00:00:22 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 00:01:29 How is everyone tonight? 00:03:02 arcfide: scheming by a warm jacuzzi, while bugs bunny plays in the background 00:04:02 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:04:36 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:00 arcfide: but that would require you to extrapolate a how from a what 00:06:21 klutometis: I guess that is a mite better than hacking at a laptop at a sorry excuse for a desk in a dimly lit room. :-) 00:06:34 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-121-9.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:49 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 00:07:47 arcfide: not necessarily; stoicism is good for clarity, i think 00:07:54 Fnord. 00:08:08 Cat got your tounge? 00:08:38 No, cat got my lounge, and now I can't lounge any more. He's much better at it than I am. 00:08:59 Actually, i think some music would help the muse in me a bit. I prefer some good alternations of heart thumping tempos and soft, lyrical classics to keep my mind sharp and my fingers fast. :-) 00:09:16 Riastradh: watching you interact with the PLT crowd is hilarious, btw; they seem defensive and hostile, for some reason. 00:09:29 riastradh: Most Felines seem to major in various specializations of lounging and self-indulgence. 00:09:33 I like to use a file to keep my fingers sharp and caffeine to make my mind fast. 00:09:41 ...oh, wait, I got those backwards. 00:10:10 klutometis: Not that there aren't other defensive communities, but I'm inclined to think that they are usually pretty defensive. ;-) 00:10:14 klutometis, oh? I didn't get that impression. 00:10:30 [^^^ Pure PLT flamebait, BTW] 00:11:48 raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e7aecc14e9a5e67c] has joined #scheme 00:12:15 Both Ryan Culpepper and Matthew Flatt agreed that parameters and composable continuations don't mix well; nobody seemed to be hostilely defending the semantics implemented in PLT Scheme. 00:12:26 Riastradh: How exactly does a nail file (or are we talking about a more sophisticated file here?) keep your mind sharp? 00:12:32 Or do we even want to know? 00:12:48 arcfide, I got backwards the adjective/noun pairs that you used. 00:13:00 You spoke of keeping your mind sharp and your fingers fast; I spoke of keeping my mind fast and my fingers sharp. 00:13:18 Ah, oui. 00:13:24 But do you keep your fingers sharp? 00:13:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:36 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.180.113] has joined #scheme 00:13:37 chandler: I assume he has to have a way to get even with his cat, no? 00:13:38 You'll have to meet me to find out. 00:14:10 They do say that some pet owners start to resemble their pets... 00:14:30 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.180.113] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:22 Riastradh: on second reading, maybe you're right; i got a prima facie sense of over-compensating formality, but that may have been my prejudice. 00:16:39 Prejudice? From you about PLT? No way! 00:18:04 There seem to be a few people who can gracefully tow a neutral line around PLT, but the people I tend to meet either love or loathe it. 00:26:49 In case anyone missed this, Matthew agreed that the problem that Riastradh reported *is* a problem, and that he will think about fixing it and keeping the efficiency. 00:27:19 The previous response from Ryan was merely explaining what causes that behavior he did not defend it; and in fact, in his last message he said that he ran into some related problems too. 00:27:59 According to my interpretation, and especially seeing people take more time to consider it a relatively stressed week, there was nothing remotely close to hostile. 00:29:28 What's the running time of HASH-SET ? 00:30:02 And, arcfide: I don't think that PLT in general is nearly as defensive as other camps, if only because the PLT group is pretty diverse (both conceptually and physically). 00:30:24 Riastradh: IIRC, the implementation is RB trees or something similar. 00:30:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:30:43 OK. 00:31:39 There was a recent post where someone asked about the costs, and Matthew wrote a quick description of where things stand. 00:31:57 eli: Ah, come on now, you're not supposed to *take* the bait! :-P PLT is a lot less defensive, IME, than OpenBSD, which I usually spend much time in. 00:32:32 Although, I don't know if defensive is the right word for OpenBSD -- harsh, demanding, unwavering, stubborn? 00:32:57 Riastradh: I think that the bottom line was that mutable hash tables are still faster, but the difference is some low factor, and that you'll choose the immutable version if you need the benefits (eg, being able to hold on to the different versions of the table) 00:33:02 Adamantine? Obstreperous? 00:33:39 arcfide: Well, I get the feeling that OS developers tend to be much more ... brutal? 00:33:53 Just what I like in my operating systems. 00:33:54 Much more machoism going on there. 00:34:00 eli, by `low factor', do you mean as in a logarithmic or similar sublinear factor, or as in a constant factor? 00:34:32 arcfide: ouch; i used to party with openBSD hackers: the per capita concentration of tattoos, booze and weed was unusually high (anecdotally speaking) 00:34:37 eli: Personal, Operating systems and Language implementations could both stand in general to be a little more brutal. 00:34:42 s/Personal/Personally/ 00:35:34 s/brutal/poorly socialized 00:35:45 Riastradh: I'm not sure I'll do some quick grepping. 00:35:53 klutometis: *shrug* They write a mean OS. :-) 00:35:59 heh 00:36:25 klutometis: Besides, what else are you going to have to drown out the pain of writing Operating Systems? 00:37:51 klutometis: you either go prophet with a magnetic halo, or you harden your mind to prepare for the inane users. 00:38:28 To be honest I think there is a lot more animosity toward PLT Scheme in this channel than there is to any other Scheme system, or camp of Schemers. 00:39:21 They're just so much fun to pick on. ;-) 00:39:35 incubot: tell riastradh about SCM and Guile 00:39:38 And I tried it out in clisp, and then guile, 00:39:42 Although, you think it's full on animonisty? 00:39:46 Riastradh: somewhere in this neighborhood http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2009-May/032827.html 00:39:46 Their pairs are immutable. It's natural resentment. 00:39:59 arcfide: I think the correct term is "dickbags" 00:40:19 and I agree with Daemmerung 00:40:23 Hah! Dunnobouthat. 00:40:32 Adamant: That's not very nice. 00:40:45 chandler: neither are most OpenBSD devs. 00:41:04 arcfide: there may be some kind of positive covariance there between testosterone, sado-masochism and debauchery 00:41:20 Heh. 00:41:56 We should take a poll, which Scheme do you most loathe? 00:42:56 java 00:43:17 what's with the haterism 00:43:43 mejja, I don't think that's animosity so much as technical issues with their design and engineering. 00:44:38 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 00:44:48 Yeah, but aside from that, wingo is a real... oh hi, wingo! 00:45:03 I feel like Dave Chappelle has dropped out of comedy to get a computer science degree and now I'm trapped in a Language Implementation Player Hater's Ball sketch 00:45:52 next we'll be going back in time to talk shit while Rabbit was being developed 00:46:02 All this talk of animosity makes me thirsty. I think I'll have some ice cream. 00:46:17 Riastradh: Ice cream for thirst? Weird. 00:46:20 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs141012.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:46:23 makes as much sense as anything else 00:46:31 arcfide: it is liquidy 00:46:33 I didn't say that ice cream would quench my thirst. I just decided to have some ice cream! 00:46:42 Anything wrong with having ice cream?? 00:46:52 Riastradh: My bad, no dehydrated space ice cream for me. 00:46:54 If you have ice cream, you'll have to have something to drink with it. 00:48:19 Actually, I could go for some proper desert too. I'm more of a Créme Brulée type, with berries; that and tiramisu. 00:48:26 s/desert/dessert 00:48:59 CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has joined #scheme 00:49:47 Crème brûlée, surely. 00:50:41 Riastradh: Oh, fine: creme brulee; there, happy? 00:51:22 Gosh, this configuration of irssi, screen, Solaris 9, ssh, and rxvt-unicode is not happy with all this non-US-ASCII text. 00:51:47 Riastradh: I wasn't even pulling any Unicode there... 00:52:25 -!- CSdread__ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:47 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 01:02:02 arcfide: i'm sorry, did someone say survey? http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=71tmyDegh9GKkJO2ynlijw_3d_3d 01:02:44 hear ye: please take the least-favorite-scheme survey at you leisure ^^^^^^ 01:05:50 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@209-188-116-183.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:44 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@96.38.8.58] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:07:39 wow: chibi, guile and chez are tied for first 01:07:47 with a wopping N=3 01:08:06 *lol* 01:10:02 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:50 klutometis, you neglected to list my least favourite Scheme! (Also, I had to enable JavaScript to use that.) But I can't tell you what it is, because that would destroy anonymity of the survey. 01:13:38 SIOD 01:13:41 SCM 01:13:57 TI 01:14:00 xscheme 01:14:07 MzScheme 01:14:10 By `TI', do you mean PC-Scheme? 01:14:21 Yeah, I'm senile. 01:14:33 I even used that thing for a while. 01:17:27 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-125-129.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-56.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:19:26 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@95-24-189-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:06 How do you get the running totals klutometis? 01:21:23 I chose tinyscheme, because I had to write a GIMP script once. It burned... 01:22:34 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:22:52 I thought that was SIOD? 01:23:01 SIOD? 01:23:18 Dunno. They replaced their old script-fu scheme with tinyscheme a while back. 01:23:55 That should tell you something about SIOD. 01:24:21 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-129-37.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:40 Nevertheless I cannot loathe something I have not experienced as much as something I have. 01:31:06 you can loath idealized, steretypized, unused, unknown object better. 01:33:45 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:53 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:43:50 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:44:58 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:50:09 elf: ping 01:52:08 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@dhcp-210-105.cs.dartmouth.edu] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:52:38 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:52:56 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #scheme 01:53:59 -!- offby1 is now known as elj 01:54:02 ha, take that. 01:54:18 -!- elj is now known as offby1 01:56:50 leppie [n=lolcow@196.210.200.237] has joined #scheme 01:58:21 Cheap imitations... 02:01:49 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 02:03:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:11 eli: yes? 02:13:30 pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 02:15:50 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 02:17:47 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:25 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 02:27:06 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 02:31:53 anyone notice how srfi-37 ref impl is quite buggy? 02:32:48 *crickets* 02:35:34 i did 02:37:17 klutometis: I like how javascript is required just to see that survey, which I see now Riastradh also noted ;) 02:40:00 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:42:05 xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 02:43:52 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 02:45:34 yeah because HTML forms just can't possibly ever do a survey without the help of javascript. 02:52:01 pumpkin- [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 02:53:44 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176209036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:02:00 -!- klutometis [i=klutomet@pdpc/supporter/active/klutometis] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:04 klutometis [i=klutomet@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 03:09:01 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176222132.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:00 I feel cheated. Took the survey and all I got for my pains was a lousy ad. 03:30:33 I want my click back. 03:36:27 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:36:30 sladegen_ [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:41:33 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:42 pumpkin-_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has joined #scheme 03:47:25 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:47:26 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:49:12 I wanted to at least see the results. 03:49:30 klutometis didn't help there at all. 03:56:59 I voted for "R6RS" 03:57:08 If that helps. 03:58:40 I think I voted for "fluhr" or "flazz" or some made-up syllable 03:59:33 Lemonade? 04:00:04 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4550 04:00:16 Great Caesar's ghost, it's midnight. 04:00:24 ooh, it's TwitterMan 04:00:30 *offby1* gestures that way ^^ 04:00:47 I voted for your mom. 04:01:01 In Soviet Russia, your mom votes for ME. 04:01:11 There, I think we've covered all the normal bases now. 04:01:20 offby1, er, yeah, about that... 04:01:28 *gnomon* scuffs 04:01:35 arcfide [n=arcfide@96.38.8.58] has joined #scheme 04:01:36 power [n=power@host78.net137-20.omkc.ru] has joined #scheme 04:01:58 HAW hAW hAW 04:02:15 *Daemmerung* points and, um, guffaws 04:02:20 -!- power is now known as sergeylilo 04:02:28 *arcfide* looks around. 04:02:41 Bad time to jump in, or was that a trigger waiting for me? 04:02:55 The floor is yours, sir. 04:03:11 *Daemmerung* cedes ungraciously 04:03:16 *gnomon* attends to some wine that ain't gonna drink itself 04:04:12 ok code is coming out now 04:08:42 Hi everybody 04:09:51 I am new to scheme and programming at all. Just a couple of days ago I started to read SICP 04:09:52 Hello. 04:10:01 and want too meet with you 04:10:02 Good way to start. 04:10:48 sergeylilo: $5000 gets you a table next to Riastradh, $500 next to me, and maybe a bot or two. :-) 04:11:31 -!- pumpkin-_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:12:30 $25 gets you a copy of Turbo Pascal and whatever meme I'm currently mindlessly regurgitating. 04:12:57 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 04:15:25 oh 04:15:33 did someone give him his complementary USB-stick-keychain? 04:16:37 The keynote speaker is Oleg and there will be a party-game afterwards to see who can translate his presentation the fastest. 04:17:54 Hey, no fair favoring the Russians like that. 04:18:26 *Daemmerung* raises a point of parliamentary procedure 04:20:10 -!- dudleyf [n=dudleyf@ip70-178-212-238.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [] 04:20:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 04:21:17 -!- pumpkin- [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:53 karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:21:59 *eli* takes latex to a dark corner and shoots it 04:22:15 *eli* grabs tex to the same corner and shoots it too 04:22:31 *eli* beats the two bloodied bodies to pulp 04:22:44 *eli* jumps up and down in the pool of shredded remains 04:22:56 -!- pumpkin [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:57 *eli* pours gasoline on the pile and lights it up 04:22:59 eli, eli, what have you done!? 04:23:15 I'm sorry, but they're gone. 04:23:21 -!- pumpkin_ [n=pumpkin@pat9.border1-cfw.dartmouth.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:22 Re-write the TeX macro system so it uses Scheme semantics. 04:23:40 Well, that's going to put a damper on this paper...and I just got it formatted right, too! 04:23:56 But yeah, TeX sucks. 04:24:04 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@75.68.42.94] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:24:08 *arcfide* rewrites his paper in Groff. 04:24:11 It's times like this that I remember the ridiculousness of offering to pay for whoever finds a bug in tex. 04:24:24 eli: What's so ridiculous about it? 04:24:57 You'd lose all your money? 04:25:02 OK, so it's bug free or close -- but what good does that make, when the bug free code is getting such idiotic results. 04:25:03 Apparently because TeX is a bug. 04:25:16 (And doing so correctly.) 04:25:28 Hah! eli, care to share you frustrations with the class? 04:25:36 *Daemmerung* lamechs his sabachthani with a quickness 04:26:09 arcfide: "! Missing $ inserted." 04:26:10 Are there any proud Debian users in here? 04:26:24 karlw: Hahahahaha! 04:26:43 arcfide: and then it shows me that it inserted a $ 04:26:47 karlw: I once used Debian, a long time ago, when I was a...lesser man. 04:26:50 karlw: I'm proud, and I'm a Debian user; but I don't think the two are related 04:26:53 "l.108 ...ntroduce) (list "Hello, world!$\backslash<<>>$"))")" 04:26:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:27:07 *offby1* backs away slowly 04:27:22 arcfide: Note that it claims to have inserted the $ right before the one that I have there. 04:28:06 *karlw* hacks ubuntu's arms off. 04:28:24 eli: Hrm, um...what did you want it to do? 04:28:34 karlw: Woah, we talking about Ubuntu or Debian here? 04:29:01 arcfide: To clarify, I enter a line: "foo $\backslash$ bar" 04:29:03 Ubuntu 04:29:18 karlw: That's your problem. 04:29:21 arcfide: And latex tells me that there's a missing $ after the `h' 04:29:39 Ubuntu is for 14 year-olds. 04:29:55 eli: Huh, that's...interesting. Is $ a legal character in a macro name? 04:30:21 No, 12 year-olds. I installed Debian when I was 14. 04:30:49 arcfide: No, it's some stupid interaction with the text being in an alltt environment. 04:31:23 latex is a pile of hacks similar to Emacs, except with a much stupider language, and useless error messages. 04:31:24 eli: Is this a LaTeX problem or is this something inherent in TeX? 04:31:44 I'm actually investigating to see if any schemes are apt-get worthy. 04:31:53 arcfide: I have no idea -- alltt and other such verbatim-like environments usually play dirty tricks. 04:31:55 karlw: Huh? 04:31:59 *in debian 04:32:08 eli: e-plain's verbatim has worked perfectly for me. 04:32:27 karlw: Aren't there lot's of Scheme implementations in the repositories already? 04:33:18 I'm trying to decide which to focus on in a semi-professional way. 04:33:22 arcfide: Yeah yeah -- I've had it with plain verbatim up to here. 04:33:42 Huh? 04:33:53 eli: Does Plain TeX have a verbatim? 04:34:10 karlw, if you want something new in the debian repos just ask i'll be happy to package it up 04:34:14 Guys, your hospitality scared sergeylilo away. 04:34:16 I don't even intend to find out what plain tex has. 04:34:26 The place I usually have trouble is when multiple macro packages want to mess with the internal lists and queues or whatever they are. 04:34:45 eii: Oh, so, you're just using LaTeX's verbatim? 04:34:52 Exactly. That's the Emacs efect. 04:35:14 No -- I'm using alltt; a verbatim-like package that still lets you throw commands in. 04:35:22 eli: Yeah, so, now I try to avoid any packages that don't place nice with the internals. So far so good. 04:35:23 :) 04:35:28 So I'm not like ``Well, I'll work on Scheme X because I hate case sensitivity and I want idiosyncratic feature \aleph'' 04:35:44 Oh, that's what you mean, you don't like plain verbatims, and you want to put commands into it, eh? Not much of a verbatim then, is it? 04:36:23 arcfide: It's verbatim in respecting spaces and newlines. 04:37:10 eli: Hehe, good luck to you then. 04:38:47 guys, what version of scheme you use? 04:38:58 dmoerner: No thank you, I'm just sort of squirming around now :-) 04:39:05 sergeylilo: Chez Scheme. 04:39:34 and what about plt-scheme? 04:39:46 sergeylilo: What about it? 04:39:59 what can you say about it :) 04:40:07 my english sucks :( 04:40:19 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:40:25 I can say a lot about it, but I'm not sure whether that would help you. 04:40:35 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:40:49 PLT Scheme sort of has ``everything built in'' 04:40:58 sergeylilo: I use PLT and Gambit. Others use Chicken, MIT (aka MIT/GNU), or yet other impls. 04:40:59 *arcfide* chuckles. 04:41:26 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:33 sergeylilo: Most active and some inactive Schemes have representatives here in some way or another, usually. Some do not talk as much as others, though. ;-) 04:41:33 If you're working through SICP, MIT is a good choice. This isn't a marriage. 04:42:11 I feel myself like linux newbie, who asks "what distro is better" 8) 04:42:15 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 04:42:33 You're more self-aware than most of those newbies.... 04:42:57 For SICP, anything that's post-R4RS ought to work. 04:43:07 sergeylilo: The same answer is usually given: you should try out a few, get comfortable with the basics, and then play around until you feel comfortable. 04:43:18 Note ``ought to'' 04:43:42 Why post R4? No dynamic-wind or define-syntax in SICP IIRC. 04:44:04 Well, then post R3 04:44:05 If you are going through SICP, MIT Scheme isn't a bad choice. Most of the Schemes will work. Petite Chez is fairly simple to use, and if you read the documentation, PLT Scheme can be used effectively with SICP as well. 04:44:28 I think that SICP ed. 2 uses IEEE semantics, so it requires '() != #f, IIRC. 04:44:56 At UC Berkeley we used a modified version of STk, which isn 04:45:00 Was R4 agnostic on that point? 04:45:13 Daemmerung: I thought R4 was the first one to make the distinction. 04:45:20 't the nicest implementation 04:45:47 We haven't asked which edition of SICP the querent is using. 04:46:07 If you're curious, check out inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~scheme 04:46:10 Daemmerung: I really really hope sergeylilo is using the second edition. 04:46:32 Heh. The first edition is idiosyncratic, from our perspective. 04:47:06 karlw: STk was supah fresh ten years ago.... 04:47:49 The first edition was probably ghost-written by Stallman 04:47:57 thanks for answers 04:48:22 Good luck, sergeylilo. Sorry for all the noise-- it's endemic to this channel. 04:48:29 I like chicken also. 04:48:41 Yep, we're talkers. 04:49:59 after reading linux.org.ru nothing noise can afraid me ;) 04:50:34 God be praised. 04:50:37 sergeylilo: Try the OpenBSD CVS Commit mailing lists. 04:50:38 :-) 04:51:52 lol 04:52:19 :) 04:53:19 one more question: 04:53:35 Go ahead 04:53:40 No, you can't have that one, sergeylilo. It's mine. 04:53:41 MINE 04:53:44 My preciousssssss 04:53:54 I heard MIT want to rewrite sicp with python 04:54:11 sergeylilo: They are changing their approach, not just rewriting. 04:54:34 (in the parlance of our times) 04:54:35 sergeylilo: I should say, they have changed, to my understanding. 04:54:43 Just ignore that, Hal Abelson was possessed by NSA mind probes. 04:55:32 There's no more hope for MIT :) 04:55:40 ) 04:57:29 Wow... why hate on chibi? It's just a toy :/ 04:58:16 Just use whichever programming language makes you happy. If you can work through SICP then you'll end up being a good programmer. 04:58:23 I can't see the results of the poll. 04:58:45 I can see the results of the poll, but I am sworn to secrecy. 04:58:47 Nor I... are they trying to get people to pay just to see the results? 04:59:24 sergeylilo: If you really like math, I 04:59:39 foof: dude, you're in good company. My useless toy Scheme didn't get no hate. 05:00:14 'd recommend looking at Haskell when you're done with SICP. 05:00:29 *arcfide* gets the stake and tinder ready for karlw. 05:00:41 Anyone got some hemp rope and a good torch? 05:00:45 *Daemmerung* locates his rustiest pitchfork 05:01:15 I gots me a nice bucket o' tar here. 05:01:16 *arcfide* examines Daemmerung pitchfork for appropriate rustiness. 05:01:25 Nice, I have some feathers from the last time... 05:02:21 I love heretics. They burn ever so beautifully. 05:02:33 Lambda calculus is the most advanced operating system in the universe. 05:02:56 ikaros [n=ikaros@f051176090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:03:03 karlw: You can't save yourself now! You're on public record with heresy and blasphemy! 05:03:38 Duuuh, I got a log of it right here. 05:03:51 You can use monads in Scheme. 05:04:14 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/scheme/09.06.04 05:04:42 Duuuh, this pitchfork not rusty enough. Me find pool of pig manure, be back soon. 05:05:34 *karlw* goes to advocate NEdit on #emacs 05:07:02 How hardware-dependent is PLT? 05:08:21 hard to say 05:08:53 need a comparsion 05:10:28 In other words, will PLT build on m68k NetBSD without modification? 05:11:38 seems no :) 05:11:43 karlw, this might help. http://www.buildd.net/cgi/package_status?unstable_pkg=plt-scheme&searchtype=all. in debian at least m68k is one of the few blacklisted arches 05:11:46 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/q2utv6 05:12:39 karlw: you'll need a PLT built without the JITter. 05:12:58 The jitter works only on Intel and PowerPC. 05:13:54 At least Scheme is more portable than Java :-) 05:14:00 has netbsd smth like ports? 05:15:05 and doesn't ports includes scheme interpreter? 05:16:38 I'm just using NetBSD as an example. 05:16:50 sergeylilo: Scheme is kind of like Christianity or Buddhism, broken into a myriad of diverse sects. It's not as simple as gcc. 05:17:06 There's no need to disable the jit in building PLT -- it should disable it itself 05:17:28 Ha. I was just about to slander you to see if you'd come correct me. 05:17:43 ThereYouGoThen. 05:17:53 "PLT will work if you build it with the --rapes-puppies=YES option." 05:18:27 It may make more sense to say ``VMS with POSIX compatibility layer running on alpha 05:18:30 '' 05:18:56 Daemmerung, gcc is not so simple :) 05:19:03 Or some other insanely obscure set up. 05:19:05 Heh. 05:19:26 >broken into a myriad of diverse sects 05:19:52 for this peoples use Makefiles, if I right understand you 05:20:15 Last time I saw a VAX it was used as a doorstop. 05:20:27 *Daemmerung* weeps 05:20:53 If there is any packet/port manager in OS, you should use it, right :) 05:21:02 I guess the question is: Is there a Scheme incremental compiler that my 15 year-old brother can apt-get onto his Nintendo DS? 05:22:23 If the goal is to make him learn how to program, then not-running-on-nintendo-ds is a feature. 05:22:45 eli: Do you know if there are any papers written about PLaneT? 05:24:05 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 05:25:30 eli: Replace ``my 15 year-old brother'' with ``an arbitrary person'' or ``the reader'' 05:26:03 karlw: Same answer. 05:26:14 arcfide: I thought there was, but I don't see any. 05:26:24 eli: It appears there's a technical report. 05:26:39 arcfide: You can email Robby or Jacob and ask. 05:26:59 Why an incremental compiler? 05:27:14 I' 05:27:29 ve seen gsi builds reported for the DS. 05:28:34 *karlw* starts up Scheme on his cell phone. 05:28:58 arcfide: http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/ 05:29:20 eli: Thanks. 05:29:23 if debian (with apt-get you mean debian?) exists for Nintendo DS, why not? 05:29:51 You know, someone should complain about Chicken Scheme's domain name. 05:30:01 Nintendo DS is arm, I think. 05:30:04 *Daemmerung* bids "adieu" to karlw's battery. 05:30:13 morning 05:30:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 05:30:16 :) 05:30:40 mmmm karlw 05:30:49 there is umb scheme wich builds anywhere 05:31:08 but is not as good as plt, chicken or most of the others 05:31:15 pumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:31:20 i use it on a GP2X handheld 05:31:30 Ah, umb -- another one to add to that survey. 05:31:52 i don't think is that good 05:32:01 but it is simple and compiles anywhere 05:33:15 Does it build on Syllable? 05:33:17 Does anyone know if a similiar report or paper exists for the Eggs system of Chicken Scheme? 05:33:42 *cel* does not know what Syllable is 05:34:21 It's a derivative of AmigaOS. 05:34:41 ah it should 05:34:50 sxm is also very portable 05:34:51 http://www.malgil.com/sxm/ 05:35:13 is based on xscheme but without the object system and a lot of SRFIs and Chez packages added 05:35:47 can't plt run on those Oses? 05:36:11 *cel* is enjoying the mzscheme journey for project euler 05:37:02 Let 05:37:48 the wild rumpus commence! 05:38:01 Let's see, compiling gsc and ikarus on my Syllable VM. 05:38:14 Mwa ha ha ha 05:38:42 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:40:00 by the way it would be nice to have an Scheme in the GP2X to program games for it 05:40:07 with any graphics library 05:40:51 What about a Scheme interface to the Commodore 64 graphics engine? 05:41:24 it would have a "geek factor", but not really useful 05:41:26 :) 05:41:28 Daemmerung: I forgot to ask you ~2 days ago -- 05:41:55 Daemmerung: Does Gambit have some commonly used "here-string" thing, and/or some form of string interpolation? 05:42:09 ah, eli i used that file you sent me in the work, worked great, thanks again :) 05:42:12 Or a Scheme library for generating Gameboy roms from Scheme code. 05:42:38 cel: The tgz thing? 05:42:45 yes 05:43:11 (karlw : "Commodore 64 graphics engine" ? do you mean the VIC chip ?) 05:43:14 cel: Did you do the usb stick thing? 05:43:57 Then you could write Paradroid in Scheme, process it to a Gameboy rom image, get a few parts from an electronics store... 05:44:20 eli: yes, i have it on a usb and use the same copy at home and at work, except for the code i write, wich i use a svn in google code 05:45:05 so far it's been a good way to share the development environment :) 05:45:26 eli: #< cel: some svn servers support mounting, which can make it even nicer 05:45:56 foof: That's in Gambit or Chicken? 05:46:00 Gambit. 05:46:18 And what about interpolation? 05:46:35 Although the Chicken syntax is identical. 05:46:50 I don't believe it has interpolation. 05:47:03 The only Scheme I know of that has interpolation is Gauche. 05:47:07 And does Chicken have it in some form? 05:47:24 There's probably an egg somewhere for interpolation... 05:47:24 mmm what's interpolation? 05:47:45 you mean something like evaluating code inside a string? 05:47:49 yeah 05:47:52 jscheme has it 05:48:01 or some strange form of it 05:48:01 Or, better yet, use Scheme to design your own embedded device. 05:49:19 i like the plt printf though 05:49:34 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:49:40 foof: thanks, I saw the gauche page now. 05:49:48 *karlw* decides to go on #uber-geeks 05:50:00 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:51:20 ikaros_ [n=ikaros@e179085204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:51:23 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@f051176090.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:19 Isn't interpolation the same as reading from a string port and evaluating the read data? 05:55:23 -!- ikaros_ [n=ikaros@e179085204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:32 ikaros_ [n=ikaros@g227072163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:56:06 eli: No, but Gambit has readtables, with which one could presumably hack such. 05:56:49 *Daemmerung* notices foof's offering, is surprised 05:57:48 ...here-strings, yeah, those. 05:58:21 Daemmerung: Yes, I knew that it can be extended -- I was wondering whether there's some popular extension that is used. 05:59:00 I didn't know that Gambit supported #<<. Me learn something new today. 05:59:02 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["off"] 05:59:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:43 what does #<< do? 06:06:28 cel: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit-c.html#String-syntax (it's hard to describe in a line=at=a=time irc channel) 06:07:25 *cel* reads there 06:07:37 smells like perl 06:08:31 -!- karlw [n=karl@adsl-99-157-202-142.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:08:41 i guess escape syntax is treated literally inside that block? 06:08:57 only because perl smells like bash. 06:09:53 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:11:19 i don't really like that thing 06:11:41 hopefully it is of some use but i can't really think of anything to do with it 06:14:09 cel: It's not that useful anyway, it just happens to be a common hack. 06:14:50 I'm not a fan. It is useful because recent Schemes (i am looking at YOU r6) have gone all C like in their escape sequences. ugh. 06:16:20 (Gambit has supported that \xxx whatever abomination for a long time. Whatever. It is a "recent" win.) 06:16:23 i like the way printf handles it 06:16:44 i suposse there is something like (format "text ~a..." (things)) 06:16:54 printf doesn't handle anything. that's part of C's lexical syntax. 06:16:54 i think is clear and easy 06:17:21 Daemmerung: Additional C-like escape sequences are not a reason to use here-strings; and they can't be a fault of R6RS because in R5RS you only get backslash with itself or a double quote so C-like escapes are only an extension. 06:17:53 i do not really mean printing, but i like the format without cluttering the string 06:18:15 eli: Here-strings are more useful that double quote some newslines another doublequote only because of that escaping mess. 06:19:12 ah, you mean escaping things like double quotes or characters instead of expressions? 06:19:52 the \char is a mess 06:20:01 Me not type pretty this evening. Let me try again: Here-strings are more useful tha/n/ doublequote, some newlines, another doublequote, only b/c of that escaping. 06:20:44 "this is 06:20:47 the symphony 06:20:57 that Schubert wrote, but never finished" 06:21:11 Daemmerung: I'm confused... what escaping mess? \ escapes have been in every Scheme standard. Are you complaining about the new extensions like \n that never could've been used before anyway? 06:21:23 Daemmerung: Huh? How do C-like escapes motivate here strings? 06:21:38 Daemmerung: What foof said. 06:21:52 foof: backslash escapes are new in R6 06:22:17 Daemmerung: No -- backslash is also an escape in R5RS. 06:22:26 Only there it's defined only for \" and \\. 06:22:29 eli: only for \". 06:22:43 No, R5RS supports \\ and \" - it _has_ to, otherwise there is no way you could write a string literal containing ". 06:23:06 Right. But it doesn't support \r, \n, \h, \t, \b, .... 06:23:21 Daemmerung: Yes, but that doesn't motivate here strings. 06:23:26 eli: No? 06:23:28 No. 06:23:39 Elucidate, please. 06:23:53 I don't know how... 06:24:18 IMO, Scheme string literal syntax obviates here-stringery. 06:24:40 I mean R5 string literal syntax, in the absence of C/Gambit/whatever backslashery. 06:24:54 --> " * " 06:24:56 --> | \" | \\ 06:25:22 Thus, in previous Scheme standards \n, etc. were illegal. 06:25:34 So it's a completely backwards-compatible extension. 06:25:37 *Daemmerung* nods, makes handwaving gesture 06:25:45 Daemmerung: But the issue is the same -- you use here strings if you want to avoid backslashing " and \ -- and this fact is true regardless of R5RS or R6RS. 06:26:08 Daemmerung: If you don't have backslashes or double quotes, then a literal string works in both. 06:26:18 *** SPOuSAL INTERRUPT *** 06:26:28 *eli* pretends to be working. 06:27:58 *synx* heads off to that pretend 9-to-5, ready to hit the pretend ground pretend running. 06:35:21 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 06:44:15 sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:05:00 ASau [n=user@host101-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:06:10 Finally, I can go to bed. 07:06:12 Goodnight! 07:08:23 bye 07:09:02 -!- wingo [n=wingo@130.Red-79-151-125.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:11:19 barney [n=bernhard@p549A0233.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 07:14:04 Happy pi o'clock! 07:14:09 (EDT) 07:18:32 can anyone explain me this: (- 5.55 5) 07:18:40 returns 0.5499999999999998 07:20:18 in plt 07:20:30 sergeylilo: 5.55 is an inexact number. 07:20:31 If you want exact arithmetic, use exact inputs: (- #e5.55 5) 07:20:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 07:21:10 Or (- (/ 555 100) 5) 07:21:32 -!- xwl_ [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:40 xwl_` [n=user@147.243.236.60] has joined #scheme 07:21:58 integers are exact by default, unless you use the syntax 555.0 for instance. 07:23:32 plt doesn't do full blown symbolic arithemetic though, so things like irrational numbers can't usually be deferred in a calculation. 07:24:30 The vast majority of irrational numbers admit no finite symbolic representation, of course, even in a system that does symbolic arithmetic. 07:24:36 ok. thank you 07:25:01 Sure they do Riastradh. "(sqrt 2)" for instance. 07:25:18 It just depends what you allow as symbols. 07:26:01 sqrt might be the wrong procedure name... 07:26:06 No, synx. 07:26:09 synx: no 07:26:20 Only a small minority of irrational numbers admit such finite symbolic representations. 07:26:40 But like (/ (sqrt 2) (sqrt 2)) plt can't intelligently realize that the numerator and denominator will always be exactly the same, so it must convert them to inexact to get a decimal representation, then divide them to get an inexact 1.0 07:27:04 Specifically, only countably many of them do. This is because there are only countably many finite symbolic representations. However, there are uncountably many irrational numbers. 07:27:11 One could argue that any irrational number admits such representation. Just not all at once. 07:27:29 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:27:38 Well even numbers like pi can be represented via Taylor series or in terms of sine and cosine. I haven't ever dealt with an irrational number that could not be calculated somehow, and therefore represented by the calculation itself. 07:28:30 Naturally when I speak pointwise about representations, I am abusing English grammar to make statements about the entireties of sets and maps. 07:29:00 synx, you can enumerate all the irrational numbers you want as such. There will still be uncountably many that you will not have mentioned. 07:29:20 All I'm saying is plt can't defer the evaluation of expressions and cancel out ones that cancel out. Maybe the lazy language could somehow... I dunno. 07:29:28 indra1 [n=subhan@122.181.4.194] has joined #scheme 07:29:29 synx: take chaitlin's constant as a typical example 07:29:35 Riastradh: Yes, but I don't care about those other numbers. I never use them. 07:29:56 what is the reminder operator in scheme 07:30:07 (% 4 2) is not working 07:30:18 Reminder? Gosh, I didn't know that Scheme would remind me of things I need to do. I'd like to know this too. 07:30:39 Halting probability, huh... 07:30:39 remider operator 07:30:51 Remider? I don't know what remiding is... 07:30:58 indra1: remainder? :) mod? 07:31:08 (% 4 2) 07:31:21 rudybot: eval (begin (sleep 3600) (display "Reminder for Riastradh: time for tea\n")) 07:31:21 synx: your sandbox is ready 07:31:24 synx: error: with-limit: out of time 07:31:30 -!- raikov [i=cbb5f30b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e7aecc14e9a5e67c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:31:38 There are two operations to compute remai*n*ders, one of which is totally counter-intuitively called `remainder'. 07:31:43 r5rs remainder 07:31:43 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_290 07:31:45 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/2bvclp 07:31:49 hehe aww 07:32:05 The other is called `modulo', and they differ only on negative arguments. 07:32:16 -!- ikaros_ [n=ikaros@g227072163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 07:32:25 -!- indra1 [n=subhan@122.181.4.194] has left #scheme 07:32:29 Mastoco [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 07:32:40 I guess he got what he was after 07:32:41 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-56-85.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:32:41 well that was anti-climactic 07:32:52 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:33:07 *synx* turns away and curls up by the fire 07:33:10 Anyway, I'm going back to bed. 07:37:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 07:38:28 Guest72074 [n=m@p54A1D408.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:46:57 -!- cel [n=cel@45.Red-83-40-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 07:50:42 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:52:14 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 08:03:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-2-221.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit ["..."] 08:10:14 -!- davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:12:09 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 08:13:21 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:22:22 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:24:17 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 08:27:30 naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.98] has joined #scheme 08:29:20 elderk [n=zk@122-57-254-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 08:29:29 -!- elderk [n=zk@122-57-254-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:58 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:35:45 david00 [n=david@lan.proporta.com] has joined #scheme 08:36:41 rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-168-22.51-151.net24.it] has joined #scheme 08:37:15 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:16 what's the best way to do a sitewide install of a planet package? 08:37:32 I can think of 2 ways: 08:37:48 on linux, btw 08:37:49 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:38:05 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:38:08 1. install files directly into prefix/lib/plt/collects 08:38:41 2. define PLTCOLLECTS in /etc/profile or similar to include some site packages directory 08:40:00 I'd kind of expect the planet command-line tool to include something to do this, though... 08:40:31 but it doesn't seem to 08:52:12 The problem with method 2 is that the documentation says that the value of PLTCOLLECTS will be 'combined' with the default collection path, but it seems to just replace it totally... 08:53:29 Meaning that if you want to just add a 'site' path to the existing paths, you'd have to also include the user-specific search path that is normally automatically constructed by mzscheme's initialization 08:53:52 -!- naunsins [i=charles_@120.138.100.98] has left #scheme 08:54:13 & also includes the PLT version string, which is turning into a nasty mess of shell hacks... 08:54:52 (I don't mean the PLT version string is turning into a nasty mess of shell hacks, but that using the PLTCOLLECTS method would be.) ;) 08:56:38 david00: planet cannot not do that now. In might in the future. 08:56:58 And re your PLTCOLLECTS problem -- did you read the documentation? 08:57:02 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/collects.html#(idx._(gentag._398._(lib._scribblings/reference/reference..scrbl))) 08:57:11 Specifically, note the `:' in the value. 08:58:31 ah OK 08:58:32 sorry 08:58:49 makes sense now :) 08:59:03 thanks eli 09:05:52 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 09:08:28 -!- xomas [n=kooky@unaffiliated/xomas] has quit [] 09:09:00 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 09:09:56 davidad [n=me@dhcp-18-111-6-158.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 09:11:08 xomas [n=kooky@41.196.51.7] has joined #scheme 09:11:32 -!- xomas [n=kooky@41.196.51.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:12:11 xomas [n=kooky@unaffiliated/xomas] has joined #scheme 09:13:30 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 09:14:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 09:14:48 mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 09:14:50 drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:15:43 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 09:19:33 Mastoco` [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 09:22:15 -!- sergeylilo [n=power@host78.net137-20.omkc.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:46 -!- xwl_` [n=user@147.243.236.60] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:37:57 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 09:38:45 -!- rjack [n=rjack@adsl-ull-168-22.51-151.net24.it] has quit ["leaving"] 09:39:10 -!- Mastoco [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:42:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:44:18 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:22 -!- glogic [n=glogic@5ess.net] has quit [brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:44:24 glogic_ [n=glogic@5ess.net] has joined #scheme 09:44:25 p1dzkl [n=p1dzkl@1505ds1-str.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 09:44:30 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 09:44:35 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 09:50:52 ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has joined #scheme 09:58:58 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:10 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 10:31:45 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 10:39:08 kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@178-213-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 10:39:40 what is analogue of function "DOLIST" from Lisp in Scheme 10:39:44 ? 10:43:57 r5rs do 10:43:57 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_138 10:43:59 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/qfdonj 10:44:38 that's the closest you can get in r5rs 10:46:19 for-each? 10:51:01 LunohoD_ [n=alex@e180072251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:51:08 what is r5rs? 10:52:37 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:53:09 -!- Mastoco` [n=user@a88-115-8-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:53:19 -!- david00 [n=david@lan.proporta.com] has left #scheme 10:53:52 kanmahotell: a standard for Scheme 10:54:10 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-161.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:43 nan8 [n=user@88.64.155.158] has joined #scheme 10:58:40 Are there othere standarts? 10:59:02 *kanmahotell* slaps hkBst around a bit with a large trout 11:00:49 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:01:18 rudybot: eval (for ([i '(1 2 3)]) (printf "i = ~s\n" i)) 11:01:19 eli: your sandbox is ready 11:01:19 eli: ; stdout: "i = 1\ni = 2\ni = 3\n" 11:04:24 HG` [n=wells@xdslhe157.osnanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:04:34 kanmahotell: yes, there are many and the relevant ones are r5rs, r6rs and maybe err5rs. And then there is the documentation for your chosen Scheme(s). 11:05:48 many? 11:07:01 -!- LunohoD [n=alex@e180076151.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:01 -!- LunohoD_ is now known as LunohoD 11:07:06 3 is already many. 11:08:50 I thought 'many' was more than you can count with your fingers -- for the prehistoric humans at least; seems there haven't been much progress in this repect, :) 11:11:20 stepnem: here http://www.faqs.org/faqs/scheme-faq/part1/section-5.html two more for you and 4 more implied. 11:11:25 that's 9 then 11:13:17 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A0233.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:28 cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 11:16:24 If you're coming from Common Lisp, a good advice is to greatly reduce your expectations from "a standard" -- both the hope of having one, and the treating it as something practical. 11:19:15 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit 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Out of curiosity I briefly looked into building Google Chrome, now that it claims to have preliminary support for Mac OS X. Then I saw, from , `If you want to build it, you will need just under 10 GB of space, including all the object files and executables.' 14:15:30 wow 14:16:18 I guess it's pretty naive of me to think that a web browser is just an annoying piece of software to do some network I/O, process HTML, sometimes execute JavaScript, and display a fancy gooey. 14:16:34 uh 14:16:55 adaszko [n=adaszko@chello089078104135.chello.pl] has joined #scheme 14:17:57 -!- adaszko [n=adaszko@chello089078104135.chello.pl] has left #scheme 14:18:24 what's 10GB between half terabyte disks... 14:18:36 10 GB here, 10 GB there, pretty soon you're talking real space. 14:18:55 That's one eighth of my disk. 14:20:33 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 14:20:41 That's also about thirteen human genomes. But it seems to me that there's a lot more to running a human than there is to browsing the web... 14:20:46 i know, i was being synikal, i keep oscillating between 20-40 GB free with not more than 5-10GB empty "block". 14:21:22 (Of course, that's not really a fair comparison; if I count just the source it's only about two human genomes.) 14:21:33 no matter the N the annoying part is that N is constant. 14:25:39 nijh2s [n=ngxy@p6130-ipbfp1601fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:25:54 modern OS should come with automated GC for permament storage with option to offload stuff to other media... anyway. 14:28:07 But if it's that big, how do they create the 30MB executable? 14:28:08 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:28:16 solaris is dead, long live zfs and happy crowds who'll actully get to use its properties well implemented. 14:30:46 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:55 10GB to build Chrome? Man, 64MB ought to be enough for everybody! 14:32:40 DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!!! 14:33:06 incubot: that would be bad. 14:33:09 - we would be obliged if you would write a Chicken egg for it. 14:33:31 Wow, how did incubot know? 14:35:48 -!- nijh2s [n=ngxy@p6130-ipbfp1601fukuokachu.fukuoka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Riece/4.0.0 Emacs/22.1 (gnu/linux)"] 14:40:45 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:41:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:00:18 -!- jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:00:48 -!- ASau [n=user@host101-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["off"] 15:01:01 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-134-212.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:02:28 mngbd [n=user@81.3.214.196] has joined #scheme 15:04:46 i ran over some benchmarks from the gambit guys: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/bench.html 15:04:53 is gambit really *that* fast? 15:05:07 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has joined #scheme 15:07:59 mngbd: gambit and bigloo are both fast 15:09:12 mngbd: and those benchmarks use very old versions of the Schemes 15:09:43 yes, i have just spotted that 15:11:06 do you know some trustworthy benchmarks from recent versions? 15:12:46 clinger's are more recent 15:15:10 thanks. anyway now i think i will run some tests for my own here. 15:19:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:53 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.195.196] has joined #scheme 15:25:59 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 15:28:28 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Client Quit] 15:30:41 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:59 soupdragon [n=enso@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:32:40 rdd [n=user@c83-250-157-93.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 15:33:34 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:34:49 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@63.251.108.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:13 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:36:28 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:14 -!- jao [n=jao@55.Red-83-39-132.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:49 -!- soupdragon [n=enso@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:41:10 e__ [n=enso@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:41:38 -!- e__ [n=enso@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:42:09 -!- LunohoD [n=alex@e180072251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:43:18 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 15:46:34 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 15:48:08 soupdragon [n=f@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:50:35 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:59:51 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 16:00:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.1.19/2008110600]"] 16:02:00 chicken-install isn't working :/ 16:02:10 it looks like the webserver is down or changed or something 16:03:40 soupdragon: using version 3? 16:04:14 no, 4.0.0 16:05:30 Oooh 16:05:33 What error do you get? 16:05:39 *alaricsp* runs one of the involved webservers 16:06:00 CSdread_ [n=danielf@c-68-35-129-24.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:03 http://chicken.kitten-technologies.co.uk/henrietta.cgi?name=defstruct (my canonical test URL) works OK 16:06:14 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.134] has joined #scheme 16:06:17 http://www.pasteit4me.com/1014 16:06:50 I see 16:06:57 It thinks it's not got riaxpander 16:07:00 is it bad doctor? :( 16:07:03 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.134] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:07:06 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.134] has joined #scheme 16:07:08 My first thought is: does it have riaxpander? I'll look in SVN... 16:07:11 btw objc didn't work, so I tried riaxpander 16:07:22 I don't think riaxpander makes sense in Chicken 4. 16:07:34 is riaxpander not the best thing to use then? 16:07:40 I just wanted to use syntax-rules and objc 16:07:53 You don't need to install anything extra to use SYNTAX-RULES in Chicken 4, as far as I know. 16:07:58 chicke 4.0 has syntax-rules built in. 16:08:01 oh that's great! 16:08:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-7-82.vodafone.hu] has joined #scheme 16:08:24 the bad news is I have to port objc to 4.0? 16:08:42 It would appear so 16:08:46 probobly 16:08:49 http://chicken.wiki.br/chicken-projects/egg-index-4.html lists what's been ported to 4 16:08:57 4 is quite new, so eggs are being pulled up as we speak 16:09:04 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:09:12 Ask in #chicken and the chicken-users list to see if anyone's already on the case 16:09:42 ok 16:09:43 I have some porting-to-4 ahead of me to get the many dependencies of Ugarit there! 16:09:58 But objc isn't in my list, I'm afraid ;-) 16:10:03 maybe this is a bad idea ... 16:10:41 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:20:40 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 16:22:00 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw261071.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:18 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.195.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:18 cel [n=cel@45.Red-83-40-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:37:50 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-203.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is insufficiently advanced."] 16:38:09 -!- kanmahotell [i=kanmahot@178-213-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [] 16:38:33 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 16:39:58 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 16:44:18 rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 16:50:25 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:16 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 16:55:11 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 17:00:38 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:03:38 -!- mngbd [n=user@81.3.214.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:41 mmm do you guys know if there are more websites with programming riddles like "project euler" or "99 lisp problems" ? 17:09:56 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:19:55 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 17:21:53 nan8` [n=user@dslb-088-064-155-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:56 -!- automejja [n=edwin@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:07 cel: SICP 17:29:55 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:33:57 chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.65.155] has joined #scheme 17:34:08 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@123.16.65.155] has left #scheme 17:34:15 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:36:16 incubot: simple exercise: uninstall everything but glibc/shell/kernel and try to recreate previous functionality of your OS ;) 17:36:19 12:04:17 How can I uninstall scheme48? There does not seem to be an uninstall target? 12:04:41 The joys of unmanaged software. 12:04:59 rm -rf /usr/local/bin/scheme48 /usr/local/lib/scheme48 12:05:11 There might also be a scheme48.1 (manpage) and scheme48.h somewhere. 12:05:16 But they won't affect anything. 17:36:29 -!- nan8 [n=user@88.64.155.158] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:37:23 incubot: diarrhea? 17:37:26 There are different types of crap. Scheme is a dried cow patty. Apple is dog poo. M$ is Rhino diarrhea. 17:38:00 *sladegen* feeds the fire with scheme. 17:38:31 Hmm 17:38:44 I like the idea of UNSAFE! in PLT Scheme 17:39:57 npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:40:01 -!- nan8` [n=user@dslb-088-064-155-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:42:00 incubot: source 17:42:03 That's just not how I think about source editing :-) 17:42:11 *mbishop* punches incubot 17:44:23 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:44:48 Wow, that is a very distant quote there, by me. 17:51:08 incubot: hate 17:51:11 or HATE 17:52:35 incubot: gauche 17:52:38 yeah, I'm taking a look at Gauche right now 17:52:40 In time, all of our utterings and burps will be recycled by incubot. 17:53:12 incubot: Do you remember anything I've said? 17:53:12 incubot: Recycle yourself. 17:53:15 Hmm, neat, just read an email by "David McClain", I remember that name from a while back where he proved some stuff about ML being on par with C/C++ speeds...apparently he uses Scheme now in his company 17:53:18 Aggressively recycle pairs? 17:53:21 incubot: incubot? 17:57:17 incubot: minion 17:57:20 tell LunarCrisis about paredit 17:58:37 incubot: sarahbot 17:58:40 where are s48debs? 17:59:34 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:01:40 -!- amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:03 mbishop: It's too bad that sorbet has passed on. 18:02:12 indeed 18:02:27 incubot: clhs 18:02:30 clhs dribble 18:02:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm 18:02:34 heh 18:03:44 *eli* can't figure out if mbishop said a compliment, or if that was sarcasm... 18:03:57 eli: nope, that was a compliment 18:04:06 *gnomon* misses srbt 18:04:10 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05666F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:04:28 *mbishop* likes Modula-3, where the use of UNSAFE in modules originated 18:04:35 at least, I believe that's where it originated 18:04:36 mbishop: I'm surprised then. I think that most people just copy it blindly. 18:05:13 -!- HG` [n=wells@xdslhe157.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:05:18 mbishop: No -- I made it up -- at least I was not aware of that keyword used in modula-3... 18:05:33 eli: it's used in modula-3, as well as C# 18:05:51 well in C# it's used on blocks of code, rather than entire modules 18:05:54 but the idea is the same 18:05:54 -!- npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 18:05:56 jao [n=jao@64.Red-83-46-44.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:06:06 I originally wanted to make it something like: (declare: By writing this form I acknowledge that I might be responsible for such disasters as segfaults and so on.) 18:06:52 Then I settled for a plain `unsafe!', and I keep telling people that the `!' in that has the same meaning it has in human texts -- no relation to mutation... 18:08:17 mejja [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:08:36 well, seems clear enough to me, I just happened to see it and understood what it meant, but like I said, I like Modula-3, so I guess I'm biased 18:08:45 unsafe?!? could mean "think before you do it, think" 18:09:51 sladegen: Well, at the point where you wrote it, your code is already unsafe -- ! 18:10:02 mejja_ [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:10:04 http://chrisdone.com/haskell/unsafe.txt 18:10:20 -!- mejja_ [n=user@c-87bae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #scheme 18:10:31 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@apn-94-44-7-82.vodafone.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:10:49 -!- glogic_ is now known as glogic 18:14:05 Haskell is like that nice religious family next door that always dress in white, give up their seats on the bus for old people, donate money for charity, and every once in a while gather in the basement to skin 5 small kittens and eat their beating hearts while having sex with each other. 18:15:07 *mejja* thinks he prefer the mid-west over the middle-east 18:15:20 incubot, haskell? 18:15:23 just has automatic currying is all 18:15:38 eli, that was, uh. Educational. 18:16:19 yeah, those kitten hearts aren't as good as they claimed 18:16:25 gnomon: I teach courses in a university, so I must be right. 18:18:42 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:18:52 eli: what is Scheme like? 18:19:13 Reasonable. 18:19:13 Elbow macaroni. 18:19:24 I prefer my answer. 18:19:42 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:05 We're not afraid to do our barbecue outside -- eating meat is perfectly natural. 18:20:48 That doesn't mean that we like the C/C++/etc crowd that eat nothing but raw meat all day -- but what's the point pretending that we can survive on lettuce alone. 18:20:55 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 18:21:50 And you've got to respect the Forth crowd - living out in the desert like that, surviving on insects and condensed moisture - but you probably wouldn't like to have them over for a dinner party. 18:22:42 I suppose Python is the college graduate content with pizza and beer. Nothing wrong with that, but you can only live like that for so long 18:22:47 Why not? They'd eat the insects that would otherwise just buzz around trying to die a sugary death in your pop can. 18:23:22 chandler, perhaps, but they would frighten the bejebus out of your grandmother. 18:23:42 I'm sorry, but I don't invite Fortran programmers to *my* parties. 18:24:02 Dinner parties, hah! You never call, you never write... 18:25:14 I guess awk programmers would be the ones sitting on a curb in the parking lot eating a Happy Meal(tm) - right next to the sed programmers, who are only eating the Happy Meal(tm) fries, and slurping right out of the ketchup packets. 18:25:18 So, the .org zone has been signed, and the ICANN and the NIST have agreed to sign the root zone. Now how do I incant `dig' so that it requests signed resource records and tells me whether it succeeded in verifying them? Or are these announcements all just political babble to congratulate the parties involved for having come to an agreement? 18:25:26 nan8 [n=user@dslb-088-064-155-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:44 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-121-9.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:50 Riastradh, oh, don't be silly. That's user-space nonsense. They don't concern themselves with that. 18:26:50 I'd be happy even with something absurd like the `openssl smime' incantation to verify the signature on an S/MIME message against a particular certificate, which requires the amazingly intuitive pair of options `-verify -noverify'. 18:26:54 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:26:59 more to the point, the way gethostbyname() is designed, you don't get a chance to concern yourself with it! 18:27:14 gethostbyname? Gosh, what's that? What century are we in? 18:27:35 *gnomon* suppresses a giggle 18:27:52 The one where 95% of the applications I use sieze up the minute they need to talk to the internet, while they resolve a name? 18:28:29 Yeah, I must admit that I liked that clever part of its design. I'm glad it got carried over into this century with getaddrinfo. 18:30:42 Complaining about unintuitive openssl command line options is like drinking fish in a barrel. It's easy, but even just thinking about it will leave a bad taste in your mouth. 18:31:53 incubot: How do you drink fish from a barrel? 18:31:56 but I want a swishy tailed fish 18:32:27 Not *from*, *in*. 18:33:21 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@96.38.8.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:27 (The word is `seize', by the way: `i' before `e' except after `c' and when sounding like `a' as in `neighbour' and `weigh' and in weird words such as weird, being, seeing, seize, foreign, fancier, financier, conscience, society, glacier, proficient, science, ancient, species, albeit, efficient, atheist, concierge, deficient, omniscient, Cuneiform, agreeing, simultaneity, apartheid, caffeine, araneid...) 18:33:59 You forgot protein. 18:34:36 No, I just omitted a lot of words. I omitted probably several hundred or possibly thousand exceptions to that `rule'. 18:34:50 I'm impressed you took the time to type that up. I either blame a reversal of letters typed with alternate hands, or the fact that I took German in high school. 18:35:09 I read English. You cannot infer how to pronounce that sentence. 18:35:59 I always just say "i before e, except after c, or in words of german origin." 18:37:07 Of the words I listed many are derived from Latin. 18:37:15 To be fair, -ier type words have the 'i' and 'e' both in different syllables. A slightly less broken rule might be "silent i before e except after c" 18:37:35 But mostly you just gotta believe 18:38:20 whois zombieninja 18:38:23 argh 18:40:18 *gnomon* slaps chandler around a bit with a large failwhale 18:40:25 A peculiar breed of cetacean, that. 18:43:30 -!- CSdread_ [n=danielf@c-68-35-129-24.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:45:37 mbishop: Actually there is some indirect connection to modula-3 -- we did talk about it, and we probably used the term "unsafe" while doing so, which made it a more natural choice. (For some reason I mistook modula-3 for ada earlier.) 18:49:47 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:35 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 18:56:19 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:57:05 -!- jao [n=jao@64.Red-83-46-44.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:22 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:58:38 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-121-9.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:35 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-8-226.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 19:07:30 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@213.Red-83-37-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:38 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@213.Red-83-37-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 19:11:39 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:16:34 benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:21:08 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:21:35 benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:24:24 ikaros [n=ikaros@g227072163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 19:27:26 -!- drwhen [n=doctor@c-98-225-211-78.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:28 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:39:43 npe [n=npe@d54C450C4.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:49:21 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@g227072163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 19:49:28 ikaros [n=ikaros@g227072163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:02:57 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486E0A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:28 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 20:11:31 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 20:11:55 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:12:01 CSdread_ [n=danielf@c-68-35-129-24.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:08 *wingo* finds himself in psyntax again. yick. 20:19:35 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:53 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:21:15 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 20:23:40 elias` [n=me@host86-141-109-194.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:24:47 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:24:50 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:26:22 Was Sie nicht umbringt, macht Sie stärker. 20:27:09 "Sie"? 20:27:19 ==> wingo 20:28:20 well, yeah, but in my native language we use the equivalent of "Du" in this saying... 20:28:45 I'm just formal that way 20:29:15 it sounds like some weird commercial, :) 20:29:22 (I thought that Nietzsche wrote it in the first person. No?) 20:29:31 no idea 20:30:34 har 20:30:37 well, yeah, some faint reminiscence... I guess he did 20:34:03 http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8gtzn10.txt 20:36:05 annodomini [n=lambda@174-152-185-161.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 20:36:14 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:18 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:36:30 hehe 20:37:30 Man hält das Weib für tief - warum? weil man nie bei ihm auf den Grund kommt. Das Weib ist noch nicht einmal flach. 20:38:30 Daemmerung: Is this the reason for your nick? 20:38:48 :D 20:39:37 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 20:39:48 eli: No, mere coincidence. I'm no philosopher. 20:39:49 mmc [n=mima@cs141012.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:40:27 Wasn't Nietzsche a misogynist? 20:41:04 pbusser2: uh, why whould you think so? 20:41:19 "ist noch nicht einmal flach" 20:41:35 :) 20:42:18 stepnem: I don't think so, I was just wondering. I have heard people claim that he was. 20:42:26 *eli* was a Nietzsche fan 20:42:27 it's good that Nietzche was born in the 19th Century 20:42:43 otherwise he might have ended up being WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!!!!! 20:42:52 **gasp** 20:42:55 Lol! 20:43:23 It is strange that the German word "Weib" is genderless.... 20:46:13 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 20:46:18 fnord123 [n=fnord123@host217-43-43-81.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:47:25 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@95-24-191-29.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:50:44 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:22 -!- metasyntax|work [n=taylor@75-149-208-121-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit ["Nichts mehr."] 20:53:41 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:53:51 mbishop__ [n=martin@adsl-156-66-30.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:55:43 -!- mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:44 I'm getting a kind of Dijkstra vibe from those Maxims and Arrows. 20:56:24 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:00 -!- mrscheme [n=user@67.110.140.180.ptr.us.xo.net] has left #scheme 21:01:34 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:26 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:13:14 elias` [n=me@host217-42-207-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 21:13:23 annodomini [n=lambda@174-152-185-161.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 21:13:41 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 21:13:49 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.197.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:56 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-48-246.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:59 Ugh, it looks like I will have to step up and port objc to Chicken 4 21:17:25 hi zbigniew 21:17:34 in #chicken foof says he's going to do it tommorow 21:17:47 ja, das is gut 21:17:52 *ist 21:18:00 zbigniew: I had a go but I am not really up to it 21:18:16 i have been putting it off because it sucks 21:18:26 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:19:20 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 21:20:33 and I hadn't decided on the identifier naming under 4.0 21:21:59 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:24 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 21:22:34 -!- ikaros [n=ikaros@g227072163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leave the magic to Houdini"] 21:24:10 where are chicken 4 release notes? 21:26:52 wingo: try this to start: http://www.irp.oist.jp/trac/chicken/browser/chicken/trunk/NEWS 21:29:28 chnagelog without dates... 21:30:40 -!- offby1 [n=user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:30:44 It's very nice that chicken has syntax-rules built in now btw 21:31:25 syntax-case is way nicer than syntax-rules 21:31:32 lol 21:32:33 more powerful, better error messages.. but nicer? that's not a word i'd use :) 21:32:41 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:33:25 leppie: you want dates now? how ungrateful 21:34:08 as soon as you have to write more than one macro, then it IS nicer :) for the simple case, syntax-rules is still shorter, but I have found lately that with-syntax is juts as short 21:34:51 point. 21:34:52 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@toronto-gw.adsl.erx01.mtlcnds.ext.distributel.net] has quit [] 21:34:57 sarahbot: syntax-case? 21:35:13 (** echo **) 21:36:56 from a maintainability point of view, I would say syntax-case is also better. Some syntax-rules macros get very hairy. 21:37:52 I'm not gonna argue about which macro system is more better 21:38:14 im just voicing my drunken opinion :p 21:39:15 there is nothing wrong with syntax-rules, I just find it hard to work with 21:40:01 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:41:23 hacking psyntax itself is some serious suckiness, though 21:41:25 -!- ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:35 lol indeed.. 21:41:57 i have respect for aziz for simply undersanding that thing :p 21:42:18 ssttss [i=stepnem@173-19-7-99.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 21:42:33 i have made some tweaks here and there for IronScheme to perform a bit better though 21:43:23 after 18 months of using psyntax, I still dont really understand it :( 21:43:26 guile has a fork from a while back, before chez scheme added modules 21:43:38 so i've been hacking on that fork lots recently 21:43:41 and yick. 21:43:48 not the loveliest hack. 21:44:47 i added a hashtables to the ribs for better lookup due to 1500+ locations in the R6RS already... 21:45:26 did add some boost, aziz didnt like it, but he has very fast lists which I cannot compete with 21:46:28 nice 21:46:54 I also found using pure records (instead of the portable vector mapping) made a huge difference 21:47:29 interesting 21:47:49 right now expansion is running at about 1/4 to 1/3 of compilation time 21:48:10 otherwise it's been a long hard road from getting the bootstraaping time down from 120+ seconds to 6 seconds in 12 or so months 21:48:11 that's a lot, to me ;) 21:48:22 leppie: 6 seconds! 21:48:36 all of r6rs? 21:48:39 yeah, for all of ironscheme 21:48:43 wowsers 21:48:53 but it runs slow! 21:48:55 lol 21:48:59 heh ;) 21:49:08 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 21:49:43 but due to the expansion process being the 'heviest' test I have, I have been using that as my benchmark 21:49:52 'heaviest' rather 21:50:46 it's the same for chez scheme, bootstrapping is their biggest benchmark 21:50:49 psyntax does have some ambitious stack usage for some conditions 21:50:57 at least, from reading dybvig papers it seems it is so 21:51:00 leppie: yes 21:51:13 i sometimes get a stack trace of about 250+ frames 21:53:08 thank goodness he added some source annotations lately, else those get hard to find :p 23:14:25 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 23:14:25 23:14:25 -!- names: ccl-logbot pants1 npe johnnowak ssttss offby1 ice_man` mbishop__ fnord123 REPLeffect mmc AtnNn bzzbzz jonrafkind MichaelRaskin meanburrito920_ rstandy hadronzoo Adamant_ melgray blackened` cracki sad0ur ASau cel Daemmerung RageOfThou proq soupdragon underspecified_ athos rdd jlongster jeremiah wingo luz xomas Leonidas gnomon Poeir elf m811 kniu ada2358 Khisanth Maddas chandler Debolaz ineiros duncanm z0d erg pbusser2 heat ski_ ski__ nemik 23:14:25 -!- names: Fade ski michaelw Elly poucet guenthr r0bby joast eli rotty peddie ray borism_ tabe yosafbridge acarrico minion incubot zbigniew dlouhy specbot saccade sjamaan danking duper`` maskd tarbo sohum rudybot Def XTL Quadrescence tizoc wrldpc slashcom rodge Axioplase_ mreggen lisppaste underspecified kazzmir stepnem fishey sphex clog Adrinael hiyuh pchrist elmex cky ken-p mornfall nasloc__ bohanlon Riastradh wastrel bunz felipe certainty laz0r 23:14:25 -!- names: X-Scale tessier etoxam dfeuer tttsssttt Judofyr hosh araujo Kusanagi synthase tltstc antoszka nicktastic synx metasyntax leppie tjafk2 klutometis sladegen pumpkin foof alaricsp davidad ecraven glogic p1dzkl eno rumbleca 23:16:28 Damn you all for making me look. According to http://hellosmartbook.com, these devices are "Überportable." Now I know. 23:17:54 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:09 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.175.134] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:20 bleh. Qualcomm is poo. 23:18:45 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 23:22:00 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-28-224.karneval.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:05 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs141012.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:26:16 -!- npe [n=npe@91.179.95.52] has quit [] 23:26:21 Modius [n=Modius@24.174.112.56] has joined #scheme 23:28:09 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:31:12 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:39:19 x35 [n=x@unaffiliated/kenen] has joined #scheme 23:39:23 -!- x35 [n=x@unaffiliated/kenen] has left #scheme 23:47:00 Lectus [n=Frederic@189.105.25.5] has joined #scheme 23:48:54 everbetter [n=gary@adsl-227-42-233.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:40 -!- everbetter [n=gary@adsl-227-42-233.jan.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 23:49:46 everbetter [n=gary@adsl-227-42-233.jan.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:05 -!- everbetter [n=gary@adsl-227-42-233.jan.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 23:56:04 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:53 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 23:59:07 -!- wingo [n=wingo@139.Red-79-151-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]