00:01:25 only in america: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/20/1517212 00:02:24 -!- cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:32 iCantSleep 00:04:35 :( 00:04:40 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-59-241-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:04:59 speaking of iPods, there's not a Scheme yet on the iPod/iPhone, is there? 00:05:22 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:05:49 not that it would be terribly enjoyable to use, but still 00:05:49 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-59-241-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:06:01 bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-59-241-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:28 bweaver_ [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:04 jonrafkind [n=jon@12.50.149.2] has joined #scheme 00:07:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #scheme 00:07:23 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:35 incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:12:57 incubot: just wanted to be sure that my wife restarted you, even though she's unix-illiterate 00:13:01 the one time I felt really old was after I'd gone up and down a fairly long, steep hill with my wife (who is infuriatingly in shape); it was three hours up and five down, and at the end I truly felt like I knew how a 90-year old would feel. 00:14:51 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:18:01 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:16 ozy: no, you'd have to remove eval inorder to work with the developer licensee 00:20:39 I figure it'd be easy to port a scheme that compiler through C though, such as Chicken 00:21:41 Arelius: oh crap.... forgot they still had that in there 00:22:21 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw560169.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:44 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 00:22:47 So perhaps you could do it with a jailbroken phone but seemingly never on the app store 00:23:15 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 00:27:51 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@c-68-59-241-190.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:17 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:05 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:36:26 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 00:36:29 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 00:37:00 geckosenator [n=sean@adsl-68-23-87-156.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #scheme 00:38:19 -!- Gorgoroth [i=Gorgorot@195-132-141-240.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 00:41:16 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 00:41:35 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@88.235.24.191] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:54 -!- mpeter [n=u5h@unaffiliated/mpeter] has left #scheme 00:52:11 shaunxcode_ [n=chatzill@65.181.49.171] has joined #scheme 00:53:34 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:53:45 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFEC21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 00:57:31 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:59:28 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:00:44 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-81.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:14 -!- shaunxcode_ [n=chatzill@65.181.49.171] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 01:08:30 Um, foof, you wrote match.scm on synthcode, right? 01:10:55 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:11:54 Arelius: yeah I was mainly interested in writing and running code on an iPod 01:12:02 maybe using a webserver? hmmmm 01:12:36 I agree that it'd be awesome 01:15:41 annodomini [n=lambda@129.170.131.214] has joined #scheme 01:22:23 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:24 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:36:04 incubot: the "irony mark" is sometimes called the snark or zing 01:36:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_mark 01:36:07 like the Snark, is ages ahead of the fashion. 01:36:19 too true 01:41:30 -!- timezra [n=timezra@outbound.solutionsiq.com] has left #scheme 01:41:35 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:07 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #scheme 01:48:11 spooneybarger_ [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:49:23 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [] 01:52:09 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:54:17 klutometis: just curious, what does it do to speak to incubot as such? 01:56:34 Arelius: what does "it" "do"? whatever words do, i suppose ;) 01:57:07 does he absorb said information? 01:57:22 can I now ask him about the irony mark? 01:57:35 incubot: what can you tell me about the "irony mark" 01:57:38 damnit; my irony-dar is really off today 01:57:47 -!- spooneybarger_ [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:57:56 originally it was immediate; but due to the limitations of the chroot, i had to resort to a daily cron job to catch up on discourse 01:58:21 i really should just populate the damn chroot with sqlite3 libs, though 01:58:33 0.o 01:59:20 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:02:13 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:02:40 arcfide, yes, foof wrote . 02:06:48 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 02:16:39 -!- incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:55 -!- bweaver_ [n=bweaver@c-67-161-236-94.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:18:32 incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:19:49 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 02:23:10 incubot: i had no idea alan cox was so hairy 02:23:12 looking at the lalr sources it's a bit hairy (hence asking if anyone has experience here) 02:23:17 Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:25:06 -!- Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:27:47 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:41:11 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:42:25 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:44:43 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:35 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:45:46 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 02:52:51 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:35 Kusanagi [n=Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 03:02:50 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:55 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:03:00 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:05 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:16:56 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:22 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:25:03 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:25:47 troter [n=troter@EM114-48-164-66.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:25:52 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:39:01 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit ["leaving"] 03:39:50 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:43:18 arcfide: I wrote everything on synthcode ;) 03:43:30 (even the crap) 03:43:51 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:43:54 -!- luz [n=davids@201.29.189.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:44:34 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:48:11 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:00:47 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:18 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:47 if you were to write a statically typed scheme, how would you do type annotations, syntax wise? 04:06:30 Arelius: have you looked at typed scheme? :P 04:06:32 look at Qi or Pre-Scheme 04:06:48 typed scheme would be better 04:08:41 elly: No, I've seen pre-scheme though 04:08:58 plt typed-scheme? 04:08:58 if I recall correctly, typed scheme is _really_ simple 04:09:00 yeah 04:09:09 "simple" in a good way. 04:15:49 (: fun (number -> number)) 04:15:56 (define (fun x) ...) 04:16:02 seems to be typed-scheme 04:17:00 yep, that seems familiar 04:18:06 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw560169.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:18:24 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 04:21:33 i find typed scheme's approach very workable 04:26:11 it's difficult if you ever need to do type annotations any where else though 04:26:56 -!- bsmntbombdood is now known as bsmntbombgirl 04:27:04 Arelius: how so? 04:27:29 well not sure how you would do it 04:27:34 say for instance on a lambda 04:27:42 but that likely cause I haven't read enough of it 04:27:43 look at typed scheme.. 04:29:48 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:30:02 -!- dudrenov [n=user@c-69-181-124-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:30:20 langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 04:31:01 they seem to use a special "lambda:" form which is inconsistent with the type annotation ":" form 04:31:44 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 04:31:53 the (: ...) form is only for top level definitions 04:34:31 indeed 04:34:37 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #scheme 04:34:41 it seems a bit weird to require both 04:34:55 and it'd be nice to not require an all or nothing annotations 04:35:11 typed scheme does do some local inference 04:35:18 for instance, it'd be nice in a function that took 3 args, to be able to annotate one and let the others get inferred 04:35:39 that's not a syntactic limitation, that's a limitation of the type system 04:35:45 sure, but I gather that the define: and lambda: forms require all of the parms to be annotated 04:36:00 correct, although you can get away with a normal lambda and no annotations in some cases 04:36:41 define: requires that they all be annotated because the type system depends on that knowledge 04:37:28 which is why I think that system might not be ideal for a well inferred type-system 04:38:42 you can't do inference for the sort of things typed scheme will let you do 04:40:28 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:41:10 hrm, what sort of things is that? 04:41:17 luz [n=davids@201.29.226.47] has joined #scheme 04:41:29 concerning HTML generation... 04:41:47 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:52 Often I want to take an existing XML or HTML document and just add relevant parts to it, template style. 04:42:32 Often I feel the urge to steer into oncoming traffic ... 04:42:50 At the same time it's a royal pain maintaining dual-language standards compliant XHTML input templates. 04:42:52 Arelius: plt scheme has union types. a function can take some 'x' which can be either, say, a string or an integer. in a language like ML, you'd need to declare a new data type and project into it using the appropriate constructor. i believe some of the type constraining that plt does with predicates may be tough to infer as well. 04:42:55 So I usually try to start from something like an s-expr and generate the document without any valid XML as a source. 04:43:38 Arelius: the idea behind typed scheme is to let you use an idiomatic scheme programming style while adding types. if you want full inference, you can't write scheme like you usually would 04:43:56 But modifying those is difficult... is there a way to make a "template", and then add the parts in later that'll produce a standards compliant document? 04:44:03 johnnowak: Yeah, I don't actually plan on writting scheme like normal. 04:44:04 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:44:19 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:44:23 I think a good goal though for typed-scheme though 04:44:39 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.dialup.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 04:44:47 Arelius: it's easy enough to put an sexpr syntax over ML. it'll just be ML with a more verbose syntax though. 04:45:34 I guess the best strategy would be to have a lambda that used (make-html) and (make-a) and (make-hr) and stuff, that took the missing pieces as parameters. 04:45:59 Yeah, the problem is that ML doesn't work for this particular sort of application either. 04:46:29 what application is that? 04:46:57 soft real-time graphical apps is the sort. 04:47:45 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:58 I'd prefer to lean towards scheme style, but I understand there are sacrifices to be made to get what I want. 04:48:04 synx: the way genshi does XML transformers might have some ideas for you .. I don't know it very well but some python people seem to like it 04:48:56 Also, I believe that ML would be a lot nicer with sexpr syntax and scheme style macros. 04:49:23 Oh I made my own HTML generating library in python already. Just curious what would be best practices in doing so. 04:49:29 Arelius: types do complicate macros 04:50:37 Sre 04:50:37 I hate having to start out with a HTML template. I can't pin down the meaning of that precisely, the way I can a lambda. HTML is an output and presentation format IMO, at best... 04:50:39 Sure 04:51:24 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:51:44 The site designer should never have to type xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" 'cause that hasn't changed in what, 10 years now? It's just a bunch of niggling details ripe for human error. 04:52:41 At least if you write a lambda it can error out before the document is produced and displayed. 04:54:17 -!- kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:56:51 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:59:09 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-133-135-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 05:03:47 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 05:04:59 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #scheme 05:05:19 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:06:30 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-166-177.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:06:51 ML and HTML in the same discussion... Hm.. It would be nice to have typed html with inference 05:07:26 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-133-143-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:47 concatenative HTML... 05:08:31 Good grief, making a prolog is freaking impossible... 05:09:48 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 05:10:08 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.dialup.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:29 (make-prolog (list (make-pcdata something) (make-pcdata something)) (make-document-type something (make-external-dtd something) something something) (list (make-comment "this sucks) (make-pcdata something))) <-- I think that's about as simple as it gets 05:11:36 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:12:42 -!- Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:14:24 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-166-177.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:37 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-166-177.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:15:34 wait why does make-pcdata expect 3 arguments. It only has 1 member of the struct pcdata! 05:18:56 Oh it's got a parent struct, my bad... 05:22:31 -!- incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:32 incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:27:38 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176222201.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:47 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176212204.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:30:49 benny [n=benny@i577A0E17.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 05:31:17 I can't believe you can't write an XML literal, parse that, and insert the parsed thing into your sexp 05:37:40 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 05:44:47 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:45:05 holigen [n=holigen@Manzanita-40-120.resnet.ucsb.edu] has joined #scheme 05:46:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-75.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 05:50:18 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-144-108.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 06:05:42 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 06:06:39 Could do that offby1, but I couldn't insert content into it, not without unparsing the sexp it generates. 06:08:07 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 06:13:05 jsj0nes [n=jsjones@pool-71-102-138-175.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:18:30 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-155.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:31:26 underspecified_ [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:34:01 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-155.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:53 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:36:15 foof` [n=user@clair17.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:36:59 -!- jsj0nes [n=jsjones@pool-71-102-138-175.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #scheme 06:42:41 -!- reprore 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[n=sean@adsl-68-23-87-156.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:34 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 13:02:08 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:04:15 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@12.50.149.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:05:40 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:05:46 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:06:11 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052007.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 13:11:46 will mzscheme support the SRFI-97 naming convention at some point? 13:15:51 Let's just stop to take a moment to praise Jebus and thank him for compelling the Scheme community to come up with some human-friendly names for all of the SRFI libraries. 13:16:48 When I look at the list, I see some of them and say, "Hey, someone wrote that already?! Awesome!" 13:17:21 I love the SRFIs. R5RS is a fairly minimal language core, brimming with potential. SRFIs are people using that potential in ways us mere humans might not have even imagined. 13:17:37 Indentation-sensitive syntax! Who'd have thought! 13:17:54 What's 7^2? 13:18:06 Not a symbol... 13:18:52 alaricsp, I just wish R5RS specified a way to declare which SRFIs a file is using 13:19:23 Well, R5RS doesn't recognise the SRFIs, they lay on top. SRFI-0 is as good as it gets... 13:20:11 the various implementors could decide on a way... 13:20:13 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:21:14 Chicken has (use srfi-*), but some SRFIs are just there for you by default and don't need declaring, so it's not complete 13:21:28 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-133-138-157.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 13:21:33 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-133-146-131.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:50 Or the value of the expression, interpreted as a SRFI number? We'll forget that that ever happened. Alternatively, hang it on the wall of every classroom as a warning to those who become enamoured with the idiosyncratic properties of fashionable languages. 13:21:59 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 13:23:23 Magic 3 is a single 1,500 line source file, and I don't break it up because teasing out the individual library dependences would be a big pain in the buttocks. And Scheme48 has a pretty nice way of expressing dependencies. 13:23:46 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:24:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:31 Lots of generally handy code in there, which I'll library-ize Someday. 13:26:02 alaricsp, my point is that like, .. in every different implementation you use a different incantation to load a SRFI 13:26:14 Yeah, I know 13:26:23 I thought there was an SRFI that did something about that 13:26:26 other than that.. I think it's near perfect 13:26:31 srfi-0 should have defined a way of declaring requirement as well as cond-expand, I think! 13:26:31 (require-extension (srfi 1)) or sth 13:26:34 sjamaan, ha ha ... :p 13:26:44 vixey: I'm serious 13:26:53 Of course, you don't load _that_ srfi 13:26:53 how can the problem be fixed /by/ a srfi 13:27:01 hmf 13:27:07 That has to be part of the core Scheme 13:28:23 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:35 edw: How is Magic coming along? 13:28:44 SRFI-7? 13:28:57 That has a (requires ...) 13:29:16 But it's all funny and I've never ever seen a program using it. Looks a bit heavyweight. 13:30:11 No, a later one I think 13:30:15 One by Felix 13:30:32 srfi-55 13:30:40 -!- jah [n=jah@212.160.66-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:30:50 Ah yes 13:31:10 I think I'm ready to write something about it, arcfide. ;) Magic 3 was conceived as a poke in the eye for Paul Graham, and his ridiculous assertions regarding Arc. As I wrote it and wrote real-ish code atop it, I came to a conclusion... 13:31:51 That continuation-based web application frameworks suck. The funny thing is, this was my original position, but I was somehow seduced by the their promise. 13:32:13 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:32:36 edw: what's the main reason of suckage? 13:34:14 higepon343 [n=taro@FLH1Aig081.tky.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 13:34:35 It's very easy to do a continuation-y call, but you worry so much about keeping stale state around that you make web app authors think very carefully about whether they want a state-preserving link/form/whatever. You think about GC far more often than you do than you would if you were doing typical session management. 13:34:40 edw: Curious thing, that. I would be interested to see a nice write-up about your experiences and how you came to this conclusion, since a lot of people seem to think that Continuations are a great solution for the Web. 13:35:57 And you can get the same benefits by using lexical scoping to store a piece of state that captures the current environment and stores it in a session variable for later use. 13:37:36 E.g. (set-session-state! 'hello-proc (lambda () (xml "Hello" `((a href "/account") ,(form-ref 'nickname))))). 13:37:50 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:54 (A very lame example...) 13:37:55 I think continuations are good for a few things - things that are like wizards, with a sequence - those are a pain to do by hand. But for normal meandering web site structures, they're not a good fit 13:38:02 So you need a way to use them for PARTS of the site only 13:38:37 *sjamaan* agrees with alaricsp 13:38:58 While editing the form, stay within continuation usage 13:38:59 alaricsp: Right, that's exactly where I am. And if it's possible to whip out continuations in those unusual cases, there's no need to make that the 90% solution. 13:39:09 When the form is submitted, kill all these continuations 13:39:20 (as you know the form can't be submitted twice anyway) 13:39:27 ejs1 [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #scheme 13:40:01 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:12 (Magic 3 doesn't even use explicit continuations, just macros and lexical scoping, which solves all sorts of problems.) 13:42:19 Back in the early days, my original plan was a web app framework in C that had a send_page function that would send a page with an embedded pid, block the process, and wait for the web server to get a response with the pid in and re-awaken the blocked process and send it the response 13:42:24 As C isn't known for its continuation support 13:42:35 Ah, callow youth I was 13:42:41 sjamaan: That's a good idea: name a wizard so when you commit it, it blows away all of the state associated with that wizard (for a given user). 13:43:01 jonrafkind [n=jon@64.213.79.190] has joined #scheme 13:43:04 *sjamaan* nods 13:43:21 You'd still need to do GC for wizards that were never finished 13:43:38 But you end up with much less garbage, hopefully 13:44:03 Yes. 13:44:32 In an ideal world, we'd have lightweight limited continuations we could just EMBED IN A HIDDEN FORM FIELD. 13:44:44 After all, that's what the programmer has to do by hand when doing normal form-based flow control 13:44:54 And by making it the exception and not the rule, you encourage developers to make RESTy web sites, not Seaside-esque odes to state. 13:44:55 What we really want is to have that automated 13:45:04 edw: Hear hear 13:45:27 alaricsp: What we really want is to get rid of the annoying statelessness of HTTP :) 13:45:42 That too ;-) 13:46:12 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:46:26 It's nasty to make things stateful when they needn't be, but some things just are stateful, and pretending they're not means handling all that state by hand. 13:46:42 But, we won't change all deployed browsers overnight... 13:46:43 I was talking to a guy who was giving a presentation here in Philly on Symfony (strted as a Rails for PHP) and he said it had a nice way to handle forms, and I asked him what it was, because we've been building web apps for almost fifteen years and handling the multi-page form with validation is still a PITA. 13:47:08 Synfony. Or was it Symfonie? Whatever. 13:47:10 edw: What was his secret? 13:47:15 TELL ME NOW!!!111!1!1eleven 13:47:41 heh 13:48:05 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:48:19 There was nothing behind the curtain. I would have been dispirited had their not been some pretty good apple cider in my hand. 13:48:28 Poor edw 13:48:31 s/their/there/ 13:48:32 huh? 13:48:38 We all lose. 13:48:45 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:46 I have some ideas on how to handle it, but I've not had the time to work more on them yet 13:48:49 Why did he think he had a good solution? 13:48:57 Because he was naive and stupid? 13:49:05 Oh, right 13:49:08 PHP programmer 13:49:22 Yeah 13:49:49 My thoughts are that the way forms are done in GUIs is pleasant for the programmer. 13:49:55 So how can we implement that on top of HTML and HTTP? 13:50:00 I did some experiments many years ago 13:50:03 http://clients.snell-systems.co.uk/war-rocket-ajax/ 13:50:14 See http://clients.snell-systems.co.uk/war-rocket-ajax/test.php and http://clients.snell-systems.co.uk/war-rocket-ajax/test.phps and friends 13:50:17 It's a limited prototype 13:50:19 The guy's actually quite smart. He wrote `gd' and a bunch of other stuff, but I think our definitions of "better" were a lot different. 13:50:59 But the idea needs exploring 13:51:21 Thankfully, I'm not having to do any web programming at the moment, so have not had resources available for experimenting any further lately! 13:51:50 But the talk was weird. Very little showing of what it actually was. No source. I think because it wasn't a technical audience; he didn't want to freak them out. But it was a talk about a application framework. Show me some source code, some side-by-side Rails v Symfony v Magic. 13:51:53 ;) 13:52:18 Yeah, you would have thought the source is what matters! 13:53:43 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:01 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:55:21 http://www.snell-pym.org.uk/archives/2007/06/17/another-thing-i-hate-about-web-application-frameworks/ is a relevant rant of mine on the topic 13:55:22 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-236-161.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:55:22 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/8wk94f 13:55:25 *alaricsp* likes to rant 13:56:15 ranting is fun :) 13:56:21 Espcially about broken software 14:03:31 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:05:27 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:05:43 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:55 The whole field of web app development is in flux. We need to take in everything that's changed in the last few years and figure out some Standard Model for web app development. It seems realistic to keep state on the browser these days, thanks to robust Javascript implementations and XHR. 14:07:15 Exclusively on the browser. 14:07:22 Yes and no... I worry about that approach 14:07:26 It makes it hard to write browsers, TBH 14:07:30 Makes the system as a whole more complex 14:07:45 I'm not sure who well it fits with screen readers, either! 14:07:58 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 14:08:05 *sjamaan* likes his links 14:08:30 or lynx 14:08:34 Yeah 14:09:41 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:10:28 alaricsp: You can still spit out nice looking, semantic HTML for the static content. And adorn it with state-manipulating Javascript. 14:12:22 Anyone know how to trim the top off an ERC buffer so it doesn't cause my computer to start swapping? 14:12:36 Find as long as it's OPTIONAL javascript and the site works just fine with it missing! 14:12:40 s/Fine/Fine/ 14:13:10 One of the things in my War Rocket experimental thing was that it supports seamless failover if JS isn't available 14:13:24 For what definition of "works just fine"? I should be able to read a newspaper without Javascript. I think we can agree there. 14:13:33 Things are only done via buttons, and the whole page is a form; if the JS handler on a button doesn't happen, then the form submits, and the server sends back a new form with the same HTML changes applied as the JS would apply to the DOM 14:13:40 *sjamaan* wonders how that can replace server-side state if it's optional 14:13:43 ;-) 14:13:57 However, this involves duplication of code 14:14:03 edw, what is XHR? 14:14:17 It shouldn't have to 14:14:19 XmlHttpRequest, the thing that maks Ajax go. 14:14:30 Ah, I'm familiar with the longer name. 14:14:48 One should either write the server-side code to run the same JS on a simulated DOM, or have something like a scheme->js compiler to make your server-side code be sendable off to the client for browser-based execution where possible 14:15:15 But to add something to your wishlist or whatever, is it reasonable to ask someone to turn the Javascript crank? 14:15:16 you can just writ back HTML fragments 14:15:32 The fragments would be generated the same way when generating an entire page 14:15:54 alaricsp: Yes, I was thinking about that: I want to write my app in Scheme, and then have runtime determination of where the code should execute. 14:16:29 edw: A most attractive path to take, I agree! 14:16:31 Browser v. server. Compile versions for different latency and bandwith profiles. 14:16:34 incubot [n=incubot@66-215-93-47.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 14:17:02 I did all the AJAXy stuff via AHAH: the server-side handlers just return new HTML, and so can be directly called on the server to make a new page, as sjamaan suggests 14:17:59 But regarding Javascript, in general, my attitude is "You need Javascript: Deal with it." 14:18:02 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 14:18:25 I want to not need Javascript, though 14:18:38 Same here 14:18:42 But there are issues: you can't trust data from the other side of the wire, so you need to validate it. 14:18:48 Also, in some places sysadmins disable it for security reasons 14:18:51 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:57 (also, there's the noscript plugin and similar stuff) 14:19:02 alaricsp and sjamaan: I am am sorry to inform you that you are screwed. 14:19:11 In general, there is no reason to expect people to use JavaScript. 14:19:28 Put it this way, there's few things that CAN'T be done without JS 14:19:29 Who is the "people" in that sentence? 14:19:40 Cropping bits out of pictures is the only case I've seen that really needs it 14:19:51 JS is mainly used to make life easier for the web dev, or for snazzy effects 14:19:58 Neither of which count for much for the end user ;-) 14:20:01 yeah 14:20:09 Demanding JS is rude 14:20:16 And few things that can't be done in machine language... There are a lot of cool things you can do with an iPhone because it has a decent web browser. 14:20:20 edw: Unless I want to design some sophisticated web application that just cannot be done any other way, why should an user have to have Javascript enabled to read or obtain information from my web site. I can understand why it is needed in the development of web applications, but that's a different story. 14:20:42 Even picture cropping can be done with client-side image maps and a rapid turnaround from the server (the trick is to perform the cropping via HTML rather than re-rendering an image on every reload). 14:21:01 However, I argue against the use of web apps in general anyways, so what do I know? 14:21:11 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.121.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:11 arcfide: Who - but nerds and paranoid cranks - spends a lot of time toggling the state of their Enable Javascript checkbox? 14:21:12 arcfide: and even then there's a difference between the backend and the frontend 14:21:34 edw: I don't like your attitude 14:21:47 arcfide, I've got nothing (well, little) against web apps, as long as they are actually *web apps* and not, say, Java applets, or JS applications. 14:22:10 edw, NoScript is a popular extension, and I perform well over half my browsing in elinks. 14:22:15 edw: Actually, quite a bit more than that, I have found, but, but I consider that beside the point. 14:22:31 gnomon: edw would probably say you're a nerd so you don't count 14:22:33 s/but, but/but 14:22:55 Even if that weren't the case, can you point to a single example of a JS-y web app which doesn't shut out, say, blind users? 14:22:58 edw: I can understand why it is useful, I am just against its gratuitous use without providing users a choice. 14:23:07 sjamaan: I'm not saying you're wrong. I sympathize. But the technical merits cease to relevant beyond a certain point. 14:23:45 Agreed. 14:23:58 However, I think there are good reasons for it. 14:24:08 Especially when we speak of making the interface accessible. 14:24:13 edw: Approaching framework development with that attitude will yield a framework that will make developing an app that doesn't need JS without JS very hard 14:24:41 sjamaan, that was a rather tortured sentence! Your point stands, though. 14:24:59 gnomon: Sorry about that 14:25:19 I saw it only after I pressed 'enter' :) 14:25:21 Are we talking about principle or engineering and product design reality? 14:25:41 edw: both 14:26:22 *In principle* I agree with you completely. 14:26:32 edw: I've seen regular websits that wre built with some framework (ASP?) that had links that only workd with JS enabled 14:27:02 There was no reason that needed JS except that the framework made it that way 14:27:13 (sorry, my 'e' key is a bit b0rken) 14:27:23 Can you conceive of a JS-savvy framework that doesn't do the dumbest possible thing in every possible case? 14:27:32 yes 14:28:10 I know it is tempting to say "Ah, feckit, almost everyone can run JS, and it makes everything easy since you have a single flow of control" 14:28:15 But with the attitude that people should just enable JS, choices will be made that lean towards JS more than with an attitude that JS is to be avoided unless absolutely necessary 14:28:18 Good. Because I really don't feel like having to defend the strawman that you're beating the crap out of. 14:28:39 But it means you can't bookmark pages, have trouble with back buttons, have trouble with being usable to the blind, etc 14:29:02 edw: It's not a strawman. It was precisely that attitude that lead to a framework that did such stupid things! 14:29:20 You can do a lot of good stuff with JS 14:29:22 STRAWMAN! SLIPPERY SLOPE! 14:29:51 If it's... what's that word... opposite of graceful degradation. Things that just appear better if JS is available, because there's a single