00:00:34 -!- vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Quitting!"] 00:01:22 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 00:02:16 joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-231-39.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:02:26 -!- joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-231-39.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:36 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["rebootin da Emacs"] 00:03:17 dudrenov [n=user@67.101.217.41] has joined #scheme 00:03:33 proq: maybe stalin-head.sc, stalin-left-arm.sc, stalin-willy.sc would do the trick? 00:05:02 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:07 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:10 mejja: it would? 00:06:29 -!- SweetwaterDixon [n=user@210.48.104.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:41 pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 00:17:34 -!- bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:22:15 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:36 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:23:36 -!- Dezlagrate [n=Dezlagra@unaffiliated/dezlagrate] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:33:16 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.204.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:52 -!- luz [n=davids@189.60.54.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:11 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 00:40:47 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053D8D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:59 grnman [i=grnman@shell.thehostbusters.com] has joined #scheme 00:48:09 -!- jao [n=jao@148.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:28 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 00:50:48 -!- LobsterMan_AFK is now known as LobsterMan 01:03:44 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 01:07:13 stalin-schlong.sc 01:09:17 Oi. Somoene was bound to. 01:09:23 "someone", even. 01:09:52 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:09:53 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.87.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:03 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF004.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:39 Don't talk bad about the Samoans! 01:13:59 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-69-148-16-111.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:55 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-121-160.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:21 -!- deat_ [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 01:20:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:27:44 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF004.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:28:09 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-148.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:59 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEF7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:36 -!- dudrenov [n=user@67.101.217.41] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:36:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:07 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-154-57.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:26 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-121-160.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:56 synx pasted "guarding finalizers" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77152 01:46:13 So I made that, see. 01:46:31 Therefore there shouldn't be any way to double free, right? 01:46:40 It'd error out the second time you tried to free it. 01:48:50 benny` [n=benny@i577A04A5.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 01:48:52 -!- seoushi [n=seoushi@c-67-186-243-205.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:49:31 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 01:49:36 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 01:49:40 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-148.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:51 -!- pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:55 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:25 I've decided that what I need is a fast Pseudoscheme compiler that generates something other than CL. Anybody have an idea? It would be okay to have a full-Scheme compiler if I didn't have to pay extra. 01:54:12 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-76-147.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:49 jcowan: What are you asking, that makes little sense 02:01:13 jonrafkind [n=jon@pool-70-22-224-168.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:01:36 Okay. 02:01:49 By Pseudoscheme I mean a Scheme that doesn't have call/cc and may not even be properly tail recursive. 02:02:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A097C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:02:09 Dylan. 02:02:13 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-154-57.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 02:02:20 Hmm, excellent point. 02:03:34 I'll look into that, although the fact that the language isn't S-expression-based will be an irritant. 02:03:39 Context? 02:04:15 jcowan: what is the key metric that you are looking for other then CL... for instance, what's wrong with most schemes? 02:04:42 I've decided that my current Blesity design, translating to Java, is going to be excessively fiddlesome and will require writing way too much Java. 02:05:19 But I do want a compiler, and I don't want to have to pay for call/cc or TCO when the language I'm compiling doesn't provide them. 02:05:41 cipher [n=cipher@pool-173-48-136-239.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:05:43 Pay for? 02:06:02 What is the problem you are trying to solve which you believe existing Scheme compilers inadequate for solving? 02:06:20 Not inadequate: on the contrary, too strong. 02:06:50 Chicken, for example, uses the Cheney MTA design, which works well for Scheme but is overkill for any other language, given that the output language is C. 02:07:10 Scheme->C has the right properties, but the last release is some 15 years old and won't even compile. 02:07:40 I have not found any theory of how Gambit works. 02:07:42 Substitute `too strong' for `inadequate' in my previous question. 02:08:02 An appropriate output stage for Blesity, given that I no longer want to use javac. 02:08:08 (Gambit generates code for an abstract virtual machine which is rendered into C through the use of a trampoline.) 02:08:22 *jcowan* nods. 02:08:41 (Approximately the same is true of liarc.) 02:08:42 Most other compilers generate stuff that only works in the context of some existing interpreter, something else I wish to avoid. 02:10:19 It will be about as easy to convert ISLisp into Pseudoscheme as it is to convert Scheme into CL, but I don't want to pay the price of a full CL runtime which ISLisp does not demand. 02:10:27 s/Scheme/Pseudoscheme 02:11:09 In most Scheme systems, you will encounter Scheme systems. 02:13:03 chicken for instance will generate code that will work without the chicken interpreter. 02:13:18 Indeed, the interpreter is implemented using the compiler rather than vice versa. 02:13:33 There is more to Chicken which jcowan would like to avoid than EVAL, I imagine. 02:13:46 Eval is easy to avoid, as it's a loadable unit. 02:14:14 Chicken was my first choice until it occurred to me that I'd be paying the MTA tax. 02:14:45 jcowan: So, is it a performance problem? 02:14:47 Have you measured the cost of that tax? 02:15:30 Not really, because it's small in memory-rich systems, which are all I have to measure on. It is known that Chicken behaves poorly with a small nursery: the GC overhead becomes dominant. 02:15:51 I suppose I could live with it, all things considered. 02:16:53 *jcowan* sighs and supposes he coudl live with it. 02:17:01 Why don't you generate C yourself? 02:17:15 Laziness (and I don't mean as in Haskell) 02:17:39 The last thing I want to do is write a fiddlesome runtime in C -- writing it in Java is already too taxing. 02:18:15 is there a problem with stalin for isntance? 02:18:26 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:04 Too sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. 02:19:13 And that understates the issue. 02:19:39 *Riastradh* shrugs. 02:19:40 I have described what I want as a "fast dumb Stalin"; that is, without all of Stalin's optimization passes. 02:19:45 you mean the compiler? 02:19:53 Personally I'd consider a run-time in C to be less fiddly than a run-time in Java. 02:19:55 Yes. 02:20:16 So, you want a fast compiler that generates a fast runtime? 02:20:28 Writing a simple Scheme->C compiler and minimal run-time system takes a week of evening hacking. 02:20:34 Yes, reading "reasonably fast" for "fast". 02:20:47 Riastradh: Doubtless. However, we aren't all alike. 02:21:29 Why worry much about the engine, anyway? Make it run on whatever Scheme you like, relying on as little of the host's run-time facilities as you like. 02:21:52 Well, if the host's monolithic, I still pay the price for that. 02:22:15 Any price paid for the engine, if you make the back end easily swappable, will be paid only provisionally. 02:22:17 For example, Chicken has two available modes, fixnum+flonum and full tower. Neither is suitable. 02:22:27 What's a MTA tax? o.O 02:22:29 jcowan: wha? 02:22:38 s/modes/numeric modes 02:22:39 Exit fares, synx. 02:22:42 They suck. 02:22:46 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:22:54 True, but not what I meant, Riastradh. 02:22:56 Fortunately the M(B)TA now operates differently. 02:23:03 Exit fares...? 02:23:17 Can't exit the trolley unless you can pay the fare. 02:23:19 Is it a train station? 02:23:23 Ah yeah. 02:23:33 Quite effective, you have to admit. :3 02:23:52 So a fellow named Charlie got stuck. Apparently his girlfriend could supply him with meals on the trolley, but couldn't pass any fare along with the meals, or something like that. 02:23:55 unless you accidentally board without cash 02:23:57 Another tactic I've seen stations do is they make it so that until you pay for your ticket, you can't get to the restrooms. 02:24:10 synx: http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/CheneyMTA.html 02:24:16 You spoilt it, mejja! 02:24:54 Ha! 02:27:16 I'm not a big fan of making scheme that only produces C code. 02:27:38 So I started to go down a rathole constructing a bignum-only egg for Chicken for Blesity use. Of course, well-packaged bignum libraries don't grow on trees: GMP occupies most of the solution space. 02:27:41 The CDECL calling convention itself is a real nest of worms. Why use that? 02:27:57 synx: Blesity doesn't compile Scheme 02:28:16 The idea is to use Scheme as the output language. 02:28:27 wtf is blesity 02:28:31 without having to work too hard against the implementation I'm generating for. 02:28:38 *jcowan* sighs. 02:28:58 I say you should use scheme as the output language, and machine code as the implementation. 02:29:02 If I tell you it is a compiler for ISLisp that I'm trying to write, you will merely reply "WTF is ISLisp?" 02:29:15 WTF is...damn 02:29:23 WTF is Google? 02:29:49 Evil :/ 02:31:16 Riastradh: I used to know what Google is, but the longer I'm here, the less I know. 02:32:24 That's just because you signed your soul away and are forbidden from telling anyone outside Google what it is. 02:33:02 Constraints on what I can *say* are different in kind from constraints on knowledge. 02:33:39 Why don't you write it all in ISLisp? 02:33:40 I used to know that Google was essentially search, but having been here over a year and knowing essentially nothing more about Google search than when I came in tells me that that essentialism is just false. 02:33:58 Search? 02:34:08 As in, what you do from www.google.com 02:34:11 http://christian.jullien.free.fr/ <== (The latest stable version is 8.9 - Release date: 2009-03-14) 02:34:24 Yes, you go to www.google.com to see ads. 02:35:28 Again, we're all different. For you, a Scheme runtime in a week. For me, search. 02:35:55 I'm half-joking. I don't see the ads -- sometimes I forget that Google serves ads. 02:36:26 *jcowan* too. 02:37:16 mejja: not open source, and I don't want to do the work that would be required to make it self-hosting. 02:38:23 jcowan, if you'll permit a brief digression - have you looked at the LibTomMath libraries at all? 02:38:28 But I'm only half-joking. More than one Googler has described to me that everything else Google does is a honey pot for smart people to work on ads. 02:38:43 Exactly what I did look at, gnomon. 02:39:02 Oh! Well, then. Uh. Carry on. 02:39:10 My impression -- which is only that -- is that relatively few Google programmers work on ads in any way. 02:39:44 Rather, ads serve as a money pit (as opposed to honey pot) where Google goes when it wants to be able to do something else. 02:39:45 Yes -- I didn't mean that (what was described to me is that) all the smart people end up working on ads. 02:39:50 jcowan, what's your impression of how LTM compares to GMP? 02:40:05 I can't say anything about its correctness or efficiency, I didn't get to that stage. 02:40:22 It's definitely way simpler, and isn't encrusted with compnums and ratnums and such. 02:40:31 I would guess that it's slower than GMP. 02:40:39 (Another virtue of Java: good bignums.) 02:40:41 That's a fair bet. 02:41:13 The other advantage of generating Java is that lots of smart people are working hard on making it fast overall. This is not true of random C libraries. 02:41:27 Or, for the most part, of random Scheme implementations, once you get past Stalin and maybe Gambit. 02:41:28 True, true. 02:41:52 But I am at a stage of my life where what I can't do now, I probably won't be able to do later either. 02:42:04 That smack you just heard was that backhand landing across Ghuloum's cheek. 02:42:28 jcowan: they got an office in NY, or did you move? I hope the former. 02:42:35 Oh yes, a large office in NYC. 02:42:39 good, good 02:42:59 I long ago decided to move out of my apartment only feet first. 02:43:18 And to leave NYC permanently only in a small box. 02:44:32 *offby1* fidgets uncomfortably 02:44:45 Riastradh: it says here "Exit fares currently exist on the Braintree branch of the Red Line", but no indication of date is given. Is that still true? 02:45:32 a-s [n=user@92.80.114.159] has joined #scheme 02:48:56 Not to my knowledge. 02:49:25 As of a year or two ago, halfway along the Braintree branch there were no exit fares. 02:51:01 So with this, I assume it's impossible to call the guarded procedure twice, assuming it's never called except through the guard? http://paste.lisp.org/display/77152 02:51:17 also assuming said procedure passes no continuations around hm... 02:51:43 But just for a memory freer, it shouldn't double free the memory, ever. 02:52:44 JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:55 -!- JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 02:54:43 Could using a sandbox possibly mess that up? 02:54:46 mehh I'm getting the double free error every time now. 02:55:00 Maybe there's two guards? crap... 02:57:01 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:36 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 02:59:08 bombshelter13p [n=bombshel@209-161-235-227.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 03:00:25 kniu [n=kniu@128.237.232.156] has joined #scheme 03:03:00 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:03:01 Hydr4 [n=Lernaean@68-184-239-20.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:03:03 -!- Hydr4 is now known as Kusanagi 03:04:52 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-127-9.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:05:19 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-127-9.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:10 dsmith [i=kv1yxhub@cpe-71-74-230-225.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:18:09 luz [n=davids@189.60.54.152] has joined #scheme 03:20:34 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:22:38 karlw [n=user@adsl-207-214-83-38.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:54 I'm looking into writing a binding... 03:24:28 what 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joined #scheme 03:41:43 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:43:33 So you mean an interface with a C library? 03:43:54 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:44:04 Yeah. 03:44:52 hmm... 03:45:23 http://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/stk/ ? 03:46:05 or maybe http://kaolin.unice.fr/STk/ 03:46:30 ewww Tk 03:50:38 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:50:38 -!- j85wilson [n=j85wilso@cpe-75-187-46-126.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:50:38 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:50:38 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.91] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:50:38 -!- clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:50:38 -!- luz [n=davids@189.60.54.152] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:50:38 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] 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03:51:26 klutometis [i=klutomet@pdpc/supporter/active/klutometis] has joined #scheme 03:54:56 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.114.159] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:02 Networking and OpenGL. 03:58:42 Various high-level networking libraries. 04:00:07 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:01:55 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:05 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@pool-70-22-224-168.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:18 jonrafkind [n=jon@pool-71-243-21-118.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:23 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 04:20:46 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179196163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:33 OpenGL might be tricky because of all the macros... but probably not impossible with a little work. Chapter 6.23 in the STk reference points out a fairly complete FFI you could use. 04:24:20 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-207-214-83-38.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:31 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:39:34 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@adsl-75-36-234-73.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:52:13 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 04:54:59 *Daemmerung* wouldn't have guessed that STk even had a FFI, as such 05:04:53 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:07:02 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-236-76-147.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:07:11 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has left #scheme 05:07:19 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 05:08:02 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 05:09:08 Well it uses Tk, so it must have something :p 05:11:01 maodun [n=stopgo@c-24-130-16-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:11:34 is symbols not being garbage collected a lisp / scheme thing, or is it just a gambit thing? 05:11:46 man... I just can't pin down this finalization error. It's finalizing everything just fine, until after the sandbox goes away, then it tries to finalize the rest of stuff at the next collection and segfaults. 05:12:02 why would you garbage collect symbols maodun o.O 05:12:21 I'm fairly sure they're implemented as unique integers in most schemes... 05:13:03 synx: i'm generating them dynamically and only using them for a brief period of time. repeat => memory leak 05:14:07 I really couldn't tell you maodun, sorry... 05:14:23 ok then, thanks anyway 05:14:32 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.63.11] has joined #scheme 05:16:15 maodun: Symbols should be GCed like any other value. 05:17:35 eli: i see, so this sounds like a gambit issue. thanks. 05:18:13 maodun: I don't know about gambit, but it might be because it's difficult to ensure that you don't refer to the symbols. 05:18:36 -!- jberg_ [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:18:55 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:09 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:20:37 incubot: the stork brought YAD [yet another dependent], it seems; but this time a canis familiaris of yip-yip-yorkshire provenance 05:20:43 Yorkshire, young feller-me-lad, Yorkshire. 05:20:48 heh 05:21:51 incubot: Yorkshire Pudding 05:21:54 You should try yorkshire pudding though. 05:27:44 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:30:42 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.144] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:31:51 AHA 05:31:55 I was using malloc wrong. 05:32:12 Dammit... even malloc defaults to memory that 3m moves around and collects. 05:32:25 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 05:32:43 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 05:35:23 So registering a finalizer to free it is a bahd idea. 05:35:38 -!- jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:29 crap... no the double free is still there. 05:36:47 ttmrichter__ [n=ttmricht@221.235.62.114] has joined #scheme 05:36:56 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.63.11] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:38:07 eli: you might be able to answer this... is it a bad thing to allocate memory inside a sandbox, then free it outside the sandbox? 05:39:19 maodun: Most Lisp and Scheme implementations don't garbage collect symbols (other than those created by gensym). 05:41:10 is there any other way to generate symbols dynamically besides gensym? 05:41:23 string->symbol 05:41:31 read 05:41:54 y-yeah, but those use gensym behind the scenes, right? 05:42:02 no 05:42:02 no 05:42:11 oh... 05:43:23 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-167-177.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:44:21 foof: That's wrong. 05:44:36 kilimanj4ro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 05:45:03 synx: No, it's as weird as the case with any other resource. 05:45:40 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:01 -!- LobsterMan [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:47:01 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:47:01 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:49:12 thanks eli. It is pretty weird, that when the sandbox...or test suite completes, somehow after that finalizers cause segfaults, but not before. 05:49:30 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 05:49:30 LobsterMan [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has joined #scheme 05:49:30 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 05:50:46 synx: When the sandbox is killed, the custodian in charge of it is shutdown. 05:51:22 I don't think it's the test suite either, that's just some fancy displaying conveniences. Plus I can run said tests outside of a sandbox entirely, with no segmentation fault ever. 05:52:12 eli: Which Scheme implementations prune the symbol table? 05:54:02 foof: At least mzscheme and allegro lisp. 05:54:30 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 05:54:35 In any case, there's nothing special with symbols that makes it problematic to GC them. 05:54:55 Scheme48 too. 05:54:58 Considering the *huge* number of Lisp implementations, you need a lot more than two counterexamples to disprove my claim that "most don't GC the symbol table." 05:55:19 I didn't say all, or that it was difficult, just that it's uncommon. 05:55:48 foof: Please enumerate those who don't. 05:56:30 Chicken, Gauche, Gambit, SCM, Guile, Chibi, Devise are the ones whose implementations I'm familiar with. 05:56:38 Chibi? Devise? 05:56:53 That's cheating, those two are my own :) 05:57:36 Although Chibi has immediate symbols. 05:58:16 eli: Anyway, if you were just uncredulous of my claim you should have said as much. When you strongly state "that's wrong" I expected proof. 05:58:44 foof: Guile does GC them, and IIRC, SCM too. 05:59:40 foof: I would be very surprised when I see an implementation that doesn't, and the main thing that was wrong about your statement is that it made it look like it's a common implementation strategy to not GC symbols. 06:00:33 hmph... if I disable the finalizer entirely the sandbox works fine. Is the memory somehow getting implicitly freed...? 06:00:33 It's like as soon as I end up outside the sandbox, the moment I try to deallocate /anything/ it aborts with a double free error. 06:00:55 OK, I'm curious now, on what basis does it GC symbols? Does it just treat the symbol table as a weak table? That means you may have to throw away and then reintern the same symbol depending on usage patterns. 06:01:04 LobsterMan_AFK [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has joined #scheme 06:01:12 In Scheme48, yes. 06:01:41 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 06:01:52 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:01:52 -!- LobsterMan [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:01:52 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:01:52 You need weak references to implement thi 06:01:57 s. 06:02:07 So? 06:02:34 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 06:02:34 LobsterMan [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has joined #scheme 06:02:34 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 06:02:37 Considering that most Scheme implementations are half-baked toys without weak references, my claim holds :P 06:02:51 Which ones don't support weak references? 06:03:35 http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards#implementations 06:03:49 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:04:00 *Riastradh* coughs. 06:04:05 No. Try again. 06:04:33 I was going to say it's probably easier to subtract from that list the ones that do. 06:05:09 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:05:11 -!- LobsterMan [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:05:13 What significant Scheme systems don't support weak references? 06:05:26 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 06:05:28 I never said significant. 06:05:34 I just said most implementations. 06:08:12 Gauche, btw, while it supports weak references, doesn't use them for the symbo table. 06:08:22 Neither does Scheme48. 06:08:45 I thought you just said it did? 06:09:24 It treats the symbol table as a (tail-)weak table. It doesn't use the objects that are called `weak pointers' to implement this. 06:09:42 Oh, OK. 06:10:08 synx: I can't say more -- you're probably doing something wrong in the way you finalize values. 06:10:26 foof: "I just said most implementations" translates as troll-ism. 06:10:51 Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was a good thing. 06:11:34 Just something to be aware of - if you write a program that generates huge numbers of symbols, it may not run properly on many Scheme implementations. 06:12:23 BTW, if you're dealing with NLP, you should be aware of this being a useful feature -- a pretty convenient way to deal with words very efficiently without much code. 06:14:23 I use symbols for closed-set morphemes and tags. 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[n=eugen@94-248-6-200.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:58:37 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:59:42 dlt__ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 15:02:57 -!- noamsml [n=quassel@adsl-75-45-249-116.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["No Ping reply in 30 seconds."] 15:03:26 noamsml [n=quassel@adsl-75-45-249-116.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:03:43 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:04:46 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:31 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 15:13:46 dlt____ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has joined #scheme 15:16:08 acowley [n=acowley@pool-72-82-218-126.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:22:35 eli: with regard to the sandbox thing, if I garbage collect inside the evaluator shortly before the evaluator goes out of scope, everything finalizes without segfaults. I'm still trying to get a simple reproduction of the situation. 15:22:41 bzzbzz [n=franco@207.236.146.245] has joined #scheme 15:25:32 synx: each sandbox has a custodian. I'm not sure that wills get executed when you shutdown the custodian -- so you should read about that. 15:25:41 *eli* runs away 15:26:49 thanks I will. <.< 15:26:55 that'd just mean memory leaks though not segfaults 15:26:56 jberg [n=johan@229.84-48-210.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 15:31:43 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:27 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:41 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:41:58 Oh hey, if you call a function in tail position, then the objects in the scope of its caller that it does not reference can be garbage collected, right? 15:42:09 no 15:42:33 the local environment will have references still 15:43:55 well it depends what you are calling 15:44:25 I mean like (lambda (a b c) (d c)) then in procedure d you collect garbage, a and b could be collected? 15:44:45 Assuming they have no references elsewhere... 15:44:54 yes, unless d have references to a or b 15:45:34 (lambda () (make-a) (make-b) (d (make-c))) might be a better example 15:45:55 Well I guess I have to copy the bytes then instead of just referring to them, since their containing structure could get garbage collected... 15:46:06 well that could be anything, make-c does what? 15:47:08 bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:48:08 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:48:16 jonrafkind [n=jon@12.172.66.11] has joined #scheme 15:48:22 it also depends what happens earlier in the function 15:49:01 but why are passing in parameters that you do not use? 15:49:11 creating rather 15:49:14 It works like this... 15:50:31 (get-finalized-result) returns a result, a C object returned from a C function. (get-result-value) gets one of the values in that result, which is pretty much a list of values. 15:51:01 So I say (let ((result (get-finalized-result))) (do-something-with (get-value result column))) 15:51:18 But the docs state that the values within the result are only good as long as the result itself isn't freed. 15:51:23 Easy to do in C. 15:51:33 makes sense 15:51:52 But in the above case, the result would be out of scope, so a target for garbage collection, /during/ the do-something-with procedure. 15:52:09 -!- Guest95587 [n=m@dslb-088-066-250-161.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:52:25 but you are not using the result after it goes out of scope 15:52:50 but you are using the (get-result-value) 's return value 15:53:06 No, but I'm using a value inside the result. It doesn't get copied. 15:53:20 now if that was alocated by C, and the finaler of result calls free, then the resulting value would become invalid 15:53:30 Right. 15:53:34 That's what would happen. 15:53:36 yes, that is probably gettign freed 15:53:47 or is it not happening? 15:54:20 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:24 Well I hadn't got to where it would have happened yet. But yeah soon as I tried to operate on a bytea column it would have explodied. 15:54:33 Only bytes columns can be operated on without copying. :3 15:54:44 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 15:55:16 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:55:26 ok, so you are saying that free is somehow called when result goes out of scope and gets garbage colelcted and this is the behaviour you are experienicng? 15:55:54 Actually it probably would be fine, since the chance of a garbage collection right then is very small, but it'd segfault rarely and unpredictably. 15:55:56 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:56:08 so you want to prevent result from getting colelcted? 15:56:15 too early? 15:57:01 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:46 Yeah... but only when it's a bytes column. An integer-bytes->integer column is forced to copy the bytes into an integer. 16:00:07 -!- ASau` [n=user@host208-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Uff."] 16:00:24 why not pass result and column into d, and call get-value there? 16:00:32 I could do it with a weak hash table maybe. Weak on the bytes value, strong on the result. 16:01:15 or create a closure eg (lambda () (get-value column result)) and pass that in, and call it inside d 16:08:26 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:09:31 Because d only really has need of the value, and turning value into (value-getter) a dozen times in my code would be annoying and unpleasant to look at :p 16:09:56 The result object is just a C pointer really. 16:11:31 oh sorry, I didnt know you were looking for pretty and non-working ideas :) 16:12:19 do you allways call d in the tail position? 16:12:41 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@12.172.66.11] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:11 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF004.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:17:31 mike_ [n=m@dslb-088-066-225-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 16:18:15 -!- mike_ is now known as Guest55231 16:18:42 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF004.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:23:12 dlt__ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has joined #scheme 16:24:26 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:58 pretty much yeah leppie 16:25:10 And I don't know that it would not work? 16:25:44 (set! protected (hash-set protected value result)) and then once value is collected, only then is result finalized. 16:26:04 make-weak-hash being a plt specific thing I think <.< 16:28:26 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 16:29:40 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:40:53 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:27 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:53 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 16:43:02 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:26 dammit another random segfault... 16:55:42 in PQclear no less. 16:58:00 augh double free 16:59:12 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326378.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:00:03 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:21 I'm beginning to see why the spgsql guy rewrote libpq entirely, even if just to avoid using malloc. 17:01:37 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:01:44 to me the solution would be: Don't use C 17:02:01 the solution: Don't use malloc, .. seems not quite to the point 17:03:12 well... it's just that the postgresql developers themselves maintain libpq, so it's guaranteed, to a degree. 17:03:19 I'm not a big fan of reinventing the wheel. 17:04:01 Even though I'm reinventing the wheel right now. 17:08:47 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 17:09:23 It's pretty simple though. Return a result, mess with values in it, then free the result. 17:09:50 My kingdom for a reliable unwind-protect 17:10:16 -!- stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:12:30 stepnem [n=xchat@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 17:13:02 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.101.167] has joined #scheme 17:14:55 Are finalizers that hard to use in PLT Scheme? 17:19:58 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-154-57.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:52 jah [n=jah@251.138.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:20 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-250-190-120.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:23 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 17:31:25 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326378.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:33:49 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 17:34:16 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326378.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:35:32 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:38:43 -!- jah [n=jah@251.138.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:54 They shouldn't be. I'm clearly doing something wrong. 17:47:14 la la la 17:47:14 In PLT finalizers do not immediately finalize upon garbage collection, but pause said collection until a will executor executes a will to finalize that object. 17:47:27 That's the only tricky part. Supposedly it's necessary for cycles or something. 17:47:41 STILL shouldn't be causing a double free. xp 17:50:18 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-62-183-102.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:02 azharcs [n=azharcs@59.92.129.195] has joined #scheme 18:08:27 one complaint about plt's FFI is if there's no way to examine the address of a pointer, as an integer or whatnot. I need to display the address that I'm about to free, to identify where the double free is. 18:15:17 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 18:15:47 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 18:16:00 synx pasted "impossible" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77187 18:16:15 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:57 This C function for instance, is extremely difficult to use with plt's FFI. Either there would be memory leaks, or there would be double frees. 18:17:39 You would have to meticulously check all pointers previously returned from this function, to see if they're ptr-equal? to the next one. Hashing them wouldn't work at all, since there is no pointer hash function. 18:17:59 aka no procedure that gets the address of a pointer. 18:22:06 Can you be more specific about the actual problem you're trying to solve, rather than a pretend problem that is contrived to behave badly? 18:22:24 nicely said! 18:23:06 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:44 jah [n=jah@251.138.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 18:27:16 `Sorrow-away` [n=kvirc@92.4.210.217] has joined #scheme 18:28:18 <`Sorrow-away`> :D i just get into scheme programming 18:28:50 "Sorrow away"? 18:28:58 "Chega de saudade"? 18:32:04 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0DEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:34:16 dlt____ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has joined #scheme 18:35:11 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:58 -!- jah [n=jah@251.138.72-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:50:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 18:52:15 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:34 -!- eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:17 eli [n=eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:00:07 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:03:49 -!- `Sorrow-away` is now known as `sorrow` 19:07:30 jonrafkind [n=jon@nat/sun/x-daf2fa92876c4a99] has joined #scheme 19:08:39 Riastradh: A certain library is returning a pointer from a C function, that you then pass to that library's deallocation procedure. I want to verify that no two of these pointers I've collected point to the same address. 19:09:23 That's what you're trying to do to solve a problem that you have. What is the problem that you have? 19:09:29 And not nicely said. :( 19:09:31 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@189.61.141.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:58 Uh... that when I free a pointer that I've never freed before (cough) glibc aborts with a double free error. 19:11:19 Why are you stripping the context? 19:11:20 So clearly I have freed it before, but simply can't tell where or how. 19:12:10 Stripping the context? 19:12:36 Where are these pointers coming from? How are you deciding to free them? How are you freeing them? 19:15:05 I got the vague impression that libpq is involved somehow, but I don't know anything beyond that. 19:15:33 The pointers are coming from PQgetResult, I'm freeing them via PQclear, once they are ready to be garbage collected. 19:15:49 Using a finalizer, or will-executor if you prefer. 19:16:17 So, you get a pointer from PQgetResult. What are you doing with it, precisely? (Code is a very precise description, by the way.) 19:16:26 -!- mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:16:56 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:48 I call PQgetValue for each row and column of the result, decode those values, and process the decoded values. 19:17:54 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326378.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:18:08 Can you please show some actual code that you are really running and encountering errors with? 19:18:26 Well my website's kind of down... 19:18:30 lisppaste: url 19:18:30 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 19:19:06 It's an awful lot of code to paste... 19:19:18 So show just the part that I asked for. 19:19:26 You get a pointer from PQgetResult. What happens to that pointer? 19:20:10 well, for instance... 19:20:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@97.66.126.2] has joined #scheme 19:20:14 It gets stored in a table somewhere, I presume, so that later something can find it and release it. 19:20:33 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:50 synx pasted "build result cell" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77196 19:20:51 I hope you appreciate how frustrating your reticence to supply information is for people who try to help you. 19:21:06 Where does PQgetResult figure into that? 19:21:30 I don't know what information you want! 19:21:46 How and where do you call PQgetResult and what do you do with what it returns? 19:21:50 get-result is a FFI procedure to PQgetResult. And cell-value is PQgetValues... 19:22:08 I don't see any call to GET-RESULT there. 19:22:27 Do you want my finalizer code? 19:22:40 Yes. 19:23:52 synx annotated #77196 "this is probably it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77196#1 19:25:20 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:26:05 Does anything else ever call RESULT-CLEAR? 19:26:38 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:07 No nothing else does. 19:27:19 It's not an easy solution. 19:27:35 How many times do you call START-RESULT, and how many times is RESULT-CLEAR called? 19:28:29 Every time start-result is called, when result is not null, result-clear is called eventually on that result. 19:29:00 I call start-result twice for every query, once to get the result, and once to get the null value indicating end of results. 19:29:10 So you have empirically confirmed by testing that RESULT-CLEAR is called at most as many times as START-RESULT? 19:30:12 What I did was make a guard that announced when it had been instantiated, and when it was about to be finalized. 19:30:22 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 19:30:24 `Guard'? 19:30:46 Do you mean that you modified START-RESULT and RESULT-CLEAR so that they would increment counters? 19:31:03 It also errored out if somehow that finalizer got called twice. 19:31:23 I did increment a counter, yes. For naming purposes mostly. 19:31:31 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:32:16 synx annotated #77196 "guarding" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77196#2 19:33:29 If `results' are representable as integers, have you tried just representing them as integers (encased in cells to be GCable)? 19:33:39 Of course result-clear got called less than start-result, because result-clear double frees memory and the whole thing dies. 19:34:34 Riastradh: They are C pointers to an table of pairs of integer oid and bytes value. 19:35:43 I ca't represent them as anything but integers, since plt does not support getting the address of a pointer. All pointers display the same and hash as different. 19:36:59 I presume you meant `anything but pointers' -- why not? Probably your local ABI represents pointers and some type of integers identically, so that it should suffice just to change the definition of GET-RESULT to return an integer rather than a pointer. 19:37:36 (Incidentally, registering a finalizer after the resource is obtained is pretty fragile. But it looks like this fragility is codified in PLT Scheme; oh well.) 19:37:45 I did try that, but I had to mess around with some other code to turn 0 into #f, and it wasn't really helping much. 19:37:56 Huh? 19:38:07 Change START-RESULT so that zero maps to false; what else must you change? 19:38:11 Yeah I'd prefer it if register-finalizer took a thunk and returned a value myself. 19:38:37 uh... nothing really... 19:38:43 So why don't you do that? 19:38:59 Oh and also I have to divine that my pointers are int64s, but that's fine for testing. 19:39:26 synx annotated #77196 "currently" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/77196#3 19:40:08 See that's all it takes really. But I wanted to get the integer value of a pointer, without having to do that stuff. 19:40:25 Then do that -- write an FFI routine that turns a pointer into an integer. 19:43:31 Ehe that'd take C coding, but not impossible... 19:44:47 why don't you write a language agnostic interface that operates by a simple protocol (perhaps an s-expression based one) 19:45:12 (I know why you don't actually, for some reason I am suggesting it anyway) 19:52:54 kniu [n=kniu@128.237.224.75] has joined #scheme 19:58:03 hey s-expressions are tough. 19:59:26 jao [n=jao@148.Red-83-39-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:52 I'd prefer to only have to serialize/deserialize once thanks. 20:02:42 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0DEE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:06:19 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 20:07:27 Great, all my memory errors have vanished again, and all I did was add the address finding function. 20:07:50 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:08:04 Are you sure that the double-free errors arose during PQclear called by RESULT-CLEAR from a finalizer, by the way? 20:09:19 When I looked at the stack trace, PQclear was definitely in there. 20:09:37 What about RESULT-CLEAR? 20:11:37 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:48 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:13:08 Does anything in libpq's interface automatically call PQclear? 20:13:11 Riastradh: so getting back to yesterday, are you actually serious about stalin's lack of filenames for the stalin source? the rest of the lisp and programming world doesn't know something stalin does? 20:13:21 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 20:13:59 Some scheme_ffi_* functions above it. And the finalizer is the only place in my code where I call result-clear. 20:14:05 ah, nope there are the memory errors again. 20:14:35 I'm serious that meaningful names for the half dozen or so files wouldn't help you much to navigate Stalin's source code. 20:15:06 libpq specifies that neither getting the next result, nor closing the connection entirely will clear a result, that you can keep them around as long as you like, and must call PQclear on them to deallocate their memory. 20:16:07 heeeeey how about this 20:16:28 Finalizing "result 40212560" 0 20:16:56 Dozen or so, rather. 20:17:03 The first number is the address of the result when I called get-result, and passed that result to a finalizer if not null. The second number is the address of the result passed to the finalizer to finalize. 20:17:34 maybe...hm... actually... 20:17:46 glibc's free reports a double-free error if it gets a null pointer?? 20:17:48 Riastradh: ok. well I *did* split code into two files like stalin did, once. I always found myself unable to recall which file the procedure was in though 20:18:39 this problem isn't so bad when you have decent code to navigate 20:18:45 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 20:19:31 Riastradh: I'm calling PQclear, and it glibc frees pointers within the assumed result structure! 20:20:10 I think this might be a FFI bug though, because cpointers are never supposed to contain a null address. nulls always translate to #f. 20:20:21 -!- vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:37 If you set _xpointer as your return value and return NULL, it raises an exception. _xpointer/null translates it to #f. 20:21:17 nah, maybe they are allowed to contain null... I dunno. 20:22:15 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 20:22:38 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.213.94] has joined #scheme 20:24:34 meh it's probably that the cpointer's address gets overwritten to 0 by a runaway memory erasure. 20:26:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:26:21 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@nat/sun/x-daf2fa92876c4a99] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:18 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:29:08 hmm it's not 0... but doesn't think it's a c pointer...? 20:33:19 ejs [n=eugen@190-120-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:33 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 20:38:42 -!- LobsterMan is now known as LobsterMan_AFK 20:38:47 synx: if it's a substructure, how can 0 be set to #f? 20:39:26 Scheme isnt clearing the memery, C is 20:40:36 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 20:44:08 a-s [n=user@92.80.114.159] has joined #scheme 20:44:27 leppie: it checks what the C function returns. If it returns NULL, the wrapper either raises an exception or returns false, depending on how you set it. 20:44:53 anyway I don't think it's NULL after all...but it's not reporting as a pointer either... 20:44:59 but what if it is a C array, and all the items are 0 ? 20:45:26 it would still point to a valid block of memory 20:45:32 thats why it's a good practice to NULL tyour pointer after free ing them 20:45:45 proq: free wont NULL a pointer 20:45:57 leppie: true 20:46:38 or make it BEEFCACE or something to signify a free'd pointer 20:47:07 but if it is a valid pointer, it would point to a valid block of memory 20:47:34 -!- raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:01 that depends on your OS :p 20:48:50 and 0 is not universally null 20:51:32 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 20:51:57 i agree it could mean #f or 0 as well :) 20:57:32 -!- `sorrow` is now known as `sorrow-studinig 21:04:01 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 21:04:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-179.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:06:16 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 21:19:02 -!- davidad [n=me@RANDOM-FOUR-THIRTY-THREE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Success] 21:20:24 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 21:24:36 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 21:27:36 no, I meant that the other way around. NULL is not always 0 21:29:33 Be careful. A pointer with all bytes zero is not necessarily a null pointer; nor is a null pointer necessarily a pointer with all bytes zero. 21:29:48 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 21:29:48 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:29:58 On the other hand, the expressions NULL and 0 always denote null pointers to whatever type is appropriate for the context. 21:30:35 although the hardware which didn't use 0 as null (and I can't remember which it was) is no longer in use anywhere 21:30:41 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:31:19 No. 21:31:34 -!- acowley [n=acowley@pool-72-82-218-126.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31:56 There still exist non-pathological implementations of C in which there exist null pointers that are not all bytes zero. 21:32:18 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@190-120-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:11 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.50.79.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 21:34:14 jonrafkind [n=jon@pool-71-243-21-118.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:34:30 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-45-71.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:34:40 Riastradh: well being unable to find my reference, I can't remember which those are 21:39:27 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:08 acowley [n=acowley@pool-72-82-218-126.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:44:35 proq, the genera C implementation might be one of them. 21:44:56 some Multics machines had that, too, IIRC 21:46:50 singi [n=singi@85.8.10.149.static.se.wasadata.net] has joined #scheme 21:50:47 -!- Guest55231 [n=m@dslb-088-066-225-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:53:09 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 21:55:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:01:06 so eli uhm http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=sizeof.plt&owner=synx 22:01:26 I did what you suggested. I'm horrible at this stuff though, sorry. 22:01:34 Can't even get the documentation to display. 22:03:10 arcfide [n=arcfide@h-68-166-253-221.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:40 I'm trying to come up with a simple example of why SLIB doesn't play nicely with other systems, but it has been a long time since I have done this, can anyone lend a hand? 22:05:35 vicinities? 22:06:17 vicinities? 22:06:42 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 22:07:39 I don't remember the details... 22:09:53 *proq* kicks himself for only having guile 1.6.4 on his zaurus... it can't even run (cons 'car 'cdr) 22:10:24 proq: is it even a scheme if it can't cons two symbols? 22:10:54 Fare: it can, just not 'car and 'cdr 22:12:04 uh? 22:12:08 why not? 22:14:13 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:31 JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 22:15:32 *neilv* is waiting to hear, too 22:16:58 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 22:18:50 wingo-tp [n=wingo@92.Red-83-37-99.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:54 hey guys! 22:19:09 i heard something about some scheme implementation someone talked about somewhere 22:19:29 and if you evaluate `(cons 'car 'cdr)' it evaluates to 10!!!!1!! 22:19:58 I can't reproduce the bug in guile anymore. I blame the hardware 22:20:14 move along, nothing to see here 22:20:22 -!- kniu [n=kniu@128.237.224.75] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:27 heh, k :) 22:20:35 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@pool-71-243-21-118.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:09 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.114.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:39 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326478.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:21:40 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326478.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:24:16 crisis averted. everyone's ok 22:24:54 I'm not 22:30:56 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-250-190-120.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 22:31:55 ok, well I'm not going to be able to figure out this double free weirdness any more. I'm just going to upload it see if anyone else can see what's wrong. 22:32:59 -!- JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 22:34:53 synx: I could tell you right now why 22:35:53 ooh ooh 22:36:36 But seriously I want to know what's wrong not why. Why a C library might be troublesome is pretty obvious. 22:42:44 synx: url? 22:44:15 working on it... 22:44:50 http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=libpq.plt&owner=synx 22:47:50 i wrote a fancy libpq front-end for plt 2xx, but never released it. most of the work was in making it as bulletproof as possible 22:48:46 sorry, i'm not familiar with this new ffi, so i can't see anything obviously wrong to me in the code 22:49:47 a-s [n=user@92.80.114.159] has joined #scheme 22:49:57 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:52:43 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-326478.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:56:36 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:40 synx: I'm not going to have time soon to look at things too closely. 22:57:21 synx: re printing pointers -- it is possible to "turn a pointer to a number", but it's a bad idea -- since the GC can change the pointer at any time. 22:57:45 That's true eli, but these are non GC'd pointers from libPQ. 22:58:24 synx: if you just want to distinguish instances of an opaque type like ctype, the common (and proper) solution is to use a (weak) hash table to map each instance to some identifier. 22:58:28 I'm aware that a pointer's address could change under 3m. You don't explicitly deallocate garbage collected pointers anyway. 22:59:05 Two different instances may both be pointing to the same pointer though. 22:59:08 Riastradh: There is no problem registering a "finalizer" in Scheme this way. 22:59:43 -!- azharcs [n=azharcs@59.92.129.195] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:00:17 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:00:25 synx: Right; but in any case the hash solution is generally better and more robust. In any case, to look at a pointer as an integer, you basically need something like `pointer-ref' using an integer type (probably `_long'). 23:01:08 Wouldn't that get the value at the address the pointer was pointing to? 23:01:45 pointer-ref on a possibly deallocated pointer is a bad idea anyway. 23:02:31 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:33 (btw, http://download.gna.org/spells/darcs/r6rs/sbank/support/ptr-table.sls might be of interest, although I admit I haven't really followed the conversation) 23:04:44 synx: No, a pointer is an indirect Scheme object to begin with. 23:05:16 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:06:28 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 23:08:37 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-24-130-16-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 23:08:47 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Client Quit] 23:08:55 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:10 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:10:18 If pointer A has address 1, and contains 2, and C struct B is at address 2, then pointer-ref on A will return either 2 or B, but not 1. 23:10:30 ...is what I thought. 23:11:39 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-132.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:30 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:16:51 nostrand [n=rickard@h-62-207.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 23:17:00 -!- rmns [n=ramunas@78-61-90-37.static.zebra.lt] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:20:25 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0561C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:37 -!- singi [n=singi@85.8.10.149.static.se.wasadata.net] has quit ["Lämnar"] 23:28:13 acowley_ [n=acowley@pool-71-168-135-53.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:31:21 -!- bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:00 -!- kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:32:23 kazzmir [n=kazzmir@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:19 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 23:44:46 -!- acowley [n=acowley@pool-72-82-218-126.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:05 -!- RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.213.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:56:38 RageOfThou [n=RageOfTh@92.36.213.94] has joined #scheme 23:59:34 *`sorrow-studinig* is messing up with the assignment :S