00:00:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:39 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 00:09:13 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 00:10:38 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #scheme 00:11:35 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:23 BW^-, I should hope that *any* module system will handle that. 00:12:33 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-54-79.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:13:04 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:14:29 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 00:14:56 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.97.138] has joined #scheme 00:16:08 twp 00:16:09 yep 00:18:20 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:20:06 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-30-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:20:21 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 00:23:50 aix [n=who@unaffiliated/toymachine] has joined #scheme 00:24:16 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:35 hi 00:24:42 hello 00:25:35 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:27:09 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 00:27:43 how stable is web applications in PLT scheme? 00:28:07 JohnnyL, PlaneT seems to work pretty reliably. 00:28:47 arcfide url please? 00:30:06 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 00:33:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:31 JohnnyL, http://planet.plt-scheme.org ? 00:37:39 arcfide thanks. 00:37:48 arcfide what benefits does it have over, say Ruby on Rails? 00:38:46 Besides it being Scheme 00:38:48 ? 00:38:56 JohnnyL, Didn't we have this discussion already? 00:39:34 PlaneT is just PLT Scheme's code depot, but it is written in PLT Scheme, if I remember rightly. 00:39:52 I think it is a continuation based web server, which in itself is rather nice. 00:40:08 Not to mention, RoR is slow. 00:40:29 arcfide oh, so that means it manages state? 00:40:47 What web server/web application framework doesn't manage state? 00:41:13 JohnnyL, What are you trying to do? 00:41:32 arcfide generally create websites. I'm looking to see what's the best platform. 00:41:59 JohnnyL: There is no best platform. 00:42:11 JohnnyL: What is your programming background? 00:42:52 arcfide client/server, database, c, vb, sql mostly. a few other languages here and there. 00:43:50 What database do you like the most? 00:44:08 arcfide There is no 'like most' database. 00:44:12 JohnnyL: In the end, you just choose what works best for you. Scheme has no lack of web frameworks. 00:44:23 ok 00:44:45 JohnnyL: I asked about databases because there are some frameworks that work more smoothly with some databases than others. 00:44:55 What kind of stability do you need? 00:45:00 What is your experience with Scheme? 00:45:05 i can tell you one thing, when we reviewed ms access back in 94 it really sucked. Made one out of random access and sequential data files that was quicker better and more portable. 00:45:32 arcfide oh, just quite a bit of analysis with Lisp and a few small procedures. 00:45:36 (functions) 00:45:38 Well, in Scheme Land the flat file is well beloved. 00:45:51 Analysis? 00:45:54 arcfide yeah i see no wrong in flat land. 00:46:30 PLT Scheme is a viable option for deploying applications to the web. 00:46:38 That's about all anyone can say about any framework. 00:47:16 But if you just want to write websites, CGI is probably just fine as well, and then you can use any Scheme you want. 00:47:42 arcfide I have a feeling that the amount of code written in Scheme is less than Ruby. is this true? And is it faster to write? 00:47:58 right cgi 00:48:10 just print to port 80! :) 00:48:16 You are asking questions that can't really be answered very easily, because they are subjective. 00:49:05 And more Scheme code has been written than Ruby I suspect, given that Scheme is older, and more widely used across many different domains than Ruby. 00:49:20 AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:50:10 And who can say what is faster to write than something else? It depends on how good you are with the languages. Scheme provides significant resources and features that permit very expressive solutions to problems in succinct ways that may or may not be achievable for the same amount of effort on other platforms. 00:50:21 -!- AtomicToad [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:54 ok 00:54:00 JohnnyL: wait, are you currently assessing and/or learning Scheme? 00:54:37 BW^- I can read most Scheme programs. Not to familiar with all of the built in fuctions. But assessing a whole line of new web sites. 00:54:57 johnnyl: assessing what? 00:58:06 arcfide,johnnyl: for very small web sites, i agree CGI may be the easiest way to go. 00:58:22 second would be some easy-to-set-up web server solution. there's bunches of that. 00:58:42 BW^- Assessing the languages for a whole line of new web sites. 00:58:50 ok 00:59:17 CGI works very well for websites that don't have to have a lot of interactivety, or which may not have high volume. 00:59:18 johnnyl: do you mean, your company's new product, or do you mean, how suitable scheme is for some particular concept? 00:59:30 we do not use CGI for our product, for instance. 00:59:36 BW^- no for some other entity other than myself. 00:59:39 the reason is pretty obvious, we have bunches of requests. 00:59:44 johnnyl: ok 00:59:51 BW^-, have you actually tested this? 00:59:58 arcfide: bunches? 01:00:04 of concurrent requests? 01:00:08 BW^-: I am sure you have, but, I'm curious whether you tried CGI first? 01:00:16 ah, no. :) 01:00:30 just the fact it would duplicate the number of file descriptors was reason enough. 01:00:39 we need to have the abilty of Bunches of sleeping TCP requests. 01:00:41 JohnnyL: There is no best. 01:01:00 johnnyl: do you have specific technical requirements/demands/needs ? 01:01:35 BW^- unknown 01:01:38 BW^- all new 01:01:48 johnnyl: you must be precise about these. these should rightly influence your technology choices, undepending of where you are right now in terms of technology. 01:01:56 BW^- I'm going to wind up asking if they want a specific technology , since they'll be hiring. 01:01:57 johnnyl: But you must know What it is that you should create/build! 01:02:09 BW^- websites are websites. 01:02:18 like, HTML code and pictures? 01:02:21 no dynamic stuff? 01:02:28 static documents? 01:02:36 JohnnyL: Not all websites are created equal. 01:02:47 BW^- prolly as far as web 2.0, ajax stuff. 01:03:06 JohnnyL: You'll want to define that. 01:03:06 johnnyl: without revealing any disclosed things, can you describe technically the character of this app? 01:03:14 how many users in total ? how many servers? what speed? 01:03:27 BW^- yeah an online site for Clubs, Bars. 01:03:31 what are the technical tasks this app performs? 01:03:54 JohnnyL: Development paradigms? 01:03:55 you still need to be more specific. 01:03:59 porolly not alot of concurrent users i'd imagine. just brick and mortar contacts on the net. 01:04:15 not like, "i'm going to make a booking system for X Bar." 01:04:15 arcfide, i'm the only developer. i'd prolly use git and vi. 01:04:30 but what it is 01:04:33 we can't help you otherwise. 01:04:34 BW^- I'll have to ask. 01:04:41 JohnnyL: As in, do you intend to have a triple division of labor thing that the RoR people like? 01:04:43 "Scheme" is as general as "atom" or "water". 01:04:54 arcfide do you mean MVC? 01:05:14 johnnyl: how many hours do you think it will take to set it up .. 01:05:15 JohnnyL: I mean, DB + Processing (Ruby) + Presentation (HTML + JS) 01:05:19 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-89-214.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [] 01:05:27 BW^- in what platform? 01:05:48 minion: advice for JohnnyL 01:05:48 JohnnyL: #11920: The error message is the Truth. The error message is God. 01:05:55 arcfide yes that is model view controller. 01:06:01 cky [n=cky@203-211-89-214.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 01:06:22 minion -"The Keymaster" Soon all our prisons will be released! :) 01:06:26 JohnnyL: How many details can you give? 01:06:35 prisoners rather 01:06:42 arcfide what else would you like to know? 01:07:08 JohnnyL: So far you have told us the equivalent of telling a bar tender that you want a drink. 01:07:14 johnnyl: currently i don't feel you have told what technology you need 01:07:47 JohnnyL: We may give you milk or Vodka for all the details you've given us. 01:10:45 arcfide Yeah, well then besides your infinite level of wisdom in Scheme we both know the same about the projects. 01:11:13 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 01:11:31 johnnyl: in that case, you are in a stage too early to make technology choices. 01:11:45 ok 01:12:06 first off, do not ask anyone for particular technology advice based on such little input again. 01:12:18 if you want to discuss what are suitable technology choices in general, that's another story. 01:12:22 that's very cool, please do. 01:12:23 alot. 01:12:41 second, go to the guy and see what they want exactly. paint pictures. write a specification. draft agreements. 01:14:01 the key things you should look for is exactly what do they want the thing for. 01:14:21 what should it do. paint a picture of all windows/pages they should see, and pictures of what happens when anything is clicked or otherwise interacted with. 01:14:32 see how much time they want to invest for development, and maintenance. 01:14:39 development time that is 01:14:56 check how much use it should have. 01:15:08 and briefly in what technological setting the solution will be used. 01:16:18 when you have this input, you have the basis for determining what technology is suitable. 01:16:20 how to do it. 01:19:35 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-8a3bfe40747450ed] has joined #scheme 01:20:33 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-117-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:31 BW^- are you familiar with what websites normally do? 01:23:08 pretty, yes. 01:23:27 are you familiar with the difference between static and dynamic web sites? 01:23:36 presuming that you want it to be ajax, i suppose you are. 01:23:39 sure 01:23:45 great. 01:24:04 so, what more? 01:28:20 johnnyl: so is this a static or dynamic? 01:28:27 what client-server interactions are there? 01:29:02 a1len_ [n=James@cpe-76-174-234-139.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:30:55 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:32:23 -!- a1len_ is now known as a1len 01:32:35 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-89-214.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:35:57 arcfide: did you address how we relate to the workability of Bunches of parallell http requests? 01:36:19 BW^-: I'm sorry, what? 01:36:33 oh, no, right, you asked if we considered CGI. 01:36:40 and we hadn't, by good reasons. 01:36:57 BW^-: A bunch of parallel HTTP requests may or may not work with CGI depending on your definition of bunches. 01:37:12 >15 000. 01:38:00 I have seen some terribly designed web applications that just pile connections on top of connections for no good reason. Most of the time they blame mod_* for their scaling problems. 01:38:29 But, I am sure you have good reasons for doing what you do. 01:38:30 :-) 01:39:21 BW^- I am just guestimating they are form fields, perhaps coupled with a myspace like user inventory. 01:42:46 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:07 -!- Arelius [n=Indy@netblock-68-183-230-134.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:45:35 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:48:49 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-117-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:13 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:07:23 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-8a3bfe40747450ed] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:28 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:15:03 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:16:46 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 02:17:22 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:29:44 hi gang 02:29:50 i've been using dr scheme to run my scheme programs 02:30:02 and sure i could probably google this, but how can one invoke the scheme interpreter from command line in unix 02:35:10 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:35:16 jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-154-18.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:35:28 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:52 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:36:00 *jcowan* unvanishes yet again. 02:36:58 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:37:13 aix: mzscheme 02:40:14 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:41 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 02:43:20 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #scheme 02:43:46 mbishop: it doesn't run it ... hrms 02:43:49 JohnnyL [n=atomicto@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:44:39 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless206.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:45:18 how the heck do i load the file 02:46:11 nm got it 02:46:20 mzscheme --load foo.scm 02:47:36 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:15 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:57:06 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066215.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:38 -!- JohnnyL [n=atomicto@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 03:15:28 -!- aix [n=who@unaffiliated/toymachine] has quit ["leaving"] 03:15:33 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 03:19:51 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179192229.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:52 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:00 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:28:19 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has left #scheme 03:34:49 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 03:44:04 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:46:32 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 03:52:36 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:54:27 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:56:57 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 04:03:01 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:06:22 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:19:44 incubot: i'm suffering from a horrendous malaise; or rather an insouciance 04:19:47 it means something like 'slime' or 'malaise' or 'pestilence' in latin. 04:23:26 lalala 04:24:55 falala 04:25:55 jcowan, I have a few minutes to discuss threads and dynamic binding, if you wish. 04:27:23 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.45] has joined #scheme 04:31:49 Okay. 04:31:58 I couldn't think what to write in the log after you left. 04:32:38 For me, mutable dynamically bindable varirables are prescribed by ISLisp, but threads are not. 04:32:52 So I need to see how to integrate the thread feature into the single-threaded ISLisp core. 04:33:15 Personally I'd just make all dynamic variables thread-local. 04:33:18 One idea is to give each thread its entirely separate dynamic state representation, and communicate between threads solely by pipes of some sort. 04:33:50 However, that prevents users from taking advantage of the thread-safe objects already available in the Java libraries. 04:34:21 Hence the idea (which I believe is the rule in CL implementations) of effectively partitioning the dynamic variables ("variables" henceforth) 04:34:27 into those which have been bound and those which have not, 04:34:33 and making the former shared and the latter not shared. 04:34:45 If you use a non-thread-safe object as the value of a shared varaible, you deserve to lose. 04:35:54 What advantage does sharing dynamic variables bring? Are there any programs written with a single process in mind that would benefit by implicit sharing when they are used in a multiprocessing environment? 04:40:58 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 04:41:13 Well, consider a shared-nearly-nothing program like a web server: if there is a thread per request, there still needs to be a means to allocate incoming jobs to the thread pool, and a way to maintain the thread pool itself. 04:41:41 (Am I correct in saying, AFAYK, that this is in fact the way things are done in typical CLs?) 04:42:02 I don't know what is typical of Common Lisp implementations. 04:42:38 I know that in SBCL, threads begin with fresh dynamic environments, in which special variables have their top-level values. 04:44:53 With each special variable there is a thread-local location for its value. 04:45:40 So how do threads communicate? Solely through shared mutable data structure? 04:45:57 Roughly the same is true of Scheme48, except that dynamic variables (`fluids') are immutable. (There is a little more about the initial dynamic environments -- SPAWN sends a request to the enclosing scheduler to spawn a thread, and with what dynamic environment that thread begins is up to the scheduler.) 04:46:09 Define `communicate'. 04:46:20 Exchange information about their state. 04:46:42 Values may be passed by lexical scope to the procedures to spawn threads to run. 04:47:24 Threads exchange information about their state in many different ways, most involving a common reference to a synchronizing data structure, such as a pipe. 04:48:07 *jcowan* nods. 04:49:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:50:00 Seldom do threads exchange information simply by storing values in cells. Usually they also revive another thread, if any were waiting for the value. 04:51:15 *fiddling with Termite* 04:51:26 *for use* 04:54:04 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-160.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:54:19 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:55:20 So I advise against abusing dynamic variables for said synchronization; they're not useful enough alone. 04:55:36 eek ! 04:55:41 Riastradh said State ! 04:55:42 fear !! 04:55:44 avoid! 04:55:47 limit! 04:55:52 *Riastradh* blinks. 04:55:53 not fear, but omit. 04:56:55 oh, mutations on a state, Riastradh said, i mean 04:57:09 One annoyance is that ISLisp lacks wide-scope lexical variables, though perhaps wide-scope constants suffice. 04:57:10 software design bassed too much on muting a stte. 04:57:13 mutating. 04:57:17 [Riastradh: Yes, "jumps". I was overly excited by the fact that I was running irc in Emacs in an ssh terminal on a blackberry toy -- and overtired from being up about two days up to that point.] 04:57:23 Thus, one could hold the pipe object in a constant. 04:57:35 `Wide-scope lexical variables'? 04:58:07 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.45] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:58:11 (receive (read write) (open-pipe) (spawn (lambda () ... (write ...) ...)) (spawn (lambda () ... (read) ...))) 04:58:19 Is this inexpressible? 04:58:39 This is not a pipe. 04:58:49 :P 04:59:28 Global variables ("wide-scope") are inherently dynamic. 04:59:42 Thus they are part of the problem. 04:59:51 What is the problem? 05:00:39 If all global variables are dynamic, then two threads can only share the same pipe by being started in the same (non-global) lexical scope. 05:00:44 s/If/Since 05:01:06 Yes... 05:01:21 But as I say, constants are global and not dynamic, hence they can be shared. So I can set a constant's value to be a pipe. 05:01:21 What problem does this fact lead to? 05:01:44 Inconvenience, at least. 05:01:46 Urgh! I should exhort against that. 05:02:15 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 05:02:28 Constants should be used only for objects that make the same sense between two different images. 05:02:32 A pipe does not. 05:04:33 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:04:49 If you insist on the use of dynamic variables to transmit the pipe to the procedures to run in the spawned threads, then you can easily do this clearly and explicitly without assuming that the spawned threads will inherit the spawner's dynamic environment. 05:05:34 Simply bind the dynamic variable in the thunks to be executed before invoking the procedures in question. 05:07:18 Whatever dynamic environment one chooses for spawned threads, there will be programs that make mistakes. 05:07:22 That contradicts the notion that all new threads start with the original value. 05:07:45 If spawned threads inherit their spawners' dynamic environments, then the mistakes lead to missynchronized uses of values of dynamic variables in the spawners' environments. 05:08:17 These missynchronized uses of data structures usually go undetected until obscure errors arise later on. 05:08:38 underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:08:51 If the spawned threads begin with fresh dynamic environments, then the mistakes will be reported as soon as a dynamic variable expected to have a local binding is found not to have one; and they are rectified as I described above to pass the pipe to the spawned threads. 05:09:01 Example: 05:09:06 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:09:15 (define-dynamic *mumble-pipe*) 05:09:32 (define (using-mumble-pipe pipe thunk) (lambda () (bind ((*mumble-pipe* pipe)) (thunk)))) 05:10:10 underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:10:10 (define (launchem) ; Apologies for the paste; this was longer than I estimated. 05:10:15 (let ((pipe (make-pipe))) 05:10:18 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176220184.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:10:25 (spawn (using-mumble-pipe pipe first-task)) 05:10:29 (spawn (using-mumble-pipe pipe second-task)))) 05:11:59 Quite so. As long as all threads are spawned within the lexical scope, all's well. 05:12:32 But we do from time to time find it useful not to have to embed the entire program in a giant letrec. 05:12:36 If you want to inherit a particular dynamic variable, 05:12:40 (define (preserving-mumble-pipe thunk) 05:12:49 (using-mumble-pipe *mumble-pipe* thunk)) 05:13:05 Then LAUNCHEM becomes 05:13:07 (define (launchem) 05:13:13 (bind ((*mumble-pipe* (make-pipe))) 05:13:19 (spawn (preserving-mumble-pipe first-task)) 05:13:22 (spawn (preserving-mumble-pipe second-task)))) 05:14:15 This definition of LAUNCHEM uses no lexical variables. 05:14:48 p-m-p calls u-m-p and stuffs the pipe into the lexical vaiable "pipe". 05:15:11 Yes; so? 05:16:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0DAA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:12 Do you seek to avoid all lexical variables anywhere in the program? 05:19:24 No. 05:19:48 On reflection this seems like a circuitous way to get the value of the dynamic variable passed through the firewall. 05:19:56 But I agree it does work. 05:20:29 Slight digression: am I right to think that (lambda (*foo*) ...) where *foo* is dynamic is the same as (lambda (foo) (bind ((*foo* foo)) ...))? 05:20:50 Not only does it work, but its mode of failure is better than implicit inheritance's mode of failure, and I have yet to find a program that is better expressed assuming implicit inheritance. 05:20:50 IOW, lambda binding of dynamic variables adds nothing? 05:21:17 In Common Lisp? Yes, except that there is no separate operator for dynamic binding (ignoring PROGV). 05:21:28 Right. 05:21:43 *jcowan* considers adding PROGV to Blesity. 05:21:56 or some procedure equivalent thereof. 05:21:58 Please instead make first-class dynamic resources. 05:22:07 Can you explain? 05:22:08 First-class, anonymous dynamic resources, I mean. 05:22:18 As in fluid objects? 05:22:20 Right. 05:23:01 Coopting symbols for the purpose, and then requiring uninterned symbols for anonymity, is silly. 05:23:40 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:44 Dynamic variables in ISLisp aren't symbols. 05:23:58 What, then, would PROGV do? 05:24:38 It would be necessary to reify dynamic variables, but no particular reason to reify them as symbols. 05:24:44 OK, good. 05:26:30 Then DEFINE-FLUID can create a fluid and define a name macro for expanding to (FLUID-VALUE ); BIND can refer to fluids by name macros, and FLUID (say) can reify fluids by their name macros; and PROGV (although please call it WITH-FLUID-BINDINGS or something else sensible) can be a part of an independent fluid abstraction without macros. 05:27:30 -!- tjafk [n=timj@e176221103.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:40 *jcowan* tries to process that. 05:29:03 (Symbols in ISLisp have only print names and property lists, as in Chez or Chicken.) 05:30:09 In ISLisp dynamics are in a separate namespace anyhow, so all references must be (dynamic foo) 05:30:09 Make first-class fluids, with procedures such as MAKE-FLUID, FLUID-VALUE, and WITH-FLUID-BINDING(S). 05:30:21 Oh, that makes it even easier; no name macros necessary. 05:30:24 Right. 05:31:00 So we have separate DEFDYNAMIC, DYNAMIC, DYNAMIC-SET, and DYNAMIC-LET special forms. 05:31:23 Make DEFDYNAMIC, DYNAMIC, and DYNAMIC-LET use fluids underneath, and let DYNAMIC-FLUID (or whatever name suits your fancy) be a macro to expose the underlying fluid. 05:32:02 *jcowan* nods. 05:32:45 I see how that would work. I'm not sure it's in the spirit of ISLisp, though. 05:36:22 How else would you add PROGV except by what could be clarified as what I described? 05:39:02 I wouldn't. 05:39:21 I'm thinking that anonymous fluids aren't ISLispian. 05:39:28 Why not? 05:39:56 The spirit of IL, as I understand it, is to be as un-dynamic as possible while still being a Lisp. 05:40:14 No EVAL, no MOP, no reflection of any sort. 05:42:11 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:42:30 How do anonymous fluids constitute reflection? 05:42:54 They aren't, but they aren't statically analyzable either. 05:43:12 What static analysis do you want? 05:44:32 Unreified fluids are just slots in a dynamic-state object; they don't have to be treated separately. 05:45:08 So you want to statically fix the size of dynamic environments? 05:46:36 Anyway, this issue is separate from implicit dynamic environment inheritance, which I have made my case against. 05:46:45 Yes. 05:48:36 And now I must sleep, for it has long passed my bedtime. 05:49:18 Good night! 05:49:45 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 05:49:55 Good night. 05:56:05 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-248.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 05:56:38 -!- cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-134-093.usc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:01:23 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has left #scheme 06:03:47 cky [n=cky@203-211-93-140.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:03:53 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 06:15:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:15:03 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:15:03 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:15:03 -!- geckosen1tor [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:15:03 -!- 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joined #scheme 06:53:00 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:37 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:01 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair16.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:00:09 incubot: right about now, the interminable join/leave messages resemble matrix digital rain 07:00:11 although I've seen hideously nested, interminable Python. 07:01:19 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:03:47 this chan have a pastebin 07:12:23 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 07:29:58 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-96-104.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:34:28 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #scheme 07:39:42 minion: tell bcow about lisppaste 07:39:43 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 07:40:02 *sladegen* spanks lisppaste 07:40:52 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye"] 07:41:50 ooh my good. 07:41:56 minion: show bcow lisppaste 07:41:56 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 07:42:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:42:25 thx 07:42:48 UI app dev in Scheme is just so nice. 07:45:17 ooo whee, this is ghey. /msging minion with the show command worked, but speaking in the channel did not. 07:45:58 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 07:46:22 i don't suppose there is a built in function to evaluate operator precedence ie compare precedence('* '+) 07:47:05 there is no op-prec in lisp-syntax... 07:47:23 perhaps you mean something else than i hear. 07:48:05 okay 07:49:29 1+2*3 is (+ 1 (* 2 3), (1+2)*3 is (* 3 (+ 1 2))... etc. 07:50:38 i.e. You Say What You Mean in lisp. 07:57:23 BW^-: Hmm, what library do you use for UI dev? 07:58:14 sjamaan: even if libraries exist for that, 07:58:36 we need to have a pretty minimalist approach 07:59:13 so, Win32 and WebKit API via C ffi. 07:59:18 "from scratch" 07:59:43 Oh, I thought you were referring to past experience with some Scheme UI lib 07:59:54 nope. 08:00:07 though, if i would use any pre-built Scheme UI lib, i suppose Jazz is nice 08:00:11 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:00:26 Guillaume Cartier has been working for 10-20 years with it, and he'll release a public beta in 3-4 months. 08:00:36 he said it works on gambit, chicken and bigloo 08:00:42 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 08:01:01 uses Cairo to render crossplatform 08:02:13 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit [Client Quit] 08:02:41 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 08:08:16 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:06 Nifty 08:17:12 That *is* interesting news 08:17:31 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055576.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:17:52 BW^-: Where can I read about that? 08:18:21 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:21:49 *sjamaan* checks out jazzscheme.org 08:30:29 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 08:30:37 bcow pasted "sdf" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70124 08:31:22 how do i compare the strings "+" & "*" ? 08:31:35 or check if a variable = "+" 08:32:35 opa, opb are strings or symbols? 08:33:08 strings 08:33:11 string=? 08:33:43 rudybot: (string=? "a" "a") 08:33:54 rudybot: eval (string=? "a" "a") 08:33:54 rmrfchik: ; Value: #t 08:34:00 rudybot: good boy 08:35:10 sjamaan: i think mr. cartier in person is the best source for info. 08:35:17 his nickname is gcartier, and he's online alot, i would say. 08:35:20 timezone EST. 08:35:28 in particular during office hours. 08:35:49 thanks rmrfchik 08:35:58 also, there's some words on www.jazzscheme.org , though please be adviced that parts of it reflect what was 10 years ago rather than now. 08:36:08 sjamaan: he just started a documentation effort. 08:36:11 haha 08:36:17 Where is he online? 08:36:20 On this network? 08:36:25 yes. 08:36:28 he's always on #gambit . 08:36:35 i asked him if to join #scheme , 08:36:45 and he said he would start doing that when he's got the beta release out. 08:36:52 :) 08:37:40 if i got the story right, Jazz has its origins in a c++-based Scheme GUI creation environment that was developed and maintained by a Montreal-based Scheme enterprise app development company, 08:37:50 that existed some 10 years ago. 08:38:01 Cartier was the lead dev of the UI stuff all of the time. 08:38:21 over the last 5 years, he dumped the C++-based scheme implementation, 08:38:56 and made it cross-Scheme-implementation through writing scheme implementation-specific macros. 08:39:06 I gathered that much from the website 08:39:35 It sounds extremely promising 08:39:48 yep 08:39:56 A cross-Scheme GUI lib would *really* help Scheme 08:39:59 i got a pre-beta here. it's nice. 08:40:05 it has an IDE too 08:40:25 I'm not that interested in the IDE ;) 08:40:39 hehe. ok. 08:41:05 sjamaan: cartier is very open to feedback and other input. 08:41:38 Cool 08:41:39 rmrfchik i have to take an input of math like (((1/2)+(3-4))*(5+5))+9) and apply some algorithum to it to rearage its order into a postfix expression and evaluate it, i'm confused as how i'm going to evaluate it, if i treat it as a string and implement operator precedence then how to i evalue it if its turned into a string ? 08:41:55 so be sure to communicate what respects of the Jazz concept are valuable to you, and how you think it best can be formed. 08:42:19 I don't know much about the concepts because there's no docs and no code! 08:42:25 right. 08:42:34 I'd like to study either before giving feedback 08:42:45 But I realize that's just a matter of time 08:42:48 i perfectly see that. 08:42:57 bcow: read about parsers 08:43:45 theres no like eval(schemestring) function ? 08:44:10 bcow there is. 08:44:14 you want to create scheme function and then eval it? 08:44:28 this is called "prefix" not "postfix" 08:44:39 prefix: (+ 1 2), postfix: 1 2 + 08:44:45 bcow: You can only eval lists, not strings 08:45:07 (actually, a string can be evaled, but that would eval to itself) 08:45:38 rudybot: eval "hi, bbcow" 08:45:38 rmrfchik: ; Value: "hi, bbcow" 08:45:42 rmrfchik ya my goal is to create a program that takes a prefix expression changes it to postfix then evaulates it 08:46:00 bcow: lol 08:46:02 -!- presto10 [n=presto10@cs180038.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:46:11 bcow: 1+2 is NOT prefix expr 08:46:23 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 08:46:44 oh sorry i mean infix to postfix 08:47:17 1 2 + 08:47:20 ^ that's postfix 08:47:27 + 1 2 is prefix 08:47:30 bcow: and what's the problem> 08:48:50 bcow: this task can be divided: 1. Lex -- you take lexem from your string. "1" "+" "ab" "(" ")" and so on 08:48:52 if i have a stack (list) with (1,3,+) how am i going to evaulate it as (1 3 +) 08:49:06 2. Build syntax tree 08:49:18 3. Analyze, produce postfox 08:49:21 postfix 08:49:42 bcow: just build postfix machine. 08:51:06 okay thanks for your help rmrfchik 08:55:25 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:24 rmrfchik pasted "postfix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70125 08:57:38 bcow: quick program... implement (op...) 08:58:13 it must take 2 numbers from stack, perform op, put answer to stack and return it 09:03:39 sjamaan: does swing a la sisc count as a cross-platform gui lib? 09:04:31 cool thanks rmrfchik 09:04:36 klutometis: No, that counts as a horrible Java-requiring GUI lib ;) 09:04:57 It's not cross-scheme either, which is what would make Jazz particularly interesting 09:07:23 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055576.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:29 (whoops: reflexively read cross-Scheme as cross-platform) 09:07:38 :) 09:07:59 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 09:08:34 incubot: did you hear that synx' ssl certificates are broken? 09:08:36 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/continuationEvent/event.scm 09:08:39 thanks 09:08:45 haha 09:09:36 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:10:54 klutometis: if you know how to fix them I'm all ears :p 09:11:25 I don't think they're broken, but feel free to prove me wrong. 09:12:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:12:26 cash, i suppose; in firefox it isn't so bad: only three dialogs to click through; but wget refuses to play unless i give it --no-check-certificate 09:12:45 just curious: why https by default? 09:12:57 Yeah I find wget highly annoying there. There's a way to do it, but... eh 09:13:50 https is the default so that I can conceal my dastardly evil doings within legitimate traffic. Or pretty much because I don't feel that my ISP got any business seeing what I'm sending around :p 09:14:39 i hate to say it: but that's beginning to look like a legitimate argument, actually 09:14:45 wish it weren't the case 09:15:15 (that we have to worry about over-weaning isps, that is) 09:15:45 I'm just helping them remain dumb, as is in their best interests to be. 09:15:55 I like a dumb Internet. 09:18:39 *synx* only wishes to have dastardly evil to pass around <3 09:28:23 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-251-241-233.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 09:28:51 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:32:53 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 09:33:30 dastardly-evil-to-pass-around, though, is a good example of something that shouldn't matter whether it's subjunctive or indicative 09:33:43 otherwise, "what do you have to hide?" would be a legitimate argument against privacy 09:34:25 incubot: what do you have to hide? 09:34:27 but when I program in scheme, I don't really hide data like I do in C 09:34:38 one man's bliss is another man's blasphemy 09:34:38 nice 09:35:44 but bliss and blasphemy are orthogonal in a dumb internet; i like "dumb internet," actually 09:35:47 you should claim it 09:36:06 s/orthogonal/indistinguishable/ 09:36:36 I can't really. I copied "dumb Internet" from the phrase "dumb pipes" that net neutrality people bandy around. 09:36:55 interesting 09:37:02 elmex [n=elmex@e180067100.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 09:38:45 *synx* likes what the Cylons have to say about the whole debate <3 09:40:05 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sx5BeFVk1E 09:40:11 that humans don't deserve to survive? 09:42:35 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["Changing server"] 09:42:46 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:43:23 it seems to be a reductio ad absurdum piece, where "specialness" isn't inherent in the bits; but what about bit specialness as an emergent property? 09:44:11 I gather that trying to deal with that specialness when it has not been decoded yet is the crux of their argument. 09:45:13 isn't their argument mainly one about performance? 09:46:20 Mainly yes. Man-in-the-middle attacks take time and resources. 09:46:50 but surely a devil's advocate would point to moore's law 09:47:27 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:47:28 Moore's law is misleading, since a logistic curve looks like an exponential curve if you don't extrapolate far enough. 09:48:21 interesting 09:49:12 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 09:49:21 I'm not a big fan of unlimited powers of technology. Seen for myself how it becomes self limiting once the utility of a particular discovery has been maximized. 09:49:36 We're fundamentally limited by things like the speed of light anyway. 09:52:36 and yet, organisms like microsoft arise to create an artificial scarcity of cycles; staving off maturation for a time 09:53:36 That too... I really don't know how our civilization can advance anymore, with all the new discoveries behind closed doors. 09:53:50 Everyone has to just repeatedly reinvent the wheel. 09:54:59 that's an ancient game, though; even looney tunes have a patent, for christ's sake; and think of medieval monks enslaving an illiterate populace with latin 09:55:09 i actually agree with "information will out" 09:55:28 You can't stop the signal! 09:55:31 heh 09:56:20 I guess I'm just dismayed at the recent backslide then. It happens over such a slow timeframe that it's all I've ever known... 09:57:33 I make enough of a problem for myself anyway. 10:01:29 i imagine it's a process of punctuated equilibrium; the east germans were busy shredding, for instance, when the wall came down. 10:01:37 but they recovered a half-century's worth in a few weeks 10:02:08 (of hidden information, that is) 10:02:57 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:03:36 shredding? ._. 10:03:44 oh okay 10:06:04 DRM is kind of concerning, in that it's retroactive shredding. Could lose a lot of information all at once that way. 10:11:44 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 10:12:15 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:13:49 Just say no 10:14:10 (From the rooftops if neccessary) 10:26:15 klutometis: Is there an import function that I'll discover later, or doesn't scheme allow importing? 10:27:52 renke [n=renke@Lfdcc.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 10:31:20 a1len: like python import? 10:31:47 or more like bash source? 10:33:00 klutometis: Like python import. 10:54:59 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["leaving"] 11:01:17 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-117-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 11:13:58 -!- renke [n=renke@Lfdcc.l.pppool.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:18:37 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:27:24 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:29:58 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:33:38 -!- kraant [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 11:51:06 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:52:31 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:46 incubot [n=incubot@24.205.65.135] has joined #scheme 11:56:25 athos [n=philipp@p54B872B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:59:23 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:05:16 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 12:16:25 AshyIsMe [n=User@118.107.36.126] has joined #scheme 12:20:35 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-49-210.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:32:19 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-54-79.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:32:22 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 12:32:25 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 12:39:11 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 12:46:49 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:57:38 incubot: can you recommend a cure for heart-sickening nostalgia? 12:57:40 Y'see, that's why I want no part of commercial web dev. It's just sickening. 13:05:26 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@118.107.36.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:06:19 incubot: how true are false things? 13:06:21 DB<4> print "true" if "0.0" 13:06:33 thats interesting. 13:06:39 is that desired, mr klutometis? 13:06:53 incubot: if false is true, is true false? 13:06:55 eval (if 'not-octothorpe-T 'true 'false) 13:10:54 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:21:34 GreyLensman [n=ray@76.108.235.51] has joined #scheme 13:21:38 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@76.108.235.51] has left #scheme 13:21:45 elf: i'm not sure if it's desirable; still uncharted territory, more or less 13:24:40 gotche. 13:28:14 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 13:28:19 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 13:30:09 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [Client Quit] 13:31:05 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 13:37:12 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 13:40:26 forcer [n=forcer@85.179.198.52] has joined #scheme 13:40:34 Fnord! 13:41:10 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A352B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:50:28 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:51:47 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B87199.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:33 kraant [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 13:57:11 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.208.31.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:29 incubot: compute the value of truth for some falsity of value. 13:57:32 issues are just stylistic. For example, my version returns the character index rather than just #t, since anything that tests for truth or falsity will still work the same way, but this way you get more information in the event you want it. 13:58:07 incubot: bah, so trivial! 13:58:09 Hah! So, I think I am actually writing a non-trivial Scheme program that may prove useful. :-P It's amazing. ;-) 13:58:39 incubot: get outta here you, newb! 13:58:41 scheme_newb, most of them do. 13:59:08 incubot: you speak gibberish. 13:59:10 speak* 13:59:50 incubot: gilberish? 14:01:14 incubot: aha, the novelty of expression reveals your thin veil if truthity. 14:01:16 then don't forget to M-x run-scheme 14:04:41 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B872B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:19 annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 14:08:33 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:17:30 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 14:19:44 -!- kraant [n=kraant@CPE-58-161-128-2.nsw.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:20:07 sladegen: GIGO, as they say ;) 14:22:31 klutometis: you mean Gerbil In Groundhog Out ;?) 14:41:39 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 14:49:12 hemulen [n=hemulen@rrcs-96-10-19-242.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 14:51:34 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 14:54:54 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:54:57 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A352B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:56 -!- elf [i=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:46 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:04:13 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:17 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 15:05:30 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 15:09:58 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:13:17 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["boom"] 15:14:20 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:14:21 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:17:17 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:18:06 exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.89.129] has joined #scheme 15:19:10 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:19:55 elf [n=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:03 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:25:06 -!- elf [n=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:28:21 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:34:22 elf [n=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has joined #scheme 15:36:24 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:37:33 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:37:33 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:25 -!- elf [n=elf@antenora.aculei.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:26 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.89.129] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:44:36 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:47:48 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:47:59 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:56:55 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:57:12 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 15:57:12 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:59:20 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 16:00:01 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:45 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:06:24 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:11:53 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:13:17 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:14:00 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:14:46 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:03 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 16:16:38 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:16:39 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:16:39 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:06 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:33 ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 16:24:00 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B87199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:24:50 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #scheme 16:25:10 I'm working my way through SICP - what do I need to get started programming in scheme? (compiler for example, interpreter...) 16:25:51 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:31:23 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 16:33:45 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 16:34:23 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:34:33 daedra: an interpreter that interfaces with your text editor of choice 16:35:03 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:36:24 renke [n=renke@Lfdcc.l.pppool.de] has joined #scheme 16:36:32 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:39:48 bsmntbombdood: do you know what interfaces with vim 16:39:54 ? 16:39:57 not much 16:41:15 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:21 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:41:24 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #scheme 16:41:30 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 16:41:57 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:44:14 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:53:24 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 16:57:03 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:31 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:01:05 bsmntbombdood: drscheme is quite slow at evaluating - do you know of a fast interpreter 17:01:45 Have you already encountered a problem with a program running too slowly under DrScheme? 17:02:36 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 17:03:05 Riastradh: well my machine only has 64MB RAM, and the program itself takes up a lot of memory in comparison with vim, so when drscheme evaluates it probably takes longer than it would with more RAM 17:03:30 Yow. 64 MB RAM in this day and age? 17:03:35 just curious as to any CLI interpreters 17:03:49 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:00 You can run the engine of DrScheme without the GUI, anyway; it's called MzScheme. 17:04:05 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:04:40 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:17 Riastradh: yeah thats better 17:07:47 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A352B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:09:30 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless250.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:10:36 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has quit ["leaving"] 17:10:51 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:53 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:12:01 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 17:12:51 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 17:15:31 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.196.72.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:17:15 -!- npe 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It would be in character. 22:15:43 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:15 levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 22:16:38 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 22:16:38 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:14 Daemmerung: thanks for the correction. So I cannot make a dynamic way for calling procedures? 22:19:28 You can use `eval', but you'd be better off using `case'. 22:20:10 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@118.107.36.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:20:51 Daemmerung: well, case is not the option, as I cannot preview users input. 22:21:04 eval seems dangerous... 22:22:09 Eval is a design mistake waiting to happen. It is the ultimate bad code smell. Don't use it. 22:22:41 Daemmerung: really thanks. I'll stik with the macro system used until now. 22:23:51 sjamaan taught me that if I define a variable, include a file, the variable cannot be seen 'inside' this new file included. 22:24:05 Daemmerung: perhaps he should report errors by doing the same thing he does when you say "quote" 22:24:43 I quote HEY RUDYBOT LOOK AT ME 22:24:53 rudybot: quote 22:24:53 Daemmerung: I'll run netbsd on your vax. 22:25:53 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 22:27:43 -!- arthurmaciel [n=user@189.107.139.243] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:12 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host143-63-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 22:30:13 rudybot: quote 22:30:13 mbishop: Let's have a 24 hour news cycle. 22:30:26 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:30:26 rudybot: eval quote 22:30:27 mbishop: error: eval:1:0: quote: bad syntax in: quote 22:30:31 heh 22:33:18 mbishop: YOU KIDS KEEP OFFA MY LAWN 22:34:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 22:34:47 *mbishop* tosses salt 22:35:05 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 22:35:05 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:36:04 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 22:39:45 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:46 wermse [n=nathan@S010600a0cc61ea28.lb.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 22:40:31 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 22:41:17 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:42:05 I'm trying to write a function (evaluate a b op) that will evaluate the values depending on the operator given. It have a cond eq? '+ op which seems to work if i call the function as (evaluate '1 '2 '+) but I need to be able to call the function as (evaluate 1 2 (car expr)). when i do that it doesn't seem to work at all. 22:42:12 kniu [n=kniu@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:42:24 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless250.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:46:04 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:29 ... 22:50:15 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:50:16 --- 22:52:52 -!- wermse [n=nathan@S010600a0cc61ea28.lb.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:52:59 rudybot: eval (let ((expr (list +))) ((car expr) 1 2) ) 22:52:59 synx: ; Value: 3 22:53:54 oh foo, wermse left 22:55:04 rmrfchik you around ? 22:56:13 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:50 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B057770.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:46 http://paste.lisp.org/display/70125 <--- how do i execute that function when i try (display (post '(1,4,+) '())) it returns (1) 22:57:56 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:00:59 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-117-055.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:10 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.89.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:34 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:32 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [] 23:10:14 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:11:10 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #scheme 23:11:27 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:54 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:04 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-152-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 23:20:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:26:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 23:41:21 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.196.72.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:52 Slereah [n=jewbutt@ANantes-252-1-45-102.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:52:32 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:54:28 hey guys. 23:55:14 Hey. 23:58:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-40.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:59:44 a1len_ [n=James@pool-98-119-112-162.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme