00:00:12 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:02:34 so yeah... klutometis i am just not seeing this have any more pointers? 00:08:17 NaNO2x: the sicp link... 00:08:30 yeah i've been reading through 00:11:45 ugh if i can just figure out the size function i think the rest will fall into plae 00:13:13 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:02 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:17:32 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:26:04 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 00:33:25 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:37:14 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:41:36 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #scheme 00:44:27 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-42-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:48:47 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.234.213.98] has joined #scheme 00:57:21 -!- ivan [n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has left #scheme 00:57:44 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-27-197.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:50 NaNO2x: can you paste your current code? 01:03:41 yeah..i'm taking a break to watch the debate 01:05:03 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:57 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:14:48 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:19:34 NaNO2x: same here; sorry, dude, but sarah makes me giggle/chortle 01:19:57 she is hot 01:21:21 she wears those glasses with aplomb 01:21:39 hot 01:22:39 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:47 Good evening everyone. 01:22:59 Klutometis, ping. 01:27:28 arcfide: thanks for 0.2, man; shouldn't be too hard to port to chicken, methinks 01:27:44 klutometis, is it at all useful to you? 01:28:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:43 it will be, i think; like i said, gopher is superior to mod_autoindex 01:28:59 that we have a scheme impl. just makes it doubleplus good 01:29:40 klutometis, If you have any features that you would like added, let me know. I expect additions to be slow since it mostly does what I need at the moment, until I start having more free time. 01:32:50 sounds good, arcfide; once i port it to chicken i should have some more data 01:34:06 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.3in.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:35:35 she said "nucular" 01:36:34 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.3in.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 01:37:06 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:38 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:45 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:07 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:39:15 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:39:25 bah 01:40:12 klutometis, we are cracking up here :P 01:43:13 heh 01:43:49 she can't get her hair out of her face 01:44:46 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:46:00 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:49:29 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:50:01 check out #vpdebate 01:50:10 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:50:23 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 01:53:52 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:55:25 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:56:54 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 01:57:51 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:57:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 02:00:25 JesseL627 [n=Lemon@ip98-181-45-13.br.br.cox.net] has joined #scheme 02:03:35 -!- JesseL627 [n=Lemon@ip98-181-45-13.br.br.cox.net] has left #scheme 02:05:20 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 02:11:39 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:18:32 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:21:16 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 02:30:36 annodomini_ [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:57 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-0-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:37:18 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-0-112.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:55 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-9-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:38:21 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 02:39:13 Hmm... I'm using MIT-Scheme here and it seems (char #\å) does not work. Is there some other scheme where this does work? 02:39:37 (char? #\å) even 02:39:55 schme, you might want to check what kind of string you are using. 02:40:45 What kind of string? 02:41:22 How on earth do I do that? 02:41:36 schme, have you read through the reference manual? 02:41:47 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:42:02 Nope. I'm just reading this scheme in fixnum days. 02:42:13 (char-upcase #\a) works fine (char-upcase #\å) does not. 02:42:33 schme, what is that last character supposed to be? I don't have my UTF terminal enabled. 02:42:38 Oh. 02:42:43 a with a o over. 02:42:58 Å or something in the html 02:43:25 You mean Å 02:43:25 ? 02:43:40 Yeah. 02:43:47 well the downcase one, but ya 02:45:09 schme, you should read the 5.7 section on Unicode in the Reference manual. 02:46:36 MIT Scheme has Unicode support, but it's "grafted" onto normal characters. You could try the 8-bit ASCII instead of Unicode if you just want that, but otherwise, you can check out the above and see if it gives you some direction. 02:46:52 I am reading that. 02:47:15 I can't really find anything on how to get that char function work with anything but basic ascii. 02:47:25 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:47:29 schme, it may not, you might have to do something else. 02:47:35 I don't really know how that works in MIT Scheme. 02:47:41 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-301252.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:47:45 Yeah.. 02:47:59 "something else" is what I am doing. browsing around for another scheme :) 02:48:50 rudybot: eval (char? #\å) 02:48:50 offby1: ; Value: #t 02:48:57 rudybot: eval (char->integer #\å) 02:48:57 offby1: ; Value: 229 02:49:07 rudybot: eval (integer->char 300) 02:49:08 offby1: ; Value: #\ 02:49:12 rudybot: eval (integer->char 3000) 02:49:12 offby1: ; Value: #\ 02:49:16 rudybot: eval (integer->char 30000) 02:49:16 offby1: ; Value: #\ 02:49:26 rudybot: eval (integer->char 'one-MILLION-dollars) 02:49:27 offby1: error: integer->char: expects argument of type ; given one-MILLION-dollars 02:49:44 *offby1* holds his pinky to his lips 02:50:02 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-42-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:39 I guess that rudybot is not running on mit-scheme 02:51:04 schme, did you try to make a string of that character? 02:51:10 What? 02:51:16 No I just tried (char? ...) 02:51:20 rudybot: eval (banner) 02:51:20 offby1: ; Value: "Welcome to MzScheme v4.1 [3m], Copyright (c) 2004-2008 PLT Scheme Inc.\n" 02:51:31 schme, I'm just curious if MIT Scheme will handle the character if it is grabbed from a string. 02:51:40 It might have to be specified as a code point. 02:51:46 Ok. 02:51:55 That sounds great. I have no idea what you are talking about though :) 02:52:08 Tell you what, if I reinstall mit-scheme some day I'll try that out. 02:52:11 I really don't know how MIT Scheme handles that. 02:52:29 Chez Scheme doesn't even do Unicode explicitly, yet. :) 02:52:56 Ok. 02:53:02 Well it seems to work with chicken 02:54:00 It's kinda important for it to work though :) 02:54:05 chicken is indeed versatile 02:54:28 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:42 Does anyone here know about bluetooth programming? 02:56:03 oh.. (string-ref "åäö" 0) gives me some odd questionmark character as a return in the mit. 02:56:06 NOpe. 02:56:07 I can find precious little information online that leads me to some sort of normal understanding of the standard procedures for handling bluetooth. 02:56:40 I have a normal procedure for handling bluetooth. Toss the damn device into the wall, and buy a new one. ;) 02:56:40 *offby1* laughs cruelly 02:56:42 schme: MIT Scheme probably doesn't have the ability to display them out, though it could probably write them to a file. 02:56:58 schme: the native engine in MIT Scheme is based on ISO-8859-1, and the Unicode is just added on. 02:57:17 schme: Thanks, but, I'm afraid I'll have to decline on that one. 02:58:11 schme: I understand that Unicode support was tacked onto MIT Scheme as a means of supporting XML, and so its implementation can reasonably be expected to orient itself in that direction. 02:58:21 I see. 02:58:47 It does seem incredibly hard to find good bluetooth information on the google. 02:58:56 That's odd. One would suppose they wanted the information out there. 02:59:18 the only information I really want is, how the hell did they come up with that name? 02:59:31 I can't find any standard interface. It obviously goes through sockets on UNIX type machines, but beyond that, the lookup and addressing seems hidden. 02:59:53 Yeah I'd call it "radio" myself. wtf thought up "blue tooth"? :/ 03:00:32 arcfide: Isn't bluetooth a kind of wireless network device? It'd work just like an ethernet card... unless you want to get at the raw antenna? 03:00:36 http://www.unclescam.org/teeth7.html 03:00:37 aspect: I think it's related to the old viking king. 03:01:03 aha, that makes sense 03:01:06 synx, the addressing is what is confusing me. Once I get a socket, I'm fine. 03:01:21 it always suonded a bit paratical to me .. yellowbeard, bluetooth, etc 03:01:50 arcfide: It'd be either IPv4 or IPv6... are you doing broadcast sockets? 03:01:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Bluetooth :) 03:02:21 bluetooth is ip? o.O 03:02:58 synx, on OpenBSD, there is a separate bluetooth protocol with it's own host functions and such. 03:03:06 I could be wrong... o.o I've never had a wireless card before. My friend had one though, and it seemed to just be an ethernet device. 03:03:16 so klutometis 03:03:17 Wow, that's weird. My bad then. 03:03:22 synx, wireless cards are different than bluetooth. 03:03:31 synx, wireless cards are just wireless network adaptors. 03:03:38 Bluetooth is something different I think. 03:03:58 Okay. So bluetooth is... that's not that infra-red stuff, is it? 03:04:08 BT is RF 03:04:10 IRDA is IR 03:04:13 arcfide: what do you want to communicate with? 03:04:30 Huh it does look like a protocol, not a type of device. 03:04:32 both BT and 802.11 standards use 2.4ghz 03:04:39 synx: Bluetooth is that terrible thing known to cause strange borgish growths on executives' ears. 03:05:14 arcfide: or people who look like they are talking to themselves on the street 03:05:36 arcfide: Maybe some of these will help http://www.bluetooth.com/Bluetooth/Technology/Building/Specifications/ 03:05:37 aspect, I have a robotic board that communicates through bluetooth as the interface for controlling my robot. I need to get my sockets library up and supporting bluetooth before I can use the robot. 03:05:38 it looks like bt is a link layer, parallel with 802.11 .. "bluetooth profiles" are the layers that sit on top of it 03:05:55 right 03:06:02 they can do serial-style communication 03:06:04 audio 03:06:05 etc 03:06:24 I think you can actually serialize RS232 over BT 03:06:36 wiki says it's an "ad-hoc" network, so I guess you just try to pick your address so it doesn't conflict? 03:06:50 there are a lot of profiles at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_profile , but precious little rfc-style information 03:08:03 Wow, okay, this looks like it's way too complicated for just a little protocol. :-) 03:08:44 it looks like it was designed by java engineers :) 03:08:47 arcfide: Pfft. just grab the 1234123 page zipped up pdf of the specs and read through that ;) 03:10:38 Well thanks for all the help here. I should go drink coffee. 03:12:34 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 03:16:52 schme, if you want to make MIT Scheme read UTF-8 from the console, evaluate (PORT/SET-CODING CONSOLE-I/O-PORT 'UTF-8). 03:17:33 sooo who's works with binary trees in scheme 03:18:01 Edwin doesn't handle Unicode text, however. I'm not sure how xscheme.el will interact with it, but it might work OK. 03:18:09 *synx* hides 03:22:56 schme, and also the reader (i.e. S-expression parser) generally won't accept non-Latin-1 input. 03:24:21 abrakadabra 03:24:43 sooo sladegen want to abrakadabra this binary tree ;) 03:24:58 nop 03:27:17 Riastradh: I'll try that out. Too bad about the non-Latin-1 stuff though. 03:27:52 Riastradh: Ah! Much nice! 03:29:25 Is there some scheme that indeed has a reader that accepts the full unicode range as input? 03:30:08 Depends on whaty ou mean by `accept'. 03:30:49 `What you mean', even. 03:31:40 Alright, sleep time. 03:32:04 There are many, many code points in Unicode. It's easy to handle the subset of US-ASCII always used by Scheme, but that's a tiny subset of the code points you might be accepting. 03:32:21 Well how about if I wanted to write my scheme using hiragana instead of ascii? 03:32:31 schme: plt scheme has full unicode support in the reader i believe 03:32:47 johnnowak: I'll take a look at that. 03:32:59 Well anyway. Thanks for all the help there. 03:33:02 *schme* heads off to work 03:34:10 I don't remember offhand whether the R6RS specifies the interpretation of code points relative to Unicode's classification of them, or whether it lists specific sets of code points, or whether it leaves large gaps in the set of code points that could be found in Unicode text. 03:34:55 YES 03:34:56 i have size 03:35:25 NaNO2x: nice; link? 03:36:10 NaNO2x annotated #67817 with "binary tree size function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67817#2 03:42:14 NaNO2x: reminiscent of SICP; but it does the trick 03:42:16 good job 03:42:27 eyah now to do the other functions 03:42:36 good luck 03:42:38 i was staring at the sicp answer and i was like oh i see what they did there 03:46:21 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 03:48:29 like ceiling cat? 03:49:08 damn, building PLT seems to take longer and longer. Maybe my computer is getting slower 03:49:46 offby1: actually, time is slowing down; but you're not 03:50:07 it explains why mediocrity is a political virtue 03:50:15 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 03:52:08 and why the "cheesesteak" I got from Quiznos was also mediocre? 03:53:04 indeed; and the lengthening of syllables in Quuiiznoos 03:53:15 maybe it's a political cheesesteak 03:53:24 maybe it's a nucular cheesesteak 03:53:49 (sic) 03:54:04 that would be an awesome cheesesteak though, not a mediocre one... 03:56:37 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:58:30 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-7-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:59:16 synx: it depends whether you're talking about the seeds of a nuculanium, though, or the oogonium of a charophyte. 04:00:49 ha, botany joke :> 04:01:11 now you know what palin's talking about, at least ;) 04:05:10 so klutometis is there a way to break? 04:05:20 like i want to return true if an item is found 04:06:33 right now if it's the first or last item it works 04:06:37 but not other items 04:09:06 offby1: Quizno's is good for everything but cheesesteaks. for that, you need to go to Philly. 04:09:14 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 04:10:23 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176208013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:11:51 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176220062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:13:54 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-9-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:15 NaNO2x: there's a thing called call-with-current-continuation 04:14:30 but if you thought our little mutation exercise was bad, try callcc ;) 04:14:33 *synx* hides 04:14:34 haha 04:14:39 yeah... 04:14:45 lemme paste this code in a min 04:14:48 because it's ALMOST working 04:14:52 on the other hand, you'll be hailed as a demigod by your prof if you can crack it, i'm sure 04:21:59 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:49 nowhereman [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 04:31:43 NaNO2x annotated #67817 with "Binary Functions" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67817#3 04:31:50 ok 04:31:56 so contains and isBST aren't working 04:32:01 i can feel them they are close 04:32:30 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:36:10 nice; by the way, your functions would be more readable if you used some indentation 04:36:31 yeah... 04:36:33 sorry bout that 04:36:37 this is like the first assignment 04:37:16 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:37:30 but yeah, so for the contains if it finds it it returns true fine but then it tries to recurse on the other side and returns false 04:37:48 i need it to find true and then not keep looking or something 04:37:55 i think i have a similar problem on isbst 04:40:04 OceanSpray [n=karl@128.2.148.29] has joined #scheme 04:41:11 so any ideas/ 04:41:36 NaNO2x: yeah, one sec 04:41:44 np 04:41:45 thanks 04:44:34 NaNO2x: can you give me the example you're using? 04:44:58 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.138.99] has joined #scheme 04:45:14 (contains 2 '(1 (2 () ()) (3 () ()))) 04:46:04 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:55:27 klutometis annotated #67817 with "this works -- but there's probably a simpler way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67817#4 04:55:56 NaNO2x: yeah, sorry, man; i had to dig deep with some esoteric stuff 04:56:31 i'm sure there's something simpler; but if you can figure this one out, you're prof will surely love you 04:56:38 your* 04:56:48 yeah 04:56:51 and what about hte isbst 04:56:53 it shows you how to do a return, in any case 04:58:20 if you figure out contains, you'll figure that one out, too; whether you use the one i pasted, or something simpler 04:58:34 they have the same structure 04:58:37 yeah 04:58:59 i'll try to think about it and see if i can't find something more elegant 04:59:11 keep me posted if you solve it some other way 04:59:27 kk 04:59:29 thanks 04:59:36 because i'd like to not use lambda and stuff 04:59:39 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:59:57 I think if you indented your code like klutometis' example, we'd be able to help you more easily 05:00:12 NaNO2x: oh, try this, too: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-16.html#%_idx_2144 05:00:15 well let me post that formatted one sec 05:00:31 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 05:00:37 they're doing search in BSTs, but it should be similar for your case 05:00:38 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:01:14 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-4-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 05:01:55 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 05:02:46 wtf are you doing anyway NaNO2x? 05:03:06 just building the functions for a binary tree in scheme 05:03:23 Um... but a binary tree for organizing what data? 05:03:36 just numbers in this case 05:03:46 hmm that would work quite well for a bst 05:04:03 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@151.204.138.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:04:04 I'd abstract out the data structure myself, and just have a magic sorted list... 05:04:17 the data structure is abstracted 05:04:24 In case a heap sort would work better, or a trie. 05:04:31 its for hw 05:04:46 what hardware? 05:05:43 homework? 05:05:49 ohh 05:06:08 :P 05:06:09 yeah, I can see that as lacking in application then. 05:06:12 yeah 05:06:16 objective: impress the prof 05:06:25 i have yet to see where scheme has an application outside of ai 05:06:47 NaNO2x: i've used it for years for military and health contracts 05:06:52 non-ai 05:06:54 it doesn't even have an application in AI; Norvig's new book uses python 05:07:14 I'm working on making a tidy sort of async network framework in scheme. And then a web server and an email server and a pony and... <3 05:07:34 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-138-99.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:07:40 yeah, i've used python for ai 05:07:53 stuff python can't do though, like...call/cc... 05:07:54 aspect: iRobot uses CL and Scheme IIRC 05:07:55 *synx* hides 05:08:06 irobot == a form of ai 05:08:14 really dumb AI 05:08:15 but yeah 05:08:35 then again all AI is relatively pretty dumb. 05:08:42 synx: yeah, your async stuff from earlier looks really good , actually 05:09:53 ELIZA 05:12:02 NaNO2x: ask an Eliza bot about how well her testicles are doing, and you'll see how smart AI is. 05:13:04 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 05:14:05 also, is your nick Sodium Nitrous Oxide or Not A Number Oxygen x? 05:14:16 i gotsa know. 05:14:25 sarahbot: how are your testes? 05:14:50 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 05:15:02 Sodium Nitrite X 05:15:07 because i needed 6 chars 05:15:12 ah 05:16:32 you're a cure for cyanide apparently 05:17:17 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-7-195.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:38 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:17:41 gah 05:17:43 i need to fix this 05:17:47 like < 1 hour 05:18:06 python has too much boilerplate for me. can't abstract certain things out of it, so you have to type them over, and over... 05:18:07 that and I'm banned from #python lol 05:18:10 *synx* has had a good time so far though, with all the nice people here 05:20:31 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:20:38 klutometis: I hope so. It's really complicated to build a multi-protocol server, so it's got to have pretty tight logic. 05:23:37 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 05:23:51 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 05:27:30 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-21-122.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 05:34:18 Is there support in scheme for global contexts? Like, a stack of a list of global variables that can get set, but then returned to their old value. 05:34:30 s/global/module level/ 05:35:34 Not hard to implement I guess. Questionable if it's needed at all of course. 05:40:54 There is very little in generic Scheme. Your implementation may support same under the name of parameters, fluid-let, or dynamic scope. 05:41:46 yep, PLT got them parameters, uh huh. Some folks calls it a sling blade. 05:42:50 You may call it parameters, but my people call it maize. 05:44:09 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 05:45:45 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-4-213.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:50 -!- ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Client Quit] 05:49:30 ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has joined #scheme 05:49:56 -!- ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Client Quit] 05:54:39 ricky [n=ricky@fedora/ricky] has joined #scheme 05:55:11 -!- sonderma` [n=user@123-236-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.0.1 $Revision: 1.726.2.3 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:04:54 sondermann [n=user@123-236-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:06 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@128.2.148.29] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:18:55 -!- samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:43 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:26:10 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 06:36:31 wow.. I feel incredibly stupid.. I just can't wrap my head around SICP's procedure->painter code... all it is: (define foo (procedure->painter (lambda (x y) (* x y)))) I try calling it and every time I do it return errors.. (paint foo), (paint (foo 10 25)) etc... 06:36:43 anyone got a second to briefly explain this one? 06:40:26 just can't shake my head of C-style pointers... I understand, or at least I can get number->painter to work.. and I understand transform-painter... but procedure->painter is throwing me for a loop 06:42:19 whats paint 06:44:25 is this the part you don't understand? Then to plot a point p in the target frame, we find the inverse image 06:44:25 T^-1(p) of p under the transformation that maps the unit square to the 06:44:25 target, and find the value of f at T-1(p). 06:46:03 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:49:05 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:50:24 mmc [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has joined #scheme 06:54:32 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 06:54:46 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:08 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 06:59:41 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:03:38 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 07:03:44 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:14 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 07:16:18 jonrafkind, I'm not sure what was confusing about my question... thank you for your time - all that is confusing to me the (procedure->painter (lambda (x y) (* x y)))) code, specifically "procedure->painter" 07:17:11 well you seem to have it.. its a function that accepts a procedure and returns a new painter object 07:17:40 how do I use it? every time I go to use I get varying errors 07:17:47 ok whats the first error 07:18:03 i haven't used painter myself, although I could check the source but I notice they dont tell you the arity of the procedure to pass in 07:18:08 'missing argument, take 3', missing argument takes 2, 'procedure not defined' 07:18:19 but its probably x,y since its finding something about a point.. 07:18:32 which painter are you using btw 07:18:37 im looking at the code on PLT's planet 07:19:01 using sicp.ss 2.1 07:20:03 what you have seems right, since the example code uses the same form: (define diagonal-shading 07:20:03 (procedure->painter (lambda (x y) (* 100 (+ x y))))) 07:20:06 say I define this: (define foo (procedure->painter (lambda (x y) (* x y)))), how I call it? (paint foo 3 4) where 3 is x and 4 is y? this doesn't work tho 07:20:31 from what I gather you give the paint method a frame and a painter 07:20:36 or, ((paint foo) 3 4) doesn't work either 07:20:38 so you have to construct the frame with (make-frame) right 07:21:10 (make-frame 0 3 4) 07:21:36 sure ok... so maybe (paint (foo (make-frame 0 3 4))) ? 07:22:06 hmm I think thats closer.. im looking at the examples some more 07:22:18 "car expects argument of type " 07:22:27 hehe, the most awesome scheme error 07:23:00 given 0 07:23:01 :) 07:23:42 yes so you were right, procedure->painter returns a lambda that accepts a frame 07:24:24 and proc definately takes an x,y pair 07:24:29 i mean arity is 2 07:24:53 arity ? 07:24:59 number of arguments 07:25:01 oh.. parity 07:25:04 no, arity 07:25:15 parity is completely different 07:25:22 arity? ok that's a first.. I'll have to look that up 07:25:37 never seen it explained like that before :) 07:25:52 ok, so how would call it ? 07:25:54 put this into your repl 07:25:56 (procedure-arity (lambda (x) x)) 07:25:58 it should say 1 07:26:08 assuming you have that procedure.. 07:26:39 http://planet.plt-scheme.org/package-source/soegaard/sicp.plt/2/1/test.ss 07:26:39 don't have it... complains that it's undefined 07:26:51 if you look at the bottom of that page you can see the example as you wrote it almost 07:26:57 (paint (procedure->painter (lambda (x y) (* 255 x y)))) 07:27:01 that should work.. 07:27:34 ah, I see 07:27:39 I was so close... dammit 07:28:33 so painter has the definitions of what it passes then? I mean, it knows the values of x and y? 07:29:00 no.. paint just uses this inline procedure... 07:29:25 right, it applies the procedure to some internal points along the way 07:29:30 because if you think: (paint "some-image.gif") and compare... 07:30:47 nope.. I had that wrong.. (paint some-image-loaded-into-a-frame) 07:30:56 thanks jonrafkind ! 07:31:11 no problem 07:31:19 now its way passed my bedtime.. goodnight 07:37:37 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 07:39:56 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 07:41:39 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 07:42:17 anyone has an idea why (string->date "2003335" "~Y~j") and (string->date "2003 335" "~Y ~j") does not work? 07:42:32 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has left #scheme 07:42:44 oh, now i realize 07:46:39 sjamaan_ [n=sjamaan@80.101.127.174] has joined #scheme 07:49:32 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless167.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:05 Because there were only 334 days in 2003. 07:59:33 -!- sjamaan [n=sjamaan@frohike.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:17 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:59 offby1` [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 08:29:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:32:46 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:33:32 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:33:52 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-26-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 08:35:55 Armon [n=armon@58.207.152.246] has joined #scheme 08:42:30 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:46:04 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-21-122.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:46:12 -!- Armon [n=armon@58.207.152.246] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:47:06 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:48:26 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:50:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:02 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 08:54:09 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:57:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 08:59:01 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@221.234.213.98] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:00:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:03:49 foof: is that really your understanding? 09:03:57 foof: mine is that string->date does not support ~j. 09:04:02 foof: what do you think? 09:04:41 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:04:57 Well, I've tried SICP for learning the basics of coding 09:06:18 logite: aha? 09:06:40 Aha? As in "I've learned to code!" aha? 09:06:45 Quite the contrary 09:06:49 That book is a bitch :( 09:06:57 logite: personally i agree. 09:07:05 logite: do you know any programming languages already? 09:07:08 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 09:07:11 Exercise 1.3.  Define a procedure that takes three numbers as arguments and returns the sum of the squares of the two larger numbers. 09:07:13 Come ON :( 09:07:26 For the 3rd exercise? REALLY? 09:07:31 logite: or is your aim to get some introductory coding experiences? 09:07:38 logite: you think that is too difficult or too simple? 09:07:55 This is my first introduction to coding 09:08:03 aha 09:08:11 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 09:08:11 then it is too difficult, it hink. 09:08:20 That exercise seems WAY over my head 09:08:29 my best bet would be that you need someone who knows coding already, who can give you a conceptual understanding 09:08:40 No books to recommend? 09:08:44 logite: and, you need someone who you can pass your questions. 09:08:52 I'd hate to bother someone to repeat something that's already been wrote 09:08:59 logite: there was one book i read to learn scheme, that i thought was great because it was so mechanistic, 09:09:10 logite: though i had years of experience already i must admit. 09:09:21 though it was written by a CS professor for his classes. 09:09:34 To be honest, as of right now 09:09:40 ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/cs345/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html 09:09:46 I simply want to figure out if coding is something I'd enjoy 09:10:03 ok 09:10:04 The challenges up to exercise 1.3 in SICP were enthralling 09:10:12 I don't know how that compares to real coding though 09:10:51 enthrall, in the positive sense you mean? 09:11:01 Captivating, to say the least 09:11:07 oh, that's sweet, right? 09:11:14 It's good, yes 09:12:06 i think the difference between school book coding and real coding, is that in real coding, you have a practical purpose, either one you came up with yourself, or one to fill a purpose in a broader context. 09:12:45 Recently, I must admit the financial possibilities of coding have been in my peripheral vision 09:13:07 ..school book coding is more like school math excercises, there's a certain level of amusement they usually don't exceed. 09:13:07 With the economy the way it is, I need something to put on my resume 09:13:16 ok 09:13:27 i would propose that if you want to get into coding, then really go for it 09:13:36 it's not that difficult, but it requires precision 09:13:40 and that takes time to develop 09:13:49 Well, I wouldn't be able to continue doing something that I didn't enjoy 09:13:55 right 09:14:03 so, check the book i recommended you out 09:14:11 then, get a Scheme environment where you can do practical things 09:14:18 Whatever I do, if the passion isn't there to begin with I just cut it off 09:14:25 such as painting on the screen, giving textual output to the console, making TCP/IP connections over the internet 09:14:31 right 09:14:38 An environment? 09:14:54 Interpreter? 09:15:16 a development environment usually includes some of the components interpreter, compiler, libraries, an editor. 09:15:43 I have MIT/GNU Scheme on Ubuntu 09:15:55 as for interpreter/compiler, you have ample of choices, for instance PLT, Gambit, Ikarus, Chicken, MIT, right 09:16:10 ..MzScheme, Bigloo, etc. etc. 09:16:25 ..SISC, to hook it up with Java 09:17:16 I don't understand what you're talking about 09:17:19 ah 09:17:42 i was trying to say to you, that you need an interpreter/compiler, an editor, and then some library software using which you can do some practical things 09:17:54 such as network access, graphics, etc. 09:18:00 What are the purposes of each? 09:18:13 just get your own experimental environment up, and you should be able to grasp a lot of programming concepts reasonably fast. 09:18:26 you mean, of interpreter/compiler, editor, libraries ? 09:18:33 & environment 09:18:43 oh 09:19:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 09:19:12 think about programming environment in the same way as you think about the physical environment around you. 09:19:30 to live, you need water, food, air, clothing, friends, etc. . 09:19:45 to do software, you need a compiler/interpreter, an editor, and libraries. 09:20:18 there's more peripheral things too, such as, it may be of your interest to run your software atop a particular operating system, 09:20:35 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-104-91-60.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:20:44 because different operating systems reward different kinds of software 09:21:41 for instance, Unices such as BSD and Linux are generally very good to run server software, and I would say academic software on, and Windows does a pretty good job for running graphical user interfaces on. 09:21:41 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:30 are you with me? 09:22:42 I still don't know what an environment is 09:23:12 programming environment = the things you utilize to do coding 09:23:25 to do coding, you need to type things into your computer. that's an editor. 09:23:37 then you need to get the things you typed execute. that's an interpreter/compiler. 09:23:59 then you need to benefit from functionality you didn't write yourself, that's what libraries and operating system are about. 09:24:28 see? 09:26:44 examples of editor are Emacs, VIM, windows Notepad, Eclipse. 09:26:53 Something different: can I synthesize function identifiers (using string operations) within syntax-rules? This is a real question. 09:27:11 examples of operating systems are Linux such as Debian Linux, Mac OS X and Windows. 09:27:28 Logit1 [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:27:40 logit1: disconnected? 09:27:44 copy paste everything after you explained what an editor was 09:28:02 -!- Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:28:24 got it? 09:29:03 ah, that clarifies things 09:29:20 this summarizes what a programming environment is. 09:29:35 BW^-: which graphical user interfaces do you run on windows? How many? 09:29:38 other examlpes of programming environments would be PHP with Apache, type code in VIM, and run it atop Linux. 09:29:47 sodermann: putty to linux. :-) 09:30:05 putty is a gui? 09:30:10 oh right, not. 09:30:15 sodermann: except that windows crashes all the time, i really enjoy it for browsing the web 09:30:21 though mac os does that better 09:30:51 in my experience windows does not crash that often. 09:30:57 agreed 09:31:11 only about onece in three months or so. 09:31:12 from a non-coder perspective 09:31:23 logit1: what i sometimes feel misses in programming teaching, is practical connection. 09:31:26 do you code on windows? 09:32:06 sondermann: currently yes, a debian virtualbox atop windows. 09:32:10 Anyone on the identifier/syntax-rules question? 09:32:20 i'm strung out right now 09:32:38 that gives you another gui on top of windows? 09:32:40 room is 85*F 09:32:54 sondermann: the lenovo x61 tablet has the market's highest screen resolution for 1.5KG laptops. 09:32:55 tired, but not sleepy 09:33:08 logit1: so i propose, as soon as you can, write your own HTTP client, 09:33:19 why? 09:33:21 to view webpages? 09:33:23 use your programming environment to send an email manualy 09:33:38 Oh, I have no problem viewing web pages 09:33:40 interface other software 09:33:58 I still can't make the connection of a "programming environment" 09:34:07 I don't understand the concept, should I say 09:34:13 ok 09:34:18 so 09:34:35 are you aware of the concept of programming is about telling a computer what to do, and then see it do that? 09:35:25 yup 09:35:28 good. 09:36:03 nanothief [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has joined #scheme 09:39:48 barney [n=bernhard@p549A0525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:40:16 then, now please give me suggestions on a) how you tell the computer what to do, b) by what means you see it do that, and c) how you get it do anything useful (such as a clickable button, connect to the network, access a file) 09:42:34 you'd need an editor as well as an interpreter/compiler 09:42:42 good. 09:42:46 wait, what about c? 09:42:47 c)? 09:43:01 in part that is solved by the interpreter/compiler in itself, but not fully 09:43:03 i was only answering the first one 09:43:09 oh 09:43:10 ok 09:43:13 guess i got 2 birds with one stone :) 09:43:32 and i'm guessing the library would cover some functions 09:43:37 that you described 09:43:58 there's no "the library". 09:44:01 the world is full of libraries. 09:44:15 *a* library 09:44:16 :) 09:44:41 good. 09:44:49 i believe i have the concept down 09:44:51 do you see the concept of a development environment now? 09:44:54 good. 09:45:00 now, for your reference, go check some typical libraries out. 09:45:09 for Scheme, just review the SRFI:s. 09:45:18 also, see the SSAX SXML homepage. 09:45:41 http://chicken.wiki.br/Eggs%20Unlimited%203 gives an example of a listing of libraries for a Scheme environment as well. 09:45:56 these three give you an impression of what libraries typicall do. 09:46:09 this is too confusing 09:46:19 ah 09:46:30 ok 09:46:31 i dunno, maybe coding isn't for me 09:46:45 if you're at day one now, for sure you have reason to be a little bit confused. 09:47:04 for instance, i was confused about programming for months after i first started 09:47:11 things will clarify pretty quick. 09:47:39 in general i would say that the best thing you can do about programming, is give it your hours. 09:47:58 -!- Logit1 [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:48:26 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:48:55 so i'm at a crossroad here 09:49:36 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 09:49:56 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:16 -!