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How does that sort of thing work? 02:29:53 synx: Can you clarify what you mean by this? 02:29:56 dialect or whatever... some scheme thing where the elements of the list have a different meaning than usual. 02:30:37 synx: you're trying to do a dsl in scheme? 02:30:52 synx: Easiest answer: You can redefined the procedures and make your own syntaxes. 02:31:01 how is that disctinct from merely defining functions and variables? 02:31:15 re-define? you mean like set! ? 02:31:34 I've been thinking of trying to create a scripting language for a game. 02:31:48 synx: Why not just use Scheme? 02:32:01 And to a degree thinking about creating environments where certain stuff is setup in a framework. 02:32:22 sounds like guile to me 02:32:26 arcfide: because (with-input-from-file "/etc/passwd" (lambda () ...)) :p 02:32:35 sandbox 02:32:48 synx: Well, who ever said you have to provide those procedures or even make that stuff available? 02:33:04 Also because I've been passing around my "language" as a huge lists of function arguments, which certainly isn't condusive to adding more stuff. 02:33:11 synx: It's easy enough to isolate and protect code execution. 02:33:17 well that's what I'm talking about arcfide! 02:33:30 see rudybot 02:33:47 course if it's not running as root, it won't have more access than joe average user on your system 02:33:49 I was gonna ask if I could see the code for that. 02:34:21 http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/master 02:34:22 true zbigniew, but I'm also not planning on giving all the users of this game a shell account. 02:34:57 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176194071.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:03 then chroot it 02:35:17 synx: wtf, when did you become estranged? 02:35:23 that might be a good idea too. 02:35:33 estranged, klutometis? 02:35:42 heh 02:37:08 synx: If you look through rudybot's sources you'll basically see that it uses the PLT sandbox library which is perfect for real protection of the kind that you're talking about. 02:37:33 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:03 synx: Otherwise you want to create a "language" that has only a certain subset of functionality available -- in PLT, these things are usualy called "language modules", and they're very easy to slap together. 02:38:24 In proper r6rs schemes you can get close to it too. 02:38:56 synx: It is usually possible to make a decent sandbox from any Scheme system that has the usual means of abstraction, such as a module system. 02:39:16 But you should stay away from things like Guile -- having no real module system means that it's either extremely difficult or impossible to get that kind of protection. 02:39:27 *eli* laughs in arcfide's general direction 02:39:37 eli: Oh? What's so funny? :-) 02:39:52 Yeah if you can import anything, then aside from disabling import... 02:40:01 arcfide: That's for a very low value of "decent" there... 02:40:05 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@207-180-186-165.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:40:18 synx: The problem with guile goes much deeper than that. 02:40:38 What it has some sort of byte code assembly access? 02:41:02 arcfide: The thing is that getting a proper sandbox can be very difficult. The PLT sandbox library relies on about 3.7 tons of PLT-specific stuffs (not to make the code easier -- just features that are required to get that sort of thing). 02:41:38 synx: Well, you can grab any random macro, and expand it, and pull out all kinds of stuff that should be hidden from the expansion -- that's one example. 02:41:44 eli: Well, I've seen sandboxes in PLT, Chicken, and Chez, and all of them seemed to work pretty well. Of what PLT Features do you speak? 02:42:55 What if they just expand the macro manually and insert the code for it? 02:43:50 synx: The basic problem of guile is that there is no real module system to speak of. 02:44:10 arcfide: How about running a bazillion threads in the sandbox? 02:44:18 arcfide: Allocating too much stuff? 02:44:31 arcfide: Trying to access a module that is considered to be unsafe? 02:44:50 I don't understand how lack of a module system would be a problem... 02:44:53 arcfide: Can the sandbox block the surrounding Scheme? 02:45:01 eli: I can't speak for the Chicken version, but the Chez version I check has both upper limits on memory and running time, as well as limitations on access. 02:45:12 If it necessitated the ability to load arbitrary code, then yeah that'd be a problem. 02:45:19 synx: It means that you have no way to properly isolate code. See CL for an even more extreme example. 02:46:00 arcfide: Let me summarize it this way -- you bring in the bot, I'll try to break it... 02:46:00 isolate it in a separate process 02:46:19 So eli, taking a s-expression and prefixing "emulated-" to the left element of every list, then evaluating it, would that not constitute isolation? 02:46:24 eli: Hahaha. Alright. :-) I'll use it as a test for my Sockets library, too. ;-) 02:46:36 [One of the reasons that I'm not impressed with what I know about sandboxing in chicken is that the bot representation uses chroot for protection...] 02:47:01 '(with-input-from-file "/etc/passwd" ...) -> '(emulated-with-input-from-file "/etc/passwd ...) 02:47:22 chicken seriously uses chroot? That requires root privileges though. 02:47:27 arcfide: That's a good example -- you definitely don't want sandbox users to be able to access the C code you're debugging... 02:47:44 yes, those separate processes are terrible 02:47:54 synx: No -- klutometis uses chroot to make his bot safe for his machine's health. 02:48:07 Ohh okay. That's a bit different. 02:48:20 eli: Unfortunately, it'll be a bit before I can write Lobotomy. :-) 02:48:28 synx: As for symbol prefixing, that won't work in the general case. 02:48:50 eli: I do know that at IU here we have a sandbox that is used in most of the courses involving Scheme. 02:48:51 synx: What should (list '(foo bar)) return? 02:48:56 not in the general case, but for a small scripting language with a limited set of statements... 02:49:16 arcfide: Is it open for the public? 02:49:27 eli: No, but it's open to a whole host of undergrads. 02:49:38 eli: I'd say '((foo bar)) is fine, but it would only evaluate list as emulated-list, never foo. 02:49:41 Well, undergrads are usually very well behaved. 02:49:47 Hahah, sometimes. :-) 02:50:09 synx: If you translate all symbols, then you should also translate the ones inside the quoted list. 02:50:26 No, just the symbols that would be called as procedures. 02:50:48 synx: But your users might want to use `eval'. 02:50:53 arcfide: I'm serious... Here's an example of a security hole we had years ago: 02:50:58 Well they can't. >:( 02:51:17 but seriously, I think it'd be fine to let them use eval... emulated-eval that is. 02:51:22 arcfide: (let ([str (file->string "/etc/passwd")]) (error str)) 02:51:29 notyouravgjoel [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-174-188.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:06 arcfide: Now, ugrads know that there are log files around -- and it's a *huge* risk to do something like this, since it violates enough rules that they can find themselves kicked out. 02:52:31 arcfide: But open up a network line with a repl, and that kind of stuff is going to happen very often. 02:52:35 (eval '(bad-procedure "/etc/passwd")) -> (emulated-eval '(bad-procedure "/etc/passwd")) -> (emulated-bad-procedure "/etc/passwd") -> error 02:52:49 benny` [n=benny@i577A1069.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:34 synx: With a module system this shouldn't be so necessary. 02:53:41 synx: You can rename all the procedures on import. 02:53:56 synx: So, you can import a sanitized set of procedures. 02:54:24 I hope there are no buffer overflows or security issues in your Scheme system 02:54:27 Yes that's true arcfide. I like modules a lot. It is necessary if you have no module system though, or a leaky one. 02:54:59 zbigniew: I'm sure as heck not going to write this language interpreter in C! 02:55:21 I think it's safe, don't quote me on that, but probably slow and painful. 02:56:17 synx: what about `string->symbol'? 02:56:43 synx: Or how about some function that can access the global namespace (like `namespace-variable-value' in PLT)? 02:57:10 synx: The bottom line is what arcfide said -- that's a ton a work that you shouldn't be doing, if you have a good module system. 02:57:24 Those functions would not be available eli. I'd have to define the set of emulated-* previously. 02:57:59 synx: i'm merely saying that relying exclusively on your scheme system to provide security protection only works if that system is 100% safe 02:58:53 synx: What I mean is that you're essentially talking about implementing a module system (a poorely designed one, most likely -- no offense, but you can't compete with people who spent years on their module systems). 02:59:35 no I can't eli. I was only saying that it's possible to evaluate code in an isolated fashion without a module system...by writing a module system. 03:00:19 zbigniew: I would probably just slap reasonably sane limits on user's program size, and then let scheme avoid buffer overruns. There's always (if (fork) (fork) (fork)) to worry about though. 03:01:07 synx: Well... that's a tautology. 03:01:43 eh guess so. Anyway, so your advice is to use an existing module system to aid my formation of a sort of sandbox. 03:03:42 Also I need to collect a bunch of prepared SQL statements after connecting to a database, and then create a bunch of procedures that use those statements to do useful things, and then run code based on those procedures. 03:04:36 I haven't been able to figure out how to make the procedures available without getting them mixed up or resorting to a hash table lookup. 03:04:38 synx: Pick a Scheme that you like, and if it already has a sandbox, try using it, otherwise, write one that works and catches at least what the others catch. 03:05:04 synx: And use the module system. 03:05:08 Will do arcfide 03:05:57 shouldn't be a problem, if I can figure how to create a module that cannot itself import other modules. 03:06:04 synx: A sandbox would be an extreme case of isolation -- that should be used for cases when you want to run untrusted code. 03:06:55 I understand eli. There are two cases here, the untrusted player's code which I'd sandbox, and my own code that just needs a sort of procedure environment, but is trusted. 03:06:56 synx: But just a module system should allow you to provide people with a "dialect of scheme" which is limited in some way -- but not isolated as in a hermeticly-sealed sandbox. 03:08:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0495.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:15 synx: What Scheme System are you using? 03:10:36 In Chez Scheme, it is possible to say IMPORT-ONLY and this will disable importing any other libraries. 03:10:37 I dunno. I was using chicken because it's got a working sqlite implementation. 03:11:00 Likewise, I imagine, Petite is more accessible to you. 03:11:09 Doesn't Chicken have such a module system? 03:11:47 It um... I'm not sure actually. You'd have to ask foof. 03:11:52 It's kind of weird. 03:12:10 I would be very surprised if it did not provide this. 03:12:30 Chicken 4 has a hygienic module system with selective imports and renaming. 03:12:34 [RANT: Then again, I was quite surprised when Linux didn't have strlcpy(), which apparently is no biggie to a lot of people.] 03:12:57 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:14:19 pizza___ [n=pizza_@ool-457e7c9d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:14:30 Chicken 3 is the release though. It lets you label one module as using another, and require extensions, but I'm not sure that counts. the namespaces aren't done quite right until 4 I was told... 03:21:34 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:21:40 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:21:46 Riastradh: yep, git is unfortunately complicated to use; no argument. 03:22:23 Riastradh: I am indeed receiving patches from eli, and merging, although that isn't what was causing trouble. The trouble was: when eli goes to make patches, it makes patches for stuff that I've already got. 03:22:34 And there doesn't seem to be any -really- simple way to avoid that. 03:22:36 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 03:25:11 -!- pizza__ [n=pizza_@ool-457e7c9d.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:41 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:31:34 arcfide: glib has it, glibc devs annoyingly refuse to include the functions according to some bogus argument that seems to make sense to them, but in reality it's mostly because of NIH syndrome 03:31:46 In Chicken 4 you can access any binding, even hidden or renamed ones, if you know the secret password 03:33:26 Is their `bogus argument' that ASCIZ strings are silly, and one ought to write programs to rely on the sizes of buffers and lengths of strings rather than arbitrary markers within them? 03:34:00 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 03:36:27 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:42:55 refusenik [n=dan@user-1087rp3.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 03:45:17 Riastradh: I don't remember that being it. 03:47:17 strlcpy(a,b,10) does what, it copies the first 9 characters of a, and sets b[9] to \0? 03:47:21 er, vice versa 03:47:26 b->a 03:48:01 Not exactly. 03:48:51 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:50:27 That will copy *up* to nine bytes of b into a, followed by a zero byte. 03:50:59 Specifically, it will copy at most nine non-zero bytes of b into a, and then it will store exactly one zero byte after whatever bytes it did copy. 03:51:35 (and it will return the number of non-zero bytes that it copied) 03:53:08 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-240-185.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:57:45 Really, GNU's mempcpy(3) is a more sensible operation. 03:59:50 -!- refusenik [n=dan@user-1087rp3.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:59:59 refusenik [n=dan@user-1087rp3.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 04:02:03 -!- Axioplase [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["brb"] 04:02:15 Axioplase [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #scheme 04:07:20 dangit outside of chicken I can't find any SQL library to use with any other scheme. But what better way to do persistent storage of game objects? 04:07:26 maybe I should try chicken 4... 04:08:09 Maybe you should figure out what it takes to implement an `SQL library', whatever that is exactly. 04:09:38 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-10.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 04:10:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:11:11 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:01 A FFI is all that's needed really, but designing those things twists my brain into a tangle. 04:12:13 ...plus it's a royal pain to type all those constants myself. :> 04:12:14 Designing FFIs or designing `SQL libraries'? 04:12:41 I'm saying the libraries already exist in C, and are reasonably stable. Just accessing them from scheme is tricky. 04:13:03 What libraries are you talking about, anyway? 04:13:45 Well sqlite3 and postgres's libpq mostly. I guess mysql too, or whatever. 04:15:48 -!- reprore__ [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:55 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:16:59 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e177143030.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:24 synx: I wrote a PostgresQL binding for Chez a while back. 04:18:45 maybe I'll take a look... 04:19:44 Ah, no I can't afford a license. 04:20:17 synx: Hahah, well, if I were to get back around to updating and making it really stable, you might be able to use a compiled version. 04:20:37 You could also use it as a base for your own work. 04:20:52 It was based on something from PLT IIRC. 04:21:50 plt has a elegant sql interface that was abandoned in 2007 by its only developer and doesn't work anymore due to relying on odd things like set-car! 04:21:53 Actually, I think the PostgresQL part was inspired by Magic2. 04:22:14 I wonder how many people are using sql here anyway. 04:22:16 The SchemeQL that I ported was in PLT originally. 04:22:30 synx: Usually I find flat files and file systems to be more effective. 04:23:37 I would find those more effective, but the inode problem means just too much wasted space, transactions are really nice to have, and indexes are just awesome. 04:23:38 Anyways, I'm going to bed. 04:23:53 I mean these are not large objects I'm working with... 04:23:59 have a good one 04:24:20 synx: Well, if you want, I can send you the old code I have. 04:24:32 Send me an email if you do want it. 04:24:35 after you get up maybe 04:24:39 Alright. 04:24:46 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-58.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 04:25:40 -!- voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [Client Quit] 04:25:44 -!- refusenik [n=dan@user-1087rp3.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 04:26:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:44:38 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 04:47:20 tomturtle18 [n=tom@cmu-24-35-89-27.mivlmd.cablespeed.com] has joined #scheme 04:47:43 -!- tomturtle18 [n=tom@cmu-24-35-89-27.mivlmd.cablespeed.com] has left #scheme 04:54:16 crap, i forgot tomorrow is 1234567890 05:00:05 we would've reminded you :) 05:00:23 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:04:57 mr-slave: countdown for zbigniew 05:04:57 zbigniew: 1234501497... another eighteen hours, twenty-six minutes left 05:05:41 MOTHER O' GOD 05:07:26 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:07:38 *zbigniew* notices a flickering in his peripheral vision, looks down, and is horrified to see his hand crystal is blinking red 05:07:59 Let me know when it is next a product of distinct, consecutive primes. 05:08:18 I have a hard time getting worked up about some decimal representation. 05:10:12 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176219125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:10:17 Riastradh: exactly 05:10:59 isn't 10 prime? 05:11:08 rudybot: eval (require (planet "math.ss" ("soegaard" "math.plt"))) 05:11:09 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 05:11:09 *offby1: error: with-input-from-file: `read' access denied for /home/erich/.plt-scheme/planet/300/HARD-LINKS 05:11:13 bummer 05:11:22 In binary, ternary, quintenary, and septenary, sure. 05:14:05 don't forget eleventy-ary 05:14:32 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:16:45 mmmm... elevensies... 05:20:01 ooh, when was it last a product of consecutive primes 05:20:06 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 05:20:18 sounds like a job for my projecteuler library 05:21:16 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 05:21:24 aspect: heh, I just used soegaard's "math.plt" -- which I'd used for Project Euler -- to factor the timein seconds 05:21:43 (factorize (current-seconds)) => ((2 1) (3 1) (5 1) (13 1) (541 1) (5851 1)) 05:21:46 e.g. 05:27:16 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176207204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:36 aspect: Wed Jan 26 02:14:30 1977 :) 05:28:50 2*3*5*7*11*13*17*19*23 05:30:43 And it won't happen again until 2245. 05:32:04 :o 05:32:11 oh, that's too easy 05:32:33 nobody said the primes started at 2 05:32:33 It may be computationally easy, but it is certainly mathematically more interesting than some decimal cruft! 05:33:16 I'll agree with that 05:33:22 but you know .. any excuse for a party 05:33:45 I'll agree with that. 05:34:07 *foof* celebrates the current time having a 1 in the binary representation! 05:34:18 *Hic& 05:34:21 The nice thing about the decimal issue is that it comes from our 10 fingers which in turn come from the *Evolution of Species Through Means of Natural Selection* which was discovered by someone who was born precisely 2*10^2 years ago :) 05:36:14 *eli* guesses that Riastradh would love to have 6 additional fingers. 05:36:14 We should all be partying for the 50 years of Lisp (was there some kind of commemoration ?) 05:36:18 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #scheme 05:37:50 with a special finger combo from the C-x emacs keystroke. 05:38:06 s/from/for/ 05:50:47 Even two would be nice, eli. Duodecimal is a much nicer counting system for humans, since we care more about divisibility than about bits. 05:53:15 Well, another alternative that is more practical than growing more fingers is to cut off two of them. 05:53:19 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has quit [] 05:53:36 Octal fell out of fashion decades ago. 05:54:11 But seriously, there's no need to disrespect decimals more than any other base -- and they still have the advantage that we're used to them. 05:54:57 Sure there is! Five is a silly number. Two, three, four, and six are all nice numbers. Anyway, many of us *are* familiar with duodecimal systems -- just not as a radix for numbers. For example, how many inches are there in a foot? 05:55:02 Goodnight, moon 05:56:09 [BTW, this is coming from someone who, at some point in the past, seriously considered doing *everything* in hex for long enough that it will be as natural as decimals.] 05:56:43 Sorry, but I don't share your old-fashioned non-metric enthusiasm. 05:57:17 *aspect* is a fan of divisibility 05:57:41 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:58:12 [2.54cm for an inch, about 3 feet per meter, around 33cm for a feet, so my guess would be 12 -- and I really do that every time I need to know the number.] 05:58:19 although five is a rather nice number. it appears with some fun geometric forms 05:58:27 (I'm only serious that duodecimal would be a nicer system to work with, and particularly that duodecimal `metric system' would be much nicer than either the bizarre English system or the decimal metric system. What I'm not serious about is that we ought to switch to duodecimal.) 05:59:15 The whole mode of work with floating point decimals makes divisibility redundant. 06:00:03 It doesn't help quick mental calculations. 06:00:09 In a few rare cases it's easy enough to know that 0.33 is 1/3, but nothing should make that any more special than 753/13. 06:00:25 Thirds arise much more often than thirteenths. 06:00:49 So, you learn to divide by three. Not that difficult. 06:01:18 It's easier if division by three is basically built-in to the number system. 06:01:34 The bonus that you get is freedom from magic numbers -- which is exactly what leads to the insanity of feet/inches and other such units. 06:01:40 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #scheme 06:02:21 eli: 30cm per feet 06:03:22 [Doesn't matter much -- because I know that the goal should be one of these numbers that Riastradh considers better...] 06:03:46 I always remember (< yard meter) so when you round down 1/3 meter it's closer to the exact answer. 06:04:40 I can never remember if yards are related to meters by a factor of three, or if they happen to be yet another crazy unit that americans use when they want to talk about "meter"s. 06:05:13 Why do you want freedom from magic numbers? You must remember many relations between digits, irrespective of the radix you use, unless you just want to count a great deal. 06:05:24 A yard is just 3 feet, so is close to, but slightly smaller than, a meter. 06:05:47 A six foot tall man is not uncommon. A 2 meter tall man is quite rare. 06:06:03 That is, in order to do arbitrary floating-point computations, you must remember many relations between the digits. Duodecimal gives us more fast-path relations for multiplication and division. 06:06:19 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:06:49 Riastradh: I was completely serious about that hexadecimal thing, but in relity a more "beautiful" number is not that much practical -- and that one suffers from being nice only to powers of two; 06:07:44 Duodecimal would make 5 a really odd number. 06:07:45 Riastradh: So the next logical step is that we want a "highly divisible" number -- but not something like 2*3*5*7, because 7 is not too common, and 2 is more common than 5. 06:08:23 Riastradh: So from there I go on to 60 being a really good number -- more 2s, and respects the two others. 06:08:29 42! 06:08:47 Sixty is convenient (hence our time system), but unwieldy -- we don't have sixty graphemes for digits. 06:09:09 ... or names. 06:09:23 (and it requires memorization of many, many relations between digits) 06:09:25 Riastradh: But since all of this is mostly random, staying with the default that I'm already used to makes almost as much sense -- maybe even more considering the huge effort in converting. 06:09:31 leppie: Almost - 420 is the perfect base. 06:09:51 :) 06:10:05 eli, as I said, I'm not seriously proposing that we switch to duodecimal. Any time I say anything to that effect, I mean it in jest. 06:10:17 *foof* always has trouble remembering is 57's times tables 06:10:37 Yes, that's clear -- I can definitely say that I was more serious at the time than you are. 06:11:30 And BTW, the 1234567890 doesn't really impress me more than the newyear of 2000 did. 06:11:54 (I semi-lived in Manhattan at the time, and didn't even bother going out.) 06:12:23 So, after all that I can summarize my view of this as: what Daemmerung said. 06:12:55 (aspect, actually.) 06:13:01 The fourth of January in 2004 was impressive -- not because of any numerical significance (perhaps `numerological' is a better word), but because of the amusing accounts of what broke on that Saturday morning. 06:13:11 Excuse me: tenth, not fourth. 06:14:00 2004-01-10? What happened then? 06:14:01 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:14:15 The Unix time rolled over into the thirty-first bit. 06:14:54 `Gee, I need to insert a dummy item into this queue of things to run at specified times. This dummy item shouldn't be run, so...I guess I'll just insert it with a time that will never, ever, ever be encountered. Say, twice the current number of seconds since the epoch!' 06:15:27 If time_t is a signed 32-bit integer, as it often is... 06:15:52 ... and unix time no longer fit into a fixnum in many Lisps... 06:16:14 It hadn't since 1987, foof. 06:16:34 (That's when it rolled over into the thirtieth bit, which serves as the sign bit if your fixnum tag is two zeros.) 06:17:11 If you want to find times that are interesting, then going out of the geek box is more productive. 06:17:15 Hrm, PLT seems to support threading. 06:18:08 [Also productive in making you feel like a numerologist, and all the nonsense that that involves.] 06:18:13 rudybot: eval (list->string (map integer->char '(#x36 #x78 #x38 #x36))) 06:18:14 zbigniew: your sandbox is ready 06:18:14 zbigniew: ; Value: "6x86" 06:18:36 Riastradh: In some Scheme (including Chicken) there's only a 1 bit tag for fixnums. 06:19:05 Yay, gematria! 06:19:24 incubot: (##sys#fudge 21) 06:19:29 try that if incubot shows back up 06:21:13 where did incubot go? 06:21:19 underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet126-121.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:21:27 he is smoking sweet cigarettes 06:22:01 incubot was tired, and now lives with Grandma and Jesus in Heaven. 06:22:25 Ohh, so sad 06:22:29 foof: Exactly -- a whole system to come up with hidden meanings in numbers and words. 06:23:07 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["brb"] 06:23:08 I think `make up' is a slightly clearer phrase than `come up with'; it has better connotations. 06:23:20 You said they gave Grandma to a farm!! 06:24:03 Riastradh: #t 06:27:09 coastermaster [n=ben@c-24-130-119-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:27 Daemmerung: every time i go to palo alto, incubot dies 06:27:45 guess i'll have to throw him up on a real server 06:30:13 foof [n=user@clair07.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:33:53 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-76-222-108-126.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:41:02 -!- araujo 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Value: 1234540949 16:02:36 rudybot_: nick rudybot 16:02:36 -!- rudybot_ is now known as rudybot 16:04:01 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:05:01 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@host146-90-static.40-85-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:07:03 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 16:10:05 -!- jop [n=jop@222.165.105.99] has quit [] 16:13:10 NatLWalker [n=Nate@canopy-pool5-148.kaplantel.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:14 Hi all 16:14:25 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:19:38 Hi 16:19:39 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 16:19:53 offby1: Waiting for 1234567890? 16:20:20 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:21:57 breathlessly. 16:22:44 *offby1* wonders if nerds around the world will make loud noises at that instant 16:23:15 bweaver [n=bweaver@64.139.72.146] has joined #scheme 16:23:41 offby1: Does unix time show local time or GMT? 16:25:01 Mine (current-time) is: 1234542272 16:26:14 kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 16:26:45 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:28:29 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:54 Mr-Cat: not sure what you mean by "unix time" 16:29:16 rudybot: doc current-seconds 16:29:17 Does anyone know a reasonably good Scheme compiler for Windows that can compile to machine code? 16:29:20 *offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/time.html#(def._((quote._~23~25kernel)._current-seconds)) 16:29:33 ÒóåÄÖôäëóêÆ ñðøñëóò 16:29:33 Free or "cheap". Either or :P 16:29:36 chicken 16:29:38 NatLWalker: PLT scheme compiles to machine code, but probably not in the way you mean. 16:30:02 Ah I should specify that I'm not looking for a bytecode compiler :) 16:30:18 Bytecode, IL, however it should be noted. 16:30:48 NatLWalker: Try chicken 16:30:52 I hear that MIT Scheme runs on Windows, although I have never tried it myself. 16:31:02 But be careful what you wish for, because you may get it. 16:31:19 What is chicken? 16:31:31 Chicken: 16:31:31 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:32 NatLWalker: chicken scheme 16:31:37 MIT Scheme: 16:31:42 gambit works on windows, I've written Win32 programs in it 16:31:56 Ok, thanks. Thought it was an inside joke, hehe 16:32:09 (Of these, only MIT Scheme includes software that generates machine code. Chicken and Gambit rely on external programs, namely C compilers, to do that job.) 16:33:17 Hrm, it compiles to .COM files so I guess only 64k programs? I'll look at some commercial compilers. 16:33:57 Or install Linux I guess, wanna learn some LISP :p 16:33:58 ? 16:34:29 The files to whose names `.com' is suffixed in MIT Scheme have nothing to do with Windows or DOS executable files. 16:34:48 (Is that what you were referring to?) 16:34:58 Yes 16:35:16 `.com' means `compiled', nothing more. They're in a format that MIT Scheme can load, and about which Windows knows nothing. 16:35:24 as a matter of general principle you should probably not develop on windows anyway :P 16:35:55 Elly: "Oh, you wanna learn this cool new programming language? Well, first learn a WHOLE NEW OPERATING SYSTEM!" 16:35:59 I have a Unix workstation her (Solaris). Linux has the compilers pre-installed so i was gonna go the easy rought. 16:36:01 route* 16:36:06 offby1: yep! 16:36:07 here too 16:36:15 I can sympathize with someone who doesn't look forward to that. 16:36:33 except for me windows would be the new OS 16:36:42 O.O 16:37:11 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #scheme 16:37:42 fortunately, there really aren't any windows-only languages I want to touch 16:37:55 hehe 16:38:31 I haev been using this solaris workstation in place of linux, got a good deal on ebay and the OS is clean 16:38:39 -!- Judofyr [n=Judofyr@95.34.27.156.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:38:48 since like 04 16:39:08 Judofyr_ [n=Judofyr@95.34.27.156.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 16:40:23 -!- saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:40:44 "clean"? 16:40:58 Unsullied by dirt from the back yard? 16:41:17 used here as a synonym for elegant? 16:41:37 all of my experiences with Solaris can be summarized as follows: An excellent kernel, with the best userland 1986 has to offer 16:42:15 Unsullied by GNU `cat', perhaps. 16:43:17 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:43:42 saccade [n=saccade_@COMBINATOR.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:44:12 if a kernel doesn't crash, and has the device drivers I need, that's all I care about 16:44:18 mr-slave: countdown for mr-slave 16:44:18 mr-slave: 1234543458... another six hours, forty-seven minutes left 16:44:24 I used to complain a lot more about the gnu tools than I do after using solaris for a while :P 16:44:35 offby1: the solaris kernel can do some really neat things 16:44:48 from all reports, zfs is a piece of deep magic and they got it very right 16:45:38 Userland can be updated a bit :P 16:46:13 Sun's compilers > anything from GNU though. 16:46:19 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:46:25 all of the features in the gnu tools look absurdly superfluous until you want on of them :P 16:46:29 one, even 16:46:40 what's the observable effect of this zfs and compiler goodness? Does stuff run faster than it would on Linux, e.g. ? 16:46:50 There are versions for Solaris if needed :) 16:47:12 They just don't install in the default directory, put their path first and u have them AFAIK 16:47:13 or in sort: how does zfs help me get laid? 16:47:20 After you install them ofc 16:47:46 offby1: that depends if you know people that are attracted to block-storage layers 16:48:19 It's supposedly being ported to Linux 16:48:28 I think FreeBSD has a working version of ZFS atm, though 16:49:14 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-181-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 16:49:23 offby1: but it's supposed to make, e.g., doing backups and such very easy 16:49:49 -!- higepon989 [n=taro@FLH1Aem135.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:06 And in opensolaris you'll have a nice default gtk theme :P 16:51:23 or CDE! 16:51:42 not in Open version, though :p 16:52:38 CDE is ugly too lol 16:52:49 They have the Java Desktop System, though (GNOME) 16:53:00 In fact, some time ago I was looking at opensolaris as a nice pre-configured development platform, but unfortunately it would not run on my laptop 16:53:01 Gnome with an ugly theme, IIRC 16:53:13 solaris *does* run on my laptop! 16:53:14 I tried it 16:53:27 but it didn't offer me any useful advantages over linux and I like having wine handy 16:54:02 My had 512 ram (afaik, opensolaris cannot be installed in this case) 16:54:07 solaris doesn't run on my trash PC, but it runs on this one 16:54:17 so i just got cheap thing off ebay and upgraded the OS 16:54:19 I have 2GB of ram in my laptop 16:54:38 it's finicky with hardware, some of the opensolaris ran though 16:54:39 Why using wine btw? 16:55:13 and yea, that's why i use solaris instead of linux, less trash packages and u can just install the sun compilers makes a clean install/dev system 16:55:47 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-212-116-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:55 NatLWalker: Well, one man's trash package is another man's tool 16:56:10 Yea :) 16:56:51 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:54 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:59:21 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 17:04:52 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:00 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:07:22 -!- levi` is now known as levi 17:07:38 -!- NatLWalker [n=Nate@canopy-pool5-148.kaplantel.net] has left #scheme 17:08:00 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:09:25 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:13:38 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-93-73.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 17:15:27 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:25:34 chupish [i=c03a96bb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4417d44ff2a7aead] has joined #scheme 17:25:42 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:03 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 17:27:01 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:27:31 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:27:52 -!- Guest92214 [n=m@dslb-088-066-244-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:30:52 jop [n=jop@222.165.105.99] has joined #scheme 17:31:24 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw304058.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:59 good morning #scheme. i am finally back for real this time. 17:35:32 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@hermes.lanit.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:14 that's nice. 17:36:21 hi offby1 17:36:37 Good Morning 17:36:56 sarahbot: eval 1 17:37:01 no sarahbot atm. how sad. 17:37:14 -!- jop [n=jop@222.165.105.99] has quit [] 17:37:19 offby1bot: eval 2 17:38:01 uh, "two" 17:38:13 way to go. 17:38:27 i have an arabicnumeral->english converter! 17:38:31 I miss sarahbot too 17:39:22 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:40:56 drwhen [n=what@209-112-146-99-rb2.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #scheme 17:41:32 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:49 kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:42:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 17:43:05 *elf* demotes offby1 to a lisp-2. 17:43:36 *chupish* sighs 17:43:47 now we'll have to (in-package ...) all the time 17:43:58 only if we want to talk with offby1. 17:44:05 the rest of us can keep our united namespace. 17:44:17 yeah it's /so/ much better not having a module/package system 17:46:44 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:48:21 -!- thehcdreamer_ [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 17:49:06 nothing wrong with a package system, provided its not being braindead. 17:49:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:23 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 17:56:37 -!- notyouravgjoel [n=joelmccr@CMU-221270.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:00:00 -!- Fulax is now known as Fulax|afk 18:05:08 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 18:12:26 notyouravgjoel [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-89.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #scheme 18:20:10 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:23:15 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A2B24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:26:33 Arelius [n=Indy@209.77.67.98] has joined #scheme 18:31:10 mr-slave: countdown for csu660 18:31:11 csu660: 1234549870... another five hours left 18:31:47 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:32:03 csu660? 18:32:07 hi eli! 18:34:01 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:34:17 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:40:44 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 18:53:31 i have my csi4 -eval '(print (current-seconds))' ready to go 18:53:55 ooh, shiny 18:53:56 csi4! 18:54:17 WOOT 18:54:23 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:57:12 -!- Fulax|afk is now known as Fulax 18:58:18 -!- Nichibutsu [n=myfabse@wikipedia/Track-n-Field] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:59:00 -!- notyouravgjoel [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-89.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:00:15 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-84.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 19:04:51 jao [n=user@25.Red-81-32-187.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:28 mr-slave: countdown for all-my-peeps-that-couldn't-be-here-today-or-are-otherwise-unix-epoch-agnostic 19:08:28 all-my-peeps-that-couldn't-be-here-today-or-are-otherwise-unix-epoch-agnostic: 1234552107... another four hours, twenty-three minutes left 19:08:44 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:02 oh, is the epoch soon? 19:09:11 elf: it's been going on since 1970 19:09:23 i meant the 32 rollover. 19:09:32 no, but some sort of straight-flush 19:09:41 also, long time no tty 19:09:42 ah, i see. 19:09:59 aye, ive been sans computer for a bit. im back now. i can be voted off the island though. 19:10:29 nah, you still hold the monopoly on one of the most desirable, pronouncable three-letter nicks 19:10:47 mr-slave: countdown for my-dead-homeboys 19:10:47 my-dead-homeboys: 1234552247... another four hours, twenty minutes left 19:11:03 woot. 19:11:35 one two three FOUR FIVE six seven eight NINE TEN ... ELEVEN TWELVE 19:11:44 *elf* plays sesame street pinball. 19:13:19 *klutometis* counters with the count: that's one unsigned thirty-two bit integer, two, ... ah ah ah *thunder, lightening* 19:13:38 *elf* grins. 19:14:05 *elf* puts some rags on hangers and summons more of the aliens: yep yep yep yep, uh huh, huh huh. 19:18:48 elf: Good morning... 19:19:18 csu660 is my class, btw -- some students were semi-excited about the time thing. 19:19:42 Elly: excellent summary of solaris, btw. 19:20:49 -!- voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-93-73.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:46 eli: any excuse to party, no? 19:27:54 -!- kryptiskt_ [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has left #scheme 19:28:42 kryptiskt [n=irc@cust-IP-129.data.tre.se] has joined #scheme 19:29:09 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 19:30:31 gkatsev: Sure, at least for some value of "party". 19:30:52 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:41 another way to know if it is the time yet: isit1234567890yet.com 19:31:56 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:29 gkatsev, who makes these websites? 19:33:19 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:33:28 Cheshire: no clue... the "more informative" site http://www.coolepochcountdown.com/ is made by a chris rowe 19:43:05 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 19:50:55 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:57:23 ffis are so frustrating. I hate having to re-write the interface. If only there was some way to parse the header files... 19:57:53 easyffi FTW! :) 19:59:13 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 19:59:39 heh 19:59:48 easy...? 19:59:59 ooh 20:00:11 does drscheme come with opengl bindings? 20:00:12 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:25 I was inspired by easyffi to do some C header file parsing for Gambit: 20:00:27 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 20:00:29 http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/mod/journal/journal.asp?jn=292963&reply_id=3381517 20:00:44 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/dcwh2w 20:01:07 reprap: ...yes see 'sgl' 20:02:51 jlongster: that's pretty neat too! 20:02:58 Yeah, cool stuff 20:03:20 synx: there is also swig 20:03:27 I haven't checked out Gambit yet. Does it have good module support? 20:03:52 Arelius: I haven't heard a good word about SWIG 20:03:53 Arelius: Yeah, for CL! :/ 20:04:14 synx: chicken supports it too. 20:04:22 I think guile too 20:04:24 Oh nm then that's fine. 20:04:30 sjamaan: well easyffi can't really do C++ well either. 20:04:37 I was warned away from guile... 20:04:44 It can't? 20:04:50 C++ can't really do C++ well. 20:05:12 hehe 20:06:00 sjamaan: not from my experience. 20:06:27 synx: Gambit doesn't have a module system 20:06:34 I keep thinking though, that the best parser for C is gcc. Trying to rewrite its algorithms seems tacky. 20:06:54 benny99 [n=bebenny@p5486EED9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:07:00 jlongster: how do you use code in different files then? 20:07:02 It depends what you want out of it. If all you needs is a few declarations from a C header file, it's not *that* hard 20:07:19 (well, maybe it is.) 20:07:55 synx: you either include then at expansion time, or load them at run time 20:08:45 synx: C Strictly speaking is easy to parse, it's C++ that's the problem... and there are problems with using GCC to parse 20:08:55 it simply pulls in all of the definitions from the included/loaded file. Gambit does support a primitive namespacing mechanism, which gets you a little bit. 20:09:44 The main thing I found difficult to parse in C was types. but it is rather doable. 20:09:54 Arelius: Such as how gcc conceals all contracts in its compiled code, so you can't tell if a function takes an int, or two char*s or what, just by examining the library. 20:10:14 jah [n=jah@200.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:28 -!- jah [n=jah@200.55.198-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:34 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:36 http://www.info.uni-karlsruhe.de/software/libfirm/index.php?title=Main_Page 20:10:38 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6rjrte 20:10:40 ^ LibFirm 20:10:54 Has a nice C parser 20:11:02 synx: and the optimization it does preemptively, and the lack of plug-in support, or support for adding plug-in support 20:11:10 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 20:11:14 i cant find slg 20:11:43 chupish: I think the clang C parser is mostly working. 20:11:50 I think SWIG is no better than a native FFI, because it still requires you to rewrite the interface and doesn't parse the header file. 20:12:17 Arelius: heh... 20:12:58 synx: you sure, I'm pretty sure it parses headers. 20:13:34 Arelius: http://www.swig.org/Doc1.1/HTML/Introduction.html#n5 20:13:42 Arelius: yep, much like most C systems (nwcc, ten15, tendra). Doesn't help that GCC has 'extensions'. Ken's CC might be an interesting port 20:14:15 Looks like SWIG is more of a generic interface generator for many languages, but doesn't do anything to make the C more comprehensible. 20:14:25 Or, if you're really bold the old school C compiler for lispms (in ZetaLisp no less) :-) 20:18:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-67.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:21:11 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 20:28:26 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:05 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:31:10 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:24 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:34:11 voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #scheme 20:45:25 -!- voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:28 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 20:48:25 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05576C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:17 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:53:05 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-244721.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:53:16 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:53:49 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A2B24.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:21 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 21:01:07 voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #scheme 21:14:34 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 21:14:56 does scheme have ahshmaps? 21:15:17 yes 21:15:41 hashishmaps :p 21:15:58 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [No route to host] 21:16:28 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 21:16:28 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:36 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 21:17:34 doesnt work (define hm (hashishmap)) 21:17:41 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:18:28 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 21:18:28 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:31 try (define (hashishmap) (make-hashtable 420)) 21:18:50 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:20:17 420 =? 21:20:20 rudybot_ [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:21:09 is earch the docs but dont get anything 21:21:23 leppie picked it at random 21:21:24 it's a size 21:21:31 you should look for hashtable or hash-table 21:22:16 why si there a size? 21:22:25 it's optional 21:23:10 your scheme may differ in the syntax 21:23:16 can I resize? 21:23:17 can I download the manulas instead? 21:23:20 my internet sucks 21:23:23 drscheme 21:23:27 what scheme are you using? 21:23:35 wow ESP :) 21:24:07 they have plenty manuals 21:24:12 good ones too 21:24:21 mzscheme? 21:24:30 Help, Help Desk, search for "hash" 21:24:36 yes, PLT MZ Dr scheme 21:24:59 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:25:04 cant i downlaod the whole manual? 21:25:30 yes, just download the install file with the manuals 21:25:57 some versions come without it, i cant recall what 21:26:00 reprap: The PLT installation should include all of the manuals. 21:26:15 ok eli can help 21:26:29 He's running v103 on OS/2 21:26:55 reprap: You can just hit `f1' in DrScheme -- for example, when the cursor is next to `make-hash' 21:27:10 [Daemmerung: was that a joke?] 21:27:17 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:21 *Daemmerung* keeps a straight face 21:27:30 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 21:27:57 (I /do/ wonder which install he has that doesn't seem to include any manuals. I suspect a very old one.) 21:28:03 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:28:30 Even the old ones had most of the documentation included. 21:28:55 Probably some silly packaging that decided to split documentation from the software 21:29:06 minion: chant 21:29:07 MORE READABLE 21:29:26 why do i egt unbound dientifier for make-hashtable when running from the file but not from the prompt(in dr scheme) 21:29:26 These distros nowadays... 21:29:32 Boo for silly packaging. 21:29:56 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:30:02 sjamaan: I think that I convinced the few people who intended to do that to not to. 21:30:21 reprap: what do you mean by "running from the file"? 21:30:33 eli: You never know, there are lots of obscure distros out there 21:30:47 Not all of them would bother to contact "upstream" about their intentions 21:32:16 how do i convert "12" to 12? 21:32:17 eli: i mean running from the part where i edit large programs, ie not printing int he repl 21:32:32 string- 21:32:35 >integer 21:32:47 er... dont know if it exists in all schemes... 21:32:51 string->number, not string->integer 21:32:59 right, number 21:33:00 r5rs string->number 21:33:00 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_352 21:33:02 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/cxn85s 21:33:12 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Success] 21:33:20 -!- offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:22 reprap: can you lisppaste an example? 21:34:06 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:34:22 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:34:56 Also, when you start DrScheme, what does the banner print? Specifically, what is the version, and what is the Language? 21:35:17 i cant find docs download, link? 21:36:35 There is no separate doc download. http://download.plt-scheme.org/ gives you installation images. http://docs.plt-scheme.org/ is a copy of the documentation for the latest version. 21:37:19 reprap: Try `make-hash' 21:38:42 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:38:51 rtra_ [n=rtra@89.180.20.103] has joined #scheme 21:39:05 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 21:40:37 : expects type as 1st argument, given: #f; other arguments were: 1 21:41:09 works ind rscheme but not as exe 21:41:09 Language: Module; memory limit: 128 megabytes. 21:41:09 for the repl 21:42:46 reprap: Assuming that you have a recent version installed (you still didn't say which one you have), you should use (make-hash) -- no arguments needed. 21:42:46 -!- jmo- [n=jmo-@c-145-243-233-83.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:27 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:48 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 21:46:29 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 21:48:33 4.something 21:49:32 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 21:50:20 is there no function to splti a string on a delimiter? 21:50:20 (split "hello there" " ") -> ("hello" "there") 21:51:26 the docs sucks 21:51:31 how do I let soemthing? 21:51:51 Let it be 21:56:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75443 21:56:31 why? 21:56:39 it works in the repl 21:56:41 not as exe 21:57:37 Looks like you typed in something different 21:57:56 If the thing you enter is not a number, string->number will return #f 21:58:13 Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 21:58:18 ? 21:58:26 i typed 12 21:59:40 if you look carefully at the error message you will notice the problem is not at (pow (string->number a) 2) 22:00:23 but i am still not sure why it does not work... 22:01:54 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 22:03:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:03:12 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:03:29 looks like it's getting more than just "12" from (read-line) 22:03:44 Maybe the newline is included 22:03:46 do a (write a) 22:04:14 it should not be included 22:05:18 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:05:23 ? 22:06:01 do a (write a) and see what is the output 22:07:00 "12" 22:07:04 then i string-number 22:07:08 just say what it is ffs 22:08:25 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@64.139.72.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:29 it makes no sense since it works int he repl 22:08:37 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 22:09:28 ah 22:09:28 "12\r" 22:09:28 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:33 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 22:09:41 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:09:46 bweaver [n=bweaver@64.139.72.146] has joined #scheme 22:15:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:15:59 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:46 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:17:51 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 22:18:29 -!- benny99 [n=bebenny@p5486EED9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:18:51 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@64.139.72.146] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:51 bweaver_ [n=bweaver@64.139.72.146] has joined #scheme 22:21:21 bweaver [n=bweaver@wr-cha-core1-wire1-cust113-113.airnetgroup.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:14 is shceme lazy or somehting? 22:23:31 ...no 22:24:21 long answer: scheme requires special forms in order to be lazy, so no. 22:25:04 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:19 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:25:49 flowerpower: no 22:25:54 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:29 well so basically the repl and exe works differently. awesome... 22:26:29 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:41 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:45 ... 22:26:45 There is lazy scheme among languages in plt 22:27:05 how do I read a file? 22:27:14 flowerpower: why differently? 22:27:29 the exampel works a s an exe 22:27:29 but not in the repl 22:27:40 yes Mr-Cat. it's implemented using special forms I hear tell. 22:28:23 reprap: it probably doesn't. what do you mean an exe though? 22:28:25 can I let several thinsg in one let? 22:28:45 repap: you may wrap calls to different reads with `with-input-from-file' or open a port explicitly and pass it to reads. 22:28:48 yes you can reprap 22:29:10 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)(b 2)) (+ a b)) 22:29:21 i jsu t want tor rea d a file to a string in one command 22:29:28 rudybot_: eval (let ((a 1)(b 2)) (+ a b)) 22:29:30 Mr-Cat: your sandbox is ready 22:29:30 Mr-Cat: ; Value: 3 22:29:55 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@wr-cha-core1-wire1-cust113-113.airnetgroup.net] has quit [] 22:30:49 usually reading a file to a string is dangerous reprap because if the file is big it will fill up memory. 22:31:36 afaik, there is no standard functions to read the whole file. You can read charachters and lines afaik 22:31:42 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:31:47 not write a moonlanderprogram 22:31:47 s/is no/are no/ 22:31:52 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:32:34 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:38 1. how do I iterate over a string? 22:32:42 2. how do i split it? 22:32:49 3. how do I strip it? 22:33:35 flowerpower: You want to read srfi.schemers.org/srfi-13/srfi-13.html 22:33:36 flowerpower: search for srfi-13 22:33:38 (string->list) is helpful for iterating over the characters of a string. 22:33:41 It doesn't split very well, though 22:33:46 (Only on characters) 22:34:05 Most schemes have splitting procedures, though 22:34:17 regexp-split would do the ticket 22:36:16 *sjamaan* prefers string-split 22:36:39 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:36:43 Save regexes for when you don't have constant strings 22:36:49 reprap: Fix your connection! 22:37:06 -!- flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:10 *Mr-Cat* wonders why there is no split in srfi-13 22:37:25 *sjamaan* too 22:37:45 string-tokenize is _almost_ it 22:37:46 there is no string-split in plt-scheme sjamaan. The performance gain is pretty minimal I'm told anyway. 22:37:56 That's true 22:38:04 string-split is from Chicken 22:38:33 But when you have constant strings coming from elsewhere, you have to ensure you escape special regex characters 22:38:35 equality for strings? 22:38:52 r5rs string=? 22:38:53 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_502 22:38:54 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5kr8lz 22:38:58 -!- bweaver_ [n=bweaver@64.139.72.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:25 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:29 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:39 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:41:11 what kind of suck langauge is this? teaching language form 85? 22:41:21 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05576C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:32 PHP is <#php> <- that way 22:41:52 form 85...? 22:41:59 clojure is that way -> 22:42:01 or haskell 22:42:04 or python 22:42:08 scheme isn't a language. 22:42:29 or any powerful expresive language that can be used for production TODAY 22:42:36 or whatever 22:42:38 pascal? 22:43:15 plt-scheme has languages. chicken-scheme has its own language. scheme is more of a guideline for writing languages than anything. 22:44:32 so usually we talk about a specific language, or what they share in common. 22:45:38 *synx* resists calling it a 'scheme' for writing languages 22:46:15 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Miranda@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:39 what si the synatx for cond? 22:48:54 hey here's something nifty I learned from python 22:49:02 reprap: When will you catch on? 22:49:05 r5rs cond 22:49:06 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_106 22:49:08 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3gogwm 22:49:09 ^ see? 22:49:13 rudybot_: eval (define zip (lambda (args) (apply map list args))) 22:49:13 synx: your sandbox is ready 22:49:36 notyouravgjoel [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-174-188.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:50:03 rudybot_: eval (zip '((2 3) '(4 5) '(6 7)))) 22:50:03 synx: error: eval:1:28: read: unexpected `)' 22:50:09 rudybot_: eval (zip '((2 3) '(4 5) '(6 7))) 22:50:09 synx: ; Value: ((2 quote quote) (3 (4 5) (6 7))) 22:50:17 ... 22:50:35 okay I swear it worked before 22:51:15 synx: You have too many quotes 22:51:29 You need just one 22:51:50 ahh got it 22:52:04 rudybot_: eval (zip '((2 3) (4 5) (6 7))) 22:52:04 synx: ; Value: ((2 4 6) (3 5 7)) 22:52:29 rudybot_: eval (zip (zip '((2 3) (4 5) (6 7)))) 22:52:29 synx: ; Value: ((2 3) (4 5) (6 7)) 22:53:04 rudybot_: eval (let ((thing '((2 3) (4 5) (6 7)))) (equal? thing (zip (zip thing)))) 22:53:04 synx: ; Value: #t 22:53:16 ergo 22:53:32 :) 22:53:33 rudybot_: eval (define unzip zip) 22:53:38 :) 22:53:43 heh 22:54:03 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:54:09 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:29 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:39 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 22:58:44 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:13 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 23:00:34 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:43 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 23:01:58 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-118-79.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:18 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/search/index.html?q=hashtable 23:02:26 hos hashtable ops dont seem to eb in my language 23:02:26 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-118-79.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:27 wtf 23:02:36 isnt the docs for the thing you download? 23:03:10 hash-table... 23:03:23 You probably need to import a library 23:03:31 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/search/index.html?q=hash-table 23:04:59 what di import yhen? 23:05:29 what do I import then? 23:06:58 and hwo do i refer ot it? 23:08:59 but can anything ame sense at all 23:09:29 is iot hash-table 23:09:29 or 23:10:29 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:43 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 23:13:29 seriosuly 23:13:29 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:42 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 23:14:00 good morning Vietnam! 23:14:46 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:15:28 heh 23:16:32 rtra_ [n=rtra@89-180-72-157.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 23:21:29 -!- reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:21:42 reprap [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 23:22:05 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:19 rtra [n=rtra@89.180.144.232] has joined #scheme 23:22:50 > (foldl + 0 '(1 2 3 4)) 23:22:50 . . car: expects argument of type ; given {1 2 3 4} 23:22:52 why!? 23:22:58 thats even an example from the docs 23:23:37 dsmith [n=dsmith@66.178.229.162] has joined #scheme 23:23:39 that does seem odd... 23:23:46 ought to work 23:24:00 The example works for me. Are you just running 'mzscheme' by itself? 23:24:04 ...Language levels?... 23:24:23 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.8.23] has joined #scheme 23:25:03 rnr6 23:25:06 -!- rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:07 rnrs 23:26:13 r5rs? 23:26:21 I don't have many languages enabled myself... 23:26:36 rudybot_: eval (foldl + 0 '(1 2 3 4 5)) 23:26:36 mejja: ; Value: 15 23:26:48 so what should i use 23:27:01 i dont care i jsut want whatever makes all normmaly used stuff available 23:27:34 I use the "Module" language in drscheme, and put "#lang scheme" or "#lang scheme/base" at the top of all my files. 23:27:46 me to 23:27:59 and now i needed a hashtable os i did (require rnrs) 23:28:43 uh... don't do that 23:28:48 ? 23:28:54 What would that do? 23:29:01 Break stuff? :) 23:29:07 (require mzlib/etc) will get you hash-table 23:29:22 sjamaan: Haven't a clue, but I think r6rs (rnrs?) has some weirdness about {}. 23:29:50 Perhaps that's the difference between mutable and immutable pairs eli was talking about a while back 23:29:57 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:30:04 nearly special time :) 23:30:04 rnrs probably has mutable pairs, while foldl wants immutable ones 23:30:09 :) 23:30:50 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:52 mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 23:32:05 rudybot_: init rnrs 23:32:06 synx: error: module: no #%module-begin binding in the module's language in: (module program rnrs) 23:32:11 so iw rote my won fold whatever, might as wellw rite my own scheme-interpreter hey? 23:32:17 aww 23:32:23 anyway how do i fold over a list updating a hashtable? 23:32:36 reprap: don't do that either. Forget rnrs. (require mzlib/etc) if you want hash tables. 23:32:41 ((hashtable-update! ht k v proc) ht) ? 23:32:52 rudybot_: eval (require rnrs) 23:32:53 synx: error: module: no #%module-begin binding in the module's language in: (module program rnrs) 23:33:04 Happy New Epoch :) 23:33:35 Happy new epoch! :) 23:33:57 Do you say that every 1000 seconds X-Scale? o.O 23:34:06 hehe 23:35:09 synx: 1234567890 was yet another pretext for a micro-party :) 23:35:44 Of course it's irrelevante in the grand scheme of things. 23:35:50 irrelevant* 23:35:52 oh, okay. 23:36:12 I can understand every 0x10000 seconds. That's almost a year. 23:36:25 synx: We use `regexp-split' in plt 23:36:30 rudybot_: eval (regexp-split #rx" +" "foo bar blah") 23:36:31 eli: error: tcp-connect: connection to tmp.barzilay.org, port 8000 failed (at step 6: Connection refused; errno=111) 23:36:36 rudybot_: init scheme 23:36:37 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 23:36:37 rudybot_: eval (regexp-split #rx" +" "foo bar blah") 23:36:38 eli: ; Value: ("foo" "bar" "blah") 23:37:02 reprap: If you're using `#lang scheme', like you should, then use (make-hash) 23:37:19 reprap: It's only about the 4th time I tell you that. 23:37:32 Listening is hard 23:37:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75453 23:37:52 sjamaan: Yes, that was the mutable-immutable difference that comes out of trying to use an r6rs library. 23:37:56 so hwo do I do the folding over a hashtable? ^^ 23:38:12 eli: Cool, I was wondering how that would work in practice 23:38:46 sjamaan: By "that" you mean using r6rs libraries from PLT? 23:39:03 reprap: What is it exactly that you want to achieve by "folding over a hashtable"? 23:39:17 eli: No, the mutable/immutable difference 23:39:35 And where it would clash, and when 23:40:30 eli: folding over a list, updating the hashtable 23:40:32 sjamaan: Well, unsurprisingly -- it means that using libraries from the side you're not on is difficult, and requires translating values to the values that the other side expects. 23:41:00 Theoretically, I understood it 23:41:06 reprap: This sounds very confused. Are you trying to walk over a list and update a hash table with each value? 23:41:29 ie count words in a list 23:41:30 reprap: (Because if this is the case, then it has nothing to do with what's commonly known as "folding".) 23:41:44 *zbigniew* keys your CAR 23:41:57 reprap: Can you *please* be a little more exact in your question? 23:42:23 reprap: For example, here is one solution to "count words in a list": 23:42:37 rudybot_: eval (define (count-words word-list) (length word-list)) 23:42:56 rudybot_: eval (count-words '(this is the scheme irc channel on freenode)) 23:42:57 eli: ; Value: 8 23:43:16 And even better solution: 23:43:26 rudybot_: eval (define count-words length) 23:43:28 rudybot_: eval (count-words '(this is the scheme irc channel on freenode)) 23:43:29 eli: ; Value: 8 23:43:31 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host60-170-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Killed by tomaw (please do not spam)] 23:43:53 tr3 [n=tr3@host60-170-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 23:44:19 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["!"] 23:44:29 eli: yes but wher eis then update insert and the rest for that? 23:44:29 no count each occurence of a word 23:44:29 ["hello" "hello" "you"] -> {"hello": 2, "you": 1} 23:47:03 eli: you see? 23:47:03 i just want an immutable hashmap i guess 23:47:03 ((hashtable-update! m k (lambda (v) (+ v 1)) 1) 23:47:03 m)) 23:47:03 ir that shoudlw ork 23:47:04 update it, then pass it 23:47:18 -!- voidpointer [n=void@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:47:35 voidpointer [n=void@189-46-75-170.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #scheme 23:47:37 reprap: This is a completely different problem than "count words in a list"... 23:47:55 (hashtable-update! a "10" (lambda (x)(+ x 2)) 1) 23:47:55 why does that looppe ndleslly? 23:48:08 reprap: With hash tables, the easiest way to to create a mutable one, update it on every word in the list, then grab the results. 23:49:08 rudybot_: init http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm 23:49:10 eli: your "http://tmp.barzilay.org/x.scm" sandbox is ready 23:49:25 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [No route to host] 23:49:27 rudybot_: eval (count-words '("hello" "hello" "you")) 23:49:28 eli: ; Value: (("hello" 2) ("you" 1)) 23:49:37 which is what im trying 23:49:57 reprap: Well, see that solution. 23:55:37 cknapp [i=43a7d772@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5355849546311e5e] has joined #scheme 23:59:59 flowerpower [n=hask@h84n3c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme