00:00:35 Fare: Mange d'la marde! :) 00:02:12 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0559E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:02 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:08:12 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 00:10:39 -!- Axioplase [n=Pied@APuteaux-155-1-18-178.w83-204.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["/quat"] 00:14:09 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:43 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 00:18:44 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-195.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["More Testing."] 00:27:38 -!- cipher [n=user@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:04 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:12 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 00:51:32 nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:00:15 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:02:22 i find it interesting that git's docs take five-times longer to compile than git itself 01:02:32 maybe that's a good thing 01:14:22 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:15:34 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:15:40 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 01:16:15 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:24 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 01:29:51 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:34:30 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:41:00 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-25-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:41:54 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-10-58.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:41:56 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 01:51:36 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 01:52:17 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:52:33 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:42 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:59:42 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable027.191-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 01:59:49 aspect [i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 02:03:43 mheld [n=mheld@pool-141-154-251-146.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:03:48 hey y'all 02:04:01 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:24 is there a benefit to running chicken scheme over PLT scheme? 02:05:32 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:06:33 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.57.213] has joined #scheme 02:06:54 loaded question. 02:07:08 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:20 obviously, running chicken lets you easily use libraries that were designed specifically for it. Running PLT lets you easily use libraries that were designed specifically for _it_. 02:07:33 s/loaded/contentious/ 02:07:50 it's like asking "which programming language is best" 02:08:04 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.57.213] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:17 klutometis: I've noticed that too 02:08:24 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.235.57.213] has joined #scheme 02:09:47 so, if i'm just working through scheme a bit i doesn't matter for now? 02:12:41 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.57.213] has joined #scheme 02:13:14 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 02:14:21 it* 02:21:26 yes 02:22:13 it doesn't matter at all actually as scheme is not used in real world... 02:22:30 i want to change that 02:25:55 vote obama! 02:27:29 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 02:28:27 cynthia Mckinney :-D 02:28:36 good old scheming obama <3 02:28:53 is making scheme relevant to the real world part of the promised platform? 02:29:02 *synx* would vote for her, yay 02:29:05 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:29:33 she's the closest thing to a libertarian we've got running 02:29:40 bob barr is _not_ a libertarian 02:29:55 is she running? 02:30:00 i thought so 02:30:04 run, libertarian, run! 02:30:14 she's actually in the green party 02:30:33 yeah 02:30:35 with a gang of armed law enforcement officers behind... 02:30:49 fringe languages for the fringe people... 02:31:20 I think scheme is used in the real world, if you decide to use it to solve your problem. 02:31:48 i wanna make a web app in scheme 02:31:56 I think politicians do a lot of scheming -- one of the few promises they hold. 02:32:25 When I see job adverts that say "PHP/MSSQL/Access experience required" it makes me sad. They focus on the brand names, not on the real problem they need solved. 02:32:44 mheld: HOP? Continue? Chicken? BRL? 02:32:51 prolly chicken 02:32:59 i've heard the most about it regarding web stuff 02:33:03 *johnnowak* checks the logs to see who the "closest thing to a libertarian" is 02:33:10 synx: and they get what they ask for 02:33:19 I know plt has a web application framework. Dunno about chicken. 02:33:26 synx: knowing that's the case -- you should work on building a brand. 02:33:28 oh christ 02:33:35 Fare: Ha, yeah. Trouble is they're the only people we have to shop from. :/ 02:33:36 er.. *ahem* 02:33:38 johnnowak, yes? 02:33:50 synx, adapt or perish. 02:34:01 synx: chicken has a web server, too. 02:34:17 more like conform or be unemployed. :p I dunno about perish! 02:34:19 Fare: just a childish reaction to the idea of mckinney being a libertarian 02:34:30 she's not a libertarian per se 02:34:37 but... she has a lot of the same standpoints 02:34:40 is this libertarian schemers, here? 02:35:03 i think that geeks tend to be libertarians 02:35:26 Fare: libertarian schemers? 02:35:33 capitalist anarchist pigs 02:35:38 THIS. IS. SPARTA. *boots into pit* 02:35:38 mheld: considering how loose the definition of "libertarian" is, i can't really argue with you 02:35:43 it was funny listening to that gjs talk where he said he was libertarian as far as programming goes (what he knows a lot about), but the opposite as far as politics goes (way out of his domain). 02:35:53 -!- wy [n=wy@c-67-176-146-7.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:56 libertarian as in... negative freedom 02:36:01 (isiah berlin) 02:36:01 *Fare* oinks 02:36:08 *johnnowak* is a minarchist and prefers typed languages... so there. 02:36:29 bondage and discipline languages! 02:36:36 heh 02:36:36 I'm a variable -- BIND ME! 02:36:50 *johnnowak* also prefers pointfree programming... so there! 02:37:05 I will agree people here are somewhat masochist. 02:37:11 content-free languages. 02:37:15 "You can only do X" -> positive liberty(freedom). "Do whatever you want as long as you don't touch me" -> negative liberty(freedom) 02:37:48 eschew your duality. 02:38:04 i think it's far too simplistic to break down freedom as such and to say libertarians are for negative freedom 02:38:20 i agree, but it's a nice general idea 02:38:22 I don't have call/cc, I'm into intuitionnistic logic. 02:38:38 Wiccans support negative freedom. 02:38:45 every negative implies a positive... freedom /from/ force in X implies a freedom /to/ pursue X freely 02:38:47 "An it harm none, do as you will." 02:39:02 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:39:18 well, i mean there is a continuum in there 02:39:23 positives imply negatives too, though I don't know about universally. 02:39:32 but those are pretty much the extremes 02:39:46 freedom to accumulate unlimited wealth and power implies less freedom of everyone else to get enough food to eat. 02:39:49 they're not extremes if one implies the other in all (or most) cases 02:40:02 There are freedoms I wouldn't want anyone to have, not even myself. 02:40:03 synx: it does not in the least 02:40:08 it implies that, but it's not necessarily true 02:40:14 who says there isn't enough for everybody? 02:40:21 wealth is not finite 02:40:29 johnnowak: Okay, okay unlimited food. :p "wealth and power" can be kind of abstract. 02:40:52 quality is not quanititive. 02:40:52 wealth is not finite because we keep devaluing the currency. Instant wealth ha ha! 02:41:10 and, i think that people not getting food would kinda be harming them... 02:41:16 only a little bit 02:41:32 it's all a silly conversation anyway without is a definition of "freedom"... saying you could have the "freedom to be a sadist and kill indiscriminately" and therefore the freedoms of two people come into conflict is silly 02:42:05 Well, yeah but they're free to stand around wishing they had private property to farm on. That's not restricting them at all, right? 02:42:13 you have the right to believe that you should, but not the right to actually go out and do it 02:42:49 Yes you can evaluate but don't you dare apply. 02:44:55 negative vs positive freedom is a bullshit distinction 02:45:00 aye 02:45:04 the real distinction is in terms of property rights 02:45:09 thank RMS for pushing it on everyone 02:45:41 i don't think that freedom is the right word 02:45:43 it should be liberty 02:45:48 property 02:45:54 because liberty applies to property 02:46:08 Fare: why is that, exactly: a marxist bias, or do you have a philosophical difference with positive and negative determination? 02:46:49 (not exclusive or) 02:47:44 property combines liberty, responsibility, merit, accountability -- all into one 02:47:59 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:48:04 accountability what 02:48:09 which is exactly why voters were land-owners for thousands of years 02:48:21 property is just stuff. None of those words are intrinsic to it. 02:48:33 in classical logic, positive vs negative is moot -- everything is the opposite's negative 02:48:38 who's saying they're intrinsic? 02:48:48 Fare did. 02:48:57 i didn't see that 02:49:07 Fare: in post-modernist logic, certainly 02:49:11 Fare: property combines liberty, responsibility, merit, accountability -- all into one 02:49:18 yup 02:49:22 alright, you guys have fun. I've gotta get off to bed. 02:49:25 g'night y'all 02:49:31 -!- mheld [n=mheld@pool-141-154-251-146.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:49:44 mheld: godgigoden 02:50:15 that's not an intrinsisist argument. it's not an argument at all. 02:50:18 it's your property iff you are free to decide about it, iff you're responsible for what happens to it, iff you obtained it through creation or free exchange, iff you're accountable for how it's used. 02:50:26 Many people who own property have very little freedom in fact... especially if they have a mortgage to pay. 02:50:38 Can't move easily when you're carting a lot of stuff around. 02:50:38 then it's not really their property 02:50:38 synx: but that property belongs to the bank 02:50:49 klutometis: No, the loan belongs to the bank. 02:51:02 johnnowak, it's not an argument - it's a paradigm. 02:51:19 Fare: i didn't mean to characterize it negatively. that's all i meant to say. 02:51:29 synx: splitting hairs, don't you think? after all, AIG never filed for ch. 11: but they're still bankrupt 02:51:38 I'm just saying the more you become invested in something, generally the less liberty you have in terms of losing it. 02:51:41 just like evolutionism is not an argument and cannot be disproved. It's a paradigm with which you understand the world better. 02:52:01 synx: that's an old christian argument about disengaging from the saeculum 02:52:07 klutometis, the map isn't the territory 02:52:17 whatever symbol-worshippers say 02:52:21 klutometis: I think it goes a wee bit older than Christianity... 02:52:32 Fare: but there is an argument for evolution. and i'd hope you have an argument that property combines what you say it does. 02:53:06 synx: i'm trying to think of an ancient greek analog, but can't 02:53:13 Anyway many property rights allow the owner to do whatever the hell they want with it. Blow it up, pollute with it, dig holes, mine coal, whatever. So saying property implies responsibility is also invalid. 02:53:20 are you thinking more oriental? 02:53:36 yeah, and ascetism in general. 02:53:44 synx, it's only invalid if you still have it after you blow it up 02:53:59 and blowing it up may well impinge upon your neighbor 02:54:07 w.r.t. to air, water, etc. 02:54:28 klutometis, then the problem isn't what happened to it per se -- but what happened to your neighbours' property. 02:54:36 many people inherit property from their parents, or gain that property through various conformist rituals that assert normality more than merit. The existence of these people means property does not imply merit. Two words: Paris Hilton 02:54:44 Fare: indeed, thus the responsibility argument 02:54:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 02:55:02 synx: the parent deserved it, and is free to transfer it to whomever he pleases. 02:55:06 i'm not innocent here, but this really should be moved off channel... 02:55:20 anyway 02:55:44 what do you all think of clojure and other lisps? 02:55:59 or javascript? 02:56:03 And finally "reform schools" are built on private property, and sometimes go for years before the police even know about their existence, operating illegaly without any registration or qualification as a school, but since they're on private property, there is little to no accountability. 02:56:41 Thus, property does not necessarily bring liberty, responsibility, merit, or accountability. 02:56:53 *sladegen* pats sync on a back: nice deconstruction. 02:56:54 and now back to programming python bleh 02:56:56 synx, speak for the US. In France, you'd go to jail for that. Unless maybe you're a rabid muslim in which case they are too afraid of you. 02:56:58 johnnowak: eh; #not-math killed #math. isn't there an unwritten law that scheme trumps non-scheme, but that idle bandwidth can be usurped? 02:57:32 let's program PHP! 02:57:32 synx: indeed. property rights are a prerequisite for liberty, but holding property in something does not mean you have liberty 02:57:36 *johnnowak* vomits 02:57:38 *johnnowak* vomits 02:57:38 Fare: Well they had litigation pending against a few of the preachers running the places, but most of the time it takes years to shut a place down, and they open up in another state. 02:58:11 johnnowak: I wonder if they are a prerequisite. It's certainly true that if one person owns property, they can take away someone else's liberty who does not. 02:58:22 klutometis: it's not idle per se. the running of off topic conversation can discourage the start of an on topic conversation. 02:58:27 synx: there's some sort of implicit accountability-repsonsibility mapping you're making there that i don't agree with 02:58:41 (call/cc good) 02:58:57 synx: that is immaterial 02:59:07 johnnowak: possibly; but it seems like some saucy schemer will usually pipe up and redirect us in the positive sense 02:59:29 any scsh user around? 02:59:31 klutometis: i just like to stop before Riastradh starts piling up bodies 02:59:49 sorry I'll keep it to scheme now. 02:59:54 johnnowak: that's chandler's office, methinks; classic good-cop bad-cop scenario 03:00:02 ah right, my mistake 03:00:08 we need a third cop methinks 03:00:38 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #scheme 03:00:40 actually, i was fine with Riastradh's benevolent autocracy 03:01:08 irc channels should be autocratic as far as i'm concerned 03:01:27 it's not as if it's hard to start up competition if necessary 03:01:48 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-171-98.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:02:24 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:02:35 anyway, the scheme here is great; but some of the best extra-scheme discourse i've ever seen has been in #scheme 03:03:31 i may be wrong. 03:04:04 we should have a sign... "feel free to tell us to shut up so you can ask a question" 03:04:35 would go nicely in the topic; we used to have these informal friday-night gigs that i sorely miss 03:05:46 alright, two people begin arguing at length about something 03:05:49 hurry up 03:06:57 heh; libido's a funny thing: can't conjure it by imperative (come to think of it, maybe that's why i prefer functional programming) 03:07:09 I can't. I have to program SQL not scheme because I can't figure out how to sort the damned data. 03:07:48 synx: ran into just such a problem today; was doing sql from scheme, actually, but resorted to good ol' sort and uniq 03:09:18 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:46 Guess so... 03:10:53 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-171-98.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:12:44 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:26 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:59 sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-95-83.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:14:55 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:16:27 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:22 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 03:39:50 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 03:44:33 underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 03:51:33 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 03:54:12 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:17 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:04:18 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:24 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:04:39 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:57 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:05:09 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@221.235.57.213] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:15:49 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:19:50 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:19:51 i think it's quaint that compiling an ircd is frought with mysticism and dire warnings left over from the 80s 04:20:24 that must be back when people had "shell" accounts 04:20:50 I've heard of those. They used those to "log in", right? 04:23:06 heh 04:28:01 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176222096.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:28:04 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176206146.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:33:54 eli, ping 04:34:17 yes? 04:35:06 jonrafkind: pong 04:35:28 you didnt respond about my setup-plt timings 04:35:36 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:58 jonrafkind: yes, I forgot that you didn't have any other changes. 04:36:06 Not much else I can say about it. 04:36:23 so it takes a minute for you too? 04:36:37 Do you really want to know? 04:36:45 sure 04:37:11 ok, just a second. 04:39:13 jonrafkind: around 26s 04:39:27 oh on your super fast server 04:39:35 yes 04:40:42 ok ill grin and bear it I suppose 04:40:50 is there a -j 2 option or some such thing? 04:41:06 Not really. 04:41:10 maybe I have to wait for kevin to finish his os thread stuff 04:41:31 I don't think that it'll help much for this. 04:41:49 what is the bottleneck do you suppose 04:42:32 I think that there's not much that can be done. I tried once. 04:42:51 In any case, you're closer to the place for such questions. 04:42:58 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:42:58 yes yes 04:43:29 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.211.52.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 04:43:38 now what's the opposite of prefix notation called? 04:43:44 a = b - c + d * e; etc? 04:44:22 is that the opposite of prefix? 04:44:28 usually call that infix I guess 04:44:29 duno :) 04:44:34 ok 04:44:35 postfix? 04:44:42 qmail? 04:50:28 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:44 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:55:48 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:57 -!- aspect [i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com] has quit ["leaving"] 04:58:53 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 04:59:09 aspect [i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 05:00:33 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:01:50 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 05:03:17 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 05:04:09 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:09 AtnNn_ [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:04:19 hdon [n=donny@c-76-125-235-186.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:48 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:49 any salesmen on the floor? 05:04:59 Salesmen? 05:05:06 i need someone to tell me why i should use scheme 05:05:24 Sorry, that's a decision for you to make, not for us to make for you. 05:05:32 :( 05:05:51 hdon: sales.. 05:05:57 what's on your mind? 05:06:00 Perhaps you have some criteria for whose evaluation you need specific information that you expect we can supply? 05:06:35 i just want to know about scheme 05:06:44 what is it appropriate for? 05:06:50 what special moves does it have? 05:06:55 hdon: almost everything, and complex things in particular. 05:06:56 it makes good sandwiches 05:06:59 which implementations are preferred? 05:07:01 haddoken? 05:07:01 it's very flexible. 05:07:18 many implementations are very very good. do you have particular requirements? 05:07:18 are there any particularly noteworthy implementations? 05:07:27 many of them, in different respects. 05:07:30 plt, chez, mit 05:07:38 for instance, gambit and chicken compile to C. 05:07:39 hdon: don't forget about up down up down left right left right a b a b select start; that activates scheme cheat mode 05:07:44 chez and ikarus are incremental . 05:08:03 BW^-: what's incremental mean? 05:08:23 it compiles real quick on the fly, and it garbage collects binary code when no longer needed. 05:08:47 ..and does real-time execution flow analysis and optimizations if you're lucky. dunno if chez and ikarus does that yet. 05:08:54 ok, but what did you mean when yous aid they're "incremental" 05:09:00 ah 05:09:14 -!- AtnNn_ [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:40 there's more scheme environments around. there's bigloo too, mzscheme 05:09:43 sisc 05:09:46 et. 05:09:47 etc. 05:09:54 `Incremental' is not entirely a buzzword but means none of what BW^- said. Neither Ikarus nor Chez, to the best of my knowledge, contains a JIT compiler. Neither Gambit nor Chicken is a whole-program compiler -- both incrementally compile units of code which are then linked together with a run-time system. 05:10:56 Riastradh: so you mean none of those compilers produce machine code at run time? 05:11:15 A garbage collector may also be called `incremental', which has been used to mean various things, the least common denominator of which is that some `garbage collections' do not traverse the set of live objects (or, worse, the set of all objects) at once. 05:11:33 hdon: get to your core questions 05:11:48 what's your previous programming experiences, and your current objectives,e tc. 05:11:53 hdon, Chez, Ikarus, MIT Scheme, and some others produce machine code at run-time. Gambit, Bigloo, and Chicken require a C compiler before execution is possible. 05:12:21 then there's interpreted such as Gauche and Tinyscheme. 05:12:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ is now known as bsmntbombdood 05:12:48 What do you want to do with Scheme, hdon? (Interpret that as a subjunctive.) 05:13:14 do you know? want to experiment? 05:14:10 i'm a big fan of Python and Javascript. i use C occasionally. i use C++ occasionally. i've worked with several versions of the Python VM and several implementations of a Javascript runtime. i don't know the lua language very well but i know the virtual machine very well 05:14:25 That's not what you want to do, hdon. 05:14:26 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:14:28 i've just had a lot of thoughts about what i want a programming language and compiler to give me 05:14:36 and it seems like it can get very complicated 05:14:44 so i've decided just to see what else is out ther 05:14:55 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:15:29 i propose you read about scheme then. 05:15:30 I was looking for an answer more like, `I want to write a program to calculate celestial orbits using the mathematical abstractions of classical mechanics.' 05:15:57 Riastradh: is scheme good for implementing mathematical algorithms? 05:16:03 yes. 05:16:12 What's a `mathematical algorithm'? 05:16:26 An algorithm that exists only inasmuch as the axiom of choice implies it to exist? 05:17:00 hdon: Do you mean algorithms related to mathematics? 05:18:44 Riastradh: that's a very good question 05:18:58 Riastradh: Have you abandonded schematic web? 05:18:58 Riastradh: i'm having a hard time identifying the answer precisely 05:19:09 hdon, scheme is a functional language. what other languages do you know? 05:19:39 jonrafkind: c, c++, java, python, javascript mostly 05:19:43 Ooh semantic web I have questions about that. 05:19:55 scheme is more like python than the others probably 05:19:56 jonrafkind: by which i mean, those are the only languages i would claim to be an expert on 05:20:15 the real power of scheme (im sure others will disagree) is the macro system 05:20:19 jonrafkind: but C++ is ... well maybe i'm not an expert on C++, that can be rather complicated 05:20:29 you can rewrite vast portions of the code with very powerful utilities 05:20:33 FWIW, Scheme is closer to Javascript than to Python. 05:20:44 *schemantic web 05:20:45 yes.. ive though I was c++ expert once, but then I was sorely dissapointed 05:20:56 synx, most likely the answers are `yes, it's broken' or `because the Semantic Web folks are confused', but you are welcome to ask your questions. 05:20:59 jonrafkind: so scheme provides introspection into actual operational semantics? 05:21:11 jonrafkind: oh, macros 05:21:22 When creating a folksonomy style tag system, what's the best way to represent superset and subset, i.e. where one set of tags completely describes another? 05:21:23 i need a link to scheme macros 05:21:25 *hdon* googles 05:21:32 they are pretty tough to understand at first 05:21:35 Like when I search for "fruit" I also want to search for "apple" 05:21:37 but once you get used to them they are quite neat 05:21:44 But not when I search for "apple" leave other fruit out. 05:22:41 synx: do you really think everything fits into a hierarchical organization paradigm? 05:23:00 hdon, you may observe that my questions are rather general, and that I'm not throwing random information out at you. I suspect, from your original inquiry, that you have one of two motives: either you wish to expand your general knowledge of the world, but seek to prune trees which others suggest to you are useless, in which case adding some notions of Scheme to your repertoire is so trivial the pruning will take more effort; or 05:23:01 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 05:23:51 hdon: No I do not. However some things do fall along a hierarchy, or more like set operations, where results from one tag can overlap with another. 05:23:54 longest IRC message ever 05:24:11 Riastradh: your message cuts off at: "effort; or" 05:24:12 r2q2, if you send me bug reports for schemantic-web, or ask questions about it, I should probably answer. Something recently possessed me to use it for a personal purpose, at which point I discovered even more fundamental confusion in the Semantic Web, but aside from that I have no use for it of my own any longer. 05:24:44 synx: fuzzy logic developed during the 90s is gonna become popular again 05:24:57 I'm wondering if the solution is simply to have a hook that every time you set the "apple" tag it also adds on "fruit" "round" "tree-related" "plant" "organism" "uterus" and such. 05:24:57 hdon, or you have some specific problems you want to solve, in which case I want to know what those problems are so that I can better help you to solve them, if you believe that I (or anyone in this channel) would be appropriate to seek such help from. 05:25:17 synx, sorry, I'm missing some context here. 05:25:24 You'd still have to make a data structure for such hooks. Afterwards it would...sort of work... but I'm afraid too many tags on one thing... 05:25:30 Riastradh: ok, i have a specific problem i need help with 05:25:56 Riastradh: how do i write a scheme program which demonstrates all of its interesting and notable characteristics? 05:26:03 Riastradh: I'm trying to figure out how to take a folksonomy tag system, and have some tags imply other tags. Like when you search for "fruit" you get stuff tagged only with "apple" or "orange". 05:26:14 That's one of my questions. 05:26:36 hdon, Scheme is unaware of that information. You would have to supply the input yourself, because `interesting' and `notable' are relative to the beholder. 05:26:36 hdon, you could find the right sequence of numbers in pi and convert them to characters 05:26:46 Implementing complete set operations for every tag is pretty cumbersome... I doubt it would scale well. 05:26:47 synx: i've actually put a lot of work into that question. add "pull" and "push" to your data modeling lexicon 05:26:49 I think thats how windows ME was born.. 05:27:12 jonrafkind: Yea along with a bunch of drinking. 05:27:13 hdon: what happens when you pull and push? 05:27:17 synx, are you perhaps asking how an agent of the Semantic Web will represent and work with an ontology internally, such as an ontology described by OWL? 05:27:41 Right now you have asked about concepts, and about a specific choice in a mechanism concerning concepts, but I'm missing the context for this mechanism. 05:27:49 synx: sometimes manipulating data in a database is akin to maintaining an index that the database server doesn't know how to maintain 05:28:09 I'm not really getting specific to OWL or anything. Right now it's just tags, which are like words, kind of. 05:28:43 synx: depending on the anticipated ratio of requests for a certain type of data versus work maintaining a cache/index of that type of data 05:28:45 OWL was an example of an external representation for some of the information you described. 05:28:54 hdon: Yeah, the whole separation of database and client really gets me sometimes. I'd like to be able to write complex iterative sort of search algorithms instead of query based stuff. 05:28:55 synx: you'll find that some data are good "push" candidates and some data are good "pull" candidates 05:29:38 synx: there are some interesting databases out there that blur that line even more 05:29:49 hmm... 05:30:03 synx: a lot of forks/patches of/for postgres too 05:30:13 problem with local caching is database state can get inconsistent with the cache. 05:30:56 synx: some indexes are necessarily out of date 05:31:06 synx: in some places this is acceptable, in others it's not 05:31:52 What I was doing once was I had a sqlite database going, made it exclusive locked, and had one process answering requests over sockets for its contents. It worked so much better than actually using a socket-based database... still had problems though. 05:32:25 Didn't you just build a `socket-based database'? 05:32:30 yeah 05:32:34 what Riastradh said 05:32:45 Yeah, pretty much. 05:32:50 also: was it secure? stable? 05:33:02 But I could customize the protocol, instead of being restricted to SQL queries and blocking SQL libraries. 05:33:22 but really, i thought sqlite could communicate with other applications sharing access to a database? 05:33:27 as long as they had write permission 05:33:45 Isn't sqlite a `blocking SQL library'? 05:33:55 Oh sure it can, but I didn't want to bother with that. 05:34:03 synx: yes i agree. SQL as a data querying language is showing its age. 05:34:12 synx: everyone is using data access abstractions these days 05:34:23 Yeah, so why have SQL underlying at all... 05:34:25 synx: so-called "object/relational mapping" 05:34:33 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:35 synx: when SQL was born it was a boon to the market 05:34:42 Not everyone. SPARQL is still popular in the Semantic Web. 05:34:51 synx: it's still very useful for interoperability between database products 05:35:02 synx: you don't want to have to rewrite your application for every new database server 05:35:17 I think SQL would have been more of a boon if people generalized it to "let's make a bunch of query languages" instead of "let's use SQL for everything!" 05:35:27 synx: and you don't want a company getting locked into a poor database product by the prospect of an expensive database migration 05:35:46 So you could have postgrescheme and postgreperl and postgresql, depending on what you plugged in. 05:35:53 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 05:35:59 synx: i think that maybe you don't understand why you got a performance boost 05:36:05 Many aspects of SQL are sadly database specific. ALTER COLUMN... 05:36:37 I lost track of what this has to do with Scheme, or the Semantic Web, or solving problems. 05:36:43 yeah 05:36:46 answer my question Riastradh 05:36:51 I got a performance boost because the separation of tasks allowed database developers to optimize their algorithms without worrying about coupling with data processing algorithms others used. 05:36:55 Which one? I lost track of all the questions on the stack. 05:36:59 Riastradh: how do i write a scheme program which demonstrates all of its interesting and notable characteristics? 05:37:07 Riastradh: my point I was trying to make is a scheme based query language would be nifty :) 05:37:18 I answered that, hdon. That information is up to you to supply; Scheme can't do it. 05:37:42 synx: i believe there is a Scheme extension for Postgres 05:37:52 Riastradh: but you could provide it 05:38:04 Yes, but only for the user functions... 05:38:09 No, hdon, because I don't know what you're interested in. 05:38:21 SELECT schemehack(); heh 05:38:26 hdon: how do you write a C++ program which demonstrates all of its interesting and notable characteristics? 05:40:50 ((lambda (x) 05:40:51 (list x (list (quote quote) x))) 05:40:51 (quote 05:40:51 (lambda (x) 05:40:54 (list x (list (quote quote) x))))) 05:41:08 Look a scheme program that is interesting and notable. 05:41:59 eli, delete (void *)-1; 05:42:50 hdon: My question was serious. (Replace "C++" with any other language you want.) 05:43:40 hdon: scheme, being an unadorned vessel of the cosmos; is characterized by characterless, eternal solutions 05:43:46 hdon: try ruby if you want flavor 05:44:50 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 05:47:39 isn't (quote quote) bad syntax? 05:47:49 rudybot: eval (quote quote) 05:47:52 xz: ; Value: quote 05:47:58 oh! 05:48:03 yes 05:48:04 that's nice 05:48:17 silly me 05:48:53 rudybot: eval (quote (quote quote)) 05:48:54 synx: ; Value: (quote quote) 05:49:00 :o 05:49:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:49:17 macros are expanded outside in 05:49:42 avivo [n=Aviv@RANDOM-TWO-FIFTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:49:46 -!- avivo [n=Aviv@RANDOM-TWO-FIFTY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has left #scheme 05:53:06 eli: well my question wasn't serious 05:54:06 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:19 hdon: seems that several people, including me, missed the humor. 05:55:04 eli: it wasn't supposed to be funny, i just wanted someone to sum up scheme for me 05:55:18 I think eli wants someone to sum up C++ for him. Are you up for the challenge? 05:55:28 Zaktly. 05:55:34 eli: in fact it's sort of ridiculous to suggest that the information i wanted could be conveyed using scheme code anyhow 05:55:42 Riastradh: no i'm not 05:55:47 cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 05:55:51 Riastradh: is Scheme as complex as C++? 05:55:53 It doesn't make sense to "sum up X" for most languages X. 05:55:56 Personally I'm not sure I want anyone to sum up C++ for me, because I think it would overflow my arithmetic. 05:56:11 eli: i think it makes sense for more languages 05:56:13 (and scribble all over my page tables, probably, or something equally horrid) 05:56:30 Riastradh: s/page/partition 05:56:52 hdon: In that case, feel free to "sum up" some language so we can see what kind of summary you want. 05:57:20 Can you sum up Python for me or for eli? 05:57:42 were i sober 05:57:45 (The summary will probably look different depending on whom you are preparing it for, but I'm not sure whether the distinction will be obvious for you.) 05:58:10 hdon: Scheme is less complex than C++. 05:58:31 BW^-: i think that's a good characteristic to have 05:58:33 hdon: or perhaps one should say, that Scheme is simpler, and uncomparably much more well defined in its core components, than at least the previous revision of c++. 05:58:35 Gosh, is there a partial order of complexity on languages? Or even a total order? 05:58:49 hehe. i have an index number on each of them over here. :) 05:58:55 scheme has number 7. 05:58:55 :) 05:58:56 Riastradh: there could be 05:58:57 I meant to exchange `partial' with `total' in the above message. 05:59:19 BW^-: for most metrics that I'd choose, Scheme is more complex than C++. 05:59:28 really! how? 05:59:31 C++ beats Scheme over the stupid stuff, of course. 05:59:36 right. 05:59:44 and how defined the syntax is 06:00:25 Take macros, or continuations, or first class functions -- they all make Scheme much more complex than C++. 06:00:40 ah, sure 06:00:54 i thought about "complex" as "much details". 06:01:00 and in that respect perhaps c++ beats still, duno. 06:01:16 though in the sense complex as "sophisticated system", sure scheme beats alot 06:01:34 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:37 complex doesn't mean sophisticated 06:01:45 um, sorry for vague definitions. i'm a little bit tired. 06:01:58 just trying to save you from having to worry about it 06:02:10 I've lost track of the goal here again. 06:02:20 Are we trying to give hdon a hangover? 06:02:26 hdon: In any case -- for your next victim channel -- it would help if you clarify first that you're asking a meaningless question, that you're not serious about it, and that you're too drunk to actually expect an answer. 06:03:02 i'm not drunk. these types of questions don't work out well when you drink. 06:03:26 s/drunk/not sober/ 06:03:43 fyi i could sum up a lot of languages for you. and it does change depending on who you are rendering the summary for. it depends on the audience as much as the circumstances of the summary 06:04:05 i'm just high and i don't feel like bending over backwards to satisfy what sounds like a very negatively conceived intellectual challenge 06:04:27 if someone had wanted to test their mettle and sum up scheme for me, then i would have learned something, and maybe i wouldn't be the only one 06:04:47 hdon: the "intelectual challenge" was the question you posted. 06:04:52 would it be wise to compile scheme into machine code? 06:04:53 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 06:05:05 `Wise'? That's a curious adjective for the context. 06:05:15 Riastradh: thank you 06:05:18 Plenty of programs do it. Few people engage in the discussion. 06:05:22 ...er, in the activity. 06:05:36 hdon: the questions that you're asking are vague enough to not get you any meaningful answers. 06:05:57 I have compiled some trivial Scheme programs into assembly code (and assembled some trivial assembly code into machine code). 06:06:08 eli: i think that maybe you're just not very creative, and you may not be the only one, but i don't mean to offend anyone by saynig this 06:06:13 Whether I am wise is not for me to judge. Are the programs that do this on a regular basis `wise'? 06:06:34 some might see those two questions as being related 06:06:35 hdon: How the hell did you make that bright conclusion? 06:06:48 (So...you're saying...that I could have, on the tip of my fingernail, an entire universe just like the one we're in...?) 06:07:11 (no, not just like the one we're in. notable differences include our absence, and that it would be much much smaller.) 06:08:18 Maybe eli needs to share some of your spliff before he'll get as creative as you have been with your questions. 06:08:50 :) 06:09:01 *eli* had to look up "spliff". 06:09:01 Riastradh: i'm not feeling particularly creative. i think you guys just suffer from like.. asperger's or something 06:09:35 maybe this whole time you've been summing up scheme for me by demonstrating that its users are not human 06:09:51 that's it, you're androids 06:10:03 hdon, I have an intellectual challenge for you: 1. Sleep. 2. Review the conversation and the questions you've been asking tomorrow, when you're more `sober'. 06:10:09 androids are incapable of delicate discriminations like those involved in electing which details are suitable for a summary 06:10:16 hdon: I'm a bot! 06:10:51 -!- aspect [i=aspect@burns.dreamhost.com] has left #scheme 06:12:07 hdon: You know what? Here's a quick summary of Scheme: lambda-calculus roots, lexical scope, first-class functions, hygienic macros, user-extensible syntax abstractions, hygienic macros, modules in most cases (work well with syntax in some cases), tail-recursion, continuations, features can be added on an as-needed basis via new syntax. 06:12:15 hdon, also, here's a brief, fifty-page summary, probably ten times shorter than anything remotely worth calling a summary of C++: 06:13:40 -!- cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 06:13:54 eli: what do you mean by "modules in most cases?" and how does it "work well wth syntax in some cases?" 06:14:12 Magic! 06:14:17 *hdon* clicks 06:14:31 *eli* +1s Riastradh 06:15:32 Answers to those questions turn out to be very tricky and fraught with subtle details that both eli and I have spent a good deal of time thinking about -- a good deal more than most (but not all) other people on the planet, in fact, I think -- over the past few years. 06:15:32 hdon: Each of the items I listed deserves an explanation much longer than a single sentence or a page. This is why your question for a "summary of Scheme" is absurd. 06:16:29 eli: has it occurred to you understand the implications of each of those without your personally providing "a page" or explanation? 06:16:35 jeez relax 06:17:04 Specifically, I can give you an extremely short description of lambda-calculus, or turing machines, or a number of similar theoretical devices -- where each has *many* books written on what you can do with them. 06:17:04 ugh I feel dirty. 06:17:19 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/summary.cc 06:17:19 eli: that's not necesary 06:17:29 eli: btw you're definitely an android 06:17:37 summary of most of the "features" in C++. Goddamn it's been years... 06:17:45 minion: chant 06:17:45 MORE THAN 06:17:58 hdon, while there aren't books on macros and modules in Scheme (of which I'm aware, anyway), there is no shortage of papers on them. Here, for example, you can find a bibliography, with an entire section devoted to it: . 06:18:43 Two whole setions, actually, although I'm not sure that separating the two sections was a good idea. 06:18:51 Riastradh: sometimes one encounters redundancy when consulting multiple documents on a subject. it's really much easier to ask an IRC channel 06:19:31 It is easier if you have a specific collection of queries each one of which would require consultation of different resources, perhaps. 06:19:47 like a game of 20 questions 06:19:51 actually 06:20:01 that would be a great way to categorize programming languages 06:20:18 1. is it c++? 2. is it java? 3. is it scheme? ... 06:20:21 identify what characteristics can truly be considered distinguishing features 06:20:22 Excellent. Now let's enumerate how many categories of programming language we can find! 06:20:28 How many questions are there? 06:20:33 20. duh 06:20:42 Let this be n. Now the number of categories will be n^20, roughly. 06:20:57 ok, that was a stupid idea 06:20:58 erase it 06:22:06 I bet this entire channel -- nay, this entire IRC network -- can't name even 2^20 programming languages, but in order for the notion of twenty questions to make sense, n has to exceed twenty... 06:22:47 why does it have to be 2^20. cant some answers be duplicates 06:24:27 Riastradh: one of the reasons i said it was a bad idea was because many interesting characteristics apply to a language, and many apply to specific implementations of a language 06:24:31 Even if you change that estimate to be C(n, 20), n has to be pretty small for the number of programming languages to exceed the number of categories. 06:24:34 Riastradh: it was a really stupid idea 06:25:08 closures? 06:25:49 Pistachios? 06:26:18 -!- levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:27:39 scheme does not have pistachios 06:28:20 levi [n=user@levi.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 06:28:23 (make-pistachio) 06:28:24 ;Value 3: #[pistachio 3] 06:29:29 I'd respond with a clever poem about names and their significance, but I can't think of any offhand. 06:29:43 (Do androids appreciate poetry?) 06:30:08 nope, sorry. 06:30:12 must be why you couldn't recall any. 06:30:22 robot 06:30:32 Excuse me a minute; a wayward ladybug has roosted upon my desk and needs to be returned to its home. 06:30:44 I can remember plenty of poems, just not any clever philosophical ones about names. 06:31:10 then you should read the work of Douglas Hofstadter 06:31:18 For example, here's a poem of which I'm very fond: A dreary young bank clerk named Fennis / Wished to foster an aura of menace. / To make people afraid, / He wore gloves of grey suede, / And white footgear intended for tennis. 06:31:23 athos [n=philipp@p54B858F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:31:32 that's a limmerick 06:32:03 a... difficult one 06:32:04 yakov2 [n=yakov@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 06:32:09 hey 06:32:11 you kinda have to smoosh the words to say it properly 06:32:21 you fail at limmericks, robot 06:32:34 try haiku before moving on to limmerick 06:32:40 much less demanding 06:32:48 I'm trying to create a procedure which compares to sentences. "(if (= '(asd asd) '(as asd d)) 06:32:48 #t 06:32:48 #f)) 06:32:53 oops 06:33:27 who is going to help yakov2? 06:33:33 he's dropped his code all over the place 06:33:43 yea, sorry 06:33:54 I meant http://pastebin.com/m74f7bc03 :) 06:34:21 Why can't I do it like that? It complains that it wants 06:34:55 "Arguments to Scheme procedures are always passed by value, which means that the actual argument expressions are evaluated before the procedure gains control, whether the procedure needs the result of the evaluation or not." 06:35:03 eli: that would have been a notable characteristic 06:35:19 yakov2: try equal? 06:35:36 hdon: quick, name one language that you have used that lacks that characteristic. 06:36:04 klutometis a thanks 06:36:21 eli: Oz 06:36:53 eli: fortran? :P 06:36:57 err 06:36:59 i meant prolog 06:37:08 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.31] has joined #scheme 06:37:10 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:37:24 hdon, I will readily state that the form of haiku is far beyond me. 06:38:25 `Haiku', of course, means far more than a syllabic structure, to which any old fool can conform. 06:38:37 more importantly: even if you can mimic the haiku-prosody, i don't think the essence of haiku can be divorced from its pedigree without experiencing severe violence 06:38:53 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 06:38:54 to mix n metaphors 06:39:17 hdon: sometimes, wrong, and wrong. 06:39:36 klutometis: (can one be "divorced" from pedigree? isn't severe violence pleonastic?) 06:39:40 eli: then :P means something, you know 06:40:00 :P does not compute. 06:40:06 syntax error. 06:40:20 syntax errors require computation 06:40:43 hdon, I'm curious -- have you used Oz to much extent? It was excluded from your earlier list of familiar languages. 06:40:46 that's why we'll always have them 06:40:49 because we possess the computers 06:40:52 the computers that they need 06:41:05 Riastradh: i'm far from expert on oz 06:41:32 Riastradh: i was much more interested in the virtual machine, the language looked kinda gross 06:45:28 there is a separate "language used for data?" 06:48:03 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:27 (By the way, you misattributed the limerick.) 06:50:57 would you say scheme's notion of symbols is unique in any way? 06:51:26 benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 06:51:43 No. 06:52:08 the name is counterintuitive given my background 06:52:36 symbols are the operands of linkers in C and C++ 06:54:49 I'd suggest that you try not to get too tangled up by names like `symbol', but such advice would be hypocritical considering the complexity and difficulty of the concepts of naming and symbols in the first place. 06:55:27 it's not a big hurdle 06:56:46 A symbol is an atomic object -- an object with no internal structure -- which stands for itself and intrinsically represents nothing else. 06:57:28 There is a mapping between strings and symbols so that we can refer to symbols by mnemonic text. 06:58:07 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:48 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:01:52 i believe i had a similar idea. my idea was that any variable which is never assigned a value, but which is tested for identity and/or sorting, is assigned a value which is unique to all other variables which it can be compared to. an error must result from any comparison between it and a literal value, or something from the "outside" (reading data from a file or a socket, or any call to a native procedure) 07:02:22 or any calculated value i suppose 07:03:20 the result is turning any ad-hoc variable reference into an effectively unique literal value 07:04:21 but that's not always a good thing 07:04:28 like a pointer to invalid memory? 07:05:24 leppie: a pointer is just memory. you imbue it with a sense of identity by treating it as something that has an identity, like a pointer. 07:05:42 leppie: now a *variable* can be a pointer 07:05:50 leppie: but then no, not like a pointer 07:06:15 -!- travis|away is now known as travisbemann 07:06:16 ok 07:06:44 I wonder from the jargon of what programming language you are deriving your definitions of terms such as `variable', `pointer', and `identity'. 07:07:08 no string data type? 07:07:49 Please whole English sentences. 07:07:50 Riastradh: when i said "a point is just memory" i wasn't taking a definition from any literature on programming languages 07:08:01 pointer* 07:08:41 elmex [n=elmex@e180069147.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:09:22 i dont agree, a pointer is not the memory, it is the address of such memory 07:09:32 leppie: i didn't say its' "the" memory 07:09:50 leppie: it is, however, some memory, every bit as much as an integer is. and in C, you can interchange them if you really want to. 07:10:10 true 07:10:24 everything comes down to a number in C :p 07:10:29 *hdon* shrugs 07:10:37 C is designed for the CPU 07:10:46 Not from a strict interpretation of its definition. 07:10:47 or a certain kind of CPU rather 07:11:16 `Pointer' and `address' are neither synonymous nor even isomorphic concepts in C. 07:11:25 Riastradh: you're right. you'll need a less strict interpretation, because the definition of any system cannot describe its historical relationship to the hardware it was designed to run on 07:11:52 Riastradh: i didn't really say they were :( 07:12:03 The definition of C does not require an integer type to which any pointer type may be cast, by the way. 07:12:22 Riastradh: i think most C specifications do in fact require that 07:12:25 There exist practical implementations of C lacking such an integer type. 07:12:27 Nope. 07:13:37 You may be thinking of types such as intptr_t and uintptr_t; a closer look at these will reveal that these types are optional. 07:13:44 Riastradh: hmm, i suppose i can see how having an int type that can fully express any address in memory wouldn't be necessary.. were it not for the fact that the subscript operator used to access arrays is dependant on integer arithmetic involving the address to the array 07:15:22 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 07:16:22 Perhaps you'd like to identify the relevant clause in C99 that states that it must be possible to obtain an array object spanning all memory to which pointers can point. 07:17:20 T*p=NULL; 07:17:29 sort of a ridiculous gesture 07:17:37 but i think it illustrates how silly you're being 07:18:08 I hope you realize that 0 (or NULL) does not mean `an object with all bits zero' in a pointer context. 07:18:38 such a rule as that which you ask won't be IN C99, it is simply a natural consequence of rational logic that you cannot access what you cannot address if it must be addressable to be accessed 07:19:20 Maybe you'd like to explain to IBM that some of their computers can't exist in a rational universe. 07:19:29 you're retarded 07:20:45 You've never interacted with the AS/400, I see. It has the peculiar characteristic that pointers have 128 bits (and span all available media including the file system). 07:20:48 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:11 Whoa. That's a pretty strange system 07:21:20 and can the CPU not perform arithmetic on 128 bit integers? 07:21:43 i can see how it might not 07:21:48 No, the CPU (although that term might be slightly misleading) doesn't do 128-bit integer arithmetic. 07:22:11 but a compiler can write code which will do 128-bit integer arithmetic on that CPU 07:22:25 it'll do 64 bits and use the carry bit or whatever it has to do 07:22:59 the subscript operator is just shorthand for pointer arithmetic 07:23:01 That a compiler can do so is irrelevant; whether a conforming C compiler need not do so is the issue, and I claim that a conforming C compiler need not provide any integer type capable of holding a pointer. 07:23:33 Unless my memory is screwing with me, Riastradh is correct on that one 07:24:05 what stops you from using a pointer type to perform arithmetic? oh, i see, not all operations need be supported for pointer arithmetic 07:24:31 You can calculate pointer differences, but those are integers. 07:24:33 I wish I was able to pipe pdf files into grep 07:25:04 right, time for work 07:25:07 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-02fc4ca39cdc50d7] has joined #scheme 07:25:07 you two have fun! 07:25:16 One may not in general construct pointers to beyond one element past the end of an array, or to before the start of an array. 07:25:20 qebab: as i understand it, as long as you're looking for unicode strings, many PDFs do contain readable text 07:26:09 Riastradh: uh, why not? unless the array begins or ends at the beginning or end of the entire address space? 07:26:14 -!- Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:27:25 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:27:29 I'll give you one exact reference to C99. Do you want it to be for this? 07:29:37 nicholasw_ [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 07:30:30 A C implementation is perfectly well allowed to send demons flying out of your nose if you subtract one from a pointer to the beginning of an array object, or add one to a pointer one element past the end of an array object. The concept of `entire address space' is irrelevant. 07:31:00 yay for nasal daemons! 07:31:29 C arrays don't even know their size at runtime 07:32:01 Correction: C programs are not guaranteed a way to the sizes of arrays at run-time. 07:32:08 ...`to detect the sizes' 07:32:14 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has joined #scheme 07:32:20 C is a systems programming language. variables are symbolic arbiters of access to meaning-agnostic memory. 07:32:36 if there is a C spec, or a C implementation, which does provide array size detection, i would never use it 07:33:38 The question of asking an array of its size at run-time is irrelevant to the earlier concern about pointers outside of array objects, however. 07:35:00 Try C99, Section 6.5.6 `Additive Operators', paragraph 8. It is too long to quote here entirely; the relevant sentence is: 07:35:34 `If both the pointer operand and the result point to elements of the same array object, or one past the last element of the array object, the evaluation shall not produce an overflow; otherwise, the behaviour is undefined.' 07:36:33 (The operands here are operands of an additive operation, i.e. A + B or A - B.) 07:38:11 In fact, I was wrong earlier. You are not even guaranteed that pointer differeneces within the same array object will yield defined results. 07:38:51 The moral of this story is that you should be careful to distinguish `GCC as it is realized on the machine you are typing at' from `C'. 07:39:01 derferencing a pointer is different from having a pointer 07:39:17 Nowhere in this discussion was dereferencing mentioned. 07:39:25 you just said it ten seconds ago 07:39:32 In fact, I was wrong earlier. You are not even guaranteed that pointer differeneces within the same array object will yield defined results. 07:39:32 This fragment of C code may lead to nasal demons: 07:39:42 oh differences 07:39:48 { int x[1]; f(x + 2); } 07:40:04 you know the size of that pointer at build-tmie 07:40:09 err 07:40:13 the array which is pointed to by x 07:40:42 wow this is the most pointless discussion i've ever had 07:40:58 Even this fragment of C code may lead to nasal demons, even ignoring memory exhaustion: { int * x = malloc (sizeof int); f(x + 2); } 07:41:17 hdon: Riastradh will keep going until you realize you shouldn't just make blanket statements about a language whose spec you haven't read :) 07:41:25 I like reading. 07:41:36 I like it when people read and do their homework. 07:43:04 I don't care whether you're sleep-deprived, stoned, drunk, tripping, or having a lobotomy as you type, as long as you're coherent and indicate that you've done your homework. 07:44:52 But neither are you coherent nor have you done your homework (and while not having read the C99 is excusible, the R5RS is considerably less so), so I'm amusing myself while I procrastinate something unrelated. 07:44:57 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-02fc4ca39cdc50d7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:45:18 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 07:45:39 You have to pay to be able to read C99, no? 07:45:49 (I know drafts are floating around on the net for free) 07:45:53 That's one excuse, although finding drafts is relatively easy. 07:45:58 aye 07:46:14 Do the drafts differ a lot from the final specs? 07:46:34 -!- nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:27 I have never had the inclination to check. The thing is five-hundred pages of what could hardly be called a page-turning thriller. 07:47:34 :) 07:47:59 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:49:08 -!- mike [n=mike@dslb-088-066-229-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:49:19 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:49:34 I think I'll go to bed now, since my source of (admittedly rather mild) amusement has grown quiet. 07:49:52 good night 07:50:22 (If it is any consolation, I shall apply the intellectual challenge I mentioned earlier to myself, and find that I have been somewhat obnoxious tonight, and ought not to have gone on so long.) 07:59:32 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 08:00:33 -!- travisbemann is now known as travis|away 08:06:02 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Client Quit] 08:12:09 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-27-199.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 08:23:01 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.228] has joined #scheme 08:26:51 Debolaz [n=debolaz@195.159.114.206] has joined #scheme 08:28:11 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 08:30:01 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-25-2.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:15 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:35:00 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:43:12 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:29 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A046B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 08:45:45 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 08:52:45 Wasn't C99 meant to cure sleep deprivation? 09:00:31 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:50 beckheng [n=chatzill@218.20.188.141] has joined #scheme 09:01:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:09:52 pbusser2: in the same sense that r6rs cures impotence 09:12:01 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:14 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-253-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 09:15:47 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 09:16:06 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:25:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 09:28:47 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.211.52.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:35:49 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:35:52 mmc2 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has joined #scheme 09:37:21 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@ZQ174212.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:38:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read 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[n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:09:32 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:09:43 sili_ [n=sili@222.127.53.204] has joined #scheme 10:10:57 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:13:42 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-94.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 10:21:13 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:23:26 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:37 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 10:29:01 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-253-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:06 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 10:38:49 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 10:41:36 -!- _p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:43 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.248.218] has joined #scheme 10:49:58 sphex_ [n=sphex@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:50:21 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8b155bc38f864eb8] has joined #scheme 10:53:06 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:15 I tried google but didn't find much useful info, what does symbolic programming really means? 10:54:36 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Pied@trex.iro.umontreal.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 10:55:31 Axioplase [n=Pied@trex.iro.umontreal.ca] has joined #scheme 10:55:46 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 10:58:13 xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 11:02:17 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:04:52 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:07 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 11:06:52 -!- sphex [n=sphex@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:04 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 11:13:49 yakov2: wikipedia defines it as programming in a third-generation languages 11:14:05 yakov2: it seems like people distinguish between symbolic languages (scheme, stella, ...), though, and symbolic algebra (macsyma, ...) 11:21:13 What do you mean by a third-generation language? 11:21:38 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberry"] 11:22:01 ah nevermind, read about it at wikipedia 11:23:13 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:16 mmc2 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has joined #scheme 11:30:59 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-38-65.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 11:42:05 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 54 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[Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:24:13 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:26:08 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086160.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 13:30:39 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:32:19 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:02 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 13:36:03 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host243-236-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 13:37:11 kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2AD62.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 13:38:56 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:39:41 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has quit [] 13:41:56 -!- mike [n=mike@dslb-088-067-025-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:48:06 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:50:36 <|tommie|> hello. 13:51:34 Kinks_ [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 13:52:39 <|tommie|> I have a question about exercise 1.7 from SICP. It is about finding of square roots. There is the code: http://www.shorttext.com/2xa9oc 13:52:57 <|tommie|> I can't understand why variation with 'good-enough?' predicate has worse precision than one with 'better-good-enough?' 13:56:46 <|tommie|> Can anyone help me with this? 13:57:58 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 13:59:57 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host243-236-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 14:03:10 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has joined #scheme 14:04:14 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 14:06:55 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:39 morning 14:15:12 |tommie|: because the difference between the guesses is smaller. 14:15:47 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 14:16:20 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 14:20:50 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 14:23:05 |tommie|: better-good-enough does one more iteration. 14:24:59 <|tommie|> kuribas: uh, one iteration gives such significant accuracy...thanks. 14:25:59 |tommie|: Yes, method of Newton converges really quickly. 14:26:04 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086160.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:39 huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has joined #scheme 14:36:12 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:36:46 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:36:55 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:42:32 -!- |tommie| [n=~@93.190.182.214] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 14:45:28 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:45:56 wingo-tp [n=wingo@22.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 14:48:46 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86804.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:00:33 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 15:08:06 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.26] has joined #scheme 15:11:22 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:12:18 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:49 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:14:07 rmns [n=ramunas@88.222.137.30] has joined #scheme 15:17:22 arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-204-113.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 15:20:37 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 15:26:19 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 15:26:47 -!- aep [n=aep@unaffiliated/aep] has quit ["ZNC by prozac - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 15:27:02 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:23 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:29:29 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:31:43 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:11 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has left #scheme 15:38:46 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #scheme 15:40:06 Why can I not access the procedure set-car! ? 15:40:10 it's in r5rs 15:40:53 Because you're not using the r5 language 15:40:58 You're using PLT 15:41:04 (just guessing here) 15:41:15 ah, I am using plt 15:41:16 or, because the PLT language no longer _has_ set-car! 15:41:26 s/or, // 15:41:32 What do you guys use? 15:41:37 for r5rs 15:41:51 I use Chicken Scheme :) 15:41:51 I don't use _anything_ for r5rs; r5rs is lame and useless. 15:42:06 I don't use strict r5rs either 15:42:10 might be fine as some sort of abstract standard, but as a language for actually getting stuff done-- useless. 15:42:19 (nobody in here does, usually) 15:42:24 hdon, (require mlist) (set-mcar!) 15:42:38 I was curious why set-car was taken out 15:42:49 It was an experiment, iirc 15:42:54 it was just renamed 15:43:18 using mutable data breaks all sorts of assumptions that the compiler likes to make 15:44:23 I also saw a reference to, cons immutable and mutable 15:44:53 wait a minute, if the case is I want to change the first item in a list, what would the method be to do this 15:44:57 if set-car is deprecated 15:45:00 create a new list? 15:45:04 (set-mcar! ) 15:45:11 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8b155bc38f864eb8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:45:24 you can only use it on mutable lists, made via (mlist) 15:45:52 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:45:57 ah so stuff made with cons is immutable 15:45:58 there are m versions of all the normal list procedures, mcons, mcar, mcdr, etc.. 15:46:00 yes 15:46:41 jonrafkind, is mlist in a library? I don't see this procedure 15:46:52 oh maybe make-mlist 15:46:55 let me check 15:46:57 sorry, I'm running through r5rs, and some tutorials and learning (: 15:46:58 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:59 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:59 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 15:47:22 oh (require mpair) (mlist 1 2 3) 15:47:40 its only a plt thing 15:48:40 this chicken scheme looks interestin 15:49:04 *sjamaan* clucks approvingly 15:50:45 I thought clicking was generally _dis_approving 15:50:57 or perhaps that's just in the benighted culture from which I come 15:51:14 clicking maybe 15:51:19 But not clucking! 15:56:16 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.250.39] has joined #scheme 15:56:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:58:25 *offby1* only now notices his typo 16:02:39 langmartin [n=user@c-69-136-50-201.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:02:56 nicholasw [n=nw@ckc-109-118.ResHall.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:05:16 huyslogic: to change first element in a list you could always do (let ((new-list (cons new-el (cdr old-list)))) new-list) ... quack! 16:05:46 Who is currently in the Scheme Steering Committee? 16:06:51 Ghost D. Zombie? 16:07:13 Thank you sladegen 16:07:26 I know python very well, but am trying to get my head around scheme (: 16:12:13 they share some similarities 16:13:17 kinda like dogs and crocodilles, both have four legs ;) and a tail, too. 16:13:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 16:16:29 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:16:52 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:56 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 16:22:39 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host95-12-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 16:25:09 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-105-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:04 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:29:14 huyslogic: well, so do I. And theres quite a lot of similarities. 16:30:03 (: 16:30:11 like what so far leo? 16:30:24 I have a really large project I'm going to start 16:30:33 so i figured I was going to do it in the django framework 16:30:34 save some time 16:31:59 -!- langmartin [n=user@c-69-136-50-201.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:32:59 sladegen: more than that :) 16:33:41 GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:34:53 huyslogic: http://4.flowsnake.org/ might interest you 16:43:14 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 16:45:46 mike [n=mike@dslb-088-067-025-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 16:47:26 Hey... is web development a good idea in scheme? 16:47:53 I was thinking about that myself, because I quite like the django with python combination 16:48:36 Web Development is very pleasant in Scheme. 16:48:50 Whether or not you think it is a good idea for your project is another question. 16:48:57 I see 16:49:11 arcfide: how so with web dev? 16:49:18 where are the downsides? 16:49:19 Hm? 16:49:25 I just picture myself writing a lot of html files and the cgi in scheme 16:50:09 Scheme has at least one continuation based web server, lots of http client and server code, cgi and xml tools galore, mod_lisp and mod_scgi modules, as well as frameworks for doing RoR type development. 16:50:33 arcfide: seriously? where? ahaha 16:51:09 PLT Scheme has a continuation based web server built in. SCSH had a simple web server in it. Magic is a RoR type web framework that has either a mod_scgi interface, or a proxied web server interface. 16:51:35 MIT Scheme has mod_lisp features, as well as its own record based xml tools. 16:51:56 IronScheme has a little MVC framework that runs on ASP.NET 16:51:58 Oleg's site includes numerous cgi processing utilities as well as SSAX/SXML, which is a popular XML processing library. 16:52:11 Yes, and the new kid has MVC. 16:52:16 lol 16:52:46 Of course, if you want to use any Java framework, you can link in directly with one of the Java based systems. 16:52:52 i just wish i didnt hate web dev so much, then i would extend it 16:53:12 Thus, I say, Scheme web development is very pleasant, because there are a host of tools and directions to choose from. 16:53:23 but i must do it, it's part of the plan 16:53:32 However, some of these tools need polishing for commercial stability, though some are fine as they are. 16:53:46 Some of them reuqire some porting to your favorite systems. 16:54:11 So you may have to extend and assemble the pieces that you want until you get a framework that you like. 16:54:25 Some consider this good, others, bad. 16:54:30 You can decide. 16:55:14 Oh, and of course, forget the web, use Gopher. :-) 16:55:26 *arcfide* laughs evilly. 16:56:29 gopher! I'm totally down for that. 16:56:42 keyofnight, there is a Gopher server written in Scheme. 16:56:46 Called Goscher. :-) 16:56:58 [^^^ Shameless plug.] 16:57:02 I believe it. 16:57:12 Hehe. 16:57:25 Anyways, yeah, I hope that gives you a little view of the landscape. 16:57:47 I'm not sure if scheme, in it's current state, would do as well rails or django tho... 16:57:57 looking at what you've pointed me to. 16:58:05 If you want Rails, try Magic. 16:58:18 I have found it very good, and it's small, easy to use, and Schemely. 16:58:23 *leppie* looks for his wand 16:58:28 nope its gone 16:58:50 keyofnight: the rails project I worked on took one person to prototype quickly and fifteen people to fix scaling issues 16:59:10 proq: sounds like rails to me. :/ 16:59:17 I'm not a fan of rails. 16:59:20 I have a little more confidence in Magic. 16:59:33 Though, I haven't ported it to Chez Scheme yet. 16:59:43 I think I just finished a port of MIT Scheme's RB trees. 17:00:01 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host95-12-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 17:00:08 considering that I can't get to the Magic site... 17:00:17 magic.poseur.com. 17:00:17 because it's self-hosted and down... 17:00:17 lol 17:00:20 Hehehe. 17:00:24 Oh, you're looking at V3. 17:00:29 You'll need to talk to Ed. 17:00:40 He's probably doing something with it, or simply isn't aware that he broke something. ;-) 17:00:53 He doesn't consider himself as working to make it production stable. 17:01:02 Thus, it would be up to you to make sure that it was so. 17:01:11 Feel free to play with v2 though. 17:01:18 v2 is the mod_scgi version. 17:01:43 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A046B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:49 If you want to see a sample app that was written in it, you can check out habit3, which I wrote a while back to test out AJAX programming with Scheme. 17:02:14 arcfide: hrm. things like that worry me. I'm looking for a solid ground to build on. I don't know scheme that well in the first place. 17:02:27 What do you mean solid ground? 17:02:30 what scheme did he use? 17:02:35 Scheme48. 17:02:39 But it's fairly portable. 17:02:41 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.26] has quit [] 17:03:04 cool, I'll have to check it out 17:03:46 -!- kuribas [i=kristof@d54C2AD62.access.telenet.be] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:05:02 when I say solid ground, I mean... a common framework with lots of work done on it... the lack of a common scheme implementation worries me (different package systems and implemented SRFIs)... 17:06:28 Some would consider that an advantage. 17:07:00 We don't want a common implementation, because one size does not fit all. 17:07:05 Choose the one you like, then use it. 17:07:23 that's true. but then things like "support" seem to go out the window. 17:07:25 keyofnight: yeah, I'm worried about that in linux. one has ports, others have apt-get. one builds systems from the ground up, others come in a shiny package 17:07:53 Chez Scheme is a commercial system with excellent support; PLT Scheme has a wonderfully active community; Chicken and others have very dedicated communities. 17:08:09 proq: great thing is... in linux, there are enough people working on it that the resources can be spread thin. 17:08:39 arch is relatively new in the linux world, but there are so many people working on it. lol 17:08:39 keyofnight: Even if they are working on different things, they are still Schemes. Code can be shared. 17:09:18 keyofnight: I recommend you keep playing with Scheme and you'll see that support isn't that bad. 17:09:28 At least, I don't think support is a weakness of Scheme. 17:09:40 arcfide: yeah. I've been thinking about that. I've found from lurking in here that a lot of people just know the ins and outs of all the implementation... 17:10:38 ...and in here, there aren't any assholes. lol. I've never been called a newb or stupid or anything like that. 17:10:47 So what are you worried about? 17:10:50 :-) 17:10:54 Write some code! 17:11:06 what I'm worried about is my lack of knowledge and my need to get things done. 17:11:26 I need.. tutorials. references. things like that. 17:11:27 lol 17:11:44 one of the great things I think about Scheme is that there are a decent number of useful books on the topic 17:11:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-94.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:45 Have you gone through SICP, HtDP, The LIttle Schemer, &c.? 17:11:51 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 17:12:03 each one in a small degree. lol 17:12:08 There is no lack of Scheme literature out there. 17:12:10 Well, Teach Yourself Scheme is on the web 17:12:22 Nonono.. not just general scheme stuff. 17:12:30 & the books are pretty much universally good within their individual domains 17:12:33 keyofnight: there is also hop.inria.fr ... but some do not consider bigloo a real scheme ;-() 17:12:42 but like... where are the docs on... this magic framework? 17:12:59 It has none, afaik 17:13:02 For Magic, there is some documentation, but not a lot. 17:13:15 Many times the interfaces are documented in the code comments. 17:13:27 arcfide: But code comments != a tutorial 17:13:40 Exactly. 17:13:49 sjamaan: For tutorials, Magic has example applications. 17:13:59 *arcfide* has never understood the strong desire for tutorials. 17:14:06 What exactly do you want a tutorial to show you? 17:14:17 The structure of the framework, for example 17:14:19 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.202.67.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:14:20 Where to start 17:14:42 If you have a bunch of code, even in an example application, you don't know how the code flows, for example 17:14:50 Tutorials are, in their best form, illuminating explanations of how things are done. They show you the ropes. 17:14:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 17:14:58 it all started 13.5 billion years ago in one big... 17:15:02 meh, all too often they end up like the Arc tutorial 17:15:18 imo, tutorials are good for learning how to use complicated GUIs like blender. For languages, I like having a huge list of common problems with source 17:15:26 The biggest problem is when the code is very concise 17:15:32 keyofnight: Someone should write documentation for Magic, but otherwise,that documentation would show you the ropes as well as the tutorial would. 17:15:36 Sometimes you just need something like an overview 17:15:58 arcfide: depends on how the documentation is organized, displayed, and collected. 17:16:37 Ture. 17:16:37 I just don't see such a trend in scheme. It's just like... everyone knows everything and reads the language as if it's second nature. 17:16:37 I don't know about Django, but I think that, for example, the Rails routing system would be very hard to grok just by reading a few routes 17:16:37 True, even. 17:16:40 There's just a couple of lines that do a whole lot 17:16:42 BW^-4376 [i=Miranda@94.191.153.145.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:16:54 If you don't know what the implications of those few lines are, you'll be lost 17:17:19 wouldn't documentation be a better guide there than a tutorial? 17:17:19 lol... I just bought a reference book on ruby... they just tell me what the language does... gives me a few short examples... ll 17:17:23 keyofnight: There are some people, like Riastradh, who take documentation seriously, there are others who use documentation as a hinting mechanism for their own hacking. 17:17:38 keyofnight: I think the pickaxe is pretty decent 17:17:39 keyofnight: that's because there are such excellent books and videos like the mit lectures on SICP and scheme in fixnum days 17:17:46 keyofnight: But too superficial 17:18:04 You're not really learning anything too new when you check out Magic. It's just another Scheme program. 17:18:14 They all have similar looks anyways. 17:18:17 KFP-2397: Good documentation can be better than a tutorial 17:18:26 KFP-2397: But most documentation isn't that good :) 17:18:29 sjamaan: yeah. I didn't like it too much. It's kind of...yeah. Superficial. That new O'Reilly book by Matz is bloody excellent. It's Documentation in it's purest. (: 17:18:40 sjamaan: neither are most tutorials 17:18:41 I haven't checked it out 17:18:44 As for Magic, while there isn't documentation, the code is easy to read. You'll notice some code to start the server, some code to handle hooking, &c. 17:18:49 I almost don't do any more Ruby hacking anymore 17:19:24 this discussion only proves that programming is never ending chasing of APIs... 17:19:30 KFP-2397: Tutorials tend to have more focus 17:19:44 certainly 17:19:48 Some docs are mixed for beginners, advanced hackers and just a reference guide 17:19:52 Those are the worst 17:20:02 dunno; depends on what you want it for 17:20:11 keyofnight: I am sure we would welcome someone who wants to write tutorials. 17:20:23 I try to document my code pretty well. 17:20:34 If you find problems in my documentation for software I have released, let me know. 17:20:46 KFP-2397: The Rails doc is a good example. It's not complete enough for an API doc, too lengthy for an introduction and too superficial if you've read the book 17:21:06 sure, documentation can suck hard too 17:21:21 The phpdocumentor docs are another example of bad docs 17:21:21 I just find that tutorials often lend a false sense of confidence 17:21:24 sladegen: there are tools that search the APIs for you 17:21:37 And it's called "Guide to writing excellent documentation"! 17:22:24 I definitely prefer good documentation to tutorial.. but either would be fine. lol.. 17:22:29 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.202.67.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:22:39 yep 17:22:41 at least so that I'd have something to go on, you know? 17:23:01 You can piece together the basics if the docs are good, making tutorials unneccessary 17:23:24 right, plus you can trace through things like your route example 17:23:44 yeah 17:24:23 proq: not tool will substitute you comprehending and internalizing the API. 17:24:49 Visual Studio! ;-) 17:25:04 Eclipse! 17:25:25 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:27 but magic? no docs to speak of. 17:25:49 I imagine a lot of people here would take their docs seriously. Lot of good coders in here. (: 17:25:58 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 17:26:19 I'm not sure the two are related 17:26:20 sladegen: I couldn't possibly internalize all the APIs I use across all the OSes and languages I use 17:26:49 I'd love to write something in scheme. Web development oriented. I want to see about writing artistic media tools in scheme too. 17:26:54 proq: perhaps you meant memorize... 17:26:57 sladegen: people create references for a reason 17:27:31 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.250.39] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:38 keyofnight: http://www.okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/web.html 17:27:43 ;) 17:27:50 and i agree... man and info pages are there for a reason, but they are of little use to some one brand new to unix e.g. 17:28:05 There is Fluxus & Impromptu for artistic/media tools 17:28:30 x/There is/ c/There are/ . 17:28:34 keyofnight: Many of us do not document some of our code which we do not feel comfortable providing to the outside world with any sense of pride. 17:28:52 Some of us release our code as perpetual beta code, mostly for our own interest, and this code is often not documented. 17:29:03 arcfide: I could never not document. if I don't I don't follow what it is I was doing. 17:29:09 I'm still a newb. lol 17:29:12 helps me think. 17:29:23 Documentation is good, and I agree, of course. 17:29:29 I document even my toy code to some extent. 17:29:30 KFP-2397: !!! Lovely!!! 17:29:32 lol 17:29:36 Oftentimes, though, it's in my CVS logs. 17:29:46 Actually, that's how most of MIT Scheme is documented. ;-) 17:29:54 you can tell 17:31:04 Fluxus is pretty cool though; I've not played with Impromptu much though :/ 17:31:10 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:32:00 I like scheme48's documentaton. 17:32:05 pretty clean stuff. 17:32:24 s48 is pretty clean in general 17:32:28 scsh is pretty good too 17:33:18 how is the community about media related stuff? graphics and audio? 17:35:50 would I end up having to write my own bindings for things like opengl/openal... or end up porting them from some other implementation? 17:36:07 there are some 17:36:09 That depends on what implementation you use, but what's wrong with porting the stuff you want? 17:37:07 people are used to the python/ruby/perl systems of just downloading & building stuff, and I can't say there's really too much wrong with it 17:37:23 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054E34.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:56 none... I'm just trying to get a feel for how things are done. Every group has it's conventions. 17:38:00 -!- BW^-4376 [i=Miranda@94.191.153.145.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:11 The rest of the world is all about DRY now. 17:38:16 keyofnight: Some schemes have OpenGL bindings, others do not. 17:38:45 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:51 some also have good FFIs, so bringing one on shouldn't be an issue either 17:39:09 Right. 17:39:14 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 17:39:27 keyofnight: DRY is just common sense, if you ask me 17:39:39 I'm looking at gauche's bindings, right now. looks fine. (: 17:39:41 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:39:45 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 17:40:14 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:32 well, DRY does reduce things like having three different & incompatible HTTP systems in various forms of support & development 17:40:39 vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 17:40:48 esp. if there come pre-packaged 17:40:56 hehe 17:41:10 Yeah. I feel that. 17:41:28 isn't that CLs curse: multiple packages, all over, with different people, groups, patches, &c. &c. &c. 17:41:52 yeah. I really think that's what keeps people from using it... 17:41:56 sometimes great stuff comes out, like Ironclad or Hutentouch, but other times its just various forms of decay 17:42:01 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.140.181.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 17:42:05 well, that & the whole 'functional programming is scary' 17:42:06 ;-) 17:42:10 heh 17:42:14 ...and parens. (: 17:42:16 DRY? 17:42:19 OH NOES 17:42:20 woops, brb, meeting (at least it's about XQuery) 17:42:21 PARENS! 17:42:25 Don't Repeat Yourself 17:42:27 arcfide: Don't Repeat Yourself 17:42:44 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:42:59 KFP-2397: have fun. (: 17:43:56 I think I'll really start learning scheme for my rendering project. lol 17:44:24 Or maybe I'll start small. Scheme48 package manager. 17:44:57 keyofnight: Eh?? 17:45:21 If you really are interested in this kind of stuff, I have decided to tackle a Scheme Repository project on the side. 17:45:40 It will be different than those that came before it, but this difference may render it intractible with the amount of free time I have. 17:45:46 keyofnight: Of course you're welcome to use any Scheme you like, but I think s48 has one of the smallest communities around, and the least support 17:46:09 Don't let that deter you! ;-) 17:46:18 :) 17:46:31 but it does have slime48 17:46:33 s48 is a beautiful implementation, that's for sure 17:46:53 SLIME48 is in decay, I think. It hasn't worked since v1.3, I believe, unless someone picked up the ball? 17:47:00 my friend tells me I should go mzscheme. 17:47:22 Lot's of people like mzscheme, I say go Petite. ;-) *laughs evilly* 17:47:36 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 17:47:37 :) 17:47:59 Actually, what you should do, is use more than one, and then figure out which one suits you the most, and don't be afraid to switch when your needs to tastes change. 17:48:14 ^ solid advice 17:48:19 Boston Lisp Meeting next monday at 1800, MIT 32-124: Tim McNerney 17:48:20 hhaha 17:48:46 chez looks good. 17:49:02 Hehe, I said that because I use Chez; it also happens to have a very silent community. 17:49:11 Well, that is, very silent group of people who use it. 17:49:14 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@22.Red-79-156-144.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:49:25 arc: too busy coding to say anything? 17:49:34 Hehe, I'd like to say that. ;-) 17:49:42 It costs money, huh? 17:49:47 The compiler does. 17:49:52 The interpreter is free for all uses. 17:50:39 I want to write an interactive rendering engine. That's what I want to write more than anything else. 17:52:22 so any idea about the purpose of *TOP* in SXML+ 17:52:29 *keyofnight* sighs. 17:52:43 Until I get some skills... I will be lurking. lol 17:52:54 time for food. 17:52:57 cheers. 17:53:24 BW^, *TOP* is just used to identify the top of a document. I think it uses *TOP* for something like namespaces and such. 17:53:35 That is, *TOP* is followed by namespaces and then the root. 17:53:42 Or something like that. 17:53:54 Afaik *TOP* contains *PI* and the root 17:54:02 (*PI* is processing instructions) 17:55:09 -!- GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 17:57:29 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 17:58:24 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:58:35 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:40 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:03:24 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 18:04:48 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 18:06:06 wy [i=wy@iub-vpn-194-172.noc.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 18:06:07 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-204-113.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit ["See y'all."] 18:06:44 -!- wy [i=wy@iub-vpn-194-172.noc.indiana.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:25 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless36.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:08:52 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 18:09:27 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 18:10:20 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 18:14:58 lolcow [n=lolcow@196-210-146-254-ndn-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:16:48 *ventonegro* can't wait to vote for the steering comitee 18:16:54 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:06 ventonegro: who are you going to nominate/vote for? 18:17:54 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 18:18:02 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-19-92.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:18:06 -!- lolcow is now known as leppie 18:18:54 what makes you think democracy works for language design (or anything)? 18:19:07 samth, when are you coming to speak at the boston lisp meeting? 18:19:36 hmm 18:19:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 18:19:54 samth: I know who I am *not* voting for 18:20:02 samth: but I won't tell for now :-) 18:20:12 aw, don't leave us hanging 18:20:34 :-P 18:20:45 i mean, i'm not going to vote for either John McCain or Simon P-J for the Scheme steering committee, but that's not very interesting 18:20:54 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 18:21:25 so, it's Nader all the way? 18:21:34 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:22:07 Obama will change Scheme! He'll introduce new syntax with braces, stop the tail-recursion and continuation nonsense, introduce classes, etc. 18:22:56 it will be called 1+(Scheme) 18:23:36 no, just C++ 18:24:12 yes, that's why we Need a Maverick to introduce Java! 18:25:12 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #scheme 18:25:21 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:30 -!- sili_ [n=sili@222.127.53.204] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:14 jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has joined #scheme 18:29:17 -!- jdijk [i=jdijk@ftth-212-84-159-210.solcon.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:40 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 18:37:54 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:41:43 langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 18:56:07 but seriously, who should we vote for? who should we vote against? what platforms will people run on? 18:56:54 i386 -- the most popular platform 18:57:15 (or is it secretly ARM?) 18:57:20 very funny, Fare 18:57:31 is that like a new iMac? 18:57:33 :p 18:58:11 (people secretly support a StrongARM as their platform for tough times) 18:58:26 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:05 not to be elitest, but I always support alphas 19:00:15 Yeah, girls prefer their males to be alphas. But only so many of them are available on the market. 19:00:56 plus, they tend to speak in really weird dialects of standard languages 19:01:55 I prefer my males to be at least past the beta testing stage. 19:02:13 yeah, but alphas are at least 64bits always 19:02:34 length matters, whatever they say. 19:02:42 plus, you can run genera on them, try that with your standard male 19:03:08 ahem, genera runs on any x86_64, these days... 19:03:16 yeah yeah 19:03:17 I know 19:03:21 but back in the day! 19:03:27 *Daemmerung* made his deadline, woo woo 19:03:45 OK, I got nothing on you guys xD 19:04:23 hmm, didn't DEC have a Scheme dialect? 19:04:34 I think Thomas was written in it... 19:05:56 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:56 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:02 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:07:16 Scheme->C 19:08:02 http://alioth.debian.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=2824 19:08:32 thanks 19:09:01 I know the Thomas sources are still available (or were, I have them rotting on this machine somwhere) 19:09:57 bit rot. 19:14:27 -!- KFP-2397 [n=sedwards@waffle.aip.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:14:28 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:06 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:10 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:28 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.226.243] has joined #scheme 19:22:44 -!- Kinks_ is now known as Kinks 19:28:09 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:24 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 19:34:14 now what's the easiest way to implement a suspend/resume mechanism using continuations 19:36:16 ? 19:41:37 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:41:55 BW^-, what do you mean? 19:43:36 i want a (spawn fu) where fu takes one parameter. when fu invokes that parameter, its execution is suspended and it returns. spawn returns a resume function, when it is invoked, the execution of fu is resumed where it suspended. 19:43:38 something like that. 19:45:45 -!- langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:55 langmartin [n=user@adsl-074-167-038-128.sip.cha.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 19:53:01 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:01 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:02:02 This scheme implementation is neat 20:02:35 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-33-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 20:06:45 mbishop: Which? 20:07:18 there was a guy who wrote on usenet about continuations, like, "continuations is like i take my mug of coffee, and put it on the table. then i'll be back in two hours, and i'll put it on the table" .. something.. allegorical. 20:07:20 do you remember where? 20:07:43 ah there 20:07:44 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4e1f782be5ba2841?pli=1 20:08:09 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-40-190.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:08:11 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 20:11:21 wasn't it something about sandwiches? 20:12:44 no, different one 20:14:34 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:47 BW^-: mscheme, a scheme in Modula-3 20:15:07 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:16:03 k 20:18:44 I'm looking at the scheme documentation 20:18:47 and I see there are these libraries 20:18:54 but also in the directory there are these srfi's 20:19:04 are these also libraries? how do i import an srfi to use? 20:19:06 for instance, srfi 13 20:19:09 which has some string stuff 20:20:10 oh wait, i just found it 20:20:12 nevermind. 20:20:35 -!- rmns [n=ramunas@88.222.137.30] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:22:08 -!- mike [n=mike@dslb-088-067-025-139.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:24:22 huyslogic: what Scheme implementation are you in? 20:24:47 plt scheme 20:24:51 i just found the documentation online 20:25:05 k 20:25:05 it has the list of srfi's, so i'd just do require srfi/# 20:25:16 Fare,*: any idea on the suspend/resume mechanism? 20:25:16 darn, this is a lot of stuff to learn :( 20:25:25 huyslogic: which? 20:25:40 I just want to get to the point where i'm very comfortable with scheme 20:25:42 like i am with python 20:25:47 particularly string manipulation 20:25:53 i often do that 20:26:01 string manip, and regex 20:26:14 i have a pet project, for a web app that I want to do in scheme 20:26:50 albacker [i=5a3e6daa@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5189e6a73f03e537] has joined #scheme 20:27:25 huyslogic: I only read the titles of the SRFIs, and learn the ones that I actually want to use. 20:27:35 right. 20:27:36 me also. 20:27:40 nod, that's what i'm doing 20:27:42 huyslogic: getting going with scheme is pretty straight forward 20:27:43 hey question though 20:27:55 it seems to me that srfis are by users 20:27:59 that can be removed in the future? 20:28:07 i would say they won't 20:28:18 of course there's a little bit turnover over the decades. 20:28:20 are there like 20:28:25 a permanent collection of libraries? 20:28:29 remember that Scheme was not created by a company, like Sun. 20:28:33 in my mind i associate srfi with experimentive 20:28:40 you can consider the SRFI:s the permanent collection. 20:28:42 nod. 20:28:55 in that case, you can associate the RFC:s as experimental too. 20:29:05 The SMTP, HTTP, FTP, RFC3339 time RFC:s, for example. 20:29:14 heh yeah true 20:29:14 Hello everyone.. i want to write a func that gets a List as an argument. and returns the list in increasing order (list of numbers) and if the list contained the same element the return has it only once. I have a function interclassement given two Lists (in increasing order both) can return the interclassemebnt of the two lists in increasing order.. and also pos-even and pos-odd that give lists in even position and odd po 20:29:22 well what i mean BW^ is 20:29:31 for instance at docs.plt-sch* etc. 20:29:35 it lists the libraries 20:29:42 but then there is another section for srfi libraries 20:29:49 i see. 20:29:52 huyslogic: the SRFI:s will remain with us. 20:29:53 like the html parsing library 20:29:56 require html 20:29:59 cqn someone give me a hint on my problem ?? 20:30:00 versus require srfi/ etc 20:30:05 perhaps it's because the srfi:s are pretty independent, most often 20:30:10 does that mean these are more, hm older? permanent? accepted into the standard? 20:30:27 and, because they are in the development in because of other reasons than the libraries. 20:30:55 so I may understand it as, there are the libraries, and the srfi libraries, but good enough to consider as one 20:30:58 there are a couple of SRFI:s that have been withdrawn, but not many. 20:30:59 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 20:31:04 I see 20:31:17 look at the SRFI:s as RFC:s. 20:31:18 I was going nuts because opening and outputting text files in python was quite simple 20:31:26 I read some scheme sample and it was a lot more lines of code 20:31:32 the reason they're there is becasue many have appreciated them already, and they will proboably be with us for another decade. 20:31:38 anyone ?? 20:31:40 was it ?? 20:31:47 yeah but perhaps bw^ 20:31:49 huyslogic: how do you ouput text file in scheme? :) 20:31:54 i use with-output-file i think :) 20:31:55 it is because, they were showing how to write it from scratch 20:32:04 (with-output-file 20:32:14 '(filename: "temp") (lambda (p) (write "hi ho" p))) something like that 20:33:01 i just remember that 20:33:09 i had to define a function 20:33:09 are you guys ignoring me or is #scheme a non-scheme channel ? 20:33:11 to read file from string 20:33:17 then make a lambda in that until eofs 20:33:26 and recursively call it until eof 20:34:08 sorry albacker, i was discussing with bw^ and overlooked it 20:34:14 I'm learning so I cannot give advice :( 20:34:59 np huyslogic 20:35:03 albacker: personally i don't get what you ask for right on the spot. can you be more clear? 20:35:15 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:35:17 huyslogic: i admit that reading from a file is a little bit messy. 20:35:48 R6RS Scheme makes it a bit easier 20:35:59 BW^-: i have to write a function that gets a list and returns the same list in increasing order and numbers shouldnt be repeated ex.. (f 2 3 1 1 5 6) -> (1 2 3 5 6) 20:36:04 huyslogic: as i percieve it, scheme in its current packaging is best for a little bit bigger projects, where you have time to form a DSL for your specific use requirements, based on your exact requirements. 20:36:18 albacker: maybe SRFI95 about sorting is for you 20:36:22 and SRFI1 about filtering 20:36:22 ? 20:36:33 especially with the whole "this function reads from a file, but does not return bytes" thing. 20:36:38 albacker: so u looking for 1. make disticnt, then 2. sorting 20:36:39 BW^-: i have to write the function myself -__- 20:37:09 huyslogic: however, try something like (with-input-file '(filename: "filename") (lambda (p) (read-line p))) and somehow get read-line never consider the line to terminate. 20:37:28 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:33 You know things like quicksort and mergesort, albacker? binary sort? 20:37:42 chrisdone [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:37:47 leppie: i want smth to do what i wrote in the upper line. i also have another func interclassement who gets two lists (in increasing order both) and creates one (intercl (list 2 3 5) (list 1 2 3 4)) gives (1 2 3 4 5) 20:37:54 thanks bw^ 20:38:07 synx: i shouldnt use things like that.. all i have to use is list recursion 20:38:27 huyslogic: Just repeatedly read-bytes with 4096 or something, and bytes-append them together? 20:39:01 albacker: Uh, kind of hard to sort anything without a sorting algorithm. Bubble sort you mean? 20:39:22 i was thinking insertion sort with a dup check 20:39:42 I had to use call-with-input-file 20:40:00 (: 20:41:07 ok 20:41:19 huyslogic: in my mind, scheme is a very very powerful language 20:41:36 huyslogic: how did you study until now? how do you plean to continue learning it? what's your objectives? 20:41:46 bw, i can see something that it is able to do for my project, with the ability to create items within itself 20:41:48 once it's done 20:41:56 ah bw 20:42:05 i actually studied philosophy 20:42:11 but 20:42:16 i've been an engineer for 9 years 20:42:31 python, c, and assmblr back then 20:42:38 so trying to wrap my head around it! 20:42:40 oh i have this book 20:42:43 the scheme programming language 20:42:50 but i decided to start skimming the r5rs 20:42:56 synx: look ill explain.. i have 3 functions i can use. (interclassement (list 1 2 3) (list 2 3 4)) gives (1 2 3 4). the other one is (even-pos (list 0 1 2 3 4)) gives (0 2 4) the other one (even-pos (list 0 1 2 3 4)) gives (1 3). So i have two funcs which i can use for diving a list in two and another one for concatenation (but both of the list in this case should already be in increasing order...) did i explain myself ?? 20:43:03 it seems what works is to just do a little bit from everywhere, and it begins to become clear 20:43:22 huyslogic: sounds like a good attitude. 20:43:28 there's another book i would recommend you as well 20:43:37 I just get frustrated in the beginning of learning anything... 20:43:37 I think the latter one would be odd-pos 20:43:45 i also have the little schemer 20:43:54 it's like dialogue, kind of like philosophy style (: 20:44:02 which book? 20:44:26 huyslogic: http://www.federated.com/~jim/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html 20:44:34 that one kind of saved me in the scheme context ;) 20:44:58 synx: maybe.. i dont know the diff between even and odd.. but you get it.. 20:45:28 (: 20:45:40 what's your method of reading this stuff 20:45:49 i usually read 10 pages then i'm dead (: 20:46:02 i was thinking a scheme studying marathon 20:46:04 ha ha 20:46:09 albacker: It looks like they're trying to get you to implement quicksort... Divide the list roughly into two disordered lists using that even/odd thing, one having all the upper half, one having all the lower half. Then recurse on each half. Then use interclassement on them afterwards... 20:46:44 i tried (interclassement (oddpos L) (evenpos L)) 20:46:49 I don't know what other sorting algorithm would use that sort of unordered split, then plain combining. 20:46:52 and smth like it 20:47:00 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.109] has joined #scheme 20:47:08 That'd put the odd numbers first, and the even numbers last right? 20:47:53 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:49:08 synx: oddpos and evenpos doesnt really give odd numbers and even numbers.. it gives just the odd position. like first third fifth... 20:49:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:49:24 Oh okay. Hmm... 20:49:38 Maybe not quicksort then. 20:50:03 synx: this is smth like quicksort 20:50:18 i think i should divide the list.. 20:50:27 and after that recurse smth 20:50:54 Ooh mergesort might be what they're looking for. That doesn't require any sorting until you merge the lists. So splitting odd and even positions would work fine, no matter what was in those positions. 20:51:20 i didnt get it.. 20:51:27 Divide the list in two, then recurse on those two, finally combining the two sorted results into one sorted list. Not tail recursive... 20:52:29 hmm 20:53:40 That interclassement func seems bizarre. 20:53:54 Does it just remove duplicates or what? 20:54:18 schme: why ? it gets two (already sorted lists) and creates one.. and removes duplicates 20:54:30 Oh ok. 20:54:34 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 20:54:42 I'm just confused about the removing of duplicates. 20:54:43 :) 20:55:14 ok ill get my lappy here and try some things (i have no scheme installed here) 20:56:33 bah 20:56:36 huyslogic: my way of learning scheme has been bound with writing hundreds of kilobytes of code in it. :) 20:56:47 i did recursion freezing 20:56:56 albacker: but ya. It looks like mergesort to me. Plus removing of duplicates. 20:57:15 huyslogic: look to it that you learn how to create lists using `(things ,@things things ,things things) , '(things things) 20:57:23 huyslogic: study how beautifully it handles XML. 20:57:34 huyslogic: ensure you understand closures, macros, continuations. 20:57:40 I see 21:00:22 schme: very confusing.. 21:02:54 how do i do this resume/suspend thing? 21:02:57 albacker: Oh? 21:03:06 albacker: What is the confusing part? 21:03:28 schme: not doing it.. -__- 21:03:48 albacker: Ok I'm not quite following you. 21:04:22 ok lets leave my functions.. how could i sort it ? 21:04:36 without any before-written function ? 21:04:36 Well with mergesort, why not? 21:04:49 mergesort is an algo or a func ? 21:05:00 It's an algorithm for sorting lists. 21:05:04 BW: did you solve your problem? Is it homework? 21:05:07 Well sorting stuff anyway. 21:05:21 fare: it's not homework. i didn't solve it yet. 21:05:26 you probably want to use call/cc 21:05:30 yes. 21:05:31 albacker: The idea of it is splitting lists, and the combining 'em. Which is what you have to work with it seems. 21:05:34 where did you get that problem from? 21:05:38 i had the solution months ago, but not anymore. 21:05:41 my own mind. 21:05:51 i think it's a nice way to show how to use continuations. 21:05:51 schme: ill read smth on wiki.. thanks 21:06:15 albacker: (4 2 1 3) is split into (4 1) and (2 3) and those are split into (4) (1) and (2) (3) .. which get combinde to (1 4) (2 3) and then that combines to (1 2 3 4) 21:06:50 albacker: I'm just mildly amused by the removing of duplicates.. it seems not normal to me, but that doesn't really matter. The algorithm is much the same :) 21:06:51 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@ZQ174212.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 21:07:36 something like that: (define (spawn thunk) (call/cc (lambda (k) (thunk (lambda () (call/cc k)))))) 21:08:01 schme: yes i thought like this.. i was unsure if i had to write an if for the case where the list has at least two members.. and make it from (2 1) to (1 2) or leave it (1 2) if its incrieasing already 21:08:15 I'm sure you can google continuations, suspend, resume, etc. 21:09:07 schme: thanks though 21:09:15 schme: ill go and write smth 21:09:25 albacker: Best of luck. 21:09:28 probably put this one paper first.. with some sample lists just to get the idea.. 21:09:42 bye 21:09:45 Personally I'd go down to lists of one member ;) 21:09:48 Ta ta. 21:09:54 schme: hehe 21:09:55 thnx 21:09:56 Now let's get drunk. 21:09:56 :) 21:10:00 lol 21:10:05 fuck yeah! 21:10:06 :) 21:10:20 where u guys from 21:10:22 btw? 21:10:26 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:55 PEACE 21:11:59 -!- albacker [i=5a3e6daa@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5189e6a73f03e537] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:12:05 ok then 21:15:04 lelf` [n=lelf@217.118.90.102] has joined #scheme 21:24:26 any Scheme symbol or logotype preferably in vector graphics format anyhwere? 21:25:07 i can make one from a font 21:27:33 well i guess i could iff i had a form of graphics app on my PC, which i dont... 21:27:46 ah 21:27:48 you mean a lambda sign? 21:27:53 yeah 21:28:01 which unicode char.. :) 21:28:10 3bb? 21:28:15 k 21:28:19 i think 21:28:33 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:29:58 > #\x3bb 21:29:58 #\? 21:30:08 looks right to me 21:30:20 well not on irc :p 21:31:41  21:32:27 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #scheme 21:32:42  21:32:46 damn u! 21:32:53 :) 21:33:01 ctrl-shift-33b with urxvt. 21:33:01 my irc is broken... 21:33:14 leppie: Probably using a single-byte encoding. 21:34:06 antoszka: that may be the first good argument i've seen for switching from xterm to urxvt 21:34:18 s/33b/3bb/ 21:34:29 klutometis: Yeah, that's one of the reasons. 21:34:39 any others? 21:34:57 klutometis: I like the URL hightlight regex-matcher. 21:35:02 klutometis: Otherwise I like both. 21:35:11 interesting 21:35:58 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.109] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:39:00 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:39:44 klutometis: xterm -u8 21:40:00 -!- lelf` [n=lelf@217.118.90.102] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:49:54 -!- huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has left #scheme 21:49:54 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:55:43 -!- chrisdone [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:56 chrisdone [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #scheme 21:56:02 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye now"] 21:56:36 -!- hdon [n=donny@c-76-125-235-186.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #scheme 21:57:34 could you say that a scheme interpreter "traverses an s-expression" in its process of execution ? 21:57:52 (little bit unsure of what's appropriate english here.) 22:01:17 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.64] has quit [] 22:03:58 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 22:14:24 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit [] 22:17:25 lambda! 22:23:36 what do you think? 22:24:31 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 22:28:01 i stopped thinking hours back :) 22:33:24 :) 22:33:53 *keyofnight* yawns. 22:35:16 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:28 where's the quotes where rossum of python and ruby's authors say their languages are halfway to lisp? 22:42:28 I don't think they do. 22:42:30 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless36.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:42:39 Peter Norvig said Pythong was the new Lisp, but Guido denies it. 22:42:45 s/thong/thon 22:43:08 jcowan: see the McCarthy quote on http://www.lispcast.com/drupal/node/54 22:45:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:46:04 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:01 I liked that story 22:47:08 where norvig was talking about python 22:47:20 and then mccarthy asked him about it 22:47:20 jcowan, you're famous! I spotted your name in the Register! 22:47:58 heh yeah that link BW^- provided has the story I'm talking about 22:48:07 foof: i'm using the utf8 resource; but i was referring to the ability to create an arbitrary glyph with ctrl-shift-: can xterm do that? 22:49:50 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:50:36 I like the ctrl-shift paradigm. IIRC it originated in GTK. xterm most certainly cannot. 22:51:38 Two things bother me about urxvt: those modifier keys, which grab input and don't let go until I've typed some gibberish which I must subsequently delete, and its multi-click selection bogosity. 22:52:05 Riastradh: bogosity. (: 22:52:16 Some may say Ruby is a bad rip-off of Lisp or Smalltalk, and I admit that. But it is nicer to ordinary people.\rdblquote 22:52:18 - Matz, LL2 22:52:21 http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642 22:52:34 synx: it's not from GTK 22:52:39 synx: it's an ISO input method 22:52:45 keyofnight, it behaves differently on three different machines, and on any one of them, to select lines at a time, I need to click at least about six times in a row. 22:53:00 synx: ISO14755 22:53:02 antoszka: I first saw it implemented in GTK. 22:53:14 synx: not denying that :) 22:53:26 Riastradh: hmm, so if were to have an emacs-chord involving ctrl-shift, it would urxvt would grab input? 22:53:35 (But first I have to remind myself of the exact number, which takes dozens of consecutive clicks in an attempt to remember the number by random flailing.) 22:53:35 s/it would// 22:53:38 Yes, klutometis. 22:53:40 Riastradh: that... really sucks, to be honest. I stuck to uxterm, but I'm not sure why. 22:53:53 And I think that this is hard-coded into urxvt (certainly the multi-click selection is). 22:54:07 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:17 That may be a deal-breaker. 22:54:22 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 22:55:19 Of course, urxvt does not grab input. 22:55:22 unicode always confused me with regard to code points. 22:55:25 guys 22:55:32 It just interpretes the chord when it has focus. 22:55:34 The usual way. 22:55:41 if you're using urxvt, you can use the GUI form of emacs. 22:55:42 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-195.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 22:55:50 No way for rxvt to capture Ctrl-Shift that way. 22:56:00 antoszka, when I say `grabs input', I mean that the next key I type is sent to urxvt for special processing, not to the program running in urxvt. 22:56:18 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless36.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:56:20 synx, yes, that helps for everything I use that's not Emacs. 22:56:24 *Riastradh* coughs. 22:56:25 Riastradh: Yeah, just realized you were talking about textmode emacs. 22:56:30 I would be opposed to getty doing stuff like that, not rxvt though. 22:56:40 For urxvt it's an option. 22:56:46 Anyway. 22:56:55 I'm in macosx right now. I'm not sure what the best option for code is in emacs. 22:57:12 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 22:57:24 I mean... should I run it in a term? Or should I run "aquamacs?" 22:57:26 antoszka, how do I disable it? 22:57:33 keyofnight, I use GNU Emacs in X11. 22:57:50 Riastradh: emacs has a GUI, independant of the terminal window you call it from. 22:57:50 Is what I'm saying. 22:57:50 That would help you for emacs, but not for everything that's not emacs. 22:57:51 Riastradh: It's certainly a compile-time option. 22:57:58 are there no lisp quotes by rossum? 22:58:00 Riastradh: ah. is X11? Like... xorg? Or apple X11? 22:58:04 Riastradh: There may be a commandline or Xresources setting as well. 22:58:09 Riastradh: Would have to check. 22:58:13 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180069147.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 22:58:22 keyofnight, Apple's X11. 22:59:35 Ah. 23:00:13 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180069147.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- mopped [i=3lliott@user.custhost.se] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@ampere.divmod.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:15 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 23:00:29 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 23:00:29 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:29 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:29 mopped [i=3lliott@user.custhost.se] has joined #scheme 23:00:29 pjdelport [n=pjd@ampere.divmod.com] has joined #scheme 23:00:45 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 23:00:54 Riastradh: It's settable via a X11 resource. 23:01:10 Riastradh: As well as a compile option. 23:01:11 antoszka, which one? It's not obvious from either man page urxvt(1) or urxvt(7). 23:01:24 iso14755_52: boolean 23:01:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:49 _p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 23:02:06 Oh, very clever. Nowhere do the strings `ctrl', `control', `shift', &c., occur in that documentation. 23:02:33 Yeah :) 23:02:58 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Network is unreachable] 23:03:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:03:50 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:04:17 Riastradh: No, actually it does: 23:04:18 Start by pressing and holding both "Control" and "Shift", then enter hex-digits (between one and six). Releasing "Control" and "Shift" will 23:04:22 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:37 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:04:44 Riastradh: see the "ISO 14755 SUPPORT" section. 23:08:56 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 23:13:35 -!- bascule [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:19 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-75-68-42-94.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:39 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:56 bascule [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #scheme 23:26:23 -!- bascule is now known as Guest11505 23:33:53 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 23:34:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:39:43 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:40:13 benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 23:41:35 -!- Guest11505 is now known as bascule 23:42:07 -!- bascule is now known as Guest9734 23:44:38 -!- Guest9734 is now known as bascule 23:46:46 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:52:09 what object systems atop scheme do you like? 23:52:33 (personally i didn't, and i don't think i lack anything.) 23:52:36 though wanted to check. 23:58:49 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]