- nanothief_ [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:27 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 09:54:39 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 09:56:26 logite: how do you mean? 09:57:33 i'm at the point where i want to learn, but i don't know if I have enough motivation 09:58:04 logite: the amount of expertise you gain stands in proportion of the automotivation you do. 09:58:21 right, but here's how i get motivated 09:58:30 i work on something, i see some payoff 09:58:31 i think what you just said - want to learn but don't have motivation - is a kind of case that doesn't exist 09:58:35 right 09:58:55 when i learned programming introductorily, i made things i thought were interesting 09:59:08 such as administrative software and computer games, pretty simple but nice. 09:59:30 where should i start? 09:59:38 put up a simple goal 09:59:39 i think 09:59:46 what would you think would be fun to do? 10:00:08 btw, please tell more about yourself, what age are you, do you have related education? 10:00:57 i guess making a game would be rewarding 10:01:21 ok 10:02:15 do you have any idea of a particular game you would like to program? 10:02:53 perhaps you would take something really simple. 10:03:19 elmex [n=elmex@e180066037.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 10:03:45 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:13 logite: i think if i was you, i would do a minesweeper or a hangman 10:04:16 or a guess the number 10:04:43 after that you can do a sidescroll 10:04:44 sounds stupid, but whatever works 10:04:51 how do you mean stupid? 10:04:53 how would i get started doing that? 10:05:21 i have an idea. start with a "guess the number" game. 10:05:24 make it text-based. 10:05:39 that would do for a good introductory programming excercise. 10:05:46 i still have no idea where to start 10:06:03 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-234-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 10:06:40 hm 10:06:56 i can't just open up MIT/GNU Scheme and start making anything I want 10:07:03 if you want to, and think it would help you, i could show you how to build one right before your eyes. 10:07:17 That doesn't sound like it'd teach me much 10:07:25 hm. 10:07:26 Aside from how to make a guess the number game :) 10:07:39 at least i learn a lot from simple examples. 10:08:30 i think for an introduction, you need to learn how to do simple expressions, how to declare variables, and how to declare and execute procedures, at a basic level. 10:09:08 when you know that, all you need to do is attach some "real world access" functions such as "output text on the screen" and "read an answer from the keyboard" to your code, and voillas, you got a number guessing game. :) 10:09:43 You're telling me to kill the loch ness without telling me where she is 10:09:44 are you familiar with any of the concepts how to do simple expressions, how to declare variables, and how to declare and execute procedures, at a basic level? 10:10:04 i think the best way to start learning a language is learning some phrases. 10:10:11 then add grammar to it, and vocabulary. 10:10:15 Okay.. 10:10:25 are you familiar with those three concepts? 10:10:37 Not sure 10:10:39 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:41 ok 10:10:51 can you please tell me what you know about those three concepts? 10:11:09 how do you mean, You're telling me to kill the loch ness without telling me where she is 10:11:10 ? 10:11:26 Just an analogy, no worries 10:11:35 brb 10:11:48 in order to learn something, you need to have a short moment of non-control, i think. :) 10:18:11 mornin 10:18:17 heya 10:18:34 logite wants to learn programming. 10:19:14 elf: please do not torment happy fun Logite with BF 10:19:39 logite: so how about the three concepts? 10:19:46 maybe HTDP is the way to go for Logite 10:19:58 htdp? 10:20:12 BW^-: http://www.htdp.org/ 10:20:30 BW^-: a beginners book on programming, using scheme as language 10:20:49 How beginner :) 10:21:06 Beginner as in "just learned what an argument was" beginner? 10:21:30 leonidas: my experience is that in order to get going, you need some interactivity with someone who knows dev already. 10:21:56 leonidas: someone who ignites the capacity of starting to learn on you own in you 10:22:13 Logite: beginner as in "Read this and find out whether it fits you": http://www.htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-5.html#node_chap_2 10:22:55 logite: now that you have these two book references, do you want to spend some time on them, or do you want us to continue our conversation? 10:23:01 BW^-: yeah, maybe - but people knowing Scheme are rare here, not sure about the frieds of Logite 10:23:22 leonidas: right. another book is always a good thing. 10:23:27 adamant: BF? 10:23:44 elf: brainfsck? 10:23:49 heh 10:24:23 BW^-: I agree that it is important to have a mentor. But when your mentor doesn't speak Scheme or Lisp, it's an unfortunate idea to start with that. 10:24:27 bw^-: reason why ~j doesnt work is because ~j is a date->string interpreted escape, not a string->date interpreted escape :) 10:24:47 I'm not sure what I want to do 10:24:53 I suppose I'll give reading that book a shot 10:25:04 What do you mean by two though, I've only received one book reference 10:25:11 hrm? 10:25:26 whats going on? 10:25:40 Logite: A good way for starting is (in my experience) just thinking about a (small!) program and try to write it. 10:25:45 logite: you got ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage/cs345/schintro-v14/schintro_toc.html 10:25:52 At least thats what I do :) 10:25:58 then what leonidas passed 10:26:06 elf: right 10:26:06 what i'm saying is 10:26:23 i can't do anything programming wise besides adding 2 numbers or defining something 10:26:30 and ? 10:26:41 whats the problem with that? 10:26:48 elf: .. 10:26:51 so if i thought about making a 2d sidescroller 10:26:59 i wouldn't exactly be able to do that 10:27:02 logite: that's a great idea. 10:27:05 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:27:07 you need to learn baby steps before you can learn to run. 10:27:12 youre not even at crawl stage yet. 10:27:18 right 10:27:21 that's what i'm trying to learn 10:27:25 logite: right. 10:27:39 and making games is rather hard. 10:27:40 are you trying to learn programming, or are you trying ot learn to write 2d sidescrollers? 10:27:41 logite: i think a good next quest for you is to learn and practice those three concepts i mentioned at a basic level. 10:27:53 leonidas: i wouldn't say making 2D games is hard. 10:27:56 i'm not sure what the hell i'm trying to learn 10:28:05 if youre trying to learn to write 2d sidescrollers, youve already failed, such a thing is not possible. 10:28:12 if youre trying to learn programming, well... 10:28:13 i guess i'm trying to learn is if programming is right for me 10:28:36 logite: that's both the right approach and not the right approach. 10:28:37 the greater part of learning programming is learning how to think through the components of a problem, and to have the patience to do so. 10:28:44 logite: i think you kind of give yourself that answer. 10:29:11 the syntax and semantics of any given language are almost irrelevant. 10:29:40 the advantage to something like sicp is that it tries to help walk through the steps of building more complex concepts from simpler ones. 10:29:40 BW^-: IMO the problem with games is that it is hard to structure the program so that the game can be extended without huge pain. 10:29:55 leonidas: get your point 10:30:21 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-26-39.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:37 games are a special, very difficult case of applications, for a multitude of reasons, and are not especially relevant to learning how to code. 10:31:03 They give a good motivation, though :-) 10:31:07 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:31:07 not really. 10:31:20 unless youre referring to old infocom games :) 10:31:27 to master the art, it could be a good thing 10:31:34 Ok, sorry 10:31:38 They give a good motivation to some people, though :-) 10:31:39 ie you need to control the GC, memory movements, have structure correct etc 10:31:49 forcer: I think they do motivate 10:32:05 forcer: I started Python some years ago, because of pygame. 10:32:07 bw^-: thats the least of the problems of game coding. try sound and video sync vs responsiveness. 10:32:20 ehhe right 10:32:46 getting all the structures and whatnot correct is easy. optimising it so that its playable is an entirely different matter. 10:33:04 And then you still don't have an enjoyable game :-) 10:33:28 what i recently wondered about, for example with syntax-case, is: what if i call call/cc in a fender? what semantic does it have? is macro expansion and transcription done in the same environment i do my eval? or isn't that neccessary? 10:34:02 forcer: my rationale for mentioning infocom games as an exception, regarding being good motivators, is that infocom games are in many ways like programming: you have a good parser interpreting your commands to figure out puzzles of varying complexity, solved generally by combining simple things you built into more complex ones. plus they were written in MDL :) 10:34:03 Logite: do you have any friends or so, with programming experience? 10:35:12 logite: take the problem youre stuck on, problem 1.3. so you have 3 numbers. how do you find the two biggest? 10:35:23 then given that, how do you square a number? 10:35:30 elf: There is a difference between something that motivates and something that has a lot of benefical learning parts. 10:35:30 then given that, how do you add numbers? 10:35:37 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-33-124.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 10:36:07 forcer: i would argue that the general mode of gameplay nowadays is not good, as it motivates the wrong sorts of things. 10:36:22 (The learning step of that exercise was "don't try to think too complicated" for me ;-)) 10:36:49 forcer: as well as reinforcing the idea that you just have to hit something hard enough and you win, rather than trying to figure things out. 10:37:08 elf: Possibly. I didn't say "games motivate good learning", I said "games motivate people" 10:37:41 forcer: this begs the question if these are the types of people who should be motivated in the direction of programming. 10:38:23 elf: Dunno. I like them more than people who think they are better than others because of their preferences, but that's of course very subjective. 10:38:40 im not saying anyone is better or worse than anyone else. 10:39:01 i am stating that there are certain mindsets conducive to being a good programmer. 10:39:05 No, you said "people like that should not be motivated in the direction of programming" 10:39:25 And I think people with that mindset should not be motivated to be people :-) 10:39:27 no, i said 'this begs the question if these are the types of people who should be motivated in the direction of programming' 10:39:45 i did not say people like should or should not do anything. 10:40:08 It's called "implication", something natural language has, and programming languages shouldn't :-) 10:40:08 xwl [n=user@221.221.154.113] has joined #scheme 10:40:21 logite: ? 10:40:22 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:40:40 no, its called 'your incorrect and incomplete interpretation of what i said before i was finished explaining anything' 10:41:20 *forcer* smiles. 10:41:34 If you say so. Please, continue explaining the begging there :-) 10:42:46 i am stating that there are certain mindsets conducive to being a good programmer. i am further stating that the mindset of gamers and coders is generally incompatible. i am recalling, specifically, my own experience, and the experiences of others observed, in coding MUDs vs playing MUDs. 10:44:16 In the simplest terms, regardless of the reason someone progresses at programming, via different motivational impulses, any experience with new territory for students to learn is beneficial in it's own right. 10:44:33 i would argue that gamers who enjoy and are motivated by 'gaming' games, rather than playing games, are more likely to have mindsets conducive to coding. 10:44:55 *elf* whacks logite with a stick. 10:45:00 have you been whacked with a stick before? 10:45:28 was it new territory? how beneficial was it? 10:47:59 (also, motivation is only part of progress. one does not progress by motivation alone.) 10:48:41 But sure he doesn't without it 10:48:59 I was lucky to have the natural inclinations and gifts to progress quickly with guitar. I'm not the best or most gifted guitarist, but I enjoy it and the enlightenment I've received from learning all different scales as well as me from how to learn things more fluidly and easily 10:49:41 logite: i sent you privmsgs. 10:49:47 Alright fuck it, I'm way to high to be explaining these basic principles 10:49:47 too* 10:49:48 There goes trying to multitask 10:49:51 Jesus. 10:50:11 youre stoned right now? 10:50:13 lovely. 10:50:24 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:50:45 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 10:51:07 logite: if you want to learn programming, i think a kind of love to the art of it is beneficial 10:51:18 "lovely." hahahahaha 10:51:28 okay then mr. brit 10:54:10 suit you, sir 10:54:11 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:54:23 mornin xtl. 10:54:28 morning, elf 10:54:46 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 10:55:07 trying to work out a threading concept that looks or feels natural in scheme is unpleasant. 10:55:15 hows you? 10:57:53 if multiple-object locks werent necessary, it would be a completely different sitch. 10:57:56 *elf* mutters. 10:58:22 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:00:07 elf: Termite? or no 11:00:39 adamant: termite is more for distributed than single-machine threading, yes? 11:01:25 elf: well, if you're trying to do real shared memory stuff then you don't want Termite. 11:01:52 but if you're trying to work with multiple cores Termite should be fine 11:02:40 adamant: some of the concepts in termite are useful, but its not what im looking for. i was fleshing out two ideas that i had, but one of them seems inelegant and the other cant handle multiple locking without deadlock possibility. 11:03:02 elf: cool 11:03:33 i really like the second, except for the multiple-lock issue. 11:03:50 hrm. 11:04:40 maybe if we add region blocks with some restrictions... 11:04:50 glarg. 11:05:06 elf: STM? 11:05:11 STM is closer. :) 11:05:20 ah 11:05:27 well as long as you know the happs 11:05:32 happs? 11:05:38 happenings 11:05:49 not HappS 11:06:01 the web programming thing 11:06:05 many people have been very helpful with giving me references to existing works. 11:06:27 never heard of either usage of the character sequence 'happs' 11:06:29 elf: I think some Bothans might have died for that information 11:06:35 bothans ? 11:06:51 elf: Star Wars and internet meme 11:07:04 adamant: no clue what youre talking about, sorry :( 11:07:18 it's a TRAP 11:07:24 Poeir_ [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:07:56 elf: in one of the first three Star Wars movies, a admiral says something to the effect of "Many Bothans Died To Bring Us This Information" 11:08:24 so this has become a popular interweb meme 11:08:31 -!- Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:08:42 adamant: first 3 made, you mean? or first 3 in number order? 11:08:46 especially because the same admiral also said "It's A Trap!" 11:08:50 first 3 made 11:08:57 im not big into the whole star wars thing. i rather dislike star wars, tbh. 11:09:01 which is another popular interweb meme 11:09:03 the 4th 11:09:05 i see. 11:09:34 so people just say it randomly and its meant to be funny, or ? 11:09:40 elf: yes. 11:09:43 i see. :) 11:09:52 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 11:09:56 well, the fact you brought up information 11:10:08 i think the last internet meme that i was aware of or paid any attention to was the 'all your base' thing. 11:10:10 star war is childish... even the 3rd part seemed too contrived, but i was 10 something when i saw it ;) 11:10:20 and the fact it's all the current SOTA in parallel and concurrency and stuffs 11:10:22 i didnt see star wars until i was 17. 11:10:36 it was not impressive. 11:10:47 heh 11:10:51 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 11:11:11 sladegen: George Lucas must have destroyed your childhood as well 11:11:20 give me bladerunner or more information! 11:11:24 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 11:11:34 didnt see bladerunner until my twenties. :) 11:11:52 omg 11:12:00 am i right that the continuation i get by calling call/cc in a syntax-case fender depends highly on the fact whether the macro is expanded at a seperate 'compile time' or at 'run time' ? 11:12:12 well SVGA really ruined my childchood.... 11:12:32 why, sladegen? 11:13:03 descent, wolfenstein... 11:13:12 i remember descent. 11:13:17 and your lieben 11:13:20 whatever that is 11:13:31 it was the only 3d game that didnt make me motion sick. 11:13:36 still is, i think. 11:13:52 I'm surprised Descent was the one that didn't make you motion sick. 11:14:02 probably cause it was 6dof 3d, so its true 3d, which i can orient in. 11:14:08 I would think it would be worse than a regular game 11:14:33 whereas wolfensheim was 3d images with planar movement, which i couldnt handle. 11:14:46 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-222-133-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:15:04 most '3d games' are '3d graphics with 2d motion' which makes me ill. 11:15:05 wolves scent? ihr lieben? 11:15:23 dont know why. 11:15:25 ? 11:15:35 sondermann: mein lieben 11:15:49 is what the Nazis yell when they get shot in Wolfenstein 3D 11:15:52 mein leben 11:16:11 mein lieben means nothing 11:16:17 ah 11:16:26 heh. 11:16:39 meine lieben means 'my dear' (plural) 11:16:47 spelling nazi ;-p 11:17:03 elmex, macros are expanded at compile-time, and you will generally incur nasal demons by using CWCC non-locally within a macro transformer procedure. 11:17:06 they spoke kinda german 11:17:25 nasal demons? 11:17:33 nazal? 11:17:53 *elf* ponders nasal demons. 11:18:15 *sladegen* ponders nosal buggery 11:18:18 *elf* names his next project nasald in honour of riastradh 11:18:26 Riastradh: good, then i finally understood the issues with compile-time expanded macros vs. runtime expanded macros :) 11:25:17 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:26:24 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:06 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 11:35:10 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:42:37 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 11:44:30 oww... these [ ] look ugly in code 11:45:16 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:24 why didn't they use { } anyways, or even mix in < > and what about arbitrary delimiter constructs for lists like perl has, like: list/+ 1 2/ 11:46:12 l/let {[a 1] [b 2]} (display 'l|1 2 3 4|) / 11:47:32 use haskell... 11:47:41 oh, never :) 11:47:56 i just wanted to make clear i'm on the () side 11:51:39 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:53:24 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B43.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:54:11 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:56:39 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:13:29 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:17:06 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.192.74.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:32 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-13-8.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 12:19:23 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 12:20:21 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:22:08 bzzbzz [n=franco@modemcable006.84-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 12:31:09 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.176.88.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 12:31:15 does ssax sxml have a built-in escaping procedure? 12:31:19 i.e. & => & etc. ? 12:31:28 Hmm.. 12:32:08 What, in the scheme world, would I look for if I wanted to build a GUI app that would run on the windows, and the linux, and the os x? 12:32:23 schme: Jazz Scheme. 12:32:34 schme: www.jazzschme.org . gcartier@#gambit is its author. 12:33:38 Ah thanks. I'll take a look at that :) 12:34:04 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-33-124.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:34:08 schme: i'm curious about what you get to. if you feel like, please keep me posted. k ? 12:34:09 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 12:34:25 schme: i've personally played around with the IDE, and i think it's nice. 12:35:10 schme: plt scheme also 12:35:27 BW^-: Ok. I'll keep you posted :) 12:35:27 cubix: can you pass me the URL of a test app? 12:35:40 *schme* looks at the plt scheme. 12:36:26 Hmm.. I think I'll play around a bit with both. 12:37:34 BW^-: there are number of examples in their documentation: http://docs.plt-scheme.org/gui/index.html 12:43:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 12:45:56 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:48:10 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 12:50:30 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has joined #scheme 12:52:30 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:00:21 -!- futilius [n=will@user-0c9hfll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:05 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:03:44 does windows have fork? 13:03:45 not, right? 13:05:13 hemulen [n=hemulen@mb70736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #scheme 13:05:30 -!- sjamaan_ is now known as sjamaan 13:06:12 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:14:07 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:22:18 -!- barney [n=bernhard@p549A0525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:42 -!- forcer [n=forcer@e177139196.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:27:01 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:31:56 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 13:39:49 luz [n=davids@201.19.0.53] has joined #scheme 13:40:48 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B43.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:46:16 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:28 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:50:14 samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 13:58:36 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 14:00:57 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 14:01:39 not. 14:03:57 it has CreateProcess and CreateThread 14:04:00 right? 14:04:19 -!- offby1` is now known as offby1 14:04:34 ya 14:04:40 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:17 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 14:12:12 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:14:27 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:14:40 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #scheme 14:18:50 -!- mmc [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:21:22 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:22:38 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has joined #scheme 14:28:39 impeachgod [n=long@195.64.148.162] has joined #scheme 14:31:39 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-72.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 14:37:10 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 14:39:48 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@mb70736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [] 14:41:11 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-50.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:28 hemulen [n=hemulen@mb70736d0.tmodns.net] has joined #scheme 14:50:16 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:08:14 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:11:18 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-58-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:16:31 arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-207-86.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 15:33:13 geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:33:51 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:43:13 I think CreateProcess has gotten a lot faster on recent version of Windows 15:43:21 but I could be wrong. 15:43:46 I've noticed that a lot of Unix->Windows porting projects aren't as slow as they used to be 15:43:49 -!- geckosenator [n=sean@c-24-8-193-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #scheme 15:46:08 adamant: i think you recommended a scheme book web site earlier today 15:47:18 no, someone else recommended HTDP. I just seconded it. 15:47:57 Adamant: cygwin's fork is still unbearably slow 15:48:20 but bzr still beat that for slowness 15:48:34 leppie: ah. 15:48:58 takes like 10 times longer to do a ./configure in cygwin :( 15:49:03 maybe I'm off then 15:49:21 it could just be cygwin... 15:49:26 You know, when people want book references, they're all in the topic. Maybe we should just point there? :-) 15:49:32 I just noticed that they are all in there already. 15:49:41 i find create proceess to be fast too 15:52:13 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@mb70736d0.tmodns.net] has quit [] 15:53:46 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 15:56:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:50 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-72.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:04:12 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 16:13:30 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:16:13 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:21:06 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:27:39 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 16:33:23 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:34:07 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:02 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:51 OceanSpray [n=karl@LEMON.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 16:52:22 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:53:55 -!- hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:54:36 hemulen [n=hemulen@cpe-069-134-114-252.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:54:58 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:00:57 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #scheme 17:01:11 rushfan [n=rushfan@155.33.149.22] has joined #scheme 17:01:59 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.228] has joined #scheme 17:03:09 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:13:17 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:20:11 -!- qebab [i=finnrobi@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit ["((lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)) `(lambda (lambda) `(,lambda ',lambda)))"] 17:20:53 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:29 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.116] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:37 -!- rushfan [n=rushfan@155.33.149.22] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:23:46 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:23:50 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:25:16 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 17:26:35 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056BFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:19 replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:33:22 replor___ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:34:08 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:36:56 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless314.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:43:14 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:43 ivarrefsdal [n=ivarrefs@sos1-1x-dhcp072.studby.uio.no] has joined #scheme 17:51:27 -!- replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:17 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:00 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.154.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:18 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:56:23 -!- nanothief [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:10 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:57:54 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Success] 17:59:44 BW^-: is JazzScheme real? Not vapor? 18:00:16 -!- replor___ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:00:58 daemmerung: i have binaries here. :) 18:01:09 click click. 18:01:18 Solidified vapor, then. Very good. 18:02:09 gcartier may bless you with a pre-release. 18:02:22 .. copy . 18:03:21 last time i looked it was windos bound... or some such. 18:03:22 I was curious b/c a number of its advertised features are features I've considered hacking into Gambit myself. Not that I have any hack cycles lately. 18:03:41 sladegen: that would make it just like me. 18:03:57 sladegen: it was, though not anymore. 18:04:19 sladegen: uses same multi-platform GUI solution as firefox, and falls back on gambits multiplatform stuff otherwise. 18:04:26 now supports win, mac os x, linux. 18:04:48 *sladegen* nodes: food! 18:07:08 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 18:07:25 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-207-86.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:40 -!- flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:20:53 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:21:15 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 18:26:01 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:30:00 langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 18:31:23 flavioc [n=cruz@217.129.160.175] has joined #scheme 18:32:03 -!- 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[n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 19:41:28 -!- impeachgod [n=long@195.64.148.162] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:05 -!- apgwoz [n=apgwoz@som-somis-50.med.upenn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:15 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:09 AtnNn [n=welcome@74.56.56.230] has joined #scheme 20:12:08 zsh 20:25:06 JazzScheme sounds good 20:34:20 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 20:41:10 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Back in a bit"] 20:43:04 adamant: ask gcartier for a copy 20:43:16 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 20:43:27 BW^-: sorry I have enough I need to be doing right now. :) 20:43:27 gcartier [n=gcartier@modemcable245.1-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 20:43:32 k 20:47:07 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 20:47:40 sodio 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Daemmerung: ping 21:26:00 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176213248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 21:30:24 eli: ping a pong, ping out loud, all day long 21:31:45 JFYI, I've fixed a pretty bad bug in the foreign interface -- one that was very tricky to find and could have been responsible for some segfaults. 21:32:28 (It didn't mark the malloced callback block as executable, which happened to work most of the time because the JIT marks blocks as executables, so most pages are.) 21:32:45 -!- sodio [n=sodio@netblock-63-66-64-29.myitdepartment.net] has quit [] 21:33:13 Cool. I'll pick up the changes this weekend. 21:33:23 Also, do you have an idea how to make it hold callback values automatically? 21:33:44 I cannot think of anything sane. 21:34:11 Neither can I. 21:34:16 You've seen my hack. 21:34:40 Well, yeah -- I'm trying to figure out some way to avoid it... 21:35:17 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:35:22 In my email, the `callback-holders' hack is bad, because if you make it happen in a loop it will keep consing new callbacks to the list that it holds. 21:36:06 Right. -- If there were some way to get back to the block from the executable address, you could push the problem into the C half. Say that the C DLL has to register the held callback as static -- 21:36:29 [And not consing (just making the hash entry point at the callback value) is bad, because if you use the same function in several places, then each use will release the previous reference.] 21:37:12 That doesn't work in the generic dll case, where the C code is unaware of Scheme. 21:37:24 scheme-register-static was what I was trying to remember. 21:37:28 Right. 21:37:29 (Which is why I intentionally push these problems to Scheme.) 21:38:21 Yet another thing that I don't like is something like this: 21:38:25 But if I hand anything else Scheme to C - a cvector, say - and it isn't reg'd as static, it will vanish too on next GC. Why automagic only for the callback thunk? 21:38:37 (_fun #:handle blah _whatever -> _whatever) 21:39:02 which will make it use `blah' as a weak hash key, so you can control when it can be GCed. 21:39:11 But that seems pretty inconvenient to me. 21:39:49 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 21:39:51 (And you must know that `blah' should be an allocated value, so using a quoted literal or a number will make it never go away) 21:41:49 Attach a list of consed callbacks to the ffi-lib? And drop them iff the ffilib is ever collected? 21:42:03 Leaky. 21:42:19 That's even worse than the Scheme function thing. 21:43:09 Trying (for ([i (in-range 100000)]) (some-c-function (lambda () ...))) is going to be really bad. 21:43:28 If anything comes to me tonight I'll let you know. I really don't have any good ideas right now. Or even not-bad ideas. 21:43:33 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176208013.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43:47 OK. 21:45:04 -!- annodomini_ [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:47:16 Has anyone done a comparison of the relative costs of FFIs and their potential benefits in executing code for hot spots? 21:47:35 I am of the mind that in many cases, the cost of swapping to a C or foreign side of the code results in more overhead than the speed gained during the hot spots. 21:48:08 This is assuming an FFI that requires this, which native code compilers would, though Scheme->C compilers could potentially avoid this. 21:48:32 Yes, you generally want to call out to C only when it's justified. 21:48:38 Nonetheless, there could still be some overhead associated with the embedding of C code into a Scheme procedure even in Scheme->C Systems, and I am curious if anyone has ever examined this? 21:48:51 eli, right, but has anyone actually measured how much it costs? 21:49:22 And, maybe, compared the various implementations? 21:49:52 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B056BFC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:56 I don't know of any studies. I do know of projects that have encountered this problem, not with Scheme but with Lua -- they had a lot of back and forth transitions eating their performance. Ended up throwing out all the Lua to address it. 21:50:27 I think that they had done a messy job of factoring, but it wasn't my project by that time -- no point in kibitzing over somebody else's code. 21:51:28 arcfide: I looked into the costs of our ffi (based on libffi) vs swig vs hand-written C glue. 21:51:40 But that's not what you're looking for, it seems. 21:51:47 -!- samth [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:52:24 eli, well, I'd like to see some analysis of the actual specific overhead associated with the various ways of doing FFIs in the various implementations, and how much it affects the speed of code. 21:52:28 It also depends on how much conversion there actually is. 21:53:00 Some systems, e.g., keep a length count for strings, but also add a non-counted \0 at the end to maximize compatibility with C, though strings with embedded \0 are still borked. 21:53:30 jcowan, why? 21:53:40 jcowan: IIRC, the costs were such that these kind of details would not matter as much as you'd think... 21:53:58 eli, really? 21:54:09 eli, out of curiousity, what did you discover when you compared? 21:54:23 arcfide: why borked, or why do this? 21:54:38 arcfide: But in general jcowan is right -- there are so many factors that doing a meaningful comparison would be very difficult. 21:54:45 Also note that Lua interns every string, including the ones coming from C. 21:55:20 (I tried to convince Felix that Lua strings = Chicken symbols, but he wouldn't bite.) 22:04:30 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-4ede48ba6cbc8e7b] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:20 Here's a more important question: How flexible is the FFI, and how much mental overhead is there to using the FFI in writing a wrapper for a randomly chosen C library? 22:08:27 It doesn't matter how fast Scheme can interact with a library whose wrapper you are unwilling to write! 22:09:07 Heh. A system call interface with an overhead measured in /weeks/.... 22:11:24 -!- bascule [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit ["Changing server"] 22:12:16 noether [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #scheme 22:13:12 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:13:18 -!- noether is now known as bascule 22:13:25 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:13:38 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 22:15:05 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.66] has joined #scheme 22:33:28 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.66] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 22:46:41 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 22:53:21 Of course, you are all right, but it was just a passing fancy of mine. 22:53:33 I think it would be interesting to know. 22:54:34 IMO, choosing the Scheme that you like and will use successfully is more important than how fast it is, unless that speed really really hurts you. 22:54:55 Usually it doesn't, so the flexibility of the FFI is more important, or at least, how likely you are to use it. 22:55:06 On the other hand, it's nice to know just what kind oif overhead we're dealing with. 22:55:41 I could test it experimentally, which I do, but I was just curious from a higher standpoint of comparing the ways of doing FFIs. 22:57:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:04:20 Fair question, intra-implementation, and important to answer before you decide to FFI to libc's sqrt() for TEH SPEEDX0R. Really really hard to measure across implementations. Ever read Gabriel's Lisp benchmarking book? 23:09:59 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #scheme 23:10:43 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:23 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:00 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@74.56.56.230] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:12:24 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:18:30 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:44 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 23:26:40 grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:27:24 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085226.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:18 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:31:19 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-188-161-219.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:33:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe [n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-028-216.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:07 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.176.88.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 23:34:54 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:37:53 cky [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 23:48:55 -!- cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has quit [] 23:55:36 Massively OT and inappropriate question -- in the C programming language, which infix operator takes precedence, ^ (bitwise XOR) or * (multiplication)? 23:55:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-129-17.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:55:43 *Daemmerung* is porting some C code 23:56:59 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme