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[n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 02:10:39 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 02:14:25 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:19:31 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:19:54 Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:13 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-228-230.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:19 Hello everyone. 02:20:23 How's life holding up? 02:21:08 *jcowan* escaped from the hospital yesterday and is now brandishing an IV tap 02:22:11 jcowan: IV's, them things always creep me out. Especially the ones with the Morphin machines connected to them. 02:23:21 I'll be on IV antibiotics for the next 32 days or so 02:23:24 (if all goes well) 02:24:26 jcowan: Ouch, did you catch a nasty bug? 02:24:50 .oO(Jcowan's being debugged...hm.) 02:24:53 A bone infection in my big toe, which is no joke for anyone and particularly bad for diabetics. 02:25:10 Bone infection? 02:25:13 :-S 02:25:26 Well, that must have been...pleasant. 02:25:38 I didn't even feel it, alas -- nerve damage. 02:25:44 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Success] 02:26:03 I tripped and fell and tried to treat the injury myself. Bad idea. 02:26:10 I think I would go nuts if I found out there was something seriously wrong with my body and I didn't feel it. 02:26:11 Never become a diabetic. It sucks^100. 02:26:22 *arcfide* makes a note. 02:26:32 *offby1* too 02:26:37 I have some diabetics in my family, but for the most part, i think I'm more likely a stroke risk. 02:28:55 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:28:59 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.192.19] has joined #scheme 02:30:05 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 02:36:48 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:49 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 02:50:55 *foof* is most likely at risk for an untreated infection, or a burst appendix, or maybe being eaten by a while animal 02:51:08 At least, going by the earliest 10,000 years of my family history. 02:52:38 s/while/wild 02:52:52 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:55 tjafk2 [n=timj@85.176.203.70] has joined #scheme 02:54:37 *offby1* fears velociraptors 02:54:45 never used to, but after reading xkcd for years ... 02:56:39 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:56 offby1: oh, nice; i got the anti-velociraptor t-shirt 02:57:20 people interpret it as, "no dinosaurs" 03:00:18 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:00:23 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 03:01:30 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Client Quit] 03:01:34 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 03:04:18 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:07 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176207012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:50 incubot: there's a velociraptor after you 03:11:53 It would be like a velociraptor without claws. 03:12:02 er, no; it's got claws. 03:12:33 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.135.247] has joined #scheme 03:13:14 shaunxcode [n=shaungil@65.181.49.171] has joined #scheme 03:13:26 ... not once it caught up with incubot 03:14:44 incubot is megavelocimagnaraptor. 03:17:31 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 03:21:45 offby1 should start reading paleontology books. 03:21:47 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-174-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:58 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Vraptor-scale.svg 03:24:58 Mind you, these horrible creatures weigh up to 15 kg! 03:25:44 *gasp* 03:25:54 but they're _raptors_ 03:26:03 and they're _velocitous_ 03:26:14 (isn't that the guy from the space probe?) 03:26:22 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.192.19] has quit [] 03:27:00 *Hagaer* revels in pointing out movie blunders. 03:27:33 A few of my friends were "Jurassic Park" fans. 03:29:08 After bringing up the "size of a chicken" argument enough times, they started referring to their dinos as "Utahraptor". 03:29:37 Jurassic Park is great when taken with a grain of salt (preferably sedimented in mesozoic). 03:29:43 Ignoring the fact that Utahraptor sounds like a redneck dinosaur in overalls, they are much more similar to the movie monsters in Jurassic Park. 03:29:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor 03:29:55 shaunxcode_ [n=shaungil@nat/yahoo/x-8448441b055c397c] has joined #scheme 03:30:34 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Utahraptor_size_estimate_chart.svg 03:30:36 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ltsou5 03:30:39 *Hagaer* hides! 03:30:57 But `velociraptor' sounds so much COOLER. 03:31:29 Yes, much like velocipede. 03:31:54 Aren't the little dinosaurs at the end of the movie that ate the fat guy closer to velociraptors? 03:32:16 Fractals are so unpredictable! 03:32:55 To be fair Velociraptor looks more turkey sized. 03:33:00 Redneck in overalls? Coming from Utah I'd imagine magic underwear. 03:33:08 Turkeys are a bit bigger though. Huge birds. 03:33:37 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:59 And you could stay safe from being eaten by them by drinking lots of coffee. 03:34:26 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 03:34:30 haha sorry foof I can't explain my irrational stereotypes. 03:35:04 You know they allow you to drink caffeine, as long as it's cold? 03:35:13 You know why? :3 03:35:41 Oh, right, lobbying from the pepsi corp. or something... 03:36:26 ajray [n=NCSU_Boo@cpe-075-182-085-088.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:36:47 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@98.108.3.57] has joined #scheme 03:38:23 -!- shaunxcode [n=shaungil@65.181.49.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:59 I just uploaded an experimental parser at http://launchpad.net/park/ if anyone wants to check it out. It's based on Parsec for Haskell. 03:40:51 No foof what I heard was the LDS church owns Coca Cola. 03:40:54 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 03:40:59 er... yes I mean, basically. 03:41:09 Based on Parsec, but light years ahead? 03:42:06 Oh yeah, 3.2 parsecs ahead. 03:42:26 kind of impossible to see who owns a publically traded company. Lots of stockholders have sneaky ways of being anonymous. 03:43:57 syntropy [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has joined #scheme 03:44:16 anyone familiar with Oleg's html->sxml parser? 03:44:45 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:12 I'm having some trouble trying to extract hyperlinks from an sxml tree. 03:46:25 easy4, given an implementation of Scheme with a flat closure repreesntation, does it exhibit space safety similar to ? Also, what benefit do you attain from writing it using shift and reset, rather than letting the user use shift and reset himself to invert the control of a monad? 03:46:53 Oleg's? No, I use foof's... 03:47:55 The definition of %ALTERNATIVE in parser/park.ss suggests to me that it does not exhibit similar space safety: tail alternatives accumulate stack space. 03:49:15 Riastradh: alternatives are automatically removed when the first token of a choice is matched. 03:49:45 First-class closures are created in separate, top-level procedures to make sure the environment is clean. 