00:00:10 you see the difference between + and ++ ? 00:00:27 muhah 00:00:31 "iterative" means doing the same thing over and over. Recursion is one way to acheive that; loops are another. 00:00:31 you are right 00:00:37 i am very sleepy 00:01:08 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-250-250.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:49 offby1, i understand but both of that looks recursive 00:02:02 *Debolaz* decides to rethink his object model. 00:02:04 as a consequences function call itself in both 00:02:17 Scheme++ # Because it's so fun. 00:03:06 hoo 00:03:08 ? 00:04:08 hellues pasted "recursive or iterative" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68007 00:04:38 it is true function in here kazzmir_ 00:05:00 it can be both, you know. 00:05:05 yea, now its recursive 00:05:17 both looks recursive 00:05:24 in fact most recursive functions are iterative too, at least by my definition. 00:05:28 offby1, stop being so technical. you know hes asking about C style for loops vs recursion 00:05:35 :( 00:05:43 :D 00:05:45 didn't notice he was talking about C 00:05:49 technical answers don't help people that barely understand in the first place 00:06:15 kazzmir_: what's ironic is that you're criticizing me for something that _I_ often critizice _others_ for, here in this very channel 00:06:15 for(int x=0 x<10;x++) 00:06:19 x=x+1 00:06:26 *offby1* does penance 00:06:26 iterative 00:06:31 yes, that is iterative 00:06:46 iterative is looping but not cheweing up stack space. recursive usually means growing the stack 00:06:53 so a tail-recursive function is basically iterative 00:06:58 if x=0 return 0 else funtion(x-1) 00:07:02 recursive 00:07:04 yes 00:07:08 so 00:07:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:22 in my paste function calls itself than both recursive 00:07:27 right 00:07:57 but this two function gives same result so i think there is a tricky i dont understand 00:08:17 bbl 00:08:47 offby1, what are you saying about that 00:09:40 so with lambda or let is there a way to recurse with the variable? like i want to define tmp to be + tmp 1 each time the function recurses 00:10:15 hellues: I'm saying: I'm sorry for being too technical. kazzmir_ is right. 00:10:16 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-47-81.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:48 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:10:52 offby1, 00:10:55 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-34-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:11:16 rudybot: eval (let loop ((tmp 0)) (display tmp) (loop (add1 tmp)))) 00:11:16 offby1: error: eval:1:52: read: unexpected `)' 00:11:22 rudybot: eval (let loop ((tmp 0)) (display tmp) (loop (add1 tmp))) 00:11:24 offby1: error: with-limit: out of time 00:11:33 nuts 00:12:13 (let loop ((tmp 0)) (printf "~a~%" tmp) (sleep 1/2) (loop (add1 tmp))) 00:12:27 rudybot: eval (let loop ((tmp 0)) (printf "~a~%" tmp) (sleep 1/2) (loop (add1 tmp))) 00:12:29 offby1: error: with-limit: out of time 00:12:32 nuts nuts nus 00:12:55 NaNO2x: the answer is "yes", but as you can see I'm having trouble demonstrating. 00:13:20 hmm 00:13:30 yeah... 00:13:59 well like for a length function i want to do it all in one function and use tail recursion instead of doing a helper function 00:20:40 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:29 eval (let loop ((tmp 0)) (display tmp) (if (> tmp 10) tmp (loop (add1 tmp)))) 00:21:38 rudybot: eval (let loop ((tmp 0)) (display tmp) (if (> tmp 10) tmp (loop (add1 tmp)))) 00:21:40 sladegen: ; Value: 11 00:21:40 sladegen: ; stdout: "01234567891011" 00:22:14 rudybot: damn, antispammer! 00:22:21 sladegen, that seems so...roundabout 00:22:38 isn't there a better way with lambda? 00:22:57 let is just macro for lambda 00:23:22 NaNO2x: I don't think you can do it with just _one_ lambda 00:23:23 erm s/macro/syntax sugar/ 00:23:48 well i just have to keep everything inside one function 00:23:50 well, you could define a _named_ function, and have it call itself. But to me that's roundabout too. 00:24:26 i'm still not fully grasping the lambda 00:24:30 -!- hellues [n=hellues@hopper.cs.bilgi.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:24:52 rudybot: eval (define (frotz tmp) (printf "~a~%" tmp) (when (< tmp 10) (frotz (add1 tmp)))) 00:24:53 offby1: error: with-limit: out of memory 00:25:01 what?! 00:25:04 rudybot: eval (define (frotz tmp) (printf "~a~%" tmp) (when (< tmp 10) (frotz (add1 tmp)))) 00:25:09 rudybot: eval (frotz 0) 00:25:09 offby1: ; stdout: "0\n1\n2\n3\n4\n5\n6\n7\n8\n9\n10\n" 00:25:13 there ya go 00:25:25 *offby1* slaps rudybot upside the haid 00:26:35 hellues [n=hellues@hopper.cs.bilgi.edu.tr] has joined #scheme 00:26:38 me again 00:26:41 :p 00:27:09 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:27:33 (inc (++ (dec a) b)))) 00:27:33 i think this lines calling itself of itself of itself 00:27:48 (+++ (dec a) (inc b)))) 00:28:20 in that line dec and inc function calls the value than ++ function calling itself 00:28:25 hellues: you need to make your examples simpler; I am too lazy to follow yours 00:28:34 so first one iterative second one recursive do you agree 00:29:23 offby1, thats it what is your idead about ? :D 00:30:27 minunea_konsole [n=yaib@86.120.70.89] has joined #scheme 00:30:54 someone there 00:30:59 except offby1 :D 00:34:04 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68011 do you agree that 00:35:09 -!- minunea_konsole [n=yaib@86.120.70.89] has left #scheme 00:38:44 1=rec, 2=iter. 00:40:20 what is that can you tell me 00:40:26 i try to learn 00:42:45 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:10 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless18.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 00:48:38 -!- hellues [n=hellues@hopper.cs.bilgi.edu.tr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:09:02 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 01:10:11 Guest44882 [n=Leonidas@chronon.pointtec.de] has joined #scheme 01:32:02 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:18 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 01:37:47 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53:24 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 01:57:33 -!- synthase is now known as synthasee 02:04:53 I'm confused as to exactly how (require) works 02:05:17 Does anyone know how to use it? 02:05:24 sure 02:05:29 in PLT, anyway 02:07:03 Oh it's only a plt thing. 02:07:21 other schemes might have "require" too, but I don't know how they work. 02:07:28 I'm not sure what the distinction between (require a) (require 'a) and (require "a") is. 02:07:39 let's see. 02:07:55 in quotes, it's a file name, and it starts the serach in the same directory as the containing file. 02:08:01 You'd think the first was a variable a containing the name...of...something, but it seems different. 02:08:05 nope 02:08:11 it's an unevaluated symbol. 02:08:14 Oh okay do continue. 02:08:31 it looks for the files in the standard mzscheme places ... dunno exactly what they are 02:08:47 the (require 'a) is only for when you've defined a module in the same file, and then later want to require it 02:08:55 so most of the time you won't be using it. 02:09:13 One will not encounter the form with the quotation in MzScheme. 02:09:24 That is found only in archaic Lisp systems. 02:09:26 you can; it's just unusual 02:09:43 Riastradh: It's the only thing that the plt guide on modules ever uses is (require 'a) 02:09:47 A module defined in the same file is required without any quotation -- just (REQUIRE FOO). 02:09:55 synx: what's the URL for that guide? 02:10:15 Okay, so (require "a") only works for a file in the current directory named "a". (require a) works for any a module, but only in the system locations. 02:10:23 offby1: It's uh... file:// I'm not sure where it'd be online. 02:10:37 it's OK 02:10:52 I was thinking the forms with & without quotation would be a good idea for my own syntax. 02:10:53 Riastradh: I'm 60% sure you're wrong. If it were anyone but you I'd say 95% :) 02:11:06 Huh. The quote form must be new -- I definitely don't remember it. 02:11:12 offby1: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/guide/module-require.html 02:11:13 I suspect it is new 02:11:22 I can't imagine what value it adds. 02:11:26 (require '(foo bar)) for a library in a search path, and (require foo) for a first-class module 02:11:30 synx: thanks 02:11:50 Riastradh: It could allow you to load the files yourself, then require the modules independantly of that... 02:11:56 synx: the nice thing about this channel is that eli is often here, and there's more or less nothing about PLT that he doesn't know 02:12:01 You don't want to do that, synx. 02:12:28 I've always wondered why modules had to be dependant on being in certain files of certain names. 02:13:05 the quote form is just to give the definitions window a name that can be imported by the interactions window in drscheme 02:13:06 convenience? 02:13:41 Since you have to name the module in the first place, it seems redundant. Maybe helpful for finding the module, but why make it necessary if you already found it? 02:13:59 beats me. Ask eli 02:14:45 I been asking that question since they did it in java, so it's probably a lost cause. 02:14:50 synx: For the _implementation_ to find it. 02:15:22 But if you've already _found_ it, then you don't need to use the implementation's searching algorithm. 02:15:34 The alternative being to explicitly tell the implementation where the module is, via something like Scheme48's packages.scm. 02:16:30 Right, or give it the code of the module somehow, maybe even over a network socket. 02:16:35 synx: No, the point is that the Scheme implementation hasn't found it. When you say (require "foo") it has to know where to look for the source code for the module "foo". 02:17:17 foof: But when you say (require 'foo) it only looks through already loaded modules for that particular one, independant of the filesystem. 02:17:46 In PLT maybe, I'm speaking in general. 02:17:57 So (smartloadthatisnotexposed "foo") (require 'foo) could be the same as (require "foo") 02:18:44 I'm just saying, tying the module to the name of the file it's contained in seems nice for convenience, but odd to mandate. 02:19:02 ? 02:19:24 Like supposing module a depended on module b 02:19:30 So you would prefer to write it out manually as (smartloadthatisnotexposed "foo") (require 'asdjhfgl) ? 02:19:53 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:19:57 And then have to remember both the name of the module and the name of the source file, instead of just one name? 02:20:35 -!- Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B54629.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:20:57 I dunno, not really. I'm mostly content just having the file named after the module. It just seems like those could be separable tasks. 02:21:10 And they are in Scheme48. 02:21:21 What if you wanted to load your modules by downloading them across a network socket? No need for specially named temporary files... 02:21:27 Dark-Star|away [i=Darkstar@p57B54629.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:21:53 It's more flexible, and on a certain aesthetic level cleaner. It doesn't really gain you much, though, and makes package management more complex. 02:22:32 I suppose. 02:23:32 Anyway, so (require "foo") will get foo.scm/ss/whatev in the current directory and require its module. (require foo) will do that for the system directories, but not the current directory. 02:24:24 Does that mean you have to change your requires from "foo" to foo, when you install some modules to the system? 02:25:08 only for files outside the module 02:25:26 if you have a bunch of files in a collection they can all refer to each other as "foo", but if you want to use the collection you say (require foo) 02:25:28 wait...outside the...package, you mean? 02:25:33 outside the package yea 02:25:38 so many terms for the same things 02:25:43 collection, there's a good word for it. 02:25:50 collection is what plt uses 02:25:55 okay I'll do that then 02:25:58 -!- bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable006.84-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 02:26:03 so if you see "collection path" or anything similar thats what (require foo) will goto 02:26:46 Yeah, setting that has some really odd errors though. 02:27:09 "no #%app syntax transformer is bound" in plt 02:27:15 well you should set it so the original plt collections are still available, its just so you can add your own collections 02:27:36 are you setting it programmatically? 02:27:41 or on the command line 02:27:47 No, via environment variable right now. 02:27:58 paste your code, ill try it 02:28:03 The docs say it adds it to the current list, not replaces it, but I dunno... 02:28:33 I'll make a page sure 02:30:09 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:20 so i'm trying to make a tail recursive length function that only uses one function 02:35:51 jonrafkind: https://synx.us.to/code/continuationEvent/problem.html 02:36:28 what version of mzscheme are you using? 02:36:59 Um... 4.0.1 02:37:05 [3m] 02:37:58 you should put #lang scheme at the top of testD.ss and dont use -f to mzscheme 02:38:14 -!- rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:27 er, okay... I could also go (module testD scheme ...) in testD.ss... 02:39:38 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:39:46 the docs are confusing.. it says PLTCOLLECTS is combined with "the default list". whats the default list? 02:39:58 its not clear if its the same thing as the "default collection path list" 02:40:24 Obvously not heh. 02:40:43 NaNO2x: if the list is empty, the length is 0; otherwise, it's one plus the length of the list's cdr. 02:41:22 that isn't tail recursion 02:41:37 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:41:41 Sounds like tail recursion to me. 02:41:41 you need to use an accumulator 02:41:57 where's the pastebin again? 02:42:01 i'll show you what i've been trying 02:42:01 NaNO2x: it can be if you code it right 02:42:08 paste.lisp.org 02:42:23 OH right it adds one, never mind. 02:42:29 not tail recursive. 02:42:42 yeah 02:42:47 one sec 02:43:08 synx, well I'm looking at the plt source and it looks like PLTCOLLECTS is just combined with the default paths 02:43:56 jonrafkind: Interesting. I don't have the source here, sorry. 02:44:09 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 02:44:10 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:12 NaNO2x pasted "tail recurse length" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68015 02:44:16 Kinks_ [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 02:44:23 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 02:44:30 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:44:55 those first two look reasonable 02:44:57 do they work? 02:45:17 I think by "accumulator" NaNO2x, jonrafkind meant the same thing that you call a "helper" 02:45:33 yes first two work fine 02:45:34 a helper is usually another functino. an accumulator is an extra argument 02:45:40 i need to have tail recursion without a helper function 02:45:41 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [No route to host] 02:45:54 right but there can't be an extra top argument 02:46:05 which is why i'm thinking i need to do something with let or lambda 02:46:05 ah, tail recursion without a helper 02:46:12 hrm, off the top of my head I'd say thats impossible.. but you say it is? 02:46:22 oh wait, can you just define a let loop? 02:46:32 which is really just defining a helper function anyway 02:46:42 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 02:46:45 The let loop itself would be... yeah a lambda in disguise. 02:46:48 or you could have an internal define, so it looks like you only have one function 02:46:49 Write two versions of a tail-recursive function that computes the length of a list. The functions should return the same results as the built-in function length. For example, 02:46:49 (lengtht '(a b c)) => 3 02:46:49 (lengtht '((a b) (c d e)) => 2 02:46:49 1. Write a first version, lengtht that is tail recursive and uses external (non-nested) auxilary functions as needed 02:46:50 2. Write a second version, lengtht2 that uses no additional top-level functions. The function should still be tail-recursive, and can use any local bindings that you want. 02:46:55 i'd hope it's not impossible :P 02:46:58 *synx* transforms into a Buick 02:47:10 AHA 02:47:13 just put the auxilary function iside the first function 02:47:25 can't use an internal define 02:47:25 kind of a lame excersize.. 02:47:27 i thought of that one too 02:47:31 offby1 annotated #68015 with "my way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68015#1 02:47:32 it says you can use local bindings 02:47:33 No additional "TOP LEVEL" functions. Just define two functions inside a single top level function. 02:47:42 Or yeah, one function inside another. 02:47:58 fine instead of an internal define do (let ((my-helper (lambda ...)) ...) 02:48:09 I haven't been particularly impressed by NaNO2x's class myself. At least it's not C# 02:48:27 jonrafkind, as you can see that's what i was attempting 02:48:40 oh ok, i didnt look at your paste 02:48:52 sooo i'm gonna guess that loop is not something they want me using 02:48:58 It doesn't work, you say? 02:49:06 considering the whole keep things recursive thing 02:49:17 No I think they mean for you to use the loop, and not use lengthhelp 02:49:34 well since we haven't learned anything about loop yet 02:49:44 but some about lambda and let 02:49:47 synx, aha, do this: $ PLTCOLLECTS=`pwd`: mzscheme 02:50:04 the trick is here: Whenever the path list contains an empty path, the list default-path-list is spliced into the returned list of paths. 02:50:13 so that : introduces an empty path, and the default list is spliced in 02:50:18 i'm just going with the idea that the hw is supposed to be possible with the stuff we've just recently learned 02:50:21 jonrafkind: oho, my bad. Thanks! 02:50:39 no worries, thats probably the most confusing semantics and documentation i've ever seen 02:50:43 oh wait 02:50:48 loop is just the name of the let function 02:50:49 ? 02:50:58 NaNO2x: There's no (loop) keyword or anything. That's just the common name you give to a lambda in your letrec expression, that you're going to loop on. 02:51:02 (let loop ...) means you can call loop like a function 02:51:05 gotcha 02:51:07 :P 02:51:08 thanks 02:51:16 Or that yeah 02:51:28 (let anything-you-want ...) 02:51:40 but most people call it loop since thats what its used for 02:51:57 some folks calls it a sling blade 02:52:25 hahha 02:52:59 awesome guys 02:53:00 thanks much 02:53:09 i now have the power of loops back!!! 02:53:09 rawr 02:53:10 You don't want to be laughin' at offby1. He'd just as soon kill you as go fishin'. 02:53:38 or eat a potato wedge 02:53:41 ;) 02:53:47 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-175-181.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:53:56 A raw potato wedge, at that. 02:53:56 offby1, is a error! 02:54:09 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:11 NaNO2x: In your let expression, you have ((lambda (lst tmp) ...)) which calls a two argument lambda with zero arguments. 02:54:13 You are what you is 02:54:54 anyway I wouldn't eat a potato wedge 02:54:59 Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B54C1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:55:03 unless it had ketchup, or garlic salt ... 02:55:04 mmm 02:55:07 so i'm not exactly sure what the actual loop means i mean i thought with let you just had things like (let ((x 0) (y 1))) 02:55:20 mmm garlic salt 02:55:32 NaNO2x: it's syntactic sugar atop a letrec. 02:55:50 Catsup? Yuck! Don't come near my potato wedges with your filthy refuse-sauces, offby1! 02:56:06 Riastradh: I'm sure he meant ketchup. 02:56:32 Or, as long as we're talking tubers 02:56:33 I yam what I yam 02:57:07 Daemmerung, you have succeded in confizzling me 02:57:10 rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 02:57:16 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:57:28 NaNO2x: um forry. 02:57:48 however now i'm hungry for catsup and potato wedges 02:58:17 (let) is syntactic sugar atop a lambda 02:58:23 aardvarq [i=tgAardva@student3113.student.nau.edu] has joined #scheme 02:58:34 NaNO2x, do you know about macros in scheme? 02:59:15 (l3t l00p ((i j)) ...) -> (l3tr3c ((l00p (lambda (i) ...))) (l00p j)) 02:59:27 *offby1* slaps synx upside the haid 02:59:37 jonrafkind, no 02:59:58 then ignore anyone who uses the words "syntactic sugar" in this channel 03:00:14 -!- metasynt1x [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:00:31 s/sugar/high-fructose corn syntax/ 03:01:15 jonrafkind: point taken. 03:01:29 Organic evaporated cane juice? Hmmmm... 03:01:34 *offby1* belatedly notices that NaNO2x is a fellow Seattle-its 03:01:36 ite 03:01:49 offby1, your Seattleitis is contagious! 03:01:55 this excuses any erratic behavior he may have shown: rainy season just started and it's been known to drive men mad 03:02:39 rudybot: uptime 03:02:39 offby1: I've been up for five minutes, thirty-two seconds; this tcp/ip connection has been up for five minutes, thirty-one seconds 03:02:46 rudybot: eval (banner) 03:02:48 -!- rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:52 uh oh 03:02:59 -!- jroes [n=jroes@serapio.org] has left #scheme 03:03:05 Did rudybot get left in the rain? 03:03:25 built the new PLT release; quite troublesome 03:03:28 (define (rain sanity) (if (not sanity) #t (rain (test sanity)))) 03:03:40 Holy turducken, Riastradh performs syntax xformations at Whole Foods. WHo knew? 03:03:57 crap, "out of memory"?! 03:04:10 That's a big banner. 03:04:12 No, I just find ingredient lists containing `organic evaporated cane juice' to be immensely silly. 03:04:15 offby1: I sync'd at 3am and have had no probs w/ the build. 03:04:31 Daemmerung: yeah, but you're not trying to run a bot 03:04:31 Riastradh: we are the chorus, and we agree. 03:04:32 rudybot [n=luser@li11-10.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 03:04:36 rudybot: eval (banner) 03:04:37 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 03:04:41 hmph 03:05:24 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) (x x 0)) (lambda (y z) (cons 0 (y y (+ z 1)))) 03:05:25 Riastradh: error: eval:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 03:05:28 offby1: I'm trying to ruin a bot. Somewhat different. 03:05:34 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x) (x x 0)) (lambda (y z) (cons 0 (y y (+ z 1))))) 03:05:35 Riastradh: error: with-limit: out of memory 03:05:36 Daemmerung: ah, so it was you 03:05:46 Riastradh: see, that's _correct_ behavior. 03:05:55 But spewing that error _to the console_, and then dying, is not :-| 03:06:21 -!- Dark-Star|away [i=Darkstar@p57B54629.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:06:30 rudybot: eval (with-errors-spewed-to-offby1-console (lambda () ((lambda (x) (x x 0)) (lambda (y z) (cons 0 (y y (+ z 1))))))) 03:06:30 Riastradh: error: reference to undefined identifier: with-errors-spewed-to-offby1-console 03:06:38 close 03:07:20 rudybot: eval (exit) 03:07:21 synx: error: exit: user code cannot exit 03:07:29 hehe 03:07:39 "offby1" close, or "offbyateleasttwo" close? 03:08:02 fun way to stress test the restriction stuff 03:08:29 D'oh, I've only got a few hours to send in for my absentee ballot... 03:09:00 Please do so, foof. 03:09:38 foof: off thy ass get, send it in do 03:10:15 Yoda meets Ira Gershwin? 03:10:32 No kick from champagne I do get. 03:12:03 gershwin, porter, whatEVah 03:14:39 I moved recently... have been reluctant to bare my identity at the state to get registered though, since finding out about national ID databases. 03:15:10 (query (and (credit-card? 'invalid) (political-type 'dissident))) 03:16:12 I am of the opinion that, unless you blow something up, nobody in the government cares about your politics. 03:16:41 Well I'm hardly a danger of that. 03:17:04 I don't trust them not to be interested though. 03:18:59 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 03:19:13 offby1: or fail to pay your taxes. Otherwise ditto. 03:19:25 Hah, taxes. 03:19:35 See? 03:19:55 taxation is theft 03:20:04 property is theft! 03:20:09 money is theft! 03:20:14 robbery is theft! 03:20:19 *offby1* throws cold water on himself 03:20:27 When they loaded my file there were a lot of modules already loaded and I think there's some symbol conflicts in there. 03:20:30 Common Larceny is theft!! 03:20:35 yeah yeah 03:21:12 *Daemmerung* had to reach for the #scheme relevance there... next time, give him more slack, ok? 03:22:02 *offby1* grants Daemmerung one-quarter of a Lispy point for keeping his pronouns straight 03:22:27 *Daemmerung* saves that point for future redemption for cash or valuable prizes 03:22:53 *Daemmerung* wants that Red Ryder B-B gun 03:23:12 *Daemmerung* could put an eye out with that thing 03:23:41 *NaNO2x* noticed Daemmerung didn't say his eye out 03:24:17 *Daemmerung* notices that NaNO2x has two tempting eyes remaining 03:24:51 *NaNO2x* puts on safety goggles 03:25:03 *mbishop_* calls the /me police 03:25:23 YOu' 03:25:33 You'll never take /me alive, flatfoot! 03:26:23 *offby1* uses his newly-acquired Erlang skills to have a whole cluster of EC2 instances throw their dentures at mbishop_ 03:30:13 foot 03:31:50 Molly lets the children lend a hand 03:43:02 wow, SISC still uses CVS 03:47:42 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 03:50:25 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:51:22 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:13 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:52:20 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["strawberry!!"] 03:53:12 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 03:55:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:55:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:04 offby1: what was troublesome in the build? 04:10:09 jonrafkind, synx: that deal with the default path spliced in where there's an empty part is useful -- it allows you to use either "`pwd`:" or ":`pwd`" to have the current directory appear before or after the default paths. 04:10:25 sure its useful, but confusing as hell 04:10:35 the docs dont make it much less confusing 04:10:37 I just didn't understand how it works is all. 04:10:42 Not *that* confusing, if you know your unix. 04:11:01 In any case, a saner way to do this is to use the -S command line argument. 04:11:03 if I can't understand it after a bottle of vodka its too confusing 04:11:37 And yet a saner thing to do is not to try and modify it -- it makes it easier to write code that others can use too. 04:11:50 ah so it should be taken out! 04:12:05 What should be taken out of what? 04:12:13 PLTCOLLECTS should be taken out 04:12:22 to prevent people from making code that doesn't work well with others 04:12:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 04:12:58 I just want to test a module before installing it... 04:13:07 In that case, you'd want to take it out together with -S, and together with `current-library-collection-paths'. 04:13:14 usually I make a symlink in the collects directory 04:13:47 It's still better than a symlink. 04:13:59 yes probably, but when I don't care about the solution I just do wahtever works 04:14:05 synx: what do you mean by "installing it". 04:14:27 Putting it into a system collections directory. 04:14:48 jonrafkind: that's exactly why PLTCOLLECTS is better, a symlink can disappear when you upgrade. 04:14:55 eli, I thought you were against arcane unix magic. don't you think attaching : is arcane unix magic? 04:15:15 symlinks are arcane unix magic :x 04:16:04 arcane unix magic == anything I don't currently know about unix 04:16:36 symlinks are not arcane unix magic :P 04:16:56 the /dev/tty hack is arcane unix magic 04:16:58 jonrafkind: No, I'm not against them, especially not if they're useful. In this case, it's certainly useful to be able to append, prepend, or override the paths. 04:17:25 it should be PLTCOLLECTS does what unix noobs want and PLTCOLLECTS_ARCANE_UNIX_MAGIC does what you want 04:17:49 No. 04:18:05 *That* would be arcane. 04:18:20 Just because it's a colon doesn't mean it's UNIX specific. Not unless you're doing shell expansion... 04:18:30 i disagree but I don't use the feature much so I don't really care 04:19:08 jonrafkind: newbies should not try to configure the system in ways they don't understand, or be willing to learn how to do it properly. 04:19:36 synx: Also, on Windows it's ";" instead of ":". (Again, following the OS conventions.) 04:19:53 eli: Really? That does sound kind of arcane... 04:19:53 what other system uses : as a way to splice in some other path 04:20:18 Why not make it a tilde or an asterisk, and have it be platform independant? 04:22:43 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.80.242] has joined #scheme 04:23:16 Eh, I'm not really too concerned about that. Just wondering how to test the use of something before putting it into the system path. 04:23:18 jonrafkind: tex, for example. A bunch of other things, but I don't remember specifics. 04:23:29 Can one of y'all summarize the issue? I'm as Ballmer-brainwashed as any Windows zombie out there, but I'm not haing any problem with PLT modules. 04:23:35 la la la 04:23:38 hello eli 04:23:44 hi 04:23:52 oh, and la la la. 04:23:55 fine. the "usual" unix environment variables like PATH and LD_LIBRARY_PATH do not use such things so I use those as my default cases 04:23:59 Daemmerung: I'm just not sure how to do something, and ran into some language oddities. 04:24:39 synx: it's not tilde or something like that because it *is* system conventions. 04:24:52 s/system/operating system/ 04:25:00 the documentation should spell out how to give an empty path 04:25:05 jonrafkind: actually, things like PATH is how it begins. 04:25:08 oh maybe it did.. 04:25:21 vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 04:25:29 It is convention for PATH, but PLTCOLLECTS isn't part of the system. 04:25:40 jonrafkind: For example, say that you want to extend PATH, like slap /foo/bin in front of it. What do you do? 04:25:54 ah no, the documenation does not spell out how to make an empty path in unix nor windows 04:26:00 synx: no, it's a convention for specifying a list of paths to search in. 04:26:00 PATH=/foo/bin:$PATH 04:26:26 cmon, thats in my bashrc. PATH=~/bin:$PATH 04:26:39 jonrafkind: OK, and for PATH that is reasonable, because you can always expect to already have PATH defined. But what about, say, MANPATH -- how do you do that? 04:27:06 MANPATH=/foo:$MANPATH 04:27:16 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176200121.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:27:24 man pages being UNIX specific of course. 04:27:40 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176214025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:27:51 jonrafkind: Right, but what if MANPATH is not defined? 04:28:00 then its blank. you get MANPATH=/foo: 04:28:20 Yeah bash doesn't have clean join operators for that case. 04:28:27 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 04:28:29 Exactly, hence the convention of using an empty entry to specify "splice defaults here". 04:28:32 I think the programs just ignore blank paths... 04:29:01 If the PLTCOLLECTS environment variable is defined, it is combined with the default list using path-list-string->path-list. If it is not defined, the default collection path list (as constructed by the first three bullets above) is used directly. 04:29:10 at what point does that text say "use an empty path" 04:29:21 it doesnt, you have to look up how path-list-string->path-list works to figure it out 04:29:29 and even then it doesn't tell you how to do it. i guessed 04:30:35 jonrafkind: You're welcome to enhance the docs, or to ask me too, but dismissing it as useless old unixisms is bad. 04:30:52 s/too/to/. 04:31:41 yes, an improved docs would help I think. arcane unix'sms are ok as long as they are documented clearly 04:31:56 synx: no, given that example, the right thing for programs to do is to use the defaults when there's a blank. Exactly for that reason -- meaning that shells like bash do not need to have ways for combining such things. 04:32:05 but I never said it was an old useless unixism.. just arcane 04:32:10 its hard to remember all of unix yknow :p 04:32:28 Some parts make sense. 04:32:39 This one does. 04:32:43 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:16 *eli* considers another Max Payne 2 session. 04:33:22 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:34:00 Do they use the defaults at that colon, really? Thought it was just a separator... well, I'm no expert. 04:35:52 synx: it just makes sense. Your application uses FOOPATHS to configure it, and you want people to be able to extend it like FOOPATHS="$FOOPATHS:" but they cannot have FOOPATH already set to your app's default, so that will get you an empty element. 04:37:07 yes that does make sense. and its mildly elegant 04:37:36 Oh so you're saying that in bash we type '(PLTCOLLECTS="$PLTCOLLECTS:/some/where") and that turns to '(PLTCOLLECTS=":/some/where") which mzscheme then reverses back to using the default path where it's an empty element of the list. 04:38:35 synx: Yes, except for the parens that are not needed in bash. 04:39:57 I put the parens in to quote it within the context of the IRC message... 04:40:13 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:41:22 synx: BTW, this also demonstrates why it's fine to use an OS character -- the place where you set it is using the OS tools to do that setting. For example, in Linux you'd do that in a script, and in Windows you'd use the system settings dialog. 04:42:16 synx: if you want an OS-independent way, then you can use the `current-library-collection-paths' parameter. 04:43:18 Sure, okay. 04:44:12 So the test could set the current-library-collection-paths parameter to allow requiring as if it had been installed, without yet installing the module. 04:47:08 synx: yes. 04:47:30 jonrafkind: how about this: Note that under @|AllUnix|, paths are separated by @litchar{:}, and under Windows by @litchar{;}. Also, @scheme[path-list-string->path-list] splices the default paths at an empty path, for example, you can set @envvar{PLTCOLLECTS} to @tt{":`pwd`"}, @tt{"`pwd`:"}, or @tt{"`pwd`"} to specify search the current directory after, before, or instead of the default paths respectively. 04:47:56 ok looks good 04:48:24 and change the text for find-library-collection-paths 04:48:42 "it is combined" was the source of the confusion 04:48:46 in the last bullet 04:48:50 I added "for example, with many Unix shells you can set ..." 04:49:01 Since it's a shells example. 04:49:14 for find-library-... ? 04:49:35 No for the above long comment. 04:49:38 ok 04:49:53 I'm adding that text into the last bullet. 04:49:57 sorry to be a bother >_< 04:50:06 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:50:15 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 04:51:08 synx: well, it *is* something that confuses people from time to time. I know that the reality is that people don't know about that convention, no matter how much sense it makes. 04:51:37 jonrafkind: I plan for that comment to appear after the third bullet, without changing the contents -- so it should clarify the "combined". 04:51:53 ok 04:52:26 DOne. 04:52:46 Now I shall go and kill lots of people, virtually speaking. 04:53:41 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:53:43 boom, headshot 04:55:38 grettke [n=grant@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:56:21 Heh. I could perhaps forestall a massive virtual blood letting by quoting from the site that tonigh's procrastafarianism has summoned: "Why we still program in QB" [QuickBasic] 04:57:25 why would the mention of QuickBasic forestall bloodletting? 04:58:08 One must sometimes be reminded of the real enemy. 04:58:31 but then you get RL bloodletting instead of virtual 04:59:59 RL bloodletting is messy... then you have to call the RL garbage collection. 05:00:33 The flesh of fallen angels. 05:01:43 synx: fortunately, it's implemented by the OS 05:01:53 it is rather slow though 05:02:02 fortunately it doesn't need to be fast as the resource pool is large 05:03:18 https://synx.us.to/art2/!hash/d2DDnjHA6VK6fsQje67GYUV2NxQ/katrina.gif 05:04:31 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:04:32 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.230] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:57 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.90] has joined #scheme 05:05:00 Hello everyone. 05:06:58 hi 05:07:14 mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #scheme 05:07:20 grettke, were you wondering about match libraries? 05:07:36 arcfide: yes, I just replied to your post 05:07:55 OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 05:08:07 Ah, I see. 05:08:19 Okay, so you are after S-expression pattern matching? 05:08:41 I know that for a lot of "Pattern Matching" I think of Regular Expressions, which is why I was asking. 05:09:29 yes, s-expr, not regex 05:10:13 Ah, okay, I am afraid I do not have much to offer there besides SYNTAX-CASE> 05:10:14 :-) 05:13:39 I think that Derick Eddington may have ported Wright's match library. 05:13:59 I'm trying to get a sense of hoe people are doing thing with R6RS (or if they are...). 05:14:21 For example, I'm not really clear on what SRFI's have been ported, or not, and why not; since the whole point is that they can be reused. 05:15:25 grettke, there are still not enough full R6RS implementations out there for people to start doing real work on them, imo, and thus, there is not a real need for the SRFIs to be worked on, yet. 05:15:25 Currently, I believe most of the work is going into making the system work. 05:16:16 Oh ok. 05:16:22 mzscheme has a patterns library, IIRC 05:16:38 I know that Ikarus and Chez are both still just trying to make sure that they are accurately compliant with the standard. 05:16:43 chrisdone: That is what I am using right now in PLT v4. 05:17:23 I don't know the state of PLT in the compliant range, though they do have an R6RS mode. I was under the impression that they break compatibility with R6RS in their normal modes. 05:19:54 arcfide: PLTs other languages are really their own languages, so breaking compatibility would imply they intended compatibility. Their R6RS, is, of course, R6RS, though :). 05:20:28 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 05:21:15 grettke, according to the documentation, PLT Scheme does not conform to R6RS even in their R6RS mode. 05:22:00 acrfide: I know, I was just referring to your point that "they break compatibility with R6RS in their normal modes". 05:22:38 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/r6rs/conformance.html 05:23:34 I am reading that. I am also reading their interoperability pages. 05:24:03 I figured you were, I just wanted you to know that we were on the same page, literally :). 05:24:10 It seems that pairs in their normal modes are not mutable. 05:24:18 It also appears that some care must be taken when using ports between R6RS and other modes. 05:24:18 yup 05:24:25 yes 05:25:20 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.90] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:25:30 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-201-22.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 05:25:36 Stinkin' router. 05:25:51 Anyways, grettke, sorry about that, but I do find PLT's way of doing it a little strange. 05:25:53 *arcfide* shrugs. 05:25:58 I guess they've always done it that way. 05:26:29 At least they are allowing you to use other libraries in R6RS and vice versa, but still . . . . 05:26:50 what's strange about it? 05:27:07 I don't use PLT Scheme, so I guess I shouldn't be complaining. 05:28:08 It's just something you get with a language implementation, which is not strange at all. 05:28:19 Hello eli. I knew you would be dropping in sooner or later. 05:28:32 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-8-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:40 I have always thought the multiple languages in PLT Scheme to be a little strange. 05:28:48 For example, if you use the lazy or the typed scheme languages, you'd need to deal with interfacing with the "normal" plt world. 05:29:35 Absolutely. No, I can understand why one might do things in this manner, but I sometimes wonder why PLT chose to make R6RS its own language, rather than converting everything to R6RS, and then building on top of that. 05:29:36 But there's really nothing strange in that, perhaps, maybe, the realization that foreign interfaces exist in more places than " vs C". 05:29:43 mediogre` [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #scheme 05:30:33 Then again, I haven't used PLT Scheme in so long that I don't really think I am qualified to understand it. 05:30:39 The "multiple languages" are mostly an artifact of PLT addressing two communities: 1) persons carefully navigating the treacherous waters of intro programming. 2) persons wanting to get shit done. 05:30:40 That's just a sensible design decision, given an existing huge code base, combined with the fact that the usual plt languages advace at their own pace (much faster than RnRS, that is.) 05:31:01 -!- mediogre` [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:31:20 Daemmerung, I understand that as well. 05:31:38 It might lead to confusion some day though, if someone re-implements scheme/base in R6RS, to make what... R6RS/scheme/base? 05:31:39 To clarify -- these two factors contribute to having many languages, not to having one language per crowd. 05:32:16 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-175-181.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 05:32:28 Since the languages are very similar, it really comes down to definition mostly, so it seems reasonable to have one interpreter for all of them. 05:32:36 It's Scheme taken much further to the principle of allowing you to define your language easily. 05:32:37 spider solitaire is a big reason why i boot up my vista VM 05:32:57 synx: not really. Think of R6 as a magnet. It is a force that hopefully will converge Scheme. 05:33:04 You could have two totally unrelated XML documents, but the same sort of parser could parse them. 05:33:12 synx, sometimes the languages are very different. 05:33:29 synx: at least in plt, there *is* one "interpreter". 05:33:39 duncanm: run `plt-games'. 05:33:52 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:07 Daemmerung, I perfer to think of R6RS as a black hole, into which many people may be sucked, including myself. 05:34:18 (Unless te Vista spider game has some features the XP version doesn't) 05:34:30 arcfide: Yet they can all be converted to scheme... 05:35:08 eli: Is (PLT) Scheme is a superset of R6RS? 05:35:23 arcfide: R6 as the Sarlacc.... 05:35:25 Yes, of course. 05:35:29 eli: I think that these multiple languages are useful, but sometimes it is confusing because I would think of R6RS as bhe base language, and then the additional libraries as libraries. It seems strange to have a base that is defined as a separate language, and then have R6RS out there somewhere else. 05:35:38 hmm there isn't any built in exponential function is there? 05:36:23 NaN02x: expt ? 05:36:33 There is a disconnect in my head when I expect R6RS Schemes to have R6RS as their foundation, and then to have additoinal language extensions or modifications enabled as extensions or variations. 05:36:38 arcfide: re your earlier point, r6rs is supposed to make defining new languages easily something that more people can enjoy. r5rs is more limited in that sense. 05:37:36 eli: my point is mostly that it seems like PLT Scheme, which does claim to be an R6RS scheme, has R6RS tacked on as a side note, rather than as the building block upon which the rest of its features are built or added. 05:37:45 As for which one is the "primitive" one, that depends on the implementation -- existing ones are more likely to build up on what they have rather than start from scratch. 05:38:09 eli: This is true, and I can understand the engineering decision. 05:38:26 arcfide: if I claim to speak Thai, why would you assume that my birth language was Thai? 05:38:46 By the same token you could say that `scheme/base' is tacked as a side-note to the mzscheme kernel, or that the mzscheme kernel is tacked as a side-note to C. 05:39:17 Daemmerung: I submit that PLT Scheme sometimes seems to claim to be Thai, not just to speak Thai. A very educated and well traveled Thai, but still Thai. 05:39:40 eli: I don't know enough of the architecture to tell about that. 05:39:57 eli: the vista version is very pretty 05:40:03 arcfide: I have never observed that. 05:40:12 eli: i just tried the version in plt-games, it's pretty good, but pretty hard to solve 05:40:59 (luum phasaa Thai thuk kham lao) 05:41:49 arcfide: you don't need to know about the PLT architecture -- you just need to consider implementing r6rs -- you *will* have lots of code lying around, and you *will* need the ability to develop new languages (since that's part of r6rs), so the way to reach r6rs is only natural. 05:42:18 duncanm: by "hard to solve", I take it that you mean "lacks the hint thing"... 05:43:19 eli: the natural way that I would expect a Scheme to become R6RS would be to rewrite the core language to be R6RS, regardless of the underlying kernel. Then, to implement extensions and modifications of the language behavior as enabled or disabled extensions in the code. 05:44:13 arcfide: that is hardly a natural way, per my original tortured metaphor. 05:44:55 Daemmerung, yes, but I don't accept the metaphor as going so far as that. 05:44:59 arcfide: PLT was already a superset of R6RS, though, why rewrite it? 05:45:22 arcfide: R6 is a language definition, nothing more. 05:45:25 grettke, no need to rewrite it, but if R6RS was already present as a subset, why the need to make a whole separate language? 05:45:41 It is a grammar and a set of semantics. It is not a lifestyle. 05:45:54 Daemmerung, yes, true. 05:46:47 Daemmerung, the point of that language though, is to allow interoperability in a relatively seamless manner between implementations. I hardly call PLT's means of doing this seamless. 05:46:49 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:46:56 If R6RS is a subset, I would think the language definition in plt would be to define what the boundaries of that subset were, like a language consisting of "You can't do ___" statements. 05:47:03 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["nap"] 05:47:07 Like the 10 commandments <3 05:47:42 foof [n=user@clair01.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 05:47:51 synx, if R6RS was already available as a subset of PLT, then, to me, that means that it should have been able to accept R6RS programs without having to have a separate language for it. 05:48:35 That is, I should be able to take any R6RS library and just drop it into PLT Scheme's interpreter, and it should work, and I should be able to use it, without having to do anything else, such as specify the language I am using, or whatever. 05:48:36 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 05:48:49 Maybe it does? I dunno. If it truly were I'd just have the "language" describe the limits to expressiveness, and not do much else. 05:49:07 So it'd work outside the language, but invalid code might as well. 05:49:09 If it does this, then I don't find things so strange in the way I thought they were, and I will admit that. However, every impression I have received is that this isn't the case. 05:49:13 arcfide: the "core" is pretty big in this case. Unless you're talking about using the r6rs language to implement the plt language -- in which case you'd get to exactly the same result. 05:49:49 as for "subset" -- r6rs is a subset of plt in the functionality that you get, but r6rs is still different -- syntax, binding names etc. 05:49:57 arcfide: if you use the plt-r6rs executable, you get r6rs, nothing more nothing less 05:50:04 ...and also an "extension" with mutable pairs. 05:50:18 eli: semantics and bindings are important for interoperability. 05:50:23 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 05:50:43 grettke, according to what I was reading in the docs, it seems that you can use the base libraries and other things from PLT Scheme when in R6RS mode. 05:50:46 arcfide: yes. irrelevant to what I said. 05:51:03 arcfide: The thing giving you a bad feeling is how different language on the PLT core interact, R6RS with PLT Scheme, for example. 05:51:39 eli: My point is that it seems strange to support R6RS, but only in its own little world. If a library can't be dropped into an existing PLT Scheme application, without changing the languages and such, isn't that a little strange? If PLT doesn't do this, then okay. 05:51:47 arcfide: Yes, that is where you get the PLT Scheme non-mutable pairs versus R6RS mutable pairs caveat. 05:52:53 grettke, yes, and from my point of view, PLT Scheme functionality that extends beyond the functionality of R6RS should not cause me to have to worry about the language semantics. 05:53:21 arcfide: I can only repeat what I said -- "r6rs" and the "default" plt languages are hardly the only two in the plt tree. It just happens that the default language is much more convenient to use for the reasons I stated more than once above. 05:53:44 eli: yes, I know. 05:54:13 eli: but let's say I choose to use the "default" language in PLT Scheme, and then want to drop in an R6RS library, can I just put this library in and use it? 05:54:38 How do people handle this stuff on the Parrot VM? Or the .NET CLR? 05:54:46 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless18.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:42 eli: I admit ignorance to PLT's way of doing things, and so I'm glad to be wrong here. So far, all I have heard is that it makes sense to separate them, which I grant you provided the logic you use, but this still doesn't seem to make any more sense from the user's point of view. 05:56:24 arcfide: almost. The only main obstacle is the mutable pairs thing. The plan is to have an R6RS "variant" language that has immutable pairs by default, and that means that you do need a certain "glue" code to translate mutable pairs back and forth. 05:56:35 But other than that, things should be like you describe. 05:57:21 Obviously, there will be other issues -- like possibly some differences in struct definitions etc -- but that's not different than, for example, using two Scheme libraries where each uses it's own OO implementation. 05:57:44 arcfide: From the users perspective they are different languages which run on the same VM, that are interopable. 05:57:55 eli: so, if I import an R6RS library that someone has made that relies on the mutability of pairs, I don't have to do anything, and PLT will make sure that the R6RS semantics are preserved. But if I write my own code in PLT SCheme, and import from another library, then I should get immutable pairs, right? 05:57:58 So if you use only some values like numbers, or you agree to use mutable pairs on the scheme side, then things are like you describe at this point. 05:58:50 arcfide: I'm not sure what you mean in the above -- you left too many open holes. 05:59:13 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:24 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 06:00:56 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 06:01:01 eli: what I mean, is that a library should be able to be imported according to the portable semantics defined in R6RS, without affecting the user's ability to use non-portable features. 06:01:36 And, the importing should not be troublesome, and should be be any different than importing a library that the user has written in PLT Scheme's more expansive dialect. 06:01:36 eli: If you import at R6RS app into PLT Scheme language, does it screw up the R6RS app because PLT has immutable pairs? 06:02:04 If you import a r6rs specific thing like a mutable pair from a module marked as r6rs, will it be converted to an immutable pair for another module marked as the default 'scheme' language? 06:02:29 oops, too slow =) 06:03:28 arcfide: ok, I see the confusion: "import" is also part of the language, so you should obviously have no problem importing r6rs code from r6rs code using the r6rs semantics for importing -- but if you import r6rs code from a scheme/base code (the default plt language), then you do that using the scheme/base semantics. 06:04:18 grettke: no, that cannot happen. You'd just get the immutable pair values in the scheme/base code, and that's a little less convenient to deal with. 06:04:31 Okay, I think that is strange. 06:04:33 (what cannot happen is screwing up anything.) 06:04:39 arcfide: why is it strange? 06:05:34 The 'it' in this context is basically the fact that `require' or `import' or whatever are themselves macros, therefore depend on the language that you're using. 06:05:49 That shouldn't be strange to a schemer. 06:05:50 I have to run, sorry to miss the conclusion here, bye guys. 06:05:53 -!- grettke [n=grant@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:05:56 eli: well, first, can you import R6RS code with R6RS semantics when you are working with code that imports scheme/base? 06:06:34 The semantics of the code that is imported is never changed according to the importer, of course. 06:06:34 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 06:07:27 So if you write a library in the r6rs language, there isn't (and shouldn't) be any way for me to change it's semantics no matter how I import it. 06:08:07 eli: Here's where I get confused. If I were writing a program in PLT Scheme, and I was using the PLT Scheme features -- immutable pairs let's say -- and I'm happily hacking along, but at some point I want to import R6RS code that relies on the mutability of pairs, I should be able to import that code and it should work, without me having to change anything, and without it affecting the rest of my code. 06:08:13 I will have to deal with issues in my own language though -- for example, if I import any non-typed-scheme code into a typed-scheme module, then contracts are set up to verify the types, which is how it guarantees type soundness. 06:08:52 Same goes for lazy scheme -- as a lazy scheme programmer I should know that my functions behave differently, so I shouldn't hand them out to non-lazy modules and expect them to deal with it. 06:08:52 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has joined #scheme 06:10:14 Right, but that's all implementation specific code, and for that, anything goes. But for standards compliant, portable code, I think that its different here. I think that the standard code should expect to be able to export a mutable pair, and the importer should expect to be able to mutate that pair, regardless of whether the rest of his application uses PLT's immutable pairs. 06:10:20 re your point, that is where something like an ffi gets involved. Your code uses immutable pairs, therefore it can assume some invariants, and you cannot just pass it to other code that will break those invariants -- that's exactly why they are invariants. 06:11:03 So you will need to translate your immutable pairs to mutable ones to use the other library (and this translation can happen automatically, of course). 06:11:29 eli: I am not concerned with going from the implementation specific to the portable. In that case, I would expect the user to be able to write portable code that can be passed to portable libraries, and not expect the implementation to interpret for him. Going the other way, I think it's different. 06:12:21 eli: I still don't get whether you are saying that things will work just fine, or they won't. 06:12:22 :-) 06:12:32 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:13:11 You lost me. The bottom line is that r6rs code will behave just fine according to the r6rs semantics. If all you care about is writing portable r6rs code, then you can safely ignore plt-specifics. 06:13:33 eli: I'm worried about using portable code in plt specific languages. 06:13:43 eli: Specifically, ones that are mostly the same as R6RS, iwth minor differences. 06:14:09 eli: so, if I write in scheme/base, and I add a file to my file tree that is an R6RS library, and I load it in, it will behave as an R6RS library, right? 06:14:23 Yes. 06:14:53 Okay, that's what was confusing me, because reading the docs seems to imply that you have to explicitly be in one mode or the other, but that you can't develop in both at the same time. 06:15:47 The whole R6RS language mode throws me off into this line of thinking, which is why I find it weird. 06:15:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 06:15:54 I am glad that PLT will behave in that manner though. 06:16:47 Are the semantics of scheme/base and R6RS really so extensively different that these cannot just be turned on and off by a few #! switches or something? 06:18:06 See what I said above -- if you write a module in the r6rs language, there should not be any way for me to see it behave in any way that is different from what you intended it to do. 06:18:49 As for switching the semantics that's exactly what happens -- you start a file with `#lang scheme/base' or `#!r6rs', and you get either this or that. 06:19:06 eli: okay, great. :-) 06:19:22 But it must be something that specifies the whole file's semantics -- since they change the reader too. 06:19:40 That's understandable. 06:19:49 So you can use modules written in different languages, as long as you import them using your own language's import semantics. It's like a unified inter-module interface... 06:20:25 *arcfide* sighs. 06:20:29 synx: that's trivially true too. 06:20:29 Glad to get that figured out! 06:20:35 LOL 06:20:53 Now, I'll just go back to happily hacking away. 06:21:08 PLT Free (tm). :-P 06:21:29 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:18 What the . . . Oh, this is wrong. 06:25:30 *arcfide* stares at 1420 pages of Bluetooth nonesense. 06:30:21 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 06:37:44 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 06:49:00 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:43 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 06:59:39 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:43 peter__ [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 07:06:27 is there a way to do multi line commenting? 07:07:50 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 07:11:00 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:12:27 NaNO2x: #| and |# in some order 07:12:51 also in dr. scheme is there a way to get the inputted info above... 07:12:57 because that's pissing me off not being able to up 07:13:31 elmex [n=elmex@e180065185.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:14:11 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-90-90.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 07:14:40 just use emacs instead 07:15:01 unfortunately i have yet to learn emacs or vim 07:15:06 whenever i'm on shell i use pico 07:15:18 infact i code all my scheme in pico except for doing testing 07:19:16 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 07:19:37 -!- nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:21 -!- Kinks_ [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:21:09 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 07:24:27 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:24:56 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 07:25:28 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 07:35:11 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:41:41 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176214025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Client exiting"] 07:41:50 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:51 tjafk [n=timj@e176214025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 07:56:14 is there a way to have let create a variable that starts as an empty list? 07:56:37 (let ((tmp '()))) is giving me a let: bad syntax in: (let ((tmp ()))) 07:57:26 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has joined #scheme 07:59:32 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-53da8d3b40298bc1] has joined #scheme 07:59:36 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05588D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:11:36 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 08:12:13 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B05588D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:01 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.215.61.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:17 that's because the LET expression has no body 08:22:06 hmm? 08:26:37 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:07 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:07 (let ((x 3) (y 2)) (+ x y)) 08:28:26 without the (+ x y) this would be kind of meaningless 08:28:51 I think perhaps you want DEFINE 08:32:19 no 08:32:19 i just wanted to do this without a lambda fuction 08:32:19 i'm trying to create and return a temp list 08:32:54 return it from what? 08:33:53 you could write (let ((tmp '())) tmp) 08:34:11 but that is exactly the same as '() 08:36:09 mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has joined #scheme 08:36:19 i'm making a function that traverses a tree 08:36:29 i want it to return a list of the nodes it finds 08:39:41 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 08:48:01 -!- peter__ is now known as sjamaan 08:48:19 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 08:56:05 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:01:40 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host210-236-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 09:10:17 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:11:45 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 09:12:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 09:18:29 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 09:36:02 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:34 eli: re srfi-1, this was before srfi-23. :) 09:38:05 eli: so error handling, in r5 and previous, and up to srfi-23, was entirely implementation specific. 09:38:14 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host210-236-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 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quit [] 11:19:36 trying to decode the plt-reference... i.e. type-descriptions for functions, e.g: "directory : (or/c path-string? false/c) = #f". I'm guessing the described parameter may either satisfy the PATH-STRING? predicate or may be nil. But what do these "/c"-suffices mean. Anyone? 11:20:56 -!- sonderma` is now known as sondermann 11:23:06 Are they pure embroidery? 11:23:24 sondermann: They stand for "contract" 11:23:53 These "type-descriptions" are actually contracts that are defined on the interface defined by the module 11:23:56 Oh, thanks. How verbose. 11:24:04 heh 11:24:09 But makes sense. 11:24:29 It's an implementation of "programming by contract", like in the Eiffel language 11:25:30 Yeah, i see, good! But they could have dropped the /c. 11:25:35 You can use those yourself, too 11:25:46 No, they couldn't since this is not regular Scheme 11:25:56 nice... a few weeks later perhaps. 11:26:18 These are predicates that will throw an error if the contract is broken 11:26:33 Typograhically they are written in a different color anayway. 11:26:40 But for now, just read them as if the /c was left off, it'll be mostly correct :) 11:26:53 Yes, I think so. 11:34:11 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 11:34:33 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:36:33 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:38 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 11:54:27 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:56:03 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:00:26 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:02:57 another plt-question: what does ".ss" mean? scheme-source? 12:03:44 I think it does, yeah 12:03:51 tx! 12:06:26 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.145.116.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 12:08:30 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:53 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:10:53 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-34-45.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:10:58 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 12:11:17 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-34-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:11:45 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:12:24 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 12:13:48 sondermann: It's left over from Germans who came over after the war 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13:39:01 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:47:37 samth [n=samth@c-76-24-16-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:47:45 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:19 rudybot: seen eli? 13:48:20 samth: No sign of eli? 13:49:12 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:51:32 rudybot: seen samth? 13:51:32 samth: No sign of samth? 13:51:37 rudybot: seen eli 13:51:37 samth: eli was seen quitting in/on winooski.ccs.neu.edu one hour, two minutes ago, saying "kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net", and then eli was seen joining in/on :#scheme fifty-eight minutes, forty-seven seconds ago 13:51:52 rudybot: seen samth 13:51:52 samth: samth was seen in/on #scheme fifteen seconds ago, saying "rudybot: seen eli", and then samth was seen in/on #scheme zero seconds ago, saying "rudybot: seen samth" 13:52:08 eli? 13:52:09 rudybot: seen rudybot 13:52:10 rmrfchik: rudybot was seen quitting in/on li11-10.members.linode.com six weeks ago, saying "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)", and then rudybot was seen quitting in/on li11-10.members.linode.com five weeks, five days ago, saying "Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)" 13:53:23 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-70b3c3364d1e8940] has joined #scheme 13:54:57 -!- Guest82191 is now known as chandler 13:59:24 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:03:39 foof: Some of them moved over to Brown University later, I think. 14:04:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:13:10 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:16:04 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:39 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 14:28:53 -!- nanothief [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 14:30:08 -!- samth [n=samth@c-76-24-16-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:36:54 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:50 -!- wastrel__ is now known as wastrel 14:41:23 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@PPPoE-78-29-89-3.san.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:07 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B855CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:50:25 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:57 http://synthcode.com/emacs/scheme-complete-0.8.3.el.gz <- new release with inference and caching of exports, and optional lexically-sensitive indentation 15:00:26 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:03:29 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 15:04:12 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:04:42 schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7e4090c67d0400e7] has joined #scheme 15:08:30 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-227-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:09:16 sssss [i=869d9977@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f958390051a0cc41] has joined #scheme 15:09:53 i want to get list of all chifres of the number n.i wrote this http://pastebin.com/m21b19e3 15:10:01 but.. if i do rl 123 i get 15:10:07 (3 2 . 1) 15:10:33 and not (3 2 1) ... i know theres something wrong with cons.. how can i resolve this ? 15:10:51 if i replace (remainder n 10) with (cons (remainder n 10) ()) ?? 15:11:22 ok it worked -_- 15:14:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:16:15 glad we could help 15:16:28 offby1: =D 15:18:31 i need to write a fund that gets a list as argument and returns all the pairs of the list. it returns list[1] , list [3], list[5]... list[2n+1] of course where 2n+1 <= length(list) 15:18:37 fund = func 15:19:45 so i should get the first argument of the list.. and do recursive call to cddr L ? right (if cddr L is not null) 15:22:23 is there any function to find the length of the list ? or should i write one (do i need a function to do the upper exercise) 15:22:36 sssss: length 15:24:23 ok.. seems working 15:28:39 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@mb20736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [] 15:29:41 is there a book with scheme exercises ? 15:30:16 just about...all of them :) 15:30:36 no i mean a .pdf online somewhere with exercises.. only. 15:31:17 and most of the scheme books (htdp, tspl..) are not in pdf version (i have no internet home).. 15:31:57 the problem now is downloading a web directory 15:32:00 ;p 15:34:30 samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:34:38 *sssss* 's wgeting the scheme programming language (3rd) 15:36:08 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:37:03 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:44 -_- 15:37:46 ok everyone 15:37:47 have fun 15:38:06 -!- sssss [i=869d9977@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f958390051a0cc41] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:42:15 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:44:54 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 15:45:30 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:46:20 sonderma` [n=user@211-224-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 15:53:57 -!- sondermann [n=user@148-202-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:49 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:55:06 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:25 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:58:00 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:58:06 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:15 foof: Please don't joke about such things, they're offensive at levels you can't even imagine. 15:58:15 samth: I'm here. 16:01:50 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:04:18 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:04:50 eli: Well, the extension itself is offensive. 16:04:59 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:06:03 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:06:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-37.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 16:06:54 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless210.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:07:38 foof: The extension is also coming from Chez, well before PLT. The German person you refer to had enough issues with that that he dedicated much more time to think about it than you did. See the mailing list archives if you want more details. 16:07:58 ? 16:08:06 I wasn't referring to anyone. 16:08:25 "Germans who came over after the war and settled down as professors at Rice" 16:08:51 Yes, like Germans who settled in Argentina after the war. I'm just being silly. 16:09:13 I had no idea there were any German professors of the appropriate time-period at Rice. 16:09:40 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #scheme 16:10:16 There is a single German professor associated with Rice university and Scheme, what you said is pretty much an obvious reference. 16:10:29 As for being silly, that is not a good subject to be silly about. 16:10:38 Well, since I didn't know that it couldn't possibly be a reference. 16:11:04 -!- xwl [n=user@125.33.198.200] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:11:57 And the offensiveness is already inherent in the extension. I personally find being silly about such things lessens their offensiveness (to me, anyway). 16:12:41 Please see the mailing list discussion. It happened less than a year ago. 16:12:43 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-90-90.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12:49 I remember it. 16:13:15 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:37 And FWIW, JFYI -- the two nationalities that are completely obsessed with such issues are Israelis and Germans. It's a topic that is now, and will continue to be, a very hot one. 16:18:00 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 16:18:20 (stupid piece of shit emacs...) 16:19:54 eli: It's not just the Germans and Israelis. It was a world war. 16:20:14 *sjamaan* wants his bike back 16:20:20 *sjamaan* snickers & hides 16:20:29 My father's side of the family is French. 16:20:54 both my parent's sides of the family are french 16:20:56 *mbishop_* surrenders 16:20:59 -!- mbishop_ is now known as mbishop 16:21:17 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:21:40 *Debolaz* ponders aliasing car cadr caddr, etc, to first, second, third.. 16:21:59 *mbishop* thinks most implementations aready do that 16:22:01 foof: When was the last time you spent a full two-or-more hour block talking about WWII? 16:22:19 mbishop: It didn't seem to work in PLT.. 16:22:39 Debolaz: how did it not work? 16:22:39 eli: With my grandfather who was an Irish parachuter and POW. 16:22:47 Debolaz: pretty sure that's one of the implementations that will definitely have it...just not in standard r5rs/r6rs 16:23:08 Maybe I've selected the wrong language. 16:23:10 *Debolaz* is a newbie., 16:23:12 *mbishop* watches enough History channel to be a WWII expert 16:23:14 The whole family passed on very strong anti-Nazi sentiments to me. 16:23:29 Should PLT Textual have it? 16:23:33 Enough so that I flinch when I see the abbreviation in question. 16:23:42 So I instinctively made a joke about it. 16:23:48 foof: *when*? -- that was my question. "How often" would be the next one. I bet you whatever you want that I have spent two orders of magnitude more time. 16:24:04 It relieves the tension for me. Sorry if it increases it for you. 16:24:15 Debolaz: I think srfi-1 defines those 16:24:52 Debolaz: PLT usually has them, as "almost" aliases. That might have been why you had an error. 16:25:49 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:25:56 It doesn't go away. The remembrance is there all the time. But I don't want to talk too much about it with my bad English. 16:26:07 foof, eli: What does this extension stand for that is offensive? 16:26:45 levi: look through the plt mailing list archives. 16:27:19 levi: #1 google hit for the PLT file extension 16:29:01 Ah, okay. 16:29:02 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 16:29:41 *mbishop* missed the extension in question 16:30:01 oh 16:30:02 found it 16:31:49 I think it's silly to be offended by coincidence, however I do prefer .scm myself 16:32:33 Reading the backlog, I thought the fuss was over "/c" on the end of procedure names. 16:32:45 Yes rightly so. You see, for some the connotation is overwhelming. 16:32:50 levi: Don't even get me started on that!!! >:| 16:32:57 And I totally didn't get the connection with WWII. 16:33:01 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:33 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:33:44 If you really want something to talk about, talk about "Stalin", which is not even a coincidence. 16:33:50 Heh, I didn't get it until now. 16:34:32 Some 15, 20 years ago we even tried to avoid certain variable names. 16:36:51 I think the whole PC issue around this is a bit silly, but is a topic that tends to be smart to avoid on IRC. 16:37:11 SCM could be offensive as well. It could stand for Senior Citizen Module, which would offend offby1 16:37:28 *mbishop* hides from flying dentures 16:37:42 mbishop: It's not just a coincidental "could stand for xxx." 16:38:29 The abbreviation itself has strong connotations. 16:39:18 That's true, but I think it some ways that's still coincidence 16:39:22 in* 16:39:32 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:39:58 I highly doubt whoever decided on ss as a file extension was thinking of the nazi secret police 16:40:54 but again, I prefer scm myself, and I haven't seen an implementation that doesn't use .scm (in fact, PLT is the only one I have used that used .ss) 16:41:02 I highly doubt most people even make the connection unless explicitly reminded of it. 16:41:28 I never did 16:41:32 until this discussion 16:42:19 Then again, I never associated scm with "scum" either, until reading the discussion from February 16:43:51 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 16:44:30 There's a lot of things in the world that people should take a much stronger stance against but that largely just gets ignored by the people who seem to trip up on stuff like SS. 16:44:58 you rebel scm 16:47:32 *mbishop* pokes Daemmerung 16:47:33 For something scheme related, how do I get the first, second, third, aliases in MzScheme if they're not enabled by default? 16:48:06 ...to me, the first association is "Social Security," then "Secret Service." Schutzstaffel is pretty far down there. 16:48:59 I always assumed "Scheme Source" the first time I saw it 16:49:01 *mbishop* shrugs 16:49:13 *Debolaz* is this close to just defining them himself.. 16:49:30 Debolaz: DO IT! 16:49:36 :o 16:49:41 *Debolaz* jumps 16:49:47 Debolaz: well, I believe "Pretty Big" includes them 16:49:57 not sure if PLT 4 even has that language anymore 16:49:59 ask eli 16:50:16 Ah, pretty big worked. :) 16:50:18 Thank you. 16:51:59 *mbishop* taps his foot waiting for his pizza to arrive 16:52:16 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #scheme 16:53:00 Debolaz: (require scheme/list) 16:53:04 Mmmm, pizza. 16:53:35 *mbishop* taps his foot to scare away gnomon 16:54:03 *Debolaz* is trying to extend his object system to include attributes and some of the argument lists are getting a bit unmanagable. 16:54:14 *Daemmerung* taps his foot to scare away tigers 16:54:17 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 16:55:57 Chibapet [n=mason@69.38.177.2] has joined #scheme 16:57:29 Hey all. I wonder if someone might point me to one or more examples of mutual recursion being the natural way to solve a problem. I'm trying to convince myself that recursion-instead-of-iteration makes sense, and I think that boils down to finding compelling examples of mutual recursion, since that realistically can't be done in a hugely clean way iteratively. 16:57:57 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:14 jcowan_ [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-115-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:58:35 Chibapet: seen odd/even example in r5rs? 16:58:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 16:58:46 I'll look that up. 16:58:59 Is it in r6 too? 16:59:12 Chibapet: Personally, I feel that recursive solutions are much easier to understand and make. 16:59:29 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:59:38 dunno... r6rs is of no interest to me. 16:59:56 They can be, but they're often only feasible as tail-recursion, Debolaz. 17:00:05 r5rs letrec 17:00:05 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_132 17:00:07 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/36lv6j 17:00:09 there 17:00:52 sladegen: thank you, reading that 17:01:04 it's trivial, tho ;) 17:01:26 are mutually recursive functions tail-call optimised in scheme? 17:01:35 They are required to be. 17:02:01 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:08 -!- jcowan_ is now known as jcowan 17:02:51 Chibapet, an excellent example of mutual recursion being the natural way to solve a problem is in Shriram Krishnamurthi's presentation "Swine Before Perl", wherein he shows that a state machine can be expressed both cleanly and efficiently as a set of mutually recursive procedures. 17:03:48 Hm, but even that even/odd thing seems like an advertisement for iteration. You have to look at it and understand that what really matters is the transition to zero, and how you track that becomes less interesting. The odd? and even? calls can just as easily be increment-a-state-variable and decrement-a-state-variable. 17:03:58 gnomon, will look at that as well. 17:04:05 I want to be convinced. I really do. :) 17:04:32 The problem is that the majority of contrived examples are hardly convincing. 17:04:40 vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 17:04:49 Chibapet: Resource-wise for deep recursion in Scheme: Yes. Though I feel they in general are much easier to understand, since recursing is simply reducing a problem and applying the same solution to it. 17:05:18 What Scheme really exposes is that the distinction between recursive and iterative solutions is not one of syntax. 17:06:21 jcowan, right, that's what I'm looking for - I want to see recursion as being something inherently more powerful. Otherwise it *is* just syntactic fad. I'll look at "Swine Before Perl" again. 17:06:42 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7e4090c67d0400e7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:07:03 Perl++ :) 17:07:54 (My job is Perl hacking, FWIW.) 17:08:18 Hehe. 17:08:43 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:08:54 I use perl as part of my work too. It's still the language that lets me develope and maintain software fastest and simplest. 17:09:30 Recursion is also an Occham's razor; since in depth-first-search, the non-recursive solution has to resort to a stack which is implicit in the recursive version. 17:09:44 I love Perl. I think it has some limitations, the complexity and quasi-ambiguity of syntax being only one of them. 17:10:52 Chibapet: The possibly complex syntax is a problem, but only for a subset of users: Newbies. Ie, people who are just starting to learn the language and gets confused by the many syntactical possibilities. 17:11:01 (I tried writing a generic fold in Perl the other day, for kicks. List handling in Perl leaves something to be desired.) 17:11:53 Debolaz - not to go too far off-topic, but having to understand the difference between array context and list context in Perl is a clear and obvious loss for everyone, let alone newbies. :) 17:11:55 That is a real problem, it makes perl more difficult to learn compared to certain other scripting languages. But people often make it out to be a problem in other ways, which it's not. 17:13:22 *jcowan* nods. 17:13:27 Chibapet: To this date, I've yet to encounter a situation where I had to understand the difference. Between scalar context and list context, sure, but not between array and list context. 17:13:49 Debolaz: You have a real treat ahead of you then, for when it does crop up for you. :) 17:14:25 Chibapet: I've used perl since '96. It has had 12 years to crop up, I'm not expecting it to happen in immediate future. 17:15:09 carlf [i=carlf@photocarl.org] has joined #scheme 17:15:30 Really, there are only two contexts a programmer needs to care about in perl: Scalar and list. Anything else is mostly theoretical. 17:15:32 One of the other problems with Perl's overly complicated syntax is that extending it meaningfully is almost impossible. That's not something that matters 99% of the time, but in those rare cases where syntactic extension would be a real win, Perl programmers have to go without whereas Lisp and Scheme coders have a rich set of options. 17:15:52 (hell, even Lua coders can resort to one of several macro and token preprocessor solutions) 17:16:23 This is your cue, Debolaz, to assert that in twelve years of coding Perl you've never felt the need to extend its syntax. 17:16:50 gnomon: Lacking macros is an annoyance, I agree with that. But other than that, it's fairly easy to extend. 17:17:05 Oh, really? 17:17:21 gnomon: Look at Moose for instance, adds several keywords: has, extends, with, etc.. 17:17:25 *Chibapet* apologizes to the channel for having mentioned Perl. :P 17:18:04 *Daemmerung* stalks off in high dudgeon 17:18:17 Sure, you are somewhat restricted in how this new syntax may look unless you want to do a lot of work, but the exact same thing is true for lisp. 17:18:49 *gnomon* shrugs 17:19:03 I've never attempted to extend Perl's syntax, so I can't reasonably argue that point. 17:19:19 you can always preprocess your perl source code with perl before runtime... 17:19:46 *sladegen* waves the regex hammer. 17:19:50 Syntactic preprocessing is -not- the same thing as an integrated macro system, sladegen, and you know better than that ;) 17:19:55 sladegen: Or modify the opcodes if you're desperate enough. :) 17:20:14 Emphasis on desperate. 17:21:07 sladegen: http://search.cpan.org/~berle/Filter-PPI-0.00_01/lib/Filter/PPI.pm <- Module for PPI based source filtering, a lot cleaner than regular filtering but also a lot slower. 17:21:30 *mbishop* snickers at Perl 17:21:39 Seriously. 17:22:20 xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 17:24:32 kryptiskt [n=kryptisk@c83-249-72-204.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:24:39 Debolaz: you must be new here. 17:24:53 sladegen: Yes I am. :) 17:25:02 :) 17:25:45 What can an integrated macro system do that systematic preprocessing cannot? All macro systems I know of can be implemented by systematic preprocessing, and often are. 17:26:58 jcowan: The problem with preprocessing of source is that it rarely if ever can be done reliably in anything but very simple cases, while say lisp style macro are perfectly reliable. 17:27:07 they can save you from turing tar-pit...? 17:27:44 http://lists.warhead.org.uk/pipermail/iwe/2005-July/000130.html 17:30:23 I don't mean preprocessing by a C preprocessor: I mean source-to-source transformation of whatever sort 17:30:50 jcowan: I mean source-to-source transformation too. I can't be done reliably. 17:31:09 Example? 17:31:44 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-37.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:33:31 jcowan: The problem is that it essencially requires your transforming function to understand the source. This often in practice requires reimplementing the language in question, which most people just don't care to do, so they take shortcuts. Which works sometimes, but other times breaks horribly. Any source filter module on CPAN is a good example. 17:35:17 You can make pretty much anyone of them trip up in bad ways quite trivially. 17:35:35 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:16 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 17:36:34 Those are just *bad* source to source transformations. In the Lisp context, we have the whole language trivially available. 17:37:10 Also, source filtering often makes your program harder to debug, since the compiled source that any bugs happen in is not the same as the one you wrote that you have in your editor window. 17:37:52 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:03 sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has joined #scheme 17:38:37 They are bad *because* source transformation is inherently unreliable. 17:38:55 darx [n=darx@82-37-17-145.cable.ubr03.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:40:04 Granted, perl source is difficult to parse, but the principle is true for pretty much any language. 17:40:11 I don't understand the "Counting change" example of SICP. Can someone help me? 17:40:15 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:54 If it were really inherently unreliable, reliable compilers wouldn't be possible either. Sloppy implementation practice does not equal inherent unreliability. 17:41:32 And yes, ease of parsing has a lot to do with it. If there were a standardized AST representation of Perl source as there is of Lisp source, readily available to all Perl, all the hacked-up parsers would probably disappear. 17:41:39 s/Perl,/Perl programmers, 17:41:57 jcowan - that's coming in Perl 6, fwiw 17:43:09 *jcowan* nods. 17:43:20 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 17:44:16 jcowan: That's a nonsensical argument, what I'm saying is that most people don't want to reimplement the compiler. With lisp, this isn't neccesary because it makes the structure of the program easily available to you, so macros are possible to use to transform the structure after reading the source, but then we're not talking about source processing anymore and any language that can do this usually don't need source processing either. 17:45:28 I could in theory make a source filter module that does a perfect job, but it would essencially require me to reimplement most of the perl interpreter. This is a significant task (As in, it will probably take many years to complete a reasonably bugfree version), one that most people don't want to do. 17:46:03 Why do you dismiss without argument the notion that parsing is a part of source-to-source transformation? 17:48:36 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 17:50:17 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:50:19 Because working on the program structure (Ie, the parsed result from the real compiler) would make it a macro system, not a source filter imho. 17:51:15 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 17:51:15 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 17:51:15 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 17:51:28 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 17:51:33 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 17:56:52 Okay, so for you "filter" means "stupid filter". Whatever. 18:04:47 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:15 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:06:39 Well, something like that. To me, source means source, not AST. :) 18:11:07 Though I understand your point better now. 18:14:55 Riastradh: ping 18:15:04 chandler: pong 18:15:34 Riastradh: do you have any use for some free UltraSPARC machines? 18:16:26 No, I don't think so. 18:16:56 OK. The FSF is giving them away (first come first served), and I thought you might have an interest. 18:17:11 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:22 Reference? 18:17:52 Riastradh: http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/reuse-recycle/index.html plus an email that I was told about second-hand over IRC. 18:18:28 Ooh, does this mean I can give away UltraSPARC machines too, and folks will just take them, and save me the landfill fee? :) 18:28:36 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #scheme 18:29:36 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@79.0.237.10] has joined #scheme 18:31:16 -!- aiur [n=Jan@218.109.80.242] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:59 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 18:33:43 Chibapet: Craigslist is probably your friend. Computers don't belong in landfills in general -- they are toxic waste. 18:34:02 wabash [n=user1@pool-71-98-1-53.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:35:28 whats the difference between the following: 18:35:47 (def (add3 n) (+ 3 n)) 18:36:03 (def add3 (lambda (n) (+ 3 n))) 18:36:07 def? 18:36:12 Are they equivalent? 18:36:17 I meant "define", sorry. 18:36:20 If you mean "define", then they are equivalent. 18:36:21 Been working with Ruby 18:36:38 The second is the general case, the first is syntactic sugar. 18:37:05 jcowan: Really? wow, cool! I didn't get that before. Thank you. 18:37:23 So they actually do exactly the same thing: bind "add3" to a procedure that takes one arg? 18:39:01 yes 18:39:11 Chibapet: Arigatou. 18:42:04 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:14 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-099-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 18:47:53 aaron [n=eren@78.178.45.244] has joined #scheme 18:51:16 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@cpe-74-68-115-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 18:53:38 -!- wabash [n=user1@pool-71-98-1-53.mdsnwi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #scheme 18:55:17 erik__ [n=erik@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:55:17 aaron_ [n=eren@78.178.45.244] has joined #scheme 18:55:37 -!- erik__ [n=erik@70.116.95.163] has quit [Client Quit] 18:55:58 erik__ [n=erik@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:56:38 -!- erik__ [n=erik@70.116.95.163] has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:57 kilimanjaro [n=kilimanj@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 19:00:47 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@79.0.237.10] has quit [] 19:04:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #scheme 19:05:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-37.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 19:05:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-37.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11:45 Wow, that Swine Before Perl talk is *exactly* what I wanted. 19:12:30 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 19:12:34 ok that may sound like a stupid question, but: why can't I do (cons 'a 'b) in PLT-scheme 4.1 anymore? Is this some R6RS thing? 19:13:29 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 19:13:54 works for me 19:14:01 what language are you using? 19:14:09 I get "cons: second argument must be of type , given a and b" 19:14:14 "advanced student" 19:14:21 it is working in "pretty big" 19:14:42 returns (a . b) 19:15:36 Dark-Star: you need to get out of the student modes. 19:16:38 ah. which mode corresponds to sth. like "MrEd full" (or whatever that was called in prev. versions)? 19:17:41 Module, or Pretty Big for legacy. 19:18:14 The student modes are for folks working through HtDP. They strongly restrict the language in ways such as what you've seen. 19:19:02 aw, that takes away all the "fun" (i.e. experience) of debugging large programs... 19:20:27 when I was learning scheme at university, we didn't even have a graphical debugger. If you ever got a "+: expects , given " deeply inside your code, you knew how you would spend the next hour or so :) 19:21:07 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:42 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:23:55 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 19:26:33 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-26-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:29:37 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless210.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:29:40 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless210.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 19:31:10 Procedures accidentally left unevaluated can be so tricky. 19:31:29 oh? 19:33:09 At least for me, it's hard to tell where the procedure failed to turn into a number because of forgetting to call the lambda or what. 19:33:35 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:33:51 Sometimes it passes down through several contexts, or even recursively but at some point there's a call left out that only produces an error later, when a number is needed. 19:34:46 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 19:39:58 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:40:55 is that any different than, say, python? 19:41:37 No I think it's the same in any language with first class functions. 19:42:19 it may be even worse in languages like c, where a function pointer might actually yield a number at some point 19:43:39 Oh it's just impossible in C. Sometimes you don't know if it's a long integer, or a pointer to something else! 19:44:40 in C everything is a number (eventually) 19:45:26 gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host9-232-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:46:49 Some things are a sequence of numbers... 19:47:26 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 19:48:08 Scheme is a series of tubes! 19:48:43 I guess that could be considered an extremely large multi-word integer. 19:55:43 -!- aaron [n=eren@78.178.45.244] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:55:57 -!- aaron_ [n=eren@78.178.45.244] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:01:17 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-37.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 20:02:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-62.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:11:43 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["farinn ad sofa"] 20:16:50 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:17:31 Kirakishou [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:22:40 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit [] 20:22:58 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.88] has joined #scheme 20:29:40 KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has joined #scheme 20:31:53 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 20:39:24 Dark-Star|away [i=Darkstar@p57B57F04.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:40:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has left #scheme 20:42:14 -!- gigabytes [n=gigabyte@host9-232-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [] 20:48:06 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:49:47 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:51:04 -!- Dark-Star [i=Darkstar@p57B54C1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:51:22 -!- carlf [i=carlf@photocarl.org] has left #scheme 20:55:00 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless210.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:55:03 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless210.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:56:49 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:00 qeb`away [n=robb@084202208058.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #scheme 20:57:06 -!- qeb`away [n=robb@084202208058.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:47 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:01:11 -!- Cale [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:01:19 -!- Cale_ is now known as Cale 21:04:33 ejel [n=ong@client-146-186-228-28.mobility-up.psu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:04:52 Hi everyone. 21:05:58 Anyone familiar with define-datatype? 21:07:25 i have not used it, but have looekd at it 21:08:26 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 21:08:27 -!- Dark-Star|away is now known as Dark-Star 21:09:43 I'm working on my assignment and kind of stuck right now. I'm supposed to create a queue data structure representative using define-datatype construct. 21:10:33 sorry, no idea 21:11:21 thanks anyway. 21:16:10 -!- Kirakishou [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:33 ejel, whats your question with define-datatype 21:21:19 I'm kind of not quite understand the use of define-datatype just yet. 21:21:48 For example, I'd like to define a queue data structure using define-datatype. 21:22:23 I wonder if it possible to use define-datatype and use list a the representation of my queue data structure? 21:22:55 yea you could 21:23:45 Could you show me some example? Because I could not see where could I put in the list construct in define-datatype. 21:23:55 (define-datatype my-queue (empty ()) (queue (object ...) (rest ...)) or something 21:24:13 I think you can just represent the queue directly 21:24:38 hm, i guess its sort of backwards though 21:25:12 what do you mean, backward? 21:25:26 well a queue is fifo, but a list is lifo 21:25:40 so you would have to reverse the list each time to get off the first element 21:26:19 Oh yes, I know. I was just tried to come up with different approaches because I'm stil not quite understand how define-datatype works. 21:27:02 it creates a polymorphic type. so if a function accepts a queue then the queue could be an Empty queue or a RealQueue 21:27:39 its like the type is Human and a variant is Male and Female 21:27:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-70-37.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:27:57 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has left #scheme 21:28:15 ah now I see how it could be used :) 21:28:15 For instance, actually I defined queue datatype just like you suggested, but don't quite understand how to implement dequeue that follow this grammar. 21:28:35 for each variant you ask yourself what does dequeue mean 21:28:38 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.88] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:28:40 so what does dequeue mean on an empty queue? 21:28:50 I means an empty queue, still. 21:28:56 ok, that or an error 21:29:01 Ok. 21:29:02 so what does dequeue mean on a queue with 1 element 21:29:12 It means 0 element. 21:29:30 yea, take off the first element and give you back an empty queue 21:29:42 so for 0 = error, 1 = empty and N = n-1 21:29:53 you can combine the 1 and N case probably 21:30:11 Yes, I think there're two cases, empty and nonempty. 21:30:17 so in your dequeue function you have predicates for the object that say (empty? q) ...; (queue? q) ... 21:31:14 and the same for enqueue 21:31:34 lelf` [n=lelf`@217.118.90.74] has joined #scheme 21:31:37 The problem is the nonempty case, I don't know how can I remove the first element out from this structure. Because from the structure the non-emptyqueue is queue + symbol 21:31:40 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:31:53 So it's kind of recursive on the tail side. 21:32:17 right you have to traverse down the queue to find the first element 21:32:19 bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 21:32:35 but there should be a better way.. 21:32:49 So I'm not quite sure how to come up with a queue without just first element. 21:33:01 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.74] has joined #scheme 21:33:22 i feel like this has something to do with amortized cost, that if you keep the list of elements and reverse it just to dequeue then the amortized cost is O(1) 21:33:31 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.74] has left #scheme 21:33:44 -!- lelf` [n=lelf`@217.118.90.74] has left #scheme 21:33:56 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:33:57 Can you use a fixed-length queue? 21:34:45 Why not just construct the list in reverse? :) 21:35:25 That's no solution. You just end up with a queue that's O(1) to dequeue and O(n) to enqueue. 21:36:20 just keep a reference to the 'top' 21:36:37 Right. Google NCONC. 21:37:34 jonrafkind: read 'purely functional data structures' by Okasaki, it explains amortization with a queue as example 21:37:42 yea, I know of it 21:37:59 I went through the example some time back, which is why I thought of it.. I just forget the details 21:39:06 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:39:11 Well, actually right now I'm not concern on performance at all. I just want to have the most straightforward implementation as an example. 21:39:34 To get an idea on how to use this define-datatype construct. 21:42:11 So for enqueue, I might have something like this (cases queue q (empty () (nonempty q x)) (nonempty (subqueue y) (nonempty q x)))) 21:43:33 if the given queue, q is an empty queue, it creates nonemptyqueue with x insert at the tail. 21:44:37 sounds reasonable 21:44:47 and if q is nonempty it also do the same thing basically. 21:45:37 So the structure looks like this ((((empty) elem1) elem2) elem3) 21:46:14 But now for the dequeue, I have no idea how to do it. 21:46:29 so in that example elem1 is the first thing to dequeue 21:46:38 That's right. 21:46:50 you would have to say (empty? child) then value, else (dequeue child) 21:47:03 So the result should be (((empty) elem2) elem3) 21:48:31 Allow me to digest your suggestion a little bit. 21:50:21 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 21:53:33 In that case wouldn't it just result in giving the dequeued element back? 21:53:48 Instead of result in a queue with the first element dequeued. 21:54:30 -!- moonfart [n=moonfart@199.2.121.90] has quit [Client Quit] 21:55:29 It's possible to represent a queue using two lists... 21:56:34 If the second is empty, empty out the first into the second by car and cons, otherwise car from the second. I think that's how it goes... 21:56:55 Every element has to be moved exactly once, so I guess it would be O(1) still for enqueueing/dequeueing. 21:57:54 Could you show me how to use lists as a backing representation on define-datatype? 21:58:55 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-70b3c3364d1e8940] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:00:03 a backing...? maybe, hold on. 22:01:09 Because right now I have no idea how to use built-in data structure with define-datatype. 22:02:25 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:10 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055E2A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:42 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 22:11:01 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:14:20 sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 22:16:34 nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 22:17:28 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:05 I doubt you have to... 22:21:26 This is horrible, but: https://synx.us.to/feepcode/listqueue.ss 22:21:54 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:18 What I was trying to say is with this you only need to reverse at the first dequeue, not every dequeue. 22:22:45 Ooh, there's more to ponder at the end of the Swine Before Perl talk. I wonder if there's commentary anywhere on the merits of doing Krishnamurthi's automata example without macros, using higher order functions. His rebuttal was "you can't compile it statically" with higher order functions, but I would pay in blood to hear a competent ML person argue the other side of that. 22:22:56 Sorry I was taught queues in a very mutable way, so my immutable code looks horrible. 22:23:57 Whoa, thanks. I know what you mean, because that is what I have been taught too. 22:23:59 Yeah sure you can compile it statically... you just have to do so at runtime, if you're creating a function at runtime. Depending on the function, might be able to reuse another generic function... 22:24:10 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 22:24:27 However, I'm looking for a way to define a queue using define-datatype construct, specifically. 22:24:29 Well, but generally, I wonder what the higher-order example without macros would be. 22:24:36 Why? 22:24:37 how it would look 22:24:42 I haven't even heard of define-datatype before. 22:25:03 It's part of that type-specific stuff? 22:25:17 It's suppose to be a way that facilitate creating custome data type more easily. 22:26:04 Honestly, I'm not quite sure. I guess it originated from Essentials of Programming Languages book. 22:26:47 Oh, yeah I can see that. Haven't had a copy of that in forever though, sorry. 22:26:59 This is how I define a stack 22:27:08 I'm not really heavily invested in the notion of "type" myself. 22:27:10 (define-datatype stack stack? 22:27:10 (emptystack) 22:27:11 (nonemptystack (top symbol?) (rest stack?))) 22:27:11 (define (stk-push stk x) 22:27:11 (cases stack stk 22:27:11 (emptystack () (nonemptystack x stk)) 22:27:13 (nonemptystack (y substk) (nonemptystack x stk)))) 22:27:15 (define (stk-pop stk) 22:27:17 (cases stack stk 22:27:19 (emptystack () (emptystack)) 22:27:21 (nonemptystack (y substk) substk))) 22:27:23 opps. sorry. 22:27:26 pastebot? 22:27:34 you betta be sorry 22:27:46 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:19 What is a recommended way to post a code snippet here? 22:28:46 Here's how I define a stack: '() 22:30:00 ejel: http://paste.lisp.org/ or if you're nuts fire up a web server 22:30:43 ejel pasted "stack" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68074 22:31:09 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:31:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:10 -!- samth is now known as samth_away 22:43:59 Gnaaah! Have I ever mentioned how full of stupid details URIs and RDF and XML &c. are? 22:49:25 -!- bweaver [n=bweaver@75.148.111.133] has quit [] 22:50:55 -!- kryptiskt [n=kryptisk@c83-249-72-204.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:59 This is so stupid I have to find something to eat. 22:51:37 yes, eat the stupid away 22:53:02 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:56:00 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 22:59:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 22:59:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-158-119.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:16 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:00:41 kryptiskt [n=kryptisk@c83-249-72-204.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:10:22 grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 23:10:23 GreyLensma1 [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:10:29 -!- GreyLensma1 [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 23:11:09 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:11:32 arcfide 23:13:09 -!- grettke [n=grettke@CPE-65-31-132-59.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 23:13:58 -!- sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 23:23:02 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-161-111.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 23:24:43 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:27:10 Good night, all. 23:27:14 -!- Chibapet [n=mason@69.38.177.2] has quit [] 23:30:04 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 23:31:05 pinp [n=None@69-196-152-24.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 23:33:56 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-099-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:16 -!- ejel [n=ong@client-146-186-228-28.mobility-up.psu.edu] has quit [] 23:42:16 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 23:47:01 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:47:02 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-230-179.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:59 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out]