00:11:09 -!- CSdread__ is now known as CSdread_ 00:14:10 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-53.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:15:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-74.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:16:31 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:25:51 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:26:08 FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@89.146.163.119] has joined #scheme 00:38:48 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-3-210.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:57 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-3-210.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 00:39:26 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:15 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:31 arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.112.2] has joined #scheme 00:41:37 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 00:43:56 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-2262.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:54 hi 00:45:18 I want recommendations about Scheme books. I already have The * Schemer (3) 00:45:43 don't want to buy SICP, because I already has it printed 00:47:15 my recommendation is read less play more 00:47:28 synx: thanks. that one really pleases me 00:47:40 ^.^ 00:48:13 seriously though, there's um... there's one I've heard of it's on the tip of my tongue... 00:48:33 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:49:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:34 arthurmaciel: http://www.htdp.org/ 00:52:06 eli was recommending that one. He said it's slower and less sophisticated that SICP, but has less of the mentally damaging exercises. 00:52:28 I've only skimmed through SICP though. 00:53:19 If you take SICP the wrong way, then I'd say the exercises could be damaging, but if you take them the right way, they are "more pain more gain." 00:53:48 arthurmaciel: You may want to get a good reference/textbook like TSPL (The Scheme Programming Language), which has some nice examples. 00:53:50 sykopomp` [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #scheme 00:54:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/81960#2 00:54:07 is that portable across schemes? 00:54:17 artheurmaciel: Other than that, I think you have enough books, I agree that you should write more code. 00:54:57 What the ... 00:55:15 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:21 the second paste :) 00:55:24 sykopomp`: If you're talking about the #2 with the defstruct and multiple-value-bind, &c. then almost certainly not. 00:55:24 -!- sykopomp` is now known as sykopomp 00:55:43 sykopomp: As in, I don't even think that is Scheme in the normal sense of the word. 00:55:51 no, the 1st and 3rd are common lisp. 00:55:59 Oh, okay! 00:56:00 I'm asking about the middle one, which is valid PLT. 00:56:00 Hehe. 00:56:03 hehehe :P 00:57:09 sykopomp: No, it's still not portable, because most time functions in the implementations aren't really well shared. However, if you make sure that the time functions are available, then, you need to figure out how to define PRINT and then you're fine. 00:57:25 yikes. 00:57:27 alright, thanks. 00:57:45 So...it shouldn't be hard to make work in most Schemes, but PRINT isn't standard, and while those are standard time functions, not all Schemes have them, so you may have to make sure of that. 00:58:03 *nod* 00:58:51 sykopomp: I don't think you are in too much trouble with the code in #2, but I wouldn't use PRINT. 00:58:53 arcfide: thanks, too. I'm intending to study Cormen's Introduction to Algorithms, implementing the examples with Scheme. 00:59:56 arcfide: than after that learn CL and read Norvig PAIP and try to implement the examples with Scheme too. What do you think about it? dumb? 01:00:20 arthurmaciel: Depends on what you want to do, I suppose. Implementing lot's of code in Scheme is usually good for you. 01:00:39 arthurmaciel: sounds like a plan. PAIP, though, is really mostly a Common Lisp book. 01:00:55 I don't know how much you'll get out of implementing its stuff in scheme. 01:01:54 The Cormen book is a good one to do because most of the examples in the copy I have are a very imperative style, meaning that you are going to have to work pretty hard to understand how to implement the same algorithms efficiently in a more functional style and make things easier to read. 01:02:09 On the other hand, if you just want to directly translate the code without any thought, that's also possible, and that means that you won't get much out of it, either. 01:03:12 even if you're only using let, and still modifying places, it's a challenge to port cormen's algorithms. 01:04:25 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has left #scheme 01:04:45 arcfide and sykopomp: I intend to do the functional way. The PAIP is because I want to learn AI and I really do like Scheme. Don't know if it is as useful as CL for this purpose. What do you think? 01:05:33 arthurmaciel: You're in a #scheme channel, of course we are going to be inclined towards a favorable application of Scheme to A.I. 01:06:16 Scheme is a viable language for doing A.I. work, and there are some examples of its use out there. 01:06:18 arcfide: but why I don't find much code for AI using Scheme?? 01:06:19 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-76-112-68-228.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:06:35 Deformative [n=joe@c-76-112-68-228.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:06:37 arcfide: oh, ok. But for sure it is not as used as CL, right? 01:07:18 arthurmaciel: Well, what do you want, lot's of code already written? If you are judging a language by the amount of code written for it, you probably aren't going to see most of the Scheme code that is written, and you're probably going to see a lot more C or Java. 01:08:10 I would pay less attention to who has written what in what, as to, what is going to provide you with the best platform for expressing your ideas and doing your work. 01:09:00 arcfide: no, that's not the point. It just seems to me that people prefer CL for some intrinsic language quality. Just an impression, expressed on a 'observational' way. 01:09:17 s/for/because/ 01:09:40 arthurmaciel: I wouldn't say that. No more than the rest of the world programs in such and such primarily for its linguistic niceties. 01:10:22 arthurmaciel: CL grew out of a lot of Lisp systems which were in use at the time for heavy A.I. work, and thus, people already had their stuff written for it, and extending that was easier to do with CL. 01:10:53 Now though, there is so much written in all sorts of languages, I wouldn't worry about that. Choose the one you prefer to program in. 01:11:25 If you want an example of an A.I. program written in Scheme, check out: > 01:11:48 arcfide: you really relieves me. I do like Scheme! 01:12:55 arthurmaciel: Don't be afraid to use the language you like, just be realistic about what you need and whether you are ready to write what you want (and all that entails) in the language you enjoy. 01:13:19 arcfide: and this thesis has much to do with what I plan to deal with on future (Theory of Mind, intelligence, cognition, thoughts, perception and other stuff) 01:13:22 You may find the above link interesting because I think it derives partially from copycat, which is CL, and it is Scheme. 01:13:25 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 01:13:47 Anyways, I have to leave now, but I hope that puts you in the right direction. 01:14:29 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:44 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-53.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:36 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:31 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:34:29 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.100.112.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:35:17 raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f61355bbf29c49af] has joined #scheme 01:37:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e6564d440128540b] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:42:48 mhoran_ [n=mhoran@2607:f2f8:500:0:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 01:42:48 -!- mhoran [n=mhoran@2607:f2f8:500:0:0:0:0:2] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:01 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-119-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:01 underspecified [n=underspe@leopard175.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:01:24 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:50 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:02:22 kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.194.196] has joined #scheme 02:03:28 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 02:11:59 wy_ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:30:50 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:26 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:06 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:39:20 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:26 -!- wy_ [n=wy@c-24-16-38-23.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:01 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218165.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:58:53 -!- mhoran_ [n=mhoran@2607:f2f8:500:0:0:0:0:2] has quit ["leaving"] 03:03:07 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:07:39 jonrafkind [n=jon@lre-west-4-42.usahousing.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 03:09:07 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176216021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:54 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:55 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:23:42 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:01 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:30:36 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:40 elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 03:31:55 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:42:31 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:42:36 sladegen_ [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:44:38 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:55:40 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:56:37 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-3-210.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:35 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-62-87-243-96.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 04:00:02 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:00:32 foof: what is the "bc" in a sexp context? 04:01:38 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@122.110.5.33] has joined #scheme 04:02:17 nevermind 04:08:34 -!- sladegen_ is now known as sladegen 04:09:50 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:36 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:58 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@114.73.10.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:47 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:26:23 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:57 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:33:29 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:34:59 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:03 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:35:29 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:09 -!- kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.194.196] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:36:32 dlt_ [n=dlt@189.101.51.224] has joined #scheme 04:37:32 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:09 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:46 -!- bweaver [n=user@68.60.0.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:02 ikaros [n=ikaros@e179084024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:54:21 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foobar"] 04:55:27 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:04:05 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has joined #scheme 05:09:49 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:12:45 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 05:40:46 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:46:45 foof [n=user@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:49:45 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 05:50:09 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:53:11 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 05:55:37 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@e179084024.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 05:57:13 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 06:14:08 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:17:07 -!- npe [n=npe@94-224-251-223.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 06:19:34 underspecified_ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-218.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:24:14 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@lre-west-4-42.usahousing.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:31:47 has anyone successfully compiled scheme48 under 64bit gnu/linux? 06:32:16 c/unix/socket.c: In function gethostbyname_thread: 06:32:17 c/unix/socket.c:354: error: struct hostent has no member named h_addr 06:32:17 c/unix/socket.c: In function s48_get_host_by_name: 06:32:17 c/unix/socket.c:385: error: struct hostent has no member named h_addr 06:33:22 ecraven, scheme48 compiles fine here 06:35:24 ecraven, you mjust compile with -D_GNU_SOURCE if you don't use the newest development sources 06:35:51 yes, just noticed that ;) 06:36:11 great, seems to work :) 06:36:55 http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.scheme.scheme48/2008-07/msg00004.html 06:36:57 for reference 06:41:38 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:43:40 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:46:16 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:02:38 ejs [n=eugen@95.135.94.254] has joined #scheme 07:10:55 underspecified__ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-218.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:11:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@95.135.94.254] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:11:56 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-218.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:50 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:02 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 07:37:00 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:59 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:03:42 -!- underspecified__ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-218.naist.jp] has quit [] 08:06:40 barney [n=bernhard@p549A19AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:07:05 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:15:40 -!- m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [""If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will] 08:17:11 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:18:39 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:12 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:19:32 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@189.101.51.224] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:56 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:22:45 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 08:23:06 rwl4 [n=rwl4@c-71-231-140-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:23:07 -!- rwl4 [n=rwl4@c-71-231-140-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:09 rwl4 [n=rwl4@c-71-231-140-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:27:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:28:23 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:29:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:52 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:35:32 Hiato [n=Hiato@dsl-245-14-154.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:36:35 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 08:37:12 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:40 chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.64.199] has joined #scheme 08:57:51 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.64.199] has quit [Client Quit] 08:58:22 ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 08:58:37 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:00:06 -!- Hiato [n=Hiato@dsl-245-14-154.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:06:44 -!- rwl4 [n=rwl4@c-71-231-140-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:11 -!- ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:24 ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 09:09:23 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["b"] 09:09:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 09:13:45 foof` [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 09:16:37 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-53.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:17:51 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 09:19:30 ikaros [n=ikaros@92.228.86.161] has joined #scheme 09:20:07 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:22:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 09:25:06 -!- foof [n=user@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:41 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:19 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:34:09 underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 09:36:55 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:21 -!- foof` is now known as foof 09:53:57 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 09:55:16 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:59:31 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:11:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:14:41 sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-35e388f5e3924a19] has joined #scheme 10:22:13 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A19AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:22:13 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A19AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:15 Arafangion [n=arafangi@220-244-46-25.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 10:29:23 What's the difference between the various lisps? (I'm sure this has been debated to death, so please only give me useful references that discuss the differences). That is, differences in scoping rules, ObjectOrientation, type safety, and so on. I do NOT care about differences in libraries. 10:29:51 *Arafangion* should probably also mention that although he believes he knows of Lisp, he does not fully understand it and has yet to actually write a lisp program. 10:29:54 thesnowdog_ [i=thesnowd@114.73.11.98] has joined #scheme 10:31:27 And where can I find a copy of SICP that is in a single html page? 10:32:42 cracki [n=cracki@47-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 10:32:44 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-229.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 10:44:14 *Arafangion* is particularly interested in scoping and typing rules 10:44:59 elias` [n=c@81.155.251.189] has joined #scheme 10:45:40 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@122.110.5.33] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:00:08 reprore [n=reprore@125.0.63.71] has joined #scheme 11:07:07 Arafangion: by various lisps do you mean CL, Scheme and elisp, or do you mean PLT, gambit, chicken etc? 11:07:37 lisppaste: url 11:07:37 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 11:08:05 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:08:18 hkBst: The ones I am /aware/ of are CL, Scheme, elisp, and John McCarthy's Lisp from 1956, which didn't have numbers. 11:08:37 hkBst: I'm very green here. :( (Currently reading SICP, which is pretty good) 11:09:15 -!- reprore [n=reprore@125.0.63.71] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:10:03 (The situation is that I've found a problem where I want to develop a mini-language, and it just seems that what little I know of lisp seems ideal to the problem, thus I want to figure out how the heck to do it - ie, develop a compiler for that custom lisp) 11:10:09 hkBst pasted "macro:apply" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81978 11:12:54 I'm sorry I don't yet understand that code - at least, not the body of the syntax-case. 11:13:02 Arafangion: that code is not for you 11:13:15 Was hard to tell. :) 11:13:40 Arafangion: what kind of mini-language? 11:14:24 hkBst: but that is nothing like apply! :p 11:14:52 re that paste: Suppose you have a list that is known at compile-time, how do you `apply' it with a macro. 11:16:23 why not just call apply ? 11:16:35 hkBst: I'm not yet terribly sure - it just seems that it's natural to define the language in terms of an abstract tree, to make it easier to optimize for a register-based CPU. 11:16:42 leppie: I don't want the list to exist at run-time 11:17:56 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:18:23 wasn't me annotated #81978 "i did not write this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81978#1 11:18:43 hkBst: The problem I have is how do I mentally approach the problem once it's been compiled down to machine code - which would then allow me to implement the thing. 11:18:56 hkBst: you can try that 11:18:59 Arafangion: an advantage of lisp is that you can develop mini-languages INSIDE your current lisp implementation 11:19:10 it's ugly 11:19:41 hkBst: I want the output to be assembler, however. 11:20:24 Arafangion: most lisps are compilers 11:20:43 hkBst: I've noticed that several are, yes. 11:22:35 hkBst: Suppose I want to implement a program in lisp, for a tiny 8-bit embedded system which barely has C. 11:25:11 Arafangion: something like http://armpit.sourceforge.net/ ? 11:26:09 Arafangion: I believe Gambit emits very portable C, so you try that 11:26:43 leppie: *cough*, let me replace "barely supports C", as in "Does not support C". 11:26:55 ok :) 11:27:13 Arafangion: but you can crosscompile C to it I suppose? 11:27:15 hkBst: Yes, something like that. 11:27:17 so what does it support? some arb assembly? 11:27:24 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 11:27:24 leppie: I can't say. 11:27:46 dipswitches and punch cards! 11:27:50 :) 11:28:03 leppie: Perhaps a little more modern than that. :) 11:28:38 Arafangion: the bigloo compiler (http://www-sop.inria.fr/mimosa/fp/Bigloo/bigloo-2.html) runs on maemo 11:29:13 hkBst: Armpit looks very interesting. 11:29:37 leppie: suppose a macro creates a list and I want to macro:apply some function to it? How do I do that? 11:30:26 I'm dying here 11:30:54 show me how you create the list 11:31:22 Damn, there's forth interpreters that use ~40 bytes of disk? 11:32:41 leppie: (macro:create-my-list) 11:33:23 show me how it's defined, and what you return from it 11:33:56 and do you want to evaluate at compile time, or at runtime? 11:33:59 -!- sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-35e388f5e3924a19] has left #scheme 11:34:36 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-53.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:35:29 hkBst annotated #81978 "macro:apply" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81978#2 11:35:42 leppie: at run-time 11:36:18 leppie: the example should output (+ 1 2 3) 11:36:46 s/output/expand to/ 11:37:11 macro:list returns syntax, not a list 11:38:29 -!- Quadrescence is now known as X86-64 11:38:30 im not sure that can work, but let me see 11:39:21 -!- X86-64 is now known as Quadrescence 11:39:23 -!- keyofnight [n=key@cpe-76-171-76-175.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 11:41:09 it cant work like that, macro:list is expanded after macro:apply 11:42:07 hkBst: Thanks for your help and your links... That, plus SICP is proving to become fundamental to understanding how I might do this. :) 11:43:06 Arafangion: good luck 11:44:32 hkBst: Thanks. :) 11:45:39 leppie: right. That's what I was trying to get around with the #,@ thingy 11:49:13 ok i think im getting somewhere 11:53:30 nope 11:54:32 hkBst, macros expand outermost to innermost. If you want to pass information from one macro to another, the second macro must be invoked in the output of the first. 11:55:36 For example, MACRO:LIST must know that information is to be passed to MACRO:APPLY. 11:56:17 If MACRO:LIST is meant to be used with an arbitrary other macro, not solely MACRO:APPLY, then MACRO:LIST must accept a continuation as an argument. 11:57:02 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:58:15 Riastradh annotated #81978 "MACRO:LIST in CPS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81978#3 11:58:51 hkBst, what do you want this for, anyway? 12:02:01 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:09:15 Riastradh: isn't it possible to tell macro:apply to expand the expression that should become a list? 12:13:41 Riastradh: I assume you're the Zhivago of #scheme >_> 12:14:04 hkBst, sorry, can you clarify what you mean? 12:15:24 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:18:47 Riastradh: I mean, is there no way to have macro:apply expand macro:list and stick the result in its own expansion? 12:19:19 No. Macros expand outermost-first. 12:21:10 Riastradh: there is no contradiction 12:22:17 macro:apply is expanded first and as part of its operation it expands one of its arguments. 12:23:05 Before we go further, can you please tell me what you want this for? 12:24:04 Riastradh: I'm trying to construct a function. One of my macros expands to a function that does a reduce over a fixed number of arguments. I want to generate a list with the arguments arranged in the right way.. I need a macro to use the two to construct the final function. 12:25:06 Can you show the code you want to write, and the code you want it to expand to? 12:25:48 Riastradh: When you have a moment, could you maybe say your opinions on different macro systems? 12:25:49 yes 12:26:26 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8113.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 12:29:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-27-121.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 12:31:25 What is your notion of `different macro systems', Quadrescence? 12:31:45 hkBst pasted "for riastradh" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81986 12:32:46 Riastradh: DEFINE-MACRO, DEFINE-SYNTAX, SYNTAX-CASE, etc 12:34:25 Unhygienic macro systems, commonly referred to by the name DEFMACRO or DEFINE-MACRO, are bugs. DEFINE-SYNTAX is not a significant technical term like DEFMACRO; it is simply the name of the form used in Scheme to introduce syntactic bindings, rather than variable bindings. The term `SYNTAX-CASE' unfortunately refers to several distinct concepts depending on context. 12:35:24 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 12:36:01 Riastradh: Why do you think DEFMACRO is a 'bug'? I ask because, I'm sure you're very aware Common Lisp uses them to no end (though, one must remember that CL is a lisp-2 too, which could make a difference, I guess) 12:36:22 DEFMACRO fails to record the meaning of names intended by the author of the macro. 12:38:23 hkBst, sorry, I can't see the connection between those two expressions. But first, no amount of macrology will turn a vector into multiple arguments to a procedure (STEP) whose definition didn't occur within a macro. 12:41:55 hkBst, can you be a little more specific about the transformation that you want to happen? 12:44:24 -!- FunkyDrummer [n=RageOfTh@89.146.163.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:32 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:51:59 hkBst annotated #81986 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81986#1 12:52:03 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:52:14 sorry, that's not ready 12:53:24 hkBst annotated #81986 "trying to be more specific" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81986#2 12:53:29 Riastradh: 12:55:05 hkBst: reduce-right-map is a macro? 12:55:41 soupdragon: yes 12:56:23 well I can't tell you how to make this exact thing work but it is possible to reorder things a bit 12:56:26 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:57:26 since (next-pos) is a macro invocation inside another it wont get expanded, so instead you can CPS it. Also the reduce-right-map higher order parameter should be CPSd 12:58:53 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:59:11 (as a let-syntax rather than lambda) 12:59:12 rmorris [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 13:05:00 Why are several scheme compilers implemented in languages such as C? 13:05:04 (Why not use scheme?) 13:05:37 What Scheme compilers are written in C? 13:05:46 Chicken is an obvious example. 13:05:53 (aside, perhaps, from some JITs) 13:05:54 Though that's not a good one... 13:05:55 No, it's not. 13:06:14 The Chicken compiler is implemented in Scheme. 13:06:30 Hmm, so it is. 13:07:32 So what Scheme compilers are written in C? 13:07:32 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:07:33 The person who told me (I forget who) must've confused implementation with 'compiles to'. 13:07:37 OK. 13:08:12 soupdragon: I'd rather not write my macros in CPS. 13:08:24 hkBst: Do you know another way? 13:08:43 hkBst, you will need to use CPS at some level, whether it `looks' inverted or otherwise. 13:09:46 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 13:10:01 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:10:02 soupdragon: I don't see why it needs to be this way 13:10:18 Well do you see a better way? 13:11:26 soupdragon: I get the feeling that I wouldn't have to write in CPS if I used defmacro. 13:11:42 Riastradh: not sure what that means. 13:12:18 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 13:12:22 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 13:12:33 hkBst, let me take a step back. What are your assumptions about the macro system? Are you writing R5RS SYNTAX-RULES macros? Are you writing R6RS SYNTAX-CASE macros? Are you writing something for a particular Scheme implementation without regard for others? 13:12:45 soupdragon: if I can specify that certain parts need to be expanded first and then put into the output, instead of put into the output unexpanded, it would work. 13:12:52 soupdragon: there is another way 13:14:33 what is it? 13:16:01 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-41-58.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:45 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-41-58.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:17:10 Riastradh: syntax-rules is not powerful enough for all the things I'm trying out, and I thought syntax-case was and it is reasonably portable, so I was trying to use syntax-case. I'm trying to write code that will work in multiple implementations. 13:17:46 *hkBst* remembers reading some paper on "composable macros" 13:17:48 If you want code that works in more than a few particular, mostly R6RS-oriented, implementations, you must use SYNTAX-RULES. 13:18:23 If SYNTAX-RULES isn't powerful enough, then no machine known to man is, but I suspect that's not what you meant. 13:19:41 soupdragon: you can use syntax-transformers directly on syntax 13:20:02 I don't know what you mean 13:20:11 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 13:21:06 he means ER probably, of course, that is, surely, what else? 13:21:20 Riastradh: can you write a suntax-rules macro that takes an integer L and spits out a list of length L? 13:22:18 so you want to program macro expansions using scheme procedures... 13:22:19 hkBst, not if by `an integer L' you mean that the input L is syntactically a literal integer, but I can write a SYNTAX-RULES macro that takes some representation of an integer and spits out a list of length L. 13:23:02 Riastradh: yes, so it isn't very powerful, even though it is Turing-complete. 13:23:18 expressive 13:23:20 ? 13:23:28 It has the power of a Turing machine. Please use a term that means what you intend, not a term that doesn't mean what you intend. 13:24:00 If you intend to say that it doesn't have the power of a Turing machine, then you can use the term `powerful', but your statement will be false. 13:24:18 turing machine isn't really 'power' is it 13:25:21 Riastradh: what term do you suggest? 13:25:36 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:26:11 `Expressiveness', hkBst, is a better term for what you are talking about. 13:26:43 But why do you want an integer? How about a list of named coordinates, such as (X Y Z), which suffices nicely as a representation of an integer and is also convenient syntactically for the purposes of generating code? You are given several good variable names. 13:30:47 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #scheme 13:32:43 Are there any scsh-like systems that will run unmodified on a 64-bit OS, specifically OpenBSD? 13:33:01 No. 13:33:04 metasyntax|work: if you want to do shell-like scripting, try gauche 13:33:39 foof: sadly, gauche also doesn't compile as-is on OpenBSD/amd64. 13:33:51 Be aware that the syntax-rules implementation is broken for some advanced uses. 13:34:02 Riastradh: yes, that may also work. I would be very happy to use only syntax-rules. 13:34:08 Seriously? I'm surprised, Gauche is very portable. 13:34:29 In fact, I believe it was the very first implementation to support amd64. 13:34:35 There's an error from the GC's configure script that the current platform is unsupported. 13:34:38 -!- Arafangion [n=arafangi@220-244-46-25.static.tpgi.com.au] has left #scheme 13:34:42 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 13:34:49 gauche works fine on amd64, so the OBSD must be the problem 13:36:34 I had the same error from ecl, but was able to fix it by having it use the system's boehm-gc rather than (what I think was) the one included with the source distribution. 13:37:06 I was actually going to see if I could puzzle this out in gauche but haven't got around to it yet. 13:38:20 metasyntax|work: post a message to the gauche list 13:42:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-27-121.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:27 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:47:39 m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 13:54:39 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:55:51 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:19 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 14:02:36 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:18 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:08:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@47-146.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-19-97.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 14:17:33 ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #scheme 14:18:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:21:58 hkBst, by the way, is there a particular reason you want to write composable macros, rather than just a monolithic one to spit out the whole form? 14:26:54 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:28 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-241.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:31:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-19-97.vodafone.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:04 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-229.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:33:43 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:34:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-12-190.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 14:35:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:40:50 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 14:47:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-216.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:49:45 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:53 CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 14:52:46 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 14:54:04 hkBst, now that I've had breakfast: . 14:54:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 14:54:54 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has left #scheme 14:55:07 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 14:55:16 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 14:55:55 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:57:12 Riastradh: what does the ?+ prefix mean? 14:57:19 I meant ?? or ??? etc 14:57:30 Just keeps the levels of macros straight. Names don't shadow in nested macros. 14:58:42 Names don't shadow meaning that say (lambda (x) .... ??foo ...) ??foo's x will not be bound by this lambda? 15:00:04 Meaning that in (syntax-rules () ((foo bar baz) ### (syntax-rules () ((foo bar baz) ###)) ###)), where `###' denotes omitted material (to avoid confusion with `...', which has a specific meaning), the second uses of bar and baz will actually not be pattern variables; instead whatever forms were supplied for the original pattern variables will be used as the *patterns* in the second SYNTAX-RULES. 15:03:49 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:51 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:04:34 -!- pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:33 sorry but I haven't a clue 15:07:04 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:50 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:11:22 dysinger___ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 15:12:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 15:14:04 benny99 [n=benny@p5486FA04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:28 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Success] 15:17:48 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@92.228.86.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:51 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:16 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Success] 15:20:38 Haiku [n=Haiku@113.Red-83-57-137.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:22:06 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:28:32 soupdragon: Riastradh means that if you don't use different names, then they are the same variable and not two variables with the inner one shadowing the outer one, like you might think. 15:29:04 -!- ASau [n=user@host31-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:29:20 Riastradh: no particular reason. I just hadn't comprehended that there is an issue with writing macros the way you write functions. 15:29:21 oh I see! 15:31:23 thanks for that code dump, Riastradh. I will spend some time studying it. 15:32:17 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Success] 15:33:44 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:36:45 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [] 15:37:33 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:33 reprore [n=reprore@i121-114-159-208.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has joined #scheme 15:49:12 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:54:06 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-223-255.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:57:30 peter_12_ [i=d85e983e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5b09106a2d44f418] has joined #scheme 16:03:41 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 16:05:21 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 16:08:08 benny99_ [n=benny@p5486FA04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:28 ikaros [n=ikaros@g228086161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 16:10:36 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:38 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:20:43 "Lamba expression is an interesting method to write compact code, but I am still exploring its practicality" 16:22:51 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:23:55 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486FA04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:23:58 benny99__ [n=benny@p5486FA04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:24:14 -!- benny99__ is now known as benny99 16:24:44 soupdragon: sauce? 16:27:32 -!- benny99_ [n=benny@p5486FA04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:28:40 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 16:28:46 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:56 Could it possibly be interesting? 16:29:01 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:30:37 -!- reprore [n=reprore@i121-114-159-208.s04.a014.ap.plala.or.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:31:30 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:34:53 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-105.cs.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 16:35:44 Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-165-160-171.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 16:35:53 is this for plt scheme ? 16:36:32 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:37:33 hi Sonja 16:48:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:57 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:52:39 It is for all Schemes. 16:53:28 i met an enthusiastic guy who spoke about plt scheme for hours last night 16:53:33 i guess it's very minimalist 16:54:03 i'm not much of a programmer, but i'm deeply interested in human languages and minimalism in them (like Toki Pona ) 16:54:29 Sonja: I don't think PLT is minimalist in any way... 16:54:35 Scheme the language (was) minimalist though 16:54:38 Ha. As Schemes go, it's hardly minimalist. It is the entire Trapp family, including the dog. 16:54:44 today.. I don't know what's going on with scheme 16:54:56 That said, it is a fine implementation. 16:55:44 soupdragon: if you want R4RS, you know where to find it! 16:55:45 Sonja: You could say R5RS is minimalistic. 16:55:55 I want R5RS.. 16:56:09 It's still there. They can't take that away from you. 16:56:22 which version of scheme has the biggest community? or most accessibility to non-programmers or kids? 16:56:35 PLT 16:57:24 PLT + /The Little Schemer/, maybe 16:59:30 *Daemmerung* googles 16:59:57 ...yeah. You should read /The Little Schemer/. Don't worry so much about which implementation for now. PLT will do, but so will many others. 17:01:00 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 17:01:56 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:02:16 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 17:02:22 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486FA04.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:03:42 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:09:25 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 17:11:41 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:15:47 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:19:33 -!- sepult_ is now known as sepult 17:20:31 -!- pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:34 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:27:03 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a8c68645a2dbcd12] has joined #scheme 17:27:49 foof: I saw someone on comp.lang.scheme asking about a new release of chibi 17:27:51 -!- Sonja [n=sonjaaa@69-165-160-171.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #scheme 17:33:46 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A19AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:02 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.174.65.80] has joined #scheme 17:46:23 melgray_ [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:47:03 -!- peter_12_ [i=d85e983e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5b09106a2d44f418] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:47:21 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:50:01 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 17:54:31 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:54:38 wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.210] has joined #scheme 17:56:00 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-12-190.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:58:32 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-53.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:01:23 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:31 To whom should I report incongruities between the PLT Scheme Docs and the DrScheme's REPL? 18:03:54 danking: might wanna try the plt mailing list? 18:04:03 or just talk to eli in person, lol 18:12:31 "rmorris"? 18:13:03 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:13:10 danking: The mailing list is best for something that could be a bug, but not necessarily. 18:14:10 eli: I've just noticed a few procedures that are listed as primitive operators in the docs for the HtDP Intermediate Student Language w/ Lambda, which are, in fact, not in the language (or atleast, DrScheme's REPL does not recognize them). 18:14:56 eli: ? 18:15:47 danking: Yes, use the list for that. 18:15:58 rmorris: Just amusing, reminded me of rtm. 18:16:09 lol 18:17:14 eli: Alright 18:21:20 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:00 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 18:27:57 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:32:52 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:43:41 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:43:43 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:27 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.10.45] has joined #scheme 18:47:22 peter_12: Regarding what you asked yesterday about garbage collection and reference counting, GC only exists when garbage is being produced. 18:48:52 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has joined #scheme 18:57:59 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:05 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:55 -!- wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.210] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:05:06 Can I get any opinions on testing frameworks? I'm not really familiar with the various options in depth enough to compare them. Particularly, SchemeUnit vs. TRC Testing vs. SRFI-78 vs. the other SRFI. 19:12:48 ejs [n=eugen@88-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 19:13:06 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-223-255.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:18 pbusser2: a garbage collector can exist whether or not garbage is being produced. 19:16:04 also the problem with reference counting is that actual garbage is sometimes not seen as garbage. That is what was making me think reference counting was kind of conservative. 19:16:37 arcfide: srfi-78 is nice and simple if you're just testing a small project 19:16:47 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8113.sa.bih.net.ba] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:01 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@SE400.PPPoE-8113.sa.bih.net.ba] has joined #scheme 19:18:47 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 19:19:46 I've heard that learning Scheme would be beneficial for programming in general; any suggestions? 19:19:47 moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 19:20:17 rouslan, learn Scheme! Then you'll best be able to pass judgement on the veracity of the advice. 19:20:20 rouslan: TSPL, SICP, HtDP, TLS, + Your Scheme Implementation of choice = Programming Enlightenment. :-P 19:20:58 (also, honestly, do you expect anything but a glowing endorsement from a channel of dedicated programming language nerds?) 19:21:21 arcfide: also acronym nirvana 19:21:58 SICP + SICP + SICP + SICP 19:22:01 rmorris: Well, what can I say? :-) 19:23:12 gnomon, arcfide: Specifically, what benefits does learning the language (and the language itself) have compared to C, C++, Java? 19:24:01 rouslan, that depends almost entirely on the person doing the learning. 19:24:42 I'm not trying to be difficult or obtuse, here, but it really is the case that Scheme will reward as much (or as little) effort as you put into learning it. 19:24:59 rouslan: C, C++, and Java tend to be full of boiler-plate type programming, or programming that is set into one methodology and a fairly limited structure. As gnomon says, what everyone learns will likely be different, but if you have never had any experience with differing paradigms, or their simultaneous use and expression within a single expressive language, Scheme will likely reveal to you a very different way of thinking and approaching 19:25:01 gnomon: Well, I'm a beginner (still learning BSTs, heaps, I/O, and concurrency). 19:25:01 programming problems. 19:25:38 arcfide: Sounds interesting; I'll learn it then! 19:25:56 Score one for the spinnage. 19:26:15 Might as well be useful for Emacs macros (Emacs Lisp). 19:26:22 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:06 rouslan: One thing I recommend is to really delve into all that Scheme has to offer, whether or not you feel like you will use it later. Especially, don't just stop when you can roughly translate existing problems into Scheme. Go on to the parts of Scheme that other languages don't make so readily available. 19:28:02 arcfide: Such as dynamic typing? 19:28:21 sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-a764fe9cf05c5319] has joined #scheme 19:28:26 rouslan: However, if you are a beginner with a little expreience, like you say, the SICP book (Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs) is a great way of exercising your mind and learning how Scheme can be used to express a number of different styles of programming. 19:28:36 not dynamic typing 19:28:50 Dynamic typing is a crutch, if you rely on it extensively. 19:28:57 rouslan: That's more basic; think Continuations, Macros, Closures, &c. 19:29:13 It's a useful crutch for getting hacks to work quickly, but it can stand in the way of letting an optimizing compiler do its best work if you rely on it heavily. 19:29:30 rouslan: what languages have you learned or used in the past? 19:29:52 rouslan: Also, dynamic typing just means that you need to be disciplined about your interfaces, because the compiler probably won't stop you from doing something. This is both nice and dangerous. 19:33:34 arcfide: no criticism towards you, but I find it amazing that people talk about "dynamic typing" as though variables in a language like Scheme ever had a type to begin with. It seems like baggage that people coming from typed-variable languages have..."ah, ah, ahh, but...it has to have a type so it must be *changing* its type." 19:33:45 seems like "untyped variables" is more appropriate. 19:33:47 -!- ejs [n=eugen@88-117-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:51 ejs0 [n=eugen@76-86-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:09 peter_12_: what about the disjunct type predicates? 19:34:11 if you try and call it 'untyped' everyone goes nuts at you 19:34:13 peter_12_: I shy away from speaking about variables being untyped 19:34:23 because I think people get confused then thinking that *values* have no types. 19:34:38 well they need to learn about references 19:34:51 I don't know why it matters that values have types though 19:35:03 is the type of 3 integer? or is it odd numbers? or ... 19:35:05 they need the mental model of references anyway and letting them keep thinking variables are the data they reference is not good either. 19:35:09 peter_12_: C, C++, and Java (currently). 19:35:15 Because variables or bound names at any one time do have a value with a type associated with them, one can say that there is a "type" for the variable. However, I think it is easier to just use "dynamic typing" at first. 19:35:27 rouslan: well if you know those you are definitely ready for SICP 19:35:40 peter_12_: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-6.html#%_sec_3.2 19:35:41 knowing C or C++ or Java has nothing to do with SICP 19:35:42 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/muarkt 19:36:01 soupdragon: no but SICP is probably not for a person with no programming experience 19:36:06 yes is it 19:36:29 soupdragon: It is very important that values have types. Scheme is strongly-typed, and there are a number of disjoint types for values. Additional predicates may exist to further subdivide these types, or new disjoint types may be created, but that's kind of important. 19:36:40 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:36:44 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:36:59 rouslan: SICP is available free online http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/. I made a deal with myself: if I read the first chapter and did all the exercises I would buy the book. It quickly became my favorite programming book. 19:37:14 peter_12, your comment makes me believe that you're not familiar with the difference between strong/weak typing and static/dynamic typing. Am I misinterpreting your comment? 19:37:23 peter_12_: Thanks for the link 19:37:28 soupdragon: Types have an important part to play in a language like Scheme, because it enables further, useful abstraction. 19:37:44 peter_12_: But would it make sense to learn this at such an early stage? 19:37:58 arcfide: I am not sure I ever came across this, what abstraction[s]? 19:38:15 rouslan: SICP is a beginners book, you don't have to have experience 19:38:23 rouslan: the earlier the better. The ideas in Scheme (or Lisp in general) are becoming part of other languages all the time. 19:38:41 soupdragon: did you read SICP as a complete beginner? 19:38:47 no 19:38:54 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 19:38:55 that's why it took me so long to learn these basic things 19:38:57 peter_12_: Ok, I'll definitely start reading it soon. 19:39:23 soupdragon: I think most complete beginners would find SICP over their heads 19:39:44 especially chapters 4 and 5 19:39:51 that is some heavy stuff 19:40:05 peter_12_: Well, it is important that they read the previous chapters first. ;-) 19:40:17 peter_12_: And it helps to have some guide when reading SICP. 19:40:40 soupdragon: Just as an example, with records you can create new disjoint types, these are abstractions. 19:40:43 yes. A complete beginner with no guide would not do well with SICP. 19:40:56 peter_12_: That depends on the individual. 19:41:01 of course 19:41:05 in general 19:43:00 X-Scale2 [i=email@89-180-161-149.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 19:43:21 rouslan: if you want to feel like your in a bit of a reading group studying SICP then this might help: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2007/06/19/introducing-the-sicp-reading-notes/ 19:43:28 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6kpv8o 19:46:55 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:43 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@228.Red-79-151-168.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:48:50 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@228.Red-79-151-168.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 19:50:29 -!- sz0 [i=5e36c52f@gateway/web/freenode/x-a764fe9cf05c5319] has left #scheme 19:57:01 curtisw [n=cw@c-71-194-80-68.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:07 hey guys 19:57:22 I'm experiencing an odd issue with drscheme on windows 19:57:44 when I try and type a left bracket - [ - it inserts a parenthesis instead 19:57:52 but only sometimes 19:58:11 has anybody else had this problem? 19:59:22 curtisw: It detects certain places where `[' is stylistically preferred, so you usually just need `[' for both paren shapes. Use `Ctrl+[' to force a bracket. 19:59:46 thanks 20:00:04 that's kind of annoying, though 20:00:36 wait PLT actually put '[' in instead of '(' sometimes? 20:00:44 There's some preference somewhere to turn it off. 20:00:47 soupdragon: No. 20:01:08 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.196.113] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:01:12 then what happens? 20:01:23 when you press the bracket keys, it inserts a paren 20:01:26 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 20:01:32 unless a bracket is appropriate 20:01:32 soupdragon: It sometimes insert `(' when you press `['. 20:01:36 in which case it puts a bracket in 20:02:25 k that's actually what I said 20:02:38 curtisw: preferences -> editing -> square bracket -> "Automatically adjust opening square brackets". 20:02:40 when I was your age, all we had were round brackets, and we liked it! 20:02:47 thanks, eli 20:03:46 soupdragon: No, you asked if "put '[' in instead of '(' sometimes", when it's the other way. 20:03:54 don't be daft 20:03:58 langmartin: Yeah yeah. 20:04:04 no, he's right, soup 20:04:07 you said the opposite 20:04:18 it never replaces parens with brackets 20:04:21 but it does the opposite 20:04:51 also, no reason to act pissy 20:04:57 soupdragon: http://www.toonhound.com/soupdragon-1.jpg 20:05:20 curtisw: soupdragon is a known troll. 20:05:45 hmm 20:05:50 I used to have fun trolling trolls 20:05:51 eli, you're being a dick 20:05:56 but I stopped when I realized that they got off on it, too 20:06:31 curtisw: but that's the circle of life 20:08:00 anyway, thanks again 20:08:04 -!- curtisw [n=cw@c-71-194-80-68.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #scheme 20:10:06 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 20:12:31 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 20:12:35 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 20:13:04 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:15:16 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:15:33 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:15:42 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 20:17:02 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:35 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 20:19:40 klutometis: HA! 20:19:52 (the soup dragon pic) 20:21:15 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:22:18 -!- dysinger___ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:23:46 wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.210] has joined #scheme 20:24:00 hello 20:24:20 hi 20:26:02 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@76-86-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:24 I'm looking at Clojure's macro facilities. It looks simpler than Scheme's, but I wonder if anybody here has observed any flaws? 20:30:14 curtisw [n=cw@c-71-194-80-68.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:17 hello again 20:30:34 is there a standard function to shift a list by an element? 20:30:49 e.g., (shift '(1 2 3) 1) => '(2 3 1) 20:31:01 or 'rotate', if you prefer 20:31:50 hmm, even better 20:32:11 is there a standard function to make a list cycle back on itself? 20:32:12 wy_: it's basically Common Lisps defmacro right? So all the same problems apply 20:32:43 curtisw, it's possible to do that, but recall that list tail access is generally O(n) in the length of the list. 20:33:12 soupdragon: no it's not. It has sort of "hygiene", but it is implemented in such a "naive" way that I'm doubting its correctness over complicated uses 20:34:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:34:27 wy_: Is there any docs for it? clojure website doesn't go into hygiene at all 20:34:45 http://clojure.org/api#defmacro is pretty sparse 20:34:59 No, not hygienic 20:35:54 it's pretty much defmacro 20:36:11 curtisw: There's `circular-list' in srfi-1 20:36:32 thanks 20:36:55 With some namespacing 20:43:38 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:16 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-105.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit [] 20:45:06 dudleyf: It's a little too early to say it hasn't. It is trying to do it although it is using the misleading name "defmacro". It is different from CL's 20:45:56 If you open src/clj/clojure/core.clj, there is definitions for lots of constructs like "and", "or", ... 20:47:22 wy_: So there's no docs other than that one link thing? 20:47:33 soupdragon: no docs ... 20:47:39 -!- rmorris [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:41 that sucks 20:48:04 I tried to prove it broken, but so far haven't succeeded yet. It will qualify all names under backquote 20:48:09 Right, but it works on raw s-expressions instead of syntax objects 20:48:12 curtisw: circular lists can be formed by setting the cdr of the last pair to the head of the list; you might as well learn the primitive method in addition to the opaque library method: 20:48:16 incubot: (let* ((a (list 1 2 3))) (set-cdr! (last-pair a) a) (take a 42)) 20:48:17 (1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3) 20:48:31 I just hope to find one counterexample 20:48:45 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:02 yes, i know 20:50:07 i just didn't want to rewrite a library function 20:50:12 incubot: '() 20:50:13 () 20:50:15 incubot '() 20:50:21 thanks anyway, though :) 20:50:39 btw, i like how mzscheme displays circular lists 20:50:51 in haskell it just keeps printing forever 20:50:54 incubut: (how do you know what is scheme and (what is not)) 20:50:55 Does it use that # notation? 20:51:00 yes 20:51:01 incubot: (how do you know what is scheme and (what is not)) 20:51:02 Error: unbound variable: how 20:51:11 incubot: how do you know what is scheme and what is not 20:51:16 I don't know the details... 20:51:17 incubot: how do you know what is scheme and what is not? 20:51:21 what are those benefits? 20:51:26 Parens, obviously. :-P 20:51:36 curtisw: it borrowed the notation from srfi 38 20:51:45 incubot: zero? 20:51:48 the seg registers are pegged at zero in amd64/emt64 20:51:58 well, wherever it got it from 20:52:00 it's nice 20:52:37 no 20:53:37 Wait a tic... Mozilla's javascript has some kind of reference notation. I don't remember how similar it is (and I don't have access to a browser at the moment) but I think it might be borrowed. 20:55:08 Hey, is there a way to play with incubot out of channel? 20:55:36 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-190-53.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:56:20 TimMc: /query incubot 20:56:36 still have to preface things with incubot:, though, even in query mode 20:56:47 it's basically just a chicken repl, though 20:57:38 Sweet, thanks! Didn't know about that feature. Does it create a pseudo-channel? 20:58:10 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:14 klutometis: No, the circular list notation is not from srfi-38, it significantly precedes it. But it's definitely not something unique to PLT -- it probably originates from Chez. But that's not the origin either, it's a very common way of printing self-referential data that is used in Lisp. 21:02:20 Hah, nevermind. I see that it's basically /msg 21:02:38 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 21:07:11 dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 21:08:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:09:05 Common Lisp uses that notation, and if iI had to wager I'd guess MacLisp did too 21:09:10 soupdragon: I found it doesn't seem to be possible to have variables bound by lambdas in Clojure 21:10:03 using tde macros or ? 21:12:26 is there a way to apply multiple return values to a function, without having to bind them to identifiers first? 21:12:41 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:13:04 curtisw: You mean like CALL-WITH-VALUES? 21:13:07 r5rs call-with-values 21:13:08 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_574 21:13:11 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5pbxgd 21:13:19 that would work, yes 21:13:21 thanks 21:13:32 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:13:49 *arcfide* just used CALL-WITH-VALUES recently. I thought I would not use that with things like RECEIVE and LET-VALUES, but I guess I was wrong. 21:16:51 Ha, yeah, Mozilla JS totally uses the same self-referential data syntax: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Sharp_variables_in_JavaScript 21:18:54 -!- moghar [n=moghar@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:19:12 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["soccer"] 21:19:24 dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 21:21:07 Alright, email address abstraction question. 21:21:44 Say we have a group of addressees, what would you prefer to work with, a list whose first element is the name of the group, or a record with a field for the group name and a field with the list of addresses? 21:22:17 Gack. I'm putting together a specbot index for r6rs, and I just noticed that the HTML version replaces ' with a unicode RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK (code point 8217). 21:22:48 LaTex run amok? 21:22:54 Oh, overzealous translators. 21:23:16 And the RFC uses the term "mailbox" to talk about addresses in general, whether they are route addresses, normal addresses, or addresses with names associated with them; would you prefer the term "mailbox" or "address" when dealing with a datatype that hold the information for referencing a mailbox/address? 21:23:46 chandler; You are tackling specbot R6RS? That must be, er, fun. 21:24:17 Oh, and ` is replaced with LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK 21:24:42 arcfide: I generally hack at the HTML index with regexp-replace in Emacs until I've pulled out the bits that I want to use. 21:24:49 It's not difficult, just a bit tedious. 21:25:32 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:48 -!- wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.210] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:07 It's something to do while waiting for Apple to come to grips with the idea that when they release a software update, a lot of people will try to download it all at once. 21:26:29 chandler: Having trouble? I always found Apple's servers to be very responsive. 21:26:42 I wonder if they'll start to use BitTorrent? :-) 21:26:43 This is the iPod touch software update I'm trying to get. 21:26:50 And all I get is an unknown error (-4). 21:27:06 WoW started to use BitTorrent to distribute their patches. 21:27:53 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-241.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:28:09 exexex [n=chatzill@85.97.137.86] has joined #scheme 21:28:38 -!- dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:30:44 wingo [n=wingo@38.Red-81-39-162.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:30:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-65.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:31:32 'lo 21:38:56 dysinger [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has joined #scheme 21:40:03 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [] 21:42:03 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:45:30 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:45:34 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@g228086161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 21:50:12 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:50:56 HG` [n=wells@xdslgl159.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 21:56:22 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-216.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:59:38 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:04:03 -!- dysinger__ [n=tim@71.20.231.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:12 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgl159.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:10:39 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:10:56 elias` [n=c@host81-155-251-189.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:17:59 sampointon [n=sampoint@79-78-75-122.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 22:21:36 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:08 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:54 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:27:14 TimMc: that's because js is a conspiracy by lisp-hackers to take over the world with c-like syntax 22:29:14 klutometis: I suspected as much. 22:30:37 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:32:03 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 22:32:04 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:33:10 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:24 Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 22:46:51 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 22:56:58 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:57:45 rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has joined #scheme 22:58:10 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:58:41 arcfide: Are you there? 22:59:46 benny99 [n=benny@p5486B3AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:19 -!- rouslan [n=Rouslan@unaffiliated/rouslan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:10 rouslan: Yes, what's up? 23:04:17 Ack. 23:04:19 Missed him. 23:07:41 raig [n=user@32.Red-79-150-112.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:29 copumpkin [n=pumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:15:51 -!- wingo [n=wingo@38.Red-81-39-162.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:20:56 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [No route to host] 23:25:02 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486B3AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:40:10 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:40:19 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 23:46:47 Fnord. 23:51:03 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:31 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 23:56:57 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:57:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"]