00:00:46 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 00:01:24 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 00:05:53 Archeron [n=wade@69.10.147.2] has joined #scheme 00:07:22 -!- TimMc [n=timmc@aurail.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 00:11:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:55 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has joined #scheme 00:16:25 schemers.org lists an ass-load of scheme implementations. Any recommendations on an R6 implementation to run on a linux x86_64 desktop for the purposes of reacquainting myself with scheme? 00:17:46 Archeron: Just because R6RS is newer than R5RS doesn't mean it's better 00:17:52 Archeron, try PLT! 00:18:15 soupdragon: I never said it was. 00:18:44 minion: implementations 00:18:46 implementations: Common Lisp Implementation: Free Common Lisp implementations and their *features*. http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20Implementation 00:18:50 Archeron: If you want R6RS, Ikarus is pretty good, PLT also good, and there are a bunch of others, of course. 00:18:55 stupid minion 00:19:10 minion: scheme implementations 00:19:10 I am most familiar with SCM 00:19:11 scheme is the root of all evil 00:19:15 heh 00:19:26 *arcfide* is patiently waiting for Chez Scheme's R6RS, so that he can rewrite *everything*. 00:19:37 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.147.105] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:57 -!- wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:21:10 Archeron: I would recommend staying far, far away from SCM. 00:21:21 Now now, we don't need to get into that right now. 00:21:30 used it years ago in school 00:21:41 That's right, he said he was looking for R6RS, and SCM isn't it. 00:22:00 That's what I get for reading what's on the screen before reading scrollback. 00:22:08 I haven't used scheme enough to have any religious convictions toward any particular implementation. :) 00:22:13 Archeron: I think IronScheme's creator hangs out here. 00:22:37 Archeron, well then, time to get started! Soon you'll be a grumpy, opinionated, hair-splitting curmudgeon just like the rest of us! 00:22:47 as far as r6 is concerned there isn't much choice... ikarus, ypsilon, plt, perhaps gambit... or some other new ones like iron scheme. 00:22:57 larceny 00:22:59 sladegen, isn't Larceny r6rs-ish? 00:23:01 Aww 00:23:03 If I had to use an R6RS right now it would probably be Ikarus, but I'm just waiting. 00:23:04 I win 00:23:05 yes 00:23:08 Oh worry not... I am already there... just not as far as scheme is concerned... yet! 00:23:19 i heard it tries. 00:23:21 *gnomon* cedes victory to mbishop 00:23:34 *mbishop* throws that victory on offby1's lawn 00:23:51 *sladegen* confused gambit with larceny. 00:23:53 *gnomon* waits for offby1 to tell the victory to get off his lawn 00:23:54 well... am I really going to gain anything great by using R6? 00:24:01 nope 00:24:10 Archeron, the hatred of literally dozens of programming language geeks? 00:24:11 the disdain of many a nerd 00:24:16 damn 00:24:17 I WIN THIS TIME SIR 00:24:21 now you beat me :( 00:24:24 only dozens? 00:24:26 Also, GET OUT OF MY HEAD 00:24:40 Archeron: you can use R6RS effectively, but plenty of Schemers don't like it. 00:24:55 I crap bigger than a mere dozen geeks. :) 00:25:15 Archeron, well, there aren't a lot of nerds nerdy enough to form a strong opinion about one or t'other revision of what is already a very nerdy programming language. The air is pretty thin around here. 00:25:17 Why not? Not enough parens in R6? 00:25:18 plenty of implementers either don't like it or don't care... 00:25:25 Archeron: If you aren't tied to R6RS, then your options split wide open, especially if you don't care if they are R6RS or R5RS or R4RS! 00:25:58 Some prolific coders maintain that any version of Scheme later than R4RS is a useless abomination, for reference. 00:26:02 *gnomon* stares in A.J.'s direction 00:26:03 Archeron: some people prefer R5RS than R6RS because it's more better 00:26:08 Archeron: R6RS is full of compromises and untested features, which have proven...less than satisfactory. 00:26:18 I don't think you'll gain or lose much until you are reacquainted enough to be able to effectively understand fully the differences between R5RS and R6RS. In other words, it probably doesn't matter much if you're just dipping your toe in the water. 00:26:19 hmmm... I will stay away from 4. 00:26:24 Archeron: keep in mind that many implementations got stuck on r4rs so being stuck on r5rs isn't great news. 00:26:44 for no reason other than I more enjoy typing 5's and 6's than I do 4's. 00:27:29 I just don't like how different R6 is...pick up a book about Scheme, and it'll work in an r5rs scheme no problem, but not true for r6rs (at least, for most books, some might have updated) 00:28:27 Archeron: If you just want to get recommendations, you can ask each of us for the one we use the most, and you'll probably get a huge list to choose from, and then you can throw a dart at them. 00:28:32 yes, 5 is prime and odd... way better than 6. 00:28:33 Or better yet, throw darts at the people who provided you with the list. 00:28:34 gnomon: I like the way you think. 00:28:34 and so is 7... /me prays. 00:29:17 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:29:25 mbishop: Which changes are you thinking about when you say that? 00:29:49 *jcowan* unvanishes, looking around cautiously for that dratted offby2 00:30:05 "a book about scheme" is a pretty broad topic, but the code in SICP will not work as-is in many R5RS implementations, while I'd imagine that much of TLS would work in a R6RS implementation. 00:30:40 ok... well... thanks for the help guys. 00:31:14 I will idle here as I am sure I will have more questions tomorrow on my way to being a grumpy old schemer. 00:32:34 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:33:42 chandler: hmm yeah I suppose that is true, I was thinking more of the use of IMPORT and such, but that isn't typically used in books 00:35:51 Given that ``import'' didn't exist in R5RS, yes. Any pre-R6RS coverage of module systems was bound to be tied to a particular implementation in any event. 00:39:00 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:41:04 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:47 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:47:53 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:01:58 R5RS is definitely not "better" than R6RS according to most interpretations of "better". 01:02:10 great you woke up eli! 01:02:12 *mbishop* runs 01:04:14 kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.209.116] has joined #scheme 01:04:18 It (R5RS) *is* better for a particular interpretation -- one that makes the CBV lambda calculus even better than R5RS. 01:06:08 -!- Xomas [n=wakeup@unaffiliated/xomas] has quit [] 01:06:59 Does anyone have any speculation on why there are no "serious" dynamically typed lazy languages? 01:07:40 jcowan, what do you mean by 'serious'? 01:07:58 Is it too obvious to make a crack about whether there are any serious lazy languages? 01:08:26 jcowan: Being lazy makes the kind of type errors that you get in a dynamically typed language *much* worse. 01:08:38 Ones that have been used for purposes other than teaching, research, and MFTL efforts. 01:08:39 Is it too obvious to make a crack about whether there are any serious languages? 01:09:13 If you have to ask if something is obvious, it probably is. 01:09:57 Lucid sort of fits; it buries the lazy/eager distinction by operating on explicit streams. 01:10:28 Plus, who wants a lazy language anyways? 01:10:31 I'm not familiar with Lucid. At the peril of asking you to answer your own question, can you name any other examples? 01:10:58 Arelius, I keep thinking that I should come up with some reason to like lazy languages, but I never seem to get around to doing it. 01:11:24 perhaps r6rs.org should contain info on standard implementation... 01:11:27 *gnomon* waits for the inevitable pause, crickets, and troutslap 01:11:50 I think that was too obvious to even ask if it was too obvious, gnomon. 01:12:28 jcowan: See http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.png 01:12:58 i know, implement lazy scheme on top of haskell... 01:13:19 gnomon: In the chain SASL '72 -> SASL '76 -> KRC -> Miranda -> Haskell, the first step is definitely dynamic eager and the last two are definitely static lazy. 01:13:22 Xomas [n=wakeup@unaffiliated/xomas] has joined #scheme 01:13:43 However, SASL '76 for sure, and KRC maybe, are dynamic lazy. 01:13:55 jcowan: Did you see that image? 01:14:19 *jcowan* goes to look 01:14:28 *gnomon* steals jcowan's seat 01:15:19 *pumpkin* is back! 01:15:23 all the italians are gone :o 01:15:24 Aren't declerative languages kinda lazy evaluated? 01:16:15 jcowan: In any case, when you're done with that, have a look at http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.png 01:16:25 Sorry, http://tmp.barzilay.org/y.png 01:17:16 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:17:19 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:25 There is no drscheme bug in the second image -- there really is no stack trace to show, since there is no stack -- the call chain succeeded successfully, and the bogus lazy value (= the computation) got carried all the way to the top. 01:18:03 The point is that debugging with a lazy language is difficult enough that lazy programmers need all the help they can get. 01:18:20 damn wireless 01:18:24 sladegen: And BTW, implementing a lazy scheme on top of scheme is much easier. 01:19:00 we're too lazy to debug our programs anyway 01:19:01 eli: fair enough, but even strongly typed languages have run time exceptions, and all of them will have the same problem. 01:19:24 Unless you believe that almost all errors are type errors. 01:20:01 they aren't? 01:20:02 jcowan: That's why I said "all the help they can get" -- debugging is certainly still a problem with Haskell^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a lazy language 01:20:52 Okay. The example of C++ clearly shows that static typing (assuming you don't use any of the type-busting features) is not enough for correctness. 01:21:17 *jcowan* wonders what would happen if Haskell had "integers" and "non-zero integers", so that division by 0 is a type error 01:21:27 But C++'s type system is not nearly as powerful as that of a modern FP. 01:21:29 or rather, it's a type error to even *attempt* to divide by 0 01:21:45 dependent types 01:22:05 jcowan: If you want to know one answer, you can try Typed Scheme in PLT, where you can do such things. 01:22:06 then you need to prove to your compiler that your values are good 01:22:23 GreyLensman: It has nothing to do with dependent types. 01:22:45 what doesn't? 01:22:51 I'm glad you said that, as I was left wondering. 01:22:55 you = eli 01:23:19 GreyLensman: a `NonZeroInteger' type. 01:24:14 I guess the moral is, the stronger your type system, the fewer correct operations you can actually do. 01:24:35 Thought it was, in fact is. My mistake I guess. 01:24:36 whether that's a good thing is debatable :) 01:24:50 so an expression like a/(b-c) can never type check 01:24:58 Is that the moral? If we're going to embrace static typing, I don't think dividing by an integer whose value has not be proven to be non-zero *is* a correct operation. 01:25:06 jcowan: That's (roughly) a classic tradeoff in choosing a type system. 01:25:57 jcowan: And an expression like a/(b-c) can typecheck in certain type systems that are too impractical to be used in most PLs. 01:26:41 Well, that's another tradeoff: eventually your type system becomes Turing-complete, and then you are not type checking your code, you are executing it. 01:26:43 Mostly, PL type systems are ones that can prove stuff automatically; but there are theorem provers that allow types where proving that something is well formed (= correctly typed) is not a trivial proof. 01:26:55 jcowan: not necessarily 01:27:02 but it does become quite a chore to prove things to the compiler 01:27:06 or rather, you are executing your metacode 01:27:40 either in a kindless language, or in a kinded one, and if that's at all clever, why, it's turtles all the way down. 01:28:04 well something like Agda tries to be more "practical" 01:28:13 is it possible to prove anything without executing a proof? 01:28:31 This is like the actor paradox: an actor gets a message and consults its behavior to know what to do; the behavior is an actor, so it must consult *its* behavior to know what to do, etc. 01:28:48 sladegen: Yes, in the sense of Turing-complete execution. 01:28:59 jcowan, that's like Zeno's paradox, if Zeno were a big nerd. 01:29:02 jcowan: The theorem prover thing is very relevant: usually proving well formedness is trivial and has no "computational content"; but when your type system is predicative (one that can turn any predicate into a type), things become different. 01:29:24 From Zeno to Zermelo in one breath 01:31:00 chandler: I don't know if you are being serious or ironic 01:31:00 *sladegen* wonders if chaitin is the last word on the topic. 01:31:33 Does it have to be one or the other? 01:31:49 I didn't say "serious xor ironic", did I? 01:32:02 Ah. 01:32:04 *jcowan* chuckles non-ironically. 01:32:16 In any event, I was mostly being serious. 01:33:45 *jcowan* got started on all this by reading about J.C. Reynolds' Forsythe 01:34:05 which is strongly typed, lazy, and directly imperative, as Algol 60 was 01:35:04 The paper starts with a little 3-d chart showing representative static/dynamic, eager/lazy, and functional/imperative languages, but there's a big gap at lazy dynamic 01:35:32 was it pure? 01:35:45 Perhaps a lazy, dynamic language should simply define all operations to be type-correct. 01:35:45 I guess not if you're talking about directly imperative 01:35:45 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 01:35:57 it sounds painful to have laziness without referential transparency 01:36:17 Right. There is a CBN lambda calculus on top of a simple imperative language without even (user-defined) procedures. 01:36:45 But the key is that nothing that happens at the imperative level can affect what happens at the lambda calc level. 01:38:18 So, for example, there are variables of simple types (int, real, char, bool) 01:39:01 but there are no variables whose values are procedures or arrays (which are a type of procedure) or labels (which are procedures of type any -> completion) 01:40:32 and "newvar" is a primitive procedure that pushes a variable on the stack, initializes it to a value, executes a command (parameterless procedure in CBN), and pops the variable. 01:42:45 In principle, then, a Forsythe interpreter is a pair of coroutines, one which expands lambdas (possibly an unlimited number of times) and passes simple imperative commands (assignments, conditionals, etc.) to an interpreter. 01:44:11 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 01:46:47 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:23 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:59:31 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:02:59 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:55 -!- kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.209.116] has left #scheme 02:19:08 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:30:38 brianski [n=ski@pool-74-96-2-232.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:31:07 what is the easiest way to play around with lisp/scheme on an ubuntu linux machine? 02:32:29 brianski, you could mess around with rudybot. 02:32:36 rudybot, eval: (+ 1 2 3) 02:32:36 gnomon: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 02:32:44 rudybot, eval (+ 1 2 3) 02:32:45 gnomon: your sandbox is ready 02:32:45 gnomon: ; Value: 6 02:33:12 brianski, failing that, you could use $FAVOURITE_PACKAGE_MANAGER to install PLT Scheme, which has a nice pretty GUI. 02:33:36 gnomon: that's what i'm looking for, thanks 02:33:56 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 02:34:21 what's the point of rudybot telling people their sandbox is ready each time? 02:35:20 pumpkin_, just a note that you're not continuing a previous session in which, say, you've redefined '+' to be '/'. 02:35:25 ah 02:36:38 is there a way to do anonymous functions in scheme? 02:37:08 lambda? 02:37:19 rudybot, eval (map (lambda (x) (+ x 3) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) 02:37:20 gnomon: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 02:37:27 *gnomon* facepalms violently 02:37:33 rudybot, eval (map (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) 02:37:33 gnomon: ; Value: (4 5 6 7 8 9) 02:38:14 oh yes 02:38:19 brianski, the LAMBDA procedure converts a list of symbols into a procedure; the DEFINE procedure associates a procedure with a name. 02:38:28 gnomon: thanks 02:38:42 it's been over a decade since i last played with this style of language seriously 02:39:13 good ol' dylan 02:42:01 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-109-2-157.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:43:33 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:04 gnomon: DEFINE does more than that. DEFINE is not just for procedures. 02:45:49 also lambda/define are not procedures, but syntax 02:46:01 arcfide, sure, but I didn't want to just dump a load of technicalities and syntactic sugar in brianski's lap. 02:46:04 so define just binds something to a name, right? 02:46:22 Right. 02:46:32 iow is the canonical way to define a named function (define function (lambda ... )) ? 02:46:39 Given a value and a name, DEFINE will bind that value to the given name. 02:47:10 brianski: That's probably the best way when you're learning, but plenty of people use a little extra sugar in R5RS+ Schemes that allow for (define (proc arg1 arg2 ...) ...). 02:47:41 hmm 02:48:06 so if the symbol proc isn't already defined, it interprets that as a function definition? 02:48:31 ie how does it distinguish that from (define 3-plus-3 (+ 3 3)) 02:48:39 or is it the extra set of parens? 02:48:45 brianski: (DEFINE (PROC REST ...) B1 B2 ...) => (DEFINE PROC (LAMBDA (REST ...) B1 B2 ...). 02:49:03 ok gotcha 02:49:13 brianski: It's basically a direct transformation like that, and nothing more special is going on. 02:49:14 so its the parens, yea? 02:49:21 Yes. 02:49:24 cool 02:49:26 thanks 02:50:57 wow, gambit has #!optional support? 02:51:23 kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.209.116] has joined #scheme 02:51:28 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:15 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176193230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:58:40 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:59:09 I'm so stoked on Tiny Scheme 02:59:53 *pumpkin_* pumps it with gas to make it bigger 03:09:44 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:46 not trying to flame here, honest .... is it all in my head or is scheme (and for that matter common lisp) unnecessarily fragmented with a billion different implementations? 03:11:10 brianski: It's your imagination man 03:13:55 hmm so when i run drscheme it tells me to choose a language... i know what R5RS is, but what about lazy scheme, swindle, etc? 03:14:02 C is fragmented with billion of different libraries. 03:14:07 remove the parenthetical statement, unnecessarily and "a billion" from that sentence and it approaches truth. 03:14:38 sladegen: not debating that 03:14:40 brianski: lazy scheme is an awesome language. But most people use the Module language since it's a bad idea to save a file without specifying what language it's in explicitly. 03:15:05 and each C program is ad hoc, half-finished, bug-ridden implementation of.... 03:15:21 sladegen: yeah i'm not comparing c to scheme here 03:15:27 just asking about scheme 03:15:35 i'm well aware of the problems with C :-) 03:15:50 You can use any language in plt with the "#lang" thingy, if drscheme starts out as the Module language. mred and mzscheme both assume "Module" language to start with. 03:16:19 drscheme just lets you change to another language in a menu, mostly for teaching or demonstration purposes. 03:16:32 is there a way to get paren matching in mzscheme as i type? 03:16:35 Actually I really don't know why drscheme does that. 03:16:39 it's not problem with C or scheme... it's problem of linguistic and incomputability... anyway. 03:16:45 No. 03:16:50 bummer. 03:17:03 Not a bummer. Just use drscheme. 03:17:25 synx: yeah but if i wanna do it over ssh, that means i have to install X11 libs and forward X and bleck 03:17:49 brianski: use emacs or rlwrap. 03:17:55 Uh, well I don't know if you should do that. 03:17:59 rlwrap? 03:18:12 *brianski* afraid of emacs 03:18:16 synx: yes, readline has peren matching. 03:18:27 oh... 03:18:30 also, what is the proper way to exit from mzscheme? 03:18:38 Not sure mzscheme uses readline, but I guess probably. 03:18:59 An EOF will exit from mzscheme's prompt. Also (quit) 03:19:02 (exit) or Ctrl+D 03:19:08 ah i was missing parens. thanks 03:19:14 You could install drscheme on the machine you're working on, but run the programs remotely over ssh... 03:19:18 ... 03:19:24 or quittowhatever. 03:19:38 does drscheme have a PhD or an MD? 03:19:43 it's (exit) not (quit) my bad 03:19:44 or even a JD? 03:19:57 JD? 03:19:59 hey rlwrap does the trick 03:20:00 thanks 03:20:13 Juris Doctor 03:20:17 He's the Doc Doc D-d-d-d-dick 03:20:30 finally, my hfs+ extended attribute -> sexpr extractor is working, and so backups from OS X box -> Linux server are finally safe 03:20:32 Never heard of rlwrap before, huh... 03:20:48 whoops, that was meant for #chicken 03:21:02 pumpkin_: perhaps doctor of economics as it's monopolizing #scheme ;) 03:21:55 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has joined #scheme 03:23:18 sladegen: does rlwrap know something in particular about mzscheme? i'm a bit curious as to how this works. seems like magic... 03:23:30 sladegen: plt is like the homeless bum of scheme, just hanging out in public asking people for spare change 03:23:44 ah 03:23:45 slashcom: no 03:23:48 OMG rlwrap is like that one awesome program for DOS! 03:23:50 *brianski* runs rlwrap cat and all is explained 03:23:55 The one that enables command history 03:24:15 brianski: You can dump rlwrap, 03:24:18 oh and this will be handy in other places too. neato 03:24:24 *sladegen* oopsiez 03:24:38 brianski: Start mzscheme, and do (require readline), and then (install-readline!) 03:25:10 brianski: This will make your mzscheme use readline by itself (which will also give you better completions etc) 03:25:31 eli: it doesn't match parentheses though 03:25:48 synx: Sure it does. 03:25:54 why are you using parentheses in scheme 03:26:16 I have to count how many parentheses to type, there's no indicator of when they end. 03:26:19 eli: it doesnt match parens by defaul as far as i can tell 03:26:25 pumpkin_: Definitely Ph.D, and re your rudybot question -- you could also forget that you required a non-`scheme' evaluation last time, and it will remember it. 03:27:01 eli: are you perchance from cornell? 03:27:03 brianski: Well, customizing readline is something that is worth doing if you're going to use it. 03:27:10 brianski: Yes. 03:27:14 ha! 03:27:18 ? 03:27:26 you taught me cs212 (i think that was the number) over a decade ago 03:27:38 The ha! indeed... 03:27:51 s/The/Then/ 03:28:01 what, don't you remember me! ;-) 03:28:15 Years of hard drinking will do that to you. 03:28:17 If you tell me your name, I might... 03:28:30 eli: doubt it. brian szymanski. 03:28:32 Now all we need is mzscheme to display ANSI colors as you type 03:28:45 brianski, so you have a brother named Mark, by chance..? 03:28:56 brianski: Yeah, I just found you. 03:29:00 hehe szymanski is a common last name. 03:29:09 eli: is that you outside?? 03:29:32 eli keeps satellite watch on all his students...because he knows what he taught them... 03:29:49 brianski: you were in the same class as Shawn and possibly Emmanuel. 03:30:17 eli: if you say so ;-) 03:30:19 aka 'the good students' 03:30:30 zbigniew: yeap ;-) 03:30:50 brianski, zbigniew: No -- the ones I'm still in touch with. 03:31:14 brianski: And looking at the grades, you did pretty well. 03:31:40 thank gods 03:31:45 [brianski: BTW, yes, it's me outside, with the laptop and the surveillance equipment.] 03:31:49 man eli would fail me so hard 03:32:00 learn everything, and still couldn't stay in line long enough to get good grades 03:32:03 eli: how did i do? 03:32:09 *brianski* should get an old college transcript for kicks 03:32:33 Don't. They're usually an exercise in pain, which leads to heavy drinking, &c. 03:32:35 you don't remember your own grades o.o 03:32:48 synx: heavy drinking, &c. 03:33:08 nah no heavy drinking just other priorities. i feel like that was a class i got an A in but i could be wrong 03:34:21 ah :) 03:35:01 admittedly I do usually get good grades, just not when so horribly depressed that I engage in self destructive studying habits. Kind of up and down... 03:35:44 brianski: Looks like it would be in the neighberhood of A. 03:36:02 brianski: I don't have the final grades, but you did pretty well in the semester. 03:36:29 eli: word. thanks 03:36:31 brianski: Oh, and there's also Aleksey Kliger in your class. 03:36:38 oh that name rings a bell 03:36:56 do you remember a kfir shay? i don't remember if he was in that course or not, but he was the same year as me 03:37:12 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c023h065.dorm.reed.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:37:32 Yes, I remember him -- he wasn't in your class, possibly took it later, or maybe didn't take it at all. 03:40:36 *brianski* just glad i didn't run into the guy who taught that matlab crap 03:41:49 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:41:56 I hate matlab 03:41:58 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:42:08 Numerical Analysis and Differential Equations... shiver 03:42:10 why do they insist we use this low quality commercial language 03:42:35 Numerical Analysis and Differential Equations is great, just until exam time -- the exam is not about 'Numerical Analysis and Differential Equations' it's calculutor proficiency 03:42:46 can you push button on that thing at 40cpm 03:42:58 soupdragon: it could be worse. almost everything else at my school was in java. which meant for doing io scheduling some guy had written a disk simulator in java which we interfaced.... 03:43:06 teaching APL or J would much more beneficial to both student and teacher 03:43:18 probably APL is unrealistic these days 03:44:03 It's because matlab has all those pretty demo programs. 03:44:11 Mexican hat curve <3 03:44:39 I believe it's because of social factors, not techincal ones 03:44:49 same reason they use windows 95 or whatever 03:45:02 synx: mexican hat curve? is that like a tilde ~ ? 03:45:37 oh that's badass. i had no idea there were mainstream programming languages that used non-ASCII chars like that. 03:48:22 is EVAL important to have in Scheme? 03:49:12 yes, I use it as MUCH as possible, even when totally unnecessary 03:49:12 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 03:50:26 brianski: Well, you took the class with Dexter, I'd consider that lucky... 03:50:56 who's dexter? 03:51:05 synx: I don't know about failing, but one thing that this class would begin with is an introduction to newsgroups -- and a requirement to use it. 03:51:11 brianski: Dexter Kozen. 03:51:27 oh the prof 03:52:05 brianski: But actually, you might have taken it with Ramin, maybe. 03:52:23 kozen definitely looks familiar 03:52:27 ah newsgroups 03:52:48 where you can post a message and a thousand spammers will use your identity as their own 03:53:05 brianski: If you didn't have him in PL, you probably did later in theory (or whatever that course was/is called) 03:53:07 -!- socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-62-87-243-49.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:53:41 where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain 03:53:51 synx: No, newsgroups can be local to a school and hidden from spammers -- at least the one that are not in your school too. 03:54:16 eli: Well at that point just fire up PHPBB and call it a day! 03:54:55 *eli* pukes in synx's general direction 03:55:39 hehe I can see some validity in a private news server. 03:55:59 I could still impersonate anyone else on the server though, and you could never be sure whether it was them or not. 03:56:58 I never trust anything on a newsgroup that isn't PGP signed. Ironically, it's nearly impossible to use PGP signatures to authorize posters. 03:57:26 synx: Not when the server requires authentication, and definitely not when the potential damage involves a discipline committee. 03:57:56 socialite [n=piespy@dynamic-78-8-4-130.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined #scheme 03:57:57 synx: I never seen anything important on college newsgroups except for TA announcements and flamewars. 03:58:42 eli: The authentication isn't recorded in any of the RFC822 headers that I'm aware of. 03:59:19 zbigniew: Yeah I guess it's kind of silly to think about impersonating people on a class assigned news server. It's just not my favorite protocol. 03:59:36 While at the same time being my favorite protocol. Just needs a little...work. 03:59:39 synx: I'm very happy for RFC822. 03:59:39 -!- kuatto [n=kuatto@174.124.209.116] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:33 zbigniew: In Cornell the nntp server was heavily used -- especially in the class that brianski is talking about, there was even a .talk subgroup, and both were pretty busy. 04:00:50 when I tell NNTP "HEAD" all it gives me are the RFC822 headers, so that's all I have to work with in terms of identifying someone. 04:01:06 That must be the 30th time I've answered "yes, install the required dependencies" just to install a single CPAN module. 04:01:56 annoying innit foof 04:01:56 Seriously, if you can't go through the trouble to figure out the full prerequisites ahead of time, at least give me a "yes to all" option. 04:02:18 foof: o conf configure and you can change that 04:02:24 foof: at least int he latest versions of CPAN.pm 04:03:18 I know you can, but there should still be a way to say "yes to all" mid-install, insteading of cancelling the whole thing, reading the CPAN config documentation, changing the setting and restarting the install. 04:03:20 eli: I see, it was virtually one-way only from what I recall 04:03:41 And to think 10 years ago I thought CPAN was sophisticated :/ 04:03:55 foof: have you played with CPANPLUS ? 04:04:07 never heard of it 04:04:08 it probably depends how much you want to post messages yourself zbigniew 04:04:13 foof: http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/03/26/cpanplus.html 04:04:37 cpan plus? 04:04:57 Setting: A warm August day, somewhere in Amsterdam. 04:05:02 zbigniew: Yeah, it's difficult to get students to be more involved. I do whatever I can. 04:06:46 'CPAN PLUS currently contains 17 modules' 04:06:52 Wish I could figure out a way to authenticate posters based on the signature of their data in a post to an NNTP server. It's just too much of an overhaul though... 04:07:25 "It's high priority to create backward compatibility with the current CPAN.pm" 04:07:26 zbigniew: hmm that's odd 04:07:43 brianski: 17 modules being the CPLAN PLUS code itself 04:07:47 i use straight CPAN to be honest, but everyone says its better 04:11:20 to be honest, I rarely ever use CPAN -- it's faster to download everything by hand, and you can blit the installed directory to as many machines as you want 04:11:47 plus enterprise servers are rarely connected to the internet in an unrestricted manner... 04:12:13 zbigniew: yeah i use cpan once per new machine to install all the dependencies for the stuff i need 04:12:45 zbigniew: that's not a good idea if you have different perl versions, OSes, or architectures, (but you probably don't) 04:13:09 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:14:33 brianski: obviously ;) you can also blit the source over and quickly build it ;) 04:15:14 *brianski* will be very happy when the last of my ia32 production machines dies 04:16:15 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:16:58 darn lazy admins never want to build or install any perl modules outside the core, nor can you trust them to keep everything working if they did, so my apps are always totally self-contained ;) 04:17:28 zbigniew: i go back and forth on that 04:17:35 anyway, CPAN makes me appreciate felix's philosophy of "there's only one way to do it (mine)" 04:18:00 zbigniew: who what? 04:18:01 or TOOWTDIM 04:18:46 ... the trouble is M has many different values 04:18:56 Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-58-210-70.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:19:02 nope, only one 04:20:06 felix is implementor of chicken scheme. 04:20:14 my friend came up with a novel solution to combat lossy admins: in his Word documentation for his perl apps, he is now placing at the end, in 4-point type, a base64-encoding of the entire code tarball 04:20:47 zbigniew: huh? you have admins that delete code willy nilly? 04:20:48 then, when they lose the code yet again, it can easily be recovered! 04:21:01 No, they just forget where it is. 04:21:19 Or make a change and break it ;) 04:21:36 sladegen: vrai 04:22:52 wraithement. 04:23:59 heh. google search 'wraithment', 1 result and; "Did you mean: wrathement" 04:24:12 google 'wrathement'; "Your search - wrathement - did not match any documents" 04:24:18 thx goog 04:26:14 it's a mishmash of wraith and vraiment. 04:26:18 I meant 'wraithement' for the first search. 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[n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:30:00 X-Scale: thanks, this confirms my idea. So basically, I reinvented let :) Makes for a great learning effect. 10:35:40 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:11:36 :-) 11:13:07 Leonidas: check "4.1 Primitive expression types" where you can see the basic building blocks of the language (plus macros) 11:17:40 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C4319E.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:17:53 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 11:29:52 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c2391BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 11:35:38 eli: Thanks for the info! 11:51:58 higepon934 [n=taro@FL1-118-111-20-61.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 11:52:15 keyofnight [n=key@cpe-76-171-76-175.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:53:31 Hello. (: 11:58:40 morning 11:59:23 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 12:13:47 la la la 12:15:49 elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 12:29:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-64.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:36:17 -!- Lilarcor [n=Lilarcor@208-58-210-70.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["The Lord of Murder Shall Perish."] 12:46:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:09:58 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 13:12:09 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:15:21 sepult_ [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has joined #scheme 13:25:53 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-209-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["-_-"] 13:27:38 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 13:28:03 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:28:27 roderic [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 13:30:44 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-25-57.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:44 -!- buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-122-228.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:41:13 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.168.80] has joined #scheme 13:43:54 What would be a good way of going about transforming, say, (fn ) => (lambda () ())? Example: (fn + 1 $) => (lambda (G001) (+ 1 G001)) 13:45:16 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:04 (define-syntax fn 13:46:08 (syntax-rules ($) 13:46:32 ((fn ) (lambda ($) )))) 13:47:14 no actually this is completely wronga 13:47:23 just ignore that 13:48:25 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 13:49:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 13:50:14 Quadrescence: you can write a procedural macro to code-walk the expressions and replace $ with whatever you want to call it 13:52:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 13:54:58 Deos chicken shceme have shift reset? 13:55:55 continuations 13:59:57 http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/3/F-operator.html 14:00:22 :C 14:00:23 thanks 14:00:29 it doesnt work on chicken 4 I gguess 14:00:36 It hasn't been ported yet 14:00:37 I'll try and compile it anyway 14:00:50 Shouldn't be too hard to port 14:02:51 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:50 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 14:05:58 -!- Guest79045 is now known as mike____ 14:08:49 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:11:41 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:13:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 14:25:26 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has quit [Client Quit] 14:30:22 sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has joined #scheme 14:30:55 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176193230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Client exiting"] 14:36:15 rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 14:39:21 tjafk [n=timj@e176193230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:42:38 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:55:57 -!- higepon934 [n=taro@FL1-118-111-20-61.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:09:38 -!- tabe [n=tabe@adel.fixedpoint.jp] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (berkeley-unix)"] 15:14:01 tabe [n=tabe@adel.fixedpoint.jp] has joined #scheme 15:23:03 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-228-99.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:26:05 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:27:03 -!- mike____ [n=m@dslb-088-066-249-036.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:28:14 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:14 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A2471.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:57 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:38:02 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #scheme 15:40:56 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 15:43:26 Quadrescence: are you still here 15:43:43 Yes. I made a junky tree-walker 15:44:36 I have a way without tree walking 15:44:44 (define ($) (shift k (lambda (x) (k x)))) 15:44:44 (define-syntax fn 15:44:44 (syntax-rules () 15:44:44 ((fn ...) (reset ( ...))))) 15:45:00 that lets you do: ((fn + 1 ($)) 3) ~> 4 15:45:34 Damnit, I need to go pick up siblings. I'll brb 15:45:47 (((fn + ($) ($)) 3) 4) ~> 7 15:47:02 that's pretty neat 15:48:00 ($)^($) 16:00:39 wingo [n=wingo@58.Red-83-32-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:02:47 HG` [n=wells@xdslgc133.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 16:04:43 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.242.57] has joined #scheme 16:07:40 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:48 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:14:08 -!- wingo [n=wingo@58.Red-83-32-71.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:12 soupdragon: I don't quite understand what's going on there 16:18:22 you're not the only one :P 16:18:45 this ($) grabs the whole context up to the reset and makes it into a function where ($) is the hole 16:19:27 so (reset (f (shift k (lambda (x) (k x))))) ~> (lambda (x) (f x)) 16:25:17 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@87.78.122.228] has quit ["leaving"] 16:28:39 wingo [n=wingo@162.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:30:06 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:38:25 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:45:28 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:48:35 rudybot: eval (define ($) (shift k (lambda (x) (k x)))) 16:48:36 proq: your sandbox is ready 16:48:40 rudybot: eval (define-syntax fn (syntax-rules () ((fn ...) (reset ( ...))))) 16:48:49 rudybot: eval ((fn + 1 ($)) 3) 16:48:49 proq: error: reference to undefined identifier: reset 16:50:31 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 16:50:40 *wingo* admits to not understanding shift and reset. 16:54:05 -!- Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:42 soupdragon: What is reset/shift? 16:57:17 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:29 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-79-19.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 17:01:05 korvin [n=korvin@host-108-145-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #scheme 17:01:09 soupdragon: Oh, I see. 17:01:13 re all 17:09:35 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@93.37.242.57] has quit [] 17:11:15 npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 17:13:04 -!- npe_ [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:59 wingo: http://3e8.org/pub/shift-reset.jpg 17:27:13 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:28:30 -!- wingo [n=wingo@162.Red-79-156-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:29:35 zbigniew: you killed him 17:30:11 Probably a blinding flash of insight. 17:35:03 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:32 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslgc133.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:46 well that explains it, rudybot must not have a reset key on his keyboard 17:43:25 will shift/escape work? 17:43:51 oh no, that would be ambiguous 17:48:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 17:58:17 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-228-99.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:26 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:48 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:08:35 Hiato [n=1@dsl-245-14-154.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:18:24 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f050212097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:42 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:32:02 -!- rtra [n=user@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:32:31 Deformati [n=joe@c-76-112-68-228.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:17 Riastradh: In parscheme, how do I access the parser context inside a parser combinator, so I can take a different branch depending on context? 18:50:09 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:50:34 -!- soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:50:42 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has left #scheme 18:52:25 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:52:46 rotty: (*parser (context (parser:context)) (if ...)) 18:53:00 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-71-238-45-45.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:12 -!- Deformati is now known as Deformative 18:58:09 ooooh plt 4.2 is out 18:58:54 Riastradh: thx. 19:04:08 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:08:20 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-228-99.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 19:08:38 -!- korvin [n=korvin@host-108-145-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:15:38 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 19:19:52 -!- Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:20:13 Mestoco [n=user@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 19:24:02 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.5.188] has joined #scheme 19:25:46 man scribble still takes forever 19:27:19 where can I find a good introductory tutorial for scheme? 19:28:10 We have a few "scheme for other language programmers" tutorials on the chicken wiki: chicken.wiki.br 19:28:28 They're not full tutorials, more like rosetta stones 19:28:53 Greg02 [n=greg@ool-18bc79e7.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:29:17 Thanks... I'll take a look 19:29:24 wingo [n=wingo@209.Red-81-39-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:31:20 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 19:36:31 seems that the longest compile time with scribble is rendering those stupid search pages 19:36:44 have to recreate them with every added planet package. 19:39:05 elias` [n=c@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 19:40:26 -!- wingo [n=wingo@209.Red-81-39-161.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:35 X-Scale2 [i=email@89-180-130-239.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 19:46:16 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:08 metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:20 -!- Hiato [n=1@dsl-245-14-154.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:52:39 wingo [n=wingo@145.Red-81-38-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:58:49 -!- Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.5.188] has left #scheme 20:00:44 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-194-236.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:01:48 nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-064-132-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:01:50 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-64.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:04:32 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 20:16:00 -!- hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:16:25 Hallo hallo, #scheme 20:17:43 keyofnight: hi 20:18:58 hosh [n=hosh@c-71-199-176-82.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:14 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 20:20:15 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 20:34:35 mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:40:56 -!- m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [""If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will] 20:41:29 -!- jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:54 chris2 [n=cky@166.166.114.83] has joined #scheme 20:42:06 -!- cky [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:42:12 -!- chris2 is now known as cky 20:46:10 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:48:22 -!- cky [n=cky@166.166.114.83] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:48:32 chris2 [n=cky@h122.140.132.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 20:48:40 -!- chris2 is now known as cky 20:51:11 chris2 [n=cky@h71.56.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:21 -!- cky [n=cky@h122.140.132.98.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:51:27 -!- chris2 is now known as cky 20:51:30 synx: Are you serious? 20:51:55 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 20:52:41 -!- cky [n=cky@h71.56.133.98.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:52:51 chris2 [n=cky@cpe-024-211-255-155.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:52:57 -!- chris2 is now known as cky 20:53:57 *keyofnight* grins. 20:54:07 The little schemer is sehr cool. 20:54:39 eli: Yeah, installing the planet package means you need to add it to that "user search" page that planet builds, which takes a while to recreate as far as just me eyeballing the log. 20:55:20 synx: no, I asked about the way you connected "ooooh" and "plt 4.2 is out". 20:55:51 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:11 Yes. 20:56:25 *wingo* wonders how emacs' "coding:" directive works. 20:56:30 I use plt, and it's exciting to see a new version. 20:57:37 JFYI: it came out more than a week ago -- whenever that happens I send out messages on the mailing lists, newsgroups, the plt blog, freshmeat, and a bunch of others. I practically notify half of the planet and their dogs. 20:57:38 I think eli's got his paranoia turned up to 11. 20:58:13 m811 [n=user@106.250.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 20:58:14 (synx: This is re the no email thing...) 20:58:17 chandler: huh? 20:58:26 :) 20:59:09 eli: re having to ask if synx was serious about being excited about the 4.2 release 20:59:11 Well I can't subscribe to the mailing list, and my ISP provides no newsgroups, and I check the website more often than I check the blog. 20:59:43 No eli was complaining that I didn't learn about it until a week after the release. 21:00:52 Ah. 21:01:06 -!- roderic [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:12 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 21:06:33 ken-p [n=ken-p@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 21:07:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:18:06 incubot: fanatical followers fantastic for frenchise 21:18:09 It seems I should start my own crystal ball frenchise. 21:18:42 incubot: palantirs unlimited 21:18:45 hmmm my impression is that to build a full actor model language you'd need an OS or language feature which supports a theoretically unlimited number of threads 21:18:55 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:21:27 incubot: hold the mayonnaise 21:21:30 hey, USians, I know it is possible to temporarily ask the Postal Service to hold your mail. Can you do the same with Fedex and UPS? Does anyone know? 21:21:44 Lame. 21:24:14 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:35 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:27:38 incubot: be eco-friendly, recycle, e-bay contents of your trashcan! 21:27:41 isn't there something more user-friendly? 21:29:37 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 21:38:37 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:39:16 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-228-99.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["0-0"] 21:39:34 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:14 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:43:46 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:45:44 ikaros [n=ikaros@f050212097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 21:45:46 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:46:03 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 21:46:13 jao [n=jao@249.Red-88-18-102.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:27 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 22:01:04 -!- nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-064-132-061.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #scheme 22:01:52 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:11 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f050212097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 22:06:14 wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has joined #scheme 22:14:34 -!- rumbleca is now known as rbancroft 22:17:07 -!- wy_ [n=wy@66.194.68.209] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:28:54 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:30:57 Mestoco` [n=user@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:31:43 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:31:59 -!- elias` [n=c@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:51 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs162149.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:44:09 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:45:12 -!- Mestoco [n=user@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:53 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0557CB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:50:12 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:50:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:58:14 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:03:25 X-Scale: will do, thanks. I have printed out R5RS and read through it, but clearly not into too much detail. 23:04:46 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 23:06:29 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 23:15:22 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.211.141] has joined #scheme 23:23:24 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:27:16 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:28:07 -!- Mestoco` [n=user@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:53 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit ["Linkinus is updating..."] 23:29:30 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:30:45 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:58 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:31:06 What's new? 23:32:09 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:25 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:33:22 arcfide: with respect to Scheme or in general? 23:33:26 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:38 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:34:00 ice_man`: Take your pick. 23:35:27 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:47 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:36:57 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:37:15 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:39:11 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:29 arcfide: I work from home, so the past 400 days have been pretty much the same: wake up, take my dexedrine to focus, and spend the next 12 hours writing code in an attempt to launch my startup. In the process, try to stay afloat paying bills by writing shitty ruby on rails code in the minimum amount of time possible, trying to move to keep the blood circulating, trying to go to bed before 6 am (with great difficulty) 23:39:29 time to spend with the fiancee, that type of thing... meh... you? 23:39:59 *sladegen* shovels dirt. 23:40:36 Oh, me? Be lazy and procrastinate your long list of things to do before finally getting to it at an hour too late to be effective. 23:41:24 -!- wingo [n=wingo@145.Red-81-38-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:41:43 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:41:55 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:28 arcfide: the days are way too short, it seems. 23:44:09 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:44:45 ice_man`: If I didn't goof off and actually did my work, they would be much more effective. :-) It also helps not to sleep too long. 23:46:50 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 23:46:54 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:56 arcfide: I tried that, it doesn't work. The amount of work expands until it fills all available time, and reaches an equilibrium when it exceeds it by 10 or 15%... :) 23:48:07 ice_man`: Well, I don't care if I get it all done, I just care about making as much progress as I can in a day. 23:48:30 ice_man`: I mean, you prioritize things so that you do the most important first, and ya know, you just don't have time for some things in your lifetime. 23:50:21 ice_man`: wow... you make your day sound horrible. 23:53:37 keyofnight: is it really that bad? I've been doing it for so long that I can't really tell anymore...I get satisfaction from constantly improving, however. Scheme brings great pleasure to me, for one...I am, indeed, happy...I just recognize that this is something that I must do, with the alternative as being a wage slave for the next 40 years of my life. I associate great pain with that, and pleasure with the opposit 23:54:36 ice_man`: I'm more referring to the ruby-on-rails part of your day. :( 23:58:25 eli is stealing the show ;) http://bit.ly/socirc 23:59:20 sladegen: I guess the rest of us need to get cooking then. 23:59:29 keyofnight: well, rails isn't that bad, really, coding with it feels kind of like filling out some elaborate form...most of what one needs to do with it has already been done, and it's just a matter of fitting the lego pieces together...it's a bit of a joke actually...the main trouble with it is that it gives one no competitive edge in any way... 23:59:50 sladegen: That can't be right. All lines should point to incubot.