00:01:52 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-SEVEN-FIFTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:02:05 Oh well. 00:04:14 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@vpn1032.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:04:20 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF37A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 00:05:44 gnomon, I think I am justified in blaming you for how silly I feel right now. 00:05:50 I just checked my own blag. 00:07:21 *eli* sniggers 00:08:41 Riastradh, that is an accusation against which I can hardly mount a convincing defense. Here is your silly hat. 00:09:00 *gnomon* hands Riastradh a rubber chicken 00:11:44 *Riastradh* puts the rubber chicken on his head and proceeds to distribute trousers. 00:16:50 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF37A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:40 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF344.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:22:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:22 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-111.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:29 Hey everyone. 00:24:39 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:26:14 -!- Deformative [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:26:35 Deformative [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has joined #scheme 00:41:20 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:45:36 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:45:39 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:03 Boo. 00:51:39 ARGH 00:57:12 synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-239-245.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:05 ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.192.15] has joined #scheme 01:18:27 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 01:20:53 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 01:26:44 Boo, ARGH? Sounds like quite the time over there. 01:27:10 Over here it's more like *heavy sigh*. 01:27:32 The sighing happened earlier when I read the documentation for Chicken 4's macros and modules. 01:27:56 LOL 01:28:05 What's the verdict? 01:28:25 Was it just the documentation or was it the actual system. 01:28:26 ? 01:28:37 I presume the documentation accurately reflects the implementation. 01:28:56 This is, naturally, an absurd presumption, but I was only idly curious to see how it turned out. 01:29:45 So...not so good, huh? 01:30:41 I saw the announcement, saw that they went for explicit renaming macros, and noticed IrRegex usage, but for me it was just, "Eh...okay, yeah, sure, but why'd it take so long to get SYNTAX-RULES?" 01:31:27 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:31:50 Felix for a long time didn't believe in committing to a particular macro or module system, and then he made many mistakes in an attempt to commit. 01:32:54 Hehe, I can kind of understand that, there are people here at IU that still refuse to use SYNTAX-CASE and its relatives. 01:33:18 But I would think that SYNTAX-RULES was at least a no-brainer from a standards perspective. 01:33:29 So it is. 01:33:46 Did Chicken have SYNTAX-RULES before version 4? 01:33:48 arcfide: IU? 01:33:48 That's a slightly different issue. Implementing SYNTAX-RULES means committing to a particular implementation of hygiene. 01:34:01 ventonegro: Indiana University - Bloomington 01:34:07 That is, implementing SYNTAX-RULES in the core. 01:34:09 arcfide: oh 01:34:12 Aaah. 01:34:21 arcfide: In (< Chicken 4), you could install any of various macroexpanders, but no syntax-rules in the core. 01:34:40 Now, syntax-rules and explicit renaming is in the ccore, and no hooks for anything else. 01:34:54 This is not exactly accurate, because the core could provide several (say, configure-time) options, but that would require extra complexity in the core. 01:34:56 ventonergo: Relavent here because Kent Dybvig (SYNTAX-CASE) is a Professor there, and most people there agree with his approach to Macros, excepting some interesting Professors who don't like it much, despite the pressure there to use it. 01:35:15 I see. 01:35:47 So, you could use different expanders to expand your code, but these weren't supported at the lowest level? 01:35:48 I ought to be a little fairer to Chicken in my earlier assertions. It is an improvement that SYNTAX-RULES is available by default in Chicken. 01:36:27 arcfide: I see. 01:36:46 So, if someone were to attempt to port something that uses SYNTAX-CASE to Chicken, it wouldn't be trivial with Version 4? 01:37:03 They would instead have to convert them to Explicit Renaming Macros? 01:37:07 Yes, having SYNTAX-RULES is nice. Gambit still needs the portable SYNTAX-CASE. 01:37:34 Actually, ever since Aziz took over Psyntax, has it improved? 01:37:49 (What is with the random upcasing of letters, arcfide?) 01:37:58 Riastradh: Force of habit. 01:39:04 What habit? It's not habit of any native English writer to write uppercase letters where you're writing them. If you were a recent transplant from Germany, new to English, it would be reasonable, but I don't think you qualify for that. 01:39:14 arcfide: yes, to both questions (nothing in the core in older Chickens, no support at all for syntax-case in Chicken 4) 01:39:35 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 01:39:44 Riastradh: It was a habit I developed after reading many older texts that followed this approach, which is not favored in modern English. 01:40:09 Sometimes it comes out if I am writing without focusing too hard on what I am writing. 01:41:18 Chicken's explicit renaming lacks some critical details that would be necessary to implement SYNTAX-CASE and the related API. It is probably possible to implement SYNTAX-CASE on top of, say, riaxpander. 01:42:16 Riastradh: No one has taken to using your expander in a Scheme implementation, have they? Is it robust enough for this, or was it designed only with simplicity in mind? 01:42:55 How many new Scheme implementations have been made since I wrote riaxpander by someone who is more interested in understanding the macro expansion process than in providing support for SYNTAX-CASE to users? 01:43:13 *arcfide* shrugs. 01:43:14 I believe that crunch uses it, Riastradh. 01:44:48 I have occasionally heard from folks with questions about riaxpander that suggested their use in Scheme implementations, but I haven't heard about the results thereof. 01:44:59 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:45:03 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [] 01:45:07 Crunch? 01:46:08 A Chicken egg that generates C++ code for a subset of Scheme with HM typing and no allocation. 01:46:27 I see. 01:46:39 Basically so you can write C modules for Chicken in Chicken 01:46:56 It understands a subset of tinyclos,, too. 01:47:09 Anyway, riaxpander was available in Chicken for some time. 01:47:41 Yes. 01:47:58 Qua run-time expander, I imagine it will be available again soon, though not embeddable in Chicken. 01:52:03 Ah, I was wrong; crunch uses alexpander. 01:52:50 Felix, btw, has been known to describe syntax-case as "politically correct macros". I'm not plugged in enough to know exactly what he means by that, but it certainly isn't favorable. 01:53:28 Politically correct macros? 01:53:47 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 01:54:00 I'd like to see the reference on that once. :-) Sounds quite, interesting. 01:54:14 liberals are less hygienic? 01:54:52 raikov` [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 01:56:59 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@ludios.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:49 elderK [n=zk@122-57-254-27.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:05:53 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:08:36 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:44 -!- raikov` [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 02:08:51 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 02:10:13 how much is chez? 02:11:02 If you must ask, you can't afford it. 02:11:19 *jcowan* laughs. 02:11:31 Write to info@scheme.com if you really want to know. 02:11:38 yeah, yeah... 02:12:00 you're paying for them to own the prestigious scheme.com domain name 02:13:02 there are few implementations with native threading around 02:14:31 ventonegro: I'll bet if you can parallelize and multi-thread Chez's Garbage Collector, you'll get a copy of Chez for free. ;-) 02:15:02 heh 02:17:54 ventonegro: Chez Scheme doesn't cost that much, but it's certainly more than "free." 02:18:23 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:18:29 Are you a university, ventonegro, or a sufficiently large corporation? 02:18:38 Riastradh: neither 02:18:57 ventonegro: Do you stand to profit from Scheme development? 02:19:05 In a monetary sense. 02:19:18 but I am happy to hear that large corporations buy scheme compilers 02:19:43 Not `buy Scheme compilers' but `*can* buy a licence to use Chez'. 02:19:44 arcfide: not at the moment. But I hope so in the future 02:19:53 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #scheme 02:20:12 *arcfide* chuckles. 02:20:18 Ever the skeptic. 02:20:22 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:20:29 Moin folks. 02:20:35 arcfide: :) 02:20:59 i used to have a setup that ran a scheme code file through 12 different scheme implementations. that would be convenient right now for determining who's picked up particular r6rs-isms 02:21:51 elderK: 02:21:57 elderK: hello 02:22:16 :) ello 02:22:55 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:26 I suppose the price depends on what you want to do with it, too. 02:24:06 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:24:37 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25:12 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:25:42 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:51 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@58.49.18.155] has joined #scheme 02:26:08 jcowan: Very much so. 02:26:15 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26:36 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:23 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.141.201] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:27:33 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:27:46 I have decided, as a first (or second) step in my Blesity implementation to make a CL implementation first. 02:28:11 Oh God, WHY?! 02:28:19 Bootstrapping. 02:28:19 just kidding :) 02:28:36 what's Blesity? 02:28:38 mmicire [i=mmicire@binaryden.net] has joined #scheme 02:28:39 My original idea was to write it in Chicken, but it'll be too much pain. 02:28:53 a compiler? 02:28:55 Blesity is my current pet project, a compiler for ISLisp that generates Java. 02:29:06 hmm... 02:29:51 ISLisp is itself an interesting experiment (in addition to being an ISO standard) 02:30:05 it's about as minimally dynamic as any Lisp can be (typing is still dynamic) 02:30:21 jcowan: would you rather code mostly in ISLisp? 02:30:21 e.g. you have classes like CLOS, but you can't create or modify them at run time 02:30:29 I think it's the Right Thing 02:30:36 mostly self-hosting 02:30:40 I see 02:30:42 There will of course be a runtime in Java 02:30:52 but I'm going to make that fairly small 02:31:12 I may write some of the standard functions in Java as well, though 02:31:17 -!- mmicire [i=mmicire@binaryden.net] has left #scheme 02:31:27 Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:31:34 ttmrichter__ [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.243] has joined #scheme 02:31:52 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:53 generating source code or bytecode? 02:32:13 jcowan: Why java? 02:32:29 I am perplexed, jcowan. Why implement Common Lisp? 02:33:02 That sounds like immensely more trouble than you balked at earlier when I mentioned writing a trivial Scheme->C compiler and run-time system some weeks ago. 02:34:36 Oh, sorry, I was confusing 02:34:46 I meant that I'm writing an ISLisp package *in* CL 02:34:49 for bootstrapping purposes 02:34:58 Oh. 02:35:09 so that I can write the compiler in ISLisp 02:35:16 and run it on a CL implementation until it can self-host 02:35:25 good night fellow schemers 02:35:29 which will also require writing eval for ISLisp 02:35:36 -!- ventonegro [n=alex@189.100.192.15] has quit [] 02:35:43 I see. The ambiguity of English suggested ambition beyond my ambagination. 02:36:03 No, I assure you, I am not as ambaginated as all that. 02:38:21 arcfide: It already has classes, GC, and (oddly) guaranteed left-to-right evaluation of arguments 02:39:25 Yeah. Okay. 02:39:29 Sure. 02:39:32 I'll go with that. 02:41:02 Also Teh Big Ass Library 02:45:19 if you used plt-scheme, you could implement islisp as scheme macros and procedures, and then have a "#lang islisp" that you can use with drscheme and such 02:45:58 you can redefine the application syntax to do right-to-left in a few lines of code 02:46:05 er, left-to-right 02:46:34 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@58.49.18.155] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:46:42 Does plt-scheme have a lisp-2 mode? 02:46:54 oh yeah 02:47:44 i mean: oh yeah, you're right, don't use plt-scheme in that way 02:47:56 not: oh yeah, baby, you know it 02:48:23 Ah. 02:48:37 ISLisp is much closer to CL than to Scheme of any sort 02:49:24 I'm pretty sure that just saying (in-package "ISLisp") will suffice 02:49:44 where the ISLisp package does not inherit from the CL package but does import lots of specifics 02:50:09 PLT Scheme may not have a Lisp-2 mode, but you can build it fairly straightforwardly. 02:50:16 meh... 02:50:26 My ports they are broken. 02:50:28 Redefine #%APP to have the semantics you want. 02:50:52 I keep getting a segmentation fault on 'do_read_char' 02:51:23 I'm making custom ports that's probably why, but don't know what's wrong. 02:51:25 i love #%app 02:52:02 Anyhow, that all sounds like a lot more work than a simple CL package implementation 02:52:02 I wish #%app and friends were standard, or at least more widespread 02:52:22 are there any implementations other than PLT with #%app? 02:52:24 I won't even need to write eval at first, or a repl 02:52:48 p1dzkl: plt is really pushing the envelope on that kind of thing. yet another reason that i use plt primarily 02:52:51 Are you prepared to argue that they are clearly technically better than any reasonable alternatives, p1dzkl? 02:53:31 at 4am last night, i reconciled multiple values and arguments: http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2009/04/#2009-04-06 02:53:54 which is a very bad idea, but plt let me do it 02:54:39 tanguerella [i=421e6e50@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4c59880af7a10526] has joined #scheme 02:54:45 Indeed, very bad 02:54:50 you what 02:55:14 holy crap you did 02:55:33 plt is like the overly permissive parents who let you do anything 02:55:37 I'm not sure how useful it is, but why a very bad idea? 02:55:45 they'll even buy you your first drug paraphernalia 02:56:09 hey it's a glass pipe shut up 02:57:53 Hey, tanguerella. 02:58:05 I was probably the one asking. I guess having (call-with-values) on every argument is too expensive? 02:58:07 synx: you could make the scheme interpreter do it with reasonable efficiency, but it introduces new bug potential, precludes some optimizations, and complicates the semantics 02:58:35 oh, if you put it in the interpreter, it would be more efficient. this is a kludge implementation 02:58:44 Only marginally more efficient. 02:58:48 synx: because a system in which you can't tell statically how many args a function call has. 02:58:57 ...loses. 02:59:06 (Finished your sentence for you, jcowan.) 02:59:15 yes 02:59:45 neilv: That's a trick I played probably two to three times here. 03:00:00 Seems about as difficult to manage as a system in which you can't statically tell how many args it accepts, or returns. 03:00:07 Indeed 03:00:37 I thought it would be a good idea to add a number to the syntax of lambda saying how many values this function returns, to aid static compilation under CPS 03:01:01 er... well maybe...but... 03:01:03 neilv: My recent tweak on it: http://tmp.barzilay.org/x -- no need for a language module even. 03:01:22 I just don't see it as "really bad". What could go wrong? 03:01:51 synx, you can't statically discern which argument expressions correspond with which parameters. 03:02:01 For example, what does (- X) do? 03:02:23 It subtracts the values of X, I guess. 03:02:29 I thought that HB made this point somewhere, but I can't find it 03:02:38 If it's just one value that's an error. 03:02:50 No, synx. 03:03:13 X names a variable, and a variable has at most one value associated with it. 03:03:30 Oh, okay. Then it's an error, right? 03:03:44 Unary - computes additive inverses. 03:03:44 rudybot: eval (- 5) 03:03:44 No, it's not. 03:03:44 Riastradh: ; Value: -5 03:03:58 Eep, my bad then. 03:04:19 So the answer is negative whatever X is bound to. 03:04:30 Right. But what about (- (F))? 03:04:34 oh yeah, it would break some things macro writers do, too 03:09:19 That depends how many values F returns, and what those values are... 03:09:51 What's a macro 'writer'? Besides a person writing a macro... 03:11:05 If F returns (values 2 3) the answer would be -1. just 2 is -2, and just 3 is -3. 03:12:43 OK, here's a worse example: (dynamic-wind (foo) (bar)) How do you find what arguments are passed to DYNAMIC-WIND? FOO and BAR together must contribute three arguments in total, but there's no way to find out which one contributes which argument except to read all of FOO and BAR completely. 03:12:49 (call-with-values (lambda () (values 2 3)) -) 03:14:23 poppyseed [n=fran@tarkus.rh.rit.edu] has joined #scheme 03:14:26 If it was too confusing to mix positional arguments and multiple values, you could go with a sort of currying syntax? 03:15:16 (lambda ((input output) (one two)) ...) (tcp-connect...)...)... 03:15:50 (dynamic-wind (foo) (bar)) is pretty confusing, but I doubt anyone would have reason to pass two thus named functions to it, and I've seen much more confusing stuff out there. 03:16:38 (dynamic-wind (setup) (punchline)) might be a little clearer 03:17:23 It really doesn't make sense to return the initializer of dynamic wind and the procedure it's wound around both from the same function as two values. But it's about as easy to understand as say... 03:19:16 -!- duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:18 duncanm [n=duncan@a-chinaman.com] has joined #scheme 03:19:30 (call-with-values (lambda () (setup)) (lambda (a b) (call-with-values (lambda () (punchline)) (lambda (c) (dynamic-wind a b c))) 03:19:38 (apply dynamic-wind (append ((compose list setup)) ((compose list punchline)))) 03:20:52 You just wrote two distinct possibilities that differ in a very important way. 03:21:10 Oh, well maybe I wrote it wrong... they were supposed to have the same effect. 03:22:28 What sets them both apart from (DYNAMIC-WIND (SETUP) (PUNCHLINE)), though, is that they draw the reader's attention to the fact that multiple return values and lists and arguments are being used in a possibly confusing way. (DYNAMIC-WIND (SETUP) (PUNCHLINE)) should, but with neilv's macros fails to, indicate to the reader that there are two arguments being passed to DYNAMIC-WIND, the first from (SETUP) and the second from (PUNCHL 03:22:58 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:33 I don't see how that's a problem though. All the reader has to know is how many arguments the two functions return, and then they can add it up to 3. 03:27:10 Each procedure might return anywhere from zero to three values, under possibly varying circumstances. 03:27:13 https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/weird-calls.ss btw I made sure they run okay. 03:27:45 Then why are you passing them to dynamic-wind? Procedures that don't return a consistent number of values are a nightmare no matter which way you look at it! 03:28:51 It's like saying "+ must only accept 2 values, because the reader won't know how many values + accepts if it doesn't." I just don't see the problem. 03:31:06 This nightmare arises from the failure of the proposed semantics to exhibit useful local properties such as a correspondence between syntactic operand positions and semantic argument positions. 03:32:09 *Any* procedure application in which definitions for subexpressions are not completely known exhibits this nightmare. 03:32:17 That's the problem with the proposed semantics. 03:32:37 How is that correspondence useful? 03:33:06 Well sure, and if I pass a callback that doesn't accept the proper number of arguments in the end, it'll error out too. 03:33:14 Suppose you want to understand a program. 03:33:16 (define (foo x) (if x (values 1 2) 1)) would also be fun 03:33:36 Suppose you want to know where a value for some variable came from. 03:33:58 accepting and returning values, I don't see why returning values has to be so much more static. 03:34:15 If there is a single expression for this variable, it is fairly straightforward to follow a path to the value's source. 03:34:38 For example, if I write (LET ((A (FOO)) (B (BAR)) (C (BAZ))) ...), and I want to know why B has a certain value, I need only follow BAR, not FOO or BAZ (unless side effects are involved). 03:35:15 Even if side effects are involved, it is probably not necessary for me to follow FOO and BAZ until I see a specific indication in BAR that suggests that it might be affected by FOO or BAR. 03:35:18 You know what makes it hard for me to find values is when a procedure is passed from somewhere else, no matter how many values it returns. It's strong cohesion that makes it confusing to trace a variable's creation. 03:35:24 ... 03:35:30 strong coupling. dammit I will never get those right. 03:36:47 If you write (let ((a (foo)) (b (bar)) (c (baz))) ...) and (foo) returns multiple values, it'll error out anyway because you can only bind one value to one variable. 03:37:10 Allow me to summarize slightly hand-wavily. Under the proposed semantics, it takes exponentially more steps to understand a program. 03:37:35 -!- tanguerella [i=421e6e50@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4c59880af7a10526] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 03:37:41 I'd like to see a program that was so exponentially hard to understand. 03:38:08 For each procedure application, you must trace *every* subexpression, not just one, to trace the source of an argument. 03:38:17 not if you had to maintain it 03:38:46 No, because none of the values (foo) returns would ever affect the binding of b in that (let) example. 03:38:51 False. 03:39:06 True. I think you might be meaning... 03:39:13 Under the proposed semantics, (FOO), (BAR), and (BAZ) could return between zero and three values, provided that the total number of values is three. 03:39:44 Then the three values jointly yielded by (FOO), (BAR), and (BAZ) would be distributed to A, B, and C. 03:39:47 No, because let binds the 1 return value of each function to its respective variable. 03:39:57 What you're saying is more like um... 03:40:03 By what definition of LET? Not the one I'm using -- ((LAMBDA (A B C) ...) (FOO) (BAR) (BAZ)). 03:40:28 -!- repror___ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:50 wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:41:07 Oh, so (let) is equivalent to that, and if foo returns 3 values, they'd get assigned to b and c. 03:41:10 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 03:41:54 But instead it should be equivalent to (call-with-values foo (lambda (a) (call-with-values bar (lambda (b) (call-with-values baz (lambda (c) ...)))) 03:42:16 If you defined let in that fashion, then there would be no way for foo to assign a value to b. 03:42:35 And any functions returning multiple values would error out. 03:42:51 Since it's silly to assign multiple values to one variable. 03:43:02 I thought the whole purpose was to do just that. 03:43:31 No I'm thinking more function composition than variable binding... 03:43:38 LAMBDA is a binding construct. 03:44:19 (copy-port (tcp-connect ...)) and such 03:44:28 Redefining LET that way suggests that ordinary procedure application is hard to understand and use precisely. 03:44:37 One function accepts 2 values, another produces 2 values, just makes sense to compose them that way. 03:45:06 The problem goes beyond LET, however; it is only illustrated most acutely with LET. 03:45:19 I mean, I already use ((compose a b) ...) a lot. It's just kind of weird that doesn't work for normal procedure call syntax. 03:46:37 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@163.16.211.21] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:40 Honestly, this is so off the wall, I don't even know how to go about this.... 03:47:39 (A B C D) is procedure application, not composition... 03:47:54 Apparently people have had this idea over and over, because it's so easy to implement: just push all teh values on the stack, etc. 03:48:02 (a (b (c (d)))) is composition... 03:48:30 easy to implement jcowan, but apparantly there's something wrong with doing it. 03:48:48 Because this is Scheme and not Forth? 03:49:11 yeah there you go. 03:49:19 man I miss Forth... 03:49:27 It's still there. 03:49:59 And now there is Joy and Cat and Factor, too 03:50:00 zbigniew: I was gonna say that 03:50:05 In Scheme, we value expressions. Not so in Forth, where sequences of actions are preferred. If you want a Forthy Lisp, try Factor. Personally I find Factor nearly offensively obfuscated by design. 03:50:13 zbigniew: only working implementation I found hangs like a mother when compiling anything. 03:50:13 "The Joycat Factor" -- Robert Ludlam 03:50:14 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:27 I guess, if functions could have only one argument, then this could almost half make sense, but it would just be implementing exactly what we have now, but calling it Multiple Values instead of Lists. 03:51:01 Well, sequences of actions == composition of functions, that's Manfred's essential insight. 03:51:27 There are about a billion working implementations of Forth, not the least of which is gforth, which appears to work anywhere 03:51:47 incidentally https://synx.us.to/code/scheme/concatenative.ss :3 03:52:06 There is an important distinction between composing functions and combining expressions, jcowan. 03:52:30 Writing programs as the composition of functions is nearly as obfuscating as writing them as sequences of actions that edit a stack. 03:53:01 Yeah zbigniew. gForth is so advanced you can access disk files with it. :< 03:53:08 synx: (A (B) (C)) isn't saying take the values of (B) and (C) apply them to A, it's saying take the list of the values returned by (B) and (C) and apply them to A, which is entirely different. 03:53:11 Oh, I agree. I'm much more interested in implementing Joy than programming in it 03:53:32 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76-217-6-100.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 03:53:32 arcfide: s/apply them to A/apply A to them/g, I think 03:53:42 synx: So, what you are saying is like saying that ((1 2 3) (1)) == (1 2 3 1). 03:53:46 jcowan: Yes. 03:54:18 arcfide: except that multiple values are not lists... 03:55:02 I think "Joy" was the one that hung when compiling. 03:55:05 synx: But the arguments to a procedure can be thought of as a list. 03:55:05 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-75-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:14 Maybe it was Factor I forget. 03:55:40 arcfide: I don't see how..? They're separate from each other... 03:56:08 (foo . (1 2 3 4)) 03:56:28 -!- jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:49 breily [n=breily@173.15.192.254] has joined #scheme 03:56:50 Joy doesn't have a compiler 03:56:55 rudybot: eval '(foo . (1 2 3 4)) 03:56:57 zbigniew: your sandbox is ready 03:56:57 zbigniew: ; Value: (foo 1 2 3 4) 03:57:08 In Joy you can truly construct functions at runtime, since functions *are* lists 03:57:34 Oh right Joy is the one that's just some loose files in some university's site. Factor is the one that hangs on compile. 03:57:35 I never managed to build Joy... 03:57:59 Really? 03:58:17 Well, eventually the current C impl will be replaced by a Chicken one, if I ever get around to finishing it 03:58:27 In retrospect I can't see why, since the source is right there. Maybe I'll poke at it again. 03:58:59 It is an impressive piece of work for one guy :) 03:59:13 Two guys, actually 03:59:39 The core is Manfred, but the support for floats, files, and such is me. 04:00:33 ah, okie. 04:00:54 Also, it's something like his 4th or 5th implementation of the language 04:00:58 first Prolog, then Pascal 04:01:09 finally C 04:01:17 1k block-based storage should be enough for anyone 04:01:40 *synx* tsks 04:01:48 directly on /dev/hda8 04:02:02 joy.tar.gz doesn't have all files in a subdirectory as is conventional. 04:02:29 The technical pejorative term, synx, is `tarbomb'. 04:03:12 Example: Argh! jcowan, you thundering sea-gherkin, you indirectly handed me a tarbomb! 04:03:26 haha awesome Riastradh 04:03:39 Ten thousand terrifying typhoons! 04:03:47 Terrifying? Thundering, surely. 04:03:50 Whatever 04:03:56 I am not quoting. 04:04:06 Blistering barnacles, get it right! 04:04:13 Bah! Ectoplasm! 04:04:27 In any case, that is only one translator. 04:04:28 Coelacanth! 04:04:58 (Yes, but it's the canonical one, and it's actually much better than the original French.) 04:05:04 Troglodyte! 04:05:16 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:05:16 *jcowan* is of course the "ex" troglodyte, as is well known 04:05:17 Fresh-water pirate! 04:05:26 Platypus! 04:05:53 Salamander! 04:06:02 'tar ztf tarbomb.tar.gz | xargs rm' can be helpful in sending in the bomb squad in many cases 04:06:05 incubot: though tarbombs be rare these days, I have been traumatised enough to always prophylactically `tar ztvf` 04:06:08 yes, it's rare to share registers even on uniprocessor threads 04:07:53 Hydrocarbon!! 04:07:59 incubot: When zombies invoke the Allegheny, the Almighty gets cracking. 04:08:02 JFK cracking bank subversive Chobetsu Aladdin Medco satellite imagery 04:08:06 incubot: the soviets once detonated a 50MB behemoth called the 'tar bomba' 04:08:09 I am KING BOMBA of Sicily!..I will marry LUCILLE BALL next Friday! 04:08:18 Babboon! 04:08:28 zbigniew: tsar bomba 04:09:58 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176208140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:00 incubot: of course most of its power dissipated harmlessly in the upper filesystem 04:10:03 it seems like after the lisp AI houses of the 70s dissipated, lisp lost a little steam 04:12:00 ASau [n=user@host176-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 04:13:01 incubot: the radiation stunted lisp's growth for generations of GC 04:13:04 in Scheme, we distinguis between binding -- the *creation* of a variable -- and assignment -- the *change* of an existing variable --. Most programs only bind variables; variables, once bound, seldom change in value. Python has no such distinction -- there is only `=', if you ignore Python's rather stunted `lambda'. 04:13:27 stop-the-world, I want to get off 04:13:46 incubot: Take this brother, may it serve you well 04:13:48 Sure, but exercises serve many purposes. One of them is as a pool for instructors teaching a course to draw upon - this is *very* common in textbooks, obviously, and very few instructors will ever ask you to do every exercise. 04:13:55 Despite that amazing display of cunning and prowess, your tail still has a death-grip on your butt, zbigniew. 04:14:15 incubot: functional arguments are boundd, not assigned 04:14:18 no, what would zero arguments do :) 04:14:22 though they *can* be assigned afterwards 04:14:32 incubot: advice for zbigniew 04:14:34 So I'm bringing chicken's debian package up to date. I take it the stuffed-chicken.{la,a,so} files no longer exist? 04:14:46 incubot: advice for jcowan 04:14:48 advice for mmmdonuts 04:15:38 *Riastradh* vanishes. 04:18:03 Logarithm! 04:18:28 incubot: are you a chatterbot? 04:18:32 chatterbot 04:19:27 Branch cut 04:19:33 heh 04:19:50 Roots. 04:19:54 Logs. 04:19:58 Leaves. 04:20:09 incubot: tell neilv about multiple values 04:20:12 Someone once said There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 04:20:28 rudybot: later tell incubot tell zbigniew about neilv 04:20:29 minion: memo for incubot: offby1 told me to tell you: tell zbigniew about neilv 04:20:29 Remembered. I'll tell incubot when he/she/it next speaks. 04:20:45 incubot: cottage cheese 04:20:48 like when we went there something like a year and a half ago, then the boyfriend of the woman from whom we rented the cottage just lent us one of his trucking company's snowmobiles 04:20:49 incubot, memo from rudybot: offby1 told me to tell you: tell zbigniew about neilv 04:20:52 memo to forcer: minion uses Norvig's implementation of Eliza. 04:20:56 *offby1* ducks 04:21:17 incubot: say hi to sarahbot 04:21:20 what's his name? 04:21:23 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 04:21:55 incubot: chant 04:21:58 Chant at minion! 04:22:03 Sorry. 04:22:08 minion: chant 04:22:08 MORE INTERESTED 04:22:14 Indeed. 04:24:20 rudybot: chant 04:24:21 minion: chant 04:24:21 MORE INTERESTED 04:26:57 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176217217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:33 rudybot: seen forcer 04:28:34 *offby1: forcer was seen joining in/on :#emacs two days, eleven hours ago, and then forcer was seen quitting in/on f054021196.adsl.alicedsl.de one day, eleven hours ago, saying "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" 04:28:37 huh 04:28:48 rudybot: seen yome 04:28:48 *offby1: yome was seen joining in/on :#scheme eleven weeks, one day ago, and then yome was seen quitting in/on 70.48.78.163 eleven weeks, one day ago, saying "Client Quit" 04:29:28 rudybot: seen Aaron 04:29:28 *offby1: Aaron_ was seen joining in/on :#emacs five days, eighteen hours ago, and then Aaron_ was seen quitting in/on dsl16-60.pool.bitel.net five days, ten hours ago, saying "Read error: 113 (No route to host)" 04:30:19 rudybot: seen Abelian 04:30:27 *offby1* twiddles thumbs 04:30:48 *offby1: Abelian was seen joining in/on :#emacs six days, five hours ago, and then Abelian was seen quitting in/on yax.org.uk six days, four hours ago, saying "Client Quit" 04:30:58 rudybot: seen myself 04:30:58 zbigniew: No sign of myself 04:31:38 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-111.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 04:31:55 rudybot: seen cosine 04:31:55 zbigniew: No sign of cosine 04:32:04 *offby1* slaps zbigniew upside the haid 04:32:27 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 04:32:53 rudybot: seen zero 04:32:53 zbigniew: No sign of zero 04:33:02 ah, a twos-complement man 04:35:24 *XTL* managed to resist 04:41:02 *offby1* resigns in protest 04:47:01 -!- ttmrichter__ [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.243] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:47:09 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:47:22 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.243] has joined #scheme 04:52:10 rudybot: seen my little pony 04:52:11 leppie: No sign of mylittlepony 04:53:17 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:26 [[mark]] [n=mark@unaffiliated/mark/x-957811] has joined #scheme 04:56:46 ?? 04:57:27 you confused by what I wrote or what rudybot responded? 04:57:35 weird; the non-ASCII characters are visible in rudybot's response, but not leppie's original question 04:57:45 must be ERC or Emacs flakiness 04:57:49 hehe, reader bug! 04:57:58 alt-255 04:58:03 no, rudybot read it properly; I can tell from the logs 04:58:26 non-whitespace space 04:59:29 rudybot: eval a b 04:59:30 leppie: your sandbox is ready 04:59:30 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: ab 05:01:18 I see ?'s there too 05:02:20 rudybot: eval a b 05:02:21 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 05:02:21 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: a in module: 'program 05:02:29 heh 05:05:52 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.77.62] has joined #scheme 05:06:50 Is there a CL `apropos' equivalent in PLT Scheme? 05:07:35 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:07:57 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:08:42 ebzzry: No, but it's easy to define. 05:08:50 rudybot: apropos con 05:08:52 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 05:08:52 eli: matches: abort-current-continuation, build-path/convention-type, bytes-close-converter, bytes-convert, bytes-convert-end, bytes-converter?, bytes-open-converter, call-with-composable-continuation, call-with-continuation-barrier, call-with-continuation-prompt, call-with-current-continuation, call-with-escape-continuation, call-with-immediate-continuation-mark, char-iso-control?, coerce-contract, coerce-contract/f, coerce-contracts, coerce- 05:10:14 Where are rudybot's sources? 05:10:48 (that is if rudybot is written in scheme) 05:11:05 ebzzry: That's a piece of code that I contributed. 05:11:19 It's coming from the code I'm using in my environment. 05:11:28 rudybot: source 05:11:28 *offby1: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/b2a7675b5cd211b30f566ba6aaace79485d02143 05:11:43 See http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-June/025361.html for details -- if you're used to a lot of repl work, then this will give you a number of useful features. 05:12:27 eli: Thanks. I'll start from those links. 05:13:05 ebzzry: Go straight to my interactive hack, it's a little easier to follow. 05:13:39 I'd like to get a javascript interpreter somehow, and run it in a way that manipulates a DOM, but one that remains abstract not displayed. That way I could work on a model after it has been transformed, instead of the page without the javascript being run. 05:14:00 eli: OK 05:14:12 Well, I'd like to ban javascript obfuscation entirely, but that's up there with the pony. 05:15:21 As is all I can do is "well, for this site there's a newline followed by "var small_url =" and then a quote, and then what I want, followed by a quote." 05:24:21 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.77.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:03 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 05:39:53 Arelius_ [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 05:42:20 -!- Arelius_ [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:33 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [] 05:42:50 Arelius [n=indy@64.174.9.113] has joined #scheme 05:43:33 Arelius_ [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 05:43:47 -!- Arelius_ [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [Client Quit] 05:51:09 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.77.62] has joined #scheme 05:51:38 mmc 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09:59:04 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-186.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:01:01 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02:31 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:12:05 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:12:37 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [No route to host] 10:13:01 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:15:51 Where can I find the latest version of the PLT MzScheme Manual? 10:17:01 rudybot: docs 10:17:01 hkBst: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 10:17:18 rudybot: help 10:17:18 ebzzry: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 10:17:34 rudybot: commands 10:17:34 ebzzry: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 10:17:46 gah 10:18:21 ebzzry: are those docs not simply on the PLT website? 10:18:49 I'm looking for something like this: http://tinyurl.com/c4lv8t 10:19:20 Or this one: http://tinyurl.com/caktnb, but for the latest version 10:20:57 http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/4.1.5/html/ ? 10:21:48 Where's mzscheme? 10:22:41 http://download.plt-scheme.org/bundles/4.1.5/mz 10:24:01 http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/4.1.5/html/mzscheme/index.html says "The mzscheme language provides nearly the same bindings as the mzscheme module of PLT Scheme version 372 and earlier", that gives http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/372/html/mzscheme/ 10:24:02 Right? 10:25:58 ASau: I fetched http://download.plt-scheme.org/bundles/4.1.5/mz/mz-4.1.5-src-unix.tgz, but I can't seem to find any manual or manual-like materials inside, aside from the manpages. 10:31:21 npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 10:34:39 ebzzry_ [n=ebzzry@124.217.75.8] has joined #scheme 10:38:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:43:23 raikov [n=igr@61.127.191.238] has joined #scheme 10:45:03 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:45:59 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:46:13 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:51:12 pure [n=pure@219-89-129-76.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 10:51:18 -!- pure is now known as mad_muppet 10:52:12 I have just started learning scheme and want to find out how to single step through expressions using mit scheme and emacs .. can someone point me in the right direction thanks 10:53:41 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.81.193] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:26 -!- Guest13255 [n=m@dslb-088-067-030-216.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:56:28 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58:10 cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 11:03:20 mad_muppet: what do you mean `single step'? 11:04:04 mad_muppet: don't single-step 11:04:24 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:39 Just debug low-level functions first by calling them with test arguments. 11:04:45 Then go up. 11:05:03 You mean like `step into/step over' in many debuggers for java, c/c++, c#? Even if mit scheme occasionally supports step-by-step execution, I don't think that emacs can be integrated with that. 11:06:04 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 11:06:20 Mr-Cat: been looking at step-expression for edwin its similar to the drscheme step 11:08:16 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:08:33 mad_muppet: To be honest, I don't know, whether any editors and scheme implementations (other that drscheme) can do that. 11:08:51 Some environments have debuggers that do stepping or tracing 11:09:22 I don't know about MIT. It's probably easier to use other means. 11:09:29 Chicken scheme can `trace' - but that is too lowlevel 11:09:53 MrCat: I have just started so its all new to me .. just finding my way around .. I want to learn using one ide so thats why I was looking at a stepper for emacs 11:10:01 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:11:03 mad_muppet: But many people consider step-by-step execution as a bad debugging practice. 11:13:52 MrCat:Im learning so I was looking at how the code evaluates .. Im going through examples and seeing what happens ( I dont make mistakes lol ..:D) 11:14:34 mad_muppet: learn using REPL. 11:15:06 ASau:I have seen the term .. I will have to look it up though 11:16:03 Good idea :) 11:17:07 sorta jumped in and trying to swim ..:) 11:33:42 -!- raikov [n=igr@61.127.191.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:34:22 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:34:55 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:35:37 -!- ebzzry_ is now known as ebzzry 11:35:52 Is discouraged to use the mzlib collection? 11:35:54 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@vpn1195.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:35:59 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.166.117] has joined #scheme 11:36:58 s/Is/Is it/ 11:39:18 McManiaC [n=nils@vpn1195.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 11:40:00 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df993@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-78aa0f267d280706] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:44:16 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:45:27 -!- McManiaC [n=nils@vpn1195.extern.uni-tuebingen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:52:35 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:52 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:55:33 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:57:01 mansour [n=mansour@CPE0014bf895399-CM0014f8c19014.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 11:58:54 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:58:59 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:59:46 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:01:32 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:02:09 dzhus [n=sphinx@93-80-225-204.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 12:06:27 -!- mad_muppet [n=pure@219-89-129-76.jetstart.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:09:00 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:37 mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 12:15:42 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:16:12 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:17:15 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.166.117] has quit ["bye all"] 12:17:31 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:26:02 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df993@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5b509baec36a5e3f] has joined #scheme 12:27:26 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c0796BF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit ["raise Hand, 'wave'"] 12:27:35 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:28:26 stepnem [n=versme@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 12:28:39 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:39:39 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.181.75] has joined #scheme 12:42:12 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:43:31 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:44:16 -!- a-s` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:44:16 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:50:13 ebzzry_ [n=ebzzry@124.217.87.226] has joined #scheme 12:51:56 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 12:53:45 ebzzry__ [n=ebzzry@124.217.83.203] has joined #scheme 12:55:15 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:13 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:56:56 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:57:27 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:08:50 eli: 4.1.5 doesn't work: 13:08:54 Core was generated by `mred'. 13:08:54 Program terminated with signal 6, Aborted. 13:08:54 #0 0xbb675e57 in _lwp_kill () from /usr/lib/libc.so.12 13:08:54 (gdb) bt 13:08:56 #0 0xbb675e57 in _lwp_kill () from /usr/lib/libc.so.12 13:08:59 #1 0xbb675e10 in raise () from /usr/lib/libc.so.12 13:09:00 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.75.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:02 #2 0xbb6756c2 in abort () from /usr/lib/libc.so.12 13:09:06 #3 0x0843a695 in fault_handler () 13:09:09 #4 0x00000000 in ?? () 13:09:12 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:09:15 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:09:16 Any ready support for building with debug info? 13:09:41 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 13:10:13 -!- ebzzry__ is now known as ebzzry 13:11:00 -!- ebzzry_ [n=ebzzry@124.217.87.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:30 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:10 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.83.203] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:16:31 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.83.203] has joined #scheme 13:19:37 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE102.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 13:19:45 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE102.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:20:24 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.83.203] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:21:15 ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.83.203] has joined 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[n=Archvill@123.Red-79-154-4.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:05:36 Hi 14:06:24 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:07:52 anyone here used tex2page with mzscheme? 14:09:21 i have a simple LaTeX document, but when i run (tex2page "helloworld.tex") 14:09:28 the output is: 14:09:39 file-exists?: expects argument of type ; given #f 14:21:30 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:26:36 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:00 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@h73.net38.bmstu.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:29:22 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:41 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-50-48.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:31:03 -!- npe [n=npe@195.207.5.2] has quit [] 14:32:43 Does DivaScheme still work with 4.1.5? 14:33:26 -!- ASau 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["bbl"] 19:11:41 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 19:17:56 jeld [n=jeld@joshua.nat.trb.com] has joined #scheme 19:23:09 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6454f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e1e12a6a4aba3f75] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:23:38 Ragnaroek [i=54a6454f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b10f9534e8a9f957] has joined #scheme 19:26:41 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 19:32:01 -!- presto10 [n=user@cs181131.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:56 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit ["leaving"] 19:39:25 -!- Deformati [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:39:44 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-329442.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:45:26 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 19:46:33 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:48:09 hello everyone, I am just learning scheme as my "new language of the year", can someone tell me, what am I doing wrong here? http://rafb.net/p/WH4WBG76.html 19:49:02 You're applying the result of (display line) as if it were a procedure 19:49:16 If you want to do several things in sequence, use BEGIN 19:49:24 (begin (do-one-thing) (do-another)) 19:49:43 Deformati [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has joined #scheme 19:49:50 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A0FEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:03 sjamaan, thanks 19:51:07 yw 19:51:29 sjamaan, I might ask a few more silly questions if you do not mind 19:51:39 Go ahead, asking is free :) 19:53:17 trying to parse some logs using scheme, seems like I am using the same let loop to iterate over the file, but I get an error http://rafb.net/p/Lotwma64.html 19:53:31 ERROR: In procedure regexp-exec: 19:53:31 ERROR: Wrong type argument in position 2 (expecting string): # 19:53:35 btw, you may prefer to use lisppaste 19:53:36 lisppaste: url? 19:53:37 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 19:53:48 thanks! 19:54:21 jeld pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78194 19:55:11 Look at the let 19:55:27 What value are you assigning to the variable LINE? 19:55:46 sjamaan, damn 19:55:51 sjamaan, thanks 19:56:01 The error message tells you what you need to know :) 19:56:13 cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:28 (It says you passed it the procedure named READ-LINE, and not a string as expected) 19:56:46 A big part of learning a new language is often learning how to interpret error messages :) 19:57:36 sjamaan, yes, changed, is there a way to edit a paste? 19:57:45 You can annotate it, but not edit it 19:58:18 jeld annotated #78194 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78194#1 19:58:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:58:30 better 19:58:34 still doesn't work :( 19:58:47 bad define placement 19:59:13 Yes, iirc you can only group defines at the top of a procedure 19:59:21 r5rs define 19:59:22 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-8.html#%_idx_190 19:59:25 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cml55p 19:59:45 See section 5.2.2 20:01:06 parse-log contains a let (for login-rex etc), which starts with a named let and a define 20:01:14 (The named let is parse-line) 20:01:34 yes, moved define to the start of the parse-log 20:01:36 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:52 seems like guile doesn't have (first (list)) 20:02:09 That's not valid in any case :) 20:02:25 Try loading srfi-1 20:02:33 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html 20:02:49 FIRST is not in the spec 20:07:15 got it 20:07:36 npe [n=npe@108.192-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be] has joined #scheme 20:08:31 jeld annotated #78194 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78194#2 20:09:24 (define first car) (define rest cdr) is probably more efficient and straightforward 20:10:44 Most schemers would probably just use car and cdr directly, though 20:11:35 -!- npe [n=npe@108.192-78-194.adsl-fix.skynet.be] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:39 sjamaan, thought that didn't work with lists *sheepish grin* 20:13:14 lists are just conses where the final cdr is '() 20:13:30 sjamaan, still doesn't work :( 20:13:38 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:13:45 Do you get an error? 20:13:53 ERROR: Unbound variable: results 20:13:58 lemme update the paste 20:14:19 jeld annotated #78194 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78194#3 20:14:39 I am an idiot 20:14:40 If I told you the error is at the (print-results result) line, would that help? 20:15:25 out of scope 20:15:31 yes 20:15:47 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.111] has joined #scheme 20:16:23 ERROR: Wrong type to apply: () 20:16:42 could at least give me a line number :( 20:16:58 Sounds like you are trying to apply the empty list as if it were a procedure 20:17:05 I don't see where that would be yet, though 20:17:47 jeld annotated #78194 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78194#4 20:18:08 sjamaan, thanks for taking time to debug this with me 20:18:32 np 20:18:40 Always nice to help newcomers :) 20:19:28 ah, looks like your call to print-result is wrong 20:20:06 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:18 hmm... in what way? 20:20:28 22:19| ( sjamaan) Sounds like you are trying to apply the empty list as if it were a procedure 20:20:59 right, need a condition 20:21:02 ? 20:21:10 need to stop when there are no more results 20:21:18 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A248D.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 20:21:25 Right, that too 20:21:25 otherwise I am calling car/cdr on an empty list 20:21:53 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:21:54 Except you're not calling cdr on an empty list, but you're calling cdr on the result of calling the list as a procedure 20:22:17 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:22:35 (which won't work of course) 20:23:35 where am I calling list as procedure 20:23:36 ? 20:23:36 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-029.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:23:40 (cdr (r)) 20:23:45 r is not a procedure 20:24:02 Same for the car, I guess 20:24:15 ah! 20:25:44 inertia of other languages calling conventions 20:25:53 :) 20:26:06 ERROR: Wrong type (expecting pair): () 20:26:18 The empty list is the only list that's not a pair 20:26:22 It's an atom 20:26:26 jeld annotated #78194 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78194#5 20:26:55 right, need to stop 20:26:59 exactly 20:32:42 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:36:47 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:58 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:43:26 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.19.212] has joined #scheme 20:43:39 scheme has a better library support than common-lisp not ? 20:45:40 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:43 unfortunatly, due to the Scheme community being fractured between implementations, I guess CL has more libraries that are portable between implementations 20:47:36 but for example, Chicken and PLT Scheme both have a pretty large arsenal of libs 20:48:24 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.83.203] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:50 sepult_: the library SUPPORT is non-existent 20:49:27 hkBst: in R5RS, I might add ;-) 20:52:37 but for example when i install guile, i see an slib 20:52:42 delivered 20:53:00 so what's that then ? 20:53:29 it's a band-aid 20:53:46 not standardized ? 20:55:10 sepult_: what is it you are trying to do? 20:55:34 conversate ? 20:55:36 lol 20:56:22 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a6454f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b10f9534e8a9f957] has quit 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peer)] 22:53:34 davidad1 [n=me@dhcp-18-111-16-64.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:55:09 -!- davidad [n=me@RANDOM-SEVEN-FIFTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:05:21 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 23:05:39 -!- bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:06:20 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:07:56 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:17 Use shale it's much cheaper. 23:12:47 no 23:13:12 sepult: unlike common lisp, scheme is not one specific implementation. It's a series of specifications for a computer language, and several systems implement it. 23:13:41 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit ["leaving"] 23:13:49 sepult: There are at least 3 implementations that have undeniably good library support though. I don't know how common lisp would compare with them. 23:14:23 what ones? chicken, plt and... ? 23:14:35 hey Archville 23:14:40 scheme is kind of like IRC: it doesn't mean you have to use unrealircd, but any IRC server or client will work. 23:14:46 leppie :D 23:15:02 Archville: Chicken 4 at least. Chicken 3 has some namespace problems... 23:15:31 i like mzscheme 23:15:49 however they tend to break some of the packages from version to version 23:15:53 mzscheme ? that's plt right ? 23:15:58 I could go out on a limb and say Chez has good libraries, but since I'm not in the favorable financial caste I don't have much chance to be involved in it. 23:16:00 (tex2page i'm looking at you) 23:16:06 sepult: yes 23:16:09 mzscheme is the non-graphical interpreter in plt yes. 23:16:13 what about mit-scheme ? 23:16:29 Yeah mit-scheme is good. It's a bit "old school" though. 23:16:40 and guile is new-school ? 23:16:46 or chicken ? 23:16:51 or gauche ? 23:17:39 I don't consider Guile to be scheme. 23:17:48 Never heard of gauche o.O 23:18:19 synx: april fool's day is over :P 23:18:32 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.57.58.146] has joined #scheme 23:19:34 I think MIT-scheme is one of the oldest implementations. A lot of people have put a lot of work into it. 23:19:45 for a modern implementation i would recomend ikarus 23:20:36 there is a scheme for all ocassions :) 23:20:41 sepult: I would stay away from guile. especially when there is larceny, bigloo, mzscheme, chicken, and many other good schemes 23:20:45 proq: ? I thought the SICP was based on MIT-scheme. That's the oldest scheme source I can think of. 23:20:46 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:54 Ikarus? No threads, no networking, no graphics, no database libraries. 23:21:05 but but r6rs 23:21:54 synx: ok 23:21:57 I don't know how MIT-scheme handles threaded programming... 23:22:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 23:23:09 synx: I was referring to guile not being a scheme, and the possibility of you, a #scheme regular, not having heard of gauche 23:24:35 In Guile (cons 'a 'b) is an error, if I recall. That's about as fundamentally not scheme as you can get I'd say. 23:24:49 SugarGlider [n=stevie@dyn-203-143-164-139.qrl.nicta.com.au] has joined #scheme 23:25:07 proq: And well /now/ I've heard about Gauche :p 23:25:37 guile> (cons 'a 'b) 23:25:39 (a . b) 23:26:31 davidad [n=me@NORTHWEST-THIRTYFIVE-FOUR-TWENTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:28:24 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:55 I dunno what it is then mejja, but there was something /weird/ about it. 23:29:15 -!- davidad1 [n=me@dhcp-18-111-16-64.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:29:53 There's nothing that weird about Guile. 23:30:43 maybe I was thinking of something else then... 23:31:00 synx: maybe this: guile> (define l lambda) 23:31:21 guile> l => # 23:31:36 That is pretty darned weird. 23:32:09 You get the same in most interpreters. 23:34:03 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-131-221.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:20 ==> (define l lambda) 23:35:20 Error: Unbound variable: lambda 23:37:27 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.57.58.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:55 kniu [n=kniu@OVERLORD.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:39:58 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:41:15 rudybot: eval (define l lambda) 23:41:17 proq: your sandbox is ready 23:41:18 proq: error: eval:1:10: lambda: bad syntax in: lambda 23:45:32 rudybot: eval (let ((f -)) (let f ((n (f 1))) n)) 23:45:33 Archville: your sandbox is ready 23:45:33 Archville: ; Value: -1 23:46:19 guile: 23:46:29 guile> (define foo lambda) 23:46:35 guile> (define (bar x) ((x (y) (+ y 1)) 2)) 23:46:41 guile> (bar foo) 23:46:41 3 23:46:56 yes, it's perfectly normal 23:47:23 *synx* eyes cross 23:47:47 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:48:08 gosh> (define foo lambda) => foo 23:48:30 Oh... that's bizarre. 23:48:38 ... gosh> (bar foo) => *** ERROR: unbound variable: y 23:49:21 -!- wrldpc [n=worldpea@pool-173-48-214-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:49:43 That must mean guile is a pure interpreter - no analysis? 23:51:32 guile is in the proccess of using a bytecode compiler 23:51:49 (or that's what the website says) 23:51:51 guile> (define (foo x) (x (begin (display 1) #f) (display 2))) 23:51:52 guile> (foo and) 23:51:52 1#f 23:52:35 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-216-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 23:52:56 ... and the bytecode produced by the compiler for (define (bar x) ((x (y) (+ y 1)) 2)) is??? 23:53:04 Ha ha ha. 23:53:37 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.57.58.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:55:43 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:57:12 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:41 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE102.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."]