00:00:41 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.227.106] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:10 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:12:46 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:39 TR2N [i=email@89.180.164.181] has joined #scheme 00:15:24 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.164.181] has joined #scheme 00:15:58 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.164.181] has left #scheme 00:17:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 00:18:11 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 00:19:59 -!- jedc [n=jed@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@66.213.192.210] has joined #scheme 00:38:03 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 00:38:28 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 00:44:37 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-2787.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 00:50:55 sladegen, well, how many well-known MUD/MUSH servers are there *at all*, for starters..? 00:51:28 I can name precisely MUD/MUSH servers, neither of which is well-known, but both of which are written in Scheme. 00:51:36 ...um, precisely *two*. 00:51:50 (Where did that `two' escape off two?) 00:51:55 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:02 (Oh, I see: it got into my parenthesis there. Crafty bugger.) 00:52:42 They're sneaky that way. 00:54:41 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:11 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:26 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.180.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:28:46 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-6d1df738631a734e] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:33:07 peter_12 [n=peter_12@200.56.250.193] has joined #scheme 01:33:42 where did the original Scheme definition appear? In a Computer Science or Engineering journal? 01:37:16 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 01:41:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-72.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:42:38 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@200.56.250.193] has joined #scheme 01:43:03 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@200.56.250.193] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:47:10 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-137-208.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:06 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@200.56.250.193] has quit [Client Quit] 01:51:03 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:33 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:01:46 -!- underspecified [n=eric@220.43.52.7] has quit [] 02:19:30 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:31 Riastradh: name them, please ^_^ 02:26:10 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 02:26:19 I know the MUCK servers use a vaguely lisp-like language for certain scripting. 02:26:52 freenose [n=freenose@204.97.199.7] has joined #scheme 02:28:18 I also know that anyone trying to use MUSHcode for anything useful will be left wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth. 02:30:30 -!- etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:31:04 etoxam [n=||||||||@84.79.67.254] has joined #scheme 02:31:35 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:22 To give an example: "&FUN.CAN-NOTIFY-BB %vb=cand(member(llocks(%vd),USER:BB-NOTIFY-[ufun(fun.bbname-to-num,%1)]),elock(%vd/BB-NOTIFY-[ufun(fun.bbname-to-num,%1)],%0))" 02:32:39 That checks if players should be notified of new posts or not. 02:35:06 -!- freenose [n=freenose@204.97.199.7] has left #scheme 02:40:10 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:44:36 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:34 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-145-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:09 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176208093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:01:07 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-224-193.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:03:00 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-2787.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:13 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:37 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:58 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176221207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:23:47 chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has joined #scheme 03:37:57 synx: Daemmerung and i were working on a scheme-based mud awhile back 03:38:08 actually got to a movable @, iirc 03:38:12 withered on the vine, though 03:38:32 incubot: speaking of which, where is Daemmerung these days? 03:38:34 Neat klutometis! 03:38:35 I was speaking in jest, by the way, foof; if you'd really like a fuller list of suggestions, though, I'd be happy to prepare one. 03:39:09 I'd think the hardest part would be the reader for the MU* 03:39:24 right 03:39:28 Figuring out that "I don't want to go through the left door mommy" means go right might be tricky... 03:41:10 But really humans could learn a simple language a MU* could understand. Long as it wasn't limited to single word commands. 03:42:09 With MUCKs it's "command argument ..." very simple, yet flexible. 03:43:37 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:45:27 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:45:41 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 03:56:04 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:35 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:01:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 04:01:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:17 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:06:19 give bagel to cabdriver 04:09:20 offby1: when's the last time you saw Daemmerung? 04:11:12 Well, I can't answer that, but my friend here can 04:11:18 rudybot: seen Daemmerung 04:11:18 *offby1: Daemmerung was seen in/on #scheme one day, eight hours ago, saying "Rolled back to svn 1.6.2, no joy. Oh, well. I don't need to be fussing with this today anyway.", and then Daemmerung was seen quitting in/on 1133sae.mazama.net one day, six hours ago, saying ""Smoove out."" 04:11:29 QED 04:12:11 -!- segoe [i=3e164621@gateway/web/freenode/x-b371d5311fe3e34f] has quit ["Page closed"] 04:13:30 before that was a month ago 04:20:12 hmm 04:35:29 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:42 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:53:52 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:55:49 huh, yome has been poking at termite not too long ago. 05:07:25 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:26:01 -!- jao [n=jao@76.Red-88-18-100.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:54 Oh, really? That's interesting. 05:36:10 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 05:50:47 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:56:00 -!- Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:03:58 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has left #scheme 06:04:16 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-652f8f94d0dd7e09] has joined #scheme 06:09:51 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:20:02 a-s [n=user@92.81.46.25] has joined #scheme 06:31:17 any1 tried lambdabeans? 06:38:04 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 06:42:10 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:51 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 06:46:22 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:51:58 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:57:35 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:58:04 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 07:00:35 ASau [n=user@host105-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:07:30 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 07:12:39 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:15:24 ice_man` [n=user@99.233.154.214] has joined #scheme 07:16:09 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-220.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:22:12 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 07:24:13 -!- QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:26:15 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:26:51 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:30:56 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:31:08 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:35:06 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 07:44:50 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 07:44:57 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-220.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:52:30 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:54:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 07:54:49 -!- ice_man` [n=user@99.233.154.214] has left #scheme 08:08:13 underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:28:53 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 08:36:04 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 08:37:43 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:38:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:44:39 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:46:50 -!- underspecified [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [] 08:50:39 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:59:36 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 09:08:30 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:48 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:12:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:29:55 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:43:55 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:50:41 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 09:50:59 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has left #scheme 10:01:06 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 10:01:11 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:25 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 10:01:58 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-5-148.vodafone.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:17 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:19:31 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:21:17 Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@78-1-166-121.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 10:24:09 dzhus [n=sphinx@93.80.246.104] has joined #scheme 10:26:15 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 10:36:36 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:27:11 BW^- [n=Miranda@host202-191-static.39-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 11:27:21 did you see any Scheme client for the AMQP protocol, or any other message broker protocol / server ? 11:37:20 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:40:56 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@host202-191-static.39-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has left #scheme 11:47:20 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:06:13 mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:11:42 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 12:17:47 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:26:07 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:26:52 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:28:11 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@88-149-231-31.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #scheme 12:30:43 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-4309.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 12:32:18 -!- m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:02 synx: Museme, SchMUSE 12:53:47 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@88-149-231-31.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [] 13:00:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:08:20 wingo [n=wingo@8.Red-81-39-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:30 m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 13:32:01 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:51 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:38:16 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 13:39:34 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93.80.246.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:39:39 wingo_ [n=wingo@175.Red-81-38-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:45:07 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:48:55 -!- wingo [n=wingo@8.Red-81-39-159.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:06 camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has joined #scheme 13:59:27 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:02:56 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:06:03 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:17:08 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-171-173.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:23 synthase [n=synthase@68.220.171.173] has joined #scheme 14:19:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:27:32 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=recursion 14:37:53 recursion - df. look up recursion 14:39:13 in order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion. 14:44:00 higepon739 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:46:48 higepon611 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:46:59 -!- higepon611 [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:47:03 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:47:14 -!- higepon739 is now known as higepon 14:47:21 -!- higepon [n=taro@FL1-125-197-200-195.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:45 -!- ASau [n=user@host105-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 14:58:56 anybody having an R6RS port of MIT Scheme's weight-balanced trees? 14:59:03 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-246-104.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 14:59:19 let me guess! 14:59:21 no :( 15:01:17 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 15:02:22 -!- weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:08:00 weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 15:08:24 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:34 -!- camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- g0ju [n=moo@spalila.hrz.fh-zwickau.de] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:08:34 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cave69.methlab.biz] has quit [simmons.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:09:41 g0ju [n=moo@141.32.40.71] has joined #scheme 15:09:52 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:03 mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.219] has joined #scheme 15:10:56 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cave69.methlab.biz] has joined #scheme 15:13:28 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:13:33 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:36 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 15:21:53 leppie: no, I just have a plt port of rb trees which are, in fact balanced 15:21:59 camt [n=camt@mail.propack.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:22:02 and buggy -.- 15:23:02 i want clojure's maps 15:24:01 maps = hashtables? 15:25:03 i can't remember all of the details, but it looked like it underlied a number of data structures 15:25:17 ahh 15:25:26 but yes, hash tables were one of them 15:25:40 i recall something about AbtractMap from Java 15:26:13 you should read some clojure papers -- i was really impressed at what he has 15:26:18 imagine performant functional hash tables, functional sets, etc 15:26:22 you could probably realize anything from a tree to a hashtable with such an interface 15:27:14 *wingo_* just fixed guile's closures to capture variables in a vector, instead of using a ribcage-like thing 15:27:15 yay 15:27:40 why not use records? 15:28:01 not sure i understand. how would i use records? 15:28:49 maybe I understand wrong :p do you mean using vector to store free varaibles? 15:29:30 like (lambda (a) (lambda () a)) 15:29:40 the inner closure captures `a' in a vector of length 1 15:29:59 why not have a record with an a field? 15:29:59 the length of the vector depends on the number of variables captured 15:30:15 a closure is a record with fields -- a pointer to the code and the data 15:30:23 data being the captured vector 15:30:34 unless you are using vectors to implement records :p 15:30:58 i think i am misunderstood :) i implemented something from a 20-year-old paper, is all ;) 15:31:08 see dybvig's stack model in his phd thesis 15:31:14 ahhh 15:31:28 i think what I will be doing for my new compiler is similar 15:32:06 but native record field access is faster than native vector access 15:32:14 in my case 15:32:47 currently I am using some generic tuple thingy, which is ok, but very python centric 15:34:03 how do you handle nested environments with vectors? 15:34:33 or is it like a vector of vectors? 15:34:34 see dybvig's paper :) 15:34:39 no it is a flat vector 15:34:56 Typically you flatten it out. The vector contains either the value or a box for each closed-over variable. 15:35:22 isnt that expensive? 15:35:39 You can put the value directly in the vector if it's never assigned; otherwise a box is necessary, and will be shared by multiple closures even when those closures come from different environments. 15:36:15 Not at all; there is no other representation of the lexical environment, and the boxes are typicall less expensive than the frames used in the "ribcage" representation, since non-captured variables don't get boxed. 15:36:24 it has different performance characteristics 15:36:30 some things are faster, some slower 15:36:37 ok 15:36:40 but on the balance it seems better 15:36:50 non-closure procedure calls are faster 15:37:02 *rotty* got wttree.scm ported 15:37:09 *leppie* makes mental note to actually try reading that paper instead of just scanning for info :p 15:37:39 that's that 3 models for scheme paper? 15:38:00 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:38:39 yes 15:38:53 the second model is the meat, imo 15:39:06 i went through that quite a long time ago 15:41:44 i think i did too but didn't get anything out of it 15:41:47 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 15:41:56 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 15:42:04 but the trick on how to capture vars in a vector is useful, and i haven't seen it explained elsewhere 15:43:32 ok, just scanned thru it again, it is quite similar to what I got now 15:43:46 and what I will be basing future improvements on :p 15:44:37 :) 15:45:13 only two more prereleases before guile 2.0 gets released.. time passes, eh. 15:45:14 obvisouly the best thing is to try eliminate most useless closures in tyhis model 15:45:36 -!- Def is now known as Deformati 15:45:52 wingo_: I'm curious to see an example of where the ribcage representation is better than the flat representation in guile. Do you have one? 15:46:33 chandler: (let ((a 10)) (lambda () (lambda () a))) 15:47:07 the intermediate thunk wouldn't have to propagate vars in that model 15:47:17 obviously for more lexicals captured it's more serious 15:47:30 This is compile time performance you're referring to? 15:47:33 no, runtime 15:47:38 At runtime, this should be substantially better than the ribcage version. 15:47:59 at runtime, the intermediate thunk does one cons 15:48:10 whereas in the flat model it makes a vector with N elements 15:48:47 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-246-104.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:50 In the flat model, it should be a vector with one element, whose value is obtained from the stack. 15:48:58 well 15:49:09 mmmm, I have a model in mind that is somewhere between those 2 15:49:20 how about (let ((a 10) (b ...) ...) (lambda () (lambda () (list a b ...))) 15:49:27 N is the number of lexical vars captured 15:49:35 like semi flat, just 1 extra level on indirection, and cheap creation 15:50:04 wingo_: That's not changing anything. 15:50:11 it does, chandler. 15:50:32 in the ribcage model the intermediate thunk still conses only one cell 15:50:41 regardless of the number of lexical variables captured. 15:51:09 in the flat model you need a vector of N elements for each thunk (2 in this case) 15:52:55 Right. The space requirement is higher in this case (though this particular degenerate case can be optimized even in the flat model), but the runtime cost is the same if the inner thunk is ever called - because each variable reference must walk through an extra level of indirection. 15:53:02 isnt that expensive? 15:53:33 meaning the flat model 15:53:58 space is time, of course... 15:54:28 variable access is faster in the flat model, yes. 15:54:31 no, I mean the cost of having to copy N elements instead of just 1 15:54:37 but closure creation is potentially more expensive. 15:55:05 so which one is more important? :p 15:55:06 Of course - you can't get any faster at that than the nested representation. 15:55:13 leppie: the benefit is that you don't actually have to copy all elements -- and often you don't have to heap-allocate the vars in the first place. 15:55:26 But as a practical matter, memcpy() is fast, and many closures are called more than once. 15:55:42 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-145-107.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:43 it's not the memcpy that's expensive, it's the garbage 15:55:48 ok 15:55:54 It is possible to share environment vectors in the flat model as well, as it is in your example. 15:55:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:28 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 15:57:28 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:10 the model I have in mind, is like a ribcage, but it contains a reference to every single environment too, so every variable can be accessed in 1 extra step (compared to flat model), so creation is just copying N nested environments 15:59:10 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.33] has joined #scheme 15:59:20 any ideas if that would work well? 15:59:46 In the worst case, that's a flat model with a lot of extra work. 16:00:16 meaning? :) 16:00:46 do you heap-allocate local variables? 16:01:09 not locals, just reachable free ones 16:01:20 ((lambda (x) ((lambda (x1) ((lambda (x2) ((lambda (x3) (lambda ()))))))))) 16:01:35 Assuming there are N wrappers around that inner thunk, and the thunk actually has a body which uses them... 16:01:45 You're going to wind up allocating a flat frame for each of the surrounding environments. 16:02:00 Er, a flat frame holding a pointer to each of the surrounding environments. 16:03:05 true 16:03:17 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:41 but even a flat model would have a 'bad' cost there 16:05:25 would it? assume one cell for a vector, and half a cell for each element. that would be 2+2+3+3 cells of storage. would you be able to do better? 16:05:42 It's not much when compared to the cost of variable use in the flat model. Unless some special optimization is done, it's O(n^2). 16:06:09 er 16:06:24 As it takes N steps to reach the outermost variable, then N-1 to reach the next outermost, etc. 16:06:26 assuming all those vars are referenced in the inner thunk 16:06:32 Right. I forgot to add that :-) 16:07:42 Of course, the other storage cost which must be discussed is the cost of retaining values which are not referenced in the nested model. 16:09:10 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:12:14 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 16:14:19 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:19:21 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:00 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 16:21:00 dblick [n=blick@c-24-18-234-107.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:22:33 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:22:57 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:29 sladegen pasted "lawl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/84073 16:27:43 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 16:28:19 *Elly* giggles 16:28:22 google 'recursion' :) 16:33:06 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 16:37:55 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:17 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@84.239.243.120] has joined #scheme 16:40:31 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:43:21 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:48:04 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:49:51 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:20 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:52:09 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:23 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:12 ponzao___ [n=vesam@84.239.243.120] has joined #scheme 17:03:08 HG` [n=wells@xdslex082.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:05:16 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:45 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@84.239.243.120] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:50 I have sort of a dumb question... Can someone clarify for me why meta-circular evaluation matters? If the story is, "I have this function, and it can evaluate every expression in the language", why does it matter at all whether that function is expressible in the language? 17:08:18 dblick: it doesn't matter 17:09:19 It matters for the sake of understanding the language. It is a useful tool for pedagogy and for precisely expressing the language's interpretation. 17:10:14 s/precisely/formally/ 17:11:20 soupdragon, Riastradh; i see, thanks. i wanted to understand in case it turned out to be really neat for some reason. 17:11:56 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@84.239.243.120] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:02 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 17:14:01 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 17:14:59 dblick: in fact it is. One of the meanings is that the code can be easily treated as data. 17:17:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:19:49 mario-goulart, hmm. okay. i guess i see that. 17:20:37 thanks 17:21:19 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 17:23:50 dblick: one little example: if you treat the following piece of code as data (i.e., a list) 17:23:57 (define a 1) 17:24:22 You know that the car of this list is `define', so you know that this is a definition. 17:26:48 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:30:57 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 17:32:45 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:37 xray7224 [n=jessica@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 17:38:18 -!- weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:21 weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 17:41:32 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:42:41 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 17:45:57 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:01 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 17:51:44 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:52:36 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:39 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:26 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1173360/why-doesnt-clojure-execute-this-function-at-all <-- look at the response ;p 17:55:27 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/mtfupc 17:55:48 the first one 17:58:32 I find the second one funny too, at the expense of clojure 17:58:38 heh 17:59:48 You wonder why people respond to posts about languages they don't know 17:59:52 that just looks weird :p 18:00:34 "That is a list and not a single atom." 18:00:38 WTF does he mean? 18:01:17 maybe you delimited strings as '( ... )' in clojure :p 18:01:48 heck anything can be possible 18:02:01 If so, I still don't understand that comment 18:02:30 i think he meant '(hello world) is a list, and not an atom 18:02:43 yeah, but why would he say that? 18:03:01 Nobody said anything about atoms 18:03:02 madness 18:03:08 give us disclojure! 18:03:12 ! 18:03:56 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 18:04:01 i must say the quality of scheme answers are generally good on that site 18:05:00 if you pay me i can lower that for you ;-o 18:05:10 :) 18:05:19 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-17051a350aa84ac2] has joined #scheme 18:12:42 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:13:19 -!- q[mrw] [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:50 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 18:15:30 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:51 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:16:59 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 18:18:30 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslex082.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:13 -!- Keyframe2 [n=Keyframe@78-1-166-121.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D"] 18:25:58 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:26:42 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 18:28:26 Def [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:34:04 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:34:12 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:35:04 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 18:35:25 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:15 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:33 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:05 adeodatus [n=RF@92.85.220.208] has joined #scheme 18:45:17 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 18:45:36 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 18:47:26 It's possible to install scheme on slackware? 18:48:47 no; computers are not that advanced yet :) 18:49:35 adeodatus: sure 18:50:11 How to do that!! 18:50:59 adeodatus: first you have to chose a scheme implementation. 18:51:04 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 18:51:13 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:51:18 adeodatus: do you know what scheme implementation you want to install? 18:51:29 no 18:52:18 adeodatus: so you'd better start reading http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations 18:52:47 Thanks 18:52:56 ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 18:52:59 adeodatus: you're welcome 18:53:44 Deformative [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:54:04 i got bug reports recently from a user that uess hobbit 18:54:07 *uses 18:54:21 i was not aware that anyone actually used it these days 18:55:52 Which scheme implementation is your choice? 18:56:02 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:56:17 *gnomon* is going to guess that wingo_ uses Guile 18:56:22 But that's just a random guess, of course. 18:56:38 i do use guile, yes 18:56:45 Well, gosh! 18:56:48 Fancy that. 18:56:55 there are many schemes out there though, adeodatus :) 18:57:12 many people starting with scheme like plt. 18:57:19 gnomon: :) 18:57:49 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:58:06 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:58:49 -!- adeodatus [n=RF@92.85.220.208] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:18 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 18:59:56 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:17 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-652f8f94d0dd7e09] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:03:25 Deformati [n=joe@c-68-84-167-117.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:06:47 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 19:08:41 -!- Def [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:16 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:09:18 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:09:39 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:41 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 19:09:44 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:50 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:07 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 19:11:12 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:58 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 19:14:55 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:15:02 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:28 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:18:22 -!- weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:23 -!- ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:34 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 19:19:17 gnomon_: I don't think wingo uses gosh. (That's the name of the gauche interpreter, if you weren't aware.) 19:19:34 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-71-238-44-239.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:52 weinholt [i=weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 19:24:01 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 19:25:08 -!- xray7224 [n=jessica@unaffiliated/xray7224] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:27:00 xray7224 [n=jessica@unaffiliated/xray7224] has joined #scheme 19:27:24 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:30:17 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:14 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:26 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 19:32:22 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 19:34:49 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 19:39:56 ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 19:41:44 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:24 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:46:20 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:28 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 19:51:51 -!- ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:00 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 20:08:50 -!- ponzao__3 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:08:56 -!- mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:31 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:39 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 20:18:57 incubot: i finally let my cats outside, and the tortie has a fucking cloaking device; i doubt i'll ever retrieve them from amongst the ferns 20:19:00 Frond. Aren't ferns fronds? Or have fronds? Seventh-grade bio washes over me. 20:19:07 -!- ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:44 -!- wingo_ is now known as wingo 20:24:02 o/~ what's he building in there o/~ 20:25:46 ponzao___: Are you having trouble with your IRC client? 20:26:46 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:58 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:26:58 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:29:27 ponzao__1 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 20:40:00 ponzao__2 [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 20:41:22 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 20:49:33 -!- ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:51:25 ponzao___ [n=vesam@a243-120.24online.fi] has joined #scheme 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