sells sea shells" can't be called a code just because it makes our brain think of clams with their tongues tied together. 03:52:08 yes in RFC "1234 lollipop-land" the code "1 2 3 4" has the semantic meaning "She sells sea shells." 03:52:15 It has to decode into something. 03:52:43 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has joined #scheme 03:53:48 Or not, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 03:56:32 jcowan: http://mirror.servut.us/kuvat/meinung/Brilliant_Cigar.jpg 03:57:09 Eric Raymond on a good day, obviously 03:57:49 Compare http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Esr.jpg/225px-Esr.jpg 03:57:52 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ceyh5g 03:58:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:01 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.238.249] has left #scheme 04:01:06 Huh? 04:07:54 I SAID, http://tinyurl.com/ceyh5g 04:08:08 -!- danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-203.autorev.intellispace.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:14 *rudybot_* hands r2q2 a Q-Tip® 04:08:15 danfowler [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-203.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 04:08:28 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 04:09:54 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:38 Thren_ [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:11:06 -!- Thren_ [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:04 abbe [n=abbe@box.of.abbe.who.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has joined #scheme 04:15:21 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:27:56 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:30:11 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.89.226] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:50 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:36:41 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 04:41:41 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:43:38 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:37 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:50:07 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 04:51:29 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-206.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:00:13 Before I write one on my own, is there an srfi or other lib for a cond statement with a multiple-value send (=>) operator? 05:00:24 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 05:01:41 how can I define bar so that it is replaced with its value before the bar token gets sent to a macro? as in (define bar 1). (foo bar) should be (foo 1) 05:02:59 That sounds impossible 05:03:35 by definition of a macro foo cannot know the value of bar, it is just a symbol 05:03:58 bar itself would have to be a value expanded at compile time 05:03:59 it would work if bar was defined in a phase above bar (in PLT) 05:04:03 yes 05:04:11 i guess I could do it with an extra module but thats annoying 05:04:31 I want like (define-for-syntax-for-syntax ...) 05:04:32 In common lisp there is an eval-when statement, perhaps there is an analog 05:04:50 analogue? 05:04:53 hehe 05:12:24 Modius_ [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #scheme 05:12:46 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:22:23 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:56 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:33 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 05:44:01 -!- 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Archeron specbot tonyg minion nothingHappens rudybot snurble npe npe_ Kusanagi saccade Riastradh incubot duncanm m811 poucet rudybot_ Leonidas leppie|work Fufie underspecified_ HG` danfowler1 xwl_ Modius_ sladegen fishey abbe offby1 tjafk saccade_ copumpkin sphex_ chylli dmoerner Adamant kniu stepnem hiyuh Cowmoo tltstc proq roderic 08:14:19 -!- names: foof mbishop eno__ synx elias` Quadrescence rcy Axioplase Poeir dfeuer a-s tessier Khisanth kazzmir ofthelesser etpace_ lde XTL chandler certainty klutometis ment Elly WuJiang easy4 z0d ineiros araujo rmrfchik ray ski poe peddie tarbo_ Deformati bohanlon CSMan leppie joast sad0ur Arelius Adrinael clog gnomon lisppaste ada2358 rotty cky sjamaan jyujin brx TimMc tabe guenthr weinholt r0bby felipe Fade REPLeffect p1dzkl hosh dlouhy rcassidy 08:14:19 -!- names: eli pbusser2 zbigniew shawnps bunz elf rapacity tizoc _Jordan_ mornfall danking 08:16:31 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:16:50 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:17:38 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:18:50 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 08:31:36 To be fair, the 12 entry points to the Chicken web page infrastructure are excessive. 08:32:59 www.irp.oist.jp/trac, galinha.ucpel.tche.br, trac.callcc.org, callcc.org, call-with-current-continuation.org, chicken.wiki.br, I'm sure I'm missing some 08:34:06 klutometis: there are a bunch of dead or dying links to Chicken put out there to confuse the heathen 08:34:52 it's how we keep it from getting too popular for its own good 09:02:44 MyWifeIs19 [n=jw@cpe-24-90-163-114.nj.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 09:04:56 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:05:41 rudybot__ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:12:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:15:24 disappearedng [n=disappea@unaffiliated/disappearedng] has joined #scheme 09:18:41 Hey I am pretty rusty, 09:18:45 (depth 'x) => 0 09:18:49 what is the ' ? 09:19:18 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:20:02 (depth (quote x)) ? 09:20:48 and (apply quote args) => args 09:21:03 -!- rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:23:57 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:01 -!