00:12:26 sladegen: time is untyped in the sense that it's orthogonal to type; or super-comprehends the consummate type-nexus? 00:13:25 -!- flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p50808234.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #scheme 00:17:30 -!- akiross [n=akiross@host-62-10-6-86.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:34:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:48 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 00:51:00 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:44 -!- Mestoco [n=user@bbwirelessgw1-ff98c300-64.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:57:45 chris2 [n=cky@98.105.45.127] has joined #scheme 00:58:35 -!- cky [n=cky@166.166.121.74] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:58:37 -!- chris2 is now known as cky 01:09:08 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 01:09:30 TimMc [n=timmc@aurail.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 01:11:04 karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:45 easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:32 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:22:46 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-115-38-45.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:51 -!- karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 01:33:18 sladegen: no, i don't know what that means 01:34:45 smoking or drinking? 01:35:17 sladegen: head trauma on thursday; a particularly bad rugby hit from behind 01:41:58 I understand the 4 corner simultaneous 4-day time cube. 01:44:12 -!- underspecified__ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 01:46:01 *sladegen* tried to think up a metaphor between syntax and semantics using complex valued angle of i. fail! better luck with process physics. 01:47:03 synx: "gott ist tot: es leben die goetter" is how i understand the time-cube-zarathustra 01:47:28 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:47:46 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:25 dammit; i should have asked for rationale first. it's the most interesting part, and the least filled out 01:50:39 make filling it up unoptional! stupid monkeys without rationalle! 02:03:50 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.154.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:28 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:21:30 raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9ba03cb93755cc57] has joined #scheme 02:23:21 I love the hyper-gravity on PLT. 02:23:41 Chibi and false modesty? LOL 02:24:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 02:27:14 looks like stalin and gambit are mating 02:27:25 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:28:46 chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.64.199] has joined #scheme 02:51:54 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-3-44.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:41 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.64.199] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:53:09 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176207107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:30 arcfide: if c.l.s. doesn't prove more productive, may have to hit up the individual mailing lists; though i had hoped c.l.s. was as close to unbiased as it gets 02:54:49 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 02:54:53 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:05 DasIch [n=DasIch@p5B3A6C0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:53 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:03:08 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:59 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:08:09 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176198236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-9.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:10:23 foof: it looks like you are heavy on the #define's. Do you think that is a big part of chibi's speed? 03:15:48 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-140-190.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:10 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:36:21 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:50 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 03:41:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 03:42:14 karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:52 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:43:01 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:43:13 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 03:43:19 thesnowdog_ [n=thesnowd@114.73.155.37] has joined #scheme 03:43:27 What happened to the Guile ``use any language'' project? 03:44:06 karlw: use any language and it is converted into Guile byte code? 03:45:14 Yes, or implement any language in Scheme and get Guile libraries for free. 03:45:37 I don't know why Perl folks would be interested in that, for example. 03:46:53 Well, maybe not Perl specifically. 03:47:03 which language would be interested? 03:47:18 s/language/language community/ 03:48:46 -!- thesnowdog [i=thesnowd@74.147.220.203.dial.dynamic.acc01-aubu-gou.comindico.com.au] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:48:57 -!- thesnowdog_ is now known as thesnowdog 03:49:08 Python, a BASIC dialect for paren-haters, people who want interoperability. 03:50:02 i.e., BASIC with Scheme features like HOFs. 03:50:29 I can understand a lack of enthusiasm 03:50:51 it is a neat idea but the basic people live in a basic world ;-) 03:51:28 yeah, *sigh* 03:52:04 there are lots of people writing language x to JavaScript compilers or interpreters. They aren't catching on much either 03:53:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:19 What about languages embedded in Scheme for those who don't like parens? Strictly speaking, something like that could help ``evangelism'' 03:56:50 I think if they don't like parens they won't want to be anywhere near Scheme at all. 03:56:59 Like SRFI 49 03:57:05 PLT is way closer to the "any langauge" ideal. 03:57:19 *eli* happens to be working on that aspect right now 03:57:20 Honestly I don't get people afraid of the parens. I liked the parens immediately. 03:58:13 I did also, but I'd never written a program before when I saw them. 03:58:41 karlw: lisp was your first programming experience? What year was that? 03:59:37 2007 04:00:01 wow 04:00:09 how did lisp happen to be your first? 04:00:16 that is just really unusual 04:00:21 Scheme. 04:00:48 In Summer 2008 I took CS 3 at UC Berkeley. 04:01:02 peter_12: There are many schools that use Scheme for a first-level course. 04:01:17 And that includes high-schools too. 04:01:21 well I say luck folks who learn scheme first 04:01:30 high schools?!?! wow! 04:01:52 I learned Logo in grade 6 and Pascal in 11 and 12 04:02:19 I guess Logo is lisp-like in ways 04:02:20 Logo is fairly Scheme-like. 04:02:39 I had fiddled with basic before that so I can't claim logo as my first 04:02:47 peter_12: So my guess is that this is a good number of years before 2007... 04:03:03 like ``map [? * ?] [1 2 3 4 5 6 7]'' 04:03:12 like 20 years earlier 04:03:55 peter_12: That's close to when I had this, with a similar language lineup. 04:04:12 (Both logo and pascal) 04:04:26 (And the earlier basic thing.) 04:04:36 http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/usermanual 04:05:14 peter_12: In any case, the http://www.teach-scheme.org/ project addresses mostly highschool teachers. 04:05:40 Well, my dad taught me a little bit of Fortran when I was 9. 04:06:03 But I forgot it quickly. 04:06:42 karlw: You should consider yourself lucky. 04:06:45 They actually removed computer science from the curriculum here in British Columbia. I was lucky to take it while it existed. I would have drowned in CSC 100 with C if I didn't know some things. As it was, I found the course pretty easy. 04:08:13 Anyway, it may be an instructive project to add Berkeley Logo as a teaching language in PLT. 04:09:38 karlw: There are some serious attitude problem with logo. 04:09:49 Mostly the fact that it's heavily imperative. 04:09:56 Also, IIRC, it's dynamically scoped. 04:10:20 to treemap :f :tree 04:10:24 ugg. dynamically scoped. 04:11:05 Take both of these features away, change the syntax to sexprs, and you get something very close to what the HtDP languages are doing. 04:11:18 if emptyp children :tree [make.tree datum :tree []] 04:11:24 HtDP is not Scheme? 04:12:05 peter_12: It's pretty close -- but the important point here is doing graphics functionally rather than imperatively. 04:13:25 See the "Quick" manual for examples (http://docs.plt-scheme.org/quick/index.html), or the new HtDP material (http://world.cs.brown.edu/) 04:13:26 err, if emptyp children :tree [make.tree (run :f (datum :tree)) []] 04:14:08 map [treemap :f ?] (children :tree) 04:14:15 end 04:14:41 eli: You would call treemap imperative? 04:14:44 eli: thanks for the links. There are so many books I want to read. Sometimes I think I don't think I want to write software. I just want to read about it. 04:14:50 karlw: BTW, things like `emptyp' expose the lispish roots of logo (IIRC, it was first implemented on Lisp). 04:15:42 karlw: No, that treemap is of course not imperative, but take logo, subtract the (imperative) turtle graphics, and you get some boring language. 04:16:40 Dynamic scope is especially bad for "real" FP. 04:17:01 It's more interesting than, say, BASIC at least. 04:17:31 (Well, that's not saying much...) 04:17:42 Indeed 04:18:01 dynamic scope is especially bad for readers of source code 04:18:45 How is a reader to reason about code like that? Hideous. Hideous! 04:18:57 Dynamic scope is interesting for some toy uses. 04:19:18 I don't even want to allow myself to think like that. 04:19:32 I'm sure it is a cancer 04:19:45 I did, it doesn't hurt. 04:19:49 Dynamic scope is pretty bad for writers too, as the pile of loosely held hacks that is known as "Emacs" demonstrates so very well. 04:20:17 eli: I had to deal with some emacs with some dynamically scoped variables. It was hideous. 04:20:53 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-59-127-253.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:21:04 peter_12: I wrote a lot of Emacs code in the past, and even have a piece in the Emacs tree -- I can definitely sympathise. 04:21:17 eli: Okay, how do I get DrScheme to behave like Emacs? 04:21:37 karlw: It doesn't? Do you know what this definition does: (define foo (lambda (x) (+ x delta))) ? 04:21:59 -!- Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:22:26 eli: is delta dynamically scoped? 04:22:56 reprore_ [n=reprore@o199-56.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 04:22:57 (To get a proper emulation of Emacs you need both dynamic scope *and* two namespaces. Both are not particularly difficult, but not something that interested anyone so far.) 04:23:22 peter_12: Assume it's in a dynamically scoped language -- so yes, `delta' is dynamically scoped. 04:23:44 It binds the symbol ``foo'' to a procedure object in the current environment. 04:23:53 eli: Then no one knows what foo does. Not even its author. 04:24:09 karlw: Right -- but what can you say about what `foo' does? 04:24:15 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:24:32 More exactly, what does the function value that `foo' is bound to do? 04:26:46 (psst, karlw, use my answer ;-)) 04:27:03 :) 04:27:24 It calls the function + with foo's formal parameter and the value of the symbol delta in the current environment. This, of course, violates referential transparency because (foo bar) has a different value depending on the program's execution state. 04:27:57 karlw: It's worse. You should have taken peter_12's advice. 04:28:14 karlw: What about this: (let ([+ list]) (foo 1)) ? 04:28:35 or, rather, could possibly have a different value. 04:29:12 I understand, but that's kind of an extreme case. 04:29:14 what if delta isn't even defined? 04:29:57 unbound variable: delta 04:30:42 karlw: Why is that extreme? 04:30:48 what if + isn't even a function? 04:31:20 karlw: The bottom line is that you can't really tell anything about that function definition. Given random dynamic environments it can do completely random stuff. 04:31:39 What if + is overloaded to mean string-append? 04:32:41 I'm not defending dynamic scope, I prefer lexical anyway :-) 04:32:58 and what if + is string append and then converts the string to a number...fun debugging right there ;-) 04:33:15 Or, rather, strongly prefer 04:33:16 karlw: The thing is that people usually underestimate the scope of the catastrophe. 04:33:39 Pun intended? 04:33:47 eli: wouldn't you think the pure functional people would argue the same about mutability? 04:34:48 (I'm not sure. Why is it that in English puns always have to come with an intended/unintended classification? Maybe I just want to be ambiguous -- play the mysterious macho guy in bars and all that.) 04:35:05 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:35:25 Oh well, I think it's funny. 04:35:27 peter_12: They would argue in a similar way, but they would also agree that dynamic scope is much more disastrous. 04:35:33 #scheme is "in bars and all that"? ;-) 04:36:35 Drinking isn't my thing. 04:36:54 And mutation *can* be of course bad, but at least small doses of it can be contained in some code so you can overall still reason about the program. 04:37:31 eli: ok then I have a question for you. In erlang they have multi-methods. But because there is no mutability they have to define all their multiple methods together in one file. So if they have an area function they have to define their square and circle versions there in the same function. 04:37:46 State has its uses. 04:37:51 then if they want to add triangles they have to edit that area file 04:38:19 there is no way to add a triangle area function in another file and register it like it is done in SICP 04:38:58 There was going to be a question in there but now that I've ranted I suppose there is no question in there. It just drives me nuts that is how Erlang works, I suppose. 04:38:59 peter_12: Yeah, that's a classic problem. I've faced it in the implementation of Swindle -- but any kind of a solution to that (in the scope of a CLOS-like system) is messy. 04:40:02 IIRC, SICP provides a good overview of the different options, in an 80s-kind-of-way. 04:40:17 SICP doesn't provide a version when variables are immutable 04:40:46 I mean the whole thing about making the dispatch on the type or on the operation etc. 04:41:00 I suppose the function named "area" could look for a function "area-triangle" if the tag on the argument to area is "triangle". A dynamic lookup sort of thing. 04:41:30 eli: What's good to look at post-SICP? 04:41:43 K&R? 04:41:48 PLAI. 04:42:15 To deepen one's Scheme knowledge. 04:42:47 Fateman recommended Norvig's book. 04:42:59 not K&R unless implementing Scheme in C to deepen your Scheme knowledge is on your list of things to do. 04:43:07 Which Norvig book? 04:43:42 eli: What is Swindle? 04:43:56 Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. 04:44:00 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:44:08 pbusser2: A CLOS-like system in PLT. 04:44:18 eli: Ok. 04:44:20 pbusser2: http://barzilay.org/Swindle/ 04:44:53 I prefer TinyTalk. 04:45:03 (Actually that page is there only because I'm too lazy to remove it, as well as rewrite my home page out of its mid-90s.) 04:45:21 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:45:24 karlw: Norvig's book is pretty bad if you want to learn more Scheme and/or more PL. 04:45:25 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 04:45:35 Doesn't the fact that defining functions means mutating an environment just drive the pure pure functional programmers nuts? I mean how can they justify that sort of mutation? 04:45:45 (Besides, Norvig is a python guy now...) 04:46:06 peter_12: Where do you see that kind of mutation? 04:46:13 Gasp! Norvig switched to the dark side? 04:47:02 I want to be a mathematician, so I'm more into Scheme in that sense I guess. 04:47:12 eli: If they want to have any functions in their programs they are going to have to define them, right? It started out as a nice white screen and they had to go and type on it (aka mutate it). 04:47:38 karlw: You are studying math at Berkley? 04:47:54 yes 04:48:07 you must be a smarty pants ;-) (I'm jealous by the way.) 04:48:28 What kind of math? 04:48:28 Don't be. 04:49:49 peter_12: Why is that mutation? (I'm not joking btw: if you consider the fact that Haskell programs also begin with a white screen that gets filled with text, then something fishy is going on here.) 04:50:44 Well, I took a while to decide my major, so now I'm focused on ``get to upper div core and get straight A+'s'' 04:50:46 eli: I'm joking at least a bit. I mean that after Haskell and all its prelude is loaded, the user's code is loaded, right? 04:51:07 No wonder I suck at programming, I always start with a dark screen... 04:51:17 I like abstract algebra. 04:51:23 *eli* starts with black screens too 04:51:39 you guys will go blind with your black screens. 04:51:56 peter_12: Well your question (which is a good one) highlights one of the more subtle points about Scheme. 04:52:13 but it's a bit early to decide, I'm not a Ph.D. candidate or anything. 04:52:51 karlw: Whatever you do. Pace yourself at least a little bit. I totally burned out and said no thanks to my grad school scholarship. 04:52:55 peter_12: In PLT, for example (as well as probably all other Schemes with a module system, including all R6RS implementations), a `define' in a module is not doing any side-effect -- it is more like an internal binding (turned into a `letrec'). 04:53:34 eli: no side-effects at all? 04:53:34 eli: So, where is PLT's Maxima clone? 04:54:48 It's only at the toplevel where `define' is considered as a kind of a mutation. Various languages deal with that in various ways. For example, in Haskell you can't (usually?) write definitions at the repl, and in ML (ocaml, for example) the repl gives you `let*' semantics for re-definitions of the same name. 04:55:05 karlw: I don't understand the question. 04:55:19 eli: if there are no mutations at all, then how does another piece of code take advantage of that module being loaded? 04:56:06 Has anyone written a Computer Algebra library? 04:56:33 peter_12: There is no mutation at the language level. The fact that "loading" involves some side effect at the machine level is still transparent within the language. 04:56:37 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-168-6.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [No route to host] 04:56:47 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-189-163.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 04:56:56 peter_12: An obvious example to try is (define x 1) followed by (define x (+ x 1)). 04:57:24 eli: I'm not trying to be a tard but when a module loads, is it not accessible by other code? 04:57:30 In some Scheme's that will leave `x' bound to 2. In most it won't. In a PLT module you'll get an error about two definitions for `x'. 04:57:46 peter_12: Sure it is. What's the point? 04:58:02 eli: that is a mutation that is visible by the code, isn't it? 04:58:17 peter_12: How is the mutation visible? 04:58:20 karlw: I believe SCM has some sort of algebra stuff written for it. 04:58:39 eli: suddenly the code can call a function it could not call before the module was loaded 04:58:52 peter_12: That was a concrete question, BTW. The answer should be some piece of code that behaves differently because there's mutation involved. 04:59:00 peter_12: I may minor in arabic and international studies, but that's too off-topic for #scheme :-) 04:59:37 peter_12: There is no "suddenly" involved -- you `require' a module, which is the same as writing a definition. 04:59:54 eli: so the require works like a let also? 05:00:10 Sort of. 05:00:12 peter_12: But see the previous comment -- try to come up with an expression that shows the difference. 05:00:18 arcfide: PLT and Chicken support SLIB and therefore JACAL, I think. 05:00:34 (bar) (require bar-module) (bar) 05:00:49 karlw: Well, even so, I don't know if you will find it useful for integrating into other code, but if used as a standalone system, it might work. 05:00:51 karlw: I wouldn't build on anything that requires SLIB support in PLT. 05:00:55 the first call to bar is to an undefined function. The second call is not. 05:01:08 peter_12: *Where* do you plan to write these three expressions? 05:01:19 together in one source file 05:01:28 peter_12: You mean in a module? 05:01:44 -!- gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:47 sure 05:02:07 peter_12: In that case (and assuming PLT) you'll get two calls to `bar'. 05:02:15 so the requires are done first 05:02:22 eli: (sarcasm '(youre kidding)) 05:02:30 eli: If I understand correctly, PLT Scheme treats a source file with #lang scheme at the top that has no explicit module declaratoin, but a list of definitions and expressions as if those expressions and definitions had occured wrapped in a module importing scheme, or some such, right? 05:02:36 choas [n=lars@p5B0DDC0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:02 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:07 peter_12: It's not really "done first" -- `require' is basically like an instruction to link in `bar-module' to the current one. 05:03:26 eli: gotcha 05:03:29 karlw: No, what's funny about that? `require' is not an expression, just like `define' and many others. 05:03:44 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:04:02 arcfide: `#lang scheme' *is* defining the code in a module. 05:04:03 I referred to your comment about SLIB. 05:04:35 eli: Okay, so there is no way to get some different semantics than what you get from wrapping something in a module using the "primary" language in PLT? 05:05:05 karlw: Ah, in that case, I'm not kidding. SLIB was not really supported, and my guess is that it relies on `set-ca/dr!' in a way that make it hopeless with the current versions. 05:05:08 eli: That is, there's no such thing as a "top level" that is treated differently than code wrapped in a module declaration? 05:05:10 eli: So that require call is still mutating interpreter state. 05:05:17 -!- AlcariTheMad [n=Administ@adsl-75-15-187-86.dsl.bkfd14.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 05:05:34 arcfide: In fact, it will make the code read as a module -- if you have plt installed then try (parameterize ([read-accept-reader #t]) (with-input-from-file "some-file.ss" read)) 05:05:56 eli: I actually don't have PLT Scheme installed. 05:06:17 arcfide: why would you tell eli that. It must break his heart. 05:06:22 Right, so it is one module per file, and every file is a module, no? 05:06:39 peter_12: it is well known that I don't use PLT. No one is crying over it, I think. 05:06:42 :-) 05:06:45 eli: I agree with you, `sarcasm' is a humorous form of ``not'' :) 05:06:47 :-) 05:07:37 morning! 05:07:47 arcfide: There is a conventional (ie, "broken") repl too -- and you can even sort of use that, if you really want to suffer the consequences of such an r5rs-like limited world. 05:07:48 morning, foof! 05:07:55 foof: I've been reading your code 05:07:56 peter_12: Chez Scheme actually works slightly differently, in that when things are evaluated (after compilation or such), they are treated as a series of expressions to be evaluated as they are read in, as if they were typed on the REPL. This means that you can, in fact, call different functions BAR if you do (BAR) (IMPORT DIFF-BAR) (BAR) in Chez Scheme. 05:08:50 arcfide: that is the way I imagine Scheme working: as if typing at the REPL 05:08:54 MzScheme is a good command shell 05:09:09 rudybot_: eval bleh 05:09:11 eli: your sandbox is ready 05:09:11 eli: error: reference to undefined identifier: bleh 05:09:11 peter_12: Most of the #define's are just to hide the implementation detail that the types are all represented as a union. 05:09:38 eli: I just wanted to verify the way PLT worked. When you live in PLT, it makes a little more sense to think about the code as not really have side effects when modules are loaded because the environment is basically determined ahead of time when all the modules are linked up, IIUC. 05:09:40 rudybot_ uses the repl semantics. 05:09:40 foof: yes. Nice encapsulation. I meant why not functions instead of macros. I imagine you are thinking speed 05:10:13 arcfide: Yes. Some of us like to refer to that as "sanity". 05:10:15 peter_12: PLT takes a different stand on how interaction should work, and they stick pretty religiously to it. That's probably better than getting a half in half out setup if you care about that. 05:10:35 Actually, they also get used as lvalues, so they couldn't be functions. 05:10:39 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:44 eli: Some of us consider it troublesome, but, hehe, some also call us insane. ;-) 05:10:46 arcfide: (see my earlier (define x (+ x 1)) comment too.) 05:10:56 eli: Does anyone use MzScheme as her login shell? 05:10:59 foof: ahh yes. I haven't been that far into the code yet. 05:11:02 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:11:28 I've read mostly header files so far. Now I'm staring at 3000 lines of sexp.c and eval.c 05:11:47 eli: Right, that's what gave me the thought. In Chez Scheme, since top level expressions are evaluated in order, then such things would result in two at the end of the evaluation of the two expressions, but only if they are direct, unwrapped expressions in Chez Scheme. 05:11:51 arcfide: No, "troublesome" quickly turns to "sane" when you try to do any of that with macros, and suffer the brokenness of the "non-troublesome" illusion. 05:12:06 sexp.c was written as a stand-alone library for reading and writing sexps 05:12:46 eli: I've done some macroing around, and I'm not convinced. I have seen the arguments, but, we've already had this discussion. ;-) 05:13:37 I frequently write Erlang code that builds a list which ends up backward, so I call lists:reverse at the very end to flip it around. This is a common idiom in functional languages. 05:14:08 eli: So long as I know how the system is going to behave, and it is consistent, then I'm okay. But, I usually see more about phase separation regarding macros than the treatment of unwrapped expressions when it comes to macros in PLT. 05:14:17 arcfide: What happens when a function is redefined as a macro? What happens when a macro is redefined as a function? (And no, I don't remember having *this* discussion, or at least this opinion: it's broken enough that I'd remember such a thing.) 05:14:35 jedc [n=jed1@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:14:45 Everyone jokes that I use Emacs as my login shell. 05:14:49 arcfide: I don't see how is phase separation related to all this. 05:15:15 foof: I know you are working on v0.2 but I hope you will set up a public repository and a mailing list soon. 05:15:20 eli: You just mentioned macro programming, and usually phase separation is the solution to the evil (thus far unnamed in this discussion) that is most commonly referenced. 05:15:35 Well, for some definition of evil. 05:16:04 foof: I'm reading your code after reading Tiny Scheme. It is quite different to say the least. 05:16:06 Macros, eww 05:16:08 peter_12: fwiw it looks I got the last of the gc bugs fixed yesterday, so I'll definitely put out a 0.2 release this week 05:16:23 foof: great 05:16:32 arcfide: No, I was talking about the amazing kind of exotic bugs you can have if your system has the mutation-semantics for definitions, and you try to redefine a function as a macro or back. 05:16:37 eli: Redefinitions of names are fine in my book, whether you redefine them as syntax or procedures. 05:17:25 Well, they're a lot easier with single argument eval. 05:17:49 eli: What kind of bugs do you mean? 05:18:06 arcfide: I'm sure that if I dig enough, I can come up with such bugs. Redefinitions are good when they *are* re-definitions; but it sounds like what Chez is doing on redefinitions is mutation -- which is very different. 05:18:13 So, umm, is it safe to set mzscheme as a login shell? 05:18:36 karlw: On some obscure level of safety. 05:19:23 eli: When Chez receives code, it goes left to right and evaluates every expression in turn. These expressions are generally modules, but they can be top level definitions and expressions. This does in fact mutate the top-level environment of the Scheme system. 05:19:53 arcfide: that is a very traditional Scheme approach, isn't it? 05:20:06 peter_12: I don't know if its traditional one. 05:20:12 s/its/it's 05:20:19 s/it's/it's a/ 05:20:23 arcfide: And does it behave differently inside modules, or is (define x (+ x 1)) going to work inside a module too? 05:20:45 eli: I'm worried that CIA-controlled lizardmen will take interest in pictures of my non-existant girlfriend unless I'm ``safe.'' 05:20:53 eli: Naturally, a module has different semantics. 05:20:55 :-) 05:21:33 arcfide: What happens when a module has (define x 1) (define x (+ x 1)) ? 05:21:35 eli: When it comes to definitions inside a module, they behave roughly the same as a (LET () ...) wrapping. 05:21:41 foof: no modules in chibi, right? 05:21:58 eli: You get a duplicate definition error. 05:22:08 arcfide: In that case, where's the difference between PLT and Chez? 05:22:43 arcfide: IOW, where is PLT "troublesome" compared to Chez? 05:22:52 eli: There isn't. The difference I was mentioning was that PLT wraps *everything* in modules. Chez Scheme leaves the top level to a different model, so you can get different behavior the moment you wrap a source file in a LET versus compiling a bunch of top-level definitions. 05:24:09 underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:24:09 -!- karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:24:29 arcfide: To quote something I said earlier: "arcfide: There is a conventional (ie, "broken") repl too -- and you can even sort of use that, if you really want to suffer the consequences of such an r5rs-like limited world." 05:24:41 One can make a case that having the different model is more convenient; one can also make the case that having a nice, consistent semantics throughout is more reliable. 05:24:53 Honestly, I'm not really sold on "modules". 05:24:59 karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:03 eli: I thought you said that any reading in of a file would be treated as if it were wrapped in a module? 05:25:17 peter_12: Well, sell yourself, quickly, or you'll be in pain. Modules are nice. 05:25:32 peter_12: Well, sell yourself, quickly, or you'll be in pain. Modules are nice. 05:26:03 arcfide: Not if your file doesn't have a `#lang' at the top, and is not in a (module ...) expression. 05:26:15 eli: Oh, I see, so, what happens then? 05:26:19 And then you'll need to run your file with something like `mzscheme -r'. 05:26:20 eli: What language is used? 05:26:33 And what happens then is obvious: you find yourself in a world of shit. 05:26:34 I just don't see the need for something special like modules. Just a closure that is automatically called seems to be plenty. 05:26:52 peter_12: You don't need anything except the lambda calculus, either. 05:27:12 arcfide: I'm not that pure. I just don't see modules as a big deal. 05:27:44 modules are a big deal 05:27:48 eli: What I'm thinking of is during my interactive expirements and developement, I have essentially a REPL session stored in a file that I want to run, so I load up a REPL and LOAD it, and then continue playing. How would I do this in PLT? 05:28:15 http://clisp.cons.org/clash.html 05:28:17 I program all day in a somewhat-lisp-like language (aka JavaScript) and it doesn't have any special "modules" features yet creating modules takes almost zero effort. 05:28:34 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@walnut.naist.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:34 peter_12: Modules are a significant means of abstracting large blocks of code into structured interfaces, this is a good thing, and they work. 05:28:38 arcfide: You can do pretty much the same thing. 05:28:46 how do you create a module in javascript 05:28:57 arcfide: yes the concept of modules is a good thing and it works. But the language doesn't need constructs for it 05:29:06 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 05:29:10 eli: Okay, from everyone I've ever talked to, and my own experience with the R6RS stuff, I had trouble doing that. 05:29:26 soupdragon: var module = (function() {return {foo: 1}})(); 05:29:33 That creates a "module". 05:29:52 isn't that an objct 05:29:55 isn't that an object* 05:29:59 soupdragon: yes it is an object 05:30:02 arcfide: The R6RS stuff omitted a definition for a repl exactly because it is broken in a way that makes it very difficult to define. That doesn't mean that PLT (in it's usual mode) doesn't have a repl. 05:30:28 ok so what you are saying is that you only need objects not modules I guess 05:30:31 soupdragon: but "module" is an idea. Like an "object" is an idea. In Scheme an object can be a function. 05:30:35 I suspect that's not true but I don't really know why 05:30:52 eli: Okay, I guess that's what I was running into. I was trying to load some libraries, and then experiment with some other things on a REPL and it kept complaining about one thing after the other. 05:31:02 soupdragon: it seems to be true in my experience. 05:31:07 arcfide: You mean in PLT? 05:31:21 eli: Yeah. It was a while ago, but yeah. 05:31:30 hm 05:31:33 peter_12: Modules aren't objects though. That's an ML-ism, I think, and its weird. 05:32:13 peter_12: That's definitely not any replacement for modules. In the same way that (list (cons 'foo 1)) isn't remotely close to having a module system in any level higher than assembler code. 05:32:38 arcfide: Did you try to get an R6RS REPL? 05:32:39 arcfide: Scheme presents OOP object concept as represented by functions in the implementation. A Java programmer wouldn't think that is an object but it is. 05:32:47 s/Scheme/SICP/ 05:33:23 eli: Yes, I tried. 05:34:07 eli: it is a replacement for modules to a large group of programmers in the world and it works. 05:34:22 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:34:48 arcfide: In that case, the sanest thing to do would be to use it in DrScheme, with the module language, and using `#lang r6rs'. That gives you a repl-like interactions that "mostly" works. 05:34:58 ("mostly" because of the usual repl-related issues.) 05:35:04 eli: Eh....okay, but, bleh. 05:35:16 arcfide: bleh what? 05:35:21 eli: DrScheme. 05:35:48 eli: But to be clear, I can get a nice, REPL like semantics for the standard language for loading in scheme files interactively, right? 05:35:52 arcfide: And why should I care? The functionality is there, if you choose not to use it, then that's perfectly fine. 05:36:12 eli: I mean, loading in sets of top-level expressions listed in order in some file. 05:36:38 arcfide: For most languages, yes. (Like I said, if you accept the consequences.) 05:36:44 eli: You don't have to care. :-) that's why I said, okay, because at least I can get something like it, and that means I can do tests, it's just not what I would prefer. 05:37:04 eli: Other than the different semantics, what kind of consequences should I expect? 05:37:37 peter_12: The fact that there's a large group of programmers that think that association lists are a good substitute for a module system is irrelevant. I suspect that a good portion of these people also consider notepad a respectable editor for developing code. 05:38:01 Anywyas, i guess I need to get to bed. Thanks for clearing up my troubles with PLT's REPL, eli. 05:38:18 arcfide: Re the DrScheme thing -- it is possible to do that on the repl, but it takes some work, and nobody cared so far. 05:38:21 eli: When I have to test some things on PLT, I'll be sure to gripe some more to you and you can show me how to do it. ;-) 05:38:33 eli: I'm surprised you would say it is "irrelevant". Aren't all programming language features designed to please the programmers using the language? 05:38:38 arcfide: Re the different semantics and the obvious toplevel pitfalls, nothing is changed. 05:38:54 arcfide: Sure. 05:39:19 eli: Thanks. Oh, but as a caveat, can I list a series of modules in a single file and then LOAD it with this REPL-style setup? 05:39:40 I'm sure I could copy and paste the modules in, right? 05:39:55 Yes. You'll just need to require them with (require 'foo) -- the quote refers to a module that was defined this way. 05:40:09 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:40:12 Aaah, okay. Great. 05:40:31 arcfide: See also http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/load-lang.html 05:40:35 Okay, thanks. 05:41:28 ejs0 [n=eugen@253-213-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 05:41:38 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has quit ["Sleep."] 05:41:48 peter_12: What I'm saying (or "we're", if you include others) is that modules are an important and extremely useful tool/language-feature. Your reply is that there's a large group of people who use a hack instead. The fact that they use a hack doesn't make that feature less important or less useful. 05:42:24 eli: I don't judge it as a hack. 05:42:33 eli: Can one use a different CSS style for PLT docs? 05:42:48 karlw: I think so. Never tried it though. 05:43:00 peter_12: That's a limited view. 05:43:32 I prefer bigger text. 05:43:40 karlw: greasemonkey 05:44:02 I have strabismus. 05:44:21 eli: Do you agree that it is possible to try a language or a language feature and see it as unnecessary or undesirable and that different people will judge the value of feature differently? 05:45:05 peter_12: For example, how do I provide a bunch of functions and provide all of them? Some of them? How do I define a bunch of mutually recursive functions in such a module? How do I define one name, but provide it as another? How do I import a whole module into a lexical context? Part of a module? Rename some binding? How do I get separate compilation? How can I require some module with a prefix? etc etc etc. 05:45:49 eli: there are different ways to solve problems 05:45:55 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:46:25 peter_12: Let me guess: these ways involves people shouting "eureka!" when they discover that a round shape can be used for transport? 05:47:03 (Re your question -- yes; and believe me, in the Scheme camp the question of whether a module is a required language feature was infinitely debated, and that's a language with a much better toolset for syntactic abstraction.) 05:47:14 eli: no. There are some people who like bicycles and some people who like 4x4s. 05:47:59 peter_12: To clarify my comment: "different ways to solve problems" doesn't apply well to a module system when your solution is an association list. 05:48:21 It means that you will need to reinvent many wheels, tediously, and badly. 05:48:29 *karlw* yawns 05:50:05 ``It's remarkable how much energy in the standardization of Lisp dialects has been dissipated in arguments that are literally over nothing: Should nil be an ordinary name? Should the value of nil be a symbol? Should it be a list? Should it be a pair? In Scheme, nil is an ordinary name, which we use in this section as a variable whose value is the end-of-list marker (just as true is an ordinary variable that has a tru 05:50:05 e value). Other dialects of Lisp, including Common Lisp, treat nil as a special symbol. The authors of this book, who have endured too many language standardization brawls, would like to avoid the entire issue. Once we have introduced quotation in section 2.3, we will denote the empty list as '() and dispense with the variable nil entirely.'' 05:50:26 eli: Well you are making very absolute, negative judgements of my opinions. As though I'm wrong and should just snap out of it. I've lived without any language support for modules and I've seen work in practice with no issues. I've also used modules in various languages. It seems to me that modules are just a way of over-engineering things. 05:50:45 ---SICP, chapter 2, footnote 10 05:51:26 karlw: timely quotation. 05:53:30 eli: for whatever it is worth, JavaScript has support for OOP and I've stopped using its support because I prefer doing OOP a different way. So even when there is language support for higher level constructs, I opt not to use them in favor of using something simpler. 05:53:32 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@o199-56.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:54:09 peter_12: Use tinytalk 05:54:48 karlw: I don't even really like OOP 05:56:15 I prefer lazy scheme when I'm feeling idiosyncratic 05:57:20 reprore [n=reprore@o199-56.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has joined #scheme 05:57:22 But tinytalk is good if you need OOP. 05:58:16 peter_12: re the OOP point -- perhaps JS has made the wrong design decisions? 05:58:59 peter_12: And te my "absolute, negative judgements" -- this discussion is like trying to talk about the advantages of `lambda' with someone who uses C. 05:59:18 Such C programmers will often say that they can do everything they want without it. 05:59:33 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051147170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:59:40 ...and they're right, of course. 06:00:09 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DDC0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:00:33 eli: "perhaps JS has made the wrong design decisions?" Perhaps it has. My point is perhaps the people developing modules systems have too. 06:00:46 or better. Perhaps I think they have. 06:02:36 Some woodworkers choose to use hand tools even though power tools are faster. The power tool users think the hand tool users are idiots wasting their time. 06:02:48 The hand tool users are enjoying their craft. 06:03:22 That analogy doesn't carry over to CS, or we'd have people who enjoy programming turing machines for a living. 06:03:57 eli: it does carry over. Some people enjoy programming in Scheme, others in C++, others in assembly. 06:04:34 some people like parser generators. Others prefer to write them by hand. 06:04:43 peter_12: Such questions in PL can usually be put in concrete light. It is probably easy to come up with code examples that show all kinds of problems with the prototype model that JS chose. You can't really say the same about "module systems" since that includes lots of very different things (and also the JS hack, probably) -- but you can limit the discussion to a particular module system. In this case, my point 06:04:43 of reference is the PLT system. If you think that PLT's module system has made some bad design decision, then you should elaborate with specific+concrete examples. 06:06:13 (No, it does not carry over because there are certain advantages for hand-crafted products that you cannot get with powertools. If the same holds for a programming language, then it means that the language is deficient in some way. IOW, a "PL powertool" should not make certain programs impossible.) 06:06:33 -!- raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9ba03cb93755cc57] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:09 eli: It does carry over. If Assembly is the hand tools then think of the advantages of programming directly in assembly. 06:07:20 there are advantages 06:07:26 Such as? 06:07:45 you've never heard of any? 06:08:09 I did, but can you answer my question? 06:08:19 compact executables. 06:08:36 And? 06:09:07 I don't think you need to program in assembly to get compact executables for the most part. Maybe on certain embedded systems where you want extremely fine tuned control...? 06:09:24 eli: one is enough for argument sake 06:09:39 OK, in that case there are many languages that are much more compact. 06:09:39 jedc: that extremely fine tuned control is the hand tools advantage. 06:10:14 peter_12: This is why things like Forth are a common thing to use when you really care about compactness. 06:10:29 my question is: can you think of a situation where you would want to program in assembly, not where there is an advantage to it. 06:10:42 peter_12: But generally speaking, any higher level language is more compact than assembly, given enough code. 06:10:53 jedc: you just suggested a situation. No I cannot think of a situation where *I* would want to. 06:11:51 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:11:55 eli: my point is different people like working with different tools. Some people willingly and happily give up tools that others could not live without. That idea definitely does carry over to programming. 06:12:39 and just because many people find language-level support for module systems essential. It doesn't mean everyone does or should. 06:13:22 and not all people interested in Scheme will find the idea of modules a compelling one 06:13:32 and they aren't wrong! 06:13:34 peter_12: That's a completely different point than what you said earlier. If this is your argument, then the analogy is that "some people just like working with association lists instead of a module system" -- and that's an argument I have no way (or desire) to argue with. 06:15:07 (For example, the same argument-that-cannot-be-countered-concretely applies to first class functions, to immutable values, to lexical scope, to macros, to object systems, and to practically every PL feature under the sun.) 06:15:42 eli: my original point was 'Honestly, I'm not really sold on "modules".' which was a short way to write what I just wrote. 06:17:42 peter_12: If by that you mean "*I* *subjectively* don't like module systems" then there is no argument. If the goal is to write code productively (faster, fewer bugs, more expressive), and if your point is that you don't need module system(s), then this point is a completely different one. 06:18:52 By "I", I mean me. 06:19:28 by "sold" I mean I'm not convinced they allow me "to write code productively (faster, fewer bugs, more expressive)" 06:19:49 peter_12: not yet 06:20:11 foof: You mean it will have modules? 06:20:16 yes 06:20:20 gah! 06:20:30 ? 06:20:39 peter_12: No disrespect, but these two sentences imply that your understanding -- as reflected by things that convince your -- is flawed. 06:20:56 foof: eli and I have been discussing the merits of modules. 06:21:43 eli: How is my understanding objectively flawed? 06:21:48 underspecified_ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-219.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:21:59 *objectively* being the important part. 06:22:29 peter_12: You're arguing (subjectively) against modules having any benefits. 06:22:41 no I'm not 06:23:06 eli: I said I'm not convinced they have benefits that are compelling to me. 06:23:08 In that case I no longer know what the meaning of "sold" is. 06:24:02 For all I know at this point, you're not writing code at all, which will vacuously make your statement subjectively true. 06:24:07 it is a subjective argument yet I'm being told I'm objectively flawed 06:24:26 eli: I do write code. 06:25:59 He is arguing that not everyone finds them as beneficial as you do. i.e. some people don't feel like they need need module systems. 06:26:51 jedc: yes that is what I'm saying. 06:27:05 and apparently I have to find them as beneficial as eli does 06:28:34 -!- reprore [n=reprore@o199-56.pubnet.titech.ac.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:30:17 peter_12: I don't know what kind of an argument you expect me to say then. I gave you a long list of things that I can do with a module system, and you just waved it all with a "there are different ways to solve problems". If you really want to discuss this in a way that reaches somewhere, then you need to provide a concise solution to these problems with association lists, or explain why they are not important. 06:30:50 jedc: Everyone who is a programmer could use a module system as an advantage; the fact that some don't is irrelevant to this point -- and that (the irrelevancy) is objective. 06:31:26 eli: "could use a module system as an advantage". How can you say that so confidently? 06:32:22 Years, possibly decades, of professional, well respected coding? 06:32:25 Just a tought. 06:32:27 peter_12: See above. If you really want I'll repeat the list of features. 06:32:29 "thought". 06:32:33 eli: That just is not true. If a programmer despises modules systems then using one surely won't be an advantage as he will hate every moment of his work. 06:32:58 (I don't despise module systems.) 06:33:07 the world is not black and white 06:33:14 *eli* sighs 06:33:29 eli: ditto 06:34:05 peter_12: The same exact argument holds for any feature of a high-level language. If a programmer despises fact that he can write "x=y*12/z" instead of 3-register instructions then he'll hate writing code in any modern langauge. 06:34:27 This kind of argument is a subjective one that I never wanted to (or did) argue with. 06:35:17 eli: yes this kind of argument holds for any feature of a high-level language. That is why I'm surprised you would think there is a right and wrong side of the module system argument. 06:35:23 Practically any progress in PL (throughout its history from before computers existed) can be negated in the same way. 06:35:37 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 06:35:39 anyway, time for bed. I've thought about module systems many times before and will surely think about them more in the future. 06:36:14 I take "right" = something that allows us to write better programs; "wrong" = the opposite. 06:36:28 "better" is the problem in that sentence 06:36:39 eli: I'm not saying a module system is not useful. But your argument is just as subjective. Emacs allows me to write better programs, you us vim... 06:36:43 it is not objective 06:36:49 If you define "right" = something that looks aesthetically pleasing to my eyes then we're not talking about the same thing. 06:37:19 night 06:37:42 "better" is very objective: project sizes, development times, debugging costs, product complexity -- all are features measured in real world quantities (eg, time and cash). 06:38:15 (i'm trying to leave ) 06:38:18 jedc: (In the above sense, my argument is very much not subjective.) 06:38:51 peter_12: Feel free. If you don't reply you can read it tomorrow (when it will be much easier to ignore...) 06:39:12 eli: there is very little chance that all parameters of the better equation go up together or that everyones better equation is the same and has the same sign for the same inputs 06:39:14 it is subjective to say that module systems will improve those quantities for everybody for every project 06:39:53 there are #b10 types of feating creeperism 06:40:24 good and bad 06:40:56 peter_12: There is *extremely* little chance that adding a module system will lower any of these parameters, and a very good chance that they will increase. (Backed by countless people, groups, and companies, in both academia and industry.) 06:41:37 I disagree but at least that is admission of some small amount of grey area 06:42:35 Sure you will, it's a direct (mis)use of an argument by authority. It can only compensate my inability to dedicate three days of time to discuss things thoroughly. 06:42:50 npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 06:43:42 a module system was probably a good choice *yawn* 06:43:54 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-189-163.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Success] 06:44:08 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-176-41.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 06:44:18 eli: I know the idea of modules of code is a good way to organize things. I'm just not sure special language-level support is needed beyond what Scheme already provides. 06:45:22 another way to say it is I think Scheme already has enough special language-level support for modules 06:45:24 peter_12: There have been countless attempts are making a module-system-like feature on top of a module-less scheme. Most likely an order of magnitude more than in any other language. 06:45:26 *karlw* sits back and watches the fireworks 06:46:00 peter_12: You know how you have to do a different procedure is every scheme to load a SRFI? 06:46:22 Just reading through c.l.s (or other public Scheme media) should give you about two solutions per year. 06:46:49 soupdragon: yes 06:46:50 (That's a conservative estimate, btw.) 06:47:17 ok I'm really going. Thanks for the lively debate. 06:47:19 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has left #scheme 06:48:52 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.134.184] has joined #scheme 06:48:52 I'm moderate as far as R6 is concerned. 06:48:58 -!- npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 06:49:45 I don't really like case sensitive identifiers. 06:50:14 -!- easy4 [n=easy4@c-68-45-192-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:51:21 I was going to say: Having a specified multi-file programming protocol (aka module system) would solve that. 06:51:27 but I guess he didn't want to hear it 06:51:55 presumably so he can continue thinking module systems are not important 06:52:23 is plt scheme the only scheme that provides a module system at the language level? 06:52:37 My assumption was rather that he didn't want to hear it so he can get to bed. 06:52:40 It always disappoints me to see arguments like the one that peter_12 brought to the table. 06:53:01 gnomon: why is that? 06:53:22 jedc: No, far from it. (And these days, I it's becoming more and more difficult to find a scheme without one.) 06:53:41 Case insensitivity is more of a preference. 06:54:05 soupdragon, because it's such a well documented failure of imagination. It's like working in a museum and watching people trip over the same spot in the carpet for thirty years straight. 06:54:14 the fun thing is every scheme still uses *different* module systems 06:54:40 gnomon: :) 06:54:57 we have this problem with prologs too 06:54:57 no communication/interaction between different implementations 06:54:58 eli, heh. 06:55:24 eli, props to your patience, by the way. In your position I would long since have lapsed into petulant sarcasm. 06:55:40 You only need case sensitivity in non-latin encodings. 06:55:41 The "museum" added a nice flavor to the picture I obviously made. 06:56:12 Well, it's such an old argument - it's been polished to a fine shine by the hands of thousands of tourists by now. 06:56:24 There's even a dent in the staircase leading up to it. 06:56:41 Exactly. 06:57:22 I don't understand, Are there a lot of people that don't think module systems are important? 06:57:22 I was just assuming he was a 1 in a thousand kind of guy 07:00:53 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-131.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:03:12 *karlw* goes back to using DOS 07:04:37 I'm not exactly clear on what 'modules' are. Are libraries as defined in the r6rs considered a module system? 07:05:14 jedc: "multi-file programming protocol" is some kind of vague explanation I gave 07:05:53 I think part of the problem may be that he (as he stated initially) programs all day in another language without using modules. I can see how it might be difficult to appreciate the usefulness of something you don't actually use. 07:07:32 It seemed that he argued mainly based on personal experience too, without knowing too much about how other people write large collections of (Scheme) code. 07:07:53 *Maddas* can see how one can easily dismiss very useful features as useless from that point of view :-) 07:08:09 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:08:26 There needs to be a standard for code sharing. 07:09:11 pastebot! 07:09:16 One more complex than (load my-file) 07:09:23 *Maddas* runs and evades the objects thrown after him :-) 07:10:10 karlw: I completely agree that modules are very important and useful. I was just trying to follow the discussion (while thinking aloud) while reading the backlog :-) 07:10:23 jedc: yes. 07:10:40 *Maddas* finds it hard to discuss many useful features and properties of programming languages with other people who've never used languages with these features/properties 07:11:15 (Or who've used them only in a university course and don't appreciate how useful they are in large, real-world systems) 07:11:31 Also, hey there, gnomon ! 07:11:49 How are things in Scheme land, anyway? 07:12:16 Maddas: That's exactly why I raised the `lambda' point -- as a feature that is present in JS too, and often the subject of arguments with people who never used it. (Or replace "never" by "infrequently" or "occasionally".) 07:14:21 eli: Yeah; reading up, I am truly impressed by your patient and even-tempered mode of argumentation. 07:15:15 *Maddas* finds it hard to not to be surly discussing things he finds important but others don't; it must be much more difficult for people who _really_ know (and care about) what they're arguing about 07:15:37 People always tell me that lambda is too complicated and ``real programmers'' don't need it. 07:16:10 *sjamaan* sighs 07:16:20 Hey there, sjamaan. 07:16:24 hi Maddas 07:16:37 wingo [n=wingo@243.Red-88-17-204.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 07:18:02 barney [n=bernhard@p549A2520.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 07:18:06 Maddas: :) patience is not one of my best features... 07:18:15 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.134.184] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:18 *Maddas* is even more impressed by eli, then :-) 07:19:22 *Maddas* now imagines him as a large and burly man with curly hair who can win coding duels against Oleg one-handedly 07:19:23 Hi eli. 07:19:29 (Sorry, got carried away there) 07:19:52 I like Javascript. 07:20:01 *karlw* ducks. 07:20:05 eli: I am having a problem understanding call/input-url 07:20:20 "lambda is too complicated" is not correct 07:20:23 Is there any good online resource (Blog, forum, something of that sort) to read that would keep me up to date with noteworthy things happening around R6RS or the Scheme community in general? I'm only aware of Planet Scheme so far, and I was hoping that there was more news that I was missing out on. 07:20:29 the problem is that lambda incurs garbage 07:20:43 Maddas: Well, not exactly a coding duel but I did had some discussions with him. 07:20:45 He called lambda trash! Chase him down, chase him down! 07:20:46 Maddas: I am betting that and comp.lang.scheme is the best. 07:20:58 karlw: I like JS too, mostly. 07:21:36 the exection of a lambda term is not very predictable whereas with first order functions like C you know exactly what can be stack allocated 07:21:42 r2q2: `call/input-url' is not something I used, but what's the problem? 07:21:48 *Maddas* adds a mental note to bow before eli, should he ever be privy to his company 07:22:03 *eli* blushes 07:23:06 soupdragon: Aren't you talking about orthogonal things, like dynamic memory management? 07:23:19 I'm saying it's not orthogonal 07:23:19 s/dynamic/automatic/ (or something) 07:23:29 eli: I am lisppasting it 07:23:56 you are opening pandoras box so there is a valid reason to not have lambda in some procedural languages 07:24:19 eli: But I was trying to do an HTTP post to a REST API and I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. 07:24:59 hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-J 07:25:55 that's cool 07:27:15 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051147170.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 07:27:23 r2q2: What was the error? 07:27:41 *karlw* writes a JSON parser in Javascript. 07:28:06 eli: Sorry I am trying to reconstruct the error. 07:30:08 well, good night 07:32:03 -!- karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 07:35:51 eli: Can I specify an authenticated http session in the url in plt scheme? 07:36:12 r2q2: What kind of authentication? 07:37:18 http://username:password@twitter.com/statuses/update.xml 07:37:56 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:39:07 -!- wingo [n=wingo@243.Red-88-17-204.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:39:29 r2q2: Looking at the code, it looks like it doesn't send the headers for the username/password. 07:39:40 r2q2: Shouldn't be difficult to add it though. 07:40:59 Oh I add that in the header. 07:41:51 Ah. In that case it should work -- I think that the code just constructs a version of the URL that has just the path that is sent as the "GET" line. 07:42:35 (It's not really a good library -- I have plans to write a new and much more complete solution, with a bunch of features that are sorely missing.) 07:47:14 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.71.10] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 07:48:08 Yea I got that from the complaints of other people. 07:50:41 The saddest or most hilarious thing about the plt scheme documentation is that interfacing to couchdb seems to be an exercise to the reader or something. 07:51:14 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/web-server/stateless.html 07:51:31 It should be easy to use this interface to create store for databases like SQLite, CouchDB, or BerkeleyDB. 07:51:45 I'm probably misreading that or something. 07:53:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:54:12 r2q2: I don't know about these things too well, but the stateless language is basically supposed to make continuations and closures and whatever -- the whole state is saved in the URL, so I'm not sure that you'll want to use it for a DB interface. 07:54:42 r2q2: But that's just about everything I know about it, so you'll have much better chances of asking it on the mailing list. 07:59:14 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-219.naist.jp] has quit [] 08:01:02 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:01:14 When I experimented with CPS for the web in PLT scheme I eventually got really confused. 08:01:37 I probably should read a paper on it before I actually do it again 08:01:55 r2q2 you can use CWCC or RESET/SHIFT etc to avoid writing things in CPS 08:02:44 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:51 Uh I think I meant to say using send/suspend... in plt scheme. I used the wrong noun sorry. 08:04:32 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 08:06:53 eli: Anyways thanks for the help. 08:07:02 r2q2: One typical mistake (that I did too, somewhat intentionally) is to mix state in -- since navigation translates to calling continuations, you get the same kind of confusion when you jump back to an earlier point, but with a side-effect that happened later. 08:07:34 But in general the mailing list should be good for such questions -- Jay is very actively working on it. 08:08:22 underspecified_ [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-219.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:10:09 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:12:37 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:16 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 08:17:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:29 -!- gnomon 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is it about tail recursion? 14:16:03 oh rather than (cons x ) 14:16:05 ok 14:17:06 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:22:09 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 14:23:43 avoiding the recursion isn't really necessary though; you are just trading heap space for stack space 14:28:04 isn't it heap vs stack & heap 14:28:20 in the case of (cons x ) you use more overall? 14:28:53 no 14:29:26 doM_ [n=doM@nova.polymtl.ca] has joined #scheme 14:30:02 how not? 14:30:05 it's very implementation dependant; you are trading a cons cell for a (cons x <>) stack frame 14:31:09 -!- doM_ is now known as doM^ 14:31:26 if you make a list of length 100, you would have 100 stack frames at the end, and then work up to 99 stack frames and 1 cons, 98 stack frames and two conses ... 14:31:49 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/browse_thread/thread/af536c55e0c27323/4a11ef50fc17091 14:31:51 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/lkbakw 14:31:57 (about halfway in) 14:32:59 I see very cleever 14:33:26 demanotto [n=chatzill@n230.s047.m-zone.jp] has joined #scheme 14:34:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-9.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:36:55 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051052053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:52:08 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:53:03 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53:55 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051052053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 14:55:12 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-101-138.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:56:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:56:16 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-2.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:56:44 -!- Mestoco [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:33 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:52 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:58 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:02:42 -!- demanotto [n=chatzill@n230.s047.m-zone.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:03:53 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 15:04:08 incubot: leave it to cleever! 15:04:11 But I guess I'll leave you alone now and call my girlfriend now. 15:04:29 incubot, we'll call your girlfriend for you, don't worry 15:04:32 girlfriend ran away, parents died - stuff like that 15:04:50 incubot: klutometis is dead? 15:04:53 So, it does actually do the native code compilation, but Petite Chez acts as a kind of loader if you will. 15:05:16 incubot: Chez Caput. 15:05:19 Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. 15:07:46 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:09:18 Is it true that the R7RS work is taking R5RS as its starting point? 15:09:21 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.144.196] has joined #scheme 15:09:29 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:37 that sounds wise 15:11:41 so I doubt it :p 15:13:09 incubot: you don't like to speak about death? 15:13:12 perhaps it's not death metal that he was listening to... 15:13:28 incubot: respice finem! 15:13:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 15:15:59 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #scheme 15:17:23 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@24-107-112-153.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:22:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 15:23:31 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:23:38 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:16 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 15:26:53 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:50 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 15:33:08 bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #scheme 15:34:47 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:36:34 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.186.133] has joined #scheme 15:37:12 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:22 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 15:54:38 -!- tizoc is now known as tizoc_ 15:57:06 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:51 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:27 http://www.scheme-survey.org/results.scm 15:59:29 heh 16:00:45 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:03:33 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 16:05:19 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 16:05:20 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:48 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 16:16:03 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:56 mbishop: plt is the radiant sun from which complaints expand 16:19:25 mbishop: I imagine more people have tried plt. It could be a very small percentage of people that have tried plt that dislike it. 16:22:11 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:22:32 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:23:45 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:13 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 16:25:27 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:27:57 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:58 I like'd how stalin's complaints make a sentence :P 16:28:16 also someone dislikes chibi scheme for the reason "foof" :( 16:29:09 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has joined #scheme 16:31:09 Hiato [n=Hiato@dsl-245-14-154.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:32:38 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051052053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 16:32:53 first the reason was "ilikefoof,butnothisfalsemodesty" but klutometris broke it up 16:34:06 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:34:49 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:35:25 -!- tjafk2 is now known as timj 16:36:19 p1dzkl: heh, another bug; i really should have a page with the verbatim rationales 16:36:30 the word associations can be ambiguous 16:38:50 bit is crap. bus is crap. chez is crap. chicken is crap. cpscm is crap. dream is crap. edscheme is crap. elk is crap. galapagos is crap. gauche is crap. gscheme is crap. heist is c 16:38:50 rap. hobbit is crap. hscheme is crap. ikarus is crap. inlab is crap. ironscheme is crap. jaja is crap. jscheme is crap. kawa is crap. ksi is crap. ksm is crap. larceny is crap. librep is crap. llava is crap. luna is crap. mit is crap. minor is crap. 16:39:20 ah crap! 16:39:46 "scheme" is great, but every implementation sucks! 16:40:50 so what you're getting at is that PLT is the way 16:40:56 I didn't see it in that list :P 16:41:31 you do have an almost-alphabetical list that stops before p, though, so maybe not 16:41:42 I stopped at an arbitrary point 16:42:08 i didnt realize there were so many scheme implementations. i thought there were like 5 16:45:24 Is it "every implementation sucks!" or "every *other* implementation sucks!"? 16:46:27 demanotto [n=chatzill@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:51:16 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:27 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:52:51 I hope, incubot will index jonrafkind's posts and will use them as often as possible :))) 16:53:34 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:23 Ragnaroek [i=54a67184@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c636764e38aff264] has joined #scheme 17:00:45 -!- pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:58 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:02:50 forcer [n=forcer@d102163.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #scheme 17:14:55 -!- DasIch [n=DasIch@p5B3A6C0C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:16:16 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 17:18:39 nijh2s [n=ngxy@p2249-ipbfp304fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:19:15 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has joined #scheme 17:23:46 -!- Hiato [n=Hiato@dsl-245-14-154.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:24:11 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:25:49 -!- nijh2s [n=ngxy@p2249-ipbfp304fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/4.0.0 Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux)"] 17:26:31 he forgot bigloo. and that's a good thing (tm) 17:27:40 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:36:26 He didn't list Gambit either, which makes sense. 17:38:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 17:41:53 I wonder what makes it so hard to implement a good Scheme. 17:43:02 flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p5080A464.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:43:31 Like many hard problems, it takes time, persistence, and careful thought to write a good language implementation. 17:43:44 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:45:46 and "good" is subjective so someone will always judge an implementation as "bad" 17:50:34 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:52:11 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 17:52:26 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 17:54:50 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.144.196] has quit [] 17:55:15 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has joined #scheme 18:04:30 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 18:04:59 Well yeah, but there are baselines; does it have memory leaks, how much of the standards does it implement &c. 18:07:23 Scheme is a conceptually simple language, and it's possible to implement it simply, so many people do. 18:07:49 But they don't all spend the time it takes to evolve a simplistic implementation into a fast, stable, full-featured one. 18:15:42 wingo [n=wingo@243.Red-88-17-204.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:20:56 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 18:24:57 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:37:12 npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 18:39:33 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.125.180] has joined #scheme 18:39:56 -!- demanotto [n=chatzill@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 18:44:40 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 18:44:49 debian-br 18:45:12 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:45:39 moghar [n=user@157.185.jawnet.pl] has joined #scheme 18:56:07 mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 18:57:31 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:00:03 -!- mreggen_ [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:03:43 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:11:49 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:46 incubot: Part of a Neanderthal man's skull has been dredged up from the North Sea, in the first confirmed find of its kind. 19:15:50 I am also strongly opposed to the introduction of SYNTAX-CASE (which they haven't confirmed in the documents, but which I've heard confirmation of elsewhere), and I'm not fond of the condition system's design. (Consider what might be written now as (ERROR "foo bar baz" QUUX ZOT) instead being written as (RAISE (CONDITION (&ERROR) (&MESSAGE (MESSAGE "foo bar baz")) (&IRRITANTS (IRRITANTS (LIST QUUX ZOT))))).) 19:15:59 vgeddes [n=vgeddes@dsl-245-176-107.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:16:08 -!- npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 19:23:55 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:24:13 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:24:21 pdponze [n=user@144.85.124.11] has joined #scheme 19:30:11 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-211-141.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:11 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has quit [No route to host] 19:32:28 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:37:16 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.121.200] has joined #scheme 19:40:40 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:38 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-245-43.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 19:56:27 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:01:21 npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:06:36 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:12 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 20:16:07 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:18:13 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #scheme 20:23:24 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:23:30 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-205-48.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:40 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 20:29:12 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:06 -!- CSdread__ is now known as CSdread_ 20:33:24 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-141-154-208-150.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:47 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 20:33:57 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:43 -!- npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:47 npe [i=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 20:36:54 -!- CSdread__ is now known as CSdread_ 20:37:23 bona nit 20:37:57 -!- ejs0 [n=eugen@253-213-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:13 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-205-48.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:42:18 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.125.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:24 -!- rmorris [n=user@209.120.179.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:54:20 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 20:55:51 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:31 -!- doM^ [n=doM@nova.polymtl.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 21:04:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:25 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67184@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c636764e38aff264] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:13:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:00 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:15:44 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.210.64] has joined #scheme 21:18:50 -!- pdponze [n=user@144.85.124.11] has left #scheme 21:31:04 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:32 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:49 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:29 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051052053.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 21:35:30 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:58 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 21:49:26 benny99 [n=benny@p5486DC91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:51:11 hi, any ideas why 'this happens' ? http://pastebin.com/d4fb4b944 21:55:44 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:51 benny99: when you use foo or when you define it does that happen? 21:57:05 when I try to use it 21:57:18 (foo '(x)) - for example 21:57:19 what version of scheme48 (looks like an error from it) are you using? 21:57:30 I'm using mit-scheme 21:57:35 benny99: (bla ...) means one or more... probably. 21:57:42 7.7.1 21:57:56 you don't have a pattern for (foo rest) 21:58:41 when rest is the empty string 21:58:46 er 21:58:48 empty list 21:59:10 sladegen, roderic, ah, ok :) 21:59:14 so i guess that's just mit-scheme's way of erroring otu 21:59:18 out* 21:59:44 (bla ...) does not make any sense here I guess :/ 21:59:50 yep, probably 22:00:40 thanks for making me feel stupid again ;) 22:00:49 yeah even worse. (_ bla) would be enough. if you want to pass one list. 22:01:48 and it should work for empty list, too, then. 22:02:06 yep 22:02:10 lisppaste: url? 22:02:10 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 22:02:19 in the future. 22:02:26 though I could use a second pattern for the empty list then hm ? 22:03:39 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.47.12.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 22:03:47 right 22:04:16 no, no need for second pattern. unless you really mean a list of blahs which are to be transposed. as it is you could just as well define foo as a function. 22:05:38 benny99 pasted "updated" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81896 22:06:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 22:06:24 there is no benefit in making foo a macro i.e. you are not using macros for what they were designed to do. syntactical transformation. 22:06:49 sladegen, yep, it's complete nonesense 22:06:51 think he's just trying out defining syntax 22:07:06 yep 22:07:15 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:07:40 input is (foo '(1)) for example 22:07:52 makes scheme run out of memory 22:08:09 ah. wait. 22:08:48 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-176-41.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:08:51 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:09:03 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-249-96-171.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 22:09:23 no 22:13:00 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 22:13:26 -!- gnomon is now known as gnomon_ 22:13:35 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 22:15:53 you are creating infinite (cdr (... (cdr (cdr (cdr (cdr args)))))) chain. /me thinks. 22:16:17 yep, but why :( ? 22:17:28 benny99: What exactly are you trying to do? 22:17:37 benny99: (foo '(1)) => '(1)? 22:18:12 benny99: macro expansion takes place before evaling... 22:18:43 benny99: the reason the above is doing an endless recursion like this is because you aren't working with the actual data structures, instead, you are expand (FOO (CDR ARGS)) which is a syntax, not (FOO '()) like you expected. 22:19:15 arcfide, ah, ok, thank you :) 22:19:37 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-202-163.rdns.as8401.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:20:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:55 arcfide annotated #81896 "Fixed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81896#1 22:21:13 benny99: Try that. 22:22:06 Oh, wait, on MIT Scheme you need to s/[/)/ and s/]/)/. 22:22:10 hm 22:22:18 ok :) 22:22:40 You are working on the actual form of the expression, not on the values. 22:22:54 So, calling CAR and CDR on ARGS isn't going to help in this case. 22:23:00 thank you :) 22:23:09 That is, you aren't going to reduce the form, so your recursion won't end. 22:23:17 And I'm off. 22:23:32 bye 22:25:50 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:27:32 benny99 annotated #81896 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/81896#2 22:30:05 got to leave as well; thanks again, good night :) 22:30:24 gn 22:31:23 -!- flaschenwein [n=olaf_rog@p5080A464.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #scheme 22:31:47 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@65.243.31.107] has quit [] 22:43:10 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:45 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:20 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486DC91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:52:35 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c2391BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:06 -!- wingo [n=wingo@243.Red-88-17-204.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:55:38 -!- vgeddes [n=vgeddes@dsl-245-176-107.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:01:31 dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #scheme 23:09:37 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 23:09:54 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 23:10:50 -!- tizoc is now known as tizoc_ 23:11:50 MIT Scheme 7.7.1? 23:11:52 *Riastradh* coughs. 23:16:24 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:30:08 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:05 -!- kilimanjaro is now known as thermoplyae 23:43:19 -!- thermoplyae [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:43:41 thermoplyae [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 23:43:49 -!- thermoplyae is now known as kilimanjaro 23:47:53 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection]