00:02:20 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@67.161.236.94] has quit [] 00:02:46 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:06:13 annodomini__ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:07:39 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:27 Kerris4 [n=Kerris4@87-194-3-170.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:23:17 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:26:50 *offby1* remains frozen 00:26:58 .oO("oh please ... let him go away ... pleeeeez") 00:27:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:38 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:30:04 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 00:31:41 *XTL* tries to stretch his back 00:34:13 Daemmerung: that question that brick_ was asking ... people seem to ask that a lot. Why is that? Have they been exposed to older lisps, or languages like Python, or ... what? 00:34:57 brick_: since you're still here, I'll ask you: what reasonably-modern languages are you familiar with, that might have led you to expect scheme to make procedures "available" via symbols? 00:36:27 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 00:38:02 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053935.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:44 ruby is like that, sort of 00:42:50 possibly smalltalk? 00:44:52 offby1: I think quotiness confuses people. The representation is too much like data. 00:45:05 -!- npe [n=npe@c-24-60-48-136.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:46:23 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:31 "Oh, looky, a function call (fn arg1 arg2). And a list (foo bar mung). I'll make a new function call by replacing foo with oof...." 00:49:25 I think I had that confusion at one point, and it was due to having been exposed to CL ... I think 00:54:00 in ruby on rails it is common to pass collections of symbols as one argument to a procedure instead of a long list of optional arguments to a procedure, but I haven't seen symbols used to make procedures available in ruby 00:57:22 maybe there is a blog or article somewhere that talks about making procedures "available" via symbols 00:57:39 proq, Object.send :dup 00:58:47 irb(main):016:0> 4.send :"+", 4 00:58:47 => 8 00:59:02 ah 01:01:52 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:35 synx: totally btw, as i just stumbled upon it, you were saying... some time ago about neighbourhood dedicated social networks. http://www.aroundme.net/ ... 01:04:35 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:07:23 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:50 npe [n=npe@c-75-67-55-26.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:58 -!- npe [n=npe@c-75-67-55-26.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:24:50 -!- Kerris4 [n=Kerris4@87-194-3-170.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:26:21 Could you give me an example of list L such that (eval L) = L ? 01:28:21 :) difficult question 01:28:26 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 01:28:34 `((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) 01:28:38 rudybot: eval `((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) 01:28:39 Riastradh: ; Value: ((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))) (quote (lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))))) 01:29:03 Riastradh: please do not use macros. 01:29:25 Whoops, sorry! The leading quasiquote shouldn't have been there. 01:29:36 Anyway, it is a trivial exercise for the reader to eliminate all the quasiquotation. 01:30:06 Riastradh: please write the expression in lisp without macros. 01:30:27 As I said: it is a trivial exercise for the reader to eliminate all the quasiquotation. 01:31:33 let us see 01:32:32 rudybot: eval '((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote 01:32:33 (unquote x))))) (quote (lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote 01:32:33 (unquote x))))))) 01:32:33 a-s: error: eval:1:39: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 01:32:41 (quinify (quote quinify)) 01:32:43 rudybot: eval '((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))) (quote (lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))))) 01:32:44 a-s: ; Value: ((lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))) (quote (lambda (x) (quasiquote ((unquote x) (quote (unquote x))))))) 01:33:15 seems the same. 01:33:28 a-s, please test expressions in your own private REPL, and avoid rudybot except to demonstrate to others here. 01:33:44 ok 01:33:45 You probably want to strip off the leading quote mark, and you've left all the macros in. 01:47:11 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:47:52 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 01:50:15 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:02 orgy__ [n=ratm_@pD9FFFD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:43 -!- dlouhy [n=jdlouhy@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 01:53:35 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:00:33 -!- sam__ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 02:03:10 -!- cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-153-135.usc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:46 jeff_ [n=jdlouhy@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 02:07:04 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:00 -!- orgy_ [n=ratm_@pD9FFE003.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:27 -!- jeff_ is now known as dlouhy 02:23:00 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:26:58 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-169.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:27:55 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:36:00 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 02:47:02 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 02:49:01 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 03:01:21 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:45 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:13:42 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:13:57 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 03:14:18 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:14:24 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 03:20:06 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:20:12 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:47 -!- orgy__ [n=ratm_@pD9FFFD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:29:52 -!- luz [n=davids@201.19.1.9] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:33:40 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 03:38:53 All right, now I'm trying to take an element from a list (a symbol name) and define it as a symbol to be used later 03:39:18 i've been trying to find one for a little while and haven't turned up a damn thing. anyone know of an opengl 2.0+ binding for plt scheme? 03:40:03 or a more appropriate place to ask, if there is one 03:43:21 npe [n=npe@c-75-67-55-26.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:56 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 03:48:13 can you define a symbol as such: (define (car (cdr (car param))) 42) ? given that param is ((hello mysymbol 1 2)) 03:51:03 brick_: I don't think you can even (define 'symbol 42) so... 03:51:22 (DEFINE 'SYMBOL 42) is a perfectly valid Scheme program, but it doesn't do what I suspect you expect. 03:51:52 brick_, what you want to do is nonsensical. Probably you have a real problem to solve, and you believe this to be a subproblem of your real problem. You would do better to explain and to seek help with your real problem. 03:51:56 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:20 Riastradh: really? what does it do? 03:52:29 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:46 For example, `I'm reading a data file consisting of a sequence of entries, each entry of which has a name describing the format of the entry. I want to associate with each of these names a procedure that reads the corresponding format.' 03:52:58 rudybot: eval (begin (define 'symbol 42) 'fnord) 03:52:58 Riastradh: error: reference to undefined identifier: fnord 03:52:59 synx: With my testing of Guile, it seems to define a function called quote, with one argument, symbol. 03:53:05 rudybot: eval (begin (define 'symbol 42) '4) 03:53:05 Riastradh: ; Value: 42 03:53:13 oy vey it so does 03:53:40 Of course, defining a quote function is very dodgy (tm). 03:53:42 (define 'test 42) -> (define (quote test) 42) which overrides quote to always return 42 and not be a syntax anymore. 03:54:03 well I'm basically writing a small interpreter for a a language defined by some grammar that has scheme-like syntax where one nonterminal is (mydefine brick_, then you should introduce an explicit environment data structure, rather than trying to graft your object-language's environment onto the meta-language's (Scheme's). 03:54:32 mydefine is supposed to evaulate the first expression and assign it to id 03:54:44 I didn't even know that (define) could override stuff that is a syntax. 03:54:55 and then id can be present in the second expression, which is what the whole function mydefine returns when evaluated 03:55:41 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless249.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:55:43 -!- npe [n=npe@c-75-67-55-26.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:55:47 goedel [i=steffen@e181123028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:56:17 i've taken care of , it simply returns a constant 03:56:23 npe [n=npe@c-75-67-55-26.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:56:54 Riastradh: yeah optimally but that's probably beyond my abilities right now and it's a simple project 03:57:03 (In case you were not aware: An `environment' is a data structure mapping names to their meanings; loosely, an environment maps a name to the value of the variable by that name. Environments are seldom first-class in the object-programs whose names they describe; but they are often first-class, explicit data structures in meta-programs.) 03:57:08 brick_, no, you have it backwards. 03:57:10 so if there's some way to define a symbol that i can use anywhere, i'd like to try to do that first I suppose 03:57:55 Grafting your object-environments onto Scheme's meta-environments is the wrong approach, and you will spend more time struggling -- both now and when you later refer back to this code -- to make that grafting happen than you will spend on an explicit environment data structure. 03:58:55 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:58:59 If you were writing this program in C, would you expect to dynamically define new C variables? I imagine not. The same goes for nearly any other sensible programming language out there. 03:59:32 An environment is not a difficult data structure; a list of associations between name and value will suffice. 04:01:13 An association in that list can be a common pair. 04:01:54 Yeah if this were C I'd have some sort of internal data structure to hold user defined variables, but I'm not quite sure how I can do that with my current knowledge in scheme 04:02:17 I presume you are capable at least of using CONS, CAR, CDR, and PAIR?. 04:02:32 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180067173.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:02:47 Those, and EQV?, are all you need. 04:04:11 I'm off to bed now. You do yourself immeasurably better by learning to build a data structure for environments than to fruitlessly wrangle with the meta-language's environments, which are entirely unsuited to this purpose. 04:08:46 hmm.. well thanks but if there's a short-cut meta-language environment hack for this i'd really like to find it just to see if I can get something working at all, I'm kind of in a pinch at the moment 04:13:19 im trying to think of a way to maintain a set of bindings using a list but im not sure how to allow access to that list within later parts of the program 04:17:09 -!- npe [n=npe@c-75-67-55-26.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:17:33 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180069236.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:17:34 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:18:30 You're under time pressure to implement a new language? How does that happen? 04:20:07 school 04:21:17 those crazy proffs 04:21:31 not that I ever actually got to meet them, but 04:21:34 I've heard tell. 04:22:14 i can't think of any easy way to set up a binding list of varibles to values without using set (which i'm not allowed to use) 04:22:40 I'd use a hash table myself. *dodge* 04:22:57 hah 04:23:13 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:24:16 uuuuuh 04:24:18 alist? 04:25:08 yeah I was thinking, I could maybe set up something like (define bindings '()) and use that... looking into it now, thx 04:27:38 hah, this is perfect, Riastradh was right.. I'm just too brainwashed by procedural thinking to think clearly about it 04:38:13 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 04:41:18 04:41:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot jonrafkind elmex geckosenator goedel JohnnyL xan_ p1dzkl AtnNn Cale offby1` drdo dlouhy a1len kilimanjaro annodomini__ borism proq brick_ MichaelRaskin_ tizoc incubot Daeken bsmntbombdood rdd eno sladegen replor pchrist cracki bombshelter13 jeremiah gnomon leppie amoe pchrist|univ Modius benny cky ttmrichter_ Kusanagi eli Debolaz z0d kalven_ kniu levi synthasee chandler specbot minion lisppaste dnm a-s Jarvellis Khisanth tarbo 04:41:18 -!- names: errordeveloper rotty MelanomaSky gaja Mr_Awesome felipe araujo bascule wastrel agemo synx DuClare acarrico1 XTL Adrinael Paraselene_ saccade ski__ xz sad0ur aquanaut rudybot Deformati timmy_boy Daemmerung mbishop mr_uggla tltstc maxote elf vincenz jdev Leonidas sjamaan tessier mikael r0bby michaelw merlincorey tabe keyofnight heat bunz zbigniew pjdelport Riastradh djjack rmrfchik Poeir emma mqt Elly klutometis ski_ ricky mornfall kazzmir_ 04:41:18 -!- names: Axioplase_ duncanm qebab pbusser2 clog 04:41:18 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:41:35 aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:03:30 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:24 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 05:19:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 05:40:21 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:01 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 05:53:17 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:53:28 is there anything in scheme that is like lisp's defmacro? 05:55:09 -!- goedel [i=steffen@e181123028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:55:29 yes 05:55:35 what is it? 05:55:41 well 05:55:47 in chicken scheme 05:55:49 define-macro ? 05:57:27 you can define it in terms of syntax-case 06:03:50 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:37 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #scheme 06:12:46 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:27:22 aspect [i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 06:28:45 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["sleep time is now"] 06:44:22 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:45:13 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 06:57:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:37 -!- annodomini__ [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:18:31 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 07:20:06 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 07:26:20 cads_ [n=cadsmack@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:33:58 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-19-232.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 07:41:37 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:43:11 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:43:14 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 07:43:21 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-38-41.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:43:54 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:44:12 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 07:57:38 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 07:57:47 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 08:24:22 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit ["x"] 08:24:37 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberies"] 08:24:57 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 08:33:34 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.176.245.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 08:42:37 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:44:16 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Rebooting :-P"] 08:45:06 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:36 ejs [n=eugen@93-176-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #scheme 09:04:16 ejs: Hey 09:05:42 BW^-, hi 09:06:19 ejs: i was thinking about what schemers we are in europe, so apparently you're one :-) 09:09:56 yes I am ;-) 09:10:16 very cool! 09:10:18 what are you into? 09:12:36 actually I'm not a tru schemer -- just interested in functional programming. 09:12:56 what is a tru schemer? 09:13:04 trustic, i bet. 09:13:18 like, scheme is your religion? 09:13:20 aha? 09:14:17 geckosenator, well. I hope scheme is the primary language for someone ;-) 09:14:27 oh, so that's what it means 09:14:40 they use scheme more than any other language, so they "think" in scheme 09:16:01 ejs: what's your interestin in FP ? 09:17:02 BW^-, I 09:17:18 I'm working on backend application in Erlang 09:18:04 this is my first time experience with FP, so I got some classic books on scheme to get started 09:18:14 ejs: sweet! 09:18:36 have you added The Scheme Language And Its Implementation to your list yet? 09:18:42 (i think that's the name..) 09:19:27 http://www.federated.com/~jim/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html 09:19:34 BW^-, well. Not actually scheme, but lisp. I currently use lisp/vecto for some kind of data visualization 09:20:38 ok 09:21:48 ;-) 09:22:30 what's the difference between that an an libcurl FFI? 09:23:12 http://dynamo.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/wiki/images/3/32/Cairo-r1.tgz 09:27:14 BW^-, is this cairo for scheme? 09:27:36 it's a Cairo FFI for Scheme. 09:27:48 that is, you get all of Cairo in a Scheme setting. 09:28:23 ejs: i wrote a Scheme guide some while ago, can send you a copy if you want to. will publish it in a year or something. 09:29:20 BW^-, cool! 09:29:34 ejs: personally, i do appreciate the idea of Scheme with FFI support. 09:29:54 indeed Scheme is a very powerful language, though there are some powerful libraries out there as well, that are not written in Scheme. 09:30:07 such as cairo, Hypertable, libzip, curl, Windows 32 GUI API:s 09:30:08 etc. 09:31:52 what you get out of having them in Scheme, 09:31:53 I agree 09:32:07 is that you can use them in a setting where you have dynamic typing, first-class procedures, first-class continuations, macros 09:34:40 ..encryption, etc. 09:35:54 Kerris4 [n=Kerris4@87-194-3-170.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:41:59 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 09:49:20 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 09:51:52 which scheme implementation/interactive environment should I start out with? 09:53:04 my only constraint is that I'm in windows 09:53:23 cads_: you can install VirtualBox and install Debian in it. 09:53:29 then you have linux. however windows works fine. 09:53:37 cads_: what's your previous programming experience, and what's your goals? 09:54:26 I've read a couple of papers on lisp so I am familiar with cons lists and the REPL concept 09:54:45 ok 09:54:47 what did you code before 09:54:48 ? 09:56:03 in ruby I've done some rails programming, some numerical simulation code in ruby/C, a little malbolge interpreter in haskell, bunch of other tniy stuff 09:56:07 tiny* 09:56:13 ok 09:56:23 then i suppose quite any mature Scheme impl is for you. 09:56:41 Gambit, Chicken, PLT, Ikarus, Bigloo, MzScheme, there's a bunch 09:56:53 Chicken and PLT have the biggest package repositories. 09:56:55 i.e. libraries. 09:57:20 chicken is well recommended? 09:57:40 all of them are well recommended. 09:57:43 depends on your goals. 09:58:21 we use Gambit because it's very robust, performant, and very thought-through in its design. 10:00:00 I suppose Chicken ranks highest in many already existing libraries + performance. 10:00:35 i like chicken too, mostly because it has this toolbox-like feeling for me under linux 10:01:51 kanakBK [n=chatzill@MACGREGOR-THREE-NINETY-NINE.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 10:03:44 I've got chicken here, and what would be pretty comfortable in linux/bash is pretty unqieldly in the windows command prompt :D 10:04:34 yes, but I am one of those people that don't take people who code without a proper shell serious :) 10:04:52 cads_: then just get Linux in VirtualBOx with Putty. 10:05:06 or even cygwin can come to the rescue 10:05:10 bw, I think I am going to do just that 10:05:37 elmex, I was actually thinking of trying drscheme or something 10:06:03 i heard lots of good things about drscheme 10:06:35 and it's just personal taste that i don't like graphical IDEs :-) (ok, drscheme doesn't enforce it, i guess) 10:07:07 *cads_* marvels at how windows doesn't have any kind of a decent shell 10:07:13 I guess there's powershell 10:08:15 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:08:44 my debian laptop blew a fuse and now I'm leeching computer time from a windows machine 10:09:16 which makes me a sad hacker 10:10:49 you could use cygwin, if you can bare the slowness of ./configure on it :p 10:10:53 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 10:11:43 or msys if I wasn't so lazy :P 10:12:30 it's easiest to run vmware :D 10:14:33 cool, gambit and chicken both have interactive prompts 10:15:28 yep. 10:15:44 Gambit features a lot of code-introspection from it. 10:20:56 -!- kanakBK [n=chatzill@MACGREGOR-THREE-NINETY-NINE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008111922]"] 10:22:27 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 10:23:21 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Client Quit] 10:23:55 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 10:27:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@93-176-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:43:38 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:46:42 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:29 Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-181-223-126.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #scheme 10:51:50 Hello, how can i recognize the apperance of "#t" or "#f" like boolean? but to return false on expressions like (> 2 1) (meaning only to recognize the appearance of #t and #f (or #T #F) 10:52:26 (eq? x #t) 10:52:55 or (boolean=? #t x) 10:53:18 but if i do (eq? (> 3 1) #t) it returns true 10:53:33 leppie: that doesn't detect whether the true/false comes from an expression or is a literal :) 10:53:47 he wants to detect literal #t/#f 10:53:56 at runtime, presumably 10:54:02 *leppie* does not see the problem 10:54:07 Tankado: which is not possible, i think 10:54:15 ok 10:54:24 #t evaluates to #t 10:54:30 (> 2 1) evaluates to #t 10:54:36 and #t is #t :) 10:54:56 also been tring to look at the docs on how i can return the string "true" or "false" i tried (string #\t #\r) but that doesnt work 10:55:18 Tankado: (if #t "true" "false") 10:55:25 Tankado: dont change the language, get used to it :) 10:55:27 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:56:09 leppie : just tring to figure out how to return a build in string in a general case 10:56:22 elmex, now there I can see a problem :p 10:56:49 Tankado: whats a build in string? 10:57:25 elmex : second i probably have a mistake somewhere else as i tried your solution... 10:57:43 ? 10:57:50 what are u trying to do? 10:58:06 nvm my bad, thanks :) 10:59:20 I am in the process of tring to learn basiclly, and i want to compile scheme code 10:59:33 to C for example 10:59:53 ah 11:00:28 i would use the type predicates in a big cond 11:00:48 actually I think I have something that might help 11:00:53 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 11:01:28 http://www.krugle.org/examples/p-ZHpL4FA6FxjJOKr1/genwrite.scm 11:01:53 thats for a pretty-printer 11:02:10 but i guess you want to do the same 'decomposition' 11:02:38 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:03:33 seems nice leppie 11:03:56 phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 11:05:13 amazing how 17 year old code still runs perfectly in modern schemes :p 11:09:58 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:20:43 hmmm, weeks later i got my basic stop© GC mostly integrated into my previously ref counted interpreter 11:21:09 it's really a lot of work to convert a refcounted scheme to a stop© scheme if you got no real C level garbage collection 11:21:22 (boehm GC is for sissys :-) 11:22:28 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:27:22 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 11:33:30 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 11:42:18 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:02 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:46:45 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0578E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:55:48 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 12:03:27 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #scheme 12:04:44 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:06:29 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:08:40 sam__ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 12:08:49 vasa [n=vasa@mm-200-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 12:09:47 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:11:53 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 12:13:49 -!- cads_ [n=cadsmack@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:18:06 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #scheme 12:39:29 orgy` [n=ratm_@pD9FFFD56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 12:41:39 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:42:49 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 12:43:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:43:59 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.176.245.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 12:47:51 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:02 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:00:24 -!- bascule is now known as bascule2 13:00:28 -!- bascule2 is now known as bascule 13:10:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 13:11:27 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:11:44 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p54B25146.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:14:43 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 13:15:01 i broke it :( 13:15:55 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:21:21 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:29 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 13:37:20 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 13:38:04 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has joined #scheme 13:40:05 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:23 exexex_ [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has joined #scheme 13:57:32 -!- exexex_ [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 13:59:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:00:14 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:06:29 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has joined #scheme 14:08:04 -!- phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:09:07 so, im supposed to write a tail recursive list reverse function. im not toally sure if correclty understood what tail recursion is, but i think i got the right solution. would be cool if someone would just tell me if its right or wrong http://np.gfx-dose.de/820/na/ 14:11:45 seems right to me 14:11:58 you dont need the append + list 14:12:09 cons is good enough i think 14:12:34 ah sure 14:12:39 well thank you guys 14:13:19 but yes, it is tail recursive 14:13:47 its btw checkable with some trace command 14:13:54 (if its a tail recursive or not) 14:14:19 you need to include trace.ss or something i am sure leppie could help.. 14:15:04 i dont know scheme specific details :( 14:15:18 well you do (trace function-name) 14:15:33 i dont even see the trace package :D 14:15:53 then when you call that function you will see the computation tree and see if its in a recursive form 14:16:36 neither can i find the trace package nor does trace exist without the package 14:16:43 but i think ill just leave it as it is 14:16:47 there are other things to do :( 14:16:47 orgy`: what scheme you using? 14:16:58 drscheme "advanced" 14:17:11 im sure they have something 14:17:14 it already gave me enough problems when some of you guys told me to use that or this function ;) 14:18:18 orgy` : add this (require (lib "trace.ss")) 14:19:52 "require: expected at least two strings with lib, found only 1 parts" 14:22:18 works for me :| 14:29:22 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:29:51 luz [n=davids@201.29.216.59] has joined #scheme 14:34:52 phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #scheme 14:39:14 choas [n=lars@p5B0DE369.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:50 -!- Kerris4 [n=Kerris4@87-194-3-170.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:42:54 npe [i=npe@c-76-24-193-5.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:45:24 xwl [n=user@221.221.163.141] has joined #scheme 14:56:08 xwl` [n=user@221.221.152.137] has joined #scheme 15:05:21 -!- aspect [i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:52 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.163.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:42 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 15:11:12 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:13:49 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:40 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 15:23:04 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:24:23 -!- Tankado [n=Woodruff@bzq-79-181-223-126.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 15:35:18 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:36:00 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:05 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:39:03 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 15:40:02 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:40:54 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:05 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:43:37 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:10 -!- gaja is now known as hto 16:03:54 -!- hto is now known as gaja 16:07:10 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 16:07:24 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:07:39 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:40 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:09:55 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 16:10:06 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:31 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:10:36 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:53 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.171.129.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 16:12:06 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p54B25146.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:32 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.171.129.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! 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Perhaps you meant Lisp, a family of languages of which Scheme is a member (or perhaps a subfamily); or perhaps you meant Common Lisp, another member of the Lisp family. 21:02:16 gigo: If the question is between Scheme and "Common Lisp", then you're probably better off with Scheme as a first language. It's much simpler and has better introductory texts available ("how to design programs" and "structure and interpretation of computer programs"). implementations like PLT Scheme make it very easy to get started. 21:04:04 what is good in PLT scheme that makes it very easy? is it easier as compared to mz-scheme? 21:04:18 anyone want to try my vi mode for drscheme? http://planet.plt-scheme.org/display.ss?package=vi.plt&owner=kazzmir 21:04:23 MzScheme is a part of PLT Scheme, gigo. 21:05:43 is scheme good for solving mathematical problems? can I express my logic concisely and beautifully? 21:06:06 gigo: PLT Scheme includes DrScheme which is a great minimal IDE for scheme programming. DrScheme is integrated with the "how to design programs" book and has special "language levels" that expose more of the language as you learn. It's a unique approach. 21:06:32 I want to solve projecteuler and want to do it in a new language that would be best suited for maths, so that I learn a new language too along the way. is Scheme a good choice? 21:11:31 I did project euler in ruby :) 21:21:00 does scheme have big integer arithmetic? or are large integers shown as float as in C? 21:27:00 Most implementations can do bignums (easiest way is to try it out ;) 21:27:10 rudybot: (expt 1024 6) 21:27:17 rudybot: eval (expt 1024 6) 21:27:17 zbigniew: ; Value: 1152921504606846976 21:27:37 rudybot: eval (expt 1024 15) 21:27:37 zbigniew: ; Value: 1427247692705959881058285969449495136382746624 21:29:23 rudybot: eval (inexact->exact 1e100) 21:29:23 zbigniew: ; Value: 10000000000000000159028911097599180468360808563945281389781327557747838772170381060813469985856815104 21:33:44 can I have a function definition within another function? such as: (define (add pair) (define (bindings (cons pair (bindings))))) 21:34:42 brick_: certainly. 21:34:52 rudybot: eval (ackermann 4 3) 21:34:52 zbigniew: error: reference to undefined identifier: ackermann 21:35:42 zbigniew: so they can do bignum by default? and the integers are arbitrary precision right? only limited by memory? 21:37:04 gigo: depends on your implementation. 21:38:37 -!- gigo [n=gigo@unaffiliated/gigo] has left #scheme 21:39:54 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:42:30 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.149.233.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 21:43:45 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:46:08 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-45-85.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:10 anyone see what's wrong with (define (addid newpair) (define (bindings) (cons newpair (bindings)))) assuming that bindings is a 0-arg function defined prior 21:47:27 ummä 21:47:34 that does not do anything. 21:47:44 you could as well just write (define (addid newpair ) 'potato) 21:48:27 perhaps really you wanted to have the second define be a lambda? 21:52:18 brick_: Your definition of `bindings' within `addid' shadows any prior definition. As a result, you have an endless recursion. 21:53:58 that is, if you were to actually ever call (bindings) from within that scope 21:54:04 any of you try Scheme for programming game or graphics? 21:54:17 I'm sure he'd get around to it someday. 21:56:55 JohnnyL: once in a while we hear tell of such exploits, but they are largely mythical, I fear 21:58:05 *sjamaan* snickers 21:58:10 *Daemmerung* ain't talkin' 22:00:57 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 22:07:51 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:52 is there some word for the save-as phobia engendered by source forge? 22:11:23 i.e. i don't want to save-as on an apparent link because it might actually lead to two or three splash pages and not a .tar.gz 22:12:02 so i have to test every apparent .tar.gz for splashiness before delegating to wget 22:16:03 JohnnyL: If you are interested, I am sure that you could extend or link a Scheme system into Blender and use it to power some games. 22:16:17 aaco_ [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has joined #scheme 22:21:15 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:30:19 arcfide afaik blender is written in c, used for modeling. 22:31:43 -!- aaco [n=aaco@unaffiliated/aaco] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:36:34 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has joined #scheme 22:38:35 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:43 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:47:06 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:47:44 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 22:49:27 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:35 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit ["Connection reset by beer"] 22:51:08 -!- aaco_ is now known as aaco 22:54:19 -!- npe [i=npe@c-76-24-193-5.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:57:02 JohnnyL: Blender is a modeler, animation, post-proc and game engine, last I checked. 22:57:40 JohnnyL: It's written in C, but has some sort of API or such that is currently linked into a Python Engine for doing logic with the Game Engine. 22:58:17 Since it is written in C and is already linked with a high level language like Python, I think adding a Scheme version into it wouldn't be hard. 23:00:47 npe [i=npe@c-76-24-193-5.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:38 -!- xwl` [n=user@221.221.152.137] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:24:41 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.247] has joined #scheme 23:30:45 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:31 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 23:44:19 arcfide for all intents of purposes i think i'm sold on ogre3d. 23:45:19 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:46:41 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.133.143] has joined #scheme 23:52:05 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 23:52:07 elf: You around? 23:52:44 So, yeah, I had my first experience with R6RS records the other day. 23:52:48 That was...interesting. 23:55:22 So, is there some reason other languages don't foster a nice, comfortable reliance on small procedures? 23:56:22 I'm working with some Python code, and I note that there is prevalent use of very large procedures that do a lot of testing up front, and then do a lot of casing. Why not separate this stuff out like we would do in Scheme? Surely function calls aren't that expensive, right? 23:56:59 You can write bad code in any language.