00:04:47 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:27 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:05:59 foof: In your Chibi implementation, how do you know your SEXP_MAKE_IMMEDIATE will create a value that will never be another sexp value? 00:06:02 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [] 00:08:05 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:55 -!- patchwork [n=user@ip227.fa1-0-1.occ.iinet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:18 -!- melgray_ [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 00:15:15 sladegen: LOL 00:16:10 peter_12_, what do you mean `create a value that will never be another sexp value'? 00:16:47 Riastradh: in Chibi a sexp is a C pointer 00:17:40 Well, sort of. It is a pointer with the assumption that `struct sexp_struct' objects are always aligned at least enough so that the two lowest-order bits are zero. 00:18:19 hmm 00:18:28 Riastradh: how did you conclude that? 00:18:33 So misaligned such pointers are not, in fact, interpreted as pointers; they are interpreted as other objects, depending on what the two low-order bits are. 00:18:52 This is a rather elaborate way of saying that an sexp is a bit string whose two (or three or four) low-order bits form a tag. 00:20:12 Riastradh: but I don't see where the guarantee is implemented that a "normal" struct sexp_struct is aligned so this all works out ok 00:21:23 It's not really stated. 00:22:33 Riastradh: then how is it known to be true? 00:24:02 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:24:16 It works out that way. GC_malloc, behaving like the standard malloc, returns a pointer to storage suitably aligned for any object. Generally, this implies that its address is at least an integral multiple of the size of a double. 00:24:37 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:50 -!- mariorz [n=mariorz@unaffiliated/mariorz] has left #scheme 00:24:53 Since a double requires eight bytes, the address is an integral multiple of 2^3; hence the two lowest-order bits, and in fact the three lowest-order bits, are zero. 00:25:00 -!- ccondon [n=ccondon@pool-71-169-121-89.altnpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:25:38 mariorz [n=mariorz@unaffiliated/mariorz] has joined #scheme 00:27:02 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:28:06 Riastradh: Thanks very much. I'll have to look into this more. I don't know these sorts of details about standard malloc. 00:28:08 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 00:28:25 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-6557.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 00:30:55 -!- soupdragon [n=f@83.104.248.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:31:47 yinw [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has joined #scheme 00:33:36 Riastradh: hey. BTW, you know how I was trying to avoid tracking the phases of identifiers by using separate expanders for each level of macro? turns out you can't do that with syntax-case. cause you cannot know which identifiers in the macro will end up being returned to the lower-level expander as the output of the macro, and which are going to be evaluated by the macro. 00:34:04 Huh? 00:34:11 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:35:53 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:37:53 -!- yinw [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:46:16 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-393.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:29 Riastradh: say a simple case of a macro like (lambda (x) (some-other-macro hello)). you don't know if some-other-macro is going to return the a (syntax hello) form that means hello should be in the run-time phase, or if its going to use hello as a variable in the macro-phase. 00:50:12 Why do you want that? 00:50:13 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 00:50:27 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:49 want what? 00:51:05 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:55:26 Riastradh: and that happens when implementing syntax-rules using syntax-case, for example. syntax-case is really a PITA to support and looks like it won't allow the slightest derivation in how its implemented. :/ 01:01:02 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 01:01:08 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:02:58 jdelgado [n=jdelgado@245.Red-81-33-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:01 sphex_, can you please elaborate on that example? 01:03:54 -!- jdelgado [n=jdelgado@245.Red-81-33-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 01:04:16 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-59166837432855ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:07:26 Are there any implementations of syntax-rules that support multiple ellipses in a pattern? 01:07:56 chandler: Can you give an example? 01:08:40 (syntax-rules () ((_ (a b) ... (c d e) ... f) some-expansion-here)) 01:08:41 Riastradh: ok, say the first macro could be (let ((hello (syntax world))) (other-macro hello)). if other-macro is (lambda (x) (unwrap-syntax-cadr x)), then hello must be looked up in the expand-time environment. 01:09:58 saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-41-238.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:06 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-160-97.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:29 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:53 chandler: That seems like trouble. :-) I would be interested to know if a Scheme supported that, and how they handled cases where it is ambiguous. 01:12:36 Hm. I'm writing a pattern matcher, and naturally ended up with patterns like that supported because I didn't make any special effort to disallow them. That led me to wonder why the syntax-rules implementations I tested did not allow this. 01:13:16 As of right now, ambiguous patterns like (a ... b ... c) will result in b matching nothing, in my implementation. 01:16:35 Riastradh: and actually that example is bogus because (syntax hello) wouldn't work. ok, say hello is bound in both the run-time and expand-time environment. a macro that does (other-macro hello) may end up returning (syntax hello) (which refers to hello in the run-time env), or something like (hello), which just calls hello in the expand-time env. 01:16:56 dammit this justs keep confusing me 01:19:07 chandler: eh, mine too 01:19:40 chandler: Hrm, I think the problem with those patterns is that they can be ambiguous, and thus, you can't just say that putting this pattern in here will work. Instead, you have to say, "Well, it might work, if you are clear enough." 01:20:30 saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:20:35 Also, I'm not finding any language in R6RS that would indicate that supporting these patterns is *not* mandatory, given the ( ... ... . ) rule. 01:20:37 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:54 arcfide: Well, two solutions spring to mind. One is to check that the patterns are not ambiguous; the other is to specify exactly what happens when they are ambiguous. I suppose it could be left unspecified, too, for people who would write their pattern matcher in the reverse order of mine. 01:24:40 Riastradh: so it looks like the C standard doesn't guarantee any sort of alignment like you are discussing. It is particular systems that would have byte alignment or multi-byte alignment 01:24:42 When explaining the meaning of that rule, they use the term "nth and final cdr". Perhaps they're intending that the nth cdr must *not* be a pair. 01:25:27 chandler: It could be done. R6RS may have done it, it wouldn't be the first time for something like that. 01:26:23 I'm not quite sure what they did here. Oh, for a little of that much-loathed Common Lisp specification verbosity! 01:27:46 peter_12_, the guarantee is C99, Section 7.20.3 `Memory management functions': The pointer returned if the allocation succeeds is suitably aligned so that it may be assigned to a pointer to any type of object and then used to access such an object or an array of such objects in the space allocated. 01:28:04 peter_12_, but what I was describing ceased to be a guarantee as soon as I introduced the weasel-word `generally'. 01:28:40 This seems to clarify the intent: http://lists.r6rs.org/pipermail/r6rs-discuss/2008-February/003478.html 01:29:01 So, these patterns are not allowed. 01:29:59 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 01:30:12 Riastradh: yes that is what the C99 standard says, but it doesn't say anything about the alignment of the returned pointer with respect to the actual address. It just says it is aligned so that any object can be stored at that address. 01:30:22 peter_12_: you can rely on malloc() to do that on pretty much any system.. and this isn't going to change any time soon. 01:30:29 so there is no guarantee about the last two or three bits being zero. 01:31:15 sphex_: that maybe true but "it works" isn't my only interest. Standard compliance is also. 01:31:43 peter_12_: hrm.. there's an in-between you know 01:31:56 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-66-31-41-238.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 01:32:33 sphex_: a program requires only what a standard specifies or it requires more. I'd like to require only what the standard specifies. 01:32:39 for maximum portability 01:33:11 peter_12_, as I said: what I was describing ceased to be a guarantee as soon as I introduced the weasel-word `generally'. Implementations are certainly welcome to have extremely lenient alignment requirements, and in such implementations, Chibi-Scheme wouldn't work very well. 01:34:04 But I am not aware of any implementations in which malloc ever returns pointers whose two low-order bits are nonzero. 01:34:22 I'm not saying "well, it just works here and now.. for now, so it's good enough for me, because I don't care." I'm saying it works, everywhere, and forever. ok maybe not forever, but this won't be the first compability problem of your program for sure. who the hell would change that? there's no reason to and it would break everything. 01:37:09 c'mon peter_12_.. tag bits are cool, everyone's doing it! 01:37:11 afk 01:37:49 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:39:56 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 01:40:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 01:41:32 peter_12_: if it makes you feel better, the new gc makes the alignment guarantee explicit 01:42:15 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 01:42:39 "it from bit", it's alive and tagged! 01:45:30 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:34 Riastradh pasted "macros and quotation and run-time and compile-time cruft" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/82109 01:50:07 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:50:25 sphex_, what values does RESULT have in the respective packages? 01:50:31 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:50:45 *Riastradh* vanishes to dine. 01:52:21 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-6557.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:51 foof: it does make me feel better. So you ensure that the first struct is aligned with the last couple bits zero and that each struct size is a multiple of four? 01:57:59 Yeah, actually a multiple of 16 at the moment, so I could use 4 tag bits if I wanted. 02:01:49 pi31415 [n=chatzill@c-98-246-78-78.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:02:04 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:05 I am having trouble grokking the Y combinator after rereading chapter 9 of The Little Schemer. 02:06:14 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:00 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 02:07:04 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 02:07:34 Did you understand it better beforehand? :-P 02:08:20 no 02:16:01 In that case, I should read that chapter, since I know less of it than you do. 02:19:17 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 02:20:39 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:21:08 foof: are you keeping integers as immediates? 02:21:25 Yes, all integers will have immediate machine representations... 02:21:27 *Riastradh* hiccups. 02:22:09 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 02:24:29 peter_12_: the latest version also has experimental immediate floats 02:24:51 Immediate floats? 02:25:15 Yeah... on a 32-bit system the mantissa is reduced from 23 to 20 bits. 02:25:24 (significand, not mantissa) 02:35:32 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:40 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:40:48 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:29 Riastradh: your "will" makes it seem like you have an inside track on the future of Chibi 02:42:13 Yep. foof will do exactly what I said about integers. 02:43:08 foof: Well I guess you know who to ask if you ever are struggling with a decision. 02:43:12 I told him to over dinner, and threatened to assault him with the blancmange on the table if he didn't. 02:47:18 mmm, blancmange 02:48:45 peterwang [n=user@61.148.100.42] has joined #scheme 02:53:01 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176194079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:31 When playing these alignment games to take advantage of immediates, it must be important to ensure that the alignment is not wasteful for the actual structs. That is if the alignment of the structs means a lot of dead space between them then any storage savings of the immediate could be lost with the bloated structs. 02:56:23 yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1279778889.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 02:56:53 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:01:18 thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.27.132] has joined #scheme 03:01:57 Riastradh: You look on me with grave eyes where rapture / And April love of living burn confessed / The Gods are good! The world lies free to capture! / Life has no walls. Oh, take me to your breast! 03:03:23 TimMc: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/BTLS/sample.ps 03:04:27 Elly: I once knew a man from Nantucket... 03:05:11 foof: you did? Do tell! 03:06:37 chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.4.79] has joined #scheme 03:06:51 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.4.79] has left #scheme 03:07:25 I get annoyed at how some PDFs look blurry in the mac os PDF viewer 03:07:38 (both in preview and when embedded in safari) 03:08:22 Hmm. I encountered a problem like that up until Leopard, which got much better at displaying bitmapped fonts. 03:08:35 I guess in this case it's postscript 03:09:03 Riastradh: does that little schemer .ps that pi31415 linked to look good to you? 03:09:04 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@85.176.221.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:50 No, but, gosh, that's a really badly bitmapped font. 03:10:05 that's true 03:10:19 On the other hand, it looks better than it would have before Leopard. 03:10:36 I wonder how to exclude sites from a google search 03:11:14 pi31415: you still having trouble with the Y combinator? 03:11:24 copumpkin: yes 03:11:34 anything in particular about it? 03:11:53 -!- yome [n=guillaum@bas4-montreal28-1279778889.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:12:15 how it works. I tried evaluating it by hand but i get lost. 03:13:05 It may be more insightful to start with the U combinator, which is the really interesting idea: (U f) = (f f). 03:13:44 The Y combinator is merely some syntactic sugar over the U combinator to make the writing of recursive functions look simpler. 03:16:19 Riastradh: thank you for the clue 03:17:47 pi31415: it might help in general to take a peek at lambda calculus (even just the wikipedia page) as it's quite easy to get a feel for 03:18:34 There are several questions in chapter 9 that I still do not understand, but I think they would be difficult to discuss over IRC. 03:19:40 you could also follow oleg almighty's overview: http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/fixed-point-combinators.html although it might get a little heavy near the end 03:20:25 and there is http://www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/WhyOfY.pdf 03:22:31 sladegen: that looks very promising, I will read it now 03:22:40 U U 03:25:22 you can confuse one of lambdabot's plugins with that :) 03:42:35 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:42:44 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:42:59 I think I am getting closer to grokking it thanks to those links 03:45:37 :) 03:45:38 -!- Haiku [n=Haiku@113.Red-83-57-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 03:52:11 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:55:22 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-62-87-243-96.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:15 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-3-34.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 03:58:22 So the size of an integer implemented as an immediate, is limited by the size of a pointer. So for a computer with addresses of 16 bits then the maximum size of an integer in the Scheme interpreter will be way less than the minimum C long size. 03:59:20 I think there is no guaranteed minimum for a C pointer size though there is a guaranteed C long size. 03:59:40 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Client Quit] 04:02:12 I doubt whether foof intends for Chibi-Scheme ever to run on a machine with natural alignment and pointer size less than thirty-two bits. 04:05:05 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:48 Riastradh: I can imagine that is true. I'm just exploring this whole immediate business as much as I can. 04:07:00 it is interesting from both C and Scheme perspectives 04:08:07 R5RS doesn't seem to place limits on minimum acceptable ranges for integers. So even on a machine with 16 bit addresses, a R5RS Scheme could be written using immediates. 04:08:37 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 04:09:21 sjamaan, why do the pages at not have links to the source code or egg files? 04:13:51 peter_12_: I will implement bignums as a compile-time option. 04:14:35 Bignums are fun to implement. It's like a trip back to grade-school. 04:14:47 Unlike this stupid gc and its endless bugs :( 04:14:51 foof: so there would be a seamless transition from the immediates to bignums when the immediate overflows? 04:14:57 yes 04:15:12 If your GC has a lot of bugs it sounds as though you're trying to do something too complicated to begin with... 04:15:21 are bignum algorithms really the same as the grade school ones? 04:15:46 Slow ones are, peter_12_. Faster ones, particularly for big bignums, are a little bit hairier. 04:16:10 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 04:16:59 The GC is very simple, only 200 lines, including the conditionally compiled out conservative checks. 04:17:12 So why does it have bugs? 04:17:32 But if I run the entire test suite a few thousand times, it will segfault, but not if I use Boehm. 04:17:46 so it sounds like Chibi is going to grow to a non-tiny-sized scheme. 04:17:54 peter_12_: no! 04:18:42 well custom gc, bignumbs, and modules are a lot more then v0.1 had, wouldn't you say? 04:18:54 `Custom GC 04:19:21 `Custom GC' meaning 200 lines of C to implement a trivial stop & copy GC, rather than Boehm's gigantic bug? 04:19:21 peter_12_: the custom GC is as I said 200 lines of code - boehm is a 1MB tarball 04:19:49 Riastradh: No, it's mark&sweep, stop© is too hard because I have no way of tracing every Scheme object on the C stack. 04:19:51 very nice: http://use.perl.org/~Aristotle/journal/30896 04:20:14 OK. 04:20:15 *Riastradh* vanishes. 04:20:26 foof: I didn't see that you said it is 200 lines. I know Boehm is ridiculously large. 04:21:03 I think the Tiny Scheme GC is in the neighborhood of 200 lines. 04:21:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:24:12 what's the difference between a "stop & copy" GC and a "mark and sweep" GC? 04:26:16 synx: stop© separates the heap into two spaces. You allocate only in one space, then when it fills up, you copy all the reachable objects from that into the other space, and then switch and use that space for new allocations. 04:26:53 oh, thus freeing the old heap all as one block 04:27:01 yes 04:27:11 that requires an extra level of pointer indirection or analysis and mutation of the actual stack and heap pointers, doesn't it? 04:27:16 It's simple and has the advantage of compacting the heap, thus avoiding fragmentation entirely. On the other hand, it cuts your available memory in half. 04:28:15 could get really really inefficient if you have a lot of reachable objects. 04:28:28 mark&sweep marks all the reachable objects, then "sweeps" and frees the unreachable objects, adding them to the free list. 04:28:42 mark and sweep is inefficient if there are a lot of reachable blocks 04:30:02 It's also simple, but doesn't compact the heap, which could cause fragmentation, and requires traversing the free list on every allocation. 04:30:42 peter_12_: both are inefficient if there are a lot of reachable blocks - in both cases, you need to resize the heap when it gets too full 04:32:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:08 Now, the problem with any moving GC is any stack or memory locations in C code which point to Scheme variables need to be updated. This includes temporary registers which may get pushed onto the stack. I haven't thought of a good way to deal with this, though I'm open to suggestions. 04:34:40 So in the meantime, I'm stuck with a non-moving GC, which means mark&sweep. 04:34:58 I think generational mark and sweep isn't too bad for a lot of (long lived) thingies? 04:35:11 "generational" implies moving 04:35:29 foof: dont you 'lock' / pinned the pointers going to C land? 04:35:34 I thought it implied generations. 04:36:00 Yes, and generations imply moving objects from one generation to the next. 04:36:17 foof: Why "stuck" with mark and sweep? If Chibi is a toy then that isn't much of a problem. 04:36:28 If the generation is a list of pointers, you just move the pointer to the object not the object itself. 04:38:39 leppie: Chibi is meant to be used as an extension language. Fundamentally you're coming from C all the time. 04:39:09 but then you cant move those objects ever 04:39:26 leppie: Yes, that's my point :( 04:39:55 synx: OK, I'd have to think about that. For now I want to keep the GC simple anyway. 04:40:05 ok, but cant you tag those somehow, and not move them 04:41:08 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:41:08 or maybe wrap all pointer going to C, and have an extra level of indirection 04:43:33 Well don't worry about it foof. I wouldn't dare think about garbage collectors myself. 04:44:01 I've only been working on it for a week. Maybe I just need to take a break and clear my head. 04:46:45 I'm also job hunting and seriously stressed about that :( 04:47:06 incubot: echoing commands to devices in plan9 is the most straightforward way of interacting with the operating system since PRINT CHR$(4) 04:47:06 Error: unbound variable: echoing 04:47:23 Oh, you. 04:48:37 foof: you have just to show employers your vast array of Scheme code; that should get you a job at any Mr Donut in Tokyo 04:48:50 Or Nara, even 04:51:26 Yeah, it's a shame, recruiters and HR and people who only know one programming language all think that specific programming language experience matters. 04:51:40 tell me about it 04:52:22 I showed employers my vast array of code once. Officially it was declared an ergot outbreak. 04:52:23 And by my resume, that makes me a Perl programmer :( 04:53:06 easiest way is to get in somewhere for Perl and then branch out 04:53:47 mgodshall [n=robozni@pool-71-173-175-194.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:54:01 ... unless your company is highly regimented 04:54:28 I know C better and have more experience with C - it's just not "work" experience. 04:54:58 *foof* curses the stupidity of people who have power over himself 04:55:15 yep, that's how it works, unfortunately 04:55:23 Well, OK, some of the work experience is with C, but not C++ which is all that people hire for. 04:56:46 drdo [n=psykon@93.102.72.46.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #scheme 04:57:06 you have to get hired somewhere on the strength of your resume, wait for something to break that is written in C++, fix it, and then voila, C++ work experience 04:57:37 foof: job hunting? are you finished grad school? 04:57:38 Oh, joy, and then I can program in C++ :/ 04:57:46 peter_12_: finishing my master's 04:57:49 (maybe) 04:57:57 congratulations 04:57:59 (maybe) 04:59:10 Well, unless you're one of maybe two guys here, you're not going to get a job programming in Scheme--at least not above the radar. :) 04:59:26 Jobs are like cable television. 04:59:41 something serious has to be done about this "no jobs for scheme" business 04:59:44 seems rediculous 04:59:45 Over 200 channels, all run by the same guy. 05:00:02 And HD is $8/month extra 05:00:10 Is it any wonder that it seems like only 1 channel full of crap? 05:00:31 professors can program in Scheme for a job, I suppose. 05:00:56 foof: are you just waiting to hear back on your defense? 05:01:12 peter_12_: don't antagonize the man 05:01:39 incubot: let's talk about progv 05:01:42 it's progv that has the rotten teeth 05:02:10 I didn't mean to bring up any sore issues 05:02:12 When I apply for jobs, first I'm talking to the tallest dwarf, then I'm talking to the shortest giant. It all goes back to the same damn guy. 05:02:59 synx: and to think, all that time and money spent on a degree so you can become a mascot at Disneyworld 05:03:06 And he only wants one thing. 05:04:21 zbigniew: I don't have a degree. I hear what you mean though. 05:04:46 synx: oh, not so bad then. 05:05:03 incubot: some of my best friends are costumed characters 05:05:06 Costumed party? 05:05:22 Don't mind if I do. 05:06:49 zbigniew: You know that loser outside of Liberty Tax dancing around in a Statue of Liberty costume at the cars passing by? That's the best mascot job I could get. 05:08:59 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:13:27 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:30 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-5-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:04 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-253-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 05:15:44 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:37 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.27.132] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:41:23 -!- peterwang [n=user@61.148.100.42] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:41:46 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:52 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.167.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:42:13 peterwang [n=user@61.148.100.42] has joined #scheme 05:42:56 -!- peterwang [n=user@61.148.100.42] has left #scheme 05:44:19 george_ [n=george@189.107.167.96] has joined #scheme 05:45:31 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:57:09 -!- pi31415 [n=chatzill@c-98-246-78-78.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060214]"] 06:03:53 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:04:48 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:17:51 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:19:45 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:24:22 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 06:24:51 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has joined #scheme 06:33:12 ASau [n=user@host119-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 06:46:15 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:48:25 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:27 -!- raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f0e882694fef0c77] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:53:11 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.185.125] has joined #scheme 06:55:52 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 07:12:23 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:19:53 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 07:25:41 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:28:02 wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 07:32:43 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 07:35:37 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:39:24 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051084244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:39:47 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.126.126] has joined #scheme 07:40:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.126.126] has quit [Client Quit] 07:43:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 07:44:14 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:52:36 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@89.146.185.125] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:56:23 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-250-177.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 08:01:27 Oh, hey, the bug turns up in Boehm too, which means it's not my GC! :) 08:01:51 ... although it's still a bug... 08:02:09 Is this the bug we discussed, foof, about knowing the top of stack? Or a new bug? 08:04:09 A new bug. Or possibly old bug. I had formerly been assuming if it passes the test suite all is well, but to test the GC I've been running the whole test suite hundreds of times (calling load in a loop) and right now sometime after 400 iterations an invalid object is being created somewhere. 08:06:09 :-/ 08:09:41 Hmmm... when writing 08:09:44 ((sexp)obj)->value.pair.cdr->value.pair.car->value.pair.cdr->value.pair.cdr->value.pair.car->value.pair.cdr->value.pair 08:09:59 gives {car = 0xd0, cdr = 0xe} 08:10:30 cdr is the null pointer, but that car gets treated as a pointer, and it points to invalid memory 08:10:45 s/null pointer/null object/ 08:17:50 Debugging that kind of thing is never much fun 08:17:57 Valgrind can sometimes help, but sometimes not 08:18:16 If something is dropping values into memory at random addresses, valgrind will notice it writing to unused memory and tell you the source of the problem. 08:19:00 hmmm 08:23:34 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:58 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:32:39 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:34:45 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:35:26 oh, nm, it _is_ a bug in the gc, that makes more sense 08:35:34 boehm runs fine 08:36:39 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 08:38:09 eaz [n=kvirc@d86-32-58-109.cust.tele2.at] has joined #scheme 08:38:54 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 08:43:45 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:43:49 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:44:19 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:46:51 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-105-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 08:48:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:50:50 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 08:51:19 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 08:51:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:34 Yay, the new GC is stable! \o/ 08:51:46 And with better mmemory usage than Boehm :) 08:51:59 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 08:52:27 -!- eaz [n=kvirc@d86-32-58-109.cust.tele2.at] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 08:58:39 very nice foof. What kind of GC did you implement? 08:58:53 precise mark&sweep 08:59:22 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:59:42 I read about an elegant GC via Mark Baker that was very low-cost but relied on there being no mutation 09:00:03 It ordered objects by creation time, by linking them into a linked list pointing back in time and tracking the head, so all new allocs went on the head of this list 09:00:16 And it then used the invariant that pointers could only point to older objects 'down' the list due to the lack of mutation 09:00:37 So no circular data-structures allowed... 09:00:52 So the GC could just walk down the list, checking the mark on the object, marking all referenced objects and moving on if the object is marked, or freeing the object if not 09:01:12 This could be done incrementaly (just do a few on every allocation, where the value of 'a few' can depend on the current level of free memory, etc) 09:01:45 You could also restart the scan from the top before getting all the way to the bottom sometimes, in order to scan the newer objects more often, to implement a generational scheme 09:01:54 So it had various elegant properties 09:01:59 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 09:02:12 But couldn't handle circularity, as you say; all pointers had to point back in time. 09:02:28 alaricsp: You're probably talking about Henry Baker. 09:02:49 Yeah, not Mark Baker, you're right. I am merging Henry Baker with Mark and Sweep, as my brain is stoopid. 09:03:19 IIRC, what you're talking about is Linear Lisp, or something like that. 09:03:19 *foof* heard about an even more elegant GC by Henry Sweep 09:03:35 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:36 So I got myself wondering about merging that (as most data is never mutated) with a separate arena for mutable data 09:03:42 (Something like "Look ma, no GC" or some other similar name.) 09:03:49 Nah, Linear Lisp was about using uniqueness typign to avoid GC at all 09:04:33 http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html 09:04:50 Not that one 09:05:09 *alaricsp* goes looking 09:05:45 Yes, there are several other GC-related things that he did that are very known. 09:05:52 As a C extension language, Chibi can't get too creative with the GC. I'll make up for it with my compiler :) 09:06:20 Right -- I was about to add that the likelyhood that something like foof's project will benefit from these things is very slim. 09:07:08 (and since the only thing the compiler lacks is a GC, this is good practice) 09:09:23 Gah, I cannot find this paper 09:09:33 Perhaps it wasn't Henry Baker (or Mark Baker or Henry Sweep...) 09:09:35 foof: If your *main* goal is to have it interact with C, then the simple mark+sweep will be hard to replace. Just like copying the stack for call/cc 09:09:51 alaricsp: Did you look at http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ ? 09:10:00 Yep 09:11:56 Got it: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.42.7791 Not HB at all, I was confused. 09:11:58 eli: Yeah, but the compiler is completely unrelated, and I have no particular interest in making it easy to interact with C. 09:12:54 gotta run, bbl 09:13:00 Yeah, they talk a bit at the end about how to deal with 'forward pointers', but don't really present a satisfactory solution; yet I feel one should be findable. 09:13:13 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:13:20 I toyed with a hybrid scheme as a kid, where you have a set of mutable cells stored somewhere else in memory 09:13:23 Forwarding pointers with mark and sweep? 09:13:56 You do a full scan of the heap without freeing to find which mutable cells are used, then you can mark the referenced objects in the heap and do a second scan with freeing, etc. 09:14:13 I think that may be isomorphic to what you mean by 'forwarding pointers with mark and sweep', yes :-) 09:16:17 I just saw the title in the page you linked to. 09:21:07 It's an interesting algorithm, for its simplicity 09:22:44 -!- wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:06 wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:25:42 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051084244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 09:28:51 moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 09:29:09 -!- drdo [n=psykon@93.102.72.46.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:31:15 I guess it would work well with a uniqueness typing system, as unique objects can never be referred to by shared objects, so a heap of shared objects would only have backwards pointers, while the unique objects manage their own storage by virtue of explicit destruction, and serve as a root set into the heap. 09:32:05 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 09:36:50 Infamy|[AA]byte [n=cw@c-71-194-80-68.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:37:00 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:53:50 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:54:45 -!- curtisw [n=cw@c-71-194-80-68.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:50 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-160-97.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:56 pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 10:11:07 -!- wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:58 wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:16:43 -!- moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:17:18 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 10:18:25 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:27:01 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:35:23 kuribas [i=kristof@84.196.49.159] has joined #scheme 10:36:28 -!- wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:55 wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:39:36 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 10:45:39 moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 10:49:38 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 10:51:10 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:54:39 Any BSDers? 10:55:14 What sort of BSDers would you like? 10:55:28 We have some NetBSDers... 10:56:25 freebsd 10:57:17 Just wondering if it's easy to setup port forwarding at the firewall level as it is on linux. 11:14:29 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-105-78.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:28 cracki [n=cracki@44-120.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 11:23:18 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-15-92.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 11:36:20 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-160-97.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:46:24 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:48:14 sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ed1389da08768406] has joined #scheme 11:49:20 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 11:50:56 I think it's similar in FreeBSD as to NetBSD, in which case the answer should be 'yes' 11:52:34 eli: Try http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=ipnat&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+7.2-RELEASE&format=html 11:52:36 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/nq8lj9 11:52:47 You want an ipnat.conf with rdr rules in, I believe 11:54:08 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 11:55:59 -!- sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ed1389da08768406] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 12:01:16 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:07:24 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 12:09:17 <3 pf 12:09:35 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 12:10:32 alaricsp: Thanks, I'll pass it on. 12:10:48 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:10:56 (It's not my machine.) 12:14:58 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 12:15:46 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:17:42 -!- wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:10 wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:41:20 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:41:26 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 12:42:48 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:42:58 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:45:05 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 12:49:24 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 12:53:16 <3 pf too (to echo what XTL said). 12:53:32 pf? 12:53:44 foof: It's the OpenBSD packet filter, which has been ported to FreeBSD too. 12:53:52 woohoo 12:54:17 :-) 12:59:29 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@84.196.49.159] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:06:48 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 13:10:41 -!- wingo [n=wingo@ATuileries-153-1-13-190.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:20:30 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:21:45 rmorris [n=user@209.120.179.205] has joined #scheme 13:22:41 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 13:26:03 *metasyntax|work* <3 pf too 13:27:34 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 13:32:05 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:25 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:37:36 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:47:22 xwl [n=user@62.237.32.162] has joined #scheme 13:48:44 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:53:52 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 13:54:46 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:57:48 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:06 incubot: Is it true that if anything containing parentheses (or perhaps even square brackets) is addressed to you, you will try to execute it? 13:58:07 Error: unbound variable: Is 13:58:11 Apparently. 13:59:55 incubot: play dead! 13:59:59 how is it any more dead that Scheme? 14:00:12 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 14:00:30 datkin [n=datkin@digdug.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 14:00:39 incubot: dat dad is not Scheme. 14:00:46 Can scheme do variadic functions? 14:01:15 yes and no. 14:02:21 -!- moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:04:19 incubot: Malkovich 14:04:22 Malkovich? 14:04:32 incubot: Malkovich 14:04:35 Malkovich? 14:05:13 :-( 14:05:43 incubot: I expected you to say Malkovich Malkovich, like you did in /query. 14:05:46 Malkovich! Malkovich, Malkovich Malkovich; Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich, Malkovich. 14:06:10 Malkovich? 14:06:12 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:15 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 14:06:36 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-15-92.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:07:00 CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 14:11:21 langmart` [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 14:11:31 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:12:29 incubot: incubot incubot incubot incubot 14:13:35 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:16 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:18:41 sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-21cea8a96f2bc76b] has joined #scheme 14:27:09 -!- langmart` [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:29:29 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:29:32 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 14:31:29 chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.4.79] has joined #scheme 14:32:12 -!- pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:23 pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 14:38:01 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 14:38:27 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 14:41:17 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.4.79] has left #scheme 14:44:02 I think I figured it out: incubot only evaluates lines that match .*\(.*\).* 14:44:19 Haiku [n=Haiku@113.Red-83-57-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:46:45 incubot: "(" ) 14:46:45 Error: unexpected list terminator: #\) 14:52:41 buggarag` [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-94.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:54:06 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-75-165.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:54:16 -!- buggarag` is now known as buggarage 14:58:38 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:48 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-150.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:03:07 foof, mark & sweep cuts your available memory in half, too, if you're not lucky. You just don't pay up front for it. 15:03:34 true 15:06:26 exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.135.192] has joined #scheme 15:06:31 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-94.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:06:56 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051084244.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:07:39 So, do these GCs also implement reference counting, just to clear out the obvious stuff right away? 15:08:07 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:08:19 No, reference counting is just broken. 15:08:21 No, generally not. There is no value for a copying GC, and reference counting incurs considerable overhead. 15:10:40 Hm. I have actually been thinking of doing an experiment with one-bit reference counting for single-referent objects. Do you think that it would obviously be not beneficial? 15:11:02 Not for a copying GC, of course. 15:11:22 Mestoco [n=user@bbwirelessgw1-ff9ac300-154.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 15:11:50 Oh, right. I was thinking of doing the experiment for a mark & sweep GC. 15:12:50 It would really be useful only for a completely non-moving GC. I doubt whether it would do much good for a large area or an old area (in, say, a generational GC), since my wild, unsubstantiated hypothesis is that such objects -- large or old -- are likely to have more than one reference. 15:13:09 But if you try this, I'm curious to hear how it goes. 15:14:27 Yes, in particular what I wanted to try it with was a non-compacting mark & sweep with two fixed allocation sizes. 15:16:05 Three iron skull caps and the best one is +0 :/ 15:16:36 I think it's bad that my usual form of a release is a game that ends in death 9 times out of 10. 15:16:54 foof: Tetris is worse, then. 15:17:24 You get crushed against the ceiling eventually, every single time. :-( 15:17:45 pi31415 [n=chatzill@75-145-67-114-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:18:09 -!- sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-21cea8a96f2bc76b] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 15:18:42 Sure, but in Tetris there's no aspiration beyond that. Nethack can theoretically be won. 15:18:55 patch nethack to be transposed into the body of the killer upon death... fun never ends. 15:19:49 heh. That sounds like an interesting mechanism for a roguelike, actually. 15:19:50 Nothing fun about cheating. 15:20:01 Imagine having to find a way to get killed by stairs to move down a level. 15:20:48 argh... yeah, animate killer non-guaranteed ;( 15:21:44 but if you land the next level down and a chained ball kills you, then you go back up a level 15:21:46 *sladegen* turns into trap and starts waiting. 15:21:47 If you starve to death you turn into famine, poison turns you into pestilence, and other inanimate damage into death ;) 15:22:23 but to a random place to reduce the likelihood that it will recur 15:23:37 falling turns you into gravity... hah. i think kinks could be worked out and it would make for fun "world". 15:23:49 -!- Haiku [n=Haiku@113.Red-83-57-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 15:24:42 a vampire killed by a wooden sword should turn into a dust vortex 15:26:11 foof: Heh, yes. But if you attack something as famine, all your victim needs to do to kill you is to eat. 15:27:59 Huh. Whether you eat or not, you trade places. 15:30:31 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:31:39 player killing would be a problem. then it would need parallel universes in which both players won and lost. or they are both turned into schrodinger cats ;) 15:32:25 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [] 15:32:30 I'm still imagining this as a single player roguelike/angband 15:32:33 Urgh. Germany's legislature voted for internet censorship. 15:32:46 Haven't they been censoring the internet, or trying to, for a while now? 15:33:10 How?!?! 15:33:15 I don't think that they've had a legislated system in place, chandler. 15:33:36 A year or two ago they banned the mere possession of `hacking software and tools'. 15:33:51 "What do you need that for, dude?" 15:34:18 The greatest totalitarian power on the planet, China, can't censor the internet worth a green damn. 15:34:58 The problem isn't the technical shortcomings, foof. The problem is the intent and the precedent it sets. 15:37:36 Riastradh: I was thinking of their attempts to shut down neo-Nazi sites. 15:37:56 Oh, the irony. 15:37:57 ...and the weight it adds in everyone's minds -- particularly the minds of the legislatures of other countries -- to the reprehensible argument that child pornography is reason enough for a general censorship mandate. 15:38:25 -!- pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Success] 15:38:27 (And who knows what else it will seem reason enough for to these legislatures?) 15:38:32 Australia's system seems to mostly accomplish a degredation in the quality of internet service. 15:39:59 zitterbewegung [i=1807d43c@gateway/web/freenode/x-ca0628115d69342a] has joined #scheme 15:40:59 -!- xwl [n=user@62.237.32.162] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:17 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 15:42:17 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:24 First they came for the pedophiles, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a pedophile. 15:43:30 Then they came for the neo-nazis, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a neo-nazi. 15:43:35 Then they came for the people who couldn't tunnel through ssh, and I didn't speak up because I was busy playing nethack. 15:43:39 Then they came for me, and I suffered YASD. 15:44:11 Heh. 15:44:47 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:46:11 "Yet Another Scheme Distribution"? 15:46:26 Yet Another Stupid Death 15:46:54 It's a nethack thing 15:47:18 It's when you choke on an apple and die. 15:47:46 does anyone have R3RS in pdf format? It looks like installing LaTeX on my Mac will be 2.1 GB 15:47:50 *Maddas* personally seems to attract gnomes with wands of death 15:48:01 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:48:36 peter_12, I have a file named `R3RS.ps' lying about; I have put it up at . 15:49:08 Riastradh: thank you 15:49:12 peter_12: There is a lighter distribution of TeX that I typically use; it's a lot smaller than the large package. 15:49:15 See http://www.tug.org/mactex/morepackages.html 15:50:05 chandler: thanks. That is much more reasonable! 15:50:07 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #scheme 15:51:51 is there a nice way to extract certain lines from a source file into a LaTeX document? 15:52:52 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:25 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:54:21 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:51 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 15:56:43 peter_12: what lines from what source file? 15:57:02 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:03 hkBst: lines 12 to 15, for example 15:57:49 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 15:58:07 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:03:11 How portable are makefile conditionals? 16:03:33 You're trying to support non-GNU make? 16:03:49 That seems like an exercise in pain to me. 16:03:55 Hmmm... looks like the BSD make uses an entirely different syntax :/ 16:04:12 include source of gnumake in your tarball... 16:04:26 Is it common to run gmake on BSD systems? 16:04:38 Write a program to generate a build shell script from a GNU makefile :-) 16:04:52 Yes, because in my experience relatively common programs tend to require it. 16:05:44 That's what I thought. I know on Solaris you usually need to explicitly run gmake, not make. 16:06:56 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 16:07:17 Yes, and at one point I had the right syntax worked out to error on Sun's make but not on GNU make, using a syntax that GNU make will accept but Sun's wont. 16:10:34 is autoconf/make also tied to gnumake on non-gnu sytems? 16:11:27 if not, perhaps therein could be a solution. 16:12:48 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-120.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:12:53 No, autoconf is never the solution! 16:13:20 I will implement my own alternative before using autoconf. 16:14:50 autoconf can solve your problem, if your problem is "building/using my program is too easy and quick" 16:18:28 incubot: have you seen the charge of the nih, nih knights? 16:18:31 Knights of the Old Republic. 16:20:00 incubot: that old republic was grand and no banana at all. 16:20:03 You do know that there is no Federally owned parks and land in Texas? This dates from the Republic of Texas. Texas joined the Union to forgive the massive debts. :) 16:21:57 -!- ASau [n=user@host119-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 16:25:24 both autoconf and scons have frustrated me, but at least scons does not look like line noise 16:27:51 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:28:26 langmart` [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 16:29:21 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:23 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:30:33 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:28 -!- langmart` [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:30 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:35:43 incubot: I love you 16:35:46 -!- zitterbewegung is now known as r2q2 16:35:46 wow, heavy rain. I love it 16:36:42 nijh2s [n=ngxy@p1035-ipbfp1703fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:37:05 autoconf encourages people to avoid binary compatibility. On the same version of the same distribution of the same operating system, the program could still break thanks to autofail. 16:38:27 -!- nijh2s [n=ngxy@p1035-ipbfp1703fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 16:39:03 really the biggest problem is that runtime linking is still too slow. But the autotools suite doesn't help matters. 16:39:39 If I have to see my build process freeze for 10s on "Checking maximum size of command line arguments" one more time... 16:40:03 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:12 synx: hehehe 16:42:31 I like how a lot of the things autoconf does are basically brute force searches until failure 16:42:44 foof, on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD, `make' is (some flavour of) BSD make, and GNU make isn't included in the base system. 16:43:23 I don't *think* it's possible to write usefully polyglot makefiles 16:43:34 (as in ones that do different things under bsd and gnu makes) 16:43:40 That said, actually writing makefiles for ordinary C programs with BSD make is much nicer than using GNU make and autofools. 16:43:45 polyglot...? 16:44:01 makefiles that are valid in both BSD and GNU make 16:44:16 Riastradh: I prefer gnu make without autotools :) 16:44:28 but generating makefiles based on available version of make would be a solution. 16:44:31 The (syntactic) intersection between GNU make and BSD make is not much different from POSIX make. 16:44:37 I write "makefiles" to build my project. Discovering what kind of system it's being compiled on is something I want to minimize. 16:44:57 It's like a function that only works if you define certain global variables. Just not clean coding. 16:45:24 I tend to write gnu makefiles under the assumption that P(user has gnu make) > P(user has bsd make) 16:46:17 I've always written POSIX makefiles with the assumption that the user can edit it himself as needed. 16:46:55 Elly|spare [n=_@128.237.246.233] has joined #scheme 16:46:56 I was thinking of making things a little more automatic. 16:46:58 I don't think I'm the only one who finds absurd the nesting of languages and generated files to convey innumerably many choices and decisions at compile-time when there really isn't much interesting information stored in those files at all, for many, many programs. 16:47:05 Hm... my server appears to have vanished. 16:47:11 ... though Plan 9 will always have a separate mkfile. 16:47:31 enter non-POSIX systems... 16:47:37 Here, for example, is a common setup: A collection of C files to be compiled and linked together, against some libraries, to form an executable. 16:47:51 Riastradh: that's why I avoid both autoconf and configure. For the differences I *actually* care about, I tend to have a file called 'config.mk' with variables for the user to set. 16:48:55 Chicken requires you to run "make PLATFORM=foo", and conditionally (and portably) includes the necessary rules for the platform accordingly. 16:49:39 Using gmake, I can determine the PLATFORM automatically. 16:49:40 Hm. This is really rather disconcerting. 16:50:17 It took me three lines to describe that in English, according to my irssi window; in BSD make, it takes three lines to describe that also: SRCS= foo.c bar.c baz.c; PROG= fnord; .include 16:50:36 foof, conditional? Include? And portable, all in the same sentence about make? 16:51:07 Riastradh: in gnu make it's four lines, which is hardly worse 16:51:25 BSD make doesn't allow "make -f " ? 16:52:51 Elly|spare, so why is it that most makefiles I find written with GNU make have a dozen or two lines of boilerplate at the top, and half a dozen rules written? 16:53:16 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 16:53:45 because they are dumb? 16:54:21 actually, I guess it's 5 lines :P 16:54:54 but: PROG = foo ; SRCS = foo.c bar.c baz.c ; OBJS = $(patsubst %.c,%.o,$(SRCS)) ; $(PROG) : $(OBJS) \n\t $(CC) -o $(PROG) $(OBJS) ... libs go here ... 16:55:21 One thing that bugs me is if my program depends on X, and X depends on Y,Z,Q, and B, instead of just checking for the existence of X, stuff like autotools goes laborously through Y,Z,Q and B every time, even stuff that would never change unless you completely replaced the machine. 16:55:23 Why did you have to write anything about $(CC), pattern substitution, and an explicit rule? 16:55:57 because gnu make doesn't ship with something like bsd.prog.mk by default 16:56:14 Riastradh: SRCS and PROG are magic variables? 16:56:17 In scons it's: Program("foo",["foo.c","bar.c","baz.c"]) 16:56:31 foof, really, they're parameters to bsd.prog.mk. 16:56:31 Oh yeah, that's better :/ 16:56:47 foof, also, yes, BSD make accepts `-f'; I think that's POSIX. 16:56:47 What if you have multiple programs? 16:56:54 Multiple makefiles. 16:56:57 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:02 (one directory and makefile for each program) 16:57:07 sigh... my ISP has a routing loop again 16:57:12 it cannot be that hard to avoid these 16:59:10 Riastradh: you could, of course, write something like bsd.prog.mk and include it with every program you write :P 16:59:58 it would be the last three lines of the code I gave above, at which point your standard makefile is basically identical to the bsd one 17:00:26 The merit of BSD make is not the flavour of the make language (they're all rotten languages, POSIX make, GNU make, BSD make, &c.) but the design whereby one describes concisely and declaratively the information that is actually relevant to one's program. By `declaratively' here, I mean that generally (for most Unix programs) one need not write rules with lists of commands for most cases. 17:00:37 Riastradh: OK, then although the Chicken makefile has some GNUisms, the basic idea of dispatching on PLATFORM=... is sound. Whether that's more convenient or not than manually writing "make -f"... 17:02:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:48 -!- Elly [n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:02:58 *Elly|spare* shakes her fist at her ISP 17:03:00 foof, some GNUisms? That's a GNU makefile in Chicken. 17:03:25 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:30 It won't run in any non-GNU make (of which I am aware). 17:03:39 *Elly|spare* fails over 17:03:40 -!- Elly|spare is now known as Elly 17:04:05 Yes, because of the GNUisms. 17:06:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-60.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:06:11 Hah! One of my friends at google just pointed out http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=marriage+equality to me :) 17:07:12 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:23 Bleh, I'll battle with make portability when I'm awake. 17:07:29 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 17:07:40 what about it Elly? 17:07:45 foof: do you have an opinion about scons? 17:07:54 I'll release chibi 0.2 tomorrow. 17:08:04 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.70.42] has joined #scheme 17:08:05 Oh I see 17:08:08 soupdragon: note the colors of the bar immediately above "Results 1 - 10..." 17:08:09 :) 17:08:12 pi31415: Never looked at it seriously. 17:08:27 no such luck with lambda :p 17:08:51 Oh wait, scons was part of that competition, I remember looking at it. 17:09:02 I read a forum post that said the Python folks wanted to get rid of their lambda. Sounded like a crazy rumour to me. 17:09:02 (Something JavaScripty, Elly? I don't see anything in particular there...) 17:09:20 No, Riastradh. Look at the divider bar. 17:09:40 specifically the color scheme thereof :) 17:10:30 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:43 ? 17:11:08 Odd. 17:11:21 mine has it 17:11:25 Riastradh's not 17:11:39 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:11:46 Riastradh: what is so interesting about that screen shot? 17:11:50 Something limited to...Pennsylvania and South Africa, but not Massachusetts? 17:12:01 I see this: http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~elly1/foo.png 17:12:03 pi31415, well, it's what's absent from it that is apparently interesting. 17:12:07 What, the rainbow divider? 17:12:27 Is this some kind of `Magic Eye' thing?! 17:12:34 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 17:13:01 It is done with a table cell and some CSS, perhaps your browser doesn't support it (possibly deliberately). 17:13:52 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:14:43 I remember when Microsoft did the color bar thing. 17:15:17 Riastradh: http://3e8.org/pub/foutu.png 17:15:30 with hotmail passport .net liveid whatnot 17:16:49 Oh, I missed Elly's pic. Egg on face. 17:17:09 Evidently you people are OSX users. I'm not sure how to feel about this :P 17:17:47 *pi31415* uses Linux 17:18:00 *Elly* does too 17:18:19 Elly: looks like you need to turn font hinting off (as antialiasing is disabled) 17:18:41 zbigniew: how does one do that? 17:18:55 (I have antialiasing disabled on purpose) 17:19:35 install corefonts? 17:19:44 already installed 17:19:45 i cant use anything with non-aliased fonts 17:19:50 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 17:19:56 *sladegen* uses firefox on linux and don't see rainbow. 17:20:59 which firefox? 17:21:07 or maybe it needs to be -on-; I can't remember as I stopped dealing with linux font stuff a while ago; I'm pretty sure the wrong setting causes the jankiness though 17:21:18 zbigniew: I rather like the hard-edged look 17:21:26 I tried antialiasing on and it made all the fonts look vaguely blurry 17:22:06 I think if the sentence contains both `Linux' and `font', zbigniew, it's a lost cause. 17:22:27 Riastradh: have you not yet experienced the sublime pleasure that is xfontsel and all its minions? :) 17:23:21 I have still not found an Emacs that can render fonts correctly :( 17:23:33 like Elly said, blurry 17:23:40 Elly: that's not what I mean (I think); fonts can be non-aliased and still be composed of straight lines 17:23:58 your fonts look like all jingle-jangle, like mr. tambourine man 17:24:04 Elly: it might be that you are not using true type core fonts in your browser... and in-software-antialiasing bitmap fonts will blurry-suck always. anyway. 17:24:08 mmm, jingle-jangle 17:25:08 you probably need to adjust your font alising sub order (or something like that, it's in Gnome I know) 17:25:33 my desire to perturb this is not great 17:25:42 it currently works as I would like it to 17:26:25 Yes, but our desire to perturb your setup is very strong, for your fonts in the screenshot were highly offensive to our eyes. 17:26:26 *sladegen* wonders how many #scheme locals use slackware... 17:26:33 Elly: actually I wonder, are you using e.g. TrueType Arial or Adobe type 1 Helvetica? I recall, a long long time ago when the type 1 screen fonts were the norm, the screen fonts were ridiculously unreadable 17:26:39 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:26:41 *Elly* uses gentoo :P 17:26:43 sladegen: i used to have it 17:26:59 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 17:27:20 i mean slackware-to-death maniacs. 17:27:51 I don't think there are many folks here who are maniacal about putting Slackware to death, but I guess I don't know everyone very well... 17:28:10 I am not that attached to any particular distribution. I have a gentoo machine (namely this one), two debian machines, and a dragonfly BSD machine 17:28:53 ha ha ha 17:29:54 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:30:48 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:52 amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 17:34:05 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/session] has joined #scheme 17:35:46 sladegen: i love slackware 17:36:08 Slackware still exists? How nostalgic. 17:36:18 moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 17:36:24 my first time was with slackware 17:36:39 slackware64 was recently made public 17:37:15 zbigniew: mine was with suse in 98 17:37:44 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.135.192] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:37:45 mine was with unifix in late '96 17:37:53 my windows drive blew up, and I didnt have the windows CD, and I just wanted to listen to music, so I installed that :p 17:38:16 was fun getting the sound blaster 16 working 17:38:54 compiling the kernel took less than 5 minutes on a P150 17:39:55 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:40:19 My first time was with a girl. 17:40:32 blasphemer 17:40:49 i tried too, but she wouldnt let me touch her bootsector 17:40:55 Lol! 17:41:27 leppie: probably for the best, owing to the bootsector virus 17:41:45 OMG it was GPL!?? 17:41:47 :p 17:42:17 like you can use it, but have to tell everyone 17:50:10 -!- Elly is now known as Elly|spare 17:50:35 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 17:52:09 Elly [n=elly@198-144-37-142.static.vdsl.nidhog.net] has joined #scheme 17:52:15 much better! 17:52:19 -!- Elly|spare [n=_@128.237.246.233] has quit ["gone"] 17:56:29 -!- amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has left #scheme 18:01:25 lolcow [n=lolcow@dsl-243-41-58.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:02:04 leppie: I was thinking more HPV than GPL, but that works 18:02:04 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-41-58.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:14 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 18:13:29 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:15:13 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:23 Huh linux font question? 18:17:34 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:17:37 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:18:28 yes, we're having some late 90s reminiscence 18:20:24 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-219-158.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 18:21:43 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:21:48 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 18:23:32 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:31:05 -!- Infamy|[AA]byte is now known as curtisw 18:32:23 -!- moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit ["leaving"] 18:32:46 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 18:35:19 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:36:30 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:12 lowlycod1r [n=x@DNab438946.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:50:17 -!- lowlycod1r 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[n=bombshel@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:08:34 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-30-94.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 23:10:32 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 23:18:56 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:27:56 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 23:31:11 npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 23:31:17 any good pointers / tutorials / books on music synthesis in scheme? 23:35:52 AtnNn [n=welcome@MTRLPQ02-1279391716.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 23:35:52 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@MTRLPQ02-1279391716.sdsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:43 Hasn't common lisp music moved over to a dialect of scheme in the recent years? 23:38:33 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:51:02 -!- pi31415 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