00:00:03 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:00:13 I have written recently a frightening amount of code after the manner of round-2.5-into-3. 00:00:32 And while it is true that of the four standard rounding routines, only CEILING will give 3 for 2.5, both ROUND and CEILING will give 2 for 1.5. 00:00:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:23 prestoo [n=prestoo@cs180038.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 00:03:09 Riastradh, I know what ceiling is and I guest is what will would with me. thanks 00:03:30 rudybot: eval (ceiling 1.1) 00:03:39 `rudybot_', arcfide. 00:03:53 rudybot_: eval (ceiling 1.1) 00:03:54 arcfide: ; Value: 2.0 00:04:04 In Scheme48, executing either "scheme-srfi-7" or "scheme-r5rs", how can I open Scheme48 modules? The "requires" clause of SRFI-7 programs only seems to work for SRFI modules. 00:04:21 (and in "scheme-r5rs" I don't see how to open modules at all) 00:04:29 None of the above, prestoo. 00:05:16 Riastradh: Is there then a way to write scripts in Scheme48 that depend on Scheme48 modules, without having to dump heap images? 00:05:32 That SRFI is pretty useless. I don't know of anyone who ever actually uses it; mostly it just causes problems for anyone who tries to install two Scheme systems both supporting it on the same Unix file system. 00:06:49 prestoo, probably the most straightforward way is to write a shell script wrapper: 00:06:55 Well, I kind of liked the "scheme-srfi-7" command: no ugly shebang line. 00:06:56 #!/usr/bin/env scheme48 00:07:04 ...er. 00:07:06 #!/bin/sh 00:07:23 exec scheme48 -a batch < ,config ,load interfaces.scm packages.scm 00:07:33 ,open mumble 00:07:34 (start) 00:07:35 EOF 00:07:45 (`No ugly shebang line'?) 00:09:08 Thank you, that looks usable. Shame though that it has to go via /bin/sh.. 00:09:54 I have been playing with inform7 programming language., it's pretty cool. 00:10:17 prestoo: you can try scsh too, but it's not all that different from what Riastradh wrote 00:11:13 duncanm: Thank you for the suggestion. I have actually used SCSH quite a lot, for many years. But I gave up on it as it does not seem to be developed anymore. 00:11:23 oh 00:11:33 prestoo: i've been looking with revive the project 00:11:58 *duncanm* is looking for someone to have dinner with 00:12:13 After a several year hiatus from Scheme/SCSH I'm now once again reconsidering a Scheme for various scripting needs. Hence my evaluation of Scheme48 for scripting. 00:12:23 duncanm: try a speed-dating service for one of those problems 00:12:36 prestoo: what is it that you find missing in scsh? 00:12:48 Bugs! 00:12:53 No...sorry, that's backwards. 00:13:01 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@ZQ062141.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:13:21 Riastradh: actually, i really need some help to clean up the source repo for nuscsh 00:13:39 I don't mean to get all Little Red Hen, but I'd sure like to see somebody (else) adopt/revive scsh. 00:13:40 Riastradh: i started by importing the scsh 0.57 tarball, so I included all the generated source 00:13:52 duncanm: An active (developer) community, and in the longer run good libraries, a la Perl-CPAN/Python/Ruby 00:14:06 s/good/vast 00:14:12 prestoo: a few of us (me, sladegen, ecraven) talk in #scsh 00:14:22 prestoo: so it would be awesome if you could contribute 00:15:50 duncanm: Wish you the best of luck with the project. I would surely try out any new SCSH versions/forks, but my contributions would be limited to bug reports. 00:16:03 prestoo: well, that's good too, thanks 00:16:24 prestoo: so that's why i ask about what you find missing (features, bugs) from scsh 0.67 00:16:34 right now, i'm looking to improving the command processor 00:17:09 Why do you care much about small changes to the command processor? 00:17:26 Riastradh: because it makes me more useable, because it's one thing i know how to do 00:17:40 Riastradh: i wish i know how to hack the other parts too 00:17:41 M-x run-scheme RET makes it more usable, and is much easier than changing the command processor. 00:17:48 You can learn how to hack the other parts by hacking them. 00:18:02 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 00:18:07 Riastradh: why don't you start hacking on it yourself? 00:18:25 oO 00:18:32 because you don't care? 00:18:46 It is only in my moments of procrastination that I pop up on IRC these days. 00:19:17 Riastradh: what would you think be something that's 'worthwhile' to hack on? 00:19:28 i keep on asking people, because I don't really know what's missing 00:20:03 Riastradh: Have you given up development of Scheme48? Looking at your web pages, and judging by the status of SLIME48 and the Scheme 48 manual it seems like you might not be involved in Scheme48 anymore. 00:20:25 s/me/it/ 00:21:27 duncanm, make scsh usable as a library. Rip out the hand-written C code and hand-copied C constants. Make it run on a more recent Scheme48 VM so that we can use optimistic concurrency. 00:21:56 Riastradh: i've looked into updating the VM, yes 00:22:01 but as you know, it's a lot of work 00:22:04 Riastradh: Did you see my question in #lisp? 00:22:09 Yes, chandler. 00:22:13 *duncanm* is hungry 00:22:13 OK. 00:22:24 Riastradh: sigh, if you were in Boston, we can go get Indian food 00:22:57 *arcfide* just got 3D Hardware Acceleration on OpenBSD. 00:23:00 Woot! 00:23:04 Hrm, sorry. 00:23:24 No, that's w00table. For which video? 00:23:31 Momentary lapse of control due to excitement. 00:23:44 Daemmerung: ATI Radeon X1600 00:23:46 I will stay your execution... for now. 00:28:13 ventonegro [i=alex@189-95-185-66.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #scheme 00:28:44 arcfide: maybe there's hope for my ancient fire gl 7800 and freebsd, then. You're like Jerry Lewis-- you've given me hope to carry on. 00:29:32 Well, I don't know. Check the chipsets and find out; better yet, dump FreeBSD and join the crazies. 00:29:39 -!- mejja [n=user@c-6bbae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:00 The question now is whether there are any games I want to play. :-) 00:30:13 Maybe I'll put a Scheme interpreter into Blender3D! 00:30:19 I've always wanted to do that. 00:31:10 *arcfide* eats. 00:35:45 that's a fun game! 00:39:33 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 00:43:32 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-139-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 00:46:40 a-s [n=user@92.80.103.234] has joined #scheme 00:50:45 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:54:42 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 00:56:28 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:30 Maybe I'll write a Scheme interpreter for Bender! 00:58:47 Bite my shiny metal call/cc! 01:00:30 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:02:23 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 01:03:59 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:05:20 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:08:05 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:08:09 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-202-0.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:45 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.96.122.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:48 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 01:14:29 It's bed time! 01:14:38 thanks again for the help. 01:14:39 I'm off 01:14:41 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-90-13.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:15:48 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-139-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:53 bweaver [n=bweaver@68.59.241.190] has joined #scheme 01:24:07 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 01:24:23 -!- TheBase [n=thebase@152.78.170.193] has quit [] 01:24:45 hey guys. this channel didn't have a description on searchirc... do you guys offer help to newbies to scheme? 01:25:24 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-139-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:56 well, if you do i am having problems with using auxiliary functions and wanted to know if someone would be willing to help me a little 01:26:55 and i'm using htdp 01:28:07 Describe your problem, using lisppaste if you need to paste code, and anyone willing and able to help probably will. 01:29:04 lisppaste: url 01:29:05 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 01:29:45 a1len pasted "conversion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69782 01:30:11 i'm having problems at the end... i don't think that's the proper way to do it 01:30:44 What problems are you having? 01:32:51 well, i think i should use two auxiliary functions at the end, for the last function. but i don't know which two i'd use... so i did it that way, but the next function in the textbook is going to have a dependency on it... 01:33:14 Well, you already have a procedure to convert inches to centimetres, don't you? 01:33:15 can i do it like that? 01:33:24 yeah. 01:33:27 Your code looks to me as though it will work. 01:33:55 The duplication of the magic constant 2.54 is unnecessary, though, when you have already given a name to the inches->centimetres conversion. 01:34:41 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:34:48 if i multiply inches->centimeters and feet->inches it screws up the decimal point 01:35:30 What do you mean by `multiply inches->centimetres and feet->inches', and by `it screws up the decimal point'? 01:35:47 and eventully the entire product. 01:37:10 oh, i mean.. if i run it that way, then the solution to feet->cm 1 is 30.48, which is right.. but feet->cm 10 is 3048 with no decimal... and after that the whole intiger is just incorrect. 01:38:01 Are you sure you get 3048 from (feet->cm 10)? 01:38:10 ti'll try it again. 01:39:34 duncanm, why do you have generated files in your `nuscsh' Git repository? 01:40:43 a1len pasted "conversion problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69783 01:41:24 Well, you just multiplied a number of inches by a number of centimetres, so you got 3048 cm in! 01:41:55 Is multiplication what you want to do here? Note that feet->inches will give you a number of inches, but you want a number of centimetres; how do you get a number of centimetres from a number of inches? 01:42:04 Daemmerung: so what was that loud flushing noise? 01:42:54 I don't know what it was, but it scared offby1's cat. 01:43:13 Yeah, I saw something fly by afterwards... 01:43:18 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:43:44 I'm just wondering whether the flushing was due to Lisp, Scheme, PLT Scheme, or SomethingElse. 01:43:55 oh, i'd divide. that was just a mathematical error. 01:44:09 Divide? 01:44:40 Riastradh: because i imported the scsh tarball directly 01:46:30 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 01:46:34 -!- cipher [n=cipher@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:45 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:50:12 or.. well dividing is wrong... but i would just want to figure the amount of inches from the feet, and then convert those inches.. but i need an operator don't i? 01:50:46 How do you convert a number of inches to a number of centimetres? 01:51:23 multiply by 2.54 01:51:47 Well, you can do that, but you've already given a name to that operation! How do you do the conversion, using that name? 01:52:31 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-9122f0119b0cf220] has joined #scheme 01:53:13 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-139-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:18 it's like my brain has the barrier.. everyone in the east is trying to get to the west.. but the wall's in the way, and there's guards on the wall shooting the people if they get to close... just reference that operation? 01:53:31 How do you write it in Scheme? 01:53:51 Say you have a number of inches called i; what expression in Scheme gives you a number of centimetres? 01:54:50 length in this case 01:55:33 If I write `length' in Scheme, I get a procedure that computes the length of lists; that's not a number of centimetres! You gave the name inches->cm to the operation that converts inches to centimetres -- now if I have a number of inches i, how do I use this operation? 01:55:47 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:58:27 inches->cm whatever the number of inches. 01:59:50 right? i'm still new to analytical thinking. 01:59:57 Suppose I type what you wrote at a Scheme prompt: `inches->cm whatever the number of inches.' Will it do anything sensible? 02:02:33 i think i get what you're getting at. one second and let me try it out 02:02:58 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:03:10 For example, how are you asking Scheme to convert 4 inches to centimetres? What exactly are you typing at the Scheme prompt? 02:03:20 (define (feet->cm length) 02:03:20 (inches->cm 02:03:20 (feet->inches length))) 02:04:11 a1len annotated #69783 with "solution!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69783#1 02:04:52 allen, how would you add two numbers in Scheme? 02:05:32 a1len, OK, yes: that will work. (All I was looking for with my question earlier was (inches->cm i), in which you would then substitute (feet->inches length) for i.) 02:05:54 sweet. i got it. i didn't think, er, remember, that you can use a function as an operator. 02:06:12 but i guess you always do anyway. 02:06:42 and now i'll remember. if you'd have just told me i wouldn't. a socratic-ish method for educating. you should be a teacher. 02:06:47 thanks 02:09:34 really. i'm stoked right now. this clears up a lot of confusion that i had about auxiliary functions. thanks a lot Riastradh 02:10:15 An `operator' is just any form in the `operator position' of a combination. For example, + is the operator of (+ 1 2); fnord is the operator of (fnord (frobble thorp) (zonkward)); (make-adder 5) is the operator of ((make-adder 5) 3). 02:11:27 yeah. and the issue that i was having is remembering that operators you define are legal operators.. that sounds really stupid, but i'm brand new at this 02:13:28 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.59] has joined #scheme 02:15:28 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.103.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:58 duncanm, urgh. You'll definitely want to fix bignums in nuscsh... 02:19:14 Riastradh: i saw that last night as i was reviewing the changes between 0.53 and 0.54 02:19:43 Riastradh: i made a git repo of the scheme48 releases from 0.53 to 0.57 02:22:08 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 02:33:06 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.59] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:34:26 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.58] has joined #scheme 02:35:49 mrtsunami [n=tsunami@gnuteens/MrTsunami] has joined #scheme 02:43:02 viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has joined #scheme 02:43:02 -!- viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has quit [K-lined] 02:45:21 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 02:48:48 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:58:53 -!- ventonegro [i=alex@189-95-185-66.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:59:57 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@68.59.241.190] has quit [] 03:02:49 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 03:04:15 bweaver [n=bweaver@67.161.236.94] has joined #scheme 03:05:20 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@67.161.236.94] has quit [Client Quit] 03:11:54 la la la 03:11:58 *duncanm* is finally at a restaurant 03:12:06 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.58] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:14:52 duncanm: how are you IRCing from a restaurant? 03:15:25 they have wireless and i have a small laptop 03:15:57 http://auduboncircle.us/ 03:16:00 Ah, no smart phone? 03:16:23 eee! 03:16:23 eli: i have a blackberry too 03:16:36 Oh you do, do you? 03:16:53 I should catch you sometimes for some nagging. 03:17:02 all the cool kids are getting the google phone these days 03:17:13 I just bought two of these things. (BB) 03:17:18 eli: which one? 03:17:28 The google phone, as atractive as it sounds, was less atractive. 03:17:38 yeah, i like the keyboard on mine better 03:17:44 DUM de dum. 03:17:56 I don't know, whatever they're selling by default. "Curve?" The one with the normal keyboard. 03:18:06 ah 03:18:09 eli: that's the one i have 03:18:10 (For a very small size of "value".) 03:18:34 How usable is the wi-fi connection? 03:18:34 huh? 03:18:46 Tiny keys. 03:18:47 eli: i use it to make phone calls at school 03:18:50 Big fingers. 03:18:54 => problem. 03:19:05 You have the hotspot thing? 03:19:06 my net connection at home is spotty, sometimes it's good, sometimes not as good 03:19:20 eli: you get it either way, if you pay the extra, the wifi calls are free 03:19:42 otherwise, the minutes from wifi calls are counted on your bill like normal minutes 03:19:43 So you can still make wifi calls without it? 03:19:48 yes 03:19:55 Why would you want to do that? 03:20:11 it's useful when i'm in a building without connectivity, like West Village F 03:20:19 okay, time for dinner 03:20:28 Ah. 03:20:39 OK, I'll bug you later. 03:21:34 BTW, the google phone, besides being the first version which means that a second version which is 10 times better will come out next month, is tied to having the data service thing ($25/month per phone), and will never work with anything other than tmobile. 03:24:17 :-| 03:25:20 My reaction exactly. 03:26:20 are you sure it's locked to T-mobile? 03:26:34 I thought you could unlock it by paying an extra fee 03:26:48 and that it was unlocked at the end of your contract 03:27:00 You're probably thinking of the carrier lock, not the application lock. 03:28:08 ok, I'm confused. it should work with Android Market no matter what carrier 03:28:28 and I thought you could unlock the carrier by paying extra 03:32:36 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:34:14 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["l8r"] 03:44:08 it's also locked because the variant of 3G that it supports is only offered by T-Mobile 03:44:53 hrm, that was a good dinner 03:44:58 a steak dinner, yum 03:48:49 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 03:49:41 I saw a comic involving an imagined dialog between Morse and Bell. 03:50:28 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 03:50:31 The latter was looking quite miffed, while the former said "I engineered a revolution in communications technology. You figured out a way for people to natter at each other across the country." 03:51:23 Wish I could find that comic again... 03:51:58 (When did `dialogue' lose its last two letters?) 03:54:06 eli: PLT Scheme didn't cause the flush. There were dependencies out of our control. It's a pity... I had looked forward to having bits on the big screen (I was in the keynote presentation). A good counterexample to any students of yours who might not believe that Programs can be written with this stuff. 03:54:41 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-3-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:55:20 Daemmerung: what are you working on? 03:56:01 duncanm: right now, nothing! Going to get the Schubert B-flat major piano sonata out of mothballs. 03:56:22 But before, I was writing a demo for WinHEC. 03:56:42 futilius [n=will@user-0c9hfll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 03:57:46 And I think I'm going to learn how to do bump-mapping, or at least a q&d version of same. Would have been useful to be able to do that in this last gig. 04:01:43 .oO("bump-mapping"?) 04:02:30 Daemmerung: a demo for WinHEC in Scheme? 04:02:56 duncanm: Sure. Programs is programs. 04:03:03 Daemmerung: that's great 04:03:22 offby1: (A way to give the illusion of texture to a rendered graphical object.) 04:04:15 duncanm: well it's not like the Powers holding my contract were happy about it... but I was firm. No Scheme, no Daemmerung-code-monkeying-for-your-benefit. 04:05:13 Actually, the test question I asked was, "Would it matter if I wrote [your demo] in Excel macros"? 04:05:43 Daemmerung: what's the demo about? 04:06:08 *Daemmerung* does an annoying mime routine, with the invisible wall and all 04:06:22 *Daemmerung* decides hell with it 04:06:30 A Windows 7 feature. 04:06:58 WinHEC being the "Come! Write drivers for us!" trade show, sort of. 04:07:30 aw, heck 04:08:46 sounds interesting 04:10:50 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:11:43 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-22-117.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:12:47 Wasn't there a pretty significant disparity between Windows Vista "features" and what actually shipped? I remember hearing stuff when Vista was in development about a completely new filesystem, etc 04:13:21 kilimanjaro: that was Longhorn 04:13:36 what is Longhorn? 04:13:55 the planned version of windows that included a new FS 04:14:00 it didn't happen 04:14:31 Well, basically the same thing then, they were hyping a product with certain features and released a product without those features 04:14:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless131.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:16:11 Leonidas_ [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 04:22:56 When stuff doesn't work for whatever reason, you have to cut it. 04:23:04 Daemmerung: well, the counter example will be much more effective if there was something to see... Do NDA's ever expire, or is it a lost case? 04:25:07 Nothing to see unless somebody's on the floor at WinHEC. After Win7 ships (whenever that might be) I should be free to talk. Otherwise -- well, there's always the chance that "my" feature won't make the product cut. And if I talked about it now, I'd apparently be "hyping" per above. Not to mention legally actionable. 04:25:45 OK, so in other words, it's going to be several years... 04:26:56 But if it's on the floor, then it sounds like it wasn't flushed completely -- did you mean that just the presentation was flushed? 04:26:58 I think they're talking 2009. 04:27:23 (Oh, that soon?) 04:27:29 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:33 (And I didn't even get to use vista yet...) 04:27:39 Yeah, apparently only the presentation was flushed. I've been told that it's available on the pavilion floor for folks to play w/. But I only know this nth-hand. 04:27:42 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:27:56 (The hope apparently is to replace Vista ASAP.) 04:28:11 Is it that bad? 04:28:26 In sales terms? Absolutely. 04:28:38 Any reasons? 04:28:47 *eli* is too lazy to look around... 04:29:15 *Daemmerung* doesn't use it, either 04:29:18 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 04:29:30 Personally, I heard horror stories about drivers and such, and serious cpu time spent on making it impossible for me to steal stuff that I own. 04:29:40 It was the security release. And it's too hard to use. Win7 is the get-it-right-this-time rerelease. 04:29:46 Daemmerung: you actually play schubert? 04:29:56 klutometis: well, hell, I try 04:29:58 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:30:02 I can't play Brahms 04:30:16 That bastard had hands the size of dinner plates, apparently 04:30:23 Brahms is generally out of the question; but what about a little Liszt? 04:30:32 No Liszt either. 04:30:40 Buxtehude? 04:30:54 One of my favorite words. 04:31:14 Some Chopin. Preludes mostly. Good wrist looseners. 04:31:24 heh; just laid down a couple tracks with my friend the other day; we arranged the bach sinfonias for guitar and piano 04:31:51 Sweet. Friend and I are revisiting the Beethoven "Spring" for violin and piano. 04:32:04 nice; that's a tough one; along with the kreuzer 04:32:20 Kreuzer is a bastard. I don't think we can hack that one. 04:32:25 Daemmerung: BTW, no public urls of anything by any chance? (Something that I can point at and indicate how scheme is *not* mentioned...) 04:32:25 ever try the brahms cello sonatas? 04:32:46 klutometis: Wish I had a cellist. I'd essay the Brahms if I had one. 04:32:51 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 04:33:04 Send me a cellist and we'll talk. I had one - once - briefly - 04:33:09 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 04:33:33 eli: nothing I can ref w/o violating the terms of my NDA. I am sorry. 04:33:49 OK. 04:34:07 Daemmerung: heh; if we ever end up in the same Stadt, maybe we can read through some Rachmaninov for two pianos, or Brahms four hands 04:34:09 There is no public URL of my demo, in any case. 04:34:43 klutometis: oh, you like it rough, eh? Sounds scary. I wasn't being modest when I said Brahms was too hard. 04:35:04 it's not that bad, actually; nice adagio on a theme by haydn, i believe 04:35:06 very readable 04:35:18 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:35:26 Not like the Sonatas? 04:35:41 no; it's actually for the bourgeoisie 04:35:43 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:35:48 That would be me. 04:35:57 Daemmerung: Well, that was clear, I thought that maybe some generic company link could have some effect... 04:36:10 Anyway, sorry for pushing... I'm Israeli -- we're not good with such things. 04:36:27 eli: no, it's good. I saw the Adam Sandler movie, I understand. 04:36:35 (NDAs in Israel probably look very different.) 04:36:40 :) 04:36:42 -!- travis|away [n=f00bar@CPE-69-76-71-141.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:21 It was kind of ok (in an unsurprising way), but the hummus joke was great. 04:37:24 klutometis: it's going to be nice to be playing again. I've been delinquent for the last couple of months. 04:37:29 (His father dipping, that is.) 04:37:37 And the tooth brushing.... 04:37:42 Yeah. 04:37:56 BTW, his parents, and several other people are israeli actors. 04:38:01 Otherwise, well, silly, but silly is good in my book. What can I say, I'm 13 years old. 04:38:04 Daemmerung: i hear you, man; alternatively hacking and playing cleanses the pallette 04:38:25 Ha! I'm 5 years older. 04:39:35 klutometis: one swaps the keyboards -- I seem only to be able to focus on one at a time. If your cellist disappears, I may have stolen her. 04:40:55 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-185-93.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:41:40 I find that things magically improve when I leave them for a while. A few months ago, I was having trouble getting the Scherzo of the Schubert B-flat to have a proper baby-monkeys-at-play feel - bet it'll dance right proper this week when I return to it. 04:42:13 Daemmerung: yeah; eric raymond used to discourse at length about music and programming: but my libido is only sufficient for sonatas or scheme 04:42:46 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:42:46 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:42:46 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-185-93.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:42:46 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:42:46 -!- seth [n=seth@76-191-139-155.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:42:46 i think the activities are complementary somehow, and hacking corroborates the music neurons behind-the-scenes 04:42:49 seth [n=seth@76-191-139-155.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 04:43:11 I like programming music. 04:43:50 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 04:44:01 I like programming music programming tools. 04:44:29 a match made in heaven 04:45:10 I'm always surprised that I didn't end up hacking Lilypond or its equivalent. So much time spent copy music manuscript long ago. 04:45:11 I still dream that I might get time to revive my music editor some day. 04:45:32 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:45:34 even more so, when you consider that lilypond embeds scheme 04:45:46 klutometis: indeedly-do 04:45:53 But lilypond is not for playing, right? 04:46:09 I'm curious how to conceptualize a repeated melody with some sort of variation. A variation is like a function on that melody. But how to abstract out different variations so you don't have to just retype all the notes? 04:46:09 Just for typesetting, I think. The setting was my concern. 04:46:49 synx: Well, you managed to hit pretty damn close to the nail I hammered on. 04:47:08 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 04:47:11 synx: "variation" is the challenge, and indeed the charm of the form. How we still hear the original during the variant. 04:47:15 eli: You couldn't have solved the problem? 04:47:21 synx: start with an abstraction of melody as form (including shape, harmonic progression, etc.) 04:47:22 You have chosen quite a target. 04:48:08 Well, the idea is that you start with a bunch of notes and perform all kinds of operations on them. 04:48:12 Daemmerung: Indeed it is puzzling. If you just modulate the raw sound wave, it just sounds distorted. It's some discrete function on the source notes that causes the similar yet different feeling. 04:48:15 there's probably a physical analogy with potential energy, etc. 04:48:19 (My examples were obviously all very trivial.) 04:48:28 eli: that's bottom-up, though; might be anti-intuitive 04:49:00 But the thing is that every operation that you do can be recorded and translated to a kind of a program (basically a bunch of function applications with note bags at the leaves). 04:49:05 synx: it'd be hard to characterize a Variation in the sense of my training as a function. 04:49:29 Do you know Beethoven? The Eroica variations for piano? 04:49:30 take the goldbergs, for instance; i'm not sure a non-trivial function describes those variations 04:49:37 klutometis: exactly 04:49:39 Now, if you get to see that representation, in the form of some DAG, you can choose some icons (representing a function) and make them into a new icon (meaning a new function). 04:49:58 Hmm... 04:50:39 Well, yeah, not all variations are functions, but that was the basic idea. 04:50:44 Because one note in the range can have come from two notes in the melody, I guess it would only be a relation, not a function. 04:50:58 i'm concerned that any formal translation will sound like a formal translation; in fact, people speak of the "goldberg ego" because the principle of variation is manifest but indescribable 04:51:23 Daemmerung: if you ever get a chance to lay down some tracks, i'd love to hear them 04:51:33 I just want to know how to write "play this passage, then play it a whole step up on the scale, then repeat that until you have gone up an octave." 04:51:52 synx: oh, ok; that's just a sequence, then 04:51:54 Conventionally, you just rewrite the melody over and over again, with no abstraction at all, just a bunch of notes that happen to be described that way. 04:51:55 And btw, klutometis -- it should be possible to work top-down, but that's kind of difficult with the usual music editors (at least the ones I've seen), things are better with the music programming systems (again, ones that I've seen). 04:52:14 eli: true; top-down would have to involve a novel abstraction 04:53:20 There are also tools that "compose" music, using random variations of many kinds. 04:53:21 Or maybe "Take this passage, and repeat it over a second passage, where each repetition of the first starts with the next note from the second." That'd describe an embellishment on a melody, again normally just written as independant repetitive notes. 04:53:26 But that wasn't my thing... 04:53:41 synx: lilypond has some diatonic translation stuff you could script straight in scheme 04:53:58 Trouble is all my attempts to write a language of that sort of abstraction end up longer than actually writing out the notes... it can get really verbose when you try to be flexible. 04:54:30 synx: Yes, a very rich library is something you must have. 04:54:36 klutometis: Ideally it'd be something a performer could just look at. :) 04:54:38 lilypond has a notion of melody as unit, which you can submit to various filters and translations 04:54:46 All of the systems I've seen had lots of stuff. 04:54:49 lilypond reduces to standard notation 04:55:08 Maybe I'll try lilypond again. It's only 52 megabytes after all... 04:55:48 my friend and i are publishing a version of the WTC for guitar quintet, straight off of lilypond 04:55:52 I always found lilypond's filters frustrating, because they happen before an important conceptual stage in the music...that I can't remember eh. 04:56:50 i think they have filters at various stages now; both at the layout and musical level 04:57:30 I made a few songs in lilypond a few years back. I'm sure it's changed quite a bit. 04:57:54 ok...more like 7 years ago lol 04:58:27 i'm amazed how consistently those cats work; every two years seems to be watershed 04:58:35 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:47 the lilypond developers? 05:00:49 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 05:01:21 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:02:12 yeah 05:11:07 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["z"] 05:11:31 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:12:14 *synx* may check it out 05:15:19 underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:22:38 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:52 _Jordan_ [n=_Jordan_@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:32 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:10 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176192182.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:28 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:31:06 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:32:25 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:33:37 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:33:59 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:36:18 -!- jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:36:21 jdev [i=jdev@panix5.panix.com] has joined #scheme 05:37:56 <_Jordan_> Quick question, if I may... I'm reading through HtDP, and it's using [brackets] in the code sometimes, but it seems like it works fine if I just use parens... am I right? 05:39:27 _Jordan_: you're right 05:39:45 Jordan, there is a long-standing debate on that point. In general, if you replace brackets with parentheses wherever you see them, you won't go wrong. 05:40:18 <_Jordan_> Thanks! 05:41:09 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 05:44:49 scheme treats brackets and braces the same (except you can't match [ with ) nor vice-versa). The distinction is solely for us humans 05:45:24 i wanna start watching The West Wing, but the entire series costs nearly $200 on DVD 05:45:29 and it's a 50+GB download 05:46:31 ror_newb [n=x@DNab422f55.Stanford.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:46:54 in chicken, how do i convert "Hello world!" (in scheme land) into a const char* to pass to a foreign function> 05:48:45 duncanm: is it on hulu? you might want to check 05:48:45 ror_newb: use type string 05:48:51 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 05:49:03 foof: in my define-foreign-lambda ? 05:49:13 yeah 05:49:17 duncanm, why not borrow it from a friend? 05:49:25 gnomon: yeah, i'll have to ask around 05:49:45 Adamant: ah, it's not on hulu 05:50:35 foof; by string do you mean c-string? 05:50:53 duncanm, that reminds me: I keep wanting someone to write a distributed inventory system; kind of like a social network site, only all it shares is a list of "I have these things that I am willing to lend to my friends, or to friends of my friends for whom some X immediate friends vouch". 05:51:17 That would help to make a good deal of my cool dust-gathering gadgetry, music, videos and books useful again. 05:51:59 gnomon: there's a project at NEU that does exactly that. 05:52:14 duncanm probably knows more. 05:52:17 foof: it works; n/m; thanks :-) 05:52:30 eli: really? i don't know about that 05:53:18 duncanm: There were posters on the third floor that I remember. 05:53:45 Something like "10 reasons to use ". 05:54:28 (Now I'll have to actually look for it...) 05:55:28 i'm getting a reallyw eird debug output: 05:55:35 glutMainLoop ; glClear; glPushMatrix; glColor3f; unquote 05:55:41 I don't see a unquote anywhere in my code 05:55:54 and the glColor3f line looks like: (gl:Color3f 0.0 1.0 0.0) 05:56:07 If you don't mind, I'd actually appreciate it if you would, eli. I have a list of people who are waiting for me to get a sufficiently round tuit to do this myself, and if I can pull something off the intartoobs instead, I (and no doubt they) would be delighted. 05:56:42 gnomon: billmonk does something like that 05:57:01 gnomon: I'm trying, I just have a completely blank space where the name of that thing is supposed to be. 05:57:39 gnomon: y'know, you can file the edges off tuits 05:58:31 found my but, left some "," in when converting code over from C 06:00:12 gnomon: found it -- it's called "prestar", but it looks like the machine is not responding. 06:00:17 Perhaps it died. 06:02:12 gnomon: the only mentions of this that I could find are the google cache version of prestar.ccs.neu.edu, and a one-line blurb at http://www.ccs.neu.edu/groups/upe/ralph.html. 06:02:29 -!- _Jordan_ [n=_Jordan_@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [] 06:02:39 Hm. 06:02:46 *gnomon* fires up the software archeology engine 06:02:54 Thanks very much for that, eli. 06:03:04 offby1, what is this billmonk of which you speak? 06:05:09 Ah, interesting. 06:07:17 not really what you want, but useful nonetheless 06:07:22 we use it at work to settle up lunch debts 06:07:36 none of us can quite figure out how the "debt shuffling" works 06:08:19 a fella who used to work with us (eli: I'm talkin' 'bout Zane) had a superpower: whatever task you wanted, he knew the Web 2.0 site that did it. So we wanted to keep track of bills; he found that site. 06:09:13 heh 06:11:52 -!- grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:12:23 underspecified_ [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-010.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:14:14 underspecified__ [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:15:12 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:27 As usual, stalking the people is easier than digging up the software. Google Video has Ober's presentation. 06:20:04 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:25:54 ...and whaddya know, she idles on Freenode. 06:27:11 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:28:44 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:30:08 well, idling wastes gas 06:31:01 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-010.naist.jp] has quit [No route to host] 06:34:30 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:42:19 underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-010.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:43:18 offby1: gas is cheap! 06:45:37 depends on what we had for breakfast 06:45:44 oh, did I say that out loud? 06:45:46 *offby1* glances around nervously. 06:46:29 I was speaking of the kind of gas that dinosaurs make... 06:47:37 Ah, there it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-n3E43M3Y 06:50:03 I detect young children in the house 07:00:44 -!- underspecified__ [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:03:02 foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:11:34 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.161] has joined #scheme 07:13:32 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:20:49 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 07:21:02 -!- ror_newb [n=x@DNab422f55.Stanford.EDU] has quit ["leaving"] 07:21:17 -!- mike is now known as Guest52684 07:22:42 brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:25:06 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.60.121] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:27:33 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:29:51 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:30:04 brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:30:55 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:01 brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:31:08 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:13 brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:33:05 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:35:02 -!- underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-010.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:44:25 underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-010.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:45:40 incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 07:50:18 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-90-13.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:51:04 underspecified_ [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:54:34 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-90-13.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:07:30 -!- underspecified [n=eric@naist-wavenet125-010.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:08:26 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:11:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:18:09 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-90-13.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:22:22 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 08:23:56 elmex [n=elmex@e180069125.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 08:25:47 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 08:31:43 -!- Guest52684 [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:34:09 underspecified [n=eric@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:38:57 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:42:17 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-9-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 08:43:13 incubot: would it be more germane to order datum before label, or vice versa? 08:43:16 Well, a whole group of words where 'a' is used instead of 'e'. Since a while, uses of "its" instead of "it's" (and vice versa) belong to that class too. 08:45:44 incubot: you're occasionally uncanny, but mostly just stochastic 08:45:46 so i thought i'd go to the source; although recharacterising dyn. progr. as a "stochastic multi-stage decision process" is only nominally clearer 08:47:46 -!- malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:36 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:13 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 08:59:41 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:59:45 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:00:03 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-3-102.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:28 athos [n=philipp@p54B86585.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 09:23:07 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #scheme 09:24:03 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:33:32 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:50 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:34:55 -!- cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:36:39 iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179066247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 09:38:32 -!- iion_tichy [n=Bjoern@e179066247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #scheme 09:40:44 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 09:53:25 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:54:45 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-139-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:57:31 Anyone know offhand how to tell dired to expand a whole directory tree? 09:57:56 whats dired? 09:58:10 emacs directory tool 09:58:16 oh. 09:59:03 damg [n=arnie@141.19.145.146] has joined #scheme 10:03:21 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-85aa1e4e3e86ab61] has joined #scheme 10:05:29 mike [n=mike@infedyn086.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de] has joined #scheme 10:05:33 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:05:35 is there a way to check whether an object is an instance of a mixin in plt-scheme? 10:06:00 -!- mike is now known as Guest56121 10:07:16 szgyg [n=luni@dsl5401B25D.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #scheme 10:10:07 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-9122f0119b0cf220] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:25 -!- Guest56121 [n=mike@infedyn086.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:13:22 does anyone know good books on garbage collection? 10:13:41 is Garbage collection by Richard Jones the only comprehensive book? 10:28:44 elmex: many compiler design texts contain data on gc. theres also various online archives of tech papers on gc implementation. 10:30:11 hmm 10:30:19 http://library.readscheme.org/page8.html has a whole section on gc. 10:30:22 its a good starting point :) 10:30:31 oh, cool, thanks 10:31:18 a citeseer search for garbage collection also tends to be fruitful. 10:31:36 what specifically are you looking for and why? 10:31:39 (and afk a min) 10:31:49 i just tripped over my refcounting scheme in my interpreter 10:32:00 i thought i could prevent refcounting on the stack 10:32:21 but the more complicated everything gets, the harder it is to maintain some invaraints about the refcount of the datums 10:35:28 Hey elf. 10:48:03 -!- melito_ [n=melito@c-24-16-193-208.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:57:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:05:24 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:20:07 hi debolaz. 11:20:15 elmex: youre writing a scheme impl? 11:26:18 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 11:30:15 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-157.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:31:32 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:43 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 11:32:32 Daemmerung: christ, did you know dijkstra was a lover of mozart? never would have guessed; mozart was such a giddy cat 11:32:50 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6873628658308030363 11:35:24 -!- Leonidas_ is now known as Leonidas 11:37:07 i cant stand mozart, except requiem in c. 11:37:09 fluffy tripe. 11:38:29 yeah; i would have thought that dijkstra was at least a buxtehude fan, or maybe rachmaninov; but mozart? jesus 11:38:50 he claimed that mozart's thoughts were complete before he set pen to paper; as opposed to beethoven 11:39:13 at least that's how he explained his bias; but then he set down to *play* mozart 11:39:35 ? 11:39:54 bach's thoughts were complete. beethoven's thoughts were semicomplete, and were completed through the act of writing, imho. 11:40:21 Daemmeru` [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 11:40:23 which is why bach wrote such mathematically and musically brilliant works, and beethoven wrote such emotionally brilliant works. 11:40:52 that's probably a fair assessment of beethoven; as regards bach: i made it through most of WTC book 1 and 2, and came to the conclusion that he was winging it 11:41:00 his leipzig cantatas are a different story, though 11:41:22 you think WTC was winging it? 11:41:23 really? 11:41:32 i couldnt disagree more strongly re: WTC. 11:41:35 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:44 yeah; some of those fugues are a mishmash, man; and the preludes afterthoughts 11:41:45 at least with regards to book 1 (iirc) 11:41:51 i dont remember book 2. 11:42:40 for instance, he lacked an some upper notes to complete an exposition in the c-sharp-minor fugue, and trivially inserted bizarre chromatacism to accomodate it 11:42:46 prelude and fugue in c- (i think) was insane. 11:42:51 maybe its c#- 11:43:02 yeah; the five-voicer in c-sharp-minor 11:43:07 i love that one. i forget right now cause its been a while since ive heard it ever since that cd got stolen. 11:43:10 yeah. 11:43:10 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 11:43:26 it's deep; but like i said: he ran out of notes on the harpsichord, and winged it 11:43:29 elf: yes, a scheme impl is what i'm writing 11:43:43 ah, yes. 11:43:52 viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has joined #scheme 11:43:52 -!- viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has quit [K-lined] 11:44:02 i see what you mean. i wouldnt call it 'winging it' so much as adapting to the limitations of the instrument. 11:44:18 his intuition was so god-like, though, that i'm sure he shat divinity; even on his off-days 11:44:22 (offtopic: wheres the channel log?) 11:44:28 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:30 tunes.org? 11:44:37 elmex: r4, r5, r6, or none of the above? 11:44:46 whats tunes.org? 11:44:46 elf: r5 11:44:50 elmex: good chap. 11:45:35 elf: r6 is too complicated imo ;-/ 11:45:45 elmex: the logs; http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/scheme/ 11:45:47 elmex: you are much kinder than i. 11:45:56 (elf, not elmex. gotcha.) 11:45:59 thankee. 11:46:01 :) 11:46:08 oh, great to know there are logs ;) 11:47:34 my current problem is: i discovered that i can't keep my argument stack NOT refcounting the datums. and it introduces an overhead, about which i'm unsure whether a simple GC won't be faster 11:48:19 you shouldnt be worrying about optimisation until you have at least a mostly-complete implementation. 11:48:55 elmex: are you trying to write it with refcounting as GC? 11:52:32 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:53:03 ventonegro: yes 11:53:17 elmex: how will you deal with cycles? 11:53:24 ventonegro: not at all :) 11:53:39 elmex: interesting approach 11:53:46 i wonder whether it works 11:54:20 it will probably mean that letrec + lambda will leak like hell -. 11:54:21 ;-/ 11:54:41 elmex: I advise you to detect cycles some way :-) 11:54:58 i guess, implementing a simple mark&sweep collector will be: 1. easier 2. more correct 11:55:08 elmex: I agree 11:55:22 elmex: the realtime stop-and-copy is probably even easier. 11:55:26 and smaller. 11:55:32 elf: it's mostly "complete", just some primitives are missing, and some simple syntaxes 11:55:40 ah. 11:55:44 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-80-89.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 11:55:51 elf: stop©, i wonder how i can implement that in C 11:56:05 elf: realtime and stop-and-copy in the same sentence? :-) 11:56:17 elmex: Cheney is easy and correct 11:57:18 hmm 11:57:19 ventonegro: yeah, paper by ... i want to say baker, but i could be wrong. 11:57:48 ventonegro: i always wonder how i should copy my data... as i got malloc() allocated C structures 11:57:53 www.memorymanagement.org/bib/f.html 11:58:00 (btw, worth reading) 11:58:15 elf: the henry baker one is an implementation of Cheney's that uses the C stack 11:58:24 elf: great resource, thanks 11:58:52 elmex: if using a copying garbage collector, you only malloc the heap 11:59:10 elmex: inside the heap you must use your own allocation scheme 11:59:23 ventonegro: hm, you mean i just malloc 10mb and just use it? 11:59:30 elmex: yes 11:59:32 hm 11:59:46 sounds like it could work 11:59:59 ventonegro: how do i know how much to allocate? :) 12:00:11 elmex: a copying garbage collecttor also compacts the heap, so allocation is just moving a pointer 12:00:15 ventonegro: baker wrote papers on at least 4 different gc methods that i can think of offhand. 12:00:22 im not referring to the cheney mta one :) 12:00:40 elf: Oh, sorry 12:00:58 hewitt? 12:01:20 baker 1992, treadmill 12:02:18 baker 1978, list processing in real time on serial computers 12:02:35 elmex: well, you can change the heap size based on occupancy 12:02:55 glerg. if you have a copy of SICP, in the footnote on the page where it discusses the S&C collector, theres a reference to the realtime implementation paper. 12:03:03 but i dont have a copy immediately available. 12:03:12 hmm 12:03:46 if you go to baker's webpages, btw, he has most of his papers on garbage collection and papers related to his work available. 12:04:00 and his writing is quite easily understandable imho. 12:05:06 i also have data from other C libraries that is allocated and referenced by my data structures, if i just use a copying collector how am i supposed to detect taht there are objects that died (as i know touched the ones that are alive) 12:05:22 should i just sweep through the old space after the collector ran? 12:06:18 elmex: you can allocate these C data structures the usual way and refcount them 12:06:31 elmex: outside your memory heap 12:06:58 ventonegro: refcount them? 12:07:22 elmex: well, I understand you can't move them 12:07:23 ventonegro: if the copying collector ran, i got all alive objects in the new space. but whats with those dead ones in the old space? 12:07:38 elmex: what about them? 12:07:56 ventonegro: they maybe reference a C struct which was allocated outside my GC 12:08:10 ventonegro: wouldn't a sweep through the old space be too slow? 12:08:15 elmex: the reference will have been copied 12:08:24 ventonegro: not if it is dead 12:08:48 wait 12:08:54 elmex: that's why you refcount the still objects 12:09:58 ventonegro: ? 12:10:03 xwl [n=user@221.221.150.23] has joined #scheme 12:10:13 wait, we are not taking about the same thing i guess 12:10:27 elmex: you have to kinds of objects 12:10:38 elmex: scheme data, and external C libraries data 12:10:42 yes 12:11:01 and i wonder how to clear references to the C lib data from the scheme data if the scheme data dies 12:11:09 elmex: refcount the external C data, and use a "real" GC for scheme data 12:11:16 yes 12:11:25 that's it! 12:11:34 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:12:11 but if i use a copying gc scheme, i know which objects are alive, and copy them to the new space. but there are still dead scheme data in the old space, with references to C lib data i need to decrement. should i make an additional sweep through the old space for that? 12:13:10 elmex: right, you can't just scan the live objects... 12:13:38 i guess the sweep through the old space is not that slow, compared to the copying of the living data :) 12:14:10 i just wonder whether a mark&sweep collector wouldn't be faster 12:14:47 elmex: you can still use copying 12:15:37 elmex: when scanning live objects, flip a bit on the C data they point to 12:15:40 copy: O(alive-objs * highconstant + size-of-old-space) mark&sweep: O(size-of-heap + referneces-to-follow) 12:15:48 elmex: keep all the C data in a linked list 12:16:06 you mean a kind of generation cound? 12:16:07 elmex: after the copying, scan the list removing dead object 12:16:08 count 12:16:16 yes 12:16:20 thats great 12:16:29 ventonegro: nice idea, thanks :) 12:16:51 elmex: no problem, it's a good exercise :-) 12:16:53 you could just keep an extra dealloc func pointer. 12:17:00 for the external objects. 12:17:15 or just keep them in a separate space than the scheme alloced objects. 12:17:16 elf: my problem is to call that dealloc func ptr 12:17:33 yes... 12:17:40 you dont need an actual refcount, btw. 12:17:46 you just need a lifecount. 12:17:56 one bit, as ventonegro said 12:18:24 run the s&c. anything pointed outside, flip the bit. then run through the externals list. if the bit isnt set, remove it from the list and call the dealloc. 12:18:35 so you dont even have to run through all the space, just the external alloc space. 12:18:41 yes 12:18:45 s&c? 12:18:49 sweep & copy? 12:18:57 elf: I'm glad you understood what I said :-) 12:19:04 hehe 12:19:11 yes, he repeated it 12:19:23 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 12:19:35 sorry, i missed one line of yours, vento. yes. same thing he said :) 12:19:48 (my actual problem is btw. that i use gnu mp stuff for my numbers, which are allocated by the gnu mp lib) 12:20:02 elf: what do u mean wiht s&c? 12:20:09 scan & copy? 12:20:16 sweep & collect? 12:22:28 aaahh 12:22:32 elf: stop& copy :) 12:22:35 lol 12:22:35 ok 12:23:36 oh damn, lecture is starting soon 12:24:07 :) 12:24:12 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@ZQ062141.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 12:26:48 hmm 12:27:14 i'll read into gc a bit more, i guess optimising to a generational GC is still possible later 12:28:09 elmex: copying leads to generational 12:28:22 elmex: what changes is the size and numbers of spaces 12:28:53 hmm 12:30:01 grmbl, damn ACM papers 12:30:20 almost all interesting things are behind that stupid ACM login 12:33:56 elmex: as we say here, scratch your pockets :-) 12:33:59 elmex: http://www.amazon.com/Garbage-Collection-Algorithms-Automatic-Management/dp/0471941484/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1LOERJRF12NVH&colid=25QQE868FU9GX 12:34:01 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4ehm39 12:34:16 I don't know whether this has been mentioned, but everyone should be aware of Wilson's survey of uniprocessor garbage collection techniques. 12:35:29 Riastradh: yes, i found that paper too, it's a great guide 12:35:29 It is concise, broad, and (I believe) freely available without selling one's soul to the ACM. 12:35:39 yes 12:35:53 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:36:10 ventonegro: yes, that book is great. i already read parts of an old version. i'll probably fetch it from the library here 12:37:19 elmex: will it compile to native code? 12:37:26 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:38:50 elmex: http://www.ventonegro.org/2008/07/bibliography-of-programming-languages-implementation/ 12:38:51 -rudybot_:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5k2dtd 12:39:15 ventonegro: it's an interpreter 12:40:24 i prepare the input data to a tree of ops which are executed by a vm. originally refcounting was easy, as static data was always referenced by the ops and thus the argument stack didn't need to increase/decrease refcounts 12:41:15 but when i realized that i need to collect op-trees if i'm going to support eval, the invariant of static data being referenced by ops broke 12:41:36 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:41:56 LiSP is great 12:43:17 damn, gotta go, cu later 12:43:28 thanks for the advice and references 12:43:30 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:43:32 c ya 12:43:33 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 12:43:35 np 12:44:01 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A025D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 12:52:50 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:54 incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 13:17:54 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 13:24:29 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 13:26:28 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:28:29 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 13:30:51 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@79.0.238.77] has joined #scheme 13:40:57 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:44:25 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86143.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 13:45:16 wingo-tp [n=wingo@243.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:45:47 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@243.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:53 wingo-tp [n=wingo@243.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:47:55 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:27 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 13:53:55 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:54:00 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-151.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:54:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B86585.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:55:09 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 13:58:54 on gentoo, mzscheme should be its own package as distinct from drscheme 14:00:05 Elly: you can get mzscheme by setting -X on drscheme 14:00:23 it still builds a bunch of random crap :( 14:00:31 luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has joined #scheme 14:00:36 on a machine with -X it still builds the GUI debugger and stuff 14:05:01 Elly: hmm, upstream assured me they would be the same. I'd be happy to discuss further in #gentoo-lisp 14:05:11 there's a specific channel for that? :O 14:05:57 -!- athos_ is now known as athos 14:06:28 of course :D 14:15:34 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-9-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:16:15 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-3-23.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 14:16:30 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 14:16:37 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 14:17:56 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.150.23] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:35 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:12 wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:20:29 -!- wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:28:31 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has joined #scheme 14:28:39 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 14:31:16 -!- jgracin 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npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:19:32 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 16:24:29 re 16:25:19 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:26:34 exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.5] has joined #scheme 16:26:45 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:28:26 -!- incubot [n=incubot@24-205-65-135.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:28:48 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 16:30:45 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 16:30:59 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-85aa1e4e3e86ab61] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:33:38 Good morning. 16:33:47 yeah yeah 16:33:58 but what you YOU going to do for ME? 16:34:46 Not a lot today, I think. I've got a vicious headache, a stack of laundry, and what looks like a day full of meetings. 16:35:05 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:21 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:37:29 *offby1* dismisses gnomon 16:37:31 Next! 16:38:00 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 16:40:04 I promise two chickens in ev'ry pot, two cars in ev'ry garage, and a power saw in ev'ry basement. 16:40:32 -- oh, a backtick. Tres chic. 16:40:35 -!- Daemmeru` is now known as Daemmerung 16:42:39 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:43:21 -!- xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:59 xz [n=ramana@c-98-228-42-177.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:46:03 -!- a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:46:31 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:38 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:46:54 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 16:47:12 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 16:49:19 a1len [n=James@unaffiliated/a1len] has joined #scheme 16:50:32 levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:50:40 the recent module spat on c.l.s has been quite enlightening. 16:51:34 Did anyone else get a buch of spams at 11:38, or is it just me? 16:53:27 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 16:53:27 16:53:27 -!- names: ccl-logbot levi a1len npe proq xz synthase exexex replor jonrafkind drdo bombshelter13 annodomini GoNoGo kuribas antoszka langmartin jlongster Deformati borism Dawgmatix errordeveloper wastrel ttmrichter GreyLensman foof tizoc luz hiyuh wingo-tp name schme cemerick schmalbe pjdelport AtnNn Daemmerung ventonegro Nshag cpfr hkBst szgyg fschwidom underspecified elmex attila_lendvai MichaelRaskin jdev bpt tjafk2 p1dzkl timchen119 pfo seth 16:53:27 -!- names: Modius_ araujo felipe Leonidas futilius raikov mrtsunami kniu prestoo Mr_Awesome ggbbgg samth leppie kilimanjaro Kusanagi Wardje dfeuer michaelw gnomon certainty|work mqt aquanaut jeremiah rmrfchik pchrist|univ dereine offby1 cky REPLeffect sladegen rdd` Debolaz pchrist tabe Adrinael mbishop bsmntbombdood elias` XTL Cale ineiros_ synx dirchh djjack Elly specbot minion klutometis Deformative vincenz rudybot_ eli sad0ur zbigniew Poeir elf 16:53:27 -!- names: ski_ ricky mornfall kazzmir_ sjamaan tarbo keyofnight saccade merlincorey tessier Khisanth Axioplase_ duncanm r0bby bascule tltstc ctsprsrcl agemo Riastradh dlouhy qebab emma pbusser2 j4cbo chandler clog bunz kalven heat maskd ski 16:54:25 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:54:48 -!- szgyg [n=luni@dsl5401B25D.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:56:27 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 16:57:12 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host54-16-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 17:00:01 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 17:04:53 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:04:59 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:05:33 gnomon: No, IRC spam. 17:07:59 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:59 17:07:59 -!- names: ccl-logbot vorpal gigabytes CaptainMorgan levi a1len proq xz synthase exexex replor jonrafkind drdo bombshelter13 annodomini GoNoGo kuribas antoszka langmartin jlongster Deformati borism Dawgmatix errordeveloper wastrel ttmrichter GreyLensman foof tizoc luz hiyuh wingo-tp name schme cemerick schmalbe pjdelport AtnNn Daemmerung ventonegro Nshag cpfr hkBst fschwidom underspecified elmex attila_lendvai MichaelRaskin jdev bpt tjafk2 p1dzkl 17:07:59 -!- names: timchen119 pfo seth Modius_ araujo felipe Leonidas futilius raikov mrtsunami kniu prestoo Mr_Awesome ggbbgg samth leppie kilimanjaro Kusanagi Wardje dfeuer michaelw gnomon certainty|work mqt aquanaut jeremiah rmrfchik pchrist|univ dereine offby1 cky REPLeffect sladegen rdd` Debolaz pchrist tabe Adrinael mbishop bsmntbombdood elias` XTL Cale ineiros_ synx dirchh djjack Elly specbot minion klutometis Deformative vincenz rudybot_ eli sad0ur 17:07:59 -!- names: zbigniew Poeir clog bunz ski maskd heat kalven chandler j4cbo pbusser2 emma qebab dlouhy Riastradh agemo ctsprsrcl tltstc bascule r0bby duncanm Axioplase_ Khisanth tessier merlincorey saccade keyofnight tarbo sjamaan kazzmir_ mornfall ricky ski_ elf 17:11:57 -!- dereine [n=dereine@217-20-118-50.internetserviceteam.com] has left #scheme 17:13:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 17:14:51 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 17:15:05 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["ugh"] 17:19:51 vasa [n=vasa@mm-179-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 17:24:03 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 17:24:59 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C43E3B.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:25:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:27:09 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:27:18 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 17:27:41 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:04 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:31:13 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:27 eli, something has possessed me (probably procrastination -- I'm on a spree this week!) to read c.l.s, and I've been reading your arglebargle with Aziz. There are two orthogonal issues here: multiple instantiation of program units and the intent of phase separation. Aziz, in the Ikarus camp, wants neither; you, in the PLT camp, want both; I, in the Scheme48ish camp, want intentional phase separation, but not multiple instantiati 17:31:49 Who will stand up for multiple instantiation of program units without intentional phase separation? 17:31:53 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:32:45 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:16 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 17:33:56 Riastradh, you got cut off at "but not multiple instantiati". 17:34:15 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:19 ...but not multiple instantiation (roughly); yet that leaves an unrepresented fourth camp! 17:34:31 it's like a Risk board, with all Schemes fighting for territory! 17:34:42 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless162.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:34:48 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:34:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless162.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:35:38 it's an imaginary part of that game matrix. 17:35:46 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:35:57 No, ventonegro, that's a bit too strong a description. Aziz is fighting for confusion; Eli is tired of confusion and wants it over with; and I'm not doing anything. 17:36:48 Riastradh: may I ask you why you prefer s48? 17:37:37 Scheme48 in general, or Scheme48's module semantics? 17:37:45 Riastradh: in general 17:37:53 Right now I don't. 17:37:58 heh 17:38:15 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:42 Riastradh: if you would start a Scheme project today, which Scheme would you choose? MIT, S48? 17:39:27 Nobody needs to fight for confusion in a 150+ google-gruppen message chain. Confusion asserts itself without any outside assistance. 17:40:03 Daemmerung, well, he started it, anyway! 17:41:10 Well, bless you for reading through it all and summarizing. My eyes started to bleed relatively soon into it all. I should have uncorked a better newsreader, I'm sure. 17:41:15 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:41:48 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:42:28 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 17:43:24 Half of the discussion was just figuring out that people were in different camps on these issues, and sorting out what the cmaps were (which I could have told you about before the discussion happened, but most of those in the discussion believe their camp to be right and the others not worth dignifying by clarifying). 17:44:49 -!- GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 17:45:59 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:17 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:47:57 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 17:47:57 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:49:49 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:38 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host54-16-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 17:56:03 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:57:09 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 17:57:09 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:58:55 Riastradh: I can very easily slap a big "+1" on everything you said. 18:00:28 When I wrote the short summary of some of the dirty hacks I did for swindle, I was really surprised at just how much I don't have such horrors, and how much stuff I can do now without worrying. 18:00:56 The phase separation is the more dominant factor in this. 18:01:34 Anyway, if you find the thing that possessed you, tell me where it is so I can take it to the dark corner and shoot it. 18:03:14 what are the points of contention for the issue of multiple instantiations of modules? 18:04:16 duncanm: do you really want to know? 18:04:39 alternatively: do you really want to ask me...? 18:05:10 Aziz and Will want foot-shooting devices at expand-time. I want programs that use expand-time state to be much clearer on the scope of the state -- in fact, I'd prefer that programs be written so that they can't distinguish multiple instantiation from single instantiation. I don't mind ruling out the use of unrestricted SET! &c. in macro transformers. 18:05:27 (`Can't distinguish' is stronger than I really mean -- but I don't have time to elaborate right now.) 18:06:21 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:07:52 By the way, I don't think anyone pointed it out in the thread, but (library ... (define-syntax foo ---) (define-syntax bar --- (foo ...) ---) ...) doesn't make any sense even if the transformer procedure is guaranteed to exist when the right-hand side of BAR's definition is expanded. 18:08:08 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:08:11 (What kills me is Aziz's argument that goes something like this: in PLT you don't have `goto'; I don't want to impose random restrictions on my users so I leave `goto' in -- and by letting people use something so bad, I encourage them to never use it.) 18:08:33 Riastradh: I did that pretty early. 18:08:46 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:08:48 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:09:00 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:09:00 Oh, did you? I must have missed that. (It is, of course, straightforward to see when considering the mixture of languages separated by phases.) 18:09:22 I had an example similar to the one we had here with a function that is used both at expnasion and at runtime -- then Aziz (and the other guy) made the point that this is only on the repl. 18:09:48 And then I simply lifted everything up a level, which gets pretty much exactly what you just wrote. 18:12:49 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [No route to host] 18:16:51 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:17:17 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 18:18:56 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:22:18 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:37 hm 18:23:46 is there something like Literate Haskell, except Scheme? 18:24:00 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:25:23 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:25:24 I don't know literate haskell, but maybe "mole" is what you're looking for? 18:25:44 http://www196.pair.com/lisovsky/ad/mole 18:26:03 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:26:03 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:56 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:43 literate haskell lets you mix LaTeX and haskell code 18:27:45 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:28:06 ick, that is not desirable 18:28:57 this is XML, not LaTeX :( 18:34:29 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:34:53 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:15 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:35:22 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 18:36:15 -!- luz [n=davids@139.82.89.70] has quit ["Client exiting"] 18:38:53 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:39:35 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:39:45 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A025D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:50 Elly: you mean something like Bird style? No. 18:39:54 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:59 Daemmerung: aw :( 18:40:09 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 18:40:13 It's a cute idea. Rather than a comment character, you have an anti-comment character. 18:40:15 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:40:37 a '(' in column 0 18:40:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:42:06 Just use block comments. 18:42:19 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:31 (which seem to confuse my emacs after a certain point, which is why I don't use them much) 18:42:37 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:09 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #scheme 18:43:46 Otherwise - maybe a preprocessor like slatex? 18:44:50 Daemmerung: also \begin{code} and \end{code} 18:45:28 That would be Sitaram's slatex, I think. 18:46:30 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:48:21 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye now"] 18:49:30 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:56:50 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054F56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:02 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:58:42 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 18:58:42 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:00:47 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [] 19:01:49 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 19:06:45 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 19:07:54 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:07:54 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Success] 19:08:56 -!- Dawgmatix [i=c7aca923@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-48f069d324f2d101] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:09:53 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 19:14:54 mike [n=mike@dslb-092-074-007-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:15:23 -!- mike is now known as Guest71364 19:17:03 -!- Guest71364 is now known as mike______ 19:17:06 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:17:06 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:36 eli, got a reply back from one of the prestar implementors. She's going to put me in touch with professor Sundaram, who may still be working on it. 19:27:32 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:36:04 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:36:44 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:37:09 -!- vincenz [n=arli@li23-146.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:43 gnomon: the only problem is that it's most likely not in Scheme... 19:45:56 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:47:26 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:53:32 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:53:53 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless162.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:55:08 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:55:08 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:56:29 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:06 choas [n=lars@p5B0DC6D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:02:40 exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.5] has joined #scheme 20:03:08 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:04:20 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:04:20 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:51 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:32 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:16:59 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless162.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:17:12 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:18 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:19:29 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:40 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 20:20:16 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:59 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:22:44 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:26:49 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Operation timed out] 20:27:29 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:34:52 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:35:18 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:35:42 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:37:56 npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:38:05 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:43:38 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:34 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45:04 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45:18 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 20:45:54 viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has joined #scheme 20:46:01 -!- viocizgd [n=viocizgd@209.216.196.2] has quit [K-lined] 20:46:15 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:46:28 -!- npe_ [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:47:08 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:48:59 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:49:09 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:45 (start block comment A) (start block comment B) (end block comment A) (we are in language A) (start block comment A) (end block comment B) (we are in language B) (start block comment B) (end block comment A) (we are in language A again.) 20:51:28 Should produce valid code for both languages A and B :> 20:51:32 assuming they don't use the same block comment syntax 20:52:12 Even then it'd work, just the entire program would be one big comment. 20:52:20 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@243.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 20:52:47 or maybe it wouldn't work, if they don't handle nested comments 20:55:40 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:56:20 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:58:18 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:00:53 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 21:01:42 synx: or you could write it in WHITESPACE@! 21:01:51 -!- cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:02:18 merlincorey: D: 21:04:52 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:05:02 -!- prestoo [n=prestoo@cs180038.pp.htv.fi] has left #scheme 21:05:32 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 21:05:32 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:07:28 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 21:12:00 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 21:24:19 Dawgmatix [i=c7aca921@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a679e46166e7b502] has joined #scheme 21:27:29 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:45 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:36:48 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #scheme 21:37:23 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:57 ecraven [n=nex@mk084020166092.a1.net] has joined #scheme 21:44:07 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:45:20 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:50:39 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:25 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:52:24 -!- Dawgmatix [i=c7aca921@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a679e46166e7b502] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:54:06 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 21:54:08 -!- choas [n=lars@p5B0DC6D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:54:26 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.115] has joined #scheme 21:58:10 -!- futilius [n=will@user-0c9hfll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["Futilius exitus"] 22:08:26 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.5] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:09:18 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 22:11:04 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:15:35 eli, it definitely is not in Scheme. It's Ruby, and I'm fairly certain that one or more rails is involved somewhere in the process as well. 22:15:50 exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.5] has joined #scheme 22:18:18 -!- exexex [n=chatzill@85.102.129.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:43 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:19:02 gnomon: Yes, ruby was popular here for a while... 22:21:11 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:43 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 22:27:31 we have ruby people here 22:28:47 i like ruby 22:29:37 i don't know ruby 22:29:48 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.115] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 22:30:01 i know Perl, thats waaaay enough :) 22:30:38 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:30:44 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 22:30:52 by here i mean my place of employment, i don't speak for the channel :] 22:31:32 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["okbye"] 22:33:36 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:36:44 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:09 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:51 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:39:16 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host53-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 22:39:34 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:41:24 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 22:42:59 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:46:13 ventonegro: won't a cheney GC be too slow, due to all the old aged objects that are being copied over and over again? 22:47:10 elmex: that's why generations were invented :-) 22:47:15 hmm 22:47:21 yes 22:47:37 -!- mike______ [n=mike@dslb-092-074-007-166.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:48:00 elmex: gtg now, we can talk more later 22:48:02 elmex: c ya 22:48:07 ok 22:48:10 cu 22:49:33 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host53-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 22:50:19 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["going home"] 22:53:05 the richard jones book on GC is really a bible 22:55:14 elmex: Yep. 22:55:28 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 22:56:20 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:56:50 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:06 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:00:33 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:10:28 forcer [n=forcer@e179198027.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 23:11:37 -!- drdo 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