00:00:05 rudybot: eval (null? '()) 00:00:06 rotty: ; Value: #t 00:00:10 rudybot: eval (length '()) 00:00:10 rotty: ; Value: 0 00:00:46 merimus: '() is shorthand for (quote ()), which *evaluates* to the empty list 00:01:09 which is not ( 'nill . 'nill ) 00:01:53 merimus: no, that'd be a cons cell with two identical symbols in its CAR and CDR 00:02:41 hmm, so a list with one element is ( 12 . 'nill ) 00:02:53 but a list with no elements in '() 00:03:13 rudybot: eval '(12 . ()) 00:03:13 rotty: ; Value: (12) 00:03:30 merimus: 'nill is just a symbol 00:04:07 rudybot: eval '(12 . 'nill ) 00:04:07 merimus: your sandbox is ready 00:04:08 merimus: ; Value: (12 quote nill) 00:04:18 ok, so that's different 00:05:52 rudybot: eval '(12 . nill) 00:05:52 TimMc: your sandbox is ready 00:05:53 TimMc: ; Value: (12 . nill) 00:06:31 (in Common Lisp, nil is a variable bound to the empty list, but there's no such binding in Scheme) 00:06:59 nod.. I'm more familiar with clisp... which is why I'm attempting to get this straight in my head :) 00:07:17 rudybot: eval (define nil '()) 00:07:33 rudybot: eval `(12 . ,nil) 00:07:34 rotty: ; Value: (12) 00:09:27 in CL, you don't need the UNQUOTE, as NIL is special wrt. evaluation (but I don't know the exact mechanics behind that) 00:09:55 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-42-33.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:03 so a list is ended with () and not nill 00:13:13 metasynt1x|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 00:13:36 rotty: Thanks for explaining that. I've never looked at CL, but I've heard of this "NIL" thingy. 00:13:46 Isn't it also used for #f? 00:13:58 TimMc: yes 00:14:05 Freaky. 00:14:40 rudybot: eval (eq? 'nill #f) 00:14:40 merimus: ; Value: #f 00:14:41 (and there's its antagonist, T) 00:15:13 *rotty* wonders why merimus seems to insist on the double-LL spelling :-) 00:15:24 s/-LL/-L/ 00:15:37 heh, sorry about that ;P 00:17:53 fnord123 [n=fnord123@host86-146-160-57.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:20:26 rudybot: eval (eq? 'nil #f) 00:20:26 merimus: ; Value: #f 00:20:43 rudybot: eval (eq? nil #f) 00:20:44 merimus: error: reference to undefined identifier: nil 00:20:59 so nil is not #f 00:22:49 merimus: There is no nil. 00:22:55 'nil is a symbol 00:22:55 merimus: no, as I already mentioned, 'NIL is just a symbol, which means it is of totally different type than #t and #f (which are booleans) 00:23:09 ah! I understand now 00:23:11 thank you 00:23:16 rudybot: eval (symbol->string 'nil) 00:23:16 TimMc: ; Value: "nil" 00:23:28 rudybot: eval (string->symbol "nil") 00:23:29 TimMc: ; Value: nil 00:24:26 black_ [n=blacky@unaffiliated/blacky] has joined #scheme 00:24:56 -!- black_ [n=blacky@unaffiliated/blacky] has left #scheme 00:27:01 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:28 rudybot: docs 00:28:28 TimMc: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 00:28:32 rudybot: help 00:28:32 TimMc: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 00:29:04 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:32 rudybot: source 00:29:33 TimMc: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/4c4cd42ccc90a799e1873ecacfc6f0ca3da8510c 00:31:40 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:32:38 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 00:37:54 channel: I've gone through HtDP (in the Fundamentals course at NU). What should I read next to really get into full PLT? 00:38:18 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-152-50.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:38:28 -!- merimus [n=merimus@c-67-171-83-6.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:38:29 I see that the PLT site has a guide, but I wonder if it is more oriented towards people who already know a different Scheme. :-P 00:38:47 I hear about SICP a lot, and the Little Schemer. 00:42:24 Separate question: In the PLT module system, does an individual file (say foo.ss) specify what bindings they import and export, or is that controlled by whatever is pulling in foo.ss? 00:43:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:43:52 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 00:45:10 TimMc: re a book, the guides would be perfect if you just want to do random hacking. Knowing Scheme is something that is expected, but as usual there is not that much to know. 00:45:55 re SICP -- it's a cute read, interesting in many places, ancient in others, and bad in a few. Given that you'll do PLAI soon, it's not as useful to you. 00:46:25 And re the module system question -- a module chooses to provide whatever it wants, and other modules can select a subset of that, rename bindings, etc. 00:47:09 eli: Thanks, I'll go through the Guide. 00:48:03 Did you go throught the two earlier ones (the "Quick" and "More" guides)? 00:48:11 I did the Quick. 00:49:35 Then do "More" first -- it introduces the fun stuff -- communication, threads, etc. 00:49:36 ventonegro_ [n=alex@201.81.149.13] has joined #scheme 00:50:02 The guide is covering most of the language and many libraries, so it is not as focused at hacking as that. 00:50:17 -!- ventonegro_ [n=alex@201.81.149.13] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:44 So, in PHP, each file may use `require` to pull in other code. Any further `require`s in those files are relative to the original "root" file. Does PLT's module system's `require` act relative to the requesting file, or to the "root"? 00:50:52 There's also the web guide, which you can play with -- it shows you how to set up a web server with servlets in Scheme. 00:51:26 (Also see Jay's recent post on the PLT list -- there's about a pageful of code that implements a twitter-like thing.) 00:51:29 (That's a really annoying "feature" of PHP that I forgot to mention the other day.) 00:51:43 I don't understand the question -- what do you mean by "root"? 00:52:36 If index.php requires ./sub/module.php, and module.php requires ./aux.php, then a request to index.php eventually pulls in ./sub/aux.php 00:52:40 -!- refusenik [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:52:56 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:52:57 But erm, sorry 00:53:00 ack 00:53:05 There are several ways to require a module in PLT. 00:53:24 it will *try* to pull in aux.php in the same directory as index.php 00:53:39 (require foo/bar/blah) will require the file "foo/bar/blah.ss" from the PLT collects "root". 00:54:23 The collects root includes the installation's ...plt/collects, and your private ~/.plt-scheme//collects 00:54:43 It can also be extended by setting PLTCOLLECTS to something like "$HOME/blah:" 00:55:05 The colon in the end makes it an empty component which is where the standard collection paths get spliced in. 00:55:36 (Note that each collection is found in one place, so you can't have your own foo/bar "shadow" some files from the PLT tree.) 00:56:02 If you need a file that does not have a ".ss" suffix you use (lib "foo/bar/blah.whatever") 00:56:17 So foo/bar/baz is equivalent to (lib "foo/bar/baz.ss") 00:56:36 So, that mechanism uses an absolute path of sorts. 00:56:45 (Just a second.) 00:57:03 Also using just `foo' is a shorthand for `foo/main', and is used for the main file of some libraries. 00:57:26 Now, if you want to use a *relative* file, you specify the name as a relative path in a string. 00:57:57 For example "foo/bar.ss" will require the "bar.ss" file in the "foo" directory at the same place as the requiring file. 00:58:15 So a relative path is always relative to the requiring file? 00:58:24 Yes. 00:58:26 That is good. 00:58:40 I'm sick of module systems that don't think that way. 00:58:40 In these specs, the string should be considered as a kind of a relative url path -- for example on windows it's still "/"s that should be used. 00:59:17 And finally, if you want to use any random path in your system (mostly an absolute path) then you use (file "/some/path/some/file.ss") 00:59:34 And on windows that can be (file "C:\\Something\\foo.ss") 00:59:52 These paths are of course not something that is used often, since they're not portable. 01:01:46 How does (require foo/bar/baz) distinguish between something relative to collects and something relative to the current file? 01:01:58 These are all ways to name a file -- on top of them there are ways to do the operations I talked about. For requiring files, these are all suffixed with an `-in'. 01:02:13 For example (require (only-in foo bar)) will get you only the two names. 01:02:33 (require (except-in foo bar)) will get you everything except for them. 01:02:59 (require (prefix-in foo: )) will get you all the bindings with a local name of `foo:' 01:03:29 And there's also (require (rename-in [some-name my-name] [some-other-name my-other-name])) 01:03:53 is the file to pull from? 01:03:59 And, of course, all of these can be combined, as in (require (prefix-in foo: (except-in foo bar))) 01:04:03 Yes. 01:04:29 Re your question -- the first would be (require foo/bar/baz), and the second would be (require "foo/bar/baz.ss") 01:05:04 I sometimes see foo.scm, is that undesirable, or equivalent? 01:05:58 You probably mean "foo.scm" -- requiring this file from the same directory. 01:06:31 No, just in general, I've seen some scheme files with .scm and others with .ss. 01:06:35 It's not undesirable, we just moved to prefer a singe suffix by convention, to avoid doing searches that can get you one of several files. 01:07:08 -!- lep-delete [n=chatzill@muedsl-82-207-249-158.citykom.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715094852]"] 01:07:21 This mostly applies to files in the PLT collections -- using a ".ss" suffix makes it easier to require -- you just need foo/bar instead of (lib "foo/bar.scm") 01:07:44 Ah, .ss is assumed by (require)? 01:08:47 Only in the short symbolic form. 01:09:04 k 01:09:14 For the (lib "...") and the relative "foo/bar.whatever" forms it doesn't matter since you specify the suffix anyway. 01:10:09 So .ss is the way to go, then, since 1) Always use the same suffix per project, and 2) .ss makes it easier to (require). :-) 01:10:47 It's only easier to require a .ss file if it's in the collects path. 01:11:07 This applies to plt code, and to local collections in your ~/.plt-scheme 01:11:16 Hmmm, OK. 01:11:20 It can also apply to your own code if you set PLTCOLLECTS. 01:11:49 But in almost all cases what you use is the symbolic name for PLT libraries and relative strings for your own code. 01:12:44 BTW, it's easy to find people who will tell you that some suffix is obviously the only one that should be used, and challange you to a duel if you disagree. 01:13:52 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:04 I'm sure. 01:15:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ribvkaxcbaoipzpw] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:06 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 01:19:01 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:21:03 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 01:36:02 I'm trying to get units working, but cross-unit types... 01:37:09 I define a contract chk/c in one unit, and provide it in that unit's signature. But another unit's contracted signature needs to take chk/c as arguments. I can't import a unit within a signature, can I? 02:04:08 -!- offby1`` is now known as offby1 02:15:20 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 02:23:30 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:23:58 -!- jao [n=jao@21.Red-83-43-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:58 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:33:40 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:48 damn... another promising project decided to depend on Mono and .NET. 02:36:34 Is it really that great an intermediate language? Everyone seems to be using it these days. 02:36:38 You sound like old FSF farts saying "damn... another promising project decided to depend on Perl. What happens with people who don't have Perl installed?" 02:38:01 incubot: i've heard the phrase "thought leaders" ad nauseam for the past 96 hours 02:38:04 ad nauseam 02:38:46 I may sound like it, but it's an entirely different situation. 02:40:09 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:40:10 people just used perl from scratch, whereas this Mono stuff seems to be actively absorbing existing projects. 02:40:28 What's an example of that? 02:42:33 http://beagle-project.org/ 02:44:16 why, I myself nearly lost a leg when Mono started absorbing it. Thankfully I was quicker than Mono was! 02:44:21 *offby1* pats his leg fondly 02:44:27 it's stood by me through good times and bad. 02:44:35 offby1: Or under you? 02:44:37 uh huh 02:46:11 There's also a bunch of scheme implementations using their intermediate language. 02:46:13 adamA__ [n=adam@99-159-30-101.lightspeed.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:14 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/will/Larceny/ for instance 02:46:16 .oO("under" me? What a notion) 02:46:53 the nice things about .net -- or Java for that matter -- is that a) the scheme implementer doesn't need to write his own VM; and b) there's tons of handy libraries 02:47:01 Bigloo just started supporting .NET bytecode 02:47:16 now, I've heard that .net and java are both not good for dynamic languages, but I dunno. 02:47:36 Well I sure haven't seen as much scheme in java bytecode. All I can think of is one implementation...name escapes me. 02:47:57 SISC and I think there are a couple others 02:48:06 then there's clojure, which of course isn't scheme, but you get the idea 02:48:09 kawa? 02:48:55 All I heard of was SISC 02:49:01 and yeah, clojure isn't scheme 02:51:49 I don't like .NET any more than I like java. Both of them are big and bloated, and reinvent everything instead of playing nice with other libraries. 02:52:38 Right now .NET has better dynamic support, but Java is catching up very fast and will probably overtake it soon. 02:53:14 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176221179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:16 But generating for .NET or Java is one thing; being designed to play nice with those environments is another. There is typically a thick wall between the Scheme world and the native world. 02:54:42 I haven't seen it as so thick as all that. Scheme is just a specification, not any sort of a virtual machine. 02:54:47 I mean look at chicken! 02:55:45 -!- adamA__ [n=adam@99-159-30-101.lightspeed.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:56:03 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-69.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:57:27 dstorrs [n=dstorrs@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:57:41 evening all 02:58:21 I've just started out with PLT scheme, and I've got a question on the web server. Is it intended for production use, or just dev / inhouse testing ? 03:00:31 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 03:01:10 I don't think it's intended for anything... works fine for me. 03:04:33 yeah, I just went through the "build a blog" tutorial: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/continue/index.html and was very impressed. 03:05:28 I'm just trying to get a sense of people's experience with it. 03:05:50 has anyone used the server in production, or know of a site that does? 03:05:59 Chicken *is* designed to play nice with C. 03:07:45 My site uses the PLT web server. 03:08:06 It's just my personal art collection though, nothing heavy use. 03:08:10 -!- timj [n=timj@e176212074.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:31 ok, good to know. 03:09:18 I did a bit of Scheme in college and am just getting back into it. I'm really have fun with it. Kinda surprised, actually. It's a lot more natural and easier than I remember. 03:10:01 (that may be the difference between a "learning how to program" freshman and someone who's been working a few years, though) 03:10:06 I've always found it kind of counter-intuitive. I don't know of any more flexible languages though, nor ones that do continuations right. 03:10:32 yeah, that's true. most don't even do them. 03:11:00 I came around here after a long stint with python... and before that, perl. 03:11:12 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:16 Unlike some languages, perl didn't leave me utterly hating its guts. 03:11:53 same here--except I skipped the python and just stayed in Perl. 03:12:14 I gather P6 has continuations but I haven't gotten into it much yet. 03:12:35 I got involved in the early process and then got disenchanted when the "one year" project took a decade. :/ 03:12:37 python's like "You don't need continuations. Just manually divide up your procedures and trampoline them!" 03:13:02 ehe, that does sound like a long time... you really worked on it for a decade? 03:13:18 You don't need recursion, just implement finitely many copies of your Fortran subprograms. 03:14:05 One thing pretty nice about scheme is it's got tail recursion. The python czar recently announced that python was going to deliberately avoid tail recursion, because it looks funny. 03:14:29 dstorrs: There are a number of companies that use the plt scheme web server in production. 03:14:59 Programming language should not be designed by placing feature on top of feature, but by removing the restrictions that make additional features appear necessary. 03:14:59 karlw, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: thanks 03:15:09 synx: no. I was involved peripherally for a few years, and then lost heart and stopped following. 03:15:27 but it's been under development since ~2000, IIRC 03:15:42 eli: you're welcome 03:16:14 eli: that's reassuring, thank you. Any names that I would know? 03:16:33 karlw: actually, that's exactly what Larry was trying to do. 03:17:15 dstorrs: Probably not, unless you've spent a while in the Scheme circles. 03:17:28 btw, I'm just going through PLaneT for the first time in detail. Are there any packages that anyone would particularly recommend? 03:17:43 e.g., what do y'all use for testing, web development, etc? 03:17:45 dstorrs: The most visible one is untyped (who also have a large number of packages on planet because they use them). 03:18:06 (Visible company, not package.) 03:18:43 For web development it's best to start here: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/continue/ 03:18:55 eli: ok. Really, I just wanted to know that the server can handle a moderate amount of traffic, doesn't have gaping security holes, won't leak memory like a pinstuck hose, etc. Which it sounds like it won't 03:19:03 For testing there are a number of libraries, and schemeunit (on planet) is the most popular one. 03:19:29 eli: yep, just went through the tutorial on continue; that's where I found out about the web server. 03:19:35 Yes, that's roughly the idea. Although you do need to learn how to use it, of course. 03:19:53 honestly, I learned more from that tut than from all the other docco and self-practice I'd been doing. 03:20:07 before, I couldn't figure out how to include and provide modules. now I get it. 03:20:17 If you run into any problems etc, asking on the plt list will get you answers very quickly, and Jay (the guy who develops and maintains the web server) is very responsive. 03:20:48 (That's the intention of these guides.) 03:20:53 does he have a tip jar anywhere? I'd be happy to throw a few bucks in it, after doing that tutorial. 03:21:07 it was really outstanding docco. 03:21:31 Well, we don't have any way to deal with these things... 03:21:49 Keeping the project running require more than a tip jar would do... 03:22:37 insta looks a lot better than it is though... it only works in drscheme, not mred, and that's pretty much a deal-breaker for me. Makes it pretty much a... what did you call it 03:22:51 Just for dev/in-house testing. 03:23:15 I'm struggling to stay professional on the R6RS/ERR5RS/R5RS issue. 03:23:21 synx: I was working from Emacs / mzscheme the whole time anyway. 03:24:06 Also most of the web-server stuff you return a pre-encoded list of byte strings. It won't take SXML. They don't quite document that... 03:24:06 synx: Again with your jumping. I very highly doubt that untyped would run their production servers inside drscheme. 03:24:46 And that's bogus also. Many things take Xexprs, which are nearly the same. 03:24:49 "untyped" don't use web-server/insta though, right? 03:24:50 so, anyone have any words of Scheme wisdom for the newbie? stuff that you wish someone had told you when you were first getting into Scheme? things to read / do / avoid / etc? 03:25:22 Untyped are the guys who *made* that thing. 03:25:28 No I mean make-response/* functions will not take any Xexpr or SXML or anything, just (listof bytes?) 03:25:34 *eli* sighs 03:25:47 you have to convert it yourself before returning it... doesn't mention that except in the procedure's contract. 03:26:06 synx: If you want to say things that sound like they might be bogus, please resist the urge, do some reading, GET A DAMN EMAIL ACCOUNT, and ask a question on the mailing list. 03:26:10 dstorrs: Re-read cxhapter 2 of SICP and do all the list exercises. 03:26:38 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/http.html#(def._((lib._web-server/http/response-structs..ss)._make-response/full)) 03:27:06 See to make a response, it has to be pre-encoded as ...lists of bytes. 03:27:32 And eli, you think IRC is a place only for measured well reasoned argument based on well founded principles and careful deductive reasoning? 03:27:54 Then build the explicit-control evaluator using box cutters and cardboard in a shack in Nevada. 03:28:25 I mean, I try to do my best, but I don't try all that hard. It's just IRC. :p 03:30:20 synx: Then try harder. At least reduce the bogosity ratio down from 80% to under 50%. And sticking to irc because you have some issues with the concept of email is getting ridiculous. It's like you keep shouting these completely absurd things -- and refuse to get on the single place where you can actually get proper answers to such questions -- and as a result you keep on shouting absurdities. 03:32:18 synx: Open an xterm and type plt-help 03:32:40 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/continue/#(part._.Leaving_.Dr.Scheme) 03:33:20 That's how you get out of the 'insta' language, which only works in drscheme, and start a web server without the editor. 03:34:33 eli: I'm constantly amazed at how an unfavorable opinion towards someone can make their arguments seem less logical. 03:35:46 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:35:59 It seems like I forgot something today. Oh yeah, 03:36:06 *karlw* yawns 03:36:33 synx: yeah, I did that before finishing section 2 of the tutorial. 03:36:42 synx: I'm constantly amazed at how you can produce illogical arguments and conclude that you're being unfavored. 03:36:43 Oh, I see now. serve/servlet can take a procedure that will return an XEXPR, and automatically generate the response. Since my procedure was returning a response, not an XEXPR, that requires me to do the encoding myself. 03:36:44 me and Emacs go too far back to shift to a GUI IDE now. 03:37:14 synx: Here's what I did -- I took the *first* example of the insta language (from http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/run_ss.html#%28part._insta%29 ), 03:37:28 synx: I then saved it in a file called "foo", 03:37:28 haha dstorrs, well to each their own. I use the emacs in GUI mode sometimes. 03:37:43 synx: And then I just typed "mzscheme foo" -- and guess what happened next? 03:38:01 It said insta can only be run in drscheme. 03:38:09 Wrong. 03:38:27 Wow, really? 03:38:27 what package do people normally use for templating? 03:38:54 I'm looking at string-template right now, but it's docs say it is "not very complete" 03:39:05 You're right! Funny I could swear I had gotten an error saying it only worked in drscheme before. 03:39:40 dstorrs: What kind of templating do you need? 03:39:50 dstorrs: nice thing about xexprs is you can use quasiquote/unquote to form your own 'template' procedures. 03:40:40 synx: Well, trying it out was just to make sure no surprises were added. At the time that Jay made it available, I asked him to add a few keyword arguments to make it more friendly for for command-line use (for example, not openning up a browser on the page). 03:41:22 OK well I won't claim insta is drscheme only then anymore. 03:41:54 well, I'm used to working with Template Toolkit, so that's the first thing I think of. 03:42:04 quasiquoting can start to get kind of ugly... it is technically a language switch. I just made a procedural XHTML generator for my purposes. 03:42:10 I'd prefer to have the templates in files distinct from the web app code directly 03:42:33 dstorrs: Are you talking about something like Cheetah? 03:42:52 I use the MVC model. My templates are scheme modules that do nothing besides produce functions that generate 'views'. 03:43:24 eli: not sure. What is Cheetah? (he said, reaching for Google as he typed) 03:43:36 It's a large cat. 03:43:42 dstorrs: Some python thing. 03:43:48 ah. 03:43:53 Not as fast as Homestarr Runner 03:44:00 dstorrs: Looks pretty similar (I just finished my googling.) 03:44:26 dstorrs: In any case, do you need it only for producing web content or also for something else? 03:44:30 oh...is that the same as Cheetahmail? 03:44:42 eli: immediate need is just web content. 03:44:48 general purpose tools are always nice. 03:44:52 dstorrs: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/templates.html 03:45:18 dstorrs: and there is a generic version of that too, when you get there. 03:45:29 *eli* checks that there are no arcfides around 03:45:33 I don't like when templates try to mix two languages together. It always gets ugly, is hard to format, otherwise introspect and debug. 03:46:07 hot damn. I completely missed this document. Thanks for the pointer. 03:46:15 I was hoping to find more detail on the web server. 03:46:25 I have yet to meet an editor that can format scheme inside a certain context and HTML outside those delimiters. 03:46:35 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:35 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:56 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:47:29 dstorrs: This is part of the web server. 03:48:26 eli: right, sorry. phrased that poorly. "I was hoping to find...web server, and here it is. Nifty." is what I meant. 03:53:02 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:53:15 dstorrs: Well, the web server has a huge number of such features. 03:56:42 If I have a unit that exports some-contract/c, and another unit that uses some-contract/c in its contractual signature, how do I get that to work? 03:58:24 synx: ask on the mailing list. 03:58:37 Oh I would sure. 03:58:59 If I wasn't afraid I'd mess it up with email bounces again. 04:00:17 synx: Sorry, I don't know enough about that. If you want answers to such questions, you should ask on the list. 04:01:06 synx: what happened before that made you avoid emailing the list? 04:02:16 It's okay eli, I'm pretty much just throwing it out. 04:03:12 jimt [n=jim@202.27.212.33] has joined #scheme 04:03:32 synx: Believe it or not, I even considered making some anonymous posting form, but I'd need at least two more people with the same problem to justify doing that work. 04:03:44 dstorrs: Me and email don't get along so well... 04:04:00 how so? 04:04:19 email won :p 04:04:25 Well I like to run a little local mail spool for my emails. 04:04:57 And I don't have much money. So that's pretty much it. 04:05:26 ...er. Ok...not quite catching it here. 04:05:53 A story might help clarify! 04:07:00 Once long ago I was stuck on Comcast. My email server was getting hundreds of spam a day, but easily filing the messages in the junk folder. 04:07:41 No way with email to prevent someone from knowing their message got delivered or not, so I just passively plonked the spammer's junk. Not more than a tiny email every couple minutes or so though. 04:08:29 Even set up rules temporarily blocking IP addresses that spamassassin said were spam. 04:09:04 So Comcast blocked me from receiving email, cutting me off completely from a dozen mailing lists and several close friends. 04:09:48 Their policy is no customer is allowed to run any server under any circumstances at all, so they use that to justify blocking people's emails, to try and force people to use the big centralized databases for all their communication. 04:10:47 And... some time before they did so, in my increasing attempts to filter out the spam one of the filters failed causing every single email to start bouncing thank you postfix. 04:11:52 ok. So you don't have an email account at all now? I thought eli was being hyperbolic when he said that. 04:11:58 So first I fixed an email bouncing problem, while eli reprimanded me for not using a professional email server and trying to run my own on chicken wire and bubble gum. And then I started complaining about how Comcast agreed with eli, with expected results. 04:12:57 Then I left Comcast, but unfortunately no ISP here allows anyone to run any servers, so I've been extremely careful not to receive any spam at all, so they won't see a reason to block my email. 04:13:28 is this a privacy concern for you? is that why don't use, e.g. Gmail? 04:14:09 I've been on Gmail for a while, and I find that I get just about zero spam. Also, I've never seen a false positive in the spam folder--I've even given up looking. 04:14:29 I like having my emails on my computer. I did set up gmail when Comcast blocked my normal route, but gmail doesn't do email forwarding or act as an MX relay. It ended up being a bigger mess than just receiving the emails directly myself. 04:14:50 Actually I still have the gmail forwarder running... cronjobs that never die heh. 04:15:03 you know you can POP and IMAP from Gmail, right? 04:15:26 (Gmail certainly forwards.) 04:16:27 so, you're ok with having and using a Gmail account, as long as you have a copy of each email locally? 04:16:38 synx, you've told this stories a few times now -- have you considered writing it up for reference? 04:16:56 Riastradh: ehe, probably a good idea... 04:17:06 seems like that shouldn't be too hard. In fact, if you happen to be on OSX, it's pretty much a checkbox in Mail.app 04:17:12 I've been trying to get my journal working again... but this whole unit mishmash has me flummoxed. 04:17:27 Journal? Write a text file. 04:17:54 Riastradh: yeah, signed with my PGP key :p 04:18:49 dstorrs: what I did was I downloaded the email via IMAP, which unfortunately lost some of the information such as the envelope sender. But I made a munged email address so I could translate a From: address into an envelope sender. After translating, I forward the email to my local spool which delivers it to the right mailbox. 04:19:34 -!- TR2N [i=email@89-180-224-243.net.novis.pt] has left #scheme 04:20:41 Riastradh: I'm trying to make a decentralized forum where I could post stuff redundantly for reliability and an increased reader base, like Usenet sort of. 04:21:42 Like Usenet with tree hashing, piece-wise encryption and signatures that sign what they need to and only what they need to. 04:21:50 Short of that, synx, a page on a public web site would suffice for the purpose of reference, even if not for the purpose of publicity. 04:22:17 Yeah I'll probably put it in a text file or something. 04:23:42 Specifically, a public web site on a server that does not hand out a certificate that is only self-signed or that is signed only by an unconventional certification authority. 04:23:45 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-lyyxsynlmevqjkrl] has joined #scheme 04:26:11 https://synx.us.to/~synx/email.txt 04:26:44 Sure Riastradh. Send me $20 a month and I'll be happy to get a certificate signed by a corporate authority. 04:26:50 lol 04:31:03 -!- amx [n=amx@percival.namespace.at] has left #scheme 04:32:59 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 04:33:00 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:36 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:35:41 here you go Riastradh http://rapidshare.com/files/263482336/forRiastradh.7z.html 04:35:49 The password is "ferret" 04:35:59 *Riastradh* blinks. 04:36:34 That site is a public web site on a server that does not hand out a certificate from an authority you weren't told to trust. 04:37:29 Now if you'll excuse me I have to go remove the Flash plugin... and wash my hands yuck. 04:39:32 This isn't for me to read (I read the conversation); this is for reference, and for clarifying any arguments you may enter later. 04:40:44 (If you really want a quick host for a text file, you could use lisppaste... All that requires is an HTTP client with the capability to POST forms.) 04:48:56 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:52:12 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:53:33 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 04:54:08 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:26 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:55:48 Heh, yeah. I just think Rapidshare is a good metaphor for the general attitude of "don't do it yourself" where you communicate only via large centralized corporate systems. 04:57:56 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:43 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:11:16 -!- davids [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has quit ["Client exiting"] 05:15:21 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:16 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:25:12 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:07 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:27:32 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:35:35 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:36:23 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:43:18 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[n=lolcow@dsl-243-60-08.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:47:23 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-174.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:55:14 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-48.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:01:33 WTF, DrScheme? http://imgur.com/0m3Fb.png 15:03:15 Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 15:06:39 So much for compiling from source. I'll just use the pre-packed download from now on. 15:06:41 TimMc: whence your wtf? 15:06:49 Note the giant, blocky fonts. 15:07:42 I've had weird issues with the pre-packed version before, which is why I had switched to compiling it. I hope those issues are resolved. 15:08:27 Look through the configure output, and check that it found Xft and Xthis and Xthat -- there are a bunch of things that can make it look horrible if they're missing. 15:08:50 eli: Those wouldn't block the configure? 15:09:19 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 15:10:29 TimMc: No, it will just not use them. 15:10:44 Or at least some won't. 15:10:44 Yikes, OK. I'll bear that in mind. 15:11:08 It did yell at me about a couple libX__ packages, so I figured I had everything. :-/ 15:11:50 Anyway, I think my original issues had to do with the homework-submitter tool, so that doesn't matter now. 15:11:53 Well, configure outputs are kind of important to glance through, they tend to say stuff like that. Not only for PLY. 15:11:57 s/Y/T/. 15:12:23 I'm used to it being a binary thing: Blow up or completely cool. 15:12:43 I don't have a great deal of *n*x experience, however. 15:13:24 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-95.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:34 -!- ToxicFrog [n=ToxicFro@69-165-140-82.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:16:45 ToxicFrog [n=ToxicFro@69-165-140-82.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 15:18:35 On another topic, I've found that reading through R5RS has been very effective for me. :-/ 15:19:12 I think I learn languages best by reading their specifications. 15:19:29 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 15:20:01 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:15 Well, linux has a bazillion opitions for just about everything, but often using substitutions (like plain X fonts over Xft, or not using cairo) don't really work as well. 15:21:15 -!- igraltist [n=jens@kasten-edv.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:18 igraltist [n=jens@kasten-edv.de] has joined #scheme 15:23:09 I think I learn languages best by reading their specifications. 15:23:10 Gosh 15:23:17 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 15:23:28 that's like a super-power 15:23:57 I wonder what the kryptonite equivalent would be? 15:24:08 hmm 15:24:10 Java spec? 15:24:15 *cough*perl*cough* 15:24:27 wait -- _ActiveState_ perl. 15:24:31 You know, perl plus Windows. 15:24:38 *offby1* is still kinda fonda Perl 15:24:41 Egads. 15:24:47 it's true. 15:25:02 I never use it any more, but used to, and liked it despite agreeing with (almost) every criticism of it 15:25:28 I'm in pretty much the same position, now, with Python -- agree with most criticism of it, but kinda like it anyway 15:25:29 offby1: It has to be a well-written spec, of course. :-P 15:25:30 Honestly, I feel kind of bad for ragging on it all the time. 15:25:51 *offby1* pines for Perl 6 exactly how he once pined for arc 15:25:54 I'll never learn! 15:26:01 A fella's gotta have hope! 15:26:17 what happend to arc anyway? 15:26:40 The hundred-year language moniker is turning out to be true in more ways than one. 15:27:31 ment: arc was released, and is available; nobody uses it. 15:27:39 offby1: I'm quite opposite with Python. I agree with almost all praising about it, but still hate it and I'm not really quite certain why. There's just something... repulsive about it. 15:28:57 offby1, have you been paying attention to the Unladen Swallow project at all? 15:30:05 "paying attention" is putting it strongly, but I'm aware of it. 15:30:17 But my complaints about Python have nothing to do with performance :-| 15:32:04 I didn't mean to infer that they were, but now I'm curious! It can't be the syntax, or you would never have picked it up in the first place..? 15:32:27 well, I didn't "pick it up"; I use it at work. 15:33:17 The syntax bothers me less than I'd have expected. The biggest complaint I can think of offhand is kind of small -- it's that there's no scope smaller than "function", so I cannot do the equivalent of (let). 15:33:23 I can't even explain why that bothers me, but it does. 15:33:37 In practice, though, it's never hard to do what I need to do, so ... 15:34:11 offby1: That bothers me in JS as well. 15:34:38 TimMc: At least in JS you can do function() { var x; ... }() 15:35:06 modulo a few parens, perhaps 15:35:13 sjamaan: Well, (function() { var x; ... })(), yes. 15:35:14 TimMc, JavaScript now has a let statement that acts the way you would expect it to, mercifully. 15:35:32 Guess which browser doesn't implement it, though? 15:35:33 gnomon: Ah, and where can you use it? 15:35:37 Right :) 15:35:50 The Web is stuck in time 15:35:56 gnomon: That's great for shell scripting and XUL... 15:36:37 sjamaan, MS grabbed control of that terrain pretty handily, to the detriment of all. 15:41:11 if I were a web programmer -- which I'm not -- I'd want to write in Scheme and have it compile to JS. "hop" is the most interesting such idea I've seen; pity nobody uses it 15:41:58 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-55-48.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:19 offby1: David van Horn at NU is working on that. 15:42:30 where "that" = Scheme->JS 15:43:07 danking: ^ 15:43:23 TimMc: huh. Well, "hop" has this neat idea where you write _one_ program, and merely designate which pieces of it run in the browser and which on the server, and it takes care of the details. I love that idea; do you know if DvH is doing something similar? 15:44:19 offby1: He's got danking writing a Scheme->JS translator. Then they're gonna run that through itself to produce a JS library that can run Scheme all by itself. :-P 15:44:30 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-42-121.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:44:32 I have no idea what sort of integration is planned. 15:44:57 It sounds like `hop` does all the translation on the server side. 15:45:52 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 15:50:49 I assume so, but am not sure 15:50:56 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 15:51:54 It sounds like a pretty ideal environment. I'll have to look it up at some point. 15:52:19 hop.inria.fr 15:52:20 One of the most important bits in looking at server languages is to find out how they handle page templating. 15:52:27 it's pretty hip 15:52:29 thanks 15:52:49 supposedly PLT's "scribble" can be used for page templating 15:53:14 what's your favorite scheme ? Seems like there is a big divide between r6ers and r5ers out there. I have so far tried plt, gambit, guile and scsh for plinking around but I don't know the best and why. 15:53:17 Now I just have to get my web host to support Scheme as an Apache module. :-P 15:54:06 I like simple so I guess I lean towards the r5 side in principle 15:55:15 dysinger: the "best" is the one you wind up using, even if you can't explain why :) 15:55:21 for myself it's PLT 15:55:25 rudybot_: eval (banner) 15:55:26 offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 15:55:26 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.2 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 15:55:30 and the bot agrees with me. 15:55:33 rudybot_: ghost rudybot 15:55:34 offby1: eh? Try "rudybot_: help". 15:55:36 *sigh* 15:55:39 never fails 15:56:08 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:56:09 rudybot_: ghost rudybot 15:56:12 rudybot_: nick rudybot 15:56:13 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 15:56:51 offby1 - so true 15:57:10 right now that's guile because I'm doing some glade/gui for an interesting learning project 15:57:35 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:57:47 *dysinger* wishes there was an all-scheme emacs, programmable in scheme w/ a slime-like interactive env 15:58:09 there is, fool! 15:58:18 WANT 15:58:20 it's called "Edwin", it comes with MIT scheme, and it's surprisingly emacs-like 15:58:38 interesting 15:58:38 will check it 15:58:47 another IRC triumph. 15:59:00 being an emacs lover though I am not getting my hopes up 15:59:42 Some folks at NU are working on a rewrite (I think) of Edwin in Scheme48. 15:59:51 weird 16:00:05 Something to that effect. 16:00:15 that almost sounds like a subtle parody. 16:01:15 Disregard that 16:01:18 poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 16:01:45 They're not writing it in Scheme48 16:04:34 -!- proq` is now known as proq 16:19:07 there is gemacs but it seems like a dead project 16:20:12 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 16:22:12 -!- Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:41 people have been talking about writing a new Emacs for ever. It never happens. 16:22:44 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-121.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 16:22:47 -!- Archeron [n=wade@69.10.147.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:24:01 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-208-146.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:25:22 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgi093.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:37 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:53 emacs is a terrible emacs 16:29:19 elaborate 16:29:27 That's part of the problem, yes. 16:29:37 :-) 16:31:03 Archeron [n=wade@69.10.147.2] has joined #scheme 16:32:32 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:50 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:34:08 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@137.Red-88-8-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:35:28 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 16:37:24 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:40:26 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@users-42-121.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:59 gnomon: >_< 16:41:31 Can someone please explain me why this macro doesn't work? http://pastebin.com/m15e6d399 16:41:48 foof: What is wrong with emacs? 16:41:50 And why it works in Common Lisp?? http://pastebin.com/m525f5d53 16:41:53 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:42:32 pbusser2: don't get me started! :) 16:42:58 *pbusser2* pushes foof's start button. :-P 16:42:59 actually, I'm about to fall asleep... I'll rant some other time 16:43:10 foof: Sleep is for wussies. :-) 16:43:17 And overrated for that matter. 16:49:58 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:50:56 anyone? 16:51:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-128-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:52:44 nvteighen: I don't know Scheme very well, but... 1) Which Scheme are you using? 2) What do you expect it to do? 3) What does it do instead? 4) Are you using any special modules/packages/libraries? 16:53:44 TimMc: This should work in any Scheme complying to R4RS+ 16:53:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:54:34 *eli* coughs 16:55:03 *foof* burps 16:55:22 *nvteighen* bangs his head against Scheme sc-macro-transformer 16:55:24 *TimMc* doesn't know what sc-macro-transformer is, so can't actually help you 16:55:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:56:05 The issue is ,@ seems not behaiving as it should 16:56:07 In a macro 16:56:15 if I do `(+ ,@args) 16:56:39 what I expect as macro-expansion is (+ args1 args2 args3 ...) 16:57:02 where args = (list args1 args2 args3 ...) 16:57:11 nvteighen: make-syntactic-closure returns a syntax object, not a list, so you can't splice it with ,@ 16:57:45 try `(+ ,@(map (lambda (x) (make-syntactic-closure env '() x)) (cdr exp))) 16:57:50 *foof* sleeps 16:58:27 nvteighen: BTW, it won't work in any r4rs, since it doesn't have macros; it won't work in r5rs, since it only has `syntax-rules', and it won't work in r6rs since it doesn't have syntactic closures. 16:58:42 eli: ! 16:58:46 ? 16:59:10 *nvteighen* is thinking seriously to step into Common Lisp forever and never come back to Scheme 16:59:49 nvteighen: A little Googling shows it as being in MIT Scheme. Is that what you're using? 16:59:53 nvteighen: If that's the kind of macros that you need, then syntax-rules is a thousand times simpler anyway. 17:00:10 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 17:00:20 eli: the problem with syntax-rules is that they're not Scheme 17:00:39 TimMc: yup 17:01:16 nvteighen: They're Scheme templates, and for writing the macro that you want, they're *still* a thousand times simpler. 17:01:30 (IOW, not being Scheme in this case is a feature.) 17:01:48 I know... but... 17:02:08 Heck... this is so strange :p 17:02:26 Define "this". 17:03:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uetchbwfhyutaekw] has joined #scheme 17:04:35 The thing is the following 17:04:55 The syntax-rules is limited... 17:05:42 You can't use symbolic manipulation... as backquote/unquote gets deactivated 17:06:19 You can use `syntax-case', which makes expressing `syntax-rules' macros trivial. 17:07:13 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:17 hm... somehow I feel more secure using the CL-style 17:07:49 Your security is an illusion. 17:08:36 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:08:41 `defmacro' is perceived as being simple because "it's just symbols and lists" -- and the bottom line is that for hygiene, what you're dealing with is more than just that. 17:09:30 So your choice is either accept the fact and learn how to use a hygienic macro system, or refuse it, and stick to CL. 17:10:08 The issue is that Lisp (in general) is symbols and lists 17:10:20 eli: What about 3) use syntax-rules when possible, and fall back to potentially unhygienic macors only when necessary? 17:10:31 when you cut that, you begin to cut the metacircular propierties 17:10:48 nvteighen: That's exactly what I said -- and *that* is the reason why CL macros cannot be hygienic. 17:11:06 that's why I like the syntactic-closures system... which combines Scheme's hygienic macros + the symbols & lists idea 17:11:14 The metacircular properties are completely unrelated, they exist in both languages. 17:11:24 It does not. 17:11:36 i.e, your snip. 17:11:39 sorry, I wanted to mean metalinguistic, not metacircular :p 17:12:07 eli: so why the hell does sc-macro-transformer exist? 17:12:14 If by "metalinguistic" you mean using the language to express its macros, then that is most definitely a feature of all Scheme macro systems. 17:12:29 rudybot, eval (even? 2) 17:12:30 Edico: your sandbox is ready 17:12:30 Edico: ; Value: #t 17:12:50 `sc-macro-transformer' is one tool that bridges the gap between the simplistic view of "symbols and lists" and the reality of syntax objects. 17:13:06 yes, that's what I'm taught 17:13:21 TimMc: unhygienic macros are a bug. Falling back to them is a bad idea. 17:13:33 all scheme implementations have the same predefined procedures? 17:13:55 TimMc: If that's what you want, then I believe that there are systems that provide a similar kind of match-input-template-output on top of `defmacro'. 17:14:09 jordyd [n=jordy@c-76-108-123-3.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:14:36 eli: so, isn't sc-m-t a good idea? They fill that gap, you get both an hygienic macro + the "simplistic idea" 17:14:43 slashus2_ [n=slashus2@74-137-77-71.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #scheme 17:15:11 nvteighen: The best route, if you choose hygiene, is to start with `syntax-rules', and when you get to things that cannot be expressed by it, move to one of the lower level macro systems. I'd naturally recommend `syntax-case' but some people here would start throwing stones if I did. 17:15:42 nvteighen: My opinion is that `syntax-case' is perfectly fine for writing any macro I want to write. 17:15:42 eli: that's what I did... :p 17:16:08 If that's what you did, then the macro that you wrote doesn't demonstrate a need to break out of the `syntax-rules' limitation. 17:16:27 You mean the snippet, well... that is just an example 17:16:39 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:50 Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has joined #scheme 17:16:57 but now I see my mistake... the syntactic closures enclose identifiers, not forms 17:17:14 that's why the map is needed in the example I showed 17:18:07 nvteighen: My recommendation (re `syntax-case') is still the same. 17:18:29 ok, the issue is that MIT/GNU seems not to support that yet 17:18:45 and I'm somehow bount to that implementation in my project... 17:19:12 Why? 17:19:50 I'm using some libraries that are MIT/GNU specific 17:19:53 like the SOS 17:21:03 Ugh. 17:21:23 What I remember from SOS is a mess. 17:21:34 The bad kind of mess -- the one at the design level. 17:21:47 Eh? 17:22:12 I'm using SOS 1.9... It hasn't gave me that impression 17:22:14 -!- slashus2_ is now known as slashus2 17:22:27 Would you care to elaborate, eli? The design is fairly straightforward, and organized into nicer parts than most CLOS-like systems. 17:23:55 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:59 To elaborate I'll have to go back to reading about it and reconstructing all the issues that I've seen with it, and that will take significant time that I don't have. 17:24:30 well, there's an issue, but related to Scheme, not to SOS 17:24:43 CLOS has the advantage of CL keywords 17:24:47 One amusing bit that is related to the exposition of the object system in 6.001 -- at some point the system that they presented had something like this: 17:25:11 (define (make-foo ...args...) (lambda (msg) (case msg ...handlers... ((is-foo?) #t)))) 17:25:50 OK. I am merely curious how it significantly differs from, say, Swindle, except in the organization (and in particular the separation of a fast cache abstraction for a particular class of generic procedure dispatch) and in the support for a meta-object protocol. 17:25:51 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:52 The absurdity in that definition is only surpassed by the failure to see the problem by people who were in charge of the course contents. 17:27:00 Riastradh: Well, I question the utility of tiny-clos in general, but that's definitely not something that I have time for... In any case, I don't remember any relation between SOS and a MOP of any kind. 17:28:10 That's right: SOS doesn't have much of a MOP itself; the heterarchical class/instance taxonomy has a pretty fixed structure. The generic dispatch mechanism, however, is itself fairly generic. 