00:00:00 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-73-186.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:02:53 voidf [n=BEX@bas7-ottawa23-1088817629.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 00:04:09 axodlanse pasted "derive-ply" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69608 00:04:28 can you look at this address . I am actually newbie 00:04:35 and i cant know how to fix iy 00:04:39 it* 00:04:54 i do everything that i want to do step by step 00:08:58 axodlanse, you have (reverse (lambda (x) ...)) 00:09:02 (lambda (x) is a procedure 00:09:17 oooooo 00:09:39 i guess i write reverse(cdr(reverse(map lambda(x)... 00:09:43 right :d 00:09:46 what is poly derivation? 00:10:02 are those coefficients? 00:10:11 let say 00:10:17 we have ((1 . 0)) 00:10:22 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #scheme 00:10:22 1--> coeff 00:10:30 0 --> exponent 00:10:44 ok but 1.2 is not 1 . 2 00:10:48 its 1 + 0.2 00:10:57 like, the number one plus two tenths 00:11:04 1 . 2 is 2 .1 00:11:13 (define poly '((1.2) (2.1) (3.0))) 00:11:15 1.2 is not 1 . 2 00:11:46 1 . 2 2 .1 3 . 0 is 2 . 1 2 0 00:11:56 look, how much is 2 + 2 ? 00:12:03 4 00:12:10 how much is 2.0 + 2.0 00:12:24 4 . 0 i guess 00:12:27 NO! 00:12:32 but there is no summation in there 00:12:34 ha 00:12:37 sorry 00:12:40 do you know what the . operator means? 00:12:41 0 00:12:52 the result is 0 00:13:02 i had assumed you were using . as the cons operator thing 00:13:02 . 00:13:08 yes 00:13:22 ok so is '(4 0) the same as '4 ? 00:13:26 to write list like that i used "." 00:13:40 dunno 00:13:47 '(4 0) is a list containing 4 and 0 00:13:52 '4 is the number 4 00:14:08 4.0 is the number 4.0 (4 . 0) is a cons cell containing 4 and 0 00:14:59 yes 00:15:10 ok so do you understand what im saying now 00:15:40 i guess 00:15:51 4.0 is number 00:16:03 yea 00:16:05 (4 . 0) --> (cons 4 0) 00:16:06 so what should (define poly '((1.2) (2.1) (3.0))) be 00:16:11 you said that right 00:16:19 i mean, I know what it is, I want you to write it 00:16:36 it should be (( 2 .1) (2 .0)) 00:16:46 eehh almost, put a space before and after the . 00:16:48 ((2 . 1) 00:16:57 okey 00:17:07 .1 is the same as 0.1, so you cant have no space there 00:18:21 hmm 00:18:29 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:18:39 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 00:18:49 so 00:19:06 i wrote some new 00:19:11 but i took error 00:19:42 axodlanse pasted "derive-ply" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69610 00:20:02 can you llook at thath ? just one look :D 00:20:44 you still get the error about reverse not liking the procedure? 00:20:58 i took 00:21:00 sorry 00:21:06 i forgot 00:21:20 -!- aleix_ [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 00:21:31 to write mistak the mistake ismap: expects at least 2 arguments, given 1: # 00:21:50 you have p inside the lambda 00:21:55 move it outside the lambda 00:22:34 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180067225.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:18 eys 00:23:22 it works good 00:23:31 good work 00:23:35 i try to learn much more :D 00:23:52 idead is good for derivation polynom 00:23:57 i just think this 00:24:03 i dont read any article 00:24:10 or book 00:24:17 i found this on my own :D 00:24:28 (define poly '((1 . 2) (2 . 1) (3 . 0))) 00:24:44 it is my idea do like that .D 00:28:17 -!- aleix [n=aleix@46.Red-83-61-3.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:50 zhanghong1 [n=root@219.150.3.198] has joined #scheme 00:34:12 hello 00:34:37 hello 00:34:51 -!- zhanghong1 [n=root@219.150.3.198] has left #scheme 00:36:18 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-052-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:42 la la la 00:36:51 that too 00:37:15 who logs in as root.. 00:40:17 eli, ping 00:40:25 I do 00:45:32 eli, nevermind. I was using #'id when I meant to use id 00:48:48 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:49:28 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:51:40 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:31 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:53:45 Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-36-82.aei.ca] has joined #scheme 00:54:01 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-36-82.aei.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:54:04 TheBase [n=thebase@152.78.170.215] has joined #scheme 00:54:06 hello 00:54:12 yeah yeah 00:54:59 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-23-56.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:00:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-144.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:03:36 TheBase: how's the weather in southampton? 01:04:40 I'm learning Scheme and having problems with my code (http://pastebin.com/m3aefba1f). The get_value is working when I try it in the console but when I use it with palindrome_loop it gives me an error on line 9 and highlight the "(-(- (length frase) 1) index)))". Can someone explain why? 01:05:21 klutometis, bad as usual 01:05:54 I put the console results in the bottom 01:07:25 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.162.10] has joined #scheme 01:07:29 (-(- (length frase) 1) index))) should return 5 in the first loop 01:08:01 I think the problem is how I'm passing frase to the get_value in the line 9 01:11:24 blah2345 [i=a@c-67-185-17-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:12:47 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:12:53 :( 01:13:15 :) 01:14:19 Has anyone here actually used UrScheme? 01:15:16 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:16:04 -!- axodlanse [n=hear@88.235.218.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:17:26 I got to go 01:17:31 bye all 01:17:57 -!- TheBase [n=thebase@152.78.170.215] has quit [] 01:18:31 .oO("Ur"?) 01:22:50 No, gnomon. Quoth the web page: `...it probably isn't that useful...' 01:23:02 `Scheme' is too strong a word for it. 01:28:27 Nshag [n=shagoune@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #scheme 01:28:53 Riastradh, that's true; its list of shortcomings is short but telling. Still, I've been reading through Ghuloum's paper again and I really like that UrScheme was inspired by it. I think it's a very good pedagogical approach. 01:29:11 offby1, the page for the project offers several expansions. 01:29:23 The lesson to be learned is: Yes, it is a relatively trivial exercise to make a trivial, useless compiler. 01:32:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 01:32:43 Honestly, given the number of trivial, useless interpreters we've all seen (for languages other than Scheme as well), and how often the performance criticism is leveled at them, I think that lesson could stand to be reinforced. 01:33:46 I'm not saying that UrScheme is useful. I'm saying that it was implemented from scratch in a week or two, and that that alone shows promise for the development style proposed by Ghuloum. Ikarus is another compelling argument. 01:34:18 What does performance have to do with this? Ur-Scheme can do pretty useless things fast. If modified naively to be a comprehensive Scheme environment, it would slow down as much as a typical Scheme interpreter. 01:34:40 It's always surprising to me when I find a "not so popular" scheme interpreter/compiler that is actually good 01:34:50 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:34:56 Like Ocs (Scheme interpreter in OCaml) 01:34:59 Writing a Scheme interpreter is useful for the pursuit of understanding the language better. 01:35:05 (Scheme compiler that is actually good? Can you name one?) 01:36:10 Depends on your definition of good :) 01:37:41 Riastradh, I'm not arguing that UrScheme is a promising Scheme compiler, I'm arguing that its development methodology shows promise. 01:39:51 Can I develop and run useful programs in it, mbishop? This requires that it have some way to organize programs into parts, to develop and to inspect them and ideally to reload them individually, and to inspect the state of a running Scheme system -- even if it involves `compiled code'. It has to be able to somehow invoke foreign code as well, so that it can interact with the environment it is in. 01:41:09 (That's some of what a Scheme implementation -- whatever its architecture be -- must have in order to be useful.) 01:43:05 Riastradh: I'm working on it. Give me 5-10 more years :) 01:44:55 gnomon, that methodology is useful for generating a trivial compiler. If many critical design issues such as garbage collection, continuation reification, &c., have not been taken into consideration while writing the compiler, it's unlikely that the existing architecture will actually work sensibly with them without being substantially rewritten. 01:45:14 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:49 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-209.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 01:46:39 I agree that trying to tack on garbage collection and continuation management without having put in some serious thought during the design phase will result in a terminally bogus environment. 01:46:49 Do you consider Ikarus to be a trivial compiler? 01:47:04 -!- voidf [n=BEX@bas7-ottawa23-1088817629.dsl.bell.ca] has left #scheme 01:47:08 (honest question, not rhetorical or argumentative) 01:47:11 From what I have seen of it, yes. 01:47:14 Ah. 01:48:31 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:53:22 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-33-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:54:19 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 01:54:22 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 02:00:04 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-28-71.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:00:07 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 02:02:25 Gosh, if it goes to the trouble of generating native code, I'd expect at least that I could cajole it into showing me that code... 02:02:47 Typing (IMPORT (IKARUS COMPILER)) and setting (ASSEMBLER-OUTPUT #T) is obviously the wrong approach to this. 02:02:48 Ikarus? 02:02:51 Yep. 02:03:19 I'm sure there's a way. He could hardly have debugged the compiler otherwise. 02:04:50 I wonder by what bizarre heuristic Ikarus searches for libraries? 02:05:10 Riastradh: have you been working on any Scheme projects lately? 02:05:17 No. 02:09:56 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-7544ccafdf9ee778] has joined #scheme 02:11:26 Is it a non-trivial exercise to write a (TRACE proc) macro like MIT's that rebinds proc with something that prints both performs proc and prints its entrance and exit parameters? 02:11:39 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 02:11:40 s/that prints// 02:11:55 s/that prints/that/ 02:12:28 What's non-trivial is writing a TRACE *procedure* like one finds in MIT Scheme, which invokes some rather silly magic to make it work. A macro is trivial, although doing it nicely in the context of a module system is not. (Scheme48 manages this, mostly -- but it's very delicate.) 02:13:36 Interesting; I find trace such a useful procedure that I'm surprised it's not ubiquitous, and assumed it was difficult to do. 02:15:24 Most Scheme environments have some sort of tracing facility. 02:15:32 The details will differ from one to the next. 02:16:17 Actually, Riastradh, I'm surprised how few scheme implementations have decent debugging facilities; you "blagged" (sic) something to that effect, I though. 02:16:22 thought, even 02:17:36 Depends on your defn of decent. All the better ones have something to that end. 02:17:44 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.243.121] has quit [] 02:17:46 gambit, chez, plt 02:17:54 Tracing, at the very least, is pretty ubiquitous. 02:18:17 And if not present, easy enough to add (so long as you don't mind boogering tail-posn calls). 02:19:23 TRACE-ENTRY need not `booger' tail calls. 02:19:43 Naive traces do `b00ger' them. 02:20:07 TRACE-EXIT will necessarily `b00g3r' them. 02:20:13 Need not is one thing, bog simple another entirely. 02:20:51 Ah, b00g@rs. 02:25:54 0_o 02:27:17 OK, I give up trying to make Ikarus cooperate. 02:27:28 That in itself is telling. 02:27:38 Hmm? 02:28:16 I just mean that you're rather more able than your general Scheme coder, and that if Ikarus frustrates you, that alone is a mark against it. 02:29:39 *Daemmerung* isn't surprised to see offby1 in pince-nez 02:30:14 hey! those are $10 Dr Dean reading glasses 02:30:37 That somebody sat on a couple of times. Maybe it was the cat. 02:30:43 or me 02:30:46 I weigh more 02:30:55 That's not what the cat claims 02:31:46 (I wasn't trying very hard to make Ikarus cooperate.) 02:32:06 (It also doesn't make much of an effort to be transparent; e.g., there's no APROPOS.) 02:33:27 Riastradh: not that many Scheme implementations have APROPOS, isn't it? 02:34:00 MIT Scheme is the only one that I know of 02:34:07 Only the ones written by folks pinin' for the Golden Age Of Lisp. 02:34:15 Pre-intarwebs 02:34:16 Not that many Scheme systems have debuggers, breakpoints, inspectors, thread controls, &c. 02:34:46 I don't know how to set a breakpoint in Scheme48 02:35:02 You call the BREAKPOINT procedure, from the DEBUGGING structure, to enter the debugger. 02:35:42 '#{Procedure 6374 (breakpoint in debugging)} ;; nice! 02:35:46 (In Scheme48 1.3 this was broken.) 02:35:50 heh 02:35:55 I'm using scsh 02:36:00 (...because of a willy-nilly introduction of SRFI 35 into the system.) 02:36:14 Riastradh: have you ever done any work on the command processor in scheme48/scsh? 02:36:18 (So to fix it you have to type: ,in debugging (define (breakpoint . args) (command-loop (cons 'breakpoint args))) ) 02:37:01 I have hacked it up a little. Mostly I concluded that it is not very flexible, although the ideas in it are. 02:37:17 Riastradh: do you have any of the patches around? 02:37:22 Patches? 02:37:31 Riastradh: of your changes 02:39:11 I don't remember any in particular that would be useful to anyone. Most of the changes preceded SLIME48. 02:39:23 Riastradh: i'm thinking of modifying it to work with a READ-LINE function, so that I can plug in a line-editing READ-LINE to enable line editing and history 02:39:39 as it is, the inner loop is a bunch of READ-CHARs and so on 02:40:10 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #scheme 02:40:59 duncanm: tried rlwrap? 02:41:28 or did you want something sex(p)ier than that? 02:41:28 Daemmerung: i wrote a version in Scheme 02:41:36 terminfo and all that 02:41:46 but i never bothered to get it all plugged in 02:42:23 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 02:44:33 duncanm, so replace scheme/env/read-command.scm with your READ-LINE. 02:45:25 Riastradh: exactly, i was gonna change REALLY-READ-COMMAND to use my READ-LINE 02:46:06 or maybe send in a string-port that comes from my READ-LINE as the i-port, instead of using CURRENT-INPUT-PORT 02:49:37 OK. Do it, then! It's not particularly hard. To build it, you just need to run `make image', assuming you're using a distribution tarball which has an initial image. 02:50:14 that's the plan 02:50:24 Daemmeru` [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 02:50:32 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:40 *Riastradh* vanishes. 02:55:37 *gnomon* takes Riastradh's seat and sandwich 02:55:44 Ewww, it's got cat hair in it. 02:55:58 *gnomon* carefully tucks the leftover sandwich under Riastradh's keyboard 02:56:38 Ewww, it's all soggy now, there's a stale cup of tea there! 02:59:50 *offby1* helpfully pours soap flakes over the keyboard 03:00:29 Elly_ [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:01:03 vkm_ [n=vkm@EVIL-DEMON.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:01:20 -!- Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:20 -!- djjack_ [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-016-166.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:21 -!- vkm [n=vkm@EVIL-DEMON.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:15 Anybody here know Postscript? 03:05:22 -!- Daemmeru` is now known as Daemmerung 03:05:25 A little bit. 03:05:46 Does foo bar div calculate (/ bar foo), or (/ foo bar)? 03:06:14 can't you Try It And See? 03:06:28 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:06:30 Fine idear, but I don't have one handy. 03:06:44 Am reading some PS code. 03:08:28 It's (/ foo bar) 03:08:43 foof: Thanky. 03:08:47 djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-016-166.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:09:17 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:29 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #scheme 03:09:37 Daemmerung: It works the same way as Forth, or RPN 03:14:41 somehow that seems wrong. 03:15:04 I'd have expected it A B C D div to be equivalent to (/ D C B A) 03:15:08 but perhaps I'm naïve. 03:15:39 although I guess div must be constrained to a fixed number of arguments 03:15:45 ... "two" being the sensible number 03:15:51 Exactly 03:15:52 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:16:10 So you get A B (/ C D) 03:16:21 And my first take was just what yours was. 03:16:51 we've been brainwashed 03:19:25 Hmm, I guess they _do_ look like pince-nez 03:20:01 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 03:20:23 o^o| <-- a lorgnette 03:20:50 Hi guys, please tell me I am wrong, and that there is a way in the R6RS module system to export every function that was either defined in the module or imported into. 03:23:51 -!- Elly_ is now known as Elly 03:24:10 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:24:23 Like the PLT (all-defined-out)? Not in R6. 03:25:23 But I don't use R6, so I can't claim any authority. 03:25:23 Daemmerung: are you calling me Edward Everett Horton? Well? ARE you?! 03:26:06 Daemmerung: Exactly. Oh well, that is what I thought. I guess I could just type out every function but set! in the base library. 03:28:19 Have fun with that! 03:28:27 Make sure to make your voice heard when R7RS comes around. 03:28:28 offby1: Of course I would never do such a thing. I call you... Yohn Yacob Yingleheimer Schmidt. 03:29:00 *gasp* 03:29:09 I've never heard anyone but my Dad utter that name 03:29:22 he uses "J"s instead of "Y"s but other than that ... 03:29:32 You've been outed. You must now move to Ballard. 03:29:44 actually, I think it's _you_ who must move to Ballard 03:29:59 Oh, no, sir, after you. I insist. 03:30:14 apres tois, Alphonse 03:30:26 melito [n=melito@c-24-16-193-208.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:28 toujours gai, Archy 03:30:37 *offby1* smells an over-40 03:30:41 confess 03:30:48 gnomon: Will do my brother. 03:30:51 *Daemmerung* cracks an ice-cold 40 03:31:02 chillin' 03:31:30 It's true. I was the third nerdy white guy from the left in BREAKIN' II. 03:32:03 *offby1* puts BREAKIN' II on his Netflix queue, and moves it to the top 03:33:00 It's not to say concatenative languages don't have a list syntax. The [ and ] are themselves like functions, so [ means "mark the start of a list" and ] means "collect elements until the mark, and push a list atom as a result" 03:33:12 So you could define a [ 2 3 4 5 ] list-div if you wanted. 03:33:17 huh 03:33:30 they've got some kinda lambda, too, don't they? Kinda like Smalltalk's { and } ? 03:33:34 Or even | 2 3 4 5 list-div, if the latter had an implicit list closure. 03:33:41 synx, you're gabbling in the wrong channel again. That means you buy the next round. 03:33:45 But I think [ and ] is clearer. 03:34:15 gnomon: sorry :p 03:34:15 offby1: I don't know about lambda... but anyway. 03:34:55 Don't apologize! Mine's a Mill Street coffee porter, thanks. 03:35:08 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:35:35 Deschutes Obsidian Stout here. Speaking of... I should go get one. 03:35:58 Chimay White, but my wife glares at me when I drink it (it's hers, you see) 03:36:40 *Daemmerung* returns with brew. Happy happy 03:37:16 I love the Chimay, but it knocks me on my ass. Not for coding. (but then, neither is having irc open nearby) 03:43:19 offby1, how much does that cost? 03:43:44 US$9/750ml more or less 03:47:13 offby1: the lambda in Smalltalk is delimited by []s 03:47:24 offby1: (lambda (x) x) is [:x | x] in Smalltalk 03:48:03 Very good. First postfix, then infix, here in the prefix channel. 03:52:38 -!- Kusanagi [n=Motoko@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:52:39 Motoko-Kusanagi [n=Motoko@71-14-81-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:56:01 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:00 ...this is kind of cool. It's been far too long since I learned a new language. 03:57:19 ("Learned" is overstating it, but whatever.) 03:57:26 MK|T61 [n=Motoko@71-14-81-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 03:58:46 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:59:06 -!- MK|T61 [n=Motoko@71-14-81-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has left #scheme 03:59:23 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-64-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 04:01:14 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-7544ccafdf9ee778] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:11 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-185-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-209.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 04:32:51 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 04:33:06 Daemmerung: which language? 04:38:13 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 04:39:08 English 04:43:29 -!- goedel [i=steffen@pdpc/supporter/professional/goedel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:44 -!- blah2345 [i=a@c-67-185-17-84.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:47:29 duncanm: Postscript 04:48:09 Daemmerung: how have you been learning it? which book? 04:49:07 Reading code. PS Language Reference. "Thinking in PostScript". Not really learning it to write in it, just picking up enough to read code in it. 04:50:55 It's one thing to follow enough of a language to know why the policeman is shouting at you, and another thing entirely to be able to express yourself fluidly. Not aiming for the latter level of facility. 04:52:47 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:55:32 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:55:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0519.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:58:45 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:37 -!- travis|away is now known as travisbemann 05:04:31 Daemmerung: he's shouting at you because you're a Jew. 05:04:36 isn't that always the way? 05:04:38 karlw [n=karl@c-71-204-150-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:05:23 Hmm... Guile-Gnome looks promising. 05:05:42 karlw: yes, that's what they all say ... before they harden and get cynical 05:06:21 Mr_Awesome_ [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 05:08:47 I'm almost done with SICP, so I guess I'm naive... 05:09:49 Chapter 5 will further delude me. 05:11:19 It's probably good I'm a math major. 05:11:42 It would be even better if you were a drum major. But we'll take what we can get. 05:12:04 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 05:13:00 All the CS majors (I'm at UC Berkeley) think I'm insane. 05:13:53 But I don't care, I can still be an idealistic Scheme programmer. 05:14:07 I can't imagine they're too far from the truth, what with attending Berkeley and all. 05:14:27 Someday your heart will be as bitter and black as offby1's. Hopefully that day is yet far off. 05:14:56 worx 4 me 05:15:22 rudybot_: quote 05:15:23 Daemmerung: Let's think up horrible things to do to the OpenLDAP people. 05:15:56 SICP is our first course, hopefully they're just resentful. 05:16:06 I suggest that we blend them down to soup-like homogeneate in a matter of seconds. 05:16:14 Hee. 05:17:29 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:17:58 karlw: what's insane? 05:18:07 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 05:18:52 daemmerung: bittero n what? 05:18:55 Insane is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. 05:19:14 I see that you're in a philosophical mood, BW^-. 05:19:27 :) 05:19:33 actually i have been structuring code all night 05:19:33 I suggest a stiff drink, followed by another, up til the mood subsides. 05:19:36 time's 06:17 CET 05:19:44 hehe 05:19:51 Oh. In that case, s/philosophical/homocidal/ 05:19:57 been an admirable night. 05:19:59 *gnomon* moves away from BW^- on the bench, there 05:20:09 Indeed. I often admire nights. 05:20:11 uh. 05:20:16 All that shiny armour and hefty weaponry. 05:20:28 there's something with the wide spectrum city noise that's away between 01 and 06 05:20:31 good for intellectual processing 05:21:01 One of the charms of being a country mouse instead of a city mouse. Very little of that noise. 05:21:22 daemmerung: you on countryside? where? 05:21:39 North central Washington State, USA 05:21:45 nice! 05:22:07 wait, westcoast? 05:22:12 But I did suggest migrating (or porting) the Squeak hierarchy to Scheme semantics, making it totally support the Squeak environment (via code migration and a Squeak bytecode compiler written in Scheme), and writing a self-hosting kernel that can be translated into machine code by a Scheme program. 05:22:13 close to seattle? 05:22:38 karlw: do you know schemers in the Bay? 05:22:51 West coast, yes. And yes, pretty close to Seattle: about 3 1/2 hours by highway. I'll make that drive tomorrow. 05:22:54 ..area.. 05:22:57 Does that qualify as "insane?" 05:23:11 Not until you do it. 05:23:17 karlw: no, we expect better from you. :-) 05:23:21 karlw: I don't think so. I played with that for a while. Burned out on Squeak. 05:24:35 Did you implement a graphics HAL for CH5SICP architecture emulation in it yet? 05:24:44 Hardly. 05:25:15 I got bored/annoyed/burned out and dropped the project a ways into the compiler. 05:25:52 If you have more tenacity (or less irritation with Squeak) that me, go for it. 05:26:27 BW^-: Do you have any crazier ideas? 05:26:39 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176210235.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:48 Than my proposal. 05:26:50 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176208002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:28:02 karlw: you mean, in general? 05:28:08 any CS software project? 05:28:26 Scheme-based 05:28:41 may it be about extending a Scheme environment? 05:29:06 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:29:32 Okay. 05:29:32 i take that as a yes. :) 05:29:52 :-) 05:29:56 then, my suggestion is that you take any incremental Scheme compiler - or build one from scratch, but i don't think that's necessary - 05:30:15 yes... 05:31:12 please continue 05:31:18 and then you add rather typical OS features to it, such as GUI stuff, privileges - 05:31:50 and check how you can take the current paradigm of mouse/keyboard/computer screen computer-human interaction to the next level. 05:33:06 That's kind of the point of my idea. 05:34:20 how? 05:34:55 I know Brian Harvey (if anyone's a proud user of UCBLogo) and he considers my ideas crazy. 05:35:31 BW^-: Do it in Sch-Squeak. 05:36:08 what are you up to, really? 05:36:12 i mean, effectively? 05:36:24 "The real romance is out ahead and yet to come. The computer revolution hasn't started yet. Don't be misled by the enormous flow of money into bad defacto standards for unsophisticated buyers using poor adaptations of incomplete ideas." - Alan Kay 05:36:24 hehe 05:37:21 I'll finish my math degree and deliver pizza for the rest of my life. 05:37:45 is that your grand vision and goal? 05:38:43 or, to put it the other way around, what do you really like? 05:39:13 Unless mathematicians, educational psychologists, and CS theorists lead the revolution and seize state power. 05:39:58 karlw: hey, why didn't we know this spring, i was in the Valley then 05:40:20 not a schemer, except P.G. and the guy from Scribula 05:40:27 ..and another guy. 05:40:35 ..and mccarthy on stanford 05:41:15 I like Analysis and *cough*Algebra*cough* 05:41:25 ? 05:42:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_algebra 05:43:03 sure 05:44:47 what's your idea on scheme/squeak? 05:46:04 Port the Squeak environment to use Scheme rather than Smalltalk forms. 05:46:14 ok 05:46:17 what is the benefit? 05:46:53 Maybe, port TeXmacs to it. 05:48:05 http://www.texmacs.org 05:49:21 I'm interested in how extension languages can help disabled people in education who need accessible software. 05:51:01 k 05:52:57 "Ideally," it should all be free software developed so you can extend it to work with whatever you need. It "seems" practical to make TeXmacs use Logo by writing a Logo interpreter for Guile. 05:53:49 ok 05:53:55 gtg. speak later! 05:56:39 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.162.10] has quit [] 06:11:30 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:11:56 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 06:12:02 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:59 -!- karlw [n=karl@c-71-204-150-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 06:17:05 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-122.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:22:45 harshrc [n=harshrc@c-65-96-221-139.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:33:11 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-e1bb2192b6186648] has joined #scheme 06:37:58 foof [n=user@clair12.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:39:25 airbrush [i=airbrush@216-237-193-102-access.northstate.net] has joined #scheme 06:50:39 raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:55:48 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:26 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 07:16:25 -!- airbrush [i=airbrush@216-237-193-102-access.northstate.net] has left #scheme 07:29:34 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:45:13 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [""bye bye ...""] 07:47:26 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has joined #scheme 07:48:35 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:48 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has joined #scheme 07:50:26 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:34 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:52:22 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has joined #scheme 08:12:31 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0560A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:27:43 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A098A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:32:52 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:20 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:34 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 08:43:11 -!- melito [n=melito@c-24-16-193-208.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:58:47 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0560A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:05 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-23-56.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:01:34 -!- harshrc [n=harshrc@c-65-96-221-139.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:58 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 09:07:44 DKK1 [n=DKK@dsl-243-29-100.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:08:19 -!- DKK1 [n=DKK@dsl-243-29-100.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 09:08:41 -!- raikov [n=igr@81.153.145.122.ap.yournet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:12 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 09:12:28 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 09:13:30 *Arelius* sighs 09:13:31 Common lisp (allegro in particular) is beginning to look particularly alluring. 09:13:37 Library wise that is. 09:14:08 -!- leppie_work [n=DKK@196.211.225.67] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:15:22 You get what you pay for. 09:15:38 but eventually the open source stuff sould compete, yeah? 09:15:40 also CL makes up for that attraction librarywise in other ways.. 09:15:45 indeed 09:15:58 programmable programming languages are nice 09:17:03 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8376a8f0c94406f] has joined #scheme 09:17:22 I agree 09:17:56 But, when I have to jump through this many hoops to just load a simple jpeg 09:17:56 a lot of people i talk to don't agree that it is a good idea to make the language extensible. they prefer the rigidness of c# or java 09:18:00 on the one hand, r6rs is a little bit more CL-y 09:18:17 rigidness is weak 09:18:20 merlincorey: the problem is I don't like CL-y 09:18:34 just that Common Lisp seems to have better library support 09:18:40 merlincorey: they argue that static type checking is the only way to guarantee no runtime errors 09:18:42 when you get down to it, languages are programs, too. When you use and write programs you want them to be easily extensible or you find yourself frustrated with them, inevitably 09:18:48 And Allegro Cache is really appealling. 09:18:51 (though you can very well statically typecheck scheme for a lot of cases) 09:19:03 Arelius: what does that do? 09:19:17 yeah and if you really want good type checking there's that exotic lady Haskell 09:19:29 she's strange and fast 09:19:59 ecraven: AllegroCache? it's a great native scheme ACID compliant high-performance database/object persistance 09:20:31 Haskell is ugly 09:20:44 There is ML too... which is also ugly 09:21:09 I would certainly prefer a statically typed lisp 09:21:28 if you declare your types, lisp can check a lot 09:23:14 ? 09:23:48 But that's only part of it, type inference is beautiful, and then there is the optimization that can be done. 09:23:50 dirchh [n=user@jimi.Informatik.Uni-Tuebingen.De] has joined #scheme 09:24:35 there's a project for typechecking erlang 09:24:52 PLT has typechecking at module boundaries. 09:25:00 same as erlang, i think 09:26:04 erlang? 09:27:15 i heard a talk about type inference in erlang modules 09:27:18 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:27:28 erlang isn't a lisp?! 09:27:42 no, but it is similar to scheme in a lot of ascpets 09:27:44 aspects 09:27:54 hmm, sure 09:28:45 erlang can be embedded in lisp 09:29:47 Sure 09:29:59 but doesn't really help with typechecking in lisp 09:34:33 EoPL might a little 09:34:55 ? 09:36:00 http://www.eopl3.com/ 09:39:07 hmm 09:44:25 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #scheme 09:50:26 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 09:54:02 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 09:56:46 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:04 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 09:59:00 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:59:49 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 10:00:24 morning 10:03:00 benny [n=benny@i577A0519.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 10:06:54 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #scheme 10:08:59 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-e1bb2192b6186648] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:29:04 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 10:33:34 elmex [n=elmex@e180068177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:46:22 -!- foof [n=user@clair12.naist.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:49:47 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:57:00 -!- underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-122.naist.jp] has quit [] 11:02:35 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:39 reified [n=Platonic@z248.61-115-64.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:14:47 -!- reified [n=Platonic@z248.61-115-64.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 11:15:54 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has joined #scheme 11:28:13 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 11:28:38 reified [n=metalumi@z248.61-115-64.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 11:29:52 lisppaste: url 11:29:57 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 11:36:47 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 11:37:16 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 11:49:32 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 11:54:57 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:00:03 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["6121"] 12:04:45 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8376a8f0c94406f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:10:09 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-72e99e044a36f2ca] has joined #scheme 12:10:12 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10:45 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #scheme 12:12:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 12:15:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:17:22 incubot: cheese 12:17:24 cheese and tomato and saland creamed 12:17:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-184-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:17:43 incubot: wine 12:17:46 you can get IE to work with Wine these days. 12:19:58 incubot: spagetti sauce 12:20:00 garlic + that thing with garlic that looks greenish + that thing they add to bread sometimes makes great pasta sauce 12:20:35 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:21:03 incubot: greek salad 12:21:05 greek has changed less than you'd expect since ancient times, too. 12:21:54 incubot:grilled chicken 12:21:56 grilled melon, roasted muffins, and chocolate chip and broccoli pizza 12:22:21 incubot: there is a pool of saliva collecting on my keyboard. 12:22:23 I favour not garbage collecting, and just arranging for the program to crash when it runs out of space. The heap will be freed when the program is restarted by the user. 12:23:10 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [""bye bye ...""] 12:24:10 -!- reified [n=metalumi@z248.61-115-64.ppp.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:34:34 fdr- [n=fdr@76-191-209-5.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 12:38:10 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.109.191] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 12:59:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:03:25 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:03:49 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:03:57 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 13:04:41 incubot: there's stuff embedded in the concrete, yes? 13:04:43 seriously, i saw him give a very well reasoned talk against patents to a large group of programmers at my university. it was full of concrete examples, very convincing. 13:06:06 -!- travisbemann is now known as travis|away 13:06:18 incubot: banana split 13:06:21 Banana is S-expression->byte stream serialization. Jelly is object->S-expression serialization. 13:06:49 incubot: so what's banana jelly like? 13:06:52 I imagine mint jelly is a little better by the multiple spoonful than that fake apple caremel dip. *shudder* you eat more than two or three spoons of that stuff, and suddenly it tastes, quite literally, like glass cleaner. 13:07:31 whose toy is this? 13:08:40 klutometis 13:09:32 Yes, I just found that in the logs. 13:09:57 It looks to me as though it grabs entries from the channel logs, over the past n years, based on matching words in queries. 13:10:15 incubot: call/cc? 13:10:18 (define (read-file file) (call-with-input-file file (lambda (port) ;; not wanting to use lots of lines on IRC 13:10:42 well, this is pretty useless 13:23:28 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 13:53:39 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-56-82.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 13:55:08 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-33-189.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 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[n=cracki@41-077.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 18:11:06 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:11:09 bweaver_ [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:13:51 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:14 Now that's wootworthy 18:17:43 hmm, i don't know how to change an input port to an output port in scheme48 18:18:14 but some many problem area's, many quick fixes (in C#) are not tail calls :( 18:18:17 ahh 18:19:03 i have an assembly i where I do post process it, adding tail calls where I can 18:19:14 but it does not work so well in general :| 18:21:00 Axioplase [n=Pied@79.248.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #scheme 18:22:58 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:23:21 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 18:23:40 -!- 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[n=gigabyte@host42-232-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:53:47 Riastradh: what's the difference between open and access in the module language? 18:54:24 OPEN makes the bindings available ordinarily. ACCESS makes them available only through qualified STRUCTURE-REF references. 19:08:16 why are macroes context dependent? :( 19:09:15 top level expansion and "in context" expansions seem to differ 19:09:52 Axioplase: aren't you capturing unwanted variables? 19:11:11 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:14 no 19:12:22 my question should rather be "how can a macro exéand in two or more sexps?" 19:12:30 expand 19:13:27 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 19:14:04 It doesn't, and you don't really want it to; instead you have a different problem whose solution you currently believe will be found by solving this subproblem, as a consequence of which belief you are withholding information about the real problem. 19:15:03 So, what are you really trying to accomplish here? 19:15:47 step by step writing of a macro: 19:17:15 (toto a-x) then (totos list-of-xs) and (totos-in-context) 19:18:12 Basically each macro is called by the one on its right 19:18:16 Sorry, what is `toto'? 19:18:21 Can you please make sense? 19:18:54 a macro I'm writing (or have written) 19:20:36 It's just about splitting a hard task in several smallest ones, but it doesnt compose well 19:21:17 (slow typing, learning dvorak) 19:22:41 Why don't you either explain the task that you are actually trying to do, or describe in English words (words other than `toto', for exapmle) the gist of what you are trying to accomplish? 19:22:49 `Example', even. 19:24:26 wait 19:25:04 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:00 Axio pasted "macmac" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69648 19:26:38 What's wrong with BEGIN? 19:26:39 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has left #scheme 19:27:15 nothing 19:27:22 (And why are you using DEFINE-MACRO?) 19:27:46 just that top level expansion gets rid of it 19:28:25 To be precise, it is merged into one large top-level sequence, because of the semantics of BEGIN (namely, (BEGIN .a. (BEGIN .b.) .c.) is equivalent to (BEGIN .a. .b. .c.)). 19:28:30 (because I'm doing code transformation) 19:28:48 yes I know 19:30:08 -!- Adrinael_ is now known as Adrinael 19:30:09 I just wish this could happen everywhere, especially implicit ones 19:30:42 implicit BEGINS 19:32:44 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:33:01 The solution is to adapt the caller with UNQUOTE-SPLICE, but I'd like the callee to be able to do it 19:33:58 No, you don't, because that would make macros have highly unpredictable results. You want to find a better way to solve your problem, which for some reason still not apparent you still wish to avoid divulging the least detail about. 19:34:33 and why are you using DEFINE-MACRO, again? 19:34:37 it's just a remark, eh 19:37:33 because I don't know how to achieve (define-macro (foo . x) `(map cons x (iota (length x)))) with define-syntax 19:37:57 ,x and ,(iota x) 19:38:08 argh 19:38:34 (define-macro (foo . x) `,(map cons x (iota (length x)))) 19:39:13 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:41:08 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 19:44:10 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:19 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 19:47:55 Riastradh: can this be done? 19:48:01 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:48:37 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #scheme 19:49:11 Not transparently, because, as I said, it makes macros highly unpredictable. You will have to change the caller. 19:50:52 How? 19:51:59 How can I create a symbol or do any compustation? 19:52:19 If macros can splice, they can change the interpretation of *other* forms, outside the macro invocation. 19:54:43 no splice in (define-macro (foo . x) `,(map cons x (iota (length x)))) 19:55:59 ? 19:56:17 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:33 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:57:11 How do you write (define-macro (foo . x) `,(map cons x (iota (length x)))) with define-syntax? 19:57:13 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 19:57:13 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:43 DEFINE-SYNTAX and what? SYNTAX-CASE? SYNTAX-RULES is incapable of performing arithmetic with literal numbers. 19:58:47 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 20:01:02 then with SYNTAX-CASE, I don't care. I never use any of them. 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[n=cipher@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #scheme 23:51:56 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:53:23 How do you call a function with a list as a 'rest' argument? 23:53:28 Apply doesn't work very well... 23:53:40 Please elaborate. 23:53:59 (define (func a b . rest) ...) and I want to call (func q x . foo) 23:54:04 or however that would work 23:54:14 What does `APPLY doesn't work very well' mean? 23:54:29 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:54:56 (apply func (append (list a b) rest)) just doesn't strike me as very clean... 23:56:07 There is a world of difference between `clean' and `working'. You should also read the specification of APPLY more carefully to see what amenities it offers. 23:56:23 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@16.Red-81-38-179.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:56:45 If there's nothing better I guess that's fine. 23:56:51 Good idea. 23:57:00 Oh hey, it does exactly what I want. Go figure. 23:57:02 I thought it only took a list heh. 23:58:00 Also, if I have two variables a and b, with say, 3 and 4 in them, what's the cleanest way to get '((3 4) (3 4)) without actually typing 3 or 4? 23:58:09 (list (list a b) (list a b)) is the best I've come up with so far.