00:00:49 ice_man`: I'm a fan of ruby, but not a fan of rails. I believe the ror web-framework projects are holding ruby back in itself. 00:00:51 sladegen: I am? 00:01:23 Ah, I see. 00:01:24 cooking? never! sandwiches and cornflakes are fine by me, throw in some fruit and salad. 00:01:33 sladegen: weird, why is Riastradh off in a corner? 00:02:08 chandler: i think it's losing the "connections" on account of incubot logging off from time time... 00:02:21 keyofnight: Riastradh has kept to himself lately. ;-) 00:02:28 keyofnight: He hacks on MIT Scheme. 00:02:41 chandler: He should get props for that. 00:02:41 arcfide, chandler: Wow. Cool! 00:03:41 ice_man`: I assume that you aren't talking about using lot's of boilerplate code. I detest boilerplate code. 00:04:05 keyofnight: I think the entire evolutionary branch of languages starting with Fortran are an evolutionary dead-end, an accidental mutation that happened to be in the right place at the right time, and will take a long time to die off...as cliche as it sounds, it is very much like the dinosaurs...ruby seems like the mutant spawn of all the evolutionary glitches along the way, with some benefits of more axiomatic langu 00:04:24 You got cut off at "more axiomatic langu" 00:04:32 *eli* takes the latex mentality to a dark corner, and axes its head off. 00:04:41 lol 00:04:56 eli: the "latex mentality?" (: 00:05:06 keyofnight: Yeah. 00:05:19 eli: I take it you wouldn't like me using noweb to write my Scheme code, then, and writing it in TeX. 00:05:20 eli: that's brilliant, I just laughed aloud 00:05:24 keyofnight: http://ctan.math.utah.edu/ctan/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/geometry/geometry.pdf 00:05:26 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/m2mqce 00:05:52 It's like -- all I want is to change the stupid margin, and I'm bombarded with documentation. 00:06:07 It's a *manual* -- why are there *two* "preface"s? 00:06:10 chandler: there was nothing else, just the remains of the word "languages" 00:06:37 ice_man`: I kind of agree, but as far as languages go I am quite partial to ruby. If my circle of geeks would have it their way, I'd be writing Java, C, and Python. 00:07:33 I write C and Scheme, anything else is...Well,...bleh. 00:08:26 eli: Yeah, it's a sick joke...the only good thing about latex is that it makes me feel like I am doing something terribly important by jumping through its loops 00:08:31 *hoops 00:08:39 tex and it's derivatives are one glaring example for "software gone wrong". 00:09:11 ice_man`: Yeah, it's sort of ok when you want to do just the common case. 00:09:54 It's OK when you're given a .sty for the proceedings / journal and told "use this", though these days the default assumption seems to be Word :-( 00:10:19 eli: What do you think of Lout? 00:11:48 Lout is a functional language too? 00:11:51 arcfide: I don't know, I never tried it. 00:12:01 Strange. 00:12:07 keyofnight: Lout is a higher level typesetting language similar to TeX. 00:12:08 :-) 00:12:46 arcfide: but reading up on it... they say it is "functional" like haskell. Or did I mis-read? (: 00:12:58 keyofnight: It's not really functional in that sense. 00:13:26 I've gotta try this thing. Do you like it? 00:13:29 keyofnight: Yeah, but you have to ask yourself, where do your mates get their information? The syntax of C was slapped together by Ken Thompson, probably to make it easy to parse as a portable assembly language...java is just a business decision to appeal to the large band of slow-learning momos using C at the time...Python is designed to look like pseudocode, which is itself just a local-maximum attained by removing 00:13:29 superficialities of C and Java, which wouldn't even have a reason to exist in a saner world 00:16:09 incubot: lisp is in-the-sane! 00:16:12 If you can give stalin some sane memory management for heap-allocated stuff (it uses Boehm GC at the moment), and maybe even add some stuff stalin lacks from R5RS (there's not much), people will definitively _love_ you ;) 00:16:30 This is my favourite: http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2008/11/how-fortran-was-developed.html 00:19:00 ice_man`: To be honest, every community has their ideals and sources of information. I've found that most of my friends are bound by tradition within any given industry--the prospect of getting a job with wthatever language. I tend not to trust anyone enthusiastic about a language any more than a person enthusiastic about a particular philosopher. (Is Wittgenstein correct? Is anyone qualified to answer that question?) 00:20:45 But I've noticed that lisp / smalltalk users are the most aware of their historical roots and the goals of language design itself. 00:21:01 (And I respect that a great deal!) 00:26:21 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 00:27:47 keyofnight: Well, hey, if you don't like writing in the language you are using (i.e. -- if you are not at least a little enthusiastic) then I probably wouldn't trust you. :-) 00:28:26 One doesn't have to be blind to a language's limitations or faults to be enthusiastic about it, even in the face of other, "better" options. 00:28:48 I am not enthusiastic about writing in C, but I am doing it. 00:30:19 keyofnight: ugg ung ggug gguuug gugug guguggug gu gu ggu gu g...That's my response in grunts...my language of choice...not the most expressive, but my pals seem enthusiastic about it... 00:30:57 (: 00:31:20 chandler: Sorry, I should clarify that as the language you are using projects that you have control over, not those wherein you have no choice in the matter. 00:31:39 arcfide: well, to this day, my friends won't touch scheme because it's "weird" and there are "too many parens.." 00:31:54 keyofnight: Well, that just shows you how much they know. 00:32:22 Yeah. Unfortunately, I know even less. 00:32:23 well C has too many semicolons 00:33:17 Arelius: C has too many different kinds of syntax in my eyes. <> () ; {} 00:33:27 keyofnight: The only reason for this confusion is that appearances can be deceiving. You are not alone. If this were not the case, LISP would have won a long time ago. 00:34:00 Could you imagine a world where everything was done in dialects of lisp? 00:34:11 A systems lisp for OSes 00:34:11 ice_man`: Yeah, I suppose so. (: 00:34:21 What a beautiful world 00:34:34 No war, starvation, and more importantlly no XML! 00:35:27 I'm starting over anyway. With the Little Schemer. 00:35:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:35:58 oh, krist, i googled MLML just for kicks... http://www.o-xml.org/projects/mlml.html 00:37:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:37:51 sladegen: wtf am I looking at? meta language markup language? 00:37:58 where's my .45? :/ 00:42:01 it's in relation to Arelius "and more importatly no XML". i was think more along the lines meta-meta-language. 00:42:38 the word meta usually makes me nervous. at least it has made me nervous in the past. 00:43:07 *sladegen* keeps wanting to explore the world of first class macros. 00:43:32 *keyofnight* is barely exploring tail-recursion. 00:45:43 keyofnight: You've got a long way to go...keep at it...it will definitely be worth it in the end, unless you plan to give up eventually, in which case you're better off not even wasting your time trying...actually no, that's a lie, it will still make you a better programmer in other languages 00:46:58 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:47:12 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:48:12 ice_man`: I don't plan on giving up, though I cannot guarantee that I will hang in there forever. 00:49:47 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:50:54 keyofnight: good luck on your journey... 00:51:08 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-186-66.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:11 Thank you! (: 00:51:27 Control flow is strange to me in scheme. Cond in particular is weird to me. 00:54:18 How exactly does cond deal with its arguments? like... (cond ((or (foo? x) (bar? x)) #f) (else #t)) 00:54:42 That makes sense to me, I think. 00:55:36 But I often see lots of arguments to cond. Hm. You know what? Scheme is like playing Myst or something. 01:00:03 I suppose my issue is... if `or` returns false... it'll skip over it... and what if there is no "else" in the function (or list)? What would it return? 01:00:26 I suppose I should just fire up s48 and figure it out. 01:00:29 rudybot: eval (cond) 01:00:29 chandler: your sandbox is ready 01:00:48 Hm. Do I get a result, or just a blank stare? 01:00:59 chandler: Que? (: 01:01:06 rudybot: eval (cond (else (values))) 01:01:07 soupdragon: your sandbox is ready 01:01:12 rudybot: eval (display (cond)) 01:01:12 sladegen: your sandbox is ready 01:01:13 sladegen: ; stdout: "#" 01:01:53 r5rs cond 01:01:53 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_106 01:01:56 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3gogwm 01:02:03 "If all s evaluate to false values, and there is no else clause, then the result of the conditional expression is unspecified" 01:02:28 rudybot: eval (if #f #f) 01:02:28 chandler: error: eval:1:0: if: bad syntax (must have an "else" expression) in: (if #f #f) 01:02:42 rudybot: heh 01:02:42 I must? 01:02:43 sladegen: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 01:02:51 *keyofnight* reads. 01:03:13 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 01:03:35 Oh! 01:04:17 Thank you! 01:05:06 cond doesn't have multiple arguments, it's usually a macro that recursively expands into nested if/conds/etc. 01:05:19 by the way--to open a can of worms--does anyone care for R6RS? 01:05:38 sladegen: I'm not sure what that means quite yet. lol 01:06:25 I think a lot of beginners use R6RS because 6 is a bigger number than 5 01:07:01 -!- duper` [n=duper@innu.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:12 duper` [n=duper@innu.org] has joined #scheme 01:07:53 keyofnight: (cond ((foo ...) ...) ((bar ...) ...))) -> (if (foo ...) ... (cond ((bar ...) ...)))) -> etc... 01:09:24 but it may be the other way around and cond may be the primitive. 01:18:12 -!- rodge is now known as roderic 01:18:44 soupdragon: ha! I was looking forward to standardized module system (though I'm not sure if I quite understand this), but people seemed to be a little miffed at the resulting standard. I use s48 or mz anyway, so I suppose it doesn't effect me. 01:20:20 R5RS + module system would be nice 01:20:38 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:30:13 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:08 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 01:33:34 -!- bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:35:42 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:01 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:38:15 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.168.80] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:17 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 01:49:09 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:09 sladegen: Thank you. (: 01:58:41 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:04:10 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:51 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:16:18 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:16 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:18:38 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:41 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:20:57 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:58 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable183.11-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 02:32:52 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 02:51:54 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit ["Goin' away"] 02:52:58 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176204210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:57:49 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 03:08:58 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176193230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:01 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:15:50 twb [n=twb@nat064.cyber.com.au] has joined #scheme 03:16:50 ISTR a really short (about two pages) introduction to Scheme. Anybody rememeber what it was called? 03:27:05 -!- duper` [n=duper@innu.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:58 maybe http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken-for-ruby-programmers 03:33:45 I should ask for what I really want. 03:34:18 I have an engineer coming from a Python background, and I want to get him up to speed on working with a scsh (ick!) setup. 03:34:38 Probably ruby is close enough to python ;-P 03:35:45 Hmm, there's even a s/ruby/python/ article there. 03:36:43 there was a blog series of adventures of a pythonista in the schemeland... 03:37:00 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:49:24 rudybot: give chandler (when #f #f) 03:49:25 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 03:49:25 chandler: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 04:13:13 http://synthcode.com/blog/2009/06/Garbage_Collection 04:19:05 foof you have a very small screen? what's up with the thin column? 04:20:45 leppie: I find text easier to read in thin columns. And yes, I have a very small screen :/ 04:20:55 ok 04:21:30 just looks odd on a big monitor :) 04:21:47 Haven't seen it on a big monitor yet. 04:21:58 I imagine the footnotes all stretch out on one long line? 04:22:10 exactly :) 04:23:14 when i resize the window, it does look good though 04:24:37 I was going to fix-width the footnote column, but was worried about screens even smaller than mine :) 04:25:30 HTML unfortunately doesn't have a good way to make columns that are flexible but "no more than x pixels". 04:25:57 that's what you think :p 04:26:34 oh? 04:26:36 min-witdh max-width, most modern browsers support that 04:27:56 not sure how well it will work on table columns though 04:28:07 but other elements are good 04:28:32 I could set it on the paragraphs inside the td's. 04:38:21 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 04:38:54 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:35 karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:43:23 -!- twb [n=twb@nat064.cyber.com.au] has left #scheme 04:44:02 i'm thinking about a scheme eggdrop module... 04:47:15 ugh, C... 04:51:18 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 04:52:45 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-144.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 04:58:20 -!- karlw [n=karlw@adsl-99-157-202-134.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 05:07:07 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:10 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:08:12 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 05:11:16 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:58 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 05:15:39 eggdrop. 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If a framework provide a way to write an application in CPS, can we say it's continuation based? 11:10:32 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 11:10:58 tomoyuki28jp: I could be wrong but I think it's just a trendy buzzword with almost no meaning 11:11:29 soupdragon: thanks for the info. 11:12:02 Hrm... when I googled "continuation based" into google... ruby web frameworks popped up. 11:12:11 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 11:12:14 that supports what I said :p 11:12:34 keyofnight: yeah 11:12:42 Doesn't inspire much condfidence, but I'm sure there's a reason behind the term... 11:13:43 afaik continuation based means that it automatically picks up where you left off after sending a response 11:13:50 This is done internally by use of continuations 11:14:01 (Ruby has a (pretty broken) implemenation of call/cc) 11:14:11 Hm! 11:14:47 Try this: http://www.double.co.nz/scheme/modal-web-server.html 11:15:18 I imagine that I'm miles away from understanding that. call-with-current-continuation and whatnot. 11:15:36 But if 'continuations based' mean providing a way to write an app in CPS, it does nothing with continuations, right? 11:16:41 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 11:17:34 I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that 11:17:36 I guess continuation based /does/ mean something... since Paul Graham has a patent on it ? 11:17:44 haha 11:24:31 -!- ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has quit [Success] 11:30:18 Now I'm thoroughly confused. 11:30:24 What else is new? 11:30:25 (; 11:34:06 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 11:36:05 Jeez. Wikipedianism.. call-with-current-continuation -> peirce's law -> intuitionistic logic -> intuitionism 11:36:32 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-186-66.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 11:56:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 11:57:02 Axioplas1 [n=Pied@p1082-ipbf509aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:02:22 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-16-123.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:24 -!- elmex [n=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:08 elmex [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 12:22:21 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 12:23:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@0-060.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 12:30:03 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-81-148-178.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:56 incubot: spew some refreshing nonsense. 12:39:59 Isnt new information refreshing? 12:40:15 incubot: i said nonsense! 12:40:18 a functor is not just any random fmap, because otherwise you could implement fmap to always return a nonsense value, and call it a "functior" 12:41:07 that's better, mister professeur. 12:43:11 keyofnight: Like word association games? Try Funny Farm: http://www.shygypsy.com/farm/p.cgi 12:44:06 ffx` [n=ittakest@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 12:46:13 ikaros [n=ikaros@78.52.62.249] has joined #scheme 12:47:52 heh 12:47:53 cracki [n=cracki@0-068.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 12:47:54 Funny Farm 12:47:59 I remember that one ;) 13:02:53 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 13:05:17 rmorris [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 13:10:14 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:32 Hi guys. Yesterday while hacking GPSS, I came to an idea of implementing cooperative thread simulation system in scheme. Does anyone need something like that, or are there any similar libraries? 13:13:16 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:13:48 elias` [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:17:47 Mr-Cat: a la erlang? perhaps termite? 13:19:16 bigloo folks on the base of hop are doing distributed systems, too... there is a vid on googletechtalks, not sure about the source. 13:19:36 sladegen: Not real threads, but simulation only 13:19:45 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 13:20:26 scheme48/scsh has ml concurrency... that's all i know. 13:23:38 not sure what cooperative means... any scheme with lambda/cwcc is actor centric. the ball breaks when on tries to interfere/face with the rest of OS. 13:25:18 Cooperative = threads are not interrupted by a scheduler, but relinquish control tyhemselves 13:25:58 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-31-5.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:26:39 And "simulation" I mean like in "simulation of a queuing system" 13:27:22 So, I was thinking a library, which can help to build models, not real multithreaded systems 13:29:29 I think that could be somewhat similar to simpy 13:31:19 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:31:39 ah, ok, well i'll better crawl under my rock of ignorance, now. 13:32:32 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:35:51 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- heat [n=dima@8.21.172.227] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:35:51 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 13:36:42 heat [n=dima@8.21.172.227] has joined #scheme 13:38:00 ski__ [n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 13:38:46 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 13:41:33 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:44:54 pants1 [n=hkarau@69-196-187-190.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 13:48:10 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 13:56:45 is there some reason why Chez doesn't seem to support SRFIs -- at least according to this list http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-implementers.html ? 13:57:25 otoh, when I googled a bit, it seems it in fact does support some of them... 14:00:50 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@206-248-174-226.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:14 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 14:01:57 Chez is commercial. SRFIs are a community effort, so are mostly ignored by Chez. 14:08:14 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:08:29 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 14:09:17 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:22:03 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.194.50] has joined #scheme 14:24:43 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 14:26:42 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 14:46:58 Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 14:50:24 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 14:59:27 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 15:02:18 I can't seem to find the controls for scroll speed in DrScheme. I found the new version has reduced a half spin my of my wheel to 5 lines. 15:02:27 Could someone point me in the right direction? 15:06:13 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:29 " fill in shifts that were discarded by less responsible proctors. " 15:07:35 oops, sorry 15:10:18 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIFTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 15:10:42 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-FIFTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:51 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 15:17:28 -!- Axioplas1 [n=Pied@p1082-ipbf509aobadori.miyagi.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["/quat"] 15:20:50 -!- peddie [n=matthew@DARWINAWARD.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:15 isn't that an OS setting? 15:27:31 or system rather 15:29:04 dammit foof, you also do not have a home link anywhere on that blog page of yours! 15:30:00 -!- Fufie [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:35:04 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 15:35:25 Home link? 15:35:31 To http://synthcode.com/ ? 15:36:10 mike [n=m@p54A1CC3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:36:38 -!- mike is now known as Guest56442 15:38:19 -!- Guest56442 [n=m@p54A1CC3B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:24 Ragnaroek [i=54a6606f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7ec3baac19237b78] has joined #scheme 15:45:04 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 15:46:19 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c792f6f50a6b7e88] has joined #scheme 15:46:35 g'day all 15:52:41 shalom 15:55:34 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:58:48 -!- synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-186-66.mob.bellsouth.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:08:34 leppie: My terminals, firefox, etc. all have a reasonable scroll, it's just that DrScheme, as of 4.2, is egregiously slow. 16:08:42 wingo [n=wingo@177.Red-81-38-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:09:54 -!- cracki [n=cracki@0-068.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:11:53 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:13:40 well, 4.2 did come with a warning that they're still testing the new interface code ^_^ 16:17:26 -!- ffx` [n=ittakest@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:53 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 16:22:08 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 16:24:49 danking: Posting a question to the list would be a good idea -- it might be a problem with the new code, like chupish said. 16:25:29 danking: (Also, at this level it's important to specify what OS.) 16:26:23 jonrafkind: If you say "shalom", at least don't do that with a horrible accent... 16:26:48 shaLOM 16:27:01 It rhymes with "slalom," right? 16:27:08 There, that's better. 16:27:09 :) 16:27:34 accents in text are important 16:27:37 foof: No, slalom wouldn't be the right rhyme. 16:28:02 *eli* looks through /usr/share/dict/words 16:28:10 absalom? 16:28:23 hemocoelom? 16:29:02 why is AOL in that words file 16:29:27 it's imporant; you, uh, might misspell it? 16:29:38 ALO LULZZZ EROFL FFFFF 16:29:59 well, 'alo' is answering the phone... 16:30:09 foof: "absalom" is butchered in the same way (in Hebrew the name is "Avshalom"). 16:30:59 You know the longest sentence in English literature is from "Absolom, Absolom"? 16:31:11 btw, printing an egregiously large vector scrolls nicely in 4.1.2 on leenooks 16:31:43 In any case, the most obvious american accent in "shalom" is the heavy "L" sound; the hebrew "L" is much light (with the tip of the tongue only). 16:33:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:33:31 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:34:19 foof: a link to the rest of the blog, like the front page of it 16:34:43 benny99 [n=benny@p5486D9E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:34:51 Ok, I'll add one. 16:34:58 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:05 do you have more entries? :) 16:35:19 /blog didnt work 16:35:28 That's the third. There is a feed, at least. 16:35:29 i did try 16:35:37 Just / works. 16:35:51 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has joined #scheme 16:36:09 grrr 16:36:27 /blog/ works 16:36:57 Oh sorry... I can fix the regex in the rewrite rule... 16:37:40 and is it indexed as a part of Planet Scheme? ^_^ 16:38:18 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:38:20 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:38:38 Uh... I want to add filtering on tags, so Planet Scheme could pick out only Scheme-related posts. 16:39:16 yeah, I guess that would be useful... 16:39:19 :) 16:40:41 (not that there are any non-scheme posts yet...) 16:41:37 heh 16:49:31 Is it typical for the feed to include the first paragraph of each post? 16:51:31 yep; things like Apple reader or Sage then make a "Read more" link... 16:51:48 which is nice, since you can see if you want to continue after the first paragraph... 17:05:52 Why not include full content in the feed? 17:06:08 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486D9E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:06:18 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A26CE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:59 because that wouldn't drive traffic to the site? 17:07:12 Is this a commercial site? Is there a reason to care? 17:07:16 s/he would have to push adds in the RSS ala slashdot 17:07:17 no 17:07:17 I quite like how Planet Lisp is mostly full-content. 17:08:57 sure, nothing wrong with it 17:11:32 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:11:58 -!- wingo [n=wingo@177.Red-81-38-184.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:13:55 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 17:16:03 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 17:16:34 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:23:49 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@69-196-187-190.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:15 incubot: My God! It's full of stars! 17:24:18 if it reaches a point that it has created the full list for the size of board 17:30:31 demanotto [n=chatzill@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:30:54 Lectus [n=Lectus@189.105.50.149] has joined #scheme 17:36:06 -!- melgray [n=melgray@97-126-9-247.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 17:38:16 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@95-24-98-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:41:06 incubot: why is there no weather.google.com? 17:41:09 From what I understand, how is the weather in Atlanta? 17:41:36 incubot: Atlanta is in weather. 17:41:39 So.....you like Atlanta? "I wonder why I wonder why - I wonder why I wonder".... 17:42:19 poetic. 17:42:45 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 17:42:55 eli: Alright, thanks 17:43:19 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:17 incubot: Care to regurgitate any more of sorbet's tropes? 17:44:19 like a lot of cultural tropes it has a good side and a bad side (*shrug*) 17:48:45 pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #scheme 17:52:45 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 17:55:17 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 18:00:14 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 18:00:20 HG` [n=wells@xdslez035.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 18:01:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:09 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:03:56 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:04:18 _p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:37 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-182-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:14 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 18:06:40 incubot: Never invite a C++ programmer to a party. He'll mutate all your state and fall asleep under a table 18:06:43 No I am awake...If I was asleep I couldnt be talking to you now.. 18:07:11 Where does incubot take all these weird answers? 18:07:11 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:25 -!- Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:26 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:01 Mr-Cat: it takes an interesting word from your sentence and finds a quote containing the same word 18:10:30 Mr-Cat: It finds a sentence in the channel logs. 18:10:44 Mr-Cat: In this case it's a quote of sarahbot from 2003/4. 18:11:05 wow, metabots ;) 18:11:37 fall asleep under a table is a bad thing to do at a party? 18:11:38 eli: So, the quotes are not "sorted" somehow by a human? 18:11:42 and I probably missed the pun of 'fall asleep under a table', if there is any 18:11:48 :) 18:12:43 stepnem: There is no, I think :) 18:12:44 Mr-Cat: No, it uses some heuristic to find a related sentence. 18:13:04 incubot: Is quicksort really quick? 18:13:07 Have you ported the quicksort example already? 18:13:27 incubot: Is it really quick? 18:13:30 Could you give me a quick summary of what makes Rails so good? 18:13:40 incubot: Is it really? 18:13:43 incubot: scalabel continuation based semantics 18:13:43 kernel language itself should really be little more than an extended lambda calculus. 18:13:46 they tried to hire a friend of mine (devik) who developed a competetive c++ based contraint/rule matching system, so wasnt sure they're still using cl :) 18:14:14 Mr-Cat: You can see how it infers some important word and use it as a hook... 18:14:32 klutometis is the implementor, btw. 18:14:49 eli: Ok, thanks. 18:15:06 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 18:16:16 incubot: incubot 18:16:25 So, all we are being indexed by incubot? :) Big brother is watchung us. 18:16:37 -!- p1dzkl [n=p1dzkl@1505ds1-str.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:42 as if the ccl public logs weren't enough! 18:16:44 :) 18:18:49 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:18:53 Riastradh: Is there a X such that (MERGE-URIS X "http://example.org/foo") --> "http://example.org/foo/" ? 18:19:09 Names: felipe borism _p1dzkl saccade_ melgray HG` metasyntax|work pitui` mbishop_ Mr-Cat Lectus demanotto MichaelRaskin dlt_ CaptainMorgan cracki sepult chupish jonrafkind Ragnaroek jlongster athos mejja MrFahrenheit annodomini araujo luz bombshelter13_ ski_ ski__ heat antoszka elias` rmorris ikaros elmex Edico soupdragon jewel raikov hkBst alaricsp rdd joast Mr_Awesome pumpkin Nshag dfeuer tjafk1 dmoerner sphex lisp 18:19:09 paste arcfide jao pfo m811 cky hosh X-Scale Deformative Poeir_ pitui eno tabe underspecified_ keyofnight marcoecc socialite sladegen Archeron incubot minion mreggen offby1 Elly Fade saccade foof amoe ccl-logbot ineiros fishey sad0ur thesnowdog pbusser2 underspecified Ppjet6 acarrico leppie Arelius proq poucet danking rudybot mornfall Kusanagi ada2358 tltstc ray CSdread_ qebab Adrinael erg bohanlon kandinski Khisanth 18:19:10 mmmulani REPLeffect Leonidas elf rbancroft glogic ecraven klutometis nicktastic etoxam tessier certainty bunz wastrel Riastradh nasloc__ hiyuh clog stepnem kazzmir Axioplase roderic slashcom tizoc Quadrescence XTL tarbo maskd sjamaan specbot dlouhy zbigniew yosafbridge rotty eli r0bby guenthr michaelw ski Maddas chandler Debolaz duncanm z0d nemik 18:19:19 lol 18:19:28 why? 18:19:28 eli: WTF, dude? 18:19:31 eli: Are you all right? 18:19:31 ERC? 18:19:32 ? 18:19:39 OMG WTF BBQ 18:19:46 incubot: I blame erc 18:19:49 I blame that on excessive lexical syntax. The reader syntax differences between CL and Scheme are small enough to ignore for the most part. 18:19:52 :@ 18:19:54 Meta-social-software experimenting. 18:20:01 I HATE YOU AND HOPE YOU DIE 18:20:13 incubot: I blame r6rs too 18:20:16 That imposes a huge runtime penalty which you can't blame me for, since I don't control the entire program. 18:20:32 what? 18:20:42 why you awoke me? 18:21:35 Meta-social-software experimenting. 18:21:37 aka trolling 18:21:38 :P 18:22:07 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 18:22:11 I was looking at sladegen's graph thing, and seeing if it can break. 18:22:18 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 18:22:26 It didn't -- must have some threshold. 18:24:49 it's not mine... 18:25:10 *mbishop* blames offby1 18:25:31 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:26:42 sladegen: Just that it looks like connections are done when there's a reference from one nick to another, which means that it's easy to tweak the results. 18:26:47 incubot: you *would* think that blaming r6rs incurs a huge runtime penalty! 18:26:49 you can tell from Novig article that he is, more or less, blaming people being impatient or lazy or greedy or such. Because, he advices a fix to the problem by telling people to spend more time in programer or similar. 18:27:36 incubot: you are wise beyond your years 18:27:39 That's hard. I'm love to program, just not outside my "comfort zone" (language wise) and you can probably guess where Scheme falls (sorry). 18:27:49 haha 18:29:28 sladegen: Did I break it? 18:30:52 eli: dunno, from the looks of the graph, no. 18:31:40 sladegen: Ah, a minute ago it mumbled something about "cannot display the image because it contains errors"... 18:32:10 -!- keyofnight [n=key@cpe-76-171-76-175.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 18:32:18 you probably were trying to get it when it was in the middle of scp. 18:33:21 Yeah, maybe combined with timestamps convincing my browser or your server to not send new contents. 18:38:49 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 18:38:57 graph connection was not affected by your "Names:" message, at that moment. 18:42:08 -!- demanotto [n=chatzill@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 18:42:21 Ah, I probably should have removed that prefix. 18:42:59 eli: blah blah node node 18:43:31 but that would probably only add the first nick (before the ':') anyway...? 18:44:49 stepnem: It might have ignored that since there is no `Names' nick. 18:45:22 Actually, my guess about such programs is that they're much simpler than they look, so it might just look for the first nick found. 18:45:22 eli: yeah, but it probably only counts the messages addressed to a nick, not just mentioning a nick 18:45:29 most probably, rest of the text would be parsed as message.... perhaps "nick: nick1: nick2: nick3: boolba" might find a bug. better just read the source if curious. 18:45:48 Well, there is an edge from me to klutometis -- and I only mentioned him 18:46:13 Just for fun, I'll try again with jonrafkind 18:46:37 eli: but there is a message with 'klutometis' as a first word in the message 18:47:01 stepnem: Ah, right. 18:47:18 it refreshes every 3 mins... perhaps i should increase since it looks like it autoreacts to changing situation. 18:47:19 maybe that counts...? -- anyway, I agree with sladegen -- it's just a Perl script afaik -- so, RTFS, :) 18:47:37 ARGH 18:47:40 python. 18:47:51 oh, it's Python... 18:48:02 java... sorry. 18:48:06 hahaha 18:48:13 all the same to me. 18:48:18 There you go -- there's a link between me an jonrafkind 18:48:27 where 18:48:29 uses pircbot. 18:48:34 It will probably go thicker when I mention jonrafkind 18:48:43 eli smells like day old bagels 18:48:48 How's the weather in jonrafkind? 18:49:06 I wouldn't know, eli, I live in a cave. 18:49:08 *eli* points jonrafkind to http://smsw.rootnode.net/scheme/socnet/scheme-current.png 18:49:32 jonRAFkind, jonrafkind jonrafkind jonrafkind. 18:49:40 eli eli elielieleiielieielielieliellel 18:49:47 (o O) 18:49:48 i dont see any improvement 18:49:51 *eli* remembers that Malkovitch scene. 18:49:58 right... using all the nicks in the channel in the message would be "disasterous" 18:50:29 when does it regenreate the png? 18:50:33 I'm not sure I understand what this is supposed to be telling me. 18:50:37 *eli* hits jonrafkind with a broken ruby lambda. 18:50:41 Apparently I'm connected to rudybot, and nobody else. 18:50:45 *sladegen* increased croned scp to every minute. 18:51:07 checking mod time would be even better... blah. 18:51:10 *jonrafkind* shows eli the power of visual basic 18:51:55 *eli* does a saving throw 18:52:05 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c792f6f50a6b7e88] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:52:42 *eli* counters with a mirror of sexpr-reflection. 18:53:02 http://smsw.rootnode.net/scheme/socnet/scheme-mpeg4.avi 18:53:21 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:53:28 It's not nearly as nice as the subversion movie thing. 18:53:29 if it was running on the http server it would work better, cron hack sucks. 18:53:31 rotty: Riastradh: leppie: let's connect the graph! 18:53:52 now try to draw pictures 18:53:54 first up: a duck 18:54:21 sladegen: lalala 18:54:27 mejja: node 18:54:33 'lo Fare 18:54:46 jonrafkind: avis are generated by hand when i feel like it. 18:55:24 sladegen: There -- it's broken now again. 18:55:44 *eli* blames jonrafkind and a duck 18:57:03 prolly nfs issues ;) 19:06:22 rotty, yes, there is an X such that (MERGE-URIS X "http://example.org/foo") yields "http://example.org/foo/": "http://example.org/foo/" is such a value of X. 19:08:07 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-99-29.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:15:43 alaricsp, hi 19:16:00 Fare's alive! 19:16:57 -!- _p1dzkl is now known as p1dzkl 19:19:38 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:21 somewhat 19:26:21 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 19:28:14 npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:31:24 jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-84.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:31:45 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 19:33:13 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:13 chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffa51ef1e1b89e49] has joined #scheme 19:41:03 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-84.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:42:34 Fare: That doesn't sound great. What's up, old friend? 19:47:14 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 19:47:20 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 19:48:15 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:03:43 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:07 rmorris` [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:50 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6606f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7ec3baac19237b78] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:23:33 karlw [n=karlw@moffitt-wlan-146-61.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:25:35 It seems like most looping macro proposals degenerate into unnecessary complexity. 20:26:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-144.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:27:37 alaricsp, make bad decisions, paying the price 20:27:41 otherwise, doing good 20:28:24 btw, I mostly like your process calculus, though I don't understand some of your finer points 20:28:36 like the "you have to wait for all your children" 20:28:37 sigh 20:28:59 unless you also add a "you can sell your children to other processes" 20:29:12 in Unix, init inherits all the orphans. 20:29:30 I don't like state management of orphans, though. 20:29:49 are there no workhouses? 20:29:52 are there no jails? 20:30:12 private jails 20:30:15 not a jail monopoly 20:30:43 everyone should be able to make his own jail, that covers exactly what one wants. 20:30:48 Oh, yeah, I'm having trouble getting Chicken 4.0 to compile on Mac OS X 5.7 20:33:46 Can't someone spend an afternoon making an XCode-compatible dmg or whatever? 20:34:31 karlw: You have all the CLI tools and BSD stuff installed, right? 20:35:34 I downloaded the newest version of XCode from Apple and I installed Mono for Mac OS X. 20:38:34 A Chicken dmg? 20:38:35 hehe 20:39:10 karlw: Did you make sure that you customized your installation of Xcode to include all the CLI tools and the like? 20:39:35 no 20:40:11 karlw: Well, what exactly is your problem? 20:40:37 When I installed Chicken on my Mac, it was one of the easier installations. 20:41:20 Important thing is that you must use gnu make 20:41:24 NOT bsd make 20:41:39 A link error, I think. I'm recompiling to get the error. 20:42:34 btw, how does chicken fare with embedded linux? 20:42:58 like arm 20:43:15 -!- rmorris [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:26 I think I saw arm listed on the "supported platforms" page 20:43:34 Dunno what version was tested last 20:44:47 So, a dmg (or Windoze exe) would cause trouble? 20:44:57 not really 20:45:03 I doubt anyone's willing to make one, though :) 20:45:27 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:45:47 Compile worked this time... 20:48:37 synthase [n=synthase@adsl-220-186-66.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:15 Chicken is a good way to show AP Computer Science acolytes how cool Scheme is. 20:49:34 karlw: AP CS uses Java doesn't it? 20:49:46 Yes. 20:49:52 Yeah. . . 20:50:23 Aquapuncture ? 20:51:59 soupdragon: Advanced Placement Computer Science for High Schools in the U.S. 20:52:33 ``Oh, Scheme, that's a slow interpreted language with absolutely no libraries or practical uses. It doesn't even have a while loop.'' 20:53:09 (while (not (world-domination-achieved?)) (write-code)) 20:53:11 karlw: And then they come to Indiana... *evil laugh* 20:53:39 soupdragon: AP's are like IB exams or A-levels. 20:54:40 They come to Berkeley, and SICP fries their brains. 20:55:31 What's AP? 20:55:38 ... 20:55:41 :-| 20:56:10 Even though politics in the CS department are moving towards Python. 20:56:46 oh 20:56:49 *sjamaan* reads up 20:56:52 d'oh 20:56:52 huh, when I took AP, it used C++... 20:57:11 when I took AP, it used C 20:57:11 then they had AOIT, which used CL 20:57:21 erm, I mean pascal 20:57:39 they had just eliminated Pascal a few years before I took it 20:58:32 Every year students (excepting ones like myself) complain that the introductory programming courses are too theoretical. 20:58:57 yes, a shame that computer science would be CS instead of SE... 20:59:22 -!- rmorris` [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:34 too theoretical!!!!1! they didn't even show me how to hack hotmail 20:59:53 most schools near here have a CIS program for people who want SE though... 21:00:20 Well, the idea is that you need to know CS before SE. 21:00:34 I think one of the biggest faults of big CS programs in major Universities that teach "real" C.S. is not being upfront with the students about what they are learning and why they are learning it. 21:01:13 Most of the time, I see students coming into the C.S. program who just want to be programmers for X, Y, and Z, make some steady, good income, and don't care a hoot about anything else. 21:01:16 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 21:01:21 dunno; where I went to school, the first class was basically "this is CS; if you don't like it, we have a very competent CIS program next door" 21:01:33 chupish: That's nice. 21:01:53 actually, it was nice, because the two programs got along nicely, rather than the usual political BS 21:02:15 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #scheme 21:02:36 I think that students think they only go to a University to get a degree in how to program, which is weird. Sure, they're going to learn how to program in the C.S. degree track, but that's not the only thing they are going to learn. 21:02:39 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 21:03:04 well, things like AP & PA (in NY) don't help really 21:03:24 They could, though. 21:03:25 Engineering majors have a seperate programming class in Matlab that's more practical. 21:03:46 I mean, at least my AP & PA classes were CS-lite; enough math to weed out people who didn't want it, but not enough to tell people "this is CS" 21:04:55 Each engineering department has its own higher level practical courses, except EE. 21:08:00 There's a CIS program, but it's self-paced and staffed by CS undergraduates. You can't get a degree, though, since most people view it as something a bored 12 year old could do. 21:08:21 cough cough 21:09:02 There are two year colleges that exist for very good reason. 21:09:14 all the best programmers are bored 12 year olds 21:09:21 Anyway, I'm in math so I don't really care. 21:09:30 I was a bored twelve year old when i started programming. 21:10:07 The best programmers are graduate students with coffee. 21:10:20 I think they're just the loudest 21:10:38 esp. at the local coffee hole 21:10:52 "I JUST STARTED A STARTUP; WE'RE IN STEALTH MODE THOUGH" 21:10:53 *chupish* sighs 21:12:15 I showed someone how to implement while with define-syntax and syntax-rules 21:12:31 lol karlw 21:12:33 what did they say? 21:12:47 after they picked their jaw up off the floor... 21:13:35 Something like: ``Well, Java has while built in.'' 21:13:43 :D 21:14:04 :'( 21:14:07 arcfide, I am considering eliminating LET, WHILE, and UNTIL clauses from foof-loop. 21:14:35 Riastradh: LET, maybe, but I like it, WHILE and UNTIL I would like to keep. What do you suggest to replace them? 21:15:02 I suggest that you put them explicitly in your loop using Scheme conditionals and Scheme LETs. 21:15:23 and ``Why do I need Scheme... libraries... Web programming...'' 21:15:37 *chupish* imagines hand waving 21:16:24 karlw: Ignore them 21:16:46 The argument came down to how nobody uses Scheme in industry. 21:16:56 karlw: Patently false. :-) 21:17:00 well, that's not true, just depends on the industry 21:17:12 teh thing is: If a million other people aren't doing it -- it must be wrong 21:17:22 YARLY 21:17:37 *sjamaan* throws out all his Scheme code and starts hacking PHP for fun 21:17:43 *sjamaan* hangs himself 21:17:50 what, no profit? 21:18:03 No profit, just misery 21:18:24 huh 21:18:30 From what I can tell, a few small businesses use Scheme. 21:18:37 I was pretty sure all the cool kids do PHP for fun *&* profit 21:19:28 The *cool* kids do Ruby 21:19:31 Or maybe Scala 21:19:52 I read "Scala gets delimited continuations" and thought cool.. so I read a bit more about it... :( 21:20:00 haha 21:20:01 See? 21:20:28 I thought of doing a startup Facebook clone with Chicken. 21:21:03 but the lack of libraries & it not being Java stopped you, right? 21:21:07 ;) 21:21:09 ROFL 21:21:53 Actually, lack of interest stopped me. 21:21:53 karlw: a biotech i contract for uses scheme; midcap 21:22:11 karlw: 'twas a joke about enterprisey-ness 21:22:43 klutometis: Are you a consultant? 21:23:03 It *would* be funny to have your start up purchased by another firm though 21:23:24 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:27 "So, let's take a look at the HOLY CRAP! WHAT IS *that*" 21:23:50 karlw: indeed 21:24:04 chupish: job security? 21:24:13 chupish: That would be hilarious 21:24:16 not if you're corp is being purchased 21:24:22 I agree sjamaan 21:24:29 chupish: sure; if you're a contractor 21:24:37 *sjamaan* wonders if that's what happened to Yahoo when they bought up Paul Graham's store thingy 21:24:50 I thought they rewrote it, like Reddit did 21:24:56 sjamaan: they supposedly took two years to rewrite it in php, and took themselves out of the market 21:24:57 They must've 21:25:02 only the website hosting stuff stayed in Lisp 21:25:12 Because they didn't understand it? ;) 21:25:25 chupish: ``Oh my god, I'm getting post-traumatic stress disorder from CS 61A.'' 21:25:50 great case-study to use, though, in mounting an argument to keep the old contractors 21:25:52 "I *knew* I should have finished CS; stupid CIS classes" :) 21:26:12 It's hard to hire people with Lisp or Scheme experience. 21:27:03 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:27:05 seems like ita has hired most of the common lisp people 21:27:44 And Jane St. says that they welcome Schemers too 21:27:47 as for scheme, there are a lot of people who had some exposure to it in school, but not a lot of people who are expert at doing real work with it 21:28:07 yeah, well, because Java has while built in... 21:28:33 It's also hard to train CIS types in functional programming style. 21:28:43 :) 21:28:43 I'm not sure about that... 21:28:53 FP has some momentum now, though 21:28:59 I used to program in XQuery a lot, we had a few Web Design/CIS people working in it 21:29:08 although it's first order only... 21:29:27 fp is getting buzz due to multiple cores as well 21:29:39 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslez035.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:40 well, it makes a lot of things easier to manage 21:29:46 Sisal will be reborn! 21:29:51 No, seriously this time! 21:29:55 Riastradh: Wouldn't that make some things a little more cumbersome? 21:31:07 I http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs3/sp09/exams/2009SpCS3LMidtermV3a.pdf 21:31:12 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:31:19 See Question 5. 21:31:32 I'm thinking of the case where a single termination condition leads to a known single return, which can easily be written as (LOOP ([UNTIL ...]) => BLAH), and no body, which is nice, but if the UNTIL were taken out, I am thinking it would look more like (LOOP continue (...) (IF ... BLAH ... (CONTINUE))). 21:31:42 Here's the issue, arcfide: user termination conditions are applied *after* body variables are bound, and consequently control may flow into the final expression after the body variables are bound, but the final expressions cannot refer to body variables. 21:31:59 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:00 I wrote it. 21:32:50 Riastradh: Right, so I would prefer to see a nicer semantics rather than have them go away all together, assuming it can be done efficiently. 21:33:01 What semantics would you like to see? 21:33:13 I'd like to see body variables able to be bound in the final expression. 21:33:30 Few people got it right. 21:33:34 Not quite, arcfide. 21:33:53 I mean, it's a little weird that you either exit from the body explicitly, in which case you do have access to the body variables, or you exit through the final expression, where they aren't bound, and that's always been inconvenient. 21:34:16 That doesn't work because if the iterators' termination conditions indicate termination, the body variables will not have been computed, so they can't be bound in the final expression at all. 21:34:55 True. 21:35:33 The strategy is to get yahoo to buy out your startup and then hire you as a consultant. 21:36:01 -!- chupish [i=182ed347@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ffa51ef1e1b89e49] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:36:52 *arcfide* thinks. 21:36:55 I'm sure there's a way to do it. 21:37:01 So maybe you want iterators to be able to update some variables before entering the final expression. But that requires a hairier notion of binding along control flow graphs, as in Olin's cfg language. 21:37:29 Anyway, as a math major it seems like consulting is the best job I'll ever get. 21:38:20 Riastradh: Well, for me, binding the LET values to some explicit unknown isn't so bad, but that's not a good general solution. 21:38:47 foof-loop is a bit complicated 21:38:53 No, that doesn't work at all, arcfide. 21:38:57 However, I was wondering if they could all be evaluated in the same "level" instead, and maybe just apply selective ordering if desired? 21:39:01 That's why I'm considering simplifying it, karlw. 21:39:45 Riastradh: But not by reducing its functionality, I hope. 21:39:46 Currently, aren't all the iterators evaluated before checking for termination? 21:39:55 I don't understand, arcfide. 21:40:03 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:40:52 Riastradh: The problem, if I understand, is that one doesn't know how to bind the body variables within a final expression if the final expressions were to be within the scope of those body variables at the time of a termination which originated from one of the iterators, right? 21:41:37 But there does exist some semantics for the iterators to evaluate themselves even in the case when one of them is a terminating iterator, right? 21:41:54 The problem is that there is a single vertex through which the loop exits, but two possible paths to that vertex, along one of which more computation happens than along the other. 21:42:26 Right, And I'm wondering if you can fold all the computation along one of those paths and eliminate the other path. 21:42:36 But that `more computation' might be intended to update some variable in the loop, and since the final expression is closed in a particular environment, those updates can't be reflected there. 21:42:46 And let the body variables disappear and just reappear as with WITH. 21:42:57 Huh? 21:43:06 What does WITH have to do with apparitions? 21:43:40 So, the two paths are either ITERATOR -> BODY -> CONDITIONALS -> FINAL or ITERATOR -> FINAL, right? 21:44:20 Refer to Section `Loop Expansion' in the manual; then perhaps we can use common terms from that document. 21:45:45 *karlw* prays that the Glorious R7RS Editors will come up with an acceptable high-level looping interface. 21:45:58 karlw: Oh, dear me, ack! CL, here we come. 21:46:08 karlw: Why don't we just focus on fixing what went wrong with R6RS? 21:46:10 What do you find unacceptable about foof-loop, karlw? 21:46:22 (And why need a loop macro be in the language definition, anyway?) 21:46:44 I'm being sarcastic. 21:47:05 No offense intended. 21:47:20 Riastradh: Okay, so when are the FOR iterators evaluated in the expansion? ? 21:47:57 arcfide: that's like "fixing" what went wrong with the bush administration 21:48:26 arcfide: the road to verbosity and inelegance is slippery 21:48:29 klutometis: Well, let's hope its possible, otherwise, we're in big trouble. ;-) 21:48:32 heh 21:48:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:48:41 karlw, my use of the word `unacceptable' was just to mimic your use of the word `acceptable', but I meant the question in all seriousness, with no offence taken. 21:49:52 yeah karlw have you seen foof-loop it's super 21:51:10 foof-loop is fine, I just wouldn't show it to freshmen in an intro class. 21:51:50 Riastradh: What I'm suggesting is keeping the user forms, but make it possible to order clauses in a loop in a significant way, so that the values established by one iterator be available in the next, if desired. This would enable the same thing that I can do now, and wouldn't have the issue of final expansion, because there would be only one path to the final stuff. 21:52:02 So, let LET and LET*, you might have LOOP and LOOP*. 21:53:01 s/let/like/ 21:53:12 No, then there would be *multiple* paths to the final expression. 21:53:51 Riastradh: How? The termination conditions would happen only after all the rest are complete, so the only option is to populate all the names visible in the final expression with something. 21:54:23 (loop* ((for x (in-list ...)) (for y (in-list ...)) (while ...)) => ) 21:55:06 Path 1: if the first list is empty. Path 2: if the second list is empty, with X bound to some element of the first list. Path 3: if the user termination condition is true, with X bound to a some element of the first list and Y bound to some element of the second. 21:55:13 I must vanish now. 21:55:17 *poof* 21:55:42 Sugar makes you get fat and causes diabetes. 21:56:27 Regardless of its syntacticity. 21:56:28 Riastradh: For Path 1, the second list would still have to iterate and Y would be bound to something, at least. I don't see how this is different from now. 21:56:55 karlw: Sugar also improves productivity when used judiciously. 21:57:15 arcfide: indeed. 21:58:02 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:58:47 karlw: "Syntactic sugar causes cancer of the semicolon." -- Alan Perlis 21:58:50 -!- npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:09 npe [i=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:59:51 Although I always get coffee black. 22:00:27 With extra parens :) 22:00:30 Riastradh: So, in the above, Path 1 would really be X = '(), Y is some value of the second list; Path 2 has X being some value of the first list, and Y = '(), and Path 3 is X is some element of the first list, Y is some element of the second list [either of these could be nil], and the user condition holds. 22:00:44 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:17 gopher.egg 22:02:20 lol 22:05:17 karlw: What? 22:05:24 Gotta problem with rodents, huh? 22:05:50 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-SIX-THIRTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:06:00 *arcfide* throws a gopher (gopher://gopher.sacrideo.us) at karlw. 22:06:03 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:06:16 That gopher is French and Schemely. Play nice. 22:07:58 jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-51.hotspot.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:08:58 Well, gopher is important enough for Firefox to support it. 22:10:59 IETF needs to define a LambdaMOO protocol. 22:11:14 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-199-7-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 22:11:41 arcfide: it's like arcfide the magician steps out everytime you pimp gopher.sacrideo.us 22:12:13 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-51-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:20 such a nexus of anachronism 22:12:24 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:49 it's indistinguishable from magic 22:14:13 Hahah. 22:14:46 At least FreeBSD isn't called BearOS. 22:14:48 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:05 I'm not pimping gopher.sacrideo.us, just making sure that Gophers are given their credit. 22:15:21 Go Bears! 22:15:27 *karlw* ducks 22:16:19 Heh. 22:16:43 -!- npe [i=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:43 npe_ [i=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 22:17:32 Note that my /whois gives my geographic location. 22:17:54 Full disclosure, baby. 22:19:09 karlw: Well, I'm not really partial to sports teams except the St. Louis Cardinals, and you don't have to live near them to like them. :-) 22:20:31 I hate football, I mean it in a school-spirit sense. 22:21:47 I wear football T-shirts because girls pay attention to them. 22:22:07 Heh... 22:22:19 School spirit...hm... 22:24:07 Our math department will... 22:24:32 Oh yeah, you can't swear on freenode 22:25:01 eh? 22:25:05 of course you can 22:25:47 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@eng-4-51.hotspot.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:47 But here...well, you might get in trouble. We are a family channel (I think), still, right? 22:25:47 What if someone connects to freenode over packet radio? 22:27:22 I'm not sure.. I just thought this was a civilized channel 22:28:03 arcfide: are you suggesting that people of good will might expose their children to the unrestricted power of Scheme?? 22:29:24 Elly: Maybe responsible parents who want to teach responsibility to their children have grand goals of giving their more responsible children power commensorate with that responsibility. 22:32:13 Kids just need to learn how to think for themselves. 22:32:33 karlw: My, how hard that is in today's society. 22:32:37 children should invent scheme on their own 22:33:52 I won't swear around them if their parents don't like it out of civility. 22:36:58 It's more important that people take your ideas seriously than if they like your life style choice or whatever. 22:41:25 That's why not swearing on #scheme will help Scheme take over the world. 22:42:39 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-67-173-72-213.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:14 http://podcast.freenode.net/guidance 22:47:23 heh heh 22:48:21 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@95-24-98-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:26 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.194.50] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:57:43 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:01:19 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:02:56 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-100-82.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:04:08 incubot: potty mouth 23:04:11 So it *was* the part of the food in his mouth that upset him. 23:08:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:08 arcfide, where did '() come from in your description of these paths? 23:17:10 Riastradh: Even in regular foof loop, don't the IN-LIST iterators have to contain some value at the time when they terminate? 23:17:36 (loop ([for a (in-list ...)] [for b (in-list ...)]) => final) 23:18:20 You keep using that word `iterator'. I do not think it means what you think it means. 23:18:34 Let me do a test. 23:19:04 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:57 In the terminology of foof-loop, IN-LIST is an iterator, and A is a variable bound by the IN-LIST iterator. 23:20:19 In this case, A is not bound in the final expression, because it is a body variable. 23:20:32 Right, I just realized this. 23:21:08 I'm thinking of accumulators and the like, I think. 23:21:59 That is, why can't we treat LET in the same way we treat WITH? 23:22:18 LET is completely different from WITH. 23:22:31 How so? 23:22:38 *Riastradh* blinks. 23:22:40 Read the manual, please. 23:23:53 Let me see if I can frame this correctly. 23:25:45 Okay, let me just see if I understand your terminology correctly. 23:25:55 Read the manual. 23:26:01 In the Loop Expansion section of the foof loop manual, you have a series of *-bvls. 23:26:32 arcfide: I typically have fewer problems with a library if I play around with it. 23:27:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:27:43 The user-{bvl,producer} stage is populated by the LET and LET-VALUES clauses. 23:27:52 Yes. 23:27:56 -!- karlw [n=karlw@moffitt-wlan-146-61.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has left #scheme 23:27:58 However, WITH clauses are evaluated at the...entry-bvl stage? 23:28:02 No. 23:28:07 WITH clauses add loop variables. 23:29:17 Okay, so... and s, and then somewhere in that variable is updated with the right component in the WITH clause? 23:29:28 Yes. 23:29:43 So, then, where are iterators and accumulators evaluated? 23:29:50 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:29:51 What does the verb `evaluate' mean? 23:29:59 That is, where are their bvls and producers found when the form is expanded? 23:30:32 All over. They can supply outer bindings, loop variables, entry bindings, termination conditions, final bindings, and body bindings. 23:31:24 So only WITH clause variables are in ...? 23:32:06 Wait, sorry, no. 23:32:45 So, both iterators and accumulators are treated the same? 23:33:29 Generally speaking, they all are wrapped in a (FOR ...) form and can affect the outer bindings, loop variables, entry bindings, termination conditions, final bindings, and body bindings? 23:35:47 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:42:14 Riastradh: I see what you are saying now. I know that I can use Scheme LETs inside the body of a loop, which is fine enough, but the foof loop LET clause still has uses. I definitely want WHILE and UNTIL to stay, because it's important for me to be able to specify arbitrary termination conditions. 23:43:03 If you can change foof loop so that it is simpler, yet doesn't make things that were previously easy and relatively simple more complex or less concise, then I would probably be fine with it. 23:43:39 elias`_ [n=c@host86-159-170-69.range86-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:44:35 I still like the ability to bind something in the scope of all the outer, loop, and entry variables, but it would be even nicer if it were available in the final expression. 23:45:20 I'm not sure I understand why you differentiate body-bvl and entry-bvl. What are the body-bvls and the entry-bvls? 23:45:40 Can they not be combined? 23:50:48 *foof* was opposed to LET, WHILE and UNTIL to begin with 23:51:00 (Sorry, I was distracted.) 23:51:17 An accumulator is a special case of an iterator. 23:51:22 Riastradh: No problem, it isn't like I have much to say. 23:59:00 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:59:01 -!- elias`_ is now known as elias`