00:00:18 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:07 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 00:10:32 leppie is a guy, right? 00:16:07 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:02 either way "lolcow" sounds a bit gay... 00:18:42 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 00:20:16 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:22:23 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:59 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:24:19 syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has joined #scheme 00:24:25 ponzao__1: Please fix your IRC client. This is getting annoying. 00:24:54 is there a scheme compiler implementation that generates something a little more human-readable? 00:26:03 Compilers aren't supposed to produce human-readable code. They're supposed to produce correct and efficient code. 00:26:17 Why are you reading the output? 00:28:06 perhaps...he is a machine! 00:28:41 Ah, but he said human-readable. Why would a machince care about that? 00:29:27 ghost mach in e... because it wanted to be treated humanely? 00:31:09 because it wanted to fool all of us, obviously 00:31:13 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 00:31:14 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@89.146.167.46] has joined #scheme 00:31:15 clever machine! 00:32:12 ponzao___: Please fix your IRC client. The constant joins and parts are getting annoying. 00:32:31 I mean a compiler that produces identifiers that make sense to humans. 00:32:39 As for assembly, I can read that just fine. 00:33:25 minion: advice for syntropy 00:33:25 syntropy: #11950: Now you are just being superstitious. 00:33:50 That wasn't quite relevant. 00:34:07 Ahh, yes, it's superstitious to ask for relevant function/object identifiers in code. 00:34:17 minion: advice on compilers, please? 00:34:17 #11907: Looking for a compiler bug is the strategy of LAST resort. LAST resort. 00:34:44 This....is entertaining. 00:34:51 minion: advice on relavence 00:34:51 You can't expect automated advice for everything. 00:35:09 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 00:35:15 And the default is actually relevant for once. 00:35:22 lol 00:36:03 heh 00:36:04 Which compilers have you tried so far? 00:36:21 chandler: Scheme48, which I didn't like the VM bytecode. and Chicken. 00:36:42 I like Chicken's method and princple, but it's not something readable. 00:37:01 And once again, why do you care specifically? Are you planning to hack on the implementation? 00:37:30 If so, this would be a great first project! 00:37:43 *chandler* blames psyntax in Chicken's case. 00:37:58 perhaps fix it... you could at least add a quick placebo of --readable-ids switch.. 00:37:59 chandler: Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about a modified prescheme compiler following Chicken's princple. 00:38:02 psyntax? 00:38:16 I thought Chicken had its own in-house macro expander these days. 00:38:17 principle* 00:38:29 Oh, right. I forgot about that. 00:38:39 (Complete with its own in-house bugs.) 00:39:15 This is also reminding me that I need to investigate why Chicken won't build on a certain upcoming operating system in the big cat family. 00:39:29 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:39:57 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 00:40:54 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 00:41:08 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 00:41:10 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:19 Apropos of which, SBCL on NetBSD is out of date again. 00:49:37 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-4309.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:21 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:11 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:02:42 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:03:14 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has left #scheme 01:04:15 -!- jiimmy_ [n=mts82@c-24-128-82-230.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:05:55 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 01:06:30 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:09:17 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:18:48 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-17051a350aa84ac2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:45 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:47 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:25 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 01:20:32 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:23:43 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:26:38 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:28 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:11 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:36:39 ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:46:06 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:47:07 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:34 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:48:43 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:46 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:49:47 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 01:51:08 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 01:59:41 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 02:02:37 -!- blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:21 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 02:11:00 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:11:30 -!- ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:13:39 can someone do something about this ponzao guy? he's gotten a few warnings 02:14:32 *eli* slaps #rx"ponzao.*" 02:14:36 Does this help? 02:14:45 Or maybe it's too PLT-specific? 02:14:50 can't hurt (except for him, maybe) 02:16:59 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 02:17:15 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh 02:17:35 -!- Riastradh has set mode +b *!*__*@n=ve*@a243-120.24online.fi 02:19:02 thank you 02:19:16 -!- Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh 02:19:51 His client will disconnect a few more times, and when an actual human finds out what was going on, he will probably return without underscores. 02:20:08 (That is, his three clients will lose their connections eventually.) 02:22:05 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has left #scheme 02:27:15 NorthStar [n=email@89-180-141-165.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 02:27:39 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:29:28 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 02:32:28 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:32:32 -!- camt [n=camt@24.244.242.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:33:18 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.164.181] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:36:04 -!- NorthStar is now known as TR2N 02:36:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:40:05 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 02:41:45 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:42:26 i've been thinking about how to store datatypes in a scheme implementation. 02:42:54 is it better to store it in the 1st byte (little endian) or the last? 02:48:01 *Riastradh* blinks. 02:49:29 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 02:52:15 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:52:19 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:03 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176222098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:31 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:54:56 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@89.146.167.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:50 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:00:00 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:22 ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:06:33 Huh... 03:07:11 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:18 In playing around with encrypted file formats, I realize that it's possible to identify when your public key fails to properly decrypt a session key. It somehow detects that and raises an exception, instead of just returning a garbage session key. 03:08:00 the inside of RSA is typically done with a particular padding scheme 03:08:16 that allow you to determine with reasonable probability that you're getting garbage 03:09:11 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176208093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:44 Ah that makes sense. 03:09:51 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:10:23 I also sneak my own little check character in there, since I figure failing to decrypt a session key is a hefty operation. Not sure if that would help or not though... 03:10:28 PKCS.1! 03:10:58 there are two main standards for encryption padding in RSA 03:11:06 Yeah how about no ~_~ 03:11:08 one of them is half deprecated :P 03:11:15 they're pretty simple :) 03:11:22 really? 03:11:24 well the old one is very simple, the new one is a bit complicated 03:11:56 I never could quite grok the stuff the RSA people put out. All s-expressions, but when you open the files it's just a bunch of binary. 03:12:05 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:05 -!- datkin_ [n=datkin@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:12:22 well rivest was trying to push s-expressions as the format for storing things like certs 03:12:29 but it didn't catch on and the nastiness that is ASN.1 did instead 03:12:40 :/ 03:12:53 sounds pretty political. :/ 03:12:55 I liked his paper about s-expressions 03:12:57 ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:12:57 datkin_ [n=datkin@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:13:04 I'm sure 03:13:08 I still don't understand exactly what good certificates are anyway. 03:13:20 certificates are a way of having someone else certify your identity 03:13:20 in what sense? 03:13:22 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Success] 03:13:24 That's probably a lost cause to teach me though. 03:13:37 it's not very convincing to say "I'm me cause I say so" 03:13:39 :) 03:13:46 I don't see how certifying my identity is advantageous for me or the person I'm communicating with. 03:14:15 synx: for signed email for example... email is horribly insecure, so having signatures on that helps get rid of pranksters and various other nastiness 03:14:31 but signatures alone aren't enough, if you can't verify that it wasn't a prankster who signed it 03:14:31 and verify that it came from the person it says it came from 03:14:36 SMTP allows trivial email spoofing 03:14:47 yeah 03:14:49 Well here's the thing. 03:14:55 you know what does verify certificates? money! 03:15:09 yeah, how it actually works is lamer than how it should work :P 03:15:40 If I self sign a certificate saying I'm a synx, and you trust that, then anyone could impersonate my identity, but nobody could duplicate the effects of my key. 03:16:19 self-signed certificates are insecure for this reason 03:16:31 If I get a certificate signed by Big Mister Pants Corp saying I'm a synx, and you trust that, the only thing that does is give the ability to impersonate carte blanche to the BMPC. 03:16:31 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:17:01 It just shifts the ability to fool people into a smaller amount of more powerful hands. You still can't trust it, because my certificate authority might be trying to fool you. 03:17:02 correct 03:17:15 but we are paying them to ensure that they don't, if you will 03:17:23 if they did, and we caught them, their very profitable business would disappear 03:17:30 so the profit motive leads them towards not doing that 03:17:37 and self-interest is one of the most reliable motivators in existence 03:18:06 You'd think so, but they only have to make you think they're legit. A lot of those companies are very shady. 03:18:21 I agree 03:18:34 They can get away with ruining just a few important situations, and being trustworthy in general. You don't see it coming until they've gotten to your door. 03:18:45 the idea is that they actually can't 03:19:00 It's like the store vendor who puts up a sign saying "Will not swindle women and young children." 03:19:11 e.g., if verisign actually did compromise someone's cert, 1) you'd be able to prove it (or forcefully assert it) and 2) you'd be able to prove it to other people 03:19:28 in particular, if you get yourself signed by more CAs, you'd have a good case if they ever faked a cert as being from you 03:19:36 I'm not so sure about that. 03:19:46 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Success] 03:19:50 They could always claim that I really did have that cert. It'd be my word against theirs. 03:20:05 Anyway, so... 03:20:09 My philosophy is when someone contacts me by a new unknown key, I can only trust what identifies them if it's signed by that key. 03:20:11 unless all your other certs are signed by multiple other parties 03:20:15 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:20:27 if someone contacts you with an unknown key, you can trust precisely nothing 03:20:43 it remains the case that the only really trustworthy way to do key exchange is in person 03:20:52 we host key-exchange parties here relatively often 03:21:11 Someone says "I'm Lawrence Thomson" and I'm like okay, w/ev, but when they send me a signed message accurately predicting that a man named Lawrence Thomson will approach me at the old oak tree, I have more reason to trust that key to be owned by the guy I meet. 03:21:19 -!- ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- datkin_ [n=datkin@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:19 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:21:37 That still involves an exchange of information in a channel which can't be MITMed 03:22:10 If someone sends me a valuable file signed by a certain key, I might conclude that the owner of that key will send me more valuable files in the future. If someone tries to spam me with a certain key, I can obviously conclude that key isn't trustworthy, even if it's 100% certified to be Rick James, bitch. 03:22:15 datkin_ [n=datkin@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 ray [i=ray@drong.notacat.org] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 03:22:15 joast [n=rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 03:22:30 The thing about MitM is it can't be stopped. Not 100%. 03:22:53 in meatspace it can :P 03:22:57 So I find companies that certify people to have a questionable effect on MitM attacks, if any. 03:23:06 hm? 03:23:18 since amazon's server cert is signed by verisign, the only person that can do a MITM attack is verisign 03:23:21 No, even in meatspace. How am I supposed to know the guy I met by the old oak tree is Lawrence Thomson? Maybe he's just hired to pretend, or is a secret agent. 03:23:24 that's a lot better than "the internet at large" 03:23:33 no, that's not what I mean about meatspace 03:23:52 Well if Amazon self signed their certificate, then the only person who can do a MitM attack is Amazon. 03:23:56 what I mean about meatspace is if I hand you a key in meatspace, and then send you messages encrypted with that key, you know the message was from the person you met in meatspace 03:23:59 no, false 03:24:05 self-signed certificates can be forged by anyone 03:24:10 it's simple 03:24:21 a self-signed cert works like this: generate a key which says it is from amazon. sign it with itself. send it out. 03:24:26 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.15.184] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:24:29 note that at no point in the process do you actually need to *be* amazon 03:24:30 No, if you have Amazon's certificate, nobody can switch that for a fake one. 03:24:41 except there's no such thing as "amazon's certificate" 03:24:46 Unless they hack your box lol 03:24:56 unless you are proposing that they preinstall a certificate in your browser like verisign does 03:25:01 which is an obviously untenable strategy 03:25:29 Well, Verisign kind of forces their way into being installed on my browser, whether I agree with it or not. I uninstall their certificates generally. 03:25:35 when you connect to amazon's server, as part of the SSL negotiation, it presents you a certificate and says "This is my server certificate, and you know it really belongs to amazon.com because verisign signed it, and you know verisign signed it because you have their certificate." 03:25:50 I know how it works. I just don't see how it's any more secure. 03:25:53 if amazon self-signs it, then the exchange is instead "This is my server certificate, and you know it really belongs to amazon.com because it is signed with itself." 03:26:03 because it means that only verisign can do MITMs instead of all and sundry 03:26:08 It's just shifting the blind trust to a large authority, instead of many small authorities. 03:26:17 Why should I trust that it's Amazon.com at all? 03:26:19 it's not "many small authorities", it's *everyone* 03:26:24 including verisign! 03:26:27 verisign can do the MITM in either case 03:26:35 but *everyone else* can only do it when it's self-signed 03:26:42 I do not see how you can't see that that is an improvement 03:27:07 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:27:18 I don't see how you can trust just any key, just because your browser comes pre-hacked to trust it. 03:27:27 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:27:30 that's up to you 03:27:46 but you do see why having your certs signed by verisign is an improvement, right? 03:27:54 it dramatically reduces the amount of people that can execute MITM attacks 03:28:02 Anyway, when I meet someone who has a certain public key, I cannot conclude that they have the private key. I could carry Linus Torvalds' public key to you, but that wouldn't make me Linus... 03:28:10 er, no 03:28:21 It dramatically increases the amount of MitM attacks those fewer amount of people can execute. 03:28:22 but if you then sent me a message that was signed with that private key 03:28:32 I'd be convinced that you were linus torvalds 03:28:34 um, no it doesn't 03:28:39 Well maybe Linus sent you a message. 03:28:46 if the cert is self-signed, everyone can MITM; if it's not, Verisign can MITM 03:28:50 in *either* case Linus sent me a message 03:28:54 since only Linus has Linus's private key 03:29:03 whether I got the public key from you or him is irrelevant 03:29:08 Yes, but you can't conclude therefore that I'm Linus just because I gave you his key. 03:29:16 of course not 03:29:30 So if you meet someone, who gives you a key, that tells you nothing about the person who actually owns the private key. 03:29:35 that's not how the SSL handshake works though 03:29:57 the SSL handshake, immediately after giving you the cert, sends a key exchange message signed with that cert's private key 03:30:03 thus proving that they posess the cert's private key 03:30:42 My thought is that Verisign is building up a huge amount of power, and they can cut and run Enron style and screw us all over quite mightily. Just because they don't do that often doesn't make it a good idea to trust them. 03:30:49 how can they cut and run? 03:31:06 synx: a lot of people are bothered by the notion of a "root of trust" 03:31:11 but it's hard to avoid it 03:31:25 I have yet to see an architecture that does not require a root of trust 03:31:25 a fair amount of research goes into the public key infrastructure 03:31:28 yeah 03:31:38 sometimes the root of trust is a meatspace person instead of a company 03:31:42 (i.e., the PGP model) 03:31:48 but there's always someone you trust in your system 03:32:04 having verisign and thawte &c as trusted third parties is a lot better than having *everyone* as a trusted third party, though 03:32:14 It really goes back to the philosophy of Hobbes and Locke. I don't agree that a Leviathan is necessary for a stable peaceful society. People who think Verisign is a good thing disagree with me. 03:32:24 Elly: How about nobody as a trusted party? 03:32:30 then you can't have a pubkey system 03:32:38 nobody has produced an infrastructure with no trusted parties 03:32:51 it is widely conjectured that MITM attacks simply cannot be avoided without a trusted third party 03:32:54 Sure you can. You just don't trust what comes signed by the public keys initially. 03:32:58 um, no 03:33:04 because then the entire communication is compromised 03:33:18 MitM attacks cannot be avoided even with a trusted third party. Like I said it's just shifting and centralizing the power to do so. 03:33:18 a man in the middle can switch the cert, do the transaction with both of you, and read your plaintext 03:33:32 no, that is not true 03:33:39 Someone with that kind of power probably already has Verisign certificates. 03:33:41 what you are asserting is that the trusted third party may not be trustworthy 03:33:45 which is an *entirely* different matter 03:33:59 What then, a trusted fourth party? :p 03:34:00 we do agree that if you have a trustworthy third party, you can make MITM attacks impossible, right? 03:34:21 I don't really care if there's a man in the middle. If that's the case, then I'm talking to the man in the middle, not the destined recipient. 03:34:28 right, and you are owned! 03:34:32 that's how a MITM attack *works* 03:34:34 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:34:47 if you have a trustworthy third party doing certification for you, you can guarantee that you are not owned in that fashion 03:35:07 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:35:40 If I take a copy of every email I get and forward them to my friend, then oh my gosh I've become a MitM! 03:35:42 But you wouldn't even think you're talking to my friend, since you're talking to the man in the middle in the first place. 03:35:50 synx: but you don't know you are 03:35:57 the MITM does not announce their presence to you 03:36:02 So if someone intercepts my encryption and tries to field between me and a third party, that interceptor is the person I'm talking to. If I assume everyone is such a person, then I don't have any vulnerability to MitM. 03:36:13 er 03:36:17 but then you can't exchange any secrets 03:36:21 so your security system is kind of moot 03:36:43 Well what I could exchange is another method of communication. 03:36:47 like what? 03:37:32 If I can arrange for my key to be delivered by parcel post, it might differ from a MitM attacker's key, if they can't control the postal system. I could easily negotiate such a thing even with a MitM spying on us. 03:37:49 correct, but that method assumes you already have a trustworthy method of communication available 03:38:06 in which case you might as well just send your secret over postal mail 03:38:17 Or you could do that meatspace thing. Or another IM network. Or another ISP. Or a public library terminal. Or a bulletin board in city hall. 03:38:38 all except the first of those the MITM now knows about, because you just told him 03:38:57 and furthermore in all of those cases, you are assuming that you have access to another trustworthy channel which you wish to switch to 03:39:00 I'm just saying that if someone has the power to control all forms of communication you can make with another person, then Verisign is the least of your worries, and certainly not immune to that control. 03:39:03 in which case the problem is vastly easier 03:39:05 oh my god, you guys are doing pseudo-security again? ;) 03:39:17 synx: your faux-security verges on the neurotic. end of story. 03:39:17 synx: sure, but good protocols should work in presence of someone who can control *all* forms of communication your system has 03:39:34 You can't be totally secure, and sending $20 to Verisign doesn't seem to help much, to me. 03:39:41 in particular, if the router you talk to the internet via is compromised, your protocol should never allow false conversations 03:40:09 ugh 03:40:15 here's a simple example of how to avoid MITM attacks 03:40:22 which I (and maybe you) are undertaking right now 03:40:25 My claim is that you can only be sure you don't have a man in the middle, if you already have the keys for the people you're talking with. 03:40:35 yes, that is true 03:40:57 however, you can be more confident than you would otherwise be if their keys are signed by a trustworthy third party 03:41:07 that is why people use verisign and thawte and so on 03:41:16 I could send my name and blood sample to the government and they could tell you that you're definitely talking to me for sure no way it's possibly faked, and that will work 99.9% of the time. 03:41:47 in your mind, which risk is larger: Verisign doing a MITM attack, or a group of eastern european hackers owning a random box between you and amazon and MITMing? 03:41:55 But the 0.1% of the time it doesn't work are the only times you really do need to be secure. 03:42:02 99.9% of the time is *great!* 03:42:06 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:42:13 if we can reduce the number of attacks by a factor of a thousand, we're heroes! 03:42:19 The thing is you don't trust a group of eastern european hackers as much as you do Verisign. I don't trust either of 'em. 03:42:25 all of security is about best effort 03:42:28 which do you trust less, synx? 03:43:05 synx: i'll still think you're straining gnats and swallowing camels, mein freund 03:43:20 s/i'll/i/ 03:43:33 delicately put. 03:43:37 heh 03:43:39 No, the thing is it's not evenly distributed. It's like sitting in a concrete bunker for 3 hours, then going out in a lightning storm with a metal rod for 10 seconds, and concluding that lightning rods are 99.9% safe. 03:43:39 all of security is about best effort 03:43:59 synx: no it isn't, because verisign is equally likely to do MITM attacks under either circumstance 03:44:07 they have equal ability to do so in both schemes 03:44:11 The only time a lightning rod isn't safe in that situation is the time when you really really need it to be safe. 03:44:20 synx: your metaphor is not right, though 03:44:56 So when you do online shopping, the government will seem calmly complacent. But when the jackboots are kicking down your door that 0.1% of the time, you'll be getting signed messages from all your friends saying everything's fine and nothing's going down. 03:44:57 why do you think verisign is more likely to do MITM attacks under the current system than under a self-signing free-for-all? 03:45:22 your threat model seems to be ignoring boring actual risks in favor of fantastic conspiracy theories 03:45:43 911 never happened!1!!!!1 03:45:44 I'm saying Verisign is a huge MitM attack waiting to happen, instead of a lot of small ones happening during the period of time when they remain "trustworthy" 03:45:59 how is verisign a huge MitM attack waiting to happen? 03:46:07 s/91/9\/1/ 03:46:09 let's suppose, hypothetically, that they decide to MITM every internet communication ever 03:46:14 hypothetically, okay? 03:46:15 They can MitM everyone who uses every browser everywhere all at once. 03:46:24 this is the biggest possible MITM attack, and they own all internet links 03:46:29 And you people trust certificates, so it would have a huge effect. 03:46:36 now, let's suppose that everyone is self-signed, and they decide to do the same thing 03:46:47 they can execute *exactly the same attack*, except it doesn't even need to have their fingerprints on it! 03:46:58 It's not that I'm advocating self signed certificates. I just don't like certificates in the first place. 03:46:58 they can still MITM every single self-signed cert without even signing fake certs! 03:47:11 yes, but that's because you think security is all-or-nothing 03:47:22 If everyone used no certificates at all, Verisign could execute the self same attack, and nobody would trust it for a moment. 03:47:23 you are the kind of person that would leave their front door unlocked because a SEAL team might blast their way in anyway 03:47:33 but then nobody could do anything over the internet 03:47:52 you are proposing that we avoid the security problem of amazon by shutting down amazon 03:48:09 You're the kind of person who locks your front door and leaves the back window open. 03:48:13 no, I'm not 03:48:33 I *am* the kind of person that locks my front door and does not sweat that my locksmith can break into my house. 03:48:36 Hey, a little security is better than none right? Why worry about the back window? 03:48:42 Unless you're paranoid or something? 03:48:55 your comparison is not correct 03:49:01 the locksmith is the trusted third party here 03:49:30 I have reduced the set of people that can break into my house from everyone to one party 03:49:40 arguably, the locksmith can perform a worse attack, because I trust my house to be secure 03:49:42 The locksmith doesn't get a key to my house, any more than the restaurant gets to copy my credit card. 03:49:44 but the alternative is to have nothing valuable 03:49:51 the locksmith absolutely can get a key to your house 03:50:07 if they install the lock and have the key for it, they can copy it with no difficulty 03:50:07 No they just copy the key you have and give you both copies. 03:50:14 right. Both of the three. 03:50:25 but seriously, the amount of trusted parties has been reduced dramatically 03:50:30 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:31 Why should the locksmith have a key? They don't need it. It's about as stupid as trusting Verisign. 03:50:50 even if the locksmith doesn't have a key, they certainly have the tools to open any locked door 03:50:51 Meh, nevermind. I'm tired of beating my head against the wall. 03:50:59 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.43.160] has joined #scheme 03:51:08 your conception of security is so backwards that it is hard to describe 03:51:16 you badly need to read Practical Cryptography 03:51:25 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:51:30 synx: dialectic with you reminds me of dialectic with fundamentalist christians ;) 03:51:36 Right I'm ignorant, and haven't read that and disagreed with it. 03:51:39 synx: there are TWO keys working in SSL certs... not one. 03:51:50 it's kind of like that... synx is operating from a fundamentally different set of principles 03:51:50 I couldn't possibly disagree, so the only logical conclusion is I'm uneducated. 03:52:08 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:08 synx: actually, yes, you are uneducated. The argument you are making is flawed at such a deep level that it is difficult to explain. 03:52:23 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:25 you seem not to grasp the concept of best-effort security 03:52:56 which is making it intensely difficult to explain why best-effort security exists and why we continue to use it 03:53:00 I do grasp the concept of information barons taking all our identities and calling all the shots. 03:53:12 but they could do that under either system. 03:53:19 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:53:20 no certs or them signing the certs 03:53:26 either way, someone can impersonate you 03:53:28 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 03:53:43 best-effort security doesn't mean selling out to a few elite authorities. It means only trusting what is encrypted by the key, and nothing outside of it. 03:53:48 the question is whether J. Random Hacker can do it. 03:53:56 synx: no, that's *not* what best-effort security means 03:54:25 please, please, please go read a book. Best-effort security starts with a threat model; what attacks you care about, what attacks you are able to protect against, and what attacks the system cannot protect against 03:54:31 I'd rather jrandom can do it than everyone is powerless except for the high rulers of everything. 03:54:41 so um 03:54:45 let me ask you a question 03:54:49 does your machine have a password to log in? 03:54:59 Look, I said I'm done. 03:55:03 if so, why? wouldn't you rather that everyone could compromise it rather than just the NSA? 03:55:13 I told you it was a lost cause in the first place. 03:55:14 lol 03:55:26 I love IRC discussions 03:55:36 copumpkin: indeed :\ 03:56:02 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 03:56:41 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-145-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:57:17 oh, it became 2357 somehow 03:57:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:20 *Elly* -> bed 03:57:24 -!- snurble 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["Leaving."] 04:21:45 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 04:23:36 mbishop: yes, a guy 04:23:43 sladegen: sorry, not gay 04:23:44 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:23:47 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:24:51 leppie: and your name is "Lewellyn"? 04:25:09 no, it's Llewellyn 04:26:09 that's...very girly sounding :P 04:26:25 it's welsh, what do you expect? :p 04:26:38 heh 04:26:49 that's why I was wondering your gender, saw blog posts and was like "hmmm" 04:26:49 and damn hard to spell, and say :( 04:27:09 i sound like a girl? :( 04:27:48 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 04:31:50 Yay, Cymru! 04:31:55 *foof* is 1/4 Welsh 04:39:21 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:42:19 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 04:50:29 foof: just the name is welsh, nothing else 04:50:59 i have british origins from 1860 but not sure if that is welsh or not 04:51:36 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:51:48 *foof* ignores the poser 04:51:54 :P 04:52:12 the name is enough of a curse,ok? 04:52:14 :p 04:53:20 i have seen so many different variations in spelling of my name, sometimes very funny 04:56:50 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:57:12 off to work :( 04:58:10 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:59:50 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 05:07:59 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:08:28 mbishop: what are you kidding? llewellyn was a total badass in No Country for Old Men 05:08:56 second only to anton chigurh 05:09:03 I never saw that movie 05:09:09 mbishop: dude, you're missing out 05:09:11 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has 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[n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #scheme 11:32:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:43:37 weekend! 11:44:58 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:21 yay! 11:47:08 leppie you might be amused at this: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.guile.bugs/4281 11:50:10 ooo broken gensyms :p I suffix a timestamp too 11:51:57 i hit that issue with bootstrapping 11:53:47 aziz made some changes to his version of psyntax, that helped a lot with the time taking to expand 11:54:20 while the person he did it for, didnt see much of an improvement, I got almost 100% improvement. 11:54:36 or 50% depending on how you look at it 11:56:39 it involved reusing the inner parts of expander, instead of generating it everytime 11:56:50 IIRC syntax-match and friends 11:57:20 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:09 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:59:09 wingo: question, you do convert let/let* into semantically correct assignments, instead of creating closures? 11:59:46 leppie: what do you mean? 12:01:29 say in C terms, you term a let into an assignment eg: int a = 1, instead of doing int foo(int a) { return a; } and calling it? 12:01:40 s/term/transform/ 12:02:56 inlining loops helps tons too (from a GC perspective anyways) 12:04:49 not really inlining, but replacing tail calls with a jump to the start of the loop (given you can safely do that) 12:05:56 if i understand you correctly, yes. 12:06:07 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:06:22 ok, as that was one of the things that did help out a lot for psyntax 12:07:08 wingo pasted "you mean like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84130 12:07:13 but if you could possible merge those changes from psyntax it would help a lot, as you do not have to 'recompile/reevalute' the code 12:07:51 yeah, exactly liek that :) 12:08:05 :) 12:08:46 i am unhappy at having to go to 32-bit instructions. the vm will be slower. 12:10:27 also if you look at syntax-case-transformer as an example, I remember the older version closed over all those procs in the body, where they are really not needed 12:10:59 but that's really the job of the compiler 12:11:20 if something isn't referenced, it's not captured -- at least, with flat closures 12:12:21 ahh ok, my compiler sucks with things like that still 12:13:18 and I have no ambition to workfix someone else's junk (the DLR), so I am leaving almost all my optimizations out for now 12:13:37 does the dlr have native support for closures? 12:13:45 but the time is coming soon for the new compiler 12:14:40 it uses a ribcage like representation with tuple records of sizes 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,then it shifts to some hashtable I think 12:15:23 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 12:15:30 the problem is that you cant generate records running in a limited environment like Silverlight, so I understand why they did it 12:16:25 it's very basic, and is probably good enough for python :) 12:16:47 I still beat the pants of IronPython for speed though 12:17:02 and startup time 0.2 s vs 10 secs 12:17:19 I even beat ikarus for memory usage :) 12:18:18 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 12:18:51 but my initial memory is quite high, 20MB just for the REPL :( but thats .NET for you, anyways, 20mb nowadays is a miniscule fraction of system memory 12:19:22 heh 12:19:53 comparing to other .NET progs, it's pretty much inline with what I expect 12:21:52 wingo: so from that post I assume guile is a stackbased bytecode interpreter? 12:22:03 leppie: yes 12:22:26 similar to mosh then 12:24:35 that should transform quite well to .NET or the JVM then, I think. But without continuations 12:29:23 foof` [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 12:32:48 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:34:05 -!- dzhus is now known as pepyaka 12:34:10 -!- pepyaka is now known as dzhus 12:47:42 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:33 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@68.45.192.148] has quit [] 12:49:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-164.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:49:58 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:50:31 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 12:54:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 12:58:57 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-58-211-56.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["The Lord of Murder Shall Perish."] 13:00:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:04:31 -!- Edico 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:) 16:23:25 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:23:58 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-108-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 16:27:02 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-108-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 16:27:43 r5rs call-with-values 16:28:06 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:09 saccade_ [n=saccade@MEDICAL-NINETY.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:34:07 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 16:36:14 foof`: does scheme-complete determine how call-with-values is indented? 16:39:34 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:39:38 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 16:43:30 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@MEDICAL-NINETY.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:46:14 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.206.212] has joined #scheme 16:51:58 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.197.29] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:25 borism [n=boris@195.50.206.236] has joined #scheme 16:57:25 borism__ [n=boris@195.50.200.200] has joined #scheme 16:57:31 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195.50.206.212] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:22 How do you convert a bytes to a r6rs bytevector? 17:01:02 I need to seek is the problem, and don't want to convert all string ports to temp files. 17:02:31 -!- borism [n=boris@195.50.206.236] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:08:04 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195.50.200.200] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:33 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:17:41 Manuel12343245 [i=5c4c9629@gateway/web/freenode/x-ec710b253b5f4d3e] has joined #scheme 17:17:55 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-108-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:16 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-109-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 17:21:23 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:46 hi, I try to use the chicken egg easyffi but can't get it to work: csc sdl.scm sdl.c:12:17: error: SDL.h: No such file or directory . I have got SDL.h in /usr/include/SDL/ , does anybody know what went wrong? 17:22:12 -!- Manuel12343245 [i=5c4c9629@gateway/web/freenode/x-ec710b253b5f4d3e] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:28 Manuel1234567 [i=5c4c9629@gateway/web/freenode/x-245775b25158ab55] has joined #scheme 17:23:15 ehm, i asked the question... : / accidentaly disconnected 17:23:40 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 17:24:01 -I /usr/include/SDL I imagine. 17:24:19 Or #include "SDL/SDL.h" 17:25:07 already tried the second, didnt work 17:30:02 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:31:35 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:30 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:33:39 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:36:32 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:39:09 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:42:48 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:44:31 chupish [n=951c03d5@baconfile.com] has joined #scheme 17:50:20 -!- socialite [n=piespy@78.8.143.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:41 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 17:54:03 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-149-178.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 17:54:40 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 17:55:00 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:55:54 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 18:02:20 mwuh, plt support for r6rs is still sketchy I guess 18:02:24 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/parameter-broke.ss 18:04:04 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:53 evoli [n=yuhsin@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:25 synz yai, got it :) 18:07:44 synx i meant 18:08:04 good job Manuel1234567! 18:10:11 now I know my abc's 18:10:20 next time won't you Scheme with me... 18:14:40 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 18:19:35 -!- chupish [n=951c03d5@baconfile.com] has quit [] 18:19:38 chupish [n=951c03d5@baconfile.com] has joined #scheme 18:20:46 -!- chupish [n=951c03d5@baconfile.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:22:21 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:25 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:27:28 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:33:24 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:40 -!- Manuel1234567 [i=5c4c9629@gateway/web/freenode/x-245775b25158ab55] has quit ["Page closed"] 18:40:07 synx: You forgot to wear proper footgear before making a bogus logic leap. 18:41:07 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 18:45:33 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 18:45:49 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.191.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:03 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:55:06 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-8-27.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:55:44 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:56:37 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has left #scheme 18:56:58 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-111-8-27.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:15 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:55 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 18:58:04 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 18:58:15 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:58:16 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:56 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:59:55 `Peter_ [n=pk@188-23-109-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 19:01:36 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-109-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:40 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:02:15 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-4d46f9e7bcc1a86f] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:05:46 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:29 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 19:15:58 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:42 eli: I'll be sure to put on my crosstrainers before doing so again. 19:23:15 All I know is (require rnrs/io/ports-6) causes parameterize to complain that current-input-port is not a parameter. 19:23:36 it's not required to be a parameter 19:24:08 when you set something in parameterize, it is required to be a parameter... 19:24:19 no 19:24:58 there is no procedure defined in r6rs, called current-input-port that takes an extra argument 19:25:41 parameterize cant check whether it is actually a parameter created by make-parameter 19:25:58 So... why doesn't it complain that current-input-port is not defined? 19:26:21 becuse it is defined 19:26:58 but (current-input-port newport) is not 19:26:59 I get "parameterize: expects type as 2nd argument, given: #; other arguments were: # #" 19:26:59 -!- `Peter_ [n=pk@188-23-109-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 19:27:07 So it is defined, and using r6rs makes it into "not a parameter". 19:27:21 Oh okay... so... 19:27:54 I can't use current-input-port as a parameter, because r6rs already uses it for something else. 19:28:15 `Peter [n=pk@188-23-109-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #scheme 19:28:22 Slom [n=a@pD9EB790F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:28:25 synx: regardless of what the document says, the r6rs language in PLT is *different* than the default language for various reasons. Expecting things to work like that is not healthy. 19:28:32 yes, but you could import the 'other' current-input-port as something else and use that 19:28:35 Yeah, that makes sense. 19:29:11 So how do I change the current input port? ._. 19:29:15 or simply, just not import current-input-port from r6rs 19:29:25 eli: that should work? 19:30:25 repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:30:42 leppie: Should what work? (Sorry, no time to follow to closely...) 19:30:42 why are you using r6rs anyways? open-input-string inst defined either for r6rs 19:30:47 I need the ports to be r6rs type ports, so that I can use port-has-set-port-position!? 19:31:09 *eli* sighs in synx's general direction. 19:31:14 eli: excluding current-input-port from the list of imported identifiers from r6rs/oi 19:31:20 Because I'm setting the port position, and piping the port into a tempfile if the port does not support setting the position. 19:31:52 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:53 hmm, still you are using a non r6rs string port procedure, odds are it wont work 19:31:56 leppie: That might work. It would probably be easier to require just the function though. 19:32:15 eli: not sure how imports in non-r6rs work :) 19:32:37 even simple modules confuse me, hehe 19:32:40 (if (port-supports-position port) a b) <-- only has such a function in r6rs that I know of. 19:33:03 so synx, just import that proc 19:33:40 im sure ports underlying implementation would be the same given the usage 19:34:03 btw: open-string-input-port in r6rs 19:34:16 rudybot: doc file-stream-port? 19:34:17 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 19:34:17 eli: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/port-ops.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._file-stream-port~3f)) 19:34:22 That proc doesn't work if the port itself is not r6rs 19:34:57 but synx, you are using it as if it was working 19:34:58 (port-has-set-port-position!? (open-input-string "test")) => #f 19:35:10 open-input-string is NOT defined in r6rs 19:35:32 Of course it isn't. But more importantly, how can I set the current input port in r6rs? 19:35:37 -!- Slom [n=a@pD9EB790F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 19:35:50 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-eba4121e8a802768] has joined #scheme 19:35:54 you cant, unless the implementation provides a way to do that 19:36:09 it's not defined in r6rs 19:36:19 So... maybe I'm approaching the problem wrong. 19:36:29 *eli* acts surprised 19:37:40 I need to set the port position, since vyzo's crypt signing reads the port data to calculate the signature. I need to seek back to where the data started, to read it for the content. 19:38:09 But in my test examples I verify what was signed by writing signed data to a pipe, and reading it to verify. And pipes cannot support setting port positions. 19:38:52 So I save it to a tempfile. But when I'm just using (open-input-string) instead of a pipe, I don't want to go through the trouble of saving it to a tempfile, since I can set the port's position in that case. 19:38:59 poistions in textual ports are generally inaccurate, I would not depend on it 19:39:39 well, saving the position, then restoring it is generally accurate. Assuming the 5th character is 5 bytes in is not though. 19:40:44 so are you dealing with binary or textual data? 19:42:21 I'm doing digital signing, so it could be considered binary pretty much. I don't need to decode it or anything. 19:43:44 i would just a bytevector or binary-port in that cases 19:43:55 s/s// 19:44:42 Sure I do that, but I can't figure out how to set that as the current input port. Like I open a pipe, and then...? 19:44:48 or create your own parameter 19:44:56 Oh r6rs probably doesn't support pipes heh 19:44:56 and wrap read 19:45:36 Yeah that'll probably work. 19:47:19 Huh, but it does have custom ports, so maybe I could make a pipe implementation myself... 19:47:39 you could, pretty simple to use 19:48:11 not that I have ever used them :) 19:52:24 synx: Let me get this straight: you need to read some data that is coming from a file to get some signature, and you need to read from the file -- and you're switching to the r6rs language for *that*? 19:57:12 jessica_lilly [n=jessica@89-168-132-95.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 19:57:12 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:54 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:01:53 I need some data coming from a port... my test examples were using pipes and string ports. Plus I'm curious about r6rs, so might as well try stuff in it. 20:03:27 I suppose I could just assume it's never string ports, and save anything not already a file port to a file first. 20:04:46 You need to separate your needs. If you want to try r6rs, don't try to mix. If all you need is a solution to the problem, then use `file-position' which works on both string and file ports. 20:04:59 but not on pipes 20:05:08 so I can't just use it. 20:06:10 ... and in r6rs you can do that on pipes? 20:06:24 whether or not a port supports seeking has more to do with the mechanics of the port itself. Some will never support file-position. But the only way to test for that is to try to set the position and catch the exception... 20:06:40 In r6rs you can test whether a port will support setting the position or not. 20:07:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:07:53 Right. And it didn't occur to you that doing so (catching an exception) is about a thousand times simpler than switching a language? 20:08:45 As well as asking about it on the (*gasp*) mailing list and complaining on the lack of such a predicate? 20:08:59 Not really, no. 20:09:16 And I do not have access to the mailing list. 20:10:38 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:11:51 "Not really" -- you didn't think about it, or "not really" -- it's not simpler? 20:12:09 And yes, I know about the issues you have about email. 20:12:23 *eli* sighs again, just in case it wasn't clear from the context that he does 20:12:58 It didn't occur to me, not really. 20:13:10 OK, so now you have a solution. 20:16:01 -!- xray7224 [n=jessica@unaffiliated/xray7224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:27:07 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:26 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:27:31 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:31:43 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:09 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:36:29 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:53 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:41:10 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:44:42 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 20:48:43 dudleyf_ [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:48:58 -!- dudleyf_ [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:52:34 huh, good argument for a keyring is, if you have some signed data how do you tell what key signed it? 20:52:50 need to organize your keys somehow so that some kind of identifier in the signed data can indicate which key it is. 20:54:17 I thought your typical signature included the ID of the signer. 20:58:14 What is that ID though? It's clearly not the key itself. 21:03:23 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 21:05:43 I dunno. 21:05:52 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:24 when I decrypt a signed file with gnupg, it often says "Untrusted signature from ", and offers to download his pulic key for me. 21:07:08 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:07:19 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has joined #scheme 21:08:59 Right, because GnuPG has a keyring. 21:09:54 It has an association between arbitrary integer IDs and actual keys, called a keyring, and that way you can take the integer ID and find any key related to it. possibly download it. 21:10:00 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:13:03 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-139.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 21:20:30 but 21:20:44 the whole reason I see this message is because the key in question _isn't_ in my keyring. 21:21:57 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 21:22:34 Well you can't verify any signatures without a keyring is what I'm saying. 21:28:42 oh. 21:28:46 well, sure. 21:29:03 if you define "keyring" as "one or more public keys", sure. 21:31:31 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:32:51 one or more public keys indexed by some sort of identifier, like the integer that GnuPG uses. 21:33:16 It's probably just a checksum or something. 21:35:18 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:37:40 I assume that, GnuPG being Free Software and all, you can read about the format 21:40:55 be surprised how hard that info is to find. They only keep the command line interface standardized. 21:41:35 It's also real complicated, with a lot of different behaviors in different situations. 21:41:58 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880 21:54:30 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 21:59:04 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:06 That, I believe 22:03:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:14 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 22:07:08 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:15:25 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:14 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:57 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has quit [] 22:22:21 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 22:23:59 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:58 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 22:25:25 The GnuPG's keyring is, if I recall correctly, just a collection of OpenPGP packets, whose format is documented in the RFC. 22:29:03 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.68.56] has joined #scheme 22:32:06 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:23 hkBst: scheme-complete doesn't affect indentation 22:47:19 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-218-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 23:06:54 -!- jessica_lilly [n=jessica@89-168-132-95.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:14 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:14 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:15:16 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-1529.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 23:21:07 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:22:14 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:23:31 -!- `Peter [n=pk@188-23-109-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [] 23:25:18 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 23:33:50 TR2N [i=email@89.180.211.108] has joined #scheme 23:37:53 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:38:35 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:55 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:13 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:48:59 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 23:52:34 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-235.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:59:32 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme