00:10:17 garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:23 -!- garslo [n=user@ppp-69-217-237-247.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has left #scheme 00:10:46 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:54 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:15:32 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:23 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:22:29 xwl [n=user@114.245.141.51] has joined #scheme 00:23:28 No segfaults yet. I think it's nabbed. 00:24:19 Isn't LaTeX its own language mogunus? I would just write a document in that...don't know much about it though. 00:24:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:01 synx: there is a package for latex that formats source code prettily 00:28:28 synx: it needs language definitions to do things like hilight keywords, etc. 00:28:51 Trying to figure out if I need to make one myself for scheme, or not. 00:29:27 It's likely. I've never even heard of that before. 00:29:41 It's called the "listings" package. It really is quite nice. 00:32:13 -!- rule0 [n=rule0@85.103.57.97] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:36:41 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has joined #scheme 00:41:31 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:37 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:49:14 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:49:34 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:18 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:21 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:52:41 foof: `fmt-c' doesn't do array variable decls right, it seems: 00:52:56 > (fmt #f (c-expr '(%var (int (%array 4)) foo))) ==> "int[4] foo;\n" 00:52:56 00:53:32 (or perhaps I'm Doing It Wrong[tm]) 00:53:46 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 00:56:10 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:57:59 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has left #scheme 01:05:24 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:52 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:06:01 rotty: What would you expect that to print? 01:08:47 oh, duh 01:09:09 *foof* just woke up 01:10:48 (yeah, this is valid Java :-) -- I also spotted it only after GCC yelled at me) 01:12:46 (fmt #f (c-expr '(%var (%array int 4) foo))) 01:12:56 Was the intended usage. 01:13:18 I see that isn't documented. 01:13:26 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:14:33 You can also do (fmt #f (c-expr '(%var (%array int 4) foo #(0 1 2 3)))) 01:19:00 is there a emacs package compatible with mzscheme that does symbol completion and function application previews in the minibuffer?... 01:19:06 (nice that you can use vectors as initializers) 01:19:46 foof: (fmt #f (c-expr '(%var (%array int 4) foo #(0 1 2 3)))) ==> "[int4] foo = #(0 1 2 3);\n" 01:19:59 (that was what I tried at first) 01:20:18 (modulo the vector thing) 01:20:20 Oh... I need to push a new release then :) 01:20:28 fmt-c has accumulated a lot of changes. 01:22:27 -!- jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:48 But the thing to remember is don't think of the syntax like C. The type is "array of int" so it's written (%array int). 01:23:27 cool. will you be able to do so (or send me a patch) before say mid-next-week? I've used fmt-c for a Uni assignment, and still need to test the code I'm generating ;-) 01:23:56 sure 01:24:11 foof: yep, as I said, that was even my first intution 01:41:10 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-169.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:44:12 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:17 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:50:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:46 xwl` [n=user@114.246.72.235] has joined #scheme 01:56:58 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 01:57:41 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:49 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:28 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:00:32 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:02:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:41 how are we doing scheme? 02:14:17 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:14:40 -!- xwl [n=user@114.245.141.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:25 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@18.188.70.132] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:16:27 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:20:54 ... 02:21:01 (now you're supposed to say: "I can't HEAR you!") 02:22:02 We are well-fed and satisfied with life. 02:22:50 offby1: new eatery in your neighborhood, corner of Wallingford and 36th. It's-a verra verra nice. 02:23:24 *ada2358* needs to be better fed 02:28:52 Daemmerung: yeah, I know about it, actually 02:29:05 Daemmerung: have you been there, or have you just been reading about it? 02:29:18 (I haven't been myself; just been planning to go) 02:30:20 what do they serve? 02:30:42 old people food for you and Daemmerung? 02:30:44 *mbishop* snickers 02:31:26 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:51 Y'know, polenta /is/ creamed corn. I never thought about it that way. 02:32:09 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:32:33 offby1: just dined there. 02:33:09 Going to be crowded as hell now that the sole surviving Seattle paper has burbled about it. 02:33:31 Yeah 02:33:57 *mbishop* still wonders what kind of food they serve 02:34:12 *Daemmerung* really did order polenta 02:34:30 mbishop: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/restaurants/2009014075_cicero10.html 02:34:31 *mbishop* doesn't know what polenta is 02:34:39 Grits. 02:34:51 Italian! that's all you had to say 02:36:21 I don't have much experience with italian food..unless you consider Olive Garden italian :) 02:55:31 Arelius_ [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 02:58:31 *shudder* 03:00:52 augh 03:00:59 benny [n=benny@i577A1BF5.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 03:01:57 arcfide [n=arcfide@h-69-3-100-132.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:23 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["vanished under the wainscotting"] 03:03:37 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:01 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:06:10 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:09:27 -!- Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:06 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:29:15 -!- Arelius_ [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [] 03:29:27 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 03:41:21 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:32 hiphopjesus [n=john@adsl-69-110-25-99.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:44:26 -!- hiphopjesus [n=john@adsl-69-110-25-99.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has left #scheme 03:44:42 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 03:47:03 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:10 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 03:49:52 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:33 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:05:13 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:09:53 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176209203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:16:06 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:53 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176223091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:31 foof: your html parser gave me a real scare this week. 04:40:17 did it say "boo" really loud? 04:42:12 saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:45:43 incubot: it was a couple days "late", wink wink 04:45:46 kind of a "wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean" kind of situation 04:45:54 right 04:48:34 That's what _she_ said 04:48:38 No pun intended. 04:48:48 *offby1* picks his teeth with a matchbook covers 04:48:53 not much happening in #scheme 04:50:17 incubot: delectabe 04:50:19 incubot: delectable 04:50:22 aha, I've had that before. It's delectable! I'll have to give that a try when I next get to make dessert. 04:50:40 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:12 incubot: coterminous 04:53:38 ha, gotcha 04:56:24 Found a segfault in plt earlier today offby1. That's something I'd consider happening. 04:57:56 I am trying to think of something to write :) 04:59:07 synx: I did too, a while ago; never could repro it though 05:00:12 incubot: coterie 05:00:34 incubot: naranja 05:00:42 I'm going to try to write a forth interpreter in C 05:00:49 incubot: norris 05:00:52 yes, the Cid one is based on the Chuck Norris one. 05:01:18 Elly: why not write it in scheme? 05:01:38 offby1: I'm not a very good scheme programmer 05:01:56 hey, then your could learn 2 languages :) 05:02:05 and I could spell things wrong 05:03:27 incubot: forthwith 05:03:30 no more puns, forthwith! 05:03:31 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@h-69-3-100-132.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:39 ehehehe 05:03:46 incubot: Hjorth 05:03:53 incubot: Hjörth 05:04:08 incubot: Churl 05:04:11 Did you guys see the Joo Churl Soo SRFI? It's gone final. 05:04:13 offby1: technically it was foof's code that did it, some weird combination of peeks and reads that passed a null pointer where a real pointer was needed. 05:04:58 damn you foof, with your peeks and reads and you probably threw in a cons somewhere 05:05:34 He's a real consman 05:05:37 xwl`` [n=user@114.245.140.200] has joined #scheme 05:05:48 Most people never use peek, so that's probably why nobody ever ran across the bug before. 05:07:39 eek 05:09:23 -!- luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has quit ["Client exiting"] 05:11:48 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:57 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:12:52 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:20:22 -!- xwl` [n=user@114.246.72.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:16 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:29 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit ["Goin' away"] 05:34:00 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:36:40 incubot: jeez, dude, don't do that to me at this hour. 05:36:43 jeez, i can't even code html properly 05:50:20 incubot: 0wnz 05:50:35 incubot: ownz 05:50:38 code ownz 05:54:49 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-93-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:57 Arelius_ [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 06:01:05 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [] 06:10:58 npe [n=npe@ip-81-11-207-249.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #scheme 06:16:18 Daemmerung: ping 06:54:23 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-THREE-SEVENTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:00:14 w00t 07:00:22 I have a skeletal forth interpreter in C 07:00:24 it is so nasty :( 07:03:21 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-93-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:05:58 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:11:35 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:12:41 arcfide [n=arcfide@h-68-166-253-135.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #scheme 07:12:59 -!- npe [n=npe@ip-81-11-207-249.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:43 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:18:58 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:22:35 AnaForth v0.01 07:29:05 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-105-126.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:10 heh :P 07:32:24 http://p.leptoquark.net/pyxy/proj/elfin.c should work on, um, x86 linux only :P 07:33:10 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-105-126.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:33:21 also a little bit lacking in control flow 07:33:25 due to me not implementing blocks yet 07:34:36 heh elfin 07:35:11 also, it's in C :P 07:35:25 I should do one in scheme that does not do the stupid compilation trick 07:41:51 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:46:28 carlos` [n=oded@93-173-148-72.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #scheme 07:48:30 how can i get in a function an abitrary number of parameters ? i want to the same function to be called with different number of parameters. 07:54:28 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 08:02:06 -!- carlos` [n=oded@93-173-148-72.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:02:18 Elly: first, the word "blocks" isn't connected with control in Forth context. 08:02:44 Elly: second, what you wrote, isn't Forth by any measure. 08:02:47 I know :P 08:02:56 it is mostly a threaded-code interpreter for a stack language 08:03:03 which happens to look a bit like forth syntactically 08:03:06 Elly: third, you should probably use intptr_t 08:03:23 To me it doesn't look like Forth. 08:03:25 if you say 'for portability' I'll point you at the function full of hardcoded ia32 instructions 08:04:03 I looked through it. 08:04:14 I think the term 'blocks' comes from factor instead of forth... that's how I think of the [ ] things that 'if' expects on the stack 08:04:28 Factor isn't Forth in any way. 08:04:37 it's not? I thought they were quite similar 08:04:53 Even more I don't remeber a line of Forth from its author for 7-9 years. 08:05:14 They are quite different. 08:05:43 oh, I just looked at some example Forth... indeed, I'm actually implementing something more like Factor 08:05:49 Factor has a lot of Forth qualities. 08:06:04 Name them. 08:06:05 factor's if looks like [ else-block ... ] [ then-block ... ] cond if 08:06:26 Write Forth conditional and compare. 08:06:37 stack-based, dictionary of words, ':' -> ';' compilation? 08:06:41 I think forth has all of those 08:06:58 ASau: The whole syntax, use of stack, etc 08:07:03 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:07:16 Quadrescence: write Forth conditional here, please. 08:07:19 Same with llops. 08:07:21 loops. 08:07:35 PROVE it. 08:07:35 ASau: I don't know Forth. 08:07:57 Then don't assert there's so close similarity. 08:07:58 prove that Quadrescence doesn't know forth? 08:08:00 oO 08:08:06 ASau: why do you say they are so different? 08:08:10 ASau: I can make assertions. 08:08:17 By your measure Algol and Haskell are close. 08:08:45 Both use similar infix syntax and "[]" to deal with arrays. 08:09:07 But both don't do evaluations via the stack 08:09:13 syntax is not a measure of closeness, semantics are 08:09:30 their evaluation models (algol/haskell) are different 08:09:36 That's implementation issue. 08:09:49 Evaluation models of Forth and Factor differ. 08:09:49 forth/factor -- they're not so different 08:09:54 Stack usage differs. 08:10:01 how? 08:10:16 Factor does use more "advanced" constructs, like combinators and macros and stuff. 08:10:22 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:10:37 And it's bad practice to use lots of stack manipulating words like in Forth. 08:10:48 You don't create anonymous execution tokens in run time in Forth. 08:11:17 what does 'if' do, then? 08:11:42 It simply jumps. 08:11:50 In most implementations. 08:11:54 but it has to compile both the then and else branches before it jumps, surely? 08:12:13 "if" doesn't do that. 08:12:37 who does? 08:12:46 Compiler. 08:12:49 ASau: Do you program in Factor a lot? 08:12:51 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 08:12:57 ... forth invokes the compiler every time you execute a conditional?? 08:13:04 No. 08:13:07 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:15 Quadrescence: I program Forth longer than Factor exists. 08:13:23 I must not be understanding this properly, then 08:13:29 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:13:36 when forth sees 'if', what does it do? 08:13:57 Traditional implementation compiles conditional branch. 08:13:57 ASau: Ah. I was going to possibly do some core development for Factor's VM. 08:14:07 conditional branch to what? 08:14:23 Do you know how single-pass assembler works? 08:14:26 yes 08:14:40 but you said that forth doesn't compile the then and else branches before it jumps 08:14:46 What does it do with jump ahead? 08:14:56 I didn't say that. 08:14:57 leave a marker and patch it later 08:15:04 Reread my words and think over them. 08:15:26 Same do traditional Forth implementatinons. 08:15:33 ASau: What's your opinion of Forth? 08:16:18 It may really be biased, so why do you want it? 08:16:38 you said 'if doesn't do that'; if I type 'if drop 5 else 1 - then' into forth, how does the interpreter know not to execute 'drop 5' immediately without 'if' doing something special? 08:17:20 Well, maybe I should ask what you like about it comparatively (as in, why you would use it or not use it instead of another lang). 08:17:23 Traditional implementation interpretes it _word_by_word_ in both states. 08:17:59 is 'if' implemented by switching to compilation mode like ':' does? 08:18:16 and then emitting a conditional branch to the resulting compiled code? 08:18:36 Quadrescence: I can make it have quite another syntax and semantics than originally. 08:18:56 The latter isn't possible with any other language I know. 08:19:11 Elly: no, "if" doesn't change state. 08:19:42 Elly: your example is interpreted this way in compile state: 08:20:25 "if" is immediate, run it. It compiles in conditional branch ahead and remembers position to patch on the (control) stack. 08:20:50 "drop" is regular, compile xt. 08:20:53 how is my example interpreted in run state? 08:21:01 I can understand how it works in compile state 08:21:02 "5" is literal, compile literal. 08:21:31 "else" is immediate, run it. It compiles uncoditional branch ahead and patches "if" branch. 08:21:58 "1" and "-" are regular words. Compile them. 08:22:30 "then" is immediate, run it. It resolves branch left by "if" or "else" or whatever else. 08:22:52 In interpreted state the whole expression may have no sense. 08:23:08 hm... you mean 'if' can't be interpreted directly? 08:23:12 This is traditional behaviour and allowed by standard. 08:23:13 I guess that makes sense, actually 08:23:14 Yes. 08:23:31 I suppose what I want to write is closer to a factor interpreter, then 08:24:16 except first I need to rewrite it to make it not ugly :P 08:24:29 now I know that the basic technique for generating subroutine-threaded code works though 08:24:37 Quadrescence: in particular, I made Forth run various polls "between words" and signal timeouts. 08:25:13 Which gave me synchronous signals, thing you don't have anywhere, 08:25:18 ASau: That's interesting. I've thought about learning Forth in depth. 08:25:20 unless you have _special_ support for that. 08:25:49 Of course, I can do cooperative multitasking almost orthogonal. 08:26:01 ASau: wow, that's cool 08:26:05 how does one make forth do that? 08:27:04 You just embed task switching into loops. 08:27:25 Thus you have implicit critical sections. 08:27:36 You can vary it any way you like or can. 08:28:19 does one have to redefine ':' or something to do that? 08:28:35 Thus it looks like true multitasking: you are to declare 08:28:35 critical sections instead of task switch points like you _have_ 08:28:35 to in other languages. 08:28:47 I redefined ":" too. 08:30:51 interesting 08:31:09 I am mostly interested in factor because I want a language that can be implemented in not much code to be a kernel debugger 08:31:28 Wrong reasoning. 08:31:57 Forth requires less coding. 08:32:26 hm 08:32:37 I know a bit of factor and no forth at all 08:32:49 what's a good forth implementation? 08:32:59 Good for what purpose? 08:33:18 learning forth 08:33:35 If you want to learn, it is Gforth. 08:34:07 scheme > forth 08:34:26 geckosen1tor: I don't want a scheme interpreter in kernel space though :) 08:34:38 I have yet to see any hardware driver in Scheme. 08:35:23 is there a way to insert literal assembly into the generated code in forth? 08:35:39 Implementation dependent. 08:35:46 makes sense 08:35:55 Traditional implementations allow that. 08:36:15 what makes an implementation traditional? 08:36:49 Tradition. 08:36:52 :P 08:36:58 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 08:37:07 I meant what do they do differently from nontraditional ones? 08:38:11 Usually they compile into ITC and DTC. 08:38:30 And use linked list based dictionary. 08:39:07 hm 08:39:17 wikipedia says that ANS Forth has anonymous execution tokens with :NONAME 08:39:32 True. 08:39:40 Elly: I do 08:40:02 I want as little code in kernel space as possible, but I also want a debugger there :P 08:40:09 maybe you should just compile scheme to forth 08:40:25 that doesn't help me get an interactive debugger 08:40:29 It is easier to implement Scheme in Forth then. 08:40:40 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 08:41:55 yikes, gforth is huge 08:42:07 is there an implementation which is smaller and easier to understand? 08:42:21 FICL, pForth. 08:43:12 I want to just "think" and have the computer understand it 08:43:30 That's boring. 08:43:39 What? 08:43:47 Thinking -> computer understanding 08:44:10 as soon as you do that, geckosen1tor, you will discover that your understanding of the problem is incomplete :) 08:48:59 In my opinion, Forth is very good substitute for C in data acquision. 08:49:09 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-254-128.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 08:49:28 Writing all those data marshalling code is boring in any language, 08:49:36 -!- mike is now known as Guest87011 08:49:41 *Elly* has never done low-level work in anything but C 08:49:45 well, and assembly 08:49:56 and with Forth is amusing sometimes. 08:50:00 ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 08:51:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:51:08 At least it makes "ntohs" and moving blocks easier. 08:52:22 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 08:52:44 hm, ficl is 18,000 lines of code altogether 08:52:59 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:06 *ASau* wrote netflow 5 and 9 parsers and RT audio i/o in Forth. 08:54:14 Unfortunatly John Sadler got lost. :( 08:54:43 Maybe I should write him again and ask about his FICL plans again. 08:55:06 FICL seems to have last updated in 2003 08:56:13 That's probable. 08:56:45 4.0.31 is the last version. 08:57:39 Alright, I'm off line. 08:57:41 HAND 08:57:45 I should go to sleep 09:00:51 mejja 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13:31:15 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.165.43] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:34:20 -!- higepon615 [n=taro@FL1-118-109-126-100.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:37:40 npe [n=npe@cust201-75.dsl.versadsl.be] has joined #scheme 13:41:03 -!- rule0 [n=rule0@85.103.36.143] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:45:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Off!"] 13:53:20 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 13:55:04 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 14:13:40 -!- npe [n=npe@cust201-75.dsl.versadsl.be] has quit [] 14:15:42 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:23:32 eli: Zzzz 14:24:11 Daemmerung: Coninue zzz-ing -- my problem is solved, I think. 14:24:47 Will do. 14:25:05 *Daemmerung* hears his wife making coffee, stumbles off to find it 14:27:08 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFC9A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:28:40 Hey! "Zzzz" sounds like a good idea 14:28:44 *offby1* tries it out 14:34:16 xwl [n=user@114.246.69.231] has joined #scheme 14:51:59 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:56:01 npe [n=npe@108.192-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be] has joined #scheme 14:56:06 luz [n=davids@189.122.121.232] has joined #scheme 15:18:44 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:24:43 -!- elderK [n=zk@222-152-93-13.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:50 -!- npe [n=npe@108.192-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:06 npe [n=npe@108.192-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be] has joined #scheme 15:36:09 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 15:36:27 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-134-0-100.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:53:55 araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 16:11:11 dean [n=dean@adsl-75-16-104-230.dsl.crchtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:11:11 Hello 16:11:15 Hi 16:13:06 I can't compile mit scheme 16:13:30 I am on Intel Pentium D 16:15:27 OS? 16:15:29 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 16:15:40 Ubuntu Linux 16:15:49 x86-64 might be the problem 16:16:14 I tried ./configure --enable-native-code= c, svm, and i386 though 16:16:22 Does x86-64 Linux have a 32-bit mode? Perhaps you could build for that. 16:16:25 Right. You can only built the C back end on x86_64 16:17:17 There should be a way to get a 32-bit exe 16:18:23 -!- xwl``` [n=user@114.246.69.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:24 -m32 16:18:29 in gcc, right? 16:18:35 -!- xwl [n=user@114.246.69.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:00 No. 16:19:22 that doesn't work either? 16:20:58 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:35 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:21:38 oh well 16:21:50 -!- dean [n=dean@adsl-75-16-104-230.dsl.crchtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:23:27 Fetch a pre compiled scheme for 386: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mit-scheme/snapshot.pkg/20090107/ 16:31:57 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 16:32:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-187.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:43:09 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65592@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bf40cbd66d5013fb] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:43:40 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:08 elderK [n=zk@222-152-98-210.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 16:47:32 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 16:54:41 TravisD [n=user@S01060007e9c4da34.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 16:57:07 I've been working through SICP, and I'm thoroughly impressed with Scheme so far. I am curious, though, about only using the list-based representations of data. Suppose I have a problem which requires me to quickly look up some value by an index (where in procedural programming languages we would use an array or some array based representation). Is there some way to cope with the linear time searching required for a list? Do we turn to 16:57:07 tree-based structures and live with the log( n ) time? 16:57:53 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:18 Most scheme implementations have other datatypes like hash tables and arrays. Vectors are the standardized O(1) access datatype 17:00:44 If we could get away with it, we'd use only lists, though ;) 17:01:04 Haha :) Okay! I was just curious 17:01:11 TravisD: (assoc 'a '((a 1) (b 2) (c 3))) ; => (a 1) 17:01:13 a linear time increase in speed could be crippling to a lot of algorithms 17:01:27 yep 17:01:49 Is that covered in SICP? 17:02:06 "However, the average lookup time for an association list is linear in the number of associations." 17:02:11 doh! 17:02:23 Judofyr: Of course, it's a list! 17:02:24 Judofyr: haha 17:03:07 TravisD: Vectors are mentioned in SICP, iirc 17:03:09 some implementations may optimize it though (or am I completely wrong?) 17:03:31 I doubt it, since it's still a list 17:03:42 Judofyr: They would have to represent it differently somehow, instead of a list of pairs 17:03:55 ie. a binary search tree, or something ;) 17:03:56 If you want fast lookups, use hashtables 17:04:39 hash tables are one of those things that I've avoided until now on principle, haha. They are neat, though 17:06:05 I'm doing some work on Predictive Search Distributions (to focus local searches on parametric combinatorial optimization problems). I also just started learning scheme--- I'm trying to decide if its a language I would like to work with 17:07:10 i heard at the lisp conference earlier last month that alist works better than hashtable for up to 50 associations 17:07:16 alist or plist 17:07:24 duncanm: Doesn't surprise me 17:07:32 sjamaan: yeah 17:07:57 As always, pick your data structures wisely, and tune them to your app 17:08:16 duncanm: Some more complicated data structures have some fixed overhead, which may be more than the running time of naive algorithms on smaller input 17:08:27 of course 17:09:01 That's probably true of most pairs of naive-clever algorithms actually, haha 17:10:15 :) 17:10:16 anyways, thanks for the clarification :) 17:10:42 np 17:11:21 I was hoping that Scheme did something really fancy to identify when lists were being used as vectors, and then translate the linear time search to a constant time lookup 17:11:25 :P 17:12:08 The day someone invents that, it will :) 17:12:20 hahaha 17:12:23 unlikely :P 17:12:28 right 17:12:32 (that it will be invented, I mean) 17:12:44 ... not that if it were invented that scheme would use it. That is very reasonable haha 17:12:51 :) 17:13:56 I actually don't really see any reason why it would be impossible, though 17:14:16 You could probably come up with something that would optimize a good portion of them anyways. 17:14:23 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:14:55 It's hard, because what happens when someone conses something onto any random part of that list? 17:15:03 You'd have to break up the vector, or make a copy of that part 17:15:18 And what happens when then someone proceeds to use set-car! or set-cdr! on some pair in that list? 17:16:37 Suppose you could identify that once a list was created that the user only performs lookups, and that they all find the nth element. lol 17:17:23 Anyways, I have to go. This channel is delightful, though, and I will likely be back sometime 17:17:23 Well, hard != impossible 17:17:31 ok, we'll see you later! 17:17:39 thanks again 17:17:39 cya 17:17:45 -!- TravisD [n=user@S01060007e9c4da34.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:02 jah [n=jah@235.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 17:29:47 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:40:24 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:35 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:51:33 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:52:13 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:52:14 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:04 -!- saccade_ 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has quit ["Leaving."] 20:57:02 -!- benny` is now known as benny 21:11:39 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-93-164.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:55 jao [n=jao@126.Red-83-33-182.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:19:19 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:24:47 -!- mmc [n=mima@cs131216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:44 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #scheme 21:35:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:22 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:43:20 Hey everyone, how's it going? 21:43:30 pretty good 21:43:35 reading about modalities for an assignment 21:44:16 -!- davidad [n=me@RANDOM-THREE-SEVENTY-SEVEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:39 I'm only really familiar with MIT Scheme and Chez, and I was wondering if anyone could tell me about how the differences in normal variable swapping algorithms are compiled compared to XOR swapping in C based Schemes? 21:45:33 I noticed that in some tests, the XOR swapping isn't faster because of the checks that Chez Scheme usually does and the data structures it uses, but I was wondering if perhaps a C based Scheme would compile this down to something different? 21:49:51 why are you using xor swapping? 21:49:55 to save registers? 21:51:40 Neh, I am not using it, since it doesn't help the speed in my application that I am using, and makes it worse, but I was just curious about whether a Scheme would or could be expected to optimize XOR swapping over normal cases. I would expect this to not be the case, but maybe it could? 21:52:06 This is a pure curiosity regarding whether a compiler would recognize this form in Scheme or not. 21:53:04 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:54:24 some processors have a swap opcode 21:54:24 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:43 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:56:01 -!- sepult [n=sepult@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 21:56:49 sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:01:34 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:04:59 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:06:49 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-11-242.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-0-239.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #scheme 22:18:22 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit ["leaving"] 22:19:28 -!- sepult [n=user@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:29 Holy cow, swapping without a temporary variable? That's awesome! 22:35:32 I mean, that it can be done at all. 22:36:03 It's a neat little trick, but in practice, I think that it often doesn't help unless you *really* know exactly when to use it. 22:36:32 In Scheme, in fact, I have found no place or instance where it makes the code faster. 22:36:42 Though this was just random testing in my real applications. 22:36:54 ... and it must be done in an atomic way -- below the GC level. 22:37:10 (Either the xor trick or the subtraction trick.) 22:37:24 I don't know if it would be much faster, just if you have limited registers or something. 22:37:37 no access to RAM etc 22:37:45 Normally I rely on my compiler to do a mostly right thing when it comes to handling my registers. ;-) 22:38:06 But I have someone who is interested in making a case fo rusing Scheme in embedded systems for which such things could be interesting. 22:39:21 It's an interesting algorithm anyway. XOR is such a fascinating operation. 22:39:22 eli: Does PLT Scheme even pretend to play at that level? 22:39:48 synx: note that subtraction can be used just the same. 22:39:58 arcfide: I don't know what you mean by "play at that levele." 22:40:02 s/e// 22:41:09 subtraction could have a carry problem though, couldn't it? 22:41:28 eli: finding operations that it could possibly "ameliorate" by reducing them to atomic operations at a processor or sub-GC level? 22:41:40 eli: and then doing it? 22:42:57 anything can "play" at that level. It just has to emulate a processor. It's actually /being/ at that level that's difficult. 22:43:18 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:57 arcfide: I suppose that the JIT is doing a bunch of such games, though I don't care that much about the details... 22:44:14 (I could care, but that would be dangerous to Getting Things Done.) 22:46:09 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has joined #scheme 22:47:08 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 22:47:55 "Your huge staying device won't leave any free space in her hole." 22:48:13 How long should I suffer the endless stream of stupid paraphrases? 22:48:26 please, this is a family channel 22:48:34 Where are you getting this endless stream? 22:48:39 neilv: ooh, kinky 22:49:44 neilv: Get your mind out of the gutter. :-) 22:49:49 Isn't the viagra/whatever market supposed to hold itself pretty well, without much advertising? 22:49:51 s/mind/head/ 22:50:29 eli: Sure, but it's the fake enhancers that need advertising. 22:50:30 Yeah it keeps itself pretty firm eli. 22:51:54 I actually look at the web page -- it's the same crap, with the viagras and the whatevers. 22:52:20 And for some reason it always says that it's a "canadian pharmacy" or something. 23:03:02 Increase your swap space with our h3rb@l f0rmul@! 23:03:28 -!- Arelius_ is now known as Arelius 23:10:29 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:11:39 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [Read error: 13 (Permission denied)] 23:12:19 -!- Guest87011 [n=m@dslb-088-066-254-128.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:18:21 Daemmerung: So what I wanted to ask you yesterday was about making an application run in "Kiosk Mode" -- do you know anything about these things? 23:18:36 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.184.8] has joined #scheme 23:19:18 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:19:57 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:27 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:28:26 eli: Not to any real depth. There's a registry key that basically says, spawn app such-and-such instead of explorer.exe. Now you know as much as I do. 23:29:17 Also, there's another registry key that says, when rebooted autologon with such-and-such account credentials. 23:31:03 Daemmerung: Yeah, I saw these things -- but I don't have control over the machines at that level... 23:31:09 ...maybe that should have been taskman.exe instead of explorer.exe. 23:31:29 write a bootloader eli 23:31:59 Anyway, I found some "winlock.dll" tool that does things like disabling alt+tab and control+alt+del, and hide the taskbar etc. 23:32:12 synx: I need a real solution. 23:32:54 eli: Are you talking about Windows Kiosking mode? 23:33:33 eli: kind of short on those, sorry :) 23:33:34 Where you can boot up, login and get into a shell that doesn't let you do anything but the application you want? 23:33:52 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.191.71] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:11 I hate those stupid things myself. They're always so locked down. 23:34:59 You can't use any programs you brought with you for word processing or coding or whatnot, yet somehow they always make sure you can spend hours playing stupid Internet games with them. 23:35:09 eli: What is your ultimate goal? (Well, penultimate goal. We'll assume "World Domination" for the ultimate.) 23:35:43 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:37:39 arcfide: Yes, but without the booting part -- so I managed to get an application set things up to make itself exclusive. 23:37:51 I just posted some nasty to CLS. Hehe...SYNTAX-CASE abhorance FTW. 23:38:22 You could try a LiveCD eli... 23:38:26 Daemmerung: I'm going to finally get to do something I wanted for a while -- make students do a test on computers instead of on papers. 23:38:29 elf: You around? 23:38:44 eli: you are cruel. 23:38:50 Daemmerung: So I need to deal with locking down the obvious things that should be locked down during a test. 23:38:57 eli: unless this is a computer programming test? 23:39:03 arcfide: Why? It's a good thing for the students too. 23:39:26 eli: Unless I am doing something that requires interactive testing of the machine, I usually prefer to take my tests on paper, without any doubt. 23:39:43 You should introduce deliberate security flaws in your system eli, and only give students a passing score if they hack their way in. :3 23:39:48 One thing is that typing is much more efficient than writing (for most people at least), and it is *much* more efficient for grading to not deal with horrible hand writing. 23:40:07 eli: Hehe, you don't expect your students to have legible hand-writing? ;-) 23:40:18 *arcfide* chuckles. 23:40:36 arcfide: No. I have plenty of experience with bad hand writing. 23:40:45 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:40:46 Including my own, when grading. 23:40:47 I used to think that computers were more efficient than paper. 23:40:54 But then I considered how much paper one could buy with $2000 and I'm... not so sure at this point. 23:41:22 arcfide pasted "Feel like puking? CLS Problem Solution" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78425 23:41:53 Another thing is that the whole class materials are now at about half of a tree per student. That's about 30-35 trees saved per semester. 23:42:28 But feel free (arcfide/synx) to point at any advantages that you think paper might have. 23:43:13 I'd say paper's cheaper as far as materials go, but if everyone already has computers you may as well use them. 23:43:22 synx: BTW, I looked at several livecd tools, for windows, and a few linux distributions. Making an application turn itself into kiosk-mode turned out to be *much* easyer. 23:43:29 paper is cheaper? 23:43:43 eli: speaking personally, I know that unless the computer is actually a part of the test (like programming) then reading on a screen creates a strain for me which really harms my test taking abilities. Also, the process of writing is relaxing for me, which helps me during tests. I expect students to write legibly, so I don't have that problem. I also find it more useful when I have to do graphs. 23:43:54 Yeah like I said $2000 worth of paper, er, per student is a lot. 23:44:11 The cost for an on-computer exam in this case is exactly $0 -- it's only bandwidth, and it's all internal. 23:44:29 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:31 Also, the constant typing of other people can distract me at times. Pen noise is much quieter, in general. 23:45:22 Well, it's a nice lab -- with good keyboards; graphs and formulas are absolutely not necessary in a PL class; and I don't plan to let them actually run code at this point. 23:45:29 Right eli, you already wasted all those resources on the computers, so using paper would just be an additional cost on top of that. 23:45:45 It might be a cute extension in the future, but the problem then is that the exam will need to be harder as a result. 23:46:02 arcfide: sad thing is, they design computer keyboards to deliberately click, on the notion it's needed to let us know the key was pressed. 23:46:12 all it does is give you RMS though 23:46:22 synx: and how exacly do you conclude that I *wasted* resources on computers? 23:46:30 synx: I have no problem with that, I just do not think it helps the students concentrate when taking a stressful exam. 23:46:56 I want one of those silicone keyboards that you just tap on. :3 23:46:57 eli: The only other thing I have against computers is that I don't think the students have to think as hard. 23:47:08 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.184.8] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:25 eli: Well, you, whoever you're working for, their ancestors I dunno. SOMEONE spent all that time and trouble. 23:47:27 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@92.36.184.8] has joined #scheme 23:47:39 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:48:04 eli: typing is lazy compared to writing things down, and I think it encourages more thought if the student has to write essays on paper, with pen, and no eraser. On the other hand, if this hasn't been the norm throughout, your students may not be...prepared for that. 23:48:08 They sure could think as hard arcfide it's just they spend all their time playing stupid Internet casino games. 23:48:20 arcfide: But see the above -- they basically get to use them for editing they submission and reading course materials -- they don't get any other help from using a computer -- not even a calculator. 23:48:41 eli: The *biggest* complaint is the diffulty reading the computer screens compared to the tests. If I had the questions on paper and had scratch paper by me, then I wouldn't mind as much. 23:49:01 eli: right, I was just referencing the act of having an eraser on the computer. 23:49:02 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-24-242.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:49:07 I end up getting actually sloppier when writing by hand, because I'm not used to it, and because when writing I have to pay attention to getting the letter shapes correct and not doodling in the margins. 23:49:21 Ick...that's a terrible sentence that doesn't make strict sense. 23:49:32 abstract computer characters are much clearer in my opinion. Otherwise, what really is the difference between r and n? 23:49:38 arcfide: For some reason, students usually like the editing feature of pencils. (Weird for me, because I'm used to using pens in exams.) 23:50:27 eli: Right, they do, and most people allow it, but in my experience, if the students are forced and expected to write well from start to finish with pens, without erasers, and to use paper, then I think it helps overall. On the other hand, if they haven't done this, it could be bad to expect them to do so on the test alone. 23:50:29 And BTW, bad hand-writing is not a question, it's a fact of life. Proven to me in person in many semesters. 23:50:37 I don't like pencils because they smear too easy... 23:50:45 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@adsl-89-132-0-239.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:50:46 Gets all over your hands. 23:51:09 eli: it is a fact, but when I grade I have a policy (which is supported here) that bad handwriting that you can't read gets no credit for anything that is lot properly legible. 23:51:20 You really want to force students to never ever make any typos arcfide, you need to force them to work on typewriters. 23:51:59 At least then you aren't persecuting them for having shaky hands. 23:52:00 eli: I agree that it is a pain to grade bad handwriting. 23:52:07 synx: re the spending, what you said is complete bullshit. This is what we like to call "a university" -- it spends some resources to give people "an education". In the specific case of a CS department the resources spent are ridiculously small in comparison to other schools. So please save me the trolls. 23:52:37 I mean maybe you teach a class on how to hold your hand steady. I don't know. 23:53:15 eli: I guess you could say that when I teach things, I emphasize an attention to correctness, and forcing pen use is one way of getting their minds in that frame. *shrug* I wouldn't say it's the only way by a long shot, but it's the one I like. 23:53:44 arcfide: IME, such policies are *always* there (explicitly, in the course policies), and I end up *never* using them. Somehow the idea of giving a student a bad grade because of bad hand-writing seems very wrong to me. Probably because I was a notoriously bad hand-writer (and then I stopped writing almost completely). 23:54:19 arcfide: Oooh, I have many *many* ways to force them to focus on correctness. It *is* a PL class... 23:54:20 eli: Well, if I had bad handwriting, I wouldn't force the students to put up with my handwriting and I not put up with theirs: but I don't, and so I don't. ;-) 23:54:30 eli: I'm sure you do. 23:54:38 eli: I'm not saying CS is particularly worse than anywhere else. Most everything we do is incredibly wasteful! 23:55:09 synx: In the case of CS, most things we do is so incredibly efficient, that the question is not there. 23:55:17 I'm just saying that the amount of paper it takes to add up to one computer is an intimidating figure. 23:55:47 eli: When we teach the C211 class here at IU, one of the biggest problems we have with students is when they want to jump straight to writing code before they even think about the problem. 23:55:50 synx: The amount of paper wasted in an average university is much more intimidating -- that I can guarantee. 23:56:06 They then just hack out code until it compiles, and then they hack it some more until it passes some minor test cases. 23:56:24 arcfide: Yeah, I know -- I have brutal ways to deal with that... 23:56:27 heheh. 23:56:51 arcfide: For example, in the first HW, I make the HW server run tests against your code, and accept the submission only if it passes all of my tests. 23:57:02 computers have a large up front cost, and are expensive to dispose of. During their use they function as high wattage heating elements that occasionally throw out a logical instruction. 23:57:20 We have some brutals methods for doing that too. ;-) But, on a test, I think it's the same thing, having a terminal on which you can write code and then erase easily will encourage that: on the other hand, maybe that's a good way to test them, to see whether they jump right to the computer without thinking first. ;-) 23:57:44 And I tell them about it -- I make it explicit that they must write code that works to be able to submit, which means that grading for that homework is done *only* on style (from the design, through the comments, to indentation and spacing). 23:57:50 My guess would be any part of a university that studies automobiles is what uses the most resources... 23:58:01 We force them to write out all their thoughts on paper, in code and in prose, first, and only after we review it can they go to the computer. 23:59:00 Honestly arcfide... that sounds like a waste of time 23:59:04 We do some testing of their code when they submit it, but we want them to also write their own test cases, so we don't make them explicit. 23:59:06 synx: hardly. 23:59:24 We want them to feel the pain of missing test cases and to work on better methodologies. 23:59:44 arcfide: do you require them to submit their thoughts written in Swahili too? Because that would surely make sure they know what they're talking about. 23:59:54 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has left #scheme