00:01:53 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-104-249.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["Yow! Legally-imposed CULTURE-reduction is CABBAGE-BRAINED!"] 00:01:53 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:14 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:49 -!- clarity_ [n=clarity@c-76-103-139-40.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:05:59 http://www.eopl3.com/code.html -> EOPL code is non-free 00:06:15 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:23 dsmith__ [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:15:53 -!- dsmith_ [n=dsmith@66.178.229.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:46 It looks like a free license to me. 00:20:22 The code may not be used for commercial purposes; hence it is non-free. 00:22:55 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 00:27:09 -!- dsmith__ is now known as dsmith 00:29:48 May it be used for criminal purposes? 00:33:46 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-228-230.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 00:34:08 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.228.230] has joined #scheme 00:35:31 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:35:33 Foo. 00:39:49 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.228.230] has left #scheme 00:43:53 arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.114.231] has joined #scheme 00:43:57 hi there! 00:49:43 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:28 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:25 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:54:19 foof: Doesn't seem like it is restricted in the creative commmons licence so yes? 01:00:19 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:08:57 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09:49 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:10:11 Hah, that was a trick question, commercial == criminal! 01:10:16 *foof* defects to red china 01:12:17 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.191.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:15 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:19 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has joined #scheme 01:22:22 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:31:09 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:32:31 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-4.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:34:16 -!- foof [n=user@163.221.157.46] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:35:17 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-255-131-63.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 01:37:53 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:38:28 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 01:41:43 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.114.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:47:08 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-27-224.netcologne.de] has quit [No route to host] 01:52:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:05 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 01:58:19 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:34 Riastradh: It depends on how you define free. 02:02:18 Most code may not be used for purposes of spying on domestic citizens. I wouldn't say that makes the code non-free. 02:05:19 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:39 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@129.170.241.32] has quit [Client Quit] 02:07:37 synx: eh? 02:08:09 synx: that's an entirely spurious claim; that has to do with what the law says the code can be used for, rather than what the license the author attached to the code says the code can be used for 02:08:38 free to my knowledge means anyone can use it, but not necessarily for any purpose. 02:08:57 as opposed to non-free, which uses legal and technological measures to ensure only an elite few can "use" it. 02:09:31 It's who it's available to, not what they can do for it. The code is free, the coders not so much. 02:10:34 I disagree with your interpretation 02:10:56 e.g., there is a law stating "It is illegal to murder other human beings", but not a law stating "Guns may not be used to murder other human beings" 02:10:57 Okay. 02:11:07 the latter is a kind of inside-out interpretation, in my view 02:11:44 There are laws saying you may not renege on certain contracts, like license agreements for instance. 02:12:53 sure... 02:13:04 -!- wingo [n=wingo@205.Red-83-32-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:13:05 but each individual license agreement does not need to say that 02:13:07 For instance if I took something GPL and closed the source, selling a variation for commercial purposes, the consequence of that is they could take legal action against me for violation of contract. Similarly, domestic spying is also illegal. 02:13:36 correct; the GPL carries that license term around with it. There is no part of the US code that says "If you are GPL, you must make the source available and so on" 02:13:42 It's just domestic spying is a more attractive "hot button" issue, so people don't think it strange when you can't violate that law, but they do think it strange when you can't violate the GPL. 02:13:55 whereas the domestic-spying clause is not carried around by the noncommercial license agreement 02:14:55 The contractual license agreement stuff is not carried around by the license agreement either. I could write a license saying "You have to hop on one foot while coding" and if there aren't police to enforce that, what's going to keep you from just ignoring that license? 02:15:33 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 02:16:36 that is a different matter altogether 02:17:21 my point is that the license carries around a "You may not use this for commercial purposes", which makes the *license* unfree, whereas the country has a "the government may not spy on private citizens" clause, which (arguably) makes members of the government (who may be users of said code) unfree 02:17:33 but only in the first instance is the code itself accurately described as unfree 02:17:46 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:19:46 I don't think it matters so much what the license tells you to do, as opposed to whether you're obliged to honor it by the government. 02:20:21 And I still claim the code is free, even if the license claims that it may only be used in certain ways. 02:20:39 under that definition, 'free' is vacuous, because all code is free 02:20:57 Microsoft's source code is under a license saying "Only we may use this and anyone else seeing it is subject to fines or imprisonment" 02:22:42 Microsoft's source code is kept secret and private under many lockboxes and legal limitations. Only a select few are allowed to even see it, and even they are allowed only to see certain parts, so that any leaks can be immediately detected. 02:23:07 so is it free or not? if not, why not? 02:23:12 I consider that pretty well imprisoned to me. 02:23:27 how about their Shared Source program? 02:23:38 they give you their source code to study, but you may not compile, modify, or release it 02:23:41 is that free code? 02:24:07 synx, `free software' is a precise term. Part of its definition is permission to use the software for any purpose, even for domestic spying. 02:24:25 See . 02:24:59 If you use a different definition, you will undoubtedly confuse whomever you are talking with. 02:25:37 I'll try to stick with that definition. Elly is claiming that since the license forbids closing the source, it is non-free. 02:25:54 I did, because I disagree with the FSF on this point :P 02:26:07 well rotty is claiming, but he's not here <.< 02:26:40 Licences cannot prohibit you from reading the source code. What they can do is prohibit you from *distributing* the code, or derivative works thereof, under certain conditions. 02:26:53 To gain certain freedoms, you must take certain other less attractive freedoms away. 02:27:07 Like I gain the freedom to walk across the street, because the cars lose their freedom to run red lights. 02:27:21 *Elly* uses the BSD license for everything for philosophical reasons 02:28:11 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:23 Furthermore, by the way, in the US, the Jacobsen case established that free software licences on source code are enforceable through copyright law, not contract law, between which there are numerous important differences. 02:28:27 Only license I ever managed to use is the WTFPL :p 02:28:50 Oh, I hadn't heard that Riastradh. That's rather...nonsensical. 02:29:05 I used to release code into the public domain, but somebody convinced me not to do that, and I can no longer remember why 02:30:26 Elly: Have you checked out the WTFPL? :) http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/ 02:30:33 Nonsensical? No, synx, it is very good for the creators of free software. It enables them to request preliminary injunctions, even though there may not be any direct monetary damages to them as a consequence of the infringement, and if they win lawsuits against infringers, the infringers are required to pay for attorney's fees. 02:30:33 It explains why not to release code into the public domain. 02:31:42 Riastradh: Good for them, but legally it seems more like you're retaining your full copyright, but making a contract for distribution of the code under that copyright. I guess whatever works. Just seems strange to me. I'd call it a contract issue. 02:32:18 synx: ah, so it does 02:32:27 Like how the Creative Commons people will "buy" your copyright in exchange for a contract agreeing to a less restrictive limitation on copying stuff. 02:32:29 The US Federal Circuit Court of Appeals did not call it a contract issue, synx, when it ruled last year. 02:32:57 (The opinion is at .) 02:32:58 Well that's rather silly. But we never said law was particularly rational. 02:34:22 If the courts had decided that it was a matter for contract law, then creators of free software would have pretty much no leverage with the legal system over infringers of their copyright. 02:34:59 *Elly* wonders if contracts will ever be written in lisp 02:36:00 No leverage Riastradh? So it's not horribly illegal to retroactively renege on mutually agreed contracts? 02:36:24 I hope that it's clear that the US legal system considers free software licences *not* to be contracts -- or, to be precise, that failure to follow the terms of the licence do not constitute breach of contract; instead it constitutes copyright infringement. 02:36:32 Or is it just that the definition of "contract" in USA law is sucky and unuseful 02:36:49 I'd think breach of contract would be worse than copyright infringement. 02:37:26 Here's a rather important passage from the court's opinion: `The District Court found that Jacobsen had a cause of action only for breach of contract, rather than an action for copyright infringement based on a breach of the conditions of the Artistic License. Because a breach of contract creates no presumption of irreparable harm, the District Court denied the motion for a preliminary injunction.' 02:37:36 (Rather, from the background of the court's opinion.) 02:38:18 So a breach of contract isn't considered irreparable harm. That's also rather silly. 02:38:30 Sounds to me like a case of two very silly laws canceling each other out. 02:38:40 Are you interested in having a serious discussion, synx? 02:38:45 If not, you are welcome to go somewhere else. 02:40:10 I think the over-complication of laws has destroyed the rule of law itself, so having a serious discussion about the fundamentally absurd is kind of impossible. 02:40:33 Well, please design a better legal system, then. Let me know when you're done and it works great. 02:40:58 haha ok I'll get back to you on that 02:42:06 *Elly* contemplates the aesthetics of the future 02:44:48 good first step would be to immediately defrock any congressman who votes "yes" on a 1500 page bill they didn't even read 02:45:24 are congressmen frocked? 02:45:28 I thought that was just clergy 02:45:39 But until you do that, please don't spout nonsense about licences and copyright and the legal system, even with an `IANAL' disclaimer. 02:45:52 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:47:10 I didn't spout nonsense. I still think GPL code is free. 02:47:45 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:53:09 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176212112.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:09:02 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176197010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:20 dean [n=a@adsl-75-0-254-13.dsl.crchtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:40 what 03:12:10 -!- dean [n=a@adsl-75-0-254-13.dsl.crchtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:26 that was cool 03:17:40 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:17:41 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:37:15 ? 04:07:41 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:02 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:33 -!- Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25:50 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 04:30:06 apotheon [n=ren@c-24-8-180-234.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:56 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:43:35 Is there some typical/common function for clearing clutter off a REPL display, akin to the "clear" command for csh or bash? 04:45:08 I do not think so 04:46:09 Bummer. 04:46:36 I'd like to figure out how to get rid of clutter in Ypsilon's REPL without having to kill and restart it. 04:55:02 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:57:46 Try hitting ^L? 04:58:18 That just gave me "^L" on the screen. 04:59:18 The first things I tried were (clear), clear, and ^L, followed by reading the manpage, followed by a Web search, followed by checking out the manpages for Scheme48 and MIT-Scheme. 04:59:59 . . . or, rather, *trying* to check out the manpage for MIT-Scheme, since there doesn't appear to be one. 05:01:32 ctrl+L I mean 05:01:43 It means to clear the screen for some terminals... 05:02:51 synx: Yes, I figured that was what you meant. Ctrl-L just prints ^L on the screen, though. 05:03:31 ah, can't help then. 05:03:35 Thanks anyway. 05:09:20 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:31 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:19 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:38 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:45 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.33] has joined #scheme 05:52:32 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-67-247-15-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:01:12 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-67-247-15-220.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 06:05:04 -!- Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:46 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:06 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 06:31:52 -!- mariorz [n=ffffg@li10-58.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:35:36 mariorz [n=ffffg@li10-58.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 06:35:55 -!- poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:56 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:32 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 06:37:39 poucet [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 06:41:57 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.33] has quit [] 06:50:27 glogic1 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 07:07:10 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:12:21 -!- glogic1 [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:48 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 07:27:59 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 07:35:58 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 07:36:25 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:02 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:02:45 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:28 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:15:10 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-215-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:19:55 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 08:32:03 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:34:51 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 08:34:59 Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 08:37:49 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:42:04 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 08:43:30 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-215-214.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:54 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 08:57:34 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:40 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 09:19:27 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 09:49:57 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.40.211] has joined #scheme 10:01:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:09:59 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:15:14 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:18:02 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 10:46:50 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:20 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 11:09:27 lisppaste: url? 11:09:28 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 11:10:38 rotty pasted "nested syntax-rules" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83811 11:10:39 -!- Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:10:54 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-4.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 11:11:54 I get errors about "extra ellipsis" or similiar -- I guess I have to put the nestes syntax-rules into a seperate macro, or is there a way around that? 11:12:33 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055503.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:17:45 i dont understand the macro, it looks all wrong :) but you would have to 'escape' the 2nd one I think, with (... ...) 11:20:40 leppie: it's just a boilded down example, and as such doesn't make sense 11:21:00 s/boilded/boiled/ 11:27:35 well, I just pulled the nested macro out, problem solved 11:33:43 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 11:33:58 rotty: variant-clause is not a pattern variable of the defining macro that is followed by ellipsis. To produce ellipses in a template (instead of having it interpreted as repeated patterns) you have to ``quote'' it like leppie explained 11:44:44 wingo [n=wingo@83.32.66.205] has joined #scheme 11:47:23 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.144.5] has joined #scheme 11:52:29 ravenex [n=raven@87.252.243.81] has joined #scheme 11:54:20 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:53 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 12:02:25 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:03:45 -!- TR2N [i=email@89.180.149.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:34 leppie, hkBst: thanks, but I like the non-nested version better anyway 12:08:12 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:08:51 (macro-defining macros are fun :-) ) 12:17:38 rmns [n=ramunas@85-255-53-21.ip.kis.lt] has joined #scheme 12:18:18 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 12:18:38 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:22:03 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:22:20 aircastle [n=aircastl@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:53:35 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-6500.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 12:54:46 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:57 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 13:10:19 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:26 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:46:58 sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:53:24 does anyone have a clue which implemenations have FAST syntax-rules? 13:59:13 Freely Available Syntax Transformations? 14:01:19 wingo: syntax-rules implementations vary greatly in speed 14:02:22 hkBst: Is that really a big deal? You only pay the cost once, at compile time 14:02:27 some maccros tthat I wrote are killing gammbit+psyyntax righht now, evenb though PLT did iitt in undeer 2 mminuutes. <-- see howw much it lags? 14:02:51 Holy crap, that's some nasty macros! 14:02:56 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 14:04:46 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-31-4.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:04:58 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-54-62.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:04 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:12 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 14:05:13 hkBst: If it took that much time, use the macro stepper to see how it expands -- maybe that will convince you to switch to `syntax-case'. 14:06:00 eli: Are there techniques that allow a macro to take shortcuts in syntax-case or something? 14:06:08 jao [n=jao@83.50.68.187] has joined #scheme 14:07:25 eli: tthe wole idea of this exercise was tto seee how far I could push syntax-rules macros 14:08:07 So it's not real-world code? 14:08:19 sjamaan: `syntax-rules' is often used as a kind of a state machine, in a way that makes the macro very inefficient. 14:08:28 ah, right 14:08:58 hkBst: Yes, this sounds exactly like the kind of `syntax-rules' abuse that I'm talking about. 14:09:50 hkBst: Did you try this in Chicken yet, by the way? 14:09:55 I'm curious how it would perform 14:10:44 It really doesn't matter much -- which is exactly why implementations have very different speeds. 14:11:06 In all cases these macros are horribly slow. 14:12:21 Perhaps, but the huge difference between PLT and Gambit could be the difference between an acceptable and an unacceptable compilation time 14:12:35 (in case of slightly simpler macros) 14:13:02 It's worth investigating 14:15:15 Meh. 14:15:24 haha 14:15:25 For some extremely low value of "worth". 14:15:41 Here's an example of a relatively simple `syntax-rules' macro: 14:15:53 rudybot: eval (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () [(foo () "x" x ...) (list x ...)] [(foo (y ys ...) "x" x ...) (foo (ys ...) "x" y x ...)] [(foo x ...) (foo (x ...) "x")])) 14:15:58 As you pointed out, there's quite a lot of code out there that uses syntax-rules in such a way 14:16:04 rudybot: eval (foo 1 2 3) 14:16:04 eli: ; Value: (3 2 1) 14:16:38 It's a very common use of `syntax-rules' -- put a marker, then recursively do the transformation -- right? 14:16:42 aye 14:17:06 With syntax-case you could just call reverse! 14:17:22 (as you could with other types of macro systems) 14:17:54 Expanding it in PLT gives me an expression that is 2.5k long without indentation 14:18:19 The full expansion printout made the buffer I did it in grow to about 2mb 14:18:50 yow! 14:19:20 As for runtime (of the macro) -- there's the obvious inefficiency of destructuring the code and reconstructing a result in each step. 14:19:40 PLT's syntax system has more than just sexprs, so this would be a little slower than just lists 14:20:17 But even more than that -- the macro "calls" itself recursively -- but there is no call really, it just expands into a form that will call it again. 14:20:32 So it's essentially doing the recursion through the macro expansion process 14:20:58 and that means that at best (and this would take a glaringly fast expander) you're running at half the speed. 14:21:32 In practice I expect this to be at least an order of magnitude slower than the simple `reverse' version. 14:22:16 *Plus* you get the benefit of writing `reverse' which is more obvious than following the pattern rules and inferring that this is what's happening there. 14:22:40 That's a definite advantage 14:22:49 Regardless of macro performance 14:24:19 You probably won't be surprised now when I say that I consider the spread of `syntax-rules' to be a bad result of the lack of standardization of some low level macro facility in r5rs. 14:24:20 sjamaan: chicken stumbles over (... ...) 14:24:21 -!- ravenex [n=raven@87.252.243.81] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:19 ah, of course 14:25:32 I wonder when that will be taken care of 14:26:06 Fare [n=Fare@98.216.111.110] has joined #scheme 14:26:08 eli: No argument there. I guess most people agree there should be *some* low-level macro system 14:26:37 It's just controversial which one it should be ;) 14:27:00 hkBst pasted "Direct Style Macros" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83816 14:27:08 yes, there should be a lexical preprocessor guaranteed to always terminate in finite time (albeit sometimes beyond the size of the universe) 14:30:14 there's the thing. Basically the idea was to make it possible to write syntax-rules macros that compose but hide the details of CPS. 14:30:28 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c249DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 14:31:00 -!- sepult` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:41 wingo_ [n=wingo@88.17.130.192] has joined #scheme 14:31:54 aircastle [n=aircastl@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 14:32:38 -!- wingo [n=wingo@83.32.66.205] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:43 hmm, larceny does it very fast :) 14:36:21 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:11 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.87.42] has joined #scheme 14:45:35 -!- wingo_ is now known as wingo 15:18:54 -!- rmns [n=ramunas@85-255-53-21.ip.kis.lt] has left #scheme 15:25:21 Riastradh: could you please take a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83816 and explain how come it errors? 15:28:11 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:13 aircastle [n=aircastl@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 15:30:08 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:31 Leonidas pasted "Red black insertion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83817 15:33:20 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 15:34:21 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@TEPte-10p2-40.ppp17.odn.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:35 -!- Judofyr is now known as Judofyr2 15:41:41 -!- Judofyr2 is now known as Judofyr 15:41:51 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:38 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:50:14 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:56 -!- Fare [n=Fare@98.216.111.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:34 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:08 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:13:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:14:38 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:25:56 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.64.33] has joined #scheme 16:32:40 -!- Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:52 Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:47 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:48 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 16:49:12 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:49 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 17:04:00 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:09:15 aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:17:59 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:23:01 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-119-60.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 17:30:29 yeah, all tests from the scsh awk testsuite succeed for my AWK macro :-) 17:32:09 awesome :) 17:32:55 *rotty* puts a beer in the fridge :-) 17:34:17 good idea 17:34:27 show us the codez! 17:34:37 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 17:36:01 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:36:52 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 17:36:52 yeah, gotta clean up some comments &c, then will check in -- stay tuned 17:37:48 cool :) 17:37:52 have a beer first 17:38:11 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-202.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:39 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-202.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:44:07 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 18:01:48 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:54 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:04:52 moghar` [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:04:52 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:42 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 18:10:18 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-180-235.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:24 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-146-254-105.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:17:34 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-119-60.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:19:17 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 18:24:55 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:27:28 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-73-202.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:30:49 ct2rips [n=ct2rips@p54878721.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:34:23 kniu [n=kniu@pool-72-87-212-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:40:53 -!- Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:59 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-158-188.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 18:43:22 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:44:04 Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 18:45:59 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:50:23 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 18:54:08 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:24 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 18:54:29 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:46 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:24 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-158-188.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 19:08:08 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:16:00 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-242-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:17:25 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:20:46 -!- jao [n=jao@83.50.68.187] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:36:45 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 19:58:40 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-24.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:08:58 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:19:42 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:33 -!- ct2rips [n=ct2rips@p54878721.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Noch da, noch da ... Uuuuund weg."] 20:24:21 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 20:32:50 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:58 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:54 -!- aircastle [n=aircastl@nttkyo895001.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:05 arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.110.90] has joined #scheme 20:39:09 hi! 20:39:20 whats up! 20:39:59 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:42:27 arthurmaciel: Heh allas! thei did crie, and woo be the tyme they saide. 20:44:47 klutometis: error: non numeric value; 20:44:50 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 20:46:16 tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 20:47:02 arthurmaciel: a quote from the Boke of noblesse (1475), to illustrate that "hi!" has been used in one form or another since the fifteenth century 20:47:25 you are thus participating in an ancient institution, at least by western standards 20:50:08 klutometis: impressive. waht do you do for living? 20:50:42 arthurmaciel: i sucker startups into letting me code scheme; then i abandon them, just as they're hiring offshore counterparts 20:55:58 just kidding ;) 20:56:19 -!- Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:37 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:03:24 that's a pity, because that is a job that could be subtitled "International Man of Mystery" 21:08:03 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 21:08:46 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 21:10:09 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:12:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:07 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 21:20:19 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.110.90] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:17 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 21:36:09 amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 21:36:38 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:36 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:37:59 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:43:47 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:49 Elly: i'd settle for "Schrobin Hood" 21:46:43 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 21:48:16 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:04:03 -!- mariorz [n=ffffg@li10-58.members.linode.com] has left #scheme 22:06:49 Pepe_ [n=ppjet@78.113.15.173] has joined #scheme 22:14:19 Greg_Angelouse[M [n=None@79-67-158-188.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 22:18:56 -!- Pepe__ [n=ppjet@78.116.5.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:19:49 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:41 -!- wingo [n=wingo@88.17.130.192] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:33:31 -!- moghar` [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:37 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:00 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 22:38:58 jao [n=jao@187.Red-83-50-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:42:54 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055503.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:03 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:50:19 dmoerner_ [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:28 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-242-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:32 -!- dmoerner_ [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-30-13.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:44 -!- Greg_Angelouse[M [n=None@79-67-158-188.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 22:53:32 citizen995 [i=5d8d60bc@gateway/web/freenode/x-3b224877a720f82d] has joined #scheme 22:54:02 hi, can anyone tell me (I'm new to scheme) why in plt-scheme this does not work: (first 'hello) 22:54:37 I'd like to get a first letter of hello world - I can fo something like this (first '(hello)) - but then I'll get the whole word since it is a first word in a list 22:55:00 'hello is a symbol, not a list 22:55:04 (I'm trying to follow SICP if anyone is wondering) 22:55:29 so how can I then get a first letter of the word? 22:56:00 In video SICP lecture, guy prints (first 'help!) and gets out h 22:56:13 rudybot: eval (string-ref "hello" 0) 22:56:13 p1dzkl: your r5rs sandbox is ready 22:56:13 p1dzkl: ; Value: #\h 22:56:32 really? 22:56:48 http://academicearth.org/lectures/functional-programming-i - about 15:40 in video 22:57:00 it is sscheme though 22:57:33 I've tried to load berkley scm - but same result... I also did (require (planet "simply-scheme.ss" ("dyoo" "simply-scheme.plt" 1 1))) - but same 22:58:34 stupid player, I can't jump to it 22:58:41 damn 22:59:24 14:00 and onwards, not 15:40 23:00:47 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-155-123.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:57 here is a screengrab http://imgur.com/Pgzko.png 23:01:59 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 23:02:52 I've tried it on both R5RS and Pretty Big (my default for learning) 23:05:00 he seems to be using STk scheme with a very strange FIRST procedure 23:05:28 I prefer the old SICP lectures 23:06:12 well I'm trying to follow videos - last time I saw scheme was when men built pyramids :) 23:06:32 so I'll kind of ignore this situations for now when I can 23:07:22 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-207-110.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:14 see, (first 349) outputs 3 in his case :O 23:12:10 and (butfirst 'help!) outputs elp! - meh I'll need to find something compatible to stay on track with the lecture 23:12:58 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:39 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:14:57 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:59 -!- syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has left #scheme 23:21:12 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:22:55 if anyone else looks through the same problem or finds this in archive there is http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~instcd/inst-cd/classes/cs61a/drscheme/berkeley.ss - which solves the problem... you need to replace (require-library "graphics.ss" "graphics") with (require (lib "graphics.ss" "graphics")) and replace cons,cdr,car,set-cdr,set-car with mcons,mcdr,mcar,set-mcdr,set-mcar in the file - run it in custom Pretty Big (uncheck 23:22:56 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/nd5dp 23:23:03 there, took me some time, but I'm now off to the lecture :D 23:48:33 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 23:49:24 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 23:56:17 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:56:21 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:58:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:59:18 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme