00:05:31 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:06 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:08:07 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:14:12 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:40 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:16:29 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 00:21:38 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:29 -!- sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:22:38 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 00:23:35 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:30:05 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:30:22 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 00:31:22 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 00:41:07 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:45:29 Or (define (prompt p) (display p) (read)) for brevity. 00:46:23 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:46:36 (prompt "Do you expect me to talk? ") 00:47:31 ehe, well read stops at the first whitespace character for me. 00:48:34 (define prompt (lambda (p) (display p) (read-line))) 00:50:17 (read) actually reads the next atom 00:50:30 (of Scheme syntax) 00:51:59 so it doesn't necessarily stop at whitespace; it will stop at parens and other delimiters too 00:52:06 and it won't accept non-Scheme-syntax 00:59:38 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 01:02:17 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["upgrade time"] 01:02:43 Okay. 01:04:39 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-36-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:04:39 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:26 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:06:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:14:53 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 01:16:24 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:20:28 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-34-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:20:31 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 01:32:07 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE001d60dffa5c-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:33:59 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-160-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:37:36 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:38:06 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:42:28 -!- sodio [n=sodio@netblock-63-66-64-29.myitdepartment.net] has quit [] 01:51:52 IPmonger [n=ipmonger@c-68-36-20-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:20 -!- IPmonger [n=ipmonger@c-68-36-20-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:59:51 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-222.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:03:56 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:04:28 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 02:09:09 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 02:13:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:33:09 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:34:41 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:47:12 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 02:48:59 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 02:55:17 -!- underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has quit [] 03:02:48 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180066141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:13:27 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 03:17:42 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180064240.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:17:47 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 03:32:21 Lemonator [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 03:32:49 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:32:57 -!- Lemonator is now known as kniu 03:40:22 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 03:44:41 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 03:59:27 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:59:57 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:08:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:52 underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:14:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:15:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:21:19 foof` [n=user@clair01.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:25:08 eli: Was the Wadler paper you were referring to "Why Calculating is Better than Scheming?" 04:27:09 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:27:44 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176209178.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:49 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176218022.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:30:56 foof`` [n=user@naist-wavenet126-037.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:31:05 Didn't see a very good argument in that. Maybe it's just me. 04:31:57 2.1 is a good point 04:32:10 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 04:32:17 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:19 I was about to say that from the first few pages he comes off as a moron who doesn't know what he's talking about. 04:33:09 scheme works because of simplicity. You can be sure nothing's broken, since it's not fundamentally complex. Adding syntax to make it look "calculatey" messes with that. 04:33:43 i may be alone in thinking that the syntax actually is a problem 04:34:24 2.1 is a good point though... (eval '(2 3 4)) should become '(2 3 4) IMO. I dunno. Doesn't make an awful big difference to me. 04:34:31 for example, it would be nice if you could explain that ( . ) applies foo to args... but you can't because foo might be a special form 04:35:18 Hm, that's true. 04:35:27 I try to minimize syntax modification myself... most syntaxes do have sort of something like that too. 04:36:01 that said, i do think types are best left out initially, so there's really nothing suitable to use in place of scheme 04:36:31 i also think lazy evaluation is a rather cruel thing to inflict on new programmers 04:39:09 Yeah... 04:39:39 But I won't give up my if clause that doesn't evaluate all three arguments. 04:41:01 what if expression does such a thing 04:41:13 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 04:41:27 Sometimes I think... it'd be better to leave out evaluation entirely as a guarantee. 04:41:39 synx: you can't in a language with side effects 04:41:40 Instead of having define-syntax and define being separate, just have something to mark an argument as passed literally instead of being evaluated. 04:41:52 jonrafkind: Extremely old ones that don't have the benefit of lazy evaluation. 04:42:03 You can't? 04:42:04 synx: i've never seen such a thing 04:42:20 why do you need lazy evaluation for if expressions 04:42:58 (define (if-foo a b c) (if a b c)) <-- an if expression that does such a thing. 04:43:06 jonrafkind: if you don't have it, both branches always get evaluated. the way to do it with strict evaluation is with a special form OR with an if function that takes thunks as arguments. 04:43:23 yes, I know that. if expression is a special form handled by the interpreter itself 04:43:26 not with lazyness 04:43:37 right, but in haskell, if is a normal function 04:43:44 oh I thought we were talking about scheme 04:43:59 it's not entirely clear. 04:44:30 Because otherwise b and c will be evaluated... yeah, as arguments. 04:44:34 Same thing. 04:44:37 special form = how to get the compiler to be lazy 04:44:48 (define (if-foo a b c) (if a (eval b) (eval c))) 04:44:53 That would work, but b and c would need to be explicitly quoted. 04:45:13 you can use closures too (thunks) 04:45:31 (define (if2 a b c) (if a (b) (c))) 04:45:55 smalltalk does just that 04:46:14 ifTrue: ifFalse: 04:46:26 where ifTrue:ifFalse: is a normal message 04:46:28 Heh, passing thunks as b and c neat. 04:46:45 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 04:47:27 if eval is your solution, you've identified the wrong problem 04:47:30 .. usually 04:47:47 s/your/the right 04:48:32 yeah... 04:48:54 is it easier to get laziness in an eager language or eagerness in a lazy language (or neither)? 04:49:02 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:49:09 ((lambda () ...)) is a lot more efficient and optimizable than (eval "...") 04:49:10 -!- foof` [n=user@clair01.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:49:40 there's also good old define-syntax... but I guess you'll just wind up with the if you already have 04:50:12 xz: It's more verbose to get eagerness in a lazy language I'd say...because statistically we use eagerness more. 04:50:42 (define-syntax if (syntax-rules () ((_ if a b c) (or (and a b) c)))) 04:50:49 I just wish sometimes we couldt make a function that takes a lazy argument, without needing to explicitly quote, or thunk it. 04:51:09 synx: stop wishing that :) 04:51:22 synx define lazy-lambda... 04:51:35 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A056E.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:36 theres a lazy language in plt scheme 04:51:37 or redefine lambda to accept keyworded lazy arguments 04:52:04 johnnowak: No! And I wanna pony too! 04:52:15 oops there was an extra if in my pattern 04:53:05 Lazy programming is _harder_ to understand than eager. 04:53:08 i'm not sure what a good convention is to show reductions for scheme 04:53:20 self-quoting forms won't help when you have a list of symbols 04:53:40 there's.. always color... 04:54:13 foof``: aye. 04:54:55 Lazy is harder to understand than eager, yes. 04:55:55 all you schemers reckon lazy is harder to understand 04:56:08 reasonable =) 04:56:41 i think anyone sensible would agree laziness makes reasoning about space usage more difficult 04:56:45 johnnowak - you mean apart from syntax definitions? 04:56:55 xz: ? 04:57:12 johnnowak - "good convention to show reductions for scheme" 04:57:27 benny [n=benny@i577A11A6.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 04:57:35 but I guess you'd want your reductions to be outside the language 04:57:56 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@netbsd/developer/sjamaan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:07 i mean this: 04:58:07 (car '(car (x y z))) 04:58:07 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike-old.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 04:58:07 (car (x y z)) ; done 04:58:09 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-160-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 04:58:10 A language with no eager constructs at all would be rather odd... it could never do anything. :3 04:58:26 I wonder if HTML counts as a 100% lazy language. 04:58:36 Just a document describer. 04:59:13 or better yet... 04:59:28 jhonnowak but (car '(car (x y z))) => car ... 05:00:18 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:28 oi 05:00:46 (cdr '(list car (list 1 2 3))) 05:00:46 (car (list 1 2 3)) ; done 05:01:04 with scheme's syntax, you can't always look at a single step and know if there's anything left to do 05:01:33 it's genuinely a problem i think 05:02:02 with a different syntax, it's clear 05:02:45 Isn't the question "Is there anything left to do?" also known as "The Halting Problem?" 05:02:47 (cdr ['list 'car ['list 'x 'y 'z]]) 05:02:47 ['car ['list 'x 'y 'z]] 05:02:55 synx: not at all 05:03:35 i mean you don't know if you should reduce (car (list 1 2 3)) just by looking at it as you don't know if it's the result of something or not 05:04:22 this is purely a syntactic oddity of scheme, nothing to do with the halting problem 05:04:35 You should reduce it if you're evaluating it, otherwise it's just data... 05:04:45 What matters is not the data, but what you're doing with it. 05:06:18 well that's the point 05:06:22 the data looks the same as the code 05:06:33 hence you can't tell by looking at it 05:07:10 code is data. 05:07:31 yes. but code as data, macros, etc, have zero use in an introductory course on functional programming. 05:07:36 it just confuses the issue 05:07:39 evaluation isn't always reduction. that's one way of explaining semantics but not the only. 05:07:42 I think you mean that '(car (list 1 2 3)) -> (car (list 1 2 3)) whereas (car (list 1 2 3)) -> 1 05:07:47 But what the latter produces is the code for the former. 05:07:48 a good rewriting language would be, for example, cat 05:07:51 or joy 05:07:57 eh.. 05:08:00 cat. not joy. 05:08:24 the lack of a way for abstracting functions causes difficulties 05:09:16 you might look at http://www.latrobe.edu.au/philosophy/phimvt/joy/j07rrs.html and the issue as to if quotation should be an intensional or existential constructor 05:09:28 I think code as data is very important to teach early on. The artifical restrictions to stop viruses and junk really put us in an odd way of thinking programatically. 05:09:39 You can't modify the CODE segment. 05:09:52 Security concerns of course. But it's an artificial distinction. 05:10:12 i don't think miranda separates code from data due to security concerns. 05:10:42 ? 05:10:51 xz: ? 05:10:55 what is data? 05:11:31 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:05 "separating code from data" seems to be a phrase in the lisp community for a property of languages that don't have macros or eval 05:12:19 not sure you can reduce it much further than that 05:12:57 yet you have languages like Joy with no macros at all, yet code is certainly data in a sense far beyond what scheme offers 05:13:18 so what is data? 05:13:20 and io as well 05:13:35 data far as I can tell is stuff that hasn't been turned into information yet. Hasn't been evaluated, or decoded, or what. 05:14:07 i think it should be "code as a first class entity" 05:14:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:14:52 The concatenative languages have [ and ] The former turns on lazy evaluation, and the latter turns it off. Seems rather elegant to me. 05:15:11 what is code? strings? other structures in memory? printed text? 05:15:14 synx: it's not lazy evaluation, it's just quoting. 05:15:25 or rather, "syntax trees as a first class entity at some point in time during program evaluation" 05:15:32 synx it's the same trick you did for if 05:15:45 synx the eval the use to remove the [ ] is sometimes implicit 05:16:16 xz: in joy? 05:16:33 evaluating at a later time... sounds lazy to me. 05:16:58 synx: look up what lazy evaluation is 05:17:11 Maybe I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "lazy" here. 05:17:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation -- not too terrible 05:17:29 :p 05:17:38 eh.. it is terrible 05:17:53 I've read that. 05:18:09 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-222.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:18:15 essentially, lazy evaluation is a non-strict form of evaluation where values are not computed until the moment they are needed 05:18:54 it's a question of when something is "needed" though 05:18:57 you can use thunks in scheme to *emulate* lazy evaluation to some degree, but scheme is a strict language, and hence you have to explicitly force the evaluation at some later point 05:19:13 just to be provocative 05:19:34 you could say a function needs all its arguments computed before the body is evaluated 05:19:44 fair point 05:19:52 but that wouldn't be a common interpretation of "need" and wouldn't look "lazy" 05:20:22 in joy, by the way, the notion of "function application" is mostly non-existent. i think that's what makes it most interesting. 05:20:38 it's completely non-existent 05:20:52 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:21:03 haha but a schemer might see it there despite that 05:21:07 it's the same for cat though 05:21:10 To be fair, a function only needs an argument computed when it first uses that argument. 05:21:15 even though 'i' is called 'apply' for some reason 05:21:38 synx what do you mean by "use"? 05:21:45 synx: not true in scheme. you'd be changing the semantics. 05:21:58 assuming by function, you mean procedure 05:22:20 of course in scheme it's so easy to write macros or even just write your own interpreter that changing the semantics isn't a big deal.. 05:22:21 xz: Haven't a clue. (force argument)? 05:22:58 johnnowak it's called apply, maybe, but it's spelled i =P 05:23:24 forgive my missing quotes 05:23:42 synx I think you mean when a variable bound by a lambda expression is referenced 05:23:57 synx that would be a reasonable definition of "use" 05:24:00 Yeah, okay. 05:24:07 xz: oh. i meant that it's *spelled* "apply" in cat. :) 05:24:13 In scheme, yes. 05:24:40 johnnowak oh really? well nobody has the terminology perfect... 05:25:00 xz: well chris thinks cat is an applicative language 05:25:04 you might like some of brian cantwell smith's work, if you haven't seen it before 05:25:39 johnnowak what so you apply words? 05:26:09 xz: apply them to the stack, yes. 05:26:27 xz: that's his interpretation at least (i think). i think it's missing the point. 05:26:41 seems as if more and more people know of concatenative languages nowadays... 05:26:53 i better hurry up and release this thing and ride the wave 05:27:02 what thing? 05:27:33 Hey I been on the concatenative beat since 2000, with MUF and all. 05:27:55 xz: some language i'm working on that i won't spam #scheme with a description of yet again 05:28:35 what? 05:28:37 well 05:28:42 how am I going to find out about it then? 05:28:49 logs ugh 05:28:55 I need to go to sleep 05:29:11 heh, i'll be releasing things soon 05:29:25 why is it going to be any good? 05:30:43 i feel slightly less about about spamming #concatenative. ask there next time you're awake. :) 05:30:50 ugh, i'm just spewing emoticons today 05:30:52 pathetic 05:31:00 i need sleep too i think. 05:31:22 I don't see any spam in the logs 05:31:37 come on don't you have a website or something? 05:31:54 i have 5th.org but nothing on it yet 05:32:21 hey wow your irc name is like your name 05:32:34 ... 05:37:41 who would have thought 05:41:43 its all the rage 05:43:31 red_wolf [n=user@218.108.32.54] has joined #scheme 06:00:13 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 06:12:05 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-29-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 06:13:14 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:13:25 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 06:14:24 underspecified_ [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:14:24 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:14:31 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 06:16:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:17:15 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 06:18:54 travisbemann [n=f00bar@CPE-69-76-71-141.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 06:20:52 underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 06:21:14 -!- underspecified_ [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:29:02 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-36-46.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:41 OK, Wadler actually typed ((+ 3 4) = (+ 5 2)) into a Lisp interpreter. 06:39:08 That confirms my suspicions from the beginning - at the time he wrote the paper, he really had no idea what he was talking about. 06:40:10 heh 06:40:34 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-050-177.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:43:53 he's right that quote can be a little confusing. the syntax can also be a minor issue, but it's less of an issue than miranda syntax for sure 06:44:03 the rest is silly 06:44:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 06:44:28 i wonder what it looked like before abelson and sussman's "detailed and perceptive comments" 06:45:24 QUOTE can be confusing, but Miranda doesn't even *have* that feature, or any of the benefits it provides (macros, eval, reasoning about programs as data). 06:46:22 Which is the ultimate lesson taught in SICP - a meta-circular evaluator. 06:47:35 I have a random question 06:47:48 I have a random answer 06:47:53 I'm starting a new project which is using PLT Scheme and R6RS 06:48:16 should I use PLT modules, knowing that this code will never be run outside PLT, or should I use the new R6RS modules? 06:48:22 minion: advice for travisbemann 06:48:23 travisbemann: #11940: You said `It doesn't work'. The next violation will be punished by death. 06:48:59 travisbemann: r6rs is a great way to the orphanage 06:49:01 travisbemann: Just use PLT, pretend R6RS doesn't exist. 06:49:29 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 06:49:49 and on that note, what is the matter with R6RS per se (just wondering, because I haven't kept up with such matters)? 06:50:25 travisbemann: it failed occham's test 06:50:56 More than half the editors slit their own throats with occam's razor. 06:51:01 well put 06:51:40 so basically it is not painfully simple enough 06:51:59 No, that's misleading. 06:52:15 Occam's razor isn't just about "simplicity." 06:52:16 i'd contend that the wasteful multiplication of entities is painful; cf. .NET 06:52:34 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #scheme 06:52:35 *travisbemann* 's main problem with scheme was exactly just that - he was planning on using Steel Bank Common Lisp for this project, but he decided against it when he found that it had poor Windows support (and for that matter, there was no real free/open source Common Lisp implementation with good Windows support) 06:52:50 was? 06:52:57 was 06:53:00 solved? 06:53:07 ocaml? 06:53:18 the project has to be portable across Windows and Unices, and hopefully should also work on Mac OS X with some prodding 06:53:54 and is not really performance-critical 06:54:05 no, not ocaml 06:54:18 as this is meant to load outside code at runtime 06:55:11 (as it is meant to directly compete against an existing commercial product with just that capability, but which happens to use a completely godawful scripting language) 06:55:27 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 06:55:50 is it graphical in nature? 06:55:55 yes 06:56:02 ooh 06:56:21 well, hell: write it in SISC and run it wherever the JVM runs 06:56:48 PLT is probably portable enough for me at this point 06:57:07 i deployed a military app with sisc, gui and all, across windows, linux, os x 06:57:09 and as schemes go, it seems to be the best supported out there at the present, and the one which future support can be most counted-on 06:57:13 how well does sisc integrate with swing or awt? (or java2d for that matter) 06:57:32 the only other thing, though, that kills that - it will be using backend code in C 06:58:04 use the erlang approach, a communication pipe/socket between the two processes 06:58:10 travisbemann: jni 06:58:14 PLT has a portable C FFI, whereas writing FFI code for JVMs is, well, painful from what I hear 06:58:45 ecraven: no complaints about swing, really; although i recall dipping into java to subclass certain widgets 06:58:54 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-160-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:59:39 ecraven: I've thought about that; the main thing, though, is that the C code would be mostly doing what any interface code written in, say, Scheme would be doing anyways 07:00:02 as it would be meant to talk to a remote server backend backend, which would itself be a layer upon a relational database of all things 07:00:10 travisbemann: eli is the local plt guru; he had some good suggestions once upon a time re: portable graphics and plt (but i don't think you can beat sisc for ubiquity) 07:00:31 the purpose of writing it in C is essentially so that any higher-performance stuff can be shoved away in it, and so it can be linked and bound from other things than just Scheme 07:01:19 then ecraven's approach looks attractive 07:01:42 of course, erlang gives you all this amazing binary parsing ability that Scheme sadly lacks :( 07:02:23 ecraven: Until someone implements it for Scheme. 07:02:23 the problem with that is that this is meant to be user scriptable at runtime, and erlang is even more obscure than scheme (and the UI code really is not meant to be very multithreaded at all in practice) 07:02:37 foof``: of course 07:03:18 i didn't mean to imply that erlang would be a better solution than Scheme, i don't believe it is 07:03:44 Well, it might be :) 07:04:04 I'm just saying, never say "Scheme doesn't have X." 07:04:12 the binary stuff and the process stuff are the only things that i prefer to Scheme ;) 07:04:14 the other thing is that the local backend is meant to be really damn responsive - and at least from my experience doing other work, in most Linux-type environments, simply passing information from one thread to another in the same process has major performance issues with it 07:04:15 Just say "Noone has implemented X for Scheme yet." 07:04:27 foof``: that's true for almost any language 07:04:46 Only for languages with macros. 07:05:01 Lots of things can't be implemented (at least efficiently) w/o macros. 07:05:07 (I have found that simply a round-trip set of information passing between two threads can have really horrible latency in Real Life, as there is on easy way to explicitly pass control from one thread to another, but rather one has to wait for another thread to be scheduled by the OS) 07:06:13 two processes would be okay in a second-generation microkernel environment where a message from one process to another actually results in control flow instantaneously passing from the first to the second process, rather than having there be a scheduling wait 07:06:20 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #scheme 07:06:24 or in erlang 07:11:20 *travisbemann* hates scheduling in "real" operating systems 07:17:32 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-209-18.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 07:22:35 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:24:09 -!- kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:26:34 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fb1c007d91c30931] has joined #scheme 07:27:25 ecraven: does termite have any interesting features? 07:27:42 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has quit [] 07:28:47 klutometis: probably ;) i didn't get it to work on my machine here, but i only tried for a few minutes 07:29:06 but i've been wanting to look into gambit anyway, i need a Scheme that runs on arm processors 07:36:54 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A05BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 07:37:39 *travisbemann* is now away 07:37:45 -!- travisbemann is now known as travisbemann|awa 07:37:51 -!- travisbemann|awa is now known as travis|away 07:46:45 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0544FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:55:02 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:11:45 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:12 AtnNn_ [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 08:16:13 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:20:25 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 08:28:06 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-160-133.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 08:30:05 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 08:30:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:33:13 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:49 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:34:13 underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 08:36:56 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0544FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:38:29 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fb1c007d91c30931] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 08:39:10 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 08:45:51 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:15:51 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 09:23:40 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has joined #scheme 09:29:26 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 09:40:27 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:48 -!- schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A05BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:58 schmalbe [n=bernhard@p549A05BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:50:27 -!- red_wolf [n=user@218.108.32.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:27 -!- underspecified [n=eric@clair18.naist.jp] has quit [] 09:56:46 quiet... 09:56:49 -!- foof`` is now known as foof 10:00:30 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-45985962e7ccb603] has joined #scheme 10:04:31 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:38 Boo. 10:04:47 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 10:05:05 (moo) 10:10:44 i know i've been up for awhile when the occidentals are waking up; and perseus is overhead 10:12:54 foof: yes. 10:13:24 Occidentals have been waking up for hours. 10:13:40 orientes, even; i'm occidens 10:16:08 Riastradh: speaking intra-americanly; maybe I should say: Atlanteans vs. Pacifics, since "oriental" seems to have a different connotation than "east coast". 10:16:13 The earth hasn't rotated quite that far, though. It's still o'dark-hundred for North America. 10:16:31 OK. 10:19:01 athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:21:46 Riastradh: by the way, would you be opposed in principle to a Chicken eval-bot? I don't speak PLT (bless rudybot); and it would be nice to have for one-off demonstrations. 10:22:15 -!- foof [n=user@naist-wavenet126-037.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:22:17 BOT WAR! 10:22:37 schme: that contravenes the third law of convodynamics, i think ;) 10:23:02 :) 10:23:06 scheme is the third law of thermodynamics 10:23:12 hi kluto et al 10:23:19 hi back, elf 10:23:42 Maybe #schemerepl ought to be reinstated. 10:23:52 hrm? 10:23:54 hi riastradh 10:24:00 whats #schemerepl? 10:24:07 Hmm; didn't know #schemerepl existed. 10:24:10 i want #scheme-is-not-r6 10:25:35 I'm thinking mainly of situations where I wanted to give a quick hint to SICP-vagabonds, but didn't know the PLT library syntax for a given SRFI. 10:25:41 Maybe it's time to learn PLT. 10:26:45 *Riastradh* vanishes. 10:27:45 I didn't know sarabot lives in #schemerepl; she doesn't seem to be very responsive, though. 10:28:41 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 10:30:17 morning 10:30:25 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:36:14 cracki [n=cracki@44-170.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #scheme 10:37:27 ventonegro: Godgigoden 10:38:50 klutometis: what's that? 10:39:21 ventonegro: apparently it's a contraction of "God give you good even" in Romeo and Juliet 10:39:26 means something like "good evening" 10:39:45 it's actually english :) 10:40:42 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 10:41:16 weird 10:44:47 indeed :-) 10:51:04 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 11:04:54 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 11:25:32 sarahbot: INDIA TO THE MOON! 11:25:32 So.....you like Atlanta? 11:28:28 sarahbot: If it wasn't for Sarah Palin, I'd move to fuckin' Sweden. 11:28:29 Ummm...Thats an interesting hypothetical... 11:30:01 Sweden <3 11:31:12 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #scheme 11:33:58 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 11:36:01 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:51:34 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:54:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:55:00 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 11:56:49 -!- yakov2 [n=yakov@h-60-147.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [] 11:57:15 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 12:05:22 igli [n=igli@fu/coder/igli] has joined #scheme 12:06:15 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 12:07:19 in: (define-macro (bigloo-version) `',*bigloo-version*) ;; what does `' mean? 12:08:05 it comes straight after the function it apparently calls and i'd like to call the same function. can i use `' or do i need to specify full name? 12:08:21 [sorry total newb] 12:08:22 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 12:11:22 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:11:30 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 12:12:40 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1279686855.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 12:13:22 ooh it gives you a shell sweet :D 12:15:05 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:15:37 hmm you have to call system from within bigloo script to get a bigloo var? 12:15:53 ? 12:15:56 oic runtime check 12:16:37 hi mejja :) trying to update roadsend to work with bigloo-3.1b which doesn't use bigloogc on gentoo, but sys lib gc 12:18:02 igli: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.5.2566 12:19:12 thanks mejja :) 12:20:20 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 12:36:45 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-170.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:39:22 sili_ [n=sili@121.96.161.215] has joined #scheme 12:39:25 hmm that's nice :) 12:39:47 does mzscheme do named arguments? 12:40:35 igli pasted "target.scm snippet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68992 12:41:00 sili_: if you are talking about keyword arguments, the answer is "yes" 12:41:53 sili_: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/lambda.html#(part._lambda-keywords) 12:42:35 i'm not seeing how it calls get-bigloo-var (should i paste whole file?) 12:43:48 chandler: chandler neato. I guess they're kinda the same 12:44:48 only other use of get-bigloo-var in the file is: (set! bigloo-lib-dir (get-bigloo-var "*default-lib-dir*")) 12:45:00 (which makes sense to me) 12:45:12 [just about;] 12:49:37 igli pasted "target.scm" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68994 12:53:27 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 12:55:06 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:57:46 igli annotated #68992 with "target.scm snippet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68992#1 12:58:37 er that's the relevant lines (583-608 of whole file) 12:58:52 sorry for spam 13:03:36 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:04:47 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:23:36 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:29:08 meh i've been told not to worry about it and just cp/edit 13:35:27 -!- AtnNn_ [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foobar"] 13:35:44 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.119] has joined #scheme 13:40:37 hmm but if it's bigloogc i need to append the version 13:42:14 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:48:47 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 13:49:31 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 13:53:49 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:57:34 mmc2 [n=gvtk86@wwwgate32.motorola.com] has joined #scheme 13:59:18 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.142] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:47 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-26-223.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 14:07:15 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-29-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:07:23 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 14:09:00 BW^-4376 [i=Miranda@79.138.211.123.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 14:09:18 -!- BW^-4376 is now known as BW^- 14:09:49 we need to make GZIP library for gambit. any suggestion on what GZIP C library to use? 14:10:52 apparently chicken uses z3, a derivate of gzip, though its homepage says it's yet not optimized for speed. 14:14:18 underspecified [n=eric@softbank220043052011.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 14:15:26 *foof* thought there was a gzip library written _in_ gambit 14:31:08 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 14:38:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:40:05 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.119] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:38 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:46:59 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:51:01 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 14:52:00 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read 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has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:11 everyone seems to be afraid of something this week 18:46:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:57:05 -!- mmc2 [n=gvtk86@wwwgate32.motorola.com] has left #scheme 19:04:45 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #scheme 19:06:35 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:38 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-15-106.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:14:26 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-44-107.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:14:28 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 19:23:35 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 19:30:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:22 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 19:32:50 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05510B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:35:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:08 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:52:01 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:40 p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:d0be:0:0:0:0:13] has joined #scheme 19:59:59 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 20:05:20 hellues [n=hellues@78.183.204.79] has joined #scheme 20:05:21 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:10:16 haha wow, they shipped NBA 2k9 without cd keys... 20:27:59 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066141.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:09 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:31:55 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:22 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 20:32:46 keyofnight: they call that "macrophobia"; and it can really only be cured through the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms and syntax-case 20:33:32 what's syntax-case? 20:38:55 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:39:49 Jarvellis: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/eggs/syntax-case.html 20:40:09 thanks 20:45:42 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 20:52:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.248.218] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:56:29 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:57 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:58:24 npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has joined #scheme 21:03:47 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 21:04:20 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:05:58 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.113] has joined #scheme 21:07:37 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.113] has quit [Client Quit] 21:10:17 klutometis: I've never done shrooms. I can't even imagine drugs and code. How do people drunken code anyway? ahaha 21:12:09 -!- kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:12:41 kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:13:20 keyofnight: http://tom.preston-werner.com/2008/10/18/how-i-turned-down-300k.html 21:13:26 great things can happen over beer 21:18:18 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 21:24:44 hahah... great moments in geek history. 21:25:45 gsadm;asdnjlg;as 21:25:56 There was a goddamn spider embedded in my bagel! 21:26:34 lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.79] has joined #scheme 21:27:55 that...was...disgusting. 21:28:01 keyofnight: What species? 21:28:45 antoszka: I'm not sure... It was one of those run-of-the-mill long-legged grey house spiders. 21:28:55 :) 21:31:58 I like the ones with the fangs that go " ,, " ,, '' 21:32:10 jlongster: heh. while I definitely agree with the sentiment presented there (having done something like that myself recently), I think $300k is a pretty good "chance at financial independence" 21:33:25 chandler: but they wrote github, and that's awesome. 21:33:43 yes, it is, but if $300k isn't financial independence, you're doing it wring 21:33:44 "wrong" 21:33:59 which is why the US is in the financial mess it is now, of course 21:34:16 Quite true. I'd like a little bit of that kind of financial independence myself. 21:34:31 Not that I would go buy a house or anything... (: 21:35:59 /buying/ houses isn't the problem. mortgaging them is :-) 21:36:16 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:36:37 dereine [n=dereine@stud240073.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has joined #scheme 21:36:42 chandler: I'm blaming our financial crisis on the american ego. Not a single person thinks it's okay to live with your family, ride the bus, or enrich your mind for the sake of it. So now we're all in debt up to our eyeballs, have mortgages, car payments, and drive SUVs. 21:36:47 how can i define sth like a variable in a lambda? 21:37:27 aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:45 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:38:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:47:20 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 21:52:39 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:52:45 dereine: was that an introductory Scheme question? 21:53:07 if so, it's (lambda () (let ((your-variable "your value!")) code )) 21:53:27 also, (lambda () (define your-variable "your value!") code) works, but the previous one is usually better. 21:53:48 -!- kniu [n=kniu@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:55:08 (lambda (arg) 21:55:08 (define foo "foo") ) 21:56:26 mh it returns a german error 21:56:39 (lambda (arg) (define foo "foo") foo) 21:56:48 define is not an expression form, and you need at least one expression form in a lambda 21:57:13 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 21:57:28 ah ok thx 21:59:12 Does anyone know of a trivial proof that a grammar with atoms, parentheses, and Interlisp-style brackets (that is, a ] terminates any number of )s and a ) terminates any number of ]s) is or is not CF? 22:01:51 -!- lelf [n=lelf@217.118.90.79] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 22:04:53 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:10:57 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05510B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:41 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-241.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:16:35 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-241.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20:54 sili [n=sili@121.96.161.215] has joined #scheme 22:28:59 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 22:29:50 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:08 jcowan: sounds PDA-solvable to me. Do I read you correctly to mean "(((foo])" and "[[[foo)" are both accepted? 22:30:56 Yes. 22:31:16 Actually we don't need the atoms, they just make it look a little less artificial. 22:31:47 My intuition is that you need an infinite number of rewrite rules of the form [(] is [()], [((] is [(())], etc. 22:34:05 Hmm, wait. I can actually reduce the problem a bit by saying that ] and ) may be omitted but [ and ( may not. 22:34:09 -!- dereine [n=dereine@stud240073.studentenheim.uni-tuebingen.de] has left #scheme 22:38:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 22:43:20 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:46 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-133.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:01:41 -!- npe [n=npe@32.97.110.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:06 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 23:05:38 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 23:13:04 kniu [n=kniu@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:15:23 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 23:19:49 jcowan: if you construct it as a PDA, it should be trivial 23:20:12 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:20:25 someone stole my PDA and I will ruin this house with my anger! 23:20:37 consuming a ] takes a ( off the stack, and transitions to a state which can pop ( off the stack without consuming a token 23:21:31 I don't have a PDA, but I do have a PPA. Such devices are amazingly versatile (and can recognize handwriting as well as a human), and also extremely cheap! 23:21:50 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:23:23 I could draw it if I had a whiteboard you could see. By the Chomsky hierarchy, that makes it CF or regular. Permitting normal brackets makes it not regular. QED, in a handwavy sort of fashion 23:42:05 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:42:16 It's that "without consuming a token" that makes it look not-CF to me; CFness being defined in terms of rewrite rules. 23:48:26 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:54:30 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"]