00:01:37 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:02:18 hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:26 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:12:12 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 00:12:42 -!- hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 00:13:24 -!- jn [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:13:30 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-76-195-126-249.dsl.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:52 -!- elfor_ [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 00:15:01 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-208-138.karneval.cz] has quit [] 00:30:03 -!- aack [n=user@a83-161-214-179.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #scheme 00:37:37 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.229.92] has joined #scheme 00:45:42 foof, I hope I gave you an adequate selection of suggestions! 00:46:22 Yes, that was very helpful, thanks! :) 00:47:16 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 00:49:25 ... if only you had suggestions to help with my Scheme implementation rant :( 00:49:32 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 00:49:45 Use a 64-bit machine? 00:49:51 what did you do, Riastradh? 00:50:08 I didn't do it! It wasn't me! 00:50:59 I can't afford to buy a new machine, and even if I could I need a notebook for demos and presentations, and 64-bit notebooks are still rare. 00:51:20 Riastradh: Is it safe? 00:51:34 Is what safe? I don't know what you're talking about! 00:52:24 Oh, that's a good question... is a tourist likely to stumble into unsafe neighborhoods? 00:55:09 I suppose that is a good question, to which I honestly don't know the answer. I don't know where tourists are likely to stumble. 00:55:18 Riastradh: Is it safe? 00:55:29 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:56:26 (and I don't have a good idea of what neighbourhoods are unsafe, if any) 00:56:59 *Elly* slaps Riastradh 00:57:03 Is it safe!? 00:57:49 I guess the orange line is reputed to go through the seedier neighbourhoods, but I have never had occasion to ride the orange line anyway, so I can't speak from personal experience about that. 00:58:11 *Elly* dies of work 00:58:18 these kernels take 5-6 hours of work each to grade 00:58:27 Elly, try asking Dustin Hoffman. He might know better. 00:58:32 Riastradh: :) 00:58:32 Bleh, updating scheme-complete to Chicken 4 and resisting the urge to throw away and rewrite the whole thing. 00:59:35 I have enough work due in the next 3 days that staying awake until saturday night is starting to look like a good strategy... 01:03:50 Elly: are you teaching classes at nineteen? 01:04:36 no, I'm a TA 01:04:45 nice 01:05:12 it's great fun ^^ 01:14:15 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.157] has joined #scheme 01:16:04 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:58 kadaver [n=hask@h14n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 01:19:47 bah i really liked clojure at first but the java libs kind of all suck :P and clojure is much uglier than CL and Scheme 01:25:22 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:25:56 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.204.157] has joined #scheme 01:26:12 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 01:30:00 dysinger [n=tim@ip-64-139-9-115.dsl.sca.megapath.net] has joined #scheme 01:33:23 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has quit [Client Quit] 01:33:33 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 01:34:05 -!- kadaver [n=hask@h14n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 01:35:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:48 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 01:38:45 You know what I really love about Emacs? How if any background process ever goes into an infinite loop there's no way to interrupt it from the event loop, so it locks up hard and you have to kill -9 Emacs. 01:39:15 It just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Because, you know, people never accidentally write inifinte loops while developing. 01:39:49 And the 6-7 minute startup time for gnus (during which Emacs is also unusable) is just icing on the cake. 01:40:01 *foof* is in a good mood 01:40:43 foof: on the bright side, your hato instance is only using 3MB of real memory 01:41:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 01:44:01 klutometis: regarding your post on the Chicken list, did you mail neilv your patch, and/or try foof's html-parser? 01:44:11 foof: hey, I don't know if I read chibi correctly, but won't immediates be mis-aligned? 01:44:28 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-134-72.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:45 ventonegro: so? 01:44:57 zbigniew: nope; is foof's an egg, or where can i find it? 01:45:32 foof: I guess that's a yes :) 01:45:34 zbigniew: you guys get htmlprag from upstream, eh? 01:45:56 klutometis: yeah. I'll apply your patch if you like, do you want it applied to chicken 3 or 4? 01:46:12 foof: well, it makes memory reads much slower 01:46:35 Chibi was *not* designed for speed! 01:47:00 foof: small footprint? 01:47:20 It's faster than Guile and much much faster than TinyScheme, but that's not saying much. 01:47:33 :) 01:47:57 klutometis: it's in chicken 4 at http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/html-parser, obtained from upstream at http://synthcode.com/scheme/html-parser.scm 01:48:19 Yes, Chibi-Scheme is meant to be TinyScheme done right. A clean implementation, hygienic macros, usable performance, all in even less code. 01:48:43 foof: yep, it's impressive 01:49:07 ghouloum could not believe the size of the macros code 01:49:42 sepult_ [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-31-170.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:50:29 zbigniew: thanks; we're using chicken 3 in the office 01:50:34 zbigniew: i'll try foof's, too 01:53:24 Anyway, when and if R7RS comes around I'll use Chibi as an example of how simple a macro system can be, and plea for sanity. 01:53:57 And even if they insist on syntax-case, maybe I can get them to actually _allow_ alternate macro implementations. 01:55:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:21 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:59:37 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:00:13 is there a macro system which can build all of the basic constructs? 02:00:25 All of which basic constructs? 02:00:32 like lambda and call/cc 02:00:58 Uh... not unless it's an assembler macro :) 02:01:18 -!- cornucopic|d0zed [n=r00t@115.241.133.177] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:01:36 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-73-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:01:37 haha 02:06:16 klutometis: done, let me know if there is a problem 02:08:39 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:09:45 foof: i haven't read about syntatic closures yet 02:23:19 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 02:24:58 cornucopic|d0zed [n=r00t@115.241.217.198] has joined #scheme 02:25:11 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-176-43.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:36:55 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:00 -!- peddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:02 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 02:59:16 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-69-23-38-57.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:02:25 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:04:58 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-176-43.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:30 zbigniew: thanks, man; you're a lifesaver 03:08:13 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@85.176.193.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:40 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176215196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:10:05 What I've read about Syntactic Closures seems to make it more complex to use. 03:10:53 Maybe I just haven't spent enough time with it. 03:11:07 Writing raw syntactic closures macros is clumsy. It's meant to be abstracted on. 03:11:19 foof: Abstracted to what? 03:11:31 Explicit renaming macros are pretty nice though, you can write them just like defmacro macros. 03:11:43 arcfide: to anything! 03:11:52 e.g. syntax-rules, or a syntax-rules alternative 03:12:03 Not locked into a fixed syntax. 03:13:07 foof, don't ER macros require you to explicitly enforce hygiene? That is, don't they default to unhygeniec? 03:13:55 Yes. 03:14:02 Ew. :-) 03:14:52 If you don't like that, use sc-macro-transformer with an abbreviated name for the ridiculously long and frequently needed make-syntactic-closure. 03:15:05 That defaults to hygienic. 03:17:44 Eh.... 03:17:51 -!- ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:17:52 I'll stick with SYNTAX-CASE, I think. 03:17:54 ski [n=slj@c-e113e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 03:18:14 I like being able to move back and forth from SYNTAX-RULES and SYNTAX-CASE rather easily. 03:18:15 That's even uglier and more confusing, but suit yourself. 03:18:28 You'll *never* be able to have an implementation as small as chibi though :P 03:19:03 The problem is that `syntax-rules' as a default is too weak, so you[*] often want to use the system beneath it -- which means that you'd want a convenient underlying system that gives you enough power and is still convenient. 03:19:11 ([*] for some values of "you", of course.) 03:19:58 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-244-200-243.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 03:20:05 I prefer using MATCH with ER macros. 03:20:05 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-73-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:20:34 foof, it just seems that the other systems don't offer quite the same combination of ease of use and generality for me. Of course, you may be right that the underlying implementation won't be as small as SC, but that's probably because there's a bit more going on. 03:20:44 match seems to be a good choice in practice 03:20:55 foof: `match' doesn't help much in regards to the E in ER. 03:21:18 I haven't spent much time in the other Macro systems, though, so I suppose that may have something to do with it. 03:21:21 eli: but it helps in regard to the pattern matching 03:21:58 I get scared off by the nonhygeniec defaults for ER, and the apparent complexity of SC (does it do hygiene by default?). But, at least we all have a choice. 03:22:10 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:17 zbigniew: If it wasn't clear, my objection to ER is in the E -- I wouldn't have any objection to a macro system based on its pattern matching capabilities, of course, because `match' is there or easy to implement. 03:22:47 my objection is George Clooney! 03:22:59 my objection is phoenix wright 03:23:14 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-129-241.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:26 eli, so you would be fine if we dropped the SYNTAX-CASE part of SYNTAX-CASE and just went with the other stuff? That is, you would be fine with replacing the pattern matching with something like MATCH? 03:23:41 *eli* didn't know that clooney was into hygienic macros 03:24:10 hygiene is paramount for an emergency room doctor 03:24:29 arcfide: I think that I wouldn't mind that since it can be added back on. 03:24:57 arcfide: But I'd really not consider any macro system without a pattern-matching capability as serious. 03:25:19 eli, why? 03:25:23 eli, I see. 03:25:35 Alright, well, this has been fun, but I must leave now. 03:25:40 Good night everyone. 03:25:51 ... and it's more important in Scheme than in Lisp, because in Scheme there is no necessary direct connection between datums and syntax -- which allows any values to represent syntax, including non-sexprs. 03:26:17 zbigniew: Why didn't I know that clooney was into hygienic macros? 03:26:46 Heh, no, I was asking why the pattern-matching capability is a requirement 03:26:57 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.229.92] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:26:58 zbigniew: Ah, well it's connected to the Scheme point above. 03:27:39 If you look through r5rs (probably in r6rs too), you'll see that there is no requirement that syntax is represented as symbols and conses. 03:33:42 wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:34:10 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.157] has quit ["bye all"] 03:51:23 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:36 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:55:39 scheme-complete 0.8.5 is available w/ chicken 4 support 04:02:06 is someone porting the mysql egg to chicken 4? 04:02:42 Yes, you are, thanks for volunteering! :) 04:03:52 I was going to try to create a common interface (I use sqlite and mysql often). I'm not sure if I have the expertise to port it as I'm not very familiar with ffi 04:08:14 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.204.157] has quit [] 04:12:27 only one instance of define-macro (should be easy to replace with an er macro) 04:12:37 ah, the common database interface 04:13:33 foof: Not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but scheme-complete is barely completing any identifiers 04:14:21 zbigniew: Can you paste a file w/ cursor position? 04:14:40 (shower, brb) 04:14:47 in attempting to port mysql, besides changing the macros, what else should I look for? 04:15:00 foof: Actually, if you have a copy of the current base64 egg, you can use that 04:16:13 foof: simply go anywhere inside the module, and on this system, you can't complete anything from the scheme module nor chicken; only read-string! and string-concatenate-reverse work, as they are imported by name 04:17:17 It will, however, complete definitions in the module as well as lexically-visible identifiers, so that works fine 04:18:06 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:30 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:19:52 unfortunately, the mysql egg doesn't support prepared statements 04:20:59 -!- cornucopic|d0zed [n=r00t@115.241.217.198] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:25:17 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:25:27 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:25:28 zbigniew pasted "scheme-complete test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79446 04:25:59 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:27:05 More critically, when the completion buffer pops up with its various completions, I can't select anything -- clicking on the buffer or trying to switch buffers with C-x o makes the completion buffer disappear immediately 04:27:15 zbigniew: works fine for me 04:27:34 The completion buffer was never designed for mouse selection. 04:27:49 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:00 Er, it would be nice to select it via the keyboard, then. 04:28:13 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-8-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:16 I never touch the mouse and have no intention of supporting that feature, though patches are welcome ;) 04:28:30 Actually, the minibuffer, so I can use minibuffer completion. But any possible way to complete it would be nice. 04:29:07 Just keep hitting (meta-) tab to scroll, or keep typing to disambiguate. 04:29:10 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-73-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 04:29:24 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-73-128.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:48 TAB works to scroll, any other key destroys the buffer immediately. 04:30:00 Yes, that's the intended design. 04:30:27 You see the list of options, and type the next one or more characters in the completion you want to disambiguate. 04:30:34 Any other interface would require more keystrokes. 04:31:06 If you can only remember one character at a time, type that character and immediately hit (meta-) tab again. 04:31:31 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 04:31:36 Ah! Let me guess... you're just putting the cursor at a random point in the file and hitting complete? 04:32:54 SugarGlider [n=stevie@dyn-203-143-164-139.qrl.nicta.com.au] has joined #scheme 04:32:56 That is the most unintuitive completion interface I have ever encountered. 04:34:00 I will try to get used to it. 04:34:23 zbigniew: Please answer - are you trying to complete in a "normal" Scheme expression where you have a specific symbol in mind that you want to complete, or are you just randomly hitting tab to see what it will do? 04:35:31 If the former, tell me where the cursor is so I can try to reproduce the bug. 04:37:16 If the latter, and in conjunction with your previous complaint, perhaps you don't want tab completion at all, you want an imported symbol browser? 04:37:32 That I have no objection to adding. 04:42:49 Though really you can get the same thing with and then switch to the *Completions* buffer. 04:46:35 I wish that was actually documented--I've never seen any other emacs mode pop up a buffer which you cannot switch to with C-x o (the buffer is immediately destroyed upon C-x) 04:47:44 The buffer isn't destroyed, the window is buried because it's assumed you want to do something else. 04:49:11 The same technique is used in a number of modes, like HTML mode. 04:50:16 But can you please answer my question? I want to know if this is a bug so I can maybe fix it before going to the lab. 04:50:31 Dude, I had to track down the bug first 04:50:52 I was just asking for a cursor position. 04:51:06 I needed a better example 04:52:52 (I did make a mistake and threw out the type information for R5RS primitives, oops.) 04:53:06 zbigniew annotated #79446 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79446#1 04:53:48 it seems that if parentheses are balanced, completion fails; I had to disable paredit to get almost any completion to work 04:54:47 It works for me... what f form are you trying to complete? 04:54:51 ^ is not a character, just the location of point -- trying to complete the identifier f. if you delete the identifier and try to complete, you will see the only one available is the function name (baz, baz1 or baz2) 04:54:56 I know. 04:55:07 anything, fx=, etc. 04:55:16 fx= isn't in your environment 04:55:25 You didn't (import chicken). 04:55:39 for-each is, though 04:55:46 When I tab I get floor-, for-each and force, which are the only R5RS identifiers beginning with f. 04:55:56 doesn't work here 04:56:14 Let me make sure I uploaded the right file. 04:56:39 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:43 inside baz2, only thing I can complete is 'baz2' -- unless I unbalance the parens, which presumably disables the module-analysis code 04:56:49 (and if anything there would be bugs when parens are unbalanced) 04:57:46 well, since fx= etc. show up when parens are unbalanced, it is clear the module imports aren't being analyzed 04:58:23 For modules it currently requires the closing module paren to be there. 04:58:56 hence my conjecture that the module code is involved 04:59:06 That was a design decision, but now I realize that if there is any form at all inside the module with unbalanced parens, the whole module will be unbalanced. 04:59:36 But in general, I develop and test in paredit-mode, so bugs tend to turn up when people edit unbalanced code. 04:59:40 well, that's perhaps a job for paredit-mode 05:00:15 regarding my earlier complaint about completion, I can see how it is supposed to work now, though i still think it's strange; in general I expect one of two completion behaviours: 05:00:39 1) drop into minibuffer to type out completion, and I can then use icomplete-mode 05:00:53 2) cycle through completions as in dabbrev 05:02:16 however, I can see the utility of this now, now that I understand its behaviour 05:02:41 it just threw me off as there was no explanation 05:02:47 I looked at very many completion styles in Emacs before deciding on this one. 05:03:14 Can you tell me the md5sum for your scheme-complete.el? 05:03:52 083b05a0d7a5e92eabee8d83698a8f9b 05:04:20 And you loaded _that_ code, you don't have an old .elc lying around? 05:04:49 I have never used scheme-complete before; I just byte-compiled it 05:04:50 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:30 That's just bizarre. What emacs-version? 05:07:27 GNU Emacs 22.3.1 (i386-apple-darwin9.6.0, Carbon Version 1.6.0) of 2009-02-17 on plume.sr.unh.edu - Aquamacs Distribution 1.7 05:08:04 I have GNU Emacs 22.3.1 (i386-apple-darwin9.6.0, Carbon Version 1.6.0), but not Aquamacs. 05:08:05 ejs [n=eugen@72-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 05:09:09 There could be something else interacting with it... I disabled what I could think of; I'll try starting Emacs up without an .emacs file, and then try non-Aquamacs 05:09:37 And I just double-checked, and it works fine with that exact file with the scheme-complete.el of the same md5sum in a freshly launched Emacs. 05:10:03 But I have a complex environment... 05:10:46 aha! 05:10:53 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:56 The problem is in my env :) 05:12:05 ... or not 05:12:28 No, sorry, works fine. 05:14:15 I started Aquamacs with no .emacs file (some customizations are still retained in ~/Library/Preferences, though :( ) and experienced the same problem 05:14:31 Let me try a non-Aquamacs version; Aquamacs does load some odd stuff 05:16:52 I just tested the vanilla Mac 22.1.1 ncurses Emacs and it worked. 05:16:56 GNU Emacs 22.0.95.1 (i386-apple-darwin8.9.1, Carbon Version 1.6.0) of 2007-03-15 on potato.local 05:17:06 Having the same problem... no .emacs file ... this is bizarre 05:18:02 With balanced parens, at each of the f positions, instead of the three possible completions you get zero completions? 05:19:30 Yes. And if I delete f and try to complete, it simply completes to the enclosing function name (baz, baz1, baz2) 05:19:39 You're loading with -q? 05:20:03 Actually, I just deleted my .emacs file temporarily 05:20:11 Can you try -q? 05:20:55 ok 05:23:32 emacs -q -l scheme-complete.el --visit foo.scm --eval '(search-forward "(f")' --eval '(scheme-smart-complete)' 05:24:22 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:24:26 I did that manually, yes, and still no dice. 05:24:37 ugh 05:24:54 I don't suppose I can get have ssh access? :) 05:25:07 Well, this is a GUI client ;) 05:25:17 I suppose I could try the text version 05:25:23 I'll try one last time exactly with the command line, etc. 05:25:45 You didn't test the ncurses version shipped with OS X? 05:25:57 -!- dstorrs [n=dstorrs@cpe-98-14-187-196.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:26:20 Nope 05:28:02 OK, using command line and Carbon Emacs, non-Aquamacs, I get 'can't find completion for "f"' 05:28:10 ~/Applications/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs -q -l scheme-complete.el --visit foo.scm --eval '(search-forward "(f")' --eval '(scheme-smart-complete)' 05:28:52 with /usr/bin/emacs -q -l scheme-complete.el --visit foo.scm --eval '(search-forward "(f")' --eval '(scheme-smart-complete)' 05:28:56 same error 05:29:25 See, if I had ssh I could debug the /usr/bin/Emacs myself ;) 05:30:47 This makes no sense. 05:32:10 Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:32:28 meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out why /usr/bin/emacs shows a version of 2009-02-14 ... 05:33:23 Both of my versions of Emacs, almost identical to yours, complete the example fine. 05:33:38 OK, give me until tomorrow, and I will set up a shell account; this is a laptop, prone to sleeping, and I have to punch through NAT as well 05:34:47 oh, hey 05:35:07 I can reproduce this on my linux box. 05:36:00 I was just about to install emacs on my Linux VM as that would be easier to ssh into, but if you can reproduce it there... 05:36:38 heck, I'll install it anyway 05:39:09 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:48 badtruffle [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:39:50 all right, foof, I also experience the problem on my Linux box; let me know if you need a second machine to test on 05:39:51 ah! 05:39:58 guess not ;) 05:40:06 zbigniew: Do you have any chicken 4 modules installed? :) 05:41:25 -!- badtruffle is now known as copumpkin 05:41:27 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:41:27 Actually, since you installed in ~/Applications it definitely won't work. 05:41:52 Uh-oh. 05:42:39 I do, but on both boxes Chicken 4 is in a non-standard location (either /usr/local/chicken4 or $HOME/local/chicken-4) 05:43:11 and chicken-install offers no way to determine the repo dir :( 05:43:26 ... like the old chicken-setup -R 05:44:06 can you export CHICKEN_REPOSITORY=... ? 05:44:10 I didn't notice in the code that scheme-complete was looking for modules on disk--is it? 05:44:28 export CHICKEN_REPOSITORY=$HOME/local/chicken-4 05:44:49 Yes, of course, otherwise how would it know what symbols are exported? :) 05:45:06 It should always know the scheme module though, I'll fix that. 05:45:38 It looked hardcoded. 05:45:58 I see it now, scheme-module-exports/chicken 05:46:11 No, R5RS and SRFIs are hardcoded to provide extra type info. 05:47:47 Setting CHICKEN_REPOSITORY didn't work 05:48:40 OK, I fixed it to use the hardcoded R5RS info, which it should do anyway to perform better type inference. 05:48:46 Considering that it also won't complete other definitions defined *inside* the module, I'm not sure it's that 05:49:22 You set CHICKEN_REPOSITORY to the directory containing the "4" directory? 05:50:29 Yeah -- $HOME/local/chicken-4 05:50:36 Actually, there is some underlying problem-- 05:51:23 It currently doesn't do forward searching of internal module defines if you indent those defines - an unfortunate performance hack. 05:51:36 I don't really want to support module code where people indent the module body though. 05:52:31 oh, ... 05:52:51 but... how do you work with paredit then? 05:54:12 i see, you have to force the first define to the left margin, and make sure never to reindent the whole module 05:54:13 It works as much as possible w/ forward-sexp, backward-sexp and beginning/end-of-defun, in order to be tolerant of unbalanced parens and expressions which aren't valid Elisp sexps. 05:56:10 Oh, wait... 05:56:11 ... especially never to perform an operation by which paredit will implictly reindent everything at toplevel 05:56:13 export CHICKEN_REPOSITORY=$HOME/local/chicken-4/4/ 05:56:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@72-254-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:56:40 I haven't encountered any paredit operations that reindent the entire file. 05:58:47 And I haven't seen any code from anyone in the Chicken SVN repo that indents the module body. 05:59:18 M-uparrow will 05:59:54 That always scared me... I have a reflex reaction to C-x u whenever I accidentally type that :) 05:59:56 Well, please document that behavior 06:00:13 I use M-uparrow constantly 06:00:37 your second CHICKEN_REPOSITORY didn't work either 06:01:03 You have a modules.db file? 06:01:22 mike [n=m@dslb-088-067-026-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:01:26 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:30 hmm, does it not do -backward- searching of module defines either? even when I de-indent to left margin, it only finds definitions after that point in the file 06:01:49 No, it doesn't find any defines not adjusted to the left margin. 06:01:50 -!- mike is now known as Guest79491 06:02:37 i mean, everythings at the left margin, and it only finds stuff ahead 06:02:57 OK, the REPO works now; I've got the correct path and the completion works 06:03:45 Oh, hang on, that _is_ a bug in the internal defines. 06:04:46 Let me confirm 06:05:55 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [] 06:07:18 -!- Guest79491 [n=m@dslb-088-067-026-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:08:37 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 06:08:52 has anyone seen the latest python implementation of tail recursion? 06:09:14 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8gjdm/tail_recursion_implemented_by_a_small_python_pic/ 06:09:16 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cjyf5j 06:09:20 zbigniew annotated #79446 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79446#2 06:09:33 Let me know if I am doing something wrong 06:11:02 No, that's the bug, it only finds the last form in the module (and always finds the current define which is part of the local scope, not the global defs). 06:11:48 Oh, silly bug :) 06:12:34 incubot: thank Bog I'm not completely crazy 06:12:37 do you know if any scheme systems do crazy things like using RB trees for environments, or was that purely hypothetical? 06:16:08 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@berle.cc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:49 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:17:52 OK, fixed. 06:18:13 foof: my outline-minor-mode only looks for defines in the leftmost column as well, so I can agree with this design decision 06:19:53 Well, I'm not happy with it, but I'll have to wait until I finish my Emacs replacement before I fix it :/ 06:21:36 la la la 06:24:29 ASau` [n=user@77.246.230.154] has joined #scheme 06:25:27 ok, I'll give you a week 06:25:49 incubot: i'm just kidding 06:25:52 ur kidding me 06:25:59 ya 06:29:11 Riastradh: It would be nice if M-uparrow restricted itself to reindenting the current defun only (as determined by beginning/end-of-defun). 06:29:41 tessier [n=treed@unused-105-40-113.ixpres.com] has joined #scheme 06:36:45 zbigniew: Actually, when I do M-uparrow it doesn't indent the whole module, but I may have hacked that locally... 06:54:27 drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #scheme 06:55:32 foof: dunno, it may only do it in the contrived case where you M-uparrow lift a sub-expression up to module level, which would be rare in a define; e.g. 06:56:41 lifting an expression will only reindent at the level it is lifted to, and no higher 06:59:05 does anyone here know a project that uses c++ as an intermediate language? anything that transparently compiles to C++ and then compiles that to get an executable 07:03:14 hey ecraven 07:20:31 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:21:32 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.126] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:21:32 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:35 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 07:31:39 Ragnaroek [i=54a6696c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fc56bcc9311cd4db] has joined #scheme 07:33:32 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0547A6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:46:51 -!- cracki 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ZOMG. 12:22:54 incubot: down till monday, lulz. 12:22:57 then, if there are any (define caller-environment "lulz") in the function, THOSE will overwrite THAT, not the other way around 12:23:35 lulz are sacred, incy. 12:24:06 -!- lord-carlos [i=carlos@ip-59-215.bnaa.dk] has left #scheme 12:25:22 -!- Mikoangelo [i=mikael@chemwarrior.meta.io] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:25:25 Mikoangelo [i=mikael@chemwarrior.meta.io] has joined #scheme 12:29:09 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 12:29:30 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 12:36:29 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:18 benny [n=benny@i577A253F.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 12:48:48 puchacz [n=puchacz@87.194.5.99] has joined #scheme 12:50:52 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has quit [No route to host] 13:01:15 -!- liza0 [n=lisa@76.76.161.15] has quit [] 13:03:33 antoszka 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antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 15:20:27 dstorrs pasted "Basic continuation stuff" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79466 15:20:57 if anyone has a minute, I could use some clarification on continuations. I had expected this one to jump me out of a for loop (plt scheme) but it does not. 15:22:34 Ragnaroek [i=54a67ad2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7304120279573f3a] has joined #scheme 15:23:50 uh no 15:24:19 think about it, it jumps to where it sets k 15:24:33 then enters the loop again 15:25:49 rudybot: eval (let/ec break (for ([i (in-range 1 100)]) (if (= i 6) (break i) (display i)))) 15:25:51 eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm" sandbox is ready 15:25:51 eli: ; Value: 6 15:25:52 eli: ; stdout: "12345" 15:26:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:26:25 dzhus [n=sphinx@93.80.215.44] has joined #scheme 15:26:39 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 15:26:45 dstorrs: Translation: what geckosenator said, plus -- using an escape continuation is cheaper, plus `let/ec' is an easier form, plus look all that up in the docs. 15:27:01 heh. 15:27:16 Yeah, I've been reading the Guide, the Reference, and the web-server example under "More" 15:27:31 there's just a ////whole//// lot here to digest, so I started playing with it. 15:29:08 check me on one thing, though. 15:29:31 rudybot: eval (let/ec break (for ([i (in-range 1 100)]) (if (= i 6) (break i) (display i)))) 15:29:32 poucet: your sandbox is ready 15:29:33 poucet: ; Value: 6 15:29:33 poucet: ; stdout: "12345" 15:29:56 in general, call/cc grabs the continuation "above" (or "around") itself. 15:30:26 so, (+ 1 (call/cc ... 0)), the continuation is (+1 []) 15:30:27 right ? 15:31:26 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:31:28 if so, in my code, shouldn't the call/cc have grabbed the continuation from around the (let...) statement? i.e., "(say ( [] ))" ? 15:31:34 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has joined #scheme 15:31:38 dstorrs: yes -- so you won't be able to use it to escape the addition. 15:31:55 but I wasn't trying to. I wanted to escape the for loop 15:32:16 No, it grabbed this: (let ([i <*>]) (for ...)) 15:32:40 which basically gives you an escape back to the *beginning* of the for loop. 15:32:48 ahhhhh, of course. 15:32:56 thanks, that makes it much clearer. 15:33:15 It should have been (call/cc (lambda (k) (for ... (k 'something) ...))) 15:33:17 so, if I wanted to escape the loop, it would be something like (say ( (call/cc ...))) 15:33:37 Or more conveniently: (let/cc k (for ... (k 'something) ...)) 15:33:49 Or more efficiently: (let/ec k (for ... (k 'something) ...)) 15:35:29 riiight. ok, much clearer. so, really, an oversimplified version would be to say that the ocntinuation gets bound at exactly the point the 'k' appears...i.e., not before the open paren on call/cc or let/ec, as I had been thinking. 15:36:02 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:03 ok, thanks. I'll go bang around with it some more. 15:37:01 It's simple once you get used to it: take the *whole* expression, replace the (call/cc ...) or (let/cc ...) etc with a hole -- that's your continuation. 15:37:52 And I suggested `let/ec' (an "escape continuation") for another reason besides speed: it's conceptually easier to understand -- in your example, you'd get an error message about not being able to use instead of getting some weird results. 15:40:10 will do. 15:42:51 (btw eli...I like your "whole" / "hole" mnemonic) 15:43:27 the whole ((call/cc call/cc) (lambda (k) ... )) think had me confused for a little while 15:43:32 :) Actually, it was completely unintentional, and I didn't notice it until you said that... 15:43:37 but is (call/cc call/cc) the same as the Y combinator? 15:43:44 *eli* is way too tired to notice such things. 15:43:56 geckosenator: No, but it's close. 15:44:06 how is it different? 15:44:16 It's ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) which is infinite. 15:44:28 And to turn it into Y you'd need to inject a function inside too. 15:44:29 yes I know 15:44:56 So (call/cc call/cc) is roughly like (lambda (x) (x x)) -- which is not Y. 15:45:37 oh 15:46:44 well the only difference is you have the apply the function to itself 15:47:14 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 15:47:21 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 15:47:27 like ((call/cc call/cc) (lambda (k) (k k))) 15:48:05 well it's the same infinite loop 15:49:10 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:03 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:09 -!- antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50:22 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:36 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:52:16 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:51 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:57:33 -!- higepon407 [n=taro@FLH1Aip247.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:03:25 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 16:11:43 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:11 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:56 cornucopic [n=r00t@115.241.208.235] has joined #scheme 16:17:21 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 16:17:52 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:04 wow. Continuations are really, really cool. 16:19:17 geckosenator: Yes, you need to apply it on itself, but that still doesn't give you Y 16:19:39 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@93.80.215.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:57 mweinelt_ [n=mweinelt@p4FDC592E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:51 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-229-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:39 lfuser-889 [n=lfuser-8@64-126-86-36.dyn.everestkc.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:42 www.LinuxCAD.com, need a Linux Consultant 80k/year 16:32:46 www.LinuxCAD.com, need a Linux Consultant 80k/year 16:35:43 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:07 -!- mweinelt [n=mweinelt@79.220.106.236] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:50 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 16:43:03 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:45:19 elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 16:46:42 barney [n=bernhard@p549A14BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:46:44 Riastradh, ping 16:56:33 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 16:57:04 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:59:11 -!- proq` is now known as proq 17:02:22 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 17:04:08 -!- lfuser-889 [n=lfuser-8@64-126-86-36.dyn.everestkc.net] has left #scheme 17:09:53 -!- LobsterMan is now known as LobsterMan_AFK 17:12:26 buggarage [n=user@xdsl-87-78-72-170.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:14:05 -!- tizoc is now known as caploybot 17:14:20 -!- caploybot is now known as tizoc 17:17:03 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:30 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Repair..."] 17:22:03 ejs [n=eugen@123-186-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:31 question: file->lines reads a file and returns it as a sequence of lines. file->string returns it as a sequence of characters. is there a func that returns it as one single string? 17:25:28 oh wait. no, file->string does return it as a string. but for (line (file->string...)) then splits it into chars. 17:30:34 -!- dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 17:30:54 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 17:35:45 in any Scheme implementation, the REPL prompt, takes a expression, evaluates it, returns the result and then waits for the next expression. Is that continuation ? 17:36:23 probably not the way you're thinking of. 17:36:25 That's a continuation of a FAQ. 17:37:03 I've actually just been studying this stuff today and was asking about it earlier. :> 17:37:27 foof, What is the A then ? :) 17:37:40 Asked 17:37:50 ;> 17:38:03 I mean the A, as in Answer to Q :) 17:38:19 Every expression that isn't a value has a continuation. 17:38:28 The continuation is literally "what do I do next?" 17:38:33 implicit? 17:39:02 So, in (+ 1 (+ 2 3)) when you are evaluating the (+ 2 3) the _continuation_ of that is (+ 1 []) 17:39:14 where the [] stands for "insert value here" 17:39:53 Yes. SO, _that_ is how the evaluator works, implements it as continuations? 17:39:54 [aside: the (+ 2 3) is called the "redex" in the docs I've been reading, because its the EXpression being REDuced.] 17:40:12 I would imagine that's implementation dependent. 17:40:12 Would you plz. refer me the doc ? 17:40:32 OK. 17:40:33 These are PLT specific, but here you go: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/ 17:40:40 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/ 17:40:47 My REPL ex. is completely off here, then ? :) 17:40:50 OK. Thanks 17:41:32 well, in PLT the reference doc says that the repl is implemented via "prompts", which are closely related to but not the same as, continuations. 17:42:03 but you definitely /could/ implement a repl using continuations 17:42:42 Yes. Makes sense. 17:42:53 Is there something called 'root continuation' ? 17:43:33 I haven't stumbled across that particular term, but it would be a logical one. Presumably it would mean "the state of the program on initial load, before anything starts" 17:44:11 probably its a logical one- I am looking at a source.. 17:46:24 For the past couple hours I've been playing around with continuations, and I've got some toy code that helps make it clear. you want to see it? 17:46:36 s/clear/clearER/ 17:47:45 sure :) 17:51:21 dstorrs pasted "Continuations example: toy code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79474 17:51:43 it reads in one (toy) config file, then creates a new file and writes to it. 17:51:45 like a toy for kids? 17:52:00 it uses the continuation to avoid excess processing. 17:52:42 geckosenator: yeah, except it's one of those edumacashional toys and it's intended for grownups. 17:52:55 dstorrs: I can still just convert it to no continuations 17:53:04 they don't give you performance advantage I can see 17:53:33 geckosenator: they skip matching the remaining lines after the information has been found. 17:53:43 I can exit that with lambda 17:53:45 but ok 17:53:50 it might make it look nicer 17:54:03 besides, cf "toy example" -- not really intended to be useful, just a simple excuse to use continuations 17:54:07 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.139.238] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:54:31 geckosenator: "exit with lambda"? how would that work? 17:54:42 with conditionals on inner and outer 17:55:11 show me? 17:55:25 you loop on reading lines 17:55:39 then exit when you found it? 17:55:39 (since I don't have an explicit "inner" and "outer", I'm not sure what you're referring to) 17:55:48 that's the more complicated case 17:55:49 yes, but there's two things to find. 17:55:50 with nested loops 17:56:02 and you need to have both. 17:56:21 so what 17:56:34 use named let 17:56:37 it's easier 17:56:45 maybe the limitation is in the for loop 17:56:51 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A14BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:01 -!- cornucopic is now known as cornucopic|dozed 17:58:06 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:59:04 -!- jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:43 geckosenator: ok, I'm not getting what you're saying. The for loop is going to invoke its body once per line, right? 18:00:17 so I need some way to jump out of the for loop. I'm not clear on how named let does that. 18:00:52 say the file was 10k lines long, and I only need to look at the first 2 lines. 18:01:13 or are you saying to do away with the for loop? 18:04:29 cornucopic|dozed: note that geckosenator is almost certainly right to be criticizing this code. I'm new at Scheme, and this code is just me frobbing various knobs to see what they do, so this should /not/ be considered the Right Thing. 18:08:20 dstorrs annotated #79474 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/79474#1 18:10:22 melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:13:07 jlongster [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:14:59 geckosenator: general scheme question for you, if you don't mind. I'm used to Perl where you can reference a func on line 10 and then define it on line 20...when you run the program, the compiler sees the usage on line 10 and assumes that at some point you'll define it (i.e., non-defined is a runtime error) 18:15:29 Scheme doesn't seem to like that. Is there a way to make it ok? 18:16:34 ("no" is a fine answer, just want to make sure I'm not missing something) 18:22:48 you want compile time not runtime? 18:27:32 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [] 18:30:33 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 18:30:37 I'd like it to wait until runtime to tell me that something isn't defined. 18:30:58 Gast_157_ [i=Pennerga@91-67-183-60-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:31:06 Hey guck mal auf dieser Seite kann man die schülerVZ profile von anderen Leuten ändern, deren nachrichten lesen und fake nachrichten verschicken und damit leute verarschen. Der Link: http://schuelervzspy.com/?d=cc2ae9a68375ed1a0b49161aedef4c24 18:31:09 that way, I can have the kickoff code at the top of the file and the various functions at the bottom 18:31:24 bweaver [n=user@75-148-111-133-Chattanooga.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:28 -!- Gast_157_ [i=Pennerga@91-67-183-60-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:47 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 18:41:23 I've always wondered why URL spammers drop their stuff into programming channels. You'd think it would be worth their time to do a simple histogram on the hits they get back and then focus on the "good" (i.e. stupid) channels. 18:41:24 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:50 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:46:36 dstorrs, I think you're assuming that the tradeoff of the effort required to aim spam is worth the increase effectiveness. In my experience, spammers experience a greater benefit by simply spewing out more crap than by aiming it at any particular crowd. 18:46:55 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:49:11 gnomon: there has to be a limit though. Say that your available server power can pump out 100 spams in 1 time unit, and you get a 1% return on those spams--one person. If aiming allows you to achieve 70 spam/TU but a 5% effectiveness, you have just more than trippled your ROI 18:51:58 my guess is that either spammers like to buy convenience--they are making enough off the 1% ROI that they don't really need to increase it-- or else they are spending their resources more on the security side (not getting caught) than the ROI side. 18:52:11 You're also assuming that spammers even care about those numbers. The ROI on the capabilities of better aiming your botnet is based on your chance of being caught and prosecuted, not on how much it costs financially. 18:52:25 Heh. Exactly. 18:54:07 but it still doesn't make sense. A success histogram is easy to do--ensure the outgoing links are fingerprinted, then set up an Excel spreadsheet. the extra money you make from that is more resources to put into not being caught. 18:55:26 You're describing a spammer with the motives and means to apply simple analysis to what amounts to petty vandalism. While your point is correct, I think your model of the demographic may be flawed. 18:58:28 Maybe. But spam is pretty big business--what do you think is reasonable, 100M spam per day and a 0.1% hit rate? 18:59:36 that's still 100,000 hits. if you can make a dime off each person, you're making ten grand a day, or $3.65M per year. 19:00:11 there are plenty of legitimate businesses that don't make that, and all of them spend effort on maximizing their profits. Why wouldn't spammers? 19:01:06 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.70.84] has quit [Success] 19:01:43 *gnomon* shrugs 19:05:04 huh. Actually, my numbers are crazy low. Assume only one spam per second * 10,000 machines * 24 hrs = 864_000_000 messages per day. Almost another order of magnitude. Well, assume it's a 0.01% hit rate to compensate. 19:07:09 dstorrs: maybe they spam here for diversification 19:08:08 heh. And maybe I should stop thinking about this before the dollar signs and the unfairness of life overwhelm my conscience and make me change careers. :> 19:08:30 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 19:12:05 careers? 19:12:44 how do you get people to pay you for spam? 19:12:50 Just let it go, geckosenator. We can debate better things, or at least ones closer to the topic of this channel :) 19:13:28 oh I wanted to make 10,000 per day but I guess now I can't 19:13:36 -!- cornucopic|dozed [n=r00t@115.241.208.235] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:17:58 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 19:20:14 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:21:48 -!- HG` [n=wells@91.108.74.20] has quit [Client Quit] 19:22:02 gnomon: Actually, I think just about anything we could debate would be better than spam and its economic underpinnings. :> 19:22:36 I DISPUTE YOUR ASSERTION SIR 19:22:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:22:50 *laugh* 19:23:26 OH YEAH!? WELL, I DISPUTE YOUR DISPUTATION OF MY ASSERTION, SIR 19:23:51 shirley you can come up with some money-making scheme apps 19:23:54 (let's see how meta- we have to make this debate before spam becomes a better choice.) 19:23:56 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 19:24:18 I mean, that's why we're here, right? to make money? 19:24:18 proq: I'm sure she can. Unfortunately, she's not in channel. 19:24:45 proq: sure. How about a spam server written in Scheme? ...oh, wait. ;> 19:25:13 nah. I prefer my server to serve tea 19:25:13 Actually, one of the reasons I'm finally sitting down to learn Scheme is because I want to try it out for a SaaS business 19:25:30 and see if it's worth all the Hosannah's that Paul Graham heaps upon it. 19:25:30 in fact, it's about time I get started coding that server 19:25:46 put all the poor chai-jinns out of work 19:25:56 my server brought me tea 30 mins ago. 19:26:06 unfortunately, my server is recursive, so I had to get it myself. 19:26:18 well I don't have one... I have to brew it myself 19:30:15 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:28 wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:31:14 dstorrs: i think it has more the quality of a benedictus; PG's praise, that is 19:31:37 ? 19:31:38 benedictus qui venit in nomine lambdae, that is 19:31:49 ah. 19:32:26 "praise of those who live in the way of the lambda"? 19:32:59 (idiomatic...venit in nomine more literally "come to the name", I suppose?) 19:33:18 my Latin is rusty. 19:33:21 "praise [to] those who come [to me] in the name of the lambda" 19:35:26 gnomon: exactly; except i got clowned: lambda is neuter, not feminine; and also indeclinable 19:35:31 my server is recursive too. it's got a potty mouth 19:35:38 cursing over and over again 19:36:45 BW^- [n=Miranda@151.83.3.68] has joined #scheme 19:36:52 i should learn some more scheme stuff. 19:36:53 proq: for the record, (eq? dstorrs.server dstorrs) ;; #t 19:37:02 what is a syntactic closure, as compared with a regular closure? 19:37:17 apparently my recursion joke died stillborn. 19:37:21 klutometis, I didn't know about the indeclinability! Gwah, that brings me back to early days of rosa, rosa, rosam, rosae, rosae, rosas... ugh 19:39:19 ? 19:39:19 and what's a syntactic closure macro? 19:39:24 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.103.145] has joined #scheme 19:41:08 I'm a bit confused. In Scheme, is it customary, advised, not advised, or combination of any of the aformentioned items to define procedures before dereferencing them? 19:41:32 ebzzry: I asked about this earlier. AFIACT, it's required. 19:41:44 ebzzry: by dereferencing, you mean, referencing? 19:41:50 (at least in PLT. haven't looked at the actual spec) 19:42:02 klutometis: Sorry for the ambiguity, yes. 19:42:05 dstorrs: OK 19:42:29 dstorrs: Can you point to me the document (or set of) stating what you have just said? 19:42:51 incubot: (define (a) (b 2)) (define (b x) x) (a) 19:42:52 2 19:43:14 BW^-: Syntacitc closures are just like regular closures, but I think they close over syntax. ;-) 19:43:28 ebzzry: simplest proof: plug this into a repl: (foo 1 2) (define foo (lambda x y) (+ c y)) 19:43:43 ebzzry: it should spit up because you are calling the func before defining it. 19:44:16 ebzzry: It's possible to define a set of functions that depend on functions that haven't been defined yet. 19:44:21 if you want to dig in the standards for a definitive answer, look here: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/ 19:44:31 dstorrs: OK 19:44:33 arcfide: OK 19:44:43 ebzzry: the top level proceeds linearly, so yes: define before reference; otherwise, see LETREC and my example above 19:45:03 However, it is not possible to actually evaluate a binding before it is bound. 19:45:33 OK. I asked because in other Lisps, care must be taken when calling a function before its definition. 19:45:33 klutometis: Proceeds linearly? The REPL is different than the top level. 19:45:51 klutometis: Also, in top-level R6RS programs, definitions use LETREC, which means they are also linear in some sense. 19:46:23 minion: eval (let () (define x (lambda () y)) (define y (lambda () 'a)) (x)) 19:46:25 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 19:46:34 rudybot: eval (let () (define x (lambda () y)) (define y (lambda () 'a)) (x)) 19:46:34 arcfide: your sandbox is ready 19:46:34 arcfide: ; Value: # 19:46:42 rudybot: eval (let () (define x (lambda () y)) (define y (lambda () 'a)) ((x))) 19:46:43 arcfide: ; Value: a 19:46:48 ebzzry: See above. 19:46:56 arcfide: Yes 19:47:20 rudybot: eval (let () (define x a) (define a '()) x) 19:47:20 arcfide: ; Value: # 19:47:24 arcfide: that's effectively the same (but more verbose than) my example above, isn't it? 19:47:25 Eh!!? 19:47:30 -!- drwhen [n=d@216-67-73-247-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:47:38 I expected an error there. 19:48:10 rudybot: eval (let () (foo 1) (define foo (lambda (x) x))) 19:48:11 dstorrs: your sandbox is ready 19:48:11 dstorrs: error: eval:1:16: define: not allowed in an expression context in: (define foo (lambda (x) x)) 19:48:15 klutometis: In the above I don't really know how Incubot evaluates that code. 19:48:56 ebzzry: What Scheme are you using? 19:49:02 arcfide: PLT 19:49:56 arcfide: This would raise an error: (let () (define x a) (define a '() x)) 19:50:15 arcfide: Oops 19:50:55 When I evaluate (let () (define x a) (define a '()) x) in Chez, it gives me an error about an undefined variable a. 19:51:19 Which is what I expect, and I wonder why it is doing something differently in Rudybot? 19:51:22 arcfide: Hmm, I get # 19:51:30 rudybot: Get me your manager! 19:51:30 arcfide: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 19:51:57 ebzzry: Maybe that's allowed, but...does that count as an error/ 19:52:02 s/\//?/ 19:52:18 arcfide: I don't think so (the last expr) 19:52:32 Are implementations of R6RS required to signal an error when they encounter such an undefined variable? 19:52:35 arcfide: Chez may be stricter? 19:52:50 arcfide: Good question. 19:53:06 ebzzry: Well, I have no question in my mind that it is an error, I just wonder if this is one of the situation where the standards allow for errors to be ignored. 19:53:06 s/\?/./ 19:53:50 arcfide: Do you wonder or not why PLT returns #? 19:54:34 Yes. 19:55:45 arcfide: It looks like I'll have to dig deeper in the documentation (if it's in there) for a decent explanation of that _or_ I could ask the PLT guys. 19:57:22 Ttfn 19:57:29 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@115.147.103.145] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:10 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-50-229-92.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:03 langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has joined #scheme 20:04:04 -!- saccade [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-28.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:05:36 mapmeta [n=user@ec2-67-202-9-111.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 20:08:02 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:40 -!- langmartin [n=user@exeuntcha.tva.gov] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:12:59 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:20:42 -!- mapmeta [n=user@ec2-67-202-9-111.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #scheme 20:24:06 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 20:24:54 badtruffle [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:25:23 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:50 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.80.90.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:37 a-s [n=user@92.80.90.15] has joined #scheme 20:27:15 zbrown_ [n=rufius@70.99.184.110] has joined #scheme 20:28:05 -!- zbrown [n=rufius@unaffiliated/zbrown] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:28:16 -!- zbrown_ is now known as zbrown 20:29:24 sphex__ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:33:54 -!- sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:05 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67ad2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7304120279573f3a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:40:04 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit ["An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader"] 20:41:48 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:56 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 20:49:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:05 vixey [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:58:24 pschorf [n=paul@isr5045.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 20:58:49 Is there a way to have scheme print fractions as their decimal approximations? 20:59:19 rudybot: eval (exact->inexact 3/4) 20:59:20 mejja: your sandbox is ready 20:59:20 mejja: ; Value: 0.75 20:59:35 thanks, mejja 21:02:46 -!- badtruffle is now known as copumpkin 21:08:05 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:13:05 -!- copumpkin [n=pumpkin@Aeropuerto.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has quit [] 21:15:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:18 mmc [n=mima@cs140108.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 21:20:12 Riastradh: The kings domain name has been taken. Perhaps grassland can be a hosted over at example.com, eg, king@grassland.example.com :P 21:23:09 *mejja* laughs 21:23:22 dysinger [n=tim@216.112.110.172.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:19 incubot: More than 100 suppliers in the Midwest region generate the cream used in Grassland butter. 21:25:22 Aaaah... I'm actually from NC but I went to college in the midwest. 21:29:38 antoszka_ [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 21:30:08 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 21:30:20 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 21:30:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:22 incubot: but tell us what you *really* think about r6rs 21:31:25 quit making useless jabs at aspect and tcl and tell me why your ffi is excellent. I want to know. 21:34:09 alaricsp_ [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 21:35:22 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:41 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@cl-88.cph-01.dk.sixxs.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:10 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:50:42 -!- alaricsp_ [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:00:40 brandelune [n=suzume@pl092.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 22:02:57 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 22:09:24 rudybot: (eval (require scheme/system) (system* "echo" "foo")) 22:09:25 dstorrs: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 22:09:43 rudybot: eval (begin (require scheme/system) (system* "echo" "foo")) 22:09:43 dstorrs: error: subprocess: `execute' access denied for echo 22:09:56 hm 22:10:10 -!- elfor [n=johanfre@85.8.2.11.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit [] 22:10:14 when I run that locally, I get told "exec failed (-1)" 22:10:20 is that likely to be a permissions issue? 22:11:06 because it works if I do (system "echo 'Hello World'") 22:11:25 I think echo is a shell primitive, not an executable 22:12:06 Aha! 22:12:07 -!- BW^- [n=Miranda@151.83.3.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:20 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 22:12:25 p1dzkl: that probably depends on the shell 22:12:27 you're right. when I run it as (system* "/bin/echo" "hello world") it works 22:13:27 thanks p1dzkl 22:15:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-183-106.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:16:26 -!- dysinger 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incubot: christ; went out on a limb today; apollo doesn't appreciate hubris 23:58:05 Mother, may I go and swim? / Yes, my darling daughter; / Hang your clothes on yonder limb / But don't go near the water. 23:58:38 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.50.229.92] has joined #scheme