00:01:40 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:45 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 00:04:43 Leonidas: If to return to r6rs syntax - you may try to process the r6rs tex source 00:05:39 I've looked through if briefly - the form 'names' seem to be written inside {\cf ...} 00:07:57 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:08:43 -!- Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.dialup.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:23 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 00:17:22 -!- alaricsp [n=alaricsp@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [] 00:19:30 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 00:20:47 Yep. But the problem is that I won't know what is a macro and what is a procedure (I think I can safely put special forms into macros and don't need to distinct between these. 00:24:17 ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has joined #scheme 00:29:55 mreh [n=mrehayde@host86-156-67-242.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 00:32:57 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:34:06 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 00:35:09 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:42:17 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE241.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 00:43:25 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:04 I've been reading "The Nature of Lisp" on defmacro.org 00:44:27 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:44:39 and I have a few questions: For example, is he saying that Ant is infact it's own language in its own right? 00:45:30 mreh: yeah, Ant is some kind of DSL. 00:45:37 mreh: it's a domain specific language for building software 00:46:16 but it doesn't have the capacity to define it's own contructs 00:47:21 mreh: you mean add new constructs? 00:47:36 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.236.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:45 yeah 00:48:03 you cant extend Ant in Ant, but you can extend Scheme in Scheme 00:49:23 anyway, that's besides the point 00:49:55 is what he is trying to say that ant doesn't have a fixed abstract syntax tree, which is why it is similar to scheme 00:50:31 mreh: no, it's about the syntax tree being visible right in your code 00:52:01 i'm going back to thinking about this some more 00:55:23 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 00:57:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-10.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:12:20 i want to know when the conversation about whether or not Make is a language is going to take place 01:13:06 glogic: do you want to buy a ticket? 01:13:25 damn right i do 01:13:45 buy the ticket, take the ride 01:15:08 if Make were a language, what would it be? 01:16:25 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:17:01 glogic: can I see that ticket now then? ;P 01:17:02 mreh: it is a language 01:17:10 hkBst: right 01:17:33 mreh: (a language that sucky quite a bit but nonetheless it is a DSL for building stuff) 01:17:55 Leonidas: too many "external DSL's" floating about 01:18:16 die DSL die 01:18:49 i blame martin fowler 01:19:46 glogic: I'm not sure. I wouldn't want to create build recipes in C. 01:19:59 i guess if ant and make are languages than the UNIX tool paradigm gets to be a language too 01:20:10 OTOH, Python uses an inner DSL for building stuff. 01:20:30 Leonidas: don't laugh i've done that 01:20:34 glogic: shell script is a language too, you can buy books about it 01:20:45 Leonidas: and there was a reason but i can't remember it atm 01:20:58 Leonidas: yeah i was aiming for more general than that 01:21:06 glogic: I guess sometimes it is useful when the build tools aren't flexible enough 01:21:17 Leonidas: tools being collections of primitives embodying semantics 01:22:19 of course i guess they're not terribly useful without some kind of piping or redirection 01:22:33 er well at leat not together 01:23:42 -!- mreh [n=mrehayde@host86-156-67-242.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 01:23:46 damn you 01:23:47 haha 01:29:37 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:30:30 hmm, is there some way to find out the type of a form? I am trying to distinguish between procedures and macros. 01:33:44 And I had the idea that instead of reading the spec, I could scrape the spec and feed the commands into an interpreter and see what it says about the command. 01:41:03 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:54:59 krat3r_ [n=krat@bl4-205-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 01:56:56 -!- krat3r [n=krat@bl4-204-37.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:51 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 02:05:24 -!- krat3r_ [n=krat@bl4-205-13.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:06:35 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:32 hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:34 -!- G-Brain [n=G-Brain@ip4da02711.direct-adsl.nl] has left #scheme 02:15:53 wartalker [n=WarTalke@210.51.173.167] has joined #scheme 02:16:15 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:17:40 jinho [n=jinho@user-387gl9p.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 02:17:50 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 02:20:53 do we count "cond" as a procedure? and if so, does that mean that all the predicates are evaluated before a judgment is made as to which consequent expression will be returned? 02:21:30 (I'm reading SICP, and I'm trying to wrap my brain around Exercise 1.6) 02:21:46 rudybot: eval (procedure? cond) 02:21:46 Leonidas: error: eval:1:12: cond: bad syntax in: cond 02:22:06 So it is not a procedure, I guess. 02:23:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:23:46 hmm 02:24:17 *Leonidas* looks at exercise 1.6 02:24:34 COND must be syntax, as (cond ((foo? bar) baz)) wouldn't make much sense if evaluation rules for a procedure were applied 02:25:01 ok I think I see where my misunderstanding is coming from 02:25:26 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@pool-70-111-163-83.nwrk.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:25:43 in exercise 1.6, they replace "if" with "new-if", which is a procedure that tries to do the same thing as "if" except it uses "cond" internally 02:25:54 it can be expanded into IF, which is probably a simpler case to think about 02:26:01 so rather than (if (= 2 0) 0 2), they'd use 02:26:12 (new-if (= 2 0) 0 2) 02:26:27 which breaks when a recursive function is called 02:26:40 jinho: the problem lies somewhere else 02:27:14 jinho: it does not matter to this problem whether cond does or does not evaluate its predicates? 02:27:39 because if you're feeding a recursive function to "new-if", you'll end in an infinite loop since the recursive function is being evaluated 02:27:44 (forget the question mark, it should be a colon) 02:27:47 before the values fed to it can be updated 02:28:35 is it the fact that we went from a special form (if) to a procedure? 02:28:43 (new-if) 02:29:00 jinho: yes. 02:29:16 jinho: new-if evaluates all arguments, whether they are true or false. 02:29:19 and this is due to applicative-order evaluation 02:29:59 one could write a macro new-if that would work. But for no reason, really :) 02:30:28 right- that just seems like a waste of time 02:30:37 thanks for the help Leonidas 02:31:08 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@pool-70-111-163-83.nwrk.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:31:09 jinho: sure. Glad you asked about a one of the few exercises from SICP that I actually did. 02:31:17 haha 02:31:24 you would still need a special form that does conditional evaluation 02:31:36 aspect: you mean for the macro? 02:31:47 aspect: sure, but there is cond 02:31:52 jinho: yes 02:32:26 I generally assume either COND is defined in terms of IF or vice-versa -- one of them must be a primitive 02:32:38 jinho: take a look at this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy I learned a bit reading it. 02:32:59 kk thanks 02:34:02 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@pool-70-111-163-83.nwrk.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:30 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:04 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 02:37:50 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:43:23 at every job i go to, i essentially ignore their insistence upon java, python, etc.; and do it in scheme 02:43:33 though i haven't been fired yet, that may not always be the case 02:44:29 klutometis, what kind of apps? Web stuff? 02:44:55 dsmith: yeah; but also desktop apps and expert systems 02:45:34 it's probably a good litmus test, too: anyone that cares more about the vehicle than the business result probably won't be in business very long 02:47:41 that was supposedly paul graham's secret; but i guess he isn't do much these days besides giving allowance to green grads 02:47:53 doing* 02:48:54 -!- hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:39 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 02:53:10 btw0 [n=wu@mail.madk.org] has joined #scheme 03:03:03 underspecified_ [n=eric@c-98-218-113-52.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:54 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@c-98-218-113-52.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:44 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:44 Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:33 whoa! http://per.bothner.com/blog/2008/AndroidHelloScheme/ 03:11:55 yeah 03:14:52 still looks like a lotta effort (I have an android phone but haven't been able to force myself to write Java for it) 03:17:43 la la la 03:19:03 underspecified_ [n=eric@c-98-218-113-52.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:19:57 -!- underspecified [n=eric@c-68-50-36-52.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:50 why the hell does YAML exist: is it s-expressions for people with parenthetiphobia? 03:28:15 s/YAML/XML 03:28:26 YAML is a simpler XML 03:28:43 that's what i mean: it reminds be of s-expressions with whitespace and other tricks 03:29:05 xml less so, simply because of it's verbosity (though it's easily mappable to S) 03:29:24 well, they used to use s-expression for such things 03:29:40 look at some of the stuff Rivest put out 03:29:57 but SGML was trendy, while being too complicated 03:30:10 so then there was XML and that took off 03:30:19 nice; case in point, though: i'm trying to interact with the mediawiki API, and have a hideous array of verbose permutations on SGML to choose from 03:30:22 -!- hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:30:49 then there's YAML; "why not sexps," I think to myself 03:30:52 but no s-expessions 03:30:56 exactly 03:31:00 hmm 03:31:18 could you write a simple mapper from YAML to s-exps? 03:31:28 sure; chicken even has an egg, for instance 03:31:28 or maybe such a thing already exists 03:31:39 well then 03:31:43 :) 03:32:36 but it seems like YAML is superfluous when a less verbose representation of XML already exists 03:32:36 mbishop_ [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has joined #scheme 03:32:43 another day in the life of a lisp hacker, i guess 03:33:35 incubot: short-end-of-the-stick-dom sometimes gets me down 03:33:38 *stick 03:33:42 thanks 03:33:52 klutometis: of course (YAML is s-expressions for people with parenthetiphobia) 03:33:59 same reason JSON exists. 03:34:49 offby1: good point; but it seems like json just replaces parenthesis with curly braces 03:34:58 kinda 03:35:22 offby1: I think Crockford more or less admits that though 03:35:37 he's heavily influenced by Scheme 03:35:43 all the good ones are :) 03:35:52 supposedly Javascript was going to be scheme at first 03:36:16 it was supposed to be a Scheme the unwashed masses of programmers could stomach 03:36:26 which is why it evolved into Javascript 03:36:36 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:37:11 but the creators of Javascript freely admit to being heavily influenced by Scheme and fans of the langauge 03:37:23 what is it about parentheses that scares people so?! 03:37:25 *offby1* frets 03:38:00 I wonder if a numbered count of paren depth in the fonts would help 03:38:29 did R6RS define some standard file extensions? 03:38:32 like (subscript(12) where subscript is below the parens 03:38:33 offby1: Riastradh has an interesting idea that it relates to eye spots, or the apotropaic devices of butterflies 03:39:01 I've seen some discussion about this and remember seeing some .sls files but I am not sure. 03:39:03 taking a cue from freud, i think it relates to the multiplication of mammaries and the fear of castration 03:39:15 .oO("apotropaic devices of butterflies") 03:39:31 offby1: you know, those spots they grow to ward off predators 03:39:41 I would look up that word to see what it means but I'm pretty sure I'd never use it again 03:39:43 ah 03:39:54 http://www.richard-seaman.com/Insects/TrinidadAndTobago/Butterflies/OwlButterfly/OwlButterflySecondEyeSpots.jpg 03:39:55 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/9arwjv 03:40:06 ah, I know what those are 03:40:13 offby1, it's not immediately evident that you can learn to read parenthesese just like you can read infix syntax 03:40:16 interesting idea, anyway 03:41:03 Adamant: one if the lisppastes does an interesting color-coding based on paren-depth; maybe that would help, too 03:41:07 of* 03:41:37 cads: if you say so. They never bothered _me_ ... 03:41:41 klutometis: you would start running into problems with deep nesting though 03:42:01 indeed; up against average joe's color differentiation 03:42:30 "is that fucsia or rose?" 03:43:07 klutometis: do you know which lisp paste does that? I saw one where the background color of the text you were hovering your mouse over was changed according to the level of nesting 03:43:20 cads: that's what i'm talking about; i suspect it's... 03:43:21 lisppaste: url 03:43:22 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 03:43:30 I was looking for it the other day but the one that I found only colored the parens 03:44:15 cads: the wiki might 03:44:25 cads: yeah; here's a specimen: http://paste.lisp.org/display/59867 03:45:05 http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-style 03:45:26 code blocks on the wiki show background colors of scope and such 03:45:52 mbishop_: that is it exacty! 03:45:53 thanks 03:46:27 been looking for that 03:46:36 I suspect it's just a style sheet 03:46:42 cads, how long did it take you to learn to read infix syntax? It happened pretty early on in your education, of course, so you may not remember well how long it took. 03:46:47 but it's really pretty 03:47:12 Riastradh: there is absolutely that aspect of it 03:49:08 I think having infixed operators is a little bit more mnemonic than prefixed operators, possibly just for the reason of it being so ingrained from early education 03:50:52 i find it interesting that the first arabic mathematicians worked in prefix 03:52:01 hrm 03:52:48 hey Riastradh 03:52:54 it occurred to me that expressing a math equation in a programming language is usually not very elegant in whatever system 03:54:03 having to write pow(x, y) and whatnot, instead of using the more succinct math notation 03:54:57 that always bugged me, because if you want the math typesetting, you have to write even less problem specific code and write typesetting functions :D 03:55:44 prefix notation then feels more like saying "fuck it", and exlicitly using no syntax at all :D 03:55:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-155.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 03:56:02 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-155.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 03:56:37 cads: after learning scheme, i immediately begin to sketch my mathematical proofs in prefix sans parentheses; which led to ambiguity 03:57:02 : ) 04:00:18 hrm 04:00:27 I am coming from ruby 04:00:55 and am having a hard time grasping lisp and using it usefully 04:00:56 oh, i love the ruby trick that eli showed me 04:01:10 it's such a silly bug - too bad that they fixed it in 1.9 04:01:27 cads: That's why I like using  instead of lambda. using multiple letters for a simple concept can get very annoying at times. 04:01:54 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180068079.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:01:55 Yeah, I think we need a letter for the word `Schadenfreude'; there are too many letters in such a useful, common concept. 04:01:55 .. I don't like rubys lambdas and closures 04:02:05 pow isn't too bad, though it sounds ambiguous... 04:02:19 Riastradh: Take it to the Chinese! 04:02:32 Riastradh: are you back from your trip? 04:02:35 synx, you use the lambda charachter in your code? 04:03:08 Riastradh: ah, but that's part of its polysyllabic Teutonic gravitas! 04:03:13 closures are a very simple specialization on lambda... 04:03:33 cads: Yeah, and the editor even has a special key for outputting  04:03:39 I'm not going to pretend to understand what synx just said, and instead I'm going to pretend not to have heard it. 04:03:42 there is a way of doing that in haskell and emacs, but then again in haskell lambda is \ so that's pretty close already 04:04:04 synx, that's neat, how do I do that? 04:04:27 I'm guessing it should work in whatever setting you'd want  to stand for lambda? 04:05:02 well, some scheme interpreters can't handle the  character... 04:05:39 other than that yeah, just make a keyboard shortcut or whatever. I don't know your editor. 04:07:01 :imap  04:09:35 *klutometis* just registered parenthetiphobia.org; maybe it can be a support group for the other 90% 04:09:44 sort of like "von neumann anonymous" 04:11:10 ))))))) 04:11:27 ouch, my eyes 04:11:58 re: mathematical notation vs scheme: Sussman has some things to say about that in ``The Role of Programming in the Formulation of Ideas'' 04:11:58 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2726904509434151616 04:11:58 http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6707 04:11:58 Summary: Mathematical notation is an often imprecise mess, Scheme wins 04:12:18 After a bunch of ))))) it's nearly impossible for me to tell what state my program is going to be in. The editor thankfully can tell you that pretty efficiently... 04:12:49 p1dzkl: that was a great lecture; the one that justifies SICM, isn't it? 04:12:54 yes 04:13:40 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 04:14:46 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 04:14:46 Riastradh: are we on for tomorrow? 04:16:07 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:17:42 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180069254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:46 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:27:12 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 04:32:00 okay 04:32:06 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:32:58 so as a first project I have some orbiting body code that I wrote in ruby, which I will reimplement in scheme.. 04:33:36 so I'll need to know how to create a new datatype and functions associated with it, which should be simple 04:34:13 and I'll need to draw some graphics, which I'd like suggestions as to what I should use 04:34:34 Pencil & paper. 04:34:39 what scheme system are you using? 04:34:54 is drscheme good? 04:34:57 naw. 04:34:58 yea 04:35:03 rudybot: eval (banner) 04:35:03 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.3.6 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 04:35:29 you can either use in the built in mred drawing stuff or I wrote a library that uses a better drawing library written in C 04:36:13 ooh. 04:36:20 on PLaneT? 04:36:30 yea, but something broke and the latest release isnt listed 04:36:30 mred is part of drscheme? 04:36:52 mzscheme is the base engine, mred is a gui library built on top of mzscheme, drscheme uses mred to create a graphical frontend for mzscheme 04:36:53 cads: yes. 04:37:08 topriddy1 [n=JAVABOY@80.255.61.29] has joined #scheme 04:37:46 offby1, http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=allegro.plt&owner=kazzmir this anyway 04:37:52 but the latest is 2 4, not 2 3 04:37:54 la la la 04:38:26 i have to update the docs someday for it.. 04:38:34 so much to do, so lazy 04:39:19 "kazzmir", eh? 04:39:24 *offby1* looks jonrafkind up and down 04:39:36 i was young and reckless 04:39:49 cads: are you implementing keplerian mechanics, or something more sophisto? 04:40:50 more Mephisto! 04:40:57 *offby1* looks eagerly at minion 04:41:16 minion: chant! 04:41:16 MORE MEPHISTO 04:41:34 klutometis, right now it's just eulerian integrator for simple N-body dynamics 04:42:44 ruby was too slow for the number crunching, and the graphics library i had found was too basic (the ellipse drawing function was removed after an update and that just broke my will to continue using it) 04:43:13 "ruby was too slow for the number crunching" <-- 04:43:16 *offby1* sniggers 04:43:32 ruby is too slow for basically anything 04:43:36 so I've been trying to jump onto another platform that'll compile my code to machine code 04:43:37 except RAD of course 04:43:45 cads: mzscheme is the fastest language I've found for integer math, except for the various Common Lisps 04:43:47 that includes C 04:44:29 Haskell is close at its heels though 04:44:38 ruby's object orientation made implementing the code really comfortable and I'm having a hard time doing the same in haskell 04:44:52 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:07 cads: can you post some code? 04:45:17 Are you talking about bignum arithmetic, offby1, or k-bit modular integer arithmetic? 04:46:36 bignum 04:47:24 OK. 04:48:18 I'm talking about my little anagrams program, which I've learned -- through excoriation from foof(?) -- not to refer to as a "benchmark" 04:48:29 rudybot: seen forcer 04:48:30 offby1: forcer was seen joining in/on :#scheme four days, five hours ago, and then forcer was seen quitting in/on e179194055.adsl.alicedsl.de four days, five hours ago, saying "Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)" 04:48:38 huh, can't remember when I last saw him 04:50:05 klutometis: this is all the code I needed to make the existing array class into a arbitrary dimensional vector space class: http://pastie.org/348123 04:51:49 egh, kind_of? 04:52:34 -!- topriddy1 [n=JAVABOY@80.255.61.29] has left #scheme 04:53:05 synx: does "egh" fall somewhere between ugh and meh? 04:53:17 I guess it makes sense, since * is ambiguous and poorly defined. 04:53:29 klutometis: sounds about right! 04:54:00 this is some code which will take a group of bodies and move them according to the gravity forces between them: http://pastie.org/348125 04:54:06 is "cc" a keyword in scheme? 04:54:19 nm 04:54:32 cads: is that usually how people override functions in the ruby world: dispatch on kind_of? 04:54:35 There are keywords in scheme? 04:55:05 because the bodies use the vector code, that code can take a list of 2 dimensional bodies, or 10 dimensional bodies 04:55:30 jinho: Just (define cc call-with-current-continuation) if you want. 04:55:42 There's crying in baseball? 04:55:50 klutometis, that was a kludge for defining the dot product and scalar product 04:56:10 synx: sorry i misread a line of code- yeah it was basically doing something like you wrote 04:56:33 klutometis, there are more elegant ways to write multifunctions 04:56:38 jinho: "cc" might be an abbreviation for "call-with-current-continuation" (really!) but it's a regular procedure, not a keyword 04:56:40 I wouldn't call function overloading a "cludge" necessarily, but kind_of? is something that raises flags. 04:56:48 jinho: actually you might have seen "call/cc" 04:57:04 "call/cc" is itself the abbreviation. 04:57:14 oh, what does call-with-current-continuation mean? 04:57:16 just an ordinary (albeit hard-to-comprehend) procedure 04:57:19 wow 04:57:28 anyone want to handle that? Riastradh ? 04:57:37 klutometis: 04:57:39 ? 04:57:40 anyone? 04:57:41 Bueller? 04:57:46 offby1: beat me to bueller 04:57:50 :) 04:57:53 it's a trope. 04:58:02 I'm looking at the number of ways to count change problem in SICP- and so I'm guessing "cc" really means "count change" 04:58:07 CWCC is a procedure that accepts one argument, another procedure, and applies to that procedure a third procedure representing the continuation of the call to CWCC. 04:58:19 ::head explodes:: 04:58:33 cads: Why not just make mathematical vector functions that use ordinary arrays? 04:58:36 jinho: it probably does mean "count change", in your situation :) 04:58:42 I think i read that problem recently. 04:58:45 Try counting change before calling continuations. 04:59:03 Don't look to leader: watch the parking meters. 04:59:04 jinho: An appropriate reaction 04:59:08 s/leader/leaders/ 04:59:56 call/cc divides a function in twain 05:00:15 synx, essentially that's what I did, I created the Vector class from the Array class, and overloaded the * + - / operators 05:00:49 as well as adding a vector magnitude function, vector normalization, and stuff 05:00:58 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:01:05 cads: That makes * + - and / even more ambiguous though... 05:01:30 (/ a b) I want to know what that means, not have to guess at the type of a and b in order to do so. 05:02:13 you have to know the types of a and b even if / is named scalar_vector_division 05:03:03 Only because you use kind_of? cads, instead of making new functions with different names. 05:03:07 (vector-divide a b) would be much nicer in my opinion. 05:03:12 Suppose a is a vector over a field K and b is a scalar in K. 05:03:36 What could (/ a b) sensibly mean, aside from the scalar multiple 1/b of a? 05:04:12 I'm not making those suppositions. What would (/ b a) mean? 05:04:37 I don't know what `vector division' is, unless the vector space in question is a division algebra. 05:05:05 (/ b a) wouldn't mean anything, if a is an element of an arbitrary vector space; it would presumably be an error. 05:05:45 heh 05:05:48 Riastradh: true, division is not usually defined as vectors.. in this case it's defined as scalar multiplication by the reciprocial of a number 05:06:29 some would say scalar multiplication is a specialization of vector multiplication... 05:07:00 and indeed, although a * b is defined if a is a vector and b is either a vector or a numeric, in the second case of numeric b, b * a is an error 05:07:36 All I know is that it works better for me to not have multiple algorithms in the same function. 05:08:15 that was really to make the notation closer to the one that I use when I'm working with vectors and scalars on paper 05:08:47 magic where (/ a b) can tell whether to scalar-divide the scalars a and b, vector-multiply a by 1/b, or concatenate a and b to form the directory name "a/b", seems untenable to me. 05:10:10 how's that done in lisp? 05:10:33 In scheme you mean? 05:11:01 Would you be happier, synx, with a SCALE procedure, and requiring / to apply only to elements of division algebras or only to elements of fields? 05:11:19 how's that done in your typical lisp, I meant 05:12:00 yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:12:13 isn't this just multimethod dispatch? ... umm, not sure if that's correct, but just the idea of chosing different functions according to the types of the arguments 05:12:17 -!- btw0 [n=wu@mail.madk.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:12:44 according to the nature of the arguments perhaps, but I don't like to mess with type. 05:13:15 `Don't like to mess with type'? 05:13:46 it's useful with vectors where the operations that correspond to the mathematical operators are so idiomatic that it's useful to be able to be able to use them 05:14:51 but I can see how it would be annoying if each class used its own kind of magic to map different concepts to the same operators 05:15:02 Riastradh: yes, I don't. 05:15:53 What is `the nature of the arguments' that is not `type'? 05:16:12 value? 05:16:14 Like if the argument is <10 or something. 05:16:19 Termination conditions. 05:16:38 Well, what precludes `the real numbers less than 10' from being a type? 05:17:00 your language's typing practice? 05:17:31 there are typing disciplines that throw in the kitchen sink :D 05:17:33 I don't really know what you're getting at... 05:18:12 hrm 05:18:42 where do I start off with scheme? I need to write some code and stop flapping my fingers 05:19:20 I will find a hello fibonnacci tutorial 05:19:23 I might use a cond to match whether a list were empty or not, or to match whether a number were greater or less than a limit. But I wouldn't use it to check whether it was a list, number or a widget, and act as 3 different functions depending on which it is. 05:20:22 cads: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/quick/index.html 05:20:56 I thought that tutorial was neat. ^.^ 05:21:01 synx, should I install plt or am I really okay with drscheme? 05:21:21 Gosling: Oh, sure. I don't know what you call a "language in that family." Is any language that uses braces in the C family? Is AWK in the C family? You might call AWK in the C family. And I'd sure like to think that there's room for more languages; whether they're in the C family or not is almost irrelevant. 05:21:21 One of the real tragedies of the years before Java came out was that programming language research had almost stopped worldwide. Then Java came out and Java was actually successful. When I've gone to universities, one of the comments I've gotten a lot was, "Wow, you've really legitimized the whole study of programming languages." I think it would be a tragic statement of the universe if Java was the last language that swept through. I would hope tha 05:21:28 cads: same thing 05:21:34 sorry for the spew 05:21:39 but thought it was interesting 05:22:58 *cads* was reading about how sun just ate a few companies that were being moderately unsuccessful at designing vm languages, and put all that into the jvm 05:23:48 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:23:57 I feel like we have a lot more open language research now, a lot of stuff being released that was proprietary research code for a company that died 10 years ago 05:24:02 err, 15* 05:24:39 btw0 [n=wu@mail.madk.org] has joined #scheme 05:24:46 back then they hoarded it an tried desperately to make a profit 05:25:35 Sun is kind of like mainframes 05:25:47 I find the increasing proportion of research being done by private companies worrying across the board. 05:25:53 Hopefully you're right cads... 05:25:53 they're supposed to have died a long time ago but keep on kicking 05:26:44 synx, it bugs me how the research world can't make a mainstream language 05:27:25 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 05:27:26 what's used in the mainstream is always going to be some lowest common denominator language which has had a lot of money thrown at its compiler 05:27:45 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176197106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:52 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176199254.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:28:09 I don't like C# either, yeah... 05:28:13 Just a bunch of hype. 05:28:20 :S 05:28:21 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:29:13 cads: the hugely optimizing compiler is the hard bit 05:30:23 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:31:15 well, take c and unix... there was a time where people said no way can a OS kernel be written in anything other than ASM 05:31:36 synx: I don 05:31:38 augh 05:31:44 research compilers that are as fast as commercial language ones, like O'Caml's and Haskell's, have taken a similar course to create themselves as the commercial ones 05:32:05 while C is so low level to begin with that I think people today have a hard time appreciating how much work it is to make a compiler still 05:32:23 evoli [n=yuhsin@MASS-TOOLPIKE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:32:36 Adamant, yeah 05:33:05 I don't really have an idea of how much work went into getting the c compilers to where they are now 05:33:45 but I wonder where lisp would be if those resources had been used for development of its compilers 05:34:06 gcc is written in lisp 05:34:14 there are a fuckton of man-years in all of those, a fair amount of money, lots of papers, and in the case of research langs, they get some extra good people to offset the lack of funding and time 05:35:05 hey evoli! 05:35:11 long time no see! 05:40:36 wow, I just realized this other cool fact about m acros 05:40:55 macros essentially say: I just rewrite code ... therefore, if you see two of me, you can apply us together & do compiler simplifications at compile time, too! 05:43:43 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@chld.ru] has joined #scheme 05:46:46 hml: i find your use of the first person disturbing 05:47:19 it should be a perry bible fellowship comic, or something 05:47:34 hey are scheme macros turing complete? 05:47:50 incubot: are scheme macros turing complete? 05:47:52 Yeah....were doing the Turing test....Im the confederate, youre the judge....or did you forget? 05:49:49 incubot: I tried to fry an egg once with syntax-rules 05:49:52 ricky_clarkson: if I ever tried it out, I'd see how big of a deal it is in actual code 05:50:59 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 05:51:15 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:51:23 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 05:51:45 -!- yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 05:55:56 -!- wartalker [n=WarTalke@210.51.173.167] has left #scheme 05:59:03 yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:59:32 i think i asked this earlier; in chicken (or scheme in general) is it possible to access vars that represent the current filename & line number?, i.e. the equivof __FILE__ and __LINE__ in C 06:00:54 which version of scheme are you guys using- and why? 06:02:40 #!current-line 06:02:44 #!current-file 06:02:45 in chicken 06:02:53 it wasn't documented so we had to hunt it down 06:03:02 turns out they're reader macro's 06:03:06 how did you hunt them down? 06:03:09 apparently elf added them for me when i asked the same question 06:03:13 grep mainly 06:03:13 oh 06:03:44 jinho, i'm using PLT scheme because it's a simple little self contained IDE 06:03:44 i saw your question earlier but i couldn't remember what he had done 06:03:46 grep "line" *.scm in build/chicken-3.4.0 brings back alot 06:03:48 -!- evoli [n=yuhsin@MASS-TOOLPIKE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["leaving"] 06:03:53 did you also know the word 'current' was in it? 06:03:57 tried current | line etc.. 06:03:59 yeah 06:04:39 thanks for your help; the only output I see fofr: grep "current-line" *.scm is: library.scm: [(string=? "current-line" tok) 06:04:47 yeah 06:04:49 even if I saw that, i'm not sure i'd arrive at #!current-line 06:04:56 turns out it was a reader hack 06:05:19 lol, i'm moving from sicp to sicp + macros; reader hacks are a couple pay grades above me 06:09:06 what are the most robust libraries for using scheme in a distributed manner? 06:24:52 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-133-89.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 06:26:49 do you guys know of a paper which defines scheme from the bottom up in math paper expositionary? Growing it from the axioms, as it were? 06:27:01 expositionary style* 06:27:27 http://www.appsolutions.com/SchemeDS/ 06:27:30 something like that? 06:30:15 I haven't read mccarthy's original lambda papers, but I'm imagining something like a math paper which covers modern scheme and has the purpose of being educational/expanding your mind, above being complete like the standard might 06:32:15 you know how math papers start off with giving a random letter some properties (so I might say that E is the environment, and that eval is a function that maps E to E') 06:32:18 McCarthy's original papers on Lisp are hardly worth calling `lambda papers'; Sussman & Steele's original papers on Scheme are more often the referent of that term. 06:32:45 ach 06:32:50 yes 06:33:46 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:34:25 I seem to learn things so much better when simple mathematical formalisms are used to introduce things 06:35:22 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:36:01 agemo_ [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #scheme 06:36:23 -!- agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:37:44 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:37:51 If you really want to approach Scheme by way of rigorous mathematical foundations, you will have to start with the foundations of programming language semantics, one approach to which is Scott-Strachey denotationl semantics, to which David Schmidt's introduction is decent. Then Section 7 of the R5RS will be straightforward. 06:40:17 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:41:04 But I don't think that would be a very rewarding approach. 06:42:39 I could also tell you less rigorously that: (1) a store is a map from locations to values, (2) an environment is a map from names to locations (an environment maps a name to the location where the value of the variable by that name is stored), (3) a command continuation is a map from a store to an answer, (4) an expression continuation is a map from an environment to a command continuation, and (5) E is a map from expressions to 06:46:19 Then you can read Section 7 loosely (translate it to Scheme notation if you wish), and make somewhat less rigorous sense of it. That would be less circuitous, at least. 06:50:07 -!- yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:01:17 -!- jinho [n=jinho@user-387gl9p.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:01:30 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:03:19 denotational semantics is something that i've been meaning to study, anyhow 07:21:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:31:58 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has left #scheme 07:34:54 la la la 07:37:57 -!- Lemonator [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:42:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:07:45 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:08:10 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-069-161-241.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 08:25:04 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has 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hello.... 16:42:15 Please don't shout at me - I am a n00b and have been told this is the place I should start for programming? 16:43:31 n3m3s1s4u: If you've never programmed before, I usually recommend The Little Schemer to start with 16:43:40 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.176.218] has joined #scheme 16:43:43 It's not available online, afaik, though 16:43:56 The Little Schemer....? 16:44:01 It's a book :) 16:44:11 at one of the link above? 16:44:14 d/l pdf? 16:44:21 No, unfortunately not 16:44:31 You can get it at many libraries, though 16:44:50 So its called - little Schemer? 16:44:56 yes 16:45:09 ok 16:45:18 I have the SICP PDF....that also good to start with? 16:45:41 It's harder, but you can try it 16:46:08 You can check out the video lectures from the topic, that go along with the book 16:46:40 ok thanks 16:46:45 yw 16:47:08 What are the main differences then from SICP / Little Schemer and Schemer? 16:47:14 oooh and LISP 16:47:50 They're completely different books 16:49:10 TLS is more about teaching you to think recursively, while SICP is more about designing and building algorithms 16:49:15 of them all - what is a good start / easiest to learn - giving me the basics to move onto bigger languages? 16:49:31 SICP is the best 16:49:46 Well, I recommended TLS for a reason, if you're absolutely new to programming 16:50:04 ok 16:50:20 so its a tossup between SICP and TLS 16:50:25 -!- ExcelsisD [i=email@89.180.218.182] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:50:27 I wouldn't put it that way 16:50:32 n3m3s1s4u, n 16:50:33 n3m3s1s4u, o 16:50:40 I'd read TLS first, and if you understand that, read SICP 16:51:05 lol 16:52:49 thanks all - speak to you when i am finished TLS... 16:56:42 -!- n3m3s1s4u [n=glenn@dsl-145-39-112.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #scheme 16:57:33 *sjamaan* wonders if we'll ever see that one back :) 16:57:34 -!- echo-area [i=herbert@114.240.125.252] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:51 mib_qn9hy42l [i=80d2031d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-46ed07e577ce8240] has joined #scheme 17:05:18 -!- mib_qn9hy42l [i=80d2031d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-46ed07e577ce8240] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:29 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-120-170.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:05:53 -!- szgyg [n=luni@dsl51B7A998.pool.t-online.hu] has left #scheme 17:06:05 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-130-100.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 17:11:20 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:22 hark [n=strider@hark.slew.org] has joined #scheme 17:19:23 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-178-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:19:32 yhara_ [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:19:51 -!- yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:21:43 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 17:30:58 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:31:07 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:32:09 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 17:32:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:34:39 Mr-Cat [n=Mr-Cat@bahirkin1507.dialup.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 17:36:30 vasa [n=vasa@mm-120-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 17:37:46 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:37:58 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 17:38:08 TLS is rather condescending in its cheery attempts at being cute. I mean come on, jelly stains? 17:38:15 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-120-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:27 vasa [n=vasa@mm-120-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 17:38:51 geckosenator [n=sean@adsl-68-73-100-241.dsl.dytnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:39:08 I must be the only one who finds learning by repetition to be terribly confusing. 17:39:23 synx, too late the guys not going to read SICP 17:39:29 synx: It's all in good fun 17:39:48 Of course, not everybody likes the same things 17:40:17 vixey: I doubt he's going to read TLS either 17:41:24 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:42:04 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/0000000000]"] 17:42:25 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:44:42 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:41 dzhus [n=user@93.81.181.113] has joined #scheme 17:51:10 playground analogies are great for showing what a list is. 17:51:27 You have a bunch of kids, and when they line up at the end of recess each line is a list. 17:51:54 The paint on the ground where they line up is like a null list 17:52:18 ... I thought that's how scheme worked? 17:52:48 You can add a kid to the line, but you can't add a line to the kid, so that's why (cons a b) doesn't produce a list, if b is not a list. 17:53:11 that didn't make any sense at all!! 17:53:34 magical children having fun power scheme, and nemesis 4 u, he shall surely reach enlightenment soons 17:53:56 Why bother with these weird analogues at all? 17:54:15 when we could just teach people that lolcat programming language, straight up? 17:54:18 because the recursive definition of lists needs to be explained somehow 17:54:25 Everything is an analogy Mr-Cat. 17:55:09 We can't understand the true nature of an experience, only the connections between it and our other experiences. 17:55:40 indeed there need not be a true nature 17:55:57 synx, you should study logic 17:55:59 synx: But the 'children-in-line' analogy is too far from scheme, IMHO 17:56:20 i was wondering how jelly stains came into play 17:56:48 I believe, SICP has a good explaination of cons 17:56:53 Elly, what's wrong with good old postulating existence of sets with elements closed under operations? 17:57:22 vixey: my statement does not preclude that definition 18:03:08 -!- glorybox [n=ssinkovs@195.238.191.213] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:06:37 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:50 *sjamaan* recommends synx to read _why's Poignant Guide to Ruby for a good brain reset :) 18:07:13 TLS is peanuts compared to that insanity 18:10:25 No I like why's guide. That's what I was saying is that TLS is peanuts. Kind of half assed. 18:10:54 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:11:54 The book teaches recursion and representations in a deep way 18:11:59 I don't think that's half-assed 18:12:23 If it's too basic for you, I can understand; it's not targeted at seasoned programmers 18:13:05 It's not that it's basic, just repetitive. I think the kiddie stuff is half-assed. 18:13:38 Ah, right 18:13:51 I think that's the methodology 18:13:58 It either works for you or it doesn't 18:14:05 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 18:16:37 Best way to learn recursion is to write a book about how to learn recursion. 18:16:51 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:58 :) 18:17:01 ))) 18:17:52 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 18:18:39 har har 18:23:59 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:24:12 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:51 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:30:20 -!- __name__ is now known as name 18:34:23 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:42:10 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:41 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@chld.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:13 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:49:22 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:49:44 Accidus [n=ohad@78-86-108-193.dsl.cnl.uk.net] has joined #scheme 18:52:18 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:52:36 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:53:09 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 18:54:17 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:56:10 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:56:50 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 18:56:54 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:14 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@59.174.134.54] has quit [Success] 19:06:46 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:24 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 19:13:36 yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:14:09 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:15:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-48.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:54 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:29 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 19:25:57 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 19:29:33 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 19:33:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:35:13 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 19:37:12 yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:41:19 dum de dum 19:43:46 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A2DED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:12 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 19:47:27 dum. dum dum. 19:50:25 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:52:23 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:39 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/0000000000]"] 20:01:33 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [No route to host] 20:03:10 -!- offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:05:45 Accidus___ [n=ohad@78-86-111-180.dsl.cnl.uk.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:46 -!- Accidus [n=ohad@78-86-108-193.dsl.cnl.uk.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:06:50 -!- Accidus___ is now known as accidus 20:07:11 -!- accidus [n=ohad@78-86-111-180.dsl.cnl.uk.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:15 dudrenov [n=user@h-67-101-217-41.snfccasy.covad.net] has joined #scheme 20:11:36 Hello, do you guys know of any pdf parsers written in scheme? 20:11:41 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:16:59 pdf what? 20:17:33 Ah, sorry 20:17:46 No, newer heard of such a thing 20:18:48 Looking at adobe's pdf specification ATM, it's over 900 pages long. So having some code to look at would have been helpful :/ 20:19:12 But using, say, chicken, you'll be able to use any external library featuring C interface 20:21:24 Yes, ofcaurse, but I need it for unrelated thing not just an interface. And I'd rather read a huge scheme program, thena a huge C program. In the end I'll probably end up reading some ones C code and the scep 20:23:18 isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:24:54 oSand [n=heartles@203.114.183.98] has joined #scheme 20:26:30 -!- oSand [n=heartles@203.114.183.98] has quit [Client Quit] 20:26:54 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:29:45 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.38.213] has joined #scheme 20:33:06 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E96.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:33:51 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 20:34:39 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:35:21 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 20:40:13 -!- yhara [n=yhara@ZC046088.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:42:21 Qaexl [n=Akashakr@dsl027-162-163.atl1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:25 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:22 sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:44:01 choas [n=lars@p5B0DDCB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:33 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:32 Is plt-r6rs approach to managing libraries described in some standart or specification? Or is it just a plt's own solution? 20:46:24 i'd like to know too 20:48:13 Seems that I'll have to make an ikarus PKGBUILD in order to find out )) 20:49:52 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:22 -!- dzhus [n=user@93.81.181.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:51:45 well wait a few hours Mr-Cat 20:52:12 ikarus 0.0.4 is being released in few hours 20:52:35 ))) Anyway, I was not going to do it right now 20:55:12 Will there be some considerable improvements in 0.0.4? 20:55:27 over 0.0.3 yes 20:55:54 x86-64 support? 20:55:59 yes 20:56:12 https://launchpad.net/ikarus/+milestone/0.0.4 20:57:13 Mmm, leppie, I believe, IronScheme is r6rs? Does it manage libraries in a similar way as plt-r6rs? 20:57:26 no, the same as ikarus 20:59:26 R6RMess 20:59:27 libraries in IronScheme can load from 3 places, the current directory, the specified lib directory, or the directory where the exe exists 21:00:36 So, It does not have the main.sls-in-the-folder feature? 21:00:36 so say you have a (foo bar) library it will look for ~/foo/bar.sls (or .ss) where ~ is the search path 21:00:38 does Ikarus compile to C or machine code? 21:01:02 dudrenov: machine 21:01:02 leppie: This is what plt does 21:01:03 not ironscheme, not botherd with that 21:01:13 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-84-110-173-19.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:14 i know ikarus tried something too 21:01:14 interesting 21:02:36 Well, plt, ikarus and iron seem to be nore or less compatible if library name consists of two components 21:02:46 s/nore/more 21:03:37 yes that the idea 21:04:09 Still, R6RmesS, but not fatal 21:04:30 I can't beileve you guys use RSucksRS 21:04:40 what's the problem with R5RS again? 21:04:48 most R6RS libraries runs the same and correctly on the R6RS implementatations 21:05:23 Wow, this Ikarus sounds really interesting. 21:05:24 vixey: no problems with r5rs, I'm just learning how to write portable r6rs code 21:05:33 Is it good/stable enough? 21:06:01 yes dudrenov 21:06:12 disregard the low version number 21:06:44 ypsilon is good for testing R6RS 21:06:51 Well I know what I'm doing tonight after I go home from work. 21:08:31 Its fun being you :) 21:08:56 leppie: Ypsilon is an interpreter, right? 21:09:09 yes 21:09:33 So, ikarus is the only native code r6rs compiler? 21:10:19 queston: Does it suppert any kind of FFI? My guess in not, and how would one go about making bindings for [insert name here] C library for it? 21:10:41 I guess I can just wait and look at source/read docs tonight. 21:10:55 dudrenov: that site leppie mentioned mentions an rudimentary FFI 21:11:21 dudrenov: According to the link to launchpad above, some basic FFI will be available in 0.0.4 21:11:52 Ya I did not read it, I went directly to the project home page. 21:11:55 sorry 21:12:29 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:12:29 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 21:12:29 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 21:12:29 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 21:12:45 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:50 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 21:12:56 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 21:13:26 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-84-110-173-19.red.bezeqint.net] has left #scheme 21:14:11 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 21:14:24 lol 21:14:37 lol? 21:15:01 @ bots causing floods 21:17:16 bots don't cause floods, people cause floods 21:19:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 21:20:12 They'll take my bot when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers 21:20:43 Hm. 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[n=elly@unaffiliated/elly] has joined #scheme 21:49:29 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 21:49:29 aspect [n=aspect@64.22.124.11] has joined #scheme 21:49:29 peyt [n=pete@li6-11.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 21:49:29 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #scheme 21:50:11 sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 21:50:11 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 21:50:11 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 21:50:11 leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-170-46-wfor-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 21:50:11 inhortte [i=polaris@fucksheep.org] has joined #scheme 21:50:11 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 21:54:44 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:56:41 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 22:13:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-120-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:15:15 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@59.172.142.82] has joined #scheme 22:35:53 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["There exists an infinite set!"] 22:36:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:40:00 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:16 mdmkolbe [n=adamsmd@ip68-103-53-63.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #scheme 22:40:56 Does R6RS include the "include" macro? 22:44:19 dunno. 22:46:07 mdmkolbe: Is there any reason why you wouldn't look it up? 22:47:11 chandler: Well I don't see it in the index of the lang def or the lib section indexes, but I've missing things before that way 22:47:58 mdmkolbe: AFAIK, it really doesn't 22:47:58 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 22:48:34 Besides, I see no reason, why 'include' should be used instean of import 22:48:43 s/instean/instead 22:50:09 Mr-Cat: import != include. Many compilers don't do cross-library optimizations and include allows you do include expressions, not just definitions. 22:50:39 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:34 mdmkolbe: I believe, include is too lowlevel to be included in the standard. 22:53:57 mdmkolbe: lack of optimization does not mean impossibility of optimization 22:54:19 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 22:54:57 mdmkolbe: Also, In my opinion, include is not the best way to introduce modular system 22:55:02 Mr-Cat: no, but it does mean lack of optimization. it matters not whether something "could" be optimized, it matters whether implementations do or will optimize it. 22:57:25 mdmkolbe: Then you can use a compiler, which does cross-library optimization, though I don't think, that it's a bottleneck in scheme 22:58:26 Or a you can use compiler, which features include support 22:59:56 Mr-Cat: I'm telling you that (1) a requirement of my project is to be efficient across scheme implementations, (2) to my knowledge there are none that do cross-library optimization ... 22:59:58 ...and (3) I know enough about certain high performance scheme implementations to know for certain that it would be a bottle neck 23:00:22 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:01:36 mdmkolbe: Is it an open or free-to-use implementation you are talking about in (3) ? 23:01:56 mdmkolbe: yes, you can write one 23:02:06 an include macro 23:02:54 So, I don't want to wage a holy war on 'import vs. include', sorry, that I started it 23:03:07 Mr-Cat: I know of one that is and one that isn't, but I'm not at liberty to discuss the one that isn't 23:03:49 and if we read the R6RS spec, we will see the macro too, as an example: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-1.html#node_toc_node_sec_12.6 23:03:51 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/9y2zmc 23:05:04 leppie: ah, perfect 23:05:11 Right, perfect 23:05:16 mdmkolbe: what implementations do you think of when you say "high-performance scheme implementations"? 23:05:25 Mr-Cat: what is the best way to do modules? 23:05:43 i am new to scheme 23:06:05 inertia-: I don't know the best way, but I believe, include is not the one 23:07:34 For example, using include, you should somehow prevent mutual includes and multiple includes of one file 23:07:34 inertia-: usually include is not the best way to do modules. I has a more speciallized use than that. usually the best way is R6RS library forms or (depending on the case) local modules. 23:07:43 s/I has/it has/ 23:08:06 inertia-: it all depends on what you are trying to do 23:08:25 mdmkolbe: So, what about an open high-performance r6rs scheme? 23:08:29 what i think i am trying to do is have a componetized system, so that they all talk to each other over the network 23:08:41 Something like ikarus or ypsilon? 23:08:46 Mr-Cat: yeah 23:09:22 mdmkolbe: i think it would be best to wait for a R6RS Scheme to compiles to C, and let GCC and friends do crosslibrary optimization 23:09:53 inertia-: well components are different than libraries/modules. Components would be orginize running code while libraries orginize static code 23:09:54 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:10:00 i dont think there is even an R6RS implementation that can compile to an executable 23:10:12 leppie: mmm? ikarus? 23:10:20 nope 23:10:34 just pre-expanded libraries 23:10:41 leppie: umm, GCC will never do the kinds of cross library optimization that I'm looking for. 23:10:53 not compiled to binary form 23:11:12 mdmkolbe: ICC then? 23:11:15 leppie: I'm not sure about that I thought ikarus.fasl files were compiled 23:11:21 Mr-Cat: no compiler will 23:11:48 what about stalin? 23:12:17 i saw somewhere they were trying to get psyntax running on it 23:12:17 Mr-Cat: because these are higher level optimizations that once compiled down to C can not be seen by the compiler (e.g. car -> instruction vs car -> proc call) 23:12:22 mdmkolbe: ah are you using a term "component" referring to "units"? i was using it in a non-domain-specific way 23:12:26 but maybe that's what i need 23:13:31 inertia-: well when you talked about being over a network, that made me think you were after run-time modularization similar to units or any object oritented system 23:13:43 yeah 23:14:00 mdmkolbe: i just looked at the content of the ikarus fasl file, and it looks pretty much like serialized content 23:14:39 leppie: for the lists and vectors yeah, but what about the closures and procedures? 23:16:08 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-24-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:17:50 lisppaste: url? 23:17:51 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 23:18:01 synthasee [n=synthase@c-69-243-234-165.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:18:34 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-44-34.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:22:02 rotty pasted "syntax-case woes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72807 23:22:22 what am I doing wrong? 23:23:11 rotty: Nothing? 23:23:12 oh, now I think I see 23:23:38 The last link to lisppaste seems to be correct 23:24:05 Ah, are you asking about the code? 23:24:49 Mr-Cat: yeah, sure 23:24:59 Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 23:25:29 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.187] has joined #scheme 23:25:34 hah, found the bug 23:27:35 mdmkolbe: seems you are correct, just digged into the source :) 23:27:50 actually, don't look at the paste, it's horribly wrong in all kinds of ways 23:28:55 why are you using syntax->list? 23:28:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-99.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:29:06 leppie: mzscheme needs that 23:29:29 ouch 23:29:30 :p 23:29:58 but plt has also an r6rs-compitible syntax-case 23:30:21 ah 23:31:36 rotty annotated #72807 with "Fixed version, using R6RS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72807#1 23:32:54 *rotty* is starting to get a hang of syntax-case 23:33:02 -!- mdmkolbe [n=adamsmd@ip68-103-53-63.ks.ok.cox.net] has left #scheme 23:33:43 something for testing, trying to see what it does 23:35:15 that will work on in the top level, but it could fail if 'test-exception' gets defined somewhere 23:35:36 yeah, but that's ok 23:38:31 so you still have a problem? or does that work? 23:39:01 that works, but now I'm thinking about switching away from testeez -- it's kinda restricting 23:39:18 *rotty* is porting Andy Wingo's texinfo package to r6rs 23:39:51 (and the unit tests that come along with it 23:39:55 ) 23:40:03 ah 23:40:43 they use a GOOPS-based unit test, and I don't want to depend on tinyclos just for that 23:41:16 any suggestions for decent unit-testing approaches/libraries 23:41:18 ? 23:41:26 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 23:41:34 ah good, someone else likes texinfo, i thought i was the lone holdout 23:41:51 derrick eddington has a bunch of stuff 23:41:54 .oO("holder-on?") 23:42:12 naw, "holdout" sounds right 23:42:26 you can try the PLT R6RS test one 23:42:59 *rotty* has written a texinfo-based documentation extractor/formatter, inspired by schmooz 23:43:23 (that I'm trying to port to r6rs now) 23:43:51 leppie: in xitomatl? 23:44:05 yeah 23:44:34 and look in the ikarus libraries place too 23:44:44 as I'm already depending on that (xitomatl), this might well be worth a look 23:45:41 leppie: url? 23:46:19 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:47:52 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-069-163-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:35 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@196-210-170-46-wfor-esr-2.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:57:12 glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.100] has joined #scheme 23:58:02 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 23:59:48 -!- glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.100] has quit [Client Quit]