02:17:33 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 02:17:33 02:17:33 -!- names: ccl-logbot ozy` geckosenator annodomini Deformative orgy` AppleBoy synthasee offby1 johnnowak ahelon_ roconnor drdo certainty|work ltsampros leppie sladegen araujo Kusanagi Daemmerung Vaeshir_ tizoc replor incubot jonrafkind arcfide borism__ sad0ur underspecified mmc errordeveloper xz ttmrichter_ rdd minion pjdelport sjamaan hiyuh DuClare elias` seth MelanomaSky pchrist bsmntbombdood Riastradh elmex AtnNn synx p1dzkl edw` mqt wastrel gnomon 02:17:33 -!- names: Elly cracki tltstc MichaelRaskin_ Jarvellis rmrfchik jeremiah mbishop dlouhy Cale isomer dfeuer aspect z0d kilimanjaro specbot lisppaste mornfall nasloc__ eno ineiros jdev CaptainMorgan cky proq saccade pbusser2 tarbo levi Axioplase docmach tessier gaja duncanm Mr_Awesome Adrinael ricky aquanaut djjack dsmith-work Khisanth Leonidas peyt tabe cmatei rotty eli cipher Poeir emma maxote Starsie kalven chandler felipe bascule agemo XTL ski__ 02:17:33 -!- names: rudybot mr_uggla elf vincenz r0bby michaelw merlincorey keyofnight heat zbigniew klutometis clog qebab kazzmir_ ski_ 02:28:27 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@69.254.168.3] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:32:56 -!- isomer [n=isomer@001310E6CB31.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:11 isomer [n=isomer@001310E6CB31.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:36:00 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 03:36:00 03:36:00 -!- names: ccl-logbot johnnowak_ AppleBoy benny synthasee isomer ozy` geckosenator annodomini Deformative offby1 ahelon_ roconnor drdo certainty|work ltsampros leppie sladegen araujo Kusanagi Daemmerung Vaeshir_ tizoc replor incubot jonrafkind arcfide borism__ sad0ur underspecified mmc errordeveloper xz ttmrichter_ rdd minion pjdelport sjamaan hiyuh DuClare elias` seth MelanomaSky pchrist bsmntbombdood Riastradh elmex AtnNn synx p1dzkl edw` mqt wastrel 03:36:00 -!- names: gnomon Elly cracki tltstc MichaelRaskin_ Jarvellis rmrfchik jeremiah mbishop dlouhy Cale dfeuer aspect z0d kilimanjaro specbot lisppaste mornfall nasloc__ eno ineiros jdev CaptainMorgan cky proq saccade pbusser2 tarbo levi Axioplase docmach tessier gaja duncanm Mr_Awesome Adrinael ricky aquanaut djjack dsmith-work Khisanth Leonidas peyt tabe cmatei rotty eli cipher Poeir emma maxote Starsie kalven chandler felipe bascule agemo XTL ski__ 03:36:00 -!- names: rudybot mr_uggla elf vincenz r0bby michaelw merlincorey keyofnight heat zbigniew clog qebab kazzmir_ ski_ klutometis 03:36:09 What about the depth of the string "fnord", or of the symbol FOOBAR? 03:36:22 So I need to split a string up into pieces, using regexp-split is fine. But the last piece I need to go back into a buffer, before doing an operation on each of the rest of the pieces. 03:36:33 That sounds like 3 lets in a row... 03:36:45 Riastradh: that would be 1 03:36:49 well, actually 0 03:36:53 because it's not inside of a list 03:37:19 Well, I can put the string "fnord", or the symbol FOOBAR, or anything else, inside of a list. Do you mean `because it *is*not* a list'? 03:37:38 yes 03:37:54 ok, so say I have 1 03:38:02 alone, it has a depth of 0, because it's not in a list 03:38:11 `...because it is not a list' 03:38:15 if it's (list 1) then the depth is one, if it's (list (list 1)) it's 2 03:38:20 (I can put the number 1 inside a list, as you just did there!) 03:38:37 does that make sense? 03:38:56 So, are you telling me that `anything that is not a list has a depth of 0'? 03:40:41 I think it makes sense; I'd just like you to confirm my understanding of what you said. 03:40:55 yes 03:40:59 you are correct 03:41:21 the assumption is that you're passing calc-depth a list though 03:41:23 OK, good! Now tell that to Scheme: `To calculate the depth of an object, if the object is not a list, yield zero; otherwise...' How do you write this in Scheme? 03:41:29 or if you pass it nothing, you get nothing 03:42:39 -!- johnnowak_ [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:43:05 that's what I'm trying to do, but it isn't working very well :/ 03:43:16 -!- ahelon_ [n=krima@unaffiliated/ahelon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:43:20 Well, how do you say `To calculate the depth of an object...'? 03:44:13 (Call the object Arthur, if you wish, or perhaps x, or whatever name suits your fancy. Earlier you called it L, assuming that it was a list, but we can worry later about requiring that the initial input be a list.) 03:45:29 well, I figured out what part of my problem is 03:45:35 I forgot to put in a comparison 03:45:54 I'm just trying to figure out where 03:47:40 OK... So what is the depth of an object that is a list? 03:48:23 phao [n=phao@20158147087.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 03:50:34 each list is a depth of 1 03:50:43 Is that all? 03:50:47 The depth of any list is 1? 03:53:00 Or does the depth of a list also depend on the depths of its elements? 03:56:06 depth of elements 03:56:34 Can you say, in complete sentences, how the depth of a list is related to the depth of its elements? 03:57:19 ok, a list of element has a depth of one, but if one of the elements has a list inside of it, then that adds one to the depth 03:57:50 What if more than one element of the list in question is a list? 03:59:30 then it adds 1 03:59:33 recursively 04:00:33 So suppose I have the list ((A) ((B))). I presume the list (A) should have depth 1, and the list ((B)) should have depth 2. What about the list ((A) ((B)))? Should it be 1 + the depth of (A) + the depth of ((B)) = 1 + 1 + 2 = 4? 04:01:15 it only takes the depth of the deepest list 04:01:39 Aha! So what's `deepest list' (or just `deepest element'), in terms of the depths of the elements? 04:02:09 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180066176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:02:23 the depth of the deepest element is the depth of the list 04:02:54 Really? So the depth of (A) should be 0, because its deepest element (the only element!) is A, whose depth is 0? 04:03:47 so in list ( list (a) list (list b) ) ) the depth of the list would be 3, because b is the deepest element and it's inside 3 lists 04:04:07 a only has a depth of 2 04:05:40 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-238.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Sleep"] 04:07:59 Be careful to distinguish expressions which when evaluated yield lists, from mere lists. (It happens to be the case that expressions are *represented* using lists.) 04:09:19 So, when you write (LIST 1 2 3) into a Scheme evaluator, you will get back a list which is written as (1 2 3). But the lists (LIST 1 2 3) and (1 2 3) -- i.e., the lists which are written with those textual representations -- are very different: one of them has four elements, while the other has three. 04:09:51 The value of the expression (LIST (LIST 'A) (LIST (LIST 'B))) yields the list ((A) ((B))): 04:09:58 rudybot: eval (list (list 'a) (list (list 'b))) 04:09:58 Riastradh: ; Value: ((a) ((b))) 04:10:06 I figured it out! 04:10:07 yarr 04:10:45 But the text (LIST (A) LIST (LIST B))) is lexically invalid, because it has an extra closing round delimiter; and, ignoring that, it will lead to an error unless you have defined variables named A and B. 04:17:11 ;;The calc-depth function takes a list L and returns its depth. The depth of a list is defined as the maximum level of "nesting" of a list. A list with no sublists has a depth of 1; a list with sublists that don't have sublists has a depth of 2; a list with sublists that have sublists that don't have sublists has a depth of 3; and so on. 04:17:16 does that better explain it? 04:17:33 -!- phao [n=phao@20158147087.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:17:59 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180068137.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:00 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:18:59 lispy -> lisps -> lists -> lints -> lines -> liner -> loner -> loser 04:20:13 :( 04:20:25 *AppleBoy* kicks offby1 04:20:29 AppleBoy, how about `the depth of a list is one more than the maximum of the depths of its elements'? 04:20:45 inductive definitions for the win :) 04:21:46 *offby1* rubs his shin 04:22:35 *gnomon* grabs offby1's wallet while he's leaning over 04:23:10 *gnomon* snashots all the credit cards and security numbers, puts them all carefully back in order, and attempts to put the wallet back in offby1's pocket 04:23:30 offby1 pasted "depth" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71729 04:23:47 .oO("snashots"?) 04:23:58 *gnomon* facepalms 04:24:05 Well, there goes that plan - foiled by a typo! 04:24:18 blame it on dynamic abbrevs -- that's what I do 04:24:36 What's a dyn abbrev? 04:24:43 emacs feature, lets you save typing 04:25:06 gnomon: did you recommend "Famous Grouse" whiskey to me? 04:25:14 (might have been 'arcus'. Anyone remember arcus?) 04:25:17 rudybot: seen arcus 04:25:17 offby1: arcus was seen in/on #scheme ten weeks ago, saying "and which registers they munge?", and then arcus was seen quitting in/on 118-92-149-202.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz ten weeks ago 04:25:28 rudybot remembers arcus! 04:25:31 minion: seen arcus? 04:25:32 arcus was last seen 5y6m14d32h43m10s ago, saying "minion: when are you going to support seen?" 04:25:35 cky_ [n=cky@202-74-223-70.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 04:25:36 hmm 04:25:43 So does minion! 04:25:43 you be the judge 04:25:48 I don't believe I did - I believe I mentioned that it was only good for mixing with ginger ale to accompany all-night Scrabble marathons. 04:25:56 well said. 04:26:22 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:26:42 If you've got to drink a bourbon, next time try Woodford Reserve, and failing that, Maker's Mark. 04:26:54 Pretty much everything else is a waste of your time. 04:27:25 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 04:27:44 don't like Maker's Mark; tried it. 04:28:01 had one couple weeks ago that was OK. Can't remember the name, but I think I have a photo of the bottle somewhere. 04:28:23 can equal? be used to compare more than just two items? 04:29:15 rudybot: eval (equal? 1 2 3) 04:29:16 offby1: error: equal?: expects 2 arguments, given 3: 1 2 3 04:29:20 guess not :-) 04:29:22 damn 04:29:26 rudybot: eval (= 1 2 3) 04:29:26 offby1: ; Value: #f 04:29:29 rudybot: eval (< 1 2 3) 04:29:30 offby1: ; Value: #t 04:31:35 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:34:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:54 offby1, ah; well, if you get the chance to try Woodford Reserve, I'd recommend that. Of course, a Balvenie Double-Wood trumps all of the above... 04:36:27 alas, the only photo of a bottle that I have is some gin. 04:36:30 "New Amsterdam". 04:38:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 04:38:56 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 04:38:59 rudybot: eval (< 1 3 2 04:39:00 AppleBoy: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 04:39:03 rudybot: eval (< 1 3 2) 04:39:03 AppleBoy: ; Value: #f 04:39:13 rudybot: eval (< 1 3 f) 04:39:13 AppleBoy: error: reference to undefined identifier: f 04:39:19 rudybot: eval (< 1 3 false) 04:39:19 AppleBoy: error: <: expects type as 3rd argument, given: #f; other arguments were: 1 3 04:40:17 ok, how would you do this? I have to do a function, is-increasing. basically takes a list of numbers and returns true if they're all increasing, or false if at any point it decreases 04:41:01 (define is-increasing <) 04:41:03 next 04:41:04 :) 04:41:35 *gnomon* chuckles 04:42:43 Were hamsters smart as humans am... 04:42:49 he's quick for his age 04:42:49 ...New York would be New Hamsterdam. 04:44:40 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [No route to host] 04:44:44 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:45:39 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:46:50 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 04:47:14 damn, I cannot find that story about Feynman sitting in on one of Doug Hofstadter's lectures. It seems apt here. 04:47:28 (apologies if I said that twice ... le Splitte du Nette) 04:49:33 rudybot: eval (< 1 2 3) 04:49:33 gnomon: ; Value: #t 04:50:01 rudybot: eval (< 1 2 2 3) 04:50:01 gnomon: ; Value: #f 04:50:46 amazing, that quote doesn't appear to be _anywhere_ on the Intarwebs (except for Google books, who apparently scanned the exact edition I have) 04:51:04 offby1, care to type it in? I'm curious about it now 04:51:06 . 04:51:12 I'm just doing that now :) 04:51:32 actually just look at http://tinyurl.com/6eep5n 04:51:56 "Not found"? 04:51:56 :-( 04:51:59 Your tinyurlfu is week. 04:51:59 then wait five minutes 04:53:26 Speaking of rigidity versus fluidity, when I gave a lecture on analogies in the Physics Department at the California Institute of Technology several years ago, one Richard Feynman sat in the front row and bantered with me all the way through the lecture. I considered him a "benevolent heckler", in the sense that he would reliably answer each question "What is to X as 4 is to A?" with the same answer, "4!", and insist that it was a good 04:53:26 answer, probably the best. 04:53:35 ha ha, Riastradh said "week" 04:53:59 rudybot: eval (<) 04:53:59 zbigniew: error: <: expects at least 2 arguments, given 0 04:54:13 offby1, lolwut? I just read that quote a week or two ago, and I swear it was online. 04:54:28 Gee, I thought you would jump on the absurd construction `tinyurlfu'. 04:55:08 gnomon: you'd think 04:55:19 Riastradh: no, it made perfect sense. What does that say about us? 04:55:37 http://topologicalmusings.wordpress.com/2008/06/22/basic-category-theory-i/#comment-434 , but that's not where I read it... 04:55:38 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/6dgp3o 04:55:39 The downside of switching from gnus to gmail is that I can no longer use my cute autosig.scm 04:55:48 (The `week' was added just to throw in a tiny bit more silliness.) 04:56:42 That's going to bother me now, offby1. 04:58:10 offby1, I'm actually having a hard time coming up with a witty answer to your question of what that says about us. Perhaps gnomon can help. 04:58:26 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 04:58:47 offby1, you also typed in that same quote (though with diareses added) on 2008-08-07 at 13:06:39 UTC. 04:59:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 04:59:03 Diaereses, gnomon. 04:59:16 Thpbpbpbpbpbpbt. 04:59:27 *offby1`* 's bowels turn to ice water 04:59:29 gnomon: now that's some scary s***. 04:59:32 I'm still waking up, here. 04:59:36 offby1`, what's scary? 04:59:42 saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 04:59:45 the impending alzheimer's? 04:59:49 that I am repeating myself. 05:00:03 But I doubt I typed it; in my logs there are some weird-ass "smart" quotes. 05:00:09 (Unless that's yet _another_ time I spewed it) 05:00:25 Ha, I'm looking at September 7 05:00:25 Naw, my grep is pretty clear. It's also in the tunes logs at http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/scheme/08.09.07 05:00:27 jeebus 05:00:32 I guess I like that quote :-| 05:00:38 It's a good one :) 05:00:49 oh, you were off by one; it's the same context. 05:01:02 preceded by "somehow this exchange reminds me of Doug Hofstadter" ? 05:01:08 How apropos! 05:01:20 yeah 05:01:30 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:01:33 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 05:01:35 And yes, that's the exchange - offby1 vs. sjaaman vs. XTL in a three-way battle royale. 05:02:03 Is there popcorn? 05:02:19 I was told there was to be punch and pie! 05:02:25 score cards. Can't tell the whiners without a scorecard. 05:02:44 'Whiners'? 05:02:58 does the 7th of the month have some significance? 05:03:04 Actually, I'm more in the mood for ramen right now, or something similarly noodly. Unfortunately, all I have in the vicinity is thirty-two ounces of yoghurt, and a pound of tea. 05:03:17 zbigniew, indeed: it keeps the sixth and the eighth from fighting. 05:03:26 zbigniew, yes, it's when the whole `WWII' thing started, of course. 05:03:45 I desperately need coffee, here. 05:03:50 What kind of tea is it, Riastradh? 05:04:34 I look forward to another Hofstadter mention on Jan 7, then 05:04:56 offby1 annotated #71729 with "nicer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71729#1 05:05:15 gnomon, several varieties. I have some Keemun, Assam, Ceylon, four kinds of Darjeeling (all very good), a good amount of gunpowder tea, and several other varities in much smaller quantities, mostly oolongs. 05:05:32 Riastradh: today I polished off my leftovers: spaghetti in chicken-broth-with-added-miso. 05:05:36 Not bad. (Wife hated it.) 05:05:39 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberries"] 05:07:03 zbigniew, also, of course, in 1944, the whole `WWII' thing ended on a day next to the seventh, which was the sixth of June. It was probably the seventh in some time zone, anyway. 05:11:07 hmm, desert storm started on january 7th 05:13:09 I'm the one, I'm the one: the one they call the seventh son. 05:14:26 Fnord. 05:14:47 Riastradh, I envy your selection of teas! 05:16:24 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:19:19 The Assam is a Harmutty, the Ceylon a Nuwara Eliya, and the Keemun a very smooth, non-smoky Hao Ya A. This is, however, a paltry selection, of much less variety than I wish I had stocked here. 05:22:10 an unassuming little tea, but I think you'll be amused at its presumption 05:24:36 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:44 -!- AppleBoy [n=AppleBoy@about/cooking/nakedchef/apple/tarts] has quit ["I win!"] 05:25:49 *Riastradh* presumes offby1. 05:25:51 See how you like that! 05:27:13 *gnomon* postsumes Riastradh 05:27:16 Turnabout is fair play! 05:27:30 *zbigniew* consumes gnomon 05:27:57 typing /me there, I felt like Cookie Monster 05:28:26 *Riastradh* eviscerates gnomon's swivel chair as it turns about. 05:29:34 Oh, no! Oh, woe! Now on what shall I spin? 05:29:48 *gnomon* looks for a merry-go-round or a lazy susan 05:29:56 Perhaps a dime? Or a soap-box? 05:30:24 (If the soap is wet enough, it will spin nicely.) 05:30:31 Hm. 05:30:38 *gnomon* eyes the rotating microwave platter 05:30:42 What could possibly go wrong? 05:30:58 My tail gets bushy whenever you say that. 05:31:10 Hee hee hee. 05:31:27 man, maybe I better turn around and leave again 05:33:47 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:09 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 05:35:27 offby1`, suffering from connection problems right now? 05:38:07 no kidding 05:38:13 netsplit every 20 minutes or so 05:38:28 Really? I'm not experiencing that at all. 05:38:32 *offby1`* waits for gnomon to offer some sort of pharmaceutical 05:38:53 "Connection Problems? Bad Breath? Unlucky in Love?" 05:39:06 Try herbal viazepam! 05:39:09 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:39:12 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 05:39:15 `Uncomfortable about taking so many different drugs for so many different problems? We have a drug for that!' 05:39:31 xwl [n=user@221.221.152.3] has joined #scheme 05:41:24 la la la 05:41:28 DUM de dum 05:41:34 gnomon: that's right! 05:41:37 dum de dum! 05:41:43 LA LA LA 05:41:53 Yodely hodely 05:42:03 hmm 05:42:05 *Riastradh* drums on gnomon's cranium with a timpani. 05:42:07 offby1: have you read the lambda papers? 05:42:14 i've been asking around here for a few days 05:42:16 not so's I remember 05:42:28 Riastradh: you prolly have read the lambda papers, right? 05:42:31 Ccccccucutcucutt ittititit ootoutuotoutuot, Rririiaiaasstaaatatrraaadaddhadh! 05:42:33 at most I might have glanced at them and said "gol-lee, these are fulla greek letters 'n' stuff" 05:42:46 i wanted to read them, but the typsetting is really outdated 05:42:50 Greek letters? Hardly more than one of them, offby1, and that one's usually spelled out. 05:43:01 Mmmm, chai. 05:43:03 (Yes, I have read them.) 05:43:21 Riastradh: and there's only one version of the pdf, right? there isn't a fancy version 05:43:30 Yes. 05:43:32 sigh 05:43:45 Gee, I thought *I* was picky about typography. 05:43:52 oh well, i guess i should take advantage of my unlimited printing quota at school and just print them out 05:44:25 Riastradh: it's pretty bad - it's photocopy quality of typewriter-style typesetting 05:44:49 and some of the pages are slanted, etc 05:44:52 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 05:45:03 i guess if i print them out, it'll be better 05:45:06 I think I read one of the original ones. 05:45:10 duncanm, so OCR and copy-edit them. 05:45:17 If you care, you can TeX them up. 05:45:19 lotta UPPER CASE identifiers if I recall correctly. 05:45:30 You'll be reading thorough them anyhow; might as well edit as you go. 05:45:39 Riastradh: yeah, i might do that as community service if i can find the time 05:45:59 someone in the UK did that to the Sketchpad paper a while ago, there's a really pretty version now 05:46:28 i've been meaning to learn LaTeX for a while - this ought to be a good way to learn it 05:47:25 Riastradh: should i be reading all of them from the earliest paper and on, or is there a particular one you recommend? 05:47:55 I think it's good to start with the first, but the order after that doesn't matter much. 05:48:25 i scanned through the first one, it's pretty much an introduction to the language, isn't it? 05:48:47 (There are some references to previous papers among them, so they do form a discernible order, but I think that the references aren't very important.) 05:49:42 Yes, it is an introduction to the language, although not just a tutorial on writing Scheme programs. 06:00:38 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 06:02:42 So I figured out why people use IMAP 06:03:23 With IMAP you can request just the email headers, to avoid huge bodies when not needed. Can't do that with POP3. Once you RETR it's all coming over. 06:03:23 Why's that? 06:03:43 i thought it was becuse it was all nicely stored on the servers 06:04:53 Yes, that's a good reason to use IMAP locally, but you want your emails on a computer you control. I mean using it for message retrieval. 06:06:12 synx, I suggest that you read RFC 1939, and in particular section 7/ 06:06:17 I also figured out that net/head is a standard rfc822 parsing module... 06:06:17 -1s/\/$/./ 06:06:49 Bah! I never read about TOP sorry. 06:07:19 I've decided the next lisp should use 'procedure for naming/defining functions, 'anonymous-procedure for lambdas, and 'new-substitution-rule for defining macros 06:07:39 hmm, first 10 lines might not get all the headers... 06:07:46 How do I search the plt mailing list? I have this: http://www.plt-scheme.org/maillist/ and I have this: http://list.cs.brown.edu/pipermail/plt-scheme/ but no apparent easy way to search it 06:07:47 synx, read it again. 06:07:49 also: 'local-variables for 'let, 'local-variables-recursive for 'letrec.... 06:07:50 synx: I prefer IMAP for another reason: POP3 clients tend, by default, to delete messages from the server once you read 'em. I hate that 06:08:16 I don't mind that so much, but it is kind of silly to delete emails when there's still space in the mailbox. 06:08:18 CaptainMorgan: use gmane or google groups 06:08:34 I *highly* recommend gmane. 06:08:34 Just mark them as old, and delete in the order received. 06:08:38 *Highly*. 06:09:20 replication of valuable data is always a good thing, where possible. 06:09:29 ah.. overlooked gmane, thank you 06:11:21 Especially the NNTP gateway. It's blissful. 06:11:37 Gmane + leafnode + local newsreader = \o/ 06:11:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:53 that looks like a vagina 06:12:11 sorry.. it just does 06:12:12 Even if you specify TOP 1 20, it still might miss headers, or get part of the body. Like if the body is a 65536 character long line. 06:12:27 synx, read it again. 06:12:35 It's a guy with his hands raised on either side 06:12:40 ooooh 06:12:53 oops 06:13:10 incubot: sorry 06:13:12 Sorry, compare ',load-fasl essence'. 06:13:26 oh 06:13:26 my bad 06:13:35 gnomon: fine, every protocol can do everything. :p happy? 06:13:59 Hey, I agree with your original point that IMAP trumps POP3 in every metric that I care about. 06:14:15 Claiming that IMAP can transmit headers while POP3 cannot does a disservice to both, though. 06:14:21 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 06:14:28 Sorry. 06:14:47 Though TOP is optional, admittedly. I can't imagine writing a POP server that doesn't support it. 06:14:48 still the mail discussion.. eh? 06:15:19 (define-procedure (fibonacci-sequence-number index) (local-variables-recursive ((accumulator-variable (quoted-form (0))) (... ;; too lazy to finish goofing off 06:16:46 CaptainMorgan, give it a few minutes: the discussion will inevitably hit the point where someone brings up NNTP, then someone else will suggest that all modern phpBB-style message boards and threaded conversations should expose conversations via NNTP, then someone else will mention that NNTP is a stupid push-only protocol without no in-band signalling for indicating which groups should be synched between servers, and 06:17:01 ...then someone will start throwing marshmallows, and we'll all be back where we started. 06:17:18 :) 06:17:55 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:17:56 And then we start to reinvent Freenet. 06:22:38 CaptainMorgan: why you filthy pervert! But gnomon's the one who's drawing the dirty pictures! 06:23:01 offby1, yep, I just call them like I see them. 06:23:11 lol 06:27:44 wow.... but gmane really is \o/ 06:33:00 It really, really is. 06:33:36 I  it dearly. 06:33:49    06:33:53    06:33:55         06:33:58       06:34:02 thank you. 06:34:08 *gnomon* guffaws 06:34:21 takes you back to 1989, don't it? 06:34:35 How long did you spend writing that out!? 06:34:42 "figlet Pervert!" 06:35:25 one of the very first programs I ever wrote -- in probably 1975 -- was basically that ... in Basic-Plus 06:35:37 had a little font database built in and everything 06:35:37 Bahahahah! 06:40:18 bravo offby1 06:40:47 Any idea how I can debug net/imap? It's making me connect via SSL, so I can't just sniff packets to see what's up. 06:41:04 I guess just make a local copy of the library, and add display statements. 06:41:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQg4LquY0uU <-- anyone else here worship alan kay? 06:42:26 i can't help but wonder where the heck all the great advancements in computer sciecne went .... 06:42:39 like sketchpad, writing original OSes, why is everything today just incremental work? 06:42:48 Look where PHP went, then look the other way. 06:42:50 It's because of patent law. 06:42:58 that shouldn't explain research tough 06:43:04 explain research *though* in academia ... 06:43:21 Only private companies do research these days. 06:43:22 Mostly rather. 06:43:30 err, there are universities 06:43:32 There are a couple of neat university projects though. 06:44:04 Universities are generally pretty out of date. MIT can keep up I think. 06:44:13 They're as corporate as they come though. 06:44:28 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:29 It's because of..: a) patent law, b) copyright law, c) fur'ners, d) the low-hanging fruit have already been picked, e) Moore's law massively reduces the ROI of basic research, f) kids these days with their loud hair and long music... 06:44:53 When nobody is allowed to share ideas anymore, ideas stagnate. It's not incremental, it's parallel. Everyone has to sit there reinventing the wheel for their particular shop and hoping they don't get caught. 06:44:53 synx: what's your technical background? 06:45:11 synx: are you referring to companies or universities? 06:45:27 Not much of a difference *grumbles* 06:45:46 do we really need more OS's? outside of stuff like OS's written in type safe languages that are more reliable, I don't see the point. 06:45:51 My technical background isn't very stellar. Just stuff I studied on my own pretty much. 06:46:23 synx, that's nonsense. Nobody forced PHP, Perl, Ruby et al ignore thirty years of PL research; nobody forced Apple and Microsoft to ignore fifteen years of research on orthogonally persistent systems; nobody forced Symbian and Blackberry to ignore capability systems in favour of sandboxed VMs for on-device extensibility. 06:46:24 I don't want a new OS. I want a Usenet that's cheap and hard to take down. 06:46:44 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.152.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:14 gnomon: No they're the ones forcing us. They have to ignore years of research, so they can claim it as their private property and gain money at the cost of knowledge. 06:47:40 I'm sorry to have to point out that you're talking out of your ass, there. 06:48:03 Well maybe. 06:48:20 You did point out that I didn't know about the TOP statement after all. 06:48:42 I mean, I understand the sentiment, and I can sympathize with it; but IP law is not sufficient to explain why the enormous body of public comp sci research is mostly ignored by industry. 06:48:50 But you don't think stuff like DirectX had any purpose other than claiming a greater portion of the market? 06:49:06 It's not that simple. 06:49:37 At least it was a big factor? 06:49:49 Arguing that point is off-topic for this channel, though, and I'm a bit too close to the politics of graphics APIs right now to argue about them objectively. 06:50:55 Sorry for speaking out of turn. It does upset me when companies ignore research and push their own private junk, and succeed at it. 06:51:02 .NET... 06:51:49 what private research did the whole many language, one VM thing? 06:51:51 err 06:51:53 academic research 06:51:56 Yeah, but they succeeded in many ways, OpenGL actually woke up, and hardware guys got to push the limits 06:52:31 MS funded Haskell 06:52:41 And Wirth. 06:52:48 hah, Wirth 06:52:49 And F#, and LINQ. 06:52:50 they fund a lot of stuff 06:53:10 hmm, if anyone here is the opportunity to do a CS Phd at berkeley. what would you do? do it? do a stratup? move to bioengineering? 06:53:11 Adamant, PL/I. 06:53:26 hml, that depends on your goal. 06:54:13 PhD's are for fun, or becoming a prof 06:54:23 or rarely, a private researcher 06:54:47 the sweet spot for financial rewards with working for someone else is Master's 06:54:59 I'm still waiting for the first CS PhD to break into a successful rap career. 06:55:06 for startup it doesn't matter 06:55:19 gnomon: physicists have done it, look at MC Hawking 06:55:33 Quite; that's why I'm waiting for CS to catch up. 06:56:09 bioengineering I have no clue about 06:56:34 I just know bioengineering equipment keeps getting cheaper and is getting to the point serious hobbyists can afford it 06:57:07 Adamant: to do what with? 06:57:14 Bah. All the hobbyists I know are goofy, not serious. 06:57:29 leppie: biohacking, creating a plague to end life as we know it 06:57:32 leppie: mad science, obviously 06:57:36 probably some other stuff 06:57:48 home-grown implants :p 06:58:03 they actually grew the first organ in a lab 06:58:05 trachea 06:58:08 I gotta say it would be pretty awesome to watch the world just implode 06:58:13 haven't implanted it yet 06:58:14 no 06:58:17 it would not 06:58:29 yes it would, because that would mean it was hollow 06:58:35 ah 06:58:44 I thought you meant the death of all life 06:58:47 that would suck 06:58:56 hollow earths are cool though 06:58:57 Adamant: i was thinking more along the line of having some silicon trees in the backyard :) 06:59:14 silicon.... or silicone? 06:59:31 leppie: I think we're a ways away from designing new non-DNA/RNA based species 06:59:32 whatever :p 06:59:40 (also, bahahaha, this perl article on slashdot is tagged "ruby") 07:04:24 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:06:37 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 07:09:47 ugh... 07:09:58 (I-forget 2) -> '(0 1 2) 07:11:02 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 07:15:12 iota, right. 07:15:52 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 07:18:20 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:28 i like iota 07:22:12 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 values) 07:22:13 offby1`: ; Value: (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) 07:22:16 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 add1) 07:22:17 offby1`: ; Value: (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) 07:22:27 rudybot: eval (build-list 10 (compose add1 (lambda (x) (* 2 x)))) 07:22:28 offby1`: ; Value: (1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 19) 07:22:35 etc. 07:27:47 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 07:32:06 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:26 lisp is awesome; lisp has 'funcall' in addition to apply; why doesn't scheme have funcall? 07:37:06 because it's a Lisp-1 07:37:12 i.e., there's no need for it. 07:37:35 es there is; (apply + '(1 2 3 4 5)) (funcall + 1 2 3 4 5) 07:37:43 in funcall, the args is 'inline' in apply, it's not 07:38:48 oh. 07:39:07 well, why not just write (+ 1 2 3 4 5) ? 07:41:23 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:41:49 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:45:08 you can write a macro for that 07:45:23 anyone have sicp as a pdf or ps? 07:45:34 i perfere reading docs in evine/xpdf ... as opposed to mozilla 07:46:11 *evince* 07:46:36 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:48:04 *wince* 07:48:32 rudybot: eval (let ((plus +)) (plus 1 2 3 4 5)) 07:48:32 offby1`: ; Value: 15 07:48:58 rudybot: eval (define (funcall proc . args) (apply proc args)) 07:49:07 rudybot: eval (funcall + 1 2 3 4 5) 07:49:07 offby1`: ; Value: 15 07:49:14 there ya go 07:55:08 hml: I have a pdf. Give me an address and I'll zap it to you. 08:01:44 Daemmerung: just found one online, thanks though :-) 08:03:47 olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 08:11:21 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 08:30:00 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-70.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 08:48:29 incubot: gordon ramsay is now a meme 08:48:32 Seems the Gordon Sine Equation could apply. 08:49:26 man, every time I read the preface to sicp 08:49:27 I get inspired 08:49:32 and want to spend up all night coding 08:51:07 then get off irc 08:51:26 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 08:51:57 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 08:52:10 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:29 -!- Vaeshir_ [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:50 Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:54:39 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05596E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:11:24 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:13:47 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:23:54 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 09:29:48 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.199.108] has joined #scheme 09:29:59 hml: nice; you should be inspired to code for at least ten years, though; nights are cheap. 09:32:19 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-24-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 09:33:36 jah [n=jah@110.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 09:34:04 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:40:08 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-3-240.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:49:23 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:14:06 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 10:14:35 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:04 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 10:20:35 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 10:21:29 -!- Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:21:43 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 10:24:07 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-184-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:25:05 galactus [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-53bde013f067180e] has joined #scheme 10:25:28 -!- galactus [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-53bde013f067180e] has left #scheme 10:33:15 waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-31cc31ccf55abd22] has joined #scheme 10:41:23 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:44:53 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 10:47:59 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:49:08 is the HTDP site down for anyone else? 10:51:31 http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/htdp.org 10:51:55 Just sayin'. 10:52:28 nice took 10:52:31 *tool 10:52:42 doesn't help much though 10:53:00 looks like the server is up but throws up a blank page 10:55:24 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 10:55:33 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:57:51 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:58:09 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 11:02:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 11:08:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-70.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:08 Vaeshir [n=zane@c-66-31-28-121.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:10:49 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:59 ok, just read on the PLT mailing list, Brown had a meltdown sorta according to Shriram 11:18:10 so I guess its for everyone 11:21:39 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has joined #scheme 11:22:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:23:13 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["the young soldier fart his brother looked at each other, fart both knew that with love, fart truth, fart courage both would e] 11:23:23 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.199.108] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:20 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:28:10 -!- jah [n=jah@110.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 11:30:28 iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179068061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:33:22 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.116.191] has joined #scheme 11:37:59 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.116.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:32 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.116.191] has joined #scheme 11:45:43 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p4FC17818.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:54:17 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:05 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:22 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 12:02:28 -!- waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-31cc31ccf55abd22] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:13:00 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:13:16 saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 12:27:24 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 12:27:27 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 12:37:25 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 12:37:48 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:22 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:53 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 12:49:32 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:24 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [] 12:53:47 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 12:53:58 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 13:01:20 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 13:01:31 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:05:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:14:09 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:17:48 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p4FC17818.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 13:19:52 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:20:11 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:24:24 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:25:30 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:25:46 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:26:24 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:27:47 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@207.Red-81-37-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:27:52 hi 13:29:44 hi nvteighen 13:30:04 any interesting topic here? 13:30:13 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:37 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:30:56 synthasee [n=synthase@c-68-63-76-191.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:31:18 is that a trick question? 13:32:37 no, I wondered if there was something interesting here today 13:33:15 I usually don't hang on this channel, but other days there have been nice chats here 13:37:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:38:37 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:06 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has joined #scheme 13:39:49 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 13:40:17 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:40:33 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:43:05 nobody here but us zombie processes. 13:43:15 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 13:43:29 bad... 13:43:31 http://www.latorra.org/?p=55 13:46:08 sam___ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 13:46:14 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:17 0_o 13:46:23 what's the world coming to 13:46:31 to a fork? 13:46:35 why, in my day, there wouldn't be enough geeks to warrant production of a t-shirt like that 13:46:39 *offby1* slaps nvteighen upside the haid 13:46:51 :) 13:47:36 offby1, I find the fact that it exists a little bit comforting! 13:47:39 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:47:52 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 13:47:53 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:48:00 gypsy woman told my mom / I was gonna be a nerd 13:49:00 oh, wait; that t-shirt is a one-off 13:49:03 *offby1* stands down 13:49:40 I see he got the PID/PPID relationship right. But of course he would. 13:49:47 Reminds me of Randall Munro 13:50:56 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:12 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:59:00 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:59:14 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:02:23 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:38 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:03:17 Blast it, sibling, answer your mobile comms radio so I can figure out if we're having dim sum this morning. 14:03:24 iion_tichy1 [n=Bjoern@g225040096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 14:05:09 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@207.Red-81-37-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 14:05:56 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:11 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:08:17 gnomon: I'm flopsymopsy 14:08:24 no idea where I got the dumb-ass name 14:08:46 *gasp* 14:08:50 *offby1* has revealed his secret 14:08:57 I assume "offby1" had long since been taken 14:09:03 *gnomon* guffaws 14:09:13 Hahahahaha! 14:09:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0BDA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:22 That's hilarious for a great many reasons. 14:09:22 had ya fooled, eh? 14:09:56 Had me puzzled, that's fer certain! 14:10:05 You follow Sacha Chua, too? 14:10:15 yep 14:10:26 basically a buncha Emacs nerds 14:10:28 She used to work two or three blocks from my old office, which is why I thought you might have been someone local. 14:10:32 ha 14:10:37 *offby1* cackles evillly 14:10:41 "All part of my plan" 14:10:53 damn, the whole world is in Ottawa ... or Toronto 14:11:11 You should come by sometime! 14:11:12 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 14:11:20 You can check in any time you like. 14:11:27 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:12:28 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:13:09 I know for sure: if I'm ever in the area I have a pile of people to visit 14:13:22 s/people/IRC denizens/ 14:13:24 almost the same thing 14:13:44 Somewhat. You might find yourself dropping in on a server cage rather than a living room. 14:14:04 *gnomon* wonders if sarahbot is ever coming back 14:14:53 who needs sarahbot? 14:14:55 rudybot: quote 14:14:56 offby1: Let's swap without a temporary. 14:15:18 incubot: dyslexic 14:15:20 you are rather.... dyslexic ..... 14:16:45 Not for utility! Just for nostalgia. 14:17:14 benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 14:17:36 minion: chant 14:17:36 MORE GUI 14:17:38 "Practical Aesthetics" 14:17:48 this is one of the more bot-heavy channels, now that I think about it. 14:18:07 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 14:18:24 rudy, incu, minion, Riastradh - what other bots are there around here? 14:18:32 :) 14:18:34 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:18:46 -!- iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179068061.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:21 "We are all meat puppets" 14:30:48 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-184-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:15 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:33:46 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:15 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05596E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:40 ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-224-119.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #scheme 14:59:47 olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #scheme 15:00:33 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:01:04 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:01:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:58 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFE289.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:02:29 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:59 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:11:01 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:11:02 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.116.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:27 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:51 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:30:14 benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 15:35:21 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #scheme 15:42:13 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 15:45:47 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:54 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:47:22 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 15:54:18 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:02:27 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 16:03:03 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:10:31 phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has joined #scheme 16:11:35 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-248.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 16:15:02 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:27:04 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 16:30:38 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:30:41 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 16:33:00 jah [n=jah@110.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 16:49:03 rudybot: yow 16:56:47 -!- jah [n=jah@110.56.76-86.rev.gaoland.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:57:47 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 17:00:41 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:01:53 rudybot no speak no yow. 17:02:10 he's a _minimal_ bot. What part of "minimal" don't you understand?! 17:02:17 *offby1* flails around 17:13:41 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:13:50 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:15:46 incubot: maximize rudybot! 17:15:48 Me too, but with Ren & Stimpy you can never be too sure because the characters are always drawn differently -- deliberately, to maximize laugh efficiency. 17:16:37 incubot: you are stupid and yo mama has weird hair. 17:16:39 When Mama Emacs ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. 17:16:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:16:59 incubot: gnumama? 17:17:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:17:56 *sladegen* chickles eveelli. 17:19:17 incubot: pervert 17:19:20 We will now have much more time to pervert rudybot while your away 17:19:48 *gasp* 17:19:53 who said that! I want their names 17:20:02 \o/ 17:20:12 is that comparable to: \0/ ? 17:20:26 \./ 17:20:29 lol 17:21:27 \?_ he did it! 17:23:45 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:23:45 /o\ (to me anyway) means: I cringe 17:23:54 now: 17:23:56 \o/ 17:23:57 /~\ 17:24:05 means: happy kilt-wearing guy 17:24:20 means: happy unexploded Scotsman 17:28:04 and how does exploded scotsman look like? 17:30:28 . . . 17:30:40   17:30:42   17:30:45     17:30:47      17:30:52 Ach! 17:32:43 /exec cat /dev/urandom 17:35:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:44:17 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 17:48:49 gnomon, if I were to check in to Toronto, could I check back out into the US, or should I instantly become a terrorist by association? 17:55:17 Riastradh, the latter, I think. 17:55:36 I mean, uhhhh, zzzzzzzz. 17:56:09 Well, actually, I probably have a circumvention device on my file system anyway, so I guess it's too late. 17:56:19 That's it. Yer hosed. 17:56:21 (M-x rot13-region) 17:58:15 (...oh, and software with that I can watch DVDs that I legitimately shelled out cold, hard (or, well, not really `hard', but solid, anyway), green fabric cash for. That one will really get me.) 17:58:46 Not in Canuckistania, it won't! 17:59:00 What with parliament prorogued until January, you're safe until at least then. 17:59:05 ...the wankers. 17:59:48 I must say that, all DMCA and PATRIOT Act absurdity aside, I do find some small comfort in having a government that at least claims to have a separation of powers and a written constitution. 18:00:17 Whereas we have a prime minister who can dodge a vote of non-confidence by asking the speaker of the house for a time-out. 18:00:19 I mean, the governor-general, appointed by the queen, proroguing parliament so that they can't recall the prime minister? 18:00:21 AND THEN GETTING IT 18:00:41 Not to put too fine a point on it, the whole mess is fucking embarassing. 18:02:02 I should also mention that my disgust at the current situation (and the lead-up to it, which is about two years of completely dysfunctional government because the opposition parties refuse to concentrate on anything other than stonewalling the government at every opportunity) is completely orthogonal to my political views. 18:02:21 At least this whole mess is retarding the eventual reintroduction of Bill C-61. 18:02:41 Your DVD player software is safe up in the wildern northlands. You only have to worry about your return path! That's something. 18:03:32 dysfunctional government can be a good thing 18:03:47 A bit less so when s/dys/non/ 18:05:48 incubot: yow 18:06:17 So, how 'bout kitten porn? Is that legal in Canada, or are the canucks going the way of the ozzies across the Pacific and the crumpet monkeys across the Atlantic? 18:07:10 "Crumpet monkeys"? 18:07:23 Frrrrreedom-eatin' crumpet monkeys. 18:07:41 How does one eat freedom? 18:08:04 Open mouth, insert freedom, masticate, swallow, in that order. 18:08:05 Freely. 18:08:19 Ah silly me, sorry. 18:08:52 minion: yow 18:08:53 what's up? 18:09:28 damianc [n=damian@unaffiliated/dconway] has joined #scheme 18:09:52 Hmm, I'm drawing a blank on well-known slang terms for Englishmen. 18:10:00 Limeys? 18:10:08 Limey, there we go! That's what a crumpet monkey is. 18:10:09 That's rather pejorative, I think. 18:10:28 Poms. 18:10:54 Limey is better than scurvey, i wouldn't take it as an insult 18:11:32 gnomon, anyway, so are the canucks following the ozzies and crumpet monkeys, and Andrew Cuomo, or is kitten porn legal in Canuckistan? 18:11:47 Honestly, I'm not too sure about that. 18:11:50 -!- pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.6 -- Are we there yet?"] 18:12:11 Also: kitten porn?! Whatchoo talking 'bout, Willis? 18:12:17 specbot: yow 18:13:08 Maybe `legal' is the wrong word, but are the ISPs jumping up and down to filter and censor and block and impede and inhibit and hinder all possible bits that might represent kittens in unseemly postures, as the UK and Australian governments and ISPs are pushing for? 18:14:07 (Such as, for example, the recent UK ISPs vs Wikipedia event, which has transpired on Slashdot.) 18:14:19 gnomon: yow 18:14:55 Not to the best of my knowledge, no. The broadband situation up here is pretty dire, though (wireless even more so!): the current worry is whether backhaul owners are allowed to traffic-shape downstream resellers outside the bounds of their contracts. Current CRTC decisions seem to indicate that they may. 18:15:06 This is certainly a VIOLENT PICKLE! 18:16:28 Or what about terms of service? Is it a federal crime (or whatever your analogue thereof is) to be bored by the terms of service on MySpace? 18:17:12 Ah, that; not yet. 18:17:22 Give it another few months, though. 18:17:31 gnomon: http://cuteoverload.com 18:17:40 not entirely kitten-specific, but perhaps 65% 18:18:28 1, 2, 3, 4 -- I declare a kittenwar.com 18:19:48 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 18:31:00 In drscheme, how do you clear out whitespace before and/or after the cursor? Like if I want to delete the current empty line, but it's auto-tabbed a bunch of spaces. 18:32:04 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:18 pbusser2 [n=peter@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 18:32:20 Currently I have to Ctrl-Home, Backspace, Backspace, which is annoying, and doesn't work if I want to delete whitespace following useful stuff. Normally I can't quickly move to the "start of whitespace" or "end of whitespace" and have to diddle around a bit to select it right. 18:32:20 Moin! 18:32:29 M-space 18:34:38 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 18:35:04 Aw shoot that only works as Esc, space. Darn window manager. Thanks Daemmerung! 18:36:00 (I don't know how Emacs doesn't get snagged on the WM when doing that.) 18:38:25 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:38:41 Easy enough to move it to the Super key in xfce's config. 18:40:59 synx: no idea. I never use DrScheme for editing 18:41:15 Daemmerung: depends on the wm. 18:41:23 Not so easy on Windows. But somehow Emacs doesn't trip over that, whereas DrScheme-- like pretty much any Windows thing I'd ever write-- does. 18:41:35 offby1: Windows EXPLORAR.EXE 18:41:46 I seem to recall I use M-SPC happily on Windows. 18:42:02 As do I. In Emacs. Not in DrScheme. 18:42:24 Ah. The one keybinding that I cannot type in Emacs is M-TAB (since the wm indeed steals that), but happily there's an equivalent handy: M-C-i 18:42:27 Yeah you can't customize Windows that way I don't think. 18:43:09 I dare y'all to write a simple "queue" module that is a) elegant; and b) functional (i.e., doesn't use mutation) 18:43:13 can't figure out how to do it 18:44:52 foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 18:46:42 reverse ain't elegant, I take it. 18:52:35 nah, too slow 18:52:47 ideally inserting and deleting would be constant-time 18:53:15 choas [n=lars@p5B0DE2C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:22 Danny Yoo has a clever thing that uses PLT's built-in async channels, which is probably how I'd do it if I actually needed a queue and didn't care about it being functional. 18:54:50 Emacs on Windows has a huge code investment in making things like M-space work. It still has some weird problems, for example, in my setup hitting the start key doesn't pop up the Windows start menu. 18:55:07 DrScheme shouldn't do such games, of course... 18:55:52 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:57:19 Ah. Hitting the start key on my Win box gives me L-ALT (yay remapping), so I never see that. 18:58:44 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:59:05 You remapped in Emacs, I assume...? 18:59:51 No, sub Windows in the keymapper. (the Win equiv of xmodmap) 19:00:29 Ah. 19:00:40 The more ALTs and CTLs I have, the more likely I am to hit something resembling a control sequence when flailing at the keyboard. 19:01:40 found it - HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout 19:02:18 In Emacs, there's some black magic around `w32-register-hot-key' 19:02:45 dsmith [i=h6iiwa9o@cpe-71-74-230-225.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:02:56 I did not know that. 19:03:55 Yeah, it's pretty low level about all of this -- which is fine only for Emacs, given what people will want it to do... 19:07:17 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:45 kniu [n=kniu@OLAWDYME.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:08:45 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 19:09:20 -!- foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:12 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.183] has joined #scheme 19:11:52 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 19:16:11 Hmm 19:18:09 I'm doing a transformation, taking (A B C) and turning it into (A 42 C) for instance. But I also need to return the value B. Am currently having to have a dummy variable that I set! to whatever B is, but it's kind of klunky... (set! alias newalias) and such. 19:19:15 (let-values ([(newalias newvalue) (get-alias value)]) (set! alias newalias) newvalue))] instead of just (get-newvalue value) 19:19:25 I don't know of a more elegant way to get the alias out of there though. 19:19:39 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-48-245.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:20:27 foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:25:16 -!- saccade__ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:25:43 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 19:26:46 -!- foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:05 foof [n=user@78-20-254-149.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 19:31:19 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-24-100.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:28 peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:32:55 synx, can you paste the code? 19:33:09 synx, can you elaborate without obscuring your problem under a cover of meaningless substitutions such as A, 42, B, and C? 19:33:26 jonrafkind: working on it 19:33:30 Riastradh: :p 19:35:36 Deformati [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:35:40 -!- Deformative [n=joe@c-68-62-76-160.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:36:22 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 19:36:46 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 19:37:55 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/tests/values-spaghetti.ss 19:38:45 Can you please present Scheme code, not HTML code? 19:38:47 I think I must be misunderstanding how to use multiple values in the first place... 19:39:05 click download 19:39:12 https://synx.us.to/code/tests/values-spaghetti.ss 19:40:04 The code works, it's just... 19:40:28 so you want to replace the 3 with 4 and return the list and 3? 19:41:09 The 3 with 42, and return 3 + 1, in this example. 19:41:20 oh right ok 19:41:49 ejs2 [n=eugen@92.49.239.221] has joined #scheme 19:42:16 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:42:21 OK, `thingy' isn ot any better. 19:42:23 `is not' 19:42:35 In my less functional program it's "replace address with munged address", and return "alias detected therein". 19:42:38 you test each value in the original list and produce two lists, one with the values replaced and the other with the original values 19:42:48 the second list should have #f for values that werent replaced, then just filter them 19:43:07 or you could leave in the #f's if you want exact position matches 19:43:19 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:44:12 synx, multiple return values are a red herring here. 19:44:39 I can only use one of the replaced values in the protocol. Ideally the email wouldn't be allowed to have two, but I don't want to assume that. 19:44:44 -!- sam___ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:44:51 -!- ltsampros [n=gaghiel@kelly.physics.upatras.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:44:52 synx, first of all, in GET-VALUES-AND-THINGY, the second value returned may be #F even if every item in the list matches and is not #F. 19:44:54 ltsampros [n=gaghiel@kelly.physics.upatras.gr] has joined #scheme 19:45:03 synx, that is, the assignments to THINGY may have no effect. 19:45:16 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 19:45:20 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:25 Yeah I was wondering about that... it seems to work though. 19:45:33 It works because you're lucky right now. 19:45:39 When the moon shifts phases, you might be unlucky and get #F. 19:46:19 Right, so once I've extracted the thingy, how do I preserve it for higher level logic, while still transforming the list? 19:46:26 higher scope I mean... 19:47:42 SET!, or a similar side effect, is the only way if you insist on using MAP, rather than writing your own loop to reflect your own control flow. 19:48:18 hmm, so the use of map might be what's tripping me up? 19:48:22 But if you use a side effect, you must indicate to Scheme the order in which the side effect matters. 19:48:36 Right now you're telling Scheme that it doesn't matter whether it evaluates VALUES, the call to MAP, or the reference to THINGY first. 19:48:47 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 19:48:51 Since the call to MAP will have side effects that alter the value of THINGY, this is presumably not what you want. 19:49:16 I don't really need to do anything odd on reaching the end of the list, just a 1:1 mapping. 19:49:46 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 19:49:47 Hmmm? Did I say something about `anything odd on reaching the end of the list'? 19:50:25 It's just I was tired of doing (let loop (list ...) (when (not (empty? list)) (begin xyz (loop (cdr list))))) instead of just (map xyz list). 19:50:44 Now why would you use MAP for that idiom? 19:51:11 In any case, do you see what is wrong with the expression (VALUES (MAP ...) THINGY)? 19:51:26 I already know the loop will terminate when the list is empty, and to do the next iteration on the rest of the list, and to operate on the car of the list each iteration. map does that all implicitly. 19:51:52 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-224-119.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:30 oh also consing the elements back together, eh. map does that too. 19:53:19 I would like to map list A to list B, so I use map. During the mapping though, it discovers important fact C that I need also returned, in addition to list B. 19:54:08 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:23 That's perfectly legitimate, provided that you don't care in which order the side effects during the MAP occur. But presumably you want all those effects to happen *before* you refer to the value of THINGY to return. 19:54:33 I see what is wrong with the expression (values (... (set! thingy ...) ...) thingy). thingy returned might not reflect what it was set to, if values evaluated the second argument first. 19:54:55 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:05 If *Scheme* evaluates the second argument first. The procedure VALUES does not choose in what order to evaluate the subexpressions of the combination. 19:55:33 well okay, but still it's not a good thing to depend on. 19:55:43 That's right. 19:56:24 I could fix that, but it still is using the set! mutator, and looking spaghettiish in general. hmm... 19:56:47 If you want to avoid SET!, you must avoid MAP, because MAP provides no way to transmit the information you want to transmit. 19:57:28 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 19:57:31 That's true... 19:59:55 phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has joined #scheme 20:04:39 -!- dsmith [i=h6iiwa9o@cpe-71-74-230-225.neo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:11:11 peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:07 peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:17:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 20:23:42 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:11 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-67-186-250-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:24:45 -!- peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:25:05 peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:32 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:33 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:27:53 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:31:46 -!- peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:32:56 I wonder if anything does. For now I guess I'll just have to use set! and try to factor it out. 20:41:17 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 20:43:27 ...as I said, you will have to produce your own loop. You can use FOLD (although personally I prefer to avoid it except in special circumstances), or perhaps you want to build a MAP-FOLD, or perhaps it would be clearest to write an explicit loop. 20:44:14 why are you saying the identifiers in uppercase? 20:44:46 To distinguish them from English words. 20:44:57 oh 20:45:08 I think of them as english words :P 20:55:04 sudvabalis [n=karkius1@78-62-75-163.static.zebra.lt] has joined #scheme 20:55:06 help me surprise my girlfreind, watch this video on youtube, thanx! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHsitCVMbgE 20:55:07 -!- sudvabalis [n=karkius1@78-62-75-163.static.zebra.lt] has left #scheme 20:55:15 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:42 i hope it's the SICP video lectures and he's dating Sussman 20:59:37 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 21:00:22 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 21:01:08 wow, using keyword arguments in mzscheme slows things down by orders of magntitude 21:01:42 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit ["leaving"] 21:03:24 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 21:07:38 What are you observing? 21:09:23 me? the time it takes to run a program that uses keyword arguments 21:11:04 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 21:11:21 how specific... 21:11:48 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 21:12:04 it was as specific as the question was 21:12:54 Yes: it gave us just as much information as we had before the question. I wonder why we ask questions, then. 21:13:38 no offense to Daemmerung but the real point is "I wonder why we ask useless questions" 21:13:57 maybe vague is a better word 21:14:07 Riastradh, you are the king of being annoyed with vague questions! 21:14:07 Before I used keyword arguments, I used both hands to type m-z-s-c-h-e-m-e. Now that I use keyword arguments, I'm also ripping my collection of Mozart CDs and eating a greasy bacon-and-egg sandwich. The results are clear: Pepsi wins the taste challenge. 21:14:28 i agree 21:14:43 So, jonrafkind, what might be a more useful question that someone aside from yourself could ask about what prompted your remark? 21:15:06 "what was the program doing" or "how are you using keyword arguments" 21:15:07 All that I can think of is `What are you observing that prompted your remark?'. 21:15:21 to that question I would give my original answer 21:15:28 I was observing a program.. obviously 21:15:58 wow, re-ripping a Mozart CD smeared with greasy bacon-and-egg fingerprings slows things down by orders of magnitude 21:16:11 fingerprints, too 21:16:15 I could, I suppose, also ask by what paths through neurons electrochemical signals were being routed through your brain, which might be related to your remark, but which -- I think you'll agree -- a much more useless question. 21:16:25 the whole story is I am writing a ruby -> scheme compiler and used keyword arguments to pass the anonymous lambda around. i was testing fibonacci 21:16:47 well, that only took 15 minutes 21:17:02 yes, but now its a meta-argument 21:17:08 zbigniew, your turn to ask the next question now! 21:17:13 Let's see how long we can drag this out. 21:17:36 comparing the time taken for the meta-argument to the time taken to get the answer for the original argument isn't fair 21:18:22 do the Mozart CDs have DRM? 21:18:24 really, my original response was sarcastic. a proper response should have been "what do you mean?" 21:18:57 zbigniew: only on track 12 (3rd mvmt of K 454), apparently. 21:19:52 either DRM or a nice greasy thumbprint. Unwilling to interrupt the re-rip to check. 21:20:06 Sounds more like DBM (Digital Bacon Management) to me. 21:20:13 Heh. 21:20:24 Easy to confuse, I know -- B <-> R. 21:20:27 ah, I have that album. run a green marker around the outside and switch away from keyword arguments and it should fix the issue 21:20:34 digital-buccal manipulation. 21:21:33 you probably forgot to go left 255 times in the Lost Woods as well, you n00b 21:21:43 jonrafkind: Why are you wrting a ruby->scheme compiler? 21:21:55 Can't use a green marker. WINDOWS, duh! 21:22:00 no particular reason, I just thought it would be fun 21:22:04 grettke: it's an exercise in testing out keyword arguments 21:22:08 that too 21:22:54 does writing a ruby interpreter in scheme sound fun? 21:23:06 A mere 716 frames remaining... soon, the Allegretto of the B flat major violin sonata will be mine. Oh, yes. It will be mine. 21:23:18 i dunno, does scaling the alps sound fun? how is that related to what im doing? 21:23:57 Other than the fact that ruby and scheme are involved there is no relation. Jon, not everything is about you. 21:24:15 I thought you were trying to draw some parallel there 21:24:21 sowwy :( 21:24:27 But what about MY wants? What about MY needs?? 21:24:37 Daemmerung, it will be yours only until Disney retroactively alters the birth date of Mickey Mouse to precede the classical period, and thereby retroactively claim copyright on all Western music for the past three hundred years. 21:24:38 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.116.191] has joined #scheme 21:24:59 grettke, are you asking in general to everyone if writing a ruby interpreter in scheme would be fun? 21:25:09 *grettke* nods 21:25:25 its the funnest 21:26:04 Riastradh, I shall fight on the beaches; I shall fight on the landing grounds; I will never surrender. 21:26:31 There's always plainchant, I s'pose. 21:26:40 *Daemmerung* surrenders 21:26:57 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.216] has joined #scheme 21:28:12 -!- iion_tichy1 [n=Bjoern@g225040096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #scheme 21:31:16 But it's all OK. You can still watch _It's a Wonderful Life_ and _Night of the Living Dead_ whenever you like (provided you can still operate video and audio devices without a fish licence and full surveillance). 21:31:30 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-066-233-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:00 -!- mike is now known as Guest36969 21:33:41 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:46:30 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.183] has quit ["later"] 21:48:52 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.216] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:52:26 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-67-186-250-110.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:55:23 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:25 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 22:03:57 -!- Guest36969 [n=mike@dslb-088-066-233-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:10 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DE2C8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:10:13 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 22:14:35 It's just I was tired of doing (let loop (list ...) (when (not (empty? list)) (begin xyz (loop (cdr list))))) instead of just (map xyz list). 22:14:44 sounds like a job for an iterator! 22:18:35 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:13 -!- roconnor [n=roconnor@bsjrmb01dc1-246-242.dynamic.mts.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:21:30 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 22:21:46 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-200-238.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:23:46 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@92.49.239.221] has left #scheme 22:25:17 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:26:18 Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 22:30:30 -!- kniu [n=kniu@OLAWDYME.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:32:42 roconnor [n=roconnor@bsjrmb01dc1-246-242.dynamic.mts.net] has joined #scheme 22:38:41 zbigniew: west, north, west, south, west? 22:41:36 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 22:42:30 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:45:04 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-311358.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:46:24 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 22:46:37 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 22:47:03 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 22:47:07 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:59:09 klutometis: the zelda discovery theme sounds 23:04:02 dudrenov [n=user@c-69-181-124-154.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:08:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:11:59 augustbankr_ [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:12:20 -!- augustbankr_ [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:30 augustbankr_ [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:14:25 -!- augustbankr_ [n=animesh@68-116-166-32.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has left #scheme 23:27:57 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:48 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:30:40 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:31:42 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:33:15 saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has joined #scheme 23:34:28 hml: did you get the naughty dog link? 23:37:04 nope 23:37:10 can you repost? 23:48:30 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65.78.24.47] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:56:34 phao_ [n=phao@20158174168.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 23:57:43 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []