00:00:33 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-45-71.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:32 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 00:03:32 00:03:32 -!- names: ccl-logbot morphir raikov gweiqi kilimanjaro ken-p emma alaricsp melito yhara mejja borism bsmntbombdood saccade_ Modius_ pizza_ regulate synthase tizoc MichaelRaskin_ exexex athos Adamant peter_12 karsten_ amoe Mr-Cat_ jonrafkind Arelius _jeremiah sladegen dlurf Cheshire elmex rotty cracki proq orgy` bweaver annodomini langmartin underspecified isomer fishey leppie ozy` hemulen NorthStar foof brandelune Def benny tjafk1 wastrel Elly nasloc__ 00:03:32 -!- names: fbond aardvarq rtra inhortte specbot minion lisppaste araujo mhoran edw gaja_ drith djjack hark r0bby XTL mmc rmrfchik ski__ jimi_hendrix synx antoszka pchrist saccade rdd Leonidas gnomon Qaexl subversus klutometis dlouhy tabe samth pantsd offby1 sjamaan j85wilson incubot mbishop pbusser2 CaptainMorgan bombshel2er13 Khisanth Debolaz gcopenhaver ilitirit Mr_Awesome kazzmir offby1-quassel rudybot Kusanagi Adrinael elias` Poeir sad0ur z0d 00:03:32 -!- names: levi ray pizza__ Riastradh qebab jdev ineiros elf mqt yosafbridge duncanm clog wasabi__ maxote danking zbigniew aspect heat mr_uggla DuClare certainty|work ski_ Fade tarbo felipe tltstc REPLeffect eli p1dzkl vincenz mornfall bombshelter13 notByan ricky 00:04:29 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:04:39 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:06:21 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 00:10:09 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 00:11:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:11:56 -!- regulate [i=regulate@notchill.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat_@hg-ro.corbina.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- mhoran [n=mhoran@vps.matthoran.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:11:56 -!- offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 00:12:51 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:14:24 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 00:14:28 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 00:16:01 mors [n=mors@74.10.5.213] has joined #scheme 00:17:52 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:29 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:19:02 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 00:19:35 mhoran [n=mhoran@vps.matthoran.com] has joined #scheme 00:20:17 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:20:20 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 00:21:46 python's WITH statement is essentially a primitive DYNAMIC-WIND, isn't it; since it doesn't deal with continuations? 00:21:47 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:18 although they did have a problem with YIELD that they solved by fiat: only one YIELD per WITH, please 00:22:31 -!- mors [n=mors@74.10.5.213] has left #scheme 00:23:08 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:23:09 *klutometis* is constantly puzzled by half-baked languages: why do people even try? 00:24:28 melito_ [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 00:24:56 klutometis, because it's more fun to build your own shack than to polish the doors of someone else's cathedral. 00:25:17 gnomon: hilarious; what an apt summary 00:27:17 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 00:27:34 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFCB33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:47 incubot: r{n<6}ns are to PEPs what sviatoslav richter is to random monkeys 00:27:48 well, there's the language reference, a large surrounding body of PEPs, and probably various other documents of varying levels of formality 00:29:50 what's a pep? 00:30:16 a drug you take to make python bearable 00:31:05 regulate [n=pakmei@notchill.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:08 gnomon: that was so right :D 00:33:07 but sometimes, you need to bring a part of the cathedral down, and the high priest won't let you 00:38:22 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #scheme 00:38:41 Oh yeah? Well I'm gonna build my own amusement park, with blackjack, and hookers!....in fact, forget the amusement park! 00:39:22 :) 00:40:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:34 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:41 samth_away, no, DEFINE-MATCH-EXPANDER is different from DEFINE-RULE. DEFINE-MATCH-EXPANDER affects the pattern matching language; DEFINE-RULE has a (immutable and rather simple-minded) pattern matching language, and updates a database of rules. 00:47:34 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:53 louzer [n=edwin@as10160.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 00:52:37 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:53:42 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-208-204.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:05 mav_ [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:17 Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat_@hg-ro.corbina.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:37 -!- mav_ [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:04 mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:23 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:18 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-208-204.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:33 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:36 -!- mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:06 mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:26:50 meanburrito920_ [n=John@76.236.78.133] has joined #scheme 01:26:59 -!- Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat_@hg-ro.corbina.net] has left #scheme 01:31:23 -!- louzer [n=edwin@as10160.pc.nus.edu.sg] has quit [] 01:35:42 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:44:43 -!- jimi_hendrix [n=Jimi_Hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:18 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 01:47:31 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:48:12 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 01:48:54 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.123.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:51:19 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:32 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 01:55:06 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:55:07 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 01:55:56 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:56:40 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:55 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:03:13 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:55 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:27 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 02:14:43 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:09 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:26:57 -!- offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:06 -!- rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:08 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:59 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:29:12 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 02:29:44 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:55 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-69.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:59 Good evening, y'all. 02:33:10 -!- mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 02:34:09 Oh really dynamic-wind is like python's with statement? Neat! 02:35:54 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:36:25 That "only one yield per with" is wrong I think. They just have a pattern where a function that yields once can be transformed transparently into the handler for a with statement. 02:37:02 Inside a with you can yield as much as you want. It's just if you're using that special pattern you yield once, outside of the with. 02:37:29 still kind of hackish, but not outright half baked. 02:37:30 rudybot [n=luser@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:37:38 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:37:52 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 02:39:00 no with is different from dynamic-wind now that I look. 02:40:13 If you made a dynamic wind that only called post-thunk when value-thunk was no longer continuable, either from an exception or normal evaluation completed, then that would be like the with statement. 02:41:10 I'm not sure if you can test that easily though... not even guaranteed in python, just they have the yield statement as a promise to continue that may or may not be met. 02:41:17 (though if that promise becomes unreachable, that counts as an exception in the context of the with statement) 02:46:09 mav_ [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:41 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:48:10 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:52:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:52:51 Riastradh: If you're managing a database of rules you probably want a more efficient matching algorithm like rete. 02:53:07 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:55 More efficient than...? 03:04:54 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:05 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:11 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:05:34 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has left #scheme 03:05:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A060F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:50 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:12:33 hey in plt... how do you catch an exception using call-with-exception-handler? 03:16:11 When my exception handler returns any value, it's treated as an uncaught exception. 03:16:41 beats me 03:16:45 I use with-handlers, myself 03:16:49 When it returns no values raise raises an exception 03:16:58 rudybot: doc call-with-exception-handler 03:17:06 offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/exns.html#(def._((lib._scheme%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..ss)._call-with-exception-handler)) 03:17:11 Even with with-handlers, when your handler finishes it'll just continue up to the uncaught handler...? 03:17:18 naw 03:17:45 peter_12_ [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:43 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:19:09 hmm 03:19:36 with-handlers must itself use an escape continuation then inside the handler, freaky... 03:20:11 What do you expect to happen when you return from the exception handler? 03:21:21 argh continuation barriar 03:21:25 Riastradh: I want to handle the exception, and not abort the entire program. 03:21:30 I expect my wife and dog to greet me at the door 03:21:39 So handle it, and pass control to where you want it to go. 03:21:44 and say: How was your trip back from the exception handler? 03:21:57 I can't pass control, because it has a continuation barrier put up. 03:22:00 Returning a value from the exception handler means that you declined to handle it. 03:22:01 louzer [n=edwin@spnp239223.spnp.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 03:22:22 Returning no values fails too though. 03:22:59 Follow the link to the term `continuation barrier'. Read the next two paragraphs. 03:23:45 link? 03:23:53 03:24:01 Read the documentation for CALL-WITH-EXCEPTION-HANDLER. 03:24:59 oh gee I never did that 03:25:56 "If the exception handler returns a value when invoked by raise, then raise propagates the value to the previous exception handler" 03:26:09 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:26:10 I don't understand that :-| 03:26:17 But the question is, how not to return a value? You can't continue out of the handler, and you can't return no values. 03:26:25 Follow the link to the term `continuation barrier'. Read the next two paragraphs. 03:26:29 Both of those are themselves errors. 03:26:33 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:26:59 No, returning a value is not an error. It means something that apparently you didn't mean. 03:27:06 Specifically, it means that the handler has declined to handle that condition. 03:27:07 Do you want me to read documentation which is not the documentation for CALL-WITH-EXCEPTION-HANDLER then? 03:27:22 Well I don't want to decline to handle that condition. 03:27:31 So don't return from the handler. 03:27:49 Pass control to a continuation other than to that with which the handler was applied. 03:27:51 How do I not return from the handler? 03:28:33 I tried (call/cc (lambda (escape) (call-with-exception-handler (lambda (e) (escape #f))))) but it didn't work. 03:28:53 er, with a thunk stuck in there somewhere 03:29:18 wtf is a prompt anyway... is that what you want me to read? 03:30:17 What is the term, in the second paragraph after the link to `continuation barrier', for a kind of continuation that can cross continuation barriers? 03:30:28 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 03:30:47 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 03:30:52 a "migrant" continuation 03:31:07 (Hint: Follow the link to the term `continuation barrier'. Read the next two paragraphs.) 03:33:01 synx pasted "Okay, this is the second paragraph in total" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74954 03:33:15 (What I said was slightly imprecise, sorry. I meant: `...for a kind of continuation to which aborts can cross continuation barriers.') 03:33:20 I fail to see anything in there about a continuation that could cross continuation barriers. 03:33:29 aborts...whatever I don't know. 03:33:38 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:43 synx, follow the link to here: . 03:34:09 synx: for what it's worth, I find that documentation to be ... er ... rather opaque. 03:34:12 I don't know how you got to Section 9.2.1 `Raising Exceptions' by clicking on the link to `continuation barriers'. 03:34:54 Thank you Riastradh I was following http://docs.plt-scheme.org/reference/exns.html incorrectly 03:35:20 combines a ..prompt... but what is a prompt? 03:35:45 It doesn't really matter. Read up if you want to know; briefly, it is a mark on a continuation frame that allows the frame to be identified later. 03:35:50 -!- drith [i=drith@94.26.67.214] has quit [] 03:37:00 The paragraph that I was trying to point you toward, by telling you to follow the link on the word `continuation barrier', begins: `A[n] /escape continuation/ is essentially a derived concept.' 03:37:43 Okay, I can understand that. I'll use that call-with-escape-continuation thing then. Should be just the ticket. 03:37:48 rudybot: eval (call-with-escape-continuation (lambda (escape) (call-with-exception-handler escape (lambda () (+ 1 'four))))) 03:37:49 Riastradh: ; Value: #(struct:exn:fail:contract "+: expects type as 2nd argument, given: four; other arguments were: 1" #) 03:39:27 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [] 03:39:40 hehe sweet 03:39:45 Thanks so much Riastradh 03:41:08 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:41:25 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:43:03 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:43:48 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:44:39 dfeuer_ [n=David@pool-71-191-251-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:44:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:19 oh yay and I just realized I could just finalize inside the exception handler like python does... and then raise it normally 03:57:52 What if control re-enters the extent of the thunk? 03:58:24 *offby1* is struck by a revelation: Riastradh == Sherlock Holmes 03:58:50 Think about it: the pipe ... the rented rooms in Baker Street ... the fondness for functional programming ... it all fits! 03:58:55 Been colluding with klutometis? 03:59:09 Riastradh: seriously, no: did he say something along those lines? 03:59:20 fplive [n=user@121.133.77.232] has joined #scheme 03:59:25 *arcfide* imagines brilliant curses for Windows and Serial COM ports. 03:59:28 He's been convinced of the equation for months, perhaps years. 03:59:30 If so, that's either genuinely scary ... or else I saw him say it, remembered it _un_consciously, but forgot it consciously. 03:59:46 Riastradh: I'll have to consult further with him on the matter. 04:00:24 How did you forget something consciously? That's quite a feat: it is usually very difficult to carry out a conscious decision to forget something. 04:00:29 Independent discovery ... or inadvertent plagiarism? Tonight's episode studies the infamous "My Sweet Lord" lawsuit 04:00:45 How hard can it be to grab a file descriptor from Windows and then use it to make a new port in Scheme? I mean, really, this isn't CALL/CC or something! 04:00:45 *offby1* raises the Palm of Slapping 04:00:47 you knew what I meant 04:01:09 arcfide: eww. 04:01:14 I sympathize, but only kinda. 04:01:41 offby1: only kinda? 04:01:48 yeah. 04:01:53 It is Windows, after all. 04:01:55 I suspect you brought it on yourself. 04:01:57 Well, all this would have been much easier if they had just let me deploy the system on the linux machines here. 04:02:01 ah 04:02:04 it's for work. 04:02:08 But noo...:-) 04:02:15 *offby1* removes the sympathy restraint 04:02:33 Yes, I have a beautiful, working OpenBSD implementation, and someone could port the Linux stuff easily enough, but the Windows stuff is just weird. 04:02:44 https://synx.us.to/code/with.ss 04:02:46 Though, remarkably, yes, easier in principle than I thought, in practice, it is the little things. 04:02:58 ^^^ that's my best approximation of what the python with statement is. Nothing special really... 04:03:24 And no I have no idea what happens if the finalizer continues back into the handler. 04:03:43 offby1: The reality of the problem, however, is a total lack of a standard, useful Bluetooth interface among all the vendors. Serial communication is the closest thing to it, but even then, it's quite different on Windows than Mac/Linux/BSD. 04:03:45 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:03:47 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:11 *offby1* backs away slowly 04:04:13 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-117-19.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:04:21 just _thinking_ about that will make my head hurt, I know it 04:04:23 In brighter news, however, my sockets library is very nearly complete. 04:04:25 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-117-19.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:29 Your indentation is wrong, synx. Also, what happens if control exits non-locally from the thunk? 04:04:37 implementing bluetooth drivers in scheme 04:04:39 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 04:04:47 arcfide: you are trying to use bluetooth with windows? good luck with that. 04:04:51 wastrel: No, just accessing bluetooth devices through Serial ports. 04:05:00 (`Handler' is the wrong noun for the argument you have named thus.) 04:05:30 karsten_: I am just avoiding the bluetooth stuff an relying on the drivers ability to associate with a COM port to perform serial communication to a bluetooth device. 04:05:53 It's not a thunk Riastradh. Perhaps I should use procedure? 04:06:03 Oh, yes. 04:06:11 Anyways, enough ranting from me. I've put my calls into tech support, and now I'm going to bed. 04:06:12 I did have the handler exit non-locally, as is done often in python, and it just expects you to continue back in order to reach the finalizer. 04:06:20 Good night, everyone. 04:06:31 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-69.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep?"] 04:06:33 Does Python expect that? 04:06:41 In python it somehow detects when such a continuation has gone out of reach, and continues back just long enough to raise an exception, thus hitting the finalizer... I'm not sure how to do that though. 04:07:14 Anyway, why do you want to close the resource when a condition is signalled? 04:07:40 What if control re-enters the body because when an enclosing condition handler gave the user a debugger prompt, the user selected the appropriate restart to retry the computation? 04:07:57 (when (= (references-to return) 1) (raise-in-continuation return 'broken-promise)) or something 04:08:37 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:09:23 The idea is even if a condition is raised, you still want to close the file, even if a higher scope exception handler handles the condition. 04:09:28 Riastradh: than naively comparing against each rule in the DB (not sure if that's what the MIT scheme code is doing, haven't looked at it yet) 04:09:28 Why? 04:09:39 Of course if nothing handles it the process dies and all files close, mutexes unlock, etc. 04:10:05 But if something does, you don't want that open file hanging out in limbo. 04:10:46 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:11:14 foof, well, the more important issue which I mentioned is that the database might be sensitive to the order of DEFINE-RULE forms, which makes the program hard to reason about, which is a worse fate than slowness. 04:11:44 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:11:47 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:12:05 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@195.159.114.206] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:13:44 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 04:13:48 Sure, and expert systems are notoriously hard to reason about. 04:14:20 foof, fortunately, the code in MIT Scheme is written so that it is relatively easy to swap out different pattern database implementations. Rete is overkill, but it turns out, in fact, that using a slightly cleverer prefix-sharing representation of the pattern database is slower than a linear `does this match? does that match? does the other match?' for this application. 04:14:26 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 04:14:33 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #scheme 04:16:45 I guess that would depend on the number of patterns and how much they share prefixes. 04:17:32 maodun [n=stopgo@c-76-102-148-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:18:15 There aren't enough rules in this case to make it worth the trouble. (There are 175 rules spread across four or so separate databases.) 04:18:25 (...for the i386 back end.) 04:19:07 But rete would definitely be overkill since you'd always remove the "fact" immediately after inserting it, and just building and removing the rete nodes would be more work than checking prefixes. 04:20:16 (What I didn't discover, and what I now wish I had experimented more with (had I time), is whether there are any rules that are shadowed.) 04:20:31 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye now"] 04:22:41 That's important, and its lack is something that bothers me more about my MATCH implementation than any performance concerns. A good compiler can warn about dead code, but I don't think any do. 04:23:15 how to run kanren on PLT Scheme? 04:23:54 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 04:25:36 latingirl [i=latingir@189.202.78.124.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #scheme 04:25:56 hallo someone from switzerland!! 04:26:13 Does this have to do with Scheme, latingirl? 04:26:50 hello 04:27:05 where are u from ? 04:27:14 Axioplase [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #scheme 04:27:31 I'm from Schemeland, and I'm waiting to be persuaded that you are too. 04:27:39 ditto 04:27:50 schemeland ?? 04:27:56 Riastradh: if "she" asks us to do her homework, though, I'll be convinced :-| 04:27:57 sorry i cant undertand 04:28:08 louzer: (require (planet dfriedman/miniKanren:1:1/minikanren)) 04:28:17 Try another channel, latingirl, perhaps #freenode. 04:28:26 Debolaz [n=debolaz@195.159.114.206] has joined #scheme 04:28:26 why ?? 04:28:31 poof 04:28:40 thanks foof 04:28:45 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:48 *foof* puts on his robe and his wizard hat 04:28:51 or, as twb says: "plonk" 04:28:55 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 04:28:56 You have thirty seconds to persuade me that I ought to answer your latest question, latingirl. 04:29:10 no ops in this channel? 04:29:15 why i have to do that? 04:29:38 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Riastradh 04:29:44 *offby1* nods gravely 04:29:46 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-235-220.bos.east.verizon.net] has been kicked from #scheme 04:29:48 -!- Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh 04:29:50 behold... the powah 04:30:14 Sorry, I forgot to ask for objections. Any objections? 04:30:23 your nose, sir, is as sharp as ever. 04:30:26 latingirl [i=latingir@189.202.78.124.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #scheme 04:30:34 hello 04:31:13 -!- latingirl [i=latingir@189.202.78.124.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #scheme 04:34:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:18 latingirl [i=latingir@189.202.78.124.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #scheme 04:34:24 hallo 04:34:34 hello there latingirl 04:34:50 Riastradh: I've searched my logs, and as far as I can tell, _I_ am the only one to have discovered that you're really Sherlock Holmes. 04:34:59 latingirl, this is a channel about the Scheme programming language. Please find another channel if that's not what you're interested in. 04:34:59 no trace of klutometis having said so. 04:35:39 foof have read reasoned schemer? 04:35:53 s/have/have you/ 04:36:07 i cant run anything in it 04:36:31 hallo north star 04:36:31 louzer: yes 04:36:41 when i type (run #f (q) fail) i get "reference to an identifier before its definition: fail" 04:36:46 Fun book, not as good as the first two. 04:37:12 yeah i get that feeling 04:37:16 too 04:37:17 ... gotta go to class, bbl 04:37:24 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:38:08 -!- mav_ [n=mav@pool-68-162-148-33.pitt.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 04:39:54 Riastradh, I don't suppose ops privileges include being able to kick someone from the server entirely? 04:40:08 They do not. One must talk with the network operators in #freenode for that. 04:40:14 fair enough. 04:40:41 more's the pity. 04:40:49 but I think you can ban 'em from the channel, which is halfway in between 04:40:59 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:06 and I can tell my client to ignore /msg from them. 04:41:10 handy, that. 04:42:03 *offby1* nods gravely 04:42:36 -!- latingirl [i=latingir@189.202.78.124.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #scheme 04:44:00 foof [n=user@naist-wavenet126-001.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:45:30 IRC during class foof? 04:45:32 for shame. 04:45:33 That was a quick clas, foof. 04:45:35 ;) 04:45:35 Class, even. 04:45:37 Pooh. 04:45:46 -!- fplive [n=user@121.133.77.232] has left #scheme 04:46:05 I saw what you did there, Riastradh. Do you give out checks like Knuth? 04:46:21 *Riastradh* blinks. 04:46:47 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_reward_check 04:46:54 No, I make too many typos for that. 04:47:22 up to $81.92 yet? 04:47:35 well, shoot. 04:48:06 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:48:42 anyway, I guess you caught the error before I did, so you'd just be sending yourself a check. 05:00:30 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:33 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 05:08:05 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:10:19 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176215110.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:18:12 achermov [n=Achermov@131.247.152.4] has joined #scheme 05:19:15 I wrote myself a check, but it bounced. 05:19:44 The money I gave myself could never be cashed, so I lost it all. 05:20:07 To punish myself for stealing money from myself the bank charged me $50 for bouncing the check. 05:20:14 $50 not to the injured party, but to the bank. 05:20:26 And that's the guilt industry in a nutshell. 05:22:56 Is there a way to define the value of an argument in relation to the value of another argument in the same list? 05:25:23 ... can I get some help here? 05:25:56 0_o 05:26:15 can't say I understood your question 05:26:45 So, I've defined a higher order function, that takes a function as its first argument and an integer as its second 05:26:58 Now I'm calling said higher order function 05:27:01 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-76-102-148-127.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:27:04 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176198003.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:08 ("this list is the best because it has two arguments" "this list is the best because the previous argument was convincing") 05:27:11 besides just passing the value twice, achermov? 05:27:26 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:27:33 rudybot: eval (define (func l second) (display (format "List: ~s Second element: ~s~n" l second))) 05:27:38 achermov: ok 05:27:39 The function that is to be the FIRST argument needs to know the value of the second argument in order to make itself properly 05:27:54 rudybot: eval (let ((l '(1 2 3))) (func l (cadr l))) 05:27:54 synx: yeah. I have rules I have to follow. It's for a course. 05:27:55 synx: ; stdout: "List: (1 2 3) Second element: 2\n" 05:28:27 (let ((second 2)) (hof (lambda () (func second)) second)) ... ? 05:28:38 still don't really understand. 05:28:47 *achermov* shrugs 05:28:49 Yeah what offby1 said... 05:29:08 It's ok. The solution to this problem IS online. I could look it up and see what the hell I'm doing wrong. I just thought I'd give it a go. 05:29:12 Thanks, gents. 05:29:13 You could also have your "higher order" function call the function you pass with the argument. 05:29:16 (define (hof f x) (f x)) ? or (hof f (f 2)) ? 05:29:17 *offby1* ain't no gent 05:29:33 s/gents/ladies and gents/; 05:29:37 pardon 05:29:42 -!- achermov [n=Achermov@131.247.152.4] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:29:42 People say I'm a gentleman but never a gentle man. 05:29:52 ah hah hah 05:29:53 you're lucky gnomon isn't here 05:30:35 ... 05:30:52 why, would he grab you with his tentacles? 05:31:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSAu3BOgZ1A 05:33:59 haha 05:34:49 Damn "it has been said" I gotta remember that. 05:35:19 peter_12_ [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 05:48:27 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@76.236.78.133] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 05:50:33 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:21 -!- underspecified 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#scheme 14:47:59 -!- karsten_ [n=karsten@p57BBA63F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:56:22 tr3 [n=tr3@host28-43-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 14:58:00 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8767B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:04:10 newb12345 [n=x@DNab434dec.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 15:04:20 does paredit not have a command for swap these two sexps ? 15:04:31 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:04:48 if my cursor is |, I want "(a b c) | (1 2 3)" -> "(1 2 3) | (a b c)" 15:06:45 C-c C-M-t perhaps? 15:07:53 I think it's just C-M-t 15:07:54 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:13:14 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable087.62-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:43 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:13:44 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:15 "C-M-t runs the command transpose-sexps" 15:14:33 If it copies Emacs, then you're right. 15:15:06 Riastradh: sorry, i was confused about what define-rule did 15:15:21 where are those rules used? 15:21:39 -!- Mr-Cat_ [i=ejabberd@jabbus.org] has left #scheme 15:22:10 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 15:28:54 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:29:33 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:31:28 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:35:01 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEEBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:24 WEEKEND! 15:48:34 samth, they're used in the part of the compiler that turns RTL instructions into LAP instructions. 15:48:57 newb12345, paredit indeed does not have a command to transpose two S-expressions precisely because Emacs already does. 15:49:00 Riastradh: can you point me to the source? 15:49:11 i'm interested in seeing how it's using the pattern matching? 15:49:22 or should I be looking in the define-rule implementation? 15:49:31 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 15:50:27 The implementation of the pattern matcher is not especially illuminating; it actually does basically use the (SET! STATEMENT-RULES (LET ((SR STATEMENT-RULES)) (LAMBDA (X) (MATCH X ( ) (ELSE (SR X] idiom. 15:52:15 Here's one place where the rule database is used: . 15:52:17 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/aamp4d 15:52:33 dlurf [n=no@80.251.192.2] has joined #scheme 15:53:34 (DEFINE-RULE STATEMENT ...) basically expands to a call to ADD-STATEMENT-RULE!. 16:03:39 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:05:36 ok 16:06:17 what pattern matching language is that using? 16:06:58 It's very straightforward; read it as quasiquotation with a funny unquote notation, namely (? []), where maps the value in that position to non-false values to which the variable will be bound (false values make the match fail). 16:10:37 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #scheme 16:10:43 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host28-43-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["torneṛ"] 16:10:55 -!- synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 16:13:46 Woe 16:17:43 Sorry. (todays advice; stay away from notebooks with toy sized keyboards) 16:20:44 mejja: Suffered an EeePC failure today? 16:21:28 i got a lenovo s10e, but my GF has taken it :| 16:21:28 -!- pizza_ [n=pizza@66.152.246.202] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:38 antoszka: Close. It's an acer aspire one. 16:25:12 mejja: Ah. 16:25:46 mejja: Luckily I got myself an HP mini-note, which has a full-size keyboard basically (and very comfortable). 16:28:14 pizza_ [n=pizza@66.152.246.202] has joined #scheme 16:29:19 -!- higepon304 [n=taro@FL1-122-133-100-227.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:29:49 -!- newb12345 [n=x@DNab434dec.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:25 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.235.176.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:30 exexex_ [n=chatzill@88.235.176.236] has joined #scheme 16:34:32 -!- exexex_ is now known as exexex 16:36:14 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053C8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:39:09 mejja: I love my aspire one 16:39:19 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.157.195] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:19 the keyboard is large enough that I can touch type on it 16:39:49 the dell something or other mini that was sitting next to it at Microcenter had a keyboard that was probably an inch narrower. Impossible. 16:40:35 what is the difference between a procedure and a function? 16:40:59 morphir, function isn't a notion in scheme 16:41:28 its a functional language :D 16:41:40 ok 16:43:14 well... the way I see it right here and now is: a function can consist of one or several procedures (lambdas) 16:43:40 example code? 16:44:43 Like Cheshire said, function really isn't a scheme notion, unless by function you mean procedure. 16:45:09 morphir: do you have any code that produces what you would like to call a function? 16:45:35 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-180-27-46.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 16:45:43 j85wilson: hmm 16:45:57 I dont 16:46:12 at least not right now 16:47:10 what does (lambda(a b .(c d)) ...evaluate too ? just lambda(a b c d) ? and why... because i dont see why isnt the logical value shouldnt be an error in this case 16:48:11 rudybot: eval (lambda(a b .(c d)) 16:48:11 *offby1: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 16:48:14 there's your answer. 16:48:22 good job, offby1, beat me to it. 16:48:30 rudybot: eval (lambda (a b . (c d))) 16:48:33 j85wilson: error: eval:1:0: lambda: bad syntax in: (lambda (a b c d)) 16:48:39 many questions are difficult to answer, but "what does X evaluate to" is pretty easy. 16:49:04 rudybot: eval (lambda(a b .(c d)) (list d c b a)) 16:49:04 *offby1: ; Value: # 16:49:15 rudybot: eval ((lambda(a b .(c d)) (list d c b a)) 'one 'two 'fwee 'fowah) 16:49:15 *offby1: ; Value: (fowah fwee two one) 16:49:19 .... 16:49:26 ,... 16:49:31 !... 16:49:32 why does this evaluate? 16:49:39 rudybot: eval this 16:49:40 j85wilson: error: eval:1:0: this: use of a class keyword is not in a class in: this 16:49:43 its a constant list 16:49:46 because many smart people spent years slaving over Scheme systems to make it evaluate. 16:50:07 let's see if it's a PLT-ism. 16:50:09 rudybot: init r5rs 16:50:09 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 16:50:12 rudybot: eval ((lambda(a b .(c d)) (list d c b a)) 'one 'two 'fwee 'fowah) 16:50:12 *offby1: ; Value: {fowah fwee two one} 16:50:19 Tankado: OK, it's not a PLT-ism. 16:50:21 no, it works on my scheme too :p 16:50:30 rudybot: yow 16:50:30 j85wilson: ? 16:50:36 leppie: yours is R6RS, though, isn't it? 16:50:40 yes 16:50:46 lets try ikarus 16:50:51 leppie: you haven't written a real Scheme until there's an IRC bot written in it :) 16:50:53 get to work. 16:51:06 works too 16:51:10 offby1, if you made a conversation and a yow module for rudybot, he would be a complete sarahbot replacement. 16:51:11 offby1 : i am more interested to know why there can be an application after "." in the var lambda arguments i thought there could only be a symbol there 16:51:26 i have written one, but it just connects, and does nothing... 16:51:38 j85wilson: sarahbot is (or was) frighteningly smart, what with AI and all. That sounds like a lotta work. 16:51:49 j85wilson: however, I hear that rudybot is open source, so if _you_ cared to contribute ... 16:51:50 rudybot: source 16:51:51 *offby1: http://github.com/offby1/rudybot/tree/e6ce1790b215f5e19bcb1bcc46fd7e8478c7e7f7 16:51:52 rudybot: eval (lambda (a . (b . (c . (d . '())))) (list a b c d)) 16:51:52 j85wilson: error: eval:1:29: lambda: not an identifier, identifier with default, or keyword at: () in: (lambda (a b c d quote ()) (list a b c d)) 16:52:34 rudybot: eval (lambda (a . (b . (c d))) (list a c d b)) 16:52:34 j85wilson: ; Value: # 16:52:53 you will find the answer in the lexical syntax, you are simply writing a constant list in 'longhand' 16:53:02 indeed. 16:53:12 but it does look funny :) 16:53:23 Tankado: it is not an application, but just more list. 16:53:51 argh, why won't it get above freezing? 16:54:10 (a) get expanded to (a . ()) by the reader normally 16:54:17 i never knew you could put a specific list as an argument 16:54:35 rudybot: init scheme 16:54:37 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 16:54:48 rudybot: eval (define (a b (c d (e f))) 'golly) 16:54:48 *offby1: error: eval:1:13: define: not an identifier, identifier with default, or keyword for procedure argument at: (c d (e f)) in: (define (a b (c d (e f))) (quote golly)) 16:54:54 oh, I thought you could do that 16:55:28 the same thing should work in any scheme, if it does not, the scheme is broken 16:55:59 ok thanks i guess not that i completly understand the logic behind letting that thing happend but ok.. 16:56:51 just remember (a b) is shorthand for (a . (b . ())) 16:57:09 i know that 16:57:19 and the argument list for a lambda is just that, a list. 16:57:19 but the same goes here 16:57:20 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:57:29 yeah i understand now thanks 16:57:52 i wonder if that pattern could be matched with syntax-rules/syntax-case 16:58:42 -!- pjb3_ [n=pjb3@72-57-249-251.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [] 16:59:05 off course it can, but it will match what the 'shorthand' looks like 16:59:12 yeah 16:59:25 after the reader gets ahold of them, they are the exact same thing. 17:00:53 rudybot: eval (define ((((quadratic a) b) c) x) (+ (* a x x) (* b x) c)) 17:01:20 lol 17:02:31 rudybot: eval ((((quadratic 2) 3) 4) 5) 17:02:32 mejja: ; Value: 69 17:03:52 that I cant do :p 17:03:52 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:59 really? 17:04:25 &message: "invalid syntax" 17:04:39 well R6RS 17:05:25 huzzah the temperature has reached freezing! Time to go to work! 17:05:35 bye bye schemers! 17:05:44 i guess i could add it if the R6RS people can decide if it's ok to extend builtin forms/procs as long as they do not conflict with the spec 17:06:27 what scheme are you writing? 17:06:47 Turbo Scheme 9000 17:06:48 IronScheme, uses psyntax, from Ikarus 17:06:54 mkay cool 17:07:01 Cheshire: that name was taken :p 17:07:18 run on .NET 17:07:46 DeathScheme 9000? http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/green/gfd34/art/bloopers.html 17:08:02 pjb3 [n=pjb3@209.26.148.9] has joined #scheme 17:08:38 actually through some historical data I discover the most successfull name for new Scheme would be: Spider Scheme 17:09:07 That is very true 17:09:48 i posted some pictures of spiders on my blog, got 12000 hits in 1 day 17:09:53 people like spiders 17:10:09 Did you know: Spiders are the new black 17:10:20 leppie: sorry, i had it on auto-reload 17:11:58 unfortunately it did not attarct many new schemers :( 17:12:47 saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:12:53 *leppie* wonders why IRC clients in this day and age, does not come with builtin autocorrect... 17:13:05 you have to post pictures of functions to attract schemers 17:13:12 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #scheme 17:13:55 I prefer REPL sessions :) 17:14:29 I cant write to save my life 17:15:37 i wish i could 17:15:50 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #scheme 17:15:58 i wish i could touch type, but i still need to look at my fingers all the time 17:17:59 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:19:08 that's because qwerty doesn't lend itself to touch typing 17:19:23 really? 17:19:38 when I switched to dvorak, my hands stopped moving around 17:20:01 proq, likewise but I thought it was just because I learned bad habits for qwerty 17:20:48 sure, but also because the vowels are on both sides of the keyboard 17:20:54 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:21 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:28:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:33 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:34:13 i bet you cant type qwerty as fast as I can :p 17:34:50 just that 'word' 17:37:56 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEEBA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:07 Ragnaroek [i=54a669a1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c5ea2122b0320ed1] has joined #scheme 17:40:48 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a669a1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c5ea2122b0320ed1] has quit [Client Quit] 17:44:05 leppie: how's your "aoeui"? 17:44:14 aeioiu 17:44:16 :p 17:44:45 oops i read wrong too :| 17:45:03 you tricked me! 17:55:53 -!- edw [n=user@poseur.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:58 edw [n=user@poseur.com] has joined #scheme 17:57:14 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 18:01:52 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A1A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:05:06 ejs [n=eugen@198-197-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:11 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:16:03 -!- pjb3 [n=pjb3@209.26.148.9] has quit [] 18:23:20 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #scheme 18:25:15 haha 18:25:22 figures I'd find another Dvorak typist here 18:27:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:28:19 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:33:59 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:26 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:44:08 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:45:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:45:08 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-180-27-46.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:46:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:46:19 benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 19:08:57 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:12:48 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:15:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@198-197-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:18:51 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 19:26:55 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A1A49.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:45 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-69-89.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:35:05 -!- Def [n=joe@71.238.45.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:37:48 Mr-Cat_ [n=Mr-Cat_@hg-ro.corbina.net] has joined #scheme 19:39:03 gahhh. they brought the wrong pizza :( 19:39:31 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-170-127.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:04 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-241-170-127.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:40:26 :-o 19:40:34 :) 19:40:36 -!- pizza_ [n=pizza@66.152.246.202] has left #scheme 19:43:01 wee, more dvorak typists \o/ 19:43:09 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 19:43:09 aeoui! 19:44:23 i think a keyboard for dyslexics like us :p 19:45:45 the biggest problem I have with using dvorak, is that my job often forces me to use qwerty heh 19:47:33 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-69-89.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:48:41 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:52:08 ejs [n=eugen@123-96-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 19:52:32 qebab: how's that: kvms? 19:52:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:57:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@123-96-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:04:21 kvms? 20:06:11 -!- Guest57235 [n=m@dslb-088-067-045-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:07:00 qebab: keyboard switches 20:17:59 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #scheme 20:19:17 forcer [n=forcer@e177140184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:20:31 -!- dfeuer_ [n=David@pool-71-191-251-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:20:44 dfeuer [n=David@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 20:21:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:22:25 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:14 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:40:19 saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:44:52 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e177140184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:51 -!- gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #scheme 20:50:03 klutometis: most of the users I help with their private computers don't like it when I add keyboard layouts to them :p 20:53:50 saccade__ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:54:19 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:58:34 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 20:58:47 tizoc` [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 20:58:52 forcer [n=forcer@e179193203.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:59:08 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:59:52 Dvorak's layout looks interesting 21:00:25 I wonder, whether anobydo does research in this field nowadays. 21:00:38 s/anybydo/anybody/ 21:00:59 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 21:01:10 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:01:17 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:01:33 -!- tizoc [n=user@unaffiliated/tizoc] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:05 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:04:51 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@BRAIN-AND-COG-THREE-TWELVE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:07:44 jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.156] has joined #scheme 21:08:04 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:41 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:12:34 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-46-151.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 21:15:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:07 X-Scale [i=email@89.181.30.183] has joined #scheme 21:21:58 Nobody does because Dvorak already figured it out :| 21:22:36 but you could look into 'one handed dvorak' that seems where most people are messing with. 21:22:59 no paid research that's for sure. it's all about sculpted plastic not anything novel 21:36:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-13.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:40:56 -!- jmo- [n=jmo-@83.233.243.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:44:07 -!- tizoc` is now known as tizoc 21:47:36 fishey [n=fisheyss@ool-4573344b.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:49:29 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:53:58 meh, I need a good persistent objects system 21:54:18 find myself implementing a sql translator to do so. 21:54:36 uno question: > (cons '+ '(2 3)) 21:54:36 (+ 2 3) 21:54:55 but, if I do: > (cons + '(2 3)) 21:55:30 I would expect the + to actually sum the two numbers 21:55:34 but it does not. 21:55:48 instead, I get: (# 2 3) 21:56:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-46-151.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:57:24 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host100.190-137-19.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 21:58:22 synx: Did you look at plt's snooze? 21:59:11 Actually, I don't know, whether it's what you're looking for. i've just searched planet for 'persistence' 21:59:46 morphir: Cons is just going to make a pair from a function and a list 22:00:06 rudybot: eval (apply + '(2 3)) 22:00:07 Mr-Cat_: ; Value: 5 22:00:23 You're probably looking for 'apply' 22:00:40 Mr-Cat_: but how could I make it execute? 22:00:57 Execute what? 22:01:47 Mr-Cat_: I mean, how can I make it evaluate? 22:02:00 how can I make it do what I want? :P 22:02:22 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:22 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:22 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:52 morphir: Well, I don't quite get what do you want, unfortunately? Do you want to eval the code, that you've geterated? 22:03:11 morphir: (define foo (cons '+ '(2 3))) 22:03:14 hmm 22:03:16 morphir: (eval foo) 22:03:19 rudybot: eval (eval '(+ 2 3)) 22:03:20 aspect: ; Value: 5 22:03:32 rudybot: (define foo (cons '+ '(2 3))) 22:03:33 proq: ? 22:03:39 rudybot: eval (define foo (cons '+ '(2 3))) 22:03:47 rudybot: eval (eval foo) 22:03:48 proq: ; Value: 5 22:04:34 aha! 22:04:49 jao [n=user@64.Red-83-33-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:05:11 no one has introduced me to eval yet. 22:05:34 morphir meet eval, eval meet morphir 22:05:46 morphir: Some people consider 'eval' being bad style 22:06:18 oh. Well, some people do drugs too :D 22:06:28 So, 'no one' could think, that 'eval' is as bad as 'goto' is 22:06:30 that's bad style 22:06:41 drugs? 22:06:43 That's very silly. 22:06:57 Neither GOTO nor EVAL is `bad style' in isolation. 22:07:25 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:07:38 goto was very useful for me, when the compiler used it to generate faster code 22:07:48 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.156] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:07:49 Both can be used appropriately, and both can be abused. 22:07:51 fortunately that compiler is gone 22:08:59 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:09:06 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:09:40 For example, in C, there is a paucity of loop constructs. Some loops are most clearly expressed using labels and `goto', rather than an elaborate construction of while loops, breaks, continues, and boolean flags. 22:10:44 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:10:47 And afaik goto is used in linux kernel to implement raii 22:11:22 `goto' is used in many C programs; it is used all over the Linux kernel, I'm sure, just as it is used all over the BSD kernels. 22:11:32 I don't think, that anti-goto zealots still exist 22:11:58 EVAL is often mistaken for structuring data according to the calling program's environment model. What is confusing about EVAL is that it sometimes accidentally works for this purpose, and this deludes novices into believing that it always works, and is intended for, this purpose. 22:12:01 They should be extinct 22:12:55 Riastradh: Sorry, I don't quite get the Idea. What does 'structuring data according to the calling program's environment model' is? 22:13:17 Some novices expect that in (let ((x 5)) (eval user-input)), the user input should have access to x. 22:14:36 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.181.30.183] has left #scheme 22:15:17 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-45-71.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:15:29 Mr-Cat_: actually they do. In C programming that is. But how does that relate to my (eval) ? 22:16:17 morphir: I believe, It does not relate to eval. Sorry, If I've confused you with offtopic. 22:16:52 Riastradh: In fact, I've heard some common lispers trolling forums with 'power of eval', but I've never come to use eval in scheme in practice... 22:17:47 *Mr-Cat_* is ashamed of his ignorance ang is gone to read r6rs libraries, section 16 22:21:21 *ASau* has to use EVALUATE in his Forth programs. 22:21:49 Vaeshir [n=zane@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 22:21:53 Constructing proper strings is fun. :) 22:25:44 Riastradh: goto is also used in the implementation of TinyScheme. 22:30:31 Hm... both r5rs and r6rs suggest using eval with 2 arguments... 22:30:39 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 22:30:52 rudybot: eval (eval '(+ 999 998 997)) 22:30:52 Mr-Cat_: ; Value: 2994 22:32:07 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (eval '(+ a 1))) 22:32:07 Mr-Cat_: error: reference to undefined identifier: a 22:32:32 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (eval '(+ a 1), (interaction-evironment))) 22:32:32 Mr-Cat_: error: eval:1:27: unquote: not in quasiquote in: (unquote (interaction-evironment)) 22:32:41 agrr 22:32:51 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (eval '(+ a 1) (interaction-evironment))) 22:32:51 Mr-Cat_: error: reference to undefined identifier: interaction-evironment 22:35:31 rudybot: eval (define a 1) 22:35:45 rudybot: eval (eval 'a) 22:35:45 Mr-Cat_: ; Value: 1 22:35:53 I don't get it 22:36:01 'eval does not 22:36:06 rrrr 22:37:03 'eval' does understand toplevel bindings, made with 'define', but does not understand bindings, made with 'let' 22:37:11 Can anyone explain that? 22:38:17 xdaadx [i=xda@94.26.67.214] has joined #scheme 22:39:14 *Mr-Cat_* looks at 'eval' suspiciously 22:40:38 you should be more suspicious if you could see lexical bindings 22:41:03 visibility of toplevel bindings is ill-defined too, iirc 22:41:17 Especially in the absence of a proper module system. 22:41:42 maybe if you can describe what you're trying to do, a better approach could be shown 22:42:04 aspect: I'm just trying 'eval' 22:42:19 rudybot: eval (let ((s (cons + '(2 3)))) (apply (car s) (cdr s))) 22:42:19 aspect: ; Value: 5 22:43:14 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f09:979:0:0:0:14] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:15 -!- ray [i=ray@unaffiliated/ray] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:15 -!- vincenz [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:15 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:35 aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has joined #scheme 22:43:50 In fact, that's morphir, who is doing something with eval. I've just found, that I don't know, how to use 'eval' properly 22:44:29 when the time comes, you will know, grasshopper 22:44:39 btw EVAL is pretty useless 22:44:55 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 ray [i=ray@unaffiliated/ray] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 vincenz [n=vincenz@li23-146.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 22:44:55 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f09:979:0:0:0:14] has joined #scheme 22:45:15 X-Scale [i=email@89.181.30.183] has joined #scheme 22:47:08 Mr-Cat_, EVAL with one argument is ill-defined. The R5RS gives you an environment that contains all the bindings defined in the R5RS; the R6RS gives you several more. `Top-level bindings', without qualification or context, is also ill-defined. 22:47:21 Cheshire: I was gonna evaluate the output of (cons '+ '(2 3))) 22:47:35 minut one parent 22:47:43 minus 22:47:44 :P 22:47:52 just use (+ 2 3) 22:47:57 yeah yeah 22:48:00 I know 22:48:11 but what if you did. cons? 22:48:13 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-235-253.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 22:48:50 morphir, you could write an interpreter for whatever language (+ 2 3) is an expression of 22:48:51 morphir, what's the problem you are trying to solve, of which you believe evaluating the value of (CONS '+ '(2 3)) to be a subproblem? 22:48:57 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 22:49:03 morphir, like an arithmetic language is really eas 22:49:03 easy 22:52:43 Riastradh: So, in r5rs it's beter to pass (interaction-environment), if I want toplevel bindings to be accissible in eval and (null-environment 5) or (scheme-report-environment 5) otherwise? 22:53:50 No, Mr-Cat_. Use (INTERACTION-ENVIRONMENT) if you want to get approximately what a user at the nearest REPL would get; note that the procedure is optional, and not clearly defined. 22:54:06 I repeat: `top-level binding', without qualification or context, is ill-defined. 22:54:36 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 22:54:51 Riastradh: 'qualification or context'? What do you mean? 22:55:43 You need to say more. 22:56:08 For example, in the R6RS, it is meaningful to talk about `the top-level bindings of a library'. 22:56:27 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:45 And in r5rs? 22:57:06 It is not meaningful to talk about `the top-level bindings' alone, without the qualifier `of a library'. 22:57:28 The R5RS is vaguer on the subject of context for top-level bindings. 22:57:56 compiling plt.... sure spending a lot of time on whatever 'scribblings' are. 23:00:29 Riastrash: You mean, that in r5rs one should 'load' stuff, while in r6rs everything is divided into libraries? 23:01:29 And it's not obvious, whether to treat 'load'ed stuff as top-level or not? 23:02:15 One should never use the LOAD procedure from the R5RS. It was a mistake. The R5RS provides no way to organize programs into files or into separate top-level environments. 23:04:02 Riastradh: So, doest that mean, that one should use implementation-specific module systems in r5rs, but not 'load'? 23:04:30 Yes. 23:05:08 In fact, I've found 'load' useful in small programs, but if the program grows large it really becomes difficult to track loads 23:05:16 That does not mean that one must write all code to be implementation-specific, however. 23:05:25 LOAD and EVAL are my two big grudges against r5rs :) 23:05:49 Why EVAL, aspect? 23:06:34 the underspecification of its behaviour with respect to environments 23:07:19 What do you think is missing that is particular to EVAL? 23:07:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 23:09:16 [1~ 23:09:20 *gnomon* facepalms 23:09:22 as I recall, the *-environment procedures don't give any useful guarantees 23:09:57 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:15 What `useful guarantees' do you want? (SCHEME-REPORT-ENVIRONMENT 5) is guaranteed to give you all the bindings that are required in the R5RS. 23:11:32 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:11:53 (The EVAL procedure would be unchanged by the addition of further guarantees about the environment specifiers.) 23:12:46 . 23:12:52 . 23:12:58 . 23:13:21 . 23:13:27 :( 23:13:30 why are you doing that 23:13:36 Cheshire loses! 23:13:39 maybe it's just me, but I think it would be useful for eval to take an alist of bindings, for instance 23:13:40 do you know how much it costs to clean those off? 23:13:47 or to be able to construct an environment from such 23:14:00 aspect, now you're talking. 23:14:01 aspect, you can already do that trivially with what you are given. 23:14:15 (eval `((lambda ,names ,body) ,values)) doesn't count 23:14:30 That's right, because it doesn't work. But (apply (eval `(LAMBDA ,(map car bindings) ,expression) ) (map cdr bindings)) does. 23:14:33 why not? 23:15:07 *aspect* waves hands ... aesthetics? non-obviousness? 23:16:38 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 23:17:17 So define a procedure EXTENDED-EVAL that does this, and use that. 23:17:45 synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:18:38 rusybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (eval `(+ ,a 1))) 23:18:53 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (eval `(+ ,a 1))) 23:19:15 rudybot: eval 1 23:19:16 Mr-Cat_: ; Value: 1 23:19:17 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053C8B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:29 rudybot: eval (let ((a 1)) (eval `(+ ,a 1))) 23:19:42 Hm... that works in chicken 23:19:43 is the mutability of environments passed to EVAL specified? I seem to recall a gotcha there too, but perhaps I'm talking out my hat 23:19:48 specbot: r5rs eval 23:19:48 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_578 23:19:50 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4qfyda 23:20:35 The effect of assignments to standard bindings is unspecified. Definitions within the standard environments are not allowed. 23:21:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:21:51 Riastradh: What did you mean 'That's right, because it doesn't work' ? eval on quasiquoted lists works well in chicken and plt. 23:21:59 not that mutation is a preferred technique ... I'll concede: EVAL can be made useful with minimal work 23:22:21 By contrast, LOAD cannot be made useful. 23:22:29 Mr-Cat_: I got my arguments completely bass-ackwards 23:22:33 indeed 23:22:48 LOAD shouldn't exist as specified 23:23:00 it's a waste of a name :( 23:23:02 Mr-Cat_, suppose we want to evaluate the expression X in an `environment' in which the variable named X has as its value the list (+ 1 2). 23:23:22 Mr-Cat_, clearly, the value we ought to obtain is the list (+ 1 2). 23:24:06 A program that does what I describe ought to be equivalent to the program ((LAMBDA (X) X) '(+ 1 2)). 23:24:21 also: the quasiquoted argument list has nothing to do with eval -- it's expanded before the procedure is called 23:25:17 Now, try (define (extended-eval expression bindings environment) (eval `((LAMBDA ,(map car bindings) ,expression) ,@(map cdr bindings)) environment)), and use it with (extended-eval 'X '((X . (+ 1 2))) (scheme-report-environment 5)). 23:25:33 What value does this program yield? 23:25:51 Riastradh 23:25:56 sorry 23:26:52 Riastradh: So, that was not about eval+quasiquotation, but about an approach to definition of 'extended-eval'? 23:27:49 EVAL doesn't care how you built the list. You could just as well write (cons (list 'LAMBDA (map car bindings) expression) (map cdr bindings)). 23:28:53 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:29:17 Writing that rather than the quasiquotation would not affect the value of the use of EXTENDED-EVAL that I suggested above. What value does it yield? 23:29:48 tizoc_ [n=tizoc@unaffiliated/tizoc] has joined #scheme 23:31:52 You mean what value is yielded by (extended-eval 'X '((X . (+ 1 2))) ? 23:32:11 You missed an argument, but yes. 23:33:04 In fact it complains about unbound X 23:33:09 in chicken 23:34:07 Then you didn't type what I wrote. 23:34:28 ...or you are running Chicken in non-standards-compliant mode. 23:34:53 Try `csi -i'. 23:35:11 Anyway, don't run this in a REPL. 23:35:18 Think about what it does. 23:35:34 Ah 23:36:17 Was it about case sensitiveness? 23:36:38 now the result is 3 23:36:45 Why is the result 3? 23:36:53 Earlier I said it ought to have been the list (+ 1 2). 23:37:12 After all, that's what you get if you evaluate ((LAMBDA (X) X) '(+ 1 2)). 23:37:29 Or even ((LAMBDA (X) X) (LIST '+ 1 2)). 23:38:09 Well, '(+ 1 2) seems to have been spliced into a resulting list, so that it became function application 23:38:22 That's right. 23:40:33 We could try to remedy the problem by changing ,@(map cdr bindings) into ',@(map cdr bindings) -- but then if we have a binding whose value is not readably writable, the evaluator might be unhappy. For instance, if EVAL works by compiling the expression to a dynamically loadable object and then loads that from the disk, it might not be happy to find a literally quoted, say, procedure. 23:41:13 Since the values of the bindings could be arbitrary, and since we are not guaranteed that EVAL will accept arbitrary values in the expression, it is better not to put the values of the binding in the expression. 23:42:57 So, you mean, that eval is not quite suitable to accept bindings from the "context"? 23:43:29 What is `the "context"'? 23:45:47 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:15 Well, 'context' - I mean the bindings that are visible in the place where the call to eval occurs. Nethertheless, nm, i haven't digested all the information you provided me with still. 23:46:49 This has nothing to do with the lexical bindings in the program that is calling EVAL. 23:47:05 This has to do with how EVAL is used to create bindings for the expression being evaluated. 23:47:22 More specifically, it has to do with how values are transmitted to the bindings created for the expression being evaluated. 23:48:06 Yes, I think I understand that now 23:48:42 Embedding them in an expression passed to EVAL doesn't work very well; that's why I use APPLY instead. 23:49:46 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:23 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:51:36 Riastradh: Thanks. 'Good practices vs. bad practices' is really what i need now :) 23:52:49 Any last questions before I vanish? 23:53:10 I think, no. 23:53:32 I';; have to vanish too, it's 3:00 already :) 23:53:36 *Riastradh* vanishes. 23:53:52 *j85wilson* waves goodbye to the vanishers. 23:54:18 his smile remained for a while 23:54:58 ooh, Cheshire Riastradh! 23:55:17 sorry I'm going 23:56:12 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:01 zbigniew: I found a post you wrote a while back, while I was googling about... NFS + NIS? 23:57:49 hmm, was it a dumb post? that's usually the case 23:58:09 it was a question. I think it got answered. I don't think the answer answered my question. 23:58:11 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #scheme 23:58:14 j85wilson, how's life as a poor grad student? 23:58:24 I see 23:58:27 not too bad. It got above freezing today! 23:58:38 where are you again? 23:58:41 Ohio 23:58:54 the sidewalks have been like a skating rink for about the last week 23:59:02 i'd probably die 23:59:10 but it should stay above freezing most of this week, so maybe it will all melt. 23:59:17 so I guess you wear gloves and stuff 23:59:18 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:22 usually 23:59:29 and pants 23:59:33 how weird 23:59:36 nothing more, most days. 23:59:41 ;) 23:59:53 ilya [n=ilya@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #scheme 23:59:54 as long as your hands and genitals are warm, that's all you really need