00:07:58 peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:41 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:14:11 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 00:17:05 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-069-162-239.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:49 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Network is unreachable] 00:19:00 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:22:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:25:22 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:36 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:17 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 00:58:05 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:32 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 01:06:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:26 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless302.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:09:41 alami [i=alami@pc64.riednet.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #scheme 01:10:13 -!- alami [i=alami@pc64.riednet.wh.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #scheme 01:10:54 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:04 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:25:17 incubot: THE COMMENT PERIOD IS NOW CLOSED. 01:25:19 point was that Scheme is such an elegant and small language standard that it *can* be developed in such a small period of time. 01:26:25 incubot: YOU *MUST* REGISTER SEPARATELY FOR THIS ELECTION, EVEN IF YOU REGISTERED FOR THE R6RS RATIFICATION PROCESS. 01:26:27 one `Robert Pastor,' director of the `Center for Democracy and Election Management' at `American University.' 01:28:06 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 01:28:21 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 01:33:11 -!- wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:26 brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:36:40 mejja: christ; i guess someone forgot to tell the plt cats that CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR FASCISM 01:38:07 why does the steering committee replacement read like a catholic credo? "We believe that R6RS is not the end of the Scheme language..." 01:38:19 that whole document is a hideous study in freudian slippage 01:39:18 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:12 klutometis: http://www.r6rs.org/steering-committee/election/pr.scm 01:49:18 Do you see what I see? 01:49:28 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:55 incubot: Vive La R4RS! 01:49:57 annotated #59716 with "Vive La Joseph McCarthy!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/59716#7 02:00:45 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 02:07:31 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-31-14.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:10:11 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-58-250.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:10:29 seetho [n=seetho@139.187.50.60.cbj01-home.tm.net.my] has joined #scheme 02:11:40 -!- brandelune 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[n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:03 So I have to grade student's projects and the framework code they're given has a function called logo-read which uses "read" to take in user input and spit out a list 02:34:46 I of course want to automate the testing of their projects, so what I've tried doing is creating a string port but now I need to change the current input port from which "read"would read 02:35:21 i can't figure out how to do it in UCB Scheme which is basically a bunch of hacks on top of STk 02:36:28 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:39 http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/schemexref.cgi?with-input-from-port 02:36:57 says it exists on Stk 02:38:09 incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:38:18 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:20 i've tried that i dont think it'll work 02:39:26 Unless somehow it works for functions where the actual input procedures are used inside 02:39:46 which from what i could tell isn't true 02:44:32 seetho_ [n=seetho@139.187.50.60.cbj01-home.tm.net.my] has joined #scheme 02:46:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:47:54 -!- seetho_ [n=seetho@139.187.50.60.cbj01-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 02:49:06 essentially, I just want to set a string as the thing that "read" reads from instead of stdin 02:49:35 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:50:46 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 02:51:02 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:56:31 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:01:10 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known as wastrel 03:19:41 mofmog2: do you have some non-working code to share? 03:19:58 still experimenting 03:20:21 and the code is on the other computer... i probably should've asked this question when i was on it 03:20:26 -!- mofmog2 [n=andrew@c-67-160-211-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 03:24:09 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OLAWDYME.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@ampere.divmod.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:25:38 kniu [n=kniu@OLAWDYME.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:25:38 Debolaz 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[n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:05 augustbankr__ [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:45:13 -!- augustbankr__ [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:35 augustbankr [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:10 -!- augustbankr [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:15 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:29 augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:47:49 -!- augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has left #scheme 03:48:00 hey grettke! i got an interview today :) 03:48:02 -!- tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.3 (berkeley-unix)"] 03:48:23 tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has joined #scheme 03:48:49 augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:50:58 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 04:01:52 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180069150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:05:29 mofmog [n=andrew@c-67-160-211-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:05:32 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 04:05:39 ok, i'm on my other computer now 04:05:42 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:05:43 where's a good place to paste code? 04:05:44 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 04:06:48 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:06:54 mofmog: http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme 04:07:57 bsmntbombdood_ [n=gavin@97-118-122-191.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:59 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-122-191.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:31 mofmog pasted "logo-read" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72014 04:10:28 so I try to do (define foo (open-input-string "print 1+2")) and then (with-input-from-port foo (lambda () (logo-read)) 04:10:37 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:10:49 logo-read however is a bunch of weird stuff on top of read-char 04:11:04 but apparently if i do with-input-from-port, foo gets exhausted 04:11:22 because if i do it a second time, i get #[eof] 04:16:55 offby1`` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:17:25 could it be that because (logo-read) doesn't give a prompt that that could be the issue? 04:17:41 no.. can't be, if i do (lambda () (read-char)) that works fine 04:17:47 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180068012.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:49 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:18:40 -!- Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181028193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:43 Wait, after you read the string from foo, you try to read the string again? Yes, that won't work. 04:19:57 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181057107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:20:09 no no i just did that to see if logo-read read anything at all 04:20:36 the problem is that whenever i do it, stk just hangs and i have to ctrl-c to stop whatever the heck it was doing 04:20:54 plus, it doesn't return what logo-read should return 04:21:34 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:50 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 04:22:49 hmm... 04:23:20 v 04:23:20 04:23:21 04:23:21 04:23:21 04:23:21 04:23:23 04:23:25 04:23:27 04:23:29 04:23:31 04:23:34 04:23:35 04:23:36 oh! 04:23:37 04:23:39 04:23:43 could it be that logo-read has to end on an \n? 04:23:48 -!- augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:23:53 and it isn't sufficient to have an eof 04:24:20 holy crap that worked 04:24:27 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:24:29 this was like freudian code help 04:24:31 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 04:24:34 -!- mofmog [n=andrew@c-67-160-211-18.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 04:24:43 ... 04:26:06 augustbankr [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 04:26:51 *augustbankr* apologises #scheme for accidental messages 04:30:51 -!- offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:33:04 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-172.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 04:33:54 -!- bsmntbombdood_ is now known as bsmntbombdood 04:37:33 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:39:08 offby1``` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:44:19 -!- offby1``` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:45:20 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:47:30 offby1 [n=erich@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:53:06 -!- offby1`` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:10:35 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181057107.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:36 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 05:12:47 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:13:40 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 05:14:25 -!- offby1 [n=erich@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:53 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:08 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 05:18:22 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181003087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:22:00 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 05:22:10 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:59 offby1 [n=user@li11-10.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 05:24:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:30:51 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@chld.ru] has joined #scheme 05:31:56 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:37:22 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:37:41 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:15 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:38:20 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:58 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 05:48:37 waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-862d80b1795959fa] has joined #scheme 05:49:17 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:57:59 -!- augustbankr [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:07:16 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit ["aunt jemima is the devil!"] 06:08:50 ben1597 [n=ben1597@c-24-245-3-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:09:56 I'm sure this is a common question, but I'm afraid I can't find a solution that feels right. 06:10:04 (i'm still relatively new to scheme) 06:10:31 I'm looking for an equivalent to (apply or '(#t #f #f ... #t)) 06:10:54 ah 06:11:02 maybe "ormap" 06:11:13 rudybot: eval (ormap ') 06:11:15 offby1: error: eval:1:8: read: unexpected `)' 06:11:20 ormap requires a lambda 06:11:23 rudybot: eval (ormap '(#t #f #f ... #t)) 06:11:23 offby1: error: ormap: expects at least 2 arguments, given 1: (#t #f #f ... #t) 06:11:27 so it do 06:11:33 rudybot: eval (ormap values '(#t #f #f ... #t)) 06:11:33 offby1: ; Value: #t 06:11:58 (ormap values (list #t (error "failure"))) 06:12:04 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberries"] 06:12:04 rudybot: eval (ormap values (list #t (error "failure"))) 06:12:05 jonrafkind: error: failure 06:12:14 ben1597, why do you have a list of booleans to begin with? 06:12:20 so not quite or, but good enough probably 06:12:27 returned from a map call 06:12:27 Riastradh: he collects them for the deposit. 06:13:15 to correct my above: I'm looking for an equivalent to (apply or #f '(#f #t...)) 06:13:59 (I'm catching up mentally with your responses) 06:17:33 (foldl (lambda (a b) (or a b)) #f '(#f #t ...)) 06:18:20 You really don't want to do that, jonrafkind... 06:18:38 (It's bad enough to have a list of booleans to begin with.) 06:18:48 no, really I wanted to do (create-car 'lamborghini), but that wasn't working out 06:19:15 maybe if I type the functions in all caps it will work 06:19:54 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-70-250-184-34.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:21:53 maybe it's better to replace the map with an or on the car with the (recursive) or on the cdr? 06:22:07 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 06:22:28 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:23:20 ben1597, it would be better to avoid the list of booleans altogether by doing the OR earlier. 06:29:22 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:31:35 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 06:38:52 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-172.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:01 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:46:57 -!- valiza1 [n=haroldo@r190-133-130-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #scheme 06:51:43 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:52:53 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:55:23 (rofl (lambda (lmao) 'yuck)) 06:58:08 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:08:50 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 07:11:10 -!- ben1597 [n=ben1597@c-24-245-3-7.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:12:15 how do i find whether two lists contain the same members? (irrespective of ordering) 07:13:00 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #scheme 07:14:42 augustbankr_ [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:16:26 -!- augustbankr_ [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:21 sort then compare 07:17:57 (and (andmap (lambda (i) (member i js)) is) (andmap (lambda (j) (member j is)) js)) 07:18:27 theres something in one of the srfi's for doing it 07:18:41 [thus begins the evolution of a schemer .. solutions using call/cc needed] 07:19:18 lset-intersection in srfi-1 07:22:31 augustbankr_ [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:24:20 augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:24:26 -!- augustbankr_ [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:15 -!- foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:36:04 -!- augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:36:28 augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:54:18 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:54:54 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:01:33 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:01:38 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:02:30 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:02:52 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.35] has joined #scheme 08:08:03 Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181011152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:10:21 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:11:30 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.160] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:11:53 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181003087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:41 foof [n=user@195.207.5.2] has joined #scheme 08:18:08 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:21:48 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:22:28 peterc [n=pc@134.7.95.68] has joined #scheme 08:26:27 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:38 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:29:10 -!- augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:31:23 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 08:32:43 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05465B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:37:38 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:39:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Success] 08:42:14 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.160] has joined #scheme 08:47:52 morning ;) 08:50:23 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:04 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:53:58 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181033033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:54:41 -!- Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181011152.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:34 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-62-141.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:04:37 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 09:07:49 Ragnaroek [i=54a67431@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-488b86f985bbf604] has joined #scheme 09:08:46 synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:09:24 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:13:26 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-31-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 09:13:39 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16:52 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67431@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-488b86f985bbf604] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:18:26 -!- peterc [n=pc@134.7.95.68] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:35 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:19:23 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@81.Red-81-38-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:24:39 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-31-14.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:49 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #scheme 09:25:51 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:12 hey does anyone know of a tutorial where i can learn how to write my own (simple) lisp interpreter in lisp itself? 09:26:28 SICP, LiSP 09:26:35 ? 09:26:47 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:08 TLS 09:27:51 structure and interpretation of computer programs, lisp in small pieces (les langages lisp) 09:27:54 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-5-205.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 09:30:11 i mean something online on the web that i can just read 09:30:16 not a book :) (if possible) 09:30:33 SICP is available on the web 09:30:37 See the topic 09:31:36 what's the diff. b/w scheme and clos? 09:31:45 ... 09:32:33 What do you think Scheme is? 09:32:34 what's the diff between java and stl? 09:32:38 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05465B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:32:38 What do you think CLOS is? 09:33:14 clos is an object system for common lisp, scheme is a language 09:35:31 ok i meant 09:35:39 what is the diff between common lisp and scheme :) 09:35:58 about 1000 pages 09:36:08 foof: only 900 now ;P 09:36:29 banisterfiend: common lisp is a much larger language, it has more extensive libraries. 09:36:33 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-31-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:49 scheme is focussed on having a small core language 09:37:06 though it is apparently moving away from that focus 09:37:44 Common-Lisp has more extensive _basic_ libraries. 09:38:33 It gives you more access to the host environment, has a few extra default data-structures like hash-tables, and has a more integrated printer with pretty-printing. 09:39:01 It still does not have portable networking, GUI, or database access. 09:39:13 Neither does R6RS. 09:40:03 so why bother with scheme at all ? 09:40:12 when common lisp seems to be able to do everything scheme can do and more 09:40:19 ... you missed my point. 09:40:42 The extra things CL does aren't really that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. 09:40:45 banisterfiend: common lisp is a different language. 09:40:45 (pun intended) 09:40:57 hehe 09:41:09 :) 09:41:21 banisterfiend: it's like asking "should i use Ruby or Python" 09:41:28 When you write an application in either language you'll need to use a lot of implementation-specific extensions. 09:41:39 Any popular Scheme implementation has all the features of CL and more. 09:41:46 oh ok 09:42:04 foof: i wouldn't claim that 09:42:21 well i would like to learn a "lisp", and i think the best way to do it might be writing a lisp interpreter in lisp 09:42:21 oh, you mean the actual CL stuff, not the libraries 09:42:24 But those extensions are very unportable in R5RS, moderately unportable in R6RS, and actually semi-portable among CL implementations. 09:42:25 i heard it's not very difficult 09:43:08 is that right? 09:43:15 it's not too hard to write a lisp interpreter? 09:43:19 or was i lied to? 09:43:25 It's pretty easy. 09:43:30 cool 09:43:31 that depends entirely on what your interpreted language should be able to do 09:43:31 Start with SICP. 09:43:40 just a very simple variant of lisp 09:44:43 banisterfiend: then do what foof says, SICP takes you through everything you need to know (and more) 09:44:45 sicp actually helps. it learns you how to walk before you can actually run 09:45:24 well really sicp looks a bit full on a bit overwhelming, i really just want something much simpler and to the point, i dont necessarily need all that theory 09:45:38 banisterfiend: I find The Little Schemer a great book 09:45:49 banisterfiend: actually it's not that overwhelming. 09:45:51 It's quite short and teaches you the basics 09:46:06 (it includes a small Lisp interpreter, too) 09:46:15 but it has lots of details on stuff you should know. 09:46:24 cool 09:46:30 is it available on the web sjamaan? 09:56:25 olgen [n=jacobm@2005ds3-by.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #scheme 10:00:42 banisterfiend: you can still gain a lot from SICP without too much investment, by skimming over the harder / more technical bits 10:00:59 getting the gist and spirit 10:01:11 you can always come back and cover the depth 10:14:33 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 10:15:39 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:15:46 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:32:13 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181033033.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:35:29 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181030181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:52:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:45 -!- Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:56:35 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:56:49 Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181034032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:57:39 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181030181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:58:53 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:01:10 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #scheme 11:01:32 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:02:01 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-70-250-184-34.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 11:04:14 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:05:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:18 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@adsl-70-250-184-34.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 11:08:32 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:49 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:10:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-178-234.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:11:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:12:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:15:18 -!- Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:33 Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:16:17 edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:22:09 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 11:32:44 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 11:44:13 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:49:31 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:51:28 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 11:51:45 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 11:51:48 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:53:04 hello 11:55:22 I read that critical view of SICP and rationale for HTDP. What is, in your opinion, better for start learning programming? 11:55:35 http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/fffk-htdp-vs-sicp-journal/paper.pdf 11:55:37 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6z3cy7 11:59:27 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 11:59:46 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:10 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 12:01:19 edico, I don't think you can learn programming by reading book reviews 12:01:46 me neither 12:04:43 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:41 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:07:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:24:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 12:42:02 -!- Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181034032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:59 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181036191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 12:47:41 a-s [n=user@89.38.174.194] has joined #scheme 12:49:56 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-19-122.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:55:02 cracki [n=cracki@46-181.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 12:55:42 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 13:00:33 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:42 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 13:01:16 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-5-205.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:47 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:04:07 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:05:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:09:20 edico: HTDP has the advantage that there's a Scheme system designed to be used with it, whereas the examples in SICP, I don't think _quite_ work in any existing scheme (although perhaps they work outta the box in MIT Scheme) 13:09:23 ... Riastradh would know 13:10:25 -!- foof [n=user@195.207.5.2] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:10:54 thank you offby1 13:11:41 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181036191.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:55 raikov [n=igr@122.145.153.81] has joined #scheme 13:19:49 -!- wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:21:43 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-181.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:55 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:23:06 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181013028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 13:28:03 synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:33:33 edico: both books are reputed to be good. I've read SICP but only glanced at HTDP. 13:34:24 offby1: mit-scheme comes with a compatibility file for SICP AFAIK 13:34:37 ah, that's not surprising. 13:41:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 13:42:52 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 13:43:30 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 13:44:33 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-19-122.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:35 Ragnaroek [i=8f5d3597@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5de0dc7f5e67b14e] has joined #scheme 13:46:26 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5d3597@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5de0dc7f5e67b14e] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:32 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:51:36 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-44-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 13:54:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:58:41 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:58:54 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 14:01:31 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:01 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 14:04:06 benny` [n=benny@i577A2292.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 14:06:41 incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 14:06:55 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 14:09:40 -!- raikov [n=igr@122.145.153.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A45.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:20:13 mfredrickson [n=mfredric@c-98-212-171-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:21:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:23:14 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 14:25:10 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 14:30:33 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 14:33:14 fuckin awesome! i got the job :) 14:33:46 ah, that's not surprising. 14:35:01 but for this time of the year! i was not expecting anything to pop up till mid Jan 14:35:18 leppie: congrats! 14:35:29 at least i dont have to stress over new years like normal 14:35:29 now it's my turn, I hope 14:35:33 thx ventonegro 14:39:22 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181013028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:30 congratulations ;) 14:39:36 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 14:42:10 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:46:32 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:47:45 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:49:41 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 14:50:36 -!- waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-862d80b1795959fa] has quit ["mibbit.com: later"] 14:52:45 Alex___ [n=chatzill@116.225.109.25] has joined #scheme 14:54:57 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:55:20 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181042059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:05:57 so are these jobs scheme-related? 15:06:09 *offby1* will seethe with envy if so 15:06:34 nope :( 15:07:01 i would probably take a 60% pay cut for a scheme job 15:07:21 but not a shitty one 15:08:33 are there shitty scheme jobs? Hard to imagine. 15:09:30 you have a weak imagination :p 15:10:11 you could be forced to fixup someelse's crappy scheme, that came from a solid 13 years vb3 career 15:10:17 how would i write a recursive function to walk a list and perform an action on every element in the list 15:10:40 What would you do for an empty list, banisterfiend? 15:10:42 banisterfiend: is it a tree? 15:10:47 just a list 15:11:10 empty list then do nothing 15:11:18 are you allowed to use builtin procedures? 15:11:22 yes 15:11:23 What about a non-empty list, i.e. a pair? 15:11:26 it's not a homework problem 15:11:28 for-each 15:11:33 or map 15:11:43 but im trying to understand recursion 15:11:47 i dont have much experience with it 15:11:49 lol @ not homework :) 15:11:57 ahh 15:12:27 I would say is: figure exactly how handy a named let is :) 15:12:42 it's actually an elisp program 15:12:45 sorry, bit too much beer :) 15:13:08 banisterfiend, perhaps I ought to take a step back: How is a list structured? 15:13:10 damn leppie -- it's afternoon AND SUMMER where he is 15:13:12 im trying to write an elisp function that walks the list of open windows and switches the buffers round 15:13:17 bastard 15:13:27 afternoon for me? it's 4am! 15:13:33 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #scheme 15:13:37 by me, yes, and in the high 20's too 15:13:46 awesome 15:13:47 banisterfiend: I'd just call "map", myself 15:13:54 and sub 5 degree beer :p 15:14:01 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.57.163] has joined #scheme 15:14:11 Riastradh: it's just a list of open windows 15:14:23 (What is this? Giving useless answers to discourage someone from learning how to think about recursive solutions to problems?) 15:14:34 Riastradh: every window has associated with it a buffer and i want to get each window to sets its buffer to the buffer of the next window on the list 15:14:43 so im rotating around the buffers for the windows 15:14:51 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.160] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:14:58 so if i have 2 windows open, then i want them to switch their buffers 15:14:59 get it? :) 15:15:03 banisterfiend, OK -- I didn't mean the contents of the list, which are for the present purpose irrelevant. I'm talking about nils and conses, or empty lists and pairs. 15:15:12 banisterfiend, do the terms cons, car, and cdr mean anything to you? 15:15:22 yes i understand car and cdr 15:15:28 car is the head and cdr is the rest 15:15:56 So, if you have a non-empty list, and you want to perform an action for each element of that list, what element is most readily available to you? 15:16:26 the first one? 15:16:43 i want the buffer assocaited with the first element to equal the buffer associated with the second element, and so on 15:17:05 ...ah. That's a little more complex. 15:17:23 yeah i could solve it using iteration easily 15:17:29 but oh so easy in a procedural language :p 15:17:30 but i want to get into this whole recursive biz 15:17:48 or do you think recursion is the wrong way to go about it? 15:18:11 banisterfiend: i get stuck in those ways still, i been doing procedural too long i think 15:18:26 Consider a simpler problem first, banisterfiend, where the action you want to perform depends only on a single element of the list. 15:18:33 banisterfiend: oh, you're doing elisp stuff. You should ask in #emacs 15:18:38 i haven't touched a functional language before so i've managed to avoid complicated recusrive functions up till now 15:18:44 even worse, I go and mix the two! :( 15:18:51 elisp is different enough from scheme that any answer you get here is unlikely to help in emacs 15:18:58 (What is this?? Do you folks just want to prevent banisterfiend from learning about a thought process?) 15:19:00 well im just curious about the theory actually 15:19:11 you'll get the theory in here just as fine 15:19:20 and for basic list operations, elisp and scheme are practically the same 15:19:21 I'm incensed. Please be useless somewhere else, leppie & offby1. 15:19:31 (save for a few name differences) 15:19:40 hehe 15:19:51 ? 15:19:53 i think they're just having a bit of fun, anyway is this a complicated problem do you think? 15:19:57 banisterfiend: i had somewhere such a piece of elisp code 15:20:42 but I'll have to be at my home desktop (in a couple of hours) to pastebin you that piece 15:20:47 ?!?!? 15:20:57 Sorry, I am truly baffled right now. 15:21:00 Riastradh: ok how do i start? 15:21:20 1. banisterfiend walks in here and asks how to solve a problem using recursion, because he doesn't know how to think about recursion right now. 15:21:44 2. leppie says: Use the standard FOR-EACH routine! What does this have to do with learning how to think about recursion? 15:22:00 I thought banisterfiend was trying to get something done in emacs. 15:22:03 whatever. 15:22:04 2. offby1 says: Use the MAP procedure! 15:22:20 well, I said it's what _I'd_ do. 15:22:52 3. banisterfiend clarifies that his problem is not as simple as he originally made it seem (and mentions that it happens to be about elisp), but emphasizes that he wants to understand how to think about the problem recursively. 15:22:59 4. offby1 redirects banisterfiend to #emacs. 15:23:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:23:45 banisterfiend: Just to top it off, I think you should use macros and input ports. 15:23:56 5. ltsampros offers to hand banisterfiend some existing code. 15:24:15 ok, ok, so you're reading more closely than I am 15:24:19 Am I the only one flummoxed by this sequence of events? Was it not clear that this was about learning to think, not throwing together fragments of existing code willy-nilly? 15:24:30 chill 15:24:40 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:01 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181042059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:25:56 banisterfiend, OK, so: let's suppose you had a slightly simpler problem, to illustrate recursion. Suppose you have an action that depends only on one element of the list at a time. For example, perhaps you want to insert the string "fnord" into each buffer. (This is contrived, but the way that you solve this problem will help to solve the slightly more complex problem.) 15:26:40 yay, simplify! 15:26:42 ok 15:26:42 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181002171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:27:22 hmmm 15:27:26 banisterfiend, the idea behind solving a problem recursively is to identify the different cases to which the problem might apply, such as an empty list and a non-empty list; and for each of those cases, to break it up into smaller problems. 15:27:37 In the case of an empty list, there are no smaller problems, so you stop there. 15:28:17 In the case of a non-empty list, you break a piece off of the problem, solve a smaller problem, i.e. the same problem but with the rest of the list, and then combine the piece you broke off with the solution to the smaller problem in order to solve the larger problem. 15:28:40 ok right 15:28:48 Huh, you know... it seems like writing a recursive iterator is equivalent to writing a proof by induction. 15:29:07 synx, yes, the ideas are absolutely analogous. 15:29:24 So, if you want to perform an action for each element of a list, break it up into cases. What are the cases you will have to deal with, banisterfiend? 15:29:25 synx, nice observation -- this in detail studied in lambda calculus 15:29:47 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:30:20 lists can be naturally broken into their members, so each member represents one of those smaller problems. 15:31:20 if you defined N like ZERO or (SUCC ), primitive recursion on that is the normal peano induction 15:33:01 vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 15:34:24 banisterfiend? 15:34:37 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-62-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 15:34:43 hehe im working on it 15:35:02 sorry 15:35:54 well if it's empty we obviously do nothing 15:35:59 Right. 15:36:04 but i can't figure out the other case, i mean i can't think about recursively sorry 15:36:30 Now suppose we have a non-empty list, in which case we have a car and a cdr of the list, or the first element and the rest of the elements. 15:36:51 Since we have an element of the list, what do we want to do with it? 15:37:05 we want to perform our action on it 15:38:21 we grab the car and we print "fnord" into its buffer 15:38:26 Right. Now, recall that we're defining how to perform an action on each element of a list. 15:38:58 and then we call ourselves again on the cdr? 15:39:02 We've just performed the action for one element of the list, but we have all the other elements of the list still to deal with. 15:39:28 Precisely. 15:40:03 The solution to the problem for the cdr of the list is a piece of the solution to the problem for the whole list. 15:40:03 cool 15:40:26 Can you write this down in a program, now, rather than in English? 15:40:27 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:41:05 hmm ok it might take some time thought because i've been doing lisp only a very short time 15:41:06 brb 15:43:52 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-44-188.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:28 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:25 Riastradh, do you know the argument for correctness of shunting yard? 15:45:48 No. 15:46:38 i know this syntax isn't right but maybe something like this: (defun putter(x) (if (equal (car x) nil) (format t "do nothing") ((format t (car x)) (putter (cdr x)))) 15:46:44 wingo-tp [n=wingo@81.Red-81-38-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:47:25 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181002171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:26 First, how do you ask whether a list is empty? 15:47:43 i compare the car of x to nil 15:47:56 if (car x) is nil then it must be empty right? 15:48:04 No, that's not quite right. It is a historical accident that that may work in elisp. 15:48:15 To be precise: it is a historical accident that the car of the empty list is nil. 15:48:21 But there are non-empty lists whose cars are nil, too. 15:48:42 ok so i just compare x to nil 15:48:45 ? 15:48:48 of course 15:48:49 Instead there is a function called `null', which returns t if its argument is nil. 15:49:09 Conversely, there is a function called `consp' which returns t if its argument is a non-empty list, i.e. a pair or a cons. 15:49:21 (In Scheme, these are called NULL? and PAIR?.) 15:49:27 ah 15:49:30 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181019040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 15:49:48 nice 15:49:54 i like the '?' 15:50:08 So what does your code look like now? 15:50:17 it's used in Scheme for most functions that return either #t or #f 15:50:44 (if( (NULL? x)) 15:50:58 Are you writing elisp or Scheme code? 15:51:15 scheme 15:51:55 OK. Now, if you write ((null? x)), Scheme will evaluate (null? x), which will yield either #T or #F, boolean constants. Then Scheme will evaluate (#t) or (#f), which means `apply #t/#f as if it were a procedure'. 15:52:04 But it makes no sense to apply a boolean as if it were a procedure. 15:52:21 ok (if (NULL? x)) sorry 15:52:36 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:52:55 (When I write a Scheme name in uppercase, it is to distinguish the name from the surrounding English words.) 15:53:11 ah 15:53:16 (It works to write (if (NULL? x) ...) but one generally doesn't write that.) 15:53:24 np 15:55:12 What does the rest of the code look like? 15:55:45 i wasn't sure how to do the else case for the if 15:55:53 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:56:04 i want the else case to include both the action (the (format t) and also the recursive call 15:56:10 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-217-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 15:56:17 but im not sure how to go about that 15:56:29 It is tempting simply to put two expressions in parentheses to group them together in sequence. This doesn't work, though, because the meaning would be `apply the value of the first expression, as if it were a procedure, to the value of the second expression'. 15:56:45 yeah 15:56:46 There is a special operator called BEGIN in Scheme (`progn' in elisp) for this purpose. 15:56:57 rudybot: eval (begin (display "Hello, world!") 'fnord) 15:56:58 Riastradh: ; Value: fnord 15:56:58 Riastradh: ; stdout: "Hello, world!" 15:57:09 ah cool 15:57:39 so i want: eval(begin (display (car x)) (putter (cdr x))) 15:57:53 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 15:58:15 (`Eval' is a command to rudybot, not part of your program.) 15:58:27 hehe so much to learn, sorry 15:59:36 but i think im beginning to understand 15:59:41 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 15:59:42 -!- Alex___ [n=chatzill@116.225.109.25] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 16:01:51 i can probably try to have a crack at it now 16:01:56 and get back to you if im successful 16:02:31 is (begin ) supported in common lisp and elisp too? 16:03:24 It is called PROGN in Common Lisp and in elisp. 16:04:05 cool, alright i think i have an understanding of where to go now, thanks for your help and your patience :) 16:04:08 (It denotes a program whose value is that of the Nth subexpression. Yes, the name is horrid in archaic Lisps.) 16:04:18 hehe 16:04:30 well compared to cdr and car it's pretty understandable actually :) cheers 16:05:10 ah, PROG2 is the coolest thing ever :) 16:05:48 banisterfiend: try to write a few simple functions that work on lists recursively 16:05:59 it will come naturally after some time and practise 16:06:11 practice? 16:06:33 i hope so, it'd be cool to get into the recursive style of thinking 16:06:57 seems really elegant somehow 16:07:39 ecraven, yeah, especially the PROG2 in the ANSI CL standard. 16:07:42 good day. 16:07:44 *Riastradh* coughs. 16:09:02 *offby1* sneezes 16:09:11 *gnomon* hiccoughs 16:09:18 specbot: clhs prog2 16:09:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm 16:09:22 *Riastradh* hiccups at gnomon. 16:09:37 *offby1* prepares to top them all, but thinks better of it 16:12:58 awesome it worked 16:13:01 thanks!! 16:13:15 banisterfiend: i like the fact that very often your recursive functions are purely functional, so you can think about them without side effects 16:14:11 that's not true ecraven 16:14:24 yeah, those kinds of functions are ultimately what i want to create since they seem to be the best way to deal with threading issues (so im told) 16:14:36 neither is that banisterfiend 16:14:41 ok 16:14:42 heeh 16:14:44 vixey: it is for the ones i write :) 16:14:58 A lot of people say that if you don't use side effects then it makes threading easier 16:15:00 This is not true 16:16:12 pure functional programming will not help you much with interlocking, shared-state threads 16:16:30 it won't? 16:16:34 use erlang :) 16:16:44 ozy`: why not? 16:17:07 yeah I like that use earlang 16:17:18 vixey: can you explain why and not just make a statement? 16:17:21 A program designed without mutable state will help to avoid processes that rely on synchronization of said mutable state. 16:17:22 because I said so 16:17:26 *ozy`* escapes to Canada 16:17:51 Writing programs in a purely functional language will not intrinsically avoid processes that rely on synchronization of mutable state. 16:19:01 jlongster, I would if I was saying something that wasn't widely known 16:19:12 vixey, if what people say bothers you, don't listen to them. By mocking without elaboration, you are being nothing but a pest. Please avoid that. 16:19:39 Riastradh: You are always misinterpreting why I say things.. 16:20:04 That's because what you say does not lend itself to straightforward interpretation; everyone around you has to guess what you're trying (and failing) to get at. 16:20:10 So cut it out. 16:20:12 I'm not bothered by something but I think it's good to know this (especially that thing you said) rather than all these assumptions that aren't strictly true 16:20:44 vixey: if you say something else and don't explain, it's an assumption as well 16:20:59 ventonegro: I disagree 16:21:01 vixey: don't believe that just because you are saying it makes it right 16:21:26 vixey: you may disagree all the way the hell, but you annoy this channel nevertheless 16:21:34 It doesn't matter whether what you say is true if you are unwilling to justify it. 16:21:38 I didn't want to get into a discussion (nor metadiscussion) about concurrency 16:21:45 So why did you enter the discussion, vixey? 16:21:51 I just want to dilute this FUD that pure FP makes threading triviala 16:23:28 (`Kitsch' is perhaps a better term than `FUD' here.) All that you accomplish by interjecting mockery is to irritate those around you. It does not remotely begin to reduce or correct the kitsch surrounding purely functional programs and concurrency. 16:24:22 Speak clearly and justify your claims if you want to change anyone's mind. Your current approach doesn't work. 16:26:21 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:26:54 BTW, has anyone played with Clojure's agents? Are they worth? 16:35:19 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@2005ds3-by.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 16:38:49 ok im stuck on this problem 16:39:15 how i write a recursive function do to take a list: (1 2 3 4 5) and convert it to (2 3 4 5 1) (i.e rotate it around) 16:39:44 i can do this (1 2 3 4 5) ---> (2 3 4 5 nil) but i can't figure how to get the 1 to loop round 16:39:53 elegantly anyway 16:39:59 banisterfiend, the requirement for it to be recursive is silly 16:40:18 sounds like a class assignment 16:40:23 vixey, you are silly. 16:40:29 do you just want exercise in recursive programming? 16:40:34 yeah 16:40:35 exercise 16:40:39 :) 16:41:23 banisterfiend, write APPEND, write REVERSE using APPEND then adapt APPEND to REVAPPEND to write a more efficient version of REVERSE 16:41:41 hehe 16:42:02 banisterfiend: can you write a recursive function to take a value A, and a list B, and put A on the end of B? 16:42:11 Riastradh: ?? 16:42:25 synx: yeah that's what i was thinking, but i didn't think that was very elegant 16:42:29 but maybe that's the way 16:42:56 Sounds like a plan to me. See if it isn't so elegent after all. 16:43:27 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-56-158.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 16:44:00 ok ill work on it thanks 16:45:16 Riastradh: I do not understand, how can you assert that I am silly without evidence? 16:45:45 vixey, perhaps you see now the futility of persuading anyone of anything with interjections such as that! 16:46:38 touchè 16:47:29 (That should be an acute accent, not a grave accent.) 16:47:38 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-62-21.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:47:41 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 16:47:47 maybe even ée :) 16:47:47 touché 16:48:14 pokeymans 16:48:36 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:54:24 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:55:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 17:03:11 that doesn't read as touche´ on my end either 17:03:21 touche ´ 17:03:35 touché! 17:06:37 What kind of webboid junkie are you, gnomon? C'est `touch\'e'. 17:07:27 touchey, touchey. 17:10:56 Riastradh, actually, I have to admit to a shameful ignorance of TeX syntax (and roff, for that matter). 17:11:05 They've both been on my to-learn list for a while now. 17:11:07 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["leaving"] 17:11:10 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 17:11:30 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 17:12:55 -!- a-s [n=user@89.38.174.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:09 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 17:16:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 17:20:16 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:45 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-144-245.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:27:19 offby1: ping 17:27:45 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:29:19 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:30:11 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-216.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:32:58 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 17:33:23 gnomon: yes, but the question is, is your to-learn list 10 lines long, or 100? :) 17:34:11 foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 17:35:05 proq, does the length of the list matter, or the number of entries on it that precede roff and TeX? 17:35:08 Anyone whose `to-learn list' can be completely enumerated in a mere hundred lines is either frighteningly knowledgeable or disturbingly resistant to learning. 17:35:21 more like 10000 17:35:33 What I know could fill a book, &c. 17:35:53 I don't have a list 17:36:04 gnomon: I suppose that would depend on how you approach the list 17:36:59 What I don't know could fill a lot of books. 17:37:15 Meanwhile, I know I need a sandwich right now. 17:37:31 synx, usually what's said is `...could fill a library'. 17:37:49 I did not know that. 17:38:18 ...although, to be fair, that's not really accurate either, since plenty of pairs of libraries have non-intersecting material, so it should really be `...could fill libraries.' 17:38:18 I finished the learn-scheme-in-fixnum-days book last week, and was surprised that it ended so quickly.. maybe I expected it to cover some SRFIs, I don't know 17:39:02 But forget libraries; I need a sandwich. 17:39:11 To me 'Learn scheme in fixnum days' looks pretty much like a reference; but an incomplete one at that. 17:39:27 There's little programming in practice 17:40:21 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-2-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:40:36 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:43:00 DuClare, yeah SICP and R5RS is better 17:43:00 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-56-158.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:43:07 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 17:43:15 I agree 17:43:25 fixnum days has a pun in the title but most of the material is in SICP already 17:43:28 or R5RS 17:43:47 so overally, not better than SICP 17:44:09 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181019040.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:54 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181002082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 17:48:37 offby1 pasted "metaphor" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72043 17:49:47 'snork'? 17:50:05 eli: got a very vague question for ya. Take a look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72043, and ponder: does it make sense that changing the immutable hash to a mutable hash would cause the for-each to take longer? 17:50:37 I'm not saying that that particular code exhibits this behavior; rather, some more complex code (but which, nevertheless, I believe to be essentially similar) appears to be. Totally baffles me. 17:50:51 gnomon: yeah, "snork". You gotta problem wid dat? 17:51:00 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:49 oh, and changing the (hash-update ...) to (begin (hash-update! ...) h), too 17:53:37 you doing an update during the map? 17:53:55 nope 17:53:56 oh! :) 17:54:05 nvm me delayed reactions :) 17:54:42 I should put all my git repositories on github ...easier to share 'em 17:54:57 offby1, um, it would probably be better to show some real code that exhibits the problem. 17:56:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless272.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:56:22 what is the difference when you turn off optimizations 17:56:50 Riastradh: well, ok, but I worried that there'd be enough cruft around it that it'd be hard to understand. 17:57:05 leppie: haven't tried. I don't even know if it's possible to do that (in PLT scheme) 17:57:17 Riastradh: anyway I'll try to get it into github soon (but my bus will come soon too) 17:59:55 OK, the code that uses mutation is at http://github.com/offby1/anagrams/tree/mutable 18:00:11 and if you look at http://github.com/offby1/anagrams/commit/707635e63e8053705d898a364878b970eeb08602 you'll see how it differs from the immutable version 18:00:12 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6dyl5y 18:00:27 the mutable version runs about three times faster :-| 18:00:31 im actually rather confused by the fact that you can update an immutable hashtable... 18:02:39 offby1, yes, this is because updates to immutable hash tables generally require a great deal of copying. 18:02:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:14 At the very least, you'll get logarithmic rather than constant factors -- but it will hardly be a hash map then! 18:03:18 lol, i was actually halfway ontrack? :p 18:03:39 So most likely each update runs in time linearly proportional to the number of elements in the hash map. 18:04:41 how does an immutable hash work? :o 18:04:53 something like Data.Map does in Haskell? 18:05:19 offby2 [n=Android@m0b0e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #scheme 18:05:20 binary tree 18:05:50 okay 18:05:55 cold and rainy bus stop 18:06:04 :-( 18:06:22 offby2: how cold? it was -14 C here this morning :p 18:06:33 ok, cold for seattle 18:06:40 hehe 18:07:14 then I'd assume it's warm for North Coldland (Also known as Norway) 18:08:04 ah well, I had better go back to solving PDEs... God how I hate the exam period 18:08:41 It's cold for louisiana :( 18:09:04 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 18:09:18 offby2: that's odd, I'm in Portland (now) and it was ~10 C this morning 18:09:23 snowed in la yestewrday 18:09:35 yeah 18:09:42 what?? -10C in pdx?! 18:09:50 the snow didn't stay on the ground here, but it was snowing heh 18:09:50 10C 18:09:51 nevah 18:09:58 oh. 18:10:02 more like pneumonia for louisiana. 18:10:08 small font. 18:10:19 it's 50F now...coooold :( 18:10:24 last night it was like 30 heh 18:10:28 must be global warming 18:10:29 sissies :p 18:10:55 *sladegen* pats his polar bear. 18:10:55 if it's -14C in Seattle, it should have been at least 0C in Portland 18:10:57 if it was 10 C, I'd be wearing shorts! 18:11:12 it's about 12C here heh 18:11:12 hehe, I'm wearing a Polo shirt 18:11:41 damn, I freeze at 12C 18:12:02 12C is perfect, that's why I moved up here 18:12:11 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #scheme 18:12:15 0_0 18:12:17 Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181015010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:12:20 well, that and less expensive houses 18:12:54 At least when it's cold, you can always warm yourself 18:13:02 there's only so much you can take off when it's hot :( 18:13:16 mbishop: air conditioning? 18:13:19 hate it when my dentures freeze 18:13:50 ventonegro: sure, but 1) super high bill if you run it all summer and 2) now power during hurricanes (which happen during the summer) 18:13:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-182.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:13:54 mbishop: exactly :) 18:13:55 I'm finding that I don't know anything about the climate on the other side of the dam 18:13:59 now/no* 18:14:06 -!- offby1 [n=user@li11-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:14:08 mbishop: oh 18:14:17 mbishop: we don't have hurricanes here 18:14:28 agree with the power bill, though 18:14:32 -!- offby2 is now known as offby1 18:15:00 you guys get tornados and hurricanes, we just have exceedingly cold winters 18:15:14 thinking that through, I don't think I envy you that much :p 18:15:26 rain rain rain 18:15:45 whine whine whine 18:16:02 we have that a lot too, heh. Snow from october to march, though. 18:16:02 wine wine wine 18:16:11 cheese cheese cheese 18:16:36 Fourier transforms fourier transforms... bye \o 18:19:10 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:19:14 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-144-245.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:21:48 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181002082.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:16 im saving the (car) of a list to a variable, but then im modifying the car in the list....will that affect the value stored in the variable? 18:27:16 and if so, how do i get it so i get a copy that isn't affected by later modificaitons to the car in the list? 18:27:47 nope 18:27:57 try it 18:28:01 and see 18:28:10 i did and it appears to modify the car in the list 18:28:49 but i might just be doing something wrong... 18:28:54 paste ;-) 18:29:21 gimmie a sec ill read back over it 18:34:12 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:40:16 -!- offby1 [n=Android@m0b0e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:30 offby2 [n=Android@m4b0e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #scheme 18:42:19 -!- Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181015010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:26 offby2_ [n=Android@74.203.51.134] has joined #scheme 18:43:15 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181010129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 18:45:30 -!- offby2 [n=Android@m4b0e36d0.tmodns.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:42 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 18:49:14 finally, a decent keyboard ... but will the connection be usable? Only time will tell 18:50:03 offby: i can't seem to find what's wrong with this code, but i get an argument error: http://gist.github.com/35223 18:51:42 lisppaste: url 18:51:43 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 18:51:50 rotate-windows does not need () at the end? 18:51:59 It's most convenient for us in this channel to use lisppaste. 18:52:31 yeah! 18:52:42 i didn't realize it needed that, thanks! 18:52:46 it works now! 18:52:56 banisterfiend: you probably want rotate-windows to check _x_ against nil, not (cdr x) 18:54:11 ah ok 18:54:16 it works now though ;) 18:54:35 No, offby1. The assumption, I believe, is that the list is non-empty. 18:54:59 yea 18:56:49 banisterfiend? u have another question? ;P 18:56:59 no 18:57:03 i solved my lisp prob for tonight 18:57:14 now i just gotta figure how to get it into my standard emacs setup 18:57:14 hehe 18:58:50 offby2__ [n=Android@74.203.51.134] has joined #scheme 18:58:50 -!- offby2_ [n=Android@74.203.51.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:28 just mentioning IELM incase you didn't know about it yet 19:01:15 umis_ [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:42 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:04:25 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 19:04:50 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 19:05:26 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 19:12:00 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@chld.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:59 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181010129.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:25:42 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181014121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 19:27:00 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 19:33:49 what's good about scm? 19:34:59 It has a short name. 19:35:15 faint praise ;) 19:35:39 it's like atena, it sprung from one man's head. 19:36:28 wingo-tp, as far as tree-based interpreters go, it's not as slow as most. 19:36:29 yes 19:36:39 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 19:38:03 I always get them straight off the tree :)))) 19:40:09 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:43:24 mmm ... fresh interpreter 19:43:44 ejs1 [n=eugen@shiko2.soborka.net] has joined #scheme 19:47:07 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 19:47:25 mejja, critter report, stat! 19:50:42 Huh? 19:50:57 What, no critters to bother me about? 19:51:17 #\formfeed maybe. 19:52:02 #\page and #\ff (and #\np) not good enough? 19:52:30 No. Pelase add formfeed like so: (#x0C "page" "formfeed" "ff" "np") ;formfeed unabbreviated 19:55:07 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@shiko2.soborka.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:00:56 offby2 [n=Android@74.203.51.134] has joined #scheme 20:00:56 -!- offby2__ [n=Android@74.203.51.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:13 Riastradh: Please... 20:05:03 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-064-153-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:34 -!- mike is now known as Guest74504 20:05:49 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:19 What's the magic word? 20:06:32 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 20:07:29 *mejja* checks wikipedia 20:07:36 Sorry. May I have some ketchup, please? 20:07:58 now! 20:08:14 Those aren't magic words! ...even if catsup does have natural mellowing agents. 20:09:00 `Klaatu barada nikto' would be closer, but that's still not quite magic. 20:09:00 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 20:09:36 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 20:12:40 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 20:15:05 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.38.66] has joined #scheme 20:16:42 ketchup the vegetable 20:17:52 these are not the droids you are looking for 20:18:05 Come on; that's a Jedi mind trick, which is totally not magic. 20:18:15 :) 20:18:37 Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181004146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 20:19:45 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181014121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:51 mejja, any particular reason you want #\formfeed, by the way? 20:21:14 Compatibility with Scheme->C. 20:21:28 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:19 You folks are no good with magic. A simple `abracadabra' at the very least would have been *something*! 20:25:47 Thank you. 20:26:23 Sheesh. What's the world coming to when nobody can think up any magic words? 20:28:11 alakazam 20:30:25 *wingo-tp* admits to having seen harry potter films recently, again. 20:31:41 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:16 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 20:32:28 Riastradh: Feel free to add SRFI-95, or, hack the current sort to support optional key 20:32:37 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 20:34:03 hum. Is there a SRFI for modules in Scheme? 20:34:09 No. 20:34:28 is there widespread acceptance of any module system? 20:34:28 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:34:41 PLT probably 20:34:42 There's a SRFI for a useless `distribution format' known as R6RS libraries (which helpfully differs from what you will find in the R6RS). 20:34:45 No. 20:35:12 PLT's module system has widespread acceptance among PLT users. That's the most that can be said about it and widespread acceptance. 20:35:27 ah, alrighty 20:36:36 I had one question - how much does approx a single Chez license cost? 20:36:42 commercial purposees 20:36:46 *purposes 20:36:55 I'm asking because as I'm trying to do something for CL, I'd as well like to try to follow best practice from Scheme, maybe even be compatible 20:37:10 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 20:38:28 Personally I think that it would be easiest to use Scheme48's module system for that, but what I'd care most about is (1) that you separate phases sensibly, and (2) that you provide working hygiene. 20:38:37 -!- offby2 [n=Android@74.203.51.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:38:54 well you *could* look at PLT's, however I'll take Riastradh advice, he is much more enlightened on this 20:39:18 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:39:52 what do you mean by (1) ? 20:40:06 and is (2) more than hygienic macros? 20:40:08 PLT's is not all that much different in substance from Scheme48's. (There is an important difference concerning phase separation.) Cosmetically I think that Scheme48's is more flexible, although PLT's implementation is more flexible than Scheme48's at the moment. 20:41:09 can you expand on phase separation? 20:41:10 See Flatt, `Composable and Compilable Macros', 2002. 20:41:15 ok 20:43:23 (The R6RS's library system emphatically got phase separation wrong. Don't repeat their mistake.) 20:50:38 -!- Vital3031 [n=vital303@e181004146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:33 oh why not 20:55:12 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:06 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:52 augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 20:59:20 the mistake being, to allow multiple instantiation? :) 21:00:52 -!- augustbankr [n=bankr@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:29 sam___ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 21:04:00 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181061162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 21:06:04 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #scheme 21:07:53 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #scheme 21:09:00 (yes, what was the mistake?) 21:10:17 a-s [n=user@92.80.99.25] has joined #scheme 21:10:56 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:13:48 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #scheme 21:14:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-178-234.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:11 jdlouhy [n=dlouhy@c-24-63-200-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:15:22 -!- jdlouhy [n=dlouhy@c-24-63-200-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #scheme 21:15:37 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:16:24 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:16:32 The answer to that question is left as an exercise for the reader 21:16:39 or, as I like to say: "IRC Denizen" 21:23:34 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:59 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 21:31:11 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:25 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:32:04 vasa [n=vasa@mm-208-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 21:33:41 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:09 -!- umis_ [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:36:33 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:37:41 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-72-216.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:39:56 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:40:11 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:41:57 AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:42:09 -!- AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:38 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-208-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:43:46 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:44:43 Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:45:44 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:48:19 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181061162.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:51:05 vasa [n=vasa@mm-29-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 21:58:48 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.38.66] has quit ["later"] 21:59:03 Vital303 [n=vital303@e181014098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:01:30 i just now appreciated the argument against cothreading via call/cc: dynamic-wind. 22:09:24 -!- edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:09:45 Yes, instead one should use non-winding CWCC for that purpose. 22:10:21 i was not aware of the existence of such beasties. 22:10:51 They're not exposed in the standard language because you're not supposed to use them in any programs except those that implement concurrency. 22:11:15 interesting 22:11:27 hrmph: www.rscheme.org refused the connection. 22:12:10 In Scheme48, the relevant routine is called PRIMITIVE-CWCC (and associated with it, WITH-CONTINUATION). 22:12:32 Riastradh: tx 22:14:47 *wingo-tp* currently trying to flesh out a chapter on guile's history -- lots of forgotten memories of 15 years ago... 22:16:02 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:29 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:19:39 -!- Vital303 [n=vital303@e181014098.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:41 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 22:21:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:22:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:17 -!- edw [n=user@poseur.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:29 edw [n=user@poseur.com] has joined #scheme 22:39:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 22:56:30 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 23:01:17 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:11 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 23:05:33 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:46 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.255] has joined #scheme 23:10:24 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:08 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0537BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 23:21:41 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:25:37 -!- Guest74504 [n=mike@dslb-088-064-153-079.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:26:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:23 I was probably playing with Guile back then 23:28:14 Impossible... 23:28:33 your impossible 23:28:44 scheme 23:28:56 rudybot: eval (- 2008 1994) 23:28:56 mejja: ; Value: 14 23:29:41 wait, let me try 23:29:44 rudybot: eval (+ 3 2) 23:29:44 rudybot: eval (- 2009 1994) 23:29:44 offby1: ; Value: 5 23:29:44 proq: ; Value: 15 23:29:47 amazing 23:30:11 it *is* december 23:30:39 either that, or you're offby1 23:31:47 :) 23:31:51 although I will admit I don't know what month it was created 23:32:05 i was trying to figure that out 23:32:17 it's possible it existed in 1993 even 23:32:28 things were less public then. 23:32:32 the wiki says it was released in 1993 23:32:50 which wiki? 23:32:54 so it's almost 16 years old 23:33:02 wikipedia.org 23:33:07 *the* wiki 23:33:38 -!- certainty [n=closure@dslb-082-083-158-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:34:15 proq: http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.misc.discuss/msg/20df38928f5390dc 23:34:22 proq: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/0fc63a3b7f239525 23:35:56 mejja: it existed before then 23:36:11 http://basiscraft.com/notebook/guile-history.xml, btw 23:36:17 mejja: neither of those mention guile 23:36:39 minion: advice for proq 23:36:40 proq: #11912: Evidently it's important to you to get the wrong answer as quickly as possible. 23:37:57 proq: funny that wikipedia cites that using a publication that's not available on the internet 23:38:21 mejja: fitting response for someone who links to articles not mentioning guile 23:38:25 so yeah, "less public" 23:39:28 certainty [n=closure@dslc-082-082-132-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 23:41:34 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:40 brundlefliege [n=musha68k@h081217092231.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #scheme 23:52:00 if I were to go by the copyright dates in the guile 1.0 sources, I'd say 1996 though 23:53:44 ah, there we go 23:54:00 libguile/ChangeLog-scm:Sun Jan 31 01:01:11 1993 Aubrey Jaffer (jaffer at camelot) 23:54:19 so it's obvious from the changelog that they *were* working on guile in 1993 23:54:26 No. 23:55:31 that seems to be the SCM changelog, not the guile changelog 23:55:42 i'm not sure that tom did changelogs at all, until forced to 23:56:07 *wingo-tp* -> z. happy hacking 23:56:29 synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:57:02 hmm.. the files I was looking at were pulled from elsewhere in gnu projects 23:58:11 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0537BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:05 the changelog starts in 1991