00:00:49 ah 00:00:50 mzc.exe --exe main misc.scm 00:05:57 -!- harsha_v [n=harsha@drl042.wlan.sas.upenn.edu] has left #scheme 00:08:05 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host60-170-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:01 harsha_v_ [n=chatzill@drl042.wlan.sas.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 00:09:18 -!- harsha_v_ [n=chatzill@drl042.wlan.sas.upenn.edu] has left #scheme 00:10:53 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05511B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:45 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:12 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 00:20:40 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 00:25:39 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:25:56 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@68-184-239-20.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:25:56 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:32 pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 00:30:49 how can I do integer division in scheme? (div 5 2) -> 2 00:31:37 rudybot: eval (quotient 5 2) 00:31:38 Use QUOTIENT and REMAINDER. 00:31:43 mejja: error: with-limit: out of time 00:31:56 rudybot: o'rly? 00:31:57 mejja: ? 00:32:02 rudybot: eval (quotient 5 2) 00:32:04 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 00:32:04 Riastradh: ; Value: 2 00:32:25 rudybot: eval (quotient 5 2) 00:32:26 mejja: your sandbox is ready 00:32:26 mejja: ; Value: 2 00:34:10 are vectors arrays? ie random access? 00:34:40 how would I define define-macro in mit scheme? 00:35:09 Generally vectors are implemented so that VECTOR-REF runs in approximately constant time, or at least less than linear time. 00:35:13 meroonet (from LiSP 2nd ed) wants it (called define-meroonet-macro) 00:35:18 myrkraverk, you wouldn't; you would find a better way to solve the actual problem you have. 00:35:31 Riastradh, it's a library req I want to fulfill 00:35:49 So you have a buggy library? 00:36:03 What does your buggy library do? 00:36:05 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF02E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 00:36:27 To expand on what Riastradh said, myrkraverk, some few Scheme systems implement vectors with trees rather than flat arrays of cells, yielding roughly O(log N) access time rather than O(1). 00:36:42 *gnomon* cackles at Riastradh 00:36:48 I see you're in a fine mood this evening ;) 00:37:00 Riastradh, buggy? I don't know, it's a class lib for the programs in LiSP (2nd ed, the book) 00:37:19 myrkraverk: (define-syntax add (non-hygienic-macro-transformer (lambda (x y) `(+ ,x ,y)))) 00:37:29 where LiSP is principes d'implantation de scheme et lisp 00:37:36 Has your prof published any research involving Scheme? If not (and possibly even if so), it's buggy. 00:38:15 myrkraverk, how many abuses of DEFINE-MACRO occur in this library? 00:38:32 Riastradh, don't know, and I'd prefer not to find out ;-P 00:38:57 How dependent on the library is the book? One or the other -- DEFINE-MACRO or the library -- ought to go. 00:39:10 Riastradh, ;) 00:39:20 gnomon, was this for me? 00:40:02 Riastradh, I *may* be able to use meroon, if I find it (meroonet is (I believe) a cut down version of that class lib) 00:41:05 How far off is it from SOS ? 00:41:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5usbus 00:43:48 Riastradh, don't know yet 00:44:16 Riastradh, I'd prefer not to spend too much trouble on this, since I want to focus on the code from the book, not implementation details ;-P 00:44:23 myrkraverk, no, and I beg your pardon; I was answering pilkarn's question, not yours. Stupid eyestalks, pointing at the wrong line... 00:44:35 gnomon, np ;) 00:46:23 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:58 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 00:47:52 gnu! plt scheme fails on stript -S 00:47:59 that is, make 00:51:27 If i have 2 vars in the same let, cant the second one use the first one? 00:51:52 No. 00:51:55 pilkarn, no, you want let* (iirc) 00:52:07 Yes, LET* binds sequentially. LET does not. 00:53:06 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:58 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:54:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [""The problem with the world is fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves and wiser people are full of doubts. - Bertrand R] 00:57:16 ty 00:57:27 lately i have come to see the lisppower 00:57:39 if you want to esxtend C++ or Java it is not so easy 00:57:54 but adding OO to Scheme(which i dont want to btw) would be fairly easy 01:02:29 mejja, thank you, I'll see if I can use that to make a define-meroonet-macro 01:03:43 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:45 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:06:49 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 01:10:30 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:13:21 mariorz [n=mariorz@li10-58.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 01:13:57 can anyone share an average procedure that takes any number of arguments? 01:14:57 An average procedure? Gosh, along what spectrum are you putting procedures? I mean, does (LAMBDA X X) qualify as average, or is it too simple and unsophisticated? 01:16:13 ok then sir 01:16:25 a procedure that averages any number of arguments..? 01:16:56 Aha! Are you perhaps talking about arithmetic means? 01:17:00 he means a mean procedure. (LAMDA X (display "He doesn't like you. I don't like you either.") (newline)) 01:17:03 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 01:18:01 mariorz, can you write a procedure that computes the arithmetic mean of a list of numbers? 01:18:16 Riastradh: Perhaps. Chicken isn't really an optimizing compiler. But when you apply these optimizations, Chicken is faster than any other implementation for such cases. 01:18:34 No, it's not. 01:18:51 Riastradh: yeah, i understand the arguments are a list, im not sure how to access them as such 01:19:00 they are arent they? 01:19:02 Well, I tested against gambit, ikarus and larceny. 01:19:30 rudybot: eval ((lambda x x) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) 01:19:30 jsw-lap: your sandbox is ready 01:19:31 jsw-lap: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) 01:19:45 mariorz, forget about accepting multiple arguments for now; first solve the problem of computing the arithmetic mean of a list of numbers. 01:19:46 And it was significantly faster than all three. 01:20:40 cool ok i think i got it 01:20:49 so i can use (lambda x x) 01:21:00 mariorz: (define (average . x) (/ (apply + x) (length x))) works too 01:21:03 and also someone mentioned args in another channel whihc is more familiar 01:21:20 rudybot: eval ((lambda x (cadr x)) 1 2 3 4 5) 01:21:21 jsw-lap: ; Value: 2 01:21:45 (everything in fixnum mode) 01:22:19 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x . y) (car y)) 1 2 3 4 5) 01:22:19 Arelius: your sandbox is ready 01:22:20 Arelius: ; Value: 2 01:22:54 you probably want (lambda q body-of-procedure) rather than (lambda x x) as the latter is really not very useful... 01:23:31 foof, just curious: do you have the examples with which you were comparing the performance of Chicken against others? 01:23:41 Hang on... 01:23:49 -!- troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:19 Also, did you intend to compare generic arithmetic and generic vectors? 01:25:40 No, I just said "fixnum mode." 01:25:44 (Your LET-MACHINE macro is full of hygiene bugs, by the way -- many more names ought to be renamed.) 01:25:52 Oh, sorry, I missed that. 01:26:16 ... but just instinctively, when you can get the Chicken compiler to generate such code, it's basically as fast as C w/ some minimal overhead for manipulating tags. 01:27:28 what is the syntax of do? 01:27:29 I need to rename the lambda and the two letrec-syntax's. I originally didn't rename anything, because it was just an example, but decided to clean it up slightly before posting. 01:27:42 or how do i have multiple statements in an if? 01:27:42 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:29:10 (oh, and the two syntax-rules) 01:29:25 Use BEGIN, pilkarn. 01:29:27 r5rs begin 01:29:27 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_136 01:29:29 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/w4m4a 01:29:34 lisppaste: url 01:29:34 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 01:31:54 foof pasted "let-machine benchmark" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75614 01:32:34 For Chicken just compile with -O2. 01:32:53 *mejja* curses Intel 01:34:26 (the "unrolled" versions are macro-expanded versions, cleaned up slightly for use on impls w/o explicit renaming) 01:35:08 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:35:15 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-217.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:56 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:36:35 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 01:36:41 Does Chicken insert type and range checks? 01:37:03 Range checks, yes, though you can disable them. 01:37:20 In fixnum mode it elides typechecks. 01:37:36 I was not disabling range checks. 01:41:44 (`Unrolled' is the wrong word, by the way.) 01:42:02 It was late last night... 01:42:36 *arcfide* rubs his temples and palms his eyeballs. 01:42:50 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75616 <- how is my binary search function? 01:42:59 RDF . . . aaaaah . . . RDF . . . *sigh* 01:49:04 Anyway, I'm very, very careful about benchmarks. I don't throw around statements like "X is faster than Y" lightly, so I'd appreciate you not immediately responding "no it's not" without even checking yourself first. 01:49:41 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 01:51:27 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75616 <- how is my binary search function? 01:51:46 (well incorrect i noticed since i found a place where it fails) 01:51:48 If I use -O3 rather than -O2, Chicken runs the tag-dispatched loops slightly faster than MIT Scheme runs the usual loops. (The tag-dispatched loops are all slower than the usual loops in MIT Scheme.) 01:52:43 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:54:26 .oO( Does MIT Scheme still have the tiny heap limit? ) 01:55:44 More benchmarking? :-) 01:55:52 *arcfide* loves a good benchmark. 01:56:23 Riastradh annotated #75614 "comparing MIT Scheme and Chicken" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75614#1 01:57:29 foof: No. Simply use LiarC on a 64 bit machine. 01:57:44 And on 32-bit machines? 01:58:01 On 32-bit machines, the address space is limited to 26 bits. 01:58:11 On 64-bit machines, it is limited to 58 bits. 01:58:20 foof: Gee, it's 2009, not 1989... 01:58:53 mejja: And there still aren't many 64-bit notebooks. 01:59:57 Anyway, when I confidently said `No, it's not', I had something other than MIT Scheme in mind, but never mind that. 02:01:31 Riastradh: ? 02:04:36 foof, LIAR does generate decent code for the class of loops you discussed in your message to the Chicken mailing list. It won't do well with vectors of flonums, although the use of floating-vectors can help to mitigate that somewhat. 02:06:30 These are vectors of fixnums. 02:09:08 Hmmm... most of the apps I work with these days load large dictionaries and/or corpora into memory, quickly going over 100MB. A 64MB memory limit is unusable. 02:09:49 I know this test used vectors of fixnums; I mentioned vectors of flonums because they are more of a burden than vectors of fixnums. 02:10:53 Axioplase [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #scheme 02:11:26 OK. They're certainly more realistic for the example of matrix multiplication. 02:12:15 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:13:08 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75619 <- now it works, how can I improve it(can I)? does vectors have random access? 02:13:46 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 02:14:33 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:14:56 random access? 02:15:34 Yes, vectors support random access. You can improve that by (1) writing QUOTIENT and REMAINDER, not DIV and REM, (2) simplifying the termination condition, (3) joining the lines `((= guess' and `nbr)', and the lines `((< guess' and `nbr)', (3) moving the definition of BINARY-SEARCH-AUX into the LET, and passing it only the two arguments it needs. 02:15:39 (4), I mean. 02:21:52 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:01 foof, what is this you and Riastradh are discussing? 02:22:09 02:23:37 The right solution is for Chicken to do a little bit of closure analysis, and to be cleverer in generating C code for collections of mutually recursive procedures that fall into the class that foof described. 02:26:07 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:30:44 The claim was that this sort of code ... er ... modification, results in code in Chicken that is faster and better than other solutions or the results produced by other compilers? 02:31:12 It improves the code that Chicken generates. 02:32:24 how do you get the type of something? 02:32:31 What is `the type of something'? 02:32:54 if i wanted to implement multimethods or some sort of automatic-dispatch-on-type system, would I use macros? 02:33:10 Macros would probably make some of the notation more convenient. 02:33:20 They are not necessary, however, for anything you have described so far. 02:33:21 Riastradh: (type 1) -> Integer, (type "12") -> string 02:33:50 What about the type of 1.0? 02:33:52 and are such things generic programming? 02:33:53 rudybot: eval (integer? 1.0) 02:34:02 Riastradh: float? double? 02:34:04 Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of time 02:34:05 rudybot: eval (integer? 1.0) 02:34:06 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 02:34:07 Riastradh: ; Value: #t 02:34:23 Well, Scheme thinks that 1.0 is an integer. 02:35:14 rudybot: eval (exact? 1.0) 02:35:17 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:35:17 *offby1: ; Value: #f 02:35:52 -!- jsw-lap [n=jsw@cpe-75-187-46-126.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:36:38 whatever thats not the point 02:36:48 is there some way to ask for hatever they are 02:36:51 No, the point is that `type' is a very tricky term. 02:37:01 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:09 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:37:17 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:38:14 well it has a clear meaning in haskell 02:38:33 the thing is you know what i mean and could give an answer if you wanted to 02:38:39 higepon809 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 02:38:53 That's because Haskell has a restricted notion of type -- of course, Haskell also doesn't have a notion of asking an object's type at run-time, because you know beforehand the type of the object in any place where you are asking the question. 02:39:02 -!- higepon809 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:39:07 higepon357 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 02:42:19 Now, in Scheme, one could ask for a procedure that maps any object to a disjoint type predicate that the object satisfies. 02:42:43 There is no such procedure built-in to Scheme, however. 02:52:15 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:53:36 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:27 nasturtiums [i=4403670b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-607e1d0016edb19d] has joined #scheme 02:56:36 yoyoyo 02:56:38 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:50 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:53 Isn't Lisp more math than computer "science"? 02:56:56 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:58 benny` [n=benny@i577A0C1E.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 02:57:10 computer science is mathy. 02:57:29 scheme is pretty but doesn't necessarily bear relation to what's actually going on in the hardware 02:57:35 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:45 it seems to take place in a Platonic dimension of ideals 02:57:48 pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 02:57:57 nasturtiums: What goes on in the hardware? 02:58:08 bit-twiddling 02:58:20 anyone here use Clojure? 02:58:22 nasturtiums: LOGOR, baby. 02:58:38 Assembly languages can be pretty, but don't necessarily bear relation to what's actually going on in the silicon. 02:58:50 I think a famous Computer Scientist said something along the lines of computer science not really being a science, and not really being about computers. 02:58:56 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:59:00 hey Riastradh 02:59:43 i use clojure, it is awesome 02:59:48 After all, assembly languages don't have anything to say about voltage pulses or anything useful like those. There's a huge abstraction between the physical processes in the hardware and the programs described by assembly languages! 02:59:51 arcfide: Right, it's all about world of warcraft isn't it? 02:59:55 *arcfide* finds it annoying that a program should suddenly slow way down just because it reads from a bunch of files instead of one. 03:00:19 nasturtiums, I wanted to wait until the hype died down to look at it, but something induced me to take a look, which I promptly regretted as a waste of time. 03:00:45 "Clojure lacks tail recursion optimization and continuations. " 03:00:47 Riastradh: why? 03:01:30 nasturtiums: it has a loop-recur construct that does what you want. 03:01:56 pilk: what about continuations? 03:01:56 Clojure `solves' (i.e. posits as strawmen) plenty of easy problems without adding any new ways to express ideas clearly that were not already easy in existing Lisps. 03:02:17 Ria: but you get all the Java libraries, right? 03:02:39 Whoopie. 03:02:57 You get them in ABCL or in SISC already, which also provide more than half-baked novice language designs. 03:03:23 Ria: Ah 03:03:40 Ria: Well Clojure also has built-in STM 03:04:00 Ria: Guess that's macro-able? 03:04:17 I don't know enough about Clojure's STM to opine about it. 03:04:44 arcfide: Do you prefer Arc to straight scheme? 03:04:52 ... 03:04:53 Huh? 03:05:00 *arcfide* looks around. 03:05:04 Where did that come from? 03:05:12 *arcfide* gets all up in arms. 03:05:15 Arc is an even more laughable example of a half-baked novice language design, but I'd rather discuss more interesting subjects. 03:05:26 Do I *look* like an Arc "hacker" to you? 03:05:34 Yes 03:05:36 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:42 Arc-using chessplayer 03:05:44 Your nickname, arcfide. 03:05:45 Arc + FIDE 03:05:50 haha 03:05:52 ... 03:06:05 *arcfide* feels like he's back in the 2nd grade, being made fun of for his name. 03:06:12 Try changing it to `chezschemefide'. 03:06:31 well what do you expect, what if your name was like, JavaAnnaKournikova 03:06:34 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:41 mmm, cheezy Scheme 03:06:48 -!- arcfide is now known as Ch3zR00lz03 03:07:01 Better? 03:07:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75622 <- clojure-fib 03:07:26 Ch3zR00lz03: is your cheezy scheme Gouda? 03:07:36 -!- Ch3zR00lz03 is now known as arcfide 03:07:44 phew! 03:07:47 Adamant: no, it's sharp 03:07:50 Okay, enough of that. 03:07:58 Cheez# 03:08:11 Chez# 03:08:32 nasturtiums: I'm definitely no Arc user. Arc is short for Arctic, thankyouverymuch. 03:08:50 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 03:08:53 wots a fide? 03:08:54 What does everyone have against Paul Graham? 03:09:21 Riastradh: sure it is defineately not much knew concept-wise(although the concurrency stuff perhaps is while not original at least not featured in any other language by default) but it has a lot of very beautiful sutff, multimethods, geneicism, syntactic sugar for datastructures and access to the biggest(?) programming language library there is. 03:09:25 nasturtiums, he makes very tenuous leaps in logic and backs them up with anecdotes rather than evidence. 03:09:44 nasturtiums, I think what bothers most people here about him is his habit of relying on rhetoric rather than logic. 03:09:56 in #haskell: I searching for a computer language which stands for hundred years 03:10:12 think it's arc astroturfing? 03:10:15 nasturtiums: not even sure what continuatons are but i dont think clojure has them, but you get some of them by using java exceptions. 03:10:31 mechanical turking -- 60 cents for a good Arc review 03:10:31 nasturtiums, I think it's trolling. 03:10:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C77.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 03:12:55 gnomon: anything in particular that raised your hackles? 03:13:14 nasturtiums, do you recall me saying that I dislike Paul Graham? 03:13:46 gnomon: my memory banks are damaged. I'm just asking about the rhetoric 03:13:55 and tenuous leaps 03:15:03 See y'all later. 03:15:12 take it easy, arc 03:15:38 Jstick [n=e@c-76-19-197-119.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:15:40 Paul Graham has never, to my knowledge, demonstrated expertise in programming or in designing languages. Over the past eight years, he has mostly demonstrated mostly that he enjoys talking about easy or irrelevant problems and ignoring hard ones. For example, `How can we make (LAMBDA (X) (+ X 3)) conciser? I know: [(+ _ 3)]!' 03:16:21 what's x? 03:16:26 say x is 5 03:16:31 concise: 8 03:16:53 [(((8)))] 03:17:06 1000 03:17:14 What about ANSI Common Lisp? 03:17:16 his book 03:17:16 hey, dan king, are you available? 03:17:30 To be fair about my first sentence: I have paid little attention to him and his work. I am aware that he wrote the original Yahoo store, which was more a right-place-right-time matter than a programming feat, and that he wrote a book on how to write Lisp macros that few experienced Lisp programmers use. He may have other exploits of which I am unaware. 03:17:57 What bothers many is that he speaks with a tone of authority about the way that smart programmers think, as if he were the prototypical smart programmer. 03:18:31 I'm sure he is, as far as he's concerned. 03:19:18 So, this year Y Combinator wants one minute videos. Is that a little too... judging a book by its cover? 03:20:38 Remember, the problem of a vulture-capital firm is that it *must* lend money, even more so than a bank. 03:20:39 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=474089 03:20:57 pg: "We could do blind auditions if a startup had already launched, in the sense that we could just look at stats like their traffic growth. But at the stage we're trying to pick startups, we almost never have such data. So our situation is more analogous to trying to pick people who could become good musicians, before they'd taken any lessons. At our stage, you're judging the people-- so it's useful to see the people. 03:21:01 If it happens to find someone who can actually make good use of said money, so much the better. 03:22:03 -!- Jstick [n=e@c-76-19-197-119.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:22:40 The trick is to team-up with smart people. Graham did that. 03:23:11 Riastradh: Is it the book or the macros that few experienced Lisp programmers use? 03:23:23 Riastradh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris 03:23:39 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:23:46 jcowan, doesn't "vulture-capital firm" imply something more specific than "venture capital"? Or am I missing a joke? It's not my area of expertise. 03:24:02 gnomon: there's all vulture capital 03:24:12 just to differing degrees 03:24:20 *they're 03:24:31 I understand it to be a joke, and meant it to be a joke. I insinuate nothing about Y-C in particular. 03:24:47 like calling all users lusers independently of expertise 03:24:51 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:07 mejja: what about RTM? 03:26:28 He is the hacking powerhouse of the two of them. 03:26:56 Ah, OK - thanks. I'm humour-impaire right now due to sleep deprivation and a particularly aggro argument. 03:27:16 danger: aggro 03:27:37 Typing-impaired too, it seems. 03:27:37 mejja: how do you know? 03:33:43 jcowan, parse that sentence as you will. 03:37:33 i guess if you're already an experienced lisp programmer, you wouldn't really need any book on lisp 03:39:03 Oh, I don't know. There's plenty to learn still. 03:39:27 Riastradh: but comparing Clojure to Scheme not for how revolutionary they are/were but how productive it makes you, then I think Clojure is awesome. it is modern in a good way. 03:39:58 I must look at Clojure further: I was interested in it at first, but then I lost track of it. 03:41:59 jcowan: i saw a talk the clojure guy gave in boston 03:42:18 i think i'll look into using clojure if i need to write code that runs on the JVM 03:43:40 Well, of course when I get finished you can use ISLisp, too. 03:43:42 nasturtiums: Part Three: RTM. http://www.amazon.com/dp/0684818620/ 03:43:46 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@58.49.19.155] has joined #scheme 03:46:44 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.141.149] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:47:28 mejja: any actual code tho? 03:48:22 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:49:14 duncanm: well I like the fact that you get so many awesoem libraries for free from Java but dont actually have to write any Java code to use them 03:50:06 should (define (all pred coll) ...) return #t or #f for an empty list? and is there a all and any function already? 03:50:18 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 03:50:24 all should return true for an empty list 03:52:16 stdin::23197: any: use of 'any' outside of an arrow contract in: (any pred (cdr xs)) 03:52:27 what does that mean? not in tail position? 03:52:35 pilkarn: you're talking to scheme programmers, if schemers cared about libraries, scheme wouldn't be the way it is today 03:53:02 pilkarn: for lists, you can use SRFI-1 03:53:08 duncanm: ok i do. i like a language with a small core but with batteries included 03:53:13 there's ANY and EVERY defined there 03:53:21 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:53:23 and thats some thing i require? 03:53:32 pilkarn: depends on which scheme impl. you're using 03:53:44 should (any (lambda (x)(= x 5)) '()) return true? 03:54:21 No. 03:54:22 pilkarn: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#any 03:55:02 > (any (lambda (x) (= x 5)) '()) 03:55:03 but (aall (lambda (x)(= x 5)) '()) should? 03:55:04 #f 03:56:12 jsw-lap [n=jsw@cpe-75-187-46-126.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:57:27 "In the latter case, every returns the true value produced by its final application of pred." 03:57:33 i don't understand that 03:58:10 why should the final application of pred return a true value? 03:58:25 Otherwise EVERY returns #F. 03:58:43 ooh 03:58:50 right, heh 03:58:52 i get it now 03:59:01 pilkarn: to compile to byte code, use `mzc -k'. `mzc --exe' is basically creating a copy of mzscheme with the code inside it. 03:59:07 hey eli 03:59:21 duncanm: good morning. 04:00:38 myrkraverk: Are you on solaris? 04:02:16 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75624 , now is this binary search fine? I still dont get how to move the auxilary function into the let though and why that is better. 04:03:11 pilkarn: internal define and letrecs are the same 04:03:33 eli: compile to byte-code? java byteocde? 04:03:46 No, mzscheme bytecode. 04:03:47 duncanm: and letrecs are more idiomatic? 04:03:58 eli: and what is that good for? protability? 04:04:02 pilkarn: depends on your liking 04:04:34 pilkarn: It's much more convenient than an executable. 04:05:10 But that's also the reason I asked why you want to compile in the first place -- until you have a *lot* of code, there's no much difference. 04:05:35 Specifically, compiling to byte code is only going to make it load faster -- it won't change the speed of your code. 04:06:01 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 04:06:43 Unless you have to load that code frequently? like something rapidly loading and unloading byte-code plugins... no real practical application I guess. 04:08:36 pilkarn: this is a good post on letrec vs. internal defines: http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/comp.lang.scheme/msg01277.html 04:09:14 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@58.49.19.155] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:09:55 eli: I want to make 2d-shmup(shoot em up) and make it distributable, looking at possibilties, using haskell, using clojure+java2d or scheme+opengl. i could do in python as well but i want to do it in a functional language 04:09:59 to learn more 04:11:44 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.59.189] has joined #scheme 04:12:14 pilkarn: Then I suggest you focus your energy on writing the game now, not on irrelevant things like how to distribute it. 04:12:29 why is lsp so list-centric? list sucks for most things anyway, vectors are much better. 04:12:47 Why do you think Lisp is so list-centric? 04:13:12 eli: yes but i wanted to look into how easy it was also and how much work each language would be. scheme seems to have a simple opengl interface. haskell so far kind of too. 04:13:25 list-processor + all tutorial code using lists 04:13:27 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:26 pilkarn: If you're trying to compare languages like Scheme, Haskell, and Python based on how easy it is to do the packagin, then something is wrong. 04:14:42 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #scheme 04:15:07 Lisp is not an acronym; expanding it is not insightful. If your tutorials suggest using lists as if they were random-access vectors, perhaps you should find different tutorials, or look closer at why they are using lists. Vectors are unsuitable for persistent structures of flexible length. 04:16:32 eli: im not, i said among other things. mostly the opengl interfaces and how i like gameprogramming in each. secondly i have tried common lisp before and makign execs i never found out. 04:17:34 Replace "do the packaging" in what I said with "interface opengl" -- it's still the same statement. 04:18:20 eli: what are you teaching this semester? 04:18:26 im not comparing them in geenral, i compare on gmeprogramming 04:18:43 Riastradh: What do you mean by "persistent"? 04:18:51 CONS does not destroy its arguments. 04:19:02 duncanm: you have one guess. 04:19:16 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:19:24 eli: oh right, i heard from Drew 04:19:34 pilkarn: Yes, that's why I said that it is misguided. 04:20:02 pilkarn: There is no difference between "programming in general" and "game programming". 04:22:33 eli: there are in the available tools. im not grad student X hacking circles around Paul Graham. Im 16, with no formal training, trying to learn, I dont know how to do everything myself yet. 04:23:45 Ah, so "persistent" is opposed to "linear" here. 04:23:51 pilkarn: I don't know how you got Paul Graham into this context. What I said is just what I said: when you're comparing languages you should not be comparing the libraries that happen to come with them. 04:24:20 ok so imt rying to find the easiest environemnt to do game sin then 04:24:23 pilkarn: Same goes for your age -- what I said does not depend on how old you are or what you know. 04:24:35 can I convert a list to a vector? 04:24:50 rudybot: doc list->vector 04:24:52 eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm" sandbox is ready 04:24:53 eli: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/vectors.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._list-~3evector)) 04:24:55 list->vector? 04:25:57 pilkarn: It would be good to focus instead on *how to program* first, not on how to program *games*. 04:27:06 ithink [n=denise@EASTCAMPUS-FOUR-NINETY-THREE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:30:11 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 04:34:08 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #scheme 04:34:32 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:34:55 pilkarn: yes, the choice of platform makes a difference if you want to ship something, of course 04:35:10 eli: which is kind of distressing, given how many very smart programmers I know who started out writing little games 04:35:21 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Client Quit] 04:35:29 obviously libraries matter 04:35:32 but writing a plausible game was easier in the 80s 04:35:41 when you're trying to get stuff done 04:37:05 Python + game library support... Pygame or pyglet 04:37:28 saccade: I didn't say that writing a game was not a good way for learning how to program -- but making that the focus of what you do (for example, reaching a conclusion that Haskell is great because it happens to have a great opengl interface and that Common Lisp is poor because it's difficult to deliver an executable) is bad. 04:37:45 eli: why is that bad? 04:38:19 nasturtiums: well, if I wanted to write a little game that didn't need any meaningful AI then I'd probably use flash 04:38:32 because most of the boring stuff would already be there 04:38:46 (then I'd probably try to add some AI and end up clawing my eyes out) 04:39:04 saccade: isn't Flash programming JS ? 04:39:06 saccade: ActionScript is like JavaScript, right? 04:39:07 ActionScript 04:39:31 It's a close relative, yes. 04:39:45 not a great language for building interesting abstractions 04:40:33 http://www.crockford.com/javascript/javascript.html 04:41:04 nasturtiums: To sharpen saccade's point -- I think that it's pretty safe to bet that in such a world Visual Basic would be one of the best languages. 04:41:14 http://www.crockford.com/javascript/little.html 04:41:53 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:42:50 eli: except that no one I know is eager to download and install a game anymore -- if it doesn't run in firefox it doesn't get played 04:43:33 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-75-51-177-72.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 04:44:00 eli: http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Manuel.Serrano/publi/jot04/jot04.html 04:44:01 saccade: True, but *publishing* a game should not be a major point either... 04:44:05 anyway, my point was more that when I was a kid it was a more reasonable goal to make a game that was recognizably the same kind of thing that you might not write yourself 04:44:07 scheme on .NET 04:44:16 which is hard if you're used to like quake or something 04:44:24 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #scheme 04:44:44 oh, or spore 04:44:51 nasturtiums: Is there any meaning behind pointing me at that url? 04:45:13 eli: presumably you suggest VB for the CLR support 04:45:19 Javascript doesn't do syntactic abstraction, but its object model is both interesting and flexible. 04:45:21 *snicker* 04:45:21 but there are plenty of other CLR languages 04:45:32 so you can make use of all those libraries 04:45:34 nasturtiums: No, I was talking about VB the language. 04:45:44 jcowan: oh? I didn't know that. 04:45:50 what about the language 04:46:01 jcowan: flexible maybe, but how is it interesting? 04:46:07 The language would be ... oh, what's the point. 04:46:22 It's a prototype-based object model, indeed, the most widely used such. 04:46:24 silkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 04:46:53 eli: don't give up hope 04:47:12 try like trancendental meditation or beer or something 04:47:35 i must be getting old, when VB is mentioned, i still think VB6 and not VB.Net 04:47:39 saccade: I'm tempted to say "I'm too old for this shit" -- except that it's a reference to a really bad series of movies. 04:47:45 haha 04:47:55 nasturtiums: exactly what I am doing with IronScheme :) A little MVC web framework too about 400 lines of Scheme, but using the underlying ASP.NET stuff :) 04:48:09 leppie: there you go! 04:48:32 eh, they were good at being the kind of movies they were 04:48:42 duncanm: I must be getting old -- when I say VB, I mostly think about Qbasic as the *new* butchering of the language. 04:48:50 with lisp/scheme on top of JVM/.NET... suddenly you get all these libraries for free 04:49:02 mind you, I have worked on .NET for 7 years, so all this stuff is pretty basic, and I like having it avaiable 04:49:22 but I suspect that you and I both are usually too old for that kind of shit 04:49:38 eli: heh 04:50:00 :) 04:50:45 saccade: what shouldnt he give up hope on? 04:51:06 I tend to get tired faster from language wars. Python has a really great opengl interface -- be my guess -- go hack python, and I won't even blink. 04:51:13 "JavaScript has much in common with Scheme. It is a dynamic language. It has a flexible datatype (arrays) that can easily simulate s-expressions. And most importantly, functions are lambdas. 04:51:13 Because of this deep similarity, all of the functions in The Little Schemer can be written in JavaScript. The syntaxes of these two languages are very different, so some transformation rules are needed." 04:51:32 silkarn: "The previous generation is to the next one as angels are to men; the next generation is to the previous one as donkeys are to men." 04:52:08 or the other way around 04:52:28 at least if you listen to the old ones 04:52:32 i like donkeys 04:52:38 anyone have a ladder 04:52:46 jcowan: The similarity was more important a number of years ago; these days I don't think that there's anyone surprised at a language that has lexical scope and first-class-functions. 04:52:53 in my country, we say a horse is like a man... 04:53:46 In my culture, there is a saying that goes like: 04:53:55 "In my culture, there is a saying that goes like ..." 04:54:13 Had more luck with your sgl interface eli than I ever did with python's OpenGL. python has a comprehensive SQL ORM though, and support for GLADE. Those are two big strengths python has over any scheme that I can think... 04:54:19 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:54:50 synx: what trouble did you have with pyOpenGL? 04:54:55 It's largely just library support though. 04:55:18 nasturtiums: mostly my trouble was with python sucking and out of control memory munching :/ 04:55:19 synx: Yes, that was point, before it fell under the sofa. 04:55:34 point? 04:55:47 s/was point/was my point/ 04:55:57 Oh. 04:56:33 synx: any more specific than "sucking"? as for memory, i had a similar problem; turned out to be not clearing up references, so my textures weren't getting GC'ed after uploading 04:57:14 (eli) "Python has a really great opengl interface" ...= plt-scheme has a really great opengl interface? 04:57:21 any good examples of sgl? 04:57:30 the example i foudn doesnt even launcg anything 04:57:44 synx: s/guess/guest/ in that one. 04:58:15 how do I make a namespace or module name? 04:58:53 synx: IOW, if that's anyone's reason to program in Python, then I'm not going to fight them. 04:59:31 nasturtiums: python's yield is a still useful, but insufficient way to implement lazy logic. Also python's blocks are not expressions. Finally python's leaky interface to its byte code makes it extremely insecure for running user code, hard to keep modular. 04:59:33 also about clojure: all datatstructures are immutable by default ad always return the updated one if you d somehting to it, it all feels very well htought through, clojure is more functional than scheme 05:00:15 synx: yes, no sandboxing --- unless you check out rPython, used by PyPy... they can sandbox a whole interpreter now 05:00:27 -!- troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:00:46 eh, pypy... 05:01:04 rudybot: slap everyone. 05:01:06 eli: ? 05:01:12 I wonder if python should be a convenient syntax in which to write scheme programs. 05:01:37 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/sgl/main.html , is the first example supposed to something? nothing happens when i run it. 05:01:45 that would be fun, writing the syntax-rules to look like python heh... 05:01:50 also do i need to install opengl separately or it comes with windows? 05:02:22 also, if I want shorthand-syntax for vectors, would i use macros for that? 05:03:13 silkarn: No, no, and possibly but better to avoid them. 05:04:05 silkarn: You still need to wrap that code in a graphics loop. That's just the innermost part... it does look like a poor example admittedly. 05:04:48 ly 05:04:54 oops 05:05:07 im a total noob to opengl, do you have a simple working example? 05:05:44 maybe... 05:05:46 is anyone here working on a start-up 05:06:03 and if so, any opinions on the seed stage investor programs 05:06:18 nasturtiums: yes game startup, in the super early phase, getting some lines o the screen :) 05:06:47 I have a rather low opinion of investors in general. 05:10:16 synx: well you can bootstrap 05:10:24 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176219000.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:10:30 i mean reddit can be cloned in like... a weekend 05:11:29 Guess so. 05:11:30 well, take care schemers... i love you all 05:11:46 Eekdacat [i=Eekdacat@cpe-74-70-17-167.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:11:46 if we lived in Canada, i would make you my bride(s) 05:11:51 -!- nasturtiums [i=4403670b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-607e1d0016edb19d] has left #scheme 05:12:24 *jcowan* does not think he has the right equipment to be a bride 05:12:34 unlike, say, the Duke of Normandy 05:13:07 silkarn: https://synx.us.to/code/games/isometric/test_texture.ss 05:13:18 That's a working example... don't know how simple it is. 05:13:52 http://www.yukoncollege.yk.ca/~ttopper/COMP228/SchemeBSTs.html <- is that guy correct or clueless? sure functional programming si a subset of imperative, but still 05:13:54 Notice how I do all the sgl calls inside "with-gl-context" itself inside the "on-paint" member of the scheme/gui canvas. 05:14:04 synx: thanks a lot 05:14:35 or? Secure Connection Failed 05:14:51 Stick it to the man. Click "Add Exception" 05:14:52 Clueless, silkarn. 05:15:25 -!- kryptiskt [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:16:01 i got a virusd 05:16:19 Not entirely clueless, but neither so full of competence that it oozes out the ears. 05:16:30 Riastradh: yeah asshole im clueless, that why im here TRYING to learn 05:16:48 I ain't gonna pay Verisign one plugged nickel, sorry if it's inconvenient for you. 05:17:53 http://synx.us.to/cert.crt may help ameliorate the process :> 05:18:02 ... 05:18:10 Apologies, silkarn, if, by describing the author of that web page as clueless, I suggested that you were not trying to learn. I understood your question to be of whether you could derive correct or useful information from that web page. 05:18:48 I swear it was working before. damn... 05:19:11 Oh duh 05:19:34 Riastradh: i thought you said it to me. why would synx be clueless? 05:19:39 Okay, my website isn't in deb0g mode. 05:19:50 silkarn, you asked: `is that guy correct or clueless?' I answered: `Clueless, silkarn.' 05:20:06 you know something is wrong when someone's writing scheme code, but indents the parens in C-style 05:20:16 well, something's not right 05:21:24 for the record, I am pretty clueless... 05:21:39 http://synx.us.to/cert.crt works now 05:21:44 The indentation style suggests that the author has never read idiomatic Scheme code. The camelCase suggests that the author has never even encountered references to idiomatic names in Scheme. The acronym `R5RALS', while strictly speaking correct, suggests that the author has never conversed with a knowledgeable Scheme programmer about the document. Comments in Scheme, by the way, begin with semicolons, not with backslashes. 05:21:59 *synx* grumbles something about authoritarians 05:22:12 Riastradh: Oh, I'm sorry then, my mistake. 05:22:46 Riastradh: when i took Clinger's compiler class, he had us write Scheme code in camelCase 05:22:46 I apologize, silkarn -- I ought to have answered your question more clearly. 05:23:02 duncanm, that's because a good deal of it was translated possibly automatically from Java, I imagine. 05:23:12 The guy's last paragraph seems sensible at least. 05:23:22 Riastradh: yeah, that's what i was gonna say 05:23:33 god damn it 05:23:36 you are all evil people 05:23:39 you know that? 05:23:40 the resulting code looked quite odd 05:23:47 every time I program in any other language 05:23:49 imperative uses mutable data and functions to mutate it. Functional uses immutable data and passes modifications around by argument. 05:23:55 I find myself imagining what it would look like in scheme 05:23:56 Elly: give in to the dark side! :o 05:24:10 it feels like I'm cheating...on my other programming languages. 05:24:49 well, except haskell 05:24:52 Immense red flag: 05:24:56 with their sexy pattern matches and monads... 05:25:00 `Automatic memory management via reference counted garbage collection.' 05:25:09 one language is not much different from another. I look at scheme and think how I'd do it in python or C... which usually ends up tripping me up. 05:26:26 If you really really need to pass by reference, wrt silkarn's "guy", boxes work great. 05:26:41 do you guys make money programming scheme? 05:26:55 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176217158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:03 silkarn: depends on what you mean. 05:27:20 I don't make money programming anything... 05:27:21 no one but me would directly notice if I didn't 05:27:38 lol 05:28:05 but scheme is a really useful tool of thought for me 05:28:27 and my thoughts are what I get paid for, so... 05:29:29 What do you do? 05:34:28 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-213.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 05:36:15 -!- higepon357 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:31 what do you do, silkarn? 05:37:02 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:14 synx: go to gymnasium 05:37:22 (senior high school i think) 05:37:26 16 05:37:30 natural sciences 05:37:39 I mean to get money, not to spend it. 05:37:50 ask my parents? pick potatoes 05:38:17 learning java so i can program android -> make game -> get rich :) 05:38:37 or maybe the first person ever making a successful pc-game in scheme, who knows 05:38:46 an android that can make games would be awesome 05:39:08 yay, games 05:39:13 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:39:16 what kind of game ideas do you have? 05:40:42 silkarn: Jak and Daxter was in a schemish language. 05:41:06 synx: and it's hardly the ideas, ideas are a dime a dozen. 05:42:49 synx: well fist i want to make a typical 2d-shmup(you know sidescrolling 2d-game game where you steer a spaceship and shoot stuff) to learn. then I have some ideas for 3d games. but that is far in the future. 05:42:54 what's the function to generate a random number between min and max 05:42:57 Arelius: Cave Story was simple 2D physics basic attraction A.I. and find-the-switch puzzles. Ideas make the whole game! 05:43:30 I made an Arkanoid once... was a lot less satisfying than I thought it'd be. 05:43:39 er, Asteroids not Arkanoid 05:43:46 i like single-player role-playing games but they take to long to play. i want to make games 5-10hours long, branching storylines. i wont go more into detail now 05:44:21 synx: Cave Story? 05:44:51 Arelius: best game evar :3 05:44:56 What do you get when you cross an owl with a bungee cord? 05:45:03 synx: and I doubt that a bit. 05:45:20 eli: a hootcord? 05:45:22 eli: bouncing hooters? 05:45:23 synx: if you think all languages are pretty similar, you need to learn Prolog. 05:45:50 jcowan: takes 5 min to implement in scheme 05:45:55 jcowan: I bet you could emulate Prolog on a Turing machine. 05:46:18 or a little more but isnt prolog best seen a s a subset of lisp or functional programming in general? 05:46:19 ... 05:46:25 silkarn: No. 05:46:53 And yes, of course you could emulate Prolog on a Turing machine, or any other programming language. 05:46:57 eli: give 05:47:03 Indeed, we implement them on subsets of Turing machines called "computers". 05:47:17 subsets? 05:47:33 equivalent mechanisms 05:47:39 I give up eli. 05:48:10 saccade: a computer is not a full turning machine 05:48:20 [That wasn't meant to be a joke, it's a reference to a movie.] 05:48:20 saccade: it'd require infinite memory for that. 05:48:30 saccade: Turing machines are considered either infinitely fast or infinitely patient, so people consider them a superset of computers, which can be neither... 05:48:37 *sigh* 05:48:42 Oh right and infinitely large. 05:48:46 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:49:03 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberry :S"] 05:49:06 -!- Eekdacat [i=Eekdacat@cpe-74-70-17-167.nycap.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 05:49:14 levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 05:51:54 Anyways, the point was that using Prolog is little like most other programming languages, not that it wasn't computationally compatible. 05:52:43 what is the proper way to namespace modules? should there be a name on top of each file? 05:52:47 When I compare languages I pretty much ask "How do I compute X in language Y, and language Z?" learning both methods you usually end up doing the same thing. 05:52:57 silkarn: which scheme are you using? 05:53:07 drscheme the default 05:53:17 In my opinion, modules should not depend on being contained in files at all, or of a certain name. 05:53:35 silkarn: then you should learn how to write modules in PLT Scheme, and not just Scheme 05:54:12 silkarn: In that scheme, you use / as a namespace separator, and local interdependancies you put in quotes... pretty simple on the surface. 05:55:09 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/module-basics.html -- maybe this is the page to read? 05:56:13 peddie [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:00:20 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Bailing out"] 06:00:26 that looks about right duncanm 06:02:00 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [Network is unreachable] 06:02:01 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 06:02:14 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:03:23 -!- silkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:05:57 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-217.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:08:09 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 06:10:28 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:10:37 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 06:16:39 underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet126-021.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:17:29 It just kills me that the lambdamoo language does not have lambda. 06:18:21 peter_12_ [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:18:41 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 06:25:00 -!- incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:28:20 does it have moo at least? 06:30:11 incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 06:30:13 Can anyone recommend a book about about building a JIT VM in C for a Lisp-like language? (tall order I know) 06:32:10 Lisp in Small Pieces is the closest I know of. 06:32:32 levi: that is more Lisp in Lisp, isn't it? 06:32:39 Probably. 06:33:09 Why do you want to write a JIT VM in C for a Lisp? 06:34:02 levi: I don't know that I want to. I'd definitely like to read a book about it 06:34:03 Ch 10 of Lisp in Small Pieces includes a Scheme->C compiler with a C runtime. 06:34:42 levi: that sounds like part of the puzzle 06:35:01 Axioplase: ehe 06:35:16 Probably you can get the information you want via two books, one on compiling Lisp and one on implementing a JIT VM in C. 06:35:21 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:30 In lambdamoo's script, { begins a list, but there is no terminator. So you make lists like {2, 3, 4 06:36:03 levi: any recommendation for the latter? 06:36:06 That doesn't sound like the MOO script I used to use. 06:36:25 peter_12_: Sorry, I've heard of some, but I don't recall the names. 06:37:22 levi: Well mark me if I'm wrong, but... http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ivan/moo/lm_toc.html 06:37:25 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-153.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:37:54 peter_12_: Unless things have changed recently, it may be the sort of thing you can learn more about from research papers and code than books right now. 06:38:12 levi: true 06:40:09 synx: I suspect some sort of markup fail there. I'm pretty sure when I wrote MOO code the lists were all terminated with a matching }. But it's been a while and my memory may be failing me. 06:42:01 gads I hope so levi. 06:42:42 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:44:39 Yes, if you look at the texinfo source, you can see closing curly braces. 06:45:06 I don't know texinfo very well, so I'm not sure where in the process they got munched. 06:45:30 MOO is kind of a lame language, but it's not *that* lame. 06:48:38 haha that's a relief. 06:48:41 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 06:48:49 MOOcode still does not support lambda though, lame! 06:50:27 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:51:21 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@nat/uwaterloo/x-634453b39eb8adc3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:52:22 jsw-lap1 [n=jsw@cpe-75-187-46-126.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:52:29 -!- jsw-lap [n=jsw@cpe-75-187-46-126.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:53:12 now all I need to do is figure how to concatenate two strings... 06:54:03 which is obviously done by mutating one of the strings via the slice array syntax. totally sensible of course. 07:04:46 dhess [n=user@bothawui.bothan.net] has joined #scheme 07:05:07 -!- underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet126-021.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:05:54 underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet126-021.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:07:00 higepon645 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 07:09:12 synx: What are you doing with MOO? 07:09:43 I'm trying to make a verb that will move the player from one room to another. 07:10:00 ...but really I'm just wishing this were a scheme based language. 07:12:19 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:12:48 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:13:08 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read 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closed the connection] 07:49:54 eli, yes 07:51:17 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:51:35 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 07:51:44 myrkraverk: Use the gnu strip then. 07:52:02 eli, I did, thanks 07:53:45 peter_12_: I don't figure a scheme->C compiler is what you want if you want a Scheme JIT 07:54:12 As C isn't a great JIT language. 07:54:39 Arelius: I think I'm going to read the Lua code for a while 07:57:46 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:57:58 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:07:42 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:10:41 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:15:20 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote 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[n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:25:20 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:57 rotty, ah, I see. Sorry to hear about that frustration! 15:41:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-65-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 15:45:06 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.156.202] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:47 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #scheme 15:57:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:59:05 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:59:31 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 16:01:44 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:55 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-65-79.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:46 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@CMU-221270.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:11:25 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 16:12:03 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:45 pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 16:14:58 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFD8DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:17 tonyg [n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:32 -!- peddie [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:27:02 mast^ [n=mast@89-97-35-78.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 16:27:07 -!- mast^ [n=mast@89-97-35-78.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has left #scheme 16:27:59 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:44 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 16:33:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:41 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:35:51 -!- voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["bando_de_atoa"] 16:37:15 arcfide [n=arcfide@iub-vpn-205-53.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 16:39:45 hey arcfide 16:39:58 Hey leppie, how is it going? 16:40:24 besides working with a clown, I guess, ok :) 16:40:59 Clown? 16:41:15 my team 'leader' is the 2nd most useless developer I have ever seen, and he thinks he an architect... 16:41:21 coocoo coocoo 16:41:23 :) 16:44:13 his contribution in terms of lines of written code for the 9 months he has been on the project is pushing 50 lines of code perhaps (im exclusing any generated code, and that's just point and click, and doesnt count) 16:47:08 I hate people like that 16:47:20 like me or him ? :p 16:47:20 Full of clever words and promises, so the management think they rock, but you do all the good work. 16:47:24 him ;-) 16:47:26 I worked for one once 16:47:33 We called him "The Muppet" 16:47:41 As in, "Oh God, what's The Muppet gone and done now?" 16:47:59 I rememember when we were struggling to meet a big deadline, he spent a week making the BEST FILE UPLOAD PROGRESS DIALOG EVER 16:48:06 yeah i have writtem all the code for the project excluding his 50 lines of pretty much useless code, it can be done in 10 or lines, its a simple call to a web service 16:48:15 i bet he feels proud 16:48:19 He did 16:48:52 Poor leppie 16:49:17 Is this a "Do Scheme at home but write PHP at work all day and hate it" kind of situation? 16:49:33 alaricsp: if this guy actually did any work towards us meeting our deadline I would be surprised. I had to have a meeting with the mamanger to get him to stop changing the DB schema 16:49:56 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-106-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 16:50:01 No I work with C#/.NET, I like it, I just dont like coding for dumb shits 16:50:06 Mmmm, schema changes late in a project :-) 16:50:31 his plan, I have to grasp and implement it, and then explain it to him... 16:50:43 I've never done C#, myself; never been involved in the MS world much 16:50:52 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 16:50:55 Heh, we used to have these big weekly company meetings 16:51:02 he has a 15 table structure for a tree, FGS, you need a single table... 16:51:08 And the sales staff would say "We'd like feature X, as people are asking for it" 16:51:10 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:16 And all heads would turn to him, Product Directory 16:51:18 Director, rather 16:51:20 And he'd say: 16:51:34 "Waffle waffle jargon waffle waffle EJB container waffle waffle XML waffle waffle" 16:51:38 And everyone would look at each other 16:51:52 And the CEO would say "Did anyone understand that?" 16:52:00 And me or the other code would raise our hands 16:52:03 And we'd be asked to explain 16:52:12 And our answer would be, like "Yeah, we could do that in five days" 16:52:33 sounds familiar... and I feel like embarressed then, being lead by an incompetent 16:52:58 I used to feel nervous about showing my boss up, too. Not always a wise move, but his boss asked the question, so... 16:53:02 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFD8DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:13 funny thing is, I suspect today he went for a job interview 16:54:17 when the team lead speaks, I pretend not to listen, because I just want to clean his mouth with my fist of all the BS coming out 16:54:58 well when is speaking to say our manager in a meeting 16:55:04 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFD8DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:55:38 X-Scale, sorry, there were some changes a while ago to the time & date parser that made it reject XML-RPC's stupid obnoxious broken date format, and I haven't yet found the occasion to work around the brain damage in XML-RPC. 16:56:31 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@host217-42-178-216.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 16:59:13 what I love about IRC :) 17:04:03 easy date formats? 17:05:26 easy dates ;) 17:05:33 Hey offby1, what are you doing Friday? 17:05:56 probably working, then coming home and drinking alcohol, like most weekdays. Why? 17:06:05 I'mmarried, you knwo 17:06:15 although there are some movies I'd like to see ... 17:06:17 Do you swing? 17:06:17 *offby1* ponders 17:06:22 why yes; yes, I do. 17:06:33 I'm partial to Glenn Miller 17:06:49 Damn, you beat me to the Glenn Miller joke :/ 17:06:53 heh 17:06:56 great minds etc. 17:07:17 actually I no longer swing, since I became a grownup, and moved from the house that had a swing set in the back yard. 17:08:48 I still dont get how to use require for my own modules. does requrie look thrugh all files ina dir until it find sthe moduel? 17:08:58 or do i supply a path as the modu name? 17:09:53 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:38 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:16:56 rsdy [n=rsdy@catv-89-134-39-84.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 17:18:47 helo 17:18:55 how do I convert to double or float from fractional? 17:19:30 (exact->inexact ratnum) 17:20:39 http://www.paste-it.com/view/94515170 << why is the while loops in this code run only once? 17:20:45 *are 17:21:21 I really, really don't want to read that code. 17:21:27 The formatting is heinous. 17:21:41 well, how should a code look like? 17:21:56 thinner :) 17:22:00 oh 17:22:19 and learn what let does :) 17:22:33 i didn't felt the need for let 17:22:38 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 17:22:43 should i substitute define's with lets? 17:22:45 rsdy, a good start is http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt 17:22:47 it's much cleaner 17:22:53 no, you just need 1 let 17:22:53 oh 17:23:09 yep, that's what i meant:D 17:23:27 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:52 perhaps you need to reset y... 17:24:09 i'm sorrry, but i am completely noob to scheme 17:24:20 this is my first script 17:24:24 this is not a scheme error, it seems like a logical error 17:25:03 rsdy, your code formatting makes it look like you're familiar with at least one other programming language, though. 17:25:06 what do you mean by reset? 17:25:27 i suspect you need a (set! y Ydistance) just before (set! x (+ x (* Xdistance 2))) 17:25:45 gnomon, i know languages that have c-style syntax 17:26:03 rsdy, ok. Have you read any Scheme programs before? 17:26:04 why is that? 17:26:36 gnomon, exactly one script, which was like as long as this one 17:27:02 leppie, why do i have to reset it? i want to understand what i'm doing wrong 17:27:05 well you will have the same problem in C, you are trying to do nested whiles 17:27:18 unless that is intended 17:27:32 it is 17:27:35 i dont know gimp 17:28:04 i need the nested whiles here, i think 17:28:09 rsdy, ok - then I won't be too harsh. I really do recommend that you read up a little bit on how s-expression code usually looks. Most Lisp and Scheme coders pay more attention to formatting and indentation than to parentheses, and when the code is laid out incorrectly or unintuitively, it becomes very annoying and difficult to read; this makes it difficult to ask for help. 17:28:33 That's meant to be helpful advice, by the way, not criticism. 17:29:04 gnomon, thanks, i'll keep that in mind in the future 17:29:41 but think about a for loop that is nested, the inner variable get reset on each iteration of the outer loop 17:30:05 why would it? 17:30:24 im not saying it is the problem 17:30:27 i set the initial value of the variable outside the loop 17:30:47 yeah 17:30:50 you're right 17:30:51 :D 17:31:05 but on each iteration, y still stays > h, so it never runs again 17:31:19 yeah, thanks 17:31:21 :) 17:31:25 :D 17:31:32 *leppie* pats himself on the back for a good hunch 17:31:39 but the same stands for the loop in the upper function 17:31:47 it only loops once 17:32:11 where there are no nested loops 17:32:11 well maybe you just have 1 layer :) 17:32:17 nope 17:32:20 i've got 3 17:32:21 :D 17:32:36 ok 17:32:54 maybe the layerIds should be (cdr layers) 17:33:03 or no 17:33:19 i'll check it 17:33:24 i think you are just reading that wrong 17:33:47 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:33:47 -!- dudrenov [n=user@c-69-181-124-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:37:10 wow, so that loop works now! 17:37:11 :D 17:37:15 thank you very much! 17:37:20 no problem 17:37:22 :) 17:38:30 man that is almost a direct translation from C code into GIMP Scheme, I just visualized as C 17:39:16 uhm, my code? 17:39:17 :D 17:39:56 all of the g* stuff follows an object-oriented approach 17:40:00 in C as well 17:40:00 yeah, dont worry, it will come :) 17:40:11 this kind-of stands for the scheme interface as well 17:40:29 Is it GIMP that uses something that superficially resembles Scheme, but really isn't? Or am I thinking of some other app? 17:40:32 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:40:46 its foo-script i think 17:40:54 gimp uses a subset of scheme 17:40:55 not sure either 17:41:04 but i already fear it :) 17:41:30 afaik 17:42:09 offby1: maybe thinking of emacs? ;P 17:42:26 emacs is lisp, isn't it? 17:44:33 new gimp uses something similar to tinyscheme. old gimp uses a weird schemey script. really old gimp used guile (i think). 17:45:03 is there some intendation mode that does 4hars for lisp/scheme instead of 2? i think 2 is to little 17:45:15 by 'new' i mean in cvs, not necessarily in the released versions yet. 17:45:28 pilkarn: i use 4 too. :) 17:45:29 offby1: Possibly you mean sawfish 17:45:33 for the same reason. 17:46:10 Gimp always used something that called itself Scheme 17:46:23 But maybe SIOD qualifies :) 17:48:37 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A1963.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:49:31 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 17:51:39 jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.233] has joined #scheme 17:51:46 is there an easier way btw to check inequality of two ints? 17:52:34 (define (not=? a b) (not (= a b))) 17:53:16 haha 17:53:18 ok 17:53:19 thanks 17:53:30 (i didn't even know that one exists) 17:54:01 you are not doing so bad for someone that havent read the docs :) 17:54:28 i was googling all afternoon after structures like this 17:54:56 with very little success 17:55:13 best would be to consult the GIMP docs, as it is not a standard scheme 17:55:40 well, there was a gimp scheme tutorial i saw 17:55:55 but it was just the basics 17:56:11 and i mean really the basics 17:58:08 you could read the gimp source... 17:58:17 the scheme interpreter bit is only 2 files. 17:58:17 of course 17:58:19 :D 17:58:20 http://www.gimp.org/docs/scheme_plugin/ 17:58:58 elf, though reading the source code of an interpreter can be great fun, I find that it usually don't offer much general insight into how to use the language well! 17:58:59 peddie [n=peddie@PIERCE-FIFTY.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:59:05 I mean, just look at Forth... 17:59:26 gnomon: it should give a general idea of the language constructs immediately available, though. :) 17:59:41 gnomon: yeah, took me ages to learn Scheme that way around, but when I finally got it, it was like, YEAH! 18:00:02 and a combination of that and some general understanding of programming should be sufficient to work out such problems as have been posed. 18:00:39 True, true; but I'd still recommend reading the docs before reading the source! 18:00:48 what docs? 18:00:48 i still dont get modules, how do I import file X from file Y? 1. when both in the same dir. 2. when in different dirs 18:01:21 elf, *any* docs. 18:01:28 rsdy: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/scheme-repository/imp/siod.html is a good reference for GIMP's scheme 18:01:38 gnomon: what if there arent any? :) 18:01:47 THANKS 18:02:01 (apparently there are some nowadays, there werent when i last looked though. at least not in the gimp source tree.) 18:02:03 leppie, doesn't the GIMP use TinyScheme these days, not SIOD? 18:02:05 GIMP= the photo editor? is it written in scheme!? didnt know, then i might contirbute to it... 18:02:20 gnomon: i dunno? 18:02:22 pilkarn: its written in c but uses scheme as a scripting lang. 18:02:25 gnomon: yes. 18:02:26 ah 18:02:39 let's find out before sending rsdy on the wrong path :) 18:02:55 it's tinyscheme 18:02:58 12:44 < elf> new gimp uses something similar to tinyscheme. old gimp uses a weird schemey script. really old gimp used guile (i think). 18:03:44 i see now 18:04:04 (something similar to tinyscheme cause one of the base library files isnt there and it has some totally whack extensions to make it more suitable for what gimp needs.) 18:05:56 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:06:02 from 2.4 it seems, so it depends what GIMP you got 18:06:29 wow, shit works 18:06:37 thanks for the help everyone 18:07:49 jah [n=jah@103.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 18:09:12 -!- tonyg [n=tonyg@host226.lshift.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:09:57 i still dont get modules, how do I import file X from file Y? 1. when both in the same dir. 2. when in different dirs 18:10:48 pilkarn, please don't spam the same question over and over. 18:11:09 It usually most annoys the people best equipped to answer your question. 18:13:16 pilkarn, (require "X") 18:13:24 or (require "../X") 18:18:30 using "" or not? 18:18:31 -!- peddie [n=peddie@PIERCE-FIFTY.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:18:35 using 18:21:04 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 18:21:07 i see not it works 18:21:19 and i have to provide the functions too, but if i want to provide all? 18:21:49 (provide (all-defined-out)) 18:21:59 whate version of drscheme are you running? 18:23:25 latest 18:23:25 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:37 pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 18:23:40 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-240-1.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 18:23:46 latest is not a version. what version number 18:25:15 -!- dlt__ [n=dlt@c91192dd.static.bhz.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:26 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:32 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:33:28 i have 4.1 or whatever 18:33:41 good boy 18:33:46 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:06 can I somehow tell scheme what modules should be imported at startup? there are a lot of basic stuff that isnt available and i dont want to require them each time 18:34:09 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:34:20 Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.4 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2009 PLT Scheme Inc. 18:35:16 put #lang scheme at the top of your program 18:35:38 run it with mzscheme x.ss instead of mzscheme -f x.ss 18:41:46 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:53:01 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:51 is there a good list module that does things like (range 1 4) -> '(1 2 3) , any?, every? etc? 18:55:29 have you tried searching the docs? 18:55:51 > stdin::1872: any: use of 'any' outside of an arrow contract in: (any pred (cdr xs)) 18:55:58 jonrafkind: yes 18:56:18 (for/list ((i (in-range 1 4))) i) 18:56:35 actually in-range 1 5 18:56:41 no wait, i was right the first time 18:56:53 *sjamaan* looks accusingly at offby1 18:57:56 amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 18:58:52 evening all 18:59:01 evening amoe 18:59:19 I'm trying to install PLT from source on a netbsd box 18:59:37 :S 18:59:59 'gmake install' takes an extremely long time since the machine has a very small amount of physical memory 19:00:20 anyway, due to circumstances beyond my control, it keeps getting interrupted... 19:00:39 long shot I know, but does anyone know if it's possible to resume 'gmake install' from the collection it was currently processing? 19:01:01 because it starts all over again each time 19:01:38 (small background: we keep having temporary power cuts and I don't have a UPS) 19:02:17 probably best to fix that problem first, heh, but I've been hoping each time I can get just enough time for it to complete... 19:02:46 > stdin::1872: any: use of 'any' outside of an arrow contract in: (any pred (cdr xs)) 19:02:55 is thta not in tail-position or what? 19:03:01 It's the wrong ANY 19:03:08 You want the one from SRFI-1 19:03:21 This is the contract version 19:03:56 You probably need to load a different library or something 19:03:56 -!- jao [n=user@25.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:11 pilkarn: (require srfi/1) 19:06:57 im in emacs, i do C-c C-l to load a module and it does with no complaints, but then when i use a function i get: reference to undefined identifier: inc 19:09:21 pilkarn: what are you trying to do? 19:16:29 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:17:16 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.233] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:17:46 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:19:43 amoe: load a module into the repl in emacs using plt scheme / mzscheme 19:20:12 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@iub-vpn-205-53.noc.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:20:50 laod scheme file in scheme-mode, perhaps not what it does? 19:21:14 i can mark it and do evaluate region and it works 19:21:25 what i want is the eq of mark the whole file and eval it 19:21:41 to make all the procedures ina file available in the repl 19:24:50 pilkarn: write (require srfi/1) in the repl 19:25:45 -!- rsdy [n=rsdy@catv-89-134-39-84.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["Távozom"] 19:25:57 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:27:07 yes but it is about my own module 19:38:36 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:40:51 doesnt sicp have a chapter on laziness? i cant find it. 19:42:40 Not a whole chapter. 19:43:27 Try 4. something though 19:44:36 4.2 19:50:02 Arelius: to answer your question from a few days ago: it avoids overwriting files by placing itself in a chroot jail owned by someone else, and dropping privs 19:50:39 hrm, so it runs the whole bot in a chroot jail, and not just the eval code? 19:50:54 incubot: we missed you! 19:50:56 I try to read everything he writes, since I love his writing style, but that one I either missed, or simply didn't make an impression on me 19:51:27 Arelius: basically 19:51:31 Interesting 19:51:45 how does it write to the db and logs then? 19:51:57 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A1963.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:24 that's slightly inelegant: it requires a second process who owns the db to do the writing 19:52:39 that's just a logger, though; doesn't need to be chrooted 19:53:40 Hmm, interesting 19:53:47 Thanks for the descriptions. 19:56:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:57:52 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:58:18 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 20:01:43 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055508.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:04:59 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:19 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:09:31 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 20:10:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:11:27 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:12:10 -!- jah [n=jah@103.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:13:24 billy- [n=Billy@c-71-63-115-7.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:54 peddie [n=peddie@MCNAIR-FOUR-SEVENTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:14:39 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 20:15:18 -!- billy- [n=Billy@c-71-63-115-7.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["peace!"] 20:17:19 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:18:01 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-106-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:36 hey synx 20:25:48 where id displayz.ss and texture.ss ? 20:25:53 hello 20:25:58 same directory pilkarn 20:26:20 I IZ IN UR DIRECTARY HIDING UR DISPLAYZ 20:26:40 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/games/isometric/ 20:26:51 sjamaan: DONT JUDGE ME 20:27:16 lol Im in your eye making you blind 20:28:23 Im in ur meme makin you lol 20:29:20 Ohh my 20:30:04 hey, supposing I wanted to write a C header file parser... any advice as to strategies there? 20:30:04 (map ( (arg) (display arg) (display " ")) rest) 20:30:11 . expand: unbound identifier in module in:  20:30:20 oh is it lambda? 20:30:27 -!- ithink [n=denise@EASTCAMPUS-FOUR-NINETY-THREE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:28 uh ya 20:30:35 synx, yes: ask Riastradh how his worked out. 20:30:37 I>> with ^ on top is what ui see 20:30:50 but plt should know . It doesn't? 20:31:04 yes but it isnt the symbl of lambda 20:31:12 it is: I>> with ^over i 20:31:15 but i changed to lambda 20:31:26 gnomon: :) I also would like to make a sort of "round thing" that rolls. 20:31:48 synx: that depends alot on what you wanted to parse C header files for. 20:31:53 You can if you like pilkarn. I'm still miffed that chicken doesn't understand . 20:32:18 texture.ss:54:4: get-argb-pixels in bitmap%: bad bitmap: # 20:32:18 . . texture.ss:93:27: You must register the name first 20:32:24 the windows goes up but then ^^ 20:32:27 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:32:34 Arelius: I was making a FFI for sqlite the other day and realized that I was basically parsing the header file with my brain and rewriting everything in scheme. 20:32:34 thanks anyhow ill be back later now i ahve something to play with 20:32:42 synx, that sounds suspiciously similar to something that someone invented a little while back. I think he was named, um... 20:32:44 synx: use yacc 20:32:49 :) 20:32:51 ..."Urgle-Grunt" is what I've got written down here. 20:32:55 pilkarn: did you save the pngs too? 20:33:00 Odd datestamp on that log, too. 20:33:52 synx: What scheme implementation do you use? Is it supported by swig? 20:34:06 I might do yacc... I bet I could get a yacc format of the C grammar and just stick my scheme stuff in there 20:34:11 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 20:34:20 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:34:37 Mr-Cat: With SWIG you have to manually rewrite the header file yourself. 20:34:46 Just... in their weird SWIG c-like interface format. 20:34:49 synx: Depending on how robust you need it, yacc might work. 20:35:00 synx: chicken has easy-ffi 20:35:30 I'm still leery of chicken. I don't program scheme so I can end up with C programs after all. 20:35:31 synx: if you need a robust C parser, the CLang C parser is mostly functional... but you'd have to write an FFI for that =P 20:35:37 else just write a simple C driver that pumps out s-expr lists 20:35:47 synx: csi doesn't compile to C 20:35:49 synx: ah now i didny 20:36:10 synx: you might also be able to port easy-ffi *shrugs* 20:36:15 Arelius: well that and I'm also waiting for chicken 4 to have decent module support. 20:36:28 Fair enough 20:36:31 plus emacs gives me hives 20:36:40 what do you use? 20:36:50 it worked 20:36:59 drscheme usually :> 20:37:05 kind of, it displayed the png but then crashed dr scheme 20:37:05 Or vim 20:37:13 vim is my bishie 20:37:23 emacs > vim 20:37:25 synx: I have to do a little work in PLT, so I'm using DrScheme, can't really stand it 20:37:28 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:37:31 exactly pilkarn 20:37:36 I miss Paredit-mode among other things. 20:37:42 synx: sometimes header can be enough... 20:37:46 synx: :) 20:37:55 time spent fighting with crappy emacs e-lisp debugging > time spent learning how to edit with vim 20:38:18 Arelius: If you're missing paredit, lookup divascheme. 20:38:20 synx, I use vim too, but I recognize that emacs is the superior editor in this space. 20:38:46 divascheme eh? 20:38:53 Arelius: emacs doesn't even have default support for finding matching parentheses. I haven't yet been arsed to fight with elisp to get the key binding for that set up. 20:39:07 gnomon: emacs is larger, and more complex, but I wouldn't say superior. 20:39:52 synx, that's true; but emacs is both richer and deeper, and these days I'd say that it is improving faster. 20:40:17 synx: I use (show-paren-mode) 20:40:37 Arelius: http://www.cs.brown.edu/research/plt/software/divascheme/ 20:40:43 well when it improves enough that I can see the open paren match with the close paren and hit % to toggle between 'em... 20:40:47 eli: neat 20:41:38 yeah Arelius. show-paren-mode is what's default in vim. 20:41:47 I'd forgotten how to do it in emacs. 20:42:08 meh 20:43:27 Oh I love the 0.1 second delay in finding the parentheses though. That's almost as useful as the 2 second delay when you... do that thing... 20:43:45 dammit that thing in emacs where you do it and then a few seconds later it realizes 20:43:56 a delay? 20:43:59 I don't mind that really, just it seems tacky. 20:44:11 yeah a delay I run into frequently. I forget what it is though. 20:44:30 OH right, quotation highlighting. 20:44:31 perhaps Vim is the better editor(not sure) but when working with Lisp i need a repl and emacs is very handy then 20:44:53 Meh it's more like 0.5 seconds, but not if you keep typing. 20:45:36 I can never figure out how to reconcile emacs's non-scheme internal elisp with a scheme interpreter. Might as well just switch to an xterm and run it as a shell command. 20:45:38 neilv [n=user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:06 billy- [n=Billy@c-71-63-115-7.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:46:08 morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has joined #scheme 20:46:51 hi. is there a way to load r6rs in the MzScheme repl prompt? 20:47:54 (require rnrs) I think 20:48:08 try typing "#lang r6rs" into the top pane and using the Module language? 20:48:21 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:48:32 billy- said mzscheme, not drscheme 20:48:38 a good opengl tutorial someone? 20:48:47 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 20:49:08 pilkarn: http://nehe.gamedev.net/ ? ._. 20:49:11 thanks synx, that seems to do it 20:49:32 sweet 20:49:33 synx: neilv's response is still a good one. 20:49:39 synx: how do you mean reconcile? do you want to know how to run a scheme-repl in emacs? 20:49:54 synx: as for the delay in Emacs -- it doesn't take it that much time to fine the paren, it's an intentional delay. 20:50:12 eli: mzscheme doesn't have a top pane nor a combo box for selecting a module language. 20:50:32 yeah I just find that intentional delay irritating. personal preference. 20:50:53 thanks neilv as well, but im using mzscheme in emacs 20:51:32 synx: You fail to read what I said: using drscheme is better than a repl in Emacs. 20:51:57 when drscheme gets snippets lemme know :P 20:51:59 billy-: if you really want to use r6rs in Emacs with mzscheme, you can use the plt-r6rs executable. 20:52:08 there is a "plt-r6rs" command in my plt 4.1.4 bin directory 20:52:10 I agree with that eli. My comment was on your statement as to the intentional delays. 20:52:15 billy-: Snippets? 20:52:32 synx: The delays are -- very obviously (this is Emacs) -- configurable. 20:52:41 ooh didn't know about plt-r6rs 20:52:45 bah, divascheme is moda! 20:52:48 http://code.google.com/p/yasnippet/, for emacs. textmate guys use them too 20:52:55 eli: not obviously! but I don't doubt you're right there. 20:53:04 modal! 20:53:40 synx: If it's not obvious, then do this experiment -- look for a useful Emacs package, think about something you'd want to tweak in the context of that package, then look in the source and find that the knob is already there. 20:53:43 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFD8DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:45 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-158-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:16 I'd like to get emacs so that it saved backups via RCS instead of numbered backups or tilde ones, eli. That was one thing that couldn't be configured. 20:55:42 ...and one thing that you can do in vim, incidentally. 20:55:43 RCS? Seriously? 20:55:52 synx I've seen a package that does that. 20:56:28 synx: That would be a hook to run when you want to write the buffer, which would be pretty easy to get. (And that hook obviously exists, again.) 20:56:32 you can backup in a svn or git directory 20:56:48 emacs can do version control, but you have to type C-something v every time you open the file, and it still saves backups independant of that 20:56:58 oh, you mean the autosaved backups? 20:57:15 no the ones that end in ~ 20:57:27 yeah, that's the autosaved backups 20:57:35 arent those the automatically generated ones based on time? 20:57:42 yeah 20:57:42 (ie, the autosaved ones) 20:57:59 jao [n=user@25.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:02 when using emacs with rcs, C-x C-q will effectively toggle the writability of the file, checking out locked or checking in with an unlocked checkout 20:58:07 The emacs strategy seems to be that version control is too complex and uncertain to automate, so they require you to set it up for your files, in case that's not what you really meant. 20:58:20 light [n=ghost@unaffiliated/light] has joined #scheme 20:58:40 *elf* doesnt use emacs, and so bows out of this conversation. 20:58:41 synx: That's a very bogus statement. 20:58:45 neilv: Yes but C-x C-s will not commit a new version, until you toggle the file's version control thingie. 20:59:10 synx: as it should be. people use that same emacs facility for scm integration 20:59:45 if you want to make emacs check versions into rcs automatically, you certainly can add that pretty easily. most people wouldn't want that, tho 20:59:55 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:00:21 Well I did want that, albeit in an odd fashion. I wouldn't say it's easy though. 21:01:10 Just have it run "C-x v i" on opening every file I guess, and disable backups entirely... 21:01:51 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:01:59 i don't think that will do what i thought you wanted 21:02:14 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:02:29 I want every file I edit to be version controlled, with that used as the 'backups' instead of the tilde files. 21:02:38 synx: If *that's* what you want, then it's a easy description of the two simple settings you need to do. 21:03:19 Oh yes, I can see how easy it is. 21:03:29 No problem at all. 21:04:08 to bad there is no (doc proc) function in scheme 21:05:07 pilkarn: agreed! 21:05:27 I also kind of wanted to instead of having dir/RCS/filestuff,v to have ~/backups/RCS/dir/filestuff,v. 21:05:36 That's a bit tricky though since you have to munge and create the directory before invoking rcs, then pass it as an environment variable IIRC. 21:05:43 billy-_ [n=Billy@c-71-63-115-7.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:05:46 -!- billy-_ [n=Billy@c-71-63-115-7.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:05:59 convenient for when you're done for the day and want to delete all your backups though 21:06:09 hell actually that's just kind of stupid, never mind 21:07:19 synx: That's exactly one of the things my Emacs setup does (for plain backup files though). 21:07:35 pilkarn: If you're using mzscheme, then try (help proc). 21:07:59 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-213.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:09:20 synx: why is that stupid>? 21:09:25 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:09:38 letrec is for recursive lambdas rigt? 21:09:45 Arelius: Why would I ever want to delete all my backup files? :/ 21:10:04 yes pilkarn 21:10:30 eli: ah very nice, a short doc in the repl would be nice to have though but this is god neough 21:11:41 pilkarn: The thing is that rendering the docs in the repl is difficult, and the result would be much less useful. 21:12:05 pilkarn: Note, BTW, that whenever there's a reference to some known binding in the docs (examples or whatever), it is also linked to its definition. 21:12:09 in plt, if i want a thread to have exclusive access to an output port while doing several write operations to it, is making a semaphore corresponding to the port and using call-with-sempahore the best way? 21:13:00 heat_ [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has joined #scheme 21:13:29 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [] 21:13:58 -!- heat [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:32 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:15:50 neilv: That's one way, but it doesn't sound too safe. 21:16:14 all writers to this port would respect the semaphore. is there a better way? 21:16:18 What I'd do instead is have one writer thread that writes out, and have other threads send it instructions about what to write. 21:16:38 (This is setting up some log-like facility.) 21:16:40 i was going to do that, but it's extra allocations 21:16:58 Is your goal some logging thing? 21:17:12 this is performance-sensitive web stuff 21:17:27 eli: i mean like get arguments: (doc any) -> args: [pred coll] ; docstring: blah 21:17:35 for the control channel of a protocol 21:17:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75662 <- so which of those fibonaccis is most idiomatic, letrec or define? does it matter? 21:18:29 on the one hand having 2 defines i find less aesthetic but it makes perhaps the function clearer 21:18:43 neilv: So, if you have a single thread you don't need to allocate things continuously, no? 21:18:56 pilkarn: what about macros? 21:19:15 eli: you need to allocate some representation that tells the writer what to write 21:20:00 some abstract representation, or a block of bytes. in either case, it seems like more allocations 21:20:11 eli: you mean for (doc macro-name) ? the same? 21:20:25 neilv: Ah, so it's more than just printing strings... 21:20:50 neilv: You could make that single thread hand you the port to write to -- but I suspect that this is getting close enough to using a semaphore. 21:20:51 yes. several write operations that must be done together to form a packet 21:21:17 pilkarn: Macros can have *very* arbitrary forms. 21:21:47 eli: that's an idea, but it would be backwards from how things currently work 21:22:09 backward from how the rest of the coordination works, i mean 21:22:22 jsw-lap [n=jsw@dhcp-128-146-114-169.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #scheme 21:22:24 anyway what avout my fibonacci function? 21:22:50 i think i will just try the semaphore, see how it works 21:23:12 Riastradh: thanks for clearing that up. I'm just getting used to Edwin and mit-scheme. It sure feels good and right. I rather use it than the emacs for windows interface. 21:23:27 -!- billy- [n=Billy@c-71-63-115-7.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:52 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-63.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #scheme 21:24:47 neilv: I'm not sure where the backwardness comes in (since I don't know more about the problem) -- but FWIW, I can tell you that just a semaphore is very cheap (according the Matthew, it's the same as a cons.) 21:24:48 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:04 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:25:16 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:25:16 excellent 21:26:19 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFD8DC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:53 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:33 *eli* hopes that neilv was rubbing his hands and had a wicked smile when he said that in a low tone. 21:29:46 :) 21:30:22 is there shorthand syntax for lambdas? like (filter #(> 5) '(2 3 4 12 14)) -> '(12 14) ? 21:30:41 if I want to make one, how do I do it? define-syntax for syntax-case? 21:30:54 You can use CUT 21:31:16 (srfi-26) 21:31:36 Most people don't bother and just write lambda 21:31:42 I mentioned that yesterday, pilkarn, when you asked that same question. 21:31:46 It's not much shorter 21:31:53 gnomon: I must've missed that 21:32:15 sjamaan, I think you might have been asleep at the time. 21:32:24 That's very much possible :) 21:32:51 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 21:33:29 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:34:02 -!- Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [] 21:34:40 CUT? 21:34:44 And CUTE. 21:35:00 -!- heat_ [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:07 Check the SRFI-26 text 21:35:10 It's obvious 21:36:44 synx, no, you were not parsing only the information in header files that a C compiler sees. Much more information is needed to correctly use a library. For example, the type `char *' says nothing about `zero-terminated' or `as many bytes as the size_t parameter to the left says'. 21:38:03 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:09 Arelius, Emacs names *backup* files by suffixing tildes to the original files' names; Emacs creates *autosave* files by circumfixing octothorpes to the original files' names. The difference is important. 21:39:12 Riastradh: That's true, but I think the code to decide that would be a lot smaller than code that identified each function's signature being what it is. 21:39:12 is jon dubois here? 21:40:30 synx, by the way, you can (setq show-paren-delay 0.0). 21:40:55 thanks Riastradh. Does that apply to "" too? 21:41:06 I don't know what you're referring to about "". 21:41:48 Indeed it does! 21:42:12 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 21:42:14 Riastradh: There's a delay when you type a " character before it alters the highlighting of the script to try and match it. 21:43:07 Riastradh: Ahh 21:43:08 When I type `"', Emacs either inserts a pair of quotes for me, or if I'm at the end of a string moves over the closing quote, or if I'm in a string inserts an escaped quote. 21:43:19 Riastradh: it deletes auto-saves automagically then? 21:43:31 Yes, Arelius, when you save the buffer. 21:44:02 That sounds neat Riastradh 21:45:59 wow I just downloaded an asm-version of one of the opengl tutorials. hwo the hell did people manage to write such complex stuff in assembler? pretty amazing... 21:49:52 gcc -s... 21:50:25 fiveseven [n=anonymou@cpc1-oxfd6-0-0-cust960.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #scheme 21:51:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:51:53 jsw-lap1 [n=jsw@dhcp-140-254-14-125.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has joined #scheme 21:53:58 pjb3 [n=pjb3@c-76-100-98-185.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:14 borism [n=boris@195-50-197-158-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 21:55:32 -!- fiveseven [n=anonymou@cpc1-oxfd6-0-0-cust960.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has left #scheme 21:57:24 hehe 21:57:54 I figure it involves alot of debugging 21:59:16 a lot 22:01:47 mib_kgg83r [i=c03a96bb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-07763609ee40cb07] has joined #scheme 22:02:59 -!- mib_kgg83r is now known as chupish 22:08:18 -!- jsw-lap [n=jsw@dhcp-128-146-114-169.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:07 -!- jsw-lap1 [n=jsw@dhcp-140-254-14-125.osuwireless.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:26 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-63.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:14:38 gorki [n=chatzill@p54A7C78E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 22:19:24 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75665 <- my final 2 versions of binary-search for a vector. which is better, letrec or define? can I improve the algorithm further? 22:20:25 heat [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has joined #scheme 22:20:47 pilkarn they should both end up about the same 22:20:56 it's a style thing at this point. 22:21:09 I think letrec is more commonly accepted. 22:21:13 but I kind of like define 22:25:14 -!- light [n=ghost@unaffiliated/light] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:22 is there a speed difference(guess not)? 22:26:35 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:50 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:28:45 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@rrcs-96-10-19-245.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 22:28:48 pilkarn: it depends on the implementation, I think alot will compile the prior to the latter. 22:28:58 *expand 22:29:50 a lot 22:31:22 basically letrec is superior for recursive lambdas in a function like map for example? where let+define would eb uglier? and otherwise it doesnt matter? 22:34:17 recursive lambdas? 22:34:57 I don't really know what letrec does. It does it well though. 22:35:30 it introduces the symbol within the declaration of it 22:35:44 somehow... 22:35:52 so, it'll generally be slower then let* which will generally be slower then let 22:36:08 it depends on the implementation. 22:37:41 Any implementation in which `LET* is slower than LET' is too slow for you to reasonably care about its performance. 22:37:44 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:37:46 Such considerations are abjectly silly. 22:38:28 Riastradh: and shouldn't Define be about the same speed? 22:38:40 lol 22:38:49 Cheshire: ? 22:38:50 rudybot: eval (letrec ((loop (lambda (n) (if (= n 0) #f (begin (display (format "~a~n" n)) (loop (- n 1))))))) (loop 10)) 22:38:51 No, DEFINE slows your program down like molasses. 22:38:52 synx: error: module: no #%module-begin binding in the module's language in: (module program rnrs) 22:39:00 ... 22:39:03 Riastradh: Ahh, wasn't aware. 22:39:04 rudybot: init scheme 22:39:05 synx: your scheme sandbox is ready 22:39:11 rudybot: eval (letrec ((loop (lambda (n) (if (= n 0) #f (begin (display (format "~a~n" n)) (loop (- n 1))))))) (loop 10)) 22:39:12 synx: ; Value: #f 22:39:13 synx: ; stdout: "10\n9\n8\n7\n6\n5\n4\n3\n2\n1\n" 22:39:14 Riastradh falls over 22:39:17 hmm why does plt scheme use [] for letrecs when u can use () too? 22:39:27 To distract you, pilkarn. 22:39:28 rudybot: eval ((lambda (loop n) (loop n loop)) (lambda (n next) (if (= n 0) #f (begin (display (format "~a~n" n)) (next (- n 1) next)))) 10) 22:39:28 wingo-tp [n=wingo@204.Red-88-17-130.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:29 synx: ; Value: #f 22:39:30 synx: ; stdout: "10\n9\n8\n7\n6\n5\n4\n3\n2\n1\n" 22:39:34 It tricks you into thinking that there's some added meaning, when there's not. 22:39:41 Those two programs are the Same Damn Thing, except... 22:39:59 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:05 I can't figure out how letrec obviates the need for a lambda to take itself as an argument. 22:40:13 Magic. 22:40:14 Or: SET!. 22:40:29 (`Magic' is the better answer, however.) 22:40:36 noo please not set! 22:40:43 Y not? 22:40:51 Y haha 22:41:06 no reason, just being weird :3 22:42:07 Riastradh: i use () now instead, parenthesises are more beautiful :) 22:42:32 It's to help you, pilkarn. 22:43:01 eli: are you a professor something? doctoral student? 22:43:15 Using square brackets in places where parenthesized subgroups are merely there for the macro's purpose will help you write better code with less errors. 22:43:22 pilkarn: I work as a pizza delivery guy. 22:43:28 what do you use/teach people to use? I find define to be clearer but letrec to be more aesthetic 22:43:42 We call eli The Deliverator when he's not here. 22:43:46 That usually means he's out on a mission. 22:43:56 eli: ok, did you program the pizza-machine in scheme? 22:44:04 pilkarn: I mostly teach them about the merits of folding the pizza when you eat it. 22:44:41 folding it is a very functional way of eating pizza 22:44:48 Right. 22:44:59 (fold eat (map peperoni pizzas)) 22:45:49 But for internal `define's vs `letrec', it's mostly a matter of taste. In my course I stick to internal defines first, until we get to the happy point of revealing the `letrec' magic that is involved. 22:46:06 (Which actually happened to be what I got to today.) 22:53:35 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:54:28 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:40 pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:40 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:56 can a vector not be dynamically re-sized? so if writing a filter-fucntion for a vector that should returna vector would I then filter to a list then construct a new vector once the filtering is done? 23:02:57 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 23:03:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 23:04:12 Vectors indeed cannot be dynamically resized, so that is a reasonable approach. 23:04:16 pilkarn, Scheme vectors cannot dynamically be resized according to the standard. 23:04:23 Eep. Sorry, Riastradh. 23:04:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:59 Riastradh: and what is a better than reasonable approach? 23:14:39 use a list or a stream for the result 23:14:49 how useful is a vector of indeterminate length? 23:15:09 It's indeterminately useful! 23:15:39 so you can use it to ... measure schrodinger's cat? 23:16:08 http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2008/11/20/computing-the-volume-of-a-wubble/ 23:16:29 Is there a standard function to call each of a list of functions in on the results of the prior oone in succession? 23:18:09 sounds like (apply compose functions), but compose isn't standard 23:18:18 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:53 Sounds like you want APL. 23:19:31 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75670 <- anyone could comment on that code? especially vector-filter. but general style and imrpovement tips would be appreciated 23:19:55 gnomon: Don't really want APL. 23:24:00 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-87-193.net.novis.pt] has left #scheme 23:27:25 -!- fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:28:20 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:32 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:28:38 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:32:10 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:41:40 silkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 23:43:27 -!- pilkarn [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 23:46:35 -!- amoe [n=amoe@cpc1-brig3-0-0-cust512.brig.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:49:46 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-224-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 23:49:56 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-0-246.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 23:53:56 -!- Guest98037 [n=m@dslb-088-067-047-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:54:36 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:55:08 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 23:55:17 orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFB8A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:55:37 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:56:49 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-197-158-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:57:16 light [n=ghost@unaffiliated/light] has joined #scheme 23:57:49 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection]