00:02:45 Riastradh: I don't remember, but were the native threads in Chez sufficiently powerful enough for you? I don't recall you saying whether threads that could be made "suspendable" satisfied your desires or not. 00:07:54 s76__ [n=todos@43-63-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:09 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:11:18 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 00:16:19 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:18:47 proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 00:24:09 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:24:55 hark_ [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 00:26:06 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:32:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:42 -!- melgray [n=melgray@70.99.250.82] has quit [] 00:36:07 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:37:30 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:38:59 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #scheme 00:39:23 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-195-147-231.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:39:30 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 00:52:14 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:52:29 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 00:52:39 -!- bombshelter13 is now known as bombshelter13_ 01:02:30 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 01:03:38 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF5A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:05 incubot: i'm depressed out how brittle and yet tyrannical the world is; where every fragile man clings to his fragile domain with tooth and nail 01:05:08 "Let us be off" said fred with the foolishness that clings to boys like sweat on a humid day. 01:05:38 incubot: the age of testosterone and schadenfreude is over 01:05:41 worse was when he tested the testosterone patch. 01:10:47 Riastradh: what plt calls "syntax parameters" are not really the same as using plain parameters at the syntax level. 01:11:16 (Or maybe this is a comment for arcfide.) 01:19:57 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF3AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:10 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:29 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:27:34 aaco_ [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 01:28:14 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 01:28:16 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:20 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 01:28:23 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-189.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29:24 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:32:03 bitweiler [n=phax@adsl-69-152-94-149.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:42 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 01:40:48 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-189.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:55 benny` [n=benny@i577A0858.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 01:43:16 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:43:50 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:53 -!- bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:56:26 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:44 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:56:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0B9B.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:09:21 bitweiler: ping 02:09:33 Riastradh: hey, how do I load the xml-rpc option? 02:09:52 mmt: (load-option 'xml-rpc) ? 02:09:57 nope, tried it 02:10:00 thanks though :) 02:10:05 Hehe. 02:10:08 What are you trying to load? 02:10:31 arcfide: what's up? 02:10:49 (load-option 'XML) 02:11:01 bitweiler: How is MIT Scheme's SSP working out for you? 02:11:17 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:27 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:11:28 kk 02:11:37 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-149-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:11:44 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-149-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11:58 -!- aaco_ is now known as aaco 02:12:38 slow installing apache and mod_lisp now, mostly just be reading your code 02:12:57 Sorry, was it hard to read? 02:13:13 jso [n=user@host-170-156-107-208.midco.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:43 it's okay what is (declare (usual-integrations)) for? 02:13:59 It is an optimization declaration for MIT Scheme. 02:14:08 It is a silly declaration saying that you promise not to redefine any standard bindings. 02:14:44 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-84-44-168-169.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:14:58 (If you do, your code may have unpredictable behaviour.) 02:15:37 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:53 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-149-228.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 02:16:24 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFF5A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:08 is ` && , serve the same purpose as it does on cl 02:19:35 Same purpose, yes. There are some subtle differences in how they work between Scheme and CL. 02:19:40 Generally, they work more sensibly in Scheme. 02:26:32 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:32:11 One advantage is that you know what they expand into, in Scheme, and thus can use them yourself. You don't know what you're going to get in CL. 02:32:20 s/they expand into/the lexer expands them into 02:36:50 -!- joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:46:55 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:30 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:41 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 02:58:06 jcowan: what? 02:58:34 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:58:51 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:00:43 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:02:07 BACKQUOTE, UNQUOTE, SPLICING-UNQUOTE 03:02:32 so for example if your program uses READ to read s-expressions, and sees ",foo", it will return (UNQUOTE FOO). 03:02:50 No such guarantees are provided by CL. 03:02:56 (modulo some typos) 03:02:58 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 03:03:02 i see 03:04:03 (The names are QUASIQUOTE, UNQUOTE, and UNQUOTE-SPLICING.) 03:05:11 kspaans_ [i=kspaans@artificial-flavours.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 03:05:33 yes 03:05:37 *jcowan* attempts to persuade clisp to reveal what it uses, but without success 03:05:53 '`() 03:05:53 '`x doesn't show anything? 03:06:26 (It is not specified, anyway, whether the transformation happens at read-time or at macro-expand-time.) 03:06:58 Yes, it replies `x. 03:07:12 What about (CAR '`X)? 03:07:32 SYSTEM::BACKQUOTE. 03:08:24 That was the right idea. The other tokens are SYSTEM::UNQUOTE and SYSTEM::SPLICE. 03:09:48 does that mean you can't say (quasiquote x) ? 03:16:19 Sure you can. It means neither more nor less than `x. 03:16:44 -!- kspaans [i=kspaans@artificial-flavours.csclub.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:35 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:24 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:20:33 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:02 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:24:04 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:25:44 gnomon_ [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:28:04 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-29.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:19 fadein [n=fadein@c-98-202-166-220.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:00 just as (quote x) means neither more nor less than 'x. 03:31:00 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:31:13 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:34:02 interesting 03:34:17 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:34:47 the usual way of implementing symbols is with a global hash table right? 03:39:34 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:39:47 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:40:24 there aren't many other reasonable implementations 03:41:24 Riastradh: While you're at it, perhaps fix: uxproc.c:322: warning: ignoring return value of 'chdir', declared with attribute warn_unused_result 03:41:29 It doesn't have to be a *hash* table, it could be a tree. 03:41:40 sure 03:41:52 In tinyscheme it's a list! 03:42:14 I was just going to say, in historic and small Lisps it is a list, hence the name "oblist". 03:42:15 I have a scheme which makes short symbols immediate by storing their compressed character data with a tag. 03:42:18 geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 03:43:14 foof: won't you get collisions then? 03:43:45 Not if the compression is lossless 03:43:49 No, two symbols can't compress to the same value, that would be a hash function, not compression. 03:44:05 then how can they be eq? ? 03:44:16 foof: stalin also uses a list for interned symbols! 03:44:20 The same symbol always compresses to the same value. 03:44:40 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:46:50 foof: but they have different addresses 03:47:04 Riastradh: hey, XML-RPC is working very well :) 03:47:05 bsmntbombdood: It's an _immediate_. There is no address. 03:47:47 Riastradh: I'm getting values to/from python pretty reasonably, using unique IDs to handle opaque things 03:47:48 mejja, hmm, it would be better to open the directory first in the parent and then use fchdir, but I'll commit the simple fix for now. 03:47:53 Riastradh: like function pointers 03:48:12 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:48:25 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:48:32 Riastradh: my one problem is that dictionaries get mapped to association lists; which are hard to distinguish from lists 03:48:56 i've run into that too 03:49:11 The Chicken JSON egg handles that by using a vector of pairs for a dictionary rather than a list of pairs. 03:49:13 -!- jso [n=user@host-170-156-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:30 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:49:36 Irritatingly non-extensible, though. 03:51:05 It is indeed irritatingly inextensible. However, xml-rpc.scm is pretty short. You could cannibalize it easily. 03:51:39 So, Riastradh, I would just like to take the time to thank you for writing your RDF code. :-) 03:52:20 Because of that, I just might be able to produce something this semester. 03:52:21 :-) 03:53:14 Also, it is not completely inextensible, either. 03:53:38 You can dynamically bind *XML-RPC:DECODE-VALUE-HANDLER* and *XML-RPC:ENCODE-VALUE-HANDLER* to postprocess the decoded values and preprocess the values to be encoded. 03:54:39 The distinction between `structs' and `arrays' is that structs consist of lists of pairs whose cars are symbols, and `arrays' are not. 03:55:33 That is, unless in your *XML-RPC:DECODE-VALUE-HANDLER* you map objects that might occur in lists to pairs whose cars are symbols. 03:56:43 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:56:56 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 03:58:30 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:20 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:05:20 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:08:03 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 04:10:34 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:12:29 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:36 -!- davidad [n=me@RANDOM-ONE-TWENTY-NINE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:18:57 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:19:10 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:27:36 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:27:49 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:31:31 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:11 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:36:24 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:37:32 Hey in plt classes, when I use (init a b c) I often have to do (init _a _b _c) (define a _a) (define b _b) (define c _c). Is there any way to avoid that? 04:41:02 davidad [n=me@RANDOM-THREE-EIGHTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:42:48 `init-field'? 04:42:52 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:44:37 that seems to work oddly... 04:44:43 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:44:49 not evenly? 04:44:56 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:45:02 (init-fields a b c) and then I can access those in my class, but (set! a 3) says a is unbound. 04:45:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:48:25 ...is what I thought, but the use-case seems to indicate that's not true at all. Must be a typo somewhere... 04:49:24 seoushi_ [n=seoushi@c-67-186-243-205.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:49:41 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #scheme 04:51:16 yeah, must have typed it as temporory? or something *shrugs* sorry about that. 04:52:50 quick question does mod_lisp work well with Apache ver.2? 04:53:10 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:53:23 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 04:54:36 nevermind i see mod_lisp2 does it 04:59:37 -!- gnomon_ is now known as gnomon 05:01:26 -!- seoushi [n=seoushi@c-67-186-243-205.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:01:33 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:01:36 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:01:49 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 05:02:58 -!- seoushi_ is now known as seoushi 05:07:02 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [K-lined] 05:10:13 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176200056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:10:13 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-149-228.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:12:28 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:03 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-195-147-231.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:17:19 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 05:19:23 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-229.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:19:33 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 05:27:11 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176215115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:24 -!- ttmrichter__ [n=ttmricht@59.172.141.82] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:31:25 -!- bitweiler [n=phax@adsl-69-152-94-149.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit ["off to dreamland"] 05:31:41 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 05:40:20 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@58.49.244.195] has joined #scheme 05:40:25 -!- fadein [n=fadein@c-98-202-166-220.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 05:50:55 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:59:17 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:00:10 -!- seoushi [n=seoushi@c-67-186-243-205.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:15 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:13:01 -!- incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:18:05 incubot [i=incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 06:21:51 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 06:27:11 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:27:29 wartalker [n=wartalke@210.51.173.167] has joined #scheme 06:36:00 mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has joined #scheme 06:47:57 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:58:25 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:43 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:17 -!- wartalker [n=wartalke@210.51.173.167] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:06:03 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:07:39 ASau [n=user@host9-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #scheme 07:07:43 -!- troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 07:09:37 -!- raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:13:54 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:02 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.210.39] has quit [] 07:15:28 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 07:17:01 wartalker [n=wartalke@210.51.173.167] has joined #scheme 07:17:17 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 07:18:38 (list 'and and) : Syntactic keyword may not be used as an expression: and. i am studying sicp amb 07:18:43 why 07:19:08 Because "and" is syntax. 07:19:38 (and (display 'this) (display 'that)) 07:19:45 (and (display 'this) #f (display 'that)) 07:19:59 (list 'car car) is ok 07:20:18 Because "car" is procedure, it isn't syntax. 07:20:57 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 07:22:07 csmrEFX [i=csmr@paha.arkkitehti.e21.fi] has joined #scheme 07:22:21 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 07:23:34 ASau: what's the difference? 07:24:35 Does anyone use SXSLT? 07:25:39 wartalker: The difference is the like that between noun and conjunction. 07:25:48 I'm scheme noob but work with xslt and get my bills paid with xslt. 07:25:55 ASau: thanks 07:25:56 Conjunction doesn't point to an object. 07:26:00 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:27:54 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:58 I was thinking of writing shorthand xslt parser in ruby but sxslt 'promises' are great. 07:28:27 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:23 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:29:50 does anyone recall whether @ as a symbol is legal in final r6rs? 07:30:24 Does it matter? 07:32:02 i mean, is it read as a symbol by the reader? 07:32:19 at one point, it was not going to be 07:32:35 neilv: it is 07:33:13 johnnowak: then how do they read ,@ ? 07:34:19 neilv: i just know that @ is listed as an "extended alphabet" character 07:34:29 see section 4.2.4 07:34:48 apologies if i'm telling you what you already know 07:35:47 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 07:35:48 i see that. i'm just not finding where they say what the reader does. since there was a big issue, i'm expecting to find the resolution very clear somewhere :) 07:37:51 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:43:43 higepon859 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 07:52:35 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53:23 Is scheme North American language? 07:53:48 Yes. 07:53:56 European tradition is to use syntax. 07:54:03 Cf. SML. 07:54:55 Or Poplog. 07:55:12 I'd rather not :) 07:55:56 Why? 07:56:07 SML is really nice language. 07:57:08 Well, I should, and would, given 29h per day. For now I must focus on transforming XML. 07:57:36 nice save for the syntax perhaps 07:59:23 Ok, stupid q: is scheme compiled or interpreted? 07:59:40 Oh, please. 07:59:54 Both? 07:59:54 NO language is "compiled or interpreted." 08:00:35 Pardon my ignorance. Sadly I didn't have the opportunity to spend years studying CS. 08:01:01 For some languages simply it is easier to build interpreter, for other it is easier to build compiler. 08:01:51 Never heard of C interpreter or Ecmascript compiler, though. 08:01:57 csmrEFX: there are both scheme compilers and scheme interpreters; the standard doesn't dictate which you have to use of course 08:01:58 If you ever used Turbo Pascal, you know that it is almost interpreter. 08:02:04 csmrEFX: there are C interpreters 08:02:58 Ok, whats a good scheme interpreter/compiler that I could use on GNU/Linux and Win 08:03:18 c/should 08:03:27 csmrEFX: what are you looking to do with it? 08:04:00 Learn scheme, and if sxml/sxslt have enough functionality, perhaps build something with 'em. 08:04:57 Let's start Religious War! 08:04:57 I'm using Chicken to build web interface. 08:05:01 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:05:03 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 08:05:15 Studied java, didn't like, ruby, liked, xslt, liked it in a perverted way. 08:05:25 there's no other way to like xslt 08:05:27 So, scheme seems logical even. 08:05:36 csmrEFX: i'd try plt scheme first. if you need to compile to C, try chicken. 08:05:57 plt comes with a nice ide that should make things easier and it has some sxml libraries 08:06:22 Are there big differences there? Meaning hours of learning/changing code? 08:06:50 small differences 08:07:22 different module system, different exceptions, cons cells are immutable in plt 08:07:45 portability amongst implementations isn't scheme's strong suit 08:08:05 PLT has problems with portability, Chicken doesn't. 08:08:49 More q? :) Whats a good scheme tutorial or book for someone who knows ruby&xslt? 08:09:12 csmrEFX: the plt guide and manual really are quite good 08:09:23 Simply forget Ruby. 08:09:42 csmrEFX: there's also http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme.html but i'm not personally a fan 08:09:48 You need quite another use patterns. 08:10:12 csmrEFX: if you don't have any functional programming background, scheme may be a bit weird at first 08:10:30 xslt ís functional, afaik 08:10:43 LobsterMan [n=a@host72-50.student.udel.edu] has joined #scheme 08:11:26 csmrEFX: Many Javascript implementations are much closer to compiler than to interpreters. 08:11:48 csmrEFX: But the distinction between the two is really not an either-or thing. 08:11:51 ASau: how exactly is it that PLT has problems that chicken does not have? 08:12:12 uh-oh 08:12:14 Here we go 08:12:19 *johnnowak* hides behind a rock 08:12:37 Was just wondering what to call the scheme *implementations* before I figured out they are called implementations in english 08:12:49 csmrEFX: I use sxslt btw, I also wrote a tutorial for it 08:12:58 eli: if you want precise build log, I'll provide one later in the evening. 08:13:27 Do you use scheme in productions or business environment? Ie. anyone get paid for scheme programs? 08:13:46 csmrEFX: i've been paid to use plt scheme for web development 08:13:51 csmrEFX: FWIW, most "serious" Scheme implementations are much closer to compilers than to interpreters. 08:14:42 ASau: (a) The "portability" that was mentioned earlier was in regards to moving between Schemes, and (b) yes, if you had build problems then feel free to mail/paste/whatever one. 08:15:27 So it is at least theoretically possible to make real-world deployable products with scheme? 08:15:46 -!- wartalker [n=wartalke@210.51.173.167] has left #scheme 08:15:48 In vein of C/Java/Perl/etc... 08:15:51 it's certainly possible; if you can find anyone to pay you for it is another issue 08:15:55 csmrEFX: No, it is practically possible to do so. 08:16:10 Is it practical? 08:16:21 As in C or Ruby practical? 08:16:23 "theoretically" doesn't go well with "real-world deployable"... 08:16:31 its a start 08:16:46 Yes, it is practical as C or Ruby. 08:17:00 more practical than ruby i'd say.. 08:17:05 (Even more practical in most cases.) 08:17:09 Ever used ruby? 08:17:14 *sjamaan* has 08:17:16 *johnnowak* has 08:17:41 i tend to avoid languages that couldn't manage to get basic scoping issues right for 15 years 08:17:56 Or are still slow as molasses 08:17:59 Mind if I top it off asking you if you are CS students, professional developers, hobbyists or other? 08:18:27 csmrEFX: I studied AI and a year of CS, and am a professional developer but also a hobbyist ;) 08:19:07 *johnnowak* studied design and is stupidly trying to make money on iphone software until grad school 08:20:04 Myself am a art BA with a decade in web dev, did study AI & robotics in CMU tho ;) 08:20:16 *ASau* didn't study CS at all and still finds Scheme more useful. 08:21:42 Hm, I wonder what VIM likes of scheme... 08:22:52 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:23:21 csmrEFX: i was most recently working on a large web-based system in plt scheme that was very much rock-solid production use 08:24:10 csmrEFX: http://vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/if_mzsch.html#MzScheme 08:24:36 Whats the .extension for scheme? 08:24:49 usually .scm or .ss 08:26:40 Nice talking with you *tup* Back to the forge... 08:26:56 -!- csmrEFX is now known as csmrFX_away 08:38:15 raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has joined #scheme 08:39:05 voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has joined #scheme 08:40:21 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:49 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 08:44:16 What should I use for "destructuring-bind" in Scheme? 08:44:22 Any SRFI on that? 08:44:38 plt has various pattern-matching libraries 08:44:50 -!- voidengineer [n=Stephen@75.139.179.172] has left #scheme 08:45:15 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-92-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 08:45:19 and sometimes people use destructuring-bind for function arguments, when you might be able to use other plt features for that 08:46:02 what exactly do you need to do? 08:46:26 *ASau* sighs. 08:46:39 Alright, I'll implement it, if there's define-syntax. 08:47:01 you want the general facility, not to solve a particular problem, i take it? 08:47:35 http://pschombe.wordpress.com/2006/03/10/destructuring-bind/ 08:48:06 neilv: i'm guessing ASau is the type that wants exactly what he asked for 08:48:34 like a marlboro man 08:48:43 ASau: Many Scheme implementations implement a syntax called MATCH. 08:49:01 There's a portable implementation at 08:51:28 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:51:42 There's also case-lambda which is reasonably common 08:52:07 (srfi-16) 08:52:38 Also in R6RS. 08:53:19 It's probably the best way to implement procedures whose behavior varies drastically based on the number of arguments (like `-' and `/'). 08:53:50 It's a pretty horrible way to implement procedures with optional arguments. 08:54:32 I think there's also another SRFI for optional arguments, isn't there? 08:54:34 It would be a very, very clumsy way to do destructuring-bind. 08:54:44 plt 4 has extended the "define" and "lambda" syntax with stuff for optional and keyword arguments 08:54:51 Just using APPLY on a normal LAMBDA would be a better way to DB. 08:54:52 Without an example from ASau, it's hard to determine what would be best :) 08:55:04 He said he wanted DB. 08:55:40 That means there's only one case, which makes CASE-LAMBDA extremely pointless :) 08:55:47 :) 08:56:19 Maybe I can do a trick to reduce it to case-lambda. 08:56:34 The question is how many such tricks I need to implement. 08:57:00 ASau: No, you _don't_ want case-lambda if DB is what you really want to do. 08:57:39 Actually, if I start tricky play, I can easily make assigns via regular lambda. 08:57:41 (apply (lambda (a b c) ...) ls) <- destructure a list of 3 values 08:58:25 i do that all the time for binding to the result of plt's regexp-matching procedures 08:58:29 I thought about ((lambda (a b c) ...) (list-expr)) 08:58:33 :) 09:05:03 damn, I jumped to conversation trying to understand, how (apply (lambda (a b c) ...) can be DESTRUCTIVE ;) 09:06:15 it'll blow your mind 09:06:39 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:08:30 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:51 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 09:19:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-92-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:36 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 09:20:40 -!- higepon859 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:17 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:27:32 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:30:17 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:32:28 ejs2 [n=eugen@94-248-92-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 09:35:26 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:42:24 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 09:42:34 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:19 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 09:43:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:43:30 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:27 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:52:14 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@94-248-92-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:10 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:11:22 -!- jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:24 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:11:37 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 10:17:06 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 10:31:13 -!- csmrFX_away is now known as csmrFX 10:34:05 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFDAE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:41:18 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:59 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-10-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 10:52:21 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:52:36 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 10:56:15 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 11:00:26 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has quit [] 11:07:47 So, how about scheme and L-parser? 11:10:12 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:11:29 I've never written a Lindemayer parser, but would scheme be the suitable language for such an effort? 11:12:23 Why do you want it? 11:13:02 If you want to work with XML, why don't you use SXML? 11:13:32 I want to generate 3D geometry by 'mutating' and 'crossing' L-tree like rule-strings, ultimately. 11:13:44 Those XML cases are for web-projects. 11:19:10 I'm not even sure if L-parser is somehow inherently 2D by nature or if matrix transformations for such would be real hairy in 3D but it seems like a nice project 11:19:51 what are those called actually. L-system is probably the correct term. 11:21:27 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 11:25:13 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 11:26:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-10-109.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:17 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 11:34:02 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:47 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 11:48:20 -!- raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:58 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 12:21:41 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] has quit [] 12:22:41 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 12:23:04 -!- kspaans_ is now known as kspaans 12:46:05 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-219.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 12:56:20 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 12:58:04 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 12:58:33 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:59 noamsml [n=quassel@75.46.2.162] has joined #scheme 13:20:36 joelmccracken_ [n=joelmccr@CMU-221270.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 13:21:19 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 13:24:33 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:25:39 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:27:14 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 13:30:33 dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 13:34:10 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 13:37:51 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:38:20 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:40:22 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-53-2.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 13:41:48 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:58 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 13:55:09 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:55:28 raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has joined #scheme 13:56:10 dlt____ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 13:58:25 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:32 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 14:03:17 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:04:25 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:50 mmt, use (LIST 'NONE) rather than '(NONE) to get a unique object. The compiler may copy the quoted constant, or coalesce multiple copies of it. 14:09:50 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:27 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:11:24 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 14:13:33 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 14:14:47 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:15:08 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:17:31 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:25 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:39 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:20:42 jah [n=jah@253.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:53 -!- jah [n=jah@253.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:42 jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 14:25:45 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:09 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 14:31:26 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:52 -!- mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:33:02 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:41:11 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:42:23 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:31 -!- LobsterMan is now known as LobsterMan_AFK 14:48:34 Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #scheme 14:50:31 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:51:43 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:54:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 14:54:42 -!- bombshelter13 is now known as bombshelter13_ 14:59:03 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.210.39] has joined #scheme 14:59:44 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:01 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:00:04 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:40 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:43 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:10:00 fadein [n=fadein@c-98-202-166-220.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:12:32 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:36 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 15:13:56 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 15:15:28 -!- raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:22 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:16:22 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:18:00 arcfide [n=arcfide@iub-vpn-207-99.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 15:18:17 Hello everyone. 15:20:05 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl064.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 15:21:07 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-64-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:43 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 15:24:27 sez you 15:26:42 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:30:58 -!- jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:14 -!- ASau [n=user@host9-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 15:36:58 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:39:02 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:00 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:28 dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-83-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:49:31 jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 15:49:57 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 15:54:27 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:14 hemulen [n=hemulen@nmd.sbx00724.richmva.wayport.net] has joined #scheme 16:03:26 -!- davidad [n=me@RANDOM-THREE-EIGHTY-TWO.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:40 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 16:05:37 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #scheme 16:06:31 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:09:48 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 16:10:03 raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has joined #scheme 16:10:41 -!- jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:51 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:14:30 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f09:979:0:0:0:14] has left #scheme 16:14:51 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 16:16:35 jah [n=jah@253.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 16:18:04 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:20:47 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 16:21:24 Will be any Scheme gsoc projects this year? 16:22:33 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 16:24:54 Woz dances: "like watching a Teletubby going mad" 16:24:58 hahaha 16:31:24 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:51 -!- jah [n=jah@253.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:27 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:38:17 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-24-83-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:11 davidad [n=me@wireless-25-60.media.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:47:10 Will there be any Scheme gsoc projects any year? 16:49:25 Is there a system call on systems that let's me know whether a descriptor (say, from a socket) is closed or not? 16:50:43 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 16:52:27 arcfide: Call fstat(2), the result is EBADF if the fd isn't a valid open file descriptor. 16:53:27 From an external process, you check the /proc filesystem or the output of lsof. 16:56:55 bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:57:48 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:58:21 jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.247] has joined #scheme 16:59:26 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f09:979:0:0:0:14] has joined #scheme 17:01:06 jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 17:01:49 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has joined #scheme 17:03:12 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@195.159.114.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:55 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:08:13 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:14:19 -!- raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:33 -!- jgracin__ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:18:06 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5452.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:32 -!- vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Quitting!"] 17:23:10 vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:26:17 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 17:39:45 bluepojo [n=josiah@67.205.244.250] has joined #scheme 17:39:51 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:40:28 Hey.. I'm newer to scheme, and lisp in general. If I want to make an iterator in scheme, how can i make it such that each time I call the iterator it returns the next value? 17:41:04 I'm struggling with figuring out where to store the current value of the iterator 17:41:25 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:40 bluepojo what's an iterator 17:43:40 something that counts 17:43:42 ie: 17:44:07 ie: (define next (iterator '(0 2 7))) 17:44:12 then when I call next 17:44:24 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:24 so (next) ~> 0 first time 17:44:28 then (next) ~> 2 17:44:30 etc 17:44:32 right 17:44:46 I will show you the trick 17:44:49 usually you would write 17:44:53 (define iterator 17:44:56 (lambda (elements) 17:44:58 ...)) 17:45:03 only more specifically: the 0 is the start, the 2 is the increment, and the 7 is the max number. 17:45:09 but in this case you can do 17:45:22 actually that was it 17:45:42 bluepojo, then you should do (iterator 0 2 7) 17:45:43 ..? 17:45:45 don't make it a list 17:45:55 oh ok 17:45:59 so 17:46:05 (define (iterator start increment limit) 17:46:08 (lambda () 17:46:10 ...)) 17:46:30 each time you call the inner lambda procedure, that could increment start using SET! and then give a value 17:46:31 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:46:59 I see. 17:47:08 let me look up set! documentation 17:47:13 r5rs set! 17:47:13 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_102 17:47:15 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/apfdqp 17:47:32 oh nice 17:48:30 schemers.org isn't loading on my end. =/ 17:49:47 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:50:07 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:18 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 17:52:59 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #scheme 17:59:46 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:00:57 incubot: specialization is for insects; if by "insects" you mean doctors of philosophy 18:01:00 in that case doctors should determine whether they're likely to do themselves any serious harm 18:01:11 indeed 18:01:53 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@88-202-213-29.rdns.as8401.net] has quit [] 18:02:43 so this is what I have: 18:02:45 (define iterator 18:02:45 (lambda (start step stop) 18:02:45 (if (<= step 0) 18:02:45 '() 18:02:45 (if (< start stop) 18:02:46 (set! start (+ start step)) 18:02:48 '() )))) 18:02:55 lisppaste: url 18:02:55 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 18:02:56 I feel as if I'm missing something basic. 18:03:09 lisppaste: url 18:03:09 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 18:03:10 bluepojo: use lisppaste for > 3 lines 18:03:15 arcfide: jinx 18:03:17 oooh 18:03:18 ok 18:03:19 sorry 18:03:42 arcfide pasted "List Iterator" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76775 18:04:22 I appreciate the help arcfide 18:04:23 ;) 18:04:45 hm. 18:04:48 bluepojo, didn't try what I suggested? 18:04:48 bluepojo: Your exercise is to extend that into a higher-order procedure that creates generalized iterators. 18:04:58 vixey: I tried 18:05:01 vixey: that's what I did 18:05:07 vixey: apparently I misunderstood 18:05:09 no you wrote something a bit different 18:05:20 start with: (define (iterator start increment limit) (lambda () ...)) 18:05:37 a call like (iterator 1 2 7) makes a new procedure (that's what lambda is) 18:05:46 oooh right 18:05:48 now I understand 18:05:52 so then you could (define foo (iterator 1 2 7)) now foo is a procedure 18:05:59 so (foo) will do /something/ 18:06:09 ok, I didn't quite get it the first time 18:06:15 thanks for the explanation 18:06:19 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056C51.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:07:07 bluepojo pasted "lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76779 18:08:40 woo that works perfectly 18:08:41 barney [n=bernhard@p549A07AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:08:44 thanks so much vixey 18:08:52 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056C51.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:09:07 (this my first scheme program... forgive my slowness. ;) ) 18:09:20 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 18:09:29 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 18:09:48 bluepojo: Are you coming from another language, like Java, C#, Python, or something that has this sort of iterator? 18:10:02 most of my work is in php, ruby and java 18:10:04 so... yeah 18:10:38 I work primarily in web applications 18:11:08 bluepojo: You may want to consider seeing how other people have done things in Scheme before you with regards to this. Iterators like the ones you are using are not as widespread as in the above languages you mentioned. 18:12:01 Oftentimes, you'll use something like for-each or map. Other times, you might have a set of looping macros like foof loop to do the work in a slightly different manner. I recommend you learn to use things like fold, map, and for-each. 18:12:13 this is really just to play around with the language, as I'm not writing anything serious at the moment, but point taken... are there any good example apps? 18:12:26 Example apps of what? 18:13:05 bluepojo: this is a vignette of examples, http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 18:13:06 just for people getting started in scheme, like how there are example Ruby on Rails apps for people to poke around in when they're getting started. 18:13:15 klutometis: thanks 18:13:24 I'll poke around those 18:14:41 it's odd: I can ping schemers.org, but I can't get it to load in Fx. 18:16:33 bluepojo: If you want examples of web programming in Scheme, there is the very large system of PLT's Web Server, which powers PlaneT, or you can check out Magic by Ed Watkeys, which was inspired as a research framework for a Ruby on Rails type environment in Scheme. 18:16:46 centrinia [n=exc@adsl-224-111-171.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:57 You also have MIT Scheme's mod_lisp library, which is more like mod_php type stuff using url handlers to serve pages through something like Apache. 18:17:17 wow. 18:17:31 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:17:41 there's a lot more to scheme than I realized. 18:18:21 the only lisp I poke around regularly is elisp... given I use emacs heavily. I picked up scheme at a whim. ;) 18:18:24 I have the starts of a blog framework written in MIT Scheme's mod_lisp, but it may be beyond your current level at the moment. 18:18:30 probably 18:18:40 do you have it hosted somewhere? 18:18:45 like github, or somesuch? 18:19:01 would be interesting to see what higher level scheme looks like. 18:19:46 I took it off of my CVS server because I haven't had a lot of time to hack on it, but I'll be bringing it back sometime soon. You can find a packaging of it at: . 18:19:57 I wouldn't call it higher level, because a lot of the code is only partially fleshed out. 18:20:02 ah ok. 18:20:14 But it is functional. I ran my own blog with it for a while. 18:20:24 don't see too many people using cvs any more. 18:20:32 Hehe, or Gopher. ;-) 18:20:32 Or gopher :P 18:20:33 that's cool 18:20:38 right hah 18:20:49 I'm a fan of git, lately. 18:21:13 *centrinia* wonders if there is a Gofer page on Gopher. 18:21:30 bluepojo: If you want to see something else, the Gopher server is actually written in Scheme. 18:21:47 ah nice. 18:22:32 If you are really eager, I have a web based system monitoring program written in Scheme. 18:22:41 haha, one thing at a time 18:22:46 Hehe. 18:23:02 Just thought I would bombard you with too much information, and then let you sort it out later. ;-) 18:23:06 monitoring for traffic? 18:23:18 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:23:22 or like server monitoring? 18:23:31 It was a contract for monitoring the status of servers, their load, &c. 18:23:37 ah ok 18:23:45 But Slogger is more fun. 18:23:48 I bet. 18:23:58 slogger is just for blogging? 18:24:26 -!- hark_ is now known as hark 18:24:27 how does it take in new posts and such? 18:24:33 Well, it is basically a blogging framework, but it could be extended to anything that acts like it. 18:24:42 ooh I see. 18:24:51 bluepojo: Right now, you write the posts directly into a directory structure as an S-expression. 18:25:03 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:25:10 So, you would edit a file and it would look like an alist. 18:25:24 ((subject . "Blah") (date . "blah") (body . "...")) 18:25:29 ah right 18:25:36 I didn't ever write the web submission part. ;-) 18:25:44 doubt it'd be hard 18:25:50 even a cli would be easy 18:25:53 easier 18:25:55 No, but I had little motivation to do so. 18:25:57 right 18:26:04 if you're the only one using it. ;p 18:26:09 Hehe, yeah. :-) 18:26:35 However, I'm going to be putting it back into service in a project here pretty soon, which means I'll have to expand it out with all the features it needs for production use. 18:27:12 one last thing for this iterator... I thought it'd return an empty list when it ran out of numbers but I keep getting ";Value 12: #[compound-procedure 12]" 18:27:14 ah cool 18:27:36 when I run it in a run-scheme buffer 18:27:48 oh oops 18:27:49 sec 18:27:56 nevermind, it works fine 18:27:57 lol 18:27:58 :-) 18:28:06 I called next rather than (next) 18:28:08 ;) 18:28:43 you catching on quick for a newcomer :) 18:29:12 good to hear. hah. 18:29:15 leppie: He's a secret quality control mystery newbie. 18:29:41 Sent by chandler to make sure we're on top of our game. 18:29:51 lol 18:29:54 arcfide: clearly. freenode hired me to gather 'niceness' metrics from all of the channels. 18:30:02 so I come in and ask silly questions. 18:30:11 and see how the regs respond. 18:30:21 *arcfide* recalls the recent trolling escapade. 18:30:23 Ah, fun times. 18:30:35 what's this about a trolling escapade? 18:30:45 troll troll troll your boat.. 18:30:45 #scheme, don't troll us, we'll troll you. 18:31:14 bluepojo: Oh, just a little fun seeing how reactionary the other channels were. ;-) 18:31:22 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-186-234.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 18:31:26 hah 18:31:46 pity the poor person who asks a rails question in #ruby. 18:32:12 Eh? You have done this? 18:32:16 >_> 18:32:18 <_< 18:32:25 I didn't know there was a #rubyonrails channel... 18:32:35 I kinda assumed #ruby was the end all for ruby questions. ;) 18:32:37 bluepojo: What do they answer? "RAILS IS NOT RUBY MKAY"? 18:32:43 close. 18:32:48 hehe 18:33:08 I guess the hardcore rubyists are going insane from all the Rails newbies :) 18:33:11 they had a fist fight first about who was gonna say what :p 18:33:16 #rubyonrails was a shithole last I checked 18:33:24 it's not too bad.. 18:33:33 there's one troll who is now a reg-troll... 18:33:38 heh 18:33:40 but other than him, it's ok. 18:33:50 least lately. hah 18:33:51 it's about on par with #macosx 18:34:19 Alright, I'm out of here! 18:34:21 See you. 18:34:22 later 18:34:24 thanks again 18:34:25 bye 18:34:33 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@iub-vpn-207-99.noc.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:23 -!- LobsterMan_AFK is now known as LobsterMan 18:36:43 melgray [n=melgray@c-71-197-146-242.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:38:09 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:38:15 jao [n=jao@221.Red-79-155-152.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:39:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:43:09 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:51:06 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:21 -!- joelmccracken_ is now known as JoelMcCracken 18:55:12 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:39 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-203-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:49 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-186-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:59 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-186-234.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:00:06 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-186-234.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:35 -!- ski [n=slj@c-8913e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:39 ski [n=slj@c-8913e055.1149-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:01:48 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:13:44 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 19:20:53 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 19:22:05 so... till schemers.org comes back up. 19:22:15 can someone explain how to use a for-each just quickly? 19:22:21 can't find another place for documentation 19:22:27 google is not helping so much 19:22:28 Google for the `R5RS'. 19:22:41 kam [n=km@71-212-171-60.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 19:23:19 I see 19:26:27 wingo-tp [n=wingo@153.Red-79-156-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:27:59 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-186-234.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 19:28:42 Riastradh: thanks 19:29:48 yeah scheme is hard to search for on google 19:30:57 Yeah, when I Google `Scheme language', I don't get *anything* relevant... 19:30:58 *Riastradh* coughs. 19:31:07 google sucks anyway 19:31:36 (schemers.org works for me.) 19:31:42 hm. 19:31:45 still doesn't load for me. 19:31:47 vixey: What search engine do you use? 19:31:49 dns problem maybe 19:31:51 Can you ping it, bluepojo? 19:31:55 google :( 19:32:00 vixey uses gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/7/v2/vs 19:32:02 The Derbyshire Language Scheme is an intervention programme which targets early language skills. 19:32:08 lol 19:32:08 cool :p 19:32:14 yeah I can ping it... 19:32:17 just doesn't load 19:32:47 loads for me 19:33:05 When you say `doesn't load', do you mean that any TCP connection is refused, or that schemers.org doesn't respond to TCP connection requests, or that the web server doesn't serve a page after you connect and send a request? 19:33:16 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A07AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:35:06 it times out 19:35:19 The TCP connection request, or the HTTP GET request? 19:35:22 and... now it's back 19:35:22 tadaa 19:35:35 that I don't know 19:35:54 it works now, however. transient issue, I guess. 19:38:23 hah my ping was still running in the background 19:38:32 reads: 72% packet loss 19:38:35 o_O 19:38:57 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@nmd.sbx00724.richmva.wayport.net] has quit [] 19:46:05 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 19:52:37 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:01 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 20:01:27 hemulen [n=hemulen@64.241.37.140] has joined #scheme 20:02:05 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:36 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-229.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:17 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@CMU-221270.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:15:40 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:00 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 20:21:44 -!- centrinia [n=exc@adsl-224-111-171.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:34:58 f(n) = n if n<3 and f(n) = f(n - 1) + 2f(n - 2) + 3f(n - 3) if n> 3 20:35:17 given a recursive solution to that, is the big O going to be linear for time and space? 20:36:48 sounds like a homework problem to me :) 20:36:52 :\ 20:37:13 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 20:37:29 i'm looking at the solution here http://www.kendyck.com/archives/2005/03/22/solution-to-sicp-exercise-111/ 20:37:45 and recursive is pretty obvious, but iterative is just O_o so i'm ignoring that portion for now 20:39:44 is the big O going to be linear -- no 20:39:50 f(n) = f(n - 1) + 2f(n - 2) + 3f(n - 3) 20:39:55 this rule splits into 3 20:40:01 so it will be super linear 20:40:15 is that sarcasm? lol 20:40:30 super linear means above linear 20:40:36 for example x^2 and e^x are super linear 20:41:09 oh so like...superlinear 20:41:10 heh 20:41:24 LobsterMan: try drawing the recursion tree and you'll see why that's the case 20:44:52 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:45:12 so f(4) = 10? 20:45:55 oh wait... 20:46:20 LobsterMan: do you know how to code this f in Scheme? 20:46:41 well recursively, that function is basically how it's written in scheme 20:47:12 so you can try (f 4) in Scheme to get an error free answer 20:47:25 it returns 11 20:47:31 but that's not what i'm getting on paper 20:47:37 so i'm messing up somewhere lol 20:48:25 proq` [n=user@38.100.211.40] has joined #scheme 20:48:57 davidad1 [n=me@dhcp-17-162.media.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:50:29 ok i did it correctly by hand this time and got 11 20:50:30 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:31 so for the big-O for time and space, it looks to me more or less linear for time 20:51:45 but like n^(3/2) or something for space 20:52:14 ada2358_ [n=ada2358@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 20:53:24 or is that way off? 20:53:27 hmm 20:53:32 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:56:02 *LobsterMan* cries and begins pulling his hair out 20:56:02 lol 20:56:09 this seems like it should be trivial 20:58:13 hey here's a thought 20:58:22 f(n) = n ; f(n) = f(n - 1) + 2f(n - 2) + 3f(n - 3) 20:58:26 was the original equation 20:58:28 yeah 20:58:44 t(n) = 1 ; t(n) = t(n - 1) + t(n - 2) + t(n - 3) 20:58:46 oops 20:58:49 t(n) = 1 ; t(n) = 1 + t(n - 1) + t(n - 2) + t(n - 3) 20:58:57 that t function measures the space and time complexity, doesn't it? 20:59:11 (since it counts the number of recursive calls) 20:59:18 don't i need to keep track of the coefficients? 20:59:54 if 21:00:11 g(n) = n ; g(n) = g(n - 1) + 14521g(n - 2) + 33342g(n - 3) 21:00:18 -!- davidad [n=me@wireless-25-60.media.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:00:22 g and f have the same algorithmic complexity 21:01:37 heh this stuff is all like "yeah makes sense" in lecture, but then when it's time to sit down and do it on my own 21:01:46 it's amazing how fast my brain will clear itself 21:04:41 i'm going to go grab some food, thanks for the hints and i'll be back later with more fun Q's :D 21:08:13 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 21:14:05 -!- ada2358_ [n=ada2358@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 21:17:41 jkukka [n=paul@62.117.74.154] has joined #scheme 21:22:46 Slom [n=a@pD9EB7404.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:25:18 -!- bluepojo [n=josiah@67.205.244.250] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:04 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:29:56 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:02 -!- Slom [n=a@pD9EB7404.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:34:43 -!- rmrfchik [n=paul@relay2.jet.msk.su] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:46 -!- ASau is now known as Azau 21:38:55 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:05 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:42:41 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@64.241.37.140] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 21:43:24 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 21:47:55 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:48:45 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:52:07 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:52:39 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-165-128-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:00:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:01:18 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-161-87.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 22:04:21 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:10:34 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.210.39] has quit [] 22:11:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-53-2.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:14:51 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:16:09 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:17:51 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:15 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 22:29:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:15 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 22:35:48 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:35:54 good evening! 22:36:27 poking the same old theme again: quoth the http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/bc-syntax-case.pdf : 22:36:46 The define-syntax form creates a keyword binding, associating a keyword (in 22:36:46 this case, or), with a transformation procedure, or transformer, obtained by 22:36:46 evaluating, at expansion time, the lambda expression on the right-hand side of 22:36:46 the define-syntax form. 22:36:55 22:37:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-138-129.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:37:31 so. if you are in a scheme system in which your expansion-time bindings exist in the same space as your runtime bindings (as implicit phasing seems to permit) 22:38:07 then in fact the procedure corresponding to a syntactic keyword exists in your scheme-language runtime 22:38:31 and can be treated as a first-class object, somehow 22:39:38 procedures are firts class of course 22:40:36 wingo-tp: Are you talking about getting access to the syntactic keyword procedure as a runtime value? 22:41:33 arcfide: that's part of it, yes -- i am slowly moving a scheme implementation from defmacros to syncase, but i really miss a first-class-ness about defmacros 22:42:00 defmacros == you are the hacker, you can hack anything 22:42:05 Implicit phasing a la Ikarus simply allows for bindings to be implicitly imported for all phases. It doesn't do anything for bindings defined inside the library body. 22:42:16 ah, r6rs is another question 22:42:47 i'd like to support it, but I'm not concerned about the semantics of keywords inside r6rs modules at this point 22:43:06 Then what are you doing talking about Implicit Phasing? 22:43:18 perhaps it is a conflation 22:43:58 No one suggests merging the expansion and run time phases of a single block of code such as the definitions inside a (LET () ...). 22:44:48 arcfide: do you use ikarus or chez? if so, how can you tell if a binding is a macro? 22:45:11 wingo-tp: I use Chez. 22:45:24 wingo-tp: I don't. 22:45:25 ah, you are hsu 22:45:29 LOL. 22:45:30 pleased to meet you :) 22:45:44 Hsu? Am I known? 22:46:00 *arcfide* deletes his facebook account and burns his identity. 22:46:02 the intertron knows everyone! :-) 22:46:20 You don't do something like (MACRO? X). 22:46:42 arcfide: if you wanted to, what would you do? 22:46:48 Because X is expanded first, and then later, if ever, the code is evaluated. 22:47:56 wingo-tp: It might help if you describe the problem you are trying to solve. 22:48:06 ok, my hand: 22:48:22 it's a kettle of fish. 22:48:25 in my hand. 22:48:28 slippery. 22:48:48 i'm working on rebasing guile's macros to syncase 22:48:56 . 22:49:00 wingo-tp: i think the forward-slash and `un' in are, strictly speaking, redundant 22:49:00 . . . . 22:49:15 at the same time, i'm working on rebasing guile itself to a compiled environment 22:49:40 so before, with first-class macros, my compiler could dispatch on the *value* of macros 22:49:51 so i could avoid hygiene problems 22:50:01 but now, i am adrift in a sea of text 22:50:13 and am trying to find something to grab a hold of 22:50:17 furthermore 22:50:29 guile's modules are not chez modules, nor are they r6rs modules 22:50:37 though they have similarities with both 22:50:49 Generally, a compiler parses the source, expands the resulting structure into some type of core language, which is then compiled. 22:51:18 -!- Azau is now known as ASau 22:51:26 so the given solutions (syntactic module support with modern psyntax, r6rs-libraries) are not appropriate 22:51:32 Sorry, by compiled, there, I mean it is written back out in some other representation suitable for evaluation by some system. 22:51:58 arcfide: well that is the normal thing -- but guile's normal model is different 22:52:04 (something i am trying to fix) 22:52:08 Well, then fix it. 22:52:19 an interleaved evaluation, lazy expansion process 22:52:26 ahem. 22:52:32 You may want to look at the various discussions that are out there about how expanders work. 22:52:33 i'm working on that :) 22:52:40 biab 22:52:49 Lazy expansion? 22:53:06 You're rewriting things, right? So why not just rewrite it so that things are expanded first? 22:53:40 Anyways, you can probably do it, but you have to have information about the bindings. 22:53:59 Say we use S-expressions as our representation form, with symbols for names: 22:54:28 When we encounter (let ([x 5]) x) we have to look at the CAR, and figure out what it is. 22:55:14 So, we would look at the symbol LET and lookup its value in the table of some kind that we are keeping (you do have one of those, right?) that tells us what it is. If it is a macro, then we have to expand that, and so forth. 22:55:31 yikes 22:55:33 *arcfide* waves his hands magically. 22:55:39 is there a formal semantics for it? 22:55:45 (lol) 22:55:48 vixey: There are many papers written on this. 22:55:54 for guile? 22:56:28 I don't know about GUILE, but the basic approach is the same regardless, and I would be willing to guess that lazy expansion isn't standard by any sense of the word. 22:56:41 I think it probably also messes with the semantics of programs, were I to guess. 22:59:19 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:11:47 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:22:42 Hm. I'm sort of weirded out by the fact that Dr. Scheme saves all code as WYSIWYG markup 23:23:42 I mean, I can export it to text and PLT scheme also has a normal text-mode interperter that can be used with bangpaths and all, but still. 23:23:49 you can use pictures as code or something, so it makes sense in that context 23:24:01 *arcfide* is weirded out. 23:24:02 aaco_ [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 23:24:33 or well, you can use literal pictures as data actually 23:25:03 p1dzkl: I guess that makes sense. It is after all a learning tool even if it's pretty sweet IDE. 23:26:13 still, the pictures could be serialised as Scheme objects 23:26:56 noamsml: That's unrelated to being a learning tool or not -- it must use the binary "media" format when you insert such non-textual objects into the code, but it shouldn't do this if all you have is text. 23:27:13 aspect: No, that's not possible when the source has an image. 23:27:18 eli: Really? Lemme try. 23:27:32 -!- proq [n=user@38.100.211.40] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:45 aspect: These are actual images that are part of the code, not just an expression that evaluates to the images. 23:28:02 eli: couldn't they be replaced by the latter? 23:28:19 eli: Oh, you're right 23:28:23 raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has joined #scheme 23:28:25 probably not very practical .. 23:28:39 *noamsml* feels slightly less weirded out 23:28:59 aspect: No, it's just an editing tool -- it does not know what expression might be needed to evaluate to an image. 23:29:25 -!- proq` is now known as proq 23:30:05 For example, you can use image values in the r5rs language too -- and that certainly has no way to create such an images back. 23:31:50 isn't having image literals in the source beyond r5rs already? 23:32:12 *wingo-tp* back. 23:32:33 It is, but quote is "obviously" doing the usual kind of extra-r5rs magic. 23:32:47 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:32:54 (Which could be fixed if anyone wanted even more r5rs-ness...) 23:33:15 arcfide: i think guile will eagerly expand, within a few months. 23:33:45 lazy expansion is a good strategy for interpretation, but obviously not for compilation. 23:34:20 "eagerly expand"? 23:35:43 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:36:21 the opposite of lazily expand 23:36:26 wingo-tp: why don't you port riaexpander to guile, that would give you a sane base to build on. 23:36:38 wingo-tp: if by "lazy expansion" you mean that macros are not completely expanded before evaluation happens, then that's not a standard meaning. 23:36:52 is guiles execution documented? 23:36:57 mejja: does riaexpander do syncase? 23:37:04 or it's like just something some guy hacked 23:37:10 wingo-tp: of course not! 23:37:31 mejja: heh, ok then ;) 23:37:41 eli: it might be a nonstandard meaning, yes. 23:37:55 wingo-tp: What about the original psyntax from Kent rather than the one that has R6RS stuff in it? 23:38:15 arcfide: that's the one i have, from before he added modules 23:38:16 which was a long time ago 23:38:32 10 years or so 23:38:42 wingo-tp: You might also want to read the papers. 23:38:53 arcfide: i've read some, but it is an ongoing process. 23:39:54 There is a process that some people call eager expansion which results in something like exponential expansion time, because it traverses the whole tree for every name "freshening." 23:40:06 This is not something that anyone does in practice. 23:40:23 you mean perhaps like the one that the original extend-syntax implementations used 23:40:44 But usually expansion happens before evaluation, to my knowledge. 23:40:52 yes 23:41:01 i would like to bring guile to that world 23:41:08 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:10 it is proving interesting :) 23:41:32 wingo which world 23:41:42 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:50 Well, does GUILE actually start evaluating a form before it has expanded that entire form? I can understand maybe evaluating forms that you have just expanded to go on to other ones, but.... 23:41:55 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 23:42:02 arcfide: it does, yes 23:42:23 i understand from per's posts to r6rs-discuss recently (iirc) that kawa does similar things 23:42:27 wingo-tp, is any of this guile execution model documented? 23:42:33 *arcfide* backs away, slowly. 23:42:43 lazy expansion is a win for an interpreter. 23:42:57 arcfide: a good strategy, perhaps ;) thanks for the conversation though. 23:43:02 wingo-tp: The fastest interpreter that I know doesn't do it that way. 23:43:24 arcfide: i can imagine much faster ways of doing it than guile does. 23:43:40 it's pretty much scm's model, which is from older days. 23:44:10 wingo-tp: It's not a win for the interpreter, in a similar way that `load' isn't. 23:44:19 vixey: so, i don't know what you're really getting at -- is there a point in guile's reference manual that is unclear for you? 23:44:44 wingo-tp: He was hoping that someone would have formally documented the actual process for evaluation that GUILE uses. 23:44:49 wingo-tp, just sounds nonstandard and I wondred if it was documented other than in the source code 23:46:10 guile is spelled guile. It is an acronym like lisp. 23:46:13 -!- bweaver [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:46:29 no, it's not formally documented. 23:46:47 in the sense that there is no formal semantics. 23:47:09 ok that sucks 23:47:32 ok that's ad hominem? 23:47:43 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:47:56 wingo-tp: no it isn't 23:48:10 yes that's a negative aspect, but i'm tired of people being like "guile sucks blah blah blah" 23:48:16 wingo-tp: I can't believe you seriously think I'm attacking you by saying it sucks that guile doesn't have it's execution model documented 23:48:27 you can't believe that? 23:48:28 wingo-tp: didn't say guile sucks 23:48:37 ok 23:48:55 *wingo-tp* chills :) 23:49:38 guile certainly sucks in many ways of course! :) 23:50:28 to be complete, i was reacting to an atmosphere of derision, which I don't think is helpful for anyone, or for scheme. 23:50:32 just in general programming language definition seems a really sorry state 23:50:37 not that vixey displayed that 23:50:49 yes you are probably right vixey. 23:50:56 can't think of any mainstream languages other than ALGOL, Scheme and SML that have anything close to sufficient 23:51:49 vixey: ada? 23:51:49 Simula... 23:52:09 ecmascript? 23:52:28 ecmascript??? 23:52:44 ecmascript had its semantics defined by an sml implementation 23:52:46 of all the ad-hoc specifications i've read... 23:52:59 es 3.1? 23:53:14 not sure -- i know they're using it for 4 23:53:23 yes i have seen that implementation 23:53:32 i have not seen an es4 spec tho 23:55:53 it's nowhere near done 23:55:55 and not a standard 23:56:12 and probably won't have the version 4 ;) 23:56:34 ES3.1 uses a pseudo-assembly language that is incredibly painful to work through 23:56:53 erm 23:56:55 s/3.1/3/ 23:57:16 -!- raikov [n=igr@82.45.130.213] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:58:24 -!- vixey [n=yoo@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Quitting!"] 23:58:36 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-204-183.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:32 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #scheme 23:59:32 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFDAE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:59:48 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFDAE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]