00:00:03 using apache 00:03:16 -!- incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:42 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-155-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:05 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:04:19 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-155-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:09:27 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:27 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:31 -!- jao [n=jao@25.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:16 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 00:15:00 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #scheme 00:15:43 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 00:16:38 -!- light [n=ghost@unaffiliated/light] has left #scheme 00:20:58 screenshot proof. http://www.neilvandyke.org/weblog/2009/02/#2009-02-19 00:21:31 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:27:54 jao [n=jao@220.Red-81-32-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:32:32 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-155-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 00:34:17 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:20 -!- tomelam [n=tomelam@122.167.108.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:51:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:56:20 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.42.154] has left #scheme 01:01:52 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 01:08:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:08:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:10:19 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 01:29:58 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 01:30:31 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:31:17 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:37:18 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFEB30.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:25 Qaexl [n=Akashakr@c-24-30-97-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:51:30 Riastradh: I don't understand why opencoding of FLO:ACOS and FLO:ASIN is not enabled. 01:51:57 Riastradh: The LAP code is perfectly functioning as is... 01:53:54 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEDE7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:17:09 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:09 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 02:24:44 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:28:22 good morning foof 02:31:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:27 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:31:59 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 02:32:05 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 02:33:16 Fast CGI uses a special network protocol to communicate between the CGI serving process and the web server... why couldn't it just use HTTP :> 02:34:33 synx: it multiplexes multiple sessions over a single channel 02:34:42 That's what's never quite made sense for me about FCGI or SCGI. 02:35:23 So does HTTP/1.1 if you care to. 02:36:26 how can http/1.1 multiplex over a single channel? by chunking? i don't think it can do it like fastcgi 02:36:38 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:37:29 in answer to your question, you can do http, but scgi leaves most of the hard work to a proper web server 02:37:39 I'm not sure how FastCGI does it. 02:38:03 You could just use simple HTTP and have a proper web server open to the public :> 02:38:20 yes, i was going to say that http proxying is not a bad approach either 02:38:26 scgi is still easier, though 02:39:08 neilv: I wondered about that too -- can describe what kind of stuff you don't need to deal with? 02:39:49 [Just that at the time I looked at it, it definitely seemed to me as the same amount of work as implementing http.] 02:40:00 SCGI might be easier, but not if you have to write a SCGI server. 02:40:34 I was thinking of switching to one of the X-cgi things from mod_python once, and then I realized that they were both pre-forking, so why bother? 02:41:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:13 eli: scgi is easier to parse. and you can leave things like authentication, encryption, throttling, fancy http features, etc. to apache 02:41:51 None of those are required for HTTP. Besides authentication in apache is awful. You can't even have auto-registration without going root! 02:41:52 it's also easy to leave apache serving static objects 02:43:25 It's easy to leave your mom serving static objects. 02:43:44 i've already implemented http servers, so i can do it again, i suppose. seemed like scgi was easier 02:43:49 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:44:03 neilv: Sounds like you get all of this also with proxying, no? 02:44:28 (Except, perhaps, for serving static files, which will be inconvenient with a proxy.) 02:44:57 I think perhaps the scgi implementations you were using were easier, neilv. 02:44:59 eli: not if the proxy serves the static files, but proxies the dynamic ones... 02:45:00 well, if you do proxying, then it's almost the same, from apache's perspective 02:45:17 synx: i don't use libraries. i write them :) 02:45:42 Hmm... 02:47:24 http://python.ca/scgi/protocol.txt is the SCGI protocol 02:48:30 it's about the simplest, most simple-minded protocol you'll find :) 02:48:37 seems pretty much exactly like HTTP GET, just with 00s in there 02:49:01 and chunking is implemented using [len]":"[string]",". 02:49:17 parsing http headers robustly is harder than you think 02:49:28 actually that example is exactly like HTTP POST 02:49:48 Who needs to parse the headers? Just pass them to the script. 02:49:53 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:12 can't be harder than parsing MIME headers 02:50:37 i have written code for all of that 02:50:49 and mime multipart 02:51:40 http://www.fastcgi.com/devkit/doc/fcgi-spec.html is the FastCGI spec... but that would make it a poorly defined protocol. 02:52:00 Since it uses C structs to describe its protocol, and you can't tell the packing, alignment, nor the endian-ness of those. 02:52:09 they cover that 02:52:29 read the spec, and you'll see 02:52:35 Not in that spec 02:53:07 They just say it's okay to pad packets for "alignment" which is different from alignment forcing two adjacent chars in a struct to be say 3 bytes apart. 02:53:25 Nothing about endianness. network byte order, but still... 02:54:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A05C9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:33 benny [n=benny@i577A0BF3.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 02:57:16 C has very few guarantees about what the bytes will look like if you examine the memory area where your structure exists. 02:59:44 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:08 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:02:26 synx: i did a lot of c. the spec uses c-like as a shorthand way of specifying a protocol that was very much designed for c. and no doubt the author thinks of it in terms of c implementation 03:03:50 probably yeah 03:04:44 it's my opinion that arbitrary sizes for fundamental data types is not the best idea for writing stable code. 03:05:03 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 03:05:23 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFEB30.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:29 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 03:13:12 most everyone implements protocols incorrectly and inefficiently 03:13:31 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:13:59 i should put together an efficient HTTP server library, and compare performance and ease-of-use with my SCGI library 03:14:09 i suspect it will be comparable 03:14:24 with the HTTP slower, if proxying 03:14:24 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:14:34 hmph 03:15:03 I suspect the biggest slowdown will be the time it takes to transfer the bits remotely, second only to the time it takes to load them from disk. 03:17:09 serve lots of dynamic pages at once, and suddenly you're not necessarily web i/o bound 03:17:44 and then expensive overhead can eat into the cpu you need for computing your page content 03:22:08 eli, ping 03:23:22 jonrafkind: pong 03:24:03 eli, to use syntax-case in a @defexamples I get "%app unbound in transformer environment". adding (require (for-syntax scheme/base)) in the @defexamples block fixes this but thats probably the wrong thing 03:24:20 specifically in syntax.scrbl how can I use syntax-case in an example 03:26:21 jonrafkind: You probably want to use #:eval, with an evaluator that you prebuild, and you do the require there before you use it. 03:26:36 If you grep the collections you should see some examples of using a predefined evaluator. 03:26:40 ok, I know how to do that, i have an example of it 03:26:45 I did it in my own documentation 03:27:35 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 03:27:46 *eli* gives jonrafkind a prize 03:28:14 I wasn't sure if it was the "right" solution :p 03:28:59 bremac [n=bremac@hlfxns01bbg-142177235137.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #scheme 03:29:01 rudybot: give jonrafkind a-prize 03:29:02 jonrafkind: eli has given you a value, use (GRAB) in an eval to get it (case sensitive) 03:29:18 rudybot: (GRAB) 03:29:19 jonrafkind: ? 03:29:27 -!- bremac [n=bremac@hlfxns01bbg-142177235137.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has left #scheme 03:29:32 rudybot: (GIVE ME MY FRIGGING PRIZE) 03:29:32 jonrafkind: ? 03:29:44 "... in an eval ..." 03:29:52 rudybot: (eval '(GRAB)) 03:29:52 jonrafkind: ? 03:29:57 this is awesome 03:30:01 rudybot: (eval (GRAB)) 03:30:02 jonrafkind: ? 03:30:02 *eli* sighs 03:30:14 so easy to use 03:30:18 rudybot: ed 03:30:19 Riastradh: ? 03:30:26 rudybot: eval (+ 1 2) 03:30:26 eli: ; Value: 3 03:30:30 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 03:30:31 jonrafkind: your sandbox is ready 03:30:31 jonrafkind: ; Value: "A cheap prize" 03:31:39 haha yea, rudybot: bringing back the ed error messages you know and love 03:32:23 I have had a very long discussion with offby1 on an appropriate message. 03:32:42 One option is -nothing-, which I'm sure you'd appreciate as much more helpful. 03:33:03 What about `say ``rudybot: help'' for help'? 03:33:22 Another would be "I cannot understand you, please use `foo', `bar', or `baz' as a command to blah blah blah". 03:33:26 if nothing scores a 0 on the 0-10 help scale, then ? scores a 0.000000000000000001 03:33:59 Riastradh: I'd vote for that too, but I think that he thought that it would be too verbose. 03:34:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:34:04 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:09 how can an error message be to verbose? 03:34:26 How about `try ``rudybot: help'''? 03:34:29 it could recite the collective works of shakespeare for all I care 03:34:31 jonrafkind: Of course not. Imagine that any scheme error will not cause any output. 03:35:08 huh 03:35:14 I'd say that on that scale "?" is more like a 4. 03:35:21 offby1: ping 03:35:32 rudybot: later tell offby1 see the logs. 03:35:33 minion: memo for offby1: eli told me to tell you: see the logs. 03:35:33 Remembered. I'll tell offby1 when he/she/it next speaks. 03:35:46 psh, ? actually scores a negative number for me 03:36:28 its like the computer is slapping me in the face. "?" is like saying "hey buddy, something is wrong.. but you'll never figure it out! MWAHAHA" 03:36:53 jonrafkind: That's a verifiable bad score for it compared to silence. The default error "response" *was* silent for a long time. You can grep the logs and see how it confused many peoples. 03:37:29 yes, no response is negative a googleplex, ? is negative quadrillion. and "help" is a 5 03:38:35 I find "?" to be completely appropriate in regards to a general error 03:38:37 ok, so normalizing these numbers to a 0-10 scale, we get that no reply is 0 and "?" is around 9.99. 03:39:04 ok ? is -(googleplex-1) 03:39:23 btw, thats the wrong spelling isnt it. its like googol or something 03:39:38 *eli* slaps jonrafkind with a heavy continuation 03:42:54 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 03:43:49 rudybot: help 03:43:50 jonrafkind: help [], version, quote, source, seen , uptime, init [], eval ..., give ..., apropos ..., desc , doc , later "tell" ... 03:47:03 *offby1* grumbles 03:48:27 rudybot: quote 03:48:28 mejja: Let's animate our cusor. 03:49:40 eli: can't talk for long -- dinner impends -- but I assume you'd like me to replace '?' with something a tad more useful 03:49:41 offby1, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: see the logs. 03:49:44 yeah yeah 03:49:55 rudybot: later tell minion later tell eli later tell fell hell bell. 03:49:56 minion: memo for minion: offby1 told me to tell you: later tell eli later tell fell hell bell. 03:49:56 Buzz off. 03:50:05 such language. 03:51:05 rudybot: later tell rudybot buzz off. 03:51:06 minion: memo for rudybot: eli told me to tell you: buzz off. 03:51:06 Remembered. I'll tell rudybot when he/she/it next speaks. 03:51:06 rudybot, memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: buzz off. 03:51:07 minion: memo from rudybot: eli told me to tell you: buzz off. 03:51:07 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 03:51:33 rudybot: quant 03:51:39 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot help". 03:52:03 *eli* smiles 03:52:06 rudybot: uptime 03:52:07 eli: I've been up for five days, four hours; this tcp/ip connection has been up for five days, four hours 03:52:34 rudybot, #@#$#@$ 03:52:35 jonrafkind: eh? Try "rudybot help". 03:52:38 hooray 03:52:42 offby1: Shouldn't that be "rudybot: help"? 03:52:45 (with a colon) 03:53:16 just curious, offby1 how did you change the code without reloading the bot? 03:53:27 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #scheme 03:54:34 jonrafkind: collects/handin-server/private/reloadable.ss 03:55:11 Woot for reloadable code.! 03:56:08 neat 03:56:58 OK, this is no longer funny. 03:57:10 I need a good LC exercise. 03:57:16 Something that shows off laziness. 03:57:26 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 03:57:31 samefringe? 03:57:36 quicksort 03:58:08 too heavy -- I'm talking about a *real* LC language -- one where numbers and everything is defined as functions. 03:58:21 And I need something that students can deal with. 03:58:31 add1 03:59:01 (quicksort, btw, is not showing any laziness addition; samefringe is too advanced to get the idea, and add1 is part of what we do in class.) 03:59:19 something interesting, pure lambda calculus, students can understand. pick two 03:59:24 Prime number stream? 03:59:46 No, I don't want to shock them with infinite lists just yet. 04:00:00 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 04:00:05 jonrafkind: the last two, if you must. 04:00:36 I do have one problem -- the N-queen problem -- but I can't find anything similar in cuteness/laziness/simplicity. 04:00:56 a sat solver? 04:01:04 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:01:18 Too theoretical for the course. 04:01:29 this is your PL class isnt it? 04:02:15 jonrafkind: yes. 04:02:44 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:04:56 so it appears in guile it is possible to pass "if" around as a first class object. In MzScheme that doesn't work. What is the deal with "if" as a first class object? 04:05:20 It shows that Guile is broken. 04:05:30 Riastradh: why? 04:05:38 eli: admit it, you need sicp! 04:06:19 Consider the following procedure: 04:06:22 The evaluator in SICP is also broken wrt syntax. 04:06:25 eli: you're right. 04:06:34 rudybot: say WHAT?! 04:06:39 (lambda (foobar) (foobar #t 'fnord (begin (display "Hello, world!") 3))) 04:06:39 *offby1: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 04:06:43 try (let ((begin +)) (begin 1 2)) in the SICP evaluator 04:06:56 eli: thank you for fulfilling the promise of Lisp :) 04:07:19 peter_12, surely, when the procedure yielded by that lambda expression is called, "Hello, world!" should be output. 04:07:40 Riastradh: I will consider for a moment 04:08:05 rudybot: eval (define (frobblethorpe foobar) (foobar #t 'fnord (begin (display "Hello, world!") 3))) 04:08:07 Riastradh: error: make-evaluator: expecting a single `module' program; got more than a single expression 04:08:11 rudybot: init scheme 04:08:12 Riastradh: your scheme sandbox is ready 04:08:13 rudybot: eval (define (frobblethorpe foobar) (foobar #t 'fnord (begin (display "Hello, world!") 3))) 04:08:44 rudybot: eval (frobblethorpe (lambda (x y z) (list x y z))) 04:08:45 Riastradh: ; Value: (#t fnord 3) 04:08:46 Riastradh: ; stdout: "Hello, world!" 04:08:57 rudybot: eval (frobblethorpe (lambda (x y z) (if x y z))) 04:08:57 Riastradh: ; Value: fnord 04:08:58 Riastradh: ; stdout: "Hello, world!" 04:09:30 rudybot: seen frobblethorpe 04:09:31 *offby1: No sign of frobblethorpe 04:09:34 rudybot: seen snogglethorpe 04:09:34 *offby1: snogglethorpe was seen quitting in/on fencepost.gnu.org sixteen hours ago, saying ""cheez"", and then snogglethorpe was seen joining in/on :#emacs one hour, twenty-five minutes ago 04:09:42 Pass any (ternary) procedure that suits your fancy; FROBBLETHORPE will, in any correct Scheme implementation, output "Hello, world!" before passing control to the procedure you gave it. 04:10:03 Riastradh: If foobar was equal to if then the procedure would not display 04:10:25 The name FOOBAR was bound as a variable. 04:10:38 Riastradh: yes 04:10:47 it is the formal parameter 04:11:07 so what if "if" is passed as the actual parameter to that procedure? 04:11:40 By lexically examining the definition of FROBBLETHORPE, I can see that the operator in the combination (FOOBAR ...) is bound to a variable. 04:11:59 Thus the expression means a procedure call. 04:12:21 The rule for evaluating a procedure call is to evaluate the subexpressions, and then to pass, to the value of the first subexpression, the values of the remaining subexpressions as arguments. 04:13:05 Riastradh: during your lexical analysis, aren't you assuming that the body form of the procedure is a procedure call? 04:13:13 why should you be able to assume that? 04:13:35 The name FOOBAR means a variable. It does not mean a special operator with special evaluation rules. 04:13:36 Imagine that all you are allowed to assume is that it is "a form application" 04:14:03 peter_12: how'd you're time with LUA go? 04:14:04 The meaning of an expression of the form ( ...), when is not a special operator, is a procedure call. 04:14:21 Arelius: the Lua source code is very easy to read. 04:14:39 peter_12: afaik it's not a JIT though. 04:14:42 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:14:56 The meaning of the form ( .
), when is a special operator, can vary arbitrarily according to . But if the car of the expression is not a special operator, then the expression means procedure call. 04:15:54 Riastradh: I don't doubt your knowledge of Scheme. It could be defined differently (for a non-scheme lisp), couldn't it? 04:16:03 [Editorial comment, not stating mere fact: This is how we reason locally about Scheme programs. Without this, Scheme programs would be very hard to reason about.] 04:16:27 peter_12: the term -lisp- is pretty broad. 04:16:38 You can create your own language if you wish. If your language does not have the properties that I have described, then it is not a correct implementation of Scheme. 04:16:48 Arelius: It compiles the Lua source code to VM byte code and then interprets the VM byte code. Perhaps that counts as "JIT". 04:17:03 peter_12: no, not really. 04:17:07 Riastradh: fair enough 04:17:22 Guile fails to exhibit the properties of the above program that I described. Thus it is broken. 04:17:25 I figure JIT means it compiles to native machine code and then dynamically links that in. 04:17:33 peter_12: JIT implies that it compiles to machine code, and means that it does said compiliation Just in time to run it. 04:18:10 Riastradh: I suppose it is a broken Scheme. 04:18:28 peter_12: lua is just a bytecode interpreter. 04:18:34 Arelius: "JIT" seems to be an elusive term like "OOP" 04:18:47 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:18:52 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:18:56 Arelius: well it does compile the byte code "just in time" 04:19:05 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 04:19:07 you can compile in advance if you want to with the luac tool 04:19:57 Arelius: I'm curious why they compile to byte code at all. Is it so much faster to have a virtual register machine interpreting byte code than just walking the AST during interpretation? 04:20:04 isn't the whole source batch compiled on load? 04:20:25 peter_12: It's debatable, but generally bytecode has better memory coherency. 04:20:27 Arelius: yes it is compiled on load 04:20:42 peter_12: compile on load != just in time 04:20:55 just in time is compile on function call. 04:21:00 pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 04:21:03 ahh 04:21:04 ok 04:21:17 "memory coherency" means better better use of the physical memory layout? 04:21:44 peter_12: yeah, generally in regards to cache lines. 04:23:26 what si the best way to play mp3s in drscheme? 04:23:50 anyone tried the netflix prize in Scheme? can scheme handle 17K*450K sparse matrices or am im better off using C++? 04:24:22 what would be the smallest way to store something that represents a grade between 1 and 5 in scheme? 04:25:08 as part of a vector? 04:25:26 Anyways, g2g talk to you later. 04:28:11 How about...a number, pilkarn? 04:28:42 42. 04:28:56 i mean bits 04:28:58 fixnum? 04:29:12 What is this `fixnum' thing of which you speak? 04:30:01 well what is smallest amount of memory to store number? 04:30:08 doesnt matter? it is not like C? 04:30:19 It is not something that you need to worry about. 04:30:20 where you can stire as itn double etc an d do sizeof? 04:30:41 really? for a 20K*500K (sparse though) matrix? 04:31:41 Riastradh: so it would seem the Scheme designers specifically decided that the Guile behavior is disallowed 04:32:15 You should concern yourself more with the representation of the matrix than with how much space small integers occupy. 04:34:31 rryan [n=rryan@ATRIUS.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:35:24 does anyone else notice that xscheme doesn't work on emacs23 with mit-scheme's latest version ? The interaction buffer doesnt send the current line when you hit RET. 04:35:38 Use C-x C-e, not RET. 04:38:02 In other words: Follow the instructiosn that appear the moment you run `M-x run-scheme RET' in xscheme. 04:38:05 Instructions, even. 04:38:54 riastradh: I will use a hash-map since i only have to store key: (movie,user) then 04:39:00 and can leave out all the zeros 04:39:02 good? 04:39:38 Riastradh: so why is flo:acos & flo:asin not inlined? 04:40:47 ristradh : ahh.. thanks -- umm fairly sure in a previous version it was bound to RET.. 04:40:52 No, rryan. 04:42:05 lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has joined #scheme 04:42:36 You may have bound RET yourself in your .emacs file, or you may have been typing M-RET rather than RET, but RET has never been bound in xscheme. 04:42:43 gotcha 04:44:38 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.63.194] has joined #scheme 04:47:27 Riastradh: so what do you suggest, parse the whole set in to some easy parseable format which represents the dataset in a much smaller amount of memory. then read in from that to do the analysis. 04:47:33 bitweiler [n=bitweile@70.237.131.217] has joined #scheme 04:48:38 I don't know what problem you're trying to solve; if that would solve your problem, then sure. 04:49:09 *mejja* mumbles 04:49:17 So I suppose there would be no desperate need for macros at all and their associated problems if you are in control of the language implementation and can add special forms to the implementation at will. 04:49:34 mejja, I don't know why. The code they generate looks rather sketchy. 04:49:45 That's like saying "there's no need for public transit if you can build a school or restaurant wherever you want". 04:49:50 I mean, sure, but ... 04:49:54 rudybot: give peter_12 "a new scheme" 04:49:55 mejja: your sandbox is ready 04:49:55 peter_12: mejja has given you a value, use (GRAB) in an eval to get it (case sensitive) 04:50:49 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:50:54 I don't get it 04:50:58 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:51:01 (EVAL '(GRAB)) 04:51:09 (EVAL (GRAB)) 04:51:16 (GRAB) 04:51:28 peter_12: rudybot: eval (GRAB) 04:51:40 rudybot: eval (grab) 04:51:41 peter_12: your sandbox is ready 04:51:41 peter_12: error: reference to undefined identifier: grab 04:51:53 rudybot: eval (GRAB) 04:51:54 peter_12: ; Value: "a new scheme" 04:51:55 Do you know what `case sensitive' means, peter_12? 04:52:05 rudybot: give offby1 "a noogie" 04:52:06 *offby1: error: Talk to yourself much too? 04:52:09 oh. 04:52:15 rudybot: give snordly-pordly "a noogie" 04:52:17 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 04:52:17 *offby1: error: procedure application: expected procedure, given: "has given you a value, say \"~a: eval (GRAB)\""; arguments were: "rudybot" 04:52:18 It's a term detectives use for sensitive information about one of their cases. 04:52:22 oops! 04:52:36 oops! 04:52:37 rudybot: give snordly-pordly "a noogie" 04:52:40 snordly-pordly: offby1 has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 04:52:54 Macros grant a nice way to implement a large class of special operators. Even if the language didn't expose them, they would be convenient in the implementation of the language to implement many of its special operators. 04:55:25 -!- neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:55:29 macros seem to make a mess of the top level and one file depending on another file (e.g. require) 04:55:48 macros seem to have their fair share of problems too 04:56:23 yeah, if not used properly 04:56:34 Macros require more than a LOAD procedure. 04:57:14 even then they seem problematic 04:57:19 Define `problematic'. 04:57:52 what if a program wants to dynamically depend on another file and that other file defines some macros 04:57:59 Why? 04:58:20 the calling file is already compiled at that time so those macros cannot be used in the calling file 04:58:35 I mean: Why do you encounter this bizarre state of affairs? 04:58:42 ahh 04:58:56 lazy loading 04:58:58 save memory 04:58:59 Such a state of affairs generally implies that the author of the program is confused. 04:59:10 Riastradh: I don't think that is the case 04:59:13 If you compile the other file beforehand, you can still load it lazily. 04:59:39 Riastradh: you may not have the other file beforehand 04:59:45 Why not? 04:59:58 it might be expensive to load a file across a remote connection 05:00:35 Please give me an example of a useful program that exhibits the contortions you're describing. 05:00:45 anything in a web browser 05:00:53 Be specific. 05:01:19 Riastradh: http://280slides.com/ 05:01:47 they lazy load code as needed 05:03:13 I don't see a description of how this program works on the web page, and I'm not about to dig about, so unless you clarify, I'll assume that the program works as follows: 05:03:46 1. There is a large amount of JavaScript code in separate pieces. 05:04:33 2. Only a small amount of the JavaScript code is fetched by the web browser at first. This application is so unbelievably hairy that it will actually take more than a few hundred milliseconds for a web browser to download the rest. 05:05:26 3. The small amount of JavaScript code calls other parts of the code, which you want to be incrementally fetched as needed. 05:05:48 Is that accurate? 05:05:59 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-130-203.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:08 *bitweiler* nudges Riastradh and says, "Bet you a 12 pack of beer peter_12 can't clarify it up." 05:07:10 rudybot: ? 05:07:10 sladegen: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 05:07:35 "rudybot: help" 05:07:35 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:07:36 bitweiler, by the way, did your problems last night turn out to be local to your machine, or did you have to make any of the modifications I suggested (or any other modifications) to what I sent you? 05:08:34 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:08:56 I had to update pkgsrc/mk on my labtop but the problems persists on my desktop system and I forget to log last night 05:09:10 peter_12, I'm about to go to bed; if you want to know why this poses no problems for macros that do not already exist, speak now. 05:09:20 bitweiler, are you using pkgsrc-2008Q4? 05:09:22 I'm just reading 05:09:24 it's up and running on labtop though ;) 05:09:30 no current 05:09:42 Riastradh: before you go to bed.. care to do some testing? 05:09:53 mejja, how much? If it involves rebuilding the compiler, not tonight. 05:10:02 mejja pasted "LAP for flonum sin, cos, tan & exp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75839 05:10:07 Riastradh: that is how the website works 05:10:14 Yes, recompiling the compiler... 05:10:26 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176217070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:10:39 Riastradh: I don't want to keep you up but I'll ask you about this and macros later, if that is ok 05:10:44 peter_12, then the web browser still need only download, well, what it needs -- the files that define the macros that are used by the first file. 05:10:55 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:11:13 Riastradh: can you recap the modifications again please 05:11:53 bitweiler, the only one I remember is to add `.include "../../x11/xproto/buildlink3.mk"' after `.include "../../x11/libX11/buildlink3.mk"' in wip/mit-scheme/options.mk. 05:12:05 Riastradh: what if there is code like (lambda (a) (remote-load "asdf") (special-form a)) 05:12:09 Check the logs referenced in the topic for anything else I suggested. 05:12:14 peter_12, there isn't, because that doesn't make sense. 05:12:17 that special form is defined in the asdf file 05:12:42 Riastradh: it makes perfect sense for a procedure, why not a special form? 05:12:45 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:12:53 Because the meaning of a program is determined before its execution. 05:12:54 -!- eno_ is now known as eno__ 05:13:17 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:13:23 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 05:13:55 Riastradh: I think it would be advantageous to be able to late-load asdf and use one of the special forms defined therein 05:14:04 don't you? 05:14:06 The meaning is dependent only lexically apparent information. In Scheme (say, R6RS, or PLT Scheme, or Scheme48, or anything that is remotely sensible concerning macros and modules), the module description for a program tells what names have what meanings assumed in the program. 05:14:10 No. 05:15:16 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:15:17 Riastradh: so you are saying that the "special-form" needs to be lexically visible somewhere earlier in the source file that I've shown above? 05:15:35 Yes, or the module description for the source code needs to say where SPECIAL-FORM came from. 05:16:12 Actually, sorry: scratch what I said about the R6RS and about PLT Scheme. Scheme48 tells you; the R6RS and PLT Scheme exhibit the problem that you're referring to. 05:16:14 some kind of manifest at the top of the file, like a header for the code 05:16:30 (remote-load "http://r6rs.scheme.org/base/scheme") ... 05:16:46 Approximately, peter_12. 05:17:00 Riastradh: I'll have a look at how Scheme48 does it. Thanks. 05:18:03 -!- eno is now known as eno__ 05:18:11 -!- Eekdacat [i=Eekdacat@cpe-74-70-17-167.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:19:12 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 05:25:51 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:02 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176196212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:01 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-158-55.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:32:46 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-195-144-175.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:35:44 mejja, (FLO:SIN 1e22) gives .46261304076460175, not -.8522008497671888. 05:36:03 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:05 Excuse me; I don't know whether the 1888 is correct, but the previous digits are, I believe. 05:37:34 *Riastradh* vanishes. 05:38:01 You need to stage the runtime 05:38:22 -!- hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@adsl-70-250-178-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 05:38:33 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-70-250-178-94.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:39:21 rudybot: eval (sin 1e22) 05:39:21 mejja: ; Value: 0.46261304076460175 05:41:59 daveamayombo [n=dlipsky@c-98-212-195-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:15 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 06:00:32 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:01:26 argggg! wtf? regression crept in (in IronScheme) .... (sin 1e22) => 1e22 :( 06:02:02 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:02:42 hmm it works up to 1e18, weird... 06:02:56 rudybot: eval (sin 1e18) 06:02:57 leppie: your sandbox is ready 06:02:57 leppie: ; Value: -0.9928161040530035 06:03:20 ok at least that is right :) 06:07:46 interesting, im calling the .NET Math.Sin directly, appears to be a bug on their side! 06:08:45 when reading and writing files does the language matter or it is more hardware dependent? 06:08:46 yip, does the same in C# :( 06:12:43 oh, not a bug, by design... omg 06:13:55 sounds more like lazy to me.. 06:15:52 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["leaving"] 06:17:50 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:36 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:27:21 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 06:34:47 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:05 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 06:43:14 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:51:36 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:09:42 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-127.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:11:19 mejja: No, I don't think that sicp has anything close to that. 07:17:37 lowlycoder [n=x@DNab43896b.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:21:27 -!- daveamayombo [n=dlipsky@c-98-212-195-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:22:51 mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has joined #scheme 07:24:03 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:24:21 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:24:33 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:24:52 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-147-62.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:26:25 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:26:39 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:26:52 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 07:33:34 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:30 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:53 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:40:15 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:17 -!- lowlycoder [n=x@unaffiliated/lowlycoder] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:40:55 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 07:41:31 limestone [i=d109eda8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-726e397066c8d6ba] has joined #scheme 07:41:45 PLT Scheme sandbox Q 07:41:54 ees eet safe? 07:42:18 just read http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/2008-December/029244.html 07:43:53 limestone: yes 07:45:13 Eli: so I can safely let all and sundry run scheme code? E.g. a MUD with scheme instead of some DSL 07:46:01 Eli: Was it "unsafe" before that update, and if so, how do you know it's safe post-changes 07:47:13 in scheme48 is there a scheme level macro expand? 07:47:22 and not the debugging ,expand 07:48:03 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:49:06 Eli: thanks for doing the sandboxing 07:49:42 jah [n=jah@217.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 07:50:56 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:55:00 Eli: I tried PyPy/rpython but all sorts of errors... someone else is having problems; it runs but doesn't limit CPU, who knows what else 07:55:17 sandboxes are hard! Let's go shopping! 07:55:47 limestone: Yes, I know it was unsafe before, and I know that it's safe now -- I implemented all the missing pieces. 07:56:01 And, sandboxes are easy. No need for shopping. 07:58:34 eli: Thanks! That rocks. I think there aren't any good collaborative programming sites because of a lack of sandboxes for decent languages 07:58:44 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:58:54 limestone: build some... 07:59:08 reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:59:17 eli: I will now 07:59:29 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:59:34 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:59:52 limestone: FWIW, it's easy to setup a sandbox -- you basically just do `make-module-evaluator' and the path to the file or the string of its contents. 08:00:08 eli: It limits CPU too, right? 08:00:11 limestone: for example, adding the ability to start a sandbox from a url to rudybot was about 5 lines long. 08:00:21 limestone: It limits the time for every interaction. 08:00:58 eli: what about instruction-level limiting? E.g. a function might take a slightly different amount of time depending on what else is going on in the system 08:01:38 eli: but getting the axe when it's 99% done might not be super awesome 08:02:15 There's no support for that level of time limits. It's basically setting a limit in real time for each interaction. 08:04:03 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:04:40 eli: Is there an internal instruction counter in there somewhere? E.g. the python interpreter runs 100 bytecode instructions at a time, when it's using fake threads 08:06:31 before switching 08:06:43 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:28 limestone: No, it's just a timer -- real time. 08:07:54 higepon505 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:59 There's no sense in limiting the number of instructions, since then if the implementation changes to implement some builtin differently, you'd get different limits in your sandbox. 08:08:45 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:08:51 eli: yes, but only if you change versions... in which case it's expected 08:08:56 "Elis recent work makes me feel like someone snuck into my house, cleaned it, stocked the fridge with food from Zabars, replaced my crappy old TV with a nice big flatscreen, and left gold-foil-wrapped chocolate mints on my pillow." 08:10:13 so mzscheme doesn't have an internal counter in there anywhere? 08:10:54 foof [n=user@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:13:10 unrelated question... would someone with extensive experience in VB.NET (over 2 years) have any trouble with SICP? 08:13:15 just kidding. 08:15:47 well, the opposite certainly is true.. 08:16:12 -!- jah [n=jah@217.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 08:16:30 i never used VB 08:16:37 I'll defer to the sexperts on that one. 08:19:35 eli: What's the performance hit for sandboxed mz? 08:22:12 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 08:22:17 all: favorite scheme tutorial? 08:22:25 python expat 08:22:50 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 08:24:41 http://chemistry.about.com/cs/chemists/a/researchpaper.htm :) 08:25:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:25:17 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:26:37 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 08:27:03 sjamaan: awesome 08:28:31 It's funny 'coz it's true :) 08:30:01 "Correct within an order of magnitude" -> So very, very wrong. 08:30:05 Ha ha ha! 08:30:07 yes haha 08:30:21 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:30:56 -!- Deformati [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:11 Deformati [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has joined #scheme 08:44:00 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054033.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:44:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:46:19 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 08:49:47 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 08:59:08 catch y'all lata! 08:59:17 -!- limestone [i=d109eda8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-726e397066c8d6ba] has left #scheme 09:06:37 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 09:09:10 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[n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:55:46 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 12:09:04 Nate75Sanders [n=Nate75Sa@cpe-76-88-156-88.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:13:30 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 12:14:16 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.67] has joined #scheme 12:18:08 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.63.194] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:19:51 elmex_ [i=elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #scheme 12:20:21 -!- Guest49558 [n=m@dslb-088-067-040-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:20:31 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 12:26:38 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:31:43 Anyone try this out? http://stereopsis.com/flux/ 12:33:18 nope 12:33:50 I'm mostly nocturnal, so I'm not sure something that makes me want to sleep at night is a good thing. 12:34:17 :) i'm mostly working in emacs -rv, i don't think it would help me.. 12:38:57 no linux 12:40:02 i can and do manage my screen brightness manually anyway - laptop with hardware brightness controls so it's easy 12:40:33 -!- troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:49:37 it also tweaks color 12:49:49 no source == spyware 13:07:02 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:17 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:05 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:16:03 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:16:47 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:16 bitweiler [n=bitweile@adsl-69-154-35-137.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 13:28:39 Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #scheme 13:45:39 jah [n=jah@217.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 13:45:42 leppie, it is a bug in your hardware's architecture. It's really stupid. 13:46:10 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:36 The correct value is approximately -.8522. On, say, a PowerPC, this is what you'd get from the hardware's floating-point sine instruction. But on the x86, the hardware is stupid and broken. 13:56:33 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:58:12 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:58:38 -!- higepon964 [n=taro@FL1-122-135-74-92.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:02 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:09:29 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-43.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:18:37 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:18:43 -!- bitweiler [n=bitweile@adsl-69-154-35-137.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:34 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:29:55 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 14:30:06 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:30:23 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:31:17 mike [n=m@dslb-088-066-250-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 14:31:46 -!- mike is now known as Guest70420 14:32:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 14:35:19 borism [n=boris@195-50-211-18-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 14:37:37 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:41:41 -!- mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:06 Madars- [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #scheme 14:47:12 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:55:20 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:55:56 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:03 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 15:00:07 -!- Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:06:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:11:26 mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has joined #scheme 15:12:58 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:13:24 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:13:47 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 15:14:18 wingo-tp [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:33 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 15:16:33 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:52 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 15:30:56 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:39:20 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:22 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:42:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:46 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 15:43:24 -!- Guest70420 [n=m@dslb-088-066-250-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:43:59 acarrico [n=acarrico@pppoe-68-142-37-157.gmavt.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:12 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:19 rudybot is running on x86, and yet appears to give the right answer 15:47:27 maybe mzscheme has some sort of built-in workaround? 15:51:51 dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 15:52:33 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 15:53:09 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:15 Riastradh: I know that due to the size of the number the increment is probably bigger than the interval, but there is no reason why it should return results outside the domain/range (whatever, cant recall exact name) of the sin function [-1,1] 15:54:51 i would certainly not have minded inaccurate results 15:56:37 (sin 1e22) on Windows calculator => -0.98480775301220805936674302458952 15:57:36 Some other results: 15:57:37 Haskell gives 0.8740280612007598 15:57:48 SpeedCrunch (calculator app) gives -0.85220084976718880177 15:58:01 Python gives 0.41214336710708466 (using math.sin(1e22)) 15:58:08 GCC gives 0.412143 15:58:13 Gnat (Ada) gives 0.462613040430275 15:58:22 g77 (Fortran) gives 0.226946577 15:58:38 but they all still valid return values 15:59:18 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #scheme 16:00:44 kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 16:00:55 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:02:12 (mod 1e18 (angle -1)) => 128.0 :( 16:04:58 Whatever is the utility of passing a bignum to sin? Guessing the underlying numerical method used for calculating/approximating that value? 16:05:40 Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has joined #scheme 16:05:46 im not worried about accuracy, it the values I get that are outside [-1,1] I am worried about 16:05:54 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.math.sin.aspx 16:06:33 which means I need to add extra checks everytime i call a trig proc :( 16:09:11 guile gives 0.462613040764602 16:09:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:09:32 Alternately, you say "fuck it," and just return whatever your underlying runtime returns. Anybody calling (sin 1e22) can't really care much what the actual return value might be, can they? 16:09:56 true :) 16:10:00 well nobody knows that numbers that big really exist 16:10:14 it starts failing at 9e18 16:10:54 iirc we only /know/ that everything below a million^2 is real and beyond that it gets a but fuzzy 16:11:20 I appreciate you wanting to maintain the range of the sin function, but there is a certain charm in seeing the runtime's boundary cases. 16:11:26 i want to count the stars after I finish count the grains of sand on earth 16:11:55 it's well known there's only a few hundred grains of sand and they just repeat in various formations 16:12:22 i.e. a microscope and pigenhole principle 16:12:44 Or the "Scientists in Half-Life" principle 16:15:09 ikarus gets it right too, uses GMP 16:15:36 ypsilon gives 0.41 16:16:44 leppie: what's the right answer? 16:16:56 -0.8522 somethign 16:17:04 -0.8522008497671888 16:18:21 'right' answer unless it was tested on 128bit floating point 16:18:45 and shown not to be correct 16:19:15 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 16:20:11 well Riastradh's explanation does explain a lot, esp why some of my other complex number tests fail. 16:21:41 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:22:44 I can get 0.87.. if I do Math.Sin(1e22 % (2 * Math.PI)) 16:22:58 which I would deem preferred 16:23:27 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #scheme 16:23:29 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:41 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:23:41 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 16:24:09 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:25:55 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:32:42 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-60-17-78.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:34:24 oops, i know why I have a mod bug :) I used the same algorithm as ypsilon 16:34:59 rudybot: eval (mod0 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))) 16:35:00 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: mod0 16:35:07 rudybot: eval (mod 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))) 16:35:08 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: mod 16:36:02 rudybot: eval (modulo 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))) 16:36:03 leppie: error: modulo: expects type as 2nd argument, given: 6.283185307179586; other arguments were: 1e+22 16:36:08 argg 16:36:23 PLT has no mod proc? 16:36:23 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:53 rudybot: eval fmod 16:37:55 wingo-tp: your sandbox is ready 16:37:55 wingo-tp: error: reference to undefined identifier: fmod 16:38:03 pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #scheme 16:38:42 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-101-123.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 16:38:58 rudybot: eval div-and-mod 16:38:59 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: div-and-mod 16:39:04 rudybot: eval div-mod 16:39:04 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: div-mod 16:39:07 rudybot: eval div 16:39:08 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: div 16:39:17 :O 16:40:41 problem is the R5RS modulo, remainder and quotient expects integers 16:41:53 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:42:03 rudybot: eval (define (mod x y) (- x (/ x y))) 16:42:17 rudybot: eval (mod 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))) 16:42:18 leppie: ; Value: 8.408450569081047e+21 16:42:45 oops 16:42:58 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:43:14 rudybot: eval i-give-up 16:43:15 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: i-give-up 16:43:19 Edico [n=Edico@82.78.143.5] has joined #scheme 16:43:47 -!- Edico [n=Edico@82.78.143.5] has left #scheme 16:45:17 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:45:52 rudybot: eval (define mod 16:45:52 (lambda (x y) 16:45:52 (* y (- (/ x y) (floor (/ x y)))))) 16:45:53 kryptiskt_: your sandbox is ready 16:45:53 kryptiskt_: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 16:45:58 oops 16:46:00 rudybot: eval (define (mod x y) (- x (* y (floor (/ x y)))))) 16:46:00 leppie: error: eval:1:46: read: unexpected `)' 16:46:02 rudybot: eval (define (mod x y) (- x (* y (floor (/ x y))))) 16:46:09 rudybot: eval (define (div-and-mod a b) (- a (* b (floor (/ a b))))) 16:46:10 Fulax: your r5rs sandbox is ready 16:46:11 rudybot: eval (mod 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))) 16:46:11 leppie: ; Value: 0.0 16:46:21 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:46:39 Edico [n=Edico@82.78.143.5] has joined #scheme 16:46:40 rudybot: eval (div-and-mod 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))) 16:46:41 Fulax: ; Value: 0.0 16:47:05 -!- Edico [n=Edico@82.78.143.5] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:48:01 interesting, i think i just found a perfect factor for pi :p 16:49:12 do you mean pi is rational ? 16:49:18 yeah! 16:49:20 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 16:50:38 rudybot: eval (/ 1e22 (* 2 (div0 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))))) 16:50:38 leppie: error: reference to undefined identifier: div0 16:50:45 ffs 16:51:25 rudybot: eval (define (div x y) (floor (/ x y))) 16:51:31 rudybot: eval (/ 1e22 (* 2 (div 1e22 (* 2 (angle -1))))) 16:51:32 leppie: ; Value: 3.1415926535897936 16:51:46 woohoo :) 16:51:50 It appears that Scheme's numerical tower needs a third gradation of exactness: exact, inexact, and accumulated-error-exceeds-original-operand. 16:53:38 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:56:09 actual 1e23 matches pi as much as floating point can 16:56:25 rudybot: eval (let ((dive (lambda (a b) (floor (/ a b))))) (/ 5e21 (dive 5e21 (angle -1)))) 16:56:25 Fulax: ; Value: 3.1415926535897936 16:56:36 rudybot: eval pi 16:56:36 Fulax: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: pi in module: 'program 16:56:43 rudybot: eval (acos -1) 16:56:44 Fulax: ; Value: 3.141592653589793 16:56:57 angle would work too :p 16:58:06 bbl 16:58:43 Please, no swearing; I'm underage 16:58:59 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 16:59:53 Pay no attention to the bot behind the curtain. 16:59:55 Hi offby1, the man who makes rudybot talking 17:01:46 Pay no attention to the man behind the keyboard. 17:03:08 now the funny thing is, doing 1e22 % (2 * Math.PI) on .NET gives me 1.06343181627615, but every scheme returns 0.0 17:03:45 you may try with Fortran 17:03:52 Daemmerung: crap! I didn't see that you'd said that when I had rudybot say that. 17:03:55 curse Daemmerung and his fast fingers 17:04:11 Daemmerung: actually I probably did, subliminally. 17:04:24 the real funny thing is, IronScheme returns 0.0 too, and it uses .NET! 17:04:31 *offby1* succumbs to a bizarre urge to write Daemmerung a large check 17:04:52 Great minds etc. ? 17:05:00 Fulax: uh, sure 17:05:15 Finally! A checkbox widget that I can see with my failing eyesight! 17:06:00 *Daemmerung* blinks feebly at the screen through Magoo-thickness glasses 17:09:40 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:54 hmmm, i made a mistake, windows calculator gets it right 17:11:02 -0.85220084976718880177270589375303 17:11:19 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 17:12:20 leppie: I do believe that you've found a bug in PLT Scheme's `floor'. 17:13:08 -- no, my mistake. It's returning an inexact integer. 17:13:29 guess they're gonna have to rip it up and put some new linoleum 17:15:51 rudybot: eval (exact? 1e22) 17:15:52 Fulax: ; Value: #f 17:16:54 rudybot: eval (exact? #e1e22) 17:16:55 Daemmerung: your sandbox is ready 17:16:55 Daemmerung: ; Value: #t 17:17:03 rudybot: eval (let ((dive (lambda (a b) (floor (/ a b)))) (n 5000000000000000000000)) (/ n (dive n (angle -1)))) 17:17:04 Fulax: ; Value: 3.1415926535897936 17:17:10 My cats will be excited to hear that the sandbox is ready. 17:17:52 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 17:18:11 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:18:17 rudybot: eval (let ((dive (lambda (a b) (floor (/ a b)))) (n 5000000000000000000001)) (/ n (dive n (angle -1)))) 17:18:18 Fulax: ; Value: 3.1415926535897936 17:18:44 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:20:13 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:21:41 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:25:57 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 17:28:38 Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #scheme 17:30:08 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054033.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:58 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:40:44 The joy of flonums. 17:41:27 rudybot: eval (integer? (let ((big 1e4)) (/ big (* 2 (angle -1))))) 17:41:28 Daemmerung: ; Value: #f 17:41:46 rudybot: eval (integer? (let ((big 1e22)) (/ big (* 2 (angle -1))))) 17:41:47 Daemmerung: ; Value: #t 17:42:08 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:23 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:22 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:28 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:45:45 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:08 -!- Madars- [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:01 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:54:01 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:58:19 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:00:49 leppie: http://www.validlab.com/arg.pdf 18:09:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:15:00 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 18:19:51 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:20:00 oh wow :p thanks 18:20:18 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@mo-rsmitha21.op.umist.ac.uk] has quit [] 18:20:53 dlt_ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has joined #scheme 18:23:20 http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5005861 18:23:21 http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4857011 18:25:28 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 18:26:58 "Thank you for your interest in Java numerics" - the *le siiiiigh* is almost audible in the comment. 18:27:49 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:58 barney [n=bernhard@p549A092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:38:13 From R5RS 6.2.5, a phrase that disappeared from R6Rs: "[...] unusual implementations may be able to represent some irrational numbers exactly or may extend the number system to support some kind of non-complex numbers." I miss the spirit that included such notes. 18:38:51 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:00 Daemmerung, amen. 18:40:41 peter_ [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 18:40:46 -!- peter_ is now known as sjamaan 18:40:57 non-complex numbers? like quaternions? or n-adic numbers? 18:42:01 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:42:06 I want a triadic scheme! 18:42:28 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:42 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:44:16 I want (* 4 (atan 1)) to return an exact value, and the subsequent meltdown of all existing clients of that expression! 18:44:22 Isn't there a quaternion example in SICP? Or am I thinking of something else? 18:45:04 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:22 Not in the 2nd ed, unless they call quats something else (such as "Ernie" or "Leeroy"). 18:49:01 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:50:25 Hm. 18:51:40 Ah, I'm mis-remembering: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/squat/squat.html 18:52:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:53:19 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:22 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:55:34 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:56:10 Which cites SICM to support "Scheme numerical procedures that work on complex numbers can be naturally extended to accept quaternion arguments." 18:56:54 Ah, SICM, not SICP! 18:57:03 Right. Thanks. 18:57:10 Never read it. Should I? 18:57:34 Well, if you like the subject matter, it's worth your time. 18:57:35 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:57:50 I'm not a fan of Classical Mechanics...I mean, Mozart didn't even own a car! 18:58:33 That's because he was always mooching rides off of Haydn. 18:59:43 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:00:38 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:00 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:01:24 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #scheme 19:09:49 jao [n=jao@220.Red-81-32-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:10:02 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:27 puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:20:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:05 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:34:34 incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:34:48 leppie, the hardware has a design bug. The FSIN instruction is not defined on operands outside the interval about zero of radius pi * 2^62. 19:35:59 gnomon: did you do SICM, and was it worth it? 19:36:04 interesting Riastradh, where can I read about that? 19:36:14 Intel documentation. 19:36:21 ok thanks :) 19:36:45 dlt____ [n=dlt@201.17.146.221] has joined #scheme 19:36:58 My apologies to Micorsoft then :) 19:37:52 This means that on the intervals [-2^1024, -pi * 2^62] and [pi * 2^62, 2^1024 - 1] or so (I have probably some fencepost errors), FSIN, FCOS, &c., may do whatever they want. 19:37:55 Those are big intervals. 19:38:45 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:47 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 19:40:47 This is why MIT Scheme's compiler does not generate code for them, and instead calls out to libc, which (one hopes) computes the correct answer. 19:40:56 libm, rather. 19:41:03 Riastradh: you have a link to the pdf/doc perhaps, my google foo is failing me tonite :( 19:41:22 It's doesn't on my two 32-bit installs. libm is as broken as the code I pasted yesterday. 19:41:35 Mac OS X's libm computes the correct answer. 19:41:37 NetBSD's does not. 19:43:15 Riastradh: nevermind, got it 19:44:37 thanks Riastradh 19:45:43 it says 2^63 though, which is close to pi * 2^62 19:46:06 OK. I was going off of a comment that Chris added to the MIT Scheme source; I don't have the Intel documentation handy. 19:46:32 Spot on never the less :) 19:46:58 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 19:48:04 glibc appears to compute the correct answer. 19:48:47 ThF [n=ThF@AAnnecy-158-1-29-55.w90-42.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:49:07 maybe using a slower method for those cases? 19:50:22 I don't think they bother for machines without SSE support or some such. 19:50:39 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A092D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:57 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:26 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:55:54 silkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 19:56:32 what si the easiest way to play an mp3 in scheme? 19:57:14 so Riastradh in your opinion, do you agree with Daemmerung suggestion of how I should deal with this? 19:57:19 silkarn: (system "mp3play abba.mp3") ? 19:57:46 funny? 19:57:59 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.17.146.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:41 no, quoted ;P 19:59:00 -!- mmc [n=mima@gw1.teleca.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:59:33 i dont think scheme plays mp3 20:00:02 dr scheme 20:00:34 no sound at all? 20:00:43 (beep) 20:00:49 perhaps 20:01:13 IronScheme supports beep with 0,1 or 2 parameters 20:01:19 leppie, either implement correct trigonometric approximations in software, or accept what the library and hardware give you. 20:02:46 ok thanks, for now I will just record it as a limitation 20:02:46 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 20:05:13 Hmm. Curiously, I see exactly the same i387 code in NetBSD's libm as in Mac OS X's libm. 20:05:56 So perhaps Mac OS X elsewhere has some SSE2/3 code that is not obvious. 20:07:34 Riastradh: did I misread the paste from mejja, then? That looked like it was normalizing its arguments to a 2pi interval. 20:07:40 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:57 Yes, but it still computes the wrong answer. 20:08:24 It's that exact reduction step that is broken on i387. 20:10:14 Riastradh: does this affect stuff like mod/remainder too? 20:10:21 Not for integral arguments. 20:10:46 i mean flaoting point 20:10:58 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:09 I don't know what other vagaries lie in Intel's i387 instruction bogosity. 20:11:25 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:11:41 ahh 20:11:50 The C2 condition code flag is used by the FPREM and FPREM1 instructions to indicate 20:11:50 an incomplete reduction (or partial remainder). 20:11:50 there is play-sound for wave-files under windows 20:12:07 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:12:11 that explains a lot more :) 20:12:13 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 20:13:00 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:13:01 silkarn: use SDL, it can play mp3s 20:13:08 leppie: You want FPREM1 btw, FPREM predates ieee and is "broken" 20:13:23 sdl? 20:13:27 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:37 (require sdl) 20:13:38 not found 20:13:45 http://www.libsdl.org/cgi/docwiki.cgi/FrontPage 20:14:00 it's not a PLT lib 20:14:18 but if you're going to write bindings anyway 20:14:19 nah, im just say, there are special conditions with the usage of those functions, which I assume is getting used by the .NET runtime 20:14:33 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:15:07 i need to know about them, because some of the results I have seen seemed strange 20:15:07 dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 20:16:30 kryptiskt_: I just want to play sounf in a game 20:16:42 nbeebo [n=nbeebo@217-210-198-227-no71.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 20:17:45 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:57 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:23:50 dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 20:24:57 -!- ThF [n=ThF@AAnnecy-158-1-29-55.w90-42.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 20:25:23 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:26:21 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:59 chupiq [i=182ed1f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-eb3c2b96a8ff7404] has joined #scheme 20:34:22 -!- jah [n=jah@217.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:36:25 dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has joined #scheme 20:39:13 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@host-64-179-113-99.col.choiceone.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:43:04 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:44:28 kryptiskt [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 20:52:27 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:16 hmm 20:54:18 lets say you have a game where there is a lot of shooting, how would you do the sounds for that? you'd have to have a thread for each sound right? and does that work or is it really hard to get right?does it sound like it happens at the same time? 20:54:39 -!- dlt____ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:43 do I have to sync the threads or the OS fixes swithcing behind them automatically? 20:54:50 -!- incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:58 you have to use sound hardware for that 20:55:17 silkarn: Did you look at popular media abstraction libraries like SDL? 20:55:25 I'd think they would handle that for you 20:55:28 most sound hardware supports 16 or more simultanious sounds 20:55:46 ok thanks ill look at it 20:55:50 In Scheme you'd use bindings for such a library 21:02:48 whats scheme about? 21:03:22 nbeebo, it's about fifty pages. 21:03:27 heh 21:03:44 KEKEKE MEhh..h.h..h.h....... 21:03:54 much less if you use a smaller font :) 21:04:12 Or monkey with the margins! I hear that's all the rage with students these days. 21:04:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:04:46 lol, i recall that tweaking in my university days :) 21:05:22 *sjamaan* goes "Ook, ook" 21:05:41 *gnomon* increments the value under the pointer 21:06:44 :) 21:07:00 ok srlzy, what is this channel about? lol 21:07:39 Follow the links in the topic and find out! 21:07:46 we are looking for a scheme to take over the world 21:07:52 nbeebo, this channel is about the algorithmic programming language Scheme... in all its incarnations, notwithstanding some strongly held opinions about that around here ;) 21:07:53 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:20 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:09:22 ok it isnt about geniuses trying to plan to take over the world and control it with a new world order? lol 21:09:42 but ok, bye 21:09:54 -!- nbeebo [n=nbeebo@217-210-198-227-no71.tbcn.telia.com] has left #scheme 21:10:08 All its incarnations? Even Guile? 21:10:33 *gnomon* shudders 21:10:37 Even TinyScheme. 21:10:39 Even SIOD. 21:10:43 Even SIOD? 21:10:49 Even SIOD. 21:10:49 Even IronScheme! 21:10:51 Wow. One love, y'all. 21:10:54 :p 21:10:59 Hedgehog Lisp! 21:11:04 Hell, if we talk about Arc... 21:11:33 wow, what ever happened to Arc? i never follow reddit anymore 21:11:47 uh, it had an accident 21:11:59 it is an ex-MzScheme overlay 21:12:00 The snark was a boojum, you see. 21:12:07 it forgot unicode support i recall :p 21:12:58 anyways, my first impression of Arc was a rather big anti-climax :\ 21:13:01 I never saw anything that was terribly enticing 21:13:12 so much hype 21:13:21 100 year language & what not 21:13:33 thts bc u cnt rd ths 21:13:34 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:51 there was a post once about various languages; Arc's was something like "it's a 100 year language, if you're willing to wait that long" or some such 21:13:56 Daemmerung: i did, but i had to read it twice to make sure :) 21:14:04 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:14:16 Clojure is exciting, Arc is not. 21:14:35 *gnomon* guffaws 21:14:51 leppie: u rd it 2ce? u cn us arc!! 21:15:11 err 21:15:18 line 0 21:15:19 I'm not sure about "exciting", but it's at least usable for something *now* 21:15:19 parseerror 21:15:35 chupiq: yes very usable 21:15:41 hence exciting 21:15:47 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:51 not revolutionary, but exciting 21:15:57 Like your mom. 21:16:02 If 'usable' is your only criterion for something to be exciting... 21:16:06 no 21:16:10 silkarn: we hold different notions of exciting then 21:16:13 Daemmerung, zing! 21:16:20 but it is superusable, makes me very productive and works with a huge plaform 21:16:59 it is exciting because it lets me progream cellphones in Lisp 21:16:59 mejjaa [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:17:08 I must say I prefer using it to do work in Java rather than groovy 21:17:13 it is exciting because it is very clean and more functional than scheme 21:17:52 i need to somehow swallow all these .NET guys in Scheme via IronScheme like Clojure does to Java 21:18:09 there is Clojure for the CLR/DLR... 21:18:24 *chupiq* hunts for link... 21:19:03 .net is funny, they seem to not grow close to other than the standard languages 21:19:12 even f# has not so much use 21:19:24 http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/54571c9b8f625dba?hl=en 21:19:26 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/ccnj64 21:19:28 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:35 Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has joined #scheme 21:19:52 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:19:59 tell that to the gentleman from flying frog... 21:21:21 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] 21:21:29 heck, if you were the only evangilist of a language, you would look like a mad man too :p 21:21:45 He does "his" language no favors. 21:22:26 I don't think you have to go all "Wise man in the desert" on people in order to get them to look at your one-off language 21:22:32 not that F# is a one-off 21:22:51 It's very easy to see one overenthusiastic fuckwit and dismiss the entire platform based on the amount of spittle and half-chewed food that he's spewing. 21:22:53 I mean, are we going to have to ban you when you finish IronScheme? :-P 21:22:58 He certainly does yell loudly, though. One could argue that he's doing as much damage to the cause of trivial raytracers as to the cause of MLish languages. 21:23:03 i dont care what he says, i have looked at the F# byte code and structures, it's very awesome what that compiler generates 21:23:37 *gnomon* <3's trivial raytracers 21:23:51 butthat still doesnt mean it will get popular 21:24:12 For MS's purposes, it doesn't need to get popular. 21:24:27 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 21:24:33 Actually, I'm still curious what the "purpose" of F# is 21:24:49 for my purposes, I just want to utilize their optimizing compiler :) 21:24:50 I mean, don't get me wrong the system is cool, but I'm curious why they chose to release that from MSR 21:25:41 "Chose to release"? 21:25:58 It's been going for a number of years now 21:26:00 well, it was a research project 21:26:06 I believe that the main developers simply managed to make a sufficiently strong internal case to Management. 21:26:09 yes, but so has Vault C & Sing# 21:26:17 but we've not seen those :-) 21:26:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:31 what you mean not seen those? 21:26:44 you can download both if I recall 21:26:56 right, from MSR, they're not "main stream" 21:27:38 oh, but research justifies spending money on high risk products :) 21:27:51 Dude, you're in #scheme. This is not the place to be making arguments based on what's "mainstream". 21:28:06 I guess 21:28:29 But, but, Scheme is *cool* now! 21:28:32 I don't thing Sing# and Vault C are as practical yet. 21:28:44 ok, I'll take that Arelius 21:28:56 What is interesting is OSLO framework thing 21:29:04 *M*? 21:29:12 that does look kind of cool 21:29:14 let me find an interesting link 21:29:16 F# is based on a language that has been proven to be very useful 21:29:46 sure, O'Caml is cool too, but Java has proven useful to some subset of the populace & J# is dead 21:30:27 The story of J# is the story of the marketing battle between Microsoft and Sun. 21:30:51 certainly 21:31:04 J++, the Microsoft Java crap, &c &c 21:31:08 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd129519(VS.85).aspx 21:31:10 but J# was never a full player 21:32:35 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:15 anyway, I've got to run. 'twas a pleasure 21:33:21 -!- chupiq [i=182ed1f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-eb3c2b96a8ff7404] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:33:44 ah: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd129869.aspx 21:34:58 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-12.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:35:35 it looks like a mixture of C#, and F# with syntax abstraction 21:38:14 -!- Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:20 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:43 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:53:11 bweaver_ [n=bweaver@c-68-60-17-78.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:56:29 -!- dlt_ [n=dlt@201.80.187.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:19 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:32 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-174-188.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:10 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:54 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:01:37 -!- silkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 22:02:45 Madars- [n=null@81.198.141.167] has joined #scheme 22:03:33 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 22:05:32 wingo-tp [n=wingo@230.Red-79-151-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:16 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-60-17-78.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:31 -!- bweaver_ is now known as bweaver 22:13:12 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-101-123.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:16:28 silkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:20:32 -!- Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:42 rockbiter [i=d109eda8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a7dbb89a55674c02] has joined #scheme 22:33:00 yo yo yo my lisping homies 22:33:23 Madars [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #scheme 22:35:10 scheming greets 22:35:43 jaked [n=jaked@71.175.42.169] has joined #scheme 22:36:03 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:45:58 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:46:26 Modius_ [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has joined #scheme 22:50:14 bitweiler [n=bitweile@adsl-69-154-33-68.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:17 -!- Madars- [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:25 evening #scheme 22:51:12 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.71] has joined #scheme 22:54:12 yo wingo bits 22:56:05 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-174-188.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:57:37 -!- jaked [n=jaked@71.175.42.169] has quit [""bored to hell""] 22:58:08 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-60-17-78.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:59:34 hi rockbiter 22:59:39 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-142-107.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:15 is a bitweiler like a rottweiler of bits? 23:00:25 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:35 **MONCH** 23:00:57 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-142-107.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:26 is a rockbiter like a biter of rocks? 23:02:37 ATREYU 23:03:59 we can't even wait for a racing snail! 23:12:36 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:15:39 -!- rockbiter [i=d109eda8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a7dbb89a55674c02] has quit ["mibbit.com: These look like big, strong hands..."] 23:16:57 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:18:16 *bitweiler* chuckles loudly 23:21:44 -!- dhess [n=user@bothawui.bothan.net] has quit ["bye!"] 23:31:16 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 23:32:37 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-120-245.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:32:37 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:32:56 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-120-245.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:00 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 23:36:03 -!- Qaexl [n=Akashakr@c-24-30-97-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:37:25 Qaexl [n=Akashakr@c-24-30-97-247.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:11 amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 23:42:18 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.71] has quit [] 23:42:55 anyone figured out SIGINT, SIGHUP, and breaks in plt? 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