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00:53:40 <sepult> is scheme a subset of common-lisp like c is of c++ ?
00:54:05 <proq> no
00:55:42 <proq> you can take C code and build it with a C++ compiler, but you can't do anything like that with a common lisp compiler
00:56:12 <proq> they have the same roots, but that is all
00:56:33 <sepult> ok thank you
00:57:32 <sepult> i actually took my first course in scheme then heh
00:57:40 <sepult> and i thought it to be common-lisp
00:57:43 <sepult> bah
01:00:07 <sepult> so car and cdr belong to scheme then
01:00:14 <sepult> not common-lisp
01:00:44 <sepult> though common-lisp has first and rest
01:00:48 <sepult> ok
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01:01:52 <proq> no, car and cdr are roots of lisp. they are shared among both
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01:03:51 <sepult> oh another nap
01:04:03 <p1dzkl> there is at least one difference though, in taking the cdr of the empty list
01:04:18 <sepult> which is ?
01:04:40 <p1dzkl> it's undefined/an error in scheme, but returns the empty list again in CL
01:05:38 <sepult> so (cdr ()) is an error ?
01:05:52 <proq> rudybot: eval (cdr '())
01:05:54 <rudybot> proq: your sandbox is ready
01:05:55 <rudybot> proq: error: cdr: expects argument of type <pair>; given ()
01:06:06 <sepult> ah
01:06:17 <sepult> ok
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01:31:50 <synx> hm... I wonder if I could do it better using a recursive transformer...
01:32:54 <synx> that wouldn't account for implicitly closed tags though, damn...
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01:35:39 <klutometis> synx: why not: don't implicitly closed tags have rules? e.g. </ul> and </ol> close <li>
01:36:01 <klutometis> maintain a stack of unclosed tags
01:36:52 <synx> Well, was thinking to use /the/ stack is the thing. Hard to know about the procedures above you though, so an explicit stack would be better.
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02:18:24 <synx> hmm, ssax has some pretty danged permissive parsers...
02:18:48 <bsmntbombdood> SEXP
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02:29:45 <pantsd> So I want to do ((foo a ...) (bar a...)) but in a sub letrec macro, is there a way to do this which is not balls?
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02:36:13 <synx> how d'you destroy a window in mred?
02:36:26 <synx> It has on-close, and can-close? but not any sort of close method?
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02:43:28 <synx> man it's such a convenient GUI
02:43:46 <synx> I love having to right click in order to select Paste from a menu. So much faster than Ctrl-V
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02:47:50 <synx> (send window show #f) hm
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03:35:18 <zbigniew> synx: are you still trying to figure out how to do a permissive html parse
03:36:28 <synx> maybe? I'm trying to figure out how to parse poorly designed webpages. If making a permissive xml parser is the way to do that, then I have to do that.
03:36:39 <zbigniew> why not just use foof's permissive parser
03:37:29 <bpalmer> most webpages are not xml, mind you.
03:38:10 <zbigniew> (is 'permissive xml parser' an oxymoron?)
03:39:34 <bpalmer> nah; for example, you could be a validating parser, or not.
03:39:48 <bpalmer> (where as you parse, you're verifying against the DTD and/or schemata)
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03:41:28 <zbigniew> point taken, but in this instance I think 'permissive' is congruent to 'mismatched tags'
03:41:52 <synx> ...because I'm still kind of leery of chicken and its adherence to C.
03:42:12 <synx> and also kind of leery of compiled languages in general.
03:43:26 <zbigniew> What does Chicken have to do with this?
03:44:18 <synx> foof's parser is  Chicken specific, innit?
03:44:19 <zbigniew> Unless it was a non-sequitur you were going for, in which case you are to be congratulated.
03:44:38 <foof> And what does Chicken have to do with C?  Chicken uses less C than almost any implementation I know of, including Scheme48.
03:45:11 <synx> I thought Chicken had to have C language equivalents for everything it did.
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03:45:18 <foof> ?
03:45:28 <synx> Which is why csc can output a .c file.
03:45:50 <zbigniew> synx: um, no.  http://synthcode.com/scheme/html-parser.scm
03:45:57 <zbigniew> there is even a plt package of it, iirc
03:46:17 <synx> oh okay, sorry...
03:47:12 <foof> synx: You're confused.  By that logic PLT has to have assembly language equivalents for everything it does because it has a JIT compiler.
03:47:50 <zbigniew> even a VM runs on the metal
03:48:10 <synx> I don't mind assembly language equivalents... just seems odd to have to figure out the C syntax for every algorithm.
03:48:53 <mejja> ?
03:48:55 <zbigniew> guh
03:49:03 <foof> synx: You're very seriously confused.
03:49:05 <zbigniew> I thought PLT compiled to Perl, anyway.
03:49:15 <synx> oh shi
03:49:17 <zbigniew> incubot: that's what the "P" stands for
03:49:20 <incubot> "Little Nancy Etticoat In a white petticoat And a red nose. The longer she stands The shorter she grows. "
03:52:42 <zbigniew> I don't bother using csc, anyway.  Just string together a bunch of functions named f_1594, f_506 and stub6994 and then include <chicken.h>, and you're golden
03:53:29 <foof> You include <chicken.h>?  Wimp!  I redefine the tag system for every app to get optimal performance.
03:54:03 <zbigniew> 16MB strings should be enough for everybody
03:54:11 *foof* cries
03:55:01 <zbigniew> incubot: from k18961 in k18957 in k18953 in k18167 in k18164 in k18161 in k18158 in k18155 in zbigniew
03:55:04 <incubot> how cna i read the code from a file using mzscheme?
03:56:58 <zbigniew> incubot: (with-input-from-string "(+ 1 blat)" read)
03:56:58 <incubot> (+ 1 blat)
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04:00:01 <Daemmerung> PLT = perl language translatorer
04:00:26 <zbigniew> I heard the next step was to port PLT to Arc
04:00:59 <foof> :)
04:01:15 <zbigniew> incubot: how about a nice mutton, lettuce and tomato
04:01:18 <incubot> mutton!
04:01:33 <Daemmerung> Mutton Rothschilde
04:02:45 <zbigniew> incubot: (##sys#expand-home-path "~/")
04:02:45 <incubot> /home/pcdanenb/
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04:37:02 *zbigniew* discovers dwm
04:42:00 <synx> That parser looks pretty sweet foof. It's exactly what I was going to do except, you know, finished.
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04:43:10 <synx> I wonder if it can handle the infamous <option value="24"selected="selected"> tag.
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04:49:48 <synx> hot damn it handles it perfectly
04:50:07 <synx> Even BeautifulSoup cuts off at a blank document beyond that point.
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04:57:29 <foof> What's difficult about that to parse?
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05:05:20 <synx> There's no space between the attribute value and the next attribute's name.
05:05:30 <synx> Which is totally illegal in HTML even.
05:06:20 <synx> Or to be more precise, that is one attribute whose value is 24"selected="selected, and it errors out because " and = are not allowed in attribute values.
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05:21:05 <foof> Right, but if you're going to be a permissive parser (as all web browsers have to be), then the only sensible meaning is to split it at the "
05:21:51 <synx> And BeautifulSoup, and its underlying parser HTMLParser does not do that.
05:22:07 <lowlycoder> OT: what are the biggest practical (not P vs NP) computer science research problems left to solve? or are all the 'real' work being done in industry, and academia is just a place where researchers masturbate to the complexity of the problems they can create
05:22:21 <synx> yikes I notice the postgresql interface for chicken does not support parameters.
05:22:54 <synx> lowlycoder: My opinion? Fix Usenet.
05:23:18 <lowlycoder> as in undo the september winter?
05:23:38 <synx> ?
05:24:20 <zbigniew> me too
05:25:05 <lowlycoder> wasn't there some month in the distant past where a bunch of stupid people discovered usenet
05:25:11 <synx> The only reason Myspace is as successful as it is is because Usenet is fundamentally broken.
05:25:14 <lowlycoder> and it's quality went down? and said event called the september winter?
05:25:22 <synx> Well that and people are stupid and like glittery shiny shiny
05:25:43 <lowlycoder> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September <-- that's what I meant
05:26:37 <synx> Interesting lowlycoder... before my time really. My participation in Usenet went way down recently though when all ISPs stopped supporting it "for the children" a year or so ago.
05:27:06 <synx> I won't deny that I've heard horror stories about what AOL hath wraught.
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05:29:51 <synx> But my problem with Usenet is you can't not be impersonated on it. You have very little recourse when it comes to asserting your identity.
05:30:05 <zbigniew> incubot: according to the nyt, caffeine consumption has been added to the long list of things that can be described with the superlative 'epic'
05:30:07 <incubot> well hmm.. so it would be constant... memory consumption: last car and promise; so no backtracking... would have to play with it more to see it clearly
05:30:14 <synx> That and it's expensive and caters to a caste based system and floodfill and lol
05:30:56 <synx> Anyway, so solving the Usenet problem, and figuring out why we have such things as phpBB is an excellent topic to study academically I'd say.
05:31:29 <synx> Perhaps more psychology than computer science, but hey we're gonna need robopsychologists pretty soon right?
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05:31:45 <zbigniew> incubot: recite the calvinian laws
05:31:48 <incubot> well, maybe theydidn't obey the laws of maths
05:32:15 <zbigniew> incubot: nor, the laws of punctuation, amirite
05:32:18 <incubot> cheston: #11960: So you threw in some random punctuation for no particular reason, and then you didn't get the result you expected.  Hmmmm.
05:32:19 <synx> I has a maths.
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06:31:47 <duncanm> what's the way to run paredit in the inferior-lisp buffer with RET working correctly?
06:36:49 <duncanm> ah, i fixed it
06:49:34 <klutometis> incubot: bert from marry poppins embodies the heinleinian dictum of "specialization is for insects"
06:49:37 <incubot> Mary Poppins version, in fact.
06:51:43 <foof> As long as Ubuntu was going to use a fictional animal for the `J' release, they may as well have used `Jabberwocky.'
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07:03:53 <klutometis> foof: what do you mean? a jackalope is a bunny with shope papilloma virus
07:05:53 <klutometis> also, it was the next in queue after "jealous jyykle" was rejected
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07:10:33 <Daemmerung> And jittery jackalwere and jonesing jitterbug.
07:12:35 <foof> OK, so maybe jaguar would infringe on Apple, but what's wrong with jackal (with props to nethack), jackrabbit, jaybird or jellyfish (staying away from more rare animals)?
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07:14:15 <lowlycoder> in chicken scheme, how do I start a process and be able to write to it's stdin and read from it's stdout ?
07:15:21 <zbigniew> (use posix)
07:15:44 <zbigniew> (receive (in out pid) (process "/bin/blah") ...)
07:17:59 -!- certainty|work is now known as certainty
07:19:10 <zbigniew> IN is the input to you, not /bin/blah's stdin, btw
07:24:01 <leppie> that always confuses me  :)
07:25:07 <zbigniew> yeah
07:26:01 <zbigniew> (receive (in out pid) (process "dc") (display "1 2 + p" out) (newline out) (read-line in))
07:26:04 <zbigniew> => "3"
07:27:37 <lowlycoder> how do I kill the running process?
07:27:51 <zbigniew> you have to reboot
07:28:16 <lowlycoder> err? I have the pid ... I can't kill it?
07:28:47 <zbigniew> process-wait, probably
07:29:19 <lowlycoder> i guess posixunix.scm is now my friend :-)
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07:31:43 <zbigniew> (receive (in out pid) (process "dc") (display "1 2 + p" out) (newline out) (let ((rv (read-line in))) (close-output-port out) (process-wait pid) rv))
07:32:18 <lowlycoder> process-wait doesn't 'kill' :-)
07:32:22 <lowlycoder> it waits for it to terminate
07:32:28 <lowlycoder> i'm looking for Ctrl-c
07:32:57 <zbigniew> Send it a signal or tell it to quit or close its stdin.
07:34:03 <zbigniew> there's also the osprocess egg which abstracts this out and is somewhat safer... although...
07:34:23 <zbigniew> it does have my favorite constructor ever:
07:34:26 <zbigniew> (make-osprocess COMMAND [#:shell? #f] [#:pseudo-tty? #f] [#:reap? #t] [#:fork? #t] [#:wait? #f] [#:exact? #f] [#:search? #f] [#:collect? #f] [#:abnormal-exit-error? #f] [#:signal-mask #f] [#:output #t] [#:input #t] [#:error #t] [#:output-buffer #f] [#:input-buffer #f] [#:error-buffer #f] [#:output-mode #f] [#:input-mode #f] [#:error-mode #f] [#:arguments #f] [#:environment #f] [ARGUMENT ...])
07:41:19 <lowlycoder> zbigniew: you're awesome. thanks
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07:56:31 <lowlycoder> is there a non-blocking function for: "check if there is input I can read from this port" ?
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07:59:33 <zbigniew> peek-char
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08:00:23 <zbigniew> Sorry, I do that every time.
08:00:37 <zbigniew> use char-ready?.  peek-char won't work
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08:00:50 <elderK> Hey ye schemers!
08:00:50 <elderK> :p
08:01:05 <zbigniew> incubot: krunk
08:01:08 <incubot> krunk.
08:01:17 <elderK> :P?
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08:01:54 <elderK> "An introduction to scheme and it's implementation" is highly useful, I'm finding so far :)
08:01:55 <zbigniew> that is r5rs, by the way, make sure to familiarize yourself with that
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08:03:30 <elderK> I'm trying.
08:03:35 <elderK> Although, I'm having some problems adjusting from C.
08:04:10 <elderK> Like, everything in Scheme is a pointer - right? If we have a Symbol, X, and it is a "number". It's not, really. It's a pointer to some number - and Scheme automates the dereferencing and whatnot, right?
08:04:19 <elderK> At least, am I near the right mindset on this issue?
08:05:44 <elderK> Which brings me to the problem - How do I update what a given symbol references? At the top-level, that isn't so hard - just use set! right? But, what if I pass the symbol into a function - is it possible to change what that symbol references - not just the formal argument?
08:05:46 <klutometis> elderK: possibly; but that might apply to all dynamic languages, and is not specific to scheme
08:06:48 <elderK> say, this:
08:06:48 <klutometis> incubot: (define x 3) ((lambda () (set! x 2))) (pp x)
08:06:48 <incubot> #<unspecified>
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08:06:53 <zbigniew> elderK: I was actually talking to lowlycoder about char-ready?.
08:06:56 <klutometis> incubot: (define x 3) ((lambda () (set! x 2))) x
08:06:56 <incubot> 2
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08:07:30 <elderK> klutometis: What about something like this,
08:07:33 <klutometis> elderK: that's what you mean by, "change what the symbol references" isn't it?
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08:07:49 <klutometis> elderK: oh, you want to pass it in
08:08:10 <klutometis> incubot: (define x 3) (define (f x) (set! x 2)) (f x) x
08:08:10 <incubot> 3
08:08:12 <elderK> (define x 3)
08:08:13 <elderK> ((lamba (sym) (set! sym 4)) x)
08:08:13 <elderK> x
08:08:21 <elderK> and x be 4, rather than 3.
08:08:25 <zbigniew> Riastradh was just bemoaning this the other day
08:09:07 <elderK> Like, CL has something called symbol-value, which allows us to set things absolutely.
08:09:11 <elderK> I was wondering if Scheme had something similar.
08:09:20 <zbigniew> stop the mutation
08:09:30 <elderK> ?
08:09:42 <zbigniew> incubot: (begin (define x (vector 3)) ((lambda (y) (vector-set! y 4)) x) x)
08:09:42 <incubot> Error: bad argument count - received 2 but expected 3: #<procedure (vector-set! v600 i601 x602)>
08:09:52 <zbigniew> incubot: (begin (define x (vector 3)) ((lambda (y) (vector-set! y 0 4)) x) x)
08:09:52 <incubot> #(4)
08:10:30 <elderK> I want to change what the symbol points to - not an element in a vector, that the symbol points to.
08:10:37 <elderK> And I'm not bemoaning, I'm trying to learn.
08:10:44 <zbigniew> Don't do that.
08:10:45 <klutometis> elderK: what's the purpose, though; so that you can write c in scheme?
08:10:56 <klutometis> elderK: read SICP; think in scheme.
08:11:11 <zbigniew> Riastradh was bemoaning this because newbies coming from C try to do it and don't understand why it won't work
08:11:30 <klutometis> functional programming is about referential transparency
08:12:01 <elderK> If I have a tree of 45k nodes - and I add one node (or remove one node), I don't want to have a complete copy of the old tree.
08:12:08 <elderK> I understand the benefits of referential transparency,
08:12:18 <elderK> but I shouldn't always have to use it.
08:12:31 <klutometis> elderK: ok; but you're talking about mutating a node in a structure
08:12:33 <klutometis> you can do that
08:12:40 <elderK> yup.
08:12:40 <klutometis> do you want to change what the tree points to, and why?
08:12:41 <elderK> but say, this :
08:12:51 <zbigniew> as i just did.  totally orthogonal to your toplevel symbol question
08:13:08 <zbigniew> incubot: (begin (define x 3) ((lambda (y) (global-set! y 4)) 'x) x)
08:13:09 <incubot> Error: unbound variable: global-set!
08:13:24 <zbigniew> mm, no lolevel
08:13:31 <lowlycoder> why does the following code hang?
08:13:33 <elderK> (define *my-tree* nil)
08:13:34 <lowlycoder> (receive (in out pid) (process "gdb --interpreter=mi2") (define (r) (if (char-ready? in) (pp (read-line in)))) (format #t "blah~N") (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r))
08:13:34 <elderK> (insert-in-tree *my-tree* *some-node*)
08:13:34 <elderK> < after this, *my-tree* should point to *some-node* or the value it references, because it is the root node >
08:14:12 <klutometis> elderK: why not keep a tree object which happens to contain the mutable member root?
08:14:22 <elderK> An easy way around this is to simply create a header.
08:14:22 <elderK> (define *my-tree* (make-tree))
08:14:25 <elderK> Aye.
08:14:26 <elderK> :)
08:14:30 <elderK> that's what I was thinking too, klutometis.
08:14:36 <elderK> I was just wondering if it was possible to do it in the old way.
08:15:04 <elderK> And hey, of the Scheme implementations, which is possibly the most popular to use?
08:15:08 <klutometis> elderK: depending on your distro, there may be some magical (non-portable) function like global-set!
08:15:23 <klutometis> elderK: chicken; followed by plt
08:15:24 <zbigniew> WHICH YOU SHOULD NEVER USE ON PAIN OF DEATH
08:15:25 <elderK> (Oh, and thank you for helping me; I understand that these questions must be incredibly boring to you all but, thank you none the less for answering)
08:15:42 <zbigniew> global-set!, that is
08:16:19 <klutometis> elderK: not boring, but troubling; why write in $LANGUAGE when you're writing c in $LANGUAGE?
08:16:25 <lowlycoder> why does the following code hang: (receive (in out pid) (process "gdb --interpreter=mi2") (define (r) (if (char-ready? in) (pp (read-line in)))) (format #t "blah~N") (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r) (r))
08:16:37 <elderK> And, to make my intentions clear - I am looking to learn Scheme for fun. I work with C every day and, I'm sick of C. I want to come home and, create some little fun things - in something far more productive. Something different, thus, Scheme.
08:16:48 <klutometis> lowlycoder: it saw your face, and infinitely recursed
08:16:49 <Daemmerung> Real programmers, Fortran, any language, etc.
08:16:52 <zbigniew> We saw it, lowlycoder.
08:16:53 <klutometis> elderK: do you have the patience for SICP?
08:17:08 <elderK> that's true klutometis. But, I am still trying to familiarize myself with Scheme itself.
08:17:15 <zbigniew> Among other things, perhaps because you're not writing to the output port
08:17:16 <elderK> :) Well, yes.
08:17:27 <klutometis> elderK: this is a great book for learning scheme: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html
08:17:30 <elderK> I have a book on loan, not about scheme as such, but lisp. Lisp 3rd edition.
08:17:36 <elderK> Thank you, klutometis.
08:17:47 <zbigniew> then there's input and output flushing...
08:17:51 <elderK> I've been looking at Scheme in Fixnum days, and 'Use and implementation of Scheme'.
08:18:27 <zbigniew> SICP is the best if you want to learn to think in Scheme.
08:18:44 <elderK> So far, I'm finding "Scheme and it's implementation" to be the most intuitive to at least letting me click to the lowerlevel aspects.
08:18:46 <elderK> And aye :)
08:19:08 <klutometis> you'll learn things from SICP that are applicable to other functional languages, too
08:19:29 <elderK> klutometis: I figure it would be possible to say, make a little Zelda-like in Scheme, if I so wanted?
08:19:29 <zbigniew> Don't fight it though, that part of your brain that is saying "I would do that this way in C" is counterproductive.  You must be a tabula rasa
08:19:49 <elderK> Aye, that's what I figured too zbigniew. :P In a way, Scheme disgusts me :P but it also intrigues me to no end.
08:19:52 <elderK> because I'm so trained to C.
08:20:01 <elderK> but I know, to use Scheme well, I have to think in Scheme, see Scheme.
08:20:04 <klutometis> elderK: hey, great idea; i might even be inclined to help ;)
08:20:06 <elderK> Not transliterate C to Scheme.
08:20:07 <elderK> :)
08:20:07 <zbigniew> incubot: origin systems used to make the best crpgs
08:20:10 <incubot>   (list 'I-am-a-wreckedangle origin-vect H V))
08:20:55 <elderK> :) It's just, I tend to learn better from doing little practical things - to get the sense of progress. You know?
08:20:58 <elderK> :) I like to apply what I am learning as I learn.
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08:21:36 <zbigniew> Well, there are certainly plenty of exercises in SICP, all of which you must do
08:24:36 <elderK> :) Could be a fun project for a month or so.
08:24:39 <elderK> Work through SICP
08:24:40 <elderK> :)
08:24:54 <zbigniew> That would be impressive.
08:25:02 <elderK> Oh, whyfore?
08:25:09 <zbigniew> To me, anyway.
08:25:20 <zbigniew> Oh, you'll see.
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08:25:26 <elderK> Spend say, my work day, working in C. Then, when I have free time, just tinkering with Scheme, working through SICP. and hopefully, at the end, come out much enlightened.
08:25:44 <elderK> Even if I don't say, become a guru of Scheme - I'd be happy at least if I could understand how to use it better :)
08:25:55 <elderK> And even have a little bit of a scheme mindset going on.
08:26:02 <elderK> Jsut, some kind of progress. :)
08:27:00 <elderK> I have asked some people of their opinions at work, and their perspective is quite... lame. "Oh, Lisp? Scheme? Why bother, the world runs in C!". Phft. Scheme is a language. What C can do, Scheme can do. Just, you have to work in a different way, approach things differently. Right?
08:27:07 <elderK> And the more people say 'BOO SCHEME!' the more I want to learn it :)
08:27:11 <elderK> Because it /is different/ than C.
08:27:12 <elderK> :)
08:27:22 <elderK> I want to experience that almighty gestalt, that lovely mind-expanding BOOM!
08:27:23 <elderK> :)
08:27:24 <elderK> You know?
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08:28:41 <zbigniew> Oh, yes.  Snotty beamed me twice last night.  It was wonderful.
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08:29:15 <elderK> :)
08:29:26 <elderK> so, I think I am approaching this with at least the right intention?
08:29:45 <elderK> If not, I'd appreciate any advice or suggestions you could make, so that my learning of Scheme; well, could be more productive I guess :)
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08:50:52 <Quadrescence> Is DrScheme easily extensible? Or must I hack at the source?
08:56:55 <Daemmerung> http://docs.plt-scheme.org/drscheme/extending-drscheme.html
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08:57:55 *Quadrescence* is reading.
08:58:23 <Quadrescence> If any of you are drscheme developers, you guys/girls are on mostly the right track with things, I think, I hope.
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09:15:43 <elderK> :) Did anyone read what I posted?
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09:24:22 <Quadrescence> elderK: I think I've talked to you before.
09:24:24 <Quadrescence> I don't know where.
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09:25:12 <elderK> Perhaps on #lisp ?
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09:25:16 <Quadrescence> Yeah
09:25:20 <elderK> :) Hey!
09:25:24 <elderK> How are you today, Quadrescence?
09:25:34 <elderK> As you can see, I'm still scouting out the lovely lands of Lisp.
09:25:34 <elderK> :)
09:25:37 <Quadrescence> elderK: Read about scheme/lisp's history, and papers on it and stuff.
09:25:57 <Quadrescence> elderK: I'm okay. It's 4:26, and I haven't slept for 36 or so hours.
09:26:04 <elderK> o_O Damn
09:26:07 <elderK> Whyfore so long?
09:26:27 <Quadrescence> Enthusiastic about writing 2.2K lines of lisp.
09:27:32 <elderK> hehehe.
09:27:33 <elderK> :) Neaty.
09:27:41 <elderK> I'm excited with the idea of writing a Scheme interpeter.
09:27:42 <elderK> Not sure why.
09:27:55 <Quadrescence> elderK: That's exactly what I am/was doing.
09:28:12 <elderK> Mostly it just seems exciting, to try and understand how the interpreter/evaluator would work. How would I construct things from the input stream?
09:28:15 <elderK> and suchlike.
09:28:16 <elderK> :)
09:29:18 <elderK> say, (+ (* 2 4) (- 4 2)).  have to work out (* 2 4) = 8. (- 4 2) = 2. then, we just run (+ 2 8) = 10.
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09:29:24 <elderK> That's all well and dandy.
09:29:29 <elderK> but what about functions?
09:29:43 <Quadrescence> elderK: Well, + and * are functions
09:29:54 <elderK> ((lamba (x y) (* x y)) 1 2)
09:29:56 <Quadrescence> How might we set a variable?
09:30:05 <elderK> Aye :)
09:30:14 <elderK> but I mean, how would we process that? How would we evaluate that in our little interpreter?
09:30:27 <elderK> For clarity, suppose the interpreter was written in any language, agnostic.
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09:30:47 <Quadrescence> No, suppose it's written in Scheme. :)
09:30:53 <elderK> :P
09:30:53 <Quadrescence> 1000x easier in scheme/lisp
09:31:03 <elderK> Well, yes.
09:31:08 <elderK> But the details interes tme :)
09:31:23 <Quadrescence> You can learn a lot from writing it in scheme.
09:31:51 <elderK> Would you be able to write it i nanother language afterwards if you so wished, from what you learned from the scheme implementation?
09:31:53 <Quadrescence> elderK: One common thing among lispers is writing his or her own little lisp-language
09:32:02 <elderK> hehe
09:32:03 <elderK> :)
09:32:10 <Quadrescence> elderK: Sure. I've been writing a language in pure C89.
09:32:19 <elderK> :P That's because we dare to scheme! :P
09:32:22 <Quadrescence> It's a pain in the ... everywhere.
09:32:42 <elderK> :) Aye, so you understand why I find it interesting then :P
09:32:58 <elderK> I figure 'evaluating each tiny part' over an dover again, would be a giant pain and in the end, far more complex.
09:33:13 <elderK> then say, generating some IR.
09:33:34 <Quadrescence> elderK: Well, the essence of lisp and friends is that everything breaks down to (function arg arg...)
09:33:37 <elderK> say, the lamba. Instead of interpreting the strings over and over... and such. Just create some odd representation that says 'this lambda, two slots for binding'...
09:34:02 <Quadrescence> And you recursively read until you find things that look like (f a1 a2 ...)
09:34:23 <elderK> aye, solve the terminals?
09:34:27 <elderK> if that is the righ tway to say?
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09:34:40 <elderK> solve the expressions that are self contained, as it were.
09:34:50 <Quadrescence> elderK: Oh, I see what you mean.
09:34:57 <elderK> Do it from the inside out.
09:34:58 <elderK> ?
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09:35:11 <Quadrescence> Well, you start on the outside, and read the lists!
09:35:20 <elderK> Tokenize? :)
09:35:30 <Quadrescence> If you find a list inside the list your reading, you read that list too
09:35:57 <Quadrescence> elderK: In lisp, there's little need to do a lot of tokenizing/parsing. Everything is already in the form you need it in.
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09:36:23 <elderK> Precisely why creating the interpreter in a lisplike would be far easier than doing it under something like C or Assembly or well, anything nonlispy.
09:36:24 <elderK> :p
09:36:37 <elderK> because the base abstractions are identical.
09:37:19 <Quadrescence> elderK: Essentially. Even if you were parsing C code, you'd turn it into something that structurally resembles lisp
09:37:24 <Quadrescence> (an abstract syntax tree)
09:37:50 <elderK> Aye, I've heard that term before (Abstract syntax tree), but I haven't found much really explaining them.
09:37:58 <elderK> I can imagine what one may look like :)
09:38:08 <Quadrescence> elderK: Lisp = abstract syntax trees
09:38:12 <elderK> just, subdividing some expression into subexpressions.
09:38:20 <Quadrescence> (root child1 child2 ...)
09:38:22 <elderK> until you can't subdivide anymore - then you evaluate.
09:38:28 <Quadrescence> Yes, exactly
09:38:38 <elderK> :)
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09:39:19 <Quadrescence> In C, we might have 1+2*5 ... but that's internally parsed to something like (+ 1 (* 2 5))
09:39:35 <elderK> Aye, where as if you were parsing that in C :P
09:39:40 <elderK> it would be vastly more complex
09:39:51 <Quadrescence> Parsing is. a. PAIN. in C.
09:40:06 <Quadrescence> That's the nice thing about using scheme/lisp to make an interpreter
09:40:17 <Quadrescence> You can just use the implementation's reader
09:40:25 <elderK> :) Aye.
09:40:26 <Quadrescence> And focus on the more important things.
09:40:36 <elderK> Like coffee and world domination
09:40:36 <elderK> :P
09:40:37 <elderK> lol
09:42:11 <Quadrescence> elderK: You can do intricate things with scheme/lisp. I'm writing a compiler/interpreter now, and I started off by writing a virtual machine and my own bytecode
09:42:22 <elderK> But hey man, after this cigarette, I've got to rearrange my room a little. :) Make the workspace feel a little less cluttered.
09:42:28 <Quadrescence> ;)
09:42:39 <elderK> :) Well, say, for the bytecode stuff.
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09:42:49 <elderK> Couldn't you have bytecodes that corresspond to the primitives in Lisp?
09:42:54 <elderK> say, if?
09:42:56 <elderK> define
09:42:57 <elderK> ?
09:43:03 <elderK> set!
09:43:17 <Quadrescence> elderK: You could if you wanted to.
09:43:23 <Quadrescence> I have more basic functions
09:43:29 <elderK> :) Care to elaborate?
09:43:32 <Quadrescence> PUSH, POP, CALL, etc.
09:43:50 <elderK> So, much like assembly.
09:44:08 <Quadrescence> Yes, it *is* assembly for my own virtual machine
09:44:38 <Quadrescence> I actually have an (assemble-code ...) function. :>
09:44:39 <elderK> so for the (if (< 3 4) this that) construct, you have simply have something corresponding to this:
09:45:20 <elderK> cmpl $3, $4
09:45:21 <elderK> jg <some_addr>
09:45:21 <elderK> THIS
09:45:21 <elderK> <some_addr>  THAT
09:45:37 <Quadrescence> Yeah, you could do that.
09:45:44 <Quadrescence> Any way you want to. :>
09:45:48 <elderK> :)
09:45:56 <elderK> I'm just trying to make sure my understanding is right :)
09:47:01 <elderK> alternatively, you could hav esomething like,   push $3 push $4 call <lessthan> <check return> <do something else>
09:47:12 <elderK> Right?
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09:48:06 <Quadrescence> elderK: That's sort of how I do it
09:48:34 <elderK> even better, you could just jump there and pass the IPs for the other branches to the <lessthan> function.
09:48:38 <elderK> so that it never even really returns
09:48:40 <elderK> just keep streaming along.
09:49:03 <Quadrescence> Or, you could do it naively, then optimize. :)
09:49:15 <elderK> :P which is the naive way?
09:49:16 <elderK> lol
09:49:29 <Quadrescence> I don't know, the slow way.
09:50:13 <Quadrescence> elderK: Maybe you should try to write a "calculator repl"
09:50:35 <elderK> I would, but I don't think I know enough about how to use Scheme fro that :)
09:50:41 <elderK> Couldn't write that yet in Scheme.
09:50:48 <Quadrescence> elderK: I bet you could.
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09:52:12 <elderK> '(* 3 4)   for example. you have your list. go through the cdrs, evaluate then back up, repeat?
09:52:40 <Quadrescence> elderK: Well, maybe you should make your own calculator assembly
09:52:53 <Quadrescence> then you're own little calculator virtual processor
09:52:55 <elderK> how do  you mean?
09:53:10 <elderK> oh, VM :)
09:55:26 <Quadrescence> INPUT: (* 3 (+ 2 2)) ==> '((push 2) (push 2) (call ADD2) (push 3) (call MUL2) (print)) ==> feed this assembly into your virtual machine ==> RESULT: 12
09:56:09 <elderK> aye :)
09:56:20 <elderK> Say Quadrescence, where abouts do you hail from man?
09:56:27 <Quadrescence> Minnesota, USA
09:56:45 <elderK> :) Woah.
09:56:48 <elderK> Quite some way away.
09:57:14 <Quadrescence> (Also, your virtual machine == an interpreter; an interpreter for ASM instructions, and maybe a stack on the side)
09:57:40 <elderK> It'd be kind of cool to write a emulator in Scheme
09:57:43 <elderK> beacuse you could just make macros.
09:57:44 <Quadrescence> And guess what, the virtual machine code looks almost /exactly/ like normal lisp/scheme interpreter code
09:57:45 <elderK> to translate.
09:58:06 <elderK> If you could do that?
09:58:12 <elderK> say, input: this that bacon
09:58:14 <elderK> ends up as :
09:58:22 <elderK> (this (that (bacon)))
09:58:23 <elderK> or something
09:59:15 <Quadrescence> You could do that
10:02:13 <elderK> :) This is fun
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10:03:56 <Quadrescence> elderK: It's even more fun when you actually write it!
10:04:20 <Quadrescence> The beauty of lisp/scheme is that you can write little things, play around in the repl until something works, then add it to your code
10:05:23 <elderK> Aye :D
10:05:26 <elderK> I found tha ttoo.
10:05:35 <elderK> It reminded my of BASIC back in the old days.
10:05:36 <elderK> You know?
10:05:44 <elderK> You could run what you were writing as you were writing it, play.
10:05:46 <elderK> It was fun.
10:06:14 <elderK> Where as with C or Assembly, <code> <compile> <link> <test> rinse, repeat.
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10:06:27 <elderK> just less streamlined.
10:06:35 <Quadrescence> Yep. I don't like that. I guess I'm a lisp fanboi now.
10:06:46 <elderK> I like both.
10:06:57 <elderK> They both have their purposes.
10:07:48 <Quadrescence> Yeah. I code a lot of C still.
10:08:00 <Quadrescence> But, I'm coding a lisp in C. ;)
10:08:57 <elderK> See, that would be fun.
10:09:00 <elderK> like, awesomely fun.
10:09:13 <elderK> but hey man, I'll be back shortly :) Clean time.
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10:54:40 <hkBst> r5rs string-ref
10:54:40 <specbot> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_498
10:54:42 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cd7mm2
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11:09:04 <elderK> Quadrescence: Hey dude!
11:09:06 <elderK> :P I
11:09:10 <elderK> I've returned from the void!
11:09:11 <elderK> :P
11:09:24 <elderK> For the time being, anyway.
11:09:24 <elderK> :)
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11:10:57 <sphex> hey. is there an OO system somewhat like CLOS, but where classes could optionally also have their own method namespaces?
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11:13:30 <sphex> cause designing all classes in your module to share the same first-class generics is hard.. let's go shopping!
11:14:07 <vixey> I don't think it's hard
11:17:19 <sphex> ok, I guess I must be the weird one then.
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11:20:51 <elderK> Hey bughunter2!
11:20:57 <bughunter2> hey elderK ;)
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11:30:21 <elderK> Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone could answer some questions about Chicken's define-record ?
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11:35:09 <elderK> Also, are there such things as Keyword arguments in Scheme?
11:36:51 <Mr-Cat> What is `keyword argument'?
11:37:19 <elderK> :) CL thing.
11:37:28 <elderK> like, (make-bst :leaf nil :key nil)
11:37:33 <elderK> rather than always having to provide arguments.
11:37:39 <elderK> default arguments and suchlike :)
11:37:52 <elderK> But it's okay, I'm just building that into my little test program :)
11:40:16 <Mr-Cat> elderK: I think, I've seen such things in a srfi... I'll try to find it
11:41:38 <elderK> :) Thanks Mr-cat.
11:43:34 <hkBst> r5rs call-with-input-port
11:43:34 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for call-with-input-port.
11:43:34 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Optional and named parameters re in srfi-89, It can be installed for chicken as an egg
11:43:42 <hkBst> r5rs call-with-input
11:43:43 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for call-with-input.
11:45:06 <vixey> elderK: no
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11:55:46 <hkBst> r5rs with-output-to-port
11:55:47 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for with-output-to-port.
11:56:01 <vixey> r5rs with-output-port
11:56:01 <specbot> Sorry, I couldn't find anything for with-output-port.
11:56:13 <vixey> r5rs write
11:56:13 <specbot> http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_622
11:56:16 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5dxt7x
11:58:50 <elderK> Hahaah, this is awesome fun.
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12:09:06 <elderK> Man, I need to find a better way to work with Scheme, terminal and vim just isn't cutting it.
12:09:24 <vixey> use paredit
12:09:31 <elderK> paredit?
12:09:34 <bughunter2> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ParEdit
12:09:55 <elderK> I don't use emacs?
12:09:59 <bughunter2> me neither
12:10:37 <vixey> ummmmmm
12:10:42 <elderK> http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/
12:10:44 <elderK> :)
12:10:48 <vixey> I thought I read "I need to find a better way to work with Scheme, terminal and vim just isn't cutting it"
12:11:16 <vixey> "I don't use emacs" seems to suggest that you aren't going to change what you already use
12:11:21 <vixey> so you are content with vim
12:11:35 <sjamaan> elderK: Switching, if only for scheme code, is a good idea
12:11:50 <elderK> Is Scheme happy to cooperate with Slime?
12:11:55 <sjamaan> No
12:12:02 <sjamaan> There's slime48 for scheme48, though
12:12:12 <elderK> :/ damn.
12:13:52 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Try quack
12:14:14 <Mr-Cat> http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/
12:15:16 <sjamaan> I don't find quack particularly useful
12:15:22 <sjamaan> It just adds a couple of menus, afaik
12:15:36 <sjamaan> Where paredit adds a whole new way of editing Scheme code
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12:17:47 <elderK> Out of curiosity, how do you guys interface your interpreter with Scheme?
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12:18:11 <sjamaan> What interpreter?
12:19:17 <elderK> Chicken atm.
12:19:22 <elderK> But I may move to mzscheme if it suits?
12:19:41 <sjamaan> I don't understand the question
12:19:55 <sjamaan> You're asking if I "interface csi with scheme"?
12:20:48 <Mr-Cat> sjaaman: Yes, but those menus are quite useful
12:21:30 <elderK> sjamaan: WhatI mean is,
12:21:36 <elderK> if you use Emacs or wahtever to editor your Scheme code.
12:21:42 <elderK> When you want to test it,
12:21:51 <elderK> do you say, start up an interpreter by hand and type (load "myfile.scm")
12:22:01 <elderK> or do you press some key, and just... see it all running in emacs or something.
12:22:02 <elderK> )
12:22:07 <sjamaan> The latter, mostly
12:22:22 <elderK> :) So, I am curious as to how I can accomplish that too :)
12:22:24 <sjamaan> Unless I have a testsuite, which I usually run in full from a terminal
12:22:32 <elderK> because I have to have a terminal open, lot sof switching
12:22:41 <sjamaan> emacs does that automatically with its scheme mode
12:22:41 <Mr-Cat> elderK: quack adds this stuff also
12:22:53 <sjamaan> Mr-Cat: Actually, it does not. It gets this from the basic scheme mode in emacs
12:23:01 <sjamaan> It just extends on that
12:23:28 <sjamaan> cmuscheme.el iirc
12:23:43 <sjamaan> paredit also builds on this, adding more s-expr based commands
12:24:09 <sjamaan> elderK: In emacs, just type M-x run-scheme
12:24:27 <sjamaan> elderK: Then, split screen and type C-c C-e to eval the expression under the cursor
12:24:57 <sjamaan> The expression is sent to the scheme interpreter you started with run-scheme
12:28:38 <Mr-Cat> What all those seem to lack (for me) is one key combination, that would save the file, switch to the interpreter buffer and load that file (i.e with ,l in chicken)
12:29:09 *sjamaan* uses C-x h, C-c C-r for that
12:29:19 <sjamaan> (mark whole region, send region to interpreter)
12:31:43 <Mr-Cat> sjaaman: well, seems, if i bind a sequence `C-x C-s C-x h c-c C-r C-x o' to ane combination - that will do
12:32:05 <Mr-Cat> s/c-c/C-c
12:32:09 <Mr-Cat> s/ane/one
12:32:51 <sjamaan> You don't have to save in order to be able to do that
12:32:59 <sjamaan> That's the beauty of it
12:34:12 <Mr-Cat> sjaaman: You mean `C-x C-s'? That's just for me - I like to save after each more or less significant change (especially if that change is worth loading it in an interpreter)
12:34:27 <sjamaan> k
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12:36:57 <elderK> Can anyone recommend an interpreter that is strictly R5Rs?
12:37:25 <ecraven> scheme48 used to be
12:37:35 <ecraven> not sure whether it still is
12:37:40 <sjamaan> Possibly mit-scheme?
12:37:59 <elderK> It must sound a little silly, but, the deviation between implementations is confusing.
12:38:09 <sjamaan> Yeah
12:38:26 <elderK> It'd be handy you know, if there was 'one scheme'
12:38:27 <elderK> :p
12:38:31 <sjamaan> Different implementations focus on different things
12:38:32 <elderK> but then, I guess innovation would falter.
12:38:38 <elderK> Aye.
12:41:31 <elderK> Sweet, Got a neat addon for Chicken, makes using it a lot nicer :)
12:42:14 <sjamaan> what addon?
12:42:35 <sjamaan> PS, there's also a chicken-specific channel here: #chicken
12:42:46 <elderK> :) Readline
12:43:00 <sjamaan> You don't need readline if you're using emacs
12:44:41 <elderK> As for emacs, I'm downloading the sources.
12:46:29 <elderK> holy crap, 38m
12:46:58 <sjamaan> heh
12:47:13 <sjamaan> A lot of that is lisp code, for various editing modes
12:47:21 <sjamaan> (and gnus, a newsreader, and whatnot)
12:47:22 <elderK> :P I'm on dialup
12:47:30 <sjamaan> ouch!
12:47:33 <elderK> 38M is like, really really painful in my world.
12:47:59 <sjamaan> How did you get your OS? Doesn't it include emacs binaries?
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14:07:50 <foof> Oh, lovely, spammers that subscribe to mailing lists :/
14:09:26 <sjamaan> Bastards!
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14:36:40 <elderK1> :P Hey guys
14:36:43 <elderK1> I wrote my first little scheme program :p
14:36:53 <elderK1> And, I was wondering if you could tell me how I could improve it :P
14:37:06 <elderK1> All it is, is a little program that searches through a list of cons - looking for certain keys.
14:37:12 <elderK1> It works like an association list.
14:37:30 <elderK1> '((this_sym "this value") (this_other_sym "this other value"))
14:38:05 <elderK1> (get-symbol-assoc <the-list> <the-sym>) (returns #f is the lsit isnt actualyl a list or it cannot find the symbol :))
14:38:46 <elderK1> http://paste.lisp.org/display/77718#1 :)
14:38:47 <elderK1> ^_^
14:38:48 <elderK1> lol
14:38:54 <elderK1> It's funny but just writing this was really fun
14:38:55 <elderK1> lol
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14:39:17 <elderK1> could have probably used an or.
14:39:19 <elderK1> *ponders*
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15:00:36 <lde> elderK1: (symbol-in-list? '() 23)
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15:13:08 <leppie> yawn, what a long wedding
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15:13:36 <elderK1> Aloha
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15:36:23 <rotty> Riastradh: in your pathname library, origins are filesystem specific (?), and a relative "upward" path (e.g. "../../foo") expressed with a origin that's a list of BACK symbols (on UNIX) right? is the concept of an "upward" relative path really file-system specific? Or should BACK work across file systems?
15:36:46 <rotty> s/expressed/is expressed/
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15:39:30 <rotty> (I'm not asking about the actual implementation, but about the concepts, here)
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15:49:00 <synx> There are a few obscure filesystems that are non-hierarchical but still have components to their paths. For those BACK would not have a well defined meaning...
15:51:55 <elderK> Man, syntax-rules is crazy.
15:52:01 <elderK> Does anyone have any nice links explaining syntax-rules ?
15:52:58 <synx> The first rule about syntax-rules is you do not talk about syntax-rules
15:53:04 <sepult> SLP
15:53:13 <sepult> speech and language processing ?
15:53:29 <elderK> haha, really syn?
15:53:33 <elderK> kind of like fightclub?
15:53:33 <elderK> :P
15:54:19 <synx> oh yes, totally :p
15:55:13 <synx> seriously though I'm convinced it is hard to explain syntax-rules because English doesn't have good syntax rules for talking about syntax.
15:55:21 <synx> It's like my favorite sentence goes...
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15:56:09 <synx> 'Wouldn't the sentence "I want to put a hyphen between the words Fish and and and and and Chips in my 'Fish and Chips' sign" have been clearer if quotation marks had been placed before Fish, and between Fish and and, and and and and, and and and and, and and and and, and and and and, and and and Chips, as well as after Chips?'
15:56:12 <sladegen> http://www.xs4all.nl/~hipster/lib/scheme/gauche/define-syntax-primer.txt
15:56:52 <sepult> opp
15:57:07 <sepult> obsessive possessive psychopath
15:57:27 <synx> redrum! redrum!
15:57:30 <elderK> thanks sladegen
15:57:32 <elderK> HAAHAHA
15:57:33 <elderK> murder
15:57:33 <elderK> lol
15:57:36 <elderK> Synx, you're cool.
15:57:37 <elderK> :P
15:57:46 <synx> ._.
15:57:50 <elderK> :P:P
15:57:52 <elderK> Caffeine.
15:57:52 <elderK> :p
15:57:53 <elderK> I love it
15:58:11 <synx> http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/pattern-macros.html might also be of assistance
15:58:38 <elderK> I found an interesting slide from some uni, I'm flipping through it now.
15:58:45 <elderK> Totally going to need a cigarette to get through it though :P
15:58:46 <elderK> lol
15:58:50 <rotty> synx: do you have an example of such an FS?
15:58:58 <elderK> So, is it true, most people run from the sight of syntax-rules ?
15:59:33 <synx> rotty: http://code.google.com/p/xtagfs/
16:00:26 <synx> elderK: I try to avoid custom syntax, or keep it as clear as possible, but it's not exactly terrifying. Just tricky.
16:01:11 <p1dzkl> elderK: only when making non-trivial syntax, which is rare
16:01:30 <sladegen> and because it's tricky you should use it as often as pointer's to functions in C.
16:01:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme
16:01:49 <elderK> o_O I used pfs all the time?
16:03:08 <sladegen> just a figure of speech not a rule of the holly tables.
16:03:09 <rotty> synx: since this maps the tags into a UNIX FS namespace, I guess there'd be a reasonable definition of BACK...
16:04:03 <arcfide> What is so hard about SYNTAX-RULES?
16:04:15 <synx> rotty: Well, which tag do you want to eliminate from the path? The rightmost path component doesn't have any different status than the others.
16:04:25 <arcfide> When I first started to learn it, I thought it was the easiest and most natural macro system I had seen in a long time.
16:04:57 <synx> Well sure it's the best macro system I've seen, but it's still changing the syntax.
16:05:59 <synx> I mean, some people write syntax rules that produce syntax rules which change the syntax while you change the syntax so you can argh while you argh.
16:06:32 <synx> And some people just use it to simplify a complex define expression. That's not hard.
16:08:07 <elderK> Man, Armin van Buuren rules.
16:08:22 <elderK> arcfide :) Perhaps you could help me to understand it :)
16:08:30 <elderK> :D And hey, it's good to see you here again man.
16:08:31 <elderK> :)
16:08:36 *elderK* happily sips his coffee.
16:14:20 <elderK> arcfide: What's the difference between a proper and improper list?
16:14:51 <synx> eh, Armin van Buuren. Anyone sounds like a good singer if you add an echo effect.
16:15:46 <sladegen> chemical bros trump anything anyway anytime anywhere anyhow
16:16:15 <sladegen> incubot: what's your drug?
16:16:17 <incubot> Some implement the less solid ones, and few to none implement the iffy ones, or those written in a drug-induced haze
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16:16:54 <elderK> heh
16:17:01 <elderK> Anyone here a fan of Elucidate?
16:17:05 <elderK> or Temple1?
16:17:29 *sladegen* asks google... not really.
16:19:59 <synx> elderK: Try (shared ((x (list* 1 2 3 x))) x)
16:20:12 <synx> Take the cdr of that for a while.
16:20:47 <synx> rudybot: eval (define l (shared ((x (list* 1 2 3 x))) x))
16:20:48 <rudybot> synx: your scheme sandbox is ready
16:20:55 <synx> rudybot: eval (cdr l)
16:20:56 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: #0=(2 3 1 . #0#)
16:21:01 <synx> rudybot: eval (cddr l)
16:21:02 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: #0=(3 1 2 . #0#)
16:21:08 <synx> rudybot: eval (cdd-dr l)
16:21:08 <rudybot> synx: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: cdd-dr in module: 'program
16:21:10 <synx> oops
16:21:14 <synx> rudybot: eval (cdddr l)
16:21:14 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: #0=(1 2 3 . #0#)
16:21:35 <synx> rudybot: eval (eq? (cdddr l) l)
16:21:35 <rudybot> synx: ; Value: #t
16:22:15 <arcfide> elderK: What has you confused about Syntax Rules?
16:22:31 <elderK> arcfide: I think I'm starting to get the hand of i tnow :)
16:22:34 <elderK> Just needed to reread some things :)
16:22:42 <arcfide> As for proper and improper lists...
16:23:26 <arcfide> proper_list := () | (elem . proper_list) where elem is some random Scheme object.
16:23:42 <arcfide> improper_list := elem | (elem . improper_list).
16:24:07 <arcfide> Where the first elem there is not ().
16:24:24 <arcfide> s/elem/elem_not_nil/
16:24:46 <arcfide> elderK: Does that make sense?
16:25:36 <slom_> arcfide: is there some requirement that proper lists finite?
16:25:48 <slom_> s/is/isn't
16:26:00 <arcfide> slom_: Yes.
16:26:08 <arcfide> slom_: You can't have circular lists.
16:27:24 <elderK> so basically arcfide, a proper list is one that actually terminates/
16:27:30 <arcfide> elderK: No.
16:27:32 <elderK> and follows the standard list ... idea?
16:27:36 <elderK> x->y->z
16:27:42 <arcfide> rudybot: eval (list? '(1 2 3))
16:27:43 <rudybot> arcfide: your sandbox is ready
16:27:43 <rudybot> arcfide: ; Value: #t
16:27:47 <elderK> like, '(0 . 1) would be improper?
16:27:51 <arcfide> rudybot: eval (list? '(1 2 3 . 4))
16:27:51 <rudybot> arcfide: ; Value: #f
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16:28:11 <elderK> rudybot: eval (list? '(1 . 2))
16:28:12 <rudybot> elderK: your sandbox is ready
16:28:13 <rudybot> elderK: ; Value: #f
16:28:26 borism [n=boris@195.50.200.70] has joined #scheme
16:28:28 <elderK> rudybot: eval (list? '(1 2))
16:28:28 <rudybot> elderK: ; Value: #t
16:28:31 <elderK> :)
16:28:35 <elderK> Gotcha
16:28:44 <arcfide> rudybot: eval (list? '(1 . (2 . (3 . ()))))
16:28:44 <rudybot> arcfide: ; Value: #t
16:28:46 <elderK> man, rudybot is cool.
16:28:55 <arcfide> rudybot: eval (list? '(1 . (2 . 3)))
16:28:55 <rudybot> arcfide: ; Value: #f
16:29:13 <elderK> becuase it doesnt link in the same way.
16:29:18 <elderK> right?
16:29:19 <sladegen> proper list is like proper C string. improper list just terminates...
16:29:20 <arcfide> elderK: Using pairs instead of the shorthand list notation is more enlightening.
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16:29:52 <slom_> rudybot: eval (list? #0=(1 . #0#))
16:29:53 <arcfide> elderK: a proper list is one whose CDR of the final pair is '().
16:29:53 <rudybot> slom_: your sandbox is ready
16:29:54 <rudybot> slom_: error: eval:1:7: read: #..= expressions not allowed in read-syntax mode
16:30:06 <elderK> instead of the cdr linking them, the cdr points to a cons cell - but the cdr of the cons cell isnt a valid link to another pair, or nil. right?
16:30:09 <elderK> it just dies unexpectedly.
16:30:12 <synx> I don't think (1 . (2 . 3)) is a list...
16:30:18 <elderK> It's not
16:30:50 <elderK> [1:[2:3]]
16:30:55 <elderK> ^_^
16:30:59 <elderK> I understand now, thank you arcfide.
16:30:59 <synx> Oh, they call it a "dotted list"
16:30:59 <elderK> :)
16:31:07 <slom_> rudybot: eval (shared (cons 1 x) x)
16:31:08 <rudybot> slom_: error: eval:1:0: shared: bad syntax in: (shared (cons 1 x) x)
16:31:21 <arcfide> minion: Do you have eval?
16:31:21 <minion> here i am, brain the size of a planet, and all i do is answer your silly questions all day... maybe you have time to have eval
16:31:23 <elderK> slom_: Shared means they share the same object?
16:31:33 <slom_> rudybot: eval (shared ((x (cons 1 x))) x)
16:31:34 <rudybot> slom_: ; Value: #0=(1 . #0#)
16:31:46 <slom_> rudybot: eval (list? (shared ((x (cons 1 x))) x))
16:31:47 <rudybot> slom_: ; Value: #f
16:31:54 <elderK> rudybot: (define x 1) (define y 1) (define z y) (shared x y) (shared y z)
16:31:54 <rudybot> elderK: eh?  Try "rudybot: help".
16:31:57 <elderK> damn
16:31:57 <elderK> :P
16:32:06 <synx> http://docs.plt-scheme.org/srfi-std/srfi-1.html#ImproperLists
16:32:10 <elderK> :D
16:32:25 <sladegen> rudybot: eval eval
16:32:26 <rudybot> sladegen: your sandbox is ready
16:32:26 <rudybot> sladegen: ; Value: #<procedure:eval>
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16:32:33 <synx> elderK: start it with 'eval' for rudybot
16:32:57 <elderK> Oh, right. Thank you
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16:33:06 <elderK> Im expecting them all to come back true.
16:33:10 <elderK> since 1 is the same number.
16:33:11 <slom_> elderK: shared created circular data
16:33:17 <elderK> rudybot: eval (define x 1) (define y 1) (define z y) (shared x y) (shared y z)
16:33:18 <rudybot> elderK: your sandbox is ready
16:33:18 <rudybot> elderK: error: eval:1:39: shared: bad syntax in: (shared x y)
16:33:27 borism_ [n=boris@195.50.207.35] has joined #scheme
16:33:40 <elderK>  (define x 1) (define y 1) (define z y) (shared x y) (shared? y z)
16:33:52 <elderK> oh, right.
16:33:53 <elderK> :)
16:33:55 <elderK> Man, thats cool
16:34:05 <synx> shared is a special syntax.
16:34:08 *elderK* pets rudybot on the head, decides to leave him in peace for the time being
16:34:14 <sladegen> rudybot: doc shared
16:34:20 <rudybot> sladegen: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/shared.html#(form._((lib._scheme%2Fshared..ss)._shared))
16:34:33 <elderK> thanks sladegen
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16:35:30 <synx> (shared ((a something-using-a) (b something-using-b)) (+ a b etc...))
16:35:43 <synx> It's kind of like letrec...
16:36:17 <sladegen> np, data is still just data not code and vice versa. and it's all not full of stars but shitty NP-complexity...
16:37:38 <elderK> *nods*
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16:43:24 <synx> I don't get it
16:43:54 <synx> code is data, and what does 2001 have to do with NP complexity
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16:47:12 <elderK> btw guys, how long have ye been dubious schemers? :P
16:48:27 *sladegen* is not sure he is schemer at all.
16:48:44 <elderK> oh, whyfore sladegen?
16:49:14 <sladegen> catholicism.
16:49:44 <elderK> Haha.
16:49:51 <elderK> :P I don't follow but that alone, makes me laugh
16:49:51 <elderK> :P
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16:53:54 <sladegen> ok, had to look that up in the dictionary, tha curse of being bilingual i keep forgeting words in both languages. false modesty... for me it coincides with catholicism. but i think we are all schemers from birth just like we are agnostic. only later are we bend into the imperative shape. har har har.
16:54:14 <elderK> heh
16:56:21 <arcfide> I have been a degenerate, industry-heretic Schemer for what, seven years?
16:56:31 <arcfide> Maybe eight.
16:56:38 <arcfide> Maybe slightly less....
16:57:13 <bughunter2> arcfide: interesting.. Do you use any other more 'mainstream' languages like C and C++ too? or even Java?
16:57:17 <bughunter2> and, what do you think of those?
16:58:00 <arcfide> bughunter2: I use C, and I teach Java, I write perl if you pay me enough, and I'll use Javascript.
16:58:14 <bughunter2> do you *like* those languages too? ;)
16:58:14 <arcfide> I have used QBASIC and Delphi, but those may or may not count now.
16:58:27 <bughunter2> and do you know/like C++?
16:58:38 <arcfide> bughunter2: Need you ask?
16:58:46 <bughunter2> Yep, I'm interested :)
16:58:49 <arcfide> I like C, such as it is.
16:59:00 <bughunter2> since, learning lisp/scheme seems to change programmers, I heard :)
16:59:02 <elderK> ^_^ I like C too.
16:59:26 <arcfide> On the other hand, the only use I have for C is using it to interface with C libraries so that I can use them in Scheme.
16:59:30 ejs [n=eugen@133-104-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme
16:59:43 <elderK> arcfide: What implementation do you prefer?
16:59:59 *arcfide* chuckles with a sinister irony.
17:00:05 <bughunter2> =P
17:00:16 <arcfide> elderK: You're new here, huh? :-)
17:00:22 <elderK> Yup :)
17:00:28 <bughunter2> so am I :)
17:00:29 <elderK> But I like it here.
17:00:31 *bughunter2* waves
17:00:34 <sladegen> he is chez schemer.
17:00:45 <elderK> Chez's FFI seemed really, really nice.
17:00:52 *arcfide* bows with his best, most aristocratic flourish as he speaks with a heavy accent:
17:01:17 <arcfide> Je prefer le grand Che Scheme.
17:01:23 <arcfide> s/Che/Chez/
17:01:27 <bughunter2> :P
17:01:50 <elderK> hm, high level macros arent supported ?
17:01:51 <elderK> weird.
17:01:56 <arcfide> elderK: I like Chez's FFI, but it has pitfalls.
17:02:16 <sladegen> synx: http://xkcd.com/224/
17:02:33 <Daemmerung> I eagerly await the release of "Ché Scheme."  Revolutionary!
17:02:54 <arcfide> elderK: If you want a laugh, check out the "Residence Directory." <gopher://gopher.sacrideo.us:70/0tech/scheme_experts.txt>
17:02:57 <bughunter2> XD
17:02:58 -!- jwh335 [n=will@d-24-233-229-66.cpe.metrocast.net] has quit ["Leaving."]
17:03:26 <sladegen> synx: but i also found this while searching for the former link: http://xkcd.com/312/
17:03:34 <elderK> What pitfalls, arcfide?
17:03:48 <elderK> And arcfide, I dont get what 'Error: (define-syntax) during expansion of (define-syntax ...) - highlevel macros are not supported
17:03:49 <elderK> ' means?
17:04:16 <arcfide> bughunter2: As for languages I like, I find Javascript, Scheme, and C relatively pleasant. I find perl "useful" but I don't like C++ or Java or Delphi, or anything with .NET associations.
17:04:31 <bughunter2> yet you teach Java ;)
17:04:36 <bughunter2> maybe  you like teaching it?
17:04:41 <arcfide> elderK: lisppaste the code you are trying.
17:04:51 <arcfide> bughunter2: No, I am forced to teach it.
17:04:55 <bughunter2> aw
17:05:01 <bughunter2> oh well
17:05:07 <bughunter2> I agree about .NET
17:05:17 <bughunter2> it's an infection
17:05:38 <sladegen> elderK: chicken? you need to load some syntax egg...
17:06:14 vaasu [n=yt@123.176.16.43] has joined #scheme
17:06:20 <arcfide> elderK: Being a dynamic FFI, Chez's system does not parse, nor does it intend to parse, header file, which would allow it to gain precise type information. Instead, you use static sets of pre-defined types, which are general enough to be mostly useful, but which may not always be perfect. Additionally, special things must be done to handle special things like CONSTANTS, though I now have a way of doing this.
17:06:39 <arcfide> lisppaste: url
17:06:39 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
17:06:45 <arcfide> elderK: ^^^
17:07:21 *sladegen* afkes.
17:07:29 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.255.147] has joined #scheme
17:07:31 <bughunter2> arcfide: just out of curiousity, do you only like scheme or are you ok with other lisp-likes? e.g. CL? or just neutral about the question?
17:07:58 <synx> It's technically impossible for any FFI to parse C code, because C functions do not reliably indicate what kind of data they expect.
17:08:15 <vaasu> in plt scheme 4.1, when languate is set to 'pretty big', set-cdr! is undefined. shall i (define set-cdr! set-mcdr!) ?
17:08:17 <arcfide> bughunter2: CL is okay, and useful, but it doesn't have the same qualities that make Scheme my language of choice, such as hygeniec macros, simplicity, consistency, and other such things.
17:08:34 <elderK> arcfide: Bottom of here :)
17:08:35 <elderK> http://paste.lisp.org/display/77718#2
17:08:36 <bughunter2> thanks :)
17:08:52 <synx> Do you pass the address to a structure? An array of structures? Does it return a null terminated sequence of characters? Does it return characters with no terminator, and a length parameter?
17:09:51 <arcfide> elderK: That macro runs fine in Chez Scheme.
17:10:08 <elderK> chicken screams at me about it :/
17:10:13 <elderK> and hey, is Chez FOSS?
17:10:17 <synx> Is the void pointer going to be cast to a character array and written to, or is it going to be preserved as user data to be cast to something in the callback?
17:10:36 <arcfide> synx: Aye, you can't always get the right thing, but dynamic FFIs aren't always the easiest. Still, I like it more than the others I have seen.
17:12:28 <elderK> 'Ah, petite chez is freeware.
17:12:30 <elderK> but chez itself isn't.
17:12:32 <synx> arcfide: Well in most FFIs you can specify all that, but... obviously the C programmers will never have specified that, or to be more accurate the only way they have to specify is using natural language in a comment.
17:12:35 *arcfide* laughs hysterically.
17:12:57 <arcfide> elderK: Oh, that's a good one, FOSS, *hahaha*!
17:13:04 <synx> So when I write a FFI interface to some C library, I have to rewrite all the function signatures, since I can do so exactly, but the C programmers cannot.
17:13:37 <arcfide> synx: In most dynamic FFIs, you can't always precisely rewrite the signature, though you can get close enough.
17:13:48 <synx> Is Petite Chez freeware as in free beer, or freeware as in freedom?
17:14:09 <synx> arcfide: really? maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "dynamic" FFI...
17:14:10 <arcfide> synx: Free to use, but you ain't gettin' the source.
17:14:20 <Daemmerung> vaasu: (require r5rs)
17:14:24 <elderK> free beer.
17:16:07 <synx> Ah, so free beer. Bleah.
17:16:09 <arcfide> synx: For example, a function may define some new type, a HANDLE or some other type of object that the C programmer would not have to examine closely to use. In a dyanmic FFI, you can't use "HANDLE," but rather, you would have to go into the headers, which could be different for each platform, and find out the underlying type, such as u_uint64_t, or char *, or void *, or blah.
17:16:17 <synx> I bet it's warm too.
17:16:20 <arcfide> synx: People worship FOSS too much, IMO.
17:16:52 <elderK> I'd agree with that, actually. And I use FOSS exclusively.
17:16:56 <elderK> must sound odd.
17:16:57 <elderK> :P
17:17:47 <bughunter2> amen
17:17:50 <arcfide> synx: With a dynamic FFI, you can get around things like CONSTANTs not being easily expanded by using expand time evaluation of a compile time only C stub, which is actually easy to do, but you can't do that with the typedefs, and you have to go into those by hand.
17:17:52 <synx> I don't worship FOSS, but I'm really sick of all those smarmy used car lot sunday coupon projects that claim they're good because they're free.
17:18:12 <bughunter2> amen again
17:18:14 <vaasu> er.. in that case, by (require r5rs), open-input-file is shadowed with r5rs version, instead of plt version...
17:18:37 <arcfide> synx: I agree with that too.
17:19:00 <arcfide> synx: Petite is basically the free runtime environment for Chez.
17:19:25 <Daemmerung> vaasu: then use scheme/mpair instead.
17:19:32 <Daemmerung> which is set-mcdr! et al.
17:19:50 <arcfide> synx: It just so happens, though, that it is a mostly complete Scheme system.
17:20:12 <synx> I think it would be possible to write a C parser that figured out the value of all those constants and such, though it'd have to at some point infer the size of an "unsigned int" say. But there aren't all that many "built-in" C types like that.
17:20:43 <vaasu> the thing is.. i use srfi 43 (vector library).. their assoc returns a pair, which its cdr cannot be changed by set-mcdr! function for some reason..
17:20:52 <synx> Or yeah, a C stub that returns sizeof(whateveritis)
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17:21:02 <arcfide> synx: Yeah, but it's annoying. Riastradh is doing something like that, if I recall, but for me, I get by pretty well just having a mechanism for constants, and I leave the typedefs to manual work.
17:21:21 <synx> If it's 8 bytes long, and you cast it to an int64, then whatever it is, at least you won't segfault.
17:21:34 <vaasu> the code used to run on mz v352 without any problems..
17:21:51 <Daemmerung> That's because that impl of assoc returns a pair, not a mutable pair.  Aliasing set-mcdr! to set-cdr! won't change that.
17:22:23 <vaasu> ow.. but that works in mz 352...
17:22:29 *Daemmerung* shrugs
17:22:32 <arcfide> vaasu: Welcome to PLT>
17:22:39 <vaasu> i guess i should write my own assoc..
17:22:42 <Daemmerung> Old software is old.
17:22:55 <synx> C structures on the other hand are horrible and impossible to figure out without some kind of guesswork. I don't think any parser can deal with that in a stable fashion.
17:23:36 <synx> So you'd have to write a sizeof for those... and they'd still be opaque because you can't tell where the structure members align.
17:23:43 <arcfide> synx: You can however allocate and use structures in mass with size-of declarations.
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17:23:59 <arcfide> synx: Often that's all you need, with the help of a few accessors.
17:23:59 <elderK> arcfide, macros freaking /rule/
17:24:08 <arcfide> elderK: Don't abuse your newfound power.
17:24:14 <synx> accessors, being C functions too?
17:24:32 <arcfide> elderK: Procedural abstraction and procedural methods are usually superior to macro based solutions.
17:24:37 <arcfide> synx: Yes.
17:25:13 <arcfide> So, you have two stub files, a compile time one, and a runtime one. The runtime contains data manipulation and accessors, and the compile time has constants like sizes and magic numbers.
17:25:16 <Daemmerung> There is a list->mlist which may help.  If you're moving from 352 to 4.1, you should take a little while to familiarize yourself with the many changes that have taken place over the intervening years.
17:25:20 <arcfide> or magic values.
17:25:26 <synx> hmm...
17:25:47 <arcfide> The compile time never has to be distributed, and all references to it disappear.
17:26:00 <synx> Still seems messy to access structure members by wasting time calling a C function. Better to get the exact offset of each member.
17:26:21 <arcfide> synx: True, but it is expedient.
17:26:31 <arcfide> When that speed becomes an issues, then that's important.
17:28:25 <synx> It'd be just as easy to write er... offsetters that calculated it compile time, and then you could just access the structure via the raw numbers.
17:28:36 <synx> I think there's ways to get the offset of a structure member in C at least.
17:29:00 <arcfide> synx: Well, yeah. ;-) Get the difference between two addresses.
17:29:11 <synx> ((uintptr_t)&s)-((uintptr_t)&s->member)
17:29:34 *synx* huggles stdint.h
17:30:00 <synx> stdint.h is what C types should have been.
17:32:11 *bughunter2* agrees
17:32:24 <elderK> Amen
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17:49:39 <synx> huh
17:49:53 <synx> foof, I found a few little errors in your html-parser
17:50:38 <foof> oh?
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17:52:43 <foof> Give me test cases and I'll fix them :)
17:52:45 <synx> Yeah and one big one I can't fix x.x
17:52:55 <elderK> :P Totally got to try and make Vim more suitable for Lispaciousness.
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17:53:17 <synx> But many of your if statements have no else clauses. That causes plt to break, because plt is anal about that. I'd just put a (void) as else, for portability.
17:53:36 <elderK> It'd be so, so, so awesome if I could like, get the same kind of highlighting/mouse-coloring-stuff as lisp paste.
17:53:37 <foof> ...
17:53:37 <elderK> in Vim.
17:53:41 <foof> (void) isn't portable
17:53:53 <foof> The html-parser, however, is fully portable R5RS.
17:53:55 <synx> oh, um...
17:53:59 <synx> something then! :|
17:54:02 <synx> 42
17:54:24 <synx> (if a b) is technically undefinable...
17:54:50 <synx> plt is the only scheme that complains about it though that I know of. The rest just trump up some dummy value.
17:55:26 <foof> synx: It is specifically allowed in R5RS.
17:55:32 <synx> plt has the more flexible (when) statement for when you don't care about an else clause... not sure if that's R5RS though.
17:55:42 <foof>  - syntax: if <test> <consequent> <alternate>
17:55:43 <foof>  - syntax: if <test> <consequent>
17:55:50 <synx> allowed, but poorly defined. What would (display (if #f 3)) display?
17:56:16 <foof> Something unspecified :)
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17:56:53 <synx> Right, so it's safer to specify something. For plt's sake.
17:56:54 <foof> What would (display (when #f 3)) display?
17:57:05 <synx> #<void>
17:57:18 <synx> when specifically returns void when the test is false.
17:58:08 <synx> Anyway change that or not, whatever you like. The next one's a bug though I think...
17:58:18 <sepult> can someone give me some paste sites ?
17:58:22 <sepult> the url's i mean
17:58:30 <synx> lisppaste: url
17:58:30 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
17:59:01 <elderK> paste.lsip.org
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17:59:02 <elderK> :)
17:59:16 <synx> anyway in html-attr->string, it assumes the value is the (cdr) of the attr. But if I recall SXML has it set up as (@ (name value)) not (@ (name . value))
17:59:31 <sepult> thank you all
17:59:57 <synx> So when you say html->sxml you produce (@ (name value)) but when you try to sxml->html that, it dies saying that `(,value) isn't a string.
18:00:11 <foof> oops
18:00:25 <synx> It's a one letter correction ^.^;
18:00:45 <foof> I originally wrote the parser to use (name . value) because I didn't like the idea of using an extra cons cell for every single attribute.
18:01:02 <synx> Eh, yeah...
18:01:14 <foof> I then decided to go for portability with SSAX, and changed it over, but I guess I missed that function.
18:01:33 <synx> ok
18:01:56 <synx> One could always write their own parser to get a more compact or useful document model.
18:01:57 <foof> Of course, since `@' isn't portable to begin with, I may just come up with something completely different :)
18:02:38 <synx> Yeaah I don't like @ much. It's cheesy.
18:02:40 <klutometis> foof: where's your html parser, btw?
18:02:53 <foof> http://synthcode.com/scheme/html-parser.scm
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18:05:15 <klutometis> foof: i notice you're doing a lot of char-by-char parsing by hand; didn't Riastradh come up with some kind of parsing framework for scheme, though?
18:05:21 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme
18:06:23 <foof> klutometis: It's a standalone file: (load "html-parser.scm") should work in any R5RS Scheme, which puts constraints on what I use.
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18:06:52 <synx> There's um... one more error, though
18:07:45 <synx> woah, lisppaste is down!
18:09:07 <klutometis> foof: yeah; that's nice, actually
18:09:28 <elderK> heya klutometis!
18:10:33 <vaasu> hi.. in plt scheme how can i shadow existing r5rs functions ? defining them yeilds 'define-values: cannot change constant identifier: string-copy'
18:11:45 <synx> foof: http://pastebin.com/m771684cc
18:11:51 <synx> That hangs while parsing.
18:13:29 <p1dzkl> vaasu: you have to change some option in the language settings
18:13:58 <vaasu> ooh.. found.. thanks
18:14:27 <foof> synx: Not for me.
18:15:06 <synx> eek, really?
18:15:12 <Riastradh> rotty, I believe the intent of `back' components in a pathname's origin was purely syntactic, with a heuristic kludge of assuming that a Unix pathname beginning with `../' is meant to be interpreted syntactically, not semantically.  (That's probably a mistake.)
18:15:32 <synx> I can't get the (html->sxml) of that document at all.
18:15:57 <synx> Not that it's exactly HTML, but... I didn't want to copy in the entire DTD of XHTML so I picked an easier document.
18:16:26 <foof> synx: It returns an empty list.
18:19:00 <synx> I can't help but notice in your read-decl section, if it doesn't match anything it will always infinitely loop, peeking the same character over and over again.
18:19:55 <synx> In fact... sticking a (read-char) in there fixes it. Woo.
18:20:19 <elderK> Hey for Lisp, do you guys prefer monospaced or proportional fonts? :P
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18:20:47 <synx> http://pastebin.com/m7c545c6e is the result.
18:21:13 <synx> elderK: monospaced... sans serif :p
18:21:28 <foof> synx: I'm about to go to sleep.
18:21:46 <synx> oh, well sometime later then foof.
18:21:48 <foof> mail me test cases (or patches if you want)
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18:22:07 <synx> erk... email broken, sorry
18:22:12 <foof> ...
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18:22:20 <elderK> synx: :P So, you don't use monospaced?
18:22:39 <synx> elderK: I used monospaced font, without serifs.
18:23:20 <elderK> I'm looking fo ra decent font.
18:23:39 <elderK> That like, doesn't suck in sixteen shades of CRAP
18:25:20 <synx> I've got a good font, but my system won't allow me to know where it is. e_e
18:25:43 <elderK> :( Do you knwo what it is called?
18:25:50 <elderK> And hey, out of curiosity, what syste mare you on?
18:25:51 <elderK> :)
18:25:53 <synx> "Yes I know it's called Monospace. Where's the goddamn file already!"
18:25:54 <elderK> I'm running Slackware Linux.
18:26:03 <synx> I'm on Debian testing right now.
18:26:11 <elderK> so, etch's big brother?
18:26:11 <elderK> :P
18:26:36 <synx> It's probably a truetype font. X unfortunately has two different independant font systems, so it's hard to track stuff down.
18:26:42 <synx> Three technically, but nobody uses xfs.
18:27:06 <elderK> It's probably DejaVu or Vera
18:27:18 <elderK> It's just thsoe fonts are far too boldish looking on my monitor.
18:27:29 <synx> The name is Monospace
18:28:01 <synx> Found it.
18:28:10 <elderK> o_O
18:28:11 <synx> DevaVu Sans Mono
18:28:13 <elderK> Yeah.
18:28:15 <elderK> I can't stand it.
18:28:18 <elderK> Too bold for me :P
18:28:32 <synx> FreeMono is less bold than DejaVu, you could try that.
18:28:58 <elderK> *takes a ponder*
18:29:42 <synx> Also 11 point DejaVu Sans Mono slims up quite a bit from 12.
18:31:02 <elderK> I use it on 10.
18:31:24 <synx> jeez, what kind of monitor do you have, 10cm screen?
18:31:48 <elderK> 19"" Widescreen
18:31:52 <elderK> 1440x900
18:32:10 <elderK> 89dpi
18:32:28 <synx> I'm on 1280x1024 and I can barely read 10 point font x3
18:32:35 <synx> My eyes kinda suck though.
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18:33:07 <synx> Wish I could get some computer glasses.
18:33:39 <elderK> this seems decent http://www.netalive.org/tinkering/triskweline/
18:33:45 <elderK> :P I have bad eyesight too
18:33:46 <elderK> fortunately
18:33:52 <elderK> I'm right against hte screen, literally.
18:34:12 <synx> ew, that could cause eyestrain
18:36:27 <elderK> http://www.levien.com/type/myfonts/inconsolata.html
18:36:28 <elderK> :)
18:37:05 <elderK> I wonder if there is a way to do optional arguments in Scheme without macros.
18:37:54 <elderK> say, (init-struct 'f3 '() 'f1 '() 'f2 '())
18:38:04 <elderK> uses the symbols to know which fields to update.
18:38:17 <elderK> or I could stop beign a pussy and just use a fixed format.
18:38:18 <elderK> *shrugs*
18:39:00 <synx> You could always use an associative list...
18:39:19 <synx> (something '((a . 3) (b . 4) (c . 5)))
18:39:46 <elderK> well, aye.
18:39:52 <elderK> Are alists in r5rs?
18:41:28 <synx> alists are just lists. They're in every scheme.
18:41:42 <elderK> aye, but the functions to look them up
18:41:47 <synx> Now assq that might only be in r5rs.
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18:42:06 <synx> Yeah they're in r5rs.
18:42:10 <elderK> to say, "get this key's value"
18:42:12 <elderK> okay, cool :)
18:42:14 <elderK> thanks synx
18:42:23 <synx> http://docs.plt-scheme.org/r5rs-std/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_452
18:42:57 <synx> I would just use whatever your scheme supports for optional or keyword arguments though.
18:43:30 <synx> (lambda (a b . rest) (let ([optional-1 (car rest)] [optional-2 (cadr rest)] ...
18:44:05 <elderK> ?
18:44:06 <elderK> :p
18:45:53 <arcfide> elderK: R5RS and R6RS both support the dotted tail optional argument notation for procedures.
18:46:17 <arcfide> ((lambda (a . b) b) 'a 'b 'c) => '(b c)
18:46:28 <arcfide> elderK: In addition to this, I believe CASE-LAMBDA is in R6RS.
18:46:52 <arcfide> Usually every Scheme has a means of doing some more sophisticated argument parsing.
18:47:47 <arcfide> Riastradh: Is foof loop, is there a nice way to iterate over two elements of a list at a time? I was trying an iterator like (for elem-pair (in-list lst cddr)) but that obviously has issues.
18:48:45 <arcfide> Do you have to just do (for e r (in-list lst cddr)) and use the R?
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18:49:47 <arcfide> elderK: Also the format of that procedure seems really, weird. Is there a reason you need symbols to reference fields/ Is this an association list?
18:51:00 <elderK> it was.
18:51:04 <elderK> I was doing it more for th ehell of it
18:51:08 <elderK> than real functional reasons.
18:51:10 <elderK> I have no problem saying
18:51:23 <elderK> (init-struct initializer1 initializer2 etc)
18:51:33 <elderK> I just thought it would be neat if you didnt have to put them in proper order.
18:51:34 <elderK> lol
18:51:49 <arcfide> elderK: There is an SRFI that does that.
18:52:17 <arcfide> elderK: Additionally, plenty of people do key/value pair arguments with normal R5RS procedures.
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18:52:46 <elderK> like, '((field_to_init . initializer))
18:52:47 <elderK> ?
18:53:42 <slom_> elderK: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~c-sloma/r6rs-clos/r6rs-clos-dev/files/head:/slom//keywords/
18:53:45 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/da3zld
18:54:16 <slom_> all portable R6RS scheme
18:55:59 <lisppaste> arcfide pasted "Sample Optional Arguments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77727
18:56:22 <arcfide> elderK: See ^^^, but note that I use nested foof loop for the looping. The basic concept is still the same.
18:56:51 <vaasu> hi.. how to specify stdout in gambit is utf-8 encoded? i tried gsi -:-8 file.scm > out.utf8.txt with no luck.
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18:57:59 <lisppaste> arcfide annotated #77727 "No foof looping" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77727#1
18:58:06 <slom_> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~derick-eddington/ikarus-libraries/xitomatl/files also contains a keyword library
18:58:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cj5zg8
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18:59:04 <arcfide> elderK: CASE-LAMBDA is good if you have a fixed set of variations that you want to be able to use. Such as having one optional argument or if your procedure does something different with 1, 2, 3, or N arguments.
18:59:41 <elderK> Well, I have very little 'real' reason to use the 'variable locations'
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19:02:42 <offby1> I know this has been asked before, but: what's the PLT scheme equivalent of python's "try/finally"?  That is, I want to run some code and then run some cleanup code -- and ensure that the cleanup gets called even if the first code raises an exception.
19:02:45 <lisppaste> offby1 pasted "PLT equivalent of Python's "try/finally"?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77728
19:03:06 <offby1> The problem with what I pasted is that, if the first code indeed raises an exception, the cleanup will get called twice.
19:03:21 <offby1> I have this vague notion that I should not be using "dynamic-wind" ...
19:04:10 <arcfide> offby1: You just want to guarantee that if anything takes you out of this code, it executes finally?
19:04:56 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw372060.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme
19:05:35 <offby1> yep
19:05:55 <lisppaste> offby1 annotated #77728 "nother idea" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77728#1
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19:06:38 <lisppaste> eli annotated #77728 "better version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77728#2
19:06:51 <offby1> :)
19:06:53 <offby1> what service!
19:06:54 <lisppaste> arcfide annotated #77728 "And what's wrong with...?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77728#3
19:07:36 *offby1* wonders where eli went
19:07:56 <eli> I'm here, sort of.
19:08:00 <offby1> anyway, won't eli's version run the cleanup twice, if the thunk raises an exception?
19:08:18 <offby1> ah, no; since it raises after running it.
19:08:19 <offby1> got it.
19:08:25 <arcfide> offby1, do you assume that you can re-enter after the exception?
19:08:33 <offby1> I dunno.
19:08:46 <eli> Not only that, but also the last cleanup is inside the with-handlers.
19:09:01 <offby1> is that good or bad?
19:09:13 <arcfide> offby1, you could use FORCE and DELAY.
19:09:18 <arcfide> If you really just want it running once.
19:09:18 <offby1> I could?
19:09:20 *offby1* ponders
19:09:23 <offby1> oh I see.
19:09:30 <offby1> basically memoize the cleanup operation.
19:09:31 <offby1> hmm.
19:09:48 *eli* pukes
19:09:52 <offby1> heh
19:10:11 <offby1> I have learned to pay attention to eli's aesthetic sense.
19:10:16 <eli> That's basically reducing `delay' to a mutable boolean flag.
19:10:26 <offby1> ayup
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19:11:21 <arcfide> offby1: Why do you want to run the cleanup only once?
19:12:12 <arcfide> offby1: If you really don't want to run it more than once, I would assume that you don't want to re-enter, in the likely case, which would mean you might want something like:
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19:12:56 <arcfide> (dynamic-wind (lambda () <error>) thunk cleanup).
19:13:19 <arcfide> offby1: Or, are you *just* concerned with exceptions?
19:13:24 <eli> arcfide: No, that's bogus in almost all cases where people want a `finally'.
19:13:45 <arcfide> eli: I don't really understand where people would want a finally?
19:14:03 <eli> In those cases you want a single cleanup when control has "finally" done.
19:14:31 <elderK> Brb guys!
19:14:39 <arcfide> Control of what? You mean, when you leave the thunk, never to return, or something else?
19:14:52 <offby1> wow, this is deja vu
19:14:54 <eli> Yes.
19:14:59 <eli> Yes to that too.
19:15:08 <offby1> when I last asked this, there was a similar discussion, whose final point I never did grok
19:15:10 <arcfide> But exiting and re-entering should be fine?
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19:15:18 <offby1> Riastradh was involved :)
19:15:38 <eli> `dynamic-wind' is good when you want to play nicely with continuations; 99.9% of practical code does not.
19:16:29 <arcfide> eli: Can you not return from exceptions in PLT?
19:16:49 <eli> No.
19:16:54 <arcfide> Ah.
19:17:29 <eli> I consider being able to do so one of the cute aspects of some systems, but almost utterly useless.
19:18:06 <eli> Certainly not justifying tweaking the runtime, and making people suffer through considering returning back to an evaluation after an exception was raised.
19:18:25 <arcfide> Well, I suppose you can think that. :-)
19:19:21 <eli> How many times did you actually return from an exception?  (A real one, not a Ctrl+C)
19:19:41 <arcfide> eli: I used such features with Testing suites.
19:20:37 <offby1> and amusingly, I am in fact writing some tests
19:20:47 <offby1> I'm pondering the cleanup bit of a test harness
19:20:50 <eli> arcfide: That's not what I asked.
19:21:01 <arcfide> I can also imagine them being used in other circumstances, too.
19:21:14 <arcfide> I haven't needed to write such code, though I know some who have.
19:21:52 <arcfide> eli: I read your question as, "When have you ever used/utilized the ability of your Scheme's error system to resume computation?"
19:22:04 <slom_> heh, that raises the question if arcfide is a value expressible in scheme
19:22:27 <slom_> otherwise he would have a hard time returning from an exception
19:22:51 <Riastradh> arcfide, concerning iterating over property lists in foof-loop: you are probably right that the simplest way is to use (IN-LIST <list> CDDR) and to take the cadr of each pair.
19:23:01 <eli> arcfide: I asked "how many times".
19:23:29 <arcfide> You mean, as in, enumerate them?
19:24:23 <arcfide> Besides everytime I write a testing suite and make a mistake...I used it when I was debugging a web application in MIT Scheme.
19:24:42 <synx> If there are parts that you don't need to redo after handling an exception, then your exception handler should be nested further down to surround the parts you do actually have to start over again.
19:24:52 <synx> That's usually why people want to 'return from' an exception.
19:24:56 <arcfide> I don't know how many times I used it, but I used it enough in one application to appreciate the ability to resume the computation.
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19:25:58 <synx> You resume the computation by handling the exception, and then looping to call the exception handled thing again.
19:26:08 <arcfide> Granted, resuming isn't required, because you can get around that, and I don't see why someone would have to have it, but it's useful, nonetheless.
19:26:40 <eli> arcfide: I don't know what's not clear in my question.  Here are some examples of possible answers: "none", "three", "3", "about once every day for the past ten years", "once a year".
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19:26:50 <Riastradh> offby1, you mentioned a discussion about DYNAMIC-WIND in which I was involved.  The gist of it is that you must decide whether (1) you intend to prohibit re-entry into a dynamic extent, or (2) you accept that resources may not necessarily be released immediately when control returns from that dynamic extent.
19:26:54 <arcfide> eli: I don't keep count.
19:27:06 <arcfide> eli: And I gave you the rough numbers I have above.
19:27:12 <eli> OK, so my guess is that this is rare enough.
19:27:20 <eli> Like I said, it doesn't justify the huge effort.
19:27:39 <arcfide> eli: I wasn't contesting the design decision.
19:27:44 <eli> I have been a CL user for a good amount of time -- there it's part of the langauge, and I used an implementation with good support for them.
19:28:15 <eli> I once even wrote code that played nicely with restarts: I had my own meaningful restarts, etc.
19:28:18 <Riastradh> offby1, both are valid decisions, but neither entails the use of the condition system, which is a red herring.
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19:28:20 <eli> I took a while to write.
19:28:24 <eli> I never used it.
19:28:26 <synx> (let loop () (when (false? (with-handlers ([exn:fail? (lambda (e) (if (can-handle?) #f (raise e)))]) (do-something-returning-true))) (loop))
19:28:29 <eli> I was enlightened.
19:28:48 <synx> I suppose you could abstract that sort of design out a bit.
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19:30:08 <arcfide> eli: Fair enough.
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19:33:36 <offby1> Riastradh: hm ... well, 1) I don't _intend_ to prohibit re-entry, but if doing so makes my coding life significantly simpler, I'm willing to prohibit re-entry.  2) I am not worried about releasing resources, exactly; in my case it's deleting a temporary directory.  And I want that to happen before the entire test suite finishes, but I don't suppose it needs to be immediate.
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19:35:10 <offby1> d'oh, I completely got 2) wrong.  I _am_ worried about releasing resources: an open port.
19:35:12 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-179.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:35:16 <offby1> (I was mixing up separate bits of my program)
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19:35:41 <offby1> ((in practice, the tests aren't going to open more than a couple ports, so I could probably get away with leaking 'em, but ... eww.))
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19:37:16 <synx> I still say if you need to return to some context, you just put the exception handler inside that context, and don't leave that context when an exception happens at all.
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19:37:26 <synx> Unless you can't handle it of course.
19:37:52 <offby1> synx: I don't _think_ that's my issue.
19:37:59 <offby1> you may have been talking to someone else
19:38:30 <synx> well, you said you didn't want a port to close...
19:38:53 <synx> so put the exception handler inside (call-with-input-port) and you're fine, right? No re-entry needed.
19:39:29 -!- Yyyy is now known as Elly
19:40:06 <synx> I'm sorry I might not understand your problem very well.
19:41:37 <Riastradh> What do condition handlers have to do with it, synx?
19:42:40 <Riastradh> offby1, open input ports or open output ports?  Open input ports are just a resource that may occasionally need to be cleaned up, which is why we have a garbage collector.  Open output ports are often connected to permanent effects on the world, and are often used in contexts that can't sensibly admit re-entry.
19:42:41 <synx> I thought we were talking about somehow returning back to where an exception was raised, from inside the handler...
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19:45:01 <offby1> Riastradh: it's an output port, and it's tied to a file.  However, I delete the file when the test suite finishes ...
19:46:18 <synx> Oh, you mean more like leaving the context before an exception has happened, then jumping back into it.
19:46:58 <offby1> ?
19:47:02 <offby1> _I_ certainly don't mean that
19:53:11 <Quadrescence> elderK: I went to bed. ;)
19:55:12 <Quadrescence> Is there any equivalent to Common Lisp's &optional and &rest in Scheme? I guess &rest is (define (f a . rest-of-args)...)
19:55:24 <elderK> :D
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19:55:29 <elderK> welcome back Quadrescence
19:55:29 <elderK> :)
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19:55:38 <Quadrescence> elderK: Thanks.
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19:59:54 <slom_> Quadrescence: case-lambda
20:01:03 <Quadrescence> slom_: Oh, that's really neat
20:01:52 <elderK> guys, is it bad form to emulate structures, with functions?
20:02:39 <klutometis> elderK: no; that's part of the interesting code/data union
20:02:49 <klutometis> Quadrescence: are you abstracting from square to nick?
20:03:16 <elderK> :) neat
20:03:23 <Quadrescence> klutometis: Hm? :)
20:03:37 <elderK> klutometis: For my little test BST implementation in Scheme, I simply made the private 'structure' a vecotr.
20:03:47 <elderK> that stored some links.
20:03:48 <elderK> tahts about it really
20:03:55 <elderK> created bst-node.left!
20:03:57 <elderK> stuf flike that
20:04:00 <klutometis> Quadrescence: i read Quadrescence as "essence of a quadratic"
20:04:03 <klutometis> elderK: care to paste it?
20:04:12 <elderK> Sure, but its horrible.
20:04:13 <elderK> :p
20:04:18 <klutometis> lisppaste: url
20:04:19 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
20:04:28 <Quadrescence> klutometis: Hehe.
20:04:55 <elderK> http://paste.lisp.org/display/77718#3
20:04:56 <elderK> :)
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20:05:22 <elderK> ah crap.
20:05:22 <elderK> :p
20:05:41 <elderK> change location of key and right in the make-bst-node function
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20:07:35 <klutometis> elderK: are you a pilot?
20:07:49 <elderK> No, whyfore?
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20:08:57 <hkBst> today I got surprised by rounding in the following expression:  (let loop ((b 0.3)) (display b)(display " ")(display (<= b 0.35))(newline)(if (<= b 0.35) (loop (+ b 0.01))))
20:09:11 <klutometis> elderK: oh, you got the phonetic alphabet down that pilots use ;)
20:09:28 <elderK> alpha, beta, etc?
20:09:30 <elderK> :)
20:09:39 <elderK> My father is a retired 'nam dude.
20:09:54 <klutometis> elderK: anyway; looks like a reasonable implementation; little bit mutation heavy
20:10:01 <klutometis> stylistically, replace the dots with dashes
20:10:10 <klutometis> bst-node-left is fine
20:10:16 <elderK> alrighty :)
20:10:29 <elderK> mutation heavy meaning, too many public awys to modify the 'objects' state?
20:10:49 <klutometis> yeah; do a little SICP, and you'll find more natural ways to do BSTs in scheme
20:11:07 <klutometis> that don't necessarily suffer wrt performance
20:11:08 <elderK> just using good old lists? :)
20:11:12 <klutometis> yeah ;)
20:11:18 <elderK> ((0 1) 3 (2 4))
20:11:19 <elderK> :)
20:11:20 <klutometis> heh
20:11:41 <Quadrescence> SICP : #scheme :: K&R : ##c
20:11:46 <elderK> all I need is a three cons.
20:12:21 <elderK> (cons left (cons value right))
20:12:33 <elderK> that would do?
20:12:42 <klutometis> Quadrescence: that's a reasonable analogy; but sicp blew my mind in ways that k&r didn't, even though k&r made me a better c-programmer
20:13:06 <Quadrescence> elderK: (list 'left 'value 'right)
20:13:24 <elderK> but doesnt that end the list with a '() ?
20:13:27 <elderK> which is a wasted link?
20:13:29 <klutometis> elderK: yeah; but i suspect a functional way of thinking will also inform how you implement operations on the bst
20:13:48 <Quadrescence> klutometis: Hehe, yeah.
20:14:11 <Quadrescence> elderK: You can care about efficiency, but care about it last.
20:14:16 <Quadrescence> ;)
20:14:28 <elderK> well, I expect the functions to have side effecs. I don't expect them to return an entirely new tree on every operation
20:14:35 <elderK> heh :)
20:14:39 <Quadrescence> First, write the program so that it's as easy as possible to understand.
20:14:44 <elderK> Sorry, that was my obsession/skill with C.
20:14:49 <elderK> One reason I am coming to scheme for fun.
20:14:55 <elderK> :P Trying to break the perfectionist/optimization madness.
20:15:04 <Quadrescence> You can optimize, just do it last.
20:15:26 <Quadrescence> The way to build programs in scheme is essentially the opposite of how you'd do it in C
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20:16:45 <elderK> :)
20:17:29 <klutometis> elderK: functional operations on a bst don't necessarily require copying the whole damn thing; try your hand at a few operations, and we'll do some functional optimization
20:18:10 <Quadrescence> elderK: And yes, (list...) does end with '(), but it's not necessarily a waste
20:18:19 <elderK> How so? :)
20:19:23 <Quadrescence> elderK: Say you wanted to append to that list. You no longer have that empty spot at the end to shove another list in.
20:19:38 <Quadrescence> Typing that list is annoying: (left value . right)
20:20:13 <Quadrescence> And traversal is easier: check the CDRs till you hit nil.
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20:29:35 <Mr-Cat> Are you, guys talking about cons cells economy?
20:29:50 <Quadrescence> Yeah
20:30:23 <elderK> Quadrescence, klutometis:For my bst nodes, I could have either a list of three elements - left, key, right. Or, I could just have whatever list is needed and append to it later.
20:30:26 <elderK> the 3 element approach is simpler.
20:32:39 <Mr-Cat> elderK: You mean bidirectional list?
20:32:58 <elderK> no, binary search tree
20:32:59 <elderK> :P
20:33:13 <Mr-Cat> ah, `bst'
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20:40:04 <elderK> heh, neat.
20:40:50 <elderK> I can implement BST using only a few car/cadr/caddr
20:41:48 <Quadrescence> (list 'left 'right)
20:42:12 <elderK> why the quote?
20:42:13 <Quadrescence> Then you have the empty spot in the caddr for a key if you want
20:42:20 <Quadrescence> I'm just quoting just because.
20:42:27 <elderK> haha, gotcha
20:43:11 <Quadrescence> erm, not the caddr, the cddar
20:43:22 <Quadrescence> (I think. I'm mixing up the order)
20:43:31 <Quadrescence> cdr cdr car, whatever that one is.
20:43:31 <elderK> cddr works too
20:43:38 <Quadrescence> That will return a list
20:43:51 <Quadrescence> I lied, it won't.
20:43:59 <Quadrescence> (I really need to eat)
20:44:00 <elderK> :P
20:44:13 <elderK> Go forth and devour all that comes in ye way, almighty schemer!
20:44:13 <elderK> :p
20:44:50 <Quadrescence> I'm actually not really a schemer, more like...a lisper. But there are some things I'm interested in scheme, and things I'm not interested in with CL. :<
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20:45:42 <Mr-Cat> Why those `cadadadars'? Why not first, second, third... from srfi-1?
20:46:17 <Riastradh> (define (branch.left branch) (car branch)) ...  (define-record-type <branch> (make-branch left datum right) branch? (left branch.datum) ...)
20:46:43 <Quadrescence> Mr-Cat: caddadaddr makes me feel good. ._.
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20:47:10 <elderK> no setter defined?
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20:52:27 <Mr-Cat> are there srfis for matrices?
20:52:36 <Riastradh> No.
20:52:47 <Riastradh> To be precise, there are no SRFIs that include operations such as matrix multiplication.
20:53:02 <Riastradh> SRFI twenty-something supports multidimensional arrays (in an unfortunately kludgey manner).
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21:14:12 <guenther__> hi
21:16:13 <elderK> Later  guys.
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21:40:23 <Riastradh> offby1: <http://mumble.net/~campbell/blag.txt>
21:40:30 <Riastradh> offby1, see the 2009-03-28 entry.
21:40:41 <Riastradh> offby1, ...concerning UNWIND-PROTECT.
21:42:02 <synx> what the heck... is it possible to flatten a list tail-recursively?
21:43:00 <synx> (define (flatten l) (if (pair? l) (cons (flatten (car l)) (flatten (cdr l)) l)
21:43:37 <synx> it's a conundrum...
21:44:04 <Riastradh> Why do you care?
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21:45:03 <zbigniew> a conundrum wrapped in an enigma of bacon
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21:46:22 <synx> I was implementing a parent/child structure, and wanted to find all the elements of a certain quality in it.
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21:46:48 <zbigniew> incubot: you have that certain star quality...
21:46:51 <incubot> that's like asking a film director how they liked working with a movie star.  You don't -really- expect them to say "That Sean Penn!  What an asshole!"
21:46:54 <synx> So to do that I had to flatten the structure into a list of elements, and match along them.
21:47:46 <synx> And to do that I had to make a special flatten procedure. And that's how I came to care about it Riastradh.
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21:48:13 <synx> Also I don't want the flattening of giant lists to be overly memory consumptive.
21:48:20 <Riastradh> Why are you trying to flatten lists in the first place?
21:48:20 <Daemmerung> synx: You might find http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/misc.html#lazy-flattener interesting.
21:48:24 <Riastradh> Why aren't they flat to begin with?
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21:50:01 <synx> I'm trying to flatten it so I can find all elements that have a certain quality, and return a list of them.
21:50:02 <zbigniew> The list children are adolescents?
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21:50:13 <synx> Some sort of is-what-I-want? boolean function.
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21:50:20 <synx> zbigniew: ouch x3
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21:50:54 <Riastradh> Why aren't your lists flat to begin with, synx?
21:51:20 <synx> They're describing a hierarchical data structure.
21:51:42 <Riastradh> So why do you need a flat list, then?
21:52:08 <synx> So I can search through it to find elements that match.
21:52:18 <synx> ala filter
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21:53:09 <Riastradh> OK.  Have you observed that naive flattening causes excessive consumption of your memory?  I haven't ever heard of RAM contracting tuberculosis, myself.
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21:54:23 <Daemmerung> A ram would contract anthrax instead.
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21:55:12 <synx> I haven't observed anything, just noticed that I couldn't figure out a way to flatten without employing non-tail recursion.
21:55:31 <synx> So I asked "is it possible to flatten a list tail-recursively?"
21:58:18 <synx> Annnd lazy scares me, but apparantly it is possible...
21:58:28 <Riastradh> Well, do you want to write only syntactically tail-recursive procedures, or do you really want an iterative process that runs in constant space?
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22:01:01 <Riastradh> You can always turn a syntactically non-tail-recursive procedure into a syntactically tail-recursive procedure by the use of an explicit stack.
22:01:59 <synx> honestly I probably won't even have a processor blip doing it er, naively. A constant space iterative process was what I was referring to though.
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22:06:02 <Riastradh> In that case you'll need to edit the list in-place.
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22:09:54 <synx> Oh, that's an interesting idea.
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22:31:00 <Mr-Cat> Does chicken have a built-in pi constant, or should I use (asoc -1)?
22:31:45 <Mr-Cat> I think, sheme needs an srfi for widely-used constants
22:31:51 <Mr-Cat> s/sheme/scheme
22:32:14 <Mr-Cat> s/asoc/acos
22:34:37 <klutometis> Mr-Cat: they tried; but it turns out that pi, e and phi are subject to the heisenberg principle
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22:35:57 <elderK> :) Quadrescence, you still around dude?
22:36:00 <elderK> or even klutometis?
22:36:22 <Mr-Cat> klutometis: Where can I read about that effort?
22:37:46 <synx> ok wat
22:37:52 <synx> why do I have circular lists
22:38:18 <synx> I only ever use set!
22:38:26 <Mr-Cat> And what does `heisenberg principle' say when applied to mathematical constants in scheme? `pi and e cannot have precise values at the same time'?
22:38:28 <elderK> :D hey synx!
22:38:50 <synx> oh I get it, not circular lists, just circular references...
22:40:51 <elderK> hey, synx, what do you know about vectors in scheme?
22:41:51 <elderK> I'm just hoping that say, vector-ref <some-vector> <some-idx> is actually reasonably fast.
22:41:55 <elderK> like, the say as say,
22:42:00 <elderK> some-vector[some-idx]
22:42:07 <elderK> I figure it is, they would have optimized that
22:42:35 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Who cares aboit perfomance in scheme? :)
22:42:52 <Mr-Cat> s/aboit/about
22:43:05 <duncanm> la la la
22:44:07 <elderK> well.
22:44:15 <elderK> You want your programs to be reasonably efficient?
22:44:20 <elderK> Like, not 102931029301$x slower than C.
22:44:24 <eli> synx: In plt there is already a `flatten'.
22:44:41 <elderK> besides, I figure Scheme is no slower than something like python or ruby :) Would I be correct in that/;
22:46:43 <Mr-Cat> elderK: Python and ruby are really s...l...o...w...
22:47:08 <Mr-Cat> btw, google has begun an effort in making python fast
22:47:42 <Mr-Cat> http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/
22:49:20 <elderK> so, if people can make small playable game sin python,
22:49:24 <Mr-Cat> But even python becomes reasonably fast when used in conjunction with fast libraries
22:49:25 <elderK> then scheme should be totally rockin'
22:49:32 <elderK> ;) aye.
22:49:41 <elderK> How does Scheme fair against the likes of Java? :)
22:50:40 <zbigniew> python swallows
22:51:07 <elderK> :) Okay, I have another small question :)
22:51:09 <Mr-Cat> elderK: pure pyton is slow. When it comes to games, 3d, maths and so on, people use bindings to lowlevel optimized libraries. So, python is only a highlevel thin wrapper
22:51:27 <Mr-Cat> in those cases
22:51:27 <elderK> Aye, I figured that. Similar to Java's JNI
22:52:27 <elderK> like, would it be bad form to attempt something like this, in scheme : (I dont know how to do this in scheme ,so here it is in c)
22:52:37 <elderK> array[a > b] = something
22:52:50 <elderK> (> a b) in scheme results in true or false, not 1 or 0
22:53:00 <elderK> so, I assume it's not really possible? Unless I convert, which takes away the entire point.
22:53:21 <Mr-Cat> elderK: and what is the point?
22:53:35 <elderK> say we want to route down two paths (x or y)
22:53:39 <elderK> instead of having say...
22:53:45 <Mr-Cat> to write `(vector-ref v (> a b))' ?
22:54:10 <elderK> yes, but (> a b) evaluate to 0 or 1 - something I can use as an index.
22:54:22 <elderK> but, I figure this is bad schemin', yeah?
22:54:49 <Mr-Cat> elderK: you may define your own >
22:55:22 <elderK> yes, but that just hides the conversion
22:55:26 <Mr-Cat> or your own vector, that can be indexed with booleans
22:55:33 <elderK> say, (if (> x y) 1 0)
22:55:44 <Mr-Cat> yeah
22:55:53 <elderK> which would be how much slower than just having a branch?
22:57:02 <elderK> say, (if (< x y) (set! (vector-ref *vec* 0) 'bla) (set! (vector-ref *vec* 1) 'zug))
22:57:12 <elderK> *shrug*
22:57:29 <elderK> :) I don't mean to be aggrivating, It's just I find this quite interesting :)
22:57:34 <elderK> because so far, I'm really enjoying Scheme.
22:57:34 <elderK> :D
22:58:17 <Mr-Cat> why much slower?
22:58:57 <elderK> :) I'm asking you.
22:59:05 <elderK> if we make a call, we have to jump somewhere, evaluate, etc.
22:59:10 <elderK> but then again, the branching does the same thing.
22:59:12 *elderK* sighs
22:59:19 <elderK> I've got to stop caring about performance so much
22:59:20 <Mr-Cat> (vector-set! *vec* (if (< x y) 1 0))
22:59:22 <elderK> It ruins everything fun! :P
22:59:35 <Mr-Cat> oh
22:59:44 <Mr-Cat> (vector-set! *vec* (if (< x y) 1 0) some-value)
23:00:00 <Mr-Cat> or something like that
23:00:03 <elderK> :)
23:00:06 <elderK> Cheers :)
23:00:53 <Mr-Cat> Well, a single extra call won't make a program much slower
23:01:18 <sladegen> but two calls will make it twice as slow.
23:01:30 <Mr-Cat> Scheme is a highlevel language, you cannot predict, how would cpu execute your program
23:04:00 <elderK> sladegen: how would you approach this?
23:04:02 <Mr-Cat> And modern CPUs a fucking smart also
23:04:04 <elderK> the if/
23:04:07 <elderK> aye, that's true.
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23:04:14 <Mr-Cat> s/a/are
23:04:16 <elderK> seriously, if python can proceed at decent speeds, so can Scheme.
23:04:32 <elderK> and scheme is far less fat than python.
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23:09:02 <sladegen> elderK: what's the problem? vectors should be O(1) access, period. but of course one can worry about constants. waiting 0.1 and half of an hour is a "difference".
23:09:51 <elderK> hahahaah
23:09:53 <elderK> good point :)
23:10:06 <elderK> All I need to do now is figure out how to use Chicken's FFI :)
23:10:17 <elderK> or mzschemes, or whatevers ffu
23:10:20 <elderK> s/u/i
23:10:54 <sladegen> what's your vapourware?
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23:12:50 *mejja* thinks larceny deserves a bigger user community
23:13:16 <elderK> :) really mejja? :)
23:14:08 <mejja> go for it!
23:18:18 <Mr-Cat> lisppaset: url
23:18:23 <Mr-Cat> lisppaste: url
23:18:23 <lisppaste> To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
23:21:54 <synx> speed doesn't matter.
23:22:04 <elderK> depends on what you are building :)
23:22:17 <synx> The vast majority of time is spent waiting for the hard disk to seek to a certain position, and especially waiting for something to go over the network.
23:22:39 <elderK> :)
23:23:00 <synx> If you're building something special chances are you'll just be doing raw machine code. Or writing a scheme program to generate it.
23:23:25 <elderK> aye.
23:23:32 <elderK> but, scheme will be fast enough for some little games?
23:23:36 <elderK> say, a zelda-like?
23:23:40 <elderK> or an asteroids type thing
23:23:57 <synx> Or more likely using a thrice damned $500 licensed proprietary program because the people who made the box fancied that they would cripple it unless you buy their convenient software to interface with it.
23:24:14 <elderK> thrice we say, THRICE!
23:24:15 <elderK> :p
23:24:16 <synx> Which depicts the circuits via a ladder diagram flow chart.
23:24:16 <elderK> to the FACE
23:24:17 <elderK> :P
23:24:20 <Quadrescence> elderK: I went to eat.
23:24:25 <elderK> Heya Quadrescence :)
23:24:27 <elderK> welcome back dude.
23:24:30 <Quadrescence> Thanks.
23:24:38 <synx> More than fast enough for that elderK. But make sure you keep the graphics loop tight as usual.
23:24:49 <elderK> :)
23:24:50 <elderK> Sweet.
23:25:02 <synx> 99% of your CPU time will be spent blitting pixels onto the screen.
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23:25:12 <elderK> aye and waiting for user input
23:25:12 <elderK> :P
23:25:21 <synx> Unless you have a GPU, but even then.
23:25:31 <synx> You don't wait for user input in games, typically.
23:25:58 <elderK> well, aye.
23:26:08 <synx> I'm trying to make a game myself though, so I study it a lot.
23:27:56 <synx> I stopped worrying about making a C graphics loop in a game once I realized that (send context swap-gl-buffer) is going to take the bulk of the time, no matter what language that loop's in.
23:30:56 <elderK> aye, that's true.
23:31:05 <elderK> what ogl bindings are you using
23:31:06 <elderK> ?
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23:32:33 <synx> I'm using the sgl package that comes with plt.
23:32:49 <elderK> aha, a plt'r
23:32:49 <synx> Mostly I'm stuck without having sprites though.
23:32:55 <elderK> that's really just mzscheme right?
23:33:21 <synx> No, it's mzscheme, mred, and drscheme, and the framework around which they all operate.
23:33:31 <elderK> mred?
23:33:56 <synx> And I use chicken too, albeit with great skepticism.
23:34:35 <synx> mred is the interpreter with GUI support. mzscheme has that cut out of it.
23:35:07 <synx> It's supposed to stand for "Mr. Ed" of course of course.
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23:38:10 <synx> holy-OH
23:38:33 <synx> I just realized how to do semantic relationships in a SQL database
23:39:33 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
23:39:43 <synx> It's namespace, predicate, value, and that translates to database, table, row, except that ...nah but how to relate two of those things together? sigh...
23:40:48 <synx> I don't think I'll ever figure it out. Such a conundrum...
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23:44:08 <synx> (source dest) where source and dest are foreign keys to various datas. dest is usually a tag with only a name. But you need one of those tables for every combination of source type and destination type.
23:44:46 <synx> image_tag image_artist artist_tag tag_tag image_comic comic_tag, etc...
23:44:59 <synx> I wish I could generalize it somehow any relates to any.
23:45:55 <Daemmerung> minion: chant
23:45:56 <minion> MORE THAN
23:46:23 <Daemmerung> less bhlack
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