17:28:51 BW^- [n=Miranda@92.82.43.132] has joined #scheme 17:29:07 guys, are not all date/time implementations for Scheme very insufficient as regards timezone handling? 17:29:29 ok, gotta go... thanks for the information 17:29:30 SRFI 19 and PLT's time date library (those are the best I found among Schemes) support a timezone offset and that's it 17:29:32 Yes: they don't adequately make time zones cease their existence. 17:29:35 enlightening, as always 17:29:37 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@137.Red-88-8-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 17:30:13 afaik for correctly calculating with times, you need quite extensive logics handling, for example as implemented by Boost date/time in http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_39_0/doc/html/date_time/local_time.html 17:30:36 -!- jordyd [n=jordy@c-76-108-123-3.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 17:31:07 Make a better library, then, BW^-. 17:31:15 ok got it. 17:31:23 currently i'm thinking about making a FFI wrapper to Boost. 17:31:27 's. 17:36:33 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@92.82.43.132] has left #scheme 17:36:50 -!- Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:40:01 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 17:40:03 -!- Toast [n=Toast@64.111.87.215] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:03 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:43:06 Toast [n=Toast@70.40.128.168] has joined #scheme 17:44:04 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:46:48 sleepydog [n=user@64-252-139-167.adsl.snet.net] has joined #scheme 17:46:57 -!- nunb [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Success] 17:47:06 BW^- [n=Miranda@92.82.43.132] has joined #scheme 17:47:36 are there any JNDI FFI:s written for Scheme using a C FFI (or libffi) ? 17:48:55 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:59 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:56:29 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:00:42 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:34 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:05:30 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 18:15:08 Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 18:17:43 rstandy` [n=rastandy@net-93-144-234-212.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 18:19:07 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-170-216.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:51 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:07 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:28:43 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:35:32 -!- masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:35:37 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-210-197.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:39:50 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 18:40:57 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:56 choas [n=lars@p5B0DD40B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:52:01 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:52:05 eli: At one point I wanted to wrap Scheme48's define-record-type functionality in a PLT-like define-struct form. 18:52:28 However, that involved generation of names, so I couldn't use syntax-rules. 18:52:37 Swordsman [n=kohii@pool-71-112-25-59.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:19 (define-struct foo (bar)) needed to produce something on the order of (define-record-type foo foo-bar bar?) 18:54:42 That's the sort of thing that seems to require straight-up syntax transformers. 19:01:18 TimMc: The generation of identifiers, to handle things simply does require the use of some hygiene bending, but what do you mean by syntax-transformers? You mean like DATUM->SYNTAX? 19:01:30 s/simply/simply,/ 19:01:39 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-lyyxsynlmevqjkrl] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:01:50 arcfide: I may not have the right terminology here. 19:02:18 I've come in late, so I'm not sure of the context here. I just saw some arguments in the logs about defmacro. :-) 19:02:25 I resorted to Clinger's explicit-rename. 19:02:55 TimMc: Are you using a Scheme implementation that does not provide SYNTAX-CASE? 19:02:58 Lambda gets a sexp, lambda returns a sexp. 19:03:20 Faed [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #scheme 19:03:30 I was using Scheme48. I'm sure it has syntax-case, but the existing codebase used x-rename. 19:06:27 TimMc: My biggest complaint with most macro systems that are capable of breaking hygiene is that they don't enforce hygiene by default, but require you to work to ensure hygiene. I consider it an improvement if the macro system enforces hygiene by default and makes it easy to break hygiene in specific, localized ways that are clearly visible. 19:08:07 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@92.82.43.132] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 19:09:38 arcfide: That would be the ideal, yes. I'm still new to the whole macro thing, but I definitely approve of anything that is "safe" by default, and "unsafe" only by explicit declaration. 19:18:04 -!- poe [n=poe@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit [] 19:18:10 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-72-174.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:26:11 -!- Faed is now known as Fade 20:02:52 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:28 peddie_ [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:03 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:20:17 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-77-71.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #scheme 20:24:18 refusenik [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:07 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:30:08 -!- peddie [n=peddie@c-67-169-9-130.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:35:27 dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has joined #scheme 20:37:31 masm [n=masm@a213-22-83-196.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 20:59:43 TimMc: That's why I use SYNTAX-CASE, besides the easy transformation to and from SYNTAX-RULES. 21:01:02 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:54 fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:10:35 -!- copumpkin is now known as pumpkin 21:10:48 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 21:16:42 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["BRB"] 21:18:24 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:18:28 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@users-42-121.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:58 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:24:51 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:25:40 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-42-121.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:27:55 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:28:56 fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:31:17 I dunno how to break hygene with neither syntax-case nor syntax-rules. 21:33:17 synx: Um, did you mean to say that, or did you mean that you didn't know how to break hygiene with either? 21:34:18 was that a subtle joke about hygenic macros? o.O 21:34:23 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 21:34:36 I don't know how to break hygene. 21:35:35 synx: With syntax-rules, while you can do some pretty fancy things with continuations and all sorts of stuff, I do not think you can actually *break* hygiene. 21:35:57 synx: With SYNTAX-CASE, you use 'datum->syntax'. 21:36:23 *mejja* thinks it's fairly easy to break both personal and mental hygiene with syntax-case 21:36:32 Which allows you to introduce syntax objects with arbitrary marks. 21:36:47 fnord1231 [n=fnord123@94-195-126-216.zone9.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:37:08 But the only marks you have are from the syntax form passed to the transformer... where are you supposed to get others? 21:37:39 synx: Generally, you don't, but you can get them elsewhere. Usually, you use the marks from the syntax you are given. 21:38:24 Like I found it impossible to do plt's "require" macro with syntax-case, because it cannot introduce bindings into the module. I only have the context of within the macro, but the um... marks of the module I can't get ahold of. 21:38:30 synx: So, for example, if you wanted to introduce a new definition visible at the place where the macro was called, you could use datum->syntax to construct the identifier. 21:39:43 -!- fnord123_ [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:19 synx: (define-syntax make-x-def (lambda (x) (syntax-case x () [(k) #`(define #,(datum->syntax #'k 'x) 5)]))). Then use it: (x) => 5. 21:41:30 I couldn't say make a macro that did (define-thing 42) and then (= thing 42). (datum->syntax #'x #'thing) would not be the same as if it were the syntax in the form passed to the macro. 21:42:22 wait you confused me there, using x twice... lemme try it 21:42:42 rudybot: eval (define-syntax define-thing (lambda (x) (syntax-case x () [(k val) #`(define #,(datum->syntax #'k 'thing) val)]))) 21:42:43 arcfide: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: |#!r6rs| 21:43:01 rudybot: eval #!r6rs 21:43:01 arcfide: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: |#!r6rs| 21:43:11 rudybot: eval lang scheme 21:43:12 arcfide: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: |#!r6rs| 21:43:27 rudybot: eval #lang scheme 21:43:27 arcfide: error: make-evaluator: bad language spec: |#!r6rs| 21:43:30 Bah! 21:43:46 *arcfide* curses rudybot's offspring. 21:44:05 Not working for me hm... 21:44:33 rudybot: eval (define-syntax make-weird-def (lambda (form) #`(define #,(datum->syntax #'k 'weird) 23))) 21:44:34 synx: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:44:44 rudybot: eval (make-weird-def) 21:44:55 That should have defined weird to 23. 21:45:01 rudybot: eval weird 21:45:01 synx: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: weird in module: 'program 21:45:01 Yeah. 21:45:10 No. 21:45:21 rudybot: help 21:45:22 arcfide: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 21:45:31 rudybot: init scheme 21:45:32 arcfide: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:46:05 rudybot: eval (define-syntax define-thing (lambda (x) (syntax-case x () [(k val) #`(define #,(datum->syntax #'k 'thing) val)]))) 21:46:14 rudybot: eval (define-thing 42) 21:46:19 rudybot: eval thing 21:46:19 arcfide: ; Value: 42 21:46:23 *arcfide* bows. 21:46:37 synx: Voila. 21:46:42 jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has joined #scheme 21:46:57 Good afternoon, jengle. 21:47:02 Why'd you throw that syntax-case in there? Just return the syntax right? 21:47:22 synx: Because I want to destructure the input. 21:47:30 -!- Narrenschiff_ [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:47:36 Sorry, the macro form. I want to get the VAL. 21:47:40 hi arcfide. 21:48:05 Oh right. 21:48:14 I just wanted to do it assuming the value is 42, to keep things simple. 21:48:28 rudybot: eval (define-syntax make-forty-two (lambda (x) #`(define #,(datum->syntax #'x 'forty-two) 42))) 21:48:34 rudybot: (make-forty-two) 21:48:35 arcfide: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 21:48:42 rudybot: eval (make-forty-two) 21:48:47 rudybot: eval forty-two 21:48:48 arcfide: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: forty-two in module: 'program 21:49:10 synx: See. :-) 21:49:42 I don't get it. 21:49:46 The X value there is wrapped or in the scope of the LAMBDA. 21:50:00 -!- refusenik [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:13 (lambda (x) ....) When I reference that X, it introduces the binding inside that lambda, because that is the scope of the X. 21:50:22 arcfide, have you seen my solution to that sieve problem? 21:50:32 jengle: I don't remember if I have or not. 21:50:40 rudybot: eval (define-syntax make-forty-two (lambda (x) #`(define #,(datum->syntax x 'forty-two) 42))) 21:50:48 rudybot: eval (make-forty-two) 21:50:56 rudybot: eval forty-two 21:50:57 synx: ; Value: 42 21:50:58 That's better. 21:51:20 You didn't reference the x though you referenced the syntax #'x 21:51:24 -!- fnord123 [n=fnord123@78-105-27-133.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:25 Right. 21:51:33 x itself is bound to a syntax that is not #'x. 21:51:38 Right. 21:51:59 I think you've got it now, basically. 21:52:25 synx: It's not that hard, right? :-) I like it because it makes it very clear when I am breaking hygiene. And everything else stays hygienic. 21:52:38 But I think I get it. If you say (datum->syntax a b) where a is the form passed to the transformer, and b has non-syntax leaves, then you can break hygene. 21:52:55 b could be a syntax-e style list of syntaxes though, which wouldn't. 21:52:56 synx: No, 'a' here is any syntax object. 21:53:25 No it's not that hard, just I was confused about it. I haven't ever really needed to break hygene before anyway. 21:53:58 a can be any syntax object, but the only way to produce a syntax that has marks in the context it's called is to use the syntax object passed to the transformer. 21:54:11 jengle pasted "sieve" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84776 21:54:54 refusenik [n=Dfowler@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:03 i tried to abstract the idea of sieving as much as i could, but it could probably be written in some way to do that even moreso. 21:55:17 s/written/re-written/ 21:55:33 synx: It is possible to pass syntax-objects around. They can be passed around just like any other object. 21:55:49 The best sieve I ever saw was written in lazy scheme. I could barely understand how it worked, but it was very simple elegant and efficient. 21:55:56 question about (require)...it's used to import another module's methods into the current module, yes? 21:56:09 arcfide: oh no, so you could set! a define-for-syntax global to a syntax object... 21:56:23 synx: If you were so deranged.... 21:56:25 dstorrs: in plt, yes. 21:56:26 so, if I put all of my requires in one file, then just require that into each of the files of my apps, does that give me centralized management of modules? 21:56:46 andy_ [n=andy@87.114.148.38.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #scheme 21:56:49 are there any gotcha's with doing that? 21:56:53 ... 21:57:04 or is that the standard way? 21:57:27 dstorrs: Just require what you need in each module, and then they'll all load when they need to. 21:57:27 dstorrs: your modules should require only the modules they need. Making a "common.ss" module is a good way to leave you scratching your head going "where did I define that again?" 21:58:06 specifically, I'm working with LeftParen right now. 21:58:15 synx: Also note that the 'b' above should just be any datum. It will be converted to syntax. 21:58:31 I know that (almost) every file is going to include leftparent.scm and util.scm 21:59:03 right arcfide, though if it contains syntax, the syntax it contains will retain their markings... 21:59:32 I was thinking not to type that over and over, but just to have a "common.ss" that required those, then include "common.ss" as needed 21:59:41 you could make a language dstorrs :3 21:59:57 heh. 22:00:03 jengle: That sieve seems a bit complex to me. 22:00:06 I'm pretty sure I've just been poked, but I'm not clear on why. 22:00:26 arcfide, how so? 22:00:37 synx: I'm not sure about that...you could try it. 22:00:40 what's the downside to having one central module that requires all the standard pieces? 22:01:17 synx: I think that you're right. If there is a syntax object in a datum that is then wrapped, I think it's wrapped over itself, and the wrappings on the syntax object aren't changed. 22:01:26 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-77.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 22:01:26 The downside is that there should be no "standard" pieces. That probably reflects an error in your program design that leads to high coupling. 22:01:37 spaghetti code can work perfectly well, but it's still all tangled up. 22:01:49 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:01:56 ? 22:01:58 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:02:17 I'm doing an MVC web app. 22:02:27 the plan is to break each C into its own file. 22:02:32 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:02:33 dstorrs: If you have a lot of common functions that you use, there is nothing wrong with writing your own prelude or such to give you the procedures you want, if you like to do things that way. 22:02:47 Each M / V / C will need to require leftparen, util, and maybe one or two others. 22:03:35 Only the controller should need to require the webapp framework? The model is usually database stuff anyway, not anything about the web. 22:04:04 jengle: I'm afraid I can't go into it at the moment, for time reasons, but remind me in a while. :-) 22:04:09 synx: LeftParen handles its own data serialization to disk, as text files. For now, that's good enough. 22:04:25 arcfide, it's okay, i'm going to split for a while anyway. 22:04:28 bbak. 22:04:32 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.88.235] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:51 My model requires database stuff. My view requires formatting and encoding stuff like my XML module. My controller requires the webapp framework, and coordinates between model and view. 22:05:13 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:36 I've never used LeftParen, so don't know if it works well that way. 22:05:42 I do know that every time I've had all my include files in one big "common.h" file though, it's been difficult to maintain. 22:06:01 well of course. But that's not what I'm asking about. 22:06:15 -!- andy_ [n=andy@87.114.148.38.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [] 22:06:16 Maybe just those two modules, and provide one single slick module interface around them. 22:06:28 I'm asking about having one module that requires a small handful of things that I know will be used just about everywhere. 22:07:06 components are free to require other things as needed, of course, and keep them separate 22:07:33 I dunno, I'd just require that handful of things just about everywhere. Doing that usually shows me that they're not required everywhere after all... 22:07:54 ok, good to know. thanks. 22:08:57 anyway, look at the docs for (provide (all-defined-out)) for condensing modules like that. 22:11:36 thanks. 22:11:46 on a related note, what do you normally use for testing your web app 22:11:48 ? 22:12:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 22:17:14 I don't quite follow, you mean unit tests? 22:17:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-3-23.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:33 yes. 22:18:28 are there standard web testing libraries that do things like, e.g., fetch an arbitrary page from the Web and allow you to easily verify it's (title / body / styleseet / etc) or that a response code was 200 on a request ? 22:19:05 s/do things / let you do things / 22:19:14 Oh, no I don't really test those at all. 22:19:27 I do unit tests though, using schemeunit on planet. 22:19:52 what sort of unit tests do you write for your web apps, then? 22:20:42 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:22:12 -!- dysinger [n=dysinger@200.25.197.105] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:35 incubot: only on macports could a `port upgrade gnucash` pull in Qt, OpenGL, and the Enlightened Sound Daemon 22:22:39 man, gnucash actually builds these days. remarkable. 22:23:00 zbigniew: you're kidding? 22:23:29 or maybe that's to incubot actually...I can't even remember how many hours I spent beating my head against GnuCash trying to get it to build 22:24:04 dstorrs: It's busy building qt as we speak. some idiot probably added a dep since last time I built it, macports quality control is very low 22:25:14 dstorrs: I got it to build a year ago after much headbanging, and swore never again, but it started segfaulting recently due to old age. So, here we go again. 22:25:28 Well I'd test if an image imported gets written to the same file as the ID of the image. I'd test if the auto-connect module provides a valid open database handle. I dunno, I'm kind of bad at tests really. 22:26:15 You can observe the properties of baking soda, and you can observe the properties of water, but when you put them all together it makes something else entirely. 22:27:39 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:28:03 MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:28:25 I prefer the combination of baking soda and vinegar; it's a good makeshift scouring powder for those times you need to scrub the stink of macports off you 22:28:43 ...right vinegar. I meant vinegar. 22:29:08 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 22:31:45 ok, question then. I'd like a library that's the equivalent of Perl's LWP--it lets me set up a GET / POST request to an arbitrary url and, afterwards, it tells me the response code and gives me the response doc. 22:32:10 I'm not seeing such a beast on Planet--am I missing it? 22:32:19 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 22:40:39 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:48 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 22:42:41 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:47:33 aha. net/url and xml. cool. 22:47:39 still figuring out what comes built in. 22:48:02 Whoops, after two hours of building gnucash, it crapped out with a library error. Typical. 22:48:14 joy 22:48:18 you have my sympathies. 22:48:56 synx: isn't that endothermic reaction "nothing else entirely", though, for sufficient values of "observe"? 22:49:45 zbigniew: gnucash was written by bean-counters, i heard; not paren-counters 22:50:51 klutometis: is that an oblique way of saying I'm offtopic? ;) If so, point taken 22:53:12 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-47.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:53:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-1-77.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:53:25 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:57:13 -!- MononcQc [n=parseido@modemcable062.225-20-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["DOWNLOADING LATEST VERSION OF THE INTERNET"] 23:00:12 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DD40B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:44 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:19:02 Come to think on it I've been relying on contracts these days a lot more than unit tests. 23:19:42 synx: which is better for code correctness, but does nothing to verify UI correctness. 23:19:50 I've always had to pick unit tests just so arbitrarily. Contracts seem much easier to define. 23:20:40 You can't verify UI correctness without actually looking at the UI. 23:20:41 It's correct, by definition, when it looks right. When it interfaces with the human user properly, that is. 23:21:32 And sure you could define UI contracts. They'd just be on the scale of what possible outputs a human brain could think up, not an easy task as any GM will tell you. 23:22:21 dstorrs: At a certain point you just need to rely on spot-testing during the actual code-writing process. 23:22:36 I suppose what you're really worried about is regressions, yeah? 23:22:49 yes. 23:22:58 well, mostly. 23:24:17 but yes. if I'm working on the Post page, I want the unit tests to keep track of the View, Delete, Tag, etc pages to verify they still work and still show everything they should. 23:24:22 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:24:45 In my experience, most web app regressions take the form of CSS and JS conflicts. 23:25:27 (Then again, most of my experience in web apps is on the client side >_>) 23:26:02 client side as in "paying for them"? or as in "writing the browser"? 23:26:04 :> 23:26:15 writing 23:26:19 'using them'? ;) 23:26:20 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:45 I worked as a web developer for several years on a large e-commerce site. 23:27:13 ah. 23:27:25 The backend was written in ASP/VBScript, and I was glad not to touch it too often. 23:27:39 eew 23:28:05 oh god how are you still alive 23:28:15 They've migrated to ASP.NET/C#, which is arguably nicer. 23:28:38 ASP and VBScript are like PHP...I'm sure there are good developers out there writing good code in those languages, I've just never met them. 23:28:39 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:28:43 Total MS shop, through and through. 23:30:24 Normally it's the guys that are closet Scheme/Haskell/OCaml fanatics, but have to eat. Eh, sjamaan? 23:30:26 what is net/url-unit ?? 23:30:39 there is a mention of it in the http://docs.plt-scheme.org/net/index.html docco, but no details. 23:31:09 Anyway, I never saw the markup generation cause interaction-type regressions. It was always stupid stuff like overly broad CSS selectors, or double-initiation of JS. 23:31:40 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:43 God, CSS is such a maintenance nightmare. 23:32:52 zbigniew: by no means; i was trying to imply that gnucash' problems stem from an army of account-programmers. but maybe that's unfair to accountants 23:33:56 klutometis: the issue actually was macports; I did not successfully remove the dependency on evince, which brought in the entire GNOME userspace 23:34:15 (and still failed to compile ;) 23:34:44 klutometis: you'll get a laugh out of this (admittedly, a dry jaded laugh): I worked at a shop doing fnancial programing at one point. Our boss, may fleas nest in his armpits, once commented that all his programmers were so thick about 23:34:55 understanding the accounting, it would be easier to hire accountants and teach them programming. 23:35:39 dstorrs: That's terrible. 23:36:00 *arcfide* may be taking a PHP Web Developer position. 23:36:02 Though there *are* a lot of programmers who fail at domain-specific learning. 23:36:33 But I intend to switch the company over if I do get hired. :-) I already have some people in there willing to consider Scheme based web solutions. 23:36:35 yep. same guy, when we went to him with some suggestions on how to be more efficient and productive, commented "I don't know what you're all complaining about. I've got a dozen guys lined up for each of your jobs." 23:36:40 That's an exact quote. 23:36:54 Most professional programmers fail at domain-inspecific learning for that matter. 23:37:33 zbigniew: huh. That's not my experience. 23:37:46 most programmers I've known are good at soaking up anything that interests them. 23:37:55 arcfide: Just write something to translate Scheme->PHP. 23:37:58 Done! 23:38:13 TimMc: BITE YOUR TONGUE, SIR! 23:38:39 *TimMc* whistles absentmindedly 23:38:48 might as well suggest translating Shakespearean sonnets into 1337. 23:38:51 dstorrs: On the internet, yes. Commercially, no. 23:39:09 dstorrs: he might be correct unfortunately. or, at least, that seems to be correct in the domains of physics and bioinformatics 23:40:39 hm. Well, I certainly don't have the background to debate it. It seems unlikely to me...how are you defining "fail at"? In order to succeed, must they achieve the level of expertise as a specialist? 23:40:49 Are the people in question interested in the subject? 23:40:55 Seems like a hard study to do, to me. 23:44:22 "success" can be defined as fooling an interviewer who knows less about the subject than you do 23:44:35 heh. 23:45:24 TimMc: Hah! And then I'd have to find some way to translate PHP->Scheme to handle patches that other developers create. No, I think not. 23:46:10 Rather, it would be much better for me to gain some credibility by producing nice PHP (*SARDONIC, CRAZED LAUGH*) and then, when they need something else created, to do it in Scheme. ;-) I've done that before, and it has worked. 23:46:50 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-214-72.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 23:46:57 I got hired as Director of Programming for a PHP shop 23:47:17 managed to be there the whole time and never write a line of PHP. I just did it in Perl. 23:47:28 arcfide: It is possible to write nice PHP. I've written a decent framework for myself that I just clone over for quick'n'dirty web projects. 23:47:53 But dear lord, the defensive coding does wear on you. 23:48:44 actually, that's something I've been meaning to ask about. 23:49:01 one thing I've noticed is that the Scheme code I'm seeing has a lot less error checking than I'm used to. 23:49:12 some of that must be due to automatic checking done by contracts 23:49:21 but that can't account for it all, surely? 23:49:24 any thoughts? 23:50:03 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:50:39 dstorrs: Many people don't bother to worry about error checking, but I assure you that profession Scheme has plenty of error checking. 23:51:11 mostly I'm commenting on the stuff on Planet. 23:51:14 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 23:51:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:51:27 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 23:51:37 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-uetchbwfhyutaekw] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:42 dstorrs: Depending on your error checking philosophy, you may or may not want to rely on the error checking provided by built in primitives to catch things. This works okay if it is pretty clear that a bad value will be caught early on. If this is not the case, then usually a check will be done at the entry of the procedure or close to it to verify its arguments if necessary. 23:52:13 channel: Could someone point me to a small Scheme program made of multiple files that illustrates good coding practices? 23:52:19 I learn a lot by example. 23:52:37 dstorrs: I don't know the type of code that is in planet, but in the sockets library I am writing, I verify my arguments are of the right record type before beginning, because this is never checked down the road. 23:52:47 TimMc: Um..... 23:53:01 *Good coding practices* . . . hm... 23:53:59 arcfide: consider that to satisfy (or/c "you have respect for the author" "code is widely used" "code is used in a major project") 23:55:20 Hehe, I have respect for myself. :-) He could read the Alpha Quality Descot code...:-P 23:56:19 Descot ? 23:56:22 TimMc: You could check out some of Riastradh parscheme code... 23:56:38 as in the county from the Drake / Stirling books ? 23:56:42 dstorrs: My project to make a decentralized library distribution framework. 23:56:53 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 23:57:25 dstorrs: It's designed to give CPAN benefits to the Scheme community without forcing lot's of philosophical changes or cultural changes in the community. 23:57:40 I'm in the process of getting it ready for people to use. 23:58:00 which benefits are you looking for? 23:58:19 arcfide: Are you targeting only R6RS? 23:58:30 Also, ``lot's''? 23:58:38 the testing / easy submission ? because planet seems to handle deployment. 23:58:48 dstorrs: Eash searching and discovery of libraries, the ability to easy distribute libraries to make them widely available, easy to index and work with programmatically, &c. 23:59:14 dstorrs: PLaneT handles deployment for one specific implementation, Descot is about as neutral as you can get. 23:59:23 dstorrs: PLaneT could use Descot for example. 23:59:28 ah, ok.