03:49:48 synx: well, i'm using htmlprag tbh, but it does what i think i need. 03:50:24 That's good, but that's not enough. Tail alternatives should be treated like tail calls -- there should be no bound on them. But tail alternatives are implemented using non-tail calls; hence their number would appear to be bounded by the size of the Scheme's stack. 03:50:28 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 03:50:48 synx: i want to parse the 'index' page of a forum, and make a tree of all the numeric forum ids, and each of their respective subforums. 03:50:58 is it supposed to be impossible for me to browse the source online on launchpad? 03:51:19 synx: if at all possible, also include the 'names' with each id as an alist 03:51:31 copumpkin, I had to bumble about quite a lot before I got to the source. Here's what I'm looking at: . I have already forgotten how I got there. 03:51:33 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/l5sye4 03:52:01 ah, I came across http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eezacharias/park/trunk/revision/1#parser/park.ss but your link looks better 03:52:02 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/kktbur 03:52:12 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:52:25 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-101-179.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:38 Should be simple enough syntropy, assuming you can find a parser that can successfully translate the page into a useful form. 03:53:31 I've done at least a half dozen page parsers using foof's parser and my own BeautifulSoup style hack wrapper around it. 03:54:33 Riastradh: In the code I write there are only up to 20 or so alternatives to match for a given token so I haven't had any issue. You want me to make sure they are heap allocated? 03:55:47 Here's an example. Suppose I want to implement (MANY-UNTIL ), so that it yields a list of the results of until successfully parses. 03:56:21 Well, in this case, it will accumulate space anyway, so actually let's suppose we just want to ignore these and not put them into a list. 03:57:03 Here's an initial attempt: (define (ignore-many-until terminator parser) (choice (terminator) (begin (parser) (ignore-many-until terminator parser)))) 03:57:58 (With a little imagination you can generalize this pattern to a fold-like parser, so that, for instance, you could take a cumulative sum of parsed items as you go, without accumulating a list of them first and then summing them.) 03:58:56 *Hagaer* is a bit confused 03:59:16 That *should* be space efficient as written. It's not in Parsec, but I tried to design mine to properly support that sort of recursion. 03:59:32 Why is your parser library any different from Parsec in this respect? 03:59:56 What happened to delay/force in R6RS? Has this style of code fallen out of fashion when I wasn't looking? 04:00:17 If you look at the implementation of skipMany in Parsec it can't use tail-recursion. Mine can and does. 04:01:22 Specifically, after a single token matches, mine returns the delimited continuation in order to clear the alternatives before continuing. 04:01:49 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:07:35 I see: you are using delimited continuations so that you can use the Scheme control stack for the stack of parsing alternatives, and still manage them so that they do not accumulate unduly. 04:09:22 Correct. That doesn't actually happen in Ikarus because Ikarus doesn't have native partial continuations. It should happen in PLT, but I haven't tested it completely. 04:09:57 -!- Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 04:10:09 Even if you don't have native delimited continuations, you can improve space safety given some kind of `top-level continuation'. 04:12:25 I wonder how the performance of your parser library, using delimited continuations, compares with that of parscheme, which uses an explicit stack of continuations. (To help to ensure space safety, parscheme should probably be edited to avoid needless closures, which I didn't do because Scheme48 uses a flat environment representation that avoids them anyway.) 04:15:48 I haven't looked into performance very much. I might need to use primitive versions of shift/reset to avoid the overhead of dynamic wind and managing the exception stack if performance becomes an issue. 04:16:30 Why would DYNAMIC-WIND and condition handlers pose a performance issue if you're not using them? 04:19:11 Hmm. I guess they wouldn't. PLT is dog slow compared to Ikarus and I'm not sure why. I think it might be the implementation of shift/reset, but I haven't explored it. 04:24:35 Anyway, it's late, and I need to sleep. 04:25:40 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-67-247-15-85.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:28:26 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 04:29:44 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:45 understanding this conversation is what I'd have to do before I could judge whether one scheme was better than another for any given application. 04:32:16 You have to understand a lot more than this conversation to judge that! :) 04:33:23 I didn't say it was the only thing I'd have to do before... 04:33:26 necessary, but not sufficient 04:33:34 and certainly impossible 04:33:58 -!- ajray [n=NCSU_Boo@cpe-075-182-085-088.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:35:30 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:36:34 Hagaer: it's still there, but it lives in the (rnrs r5rs) library 04:41:16 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-156-29.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:11 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:42:22 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 04:48:39 ASau [n=user@host78-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 04:49:36 syntropy: I have worked with Oleg's code a bit, did you say you wanted to extract links from SXML? 04:52:59 -!- thesnowdog__ is now known as thesnowdog 05:04:37 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:58 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:11:50 arcfide: yes, actually, i got an idea to use pattern matching to read most hrefs. 05:12:08 arcfide: it's not perfect for some circumstances, but it should work 05:13:00 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:13:44 arcfide: do you know if R6RS will be the default mode of Chez? 05:15:06 -!- Pegazus [n=gawgaw@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has left #scheme 05:19:03 I only wish certain forums would actually place the href as the first attribute after 'a'. 05:21:52 synthase: Why don't you use SXPath? 05:22:08 syntropy: ^^^ 05:22:13 synthase: Apologies. 05:22:31 leppie: Chez will be R6RS in the next release. 05:22:49 leppie: Though it will have a good deal of backwards compatibility in most respects. 05:23:26 arcfide: do you have an example? the documentation i've found is hard to udnerstand 05:23:29 understand* 05:24:50 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:25:05 syntropy: I think the comments in the source code is pretty clear, but maybe I can give you an example? I have used it to extract all sorts of data from an e-commerce database written in XML. 05:25:10 It is very succinct. 05:26:39 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:27:58 Do not the source comments have an example of extracting all anchors from some stuff? 05:29:45 syntropy: For example, if I wanted to get all of the anchors in a document, I could just use the SXPath '(a). 