- MyWifeIs19 [n=jw@cpe-24-90-163-114.nj.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:28:07 ok sorry 09:28:48 like i haven't done scheme in almost 2 years 09:29:15 ok for example, http://paste.pocoo.org/show/134935/ 09:29:44 when I try to run it with `mzscheme filllist.ss` I am getting mzscheme filllist.ss 09:29:44 default-load-handler: expected a `module' declaration for `filllist', found: something else in: # 09:31:56 i'm not sure how mzscheme modules work, but if it's just "included" scheme file, try (load "filename.ss") 09:32:36 also (if (= n 1) (symbol) means you want to execute function stored in symbol 09:32:50 try (list symbol) instead 09:33:09 oh man I can't believe I wrote a simple c compile in scheme and now I am completely rusty 09:33:43 and (cons symbol (fillist (- n 1) symbol)) instead of (cons symbol fillist (- n 1)) 09:33:55 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:34:17 haha 09:34:20 or if you are lazy, you can just do something like (vector->list (make-vector n symbol)) 09:34:24 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 09:35:09 I just want to set up my enviornment properly 09:35:14 how do you guys write scheme 09:35:18 r5s5 right? 09:35:45 how do you guys write it and compile and urn 09:35:46 run 09:36:25 wingo-pi [n=wingo-pi@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:40:37 actually I realize it's mzscheme -f 09:40:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:41:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-221.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:46:06 waterh [i=ca4bc813@gateway/web/freenode/x-zdwrndyrilqcihpj] has joined #scheme 09:46:55 masm [n=masm@bl5-105-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:49:38 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58:34 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-179.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 09:58:56 -!- waterh [i=ca4bc813@gateway/web/freenode/x-zdwrndyrilqcihpj] has quit ["later"] 10:00:12 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 10:01:35 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has joined #scheme 10:03:12 ASau [n=user@83.69.240.52] has joined #scheme 10:06:10 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 10:24:34 I think someone needs to write an article on the way Scheme apps are normally developed (or the best way to develop a Scheme app) 10:25:38 That's a very good idea, leppie|work 10:25:47 But the question is, how are Scheme apps normally developed? 10:26:01 I could write a blog post on how I write Scheme apps, sure, but I may or may not be representative :-) 10:26:07 Perhaps I should write a draft, and circulate it for comments. 10:26:38 the way arcfide told me last night is completely different to how I do it 10:27:26 Why *should* there be only one way? 10:27:41 Every developer is different and different things work for different people 10:27:42 I normally use the 'classic' code, compile, debug cycle 10:28:12 sjamaan: perhaps mentioning all the ways, would allow one to experiment with different approaches 10:28:22 aye 10:28:27 That would be helpful 10:28:33 *foof* is shocked to learn that Dumbledore was gay 10:28:44 I dont find the 'classic' code, compile, debug cycle very efficient for Scheme 10:28:45 Who? 10:29:12 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 10:29:12 sounds like a hairy pothead character 10:35:54 hoo, paredit is so wonderful 11:17:28 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:20:37 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:23:40 wingo-pi: is that full of things that makes you wonder? 11:29:18 yes, in the sense that one can wonder before beauty :) 11:42:12 how can I change a commit message in SVN? I gave credit to the wrong person... 11:43:58 With much hair-pulling and difficulty. 11:45:21 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-221.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:43 yeah, I suppose to give you credit chandler ! but I typed gnomon by mistake... 11:46:05 I can change it easy though from home, just hope I dont forget 11:47:07 svn-- 11:47:08 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:47:53 Oh dear. You are not doing much to disprove the theory that gnomon and I are actually the same person. ;-) 11:48:02 I don't really care, though. 11:48:38 Oh, there's a svnadmin command which might make this easier. 11:48:42 http://subversion.tigris.org/faq.html#change-log-msg 11:49:08 I wonder when that was added. I seem to remember more difficulty about this whole process. 11:49:38 it seems no implemented in codeplex's SVN bridge, I'll just change it tonite from within TFS 11:50:25 if you go to 'Log messages' ion TortoiseSVN, you can just right lcik the message box, and select 'Edit log message' 11:50:41 TFS? You're braver than I thought. 11:50:58 TFS works surpisingly well 11:51:42 we use it at work too, and it integrates really nice with Visual Studio, so not hard to learn 11:52:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:54:58 I'm sure, I just tried to use it once myself and quickly discovered there was a world of stuff I didn't want to fuss with. 11:55:59 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 12:04:13 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:06:32 you really need a dedicated knowlegable person to administrate it 12:07:29 incubot: (eq? 'gnomon 'chandler_ 12:07:32 incubot: (eq? 'gnomon 'chandler) 12:07:33 a long time ago I gave up trying to make the linker generate ELF properly, because it doesn't really work. I wrote a new linker back end for a simple image format, containing only the necessary information to load and relocate a T image, and a simple image loader (in Pre-Scheme). I promptly gave up trying to make that work because of problems with gdb. 12:07:33 #f 12:09:37 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:10:11 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:21:06 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:21:46 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:29:36 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:29:36 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has joined #scheme 12:31:30 davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:44:13 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 12:49:13 jedc [n=jedc@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:06:38 -!- jedc [n=jedc@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:03 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:11:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:29:01 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has joined #scheme 13:30:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:33:53 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:28 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:37:14 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 13:45:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:51:19 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@80.65.72.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:40 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-66.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:02:08 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:03:58 bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has joined #scheme 14:10:42 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 14:11:21 sepult` [n=user@87.78.101.112] has joined #scheme 14:11:33 -!- sepult` [n=user@87.78.101.112] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:11:39 So I have a list '(c b a foo bar) and I want to sort it to '(a b bar c foo). How do I do that? 14:12:55 (sort '(c b a foo bar) (lambda (a b) (stringstring a) (symbol->string b)))) 14:12:56 sepult` [n=user@87.78.101.112] has joined #scheme 14:12:57 Works for me 14:12:59 Track down Olin's unfinished sorting SRFI and tweak the reference code for your implementation. 14:13:43 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-32/ 14:14:30 Olin's 32nd unfinished symphony 14:15:03 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-102-112.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:15:08 -!- sepult` is now known as sepult 14:15:14 higepon102 [n=taro@FL1-118-109-37-76.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:15:14 -!- sepult [n=user@87.78.101.112] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:22 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #scheme 14:15:55 yeah alaricsp, but that requires you convert the symbol to a string, and then use string comparison. D: Isn't there something on the order of an integer comparison? 14:15:56 It doesn't even have to be alphabetical order, just some well defined order. 14:17:36 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 14:17:49 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 14:18:10 Ah 14:18:24 synx, you could just replace alaricsp's comparison predicate with synxs-favourite-comparison-procedure. 14:18:32 Yeah 14:18:47 But I'm not sure what (portable) symbol ordering there would be other than their string forms 14:19:04 I'm sure implementations will give us access to symbol hashes or memory addresses or something, though 14:19:31 Hmm, might as well use PLT namespaces though if I'm being implementation specific. 14:20:43 Plugh? What do namespaces have to do with imposing a general sorting order on symbols? 14:23:25 Well, namespaces are an unspecified mapping of symbol to value. I only need a sorted a-list, but that's basically what I'm going after. 14:29:46 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:34 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 14:37:16 rudybot__: eval (sort '(foo bar bleh) stringstring #:cache-keys? #t) 14:37:18 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 14:37:18 eli: ; Value: (bar bleh foo) 14:37:36 synx: That saves converting symbols over and over. 14:37:51 But you can also do this: 14:37:55 rudybot__: eval (sort '(foo bar bleh) < #:key eq-hash-code) 14:37:55 eli: ; Value: (bar foo bleh) 14:37:59 That's true, hm... 14:38:11 eq-hash-code there you go! 14:38:52 Or instead of namespaces you can use a hash table (which is lighter) than a namespace 14:39:57 rudybot__: (define get-id (let ([t (make-hasheq)]) (lambda (x) (hash-ref! t x (hash-count t))))) 14:39:57 eli: eh? Try "rudybot__: help". 14:40:04 rudybot__: eval (define get-id (let ([t (make-hasheq)]) (lambda (x) (hash-ref! t x (hash-count t))))) 14:40:12 rudybot__: eval (sort '(foo bar bleh) < #:key get-id) 14:40:12 eli: ; Value: (bar foo bleh) 14:40:23 rudybot__: eval (sort '(bleh foo bar) < #:key get-id) 14:40:23 eli: ; Value: (bar foo bleh) 14:42:57 rudybot__: ghost rudybot 14:43:00 rudybot__: nick rudybot 14:43:00 -!- rudybot__ is now known as rudybot 14:43:25 rudybot: defalias ghost nick 14:43:25 eli: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:43:40 rudybot: stop shouting 14:43:40 eli: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:43:55 rudybot: S-T-O-P S-H-O-U-T-I-N-G-! 14:43:55 eli: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:44:00 Naturally I should make rudybot change his own nick as needed, but ... I've never gotten around to it 14:44:19 _He's_ not shouting; _you're_ mumbling. Speak up! 14:44:20 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:44:46 How do the `_'s get there? 14:46:08 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 14:46:43 I _type_ them. 14:46:45 Like _this_. 14:47:58 "there" = to the end of rudybot's nick. 14:48:04 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:48:25 Steele^ [i=steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 14:48:49 hi schemers. Is it possible to (case) check for a string? 14:49:11 (define TempNote "c") 14:49:11 (case TempNote (("c") (display "lol")) (else (display "error"))) 14:49:14 does not work 14:49:35 what does not work? 14:49:52 it does not give "lol" 14:50:21 what Scheme? 14:50:23 it gives error. And I don't know how to check for string 14:50:25 Guile 14:50:26 Steele^: `case' is stupid like that, use `cond'. 14:50:38 complain to wingo-pi :) 14:50:44 Steele^, the root of the problem is that two strings aren't EQV? to each other. 14:50:58 leppie|work: there's no complaining to do. 14:51:03 both a are constant strings, so ideally they should point to the same memry location 14:51:19 *gnomon* shrugs 14:51:22 Just tellin' it like it is. 14:51:32 zeroish [n=zeroish@135.207.174.50] has joined #scheme 14:51:34 *wingo-pi* agrees with gnomon 14:51:57 leppie|work: I don't know of any implementation that does that; and OTOH I *do* know of some code that use the identity of "foo" as a unique value (wrt `eq?'). 14:51:58 so its not possible with case to see if a string matches 14:52:02 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:52:09 Steele^: your solution seems to be to use symbols instead of strings 14:52:16 ZachBrown [n=ZachBrow@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:48 Can someone help me figure out how to upload a file to an FTP server with scheme? 14:52:49 Steele^, you should use a COND, as eli suggests, and look into the STRING-EQUAL? predicate. 14:52:49 leppie|work: Ok, I will look into that. I'm still learning. 14:52:51 eli: oh, those __s. Those come from netsplits, I guess. The bot gets disconnected, reconnects, discovers that he cannot use his first choice of nick, and therefore tries the same nick but with some _ appended. 14:52:59 eli: my underlying platform does that, but I kinda limit that to only constant strings 14:53:31 I am new to Scheme, and need this for a project. 14:53:57 leppie|work: "kinda" is a frightening word in programming. 14:54:05 thanks all. 14:54:09 i know :| 14:54:23 rudybot: eval: (let ((TempWork "c")) (cond ((string=? TempWork "a") 'foo) ((string=? TempWork "b") 'bar) ((string=? "c") 'baz) (else 'error))) 14:54:24 gnomon: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 14:54:35 rudybot: eval (let ((TempWork "c")) (cond ((string=? TempWork "a") 'foo) ((string=? TempWork "b") 'bar) ((string=? "c") 'baz) (else 'error))) 14:54:36 gnomon: your sandbox is ready 14:54:36 gnomon: error: string=?: expects at least 2 arguments, given 1: "c" 14:54:42 *gnomon* facepalms 14:54:45 Please help me! 14:54:46 lol 14:54:49 offby1: In that case it will probably take some work, since the rename might not work after a while -- but if you try the _s in order, then a second split will get it back to just one _. 14:54:55 rudybot: eval (let ((TempWork "c")) (cond ((string=? TempWork "a") 'foo) ((string=? TempWork "b") 'bar) ((string=? TempWork "c") 'baz) (else 'error))) 14:54:55 gnomon: ; Value: baz 14:54:56 ZachBrown: fork a subprocess that runs an ftp client. 14:55:09 lol offby1 was just say the same :) 14:55:23 just going to say the same... 14:55:34 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [No route to host] 14:55:39 offby1: Scheme cannot just upload the file itself, like Python? 14:55:58 ZachBrown: I suppose it could, in theory, if your scheme had an ftp client library somewhere. 14:56:05 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:56:11 (Python has a built-in ftp client?) 14:56:18 So I should google for an FTP library for scheme. 14:56:30 I would have done that in the first place 14:56:35 no ZachBrown , search for a ftp library for YOUR scheme 14:56:39 OK, thanks 14:56:41 ZachBrown, well, it would probably be faster to grep the documentation of your implementation, or use its built-in search feature. 14:56:55 Oh? 14:57:00 what is your scheme ZachBrown ? 14:57:13 ZachBrown: I predict you won't find an FTP library. I stick with my original recommendation (and leppie|work's): invoke an ftp client _program_ in a subprocess. 14:57:30 Quadrescence [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 14:57:30 Steele^, did the COND example I had rudybot eval above there help out at all? 14:57:35 offby1, ZachBrown: here's one: http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/3/ftp 14:57:52 offby1, I believe that you're required to challenge mario-goulart to a duel now. 14:57:53 offby1: the FTP protocol is rather simple is it not? 14:58:12 I have Dr. Scheme, but I can trade out with chicen if that would be better. 14:58:44 *offby1* hands mario-goulart a cheese plate 14:59:08 *mario-goulart* picks one 14:59:22 gnomon: I just looked up in "Teach youself scheme in fixnum days". Anything already works like exspected with COND 14:59:27 hmm, PLT scheme has a "net/ftp" module. 14:59:57 where would I find that? 15:00:00 ZachBrown: actually I tried to do a similar thing during the last two weeks. I wrote a client for the MediaWiki API. 15:00:26 -!- higepon102 [n=taro@FL1-118-109-37-76.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:30 It ended up in using a small lib in our underlying C program that sends http messages. 15:00:56 OK, so... What exactly is Scheme good for? 15:01:04 I can't seem to find a reason. 15:01:17 ZachBrown: it's not good for anything! You've discovered our dirty secret 15:01:24 lol 15:01:25 Now we must kill you 15:01:26 ZachBrown: so offby1 is probably right. Search/Build a very basic ftp client that just sends what you give as parameters in Scheme then 15:01:46 ZachBrown, Scheme is particularly good for allowing you (where "you" is "a general programmer") to express your -exact- mental model of a program, while getting in your way as little as possible. 15:01:47 Scheme is a perfect topic for trolling, for example. 15:02:00 mario-goulart: amen! 15:02:10 Scheme is a both a dessert topping and a floor wax! 15:02:29 no, it's just a floor wax. 15:02:36 but, can I build GUIs with it? 15:02:41 j'accuse gnomon of being at least 40 15:02:47 ZachBrown: depends on the scheme. 15:02:58 some have decent GUI libraries; others not so much. 15:03:01 Which do you reccomend? 15:03:03 PLT 15:03:27 I too recommend PLT 15:03:57 That is what I have, know where I could find a tutorial on building GUIs with scheme? 15:04:03 JUST GUIs 15:04:25 thanks all. If you are interested in Music/Notation please check out http://www.denemo.org . GNU Software with GUILE build-in. 15:04:28 I like chicken... but that's because I don't do GUI programming :-) There's GUI eggs, but IIRC they're not maintained so well, unless somebody fixed them lately. 15:04:48 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:47 *gnomon* hides from offby1 15:08:29 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:08:46 *chandler* sticks offby1 in the bass-o-matic 15:10:47 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 15:10:56 -!- Steele^ [i=steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has quit ["leaving"] 15:13:48 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:15:35 ZachBrown: http://docs.plt-scheme.org 15:15:39 or your local copy thereof 15:15:54 chandler: mm, that's really great bass, chandler. 15:16:05 :-) 15:16:24 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:25 *offby1* was pleased that the new movie "Julie & Julia" includes the complete Dan-Akroyd-as-Julia-Child sketch 15:16:42 which, so says the review, Ms Child greatly enjoyed 15:19:51 OK, found it thanks, offby1! :) 15:20:15 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-112.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:21:32 but, when I use this code, (define frame (new frame% [label "Hello World!"])), it says: reference to an identifier before its definition: new 15:24:00 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 15:24:58 ZachBrown: Use the module language (always), and make sure that the first line of your code says `#lang scheme/gui' 15:26:12 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:28 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:12 Ok 15:30:14 incubot: is scheme good to you? 15:30:18 Looks good in Opera. 15:30:35 incubot: eat Soap! 15:30:38 there's this whole industry of overpriced soap 15:30:42 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:31:51 Egads! Is incubot Tyler Durden? 15:32:06 now it says module name is not defined. 15:32:10 how do I define it? 15:36:58 incubot: is your name Tyler Durden? 15:37:01 oh, i thought that was what tyler durden said to "tits" in fight club 15:37:46 incubot: soapy tit opera? 15:37:49 Soapy water, on the other hand... ;) 15:38:36 This is going downhill pretty quickly. 15:39:28 I put the first line of my code to: #lang scheme/gui, and it says that module is not defined. It highlight #lang in red. 15:41:23 gnomon: but at least it's hygienic. 15:43:18 -!- ZachBrown [n=ZachBrow@c-76-22-197-170.hsd1.ky.comcast.net] has quit ["You´ll wish that you had done some of the hard things when they were easier to do."] 15:45:35 Dan-Akroyd-as-Julia-Child? 15:45:55 That's disturbingly easy to picture. 15:46:35 Hello foof. 15:46:47 Do you have any plans to add exact rationals to chibi? 15:47:16 I was debating it. It's likely. Imaginary numbers are unlikely, however. 15:48:17 That's good. I don't have a very robust imagination. 15:49:35 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:50:34 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:07 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:52:27 we have equations 15:52:38 (err, sorry wrong window) 15:53:05 sphex [n=nobody@74.56.185.239] has joined #scheme 15:55:31 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 15:55:41 we have equations too 15:55:52 just no imaginary ones :P 15:56:19 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 15:57:25 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:43 Mathematics gets easier when you go complex 15:59:45 is there any scheme equivalent of lisp's dolist ? 16:00:40 oops, i can use map and other functions 16:00:44 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 16:03:37 So I was playing with the idea of units... came up with something like this: https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/unity/example.ss 16:03:38 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:03:47 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/unity/unit.ss 16:03:47 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 16:04:28 I'm not sure it's useful at all, but just a bit different from how PLT units work. Trying to separate interface from implementation, to allow recursive dependencies. 16:04:39 Or trying to understand how that could work, at least. 16:05:58 -!- nothingHappens [n=nothingh@173-25-176-111.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:06:33 Just a bunch of parameters pretty much... like a parameter group, or something... 16:07:24 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:47 poe: Math gets easier, the Scheme implementation doesn't. 16:15:07 lisppaste: url 16:15:07 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 16:15:20 -!- poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:15:27 leppie pasted "better chandler?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/85595 16:15:48 hey chandler, is that what you meant? 16:17:02 poucet [n=poucet@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:18:06 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 16:21:08 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:55 leppie: I'm on the phone, but briefly: the lit=? definition is still broken, and I think you should take the right-hand side of the generated `let-syntax' and pull it out into an ordinary function 16:25:22 I did that, but that implies 2 unnessary indirections 16:25:53 remember I have the slowest compiled Scheme ever! 16:26:24 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:26:55 This should all be at macroexpansion time - is it really that critical? 16:28:01 to me, yes :( (well not that much, but I understand what you are saying) 16:28:44 what I want to know is about the 'brokenness' of lit=? what's the alternative and it's issues? 16:29:38 I think you're trying to make it so that (let ((= ...)) (with-clr-type ... (obj = ...))) works (with = not being shadowed by the outer binding), correct? 16:29:55 yes 16:30:13 and 'inner' binding of = should not interfere 16:30:14 But what about (with-clr-type ... (let ((= ...)) ... (obj = ...))) ? 16:30:28 that should work the same 16:30:44 That's what I mean by "broken" :-) 16:30:58 why is it broken? 16:31:03 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:06 it works like I want to 16:31:09 not? 16:31:56 within (obj ...) I define my own mini-language (except for values) 16:33:09 I realise there are benefits to going with a hygienic approach (and I have so used them all the the time in my code), but in this specific case I am leaning the other way 16:33:46 it's a helper mostly for people coming from C#/.NET 16:34:00 or coding with such classes/instances 16:34:29 what benefit would hygiene provide me here? 16:34:47 Still on the phone - it seems right to me to treat these like introduced bindings, meaning that inner bindings would still shadow the use as a literal. In practice, I doubt this will matter either way. 16:34:59 besides making it very unobvious for a beginner to see why = is not behaving like = anymore 16:35:00 HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has joined #scheme 16:35:21 carry on speaking (on the phone) 16:35:27 im here for quite a while 16:37:27 using hygiene in a library would things worse wrt exports of auxiliarry syntax 16:38:00 wingo-pi: ping 16:39:15 i want it to be a helper, not a hamperer 16:40:41 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 16:41:16 eli: pong, somewhat asynchronously. what's up? 16:42:06 wingo-pi: Do you have any interest with that GC discussion? 16:42:30 s/with/in/ 16:43:51 eli: guile's gc discussion? 16:43:57 yes. 16:44:24 i do care, if that's the question -- i don't know what the right answer is tho 16:44:56 wingo-pi: In that case I can give you a much better reason why a conservative GC is a really bad idea. 16:45:07 i'm all ears :) 16:45:16 (I can also give you reasons for it, but that's probably nothing you don't know.) 16:45:53 So, it's just that the problem that we had in PLT came up, and someone just said that he hopes that this is a rare case -- and that particular problem was not too frequent. 16:46:25 But the most obvious problem this was leading too was when you deal with a long (or infinite) lazy stream. 16:46:56 In this case, you keep forcing the cdrs down the list, and you will be careful not to hold a reference to the head of the list so that it can be GCed while you do your loop. 16:47:38 But with a conservative GC it is enough for *one* mistake that holds onto an item in the yet-to-be-gced part of the list, and from that point on nothing will ever be freed. 16:47:59 is function currying supported in any of the dialect of Lisp ? 16:48:18 This makes this particular (and not too obscure) functionality hopelessly broken. 16:48:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:49:11 (BTW, this has also lead to making mzscheme safe for space, which took a while, since there are tricky cases involved.) 16:49:19 For those of you to whom paredit is wonderful: I still solicit feedback about the patches in , about which there has been very little. Also, if you did give me feedback, it might be helpful to give it again, because I have heard so little about those that I have forgotten any feedback I did receive. 16:49:36 eli: what do you mean by "safe for space" ? 16:50:06 A conservative GC is a bug. Please don't inflict it upon your users. 16:50:24 wingo-pi: say that you have (define (scan stream) (let loop ([x stream]) ...do stuff with the head... (loop (stream-cdr stream)))) 16:50:45 wingo-pi: in this case, you want the compiler to release the `stream' reference while the loop is done. 16:51:06 (Did you mean (stream-cdr x) there, or was this to be an example of a mistake?) 16:51:13 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:51:14 If you don't do that, then again you're running into the same problem -- making an infinite loop there impossible. 16:51:29 Riastradh: Yes, I meant `x', that was a bug. 16:51:49 truth and falsity are just the strings "#t" and "#f" and have NOTHING to do with empty list () right? 16:51:56 The point is that `stream' is no longer needed, so it should not be kept via a reference. 16:51:57 They are not strings, seb-. 16:52:09 Riastradh: what are they? 16:52:13 But you are right that they have nothing to do with the empty list. 16:52:22 They are boolean objects. The only disjoint type predicate to which they answer true is BOOLEAN?. 16:52:54 Riastradh: what was wrong w/ the historical deal of using () for falsity? 16:53:13 seb-, it led to confusing code and bugs. It also led to tofu. 16:53:27 But what if I like tofu? 16:53:38 Too bad, vegan scum! 16:53:55 We will assimilate you and your pointy ears! 16:54:21 *gnomon* examines Riastradh's tea mug for foreign contaminants 16:54:37 eli: lazy lists are like lists of length N, if N elements have been forced, no? 16:54:40 (See , by the way. Search for tofu.) 16:54:59 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ptjv9z 16:55:02 (MIT Scheme has distinguished #F from () for some years, but it didn't when that code was written.) 16:55:08 wingo-pi: lazy lists as in (define ones (cons 1 (delay ones))) 16:55:39 right, like sicp's streams. ok. 16:55:49 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.160] has joined #scheme 16:55:53 (It's the Vegans^WVulcans who have pointy ears, right?) 16:56:03 wingo-pi: Yes. 16:56:07 (Or are those the Klingons?) 16:56:17 you mean (ones), no? 16:56:22 (I'm pretty sure there were no elves involved.) 16:56:25 ah no 16:56:36 :) 16:56:38 wingo-pi: And with lazy evaluation, then are really nice in unifying lists and iterator ranges, as in haskell. 16:56:47 s/then/they/ 16:56:52 And no, no parens. 16:57:01 rudybot: init lazy-scheme 16:57:01 eli: error: lazy-scheme: standard-module-name-resolver: collection not found: "lazy-scheme" in any of: (#) in: lazy-scheme 16:57:08 rudybot: init lazy 16:57:08 eli: your lazy sandbox is ready 16:57:30 rudybot: eval (define fibs (list* 1 1 (map + fibs (cdr fibs)))) 16:57:33 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ivkxnnefqohnwczi] has joined #scheme 16:57:36 rudybot: eval (take 20 fibs) 16:57:37 eli: ; Value: (1 . #) 16:57:43 rudybot: eval (! (take 20 fibs)) 16:57:43 eli: ; Value: (1 . #) 16:57:46 rudybot: eval (!! (take 20 fibs)) 16:57:46 eli: ; Value: (1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765) 16:59:44 -!- seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 17:00:02 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable239.185-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:00:11 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 17:01:37 EnglishGentv2 [n=pumpkin@173-124-230-59.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:35 -!- EnglishGentv2 is now known as contrapumpkin 17:06:13 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.210.197] has joined #scheme 17:07:44 -!- HG` [n=HG@85.8.91.88] has quit [Client Quit] 17:07:54 -!- sphex [n=nobody@74.56.185.239] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:36 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 17:13:24 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:41 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:27 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05595F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:30:05 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 17:40:52 -!- contrapumpkin is now known as copumpkin 17:43:38 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 17:58:08 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:00:47 mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 18:02:26 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:24 -!- abbe [n=abbe@box.of.abbe.who.is.a.member.of.pirateparty.in] has quit [] 18:12:12 sleepydog [n=user@64.252.12.149] has joined #scheme 18:29:54 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [] 18:29:59 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:40:51 -!- danking is now known as _ 18:41:20 -!- _ is now known as Guest75481 18:42:05 -!- Guest75481 is now known as danking 18:43:07 jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:20 -!- jeapostrophe [n=jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46:39 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 18:49:00 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@173-124-230-59.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:02:44 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-lstbbnixxdjeyreb] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:07:33 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #scheme 19:19:39 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-105-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:20:24 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:00 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 19:22:52 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 19:47:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:57 *TimMc* imagines a spreadsheet app with Scheme formulas 19:54:07 Didn't SIAG do that? 19:54:09 TimMc, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scheme+in+a+grid 19:54:13 heh :) 19:54:23 *gnomon* punches sjamaan in the shoulder 19:54:27 You owe me a beer. 19:54:31 *sjamaan* grins stupidly 19:54:53 gnomon: If I only I had remember to Google for that phrase I had never heard of... 19:55:46 OpenOffice has pluggable extension languages, I believe 19:56:29 Oh. SIAG is SIOD. I thought it was based on something halfway decent, for a minute. 19:57:11 Well, the name is a dead giveaway ;) 20:00:58 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-191.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 20:04:33 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit ["bye"] 20:12:42 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-101-112.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:13:00 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs137104.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:36 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 20:19:05 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-66.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:46 -!- weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit ["Changing server"] 20:19:48 weinholt [i=weinholt@gula.csbnet.se] has joined #scheme 20:20:12 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:20:21 jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:34 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 20:28:58 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:32:49 drwho [n=d@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:50 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:24 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:34:31 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 20:47:24 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:51:31 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has quit ["leaving"] 21:01:30 dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has joined #scheme 21:04:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-163-86.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:18 Woohoo, more RAM. 21:08:51 minion: chant 21:08:51 MORE RAM 21:11:21 *arcfide* pats minion on the back. 21:12:00 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05595F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:12:37 *arcfide* muses about his brand new mod_lisp library. 21:14:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 21:16:14 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 21:17:32 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:18:05 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@31-34-185.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 21:18:40 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 21:26:36 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-137-240.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:07 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@206.80.252.37] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:23 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:43:25 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.210.197] has left #scheme 21:43:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:45:57 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:49:04 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [] 21:52:37 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:25 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@31-34-185.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [] 21:59:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@71.20.35.99] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:26 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:02:26 Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:02:56 Can somebody recommend me a good Scheme reference and tutorial? 22:03:05 There are too many links in the topic. ;) 22:09:25 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@31-34-185.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:10:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-247.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:12:04 segoe [n=segoe@83.231.16.41] has joined #scheme 22:12:16 hi 22:14:01 -!- jao [n=jao@31.Red-83-33-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:58 Repentinus: What kind of background are you coming from? 22:22:53 C++, PHP, Python mainly. 22:23:05 I'll go to grade 10 out of 12 this year. 22:23:25 I have some experience with algo competition programming. 22:23:47 I'm using Linux, I like to learn coding by doing. 22:26:01 synx, anything else you are interested in? 22:27:22 Well it sounds like you've got a background similar to mine, minus the PHP of course. 22:28:14 I'd start with the PLT tutorial. And do recognize that Scheme is a language about as much as XML is... there are different flavors. 22:28:38 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/getting-started/index.html 22:28:56 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/index.html 22:29:22 PLT may have its bad sides, but being poorly documented is not one of them. 22:29:38 any irc bot that can evaluate code in the channel like the one here? 22:29:51 i would like to have one on other network :) 22:30:45 synx, thanks. 22:32:18 I think that it should be easy enough to follow, considering that I have a starting project. 22:32:21 dysinger [n=dysinger@98.246.183.155] has joined #scheme 22:32:23 segoe: rudybot is offby1's so you could ask him. I forget who runs incubot. 22:32:44 What are you thinking of trying, Repentinus? 22:33:08 Module based IRC bot. 22:33:36 Core would be the connection + logging everything in channel to XML/SQL DB. 22:33:44 Oh, okay. 22:33:45 Everything else would be added by modules. 22:33:47 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:59 synx: i took a look in github on rubybot code, but seems really tailored to this channel and a not really general purpose (i mean, no readme, no instructions and a lot of code i can't really get working) 22:34:22 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:34:28 At least you might be able to use the IRC protocol code from it. 22:34:38 in fact, the best thing would be a bot that can run other procceses and comunicate with them 22:34:48 segoe, there's an open source bot called geordi for C++. You should take a look at it too. 22:34:52 so i could use any interpreter (i'm thinking also on clozure and such) 22:35:07 Repentinus yes, i know, i just can't help myself with haskell 22:35:10 :P 22:35:38 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@31-34-185.wireless.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:38 synx: yes, that's what i'm trying, hopefully i can take the bits i need from it 22:50:38 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 22:51:25 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:06:58 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176221116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Client exiting"] 23:07:21 tjafk [n=timj@e176221116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:12:26 -!- Repentinus [n=Repentin@209.163.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:29 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:24:52 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:26:59 -!- ment [i=thement@ibawizard.net] has quit ["->"] 23:32:49 *jcowan* ittywhonks and all that 23:33:08 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:35:56 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 23:39:23 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:43:59 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:49 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:43 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-191.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:47 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:53:52 -!- mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:34 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme