00:03:51 -!- elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:03:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:04:00 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 00:04:40 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:48 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:08 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 00:28:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 00:30:13 arcfide: SYN 00:31:10 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:48:15 QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 00:50:02 nostrand [n=rickard@h-62-207.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 00:55:20 -!- nostrand [n=rickard@h-62-207.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has left #scheme 01:03:56 metasyntax [n=metasynt@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:08:08 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:09:39 Riastradh: yes? 01:10:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:10:26 arcfide, ACK. if you use paredit, you may be enticed by several new bells and whistles at > 01:10:31 ...the last `>' of which was meant to be a `.'. 01:12:16 Riastradh: Thanks for the notice. I am not currently using paredit, but I took note of it in case I am ever using Emacs again. 01:13:17 Gee, paredit version 1 was pretty small. 01:13:36 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-05ff785e4105721c] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:10 ... was Emacs even out back then? 01:21:57 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [] 01:26:39 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:26:41 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:03 zbigniew: to obey the Riastradhian parlance, however, you have to distinguish between ``emacsen'' 01:32:55 cky_ [n=cky@h54.86.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 01:33:23 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 01:35:18 -!- cky [n=cky@h54.86.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:35:20 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 01:37:42 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 01:44:19 incubot: that's positively brobdingnagian 01:44:22 it's just that the players are Brobdingnagian 01:45:19 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 01:46:26 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 01:51:51 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 01:58:04 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 01:58:38 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:12:31 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:27 brweber2 [n=brweber2@68.100.65.167] has joined #scheme 02:27:07 bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:36:08 jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has joined #scheme 02:46:18 karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:22 Why does clojure's quasiquote use ~ to unqote instead of , ? 02:55:39 syntactic innovation is important! 02:56:31 ... 02:57:01 I never even noticed that before, and it's just boggling my mind what the author was thinking. 02:57:14 You presume, foof, that the author was thinking about it... 02:57:42 He had to. Copying decades of Lisp requires no thought. Changing something at least requires conscious effort. 02:58:04 He kept "`" and gratuitously changed ",". 02:59:18 I seem to remember something about "(1, 2, 3)" being valid syntax, but I might be confusing it with some other horrible syntax. 03:00:55 in Clojure, the comma is equivalent to whitespace 03:01:11 Yup, that's it. 03:01:37 ... for the list thing to make it look more like other languages I suppose 03:01:45 i do declare, whatever does he use for bitwise-not? 03:01:52 ... 03:02:04 It is kind of handy for maps especially. 03:02:27 at least it is not perl 6 03:02:52 Or Haskell (which would be a cool language without the syntactic insanity). 03:03:02 (http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark/periodic/) 03:03:03 -!- rocketman [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:03:35 perl6 operators rival unicode in their naming creativity 03:04:12 P+0032 SHORT CIRCUIT JUNCTIVE ALL 03:09:46 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 03:10:16 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:10:29 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 03:20:57 U+0716 NOSE HAIR COLLECTIVE PARADE 03:24:31 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@68.100.65.167] has quit [] 03:29:02 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 03:29:31 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:29:52 -!- Quadre` is now known as Quadrescence 03:30:08 U+0716 is  03:30:57 haha it's right aligned too, wonder if any clients can handle it  03:31:04 ohoho it totally messes mine up 03:31:51 mine too 03:33:49 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:34:02 wzk [n=gian@200-163-88-4.gnace703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #scheme 03:34:30 -!- metasyntax [n=metasynt@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #scheme 03:34:42 -!- wzk [n=gian@200-163-88-4.gnace703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has left #scheme 03:36:56 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:40:40 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:53 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 03:42:00 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:43:41 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-142-245.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #scheme 03:48:26 rudybot: uptime 03:48:26 *offby1: I've been up for two weeks, five days; this tcp/ip connection has been up for three days, ten hours 03:49:06 arcfide [n=arcfide@ppp-70-246-142-245.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:11 rudybot: how much time until you are useful? 03:49:11 mbishop: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 03:51:46 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:53:15 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:56:11 *rudybot* hurls offby1's dentures at mbishop 03:56:16 hey, I was using thoes 03:56:18 those 03:57:40 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 03:58:08 Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has joined #scheme 04:12:08 QinGW1 [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has joined #scheme 04:12:50 -!- karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:37 -!- QinGW [n=wangqing@203.86.81.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:13:53 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:20 -!- Quadre` [n=quad@24.118.241.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:23 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-22.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:17 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:28:50 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 04:31:35 CSdread_ [n=danielf@75-161-36-171.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:32:51 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:38:30 -!- bweaver [n=user@c-68-60-0-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:52:28 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as TR2N 05:04:05 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:08:52 afgawgawe [n=oijerger@host250.190-224-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 05:11:32 dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 05:13:06 foof: If Haskell is syntactically insane, then what's SML? 05:13:56 SML is a lot simpler. 05:14:18 Ocaml lost much of the simplicity though. 05:14:24 ?? 05:14:39 IME, Ocaml was like a saner version of SML, and Haskell better than both. 05:15:03 The best SML gem is `&' and `or'. 05:15:11 Nuke``` [n=talron@bzq-84-111-47-240.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:35 ...because `and' is taken for combining bindings, and `|' for patterns. 05:15:46 There can't be any execuse for that. 05:16:08 Actually, it's been a while since I've played with any ML. 05:16:20 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:16:40 I'm not sure about syntax, and was just assuming Ocaml had more since it adds OO and other features. 05:16:47 SML is the only language that made me so disgusted that I had to sit down and write how horrible it is. 05:17:16 But the layout and precedence rules for Haskell are insane. I always have to fully parenthesize even small programs in it 05:17:47 Ocaml is pretty decent, ignoring the horrible OO syntax (something like foo#bar) and the floating-point operations, and the tendency for every language extension to use some new kind of crazy parens like [: ... :]. 05:18:53 And one thing that Haskell does right is making the syntax for type constructors look like the syntax for values of the type -- like [Int], vs *ML where you have to know two different kinds of syntaxes. 05:20:36 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:21:00 I'd just as soon not have to write type declarations :) 05:22:51 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 05:25:20 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@75-161-36-171.albq.qwest.net] has quit [] 05:26:54 leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-92f9939fd47e013a] has joined #scheme 05:27:17 dysinger_ [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #scheme 05:27:41 -!- Nuke86 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#scheme 06:20:36 Hey people. 06:20:56 hello 06:21:08 *Elly* is reading McCarthy's reflections on the implementation of lisp 06:21:36 *elderK* nods 06:21:42 I was reading through similar things last night :) 06:22:28 davidad1 [n=davidad@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:24:15 -!- davidad1 [n=davidad@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:19 link? 06:26:39 http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node2.html#SECTION00020000000000000000 06:26:44 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/m558d5 06:34:22 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71-20-231-3.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:43:12 Catch you later guys, going off on a walk :) 06:45:33 davidad1 [n=davidad@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:45:45 -!- elderK [n=elderK@222-152-15-122.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [] 06:47:03 -!- davidad1 [n=davidad@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-TWO-SEVENTY-SIX.MIT.EDU] has left 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#scheme 11:56:57 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-162-84.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:58:26 Charles_Ding [i=Charles_@58.246.143.21] has joined #scheme 11:58:33 hello, this is xsd's schema? 11:59:33 i want to know how to implements that if a is "A" then b is "C" 12:02:35 Charles_Ding, No, this the is the Scheme programming language 12:02:44 oh 12:02:47 sorry, I dont know this language 12:02:56 is it xml schema? 12:02:57 You might try #xml 12:03:08 ok,thanks 12:03:24 No, Scheme is like lisp 12:03:36 Or is a lisp 12:03:44 ok 12:03:47 I know lisp 12:03:58 it's a function oriented language is it? 12:04:33 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 12:05:09 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 12:05:28 Charles_Ding, I'll let others answer that 12:05:34 ok 12:05:36 thanks 12:05:54 Charles_Ding: no 12:06:23 it's multi-paradigm 12:06:34 ok 12:09:36 dsssl, the original xml processor, was a scheme dialect 12:12:55 -!- Charles_Ding [i=Charles_@58.246.143.21] has left #scheme 12:13:57 blackened`_ [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:19:40 ouch 12:19:47 so the scheme is evil as well 12:21:11 rouslan [n=Rouslan@pool-71-161-75-33.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 12:23:49 shambler [n=~hi@213.184.241.199] has joined #scheme 12:24:00 stabin [n=stabin@87.252.249.2] has joined #scheme 12:27:28 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@89.102.28.224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:46 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:35:17 cky [n=cky@h90.69.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 12:35:42 scheme is the root of all evil 12:36:05 levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-254-90.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 12:36:16 -!- levy [n=levy@apn-89-223-254-90.vodafone.hu] has left #scheme 12:37:35 r5rs identifier 12:37:36 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for identifier. 12:37:46 r5rs identi 12:37:46 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for identi. 12:43:25 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 12:48:05 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 12:52:36 -!- dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:53:08 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 12:53:17 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:54:57 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:56:28 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:52 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:03:25 incubot: square of scheme is evil. 13:03:29 How can you use the square of the smallest number to easily calculate the square of the two largest numbers? 13:03:51 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:04:09 you don't evil is prime! 13:06:54 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has joined #scheme 13:11:57 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:21:54 annodomini_ [n=lambda@129.170.241.32] has joined #scheme 13:27:13 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@156.33.195.78] has joined #scheme 13:27:46 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:29:01 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:33:07 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-174-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 13:33:44 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:19 -!- Nuke``` is now known as Nuke86 13:40:48 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-247-203-169.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 13:41:58 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@156.33.195.78] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:48 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 13:51:26 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 13:52:17 incubot: the root of scheme is live 13:52:20 I tutor math full time at a local community college and my students are mired in a world of sloppy syntax. Radicals terrify them because they don't look like anything they've ever seen before. We should just banish the root symbol all-together and use fractional exponents. 13:59:15 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:59:34 jlongster [n=user@68.59.187.95] has joined #scheme 14:00:37 blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #scheme 14:01:01 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:50 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 14:04:16 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:10:33 a-s`` [n=user@92.81.147.107] has joined #scheme 14:11:39 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@pool-70-109-130-209.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 14:11:58 -!- leppie|work [i=52d2e3c8@gateway/web/freenode/x-92f9939fd47e013a] has quit ["Page closed"] 14:16:37 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.81.146.45] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:17:27 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 14:19:00 -!- rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:55 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:20:22 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 14:24:23 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 14:30:14 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:31:03 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit ["rebuilding emacs!"] 14:31:33 nostrand [n=rickard@h-62-207.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 14:31:34 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 14:32:10 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-231.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:36:12 yawn 14:39:01 *offby1* stretches 14:41:04 *antoszka* picks teeth 14:41:29 hey -- that's my line! "/me picks his teeth with a matchbook cover" 14:41:40 *offby1* calls the "Intellectual" Property Police on antoszka 14:43:06 lol 14:43:21 That only proves intellectual property is unprovable... 14:43:35 pfft, i patented the algorithm 14:43:57 *offby1* offers nostrand a cross-licensing arrangement 14:44:05 For proving ownership of intellectual property? 14:44:16 no, for picking teeth ^^ 14:44:33 Hm. 14:45:53 thesnowdog_ [n=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has joined #scheme 14:47:05 -!- offby1 is now known as offby2 14:47:22 --ffastmath :p 14:47:51 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 14:48:12 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:48:33 -!- offby2 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:40 -!- jlongster [n=user@68.59.187.95] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:08:46 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:34 jewel_ [n=jewel@41.247.203.169] has joined #scheme 15:09:37 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 15:11:10 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme 15:13:18 karlw [n=karl@136.152.170.253] has joined #scheme 15:16:19 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:16:20 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:16 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:39 -!- blandest1 [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:22:16 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:22:23 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-162-84.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:44 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has joined #scheme 15:24:24 -!- Summersault [n=root@189.107.157.209] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:24:28 Summersault [n=root@189.107.157.209] has joined #scheme 15:30:00 H0lyD4wg [n=g@bzq-79-181-132-240.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 15:32:54 -!- thesnowdog [n=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:19 danarmak [n=danarmak@93-173-200-198.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #scheme 15:36:50 hello, O great and benevolent schemers. 15:38:03 i'm coming from a background of languages with static type analysis. H0lyD4wg has explained to me what macros are, in essense, and i see that they're incompatible with type analysis (being the set of all possible transformations of ASTs). 15:38:29 danarmak: I don't know what you mean, can't you just expand macros then do type analysis 15:40:09 soupdragon: don't you have/allow code with macros that can't be expanded at compile time to have no macros? 15:40:34 expanding all macros would require the equivalent of running the program 15:40:34 no 15:40:58 ok, then i was thinking in terms of a language that does allow unrestrained use of macros. 15:41:02 no macros can be completely sytactic 15:41:34 this is unrestrained 15:42:14 i don't understand what you mean by completely syntactic 15:44:59 i had the initial impression that macros are sort of turing-complete all by themselves, so you can't just get rid of them all by expanding. for one thing, the size of the fully expanded program could be effectively unlimited 15:45:25 at least as unlimited as the busy beaver of corresponding size 15:46:19 Macro expansion may not even terminate! 15:46:32 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:46:34 righht 15:46:39 But if it doesn't terminate, or takes a very long time and expands stupidly big, then in general, your program won't run and you ought to fix that. 15:46:52 After all, they could *lowers voice to whisper* /even expand to buggy code/ 15:47:10 but it may be the case that the program would run (and terminate reasonably soon) for some input, but not for other inputs. 15:47:24 such programs can be useful 15:47:35 When you write macros, you write programs that run at compile time, and as such, it's your responsibility to write programs that don't hang or run out of resources ;-) 15:47:36 Yes 15:47:51 but in expanding the macros, you're sort of trying to provide for all possible inputs and so the time/space of the expansion is that of the worst possible input. do i have it right? 15:48:04 And your macros can be held to the same standard: if you write a macro that might not terminate on some inputs, then you ought to document it as such so that users know its limits. 15:48:16 No, the inputs to a macro are purely the arguments it's called on 15:48:40 Say you write a macro that accepts two integer arguments and expands to the result of the Ackermann function on those two arguments... 15:48:47 right, my bad. i see it now. 15:48:56 of course you can't link a macro's input to the actual program's input. 15:49:09 because macros only work on the AST... 15:49:16 Indeedy; so no run-time values are present! 15:49:22 Just source code. 15:49:42 ok, so macros are just a fancy way of writing program-generating programs. 15:50:15 then what i was talking about at first, transformations over ASTs at runtime, have in fact nothing to do with macros. 15:50:50 Well, at run time, you might expand some macros with an eval :-) 15:50:59 (eval '(let-syntax ...)) :-) 15:51:02 yeah :-) 15:51:34 But that's just me confusing things: it's runtime of your program, but that 'eval' does expansion-time then run-time of the little program you pass it, totally independently. 15:51:56 After all, the "run time" of gcc is the "compile time" of some poor C program ;-) 15:52:06 i understand. 15:52:24 Many don't ;-) 15:52:46 hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.158] has joined #scheme 15:53:13 as i said, i'm coming from a different background, of (wanting to learn) static type analysis on languages which don't allow things like eval at runtime 15:53:51 Yes 15:54:03 -!- karlw [n=karl@136.152.170.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:54:08 clearly an eval that doesn't have any type restrictions can't be analyzed. 15:54:22 Hi I'm new to scheme. Anyone tried to follow the book "Simply Scheme" by using plt-scheme? 15:55:43 my question is - what are some really powerful and beautiful examples of using eval, which *can't* be done as well in any completely statically typed language, not even one i'm allowed to design without being able to implement the typechecking in question (as long as i can show it's possible)? 15:56:19 danarmak, were'nt you looking for beautiful examples of *macros*? 15:56:21 this would mean the type-unsafe effects of the eval would have to invade the entire program, as opposed to eval'ing some user supplied code in a sandbox and inspecting the return value. 15:56:43 H0lyD4wg, i was, but it looks like i was still confused about the relationship between macros and eval. 15:57:03 danarmak: eval isn't very interesting wrt types 15:57:06 i will also welcome examples of beautiful macros, it's interesting 15:57:40 soupdragon: well, the question is, why have eval? the downsides are pretty obvious. what are the real upsides? 15:57:55 I don't know any downsides 15:58:03 soupdragon: well, it breaks the typechecking 15:58:14 it's a downside if you *have* static type checking 15:58:17 how does it? 15:58:31 if you allow eval to modify the local env, 15:58:52 it can bind values to names completely disregarding their expected types. 15:59:12 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:22 so future operations would fail unpredictably, and compile time type checks can't protect you. 15:59:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:00:18 it can also bind legally-typed yet malicious values that'll cause runtime failures. 16:00:53 IMHO, static type analysis has many benefits, but the mainstream approach to it is to limit your language so that everything can be analyzed, rather than finding ways to handle uncertainty in the type checking. 16:00:59 H0lyD4wg: true, but that falls under the general heading of runtime failures that typechecking doesn't catch at compile time. there are always some (lots, really) and eval isn't special in that regard 16:01:36 alaricsp: if by mainstream you mean javalike, then i totally agree, it's totally not worth the cost 16:01:50 I'm interested in things like CL's declarations, which let you say "This binding will always refer to an integer, and I may be slapped if I lie!", that the compiler may *optionally* feed into a partial type inferencer 16:02:12 CL = Common Lisp. 16:02:57 -!- ASau [n=user@77.246.230.122] has quit ["off"] 16:03:00 Now, more complex type systems that can express polymorphism etc. are interesting, but I still haven't seen a seductive cost/benefit tradeoff in one: ones that can understand complex things tend to be complex ;-) 16:03:02 alaricsp: my personal favourite is a language that is completely unrestricted, and the compiler tells you what invariants it was able to prove. 16:03:07 H0lyD4wg: Yep, that's the CL I meant 16:03:12 forcer [n=forcer@c228087.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #scheme 16:03:14 danarmak: Yes, that's the spirit! 16:03:54 completely unrestricted? 16:04:06 alaricsp: so in that spirit i want to understand what benefits there are to eval (and equivalents), since the compiler will never be able to prove anything about code that depends on eval 16:04:06 wait. Even _kids_ can use it?! 16:04:07 does that mean something? 16:04:24 soupdragon: it means you write code as in a completely dynamic language, like python say. 16:04:35 I can see two main benefits for eval 16:04:42 1) You can use it to write a REPL, as a user interface 16:04:58 soupdragon: if the compiler can prove some invariants, that gives you a nice feeling and fewer tests to do, and you can give it hints or requirements for things to prove using type annotations. 16:05:22 soupdragon: if the compiler can prove invariants that conflict with one another, you've just found a bug. 16:05:39 soupdragon: if the compiler can't prove something you want to be true, you fall back on unit and runtime testing as usual. 16:05:46 2) You can use it to dynamically execute code, perhaps by having a CPU server that accepts programs over a network and returns their results, dynamically loading things like 'device drivers', writing server frameworks that can be given a new version of the handler for a given network service and load it on the fly without restarting the whole thing, etc 16:06:18 If your eval implementation is fast, then you may also be able to implement things like complex database queries in a DB server by converting the query into Scheme source code and eval-ing it, rather than writing your own 'interpreter' for your query language 16:06:55 my dream language is "completely unrestricted" in the following sense: code is illegal (compile error) ONLY if the same code, absent any compile time type checking, would provably generate a runtime error on every possible input. 16:07:26 weird 16:07:35 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 16:07:38 danarmak: I concur. I blathered a bit about this in the past: http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2008/05/08/type-systems/ 16:07:42 I think you're confusing LANGUAGE with IMPLEMENTATION 16:07:58 thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has joined #scheme 16:08:06 Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 16:08:11 alaricsp: can't you do both 1 and 2 with a compiler + sandbox? why do you need a fully fledged eval? 16:08:56 soupdragon: The two are a bit intertwined in this - the design of a language affects what any implementation might be able to deduce about it. C is harder to statically analyse than Scheme in some ways, due to the pointer arithmetic, and easier in other ways, due to the strict typing... regardless of your implementation. 16:09:12 danarmak: Compile+sandbox is a perfectly good implementation of eval ;-) 16:09:14 alaricsp: you can enforce (at runtime) invariants on data passing and sharing with COW and so on, and prevent the user-supplied programs from contaminating your server... can't you? 16:10:00 offby2 [n=fircuser@m180e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #scheme 16:10:20 alaricsp: is compile+sandbox completely equivalent to eval? the two programs (invoker and sandbox) are separated and each can be fully type-analyzed separately. 16:10:30 Yes, you can; it's just a way of implementation an eval function. But one with a lot of per-eval overhead doing all the compiling and forking to begin with! 16:11:08 That depends on how you define the detail of what (let ((foo 1)) (eval '(set! foo 2)) foo) means 16:11:16 if there's a sandbox in place, then the user supplied code can't e.g. replace a library function used by the server with a different one. 16:11:23 I'm not sure exactly what R5RS has to say on that matter 16:11:29 that's different from an eval which can do anything it likes. isn't it? 16:11:55 danarmak: eval accepts a second argument: an environment 16:12:03 You can pass it a safe environment that acts as a sandbox 16:12:20 sjamaan: i know. that's why eval is strictly more powerful than compile() with a guaranteed sandbox. 16:12:32 er, compile() + run in a guaranteed sandbox 16:12:56 my question was, both the examples given by alaricsp can be usefully implemented in a sandbox. 16:13:11 so what's a practical, useful example that needs the un-sandbox fully fledged eval? 16:13:26 -!- Fabse [n=mightyfi@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 16:13:41 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@98.202.86.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:59 Any eval that runs trusted code 16:14:28 A compiler might well use eval to implement macro expansion (the body of the macro is scheme code, to be evaled) 16:14:54 LOAD can be implemented as a loop that READs and calls EVAL 16:14:57 Hmmm, R5RS makes the environment compulsory, so has no definition for the meaning of (let ((foo 1)) (eval '(set! foo 2)) foo) 16:15:05 That's right 16:15:24 It mandates two standard environments, neither of which would be able to reference "foo" in my example 16:15:30 I don't think there's a scheme that passes the current lexical environment to eval 16:15:51 *nod* 16:15:56 You might be able to explicitly construct an environment containing bindings that mirror the lexical ones 16:16:10 "The effect of assigning (through the use of eval) a variable bound in a scheme-report-environment (for example car) is unspecified. Thus the environments specified by scheme-report-environment may be immutable." 16:17:14 So it looks like any ability for eval-ed expressions to actually reach out and mutate the calling program (other than via values explicitly shared between the eval-ed expression and the rest of the caller) is entirely an implementation-dependent extension 16:17:25 hmm. in typical imperative languages, running trusted code is indeed written as compile+load. 16:17:43 but then, the loaded code is expected to supply some interface or other 16:17:52 But eval *could* return *anything* (including an error), so the type of the *result* is not statically deducable (unless the expression to be eval-ed is statically known) 16:18:04 A smart compiler could guess the type of (eval '(+ 1 2)) 16:18:22 you *could* just call a loaded mutate(universe) function, but it doesn't seem like good design :-) 16:18:42 so i guess an example is something like firefox with its plugins. 16:18:49 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:19:15 i gather it's famous for not having any plugin <-> browser interfaces but just letting the plugins reach out and insert code into arbitrary locations 16:19:18 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:20:04 Not a great way to design software :-/ 16:20:12 But, it's quick and easy ;-) 16:20:16 i'm not sure how good an example that is though, because it ultimately arose from the fact that javascript in web pages also has that unstructured (lack of) design, and it's not a desirable outcome 16:20:24 alaricsp: precisely :-) 16:20:53 alaricsp: so i'm still not convinced that, if i were designing a language, it would be a good thing overall to include eval. 16:21:22 What's the cost, though? Eval comes in handy for certain things. 16:21:39 Even if you implement it as compile+sandbox :-) 16:21:44 in fact i tend to think that useful type analysis would consist first of all of identifying 95% of all code/objects as immutable, and that would preclude that style of programming :-) 16:21:50 You don't strictly _need_ it, but then you don't strictly _need_ the + procedure either... 16:22:12 with a guaranteed sandbox, it's not eval anymore. calling it eval just confuses the issue, imho. 16:22:13 Yeah, it's quite easy to do immutability analysis in Scheme, module system permitting 16:22:30 For bindings, at least. Internals of data structures is another matter. 16:22:45 For each binding x, check within its lexical scope for (set! x ...) 16:23:28 the main reason i want immutability is that it makes an actors model so much easier in practice. 16:23:46 I want immutability since it makes certain optimisations easier... such as type analysis ;-) 16:24:03 The majority of bindings are never set! 16:24:25 but it's true, the main cost is that you can't replace things like moduels at runtime without very painfully confirming the type of the thing being replaced isn't changed at all, and even then you have different code using different modules or objects with the same name 16:24:32 Only vectors, and Very Big Data containers 16:24:33 like the horror that is multiple class loaders in java 16:24:45 For those, I _need_ set! 16:24:58 -!- offby2 [n=fircuser@m180e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:02 -!- thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has quit [Success] 16:25:03 sjamaan: Evem then, it's the contents of the objects that are being mutated, and the bindings are untouched 16:25:04 and i do want to e.g. reload modules without restarting the server 16:25:09 "(set! (vector-ref ..." is something else ;-) 16:25:29 danarmak: Yes. I saw a paper recently about that, let me see if I can find it... 16:25:39 alaricsp: yes but then you're constrained on what some other piece of code can keep a reference to 16:26:05 danarmak: What if the API changed? Then you can't just reload the module 16:26:15 I think it was this: http://w210.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/frontdoor.php?source_opus=2423&la=de 16:26:24 I guess in many cases there will be differences in the types, in fact 16:26:36 alaricsp: if an object is immutable, i expect all other objects reachable from it to be immutable too 16:26:36 the hard you try the harder you hit the russel paradox. 16:26:38 sjamaan: Yes, and then the module load should fail up front, cleanly, with an "API hash mismatch!" error, rather than dying badly further down the line 16:27:19 Why would it die? If the corresponding clients of the module are reloaded along with the module itself, there should not be a type error 16:27:24 danarmak: There was some work done by one of the Scheme implementations on making cons cells immutable (with an explicit mutable-cons type available for people who needed it) 16:27:32 They could that set-car! and set-cdr! are very rarely used indeed 16:28:04 sjamaan: Ok, sure, if you reload a module that in turn required a new version of a module it used, then that should recursively reload it all and all work 16:28:08 there's the whole issue of having references to a name vs. to its current value, which is great for confusing programmers. 16:29:07 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:29:10 the relation between an immutable name (can't be rebound) and an immutable object, whether these are the same or not... lots of icky language design details that confuse me. truly the space of possible languages is huge and poorly explored :-) 16:30:31 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:53 And that's all the fun ;-) 16:31:50 alaricsp, re: immutable cons cells, that was PLT-scheme. 16:34:05 well, this discussion certainly expanded my mind. thanks! :-) 16:34:45 it's almost a little frightening how the saying about programmers rediscovering lisp (badly) is true. 16:35:28 i started fantasizing about PL design a little over a year ago. started with fun & powerful additions that the best languages i knew then didn't provide. 16:36:21 and every time i invented (or discovered, i guess :-) something cool, it turned out to be one of the fundamental ideas in classical functional-programming laguages. 16:36:33 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:37:06 Yeah... it's a shame that programming education focusses on rubbish languages 16:37:22 Languages that remain popular because they're widely used, rather than because they're *good& 16:37:35 worse is better, eh? ;) 16:37:41 after many rounds of this i realized that if i want to design a really good language, i *have* to understand at least one language of the lisp/scheme family, one of haskell/ML, etc. 16:38:20 forth too :) 16:38:51 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 16:38:55 even though i still believe things like imperative code have their places, i can't just take an imperative language and bolt on lisp-y features and have something that works 16:39:02 i have to think things up from the ground 16:39:13 -!- shambler [n=~hi@213.184.241.199] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:22 FORTH is good, indeed! Rather low-level, though - but there's a place for low-level languages. Somebody's gotta write those bootloaders. 16:39:27 And embedded systems. 16:39:31 And so on :-) 16:39:40 danarmak: You might want to have a look at Ioke. It's an attempt to see what happens when you try to make a language as powerful as possible, without any worry about performance at all 16:39:46 and for some reason (cough cough) the people that really think things through are really hard to find in the purely imperative camp :-) 16:40:05 sjamaan: i thought the original lisp answered to that description? :-) 16:40:12 heh 16:40:13 sjamaan: the one without an integer type 16:40:43 The original lisp was an attempt at defining the minimum amount of operators required for computation, iirc 16:40:50 It wasn't about power 16:41:08 bbl 16:41:33 yes, but you could also write any power-giving tool you wanted *in* lisp, so in that sense it was a very powerful language 16:41:59 after all, if you really don't care about performance *or* readability, then the less syntax the better 16:42:24 s/readability/every program not becoming its own mutually unintelligible dialect/ 16:43:10 btw, if there's one idea from imperative languages that i'll probably always stick to, it's seeing the integer as a more fundamental type than the list. 16:43:57 it just seems cleaner somehow to have a primitive tag type, or a boolean type, and build the rest as sum types... instead of having a primitive list type, and representing sum types as lists of different length. 16:44:07 probably personal preference though :-) 16:44:55 actually, strike the boolean type, that's just another case of premature implementation. tags are the way to go. pure types :-) 16:45:33 except that the name 'pure types' is already taken and i can't recall what it is exactly 16:46:00 danarmak, just to make sure we use the same terms, what are your definitions of sum-type and product-type? 16:46:48 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 16:46:48 H0lyD4wg: by sum-type i meant the a-or-b construct. 16:47:25 so, int = 0 + succ(int) 16:48:11 i never liked the name product type though 16:48:34 sum and product types don't seem to map to sum and product operations in algebra 16:48:48 maybe they do, and i don't have the right algebraic construct in mind 16:49:16 they map to the union and cartesian-product operations of group theory. 16:49:24 right 16:50:00 the names make it seem as if they should map to sum and product operations in 16:50:05 in rings 16:50:39 sjamaan: ioke is incredible, actually; the bnf that describes the language is much simpler than even scheme; post-order evaluation is a little weird; and it seems to be inspired by ruby 16:50:46 s/group theory/set theory/ 16:50:59 danarmak: if A has 3 elements and B has 3, A + B has 6, A * B has 9, A -> B has .. lots 16:51:07 H0lyD4wg: ok, set theory is at least a lot simpler than group theory :-) 16:51:16 (stupid hebrew homophones...) 16:51:48 soupdragon, 3^3 16:51:56 i see 16:52:00 |B|^|A| 16:52:02 that does make sense 16:52:26 but 16:52:41 no, no but :-) 16:53:15 then what mathematical construct maps to subtyping? 16:53:33 in set operations, that is, without fully fledged lambda calculus 16:53:42 danarmak, subsetting. 16:54:07 oh! since all the members of your sets are terminals! 16:54:14 *bing* 16:54:19 ~~ enlightenment 16:55:33 so it's... direct representation of all possible values as the narrowest-possible types 16:55:35 :-) 16:56:17 then, do there exist non-discrete type systems, so to speak? 16:56:22 ones that map to uncountable sets? 16:56:33 what does that mean? 16:56:50 i'm not sure. that's why i'm asking :-) 16:57:15 it would be a type system without terminal types 16:57:33 or at least with types that can't be resolved to terminal types by any countable sequence of steps 16:57:46 i'll try to think it through and see if it makes any kind of sense 16:59:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:01:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:21 Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 17:05:21 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:13 are turing machines with uncountably-large numbers of states more powerful than ordinary ones? 17:06:27 i guess that's what my question comes down do 17:06:28 to 17:06:30 -!- Nuke86 [n=talron@bzq-84-111-47-240.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:45 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:58 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:04 turing machines with more than Aleph-null states? d00d! 17:07:38 well are they? 17:08:04 rather, i should have asked, 17:08:26 are TMs with uncountably many states more powerful than ones with countably but infinitely many states? 17:08:38 since 'ordinary' ones just have a finite number of states 17:08:51 *sladegen* recently read that NFAs are equivalent in power to DFAs so i would guess finite turing machines are just as good as idealized infinite ones. 17:09:09 klutometis: Where's that BNF at? I can only see the incomplete "informal" BNF in the documentation 17:10:01 danarmak: perhaps you want surreal types a la conway's surreal numbers... 17:11:21 sladegen: surreal types exist? google doesn't know about them 17:11:38 no, i just made them via analogy. 17:12:07 I remember reading that real-valued (recurrent) neural networks are more "powerful" than Turing machines; maybe a Turing machine with uncountably many states would be computationally equivalent to those (Turing machines can be represented as recurrent neural networks). Just guessing. 17:12:11 s/em vi/em up vi/ 17:12:50 sladegen: talking of mathematical constructs, 'made them' may be just as valid :-) 17:13:27 *sladegen* loves inventing words and seeing their google count hits. 17:15:50 danarmak: When you start asking about TMs with infinite states (or infinite anything), you're no longer in CS. 17:16:02 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has joined #scheme 17:16:04 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:16:07 danarmak: As for your earlier questions, do you know about Typed Scheme? 17:16:36 eli: i'm not sure i even qualify for Knowing about (ordinary) Scheme yet... and no i don't. 17:17:40 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:17:42 danarmak: Then look into it -- it is a statically typed language (that comes with PLT Scheme), but it's still Scheme -- you get to use macros as usual, and you can even use `eval' (except that you'll need to be very careful for other reason.) 17:17:48 eli: and yes, i realize that due to physical limits on info storage per volume&mass, infinite machines of any type aren't really practically interesting... 17:18:01 not like the question of the power of (real world) quantum computers is interesting 17:18:38 Well, last time I checked Quantum Computers where still at a ridiculously small number of bits and extremely impractical. 17:18:59 sjamaan: oh, i see; i took that for the complete BNF 17:19:02 But even with that you'd still need a finite number of states for every machine and every program. 17:19:43 klutometis: Don't let yourself be mislead so easily! ;) 17:19:56 klutometis: Remember Ola's post "ioke loves syntax" 17:22:31 going back to my first question though... suppose i have a program that operates on members of an uncountable set, like an algebra solver for real numbers. 17:22:51 the program has finite size, so it operates on a finite number of reals, but they can be different ones on each run (from input). 17:22:52 danarmak: You don't. 17:22:59 well i *conceptually* do 17:23:05 sjamaan: it struck me as bizarre that foo() and foo were in some sense equivalent; does that mean first-class functions are out? 17:23:09 eli: can't i? 17:23:15 No you can't. 17:23:22 eli: ok why can't i? :-) 17:23:43 You're working with some finite representation of real numbers -- you *cannot* work with the actual real number, even though you call them that. 17:23:58 eli: what do you call the set of all real numbers that have some finite representation of size S? 17:24:00 klutometis: I don't think so, but I'm not sure; I haven't looked into ioke that deeply yet 17:24:20 klutometis: But knowing Ola, he might have taken a page from Ruby's book and made it possibly with some funky operator like &:foo 17:24:46 iirc that's ruby's syntax for making the "foo" method first-class 17:24:54 danarmak: I don't remember I but there's definitely a name for them. 17:25:34 eli: oh, now i remember... i once read a bit about uncalculable (is that the word?) numbers which can't be represented in any finite size at all. 17:25:35 danarmak: With the surprising result that we can talk about real numbers as much as we want -- we *still* can only mention only numbers in a countable set. 17:25:54 i think the name is "very small natural numbers" 17:25:59 eli: the relevant result was that if you choose a real number at random, the probability that it's completely uncalculable is 1. 17:26:08 very surprising indeed 17:26:10 danarmak: Maybe -- something like "misparim hishuviyim", which is probably some butchering of some more known name. 17:26:32 "computable numbers"? 17:26:35 eli: I understood that Turing machines were said to have an infinite number of 'switches'? 17:26:42 Or at least an uncountably large number... 17:26:50 H0lyD4wg: No, it has nothing to do with natural numbers. 17:26:58 That's why they describe the limits of computability. 17:27:44 H0lyD4wg: Whew, looks like it ("computable numbers") for some reason I had "algebraic numbers" stuck in my head for a while. 17:28:02 right, the name is simply "Computable numbers" according to WP 17:28:15 synx: infinite and uncountable isn't the same 17:28:23 synx: No, turing machines (and computer programs) cannot be infinite. 17:28:43 and the set of computable numbers is of course countable. the universe is *weird*. 17:28:58 We're just very limited in that way. 17:29:07 Oh I see, uncountable means like extra infinite. 17:29:14 synx, countable means infinite. uncountable means MOAR INFINITE. 17:29:20 synx: yep ^^ 17:29:23 haha 17:29:28 eli: I think it can be infinite... 17:29:30 infinite++ 17:29:53 synx: You can certainly try to write an infinite program. I won't hold my breath though. 17:29:53 pbusser2, more like 2 to the power of infinite. 17:30:10 Like how there are an infinite amount of real numbers, but between any two real numbers there are an infinite amount of real numbers. 17:30:33 eli: Turing machines are purely theoretical. Nobody's going to be able to build one? 17:30:49 synx: I said "infinite *program*". 17:30:51 i am one 17:30:54 :D 17:31:22 You said TMs with infinite states. 17:31:29 -!- tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:31:39 there is infinite^infinite number of infinities. but if you seen one you've seen them all... 17:31:43 synx: And BTW the surprising thing that you're referring to is that there is a rational number between every two real numbers, and a real number between every two rationals -- but there are a *lot* more real numbers than rational numbers. 17:31:51 chaitin's constant is what i was thinking about 17:32:05 synx: "TMs with infinite states" == "an infinite program". 17:32:16 number... i don't think it's constant... 17:32:39 it's like a lower bound of computability. 17:32:49 I was under the impression that at least what Turing talked about was like a computer with infinite switches and unlimited patience. Then he just proved what such a machine could not do. 17:33:12 s/of co/of inco/ 17:33:26 sladegen: it's a different number for different equivalent program encodings, so it's not a constant like pi or e... 17:33:29 -!- thesnowdog__ [i=thesnowd@122.110.28.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:02 synx: unlimited patience yes, unlimited states no 17:34:43 so what it has like, 3 switches? 10 switches? 17:34:51 danarmak: yes, but even in individual cases it can not be called constant as it's not finitely determinable, i think. 17:35:00 I could describe a lot of programs that couldn't be emulated with 10 switches, no matter how patient you are. 17:35:20 synx: since the most common question about a given turing machine is whether it will halt given input X. in some formulations halting or not is in fact the only bit of output that machine ever returns. so talking about an infinite number of states makes no sense. 17:35:33 synx: it can have any number of states, as long as it's finite. 17:35:53 synx: different turing machines are like different programs. each machine has a different, finite size. 17:35:59 Uh... so the limit of that would be...infinite? 17:36:37 synx: depends on what you mean by limit. it has no finite upper limit, but it only ever takes finite values. 17:37:00 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:11 each particular TM has a finite size. that size can be as big as you like. 17:37:25 There are as many states as the number of angels which fit on the tip of a needle. 17:37:33 OK so a Turing machine could have infinite states, but it must have a finite number of initial states. 17:37:47 synx: no. no. no. a turing machine has finite states. period. 17:37:53 synx: it doesn't get more states later on. 17:37:59 synx: it's always *in* a particular state 17:38:14 synx: but the whole meaning of states is that you start out with all the states you'll ever have 17:38:18 states are *potential* states. 17:38:32 they're states the machine *might* end up in if you run it on the right input 17:39:22 states not switches. the literal "state" of having switch 1 on and 2 and 3 off, that's a turing machine state. 17:39:29 *states aren't switches 17:39:31 What if it took a real number as input? 17:39:39 Okay. 17:39:46 synx: well as i've just been reminded here, you can't take a real number. 17:39:56 synx: at least not *any* real number 17:40:46 synx: in the TM model, your input can be infinte, but it's a sequence of bits. most real numbers are irrational and you can't represent them as a sequence of bits (i.e. in base 2). 17:41:18 i can: "sqrt(2)" 17:41:20 :D 17:41:22 HG` [n=wells@xdslgm157.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 17:42:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #scheme 17:42:19 I guess I can't say much to that then. 17:42:23 nostrand: right, you can represent some irrational numbers as a finite string, but still the total amount of real numbers you can represent as a string of any length is only countable. 17:43:04 camt [n=camt@216.223.150.129] has joined #scheme 17:43:18 It's countable, but is it finite... 17:43:27 yep 17:43:38 synx: it's finite for representations upto a finite size S. 17:43:48 danarmak: [0,1] :D 17:43:54 synx: it's infinite for representations of infinite length (as bit strings), but still countable. 17:44:04 Like I could make a program that produces a program identical to itself, but that takes an integer one greater than the one passed. 17:44:35 Then I could make a program that runs that program ad infinitum, and thereby end up with a program that takes an infinitely long integer value. 17:44:57 synx: well the amount of integers is only countable, so what's the point? 17:44:57 But it would still be countable, couldn't do that with real numbers. 17:45:18 nostrand: that's not a number, that's a set :vp 17:45:34 The point is that a Turing machine can have infinitely many states, as long as they're countable. 17:45:50 synx: no. a TM can have only finitely many states. 17:46:03 synx: that's part of the TM definition. 17:46:11 synx, if you run your program ad infinitum you don't "end up" with anything. the run just doesn't end. 17:46:25 synx: you could define a TM with infinitely many states, but all the normal CS results would be inapplicable and it wouldn't be interesting 17:46:42 synx: the fundamental question we ask of any TM is, does it ever terminate? 17:46:46 synx: that's how we get a bit out. 17:47:11 synx: we can know it never terminates if it ever repeats a state, because that means it's stuck in a loop. 17:47:42 synx: but if it has infinitely many states, we can't do that, so we can't analyze it. it's a complete black box, and AFAIK not very useful from a theoretic point of view. 17:47:48 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgm157.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:50 er 17:47:54 what i meant to say was, 17:48:11 with finitely many states we wait for it to enter each state at least once. 17:48:21 if it has M states, then after time M we know if it's going to halt or not. 17:48:40 but if it has infinitely many states, we never know for sure unless it happens to enter a loop. 17:49:41 and we can't even do that with a normal finite-state machine, because we need infinitely many bits (=states) to remember which states it has already visited. 17:50:13 so i guess an infinite-states machine would be strictly more powerful, in the sense of "resists analysis more powerfully" :-) 17:50:40 and not requiring infinite tape to run... 17:52:10 incubot: turing machines feeding on turing machines for everone! 17:52:13 everone knows that norrland is more scenic 18:00:32 So you're saying the only question anyone has ever really asked of a Turing machine is whether or not it halts? 18:02:53 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:04:07 not the only question, but in some sense it's the most fundamental question. 18:04:51 if your machine returns more than one bit of data (by overwriting the tape, or by ending in one of many possible halting states), then to actually get that data you still have to make it halt first. 18:05:16 if it doesn't halt, or if you can't be sure when or whether it will halt, then you won't get any other data out of it either. 18:05:36 What an exercise in futility... 18:08:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:09:02 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:33 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:12:01 Wait, what about a program that produces results, but then continues on? Like a web server never (hopefully) halts, while producing web pages. 18:14:21 what about it? 18:14:49 as a Turing machine, it receives an infinite stream of input (user requests) and produces a matching, deterministic infinite stream of output. 18:15:19 So you enclose the non-halting behavior into a "stream" object. 18:15:27 it operates under a constraint: once it has produced some output it can't recall and modify it. 18:15:34 general TMs don't have that constraint. 18:16:24 maybe someone else should pitch in here... 18:16:36 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:02 so yes, there are different kinds of TMs, but the general set of all TMs still requires the halting analysis. 18:18:07 i thnk. 18:19:21 Saying a web server does nothing besides produce a web server is convenient, but not obviously useful... 18:19:38 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["jebane ppp"] 18:19:55 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:19:58 A web server that produces 10 pages and exits would be a halting program, but one that does not exit can't be introspected at all? 18:20:10 no, it can be introspected 18:20:20 i'm just saying it's a special case, not applicable to general TMs 18:21:29 for the webserver TM, the analysis question might be: having been given a finite amount of input, will it generate the corresponding finite amount of output in finite time? 18:21:49 you could model it as having a machine that services one request, and re-running it for each request 18:21:54 and then it becomes the standard halting question. 18:22:22 but there may be other machines for which you can't do this transformation, and you'd analyze them in terms different from the halting question. 18:22:30 for instance, given a machine that calculates digits of pi. 18:22:51 it never halts, but we can prove that for any N it will calculate the first N digits in finite time (and not need to change them later). 18:25:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:26 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:39:02 -!- H0lyD4wg [n=g@bzq-79-181-132-240.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:40:10 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 18:42:37 -!- danarmak [n=danarmak@93-173-200-198.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:06 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:43:32 tessier [n=treed@mail.copilotco.com] has joined #scheme 18:48:36 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:48:47 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:49:28 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:21 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:57:10 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:36 There are several new editions of patches, and one new patch, for paredit in . 18:59:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:02:17 jao [n=jao@52.Red-83-43-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:27 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:15:10 cky_ [n=cky@h80.187.132.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 19:18:42 HG` [n=wells@85.8.71.215] has joined #scheme 19:20:02 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:26 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:20:53 -!- cky [n=cky@h90.69.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:22:58 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:15 Nuke86 [n=talron@dallal1.fix.netvision.net.il] has joined #scheme 19:26:51 elias` [n=c@host86-134-4-243.range86-134.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:31:06 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 19:38:13 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:43:40 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 19:49:49 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 19:58:51 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:00:35 ambient [n=ambi@julma.lnet.fi] has joined #scheme 20:02:24 vgeddes pasted "match-let" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/83317 20:09:14 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:23 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 20:22:53 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:25:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 20:25:41 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:28:29 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["If you reach back in your memory, a little bell might ring, 'bout a time that once existed when money wasn't king."] 20:28:38 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:33:46 rushi [n=rushi@rushispowerbook.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has joined #scheme 20:35:03 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:37:43 -!- ski [n=slj@85.224.17.144] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:52 ski [n=slj@c-9011e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 20:46:28 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@strombola.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 20:55:09 dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has joined #scheme 20:56:49 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:01:53 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 21:02:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.189.132] has quit ["..."] 21:08:59 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:10:11 + is an atom? 21:10:35 Define `atom'. 21:12:20 First page of The Little Schemer. Lost my copy, BTW :( 21:13:43 Riastradh, atom = an expression that can be a single value 21:13:51 -!- camt [n=camt@216.223.150.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:17 What do you mean by `that can be a single value'? 21:14:33 Do you mean an expression that yields precisely one return value, rather than zero or more than one, such as (VALUES 1 2 3)? 21:16:59 yes 21:17:11 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-110-90.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:18:07 no 21:18:16 an expression that can be a single value 21:18:19 like 23 21:18:35 Do you mean, then, a self-evaluating datum? 21:18:51 Are you referring to the symbol named "+" or the result of evaluating said symbol? 21:18:59 Such data include all numbers, booleans, strings, and characters, but nothing else. 21:19:06 an expression that isn't compossed of smaller pieces 21:19:24 Why are you concerned about whether + is an atom, anyway? 21:19:28 Is there some context to your question? 21:19:35 I made an exercises 21:19:41 I just started to learn 21:19:46 I'm at the begining 21:20:57 *I make an exercise 21:21:13 (sorry for my english) 21:21:36 What is the exercise you are doing? Where is it from? Are you reading a textbook, or are you taking a class, or...? 21:22:01 I'm ready Simply Scheme by Brian Harvey 21:23:08 He writed as a "preque" for SICP 21:23:34 *"prequel" 21:23:38 I suggest that you skip this exercise; the term `atom' doesn't have any useful meaning in Scheme. 21:23:58 ok 21:24:01 Is it any more or less useless elsewhere? 21:24:25 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-19-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:25 *(I'm reading ...) 21:26:32 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@41.247.203.169] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:15 chandler, at least it has a standard definition in Common Lisp. Whether it's useful, well, I don't know. 21:28:27 In the context of Scheme, it is anti-useful. 21:28:41 It wastes the time of everyone who asks about its definition and argues over the best definition. 21:29:37 I wasn't aware there was an argument over the definition. The only one I'm familiar with is the complement of PAIR?. 21:30:31 That includes vectors, then, which troubles some people, because vectors sure don't seem to be atomic objects without subobjects. 21:33:10 You could have quite a debate over what objects are "truly atomic", I'm sure. I just view it as a relatively arbitrary name for objects which are not conses. 21:33:40 Any more than a vector of two elements is not a pair... 21:33:53 `Pair', at least, has a precise, standard definition in Scheme. 21:35:11 -!- hezy [n=hezy@62.56.254.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:47 -!- nostrand [n=rickard@h-62-207.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:28 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@dip-14-250.coloradocollege.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:13 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:50:53 -!- HG` [n=wells@85.8.71.215] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54:33 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-176-61.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:00:44 rouslan_ [n=Rouslan@pool-71-161-70-183.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:48 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-174-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 22:24:39 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:07 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 22:26:33 -!- Hagaer [n=user@27.62.broadband3.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:39:14 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-170-25-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:24 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-170-25-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:44:42 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:45:28 -!- paragon24 [n=elitegam@pool-71-179-36-111.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Bye :("] 22:47:34 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:19 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:52:52 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:53:58 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 23:07:57 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-47-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:26 -!- cky [n=cky@h80.187.132.98.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:12:04 cky [n=cky@h80.187.132.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 23:12:46 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:16 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 23:33:20 syntropy_ [n=who@unaffiliated/syntropy] has joined #scheme 23:33:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:42 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-110-90.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:11 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:21 -!- rushi [n=rushi@rushispowerbook.dynamic.ucsd.edu] has quit [] 23:40:28 -!- snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:41:13 snurble [n=snurble@s83-191-238-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 23:41:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:42:37 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 23:45:34 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [Client Quit] 23:53:21 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has left #scheme