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05:44:34 hello there... i'm using pltscheme, and i'm trying to learn how to make udp socket connections with it... but i can't find out how to receive a datagram in a socket that i just created and connected... can anyone help me? 05:45:56 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:45:59 MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:48:43 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-149-151.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:50:43 Presumably with the UDP-RECEIVE! procedure or its relatives. 05:54:23 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-149-151.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:55:47 -!- jld [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:38 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:00:32 -!- MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:58 Riastradh: i'm having difficulties with udp-bind!... i want to bind it to my servers port... but it says that i cannot bind the port because it is already in use, so i don't find a way to use one socket to send and receive datagrams with this library 06:05:32 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:09:18 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:10:29 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:13:00 MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:13:50 You can have only one socket file descriptor bound to any given socket address on one machine. 06:15:32 Riastradh: hey, i finally got the time to fix WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES today 06:16:44 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:16:52 -!- MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:17:06 ? 06:17:43 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:20:32 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:21:22 I dimly recall something about a problem with it, but not the details. 06:23:49 Riastradh: you wrote me a CPS macro, but it was slow and possibly buggy 06:23:57 Riastradh: so i finally found the time and rewrote it using ER macros 06:24:38 I see. In that case, it is probably still (inherently) buggy, but less slow. 06:24:48 why is that? 06:25:08 (with-instance-variables foo (x) (let ((x 5)) x)) 06:25:20 hmm 06:25:24 oh 06:25:32 (with-instance-variables foo (x) '(set! x 3)) 06:25:41 Riastradh: you saw my patch already? 06:25:47 No. 06:25:51 ah 06:26:10 i guess i could deal with the case with QUOTE 06:26:21 Not in general. 06:26:22 but i don't know how macros compose together 06:26:26 (with-instance-variables foo (x) `(set! x 3)) 06:26:29 ah 06:26:40 Riastradh: so is there a correct way to solve this? 06:26:53 Not without name macros. 06:27:06 the original MIT scheme implementation traversed the scode 06:27:19 That's an even worse kludge. 06:27:28 what are name macros? 06:27:39 Expansions for references to names, not just applications of names. 06:27:50 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 06:28:36 Riastradh: are there implementations of 'name macros'? 06:28:56 PLT Scheme, Chez Scheme, and possibly the R6RS support them. 06:29:12 Riastradh: is that described in the composable macros paper? 06:29:16 No. 06:29:23 There's nothing conceptually hard about this. 06:29:29 It doesn't require a paper to describe. 06:30:13 well, i still don't quite understand - is it something that's solved as part of syntax-case? 06:30:16 The only omission from my sentence above is that name macros (as they are rendered in PLT and Chez (and possibly the R6RS)) can also rewrite SET!s. 06:30:37 (define-syntax foo (identifier-syntax (begin (display "Foo!") +))) 06:30:46 (foo 5 3) ;Value: 8, output: Foo! 06:31:02 SYNTAX-CASE is a red herring. 06:32:27 (The form (FOO 5 3) is equivalent to the form ((BEGIN (DISPLAY "Foo!") +) 5 3), after the above definition of FOO.) 06:32:43 oh, they have those in Common Lisp, right? 06:32:49 they call them something else 06:32:59 Yes. In Common Lisp they are called `symbol macros'. 06:33:01 reader macros? 06:33:03 symbol macros 06:33:04 okay 06:33:06 No, reader macros are different. 06:33:10 Reader macros modify the lexical syntax. 06:33:16 right 06:33:23 patchwork [n=user@dsl093-174-240.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 06:33:58 Riastradh: so to get "name macros", one needs to implement identifier-syntax as defined in the R6RS? 06:34:09 that's one strategy 06:34:12 Yes. This requires the macro engine support it. 06:34:35 Generally, name macros are a bad idea. 06:35:07 why is that? it seems useful 06:35:22 Normally, a reference to a name has no side effects. 06:35:28 Name macros throw this valuable property out the window. 06:35:52 hold on, i'm not sure if i completely understand how identifier-syntax works 06:35:59 i'm looking at the example in the R6RS 06:36:00 With macros you have most of this property out the window anyway. 06:36:06 it defines p and the p.car 06:36:20 Only with broken macros, eli. 06:36:21 so if i have a q, do i get q.car automatically? 06:36:26 IOW, you to macro-expand code to do anything related to its meaning. 06:36:53 Not only broken macros -- with macros that themselves expand to binding forms. 06:37:18 No. Even binding forms cannot change the meaning of a reference to a name outside of an operator position. 06:37:53 ...unless you mean that the macro is acting as a binding form itself, and the names you're talking about are to be bound by the macro. 06:38:05 What I mean is that if you want to know when "a reference to a name has no side effects", then you need to know what is "a reference to a name", and that requires expansion no matter what. 06:39:11 Anyway, neither of us will ever persuade the other, so arguing the point is probably not worth the time. 06:39:28 What matters to duncanm right now is that Scheme48 does not have name macros. 06:40:28 (And BTW, they're much more commonly known as "identifier macros"). 06:40:43 (The name `identifier' is verbose and silly.) 06:42:13 I could not disagree more on *that*. "name" is highly ambiguous; "identifier" is very concrete (what CLers refer to as "symbols", and what you get in Scheme by adding lexical information to symbols). 06:42:17 (Also, `identifier' sometimes means lexical syntax and sometimes means an object that stands for a symbol and lexical context; of course, the word `lexical' also means something somewhat different in the two phrases where it just occurred.) 06:44:32 If that difference bothers you, then "name" is not going in a direction that resolves the ambiguity, but in the other direction. As for the abiguity itself, I think that it makes perfect sense to use "symbol" for the former and "identifier" for the latter -- and that is exactly what is reflected by bindings in PLT (and probably in Chez and r6rs). 06:44:35 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:44:47 MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:45:43 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:47:03 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:50:30 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:52:02 eli: idenifier macros aside, if i write a macro that binds some identifier, but the body of the macro has a LET, how does one write the macro such that the expansion wouldn't interfere within the scope of the LET? 06:52:16 It won't. 06:52:54 only because the macro also uses a LET for doing the binding, right? 06:53:13 what if it crawls the body and rewrites expressions? 06:53:25 [I didn't follow the question completely, but "it won't" sounds like the right answer.] 06:53:46 What is "it" that crawls? 06:53:58 it = the macro 06:54:29 Then you lose. 06:54:37 ah 06:54:49 That's why WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES is inherently borken. 06:55:19 duncanm: The macro is just a function that is called with a syntax to produce some other syntax; I don't see any difference if you achieve this by crawling over some intermediate syntax that you constuct, but I think that this is not what you eman. 06:55:29 s/The/A/ 06:56:22 Riastradh: ah... all this is reminding me of a conversation i had with Olin about htis 06:56:27 eli, WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES is a macro that pretends to bind identifier macros by descending its input and performing substitutions itself. In other words: it loses. 06:57:17 How long ago was it that I wrote WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES for you and told you that it was a provisional measure just to speed up making the code run with minimal changes? 06:57:40 Riastradh: except for set!, if the expansion simply puts a LET around the body, then it'll still work properly, wouldn't it 06:57:42 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:57:45 Riastradh: we met shortly after x'mas 06:57:52 or befor? 06:57:54 before 06:58:17 No, I'm talking about when I wrote WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES the first time, not the last time we talked about it. 06:58:24 oh, that was a while back 06:58:51 -!- haole [n=ivan@200-232-198-68.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:59:00 you might have said all this before already, but i don't have any recollection ;-P 06:59:33 I'm not wondering why the macro is still inherently broken (it can't be `fixed' without adding name macros to Scheme48); I'm wonder why any code still uses it. 07:00:05 yeah, now that i understand the issue, and i now know how much code uses this macro, i'm considering replacing it with something less hacky 07:01:07 Riastradh: basically the form can stay as long as i change set! to something like set-ivar! 07:02:09 jld [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has joined #scheme 07:03:48 chanson will prolly be chuckling if he sees this conversation - i'm prolly mulling over a macro that he came up with at 3am some 10+ years ago 07:05:33 Riastradh: do you know SOS, is it anything like this? 07:05:45 CVS log entry: `Mostly rewrite this using new syntax. But WITH-INSTANCE-VARIABLES not rewritten -- it is a terrible kludge and pretty hopeless.' 07:05:54 haha 07:06:06 No, SOS is nothing like this. SOS is a CLOSalike, not a Smalltalkalike. 07:06:14 Riastradh: is there a timestamp on that entry? 07:06:19 2002-01-18 07:06:28 oh, so not so long ago 07:06:41 and SOS is a lot more sound than this? 07:06:46 Yes. 07:06:50 SOS is even documented. 07:07:00 yeah, i've seen the documentation 07:09:27 It, too, uses a code-walking hack, but only as an optimization that does not affect the semantics. 07:09:55 ah... it's something else to do after edwin ;-P 07:10:07 (Specifically, it uses a code-walker to check whether CALL-NEXT-METHOD is referenced. In fact, you could do a coarser-grained version of this optimization with macros, without losing too badly.) 07:10:55 after talking to eli about CLOS a few times, i'm starting to see why schemers don't seem to be too thrilled with CLOS-like systems 07:11:08 but then again, i have no idea why the Common Lisp people seem to accept it to readily 07:11:14 s/to/so/ 07:11:50 Because it is gigantic and all-encompassing? 07:12:18 zbigniew: because what is gigantic? CLOS or CL? 07:12:42 I dunno plt seems to have a pretty rigorous object system. Every language is implemented with a class% even. 07:12:46 er, object% I mean. 07:12:54 duncanm: the basic idea is very elegant and powerful, and it takes a while to realize the costs, and exactly how much of that power you actually need. 07:13:06 eli: yeah, i remember, we've talked about this 07:13:31 (send obj message) <-- how plt does it. costs 1 hash table lookup... 07:13:34 synx: i was gonna ask about PLT, but i lost track of how many object systems they have 07:13:38 Riastradh: that (`call-next-method') sounds like something that would be elegantly solved with syntax parameters (which I didn't do in Swindle for obvious reasons). 07:13:51 synx: there's another one that doesn't have an explicit SEND syntax, i thought 07:13:59 Or (send-generic obj-message) supposedly costs nothin' 07:14:00 duncanm: Not *that* many. 07:14:13 duncanm: sure, struct. 07:14:17 eli: how many are there? 07:14:27 eli, how so? 07:14:28 but struct isn't a CLOS, just a convenient way to compartmentalize data. 07:14:32 define-record... 07:14:46 duncanm: Swindle is a side-project, there is one system that is used for GUI (and most other "official OO code"). 07:14:59 duncanm: So that's only two. 07:15:12 eli, the optimization relies on an upward, not downward, flow of information through the syntax tree. 07:15:32 eli: the GUI one is the one with interfaces and all the bells and whistles? is that the system that prof-j compiles into? 07:15:53 or is prof-j its own OO system? 07:16:03 Riastradh: Because you want `call-next-method' to usually be a syntax error, and you want to have it bound (in any way) to something in the context of a `defmethod'. 07:16:36 The object system does not depend on the GUI. The GUI depends on the object system. 07:16:37 duncanm: Yes, though it's questionable whether that is more bells than Swindle. 07:16:43 That's different, eli. 07:16:48 (oh when i say interfaces, i meant java interfaces) 07:16:51 ahh 07:16:59 duncanm: As for profj, I don't know what it compiles classes to. 07:17:03 so i definitely overestimated 07:17:06 hmmm 07:17:12 Riastradh: How? 07:17:13 so there might be three 07:17:16 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:17:49 eli: i tutored 213 a few times, so i've seen some of the raw macro-expansions when it broke down - but i don't remember any of the traces 07:18:00 If CALL-NEXT-METHOD is not referenced in a method body, then the method need not be chained, and computing the effective method procedure is easier. 07:18:01 duncanm: It *might* compile Java classes to PLT classes, but I doubt that this is trivially preserving the java semantics. 07:18:28 duncanm: But even if it is implementing java classes on its own, it's not usable (or used) outside of profj. 07:18:34 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 07:18:35 right 07:18:57 eli: and the normal PLT OO system is closer to Smalltalk than CLOS, right? 07:19:04 So it's not really "another OO system in PLT", more than an occasional use of a macro to define closures is an "OO system"... 07:19:09 heh 07:19:52 duncanm: Probably, I'm not too familiar with smalltalk, but I think it's (PLT's) is close to it. It's definitely not close to CLOS. 07:20:15 Otherwise, SOS just binds CALL-NEXT-METHOD as an ordinary variable in method bodies. If you use it outside of a method body, it's not bound by default. 07:20:55 Riastradh: Cute, but IIRC, won't work with a CLOS like system. 07:21:01 ? 07:21:14 ahh, one departure from Smalltalk in the PLT OO system has got to be mix-ins 07:21:15 What's a `CLOS-like system', if SOS is not one? 07:21:22 matthias talks about it all the time... 07:21:38 I think that there were some method combinations that chain method calls without them using `call-next-method'. 07:22:28 recent versions of Squeak comes with a Traits system, which i think is similar to mix-ins, but either way, it's not widely used 07:22:41 duncanm: Yes, mixins (which are functions in the PLT case, not clases like in CLOS) are pretty central to the class system. Without them it would be much less useful. 07:23:34 eli: mixins are functions that take classes and returns new classes, right? 07:23:42 Such method combinations, presumably, would be implemented by subclassing . 07:24:11 (SOS does not include support for fancy method combinations.) 07:24:45 i always wanted to read The Art of the MOP, but i never got very far, the content is just very dry 07:24:58 Riastradh: I can't find any on a brief look, so perhaps it's wrong. 07:25:11 Sorry, what's `it'? 07:25:42 Riastradh: did you learn about CLOS from reading the MOP book? or did you learn it from reading the SOS source? 07:25:48 duncanm, it's documentation for a very large and complex system, most of which, to be honest, is not interesting for most programs. 07:25:53 Riastradh: method combinations that chain calls without an explicit `call-next-method' in the method. 07:26:19 (Cue jwz about regular expressions, piped to sed -e 's/regular expressions/the MOP/1'.) 07:26:42 Riastradh: (And BTW, I don't know much about SOS, I only have bad impression from YASOS, which is hopefully completely unrelated.) 07:26:47 Yes, completely. 07:26:58 oh, the one where he says now you have one more problem? 07:27:05 Yep, duncanm. 07:27:36 Riastradh: so did you read the MOP book? 07:27:39 eli, SOS is an implementation of the basic ideas of CLOS on top of a more primitive but more general generic procedure mechanism which handles the hairy parts of caching. 07:28:24 I'm not sure that it's a fair comparison -- regexps are still useful because they're more limited. A CLOS MOP is much more powerful, and can cause much more damage too. 07:28:45 duncanm: Yes, BTW -- mixins are functions from classes to classes. 07:28:47 duncanm, I glanced at it, but not in much depth; it's documentation for a large, complex, and mostly uninteresting system, and, as you said, it's pretty dry. I don't remember how I learned about CLOS; it was probably by rewriting Tiny-CLOS, just like everybody else. 07:29:35 heh 07:30:14 i wonder if i'll ever find the time to go thru the same exercise 07:30:47 It's a thousand lines of Scheme code, about a third of which is irrelevant, another third of which is badly designed and begs to be rewritten, and the final third just requires you to sit and stare. 07:31:24 maybe i'll enjoy the staring part 07:31:27 Hmm, it's even smaller than I remembered. 07:31:34 Closer to five hundred lines of code. 07:31:36 Now, hold on there. You've just described every program I've ever written. 07:32:07 (It has been years since I looked at it.) 07:33:03 And those last few lines sound suspiciously like my wife. 07:34:03 la la la 07:34:35 Riastradh: oh, i rode by Rangoli last week - they're really gone! ;-( 07:34:55 What a pity... 07:35:07 Unfortunately, I didn't find Tanjore to be quite as good. 07:35:10 Riastradh: the same people run another restaurant, i think 07:35:13 right, Tanjore 07:35:40 Riastradh: are you gonna be in boston anytime soon? we could go give it a try 07:35:42 It's in Harvard Square, in the same building as the parking garage (not to be confused with the garage). 07:35:51 hmm 07:36:45 Indian restaurants? 07:36:58 Adamant: yes 07:37:25 I love me some Indian food 07:38:03 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:40:56 incubot: this facility provides a voluminous dump when asked 07:40:58 surely conjure will provide a similiar facility 07:41:40 aha 07:41:43 haha 07:49:59 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:07:26 borism [n=boris@195-50-207-233-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 08:13:51 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:15 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 08:23:30 bgdnoy [n=bgdnoy@vie-nas-ge-0-2.onenet.at] has joined #scheme 08:27:26 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:35 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 08:31:07 -!- vaeshir [n=user@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:34:03 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.144] has joined #scheme 08:39:04 -!- bgdnoy [n=bgdnoy@vie-nas-ge-0-2.onenet.at] has quit [] 08:39:45 bgdnoy [n=user@vie-nas-ge-0-2.onenet.at] has joined #scheme 08:51:59 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:56:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:57:10 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:58:52 wingo-tp [n=wingo@128.Red-79-151-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:00:21 i'm meditating on how to implement 'generalized assignment' as in cl's setf 09:00:55 how do i know how to deal with user defined functions? 09:01:11 (as part of the target expression) 09:01:55 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 09:04:07 in cl you can define your own setter functions 09:04:26 (defun car ...) (defun (setf car) ...) 09:05:46 hmm... i thought of something like that: 09:05:57 (define (f x) (cadr x)) 09:06:24 there is an srfi about this iirc. 09:06:36 09:06:54 i will search for it... 09:07:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:08:02 *bgdnoy* should stfw -- it's #17 09:09:58 SRFI 17 uses setters like cl -- no way around this, it seems... 09:10:35 (except using some weird meta-eval which keeps the code for everything reachable) 09:11:02 thanks 09:11:07 dylan has generalized setters too, as far as i know it just appends -setter to the getter symbol 09:24:24 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:25:12 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:49 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 09:31:16 For a vector drawing library in GL, do you think rasterizing them to textures, or converting them to lines/triangles would be more appropriate. 09:37:06 bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has joined #scheme 09:39:49 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:06 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:40:20 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:42:01 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:54 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 09:51:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:51:18 iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179069016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:04:11 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #scheme 10:10:09 iion_tichy1 [n=Bjoern@e179066093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:10:33 marcob_ [i=525bd88d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6a08724d587a5b6e] has joined #scheme 10:15:01 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:18 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 10:16:24 -!- marcob_ [i=525bd88d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6a08724d587a5b6e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:19:19 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:20:05 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:23:10 geckosenator [n=sean@71.237.94.78] has joined #scheme 10:25:11 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:25:41 -!- iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179069016.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:25:57 berat [n=berat@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 10:25:59 hey 10:26:49 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:27:00 heya 10:27:56 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:30:07 http://paste.org/5603 can someone look my url 10:30:33 alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has joined #scheme 10:31:44 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.144] has quit [] 10:51:16 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 10:51:55 -!- troter_ [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:00:17 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:00:37 hark [n=strider@2001:5c0:1101:7000:223:4dff:fe7d:331a] has joined #scheme 11:16:50 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:22:04 ski_, sorry I can't remember the precise paper that really impressed me :) all their stuff is good, and reading around their research project gives a good feel for the kinds of things PE could be applied to. IIRC the metaobjects one is interesting in terms of its approach to structuring the reflective tower; but other goodies are "Partial Evaluator as a Compiler for Reflective Languages", and "Partial Evaluation of Call-by-value \lambda-calculus with Si 11:22:04 de-effects" 11:22:17 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEE28.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:22:58 lisppaste: url 11:22:58 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 11:23:14 i fix my mistake :d 11:23:18 berat: lisp paste does paren matching and the like, makes it preferable 11:23:22 berat: awesome. 11:23:52 Arelius, by the way i am using plia scheme 11:24:12 plia scheme? 11:24:48 pika scheme perhaps? 11:24:53 also, did you get you're problem solved? 11:32:38 plai 11:32:44 sorry 11:32:47 it is plai 11:33:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:35:16 Arelius, 11:35:21 do you know plai scheme 11:35:29 can i ask a question if you know 11:36:37 Never heard of it. 11:40:06 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:41:04 -!- iion_tichy1 [n=Bjoern@e179066093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:00 http://paste.org/5604 can someone look at it 11:45:08 what is my mistake how can i fix it 11:48:40 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #scheme 11:58:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:59:06 mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has joined #scheme 11:59:12 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:59:23 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 12:01:47 (PLAI is a book) 12:02:05 berat : is `body2' supposed to be a list ? 12:02:45 you are calling it as if it were a procedure in `(body2 (cdr body1))' 12:03:20 you probably want to recursively call `append-my-own-ver' with two arguments, not one, is that right ? 12:03:52 (if so, you have too many brackets. each bracket pair counts) 12:04:05 tonyg : ok, ty 12:05:12 PLAI = Programming Lisp in AI? ;-) 12:06:34 i believe berat was referring to "Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation" 12:07:05 (by Shriram Krishnamurthi) 12:07:34 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 12:08:45 ah yes 12:08:52 the acronym makes sense that way 12:12:39 I'm torn between learning cl, plt scheme, elisp and guile. For practical applicability, I think elisp scores highest (maybe followed by guile, it being embedded in lilypond); I hear that elisp is a little old and crufty though. What do y'all think? What are the pros and cons of each? 12:13:11 fasta [n=a@217.109.160.5] has joined #scheme 12:19:59 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 12:21:17 -!- bpalmer [n=user@unaffiliated/bpalmer] has left #scheme 12:23:09 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 12:26:17 -!- berat [n=berat@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:56 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:28:09 kryptiskt [n=no@80.251.192.2] has joined #scheme 12:32:59 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme 12:34:18 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:37:09 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:37:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:44:15 -!- kryptiskt [n=no@80.251.192.2] has quit [] 12:47:23 jonaskoelker: Try to guess, what #scheme folks will choose from the following list: `cl, elisp, scheme' :P 12:48:13 yeah, I figured 12:48:24 but I thought some of you might be unbiased :D 12:48:50 then again, I can just go ask the same question in #emacs and #lisp and average out the answers 12:49:29 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:50:29 And what do you call `practical applicability'? 12:50:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:51:28 it won't just make me a better programmer, I'll also be writing some code in $LISP not just for the purpose of learning it 12:52:11 $lisp? 12:52:24 whichever lisp I choose to learn 12:52:32 Ah 12:53:30 Anyway, `practical applicability' is a very fuzzy thing 12:54:09 true 12:55:43 jonaskoelker: elisp isn't a very good programming language... 12:55:52 though it is embedded in a great editor. 12:56:04 Some people call scheme and similar stuff impractical just because large business (at least in this country) likes large solutions from big companies. :P 12:56:06 Arelius: if only it had a decent operating syst... wait, what? ;-) 12:56:14 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:56:37 Arelius: okay, how's elisp a bad language? 12:56:54 The biggest one is it is dynamically scoped. 12:57:00 which ends up being a pain 12:57:05 jonaskoelker: it lacks lexcial binding 12:57:43 Also, can't really run it outside of emacs. 12:58:01 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 12:58:21 can't you run emacs as #!/usr/bin/emacs --interpret or something like that? 12:58:39 probally 12:58:44 but that's still running it in emacs 12:58:57 elisp is probally also the slowest 12:59:19 dlt__ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 12:59:55 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.59.113] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:55 And I think it's library for things not emacs related are crappy 13:00:03 such as databases and the like. 13:00:47 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:02:04 other then elisp, CL pretty much has the best libraries 13:02:13 but scheme is simplier and probally more -pure- 13:02:17 less cruft. 13:03:07 okay 13:03:56 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:05:06 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has joined #scheme 13:06:08 Arelius: Yeah, seems, that there are lots of cl libraries. But many of them haven't been updated for ages 13:06:39 Yeah 13:07:00 I'd really love to get something like AllegroCache in scheme though 13:07:36 dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 13:08:20 Arelius: me too. 13:08:48 But other then that 13:08:53 *Arelius* shrugs 13:10:48 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@119.96.9.156] has joined #scheme 13:20:01 Arelius: do you have any experience with any of the lisp variants you mentioned above? 13:20:17 bgdnoy: I use elisp often 13:20:31 I've used very little CL. 13:20:59 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-206-96-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 13:22:02 i never used elisp except for my .emacs, and i gave up learning cl when i was reading SICP 13:22:25 the 'basics' may be quite the same for every lisp dialect 13:23:17 i think there is little stuff in RnRS scheme that is not useful to know for any lisp dialect 13:23:48 sure 13:24:00 what do you expect from your lisp? what do you want to do with it? 13:24:42 me? 13:25:01 -!- MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:18 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:24 ah, sounded so. no, that was for the round / esp. for jonaskoelker 13:25:36 bgdnoy: That was jonaskoelker's question 13:26:04 i figured out that :-) 13:26:06 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-206-252-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 13:26:22 (lately) 13:26:45 what I expect and want from my lisp? Not sure. Explore. Learn a new language. 13:26:58 I've been listening to Paul Grahams propaganda ;-) 13:27:27 s/ms/m's/ 13:27:48 I've been to. I am learning how Arc works - you could say I am stealing his ideas. 13:28:03 s/to/too/ 13:28:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-207-233-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:05 One thing people say about Scheme is that it is well suited for educational use. 13:29:14 If you want a language to learn and explore, I'd recomend scheme 13:29:21 if you want a language to extend you're editor 13:29:24 elisp 13:29:42 and if you want one to get real work done.... well scheme or CL depending on the type of work. 13:30:28 But the language you choose to learn will also be the language you will prefer for your projects. 13:31:00 generally, yes 13:32:00 Maybe the question is not *which* Lisp to study but *to* study Lisp. 13:32:14 I mean at the beginning. 13:32:26 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@119.96.9.156] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:32:47 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@119.96.9.156] has joined #scheme 13:33:09 agreed 13:33:22 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-206-96-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:01 +1. Anyway, I started studying cl, but gave up, since I didn't like it. 13:34:12 jonaskoelker: Do you have any programming experience? 13:34:21 yeah 13:34:30 Mr-Cat: same for me. 13:34:33 C, C++, python, java, haskell, ... 13:34:50 half-assed perl, halfer-assed ml 13:35:05 Then you should feel right at home, untill you discover macros that is. 13:35:07 Haskell is nice 13:35:13 haskell is very nice :) 13:35:29 Well, Haskell and Python are a good starting point for Lisp. 13:35:39 But i don't know much about Haskell. 13:35:40 well, I've dipped my toes in a bit of lisp 13:35:51 I've written a macro, and it kinda' works 13:35:51 I can't stand Haskell's syntax 13:35:55 I much perfer ML 13:36:00 now it's time for me to dive in 13:37:19 Yeah, haskell indentation rules and operator priorities are annoying. 13:37:20 agreed 13:37:49 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 13:38:30 jonaskoelker: I would say that, in some sense, Python is to Perl what Scheme is to CL. 13:40:35 > Schemer: "Buddha is small, clean, and serious." Lispnik: "Buddha is big, has hairy armpits, and laughs." 13:40:50 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 13:45:47 Nice comparison 13:48:37 (Nikodemus Siivola) 13:48:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:43 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 13:57:39 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@128.Red-79-151-217.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:57 el_diego [n=el_diego@80.80.170.164] has joined #scheme 14:00:07 kryptiskt [n=no@80.251.192.3] has joined #scheme 14:00:18 -!- kryptiskt [n=no@80.251.192.3] has left #scheme 14:01:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 14:04:37 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:06 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 14:10:00 wingo-tp [n=wingo@249.Red-81-38-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:12:48 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:29 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:23:08 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:23:09 -!- Deformative [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:24:34 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 14:29:21 dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 14:29:34 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:36:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 14:59:20 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-323686.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:44 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.113] has joined #scheme 15:05:03 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.113] has left #scheme 15:11:21 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:12:26 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:24:32 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 15:24:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:41:02 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:03 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:17 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-178.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 15:41:19 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:43:39 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:44:54 berat [n=berat@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 15:48:49 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:49:14 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:49:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:49 hey 15:49:52 someone there 15:50:02 http://paste.org/5609 can you look at it 15:54:04 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:55:07 berat: Are you implementing lambda-calculus interpreter or something? 15:55:55 yeah 15:56:02 i implement lambda calculus 15:56:29 berat: Why do yu think that y is free in (func-def 'x (func-def 'y (func-app (id 'y) (id 'z)))) 15:56:32 ? 15:56:34 i try to write a function which finds free and bound variable in valid-lambda-sentence that is in abstract form 15:56:44 no y is bound 15:56:52 Oh sorry 15:57:00 misread the sentense 15:57:03 and it doesnt give bound variable 15:57:09 a-san [n=chatzill@zaqd37ca8e2.zaq.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:57:14 It's bound, but is not detected as bound? 15:57:16 i think i have a problem in func-app 15:57:22 yes 15:57:31 my code have some problem 15:57:33 i cannot find 15:57:39 i did remove function 15:57:55 which produce exist element in the klist with s 15:58:08 such as 5 '(1 2 3 4 5) it produces 5 15:58:20 -!- a-san [n=chatzill@zaqd37ca8e2.zaq.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58:24 (find-bounds (func-def 'x (id 'x))) 15:58:24 (list 'x) 15:58:30 for example this one works 15:59:26 > (find-bounds (func-def 'x (func-def 'y (func-app (id 'y) (id 'x))))) 15:59:26 empty but this one not work 15:59:34 i cannot find where the mistake is 16:00:05 Mr-Cat, are you there 16:00:22 Yes 16:00:40 you understand what my problem is 16:00:49 partially :) 16:01:07 how can i fix that 16:01:14 Let's examine find-bounds body 16:01:27 okey 16:01:31 i am waiting 16:01:34 func-def case 16:01:38 i just try to learn code 16:01:58 but in find-frees it works perfect 16:02:13 i put cases to my url 16:02:14 Why don't you add functioan parameter's name (`name' as far as I can see) to the list of bound variables? 16:02:43 how 16:03:13 I dunno, that's your code :P. 16:03:23 i dont understand exactly what you said 16:03:42 find-frees perfectly works 16:03:55 func-deff works with remove-from-body 16:03:57 I did't check find frees 16:04:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 16:04:20 whereas find-bounds works with remove which is opposite of removes-from-body 16:04:23 that cannot work 16:04:34 can you examine my whole code pls :D 16:04:36 I've just noticed, that in find-bounds all lambdas' parameter names are thrown away 16:05:04 find-bound for example (lambda x x) 16:05:10 returns x 16:05:11 or 16:05:16 berat: Not now, sorry. I'm at work actually :P. 16:05:26 find-bound (lambda x y) ? 16:05:30 (lambda x(lambda y (lambda z ((z y) x))) 16:05:36 it must return x y z 16:05:45 in you sentence returns empty 16:05:54 sorry 16:06:06 can you just give a little clue pls 16:06:24 So, that's because lambda paremeters are thrown away in find-bounds 16:06:42 s/paremeters/parameters 16:07:14 thrown away 16:07:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 16:08:11 Yes, and that's wrong. Lambda parameters are the source of bindings after all. 16:08:21 okey wait a second 16:09:13 Is there a working _complete_ redex model of R5RS or higher somewhere? 16:10:54 berat: What I'd recommend you - is to download a copy of `Introduction to Functional Programming' by John Harisson (it's free and can be googled). On pager 13-14 he's got a clear set of recursve rules for free and bound variables. You should check your code against those. 16:11:58 s/pager/pages/ 16:12:33 berat: Check and correct your code, I mean. 16:12:59 yes lambda thron away 16:13:22 ok i check it 16:13:22 -!- bgdnoy [n=user@vie-nas-ge-0-2.onenet.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:33 but how can i avoid to thrown away lambda 16:14:07 jah [n=jah@116.160.66-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:17 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:13 berat: the func-def case in find-bounds is just completely broken. You should just correct it. 16:19:30 Btw. Why don't parse any constants (numbers, strings)? 16:27:02 -!- mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:30:22 Would it be correct to say that as assembly <-> program counter, we have Scheme <-> list of holes? 16:31:09 fasta, that doesn't make sense to me but I guess you are talking wrt. CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION ? 16:31:14 list of what? 16:32:33 `List of holes' sounds to be something very bad and offensive :) 16:33:25 lore17 [n=lore@c-98-232-225-102.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:33:32 `Different languages have different useful abstractions, but scheme has only a list of holes'. :) 16:33:43 When an instruction is executed in assembly, the program counter points to one instruction after the instruction. In Scheme when you evaluate (begin (set! a (+ 1 a)) (set! b (+ 1 b)), after the evaluation of the instruction (set! a (+ 1 a)) the evaluator is at the (set! b (+ 1 b)) instruction. 16:33:51 -!- berat [n=berat@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:07 Since Scheme has continuations, there is one active hole, but there is in fact a list of holes. 16:34:27 fasta, maybe 'hole' is a bad way to say continuation 16:34:36 fasta: What in the world is a `hole'? 16:34:52 Yes, I guess it's a continuation. 16:34:57 In an interpreter you might realize continuations as lambda procedures 16:35:33 lets say that to write an interpreter you would want 3 things 16:35:42 (environment expression continuation) 16:35:44 fasta: Usually scheme implementations perform cps conversion, so every call is a tail call and no calls return. 16:36:06 so env. holds a mapping from variable names into values, expression is that which you are currently executing, and continuation is what will happen next 16:36:06 fasta: So, there is not need to keep a stack of continuations 16:36:42 even without CPS transform you don't have to store a list of continuations 16:36:44 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@249.Red-81-38-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:37:36 Oh, right. If you have Scheme with continuations, you can easily compile it to Scheme without continuations. 16:37:55 If you have a Scheme without continuations, you don't have a Scheme. 16:38:20 Of course, current continuation can `grow', but that's not a list of continuations, that's a single continuation at any given time 16:38:33 Mr-Cat: grow? 16:40:10 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 16:40:58 Yes. For example, in a simple recursive definition of factorial: (define (fact x) (if (= x 0) 1 (* x (fact (- x 1))))) it's the current continuation, which will accumulate the sequence of numbers to be multiplied. 16:41:37 After cps conversion, I mean. 16:42:44 fasta: Did we answer your question? 16:42:59 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:43:09 Mr-Cat, have you ever written a scheme interpreter in the way I mentioned earlier? 16:43:20 (without CPS translating beforehand) 16:43:22 Mr-Cat: well, conceptually there is a list of continuations (all the continuations saved in some data structure). 16:43:33 fasta: Because what I don't get is your: "Since Scheme has continuations, there is one active hole, but there is in fact a list of holes." 16:43:34 Mr-Cat: but after CPS conversion there is only one. 16:44:13 Cheshire: yes 16:44:19 Mr-Cat: does that make sense to you? 16:46:58 fasta: Do you mean, that every time one calls call/cc, there becomes an additional continuation? 16:47:35 Mr-Cat: no, I mean that you can store continuations in a data structure. And those together are a list of continuations. 16:48:02 fasta not accurate 16:48:43 Cheshire: why not? 16:50:03 fasta: Do you mean `to store continuations, that were "current" at different moments in the past?' 16:50:04 berat [n=berat@d-stu.ibun.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 16:50:06 hey 16:50:08 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:50:14 http://paste.org/5613 can someone check it out 16:50:16 Mr-Cat: yes 16:50:21 how can i fix that problem 16:50:32 i am actually newbie on drscheme 16:50:44 berat, look: ((eqv? (car body) body) 16:50:57 berat, it should be: ((eqv? (car body)) body) 16:51:29 but i want to compare 16:51:37 two different variable 16:51:46 one is s any number body is element 16:51:46 dlt____ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 16:51:53 fasta: Do you mean `Scheme program lifetime can be described by a series of functions, representing its current continuations at any given moment'? 16:52:09 Mr-Cat: no 16:52:32 what is my mistake in else 16:52:57 how can i fix that code 16:53:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:39 -!- el_diego [n=el_diego@80.80.170.164] has quit [] 16:53:47 i fix that 16:54:43 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:55:16 fasta: Then, I still don't get what you're trying to say or ask. I've already suggested, that you meant `call/cc saves current continuation and introduces one more continuation. So, it increases the number of stored continuations'. I could agree with that, but that was not what you meant. And not the same thing with storing previously current continuations... So, I've run out of guesses. :) 16:55:22 Cheshire, 16:55:57 Mr-Cat: I said yes to your Do you mean `to store continuations, that were "current" at different moments in the past? guess 16:56:20 http://paste.org/5615 how can i fix that 16:56:24 Ah, sorry. Didn't notice. 16:56:45 Mr-Cat: the only thing that was bothering me was how to model continuations stored in a data structure, but via CPS conversion, just like in assembly, there is only one current continuation. 16:56:57 Mr-Cat: ignoring multi-threaded issues. 16:57:29 Er continuation 16:57:33 Not current continuation 16:58:55 fasta: Is your question `how to implement call/cc?' 16:59:44 Mr-Cat: no, I doubt you can ask my real question, but for now I am satisfied. 16:59:44 When you use cps conversion, the continuation becomes an explicit parameter in every function. 16:59:52 Mr-Cat: answer* 17:00:33 lol "I doubt you can answer my real question" how stuck up 17:01:03 Not really, since if you could you would be famous probably. 17:01:20 fasta: hint: It doesn't matter what the actual question is -- the remark sounds the same 17:01:37 Ok, I doubt anyone could answer my real question. 17:01:44 that's better 17:01:57 There are lots of questions for which no human has an answer currently. 17:02:07 This happens to be one of them. 17:02:30 So, it was in no way a personal attack or anything. 17:02:56 Thank you 17:03:01 fasta: In fact, I still wonder, what you were trying to ask :) 17:03:41 So, I'm glad if I was just a little bit helpful :) 17:04:24 Ok, in assembly language it is very easy to store the current state of the program. I thought it would be more difficult in Scheme, but I forgot about the CPS conversion. 17:04:50 fasta, there is also an easy way that doesn't require CPS conversion 17:04:52 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:58 Cheshire: I am listening :) 17:05:07 I already told it earlier, as a triple 17:05:44 fasta: Ah, that's really what Cheshire told you about. 17:06:14 Cheshire: I kind of missed the comment, but read it now. Thanks 17:06:19 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-323686.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:07:02 The complete state of scheme program in a simple case is 'an environment' (which contains all the bindings), 'the rest of program to be evaluated' and 'the continuation'. 17:07:08 -!- Leonidas is now known as Leonidas1880 17:07:15 -!- Leonidas1880 is now known as Leonidas1980 17:07:58 That's like, frankly speaking, ds, cs and ip in assembly :) 17:10:13 kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:10:55 langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 17:11:07 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:29 kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:12:06 -!- Leonidas1980 is now known as Leonidas 17:12:46 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has joined #scheme 17:17:13 -!- fasta [n=a@217.109.160.5] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:18:51 -!- jonrafkind 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[n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #scheme 19:59:56 Hello. Can anyone recommend a good free implementation of scheme for gnu/linux? 20:01:14 parodyoflanguage: The majority of Scheme implementations if free and works under Linux 20:01:18 Scheme48,PLT Scheme,MIT Scheme,Chicken,Gambit,Gauche (in no particular order) 20:01:35 s/if/is/ 20:01:36 (others can undoubtely add more options for you) 20:01:50 ^ a good list 20:02:01 incubot: where is sarahbot when you need her? 20:02:04 Oh, did someone do a patch where the first CR after the {{{ wikitag doesn;t show up in the
?
20:02:19  ski_: Which one do you suggest?
20:02:24  yes
20:02:54  it depends on what you want
20:03:43  Well, are there any that are compilers?
20:03:54  if you just want to learn the language, then probably any of those would do for that
20:04:02 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has left #scheme
20:04:04 haole [n=ivan@200-232-198-68.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme
20:04:12  (if you want an IDE, then PLT Scheme may be for you)
20:04:35  how do i create byte strings with variable size? can't find it in plt scheme documentation... http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/bytestrings.html
20:05:00  at least the four first above have compilers (i don't know much about the latter two)
20:05:53  ski_: Well, I want to use emacs.
20:06:11  ski_: Do any of those have a native compiler?  And bindings for GTK and GNOME?
20:06:30  MIT Scheme has its own Emacs clone (Edwin) built-in (but its extension language is Scheme, of course)
20:07:26  i think Scheme48,PLT Scheme,Chicken have customized scheme-modes for you, should the generic ones not suffice
20:07:47  parodyoflanguage: sorry, do you actually say gnu/linux when speaking?
20:07:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme
20:08:16  MIT Scheme compiles to native-code, i think .. probably PLT too .. and Chicken compiles via C
20:08:27 *ski_* has no idea about GTK,GNOME
20:09:09  klutometis: sometimes
20:09:38  Sometimes it confuses people.
20:09:49  (also, if you use Emacs, you will probably want to check out paredit)
20:10:06  ski: thanks
20:10:56  la la la la
20:11:35     do re mi fa
20:12:53  parodyoflanguage: here's a couple gtk bindings: http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/tonyg/chicken/
20:12:58  http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/chicken-gtk
20:13:16 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme
20:13:21  i want to read a message from my udp socket and store it safely into a byte string, but the length of this message is variable... i know how to do every step in this, except how to store it in - maybe - a variable size byte string... can anyone help me?
20:19:09  possibly you can store into a byte string of some size, and if/when you need more storage, get a larger byte string, copy over, and continue storing, maybe trimming the size at the end ?
20:21:12  (possibly using  ?)
20:21:59  (hm .. or maybe `bytes-append' would be better here ?)
20:22:01  i see... so i can create a big buffer byte string and then copy only the part that i want...
20:22:39  i could create a byte string initialized with something like \0\0\0\0 and get everything before the first \0
20:22:43  gonna try that :)
20:23:15  better to keep an explicit count, instead of relying on not encountering `\0' in the actual data, methinks
20:24:13 *ski_* will go to sleep
20:25:00  i just tried the append stuff and it seems to work okay, since i can create a zero length byte string
20:25:03  thanks for the help
20:25:36  (np)
20:38:24  ski_: man, i still got problems on that issue... the udp-receive function is like this: (udp-receive!* socket buffer)... i can't use byte-append here, neither can i count the length of the incoming message... :(
20:43:29 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
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20:47:49  Check the values returned by `udp-receive'.  If you mean the length of the incoming message in advance, that's just how UDP works.
20:48:36 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
20:48:51  Are there any vector graphic libraries, except (unfinished cairo binding without even fonts rendering) available for plt?
20:49:13  except should be included in parens :P
20:49:43  I take it you want something a little higher-level than sgl?
20:51:55  I want something like cairo or agg. I don't know what sgl is unfortunately.
20:53:47  http://docs.plt-scheme.org/sgl/index.html
20:53:57  Is that sgl: http://sgl.sourceforge.net/? A `A 3D Scene Graph Library'? Then that's not what I need.
20:55:10  I need to render some vector primitives (lines, rects, ellipses) and probably some text with affine transformations applied and most likely in hsb color
20:55:15  in 2d
20:55:40  OpenGL will do 2d.  But text is problematic.
20:55:41 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host]
20:57:11  lisppaste: url
20:57:11  To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste.
20:57:14  Daemmerung: thanks... i'm a beginner at web development... i'm reading documentation about udp as well
20:58:09  i also have one doubt about scheme programming... if i want to use a messages protocol in the lisp format, are there any tools already implemented to parse this lisp messages?
20:58:12  Daemmerung pasted "RGV to HSV and vice versa" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76254
20:58:18  i would be glad to find some documentation for this
20:58:35  haole: no idea what you mean, sorry
20:58:59 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.48.10] has joined #scheme
20:59:21  Daemmerung: sorry... gonna try again: the strings that go through my udp socket use the lisp syntax... like (something (anotherthing 10 20) 30)
21:00:04  are there any tools available in pltscheme that implements a parser for this?
21:00:11  r5rs read
21:00:11  http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_612
21:00:13 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/58gpe2
21:00:50  Well, maybe opengl will do, but I think there is a reason why people use cairo or agg or gdiplus for such stuff (better picture quality I think). Seems, that chicken has a cairo binding too, so I'll study in both directions (opengl and cairo). btw, thanks for the link.
21:00:54  "strings that... use the lisp syntax" are called S-expressions.
21:01:42  thanks... as you can see, i just started today... but there is something really impressive about scheme... i'm trying to write a new client for the robocup soccer simulator, and the server uses s-expressions
21:02:06  the most famous c++ client has about 10k lines in its source code
21:02:15  and i think i can do it in scheme in less then 200 :)
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21:03:22  that's not c++ fault, though... the programmer of this framework didn't do a great job from a programmer's point of view... but i think that languages that are hard to learn induces the programmers into making bad software
21:03:34  but it's just my opinion, and my motivation to learn a new paradigm + language
21:03:47  sounds pretty stupid and not well thought out
21:04:11  Cheshire: the c++ client?
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23:07:55  mooo!
23:16:59  the cows came home, and no-one cheered :(
23:17:28 *leppie* will just wait till the fat lady sings
23:19:34  incubot: it was groucho marx in duck soup, apparently, that coined "cows come home"; now cheer!
23:19:36  (Marx indeed tried to base his arguments on a scientific basis, like other socialists of his time; Engels and Lenin failed miserably in trying to do so)
23:19:44  indeed
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23:40:18  incubot: the cows come home
23:40:21  I live in Switzerland, therefore I may not use computers and must occupy myself with cows and cheese instead?
23:40:29  LOL
23:40:38  excellent )
23:41:02  the way mr burns says it :)
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23:42:02  incubot: homer
23:42:04  he's not a nice guy like Homer, he is supposed to be a prick.
23:42:39  jeez, that's a conversation killer if I ever saw one
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