00:00:41 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:49 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:37 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:10:48 aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 00:11:46 mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:14 Deformative [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:20 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.static.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:00 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:29:14 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:33 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@217.205.201.45] has quit [] 00:34:01 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 00:34:08 -!- morphir [n=morphir@217.168.81.9] has quit [] 00:35:10 incubot: "trust but verify," means checking the toilet for black widows even after the termite fumigation 00:35:12 Also, try it out -- I'd like to verify that it works for people other than me. 00:39:53 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:40:43 Has anyone here used PVS? 00:41:12 Expand `PVS', please. 00:42:27 Proof Verification System, I think. 00:42:46 Prototype Verification System, sorry. 00:43:05 Nope. 00:49:36 troter [n=troter@nurikabe.timedia.co.jp] has joined #scheme 00:50:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:38 incubot: we live in a world designed by Mickey Mouse, red in tooth and claw 00:50:40 hm .. maybe my tooth's not sweet enough 00:53:27 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:53:37 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 01:01:33 Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:01:37 bet` [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:02:32 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:03:37 georgiecasey [n=georgiec@frink.nuigalway.ie] has joined #scheme 01:03:59 tizoc` [n=user@r190-135-34-73.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:04:49 -!- georgiecasey [n=georgiec@frink.nuigalway.ie] has left #scheme 01:10:30 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-24-63.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:01 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:11:05 -!- tizoc` is now known as tizoc 01:13:49 exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.12] has joined #scheme 01:15:26 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has quit [] 01:18:24 pjb3 [n=pjb3@38.104.58.202] has joined #scheme 01:19:44 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 01:21:09 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-154.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 01:23:07 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 01:25:19 synthase [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:40 shivindap [n=shivinda@99.186.238.155] has joined #scheme 01:33:18 -!- shivindap [n=shivinda@99.186.238.155] has left #scheme 01:33:34 j85wilson [n=j85wilso@cpe-75-187-46-126.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:34:28 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:34:55 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:36:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-222.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:37:11 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-fb1d20b5c4c88e0a] has joined #scheme 01:42:16 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.234.190.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:54 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:48:29 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:52:55 -!- saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:58:16 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:58:38 saccade [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:03:23 I realized today that spam in large quantities serves a useful purpose. 02:06:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 02:07:01 what purpose? 02:07:40 It provides an immense corpus of sick, twisted, bogus, broken messages that push the limits of any mail software, which is excellent for testing its robustness and performance. 02:08:18 nice, I never thought about that 02:09:30 Rather like QuickCheck in that sense. 02:11:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:12:54 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:57 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #scheme 02:13:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:15:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:45 I really wonder what the purpose of spam is these days. I don't get any that is even slightly legible, or referring to any company or product. 02:16:46 Some of it contains HTML parts that you and I never see. There's also a lot of broken spam software out there. 02:22:04 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:22:29 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:34:17 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:28 Fulax [n=cyprien@85-171-65-14.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #scheme 02:40:49 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:44:39 No I see them, just as the source. 02:48:23 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:49:27 higepon423 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 02:52:29 What looks like incomprehensible tag soup to you may be rendered by Outlook as an aesthetically refined layout of animated penises and viagra pills, complete with invisible malware/adware/spyware and auto-clicked links to half a dozen web sites hosted in Estonia. 02:52:44 -!- benny` [n=benny@87.122.0.255] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:25 At least, so I imagine. I haven't ever actually set eyes on such messages. I once looked out of curiosity at the garbage that Yahoo! Groups! puts! on! every! message! it! delivers!, and that was sickening enough. 02:53:47 (...`set eyes on Outlook's rendering of such messages', I mean.) 03:05:29 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 03:09:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 03:13:24 penis 03:14:55 -!- Gorgoroth is now known as Gaia 03:14:56 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 03:15:35 -!- Gaia is now known as Gorgoroth 03:15:45 -!- Gorgoroth is now known as Gaia 03:21:46 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:25:32 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:27:38 meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-99-165-19-26.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:36:11 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:47:37 -!- pjb3 [n=pjb3@38.104.58.202] has quit [] 03:48:50 -!- higepon423 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:49 Riastradh: Note, BTW, that a dynamic ffi can be trivially used in a way that cooperates with a C compiler. 03:50:13 and can do so in multiple ways. 03:56:57 Axioplase [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #scheme 03:57:18 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:57:22 eli: What are you referencing here? 03:58:26 arcfide: Riastradh saying "You lose." and "Sorry. That's the cost of insisting on a purely dynamic FFI." 04:01:30 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-fb1d20b5c4c88e0a] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:43 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-ef65a0ce8d290389] has joined #scheme 04:02:21 eli: by purely dynamic, you mean one that does not deal with source code or header files, but instead works with something like shared loadable objects of machine code? 04:02:29 eli: I'd be curious to learn if there's a answer to toyvo's question :-| 04:03:22 arcfide: Yes. 04:03:33 offby1: There are several possible answers. 04:03:49 eli: Did this conversation happen today? 04:04:10 arcfide: Yes. 04:04:27 offby1: One is to write C code that can talk to the foreign library, but provides a simple C type interface that you can talk to from Scheme. 04:04:41 hm 04:05:03 so it always gets compiled with the macros properly expanded, as usual; but it provides a stable interface to the FFI 04:05:05 offby1: Another is to take it one step further and write C code that creates the Scheme values. 04:06:06 offby1: And another option is to write code that gathers C information using the C compiler, and embed that in some byte-compiled code (by making it do this gathering in a macro). 04:06:38 I don't know what you mean by "it always gets compiled with the macros properly expanded"... 04:09:03 I don't see why it is not possible to have the dynamic FFI that can use a separate interface for generating that dynamic stuff statically at compile time, in which case it can take advantage of the header files and the like. 04:10:13 arcfide: Yes, that's the third option I listed above. 04:10:29 And it's the one we're using for our opengl bindings. 04:10:51 Well, anyways, I'm off to bed. 04:10:56 -!- Gaia is now known as Gorgoroth 04:12:17 eli: I would probably have had it as a macro that expands to the right FFI code which then gets compiled. 04:13:15 eli: Oh, just that when you're dealing with the output from the compiler, rather than input to it, you don't have to worry about those macros that toyvo mentioned 04:14:40 arcfide: Yes, we need to make that into a macro but didn't get to, yet. 04:15:31 offby1: That's the idea. You basically compile a small C file that outputs sizes of some types, then you get to embed these types in the Scheme code since the whole thing is a macro. 04:15:58 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:19:16 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-69.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 04:20:23 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:20:40 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:28:46 Riastradh: ping 04:31:01 Callahad [n=callahad@c-66-41-127-3.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:33:27 jcowan: icmp type 5 code 3, 109.97.105.108 04:35:20 higepon63 [n=taro@218-223-22-146.bitcat.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:15 *jcowan* chuckles 04:36:16 Hi, I'm looking to work through SICP, and was wondering if any particular implementations were more suited to this task? (e.g. a repl with readline support) 04:36:40 I wondered if we could discuss that superclass ordering issue I brought up with you a while back. 04:37:51 -!- meanburrito920_ [n=John@adsl-99-165-19-26.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["has been attacked by a grue"] 04:38:04 Callahad: of course mit scheme is the official one 04:39:04 Riastradh: I was going to impose the rule that all superclass lists are consistent with a single global ordering of classes, 04:39:26 but it was pointed out to me that if A and B are truly independent, it's pointless to have to fix a single mutual order. 04:39:26 wastrel: That's... quite reasonable. Thanks! :) 04:39:44 The question is, how to determine "true independence". 04:44:34 Compute the transitive closure, check for cycles, and worry about the conflicts rather than the independent cases while you topologically sort? 04:45:58 ...or...just topologically sort, rather, and complain if you encounter a cycle. 04:50:19 It's not about sorting classes, it's about methods. 04:50:31 Anyway, I'm about to go to bed, so if you could decode my ICMP packet and carry out its instruction with a detailed explanation of the issue and why true independence is important, I can have a closer look at it when I find time (of which I have little at the moment). 04:51:41 (These brief IRC interludes aren't quite enough for me to store in memory what the issues involved are.) 04:51:46 Sam 'an wata'atan, effendi 04:53:18 -!- mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:54:03 mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:55:50 *jcowan* decodes the message 04:58:59 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:10:11 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176221117.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:11:59 -!- Callahad [n=callahad@c-66-41-127-3.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["sleep."] 05:13:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 05:18:07 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 05:18:48 *zbigniew* has a brief interlude 05:21:49 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:22:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 05:27:09 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176202200.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:15 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 05:47:59 *Daemmerung* briefly wonders what Barry White was doing on this channel 05:48:48 -!- Gorgoroth is now known as Troll 05:58:25 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 06:05:55 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 06:09:06 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:10:48 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-45-71.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:30 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:22:58 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit ["leaving"] 06:23:14 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:34 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 06:24:04 *foof* is about ready to give up and rewrite his program in C 06:32:14 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:36:27 yeah! 06:38:24 trouble with a FFI, even one that uses a C interface to access the constants, is the limitations of C. It's impossible to write a C program that says "for every constant in this module send its name and value" or even "its value" alone. 06:39:21 You just have to make exhaustive copypasta macros defining the constants as themselves, may as well write a scheme module that lists them all. 06:40:22 even enums in C it's impossible to get which symbols map to a given enumerated type, aside from just manually eyeballing the header file. 06:42:32 No, I'm not talking about an FFI, I mean write the whole thing in C. 06:43:16 The only thing that doesn't need to be fast is tokenizing a tab-separated-value file. It would be far more work to write that in Scheme and access everything else via FFI than to just write the trivial tokenizer in C. 06:43:57 I hate the whole "write the fast parts in C and use an FFI" philosophy. It's always so much harder than people think. 06:44:50 And sometimes even if there's a clear separation, the data marshalling problem kills any performance benefits C would give. 06:48:12 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:51:11 peter_12_ [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:51:29 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:51:37 peter_12_ [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:55:53 foof [n=user@clair16.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:05:56 a-s`` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #scheme 07:08:51 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:11:21 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:14:03 -!- a-s` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:16:06 -!- dlurf 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incubot: say A. 18:27:31 minion: kick incubot. 18:27:33 why do i have to do your dirty work? kick incubot yourself. 18:27:59 *sladegen* kicks minion. 18:29:01 -!- tr3 [n=tr3@host28-43-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:34:33 arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-204-55.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 18:35:07 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:36:03 Hello everyone. 18:36:26 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 18:37:01 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 18:38:38 jonrafkind [n=jon@204.99.164.174] has joined #scheme 18:40:56 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:34 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:17 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 18:46:19 jah [n=jah@89.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:36 -!- pchrist_ 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incubot: "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" is an argument against the inherent intuitiveness of infix notation 21:55:19 Intuitiveness is a linked to comfort -- and comfort is linked to familiarity. 21:55:33 Yes, incubot. 21:59:26 -!- forcer- [n=forcer@e177138184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:40 -!- jah [n=jah@86.76.56.89] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:05:21 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 22:05:54 dan__ [n=dan@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has joined #scheme 22:07:25 -!- dan__ [n=dan@ip-66-9-231-226.autorev.intellispace.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:11 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:09:28 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 22:09:29 -!- Def [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 22:14:32 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 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