05:30:00 With a little extra typing, I could also get the contents of each of their HREFs. 05:30:23 Or, I could get only the anchors that were in a paragraph, or some such. 05:30:33 arcfide: it does sound a lot cleaner than pattern matching. 05:32:46 syntropy: Yes, it's a bit strange to see at first, but if you just read through the examples in the comments, I think you'll figure it out. 05:34:22 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-a79a86b80befb2b3] has joined #scheme 05:36:07 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:36:28 arcfide: I think I'm missing something, because all ((sxpath '(a)) sxml) is giving is '() 05:36:44 and i know sxml has a proper and valid sxml tree 05:41:40 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:41:59 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 05:43:04 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit [Client Quit] 05:43:17 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 05:43:39 syntropy: Oh, right, '(a) should only get the anchors under the root element. 05:44:02 Give me some moments, and I can give you a better SXPath. 05:44:13 ahh, ... ok thanks :) 05:48:22 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 05:49:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 05:51:17 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:51:38 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 05:55:20 arcfide: (sxpath '(// a)) seems to work. it's kludgy i think, but it works. 05:55:44 syntropy: Does it get all of them? 05:55:50 If it does, then that's good. 05:56:14 You seemed interested in only getting the href attributes out, and you can do that, too, so you have only a list of strings. 05:56:19 it gets a lot of them. 05:56:53 I've got numerous uses actually, and now that I think about it, sxpath is probably the cleanest way of scraping the information out of a page. 05:57:03 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:57:53 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:58:08 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.98] has joined #scheme 06:00:13 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw598092.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:33 arcfide: would you happen to know how to strip out what sxpath returns to give only the node's href attribute and text? 06:08:07 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 06:08:22 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:26 syntropy: Do you want just the text or the href tag as well? 06:11:47 i'm trying to get both yes 06:13:10 Try '(// a @ href *text*). 06:13:23 Oh! 06:13:24 Sorry. 06:13:39 Without the *text* part at the end. 06:13:44 '(// a @ href). 06:16:13 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:28 ahh, sxpath-lolevel is waaay easier to use 06:17:15 lolevel? 06:19:45 jlongster [n=user@68.59.187.95] has joined #scheme 06:20:22 syntropy: Do you mean using the Low Level SXPath stuff, or are you talking about SXPath being much easier to use compared to your patterm matching you were doing? 06:20:55 arcfide: both actually. 06:21:18 the sxpath-lowlevel is much easier to use and much more flexible imho. 06:22:21 syntropy: As opposed to the SXPATH procedure? *shrug*. 06:22:37 syntropy: At least, I hope that this makes your life easier. 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proceed according to the R6RS psyntax implementation, I have a bootstrapping problem. do you know if its feasible expanding ice-9/psyntax.scm with another implementation? 12:48:18 rotty: dunno, it's possible 12:48:30 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:48:45 if you mail the list with what you're trying to do, i might have more insight 12:48:59 *wingo* going to take a nap :) 12:49:15 ok, will do 12:54:03 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@59.96.14.130] has quit [] 12:55:12 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.135.247] has joined #scheme 13:02:03 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.135.247] has quit [] 13:03:32 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-70-20-40-108.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 13:03:49 -!- bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has left #scheme 13:10:25 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:52 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 13:19:08 -!- cracki 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[n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:38:42 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #scheme 14:39:11 (just found out PLT has a syntax-case port, so I'll start from that) 14:42:16 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@24.63.67.154] has joined #scheme 14:42:57 hey rotty: what you trying to do? 14:43:11 process some CSV data 14:43:43 over engenering it a bit? :p 14:44:30 I thought about adding `awk' to my library collection for some time, and now I have some actual reason to do so :-P 14:45:02 ohh, that is different from the psyntax thing you mentioned earlier? 14:45:09 yeah 14:45:13 i was reffering to that 14:45:22 (that should have been on #guile) 14:45:24 i dont even know what awk does 14:45:37 oh, those innocent Windows users 14:45:52 i know its on linux, and it hangs out with sed 14:46:16 which i have no clue to use 14:46:22 either 14:47:00 so what are you trying with psyntax btw? 14:47:00 awk -F';' '{ print $3 }' some-file.csv # <-- print out the third field of an semicolon-delimited CSV file 14:47:26 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@190.Red-79-151-168.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 14:47:28 do you need a macro for that? 14:47:33 leppie: add tail patterns to Guile's psyntax implementation 14:47:58 that's the part that caught miy interest, but what does it mean? 14:48:10 s/miy/my/ 14:48:16 leppie: SCSH includes a Scheme macro that works similiarly to the AWK command-line tool, but you obviously you get a nicer language with it 14:48:17 (i know that one) 14:48:28 -!- Judofyr_ [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:59 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 14:50:36 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 14:51:47 (define-syntax guard (syntax-rules (else) ((guard (var (clauses ... (else default))) body0 body ...) ))) is an example where a tail pattern is useful (that's for implementing SRFI-34) 14:52:44 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:53:23 not sure I understand :( but if it' too hard to explain, dont worry :) 14:53:58 leppie: note that the ellipsis doesn't end the pattern in the above code. 14:54:21 that's what I meant by "tail patterns" 14:54:43 huh?, syntax-case support that AFAIK 14:54:51 -!- chylli [n=lchangyi@119.181.15.104] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:59 leppie: Guile's syntax-case is very ancient 14:55:04 ahh 14:55:37 you should try bootstrap to latest one from ikarus 14:56:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:56:49 yeah, that might be worthwhile, but I think there are some Guile-specific peculiarities in the current version. 14:57:03 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:57:09 or perhaps try use the last commit of psyntax from launchpad 14:57:18 wingo could give have a better assessment of that's a good idea. 14:58:01 not such a great idea, i can point you to reasons if you are interested 14:58:01 the guy from moshscheme used some of my version to bootstrap his initially 14:58:28 well that R6RS library thing could be a problem for a non-R6RS scheme :p 14:58:39 leppie: I had problems bootstrapping psyntax (from launchpad) with gosh, csi and mzscheme: "unbound identifier" (x old* new*) 14:59:59 (my intent was using psyntax from launchpad with an implementation that supports @ as an identifier to expand Guile's psyntax.scm) 15:00:31 i found one expansion that work initially, and mange to keep up to date from then (18 or more months now) 15:01:25 been lucky to been able to keep up with some changes 15:02:15 seems the pre-built files have become out-of-sync 15:02:22 yip 15:02:41 you probably need to make sure that version is the same, and start from there 15:02:57 let me try find my original one :p 15:02:57 yeah, will try another day :-) 15:05:47 i used chickens expansion, with kawa's helper functions 15:08:00 that was on 15 Nov 2007 15:08:33 very exciting day :) met psyntax by chance 15:09:13 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 15:11:39 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:12:10 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:35 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:12:37 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 15:13:14 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:13:41 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 15:18:54 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@190.Red-79-151-168.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:42 Ever considered writing a new SYNTAX-CASE implementation that doesn't require this bootstrapping nonsense? 15:22:09 yeah Riastradh 15:22:34 SYNTAX-CASE is too complicated though 15:22:38 Riaxpander doesn't require it, for instance. 15:25:44 -!- mld [n=user@90-224-13-4-no124.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:26 Riastradh: i'll try that in version 3, in about 4 years from now 15:29:02 How complicated can it be? Surely a week of afternoon hacking should suffice. 15:29:53 I have no idea to be honest 15:30:23 I'll keep it in my when starting to experiment with my new compiler 15:30:25 anyone has experience with SOS? 15:30:32 s/my/mind/ 15:31:01 Expand the acronym, please, nvteighen. 15:31:09 Scheme Object System 15:31:18 In the context of MIT Scheme? 15:31:25 yup 15:31:50 not in the context of RMS Titanic :p 15:32:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:32:55 -!- mmc [n=mima@192.100.124.219] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:43:38 parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:15 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 15:53:11 What about RMS Emacs? :) 15:58:46 all ahead, full steam! 15:59:00 captain. set defmacros at maximum. 15:59:48 commander! we seem to be caught in some kind of dynamic scoping flux! 16:01:19 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 16:01:38 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:16 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:08 it appears to be a kind of anti-progress field! 16:11:54 bignums, hygiene, module systems... even packages don't exist here! 16:13:02 cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-249.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:17 Thren [n=Thren@pool-98-113-187-131.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:03 ajray [n=NCSU_Boo@cpe-075-182-085-088.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:18:22 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 16:21:07 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@190.Red-79-151-168.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 16:29:47 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-220-90.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:32:19 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 16:35:51 -!- fingo_ [n=maxim@76-10-148-192.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:36:31 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:38:42 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:40:03 levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-11-166.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 16:42:05 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 16:47:20 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 16:47:42 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslet106.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:53:14 -!- ajray [n=NCSU_Boo@cpe-075-182-085-088.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:55:33 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 16:55:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:56:18 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 17:03:13 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:22 engage fexprs! 17:03:42 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 17:04:18 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:31 elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 17:08:28 the inhabitants of semanticon 6 are known for their haughtiness, captain. show humility, but not weakness. 17:10:34 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 17:14:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-fee448d6632e8a92] has joined #scheme 17:20:05 and this..... is why ..... no one listens ..... to anything..... William .... Shatner.....has to say 17:25:33 security, intruder on the bridge! 17:25:38 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@24.63.67.154] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:52 -!- elderK [n=elderk@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:10 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:29:21 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-94-44-11-166.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:21 levy_ [n=levy@apn-94-44-12-7.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 17:30:27 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 17:32:19 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:19 ah star trek. my guilty, guilty pleasure. 17:45:54 my mind, to your mind, and that kind of shit 17:47:11 I love this channel. If I only cared this much for programming in the first place! 17:48:41 syntropy: programming is my 4th career :) (and will probably be the final one) 17:49:57 leppie: programming is my quirky, relatively unknown outside of the interwebs, hobby. 17:50:12 i was just dumb, and didnt see it 17:50:13 brweber2 [n=brweber2@12.46.250.195] has joined #scheme 17:51:12 like why did I find quattro pro formulas exciting... 17:51:17 leppie: tell me about it. i actually went though with a degree in nuclear engineering! 17:51:28 wow wingo 17:51:42 http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/07/after-6-years-fan-made-star-fox-looks-great.ars <3 17:51:43 silliness, that. i'm sure it built character or something. 17:51:44 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/lvegl2 17:53:03 i lost touch with games when i started to really undersand the innards of programming 17:53:15 me too. 17:53:25 the hack is the game. 17:53:42 everything became "lame algorhtihm" :p 17:53:48 ha! 17:54:18 or just the some weird things within it 17:54:24 it cant be perfect 17:54:45 but some racing game really fustrated me bad with that 17:55:44 if you race slow the whole race, you had better chance of winning at the end dice (which seemed to be preprogrammed) 17:56:55 everything else was perfect... 17:57:05 i usually greif video games since i got into programming, but occasionally something cool shows up, like someone using the Volition Freespace engine to make a Starfox remake. 17:57:10 grief* 18:02:49 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 18:08:46 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:09 roderic [n=user@bubbles.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:09:35 grieve? 18:10:04 synx: griefing games. ala aimbotting, teamkilling, blocking, etc 18:10:20 grief as a verb has only the very recent meaning to ...yeah 18:10:34 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:10:50 Why would you even play a game that wasn't cool, nevermind figure out how to grief? 18:12:05 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:14:45 why would you grief? 18:15:49 well Elly, generally it's to demonstrate some hilarious form of social engineering that teaches us something about ourselves we might not want to admit. 18:16:05 like what? 18:16:10 synx: how could I 'shuffle' a tree? 18:16:27 syntropy: sort? ._. dunno 18:16:36 depends on the structure of your tree 18:16:44 or like why cabt bzr be faster, or cygwin... 18:16:46 or at least 'pick a random node' 18:16:59 s/cabt/cant/ 18:17:02 listify tree, pick random element, treeify list 18:17:09 the clouds are beautiful here. 18:17:30 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:12 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:18:56 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:21:07 hello Fare. 18:21:14 hi wingo 18:22:19 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-220-90.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:54 Elly: two words: Leroy Jenkins 18:23:20 Leroy Jenkins wasn't griefing, IIRC, just a moron 18:25:32 hahha 18:25:42 *syntropy* forgot about the Leroy Jenkins story 18:25:56 griefing is like the 80 rogue killing my 30 warrior and then camping my corpse 18:27:37 *wingo* apparently out of touch with the youth 18:27:40 *syntropy* doesn't play WoW. With the exception of occasional Counter Strike: Source, he hasn't played any video games in years. 18:28:06 *Elly* doesn't spend much of her time in WoW, but more of it there than any other game 18:29:31 *syntropy* thinks Elly is an FBI agent. 18:30:15 Leroy Jenkins was a group of players trying to demonstrate that a particular battle was just too damn hard. 18:30:16 the only game /me occasionally plays is space-backspace 18:30:23 *Elly* is not an FBI agent :P 18:30:36 at least, if I am, I'm one pretending to be of legal age! 18:30:40 which kind of defeats the point :P 18:32:25 Griefing isn't limited to killing lower level characters. Closest definition I could get was "Killing players on your own team." 18:32:54 my definition is that it's doing things for the sake of hurting other people rather than for your own gain 18:33:02 I've never played WoW before, so I can only learn by proxy. 18:33:13 That sounds about right Elly. 18:33:59 Elly: maybe you're trying to put underage boys in prison for participation in statutory rape? 18:34:12 Fare: I do not think that's how that works ;) 18:34:26 with the FBI, who knows? 18:34:35 touché 18:34:41 if I were an FBI agent, that's just what I'd say 18:38:56 If I were an FBI agent I would be employed... 18:39:21 I am employed, but not by the FBI! 18:40:21 if I were an FBI agent, that's just what I'd say 18:40:52 ha 18:41:01 "If I were an FBI agent"... sounds like the beginning of a wonderful song! 18:41:07 wjlroe [n=will@78.86.14.131] has joined #scheme 18:41:54 I'm sure there's at least *one* FBI agent hear, searching for teen-to-teen sexpring. 18:41:57 o/~ doe, a deer... o/~ 18:42:11 chandler: hah :P 18:42:31 yeah, those schemers are a nest of sexual exploiters on the prowl 18:42:33 What in the heck is teen-to-teen sexpring? 18:42:40 *gnomon* facepalms 18:42:47 gnomon: 'sexting'... :P 18:42:51 Please, please don't answer that. Let's pretend this never happened. 18:42:56 (I don't know how I managed to type "hear" instead of "here".) 18:43:01 Elly, uh? I don't know what that is either. 18:43:04 quick, engage the fexpr cloaking device we stole from emacsicon 7! 18:43:11 Har! 18:43:11 gnomon: I assume that is what was being referenced 18:44:09 SEX! I once wrote about that... http://fare.livejournal.com/91483.html 18:44:20 gnomon: "sexting" is a media term for sexually explicit text or (more commonly) multimedia messages. This is being used as a pretense to charge a number of teenagers with child pornography offenses for sending pictures of themselves. 18:44:57 But I'm not sure you wanted to hear the answer to that. 18:45:28 chandler, good golly. This is actually happening, or is a constructed media story? 18:45:34 now you can't un-know that! 18:45:38 Naturally, this unbelievably mind-boggling phenomenon is happening in that magic and romantic land south of your border, gnomon. 18:45:48 gnomon: This is actually happening. 18:45:57 We kid you not. 18:46:01 Riastradh, ah, that would do it. 18:46:02 not only is it actually happening, but people are actually getting arrested for it 18:46:05 The hype is media-constructed; the stupid government officials are just second-order effects. 18:46:13 ...although maybe `kid' is a poor choice of word, since this is a publicly logged channel. 18:46:15 Fare: hah! 18:46:18 chandler, disagreed 18:46:29 the SPECIFICs of the hype are media-constructed 18:46:48 the GENERAL EVIL is a first-order effect of government 18:46:52 Up in the frozen northlands of Canuckistania, you would have to already own, say, a profitable kidney-smuggling operation to afford the charges for regularly transmitting such illicit data across mobile devices. 18:47:14 Elly, that really saddens me. 18:48:01 Fare: I am pretty sure that "oh noes the children" hysteria is a primary cause of government, not an effect of it. 18:48:15 i.e. they'd go and arrest SOMEONE OTHER INNOCENT instead. 18:48:19 In all this legislation and litigation over child pornography, and all these attempts at justifying censorship, won't someone PLEASE think of the adults? 18:48:49 If only, Riastradh. 18:48:55 Riastradh, you sound like George Carlin 18:49:50 Please, don't. "Won't someone think of the children?" is shorthand for "Won't someone think of a way to make criminals out of the children?". If they're thinking of adults, they'll be thinking of arresting you too. 18:50:51 chandler, OK, but what's the type of that proposition? 18:51:00 does it eat a lot of memory? 18:51:29 It's likely you're making a joke, but I don't understand it. 18:52:35 I'm just trying to kill the mood and put things back on topic 18:52:43 Oh. 18:52:48 Good man, Fare! Sorry for that digression. 18:52:56 wingo, what's the latest about guile? 18:53:25 unless of course some female who's of age wants to have crazy sex with me, in which case she can message me privately. 18:53:28 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-477.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:55 *gnomon* moves away from Fare on the bench, there 18:54:18 That's not the kind of sexpring we do here, Fare. 18:55:11 we only bind variables? 18:55:40 "I'm a free variable, bind me!" 18:57:10 Okey, sooooooo...what, uh, fascinating Scheme projects are you folks working on? 18:57:18 btw, any macro sexpert around? 18:57:49 Is that a serious question? 18:57:52 And if so, why not just ask your question? 18:58:02 how do I write a simple macro to print a sexp, evaluate it, print the resulting values, then return them? 18:58:12 Riastradh, well, I've been working on something that exposes a Twitter feed as a maildir... 18:58:19 with defmacro in CL, I know how to do that. 18:58:25 Fare: Do you mean that the *expansion* of the macro would do that? 18:58:38 I believe it is very hard to do with syntax-rules, and am wondering about syntax-case. 18:58:51 At a guess, I'd say "the same way you would in CL". 18:59:14 how do I write a simple macro to print a sexp, evaluate it, print the resulting values, then return them? 18:59:23 return them?? 18:59:55 if you're dealing with multiple values it'll be awkward no matter what 18:59:55 yes, so that (DBG "message" foo (bar baz)) would echo the message, then foo, then the value(s) of foo, then (bar baz) then the value(s) of (bar baz), then return these latest values, all with enough indentation to distinguish the various things involved. 19:00:05 gnomon: it's going ok! just had a release day before yesterday 19:00:24 Fare, do you want this I/O and evaluation to happen at macro-expand-time, or do you mean that you want your macro to expand to an expression that does what you described? 19:00:31 seems like adding the compiler didn't break too many things 19:00:36 Fare: That's trivial to do with syntax-rules; I'm not sure what the issue is. 19:00:53 Riastradh, I want the macro to expand to something that does it at runtime 19:01:02 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:03 lemme paste the equivalent CL macro 19:01:14 gnomon: missing: a little bit of correctness, and a fair amount of speed :) 19:01:15 wingo, excellent! What new and exciting things will be happening in the near future, do you think? 19:01:19 Heh. 19:02:04 gnomon: if i were to guess... within a couple months, an implementation of elisp that's as good as emacs'. that's kindof exciting. 19:02:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83761 19:02:39 multiple-value-list 19:02:44 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:44 apply 'values 19:03:01 is there scheme equivs? 19:03:29 wingo, that's very exciting! 19:03:31 Yes, soupdragon: (MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST ) => (RECEIVE X X), (APPLY #'VALUES ...) => (APPLY VALUES ...). 19:03:46 (multiple-value-list form) -> (call-with-values (lambda () form) (lambda x x)) 19:05:01 chandler, the issue is that I haven't done anything non-trivial with syntax-rules, and I'm wondering whether I should invest in it at all. 19:05:04 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-a79a86b80befb2b3] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 19:05:11 syntax-case solution welcome, too 19:05:16 (has to work with PLT Scheme) 19:05:25 syntax-rules is the best 19:05:37 you can do this easy with it 19:05:58 syntax-rules is the prettiest but it is limited. 19:06:21 There's nothing you need that it can't do here. 19:06:23 limited special-purpose meta-languages remind me of C and C++ 19:06:49 Fare: 19:06:49 ... and of FORMAT, and LOOP, and of macro lambda list destructuring... 19:07:38 hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.225] has joined #scheme 19:07:45 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 19:08:10 chandler, I didn't say I liked THOSE parts of CL, either. 19:08:10 limited special-purpose meta-languages remind me of C and C++ 19:08:14 Fare: but c++ is not pretty 19:08:20 in C what do you refer to? 19:08:24 -!- rdd [n=user@83.250.157.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:25 CPP 19:08:30 yes 19:08:34 okay 19:08:42 CPP is a macro system 19:09:02 it's a voluntarily crippled meta-language 19:09:04 it's textual rather than syntactic though.... 19:09:17 that's the real reason it's so bad 19:09:22 it has some syntaxy bits. not many tho. 19:09:22 like those professional cripple beggars in the street of poor countries 19:09:24 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 19:09:48 chandler pasted "Riastradh is faster than I am, but this is more complete!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83762 19:10:16 There's no indentation in the output; that's left as an exercise for the reader. 19:10:22 The actual macro is trivial. 19:10:28 chandler, thanks 19:10:50 When you have a task like this, ask yourself "what parts of this need to be done in a macro?" 19:10:52 wait -- the scheme reader can solve exercises? Much better AI than the CL reader! 19:11:29 hm? 19:11:30 In this case, you need the macro to produce a quoted version of each form, and to turn each form into a thunk so that it can be called when appropriate. 19:11:54 Fare, you mean the ... ? 19:12:12 In this case, (debug-print a (values b c) d) -> (debug-print-thunks (cons 'a (lambda () a)) (cons '(values b c) (lambda () (values b c))) (cons 'd (lambda () d))) 19:12:35 Riastradh, thanks a lot, BTW 19:13:29 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:13:38 Riastradh put a lot more of the logic into the macro, but I don't think that's necessary or often desirable. 19:14:24 I put more of the logic into the macro only to show a more direct correspondence between the Common Lisp macro and the Scheme macro. 19:14:55 Ah. 19:15:31 This is a general style point; it applies just as much to Common Lisp as it does to Scheme. (If not more so!) 19:21:47 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 19:28:32 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 19:30:28 bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has joined #scheme 19:32:27 bwat74 [n=bwat@host-90-232-121-127.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #scheme 19:34:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:20 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:39:12 hey is there somekind of standard for binary format s-exps? 19:40:22 -!- bughunter2 [n=bughunte@unaffiliated/bughunter2] has left #scheme 19:42:14 Do you mean internally in the interpreter/compiler or do you want to exchange sexps between systems? 19:49:07 yeah, internally, for my toy interpreter's compiled code. I guess text s-exp are way better standard for exchange between systems in general. but still. I was wondering if there were some implementations that are converging toward the same binary format. 19:51:28 I guess it depends on how you want to 'type' your sexps, i.e., tell the difference between cons cells and numbers. A 32 bit implementation might not have as many free bits as a 64 bit implementation (I'm thinking about bits in the pointers indicating the cell's type). Do you see what I mean? 19:52:47 sphex_: What would the goal of such a binary format be? Efficient wire interchange? 19:53:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/83761#2 19:53:41 I used to "save world" in a binary format with a toy interpreter I once used. 19:55:17 chandler, I agree with your general point, btw. 19:57:49 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 19:58:27 bwat74: hrm. ok, yeah. I wasn't thinking of using the interpreter's "native" encoding for this.. I was more thinking of it as just a serialization format with a different, portable encoding. That way I avoid having to think about relocation and stuff. 19:58:49 relocation? 19:59:57 chandler: yeah, of the pointers. in a "save world" scenario. 20:00:51 Would there be much difference between native encoding and a general binary format? At the end of the day a pointer is just a relative id, relative to address zero that is - nice and unique - easy to parse. 20:00:56 chandler: and for now I was thinking of efficient storage, and loading. not that my interpreter is efficient in any way. but still. 20:02:10 My vote would be for ascii so that the reader could load them for you. 20:03:52 aww no fun :p 20:08:56 Quite interested in your interpreter if you feel like sharing any details about it. 20:10:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 20:14:45 -!- hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.225] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:15:06 bwat74: eh, really nothing special. just a SECD machine for now (bastardized with constant-space tail calls, mutable bindings, etc). I spent most time on the expander and module system to support separate linking, and they're almost done; but I have to take a break from those they're driving me nuts. 20:15:59 and.. oooh, I just found out most other schemes are calling their binary s-exps "FASL"s. bwahaha you can't stop me now. I need a FASL. 20:16:39 Yeah but aren't those FASLs just binary data for code and asciis sexps for numbers and strings? 20:17:08 FASLs aren't binary s-expressions. They're compiled code. 20:17:48 Yeah but the code also has to come with the constants it uses, strings and numbers and the like. They are often in sexp form. 20:18:01 oh.. ok. :/ bleh. 20:18:29 I'll see if I can find a FASL from a little sheme compiler I've got on my harddisk. 20:19:09 aactually, it is just the same as you can find in chapter 7 of Queinnec, do you have that book? 20:19:41 nope, lemme google that 20:21:19 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:21 lisp in small pieces? 20:21:32 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 20:21:42 yes 20:22:39 hrm, seems pretty good 20:22:45 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@12.46.250.195] has quit [] 20:23:35 The book is the bees knee's 20:24:34 I should get that. 20:25:12 bwat74: thanks 20:25:38 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:54 I definately think it was a good purchase. 20:26:19 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-212-202.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 20:30:22 does chapter 10 use CPS? 20:34:11 I'm skimming chapter 10 right now. 20:34:39 ventonegro [n=alex@64.22.109.123] has joined #scheme 20:37:19 -!- jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:45 looks like he's got a function called ->CPS which he uses to compile call/cc which makes sense. 20:43:14 ok, great. CPS still confuses me; I hope his expensive book explains it. 20:43:28 afk. thanks for the infos. 20:44:18 :) It will. He goes from the usual type of meta-circular interpreter and then works in CPS over three or four chapters, then he goes from CPS to compiling to byte code. 20:44:57 It will teach you denotational semantics which will help you understand all the Greek in the Scheme report. 20:45:33 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:58 which book is this? 20:46:02 logs? 20:46:29 Probably lisp in small pieces. 20:46:30 Lisp in Small pieces 20:47:14 ah 20:47:31 he compiles to bytecode using direct compilation 20:47:43 several interpreters use CPS, though 20:48:11 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:51:45 Correct ventonegro, I see he drops continuations in section 6.3 20:52:32 Is there a PLT scheme equivalent to apropos? 20:52:41 something that's not docs.plt-scheme.org 20:53:35 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:25 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:32 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:51 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-130-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:59:52 Fare, you mean command line? 21:00:50 jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:02:27 REPL 21:06:20 I think there is a new edition of that book but it currently isn't translated yet. 21:07:36 masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has joined #scheme 21:09:14 i intend to read Compiling with Continuations some day 21:09:25 it seems to be good 21:10:00 very SML specific. I've got that one too. 21:11:15 it's ok, I guess most algorithms apply to compiling scheme too 21:14:29 yeah, he also covers stuff like low level support, e.g., garbage collection, and asynchronous interrupts which was interesting. 21:26:42 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@64.22.109.123] has quit ["leaving"] 21:29:48 140 seconds to get the inode numbers for 44000 files over NFS. Meh. 21:35:57 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:19 how do I get a backtrace with mzscheme ? 21:36:32 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:36:57 Fare, that turnaround time actually doesn't sound too awful. Or maybe I'm just jaded. 21:37:03 if something goes wrong, mzscheme usually gives me a backtrace on its own 21:37:36 yeah, it does 21:37:55 It's telling me I'm passing the wrong argument to hash-ref, but won't tell me which hash-ref, etc. 21:38:12 you don't get a '=== context ===' dump? 21:38:25 nope. Mzscheme itself is not crashing 21:38:30 it's just my program having a bug 21:38:48 right, that's what I mean 21:39:00 for me, mzscheme spits out '=== context ===' followed by the scheme call stack 21:39:23 whoa, on THIS machine, drscheme segfaults at startup (from debian) 21:39:30 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:39:34 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 21:39:44 (this is mzscheme 4.2) 21:39:57 debian testing = plt 4.1.5 21:41:46 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:43:59 65 seconds just to recursively locate the names of those 44k files 21:44:22 Fare: does it complain about something? 21:46:12 mistake -- when I *Run*, it re-does the expensive computation :( 21:48:26 or if it doesn't re-do it, it loses the results :( 21:48:46 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:49:03 and so, I can't get the debugging abilities or DrScheme AND the persistent session state of mzscheme 21:54:16 I think I've got my uses of the hash-table library wrong. 21:54:18 context expected 1 value, received 2 values: # #t 21:54:25 now, how do I get said context? 21:56:58 jengle [n=jengle@64.252.16.230] has joined #scheme 21:57:38 where's your code? 21:57:42 tarbo_ [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 21:58:36 gah. Is hash-ref! a 4.2 novelty? 21:58:52 rudybot: doc hash-ref! 21:58:53 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 21:58:53 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/hashtables.html#(def._((lib._scheme%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..ss)._hash-ref!)) 21:58:58 Fare: I suspect so 22:00:02 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 22:00:16 offby1, how could you tell from the webpage? 22:00:23 (or couldn't you?) 22:00:37 I don't think you can :-| 22:00:46 I just kinda dimly recall mailing-list discussion about it 22:00:52 rudybot: eval (define h (make-hash)) 22:00:58 rudybot: eval (hash-ref! h 'foo 'bar) 22:00:58 *offby1: ; Value: bar 22:01:01 rudybot: eval h 22:01:01 *offby1: ; Value: #hash((foo . bar)) 22:01:20 yes, hash-ref! is *good* 22:03:21 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:04:57 offby1: my code is a big (353 lines) script that tries to garbage-collect an archive of RPMs. 22:05:48 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:06:01 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:40 if you care to see it, I can mail it 22:07:10 it's also my first non-trivial attempt at using PLT Scheme 22:11:02 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:11:03 44k files, but only 17k inodes -- plenty of hardlinks. 22:12:31 What do I gotta do to talk you out of using hash-ref! :-) 22:12:40 I prefer the purely functional variants 22:14:40 -!- jengle [n=jengle@64.252.16.230] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:14:50 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:15:22 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:11 offby1, sometimes passing things around in a monad is just a PAIN 22:18:30 especially when there are 4 different hashes to pass around 22:18:38 remember: state is MODULARITY 22:19:06 (and modularity is indeed a pain when you can hold only a module at a time rather than all the pieces together) 22:19:27 (woe to languages that don't let you change the view on your program dynamically) 22:20:00 state is MODULARITY -- I'm not sure what that means? 22:20:32 mostly state is algorithmic things for me, or OO 22:20:46 it means that it lets you write programs modularly, such that each part (subprogram, module) need only see the state in needs to see, without having to explicitly handle and pass around the state it doesn't care about 22:20:58 ah! yes I see 22:21:17 a haskellite will tell you "Oh yes, but monads do that for me!" 22:21:26 except that they don't combine in a nice way 22:21:37 yeah they do 22:21:46 not nice enough. 22:21:50 but yeah, better than nothing. 22:22:01 anyway half the schemers WISH they were using haskell 22:22:14 except when they're glad they don't 22:22:31 *soupdragon* wishes this anti-SET! stuff would die 22:22:32 OK, so how do I extract more info from mzscheme than "context expected 1 value, received 2 values: " ??? 22:22:37 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 22:22:54 can I trace my functions as in Lisp? 22:23:24 reference to undefined identifier: trace 22:24:35 (require trace) ? 22:24:51 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:16 jonrafkind, thanks! 22:26:19 (doh) 22:27:42 it seems that trace causes macro-expansion time stuff to be output that I don't care about 22:27:47 Can I un-require it? 22:28:10 you mean unrequire it after the function you care about? 22:28:23 the short answer is no 22:28:28 (and my bug was to put only one variable in a for statement where two where provided by iterating over a hash-table, when I only cared for the key) 22:28:30 you could move the function you care about to another module 22:29:06 actually I guses you can set it programatticaly 22:29:13 with (instrumenting-enabled on?) 22:29:15 chandler: (lambda x x) is more easily written as `list' 22:29:45 Fare: Did you ever look at my interactive hack, or do I need to drag you by the ear to it? 22:29:58 trace outputs lots of things like (# 31489246) which I don't care about 22:30:17 Fare: If you'd look at that, you'd see that `apropos' is one of the toplevel commands that it gives you. 22:30:29 eli: OK - where is your hack? 22:31:11 Fare: On my newly revised web page... 22:31:18 Under "hacks". 22:31:34 Second item. 22:31:57 does for/hash return an immutable hash? 22:32:29 eli: could the docs include version history? such as the fact that hash-ref! only appeared in 4.2 ? 22:32:47 Like for/list, but the result is an immutable hash table -- so yes 22:32:51 'lo Fare! 22:33:07 alaricsp: I'm reading your hydrogen papers with interest 22:33:09 how are you? 22:33:23 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:33:24 I see we also have related startup projects 22:33:30 I'm glad to hear they're being interesting :-) 22:33:33 I'm... overworked ;-) 22:33:41 is there a for/mutable-hash ? 22:33:48 Fare: go to the docs, click the friendly looking "Release Notes" on the left, then "MzScheme" -- and then look for `hash-ref!' on that page. 22:34:36 Fare: Yes, `for/hash' returns an immutable hash table. 22:34:38 shaunxcode_ [n=shaungil@65.181.49.171] has joined #scheme 22:35:02 (Not much point in returning a mutable table, since you can just do `hash-set!' in a `for' loop.) 22:35:05 -!- tizoc is now known as tizoc_cobol 22:35:14 *Fare* tends to write code in foo<-bar style so it composes as (foo<-bar (bar<-baz baz)) 22:35:48 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 22:35:57 Fare: Also, debian packages tend to be pretty bad IME, for some reason. 22:36:04 IME ? 22:36:10 In my experience. 22:36:14 gotta go 22:36:17 I love you all 22:36:33 TTFN Fare! 22:36:34 Fare: If you're on a 64 bit machine, then the stack trace was added "recently" for that. Possibly post 4.1.5. 22:36:41 it's much harder to debug in an environment you don't understand 22:36:53 64 bit indeed 22:37:31 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:02 Fare: As for DrScheme style backtraces -- you can do that with the errortrace collection -- and you get detailed context dumps to the expression level. See instructions on using it from MzScheme at http://docs.plt-scheme.org/errortrace/quick-instructions.html 22:38:27 That's the same thing that DrScheme uses, so yes -- you can use mzscheme while getting that kind of detail level. 22:38:49 -!- shaunxcode [n=shaungil@nat/yahoo/x-418bcb25673650fa] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:38:52 Also, note that errortrace *does* make code run slower, since it basically instruments it by adding lots of stuff when it compiles. 22:39:45 thanks again 22:39:56 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:42:43 rudybot: later tell Fare for CL-style tracing of functions see the `trace' macro -- http://docs.plt-scheme.org/mzlib/mzlib_trace.html#(form._((lib._mzlib/trace..ss)._trace)) 22:42:43 minion: memo for Fare: eli told me to tell you: for CL-style tracing of functions see the `trace' macro -- http://docs.plt-scheme.org/mzlib/mzlib_trace.html#(form._((lib._mzlib/trace..ss)._trace)) 22:42:56 *eli* slaps minion 22:42:56 Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks. 22:43:05 *eli* unslaps minion 22:44:06 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:44:44 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:45:04 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c8F99BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:06 -!- tizoc_cobol is now known as tizoc 22:48:17 eli: are the plt docs friendly looking in the same sense that the new xerox and at&t logos are? ;) 22:54:54 klutometis: That requires that I know how the xerox and at&t logos have changed, and what kind of a comparison you intend to draw between a logo and a piece of documentation text. 22:55:54 Dewi_ [n=dewi@guy78-3-82-239-227-15.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:07:51 -!- bwat74 [n=bwat@host-90-232-121-127.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:34 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:50 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:52 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:15:26 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.191.93] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:20:42 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.163.128] has joined #scheme 23:21:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:08 ziggurat [n=quassel@pool-96-226-117-126.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:34:27 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@201-40-162-47.cable.viacabocom.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:29 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:38:58 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:39:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 23:41:54 -!- ziggurat [n=quassel@pool-96-226-117-126.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:54:28 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme