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Just read it online if you are not sure about buying it. 01:36:30 i know i can read it online, but i always prefer having the book. 01:36:52 is there any other books on scheme that you recommend? 01:37:16 I would definitely recommend The Little Schemer 01:37:27 i am sick 01:37:44 ? 01:38:21 -!- ventonegro [i=alex@189-94-71-148.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:39:34 what about "The Scheme Programming Language"? 01:40:51 many people told me this one is great 01:40:55 what do you guys think? 01:41:31 I think HtDP is pretty good for an intro text; SICP is still king, but we can all agree that is too much for n00bs 01:41:40 worth buying HtDP? Not for me... but maybe for you 01:42:00 what IS certainly worth buying is The Little Schemer, The Seasoned Schemer, and The Reasoned Schemer 01:42:26 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 01:42:26 01:42:26 -!- names: ccl-logbot uknowen jonrafkind saccade_ elurin hiyuh echo-area npe sili Debolaz Jarvellis raikov CaptainMorgan Adamant mr_ank proq synthasee appletizer synx levi aspect Kusanagi a-s arcfide samth forcer jdev tarbo kazzmir_ specbot mornfall ricky ski_ elf bsmntbombdood dfeuer certainty|work Mr_Awesome brandelune cracki replor nowhere_man AtnNn seth chrisdone bpt MichaelRaskin_ keyofnight kilimanjaro error_developer_ yakov2 saccade kniu ug 01:42:26 -!- names: sm Fare pjdelport merlincorey tessier ttmrichter wastrel tizoc vkm p1dzkl cky foof elias` sphex schme mmc1 elmex pchrist sladegen benny tjafk2 xz Modius__ offby1 felipe araujo ineiros rudybot_ carlf Cale eno leppie_work rdd tabe Khisanth Axioplase_ duncanm kaaah pfo_ borism r0bby nicholasw_ jeremiah travis|away bascule Poeir_ tltstc ctsprsrcl viocizgd djjack_ Elly nasloc__ grnman agemo rmrfchik minion Riastradh dlouhy leppie Kinks mbishop 01:42:26 -!- names: Leonidas Paraselene_ gnomon sad0ur qebab emma Arelius vincenz Deformative eli kalven heat maskd ski zbigniew lisppaste mqt bunz z0d clog klutometis Adrinael XTL michaelw xian Wardje chandler j4cbo pbusser2 01:44:08 well, i think i wont buy HtDP as i can read it online... maybe ill just print some pages i think are important 01:44:35 thanks ug and chandler for your recommendations 01:44:40 ug: For the record, I do not think SICP is too much for noobs. 01:45:59 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:44 arcfide: For the record, I think you haven't read Wadler87 01:47:21 there have been many criticisms of SICP as a text for beginners from many very smart and capable professors - why do you think they are completely wrong? 01:47:42 I don't, but I don't think that the book is too much for noobs, either. 01:47:53 then defend your stance 01:48:32 In my personal experience, I have been able to teach high school level studeents from SICP without problems. It was tough, but it wasn't "too much" for them. 01:48:49 did they complete all excersizes? 01:49:00 It *may* be too much to attempt to teach the whole book as a single semester, or maybe even two, but that's a different story. 01:49:06 oh I see 01:49:06 Of what textbooks have you completed all the exercises, ug? 01:49:10 I think the holy light of truth and sunshine does not flow out of Phillip Wadler's ass 01:49:13 so you only taught parts 01:49:20 at least all the time 01:49:25 Riastradh: I was asking as in coverage of the book 01:49:43 it would seem that it was not fully covered which is not the assumption I was making and that most of the relevent papers make 01:49:49 you can teach SICP to beginners 01:49:55 which is their point - SICP is too much for most beginners to handle in a semester 01:49:58 you validated it 01:50:11 That, ug, is what's known as a `straw man'. 01:50:12 you just can't teach it the way MIT does to beginners 01:50:18 Adamant: sure you can - they might not get much out of it and they might hate you for it, but it is certainly doable 01:50:20 ug: As with any good class, you need to focus on the pace of the students, challenging them, but not just throwing too mcuh for them to handle. The difference is that most students can and will handle something like SICP rather more quickly than people think. 01:51:00 ug: seriously, I have never worked every example in any textbook, ever 01:51:03 Riastradh: what are you saying is the strawman I bring in here? the excersizes quip? 01:51:11 so using that as some sort of requirement is bogus 01:51:20 Adamant: why are you focusing on that? I already stated the question was more related to coverage of the book 01:51:23 I did not mean it literally 01:51:40 Adamant: nor did I make it a requirement - show me where I said it was a requirement 01:51:48 ug, if you want to claim that we can all agree that SICP is too much for novices (and may I request that we use a perfectly good word, `novice', rather than the obnoxious and belittling `noob'), you will have to be clearer on what you mean by `too much', and if it is agreement you seek, you'll have to argue for it yourself. 01:51:51 it was simply a query, to gain more information 01:51:57 ug: you used that as a measuring stick 01:52:04 ug: Also, if it helps any, the intro Scheme class we teach here for beginners, for which I run a lab, doesn't use SICP, however, some students who have had questions, and whom I have subsequently referred to SICP, have all had positive things to say about it. 01:52:06 Adamant: prove it 01:52:29 member:ug 01:52:30 : 01:52:30 which is their point - SICP is too much for most beginners to handle in a semester 01:52:30 [ 01:52:30 9:49pm 01:52:31 ] 01:52:32 member:ug 01:52:34 : 01:52:36 you validated it 01:52:46 sorry, you inflicted the ugly IRC on yourself 01:52:54 ug, it is straightforward for someone in this channel to interpret `too much' not as `too much material to cover in a semester course' but as `too much depth and density for any novice to comprehend'. 01:52:54 that was in response to Riastradt's statement 01:53:09 I am not sure what you wer trying to demonstrate there, Adamant, but it wasn't me stating going through every excersize was a requirement 01:53:27 So, can we all agree that bickering about whether this or that authority claimed SICP to be useless or useful is all rather irrelevant? 01:53:33 (And can we learn to spell English words like `exercise'?) 01:53:36 I learned scheme from SICP, on my own without a teacher. 01:53:38 hi 01:53:41 member:ug 01:53:41 : 01:53:41 did they complete all excersizes? 01:53:55 Adamant: I am not disputing that I asked the question 01:54:12 *arcfide* agrees that this conversation is degenerating quickly. 01:54:15 yeah 01:54:23 Adamant, just fyi, you paste 3 lines for every 1 line he writes. I think that means he is winning 01:54:37 kilimanjaro: no, it means I have a shitty IRC client 01:54:39 Adamant, please cut down on the multiline pasting, by the way. 01:54:44 that's one C&P 01:54:46 If that means getting a new IRC client, then so be it. 01:54:57 no, it means less C&P 01:55:22 Riastradh: contains skip list profiling data. 01:55:23 Riastradh: anyway I do agree with you that the interpretation of 'too much' is left open since I did not specify it; however, I did later ammend it 01:55:36 Adamant: I recommend a new IRC client :P 01:55:49 I'm too lazy 01:56:23 Riastradh: After some more learning on how Chez handles automatic inlining, and examining the profiling data, it appears that some of the biggest problems that the skip-list code has (from my perspective) is simply that it's hard for Chez to do the inlining of the code. 01:56:58 anyway I can't agree to your proposal because I know I for one never stated it was useless or not so useful. I simply referenced Wadler and alluded to others who have made a case that SICP for beginners is not the best. In fact, this is why HtDP was written! 01:57:14 I think experienced programmers get the MOST out of SICP 01:57:59 arcfide, good grief! Why isn't it integrating NODE-ELEMENT &c. in-line? 01:58:41 Riastradh: No, I think those would be inlined. 01:58:52 The profile suggests otherwise. 01:59:06 Riastradh: The profiling provides the information without inlining. 01:59:13 Well, that's not much good. 01:59:13 I'll put up the inlining, hang on. 01:59:41 (Can you make that page less of an angry fruit salad?) 02:00:22 Riastradh: I probably could, but that's the default. I could give you a list containing the raw profile data, which you could then use in something like SWL Profile Viewer, but that's probably more annoying for you. 02:00:39 anyway, see you guys tomorrow 02:00:54 I must deal with teh 405 :( 02:00:59 -!- ug [n=merlin@67.159.169.138] has quit ["leaving"] 02:00:59 Riastradh: If you have some colors you prefer, I can put those in. 02:03:22 No, I can futz with it locally (finding colours that don't induce eye hemorrhage is the bothersome part). What I'm much more interested in is what Chez is actually capable of integrating in-line. 02:03:50 Riastradh: Sure, there are actually three parameters that control the degree of inlining. 02:04:10 underspecified [n=eric@isa7-dhcp-116-122.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:04:17 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:27 I've been playing with them, but basically, they boil down to work to inline, code explosion, procedure unrolling limit. 02:04:39 At the very least, if you can, you should force Chez to integrate the local SEARCH and UPDATE! procedures in MAKE-SKIP-LIST-TYPE. 02:04:59 Right, those are the hot spots. 02:05:00 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:05:24 Can you tweak those parameters in local declarations or anything? 02:06:28 You can tweak these at the compilation level, and probably a little more than that. 02:06:40 I don't know if you can tweak them inside individual local scopings though. 02:06:51 Well, then can you at least use DEFINE-INTEGRABLE for the SEARCH and UPDATE! procedures? 02:06:58 You mean something like the DECLARE feature in MIT Scheme? 02:07:04 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 02:07:08 Riastradh: Yes, I can. 02:07:21 I sent you results with DEFINE-INTEGRABLE all around. 02:07:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:00 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:09:10 ...right. 02:09:37 It significantly improved the results, but not to the point where they compete with the RB Tree implementation. 02:09:49 I haven't had a chance to do the WB Tree tests. 02:11:05 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:24 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 02:12:17 I am somewhat curious why lookups are still so many times slower on skip lists than on red/black trees; the code is very similar. 02:12:40 Can you disassemble RB-TREE/LOOKUP and the LOOKUP procedure within MAKE-SKIP-LIST-TYPE? 02:12:52 Riastradh: looking at the expanded output, the UPDATE! procedure is quite crazy. 02:12:56 02:13:55 Yes, it's illegible because of insufficient effort from the pretty-printer. 02:14:45 What are all the errors about references to undefined variables? 02:14:46 Riastradh: I'll have to get back to you on the disassembly. I am not sure quite how to do that. ;-) 02:14:56 Why does that code enter into it? 02:15:14 Riastradh: I'm sorry, where is this? 02:15:31 Search for the string `"attempt to reference undefined variable ~s"'. 02:15:43 it looks like letrec checks 02:16:26 Yeah. 02:16:29 ...oh, by the way, I just remembered (not sure why I didn't before): I did test the performance of skip lists against red/black trees, weight-balanced trees, and hash tables in MIT Scheme. Hash tables won hands down for everything without any order requirements, but I vaguely recall that skip lists came out on top of red/black trees and weight-balanced trees. 02:16:30 Let me see.... 02:16:36 Why are there LETREC checks?? 02:16:45 All the right-hand expressions are lambdas! 02:17:05 module defs 02:17:49 That's silly. There are much better ways to implement that. 02:18:15 Let's see...I think I got rid of those. 02:18:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:18:18 -!- travis|away is now known as travisbemann 02:18:58 Riastradh: Try again. 02:19:07 Did I get them all? 02:19:27 Looks like it -- although I wonder whether Chez is now unsafe. 02:19:33 It is. 02:19:34 :-) 02:19:44 Well, that's silly. 02:19:51 Heheh. 02:19:59 those are checks required by R6RS 02:20:04 You don't happen to have the test code that you ran? 02:20:31 leppie, I didn't suggest otherwise. What I said is that the implementation chosen by Chez (suggested by that code at least) is silly. 02:20:52 at least thats one thing i get right way better than ikarus :) 02:21:04 This is a snapshot of the code at the first pass of optimization. 02:21:15 I can pretty much guarantee that it's not the final output. 02:21:23 The final output could be even worse. 02:21:29 lol 02:21:30 For example, rather than abstaining from referring to top-level variables whose values are procedures, you can initialize the variables to be procedures that signal LETREC violations (or whatever you want to call the errors). 02:23:24 arcfide, ah, I have an idea to fake Chez out: change SEARCH to (LAMBDA (S-L K I-F I-N-F) (SEARCH S-L K I-F I-N-F)), and similarly for UPDATE!, in the call to %MAKE-SKIP-LIST-TYPE within MAKE-SKIP-LIST-TYPE. Perhaps do the same for all the other arguments as well. 02:24:09 Eh?? 02:24:42 Sorry, I am not sure I understand you on that one. 02:24:42 Riastradh: that code does not come from psyntax, you have to provide your own letrec, so it must be their expansion of letrec/letrec* 02:25:18 (%make-skip-list-type ... search ...) -> (%make-skip-list-type ... (lambda (sl k if inf) (search sl k if inf)) ...) 02:25:24 I think there is some paper on their choices for expanding letrec. 02:25:27 leppie, well, it doesn't matter where it comes from; it's still silly! 02:25:29 in IronScheme i just handle that check internally in the byte code I emit 02:25:30 -!- uknowen [n=asd@87-196-30-171.net.novis.pt] has quit [] 02:25:42 i agree, it is silly :) 02:26:38 but at least it is correct 02:27:19 ok back to bed for me ZZzzzzz 02:28:29 Riastradh: How can we see if this faking out does what you think? 02:28:34 Riastradh: What are you trying to do? 02:28:44 Compare the running time (if you can't compare the assembly code). 02:28:50 Okay. 02:28:55 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-21-7.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:31:20 Riastradh: I am running the test now. 02:31:59 And, sorry, you said that you didn't have the testing code that you used? 02:32:05 I found it. 02:32:09 Also, the tests you ran were for the mit-skip-list.scm file, right? 02:32:14 Yes. 02:32:44 and test-pq.scm 02:34:27 I just ran the test again: skip lists beat red/black trees and weight-balanced trees by at least a factor of two. 02:34:48 (For test-set.scm, hash tables still win by at least a factor of four over skip lists.) 02:35:07 Okay, this test looks good... 02:35:28 I think I have wb trees here as well, so I should be able to test them all. 02:36:13 I find it interesting how different the speeds are. There must be something that Chez is doing that is really messing with the results. 02:36:20 Do you think it is purely the inlining issue? 02:36:34 Riastradh: Do your skip-lists have referentially transparent operations? 02:37:00 No, foof; neither do the red/black tree nor hash table implementations in question. 02:37:10 ... 02:37:11 Of course if you want functional update, you want the weight-balanced trees. 02:37:16 Right. 02:37:19 Is there such thing as a functional hash table? 02:37:31 (which, by the way, beat red/black trees in my tests) 02:37:51 Well... I could imagine one... it doesn't seem very efficient. 02:37:54 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:37:55 Well, just running the tests I have over, it appears that there is a marginal gain for the trick you used, but not more than maybe a couple of seconds. 02:38:04 foof, update needn't be efficient for lookup to be. 02:38:06 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-24-119.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:16 arcfide, a couple of seconds out of what? 02:38:23 Riastradh: Hrm, interesting, so rb trees were slowest out of the three/four for you? 02:38:27 Another couple of seconds? Dozens of seconds? A minute? Hours? 02:38:43 Riastradh: 54 vs 55; 49 vs. 51, &c. 02:38:51 Yes. It's no surprise to me, either: the red/black balancing algorithm is the most complex and yields the worst results on average. 02:39:11 What counts were you using? 02:39:33 Whatever is enough to register reproducible timings on your radar. 02:40:00 Okay, I am using a count of 5000000. 02:41:09 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 02:41:32 By the way, please take my casual tests with many grains of salt. Although I get reproducible results, the tests are not especially useful themselves. The only reason I ran a single test for each type of set was sheer laziness and idleness of curiosity of the performance. 02:43:18 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 02:43:36 And for what it's worth, red/black trees appear to generate the least amount of garbage. 02:44:29 Right. 02:44:55 *arcfide* works on the new tests. 02:45:13 (This doesn't surprise me: the weight-balanced trees are updated functionally even if used destructively, and skip lists require intermediate heap storage for any updates.) 02:46:05 Right. 02:46:16 Well, I read something that indicated there could be caching issues with skip lists. 02:46:24 I have no idea whether that could be an issue though. 02:46:33 (Skip lists don't strictly *need* heap storage (they could do with exactly the same recursion stack storage as red/black trees), but Scheme has no way to express that directly.) 02:47:32 You mean the skip list implementation creates closures which are most 02:47:40 likely heap allocated? 02:48:01 Riastradh: Would you like me to run these tests with the "trick" or without? 02:48:04 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:48:13 (apologies for splitting lines over 80 columns) 02:48:13 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:48:34 The skip list implementation's update routine creates a vector whose depth is proportional to the logarithm of the cardinality of the set. It is used strictly with dynamic extent, and could be allocated in ephemeral stack storage. 02:49:45 Most of the closures should be eliminated (but probably are not in Chez). 02:51:14 Riastradh: I assume that I can edit the skip list tests to use fixnum arithmetic instead of skip-list-type:real-number-set? 02:51:21 Correction: Insertion into red/black trees requires a constant amount of intermediate storage, none of which has unlimited extent. 02:51:26 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:27 arcfide, no, that wouldn't be very fair. 02:51:36 Really? 02:51:46 Wouldn't you do this on all of them? 02:51:47 arcfide, not unless you also change the other types of sets to use fixnum arithmetic. 02:55:05 Oops! 02:55:15 Oui? 02:56:13 What I wrote gave skip lists an inadvertent advantage. Switching to integer-only arithmetic (which is *not* open-coded by the compiler) slowed skip lists down measurably, although except for GC time the set test with skip lists still outperforms that with red/black trees. 02:56:37 (Generic arithmetic is open-coded by the compiler to the advantage of the fixnum case, and all the numbers involved were fixnums.) 02:57:11 Hrm, does this mean I should or should not be running these tests using fixnum arithmetic? 02:57:12 That's odd (that integer-only isn't open-coded). 02:57:37 As for Hashtables, would it be considered cheating to specify the expected count in the hash tables? 02:58:36 Hash tables are faster anyway, so why would you want to do that? 02:58:47 *arcfide* shrugs. 02:59:23 Hrm... 02:59:37 You do the insertions in order... 03:00:21 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:16 Actually, that is probably to the slight disadvantage of skip lists. 03:01:21 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #scheme 03:02:59 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:06:51 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:06:56 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:37 Riastradh: Alright, testing sets now. 03:11:26 dzlk [i=1000@bb-205-209-78-134.gwi.net] has joined #scheme 03:11:58 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has left #scheme 03:11:58 arcfide pasted "Testing Results: Sets" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69386 03:12:11 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e179197093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:13:50 arcfide annotated #69386 with "test-set.ss" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69386#1 03:14:42 (Ugh, EVAL-WHEN? No wonder the Chez folks are confused about phases.) 03:14:50 Sorry. ;-) 03:15:05 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:15:57 These tests seem relatively consistent with my other results, which leads me to believe that Chez is missing the boat here with Skip Lists somehow. 03:17:32 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:19:21 I remember combing through the code post-integration in MIT Scheme to ensure that the procedures in every call to KEYKEY, IF-FOUND, IF-NOT-FOUND, &c., were integrated in-line. 03:20:14 Incidentally, it occurs to me that DO-INSERT and DO-DELETE need not be duplicated anywhere, I believe. 03:20:18 You mean the internally defined procedures? 03:21:01 Oh! 03:21:02 Hrm... 03:21:21 For example, the search, update, &c., code is duplicated for the construction of SKIP-LIST-TYPE:REAL-NUMBER-SET, SKIP-LIST-TYPE:EXACT-INTEGER-SET, &c. 03:22:01 Ensuring that the definition of KEYKEY, IF-FOUND, &c.) is unfair. 03:22:15 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:23:22 Sorry, what I said above is wrong: DO-DELETE can't be pulled to the top level (which is what I meant when I said `need not be duplicated'), although DO-INSERT can be.) 03:23:32 arcfide annotated #69386 with "Test Results for PQ" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69386#2 03:24:31 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:48 arcfide annotated #69386 with "test-pq.ss" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69386#3 03:24:54 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:25:17 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:25:46 Hrm, well, I think I have plenty of right to expect Chez to do some of this inlining for me. 03:25:58 What is so hard about inlining the skip list code compared to the others? 03:26:16 No, you don't. It is perfectly legitimate for Chez to believe that the explosion of code from duplicating the body of MAKE-SKIP-LIST-TYPE -- a gigantic procedure -- is not desirable. 03:26:45 Riastradh: even if I tell it that gigantic explosion is fine? 03:27:27 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-94-11.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:27:33 How much size difference does your mit-skip-list code create in size? 03:28:33 I have an old file called slow-skip-list.com, which was probably compiled without any integrations. It is eighteen kilobytes, compared to the seventy-seven kilobytes of skip-list.com. 03:29:02 Hrm. 03:30:09 (There is *immense* duplication.) 03:30:45 Specifically, the whole body of MAKE-SKIP-LIST-TYPE is copied fourteen times after its initial definition. 03:31:06 Hm, is there a way to manage this to avoid such duplication and still get the speed? 03:31:43 In each copy, SEARCH is duplicated twice and UPDATE! thrice. 03:32:10 Sorry, fourteen was an overestimate. 03:32:22 Eight is closer. 03:37:15 morn' 03:37:22 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["¬"] 03:38:18 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 03:39:23 Do I hear seven? 03:40:41 Seven, seven's the number. Six... you can't even break a sweat in six minutes! 03:40:44 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:40:57 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:41:10 Aha. More grains of salt with my test code. I don't know what I was thinking when I prepared it. Now it is a fairer comparison of the algorithms. I must have been trying to compare both the algorithms and the design of the API. 03:42:20 Hrm, okay. I think I've done enough testing for tonight. :-) I'll be heading in. I'll probably get to more testing later in the week. 03:42:39 I hope your idle curiosity has been kept marginally entertained. 03:43:36 Anyway, I think that the skip list code is pretty much optimal -- if you can get Chez to copy procedures effectively, so that numerical comparators and identity procedures get open-coded in the right places, avoiding full procedure calls there. 03:44:23 Also, of course, these are strictly constant factors we are talking about. 03:48:00 Well, When I did broad integration of the code, there was I think a speed up in insertion from 55 to 30 some seconds. 03:48:46 For small things like <1000000 elements, the results were similar enough to not matter much, except for deletions. 03:49:32 (It is important to realize that code explosion doesn't matter for speed (e.g., if you're concerned about cache misses) when the parts of the code that are duplicated are executed independent of one another. In fact, the real effect of the duplication is to *reduce* the sizes of the actual inner loops.) 03:54:45 -!- dzlk [i=1000@bb-205-209-78-134.gwi.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:57:11 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:24 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberry"] 04:01:44 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180068039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:08:20 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:15:09 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 04:16:30 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180069159.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:31 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 04:24:52 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:08 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 04:55:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:07:16 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:41 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:08:31 -!- npe [n=npe@69.150.142.130] has quit [] 05:10:35 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176223181.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 05:27:29 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 05:28:22 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176221150.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:01 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 05:35:05 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 05:36:15 tosvar [n=ziggurat@dsl081-123-018.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 05:52:47 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:56:12 -!- Kusanagi [n=Motoko@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:56:13 Motoko-Kusanagi [n=Motoko@71-14-81-211.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 05:59:58 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:06:15 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:15:28 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-195.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:28:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:33:58 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-039-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:38:21 -!- tosvar [n=ziggurat@dsl081-123-018.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:43:10 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:46:46 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 07:00:46 raikov` [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 07:03:15 mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 07:10:14 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:52 kisses 07:16:13 -!- mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:59 peter_ [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 07:42:11 -!- peter_ is now known as sjamaan 07:44:50 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:18:28 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:20 levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 08:24:42 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055453.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:30:03 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #scheme 08:31:35 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:20 -!- mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 08:34:32 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 08:47:36 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 08:48:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:58:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:42 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 09:00:21 araujo [n=araujo@190.37.174.213] has joined #scheme 09:01:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01:55 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 09:11:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:14:44 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055453.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:04 someone actually chastised me for writing a README in "Ye Olde English"; fuck that 09:17:49 i'll do my READMEs in beowulf's tongue, if i have to; "professionalism" be damned 09:18:32 modern english is a pidgin-farce; too much latin, not near enough saxon 09:19:19 saxon would be more middle english :) 09:19:39 old english is nearly indistinguishable from old norse. 09:21:05 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:50 *elf* writes his readmes in pig latin latin. 09:24:45 elf: i think you're right; maybe chaucer's english would be a nice compromise 09:25:15 even victorian english, though, has a nice dose of saxon; it puts hair on the chest 09:25:17 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0127.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:26:25 all that latinate flimflam makes you flabby 09:27:08 a classic example is "attendant" vs. "steward(ess)" 09:28:21 egamatislay : 09:28:37 (to be read, in pig latin latin) 09:29:15 what's wrong with steward/ess ? 09:29:19 anyway 09:29:39 victorian english is indistinguishable from modern english, grammatically. 09:29:43 sili: it's not pc anymore 09:29:54 ok, but why not? 09:30:02 the word choice is only slightly different. formal writing nowadays isnt much different. 09:30:16 its only 150 years old. 09:30:21 elf: not necessarily true; they make heavy use of the present and past subjunctive, as well as the second person singular and plural, for instance 09:30:35 o0o 09:30:37 "cabin boy" 09:31:02 sili: "cabin boy" doesn't suffer from the superfluous multiplication of syllable 09:31:07 woot, my gf just finished knitting me a mobius strip. 09:31:08 SMoS is the prime dictum of PC 09:31:16 smos ? 09:31:26 it's a kind of anti-occam of language 09:31:34 elf: superfluous multiplication of syllable 09:31:46 ah. 09:32:06 as in 'superfluous multiplication of syllable' rather than 'longer words' ? 09:32:23 mobius strip = hax 09:32:31 hax ? 09:32:50 elf: yes, it's a recursive insult 09:33:26 woot. 09:33:44 sili: no shit; i had one on my desk once. kept staring at it; never got anything done 09:33:56 shes knitting me a klein bottle next. 09:34:00 heh 09:34:16 m, recursive insults. 09:34:25 *elf* ponders. 09:35:08 also hax. 09:35:15 what does 'hax' mean? 09:36:03 elf: he means, h4x 09:36:14 that doesnt particularly help, mr kluto. 09:36:33 *elf* is trying to construct a recursive insult. difficult. 09:36:45 its easy to construct a self-referential insult, but not a recursive one. 09:36:50 hax is when an opposing player uses a tactic or series of successful tactics against you, possibly by means of hacks 09:37:03 elf: are you text browsing? otherwise, http://www.dsfanboy.com/media/2006/06/hax.jpg 09:37:33 what does hax have to do with mobius strips? 09:37:34 definitely hax. 09:37:36 *elf* is confused. 09:37:48 elf: you need more interweb 09:37:57 elf: self-referential is recursive, though, with a shallow base-case 09:38:28 sili: heh; i have a fever, and the only prescription is ... moar intarwebs 09:38:44 sili: id rather have more time for useful things and less random nonsense. 09:39:00 elf: the tubes have a way of usurping neurons, it's true 09:39:13 knowing the way of the web has its uses. eg, knowing what the hell people are talking about 09:40:04 i generally know what the hell people are talking about when they use any one of a number of languages and dialects. 09:40:16 talaga? 09:40:31 sili: true; although i could never bring myself to watch enough tv to catch up with the tv-cats 09:40:56 i do not generally know what the hell people are talking about when they are only referencing whatever nonsense was on the daily intarweb crap collector sites. 09:40:58 what the hell is a pokemon? 09:41:28 google it 09:41:30 :p 09:41:33 hax is at least 9000 years old 09:41:54 sili: nay, more 09:42:02 it's over 9000!!! 09:42:59 elf: that sort of monacistism is very pious nowadays 09:43:03 may the force be with thee 09:43:24 he is beyond the intarweb. 09:43:33 monasticism* 09:44:05 *elf* wonders what the hell klutometis is talking about. 09:44:15 its not monastic nor pious. 09:44:21 mbishop_ [n=martin@adsl-150-28-247.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 09:44:36 is it... hax? 09:44:44 *elf* sighs. 09:44:57 sili: http://xkcd.com/256/ elf is somewhere extremely south-west 09:45:08 the relation between 'hax' and my girlfriend knitting a mobius strip is entirely mysterious to me. 09:45:08 sorry. Let's talk about the Yangtze river 09:45:10 -!- mbishop [n=martin@unaffiliated/mbishop] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:45:10 south-east* 09:45:29 so... I hear it's up to 200m. eh? 09:45:52 eh? 09:46:13 elf: hax has a certain zen-like indeterminacy 09:46:27 hax is stochastic 09:46:47 im not somewhere south east. 09:47:07 i prefer to think of myself as a traditionalist who believes the internet could have been useful if there werent all these goddamn people on it. 09:47:54 voting for mccain, too? 09:48:00 halghalg. 09:49:07 m? 09:49:17 no, voting for no-one. i hate all the people involved. 09:49:21 Googled turned up a nice definition for hax: This term is used to describe a situation which appears as though your opponent are performing abilities outside of the reality of the game 09:49:29 not hate, just think theyre entirely unfit for the office of president. 09:49:45 well, except nader, who i think should be flayed and dipped in boiling oil. 09:49:50 *sili* campaings for liberty (dot com) 09:50:01 campaign 09:50:10 who is the opponent in the 'my girlfriend knitted me a mobius strip'? 09:50:18 i just thought it was a nifty cool thing that she did :) 09:50:20 the mobius strip is hax. 09:50:42 in what way? 09:51:31 it has only one boundary 09:51:39 surface is infinite! hax! 09:52:49 it's outside of the reality of the game, you see? 09:52:52 surface of a mobius strip is not infinite. 09:53:10 it goes round and round. sure seems like. hax. 09:53:24 is the surface of a sphere infinite? 09:53:37 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:37 using logic on me. 09:53:39 hax. 09:53:57 you're too l33t for the interweb 09:54:15 *elf* sighs. 09:54:30 sounds stressful 09:55:31 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:56:23 elf: would you try my mcmxcii mod? 09:56:59 it transports the web to the wonderful year of 1992; before the dreaded print analogy 09:57:18 http://mcmxcii.org/ 09:57:21 the dreaded print analogy? 09:57:57 when the tried to constrain html in columns, etc.; generally turning the web into faux-print, replete with ads, etc. 09:58:54 m. 09:59:25 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 10:00:28 elf: by the way pig latin latin is clever, but i can't seem to parse "legamatis" 10:01:02 to be read. 10:01:26 future subjunctive form of legare iirc. 10:01:59 there's lectandum from lego, legere; "to be read" 10:02:10 that's future passive participle/gerund though 10:02:12 ah. 10:02:14 that works. 10:02:45 thank you. i wanted passive participle, not subj. i also misremembered its class. 10:03:10 sorry: lectendum; third conjugation 10:03:14 erg, not class. word. whats the word. verb equivalent of declension. 10:03:26 conjugation 10:04:14 no, conjugation is the tenses of a given verb. 10:04:21 im referring to the classes of verbs. 10:04:56 -are vs -ere vs -ire vs -ere etc 10:04:56 conjugation of a verb is a sort of class; there's first, corresonding to -o -are; second: -o -ere; etc. 10:07:02 anyway, lego is one of those pesky third conjugation verbs with the irregular perfect stem 10:11:39 ah 10:12:02 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1c995944ed454551] has joined #scheme 10:15:54 i find future perfect passive participles so useful in programming, that i've had to become conversant in the irregular stems (no joke) 10:16:17 for instance, (set-union! appensum appendendum) 10:16:32 appensum: the appended-to thin; appendendum: the thing to append, etc. 10:16:59 thing* 10:17:30 from appendo, appendere 10:17:50 yes, i know :) 10:17:54 heh 10:18:03 ive never thought of naming my vars in other languages. 10:18:07 thats kinda a good idea, actually. 10:18:15 it's much more descriptive than english, frankly 10:18:30 how would you express appensum/appendendum in an english one-worder, for instance? 10:18:35 so clearly, that is 10:18:38 hehe, though much harder to understand for anyone not fluent in latin 10:18:45 appendee ;) 10:18:57 yeah, that sucks; but i'm banking on the uber-mensch here ;) 10:19:01 ecraven: that's a good one 10:19:21 *elf* whacks klutometis. 10:19:22 sanskrit would be good 10:19:32 sanskrit was what i was thinking, actually. 10:19:36 to-be-appended is tough, though; but we do have "appendend", like "dividend", etc. 10:19:42 that would be kosher 10:20:03 (set-union! appendee appendend); i could live with that 10:20:43 ecraven: heh, thanks, man; spared me some trouble at work ;) 10:20:53 they always give me shit for my latin 10:21:52 *elf* ponders the hebrew for append. 10:22:25 i guess you could do hebrew in r6rs; r5rs is pretty staunchly ascii, isn't it? 10:22:46 no, r5rs doesnt specify character encoding. 10:22:56 interesting; have to try it in chicken, then 10:23:23 heh. 10:36:17 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:42:40 jesusito [n=jesusito@232.pool85-49-227.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #scheme 10:43:42 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #scheme 10:55:54 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 10:57:00 -!- pmatos 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|/| G"] 12:14:44 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 12:19:44 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:52 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 12:24:23 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has joined #scheme 12:25:52 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:30 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:29:52 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:30:52 contemporary science is a Ponzi scheme of self-referential pseudo-relevance 12:32:14 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:43:25 relevance or accuracy? 12:43:39 hemulen_ [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:45:44 -!- jesusito [n=jesusito@232.pool85-49-227.dynamic.orange.es] has left #scheme 12:46:00 jesusito 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[n=npe@206.180.153.179.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #scheme 13:51:53 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:55 -!- npe [n=npe@206.180.153.179.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:56:35 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 13:56:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-016.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:46 jewel: could be accuracy; i'm thinking, though, of the reference game: relevance is a who-can-collect-the-most-references thing 14:04:10 npe [n=npe@206.180.153.179.adsl.hal-pc.org] has joined #scheme 14:06:10 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:06:23 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:10:08 -!- kaaah [n=karim@joondalup.davromaniak.eu] has left #scheme 14:12:28 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 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science on the hope that increasing what you can will allow you to gain what you want, but that assumption is not guaranteed... 14:27:48 *gasp* it isn't?! 14:28:09 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:28:58 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:32:41 -!- npe [n=npe@206.180.153.179.adsl.hal-pc.org] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:33:09 _marco [i=d4b16625@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f79bb73857bc226e] has joined #scheme 14:36:37 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:37:12 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:38:49 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:35 offby1: Hey, try telling that to a Singularist, and you'll get a strong argument that it is! 14:41:55 wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:42:56 emotionally strong... I'm not sure about rigorous 14:44:13 is a "Singularist" someone like Eliezer Yudkowsy -- who believes computer will rapidly get smarter than us humans, enslave us, and use us for pizza toppings? 14:46:20 offby1: i think the assumption is that a singularity will make concepts like "enslave" obsolete or nonsensical 14:46:26 ha 14:50:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:51:17 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 14:54:26 albacker [i=5c84d5f5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ca060e4707c3b741] has joined #scheme 14:55:58 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:56:09 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:55 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:41 I'm under the impression that a singularity is something you can't "see" beyond. Possibly from either side. 15:00:57 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:03 XTL: presumably you can see from the other side 15:01:07 wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:09 we can comprehend bacteria 15:02:02 -!- wy_ [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:20 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:03:47 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:05:00 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:06:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:12:36 sorry, this was what I was talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity 15:13:21 I find it amusing they refer to it as a singularity, when even their own most optimistic projections are the exponent...which has no asymptote... 15:16:40 -!- albacker 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["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 16:47:32 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:48:33 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:06 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 16:58:32 I have the following code: http://pastebin.com/m10855cca , and I'm wondering why it only prints once (and only the first element of the list) 16:59:37 you have an extra ) after current-output-port 16:59:51 move that to the end 17:00:22 oh, cheers 17:00:25 :) 17:00:37 now try understand why that happened 17:01:04 ah now I get it! the recursive call is a part of the print statement, right? 17:01:18 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1719f2428442438b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:01:27 yakov2: also, you probably want an else in front of the print 17:01:48 the print expression is being tested for the condition 17:01:50 currently it's using print's result as the condition 17:01:56 ah I see 17:02:03 else would be more clear 17:02:08 aye now it looks much better, thanks 17:02:15 easier to read in the future, less brace errors 17:02:36 indeed 17:06:41 huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has joined #scheme 17:13:27 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:17:00 -!- huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has left #scheme 17:20:46 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 17:22:08 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:30:00 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:35:05 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 17:38:37 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:45:43 -!- nicholasw_ [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 17:46:07 nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:48:46 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:51:47 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19:16:18 ug [n=merlin@64.47.164.86] has joined #scheme 19:17:13 Can I make a function return nothing? 19:17:21 yes 19:17:27 What is `nothing'? 19:17:39 Riastradh "void" 19:17:41 well 'void' or 'unspecified' 19:17:47 yea 19:17:57 Just have it return 'void 19:18:00 You must specify what a procedure returns, even if it is in terms of something else. 19:18:27 Riastradh ah oaky 19:18:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless50.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:18:56 Why do you want to do this, yakov2? 19:19:22 that is really the more pertinent question 19:19:36 it's not C, so don't try to think of it in terms of C 19:21:57 Riastradh well, I don't anymore :) 19:24:26 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.208.195] has joined #scheme 19:24:38 (define (proc x) (display x) 'the-void-stare-back-at-you) 19:25:29 :) 19:26:00 i pity those who program in symboless languages 19:26:17 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 19:30:02 woho, hopefully my copy of SICP will get here tomorrow 19:31:41 Nice. 19:32:01 *leppie* wonders when his LiSP will arrive... 19:32:16 leppie: How are real continuations going? 19:32:43 still thinking ... been a bit sick the last few days 19:32:50 Ah, okay. 19:33:14 dang i only will be getting it mid november :( 19:34:03 *ventonegro* loves his LiSP 19:40:28 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 19:40:33 LiSP rocks 19:40:53 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0548E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:41:08 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host192-239-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:42:14 hello 19:42:28 is there an office channel for guile or I can ask here? 19:44:09 I think I have LiSP in some strange electronic format 19:44:27 gigabytes: No idea, did you try if there's a #guile? 19:44:39 If it's not too Guile-specific, you can ask here 19:45:04 it's more an opinion 19:45:19 guile sucks 19:45:20 :P 19:45:23 hehe 19:45:32 not that kind of opinion eheh XD 19:45:47 At school... I should make something like an IDE/editor for scheme 19:45:52 something like DrScheme 19:45:57 but with a more modern GUI 19:46:11 Now, that's a cool assignment! 19:46:28 so I'm looking for the easier way to use a ready scheme interpreter 19:46:36 the easier to embed in the IDE 19:47:01 and the easier to use for things like debugging, stepping, and all those cool things that drscheme does 19:47:13 any idea? 19:47:33 mzScheme + smart enough parsing? 19:47:41 I've read that guile is built to be embedded 19:48:01 MichaelRaskin_: what do you mean by "smart parsing" ? :D 19:48:02 embedded in programs as a scripting language 19:48:17 So, as part of a program written in another language (C, most likely) 19:49:25 Make it run as if it was run interactively, activate all the debug features (which are approximately same as in DrScheme for obvious reasons) and try to emulate struggling programmer well enough.. 19:51:31 I hope you realize, gigabytes, the immensity of the problem you are looking to tackle -- of building a comprehensive interface between a human (a complex programmer!) and a complex computer system, and that you'll have to go far, far beyond embedding a simple REPL and syntax highlighter before anyone will take you seriously. 19:52:02 Riastradh: of course 19:52:36 Riastradh: but it's a school project 19:53:02 good morning, people of earth. 19:53:20 i.e.: start it well, code until you get a good mark, and then someone will finish it if god wants it 19:53:31 I was hoping that you were either about to admit to your insanity, or about to explain that you have a clear idea of how to begin and proceed. 19:54:04 Riastradh: the first probably XD 19:54:14 being well informed is overrated. just ask the people of america. 19:54:21 heh 19:57:15 so 19:57:21 do you suggest me to use mzscheme? 19:58:15 I suggest that you find a clearer idea of what you really want to do, and perhaps go and find some real insanity, not the vaguely apathetic insanity that you are exhibiting now. 19:58:32 *elf* adds that to the quote log. 19:58:50 minion: advice for gigabytes 19:58:51 gigabytes: #11942: Sure, but you have to have some understanding also. 19:59:53 hm.. 19:59:56 thank you 19:59:57 :D 20:00:11 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:02:02 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:17:54 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:19:18 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A0127.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:56 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 20:32:07 -!- Axioplase [n=Pied@APuteaux-155-1-100-164.w90-44.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["later"] 20:33:24 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:41:25 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:16 urnick [n=uruser@197.144-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 20:43:29 -!- urnick [n=uruser@197.144-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 20:44:26 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #scheme 20:44:42 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:50:13 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless50.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:51:06 proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 20:53:57 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless50.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:56:09 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 20:56:16 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 20:56:37 cmalune [n=cmalune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:00:20 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:17 -!- yakov2 [n=yakov@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:13:11 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:18:18 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host192-239-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 21:18:26 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.111] has joined #scheme 21:19:05 ventonegro [i=alex@189-94-91-254.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #scheme 21:20:41 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:23 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 21:25:26 dereine_ [n=dereine@stud243140.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 21:30:34 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180068039.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:59 -!- npe [n=npe@69.150.142.130] has quit [] 21:32:36 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:01 -!- wy [n=wy@156-56-206-237.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:34:02 is there a channel for beginners? 21:34:23 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.87] has joined #scheme 21:34:25 you are here 21:34:50 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:34:55 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #scheme 21:34:55 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 21:35:54 are records a feature of scheme? 21:36:04 define-record-procedures 21:36:45 I've never heard of define-record-procedures. 21:36:51 mh :( 21:37:17 its like stdClass() in php 21:37:25 so static predifined data 21:37:28 Which implementation has this? 21:37:36 I don't know PHP. 21:37:39 DMda 21:37:52 oh plt scheme 21:38:08 and dmda is a package from our teachers 21:38:22 teacher is the wrong word, i# 21:38:27 m at university 21:38:30 I have never heard of define-record-procedures in the context of PLT either. 21:38:47 R5RS does not define a notion of record type. It is defined by a very commonly supported extention, SRFI 9. 21:38:52 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-9/srfi-9.html 21:39:52 .oO(another drupalist) 21:39:54 But perhaps this is not what you're referring to. 21:40:36 sladegen: drupalist? 21:40:48 all\your\modules\belong\to\us 21:41:10 dereine_: don't mind me. 21:41:20 http://pastebin.com/m65cf9102 21:41:25 lisppaste: url? 21:41:25 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 21:42:34 function foo() { foo(); } foo(); // segfault me harder 21:43:34 solved the problem 21:43:42 npe [n=npe@69.150.142.130] has joined #scheme 21:43:50 lisppaste: paste.lisp.org is accessible per script? 21:44:16 lisppaste is not a person 21:44:18 but anyway scheme is cool, and i solved the problem 21:44:38 sjamaan: can i upload with a shellscript(a public one) 21:44:45 ? 21:45:10 Oh, you want to paste your stuff using some kind of script? 21:45:34 there is lisppaste.el for emacs. 21:46:26 sry for using vim 21:46:34 minion: lisppaste.el? 21:46:34 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 21:46:45 minion: chant 21:46:45 MORE EFFORT 21:46:57 of emacs? 21:47:04 minion: what is listpaste.el? 21:47:04 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 21:47:47 minion: advice for dereine_ 21:47:48 dereine_: #11941: Of course it doesn't work! That's because you don't know what you are doing! 21:47:59 dereine_: yes, emacs. 21:48:55 i'm at the beginning of vim so change is possible 21:49:51 vim is the worst of vi clones and it has emacs like key chords now - so you might as well use emacs 21:50:45 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:51:00 i like the shortness of vi, for example dd y or 3yy 21:51:18 this is rather hard with emacs, as i looked at it strg + u ... 21:51:41 dd is just ^K^K in emacs 21:52:20 and emacs supports using numbers to repeat commands N times 21:52:24 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 21:52:37 merlincorey: so does vim... 21:52:41 merlincorey: How does that work? 21:52:57 C-u? 21:53:20 I thought what C-u did depends on the command? 21:53:25 sladegen: I know, dereine_ demonstrated with 3yy which is WH I MENTIONED IT ;) 21:53:29 s/WH/WHY/ 21:54:01 okey... well vim has it's uses to but C-h b "convinced" me. 21:54:28 *sjamaan* prefers nvi 21:54:31 M-n is what you are thinking of sla 21:54:33 vim is really weird 21:54:39 nvi is a much better vi clone than vim 21:54:42 vim is the worst of them 21:54:48 yeah 21:55:03 I also tried elvis, which is pretty interesting 21:55:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:55:23 But nvi comes with netbsd, so that's what I use :) 21:55:40 And emacs for programming 21:55:40 sladegen: what is C-h b? 21:55:44 all editors suck, some less or more depending on your keyboard hand memory. 21:56:00 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:56:12 dereine_: it lists current key bindings. 21:56:32 wow thats cool stuff! 21:56:36 ^ but context-sensitive, so only for the current buffer 21:56:48 (you can have different editing modes per buffer) 21:56:49 all of them not just user defined. 22:00:24 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.87] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 22:03:35 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 22:08:48 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["He rode off into the sunset. . ."] 22:09:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit ["leaving"] 22:11:47 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:14 is there a way to stare a local variable in a lambda? 22:21:22 which i can use? 22:21:25 store 22:21:34 You can use LET 22:21:56 rudybot_: eval (let ((a 1) (b 2)) (+ a b)) 22:21:56 sjamaan: ; Value: 3 22:25:39 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["time to go home <3"] 22:29:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:18 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:05 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:48:42 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:51:17 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:28 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:11:37 -!- vkm [n=vkm@EVIL-DEMON.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:44 vkm [n=vkm@EVIL-DEMON.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:18:11 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:18:40 Axioplase [n=Pied@APuteaux-155-1-100-164.w90-44.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:26:40 -!- chandler is now known as randomluls 23:26:48 -!- randomluls is now known as chandler 23:28:22 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 23:29:15 -!- Axioplase [n=Pied@APuteaux-155-1-100-164.w90-44.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:29:51 -!- npe [n=npe@69.150.142.130] has quit [] 23:32:51 Axioplase [n=Pied@APuteaux-155-1-100-164.w90-44.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 23:38:17 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 23:40:56 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-59.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:45:00 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:45:04 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-039-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:46:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 23:47:33 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:57:59 Lemonator [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:58:40 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Operation timed out]