00:00:50 -!- orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFF27B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Gone."] 00:01:25 rotty: g-i? 00:02:23 eli: gobject-introspection 00:02:44 rotty: what is it exactly, and why is it so great? 00:05:11 eli: http://live.gnome.org/GObjectIntrospection -- it gives you access to full type information of GObject-based libraries (basically all of the GNOME stack, including GTK+), including classes, their methods and the signatures of those, ... all in a rich-enough way that you can do decent fully-automagical bindings 00:05:27 baklava-: have you looked at this? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/sicp/book/node49.html 00:05:36 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:05:51 rotty: is that a run-time thing? 00:06:34 rotty: as I use it in sbank: yes. but it is also used for bindings for more static languages, by using the introspection data for code generation 00:06:41 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055D09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:11 [What's sbank?] 00:07:52 eli: http://rottyforge.yi.org/~rotty/tmp/sbank-README.html (snapshot, WIP) 00:08:18 eli: I intend to port sbank to mzscheme, FWIW 00:08:18 In any case, there was one beginning of a gtk interface that used the foreign library -- and IIRC, it was almost possible to make it all happen automatically from the scheme-syntax gtk description. 00:08:51 But I remember that there were some issues about it, for example it wasn't accurately describing when a function is a constructor etc. 00:09:42 If this gobject-introspection thing is now a library, and if it provides such information, then doing this should be extremely easy. 00:09:47 klutometis: no, what should I be looking for specifically? I think what I'm trying to do is supposed to be quite simple 00:11:18 eli: I have some experience with that approach with guile-gnome (i.e. using the s-expr data generated by h2defs.py). The main problem IMHO was that you still needed to manually patch up the information of h2defs.py, whereas with g-i uses gtk-doc annotations that should go upstream eventually, along with the build steps to build the .typelib and .gir files (binary and XML data describing the API/ABI) 00:12:00 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 00:12:45 eli: yes, it's very straightforward, but there's still a bit of code involved dealing with all the type conversions, memory managment and the like 00:13:29 baklava-: it's a short example on how to manipulate symbolic algebra in scheme 00:13:45 it recurses; it descends, etc. 00:14:41 klutometis: I just want to be able to parse (+(* 3 4) 5) 00:14:54 rotty: why do you need an abi description? 00:15:20 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:15:32 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 00:15:38 eli: struct field offsets, for instance differ on ABI. you coul compute those yourself at runtime, though 00:15:53 baklava-: like i said; if you have some concrete code to look at, it will help considerably 00:16:01 unless you want me to write it 00:16:20 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:16:22 eli: the GIR (XML) is intended to be ABI-agnostic, whereas the .typelib (binary) has ABI-specific information 00:16:34 klutometis: well I can show you one of my functions but I don't even think my process is right so I don't know how it will help 00:17:07 baklava-: sure; paste it 00:17:56 -!- krat3r [n=krat@bl4-33-97.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:18:27 rotty: but why do you need to know about it -- if the interface is so glue-friendly, it should provide you with constructors & accessors so you don't need to know about the binary structure at all. 00:18:54 eli: the code generators targetting static languages typically use the GIR, whereas dynamic languages doing things at runtime using the typelib via libgirepository 00:19:30 eli: most of the GNOME API has getters/setters, but not all 00:21:28 (and support for struct fields is quite helpful, as it allows to cover some non-GNOME, but relativly regular libraries as well) 00:21:30 klutometis: http://www.pastebin.ca/1286379 00:22:36 rotty: sorry, I'm losing you -- libgirepository is the api description, and GIR the abi description? 00:24:31 Hello again. I'm trying to write mergesort now. Is there any performance difference between merging lists and vectors? 00:25:15 In both cases, I would merge to a newly allocated space, not in place. 00:26:13 damonwang: that probably depends on the implementation. 00:27:00 lisppaste: url 00:27:01 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 00:27:16 ozy`: In that case, is the difference in performance between dividing a list in half and dividing a vector in half worth the cost of converting a list to a vector? 00:27:51 eli: no, GIR is an XML file, which describes the API. This get converted to a binary format, called typelib, which describes the API, along with ABI-specific details. The typelib can be accessed via libgirepository, a shared library with a C interface. pybank (Python binding for g-i) works that way (using libgirepository to access the typlib). sbank differs, in that it uses the typelib data directly, after using libgirepository only to 00:27:58 damonwang: the real cost is code that you'll write 00:28:25 `vector->list' will save you a good chunk of code. 00:28:58 baklava-: take a look at this; it parses (in a trivial sense) and evaluates: 00:29:01 klutometis pasted "Parse and evaluate toy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72211 00:29:12 i imagine that's not quite what you have in mind, somehow 00:29:23 eli: (I hope that made sense) 00:29:45 baklava-: but it still maps (+ (* 3 4) 5) => 17 00:29:57 rotty: cut off at "... using libgirepository only to " 00:31:01 rotty: in any case, I'd go with using the library, I think. 00:31:02 eli: Well, this is mostly to learn scheme, so writing code I haven't previously written is a benefit. ^_^ 00:31:14 eli: sorry (thought irssi would handle long msgs): ... pybank (Python binding for g-i) works that way (using libgirepository to access the typlib). sbank differs, in that it uses the typelib data directly, after using libgirepository only to map it into memory. 00:31:29 Although I don't intend to re-implement vector->list 00:32:18 rotty: I'm saying that because I think that parsing binary data is usually messy. 00:32:31 *eli* leaves now 00:33:16 eli: though it should be noted that sbank accesses the typelib via accessors generated by generating GIR for the C header that defines the structs/unions used in the typelib 00:33:39 wasabi____ [n=wasabi@ntoska310174.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:34:19 erm, .. via accessors obtained by using the GIR generated for the C header ... 00:34:55 baklava-: you should be able to extend that example to handle the terminal +, *, etc. manually; i resorted to APPLY as a shortcut 00:36:22 klutometis: I'm still checking the reference, not familiar with a few of the keywords 00:36:29 so parsing binary (that way) is not that messy, at least not considerably messier than binding a whole bunch of methods that are just accessors to that binary data, at least not when using these methods incurrs the overhead of going through libffi 00:36:39 baklava-: any in particular? 00:36:53 klutometis: hadn't seen values, map, or apply 00:36:56 incubot: why is there anything, rather than no thing at all? 00:36:59 That is an orthogonal issue to anything about CGI. 00:37:07 baklava-: aha; but those are the very guts of scheme 00:37:49 well, I guess that some would argue that 'values' is about the very guts... 00:38:00 incubot: god damn it: you're possessed of the cleverest replies to my most abstruse metaphysical queries 00:38:02 Ah, I was wrong to say that he had all the cans. But he does have three cans, which makes him the cleverest Flathead on the mountain. 00:38:22 rotty: indeed; maybe the functional trapping like MAP, etc. are merely the limbs 00:38:33 klutometis: yea, I just started scheme this weekend and I found out yesterday the book I had been using was broken... so I've been going through TSPL and some tutorials but mostly trying to figure out how the structure of this thing is so I can then seek out those parts of the book. 00:39:42 baklava-: listen, man; try out SICP: you won't regret it 00:39:49 everything else is Play Skool(tm) 00:39:53 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 00:39:56 klutometis: yea, I've been looking at that too 00:40:02 rudybot: eval (for ([i (in-range 10)]) (string->symbol (format "eli: I'm telling you for the ~ath time: I'm at work" i))) 00:40:17 :-( 00:40:32 baklava-: anyway; do you see how to extend the example to use your own terminals? 00:41:12 klutometis: no, I'm still trying to make sense of it :| 00:42:49 klutometis: wasn't looking at the example, I thought it used 'values' as per R5RS 00:42:54 r5rs values 00:42:54 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_572 00:42:55 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yoye9g 00:44:07 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska310174.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:49 (and support for multiple values is arguably not *that* central to scheme) 00:45:40 baklava-: btw, ignore my babbling, it would just confuse you 00:45:57 (probably) 00:47:18 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:48:09 rotty: yes, I'm sure it would (unfortunately) 00:49:03 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:49:39 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:49:43 baklava-: if you did follow the link to the R5RS spec however, you should note that this has nothing to do with the example: the use of 'values' in the example is simply referring to 'values' as an identifier to be bound to the result of applying 'map' to the arguments 'evaluate' and '(cdr expression)' 00:50:07 r5rs map 00:50:08 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_558 00:50:09 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5g3njv 00:50:19 rotty: okay 00:50:23 (the above *is* relevant, however) 00:51:00 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:52:02 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:57:35 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:05 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-230-127.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 00:59:51 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 01:04:45 rotty: yeah, sorry; i tend to redefine things like VALUES, LIST 01:06:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-226.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:09:22 r5rs case 01:09:22 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_114 01:09:23 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3qg6zj 01:10:58 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 01:18:04 r5rs round 01:18:05 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_308 01:18:06 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5dr9rz 01:18:21 *rotty* tends to use vals and lst for that reason 01:19:23 incubot: i'm occasionally siezed upon by grotesque, pear-shaped, androphobic burocratrices 01:19:26 I apologize if I've been rude. But you have to understand that 'normal' is a very subjective word, and your sense of normality has been shaped by your experience. 01:19:32 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 01:19:34 very good 01:22:00 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:23:27 -!- damonwang [n=damonwan@pool-72-88-153-123.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:43 offby1-quassel [n=quassel@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:31:13 elf: semi-pong. 01:31:23 Still at work but will probably leave for home reasonably soon ... 01:31:34 s/elf/eli/ 01:33:59 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:20 incubot: EBCDIC 01:37:22 Of course, if you have to support EBCDIC your portability problems may be worse. 01:37:46 "now you havew two problems" 01:37:55 *hve 01:37:57 crap 01:39:26 *offby1* laughs cruelly 01:39:41 gah, chicken's map differs from gambit's map 01:40:16 *offby1-quassel* laughs cruelly 01:40:28 ... albeit without the aid of Emacs' dynamic-abbrevs 01:40:34 incubot: map 01:40:49 "The map is not the territory" 01:40:56 ventonegro: you killed Kennybot! 01:40:59 too short 01:41:06 incubot: for-each 01:41:09 So, for instance, you could take a non-deterministic computation and take the positive & negative square roots of each of the values with (EXTEND (LAMBDA (X) (SPLIT (SQRT X) (- (SQRT X)))) computation). 01:49:42 dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:47 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:13 -!- ventonegro [i=alex@189-95-157-116.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["going home"] 01:53:20 nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-187.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:55:31 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 02:06:50 incubot: sounds like a job for delimited continuations 02:06:52 Are you guys going to have failure continuations? 02:09:43 incubot: could you hold this piano for me? Thanks. 02:09:45 ok thanks, i forgot it was called plists 02:11:58 incubot: it's called plists for a reason! 02:12:01 then it is not trivial anymore, with nested alists. One would have to write the equivalent of putprop and getprop. That is, plists can be implemented as nested alists. 02:12:19 incubot: you can hold a piano, but you can't hold a conversation. 02:12:21 this year I've almost been moving every three months: a piano would simply be an albatross for me. 02:13:40 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 02:13:40 *offby1-quassel* raises the Palm of Slapping threateningly 02:15:26 The whole plant, or just one of the branches? 02:25:18 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-230-127.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:37 Oh good, I suspect a lot of people here need dates. 02:30:17 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:30:39 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 02:35:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:36:16 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless41.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:59 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-98-118-51-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:41:29 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:41:49 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:42 foof: oh, good; you solved the matchmaker problem in Theta(n^k)? 02:52:11 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:17 incubot: foof 02:53:19 i think foof mentioned mz scheme has define-values or something like that which does this 02:53:43 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:54:57 incubot: it turns out that the matchmaker problem can be reduced to the clique problem, and is therefore np-complete 02:55:00 (newbies want programming to be more complex than it is; Haskell very pointedly gives them something to perceive as very complex; this turns out to be easy to comprehend. Everyone wins!) 02:55:22 underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 02:55:25 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-24-125.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:57 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:56:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:58:49 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:59:51 *jcowan* unvanishes, belatedly. 03:01:24 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:02:04 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:03:17 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:06:16 -!- nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-187.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:07:10 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:07:24 -!- anerak [n=john@173-22-166-236.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 03:11:04 nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:20:33 *offby1* ahoys, belatedly 03:20:40 eli: belated pong 03:25:12 offby1: is that sort of like lag IRL? 03:31:23 yep 03:31:26 wait. 03:31:32 isn't "IRL" Ireland? 03:35:53 incubot: mejja 03:35:56 it's supposed to give that error. 03:36:01 Hey all, does anyone know if Ikarus supports fold-casing sources? Such as through #!fold-case? 03:42:22 arcfide: Did you try #ci ? 03:42:48 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 03:44:48 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:26 foof: Um...I thought the format was #!fold-case? 03:45:31 But, yeah, maybe not... 03:45:32 Nope. 03:45:37 Um, at least, not on the REPL. 03:46:28 Oh, is that in R6RS? 03:55:36 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:55 foof: Yes, this is R6RS. 03:59:36 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.133.122] has joined #scheme 04:00:00 r6rs fold-case 04:00:12 nothing... 04:00:37 sladegen: The #!fold-case of which I speak is a recommendation in the appendix. 04:01:50 i see -app.pdf 04:02:52 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180066143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:05:47 offby1: ping 04:05:53 pong! 04:06:05 So, nearly everything is done. 04:06:06 *offby1* hops from foot to foot excitedly 04:06:11 ooh Santa eli is here! 04:06:25 It turned out to be a little heavier than expected. 04:06:32 Specifically, the problem that you had. 04:06:32 do tell 04:06:38 *offby1* nods solemnly 04:07:09 thanks for digging through that. 04:07:20 The issue was that the sandbox was running out of memory while it was created, and the code wasn't expecting that -- so the user thread died, while the other side sat there, patiently, waiting for an answer. 04:07:28 hmm 04:07:30 but ... 04:07:45 should running out of memory have caused it to raise an exception? 04:07:51 s/should/shouldn't 04:07:58 Yes, but when it was created that wasn't the case. 04:08:05 er? 04:08:14 I just didn't write the code that would also expect the sandbox to crash while its created. 04:08:16 the limits only come into effect afterwards? 04:08:19 aaaahhhhhh 04:08:21 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.133.122] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:26 In any case, that was was pretty easy to fix. 04:08:28 sounds like I done found you a bug! 04:08:34 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 04:09:11 Yes, but -- a relatively simple one. That night I spent too much time reducing the code that when it was clear that it happens in the sandbox creation I didn't even trace through there. 04:09:30 In any case, the more interesting issue is *why* it ran out of memory. 04:09:44 indeed. 04:09:47 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:49 since the creation didn't do anything interesting. 04:10:03 and I'd already created a similar one. 04:10:08 (BTW, it was also a result of another mistake where I comitted a 20mb limit for the sandbox, instead of the 30mb that I intended it to be.) 04:10:39 Right -- creation doesn't do anything special, but it revealed a basic flaw in the memory accounting. 04:10:49 *offby1* scratches head 04:11:12 So there is a custodian, which is an object that can be "blamed" for the memory being used by some values, right? 04:11:21 mm hmm 04:11:27 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:11:39 And these objects are organized in a hierarchy, right? 04:11:56 sure 04:12:27 OK, so the question is, if an object is reachable from two custodians, which one should it be "blamed" on? 04:12:47 gah. 04:12:51 The answer to that was "the lower one" (or, if several, one of the lower ones). 04:12:54 Why is it reachable from two in the first place? 04:12:55 oh. 04:13:10 Let me give you an example: 04:13:11 surely it cannot be reachable from two that are at "the same level" (whatever that means). 04:13:24 rudybot: eval (define x '()) 04:13:32 rudybot: eval (set! x (cons "blah") x) 04:13:32 eli: error: eval:1:0: set!: bad syntax (has 3 parts after keyword) in: (set! x (cons "blah") x) 04:13:39 rudybot: eval (set! x (cons "blah" x)) 04:13:40 *snicker* 04:13:40 rudybot: eval (set! x (cons "blah" x)) 04:13:41 rudybot: eval (set! x (cons "blah" x)) 04:14:10 ok, so x is a list of some "blah"s ... 04:14:10 Now, each of these evaluations happens under the custodian for that interaction, which is a sub-custodian of the sandbox's custodian, right? 04:14:17 ok 04:14:36 rudybot: eval (set! x (cons (make-string 20) x)) 04:14:41 would be a better example 04:14:51 *offby1* stares blankly 04:15:00 Anyway, while the above expression is computed, a string is allocated, then banged into `x', right? 04:15:04 sure sure 04:17:02 Anyway, just after that banging happens -- the allocated string is reachable from both the interaction (which is about to return) and from the `x' binding, which is outside, in the sandbox custodian 04:17:18 So the memory could be blamed on either one. 04:17:34 The parent (sandbox's) or the chile (the interaction's) 04:17:38 hmm 04:17:40 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066131.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:17:44 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:17:45 lemme ponder that a moment or three. 04:18:02 well, ok; keep going 04:18:29 OK, so the thing is that so far, the space would be attributed to the lower custodian -- the interaction custodian in this case. 04:18:40 This had a bunch of reasonable reasons. 04:18:40 ... which is about to vanish? 04:18:59 Yes, but that's irrelevant for now, because I could do: 04:19:10 rudybot: eval (begin (set! x (cons (make-string 20) x)) (set! x (cons (make-string 20) x))) 04:19:21 oh mah haid 04:19:32 So it would be just about to go on for a second allocation... 04:19:32 ok ok 04:19:57 Nothing complex so far -- just the fact that attributing the first string to the interactions seems like a reasonable choice. 04:20:07 indeed it does 04:20:31 But the whole story becomes different when you're dealing with other resources. 04:20:39 do go on 04:20:56 *offby1* taps the ash off his cigar 04:21:07 For example, the previous chunks of data in `x' are also reachable from the interaction's custodian -- and since it's lower, it gets blamed for it. 04:21:56 In other words, the memory limit for the interaction should take into consideration all of the sandbox's values too. 04:22:12 OK? 04:22:18 hole on 04:22:46 I think I don't understand what "the interaction" is here 04:23:09 Say that the sandbox custodian is C1, and the interaction custodian is C2. 04:23:28 C1 is in charge of the sandbox -- kill it, and it all just vanishes. 04:23:32 well, what is "the interaction custodian"? A separate custodian for one particular call to the sandbox evaluator? 04:24:02 Yes, each interaction has its own custodian (since there is a memory limit for each interaction). 04:24:10 oh sure. 04:24:11 ok. 04:24:13 (duh.) 04:24:26 ok, I think I'm back on the train. 04:24:49 OK, now -- C2 was created as a custodian that is subordinate to C1. 04:24:53 mm hm 04:25:08 ah, and surely anything charged to C2 must _also_ be charged to C1 04:25:09 It's lower, so everything in C1 that it can access is attributed to it. 04:26:08 The bottom line is: if it's reachable from both C1 and C2 (like those memory blocks above), then it will be charged to C2. 04:26:23 seems reasonable 04:26:31 And the important point is: this happens even when C2 is not where it got allocated, just when it's reachable there. 04:27:02 And this is the main point here, which will need just a little more explaining: 04:27:30 C1 is, itself, a child of some custodian, say C0 (which might be the mzscheme's process's toplevel custodian). 04:27:36 I think I'm dimly starting to see 04:27:47 Now, do you remember your `git-version' thing? 04:27:51 yeah 04:27:55 started a subprocess 04:28:00 I thought I exonerated that, though 04:28:43 Starting a subprocess costs some memory, and since the subprocess is (in some way) reachable inside the sandbox, then the sandbox gets to be responsible for that memory too. 04:29:14 hole on thar, pard. 04:29:26 How is the "git-version" process reachable from the sandbox? 04:29:37 its _output_ is intended to be accessible ... 04:29:59 I guess that's the (in some way) that you mentioned. 04:30:13 Yes, yes -- there is no leaking of information here -- it's the fact that the *binding* itself is reachable from the code that implements the sandbox. 04:30:55 con tin you 04:32:09 The result of this, is that a "reasonable memory limit" for the sandbox (the C1 custodian) should take into consideration all kinds of stuff that the parent (C0, the irc client in your case, or a ton of gui stuff in drscheme's case) uses and is available inside the C1 custodian. 04:32:19 hmm 04:32:32 but 04:32:48 running out of memory wasn't the mystery; the mystery (to me anyway) was the hanging. 04:33:02 *offby1* puts some leftovers in the oven 04:33:22 Yes, but that was the result of running out of memory in a way that the sandbox initialization code didn't expect. 04:34:30 Hello? Hello? Is thing on? 04:34:49 no 04:34:49 *eli* taps on the irc microphone 04:35:11 answer my question 04:35:21 ok 04:41:01 sorry, wife is home! She takes precedence -- I hope you understand 04:41:24 I thought we had something special offby1 04:42:25 offby1: ok, ping me when you can 04:43:27 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 04:48:48 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:53:12 it's bizarre being away from home; i feel like a bachelor again 04:53:49 When that happens to me I just feel, well, rather empty. 04:54:22 jcowan: indeed; dasein is beisammensein, as they say. 04:54:41 *jcowan* nods. 04:55:05 *klutometis* finds things to hungrily fill the home-void. 04:55:39 Doesn't work for me; I just get increasingly numb about the periphery until I'm back home. 04:56:37 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.206] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:56:51 jcowan: good man; that's what I call piety. 04:57:27 It's what I call a pity. 04:58:32 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:58:54 But there it is; I'm a Hardwired Homebody. 04:59:08 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:59:42 jcowan: was there a hobbit in your pedigree? 05:00:27 underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:01:49 I doubt it. 05:04:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:27 -!- mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:05:57 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:56 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 05:10:24 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176209118.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:11:24 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176204147.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:14:02 krat3r [n=krat@81.193.39.43] has joined #scheme 05:15:55 klutometis: I don't think Homo floriensis has any living descendants 05:16:31 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:18:02 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 05:22:11 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@chld.ru] has joined #scheme 05:22:16 -!- underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:22:33 underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:25:22 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:25:32 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 05:29:10 saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 05:33:48 Perhaps instead there is a Boggie in the woodpile. 05:34:56 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:21 eli: well, the good news is: I'm back. The bad news is: I had a martini with dinner. 05:35:53 *offby1* sticks a pin in jcowan's periphery 05:37:12 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:27 *jcowan* is at home, and yells ow as a result 05:38:53 As always, timing is key. 05:38:54 Unless, of course, the pin was in my foot, in which case I yell "OWEEECH!" and rapidly retreat from the painful burning sensation. 05:38:57 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:41:05 damn 05:41:06 sorry 05:44:19 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has left #scheme 05:45:20 Diabetic neuropathy is a bitch. I basically have pins'n'needles sensation all the time. *Real* pins and needles = unbearable pain. 05:46:54 :-( 05:49:02 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 05:50:23 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-195-148.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:51:53 Bogus, man. I am sorry. 05:52:46 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:55:51 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:18 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 05:58:54 avoid sugary soda or your insulin gland will reenact the Hairball episode in Ren and Stimpy. xp 06:00:52 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 06:03:10 synx: is avoidance sufficient? it seems like a positive disciplining of the body is co-requisite 06:03:23 -!- underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:26 underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:03:58 man lookit all the big wurdz 06:04:15 offby1: hey, man; just relocated to palo alto 06:05:34 I've heard that sugary soda is the biggest culprit. Replacement is important too though. 06:05:49 Debolaz2 [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 06:09:01 synx: what are your thoughts on corn syrup? 06:10:31 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:12:01 cane sugar is produced with slave labor. corn syrup is just under-priced. 06:13:57 .oO("Palo Alto == expensive") 06:14:41 -!- krat3r [n=krat@81.193.39.43] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:14:57 damonwang [n=damonwan@pool-72-88-153-123.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:16:56 offby1: yeah; it's about as bad as cambridge 06:17:08 but the locals are full of silicon piss-and-vinegar 06:17:33 *offby1* vainly tries to unmix the metaphor 06:17:46 heh 06:18:46 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:19:15 synx: some studies claim that high-fructose corn syrup invokes a pathological insulin response 06:19:45 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:20:13 I prefer to avoid places full of brilliant computer scientists. It's like jumping into a pack of starving crazed rabid weasels. 06:21:01 *offby1* has never actually jumped into a pack of starving crazed rabid weasels. 06:21:20 klutometis: I've heard that when blood sugar increases, the body releases insulin, which triggers excretion of that sugar. Any calories high on the glycemic index can overload your insulin gland. 06:21:30 offby1: It's funner than it sounds. <3 06:21:46 foof [n=user@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:22:14 not just corn syrup. 06:22:27 synx: heh; that's a fantastic metaphor 06:22:44 -!- underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:22:47 underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:27:31 Palo Alto looks like a Jekyll Island By The Bay 06:27:45 place for rich peoples to hang out 06:27:58 well, that and a college town 06:29:46 -!- foof [n=user@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:50 foof [n=user@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:30:19 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 06:31:29 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:39 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 06:32:08 Adamant: yeah, the per-capita golf- and tennis-court-acreage seems to be unnaturally high 06:32:35 and san jose airport is populated by post-starbucks coffee snobs 06:34:17 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 06:34:42 yeah 06:34:52 -!- underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:59 there were definitely a lot of tennis-type places in the Valley when I was there 06:35:08 underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:35:10 krat3r [n=krat@81.193.39.43] has joined #scheme 06:35:20 tennis is a good lawn ruined and golf is a good walk spoiled 06:37:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:41:32 Adamant: heh; and much to my dismay, they don't even stock the court-side coolers with martini 06:41:39 "insulin gland"? 06:42:05 Tennis doesn't need a lot of space, is fun, and is excellent exercise. 06:42:16 Golf is pointless, I agree. 06:42:37 foof: maybe; i logged about 20 hours last week with the ball machine; broke a sweat 06:42:38 clean and presses need less space, are also fun, and are much better exercises 06:42:42 Caddying is kind of fun, however, if you're with somebody who digs golf but isn't obsessive. 06:42:44 it's even better as a social game, i heard 06:43:17 who wants to play a game with golfers and tennis players? 06:43:24 present company excluded, of course 06:43:41 offby1: ping 06:43:42 Adamant: tore my hammy last year on a clean and jerk; gotta remind myself to stretch before those bad boys 06:43:46 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:43:49 Part of the charm of caddying is role-playing. "I believe this woud call for a nine iron, sir." 06:44:19 klutometis: I have pretty good flexibility from a cold start for whatever reason 06:44:29 interesting; maybe you're part android 06:44:33 nah 06:44:41 it's not superhuman flexibility 06:44:41 You're just young. Damn you. 06:45:17 "Clean and presses?" 06:45:17 I never get even remotely close to the people who can do really accomplished things 06:45:19 no matter how seriously I stretch 06:45:29 foof: he's really into laundry. 06:45:34 foof: (formerly) Olympic weightlifting 06:46:00 they had to take the C&P out because the cheating on the lift was going to kill someone sooner or later 06:46:05 Adamant: You need to complement that with aerobic exercises. 06:46:12 foof: very true 06:46:19 and anerobic 06:46:30 Daemmerung: that's what they said about my wife before they cut her birthing ligaments 06:46:48 eli: pong ... but ... 06:46:52 bedtime :-| 06:46:54 I prefer cycling, but swimming and tennis are good too. 06:46:58 yeah 06:47:08 there's something to be said for lifestyle sports 06:47:18 *klutometis* misses the rugby pitch 06:47:20 offby1: ok 06:47:27 klutometis: gaaaah... reproduction is scary. 06:47:35 eli: my tests pass, for what it's worth. 06:47:36 offby1: I might send out that email tonight, if I survive. 06:47:55 Daemmerung: I'm pretty sure you only have to do the easy part 06:48:01 I might upgrade scheme and restart the bot, if I stay awake. 06:48:07 http://bulk.fefe.de/scalability/ 06:48:27 Adamant: some of my best friends are wimmins. 06:48:34 Daemmerung: although your hand might be in a cast for a few months after birth 06:48:47 can you put a hand in a cast? 06:48:51 I don't know 06:49:28 Daemmerung: sure, but it's not like kidney stones where you look and reflexively say "ow" in both genders 06:49:50 you just support them the best you can 06:50:12 -!- underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:50:13 Daemmerung: yeah; dogs and cats, however shit-producing, are much safer 06:50:22 O-o 06:50:24 klutometis: unless you breed them 06:50:28 Adamant: heh 06:50:29 underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:50:51 offby1: I still need to get another part done -- something to control whether interactions can leave threads behind them or not. 06:51:36 biology is icky. Let's go mechanizing. 06:52:00 ah 06:52:59 offby1: And the default will be to allow threads to be created only in the initial code -- the (begin ...) that you pass to `make-evaluator'. 06:53:17 So you'd be fine there with no additional tweaking. 06:55:55 you guys are really trying to simulate a chroot with segregated processes, aren't you? 06:56:18 don't lookit _me_ 07:01:28 -!- underspecified [n=eric@p2011-ipbf1104osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [] 07:03:19 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 07:04:39 klutometis: not trying to; implementing one. 07:07:34 eli: indeed; by why settle for a simulacrum, when you can have the real thing? 07:08:11 Just tell me when you have it working in a single process, and on Windows too... 07:08:51 aye, that's the rub; but what's wrong with multiple processes? google used the same model for chrome 07:08:54 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 07:09:15 it's a useful built-in sandboxing method 07:09:16 What about DrScheme -- or any good, high-level IDE? 07:09:34 What about managing resources? 07:09:40 incubot: (define a 1) 07:09:40 # 07:09:46 incubot: (+ a 2) 07:09:46 Error: unbound variable: a 07:09:49 ? 07:09:54 incubot: (define a 1) (+ a 2) 07:09:55 3 07:09:59 since the process is the quantum of resource ownership, at least on those OSen that I know 07:10:14 ulimit, of course; but that's unix 07:10:25 klutometis: I know; but that was the point. 07:10:32 part of it, at least 07:10:42 right; windows support requires acrobatics beyond me 07:11:08 and do you really want previous defines contaminating the next invocation of the REPL? 07:11:12 It's not beyond you if the Scheme subsumes it! 07:11:13 it's an open question, i think 07:11:18 Daemmerung: good point 07:11:26 klutometis: huh? 07:12:11 eli: the example where definitions carry-over to subsequent invocations of the bot 07:12:16 is it desirable? debatable 07:12:51 Makes it easier to use the bot interactively in IRC, methinks. 07:12:55 I don't know what's your personal preference regarding interactions with a repl, but I kind of like my programs to not be a single line. 07:13:09 eli: is irc the place for more than one-liners? 07:13:29 But the real point goes way beyond IRC -- that's just one use of a sandbox that you see here. 07:13:38 also, what if you redefine, say, LIST or VALUES in previous invocations? confusing, i think 07:13:43 Like I said -- something like drscheme is another use. 07:13:43 eli: that's fair 07:14:22 Well, each sandbox is completely independent of the others, so redefinitions damage only one place. 07:14:28 rudybot: (define (list . x) 'i-see-what-you-did-there) 07:14:34 rudybot: (list 1 2 3) 07:14:54 You need to tell it to eval. 07:14:59 whoops 07:14:59 rudybot: eval (list 'klutometis 'forgot 'to 'say 'eval) 07:15:07 Daemmerung: error: with-limit: out of time 07:15:07 rudybot: eval (define (list . x) 'i-see-what-you-did-there) 07:15:15 rudybot: eval (list 1 2 3) 07:15:16 klutometis: ; Value: i-see-what-you-did-there 07:15:22 rudybot: eval (list 1 2 3) 07:15:23 eli: ; Value: (1 2 3) 07:15:29 ThereYouGo. 07:15:41 virtuosic 07:15:47 bound ny user? 07:15:53 NotSureHowIFunkedThatUpButWhatevar. 07:16:03 Daemmerung: heh 07:16:03 by rather 07:16:06 But that's also just one tiny corner of the story. 07:17:29 pyrotechnics; and an indeterminacy which is apt to confuse 07:17:46 pchrist|1niv [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #scheme 07:17:47 what, LIST means something other for noob x vs. noob y? 07:18:14 klutometis: See also the "Revenge of the Son of the Lisp Machine" paper. 07:21:33 eli: "In MrEd, separate address spaces are unnecessary for protection between programs, due to the safety properties of the programming language." 07:21:41 statements like that make me cringe, for some reason 07:22:16 i realize they want to be a one-stop-shop; but to implement a faux-OS on top of a real OS? 07:22:34 I certainly don't know what your cringe reasons are. 07:23:05 why duplicate the kernel poorly? 07:23:23 Why are you assuming that it does so poorly? 07:23:38 because offby1's bot doesn't work 07:23:47 rudybot: uptime 07:23:47 eli: I've been up for four weeks; this tcp/ip connection has been up for four weeks 07:24:01 yes; but it's been plagued with bizarre heisenbugs 07:24:01 Looks fine to me. 07:24:36 No, there was just one bug that was visible here, and it was a problem in his own code. 07:27:16 -!- damonwang [n=damonwan@pool-72-88-153-123.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:28:35 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:27 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:29:28 eli: good, then; let rudybot stand as a testament to the multiplication of entities 07:30:27 klutometis: I don't know what you mean. 07:32:02 Occam's shaving implement, one assumes. 07:32:39 [That doesn't help me decipher what klutometis was trying to say.] 07:34:49 (I will hazard that he's claiming that rudybot would be much simpler if it abandoned portability. It is always tricky to decipher such Delphic utterances.) 07:36:47 (Adding an assumption that the assumed meaning refers to Windows -- there is an array of problems that are not there with rudybot, and there is an array of functionalities that are unavailable with a chroot subprocess.) 07:38:49 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-22-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 07:39:39 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:29 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #scheme 07:55:13 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-13-174.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:55 cracki [n=cracki@45-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 07:56:27 -!- XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:46 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0556B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:19:02 klutometis: language-based security is a pretty promising research field and has been used for Real Systems since the 60's, like some of the Burroughs machines 08:20:11 SweetwaterDixon [n=user@124-197-41-171.callplus.net.nz] has joined #scheme 08:23:48 -!- heat [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has quit ["leaving"] 08:24:26 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-225.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:25:59 heat [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has joined #scheme 08:29:46 -!- heat [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has quit [Client Quit] 08:31:40 heat [i=dima@66.160.171.42] has joined #scheme 08:37:47 olgen [n=jacobm@2005ds3-by.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 08:39:08 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0556B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:39 Adamant: interesting; reminds me indirectly of D and contract programming: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/dbc.html 08:46:03 they got that from Eiffel 08:46:27 IIRC Eiffel's contracts were inspired by Hoare's work, but don't quite provide the same guarantees 08:46:36 -!- hemulen 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(Connection timed out)] 09:17:13 -!- valiza1 [n=haroldo@r190-133-136-103.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:18:52 Ashy [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #scheme 09:20:01 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 09:20:12 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:24:32 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:25:30 -!- evoli [n=yuhsin@220-135-33-149.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:16 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-093-054.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:27:50 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 09:32:40 -!- Guest47776 [n=mike@infedyn086.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:35:50 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:40:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:41:03 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:42:29 Eiffel was an interesting language. well-designed OO for the people who like that sort of thing. 09:42:31 that thing being OO 09:44:03 XTL [i=t6haha00@rhea.oamk.fi] has joined #scheme 09:47:21 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-195-148.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:50:46 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 09:52:30 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A04F2.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:45 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 10:00:55 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-195-148.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:47 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-112-104.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 10:04:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:05:06 -!- pchrist|1niv [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has 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[n=benny@i577A1B32.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 12:28:16 Wow... this is pointless: http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~hiraisi/sc/index-e.html 12:29:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:31 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 12:30:42 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:32:17 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:35:12 foof, pointless? It lets you have macros -- real macros. 12:35:18 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@ntoska310174.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:35:31 replor__ [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:42:58 *leppie* hides his feet :) 12:43:20 *Riastradh* blinks. 12:43:47 -!- foof [n=user@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:31 -!- wasabi____ [n=wasabi@ntoska310174.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:07 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:50:00 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 12:52:33 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:55:01 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:01 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@59.172.140.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:09:54 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 13:14:57 vasa [n=vasa@mm-41-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 13:15:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:58 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 13:17:20 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 13:18:10 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@58.49.244.10] has joined #scheme 13:19:37 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-41-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:49 vasa [n=vasa@mm-41-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 13:21:29 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:25:30 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #scheme 13:27:59 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 13:29:25 digego [n=andrew@123.100.135.98] has joined #scheme 13:31:59 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B32.versanet.de] has left #scheme 13:36:59 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@2005ds3-by.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 13:38:37 TheLittlePrince [n=TheLittl@222.109.194.11] has joined #scheme 13:38:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 13:44:58 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:45:10 -!- r2q2 is now known as thecryingman 13:45:25 -!- thecryingman is now known as jherman 13:46:09 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:49:13 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 13:51:27 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 13:57:15 -!- reified [n=PersonX@z76.124-45-124.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:55 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:58:45 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 14:01:42 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:02:17 -!- replor__ [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:04:40 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 14:12:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:12:34 benny [n=benny@i577A1B32.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 14:16:15 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 14:16:37 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:27:42 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 14:35:44 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-41-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:36 -!- digego [n=andrew@123.100.135.98] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51:42 vasa [n=vasa@mm-108-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 14:52:20 mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:40 george [n=george@189.107.155.64] has joined #scheme 14:54:23 http://gist.github.com/36618 14:54:35 why the second function is not running ? 14:56:11 george: Another way you can do that is the binominal theorem. 14:56:16 -!- jherman is now known as r2q2 14:56:51 Because `Row-sum-P' doesn't return what you think it returns. 14:57:37 In fact, it returns nothing at all. 14:58:33 returns nothing vs doesn't returt 15:00:08 (Check the scope of the initial call to P-iter, george.) 15:00:26 how should i make an function that does p( 1 y) + p(2 y) + p(3 y) ...p(n y) until n =y ? 15:00:48 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-16-18.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:15 oh now i discovered the error 15:05:25 thanks ... should be this way ... 15:06:17 http://gist.github.com/36625 15:08:57 nicholasw_ [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 15:11:01 -!- krat3r [n=krat@81.193.39.43] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:15:25 -!- nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:15:53 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 15:16:36 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/99e2693293b3c945/e54399b0a7dd8ec1?show_docid=e54399b0a7dd8ec1 15:16:36 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5e58he 15:17:06 Wow, no wonder TCL is dead... look at the prose their leaders use! 15:17:12 That would scare anybody away. 15:17:32 george: also, check your use of `cond' of P. Sorry for the first cryptic note. Need coffee. 15:20:06 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 15:20:17 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #scheme 15:31:14 My impression of TCL is that it can quite well die on its own merit 15:32:59 Tcl is my alltime favourite language. 15:33:06 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:36:08 Well, it beats Python. 15:44:59 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-112-104.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:38 -!- aquanaut` [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:01 -!- TheLittlePrince [n=TheLittl@222.109.194.11] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:50 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #scheme 16:00:05 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:08:46 notyouravgjoel [n=jmccrack@student312-1.psc.edu] has joined #scheme 16:10:44 using plt scheme, if a library has defined a function, is there a way to redefine it besides not importing it? 16:11:15 just (define ...) it 16:11:55 module: identifier is already imported... 16:12:42 oh 16:13:15 then i guess you need some nifty require statements that excludes the identifier 16:13:40 yeah, figured =( 16:14:02 thankss 16:17:18 (require (except-in "some-module.ss" unwanted)) 16:18:13 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 16:19:05 -!- rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:47 Mr Rudybot is getting a haircut 16:21:36 -!- george [n=george@189.107.155.64] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:48 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 16:22:22 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:22:46 rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 16:23:19 rudybot: uptime 16:23:19 offby1: I've been up for thirty-six seconds; this tcp/ip connection has been up for thirty-six seconds 16:23:33 rudybot: eval (getenv "PATH") 16:23:34 offby1: error: ain't no function by that name here!! 16:24:26 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:24:31 rudybot: eval (banner) 16:24:31 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.3.6 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 16:37:12 Ooh, cutting-edge. 16:37:37 is the `3m' GC conservative? 16:37:47 No, it's generational. 16:38:04 Daemmerung: thanks 16:38:26 If you want the old paleoconservative collector, try the `CGC' variant. 16:39:19 nah, I'm just curious :) 16:42:11 I hear it's "precise", although I'm not sure what that means. 16:44:10 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 16:46:00 I think that means that every inaccessible object will be, sooner or later, collected, if you keep using more and more memory 16:47:45 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:48:27 minion: chant 16:48:28 MORE AND MORE 16:50:17 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:50:41 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:52:49 offby1: conservative collectors only collect what they are damn sure is garbage, by inspecting pointers in the stack, heap etc. 16:53:25 offby1: precise collectors know exactly were all non-immediate objects are, because they are kept in a data structure by the runtime 16:54:38 yeah, I figured it was something like that 16:54:47 offby1: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ 16:56:45 -!- bpt_ is now known as bpt 17:01:40 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-108-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 17:02:16 wow, HP still exists? 17:03:52 ventonegro: yeah, I'd seen that page 17:04:18 offby1: ok :) 17:06:44 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:07:09 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:13:25 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:14:58 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:18:17 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless111.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:21:43 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 17:23:07 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foo"] 17:25:32 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 17:38:18 olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 17:39:47 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:43:46 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:00 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:46 Cheery [n=cheery@a91-155-219-124.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 17:44:49 hi 17:44:49 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 17:45:01 Cheery: hey. 17:45:07 z0d: Hey general z0d. 17:45:23 scheme had generic functions? or was it clisp? 17:45:33 Cheery: What is a generic function? 17:45:39 multimethod 17:45:43 Hi r2q2 17:45:48 Cheery: Example? 17:46:09 Cheery, first, please be carful to distinguish Common Lisp, the ANSI standard programming language, from CLISP, an implementation of Common Lisp by Bruno Haible. 17:46:13 Cheery: Scheme with TinyClos has it too 17:46:14 Cheery: Is that from Object orientation? Because if it is you most often have to layer an object system on top of scheme to do that. 17:46:27 Cheery, Scheme does not have built-in generic functions; Common Lisp does. 17:46:32 And don't confuse that with CLIPS. 17:46:44 Cheery: Which isn't that hard to do. Go on community.schemewiki.org and look up object systems. 17:46:57 CLIPS is a Common Lisp smooching system, about which I know very little. 17:47:05 Riastradh: ok, so it'd be perhaps better to ask this question on clisp, but anyway. 17:47:18 Cheery, are you sure you want to ask about a single implementation of Common Lisp? 17:47:25 CLIPS = C Language Integrated Production System, and has nothing to do with CL. 17:47:36 Common LISP 17:47:41 oops 17:48:28 I ponder about generic functions and namespaces actually 17:48:46 and it's implementation related what I wonder. 17:49:10 Huh? 17:49:13 Please make sense. 17:49:14 Also don't confuse it with SCILP, a SCM-hub Certified International Logistics Professional. 17:50:09 Riastradh: no, this makes perfect sense. It's implementation related what I wonder, too. 17:50:34 (Don't forget PSILC, a portable SILC implementation! Or PLISC, the Programming Language of the Internet Systems Consortium. Or...) 17:50:36 say you contain libraries into DLLs, then link a program against two libraries that have generic functions you'd like to merge. 17:50:45 (How many other plausible expansions of anagrams can we think of?) 17:51:34 Riastradh: CLIPS isn't connected with Common Lisp. 17:51:38 Riastradh: that's true. 17:51:43 Cheery, `merge'? This is generally not a good idea. Either each library will create its own generic function, or it will add methods to an existing generic function. 17:51:46 Riastradh: wip/clips. 17:52:20 ASau, yes, I was making up answers whose absurdity I thought would clarify their humorous intent! 17:52:32 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 17:52:37 (or iLSPC, a confused Apple offering from the dark Scully years) 17:52:56 if you can't merge them properly, how do you write programs so that you don't need to ever merge generic functions? 17:53:39 implement generic dispatch 17:53:49 but you have to call it something else (that's the tricky bit) 17:53:51 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 17:54:10 Cheery, where does the generic function come from? What if the two libraries disagree about the definition of the generic function? Either there should be a common source (a third library, perhaps, that both depend on), and the two libraries should just be adding methods to a common generic function when the libraries are initialized, or the generic functions should be independent. 17:54:20 but I don't think there's any general simplification which would elimination generic functions from a program 17:55:07 *r2q2* is happy he got into UIC. 17:55:55 Riastradh: generic functions should be independent I think. They do not need to agree into same definition of the generic function. 17:56:10 In library A I define 17:56:40 (defgeneric fnord (a b c d) (:documentation "This makes a network connection and interacts elaborately with components named A, B, C, and D.")) 17:56:43 In library B I define 17:56:53 (defgeneric fnord (x) (:documentation "This returns the FNORD field of an X.")) 17:57:57 so, I'm at section 2.3 in sicp, and I have yet to have any exposure to macros. Is SICP a good place to actually learn scheme, or would it be better to start someplace else? 17:58:24 SICP isn't really intended to teach Scheme per se; it's intended to teach programming 17:58:29 notyouravgjoel: just write scheme programs 17:58:32 so if it's macros you want, indeed, look elsewhere 17:58:42 maybe HTDP mentions them 17:58:48 does it get into it eventually? 17:58:55 SICP mentions macros only briefly in passing. 17:59:43 ehhh, okay. That's sad 18:00:04 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:27 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:27 argh, I think I now know how to do such 'merging' I were speaking of. 18:01:09 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:15 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 18:01:49 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:03:01 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:03:28 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:05:20 so, wrt SICP, is it actually worth it? I'm finding it entertaining, but fairly time consuming for various reasons... but not especially instructive. Suggestions? 18:05:30 -!- attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:06:04 Not especially instructive? 18:06:14 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:24 notyouravgjoel: SICP is good. If it is "worth it" is a subjective thing; I'm not sure what your situation is. 18:06:27 IE, I'm not learning very much from it 18:06:38 How far are you? 18:06:50 just started 2.3 18:07:03 (just finished with all the picture manipulation stuff) 18:07:16 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 18:07:59 It gets more interesting later. If you already know the material, then obviously don't do it. 18:08:14 If you don't, then do it. Not sure what else to say. 18:08:31 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:32 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:08:42 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:00 fair enough; I just wanted some reassurance that I'm not wasting time 18:10:17 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:10:38 There's one thing I've been wondering about generic functions and namespaces before, and I'm not sure I got the answer. 18:11:21 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.38.45] has joined #scheme 18:12:08 it's sort of function's problem as well, sort of. 18:12:52 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 18:13:39 if you have methods in objects, you can just do module.Object() to get everything 18:14:17 methods the object has, contain usually most what you need. 18:14:26 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-22-138.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:42 with generic functions, you must pick up the specific function always from the namespace 18:16:45 How do you avoid this? 18:24:10 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-3-173.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 18:27:24 *rotty* thinks it is exact 18:27:45 ^^^^ ignore this 18:28:56 Cheery: I think CLOS-like systems usually have introspection capabilities to find methods specialized for a certain class 18:29:36 (however, this is probably not something you'd use in run-of-the-mill code) 18:30:11 it might make sense in a unit-testing framework, for example 18:39:20 Cheery, you need to be more specific. Begin by defining `namespace' in a way that connects your intellectual conundrum with a real, observable problem. 18:40:25 aneqrs [n=andreas@c83-253-104-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:40:29 Riastradh: namespace definition in this context: module's inner scope, library's scope. 18:40:46 That's no good. Now you have two more terms to define, `module' and `library'. 18:42:23 module (or library): a set of named objects, enclosed in a scope 18:42:37 Furthermore, you also have to specify the relation between namespaces/modules/libraries and generic functions. 18:42:42 No, no, no, you're going in the wrong direction. 18:43:18 Talk about Common Lisp, or about MIT Scheme (with SOS), or about PLT Scheme (with Swindle), or about some specific system that involves both generic functions and some notion of namespaces. 18:43:55 Then identify a specific problem that you don't know how to solve. 18:44:25 And then perhaps we shall have a language with which we can discuss how to solve the problem. 18:44:39 But I'm not thinking about common lisp or MIT scheme, I'm thinking about a custom language implementation that implements both modules and generic functions. 18:44:42 but your in right 18:45:04 You'll have to be a lot more concrete, then, which is why I suggest naming an existing system. 18:46:37 if you think python with generic function implementation, then you have pretty much the orientation I have. 18:50:13 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:20 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@chld.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:03:08 -!- Cheery [n=cheery@a91-155-219-124.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:20:04 python has lambda 19:20:08 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 19:22:18 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-089-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:47 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 19:33:10 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-65.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 19:45:35 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:25 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:58 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 19:47:38 koning_r1bot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 19:50:45 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:59 -!- karsten_ [n=karsten@82.135.98.205] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:54:17 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 20:01:27 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:05:20 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 20:15:28 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055CF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:15:59 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit ["leaving"] 20:20:36 -!- kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:21:33 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:23:53 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["leaving"] 20:24:19 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 20:26:47 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 20:29:06 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.139] has joined #scheme 20:32:59 synx: i was about to say, "not after python 3000;" but i stand corrected: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3099/ 20:34:34 karsten_ [n=karsten@1.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #scheme 20:36:06 is van rossum essentially denouncing macros here? http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2006-April/000286.html 20:36:32 python sucks 20:36:34 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:36:45 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 20:39:27 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 20:39:29 lim_{n -> inf} rnrs = python (since r6rs, that is) 20:40:29 ;( 20:40:57 I invent a language called SCH5ME it's R5RS + module system 20:41:06 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 20:41:10 isn't that err5rs? 20:41:19 ok I'll call it 5CHEME 20:41:42 I thought err5rs was kinda R6y 20:42:00 can't remember why but I have something against, probably irrational 20:42:25 vixey: maybe you're right: http://scheme-punks.cyber-rush.org/wiki/index.php?title=ERR5RS:Charter 20:42:34 I'm just read that atm 20:42:43 althought i thought they had at first confined their r6rs borrowings to the module system 20:42:43 to remind myself 20:44:03 hey 20:44:10 can I get R1RS? 20:44:35 Haha that's one heck of a PEP. python developers are so sarcastic. 20:44:53 are the old R_RSs around? 20:45:07 vixey, yes, but it's usually called the `RRS'. 20:45:29 synx: must be the google smart-ass indoctrination 20:46:14 google indoctrinates python developers? o.O 20:46:20 I cgan't find it 20:47:11 vixey, the `RS' is the original 1975 lambda paper; the `RRS' was published a couple of years later, as another of the original lambda papers; then the `RRRS' was published in 1983 or so by a group of authors, and the `R^3RS' in 1988ish by the same group, and the R4RS in 1991. 20:47:18 Try writing out the words. 20:47:36 Riastradh I did that I only get planning permission documents 20:48:00 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 20:48:02 http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/Scheme.html 20:48:09 Gosh, when I search Google for `The Revised Report on Scheme', the first hit I get is the right one. 20:48:21 you're making me jelous 20:48:54 cool abelson and sussman are in R3RS 20:51:55 why do they present syntax like: 20:51:56 essential syntax: lambda 20:51:59 in R3RS 20:52:00 instead of 20:52:05 essential syntax: (lambda ) ? 20:53:10 kniu [n=kniu@pool-71-107-51-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:53:46 Google must be right. http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html 20:55:44 so if that's true then some rich guys actually own a god. 20:56:55 GOOG is publicly traded, so you too can own your own bit-o-God. 20:58:49 Whew, Python is like a language that insists on being a good example for my course... "... multi-line arguments to function calls [...are...] just plain ugly." 20:58:51 nan8 [n=user@dslb-092-074-001-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:53 -!- valiza2 [n=haroldo@r190-133-133-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:59:28 Daemmerung: An infintesimal piece of an infinite quantity can approach a finite number. 20:59:47 valiza1 [n=haroldo@r190-133-128-238.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 21:00:00 synx, huh....... 21:00:03 *synx* likes multi-line arguments to function calls... 21:00:14 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless111.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:01:24 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 21:01:25 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 21:01:37 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:42 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:47 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 21:02:05 *synx* also likes being able to change syntax >.< 21:15:09 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless111.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:18:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 21:20:44 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:36 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 21:22:26 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:23:17 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 21:24:07 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.139] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:24:18 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has left #scheme 21:25:44 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:26:27 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 21:29:11 -!- ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Client Quit] 21:34:41 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.38.45] has quit ["Wow! What a great client! Bersirc 2.2 [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]"] 21:37:44 -!- nan8 [n=user@dslb-092-074-001-004.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:43:08 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:29 eli: would like me to post the three messages of mine you might have missed yesterday? 21:45:58 rotty: I don't remember, did you have any question for me? 21:47:25 no, you were just asking about gobject-introspection and sbank, and ended with "but I would use the library since binary parsing is messy" (paraphrased), and I had a reply to that you maybe missed 21:48:27 eli: or of course, you could at your convinience use https://rottyforge.yi.org/irclogs/freenode/%23scheme/2008-12-16/ (at 01:33) (sorry, no anchors for time yet) 21:49:22 and you can s/https/http/ 21:49:58 I use the tunes thing (through a script that can send me alerts)... 21:50:26 In any case, whatever you do sounds like you have good reasons. 21:51:01 I was trying to convey how I'd approach the problem, but especially in this case where you were spitting buzzwords at a very high rate, I wouldn't trust my opinion much... 21:52:08 yeah, g-i comes with its own slew of buzzwords :-) 21:53:37 [Too much for me to handle, unless I actually become interested...] 21:54:34 -!- karsten_ [n=karsten@1.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:58:22 well, you might become interested, if I get the GTK+ demo running on MzScheme, would you? 22:00:14 I think a GTK+ binding running on two implementations using nearly the same set of code and providing exactly the same API would be a premiere 22:01:19 synx: there's an indirect indoctrination through the BDFL 22:01:36 (actually the differing code should be confined to the (spells foreign) module, FWIW) 22:02:04 *rotty* goes rehearsing the mzscheme FFI 22:02:07 rotty: possibly. GTK doesn't have that much appeal IMO. 22:02:40 eli: what widget set do you prefer? 22:02:46 That is, not much appeal to me to hack on or to use... 22:03:01 I prefer text... 22:03:51 or dipswitches, mmm :) 22:03:58 *rotty* mostly lives in emacs, but for some tasks, GUIs are nice 22:04:20 GTK's view/store model is very intriguing. 22:05:20 rotty: right -- and for those tasks, it didn't take me long to realize that the advantage of cross-platform gui is lightyears more important than getting the recent whatever features gtk has... (IOW, functionality over candy.) 22:05:25 It has an icon view that exposes a list style interface, yet displays the entries as a grid of thumbnails, with support for rubber band selection. 22:06:00 A neat surgical separation between the storage of the thumbnail entries, and the user interface for selecting and activating tehm. 22:09:12 um, GTK is a cross platform GUI...? 22:10:03 I like it better than wx at least. 22:12:08 eli: well, you *can* run GTK+ apps on Windows and MacOS X 22:12:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-34.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 22:12:52 why doesn't mzscheme's r6rs:error show the irritants of the error? 22:15:31 (I also couldn't get errortrace to work with R6RS code the last time I tried) 22:15:32 rotty: Sure you can, but on windows even gimp feels very clunky -- they gui is slow, and un-windows-like (again, looks nice enough, but definitely not a common windows application). 22:15:49 rotty: that may work on windows, but most mac users will not use apps that run in X11 22:15:53 [I have no idea about r6rs errors.] 22:16:43 rotty: not sure what the scheme community in general thinks of X11 on OS X though 22:17:40 http://developer.imendio.com/projects/gtk-macosx/ -- dunno about status, since I don't run OS X 22:18:13 I never noticed GIMP to be clunky or slow on Windows. Of course it was horribly buggy about 5 or 10 years ago. 22:18:27 evoli [n=yuhsin@220-135-33-149.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:42 Plus I hardly think that conformity is the sole measure of virtue when it comes to GUI programming. 22:19:34 Personally I'm not a big fan of the GIMP's interface, but on its own screen it works pretty well. 22:19:42 I think it's pretty ok nowadays, my parents even got a scanner that shipped with a C that had GIMP/Win32 on it 22:20:23 s/C /CD / 22:21:08 (referring to the state of GIMP on Win32, not its interface) 22:21:20 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-65.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:02 *synx* <3 that freeware program to give Microsoft multiple screens. 22:22:30 eli: I guess there are no PLTers who know about mzscheme's R6RS features likely to show up on #scheme? 22:22:46 synx: I'm at the exact opposite end: I *like* the gimp interface (more than photoshop which was horribly confused IMO), but in a GUI world conformity is *extremely* important. (Both Apple and MS base their existence around that.) 22:23:20 rotty: I know about a few, not much. The list would be more useful. 22:23:30 rotty: i think you are correct :) 22:24:54 *rotty* notes to mail the PLT list once he has a bunch of questions accumulated 22:25:09 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 22:25:43 Oh I never said Photoshop wasn't a $500 turd. 22:26:06 In a corporate world, conformity is extremely important. The rest of us are stimulated by new ways to think about things. 22:26:30 proq: I'm unix-savvy and even -I- won't run X11 apps on OS X most of the time 22:26:43 linux, sure 22:26:52 not OS X, though, if I can help it 22:27:10 synx: ipods and iphones must be good cases for corporate world applications. 22:27:36 synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:29:03 I've never used OS X before, so haven't a clue. 22:30:23 synx: That was cynicism. Conformity is most definitely goes well beyond "corporate"; most of "us" are happier with conforming applications. 22:30:33 They both start with 'i'. 22:30:55 -!- evoli [n=yuhsin@220-135-33-149.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 22:30:57 evoli [n=yuhsin@220-135-33-149.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 22:32:41 I like an application that is simple and quick. Conformity isn't so important as continuity I'd say. 22:32:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 22:33:58 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:00 Euler started with a few statements about parallel lines, and proceeded to lead us into a complex mathematics that doesn't resemble lines at all, via unbroken deductive paths. 22:34:30 http://programming.nu/ <== hmmm.... 22:37:14 wow, it's... objective-C as a lisp 22:37:47 That masyu there has a second solution... 22:38:07 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-216.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:38:19 ozy`, this is not really good 22:38:40 I didn't say it was :p 22:39:28 That's what they claim. No examples or documentation though, just a blog of updates to a mysterious program 22:39:31 Oh no they're all in the lower right. 22:39:33 NON CONFORMINGLY 22:39:45 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 22:41:59 hm. still has a pretty awful syntax 22:42:40 hmm, the syntax of "is" in Nu doesn't seem very lispy 22:42:47 everyone wants to be the next matz or van rossum instead of making existing lisp/scheme/whatever better 22:43:20 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 22:43:30 I'd say chicken is more impressive, in terms of "scheme in ___" 22:43:33 rotty: don't write your GTK binding thinking that it's going to get any play on Windows. (Some hardware vendor bundling the GIMP doesn't make any case for that. Hardwave vendors will bundle any old shit, especially free shit.) One cannot overstate the importance of consistency (and its sister discoverability) in an environment. 22:43:45 Hell, that's much of the appeal of Emacs. 22:44:33 emacs = rotten mackerel by moonlight 22:44:34 Also, hardware vendors. I'm not sure what a hardwave vendor might be. Maybe somebody who sells over-frozen ice cream. 22:45:02 jcowan: and yet my cats show no interest in it. 22:45:04 hmmm... lisp on objective C... good luck porting that 22:45:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-216.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:27 proq: it might run on iPods... who knows? 22:46:30 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 22:46:39 Cats prefer fresh fish, I think. 22:46:46 anyway it's not so much "lisp on obj-C" as "obj-C with more parentheses" 22:46:56 ozy`, yes 22:47:02 Anyway, the metaphor is John Randolph on Henry Clay, and means "it shines and stinks, both" 22:47:39 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-089-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:26 I would like an Icon View, whether it's in GTK or not, as long as it works. 22:48:31 I think the value of rotty's idea is that if he automated the interface creation, then when the C programmers update GTK, the scheme programmers can automatically benefit from it. Instead of having to implement it in scheme/gui that only works with plt, or something. 22:50:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:26 Henry Clay, or Edward Livingston? 22:54:12 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:54:15 Seems like both claims are out there. 22:54:26 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:55:08 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:58:52 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:00:22 http://books.google.com/books?id=f9Hb6i90_mAC&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&source=bl&ots=7wxcRJS0ID&sig=Pq3PczDqVAPB4FcG8b5xI09sDms&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result - qv footnote 23:00:23 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5zydqw 23:00:46 hmm, Nu was ported to Linux already. not bad 23:01:05 An excellent description of Emacs, either way. 23:01:27 speaking of which, is there a scheme with objective-c bindings? 23:02:02 chicken seems to have some 23:03:01 http://chicken.wiki.br/objc 23:03:15 also http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/3/macosx.html 23:03:43 I think Gauche has a bridge, too. 23:03:54 gauche runs on OS X? 23:04:06 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:05:11 wait, I'm confusing it with guile 23:11:16 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:15:35 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:13 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:20:41 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:22:56 -!- __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Operation timed out] 23:23:53 cipher [n=cipher@pool-98-118-51-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:25:50 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 23:26:45 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 23:26:55 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:31:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:33:36 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066143.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:38 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 23:39:16 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:39:31 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 23:49:24 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-089-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:41 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 23:53:41 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:56:32 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)]