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2014-08-01T08:27:05Z scymtym: i would like to commit a cleaned-up version of this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143282 (assuming tests will pass). any objections?
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2014-08-01T08:28:52Z Ralt: hi
2014-08-01T08:29:00Z stassats: "does not fail" is a bit confusing, does it apply to the current code or to the fixed code?
2014-08-01T08:29:29Z Ralt: when I use (sb-ext:quit), it tells me the code is deprecated and I should use (sb-thread:abort-thread :allow-exit t). Fine, but how do I specify the exit status?
2014-08-01T08:29:45Z stassats: does it really tell you that?
2014-08-01T08:31:18Z Ralt: hmf
2014-08-01T08:31:21Z Ralt: I had that last night, yes
2014-08-01T08:31:26Z Ralt: can't reproduce now.
2014-08-01T08:31:49Z scymtym: stassats: good point, thanks. "fix CHANGE-CLASS for unbound slots"?
2014-08-01T08:32:01Z Ralt: oh my, I didn't fully read the message. My bad.
2014-08-01T08:32:36Z stassats: i usually try to find more colorful words than "fix"
2014-08-01T08:33:16Z stassats: "CHANGE-CLASS should accept unbound slots?"
2014-08-01T08:34:18Z scymtym: i will think about the commit message some more after i get the remaining details right :)
2014-08-01T08:34:42Z stassats: and the first line appears to be too long
2014-08-01T08:34:46Z stassats: maybe two commits?
2014-08-01T08:36:04Z stassats: and the description has "instance with unbound at least one unbound"
2014-08-01T08:38:08Z scymtym: stassats: ok, i will try to make two commits
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2014-08-01T17:53:48Z scymtym: CHANGE-CLASS turned out to require a bit more fixing. here is what i would like to commit http://paste.lisp.org/display/143287
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2014-08-02T09:45:42Z scymtym: i tested http://paste.lisp.org/display/143287 some more and fixed one minor issue. if nobody objects, i will commit sometime today
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2014-08-02T16:13:53Z pkhuong: Krystof: re backquote: a special operator can still expose a macro definition for codewalkers
2014-08-02T16:14:07Z pkhuong: but our own machinery doesn't have to expand it naively.
2014-08-02T16:16:05Z stassats: wouldn't code walkers use macroexpand-1?
2014-08-02T16:16:55Z pkhuong: yes, and that would use the macro fallback
2014-08-02T16:17:16Z stassats: and the original complaint was that macroexpand-1 expanded things
2014-08-02T16:17:42Z pkhuong: I thought the complaint was that macroexpand-all expands things
2014-08-02T16:18:04Z stassats: both?
2014-08-02T16:18:35Z stassats: (sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all '(sb-ext:truly-the fixnum 10)) => (TRULY-THE FIXNUM 10)
2014-08-02T16:18:36Z pkhuong: macroexpand-1 expanding backquote into list manipulation code seems like a feature to me
2014-08-02T16:18:46Z stassats: but i want macroexpand-1 most of the time
2014-08-02T16:19:14Z stassats: although, i wouldn't macroexpand-1 on backquote indeed
2014-08-02T16:19:18Z pkhuong: exactly
2014-08-02T16:19:53Z stassats: well then, a source transform + macro would work for macroexpand-all (i think)
2014-08-02T16:20:03Z stassats: truly-the uses an ir1 translator
2014-08-02T16:20:28Z pkhuong: and has a macro for codewalkers
2014-08-02T16:20:36Z stassats: right, that's why i tried it
2014-08-02T16:20:47Z pkhuong: that's explicitly allowed by the standard
2014-08-02T16:20:56Z pkhuong: and I feel like it's a decent compromise for backquote.
2014-08-02T16:21:32Z stassats: (mapcar #'funcall '(macroexpand-1 sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all) '(#1=(sb-ext:truly-the fixnum 10)  #1#)) => ((THE FIXNUM 10) (TRULY-THE FIXNUM 10))
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2014-08-02T16:27:37Z stassats: |3b|: re core.test.sh, turns out, with :sb-xref-for-internals and just creating a callback, the core can't restart
2014-08-02T16:28:11Z stassats: which is quite weird
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2014-08-02T16:29:28Z pkhuong: stassats: could we run out of static space or something stupid like that?
2014-08-02T16:29:43Z stassats: i really doubt that
2014-08-02T16:29:58Z stassats: would sb-xref-for-internals use up static space?
2014-08-02T16:30:41Z stassats: the symptom is that it faults at a PC
2014-08-02T16:30:47Z stassats: so, it calls something that isn't code
2014-08-02T16:31:06Z stassats: but, just creating a callback is enough, no calling it upon restart
2014-08-02T16:31:33Z stassats: perhaps the initial function is somehow moved, but that's accounted for
2014-08-02T16:31:41Z stassats: i shall check that
2014-08-02T16:33:02Z stassats: #19 0x0000d604 in safe_call_into_lisp (fun=0, args=0x0, nargs=0) at funcall.c:41 is the oldest clean frame
2014-08-02T16:34:00Z stassats: the fault is at 16, PC was at 16
2014-08-02T16:34:24Z stassats: but it's /funcalling initial_function=0x51ab6855
2014-08-02T16:35:24Z stassats: so, it should be an address of the function object, it dereferences the address of the code, which happens to be 0?
2014-08-02T16:36:11Z stassats: > p 0x51ab6855 $1=       0x51ab6855: fun pointer header: 0x00000000: 0 (invalid header object)
2014-08-02T16:37:32Z stassats: the variable that reference the initial function is static indeed
2014-08-02T16:43:00Z stassats: and using (defvar *x* (sb-int:make-static-vector 10)) instead of a callback doesn't crash
2014-08-02T16:43:59Z stassats: well, 10 is not enough
2014-08-02T16:45:54Z stassats: using the same amount of stack space doesn't crash
2014-08-02T16:47:09Z stassats: static
2014-08-02T17:00:11Z stassats: this is weird: it crashes when i call os_flush_icache on it
2014-08-02T17:01:17Z stassats: no, when i make it '(unsigned-byte 8)
2014-08-02T17:02:40Z stassats: (- sb-vm:*static-space-free-pointer* (progn  (sb-int:make-static-vector (* 80 4) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) sb-vm:*static-space-free-pointer*))
2014-08-02T17:02:56Z stassats: the result doesn't change if i add or remove  :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8), can that be right?
2014-08-02T17:03:12Z stassats: ok, it's the default
2014-08-02T17:24:04Z stassats: (let* ((vector (sb-int:make-static-vector 10)) (sap (sb-sys:vector-sap vector))) vector) is enough to crash,
2014-08-02T17:24:21Z stassats: (let* ((vector (sb-int:make-static-vector 10)) (sap vector)) vector) doesn't crash
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2014-08-02T19:19:06Z stassats: back to it, it doesn't crash with (sb-sys:vector-sap (the (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) vector))
2014-08-02T19:19:22Z stassats: the lack of a declaration causes that dreaded lengthy type check
2014-08-02T19:24:56Z stassats: (let () (typep (sb-int:make-static-vector 10) '(sb-kernel:simple-unboxed-array (*)))) does crash it
2014-08-02T19:24:58Z stassats: what the hell
2014-08-02T19:26:24Z stassats:  (let () (typep (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) '(sb-kernel:simple-unboxed-array (*)))) does too
2014-08-02T19:27:50Z stassats: that's even more weird, since the type check is elided
2014-08-02T19:29:06Z stassats: just evaluating (defun foo () (typep (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) '(sb-kernel:simple-unboxed-array (*)))) is enough
2014-08-02T19:30:19Z stassats: as is (defun foo (x) (declare (simple-vector x)) (typep x '(sb-kernel:simple-unboxed-array (*))))
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2014-08-02T19:46:26Z stassats: (defun foo (x) (or (typep x 'fixnum) (typep x 'bignum) (typep x 'list) (typep x 'cons) (typep x 'symbol) (typep x 'function) (typep x 'simple-array) (typep x 'character))) crashes
2014-08-02T19:46:33Z stassats: basically any combination of 8 typeps
2014-08-02T19:50:03Z stassats: so does (LAMBDA (X 8-vars) (OR ,@8-(TYPEP X var)))
2014-08-02T19:54:05Z pkhuong: is copy more args fixed?
2014-08-02T19:54:11Z stassats: yes
2014-08-02T19:54:35Z stassats: the number of arguments doesn't really matter here, just the number of typeps
2014-08-02T19:56:24Z stassats: or actually, the number of OR arguments
2014-08-02T19:56:25Z pkhuong: ah.
2014-08-02T19:58:28Z stassats: such as (LAMBDA (X S0 S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7) (OR (= X S0) (= X S1) (= X S2) (= X S3) (= X S4) (= X S5) (= X S6) (= X S7)))
2014-08-02T20:02:24Z stassats: that's somehow related to sb-xref-for-internals
2014-08-02T20:10:06Z stassats: making internal-name-p always return T doesn't stop from crashing
2014-08-02T20:11:21Z stassats: so, somehow compiling something makes the GC confused or some other part of SLAD, so that it overwrites/moves the #'restart-lisp function
2014-08-02T20:16:29Z stassats: i can trigger it without sb-xref-for-internals, just need more arguments
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2014-08-02T20:22:49Z stassats: doesn't make any sense
2014-08-02T20:27:36Z stassats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143296
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2014-08-02T20:32:44Z stassats: sb!vm::*restart-lisp-function* is a closure, so it's created after the mess
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2014-08-02T20:42:12Z stassats: (lambda () a-thousand-calls-to(foo)) gets the same result
2014-08-02T20:43:43Z stassats: this is the most weird sbcl bug
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2014-08-02T20:47:13Z |3b|: yeah, sounds pretty odd
2014-08-02T20:49:05Z pkhuong: stassats: I'd try disabling part of the compilation pipeline until the bug stops
2014-08-02T20:49:12Z pkhuong: e.g., is it IR1 or codegen :\
2014-08-02T20:49:34Z stassats: i would think codegen
2014-08-02T20:49:57Z pkhuong: IR1 has some unsafe code for consets
2014-08-02T20:50:38Z stassats: the reason being that save-lisp-and-die itself doesn't touch ir1, but creating closures is closes to code generation
2014-08-02T20:51:15Z stassats: maybe some code component length badly extending, overlapping with a closure
2014-08-02T20:51:29Z stassats: i did touch that part recently
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2014-08-03T04:18:27Z pillton: I am trying to write a compiler macro for a SETF function i.e. (defun (setf my-elt) ...).
2014-08-03T04:22:08Z pillton: The compiler macro inspects the type of a symbol by invoking SB-CLTL2:VARIABLE-INFORMATION with the symbol and the environment given to the compiler macro.
2014-08-03T04:22:49Z pillton: However, SETF the macro, creates a lexical environment in which the type information of the original symbol is not propagated.
2014-08-03T04:24:12Z pillton: e.g. If A is the original symbol with a type declaration then SETF produces something like the following
2014-08-03T04:24:21Z pillton: (let ((:#A A)) ...)
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2014-08-03T04:31:01Z pillton: What I was expecting was that any type information for A would also be propagated to #:A1.
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2014-08-03T07:18:55Z _8hzp: pillton: use deftransform instead of compiler macros?
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2014-08-03T09:42:56Z stassats: back to the arm mystery, the produced sbcl.core is 62M, but the saved core becomes 43M
2014-08-03T09:43:01Z stassats: even a working one
2014-08-03T09:44:43Z stassats: on x86-64, the difference is built 46039088, saved 45908016
2014-08-03T09:47:46Z stassats: on ppc, 36M vs 31M
2014-08-03T10:11:55Z |3b|: is gc conservative on arm?
2014-08-03T10:12:05Z stassats: nope
2014-08-03T10:12:59Z stassats: but save-lisp-and-die is precise everywhere
2014-08-03T10:13:39Z |3b|: yeah, guess it would have to be
2014-08-03T10:14:12Z stassats: it can be, since no stack to return to
2014-08-03T10:15:04Z stassats: there's something similar with ppc and arm, pretty large size differences for essentially the same cores
2014-08-03T10:20:52Z stassats: so, i did the following: (constantly (make-array 300000000 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))
2014-08-03T10:21:04Z stassats: 1RET2RET3RET, slad tries to save a 300M core
2014-08-03T10:22:13Z stassats: (though clearing */**/*** is not necessary anymore, slad does that now)
2014-08-03T10:22:56Z stassats: (setf *print-array* nil), (make-array 100000000 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)), the saved core is 139MB
2014-08-03T10:23:26Z stassats: on x86-64, the size doesn't bulge
2014-08-03T10:23:53Z stassats: so, the save gc pass is broken
2014-08-03T10:24:35Z stassats: ppc is not affected either, so it's an ARM problem
2014-08-03T10:24:50Z Krystof: this is ringing several bells
2014-08-03T10:25:05Z Krystof: mind you, I've been doing this so long I've probably seen every class of bug by now
2014-08-03T10:25:29Z stassats: starting that 140M core and saving a new one, back to 43M
2014-08-03T10:27:06Z pillton: This is a better example of what I was trying to say before.
2014-08-03T10:27:12Z pillton: http://hastebin.com/wamemupone
2014-08-03T10:27:20Z stassats: maybe it's just the size? time to fire up a hex editor
2014-08-03T10:28:35Z stassats: if you want to use types, compiler macros won't help you
2014-08-03T10:29:11Z pillton: The compiler macro part is irrelevant. I was thinking incorrectly.
2014-08-03T10:29:13Z |3b|: cltl environment stuff tells you about declarations, not derived types
2014-08-03T10:29:34Z pillton: Ok, now that answers my question.
2014-08-03T10:30:11Z |3b|: if you want derived types, deftransform could give you those, if you want the declaration, using your own setf expansion might let you see that
2014-08-03T10:30:42Z |3b|: latter is probably also more portable if that matters
2014-08-03T10:32:04Z pillton: Ok. Great. Thank you.
2014-08-03T10:34:08Z stassats: the offending array is saved into the core, it's not just a size problem
2014-08-03T10:36:20Z stassats: (gc :full t) does get rid of it, though
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2014-08-03T10:45:53Z stassats: maybe it is a size thing, it just saves pages which are unused
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2014-08-03T10:49:07Z |3b|: so it collects it but gets confused about how big the heap is?
2014-08-03T10:49:28Z stassats: something like that
2014-08-03T10:49:35Z |3b|: looks like it doesn't show up in ROOM after loading the big core
2014-08-03T10:50:12Z stassats: then that just confirms it
2014-08-03T10:50:27Z stassats: such big vectors are large-objects, let's try with a list
2014-08-03T10:52:56Z stassats: same thing
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2014-08-03T10:55:51Z stassats: though SBCL_DYNDEBUG=all shows that it sees all the space
2014-08-03T10:56:02Z stassats: so, somehow the pages which are marked as unused are dumped
2014-08-03T10:59:11Z |3b|: also not being zeroed properly, if you could see contents in hex dump?
2014-08-03T10:59:40Z stassats: you mean by zero_all_free_pages?
2014-08-03T10:59:43Z |3b|: yeah
2014-08-03T11:00:12Z stassats: i think free pages are pages within a gc region, and empty gc regions aren't zeroed, and that one somehow gets dumped
2014-08-03T11:00:26Z stassats: if my weak understanding of the gc is close to reality
2014-08-03T11:07:41Z scymtym: is PARALLEL-FASL-LOAD known to sometimes hang or is this a regression? (https://ci.cor-lab.org/job/sbcl-master/590/featureset=5,label=ubuntu_trusty_64bit/console)
2014-08-03T11:08:13Z stassats: it isn't known
2014-08-03T11:09:06Z scymtym: thanks, i will try gather some observations then
2014-08-03T11:13:18Z scymtym: only observed on x86_64 with sb-safepoint so far. earliest occurrence is 1. Aug (but probably introduced earlier since the build history is truncated and the bug seems to surface rarely)
2014-08-03T11:14:31Z stassats: is the definition of set_alloc_pointer right for ARM?
2014-08-03T11:19:25Z |3b|: seems a bit odd, not sure what it is supposed to do though
2014-08-03T11:20:57Z stassats: the dynamic space saving code in save.c uses ALLOCATION_POINTER, but set_alloc_pointer doesn't
2014-08-03T11:21:00Z stassats: either is wrong
2014-08-03T11:21:10Z |3b|: is that only defined for arm,x86, and x8664?
2014-08-03T11:21:52Z stassats: the dynamic_space_free_pointer and ALLOCATION_POINTER relationship is unclear
2014-08-03T11:25:02Z stassats: other platforms have a registers which is uses as an allocation pointer, but to access it in C they put it into dynamic_space_free_pointer
2014-08-03T11:25:13Z stassats: ARM doesn't have such a register, but it still maintains dynamic_space_free_pointer
2014-08-03T11:26:32Z |3b|: should those references to reg_ALLOC be in arm-arch.c then?
2014-08-03T11:27:15Z stassats: there are a lot of things which shouldn't be in arm-arch.c
2014-08-03T11:27:35Z stassats: but the ones with reg_ALLOC are commented out
2014-08-03T11:27:37Z |3b|: ah, #if 0
2014-08-03T11:27:55Z stassats: it always confuses me, i'll remove it soon
2014-08-03T11:29:13Z |3b|: seems plausible that set_alloc_pointer is broken, | is bitwise or in C, right?
2014-08-03T11:30:21Z stassats: reg_ALLOC would be the equivalent of boxed_region, so it's a bit unclear why the difference between dynamic_space_free_pointer and ALLOCATION_POINTER
2014-08-03T11:32:54Z stassats: |3b|: that's not the broken part, that's just to maintain alignment
2014-08-03T11:33:14Z stassats: or to maintain the lowtag, not sure why it's needed
2014-08-03T11:33:16Z |3b|: ah, right, was reading the & backwards
2014-08-03T11:33:41Z stassats: the problem is a) should it use allocation_pointer, b) or should save.c just use get_alloc_pointer instead of allocation_pointer
2014-08-03T11:34:41Z stassats: dynamic-space-free-pointer VOP on arm uses *allocation-pointer*
2014-08-03T11:35:43Z |3b|: yeah, interrupt.c resets it from ALLOCATION_POINTER
2014-08-03T11:36:08Z stassats: it just saves it to dynamic_space_free_pointer then pops it
2014-08-03T11:36:35Z stassats: why?
2014-08-03T11:38:10Z stassats: that seems only needed for cheneygc
2014-08-03T11:38:44Z stassats: so, guard that part with cheneygc, change get_alloc_pointer to what x86 does
2014-08-03T11:40:02Z stassats: doesn't add any more clarity to the endless #ifdefs
2014-08-03T11:44:17Z stassats: if i hadn't noticed the size difference, that bug would be pretty hard to solve
2014-08-03T11:44:22Z |3b|: yeah, that bit looks like it could use some abstraction to localize the reg_ALLOC vs cheynegc vs gencgc... some places have 3 options, some places just use dynamic_space_free_pointer directly
2014-08-03T11:45:25Z stassats: nobody wants to change things like MIPS or ALPHA without being able to test it
2014-08-03T11:45:41Z |3b|: yeah, that makes things harder
2014-08-03T11:47:24Z stassats: ok, my change broke cold init
2014-08-03T11:49:30Z |3b|: should the dynamic_space_free_pointer use in purify be using ALLOCATION_POINTER as well?
2014-08-03T11:49:46Z stassats: purify is a cheynegc feature
2014-08-03T11:50:04Z |3b|: ah, guess not then
2014-08-03T11:50:15Z stassats: well, it's useful to keep cheneygc working, i guess
2014-08-03T11:50:30Z stassats: but let's make gencgc first
2014-08-03T11:51:27Z stassats: coreparse.c seems to be in a need of an update
2014-08-03T11:54:01Z stassats: nope, a different error
2014-08-03T12:01:54Z stassats: arm-assem.S too
2014-08-03T12:05:38Z stassats: i think i'm certainly breaking cheneygc on arm now
2014-08-03T12:05:46Z stassats: will need to later check and right it
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2014-08-03T12:07:14Z stassats: all the variations could just use one thing, there is really no difference between a C and Lisp variable for that
2014-08-03T12:16:49Z stassats: 43M Aug  3 12:18 output/sbcl.core
2014-08-03T12:16:54Z stassats: aight
2014-08-03T12:18:28Z stassats: (LAMBDA (X S0 S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7) (OR (= X S0) (= X S1) (= X S2) (= X S3) (= X S4) (= X S5) (= X S6) (= X S7))) doesn't crash anymore
2014-08-03T12:19:13Z stassats: neither does (lambda () thousand-(foo)))
2014-08-03T12:21:46Z stassats: core.test.sh passes
2014-08-03T12:21:55Z |3b|: cool
2014-08-03T12:23:20Z stassats: although your bug wasn't really helpful, too bad nobody noticed the size difference first
2014-08-03T12:23:40Z stassats: 63M for a core
2014-08-03T12:26:15Z |3b|: well, something to add new tests for then :)
2014-08-03T12:30:26Z stassats: and it's in
2014-08-03T12:31:37Z |3b| builds
2014-08-03T12:31:59Z stassats: what are you using?
2014-08-03T12:32:01Z |3b|: how do i build cheney? might as well try that too
2014-08-03T12:32:22Z stassats: don't bother, i'm sure it's broken, i'll try building it when i'm in the mood for also fixing it
2014-08-03T12:32:37Z |3b|: well, doesn't take much longer for 2 builds than 1
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2014-08-03T12:32:56Z |3b| is using an nvidia jetson board, with nvidia tegra k1
2014-08-03T12:33:10Z stassats: how fast does it build?
2014-08-03T12:33:18Z |3b|: 14 min i think
2014-08-03T12:33:28Z stassats: nice, 34 here
2014-08-03T12:33:33Z |3b|: 15-16 for 3 builds at once
2014-08-03T12:33:44Z stassats: but i cross build
2014-08-03T12:34:05Z stassats: i could use faster make-target* too
2014-08-03T12:35:19Z |3b| wonders if printing all that stuff across ssh slows it down at all, forgot to run it under screen to hide it
2014-08-03T12:35:40Z |3b|: though i guess it has enough extra cores free to handle ssh
2014-08-03T12:37:05Z stassats: 14 minutes, i think that's still slower or just as slow as on x86 ten years ago
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2014-08-03T12:38:04Z |3b|: i think that chip is more focused on the GPU, 300GFLOP isn't too bad for <15W
2014-08-03T12:39:23Z stassats: and oops, basically 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 are broken on ARM
2014-08-03T12:40:10Z |3b|: that's one way to find out if anyone is actually using it :)
2014-08-03T12:44:15Z stassats: i guess i won't bother with a new arm development device until 64-bit ones become available
2014-08-03T12:44:52Z |3b|: you see the $2k one someone linked the other day?
2014-08-03T12:46:08Z stassats: $2k is a bit problematic
2014-08-03T12:47:20Z |3b|: oopsm $3k not 2k http://www.amd.com/en-us/press-releases/Pages/64-bit-developer-kit-2014jul30.aspx
2014-08-03T12:47:40Z |3b|: 16gb ram though :)
2014-08-03T12:47:53Z |3b|: not sure what you would do with 8 sata connectors
2014-08-03T12:48:28Z stassats: and i'd like to see some benchmarks first
2014-08-03T12:49:36Z |3b|:  14m19.404s, running tests
2014-08-03T12:52:08Z |3b|: do threads work at all on arm or is there a bunch more work left before that?
2014-08-03T12:54:35Z stassats: just a SMOP
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2014-08-03T12:59:57Z Krystof: x86 10 years ago is longer than 15 minutes
2014-08-03T13:00:04Z Krystof: (I happen to have a 10-year-old x86 right here
2014-08-03T13:01:29Z stassats: maybe i'm thinking 9 years, prescott 2M
2014-08-03T13:01:49Z |3b|: don't remember Failure:            compiler.pure.lisp / OPTIMIZE-ARRAY-IN-BOUNDS-P
2014-08-03T13:01:54Z |3b|: from previous runs
2014-08-03T13:02:14Z |3b|: doesn't look like i was smart enough to save actual results though
2014-08-03T13:03:28Z |3b|: that + 3 in float.pure and 2 in debug.impure that were there before, and 4 expected failures
2014-08-03T13:03:48Z stassats: floats are due to the lack of exceptions in vfp
2014-08-03T13:03:56Z scymtym: |3b|: i think i broke that
2014-08-03T13:03:58Z stassats: and debug something is broken
2014-08-03T13:04:25Z stassats: yesterday's checkout doesn't have optimize-array-in-bounds-p failing here
2014-08-03T13:05:40Z stassats: scymtym: how?
2014-08-03T13:05:56Z scymtym: stassats: seems to be the ASSERT change. i don't understand how, though
2014-08-03T13:06:18Z |3b|: looks repeatable at least
2014-08-03T13:06:38Z stassats: |3b|: --break-on-failure and what does it say?
2014-08-03T13:08:14Z |3b|: http://paste.lisp.org/+32KL
2014-08-03T13:11:20Z |3b|: same failure on x8664
2014-08-03T13:11:51Z |3b|: in same place
2014-08-03T13:13:05Z stassats: good, debugging on arm is painful
2014-08-03T13:18:03Z scymtym: i overlooked the test failure when running test before committing. and i may know what is going wrong
2014-08-03T13:18:28Z stassats: what, the red color didn't jump out?
2014-08-03T13:20:42Z scymtym: too many expected failures
2014-08-03T13:21:24Z stassats: that's why i added the color output, because i missed a failure and committed
2014-08-03T13:21:47Z scymtym: and it is indeed very helpful
2014-08-03T13:22:25Z scymtym: i was thinking about coloring failure details as well to make them easy to find when scrolling back
2014-08-03T13:23:18Z scymtym: regarding ASSERT change: it picks up macros in the lexical environment which it shouldn't. is there an existing function for finding function entries (as opposed to e.g. macros )in the lexical environment?
2014-08-03T13:23:49Z stassats: run macro-function on it?
2014-08-03T13:25:21Z pkhuong: FWIW, x86 builds were ~24 minutes on my 1.6 GHz Pentium M.
2014-08-03T13:26:37Z stassats: i can dust out my overclocked P4, i think it was around 10 minutes
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2014-08-03T13:27:20Z scymtym: maybe it should explicitly check for FUNCTIONAL to detect local functions to avoid handling INLINE/NOTINLINE and potential future entry kinds?
2014-08-03T13:28:52Z pkhuong: (granted, that was under a VM, so IO was surprisingly slow)
2014-08-03T13:31:44Z stassats: scymtym: how should it handle INLINE?
2014-08-03T13:33:53Z scymtym: i'm not sure because it could transform (assert (foo (bar …))) where bar is supposed to be inline into (let ((#:g (bar))) (foo #:g))
2014-08-03T13:37:04Z pkhuong: scymtym: I don't see how that's a problem
2014-08-03T13:40:26Z stassats: macro-function does access the lexenv, so i guess just checking for functional will be a tad more efficient
2014-08-03T13:41:33Z scymtym: pkhuong: i don't know whether it's a problem. #:g would have multiple uses. i don't whether that would affect the possibility of inlining
2014-08-03T13:41:51Z stassats: only if functional is defined before macros.lisp is compiled, though
2014-08-03T13:41:52Z scymtym: stassats: the call is at macroexpansion time
2014-08-03T13:42:09Z stassats: scymtym: so what, fast-fast-fast!
2014-08-03T13:44:43Z stassats: on the other hand, the call to macro-function may take up less space
2014-08-03T13:48:48Z stassats: both (and (typep env 'sb!kernel:lexenv) (assoc name (sb!c::lexenv-funs env)) (not (sb!xc:macro-function name env))) and (and (typep env 'sb!kernel:lexenv) (typep (cdr (assoc name (sb!c::lexenv-funs env)) sb!c::functional))) should work
2014-08-03T13:48:48Z stassats:  
2014-08-03T13:48:48Z stassats:  
2014-08-03T13:48:58Z stassats: but i'm not sure which to prefer
2014-08-03T13:50:12Z scymtym: stassats: i used the second one because it should also work if there is unexpected stuff in the lexenv's fun slot
2014-08-03T13:57:11Z |3b| should possibly clean up these 1060 run-tests-* directories under tests/
2014-08-03T13:59:57Z stassats: yeah, what's up with that?
2014-08-03T14:08:03Z stassats: i can't even find what creates them
2014-08-03T14:09:36Z stassats: i see now
2014-08-03T14:09:41Z stassats: can't it use static files?
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2014-08-05T19:52:11Z krzysz00: Krystof: I can't seem to get a rebase off because the reader changes were made before the reader optimization stuff, and git doesn't remember how I resolved those issues.
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2014-08-05T20:52:44Z jrm: Hi.  I noticed in the 1.2.2 release notes there is support for GNU/kFreeBSD.  Is there any information about 1.2.2 on FreeBSD?
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2014-08-05T20:55:52Z pkhuong: jrm: It should work like it has for many years
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2014-08-05T20:57:32Z jrm: Thanks pkhuong.  It compiled and I can get a REPL, but I recall problems with recent versions.  For example, compiling StumpWM with anything later than 1.1.12 (the version in the FreeBSD ports system) caused frequent StumpWM crashes, but the older version was OK.  I'll go ahead and see what happens.
2014-08-05T20:59:57Z pkhuong: jrm: are you sure the difference isn't compiling with/without threads?
2014-08-05T21:00:00Z pkhuong: *compiling sbcl
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2014-08-05T21:04:11Z jrm: pkhuong: INSTALL tells me that "Native threads. Enabled by default on x86[-64] Linux only".  They are also disable in the FreeBSD port.
2014-08-05T21:06:07Z pkhuong: that's correct. are you enabling them, e.g., with a --fancy build?
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2014-08-05T21:07:43Z Krystof: krzysz00: you might have to resolve some conflicts manually, yes; I don't know of any shortcuts.  (Others here may do)
2014-08-05T21:09:00Z jrm: pkhuong: I just ran INSTALL_ROOT=/home/jrm/sbcl sh install.sh without any arguments.
2014-08-05T21:09:40Z jrm: It's been at least one release, maybe two since I tried, so I'll give it another shot and see how things go and report back.
2014-08-05T21:13:49Z pkhuong: krzysz00: when I have a long running branch, I tend to rebase and squash in a couple commits
2014-08-05T21:14:22Z pkhuong: e.g., infrastructure first, then new data, then switching from the old to the new implementation
2014-08-05T21:14:42Z pkhuong: and I rebase -i a lot to rewrite history more logically
2014-08-05T21:15:23Z pkhuong: squashing means I have to build + test fewer commits
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2014-08-05T21:43:12Z pkhuong: krzysz00: I also find it's easy to get huge rebases wrong, so I tend to do them in a new branch and check that the end result is identical to the old branch (with all its unseemly history)
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2014-08-05T22:34:11Z drmeister: While implementing Common Lisp using LLVM - I've tried a couple of ways of passing arguments to functions.
2014-08-05T22:34:31Z drmeister: Currently I use a calling convention that looks like FOO( int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, ...)    I'm using C/C++ varargs
2014-08-05T22:34:38Z krzysz00: Thanks for the advice.
2014-08-05T22:34:52Z drmeister: I have to do this because every function needs to have the same prototype and I need to be able to pass variable numbers of arguments.
2014-08-05T22:35:08Z drmeister: By passing the first three arguments explicitly I can optimize the common cases of passing one, two, or three arguments in registers.
2014-08-05T22:35:24Z drmeister: I've been thinking of rather than using VARARGS  I might try allocating an array for the remaining arguments on the stack and passing a pointer to that array.
2014-08-05T22:35:38Z drmeister: So using FOO( int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, T** remainingArgsInAlloca)
2014-08-05T22:36:04Z drmeister: I'd love to hear any thoughts from sbcl implementers
2014-08-05T22:37:27Z drmeister: A problem I see is that my stack frames would be larger because I think I would have to stack allocate a separate array for every function application because if I need to call BAR as I'm evaluating the arguments to FOO I need to maintain their arguments in separate arrays.
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2014-08-05T22:52:02Z pkhuong: drmeister: there's not really any way around this
2014-08-05T22:52:52Z pkhuong: either you have a larger stack frame or you copy the variable length section
2014-08-05T22:53:31Z pkhuong: how well you want to support tail calls should also guide your design.
2014-08-05T22:54:08Z pkhuong: drmeister: but your last problem isn't a problem
2014-08-05T22:54:22Z pkhuong: you only have to actually build the array just before calling FOO
2014-08-05T22:54:23Z drmeister: pkhuong: Yeah, using varargs precludes tail call optimization.
2014-08-05T22:55:00Z pkhuong: before that, the arguments can live in temporary variables that LLVM can take care of
2014-08-05T22:55:43Z drmeister: pkhuong: But I don't there is a way in LLVM to do an alloca on the stack and then release it after the function returns.
2014-08-05T22:56:36Z pkhuong: if it's fixed size, LLVM will treat that as a normal lexical variable.
2014-08-05T22:57:26Z pkhuong: also, if you still have a global vector for variable return values, you could use it for leftover arguments. The symmetry also helps with multiple-value-call.
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2014-08-05T22:59:51Z drmeister: I do have a global vector for variable return values - that and slicing has been working very, very nicely by the way - thanks again.
2014-08-05T23:00:28Z drmeister: Could you go into that idea of using it for leftover arguments and m-v-c a bit more - I'm not following but it sounds interesting.
2014-08-05T23:00:49Z pkhuong: push your variable length arguments in the global vector
2014-08-05T23:01:32Z drmeister: Oh - hang on - I think I see.
2014-08-05T23:01:43Z drmeister: Seriously, I can do that?
2014-08-05T23:01:52Z drmeister: Thinking...
2014-08-05T23:02:41Z drmeister: I'll think on that more - sometimes the simplest things escape me.
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2014-08-05T23:03:20Z drmeister: bbl
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2014-08-06T00:35:59Z jrm: pkhuong: I've only been running the latest StumpWM compiled with the latest SBCL for a few minutes, but so far so good.  I recall random crashes in the past, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.
2014-08-06T00:36:54Z jrm: Is the information regarding FreeBSD at http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html out of date, or are there known problems?
2014-08-06T00:51:03Z pkhuong: jrm: that information is up to date.
2014-08-06T00:51:40Z pkhuong: it doesn't take much to get a green (windows has one), but freebsd has always been among our most solid ports, after linux
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2014-08-06T01:09:09Z jrm: pkhuong: It says the latest FreeBSD amd64 is at 1.0.22.  I'm curious what problems there are that prevent an entry of 1.2.2?
2014-08-06T01:10:11Z pkhuong: no one has uploaded a newer binary
2014-08-06T01:10:30Z jrm: Oh.. right.  Those are just for binaries.  D'oh.  Sorry.
2014-08-06T01:17:30Z drmeister: pkhuong: So I can pass function arguments in multiple values - that does have a nice symmetry to it.   What was the comment about multiple-value-call?
2014-08-06T01:19:17Z pkhuong: drmeister: if the number of fixed arguments is the same as the number of fixed return values (e.g., SBCL does 3 for both), (multiple-value-call f [values]) can call F without manipulating the values/args vector
2014-08-06T01:20:19Z drmeister: Hmmm,  sbcl returns up to three values in registers?
2014-08-06T01:20:23Z pkhuong: people rarely use m-v-c directly, but it's useful to implement multiple-value-list, nth-value, multiple-value-bind, and probably a couple other.
2014-08-06T01:21:11Z drmeister: Yes, I appreciate that - I implement my m-v-b in terms of m-v-c as suggested by the CLHS
2014-08-06T01:21:12Z pkhuong: drmeister: for C, you could probably have 2 return value slots next to the vector, just to preserve the symmetry.
2014-08-06T01:23:19Z drmeister: Well, I was thinking of leaving the first three values of the args vector empty when I call a function so that I can write the three fixed arguments into them for non-trivial lambda lists.
2014-08-06T01:26:52Z drmeister: Did I ask you about that a couple of days ago?   Now that I call functions with (int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, ... )  for non trivial lambda-lists I ended up allocating an array of (nargs) size on the stack and copying arg0, arg1, arg2, valist into it and processing that array according to the functions lambda-list.
2014-08-06T01:27:37Z drmeister: Does sbcl do anything like that for non-trivial lambda lists involving &rest and &key?   Like (&key x y z)
2014-08-06T01:29:57Z pkhuong: drmeister: you'll probably want to copy out of the args vector asap
2014-08-06T01:30:06Z pkhuong: (e.g., before the next call)
2014-08-06T01:30:25Z pkhuong: and yes, that's pretty much what we do
2014-08-06T01:30:57Z drmeister: Yes, of course - before initialization forms are evaluated.
2014-08-06T01:30:57Z pkhuong: the callee reserves enough stack space after its (fixed size) frame to memmove the arguments there
2014-08-06T01:31:36Z pkhuong: it moves the arguments + in-register ones if necessary, and parses that in mostly normal CL
2014-08-06T01:31:55Z drmeister: Hmmm, ok, so passing args in an args/return-values vector it doesn't buy me as much as I initially thought.
2014-08-06T01:32:21Z pkhuong: it does avoid having two copies of the args vector on the stack.
2014-08-06T01:32:56Z drmeister: Yes - I was thinking initially it allowed me to avoid having any copies of the args vector on the stack.
2014-08-06T01:33:08Z drmeister: But I see now that it doesn't.
2014-08-06T01:33:20Z drmeister: The cost of doing business.
2014-08-06T01:33:46Z pkhuong: if you always had stack-allocated extra arg vectors, you could leave them there... with the global vector, you can try and parse the argument list directly in the vector
2014-08-06T01:34:47Z drmeister: But initialization forms can invoke functions that would use the global vector.
2014-08-06T01:34:59Z pkhuong: parsing can happen in two phases
2014-08-06T01:35:15Z pkhuong: First determine what arguments were passed
2014-08-06T01:35:19Z pkhuong: then compute defaults
2014-08-06T01:36:33Z drmeister: Is there a compelling advantage to that?   I hand wrote a lot of tricky LLVM-IR to process CL lambda lists in one pass.
2014-08-06T01:37:23Z drmeister: I could write a first person shooter in a lambda list.
2014-08-06T01:37:46Z pkhuong: not needing to copy the argument list just to parse it seems like a compelling advantage
2014-08-06T01:38:48Z pkhuong: and defaulting doesn't need to traverse the argument list; defaulting works in terms of scalar variables, which compilers usually handle a lot better than indexed arrays
2014-08-06T01:39:16Z pkhuong: also, I don't see how you can do defaulting for &key arguments in a single pass
2014-08-06T01:40:00Z drmeister: I may not - hang on let me check.
2014-08-06T01:41:34Z pkhuong: and &optional only need the number of arguments.
2014-08-06T01:43:48Z drmeister: You are correct - for &key - I keep an array of flags indicating which keys I've seen and I evaluate init forms for the ones that are missing.
2014-08-06T01:44:34Z drmeister: Do you mind if I summarize what I think you are suggesting - please correct me if I'm wrong.
2014-08-06T01:45:20Z drmeister: I call functions passing (int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2)  remaining args are passed in the args/values array at [3],[4],[5]...[nargs-1]
2014-08-06T01:45:31Z pkhuong: sure.
2014-08-06T01:46:12Z drmeister: For non trivial lambda lists like (FOO)  (FOO x) (FOO x y) (FOO x y z) (FOO x y &optional z)   I handle those using the registers.
2014-08-06T01:46:21Z drmeister: Sorry "trivial lambda lists"
2014-08-06T01:47:15Z drmeister: For NON-trivial lambda lists I write arg0, arg1, arg2 into args/values array at [0], [1], [2] and I process the given arguments in the args/values array.
2014-08-06T01:47:42Z drmeister: Then in a second pass I evaluate the init forms for the missing arguments.
2014-08-06T01:48:13Z drmeister: Does that sum it up?
2014-08-06T01:48:18Z pkhuong: pretty much
2014-08-06T01:48:44Z pkhuong: if you only have &optional/&rest, you don't need the second pass
2014-08-06T01:49:25Z drmeister: ECL uses varargs but I've also seen it write into the multiple values array -  I'm a little confused now as to exactly how ECL passes arguments.
2014-08-06T01:49:29Z pkhuong: and you should be able to avoid spilling arguments in the vector most of the time (wheen there are at least 3 required/optional arguments)
2014-08-06T01:50:48Z drmeister: You mean I can avoid spilling arguments in cases like if there are five required arguments?
2014-08-06T01:50:50Z pkhuong: and don't forget to find nice points to clear unused slots in that vector (both to avoid nasty initialisation bugs and to minimise spurious roots when GCing)
2014-08-06T01:51:16Z pkhuong: drmeister: spilling from arg0 to vector[0], yes.
2014-08-06T01:51:29Z drmeister: Yes, I see what you mean.
2014-08-06T01:51:36Z drmeister: Well, that was very illuminating.
2014-08-06T01:52:23Z drmeister: Is three fixed arguments the sweet spot?   Why not four or five?
2014-08-06T01:52:37Z drmeister: I choose three based on the Movitz paper.
2014-08-06T01:53:28Z drmeister: Or is that a decision based on the limited number of x86 registers in 32bit?  Would the extra registers in 64bit x86 prompt a re-evaluation of that?
2014-08-06T01:53:40Z pkhuong: We have 3 everywhere, in SBCL
2014-08-06T01:54:07Z pkhuong: I vaguely remember a c.l.l post that shows functions almost never return more than 3 values
2014-08-06T01:54:10Z pkhuong: so that makes sense.
2014-08-06T01:54:42Z drmeister: And C/C++ functions never return more than 1 value.
2014-08-06T01:54:59Z drmeister: weak joke
2014-08-06T01:56:17Z pkhuong: But that doesn't really work for arg passing. I guess that a split register set doesn't leave a lot of boxed registers after 3 args and the closure pointer
2014-08-06T02:00:05Z drmeister: Hmm, that reminds me, I don't use any register return values.   I pass a pointer for where to write the return value.  I thought I had to do that for multiple value return.
2014-08-06T02:01:05Z drmeister: So my true calling convention is FOO( MV* returnP, T* closedOverEnv, int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2)
2014-08-06T02:01:29Z drmeister: I think the 64 bit C/C++ calling convention passes up to the first 8 arguments in registers.
2014-08-06T02:02:13Z pkhuong: in that ballpark, yes.
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2014-08-06T02:02:40Z drmeister: I'm just digging around for the specs - haven't found it yet.
2014-08-06T02:02:57Z drmeister: Passing arguments in the args/values array also lets me do tail call optimization - correct?
2014-08-06T02:05:40Z pkhuong: yes.
2014-08-06T02:06:00Z drmeister: Cool.
2014-08-06T02:07:02Z drmeister: The way I've set things up, I can change the calling convention fairly easily.  Most of the behavior is in a single file so I could experiment with 3, 4 or 5 args in registers.
2014-08-06T02:08:40Z drmeister: Well this is exciting.   I also got the MPS version running again today and the folks at Ravenbrook are putting some time into optimizing it with me.
2014-08-06T02:09:13Z drmeister: There is some sort of exponential behavior going on where it slows way down as it runs.   It ends up spending >99% of its time in the system function mprotect.
2014-08-06T02:10:07Z drmeister: The good thing is that its working.   I have compacting garbage collection with C++/CL - it's got a problem though with performance.
2014-08-06T02:10:10Z pkhuong: always fun to discover you have strange allocation behaviours
2014-08-06T02:11:16Z drmeister: It's something to do with my use of multiple/virtual inheritance in C++.  It's forcing me to do dynamic casts when I fix a pointer and that requires memory shields to be lowered and then raised again.   Something about that is causing problems with MPS.
2014-08-06T02:12:31Z pkhuong: you could try and see what happens with a non-generational GC
2014-08-06T02:13:11Z drmeister: I should not have used multiple/virtual inheritance in my C++ class hierarchy.   I mimic the CL hierarchy so:   class Vector_O : public Array_O, public Sequence_O { ... };
2014-08-06T02:13:56Z drmeister: I'm not quite sure how to eliminate it at this point other than converting a lot of virtual functions to regular functions and doing the dispatch by hand the way ECL does it.
2014-08-06T02:15:14Z drmeister: Non-generational GC works fine.   I'm running with the Boehm garbage collector.
2014-08-06T02:15:21Z drmeister: In the meantime.
2014-08-06T02:15:32Z pkhuong: I'm not sure why you need read barriers
2014-08-06T02:15:55Z drmeister: It's the MPS library - that's how it works.
2014-08-06T02:16:19Z pkhuong: does ravenbrook know you have a single threaded throughput-oriented application?
2014-08-06T02:16:34Z drmeister: When you hit a read barrier the MPS library activates and does a little bit of work.
2014-08-06T02:17:34Z drmeister: Yeah. But I don't think they run any other way.   When I implement multithreading I won't have to retool the GC.
2014-08-06T02:18:26Z pkhuong: you'll have to retool way more than the GC
2014-08-06T02:19:16Z drmeister: We'll see, I don't know what's involved at this point.   I have tools though that let me refactor my C++ code like no one has had before.
2014-08-06T02:21:37Z drmeister: A couple of months ago people told me that retrofitting garbage collection would be a big job.   The big job turned out to be building a robust C++ template library for integrating C++ and Clasp, writing the static analyzer and learning how to interrogate the Clang C++ AST.
2014-08-06T02:22:49Z drmeister: I've also been keeping all of the data structures that I know will be thread local in one place.
2014-08-06T02:25:58Z drmeister: Well, as always this conversation with you has been absolute gold - thank you very much.
2014-08-06T02:26:55Z pkhuong: good luck
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2014-08-06T16:36:44Z stassats`: turns out, it's possible to trigger the classoid-typep assert without redefining anything
2014-08-06T16:39:14Z stassats`: Y inherits from X, make-instance Y, make-instance X => the layout of Y becomes invalid
2014-08-06T16:40:35Z stassats`: make-instance X can be replaced with finalize-inheritance X
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2014-08-06T18:59:46Z krzysz00: Krystof: Rebase doesn't seem to be working, mostly because I basically rewrote the normalizing reader code during a merge conflict with the other work on the reader. Any idea on how I should proceed?
2014-08-06T19:02:57Z krzysz00: One big squashed commit isn't really a satisfying solution, but I can't think of anything else that works.
2014-08-06T19:03:30Z stassats`: you can merge the rebased commits
2014-08-06T19:03:49Z pkhuong: squash, rebase, break up the result in files/patches
2014-08-06T19:06:34Z krzysz00: As in, make one large commit, rebase it, then try to cut it up into indepent changes as much as possible.
2014-08-06T19:07:10Z krzysz00: *?
2014-08-06T19:07:13Z pkhuong: yeah
2014-08-06T19:08:14Z krzysz00: Makes sense.
2014-08-06T19:08:57Z krzysz00: In my case, it would probably be new stuff (Unicode algorithms, database rewrites) separated from changes to the core (reader adjustments).
2014-08-06T19:09:07Z krzysz00: Probably could split it up further if I thought about it more.
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2014-08-06T20:10:33Z pkhuong: krzysz00: if you're lucky, there's a bunch of commits at the beginning/end of your changes that you don't even have to squash because they rebase fairly cleanly.
2014-08-06T20:14:11Z krzysz00: Ended up checking out an integration branch from master, doing `merge --squash unicode-algorithms`, and splitting that into "big pile of inderdependent things that shouldn't break anything; #\ changes; normalizing reader". The branch is https://github.com/krzysz00/sbcl/tree/ua-integration . I could probably split it up bore.
2014-08-06T20:16:29Z pkhuong: krzysz00: yeah.. why do you have a union find?
2014-08-06T20:17:02Z krzysz00: Confusable detection uses it.
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2014-08-06T20:17:30Z pkhuong: ok. but why do you need dynamic sets?
2014-08-06T20:17:57Z krzysz00: Dynamic sets?
2014-08-06T20:18:47Z pkhuong: union find is useful if you need to dynamically create and merge sets.
2014-08-06T20:18:54Z pkhuong: unicode data is static.
2014-08-06T20:20:50Z krzysz00: The sets of confusable characters are all disjoint subsets of Unicode, and a union-find was the fastest way I know of to ask "are A and B in the same confusable set?"
2014-08-06T20:21:31Z pkhuong: think about it. In particular, think about what happens to the u-f forest after very many lookups.
2014-08-06T20:24:41Z krzysz00: Degenerates into collection of entries that point directly to their representative, as I understand it.
2014-08-06T20:24:50Z pkhuong: yup.
2014-08-06T20:25:24Z pkhuong: so you only need a mapping from characters to their representative.
2014-08-06T20:26:12Z krzysz00: Good point.
2014-08-06T20:27:22Z pkhuong: you could probably save space by not having any entry when a character points to itself.
2014-08-06T20:28:23Z krzysz00: I'll make those changes.
2014-08-06T20:32:07Z pkhuong: have you tested a 32 bit build?
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2014-08-06T20:33:15Z krzysz00: No. I'll fire up my 32-bit machine and make sure nothing breaks.
2014-08-06T20:34:35Z pkhuong: you can also force a 32 bit build on x86-64
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2014-08-06T21:44:25Z krzysz00: Union-find is removed, I'm working on a 32-bit build right now.
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2014-08-06T21:53:41Z bizancio: Does SBCL supports utf-8?
2014-08-06T21:53:57Z bizancio: I'm having an issue which seems to be related to encoding, but I'm not 100% sure.
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2014-08-06T21:56:28Z |3b|: it does, but might not use it by default for some streams
2014-08-06T21:56:50Z |3b|: or some other things like environment variables
2014-08-06T21:58:37Z bizancio: Ohh, I've just found the problem... nothing related to utf-8 lol :)
2014-08-06T21:58:46Z bizancio: Sorry for bother you
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2014-08-07T02:06:28Z |3b|: is `#(,@(list 1 2 3)) => #((1 2 3)) intended?
2014-08-07T02:09:59Z |3b|: or `#(1 . ,(list 1)) => error
2014-08-07T02:13:01Z |3b|: but `#(,@(list 1) ,@(list 2 3)) => #(1 2 3)
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2014-08-07T03:02:55Z krzysz00: Ok, my branch builds on 32-bit and passes tests
2014-08-07T03:02:59Z pkhuong: the middle one, perhaps
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2014-08-07T11:26:52Z scymtym: krzysz00: i think it would be good if the commit message of 9120ae6 explained why tests/reader.pure.lisp:read-does-not-cons-per-se has to be removed
2014-08-07T11:26:52Z scymtym:  
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2014-08-07T12:32:26Z Krystof: krzysz00: per your message, I think that the rebase you've done will be enough for review to be more straightforward, so you can probably relax a bit over fighting with git
2014-08-07T12:32:50Z krzysz00: Good to know
2014-08-07T12:46:07Z pkhuong: I'll try to find time for code review tomorrow/saturday, but I have to handle some peer review that's been languishing for months :\
2014-08-07T12:54:58Z krzysz00: Thanks!
2014-08-07T12:59:22Z pkhuong: krzysz00: a non-unicode build seems in order, if you haven't done that already
2014-08-07T13:01:47Z krzysz00: Yeah, it does.
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2014-08-07T14:16:20Z scymtym: Krystof: when would be a good time for a pattern-specializer progress report?
2014-08-07T14:26:12Z krzysz00: Possibly dumb question: Why's the Unicode name database behind a #+sb-unicode ?
2014-08-07T14:31:41Z pkhuong: krzysz00: I'd guess that people who explicitly build #!-sb-unicode don't want the unicode db
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2014-08-07T15:16:18Z krzysz00: Working #-sb-unicode build pushed
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2014-08-07T15:47:55Z scymtym: krzysz00: sorry if you already addressed this somewhere but i was curios why commit 9120ae6 removes tests/reader.pure.lisp:read-does-not-cons-per-se
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2014-08-07T16:00:30Z krzysz00: Norbalizing symbols conses because it has to move the escapes around while keeping a copy of the old ones, so that test would always fail
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2014-08-07T16:01:14Z krzysz00: *Normalizing
2014-08-07T16:01:19Z |3b|: could it store things on the stack?
2014-08-07T16:07:09Z scymtym: krzysz00: thanks for the explanation. i think it would be good to add that to the commit message.
2014-08-07T16:12:09Z krzysz00: |3b|: No idea.
2014-08-07T16:30:53Z scymtym: krzysz00: you could discuss the issue with Douglas Katzman <dougk@google.com> (who implemented the non-consing behavior and added the test)
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2014-08-07T19:44:04Z Krystof: scymtym: hm, my schedule is erratic at the moment (hols).  Definitely not before Monday; after that should be possible
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2014-08-07T22:08:26Z krzysz00: I've restored the non-consing reader test after talking to Douglas about how to fix my code.
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2014-08-07T22:39:14Z PuercoPop: Oi, how do I run only one file of sbcl tests?
2014-08-07T22:39:26Z |3b|: run-tests.sh name-of-file
2014-08-07T22:39:34Z PuercoPop: thx
2014-08-07T22:39:58Z |3b|: --break-on-failure can also be useful if you expect it to fail
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2014-08-08T22:44:18Z |3b|: anyone know if there is already a bug for the `# things i mentioned the other day? launchpad doesn't seem to search on characters like that
2014-08-08T22:48:41Z |3b|: guess i should pull new changes and test that first anyway
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2014-08-08T23:19:39Z |3b|: still there, filed as https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1354606
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2014-08-08T23:33:53Z |3b|: `#(,@`#()) => #(#()) doesn't look right either
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2014-08-08T23:40:32Z |3b|: `(,@#()) should error, right? returns #() on head and 1.1.13
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2014-08-09T00:06:36Z krzysz00: Would ANSI allow the backquote system to be generalized to other sequences? That would be a reasonable extension, I think. (I'm not sure what `(,@#()) "should" do, but making it be () [and making `#(,@()) be #()] seems reasonable.)
2014-08-09T00:07:29Z |3b|: it 'should' do something like (append #() nil), which should error
2014-08-09T00:08:52Z |3b|: no idea about whether accepting it intentionally would be OK, but `(,@#() 1) errors, so one of them is wrong
2014-08-09T00:09:04Z krzysz00: Yeah.
2014-08-09T00:09:33Z |3b|: and getting #(anything) from `(anything) is pretty hard to justify
2014-08-09T00:09:41Z krzysz00: True.
2014-08-09T00:10:33Z |3b|: well, assuming nothing nonconformant in "anything"
2014-08-09T00:10:48Z |3b|: which i guess ,@#() is
2014-08-09T00:11:28Z |3b|: so possibly a "not being pedantic as expected of sbcl" bug rather than a "nonconformance" bug in that case
2014-08-09T00:12:21Z krzysz00: IIRC, ,@ means something like "(apply #'append outer-list thing-after-,@)"
2014-08-09T00:15:00Z krzysz00: I have no idea whether changing that theoritical #'append to "#'concatentate (type-of outer-sequence)" would be a conforming extension, but it doesn't seem like such a dumb idea. Of course, this has nothing to do with the bug.
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2014-08-09T00:51:29Z |3b| supposes `(#1=,(list 1 2 3) ,@#1#) probably isn't valid
2014-08-09T00:52:17Z |3b|: or at least not portable
2014-08-09T00:56:32Z |3b|: hmm, `(,.(list 1 2 3) 1) errors, that looks like a bug
2014-08-09T01:03:45Z |3b|: last one filed as https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1354623
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2014-08-09T22:59:56Z |3b|: hmm, strange... didn't get mail from launchpad about updates to last 2 bugs i filed
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2014-08-10T01:08:17Z ams: krzysz00: can you please fix your god damn client?
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2014-08-11T15:25:14Z Guest94007: I just compilied HEAD SBCL and am running tests.  parallel-fasl-load-test appears to be hung.
2014-08-11T15:25:18Z Guest94007 is now known as reb
2014-08-11T15:26:10Z reb: I might be able to connect with gdb.  Is there a command that can produce a stack trace?
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2014-08-11T15:36:34Z pkhuong: reb: thread apply all bt; t a a call backtrace_from_fp($rbp, 100)
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2014-08-11T16:47:19Z reb: Thanks!
2014-08-11T16:55:39Z reb: Looks like some kind of GC hang.  I only had to run "./run-tests.sh load.impure.lisp" 4 or 5 times before seeing the hang a second time.
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2014-08-11T17:00:50Z reb: Stack traces for the hang are here:  http://paste.lisp.org/display/143371
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2014-08-11T19:02:11Z scymtym: reb: did you build with sb-safepoint (the backtrace looks like it)? i only observed that test hanging on sb-safepoint builds so far
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2014-08-11T20:04:18Z reb: scymtym: Yes, compiled with sb-safepoint turned on.
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2014-08-11T20:05:36Z reb: I think I turned on safepoints because I thoguht they are needed for callbacks from C to Lisp.
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2014-08-11T20:09:39Z |3b|: i think they are only needed if the callbacks come from arbitrary threads, not just threads started by lisp code
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2014-08-11T20:34:22Z scymtym: reb: thanks for confirming
2014-08-11T21:05:42Z reb: |3b|: Interesting ... maybe I don't need safepoints.
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2014-08-12T02:35:05Z pkhuong: I think our memory barrier scheme isn't expressive enough
2014-08-12T02:35:44Z pkhuong: there's a lot of write barriers we have to insert on weakly ordered archs (ARM, PPC), but not for stronger memory models (mostly TSO, so SPARC and x86oids)
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2014-08-12T13:49:45Z ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof
2014-08-12T13:55:33Z krzysz00: Krystof: What's the status of my branch?
2014-08-12T14:00:56Z Krystof: I'm on holiday.  It's on my list to look at between rescuing toddlers from drowning :)
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2014-08-12T15:15:12Z snuglas: i've found that with-recursive-system-lock :without-gcing in allocate-code-object will still deadlock, but with-mutex won't. So i plan to turn that knob from "magic" to "more magic"
2014-08-12T15:29:39Z pkhuong: snuglas: not sure how I feel about that.
2014-08-12T15:30:01Z pkhuong: let's keep that as a last resort?
2014-08-12T15:30:22Z snuglas: actually 'with-mutex' only delays the inevitable - deadlock does occur after several hundred iterations of the minimal stress tester. This is beyond me now.
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2014-08-13T12:25:52Z Posterdati: hi
2014-08-13T12:26:06Z Posterdati: how is it possible to remove sbcl?
2014-08-13T12:26:22Z Posterdati: on linux, installed with source distro
2014-08-13T12:38:38Z pkhuong: rm
2014-08-13T12:40:28Z Posterdati: no
2014-08-13T12:40:39Z Posterdati: rm where?
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2014-08-13T12:46:18Z Posterdati: rm /usr/local/bin/sbcl is it suffice?
2014-08-13T12:55:32Z flip214: Posterdati: "make install" says which files are copied where.
2014-08-13T12:55:43Z flip214: run it again, redirect into a file, and substitute "rm" before
2014-08-13T12:56:28Z Posterdati: flip214: thanks, how are you?
2014-08-13T12:56:46Z flip214: good enough, thanks for asking.
2014-08-13T12:58:50Z Posterdati: is the same for the binary distro?
2014-08-13T12:59:57Z flip214: Posterdati: I normally do "apt-get install sbcl", and would use apt for removing, too
2014-08-13T13:00:20Z flip214: if you mean a .tar.gz file by "binary distro", just look which files it contains
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2014-08-13T13:00:28Z Posterdati: yes, but wheezy version is too old
2014-08-13T13:08:24Z flip214: use unstable
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2014-08-13T13:39:07Z foom: SBCL enables floating point traps; they don't get disabled around calls to C code, do they?
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2014-08-13T14:10:12Z reb: foom: You can disable them.
2014-08-13T14:10:27Z reb: ... if they are not currently disabled around calls to C.
2014-08-13T14:12:47Z reb: (sb-int:set-floating-point-modes :traps nil)
2014-08-13T14:27:46Z pkhuong: foom: not automatically, no.
2014-08-13T14:28:41Z foom: It appears that some people write C code with the assumption that fpu traps don't exist. ;p
2014-08-13T14:29:47Z foom: What's confusing me though is that the signal handler seems to not be triggering -- or at least, isn't printing anything. The process is just silently dying with SIGFPE.
2014-08-13T14:30:10Z foom: I'd have expected sbcl's sigfpe handler to trigger even if it was in the middle of some C code
2014-08-13T14:40:53Z pkhuong: it should...
2014-08-13T14:47:03Z foom: Hm. Maybe it was in a non-lisp thread?
2014-08-13T14:47:36Z foom: No, even then it should at least not be exiting with signal 8, it might lose some other way.
2014-08-13T14:49:29Z pkhuong: foom: what if foreign code spawned a new thread? do threads inherit their parent's mask?
2014-08-13T14:49:48Z foom: The foreign code does spawn a thread.
2014-08-13T14:49:59Z foom: I don't know, probably so?
2014-08-13T14:50:43Z pkhuong: there you go (:
2014-08-13T14:50:55Z foom: I don't think that explains it?
2014-08-13T14:51:18Z foom: SBCL's signal handler ought still be in effect for the foreign thread too
2014-08-13T15:00:46Z foom: Hmm. I guess SIGFPE could be blocked when the error occurs.
2014-08-13T15:02:02Z foom: Not sure why it'd be blocked though
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2014-08-13T17:29:48Z krzysz00: Krystof: What do I need to do before my GSoC work is merged?
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2014-08-14T08:15:16Z Krystof: krzysz00: at the moment, I think you're fine to just wait.  As I said, I'm on holiday (with pretty spotty internet access), and I'll review as soon as I can
2014-08-14T08:15:26Z Krystof: I'll mail if there are more actions for you!
2014-08-14T08:15:29Z Krystof: thanks
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2014-08-14T18:45:57Z cracauer: hullo
2014-08-14T18:47:47Z cracauer: is there a better way to give me the Lisp object at <x>, where I currently have <x> as an integer, than going through funcall1?
2014-08-14T18:47:52Z cracauer: still messing with the GC.
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2014-08-15T22:27:58Z christoph_debian: ajo!
2014-08-15T22:28:19Z christoph_debian: dot seems to be a bit more picky recently -> https://pbot.rmdir.de/i5BTe7pFJBa7cdKUDqow6g (if that's not autogenerated / already fixed)
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2014-08-15T22:33:09Z christoph_debian: I'll send a nice patch to launchpad in a minute
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2014-08-16T12:11:50Z christoph_debian: should sbcl handle arm64?
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2014-08-16T15:08:06Z pkhuong: christoph_debian: it certainly won't generate an arm64 binary
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2014-08-16T19:24:07Z jackdaniel: is there any ongoing effort to incorporate threads to arm port?
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2014-08-16T20:53:53Z pkhuong: not explicitly, afaik. generational gc has been integrated, so that's one completed prereq
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2014-08-16T22:04:30Z christoph_debian: pkhuong: alright then
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2014-08-16T22:09:31Z drmeister: What do SBCL environments look like?   How are they represented?  ECL uses simple CONSes.
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2014-08-16T22:10:41Z drmeister: Mine may be too heavy-weight - each environment is a hash table that maps symbols to integer indices and the integer indices index into activation frames (arrays of values).
2014-08-16T22:11:00Z Bike: at runtime or what?
2014-08-16T22:11:06Z drmeister: Compile time
2014-08-16T22:12:05Z Bike: i think sbcl just uses alists, at least for the pre-compile ones
2014-08-16T22:12:30Z drmeister: This may sound unrelated but it may not be.   I'm still trying to get MPS to work efficiently.   I removed multiple inheritance/internal pointers from my implementation.  I'm profiling my code when it compiles itself and it spends a lot of time allocating lots of environments.
2014-08-16T22:12:41Z Bike: as in sb-c::lexenv-find
2014-08-16T22:12:57Z Bike: i imagine during compile things are more complicated, with lvars and stuff, but i don't think they're exactly "environments"
2014-08-16T22:13:11Z drmeister: What are lvars?
2014-08-16T22:13:51Z Bike: an IR1 thing I don't understand. "linear variable". in compiler/node.lisp
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2014-08-16T22:16:10Z drmeister: Well, MPS is still a dog even after I did a heroic amount of work and removed internal pointers and eliminated dynamic casting and shield removal/restoration from pointer updating during GC.
2014-08-16T22:17:13Z drmeister: The Boehm GC runs surprisingly efficiently when compared to reference counting and MPS.
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2014-08-16T22:18:07Z drmeister: And MPS works but it gets slower and slower and slower as it runs to the point where it gets only about 20% through compiling the CL source code and it's so bogged down that there is no point in allowing it to continue.
2014-08-16T22:19:10Z drmeister: With the Boehm GC it just zips along and gets faster and faster and faster as the compiler compiles itself and replaces interpreted functions with compiled functions.
2014-08-16T22:19:52Z drmeister: It is frustrating.
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2014-08-17T23:35:15Z slyrus: Hexstream: Ok, you'll probably catch the attention of more SBCL developers here than on twitter
2014-08-17T23:35:46Z Hexstream: Yeah, well, I can't believe this thing needs explaining. o_o
2014-08-17T23:36:04Z Hexstream: Maybe I've been relying on the assumption of simple cons-walkability more than most.
2014-08-17T23:37:10Z slyrus: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm seems pretty explicit about the fact that implementations have some latitude in how the represent backquoted forms
2014-08-17T23:38:22Z slyrus: and, while I can see generally where things break down in plambda, I'm still not seeing a simple test case
2014-08-17T23:39:20Z Hexstream: Certainly, I'm not disputing that. And the amount of latitude taken by implementations for decades has been just fine. But SBCL's hiding user-supplied code inside an implementation-dependent, self-evaluating object is going beyond "latitude".
2014-08-17T23:41:20Z Hexstream: Well, I'm guessing any simple test case would be met with "you're supposed to fully walk and macroexpand all the code, idiot". I'm trying to come up with a simple test case that wouldn't be so contrived as to be completely unappealing...
2014-08-17T23:45:21Z pkhuong: I hope you realize that the reason for the new implementation isn't that it's perfect, but that we consider it's overall better than the old one.
2014-08-17T23:49:08Z Hexstream: pkhuong: Well, I was certainly more satisfied with the old one. It may have gotten tricky advanced things wrong, but at least what I consider "basic usage" worked.
2014-08-17T23:50:38Z Hexstream: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143429
2014-08-17T23:51:02Z pkhuong: We disagree on basic usage.
2014-08-17T23:51:55Z pkhuong: Hexstream: sorry. disagree that this code snippet is or should be guaranteed to do anything.
2014-08-17T23:52:18Z Hexstream: That's crazy.
2014-08-17T23:54:31Z pkhuong: ok
2014-08-17T23:55:35Z Hexstream: pkhuong: How is NEGATIFY violating the specification?
2014-08-17T23:55:39Z |3b|: doesn't negate things in a #() vector either
2014-08-17T23:56:18Z pkhuong: should it negate things in a `#() vector?
2014-08-17T23:56:38Z Hexstream: Yeah, I could handle that case portably.
2014-08-17T23:56:51Z pkhuong: frankly, the meaning of this macro is exactly what it ends up doing, nothing more or less
2014-08-17T23:57:27Z Hexstream: I'm sorry that I didn't include an iron-clad specification along with my throwaway test-case macro.
2014-08-17T23:57:55Z pkhuong: it's also exactly the kind of macros that makes language extensions hard to compose, so you won't get much philosophical support from me either.
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2014-08-18T00:32:09Z Hexstream: pkhuong: I guess I don't need your "philosophical support" as long as my code is fully standards-compliant, which it is. Unless you can prove otherwise?
2014-08-18T00:35:08Z pkhuong: I never said otherwise.
2014-08-18T00:35:13Z pkhuong: Does the program crash?
2014-08-18T00:35:16Z pkhuong: Does it error out?
2014-08-18T00:35:49Z Hexstream: What does (negatify `(+ ,2 ,3)) do on new SBCL? I don't have it yet.
2014-08-18T00:36:29Z pkhuong: Your contention doesn't regard the macro's standard compliance, but its semantics. I maintain that the standard does not define that, only that the macro will return something.
2014-08-18T00:37:15Z Hexstream: ??? You lost me.
2014-08-18T00:37:54Z Bike: pkhuong means that your macro is guaranteed to "work" on a backquote form, since it's just a form of some kind, but that there's no guarantee in the standard that you'll get the result you say you should
2014-08-18T00:38:16Z Bike: like, there's no reason backquote couldn't return some form that uses integers in it, for whatever reason, and your macro would "negate" those too.
2014-08-18T00:40:31Z Hexstream: You're saying `(foo ,bar) could have integers even if the value of bar doesn't have any integers? Nonsense.
2014-08-18T00:40:39Z Bike: why is it nonsense
2014-08-18T00:40:47Z Bike: the standard says "
2014-08-18T00:40:54Z Bike: "An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that, when evaluated, will produce a result that is the same under equal as the result implied by the above definition, provided that the side-effect behavior of the substitute form F2 is also consistent with the description given above"
2014-08-18T00:40:59Z Bike: Not "no more integers allowed"
2014-08-18T00:41:37Z Hexstream: I think that part of the spec is being fetishized beyond reason.
2014-08-18T00:42:53Z Bike: it just doesn't define what implementations' forms are like, is all. you're assuming some definition that doesn't exist.
2014-08-18T00:44:38Z Hexstream: The spec does define what a form is, however. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aba.htm "Forms fall into three categories: symbols, conses, and self-evaluating objects."
2014-08-18T00:44:46Z Bike: yeah?
2014-08-18T00:44:54Z Bike: that's why your macro is defined to return something rather than erroring.
2014-08-18T00:44:57Z Bike: like i dunno, you could imagine an implementation reading `#(,b c d e f g) as (let ((some-gensym (make-array 6 :initial-contents '(nil c d e f g)))) (setf (aref some-gensym 0) b)). weird, but i don't see what would ban it.
2014-08-18T00:45:07Z pkhuong: It also defines form: "form n. 1. any object meant to be evaluated. "
2014-08-18T00:45:12Z Hexstream: Backquote is supposed to return a form, but the problem is that #<unquote> is clearly a self-evaluating object, but also wants to "act like a cons"...
2014-08-18T00:45:21Z pkhuong: Hexstream: backquote does return a form.
2014-08-18T00:45:29Z Hexstream: But not a valid form.
2014-08-18T00:45:36Z pkhuong: Extremely valid
2014-08-18T00:45:53Z pkhuong: so valid that it evaluates
2014-08-18T00:45:56Z Hexstream: Form evaluation stops at self-evaluating objects.
2014-08-18T00:46:06Z Hexstream: The recursion stops there.
2014-08-18T00:46:18Z pkhuong: I think you'd make a better case if you installed the new version.
2014-08-18T00:47:04Z Hexstream: I'm already busy preparing to upgrade to Ubuntu 14.04. I'll install the latest SBCL then...
2014-08-18T00:47:07Z pkhuong: You could then discover that, as I have pointed out multiple times, backquote does read into a cons.
2014-08-18T00:47:10Z Hexstream: at that time, Imean.
2014-08-18T00:47:35Z Hexstream: What about those #<unquote> objects that hide user code?
2014-08-18T00:48:16Z pkhuong: they're not meant to be evaluated; they're meant to be substituted by the backquote macro.
2014-08-18T00:48:16Z Hexstream: These things are self-evaluating objects, yet they want to get recursed into as if they were conses. That's nonsensical.
2014-08-18T00:48:54Z pkhuong: Perhaps in your hypothetical SBCL fork.
2014-08-18T00:49:23Z Bike: so i don't have new sbcl at the moment, but it seems that ` is now read as (backquote ...stuff...)? stuff can be anything convenient, then, it's not like it's being normally evaluated
2014-08-18T00:50:02Z Hexstream: I've got a feeling that if I made a macro that hid user code inside arbitrary non-cons objects, *even as part of an intermediary expansion step*, I'd get laughed at, with reason.
2014-08-18T00:51:08Z Bike: why? there's a reason codewalkers have to expand everything, macros can have whatever semantics they want
2014-08-18T00:56:00Z Hexstream: Backquote couldn't even pull off this nonsense if it was a regular macro, which it might as well be.
2014-08-18T00:56:14Z pkhuong: backquote is a regular macro. ` is a read macro.
2014-08-18T00:57:10Z Hexstream: Yes, and ` is abusing its position as a reader-macro instead of a regular macro to hide user-code inside implementation-dependent objects before any macroexpansion is done.
2014-08-18T00:57:31Z Bike: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/c334ac6654162fb5f7debe69b150b92fde8d69a5/src/code/backq.lisp#L98-L117 looks fine to me
2014-08-18T00:57:46Z Bike: probably doesn't even need implementation support, could just define some structs
2014-08-18T00:58:35Z Hexstream: Bike: That's irrelevant. I meant that the code is hidden inside non-conses.
2014-08-18T00:58:51Z Bike: forms, one might say.
2014-08-18T01:01:06Z Hexstream: As I said earlier, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aba.htm says that "Forms fall into three categories: symbols, conses, and self-evaluating objects." but #<unquote> is a self-evaluating object that hides code that must still be recursed into to be processed (ex: compiled)
2014-08-18T01:01:18Z Bike: What's (eval #<unquote>) do.
2014-08-18T01:01:35Z Bike: I have a guess.
2014-08-18T01:01:36Z Hexstream: It returns the object, I presume.
2014-08-18T01:02:09Z Bike: the COMMA struct is defined with a normal defstruct. (eval #<unquote>) will get you the #<unquote>.
2014-08-18T01:02:23Z Bike: unless they changed the evaluator for no reason?
2014-08-18T01:02:26Z pkhuong: it's also not "meant to be evaluated"
2014-08-18T01:02:40Z Hexstream: It's not a form, then?
2014-08-18T01:03:10Z Hexstream: Then anything that includes it in a to-be-evaluated position is not a form either, right?...
2014-08-18T01:03:28Z Hexstream: Like that thing that the backquote reader-macro returns.
2014-08-18T01:04:09Z Bike: there aren't any lisp objects that aren't forms, i don't think. it's just a self-evaluating object. seeing as how it evaluates to itself.
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2014-08-18T01:04:20Z Bike: it's not like the backquote macro is no-op.
2014-08-18T01:04:25Z pkhuong: I don't know what implementation you're referring to, but on my SBCL, macros are expanded normal order before evaluation.
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2014-08-18T01:17:12Z csziacobus: can someone clarify the difference between the terms "backquote" and "quasiquote"? the implementation of backquote seems to use the terms interchangeably
2014-08-18T01:18:54Z pkhuong: csziacobus: there isn't. backquote is the syntax for quasiquote
2014-08-18T01:19:29Z pkhuong: The term quasiquotation makes sense, unlike backquotation ;)
2014-08-18T01:19:41Z csziacobus: pkhuong: so basically, backquote refers to the reader macro that exapnds into the actual quasiquote macro?
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2014-08-18T01:20:48Z pkhuong: The two terms are pretty much used interchangeably.
2014-08-18T01:21:40Z |3b| suspects "quasiquote" is a more general term that applies outside CL, but not much difference in the context of CL
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2014-08-18T01:22:44Z csziacobus: |3b|: i recall quasiquote being the schemers word for ` while backquote being more a cl thing
2014-08-18T01:23:18Z |3b|: yeah, i think some other languages use the term as well
2014-08-18T01:24:32Z pkhuong: formal writing tends to use quasiquote and might refer specifically to the syntax that introduce quasiquotations as backquote.
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2014-08-18T07:09:57Z ams: neither the standard, nor cltl use the name quasiquote, even if you look at the backquote implementation in cltl2 "quasiquote" as a term is never used.
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2014-08-18T12:12:15Z Krystof: there's something in Hexstream's rants that reminds me of an old Erik Naggum thread, but I don't actually remember which
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2014-08-18T16:39:34Z krzysz00: I've just force-pushed an update to ua-integration that rebases it onto the current master.
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2014-08-18T19:47:32Z White_Flame: Hi, I'm getting some older code from sbcl 1.1.x running on the latest sbcl, and there was a change in quasiquote handling which is killing me
2014-08-18T19:47:37Z White_Flame: well, killing my code
2014-08-18T19:48:02Z White_Flame: My code is going through source code, looking for symbols starting with a question mark, replacing them with a structure
2014-08-18T19:48:39Z White_Flame: using a regular cons tree walker, I could find the symbols in `(?foo ,(bar ?baz)) before:
2014-08-18T19:48:48Z White_Flame: (:BACKQ-LIST (:QUOTE #<?ABC>) (:FOO #<?BAR>))
2014-08-18T19:48:58Z White_Flame: But now, the clause inside the comma is opaque to a cons walker:
2014-08-18T19:49:06Z White_Flame: (:QUASIQUOTE (#<?ABC> ,(FOO ?BAR)))
2014-08-18T19:49:17Z White_Flame: What is the container for the comma clause, and how could I introspect into it?
2014-08-18T19:49:28Z Bike: macroexpand the whole thing first?
2014-08-18T19:51:20Z White_Flame: hmm, I'm going to have to think on that one, whether or not the macros exist at that time
2014-08-18T19:51:46Z Bike: no, i mean for the backquote macro.
2014-08-18T19:51:50Z White_Flame: Is introspection of the raw source form possible, with whatever the comma reader macro inserts?
2014-08-18T19:52:38Z White_Flame: ok, I could likely put a check for the particular quasiquote macro and expand that if it's found
2014-08-18T19:56:29Z White_Flame: my tree walker actually doesn't pass around the conses, just the contents, so that'd be a retooling of that subsystem
2014-08-18T19:56:54Z White_Flame: raw pre-macroexpand introspection would still be my preferred option
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2014-08-18T20:00:05Z slyrus: White_Flame: you could take a look at fare-quasiquote and see if that helps you
2014-08-18T20:02:08Z White_Flame: slyrus: that would replace the built-in readtable?
2014-08-18T20:02:24Z White_Flame: ok, I see the in-readtable
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2014-08-18T20:52:33Z Krystof: White_Flame: the short answer is that code that assumes that the backquote reader macro produces exclusively conses is not conforming
2014-08-18T20:53:35Z Krystof: you could (a) hack your thing to understand the structs that are in the new sbcl backquote implementation, or (b) use a proper code walker to walk the code properly, which will cause your questionmark handler to break slightly less often
2014-08-18T20:53:57Z Krystof: krzysz00: thanks.  Still on holiday.  Still likely to work on it soon
2014-08-18T20:54:49Z Krystof: White_Flame: fundamentally things that just do cons walking are broken in the face of arbitrary (if unusual) CL code
2014-08-18T20:55:37Z Krystof: e.g. (defmacro foo (x) `(let ((,(aref x 0) (aref x 1))) ,@(aref x 2))) (foo #(?x 1 (+ ?x 1)))
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2014-08-18T20:56:11Z Krystof: modulo my failure to get the example exactly right.
2014-08-18T20:57:15Z Krystof: (defmacro foo (x) `(let ((,(aref x 0) ,(aref x 1))) ,(aref x 2))) (foo #(x ?x (+ x 1)))
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2014-08-18T20:57:27Z Krystof: that's more likely to be problematic if you don't codewalk correctly
2014-08-18T20:59:47Z Krystof: (and once you "fix" that realise that I can do the same thing with arbitrary structs)
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2014-08-18T21:11:28Z White_Flame: Krystof:  What is the correct methodology for codewalking?
2014-08-18T21:11:42Z White_Flame: btw, thanks slyrus, looks like fare-quasiquote is solving the same problem I am
2014-08-18T21:12:51Z Bike: are you trying to walk completely arbitrary forms or what?
2014-08-18T21:13:48Z White_Flame: yes, our language in admin code allows you to drop in arbitrary Lisp blocks.  The issue here is providing a convenience to have that Lisp code directly refer to ?variables in the above custom code
2014-08-18T21:13:56Z White_Flame: s/admin code/admin mode/
2014-08-18T21:14:22Z White_Flame: and one of those lisp blocks happens to use backquotes
2014-08-18T21:14:36Z White_Flame: with ?vars inside a comma'd form
2014-08-18T21:15:18Z Bike: Can you not just do (let ((?var [your struct thing])) [the code])?
2014-08-18T21:17:00Z White_Flame: yes, I need to generate that let statement
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2014-08-18T21:17:14Z White_Flame: thus, the need to introspect the code, and what's inside the comma'd forms
2014-08-18T21:17:32Z Bike: oh, to see what ?vars exist, you mean.
2014-08-18T21:17:36Z White_Flame: yep
2014-08-18T21:18:17Z Bike: maybe you could have users just say up front what ?vars show up in the block, and save yourself the trouble of code walking?
2014-08-18T21:19:08Z White_Flame: We tend to take the view of making features happen, not bend features to ease of implementation
2014-08-18T21:19:39Z White_Flame: so even if it's harder to implement, we would rather have the convenience of automatic detection of the variable usage
2014-08-18T21:20:12Z Bike: or maybe a read macro on ?.
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2014-08-18T21:22:24Z White_Flame: yes, that's another possibility.  We use various scopes & detections of ? all over the code, so containing it to a function which reads a provided block, as opposed to modifying the reader, would be much less error-prone
2014-08-18T21:23:40Z White_Flame: though yeah, containing its scope might also be feasible here
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2014-08-18T21:24:10Z White_Flame: I'm just curious as to what the codewalking Krystof was referring to is
2014-08-18T21:24:32Z Bike: Probably a full on lisp codewalker. Watching for special operators and macroexpanding and such.
2014-08-18T21:24:49Z Bike: and yeah i just meant a reader for user blocks, not your own code base
2014-08-18T21:25:04Z White_Flame: but we have a lot of literal ? forms in our own code base as well
2014-08-18T21:25:19Z White_Flame: so the support would have to be in our raw .lisp files, too
2014-08-18T21:25:37Z White_Flame: hence the desire to just pass around source code "lists" and deal with them post
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2014-08-18T21:30:41Z White_Flame: seeing the fare-quasiquote output now, yeah that seems to listify everything, and the goal of that project is to standardized quasiquoted form, so it looks to be a solution for the model we're desiring
2014-08-18T21:31:04Z White_Flame: however, as Krystof mentioned, there might be other future edge cases where some non-cons nested source code elements are injected somehow
2014-08-18T21:32:35Z White_Flame: One complaint I've had about CL is that literal array syntax does not evaluate its terms.  I guess stuff like that would be a monkey wrench in these gears if they did.
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2014-08-18T22:43:10Z pkhuong: White_Flame: (vector ...)
2014-08-18T22:57:38Z pkhuong: or the surprisingly obscure `#(,x ,y)
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2014-08-18T23:19:58Z cracauer: why would (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address (gethash *weaktable* 'foo))
2014-08-18T23:20:06Z cracauer: deliver a different address every time?
2014-08-18T23:20:39Z cracauer: when the object returned is a cons cell
2014-08-18T23:22:58Z cracauer: hmmm, except it doesn't for an isolated example
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2014-08-19T00:34:39Z pkhuong: cracauer: copying gc.
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2014-08-19T00:50:07Z wmarvel: threads is not supported on arm. Is getting check-and-swap-vops working, by defining the ldrex / strex (and such) instructions and then defining the vops that check-and-swap-vops a reasonable point to start? (I haven't really poked around sbcl internals before today)
2014-08-19T00:56:14Z pkhuong: wmarvel: sure. PPC is probably the closest backend if you need inspiration
2014-08-19T01:05:12Z wmarvel: ok, good. I'll see what I can do then (although I can't guarantee anything as real-job sucks up a lot of time)
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2014-08-19T01:59:40Z White_Flame: pkhuong: and fare-quasiquote does support `#(,x) which is nice to see
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2014-08-19T03:30:10Z pkhuong: White_Flame: fare-quasiquote supports all the standard stuff.
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2014-08-19T03:54:22Z White_Flame: yep, except it crashes on quickloading it in sbcl 1.2.2
2014-08-19T03:54:46Z White_Flame sent a bug report to Fare
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2014-08-19T08:05:47Z prxq: Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package. ;; but it's my fault for going all bleeding edge with sbcl and slime
2014-08-19T08:09:06Z _8hzp`: ... that sounds a lot like a recent-ish change, but AFAIK it didn't take long for swank to get updated for it.  Is your swank really bleeding edge?
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2014-08-19T08:12:48Z prxq: got it from cvs.
2014-08-19T08:12:56Z prxq: hmm....
2014-08-19T08:14:12Z prxq: trying with the git version
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2014-08-19T08:14:35Z prxq: yes that works
2014-08-19T08:16:20Z prxq: the cvs repository seems to be stale.
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2014-08-19T11:20:57Z prxq: I get "dot context error" when compiling this file http://pastebin.com/cCwdHLRi in sbcl head
2014-08-19T11:21:40Z prxq: hm maybe it is slime
2014-08-19T11:24:42Z prxq: gah sorry, got it
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2014-08-19T19:32:46Z cracauer: pkhuong, wrt different addresses out of weak hash tables. That is with no GC in between :)
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2014-08-19T19:39:54Z cracauer: oh. Because I'm confused. Never mind and thanks.
2014-08-19T19:40:37Z cracauer: ouch, that was an expensive piece of confusion
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2014-08-19T21:02:00Z White_Flame: I think I isolated my problem with trying to load fare-quasiquote.  I believe it's because SBCL is bunded with an old ASDF, which seems to have an internal bug.
2014-08-19T21:02:22Z White_Flame: is contrib/asdf/pull-asdf.sh intended to be run as part of the SBCL build process?
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2014-08-19T21:06:51Z jsnell: not afaik. it's for a maintainer to update the bundled asdf, and then commit to the sbcl repo
2014-08-19T21:08:42Z White_Flame: I'm assuming the best course of action is to replace the contrib/asdf directory with a new version, then rebuild sbcl from source
2014-08-19T21:09:06Z White_Flame: in terms of getting things working for now
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2014-08-19T22:45:10Z pkhuong: White_Flame: ASDF should be upgradable in place
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2014-08-20T17:41:44Z jackdaniel: how does sbcl handle unicode pathnames? converts them to utf-8 or something bit more sphisticated?
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2014-08-20T17:52:59Z Krystof: "not very sophisticated" is likely to be the current state
2014-08-20T17:53:18Z Krystof: basically, it's a mess.  Not helped by some platforms which don't enforce filesystem normalization or anything
2014-08-20T18:03:07Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2014-08-20T20:44:03Z _8hzp`: ICBW, but my recollection is that many or most of the win32 backend filesystem operations these days use *W functions, i.e. wide strings.
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2014-08-20T20:48:05Z _8hzp`: (For POSIX, my belief is that using UTF-8 unconditionally for filenames would be the right thing to do (even if environment variables suggest a different encoding for other stuff).  But the issue is how to avoid errors when parsing arbitrary filenames, i.e. how to represent invalid UTF-8 sequences.  Did any of the old plans for that ever get anywhere?)
2014-08-20T20:51:43Z ams: _8hzp`: POSIX does not support UTF-8.
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2014-08-20T20:57:11Z ams: so using utf-8 for posix is out right wrong, because that is not posix.
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2014-08-20T20:57:33Z _8hzp`: Unless I misunderstand that statement, would you agree that it is compatible with UTF-8B though?
2014-08-20T20:58:15Z ams: no
2014-08-20T21:00:29Z ams: what is allowed in a POSIX portable file name are "A-Za-z0-9._-", nothing else.
2014-08-20T21:01:01Z ams: (yes, space is not allowed!)
2014-08-20T21:03:05Z _8hzp`: OK, that makes sense.  But why worry about whether a filename is portable across all implementations of POSIX at all?
2014-08-20T21:03:13Z _8hzp`: What has been discussed in the context of SBCL before is more "what should we do to support filenames the way most modern applications on POSIXy platforms use them", I'd say.
2014-08-20T21:03:32Z ams: support it when locale is specified to something utf-8.
2014-08-20T21:04:01Z ams: as for why, cause i'll stop using sbcl because it will not be portable.
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2014-08-20T21:05:07Z fe[nl]ix: ams: you should not declaim such threats lightly
2014-08-20T21:05:23Z ams: i didn't.
2014-08-20T21:07:25Z fe[nl]ix: I'm certain the people around here are terrified of you not using SBCL
2014-08-20T21:09:32Z fe[nl]ix: hi _8hzp` :)
2014-08-20T21:10:01Z fe[nl]ix: UTF-8b would be a good idea
2014-08-20T21:10:15Z ams: no it wouldn't, not for posix conformance, since that is not conformant.
2014-08-20T21:10:50Z fe[nl]ix: yes it is
2014-08-20T21:11:35Z ams: space is included in utf-8b, which is not part of a posix portable file name.
2014-08-20T21:11:51Z ams: @ is part of it, ~ as well, which are also not part of a portable file name.
2014-08-20T21:11:57Z fe[nl]ix: POSIX mandates the set you specified and allows all additions as implementation-specific
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2014-08-20T21:12:33Z ams: so we agree, it does not help for posix conformance.
2014-08-20T21:12:43Z fe[nl]ix: so any addition is conformant
2014-08-20T21:13:00Z ams: "help".
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2014-08-20T21:14:31Z ams: would most probobly also break things on windows or something silly
2014-08-20T21:16:10Z fe[nl]ix: win32 is not posix
2014-08-20T21:17:29Z ams: afak, windows is posix compliant
2014-08-20T21:17:48Z ams: then, i odn't use windows so ...
2014-08-20T21:18:22Z p_l: ams: in posix environment. SBCL/win32 uses win32 environment
2014-08-20T21:18:33Z ams: maybe it was nt? go figure.
2014-08-20T21:20:02Z p_l: ams: NT supports different environments. One of them (little known except for "NT is POSIX compliant! <laugh>") is posix.dll, another is win32, there are some "native" applications that directly talk NT API (rare, except for code implementing win32 api userland)
2014-08-20T21:20:44Z ams: p_l: ah, thanks, i never used windows in my life so :-)
2014-08-20T21:21:49Z p_l: WINNT native paths are UTF-16 (or UCS-2 if you run older versions). Not sure about byte order and normalization
2014-08-20T21:22:37Z p_l: plus by default windows will compare (but only compare!) paths case-insensitive
2014-08-20T21:22:42Z p_l: AFAIK OSX does the same
2014-08-20T21:23:15Z p_l: OSX also flips out if you use different normalization than formD, I think
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2014-08-20T21:23:45Z drmeister: Is there a version of SBCL that uses the Boehm garbage collector on X86 Linux or OS X?
2014-08-20T21:24:50Z drmeister: I'm starting to get timings comparing my system using the Boehm garbage collector vs the MPS garbage collector.   I'd love to know how SBCL's compacting garbage collector compares to SBCL with the Boehm GC.
2014-08-20T21:25:20Z p_l: I don't think Boehm was ever an option in SBCL/CMUCL
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2014-08-20T21:25:36Z drmeister: (sigh)
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2014-08-20T21:25:56Z p_l: I actually suspect the GC code origins are older than boehm...
2014-08-20T21:26:38Z ams: i wouldn't be suprised if it is older than python..
2014-08-20T21:27:21Z p_l: ams: python the language or python the cmu-derived compiler? :)
2014-08-20T21:27:24Z drmeister: Boehm is pretty fast except it fragments memory and throws up warnings when it runs my C++ static analyzer for too long.   I can't rely on it to run with a well defined memory footprint so I incorporated the Memory Pool System (MPS) garbage collector as well.   MPS is a compacting garbage collector.
2014-08-20T21:27:40Z ams: p_l: cmu ofcourse :-)
2014-08-20T21:28:05Z drmeister: Does the SBCL GC on x86 use memory read barriers?
2014-08-20T21:28:16Z drmeister: hardware barriers like mprotect?
2014-08-20T21:28:56Z ams: drmeister: http://www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/Timrep.pdf might be of interest
2014-08-20T21:29:00Z drmeister: MPS does, they are expensive on OS X
2014-08-20T21:29:24Z drmeister: ams: Thank you.
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2014-08-20T21:30:06Z drmeister: bbl
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2014-08-20T21:33:43Z drmeister: 1985 - is that still relevant in this age of 64bit and multi-level caches?
2014-08-20T21:34:05Z ams: drmeister: for a historical overview, yeah, i think it is...
2014-08-20T21:34:47Z ams: drmeister: and since you are benchmarking, the part about GC heavy code can be of interest
2014-08-20T21:34:52Z p_l: drmeister: possibly. 64bit doesn't change much, cache architectures change more and there are specific papers on those
2014-08-20T21:35:27Z drmeister: I love the preface.  Wonderful.
2014-08-20T21:36:26Z ams: and really, i think it is mandatory reading for anyone doing lisp work :-)
2014-08-20T21:36:29Z drmeister: My lisp does about 2 million allocations/second when it's compiling itself.  I'm not going anywhere with that, just remarking.
2014-08-20T21:36:52Z drmeister: ams: I appreciate it very much.  Thank you.
2014-08-20T21:38:47Z drmeister: Gotta run, I'll read it over tonight.
2014-08-20T21:40:30Z ams: there was a paper about beating the gabriel benchmarks ..
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2014-08-20T22:21:41Z drmeister: ams: What are the gabriel benchmarks?
2014-08-20T22:24:45Z drmeister: No worries, I used the Google to find them.
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2014-08-21T20:22:07Z drmeister: How does SBCL handle MAPHASH with its compacting garbage collector.  How do you prevent the #'EQ hash table from being rehashed while running MAPHASH over it?    Or do you generate a key/value pair list for the hash table and MAPHASH over that?   Or do you suspend the garbage collector during MAPHASH?
2014-08-21T20:24:22Z Bicyclidine: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/fa4a625bc584350543f30bb1712900e509f768be/src/code/target-hash-table.lisp#L1000-L1028 don't see anything too special, i'm not sure though
2014-08-21T20:25:47Z Bicyclidine: it gets the kv-vector again for every value, maybe that's relevant
2014-08-21T20:26:44Z drmeister: Do you have any idea what the "We are running without locking or WITHOUT-GCING." means?
2014-08-21T20:27:14Z jsnell: the hashtables are designed such that a gc doesn't invalidate the iteration through it
2014-08-21T20:27:38Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: well yeah it means there aren't locks (for multithread) or a gc ban.
2014-08-21T20:27:46Z jsnell: it's just invalidated for keyed accesses
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2014-08-21T20:28:57Z Bicyclidine: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/fa4a625bc584350543f30bb1712900e509f768be/src/code/hash-table.lisp#L121-L122 and, rehashing
2014-08-21T20:30:37Z jsnell: that's a different case, nothing to do with gc
2014-08-21T20:32:04Z Bicyclidine: well meister asked about rehashing.
2014-08-21T20:32:56Z jsnell: no, he asked about the interaction of eq hashtables and copying gc, which does happen to be an awkward combination
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2014-08-21T20:45:06Z drmeister: Thank you both - I think I found a temporary fix that may actually be the right fix.   I just posted it in #lisp.
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2014-08-23T04:44:37Z christoph_debian: hm a link to the git web thing (from somewhere on sbcl.org) would be great ;-) so I don't need to search through sf for reading commitlogs every time
2014-08-23T04:45:36Z christoph_debian: I know I could use my git clone but .. ;-)
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2014-08-23T13:48:50Z |3b| notices a test run i started earlier ended with "Failure:            threads.impure.lisp / LURKING-THREADS"
2014-08-23T13:56:04Z |3b|: and seems repeatable
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2014-08-23T14:03:42Z |3b|: ok, maybe 50%
2014-08-23T14:12:35Z |3b|: hmm, might just be too sensitive test?
2014-08-23T14:17:17Z |3b|: yeah, running it separately the 0 thread case varies by more than the allowed amount by itself
2014-08-23T14:17:51Z |3b| isn't sure why i managed to hit it 3 times out of 5 today though, unless it is a new test
2014-08-23T14:23:50Z |3b|: nope, seems old... guess i should try a clean build and make sure i didn't break things locally :)
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2014-08-24T06:59:23Z |3b|: filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1360760 for test failure mentioned yesterday (seems to just be bad test)
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2014-08-24T15:51:48Z wmarvel: http://pastebin.com/NXemRmXB <-- does that seem rational? (for arm)
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2014-08-25T02:19:47Z csziacobus: i'd like to contribute a bit in sbcl, is there anything a real beginner could try to fix?
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2014-08-25T03:52:53Z pkhuong: wmarvel: arm has a precise moving garbage collector
2014-08-25T03:53:39Z pkhuong: you probably want to use offset memory access to handle GC interruptions safely. see cell.lisp for examples.
2014-08-25T03:55:55Z pkhuong: also, the default lifetimes for VOP variables lets results and arguments alias arbitrarily
2014-08-25T03:57:55Z pkhuong: I'd take a look at the PPC VOPs: ARM has a similar memory model. We guarantee that CAS is also a membar
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2014-08-25T04:17:27Z wmarvel: well, ldrex and strex take registers holding the address
2014-08-25T04:17:40Z wmarvel: :CODEGEN-INFO (%COMPARE-AND-SWAP-C
2014-08-25T04:17:45Z wmarvel: oops
2014-08-25T04:19:18Z wmarvel: Basically, what I was trying to do is take object, add the right offset to it, so I have a reg with the right address - I was assuming I couldn't hammer object directly.
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2014-08-25T04:24:07Z wmarvel: ldrex doesn't have an offset addressing mode the way ldr does (and the way lwarx does, I think, although I kind of just skimmed some docs on the instruction), basically
2014-08-25T04:25:48Z wmarvel: at least not in armv6
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2014-08-25T04:31:50Z wmarvel: so I think what I have to do is build the pointer in a way that the GC doesn't break if the code gets interrupted
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2014-08-25T06:59:40Z wmarvel: maybe using (:sc interior-reg) will be sufficient
2014-08-25T07:02:28Z wmarvel: anyway - 2am, going to sleep, thanks for the comments
2014-08-25T07:27:26Z wmarvel: eh, maybe not - only interior-reg is lr.
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2014-08-25T18:41:21Z wmarvel: ldrex <-- no offset addressing mode on arm (unless in thumb mode, but I'm assuming trying to switch would not be sane), so I need a register to hold the address to cas at. It looks like trying to use a descriptor-reg is not right, because the GC will expect the value there to be pointing at a boxed value
2014-08-25T18:42:02Z wmarvel: I can't use an interior-reg because the only interior reg is lr and that's paired with pc so the gc would fixup the wrong thing
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2014-08-25T18:43:18Z wmarvel: and I don't think non-descriptor-regs are even fixed up (but I could be wrong)
2014-08-25T18:43:29Z wmarvel: so I'm trying to figure out what the sane options are.
2014-08-25T18:44:12Z wmarvel: (although there's certainly a probability there's something I don't know that makes something in the above wrong)
2014-08-25T18:58:53Z _8hzp`: Please excuse my ARM ignorance -- if I'm grepping this right, we're using lr a.k.a. LIP in various places as an interior-reg as expected on any of our RISC platforms.  What prevents using it like that in this VOP, too?
2014-08-25T19:00:53Z _8hzp`: So LR is the system calling convention's return address (right?), but are we using it in the Lisp calling convention for that purpose?  Doesn't look like it to me, after a very cursory glance.
2014-08-25T19:01:10Z wmarvel: I could be wrong on this - but it is paired with pc in gc-common - so if I take the object I'm trying to swap, put it in lr, and add the offset, if a gc runs, won't it use pc in it's fixup? (This is honestly the first time I've gone this deep into sbcl internals so if there's something I don't grok that means I can use it ...)
2014-08-25T19:08:05Z _8hzp`: Haven't read this code is a while, and especially not for ARM.  But generally, the pairing is a dynamic thing, correct?  So if you have a boxed register that points to a object, and LR points into that object, it'll detect that.
2014-08-25T19:08:55Z wmarvel: I guess I can try using interior-reg and watch it massively break on tests if it won't work :)
2014-08-25T19:12:46Z _8hzp`: That's what I'd do.  :-)  But I'm not sure what you mean that LR gets paired up with PC.  Have you seen it do that?  And for an interrupt context sitting in this VOP?
2014-08-25T19:13:25Z wmarvel: I mean in gc-common.c there's lines that, after ifdefs, bebome something like this:
2014-08-25T19:14:07Z wmarvel: INTERIOR_POINTER_VARS(lr)\n PAIR_INTERIOR_POINTER(pc)\n PAIR_INTERIOR_POINTER(lr)\n
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2014-08-25T19:15:36Z _8hzp`: Isn't that just a sequence of variable declarations followed by a sequence of function calls?  The "pairing" is what happens dynamically in each such call.
2014-08-25T19:16:42Z wmarvel: hmm
2014-08-25T19:17:05Z wmarvel: well, it calls pair_interior_pointer
2014-08-25T19:17:11Z wmarvel: so maybe I didn't look far enough
2014-08-25T19:19:10Z wmarvel: pair_interior_pointer looks like it scans the boxed registers - so ... I'll try using interior_reg.
2014-08-25T19:19:16Z wmarvel: thanks :)
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2014-08-25T21:01:43Z wmarvel: is it sane for something like (- (* offset n-word-bits) lowtag) to come up negative? It looks to me like in ppc that's how the offset off the object address is built - but with say, a list-pointer-lowtag, it will be negative
2014-08-25T21:02:43Z wmarvel: err, n-word-bytes
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2014-08-25T21:15:54Z wmarvel: I guess it does.
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2014-08-25T21:36:27Z pkhuong: wmarvel: it does, if the lowtag is, e.g., 7
2014-08-25T21:36:35Z pkhuong: (that's the common case ;)
2014-08-25T21:46:34Z wmarvel: or 3 :)
2014-08-25T21:47:30Z wmarvel: I can't encode a negative into the arm add instruction so I'm going to make a macro that says 'if that constant offset comes out negative use sub, otherwise add'
2014-08-25T21:51:50Z wmarvel: (unless that will terribly break stuff, which I suppose I'll find out)
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2014-08-26T08:41:42Z otwieracz: Hi,
2014-08-26T08:41:59Z jackdaniel: hi
2014-08-26T08:42:01Z otwieracz: ; Loading "quicklisp-slime-helper"
2014-08-26T08:42:02Z otwieracz: ;     Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package.
2014-08-26T08:42:07Z otwieracz: Is this known problem?
2014-08-26T08:47:04Z kanru: otwieracz: it is a known issue and has been fixed in newer slime
2014-08-26T08:50:44Z otwieracz: I see that my one is outdated.
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2014-08-27T10:28:11Z flip214: am I the only one to get "fatal: read error: Connection reset by peer" on every other "git pull" from the SF git?
2014-08-27T10:28:52Z ams: i just use the github mirror
2014-08-27T10:29:56Z flip214: is that at least semi-official?
2014-08-27T10:32:37Z ams: in what way?
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2014-08-27T10:41:24Z Krystof: it's semi-official in that there's some kind of sbcl group in charge of it
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2014-08-27T11:00:44Z flip214: Krystof: thanks, will switch.
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2014-08-27T21:17:14Z Blkt: is it known (or obvious) that a function definition like (defun unify (x y &optional (bindings no-bindings)) ...) does strange things when no-bindings is a constant defined via defconstant and the definition is reloaded via slime?
2014-08-27T21:18:42Z Blkt: more specifically
2014-08-27T21:18:58Z Blkt: I'm playing with paip's prolog implementation
2014-08-27T21:19:31Z |3b|: reload the function definition or the constant definition?
2014-08-27T21:19:49Z Blkt: function definition
2014-08-27T21:20:01Z Blkt: (unify '(?x + 2) '(1 + ?y)) => ((?Y . 2) (?X . 1))
2014-08-27T21:20:11Z Blkt: after function's definition reloading
2014-08-27T21:20:18Z Blkt: (unify '(?x + 2) '(1 + ?y)) => ((?Y . 2) (?X . 1) (T . T))
2014-08-27T21:20:48Z Blkt: (I'm assuming the reader is familiar with PAIP's Prolog code)
2014-08-27T21:22:01Z Blkt: (anyway, it can be found here http://paste.lisp.org/+32QZ )
2014-08-27T21:23:02Z Blkt: I find no obvious reason why, also the disassembled code seems exactly the same before and after the reloading (diffing it now)
2014-08-27T21:23:04Z |3b|: that defconstant call might be a problem
2014-08-27T21:24:13Z |3b|: might try with something like https://github.com/quek/paiprolog/blob/master/auxfns.lisp#L289
2014-08-27T21:24:19Z Blkt: because of sbcl idiosyncrasies stuff
2014-08-27T21:24:30Z Blkt: ?
2014-08-27T21:24:57Z |3b|: no, because it isn't the same cons during compile and load or something like that
2014-08-27T21:25:11Z Blkt: mmm
2014-08-27T21:25:16Z |3b| doesn't remember the exact issue with defconstant and complicated values
2014-08-27T21:25:40Z |3b|: but results are undefined if you redefine a constant with a non-eql value
2014-08-27T21:25:57Z Blkt: I'm not redefining the constant
2014-08-27T21:26:08Z Blkt: I'm redefining the function unify
2014-08-27T21:26:28Z |3b|: "If a defconstant form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that name names a constant variable. An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both. "
2014-08-27T21:27:21Z |3b|: so it might have gotten 1 value at compile time, and another when loaded, and the function saw first at compile time, and other when you redefined it
2014-08-27T21:28:07Z Blkt: ah
2014-08-27T21:28:14Z Blkt: mmm
2014-08-27T21:29:31Z Blkt: I see
2014-08-27T21:29:32Z Blkt: thank you
2014-08-27T21:37:30Z Blkt: also, disassembling unify before and after the reload there are differences
2014-08-27T21:37:58Z Blkt: it's much bigger after reload
2014-08-27T21:38:24Z Blkt: 404 bytes before, 470 after
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2014-08-27T22:28:42Z Blkt: does slime have an IRC channel?
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2014-08-28T00:08:59Z White_Flame: Blkt: I'm actually very familiar with prolog-in-lisp stuff.  Did you ever find the problem?
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2014-08-28T00:27:00Z White_Flame: I'd suggest trying to modify defconstant to defvar and see if the behavior changes
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2014-08-28T00:27:45Z pkhuong: defglobal also works if you're SBCL-only.
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2014-08-28T00:39:07Z White_Flame: Blkt: Okay, so the problem manifests in extend-bindings.  It's likely that the no-bindings referenced in there was consed up during compile-time, and the optional binding in #'unify was consed up during load-time.
2014-08-28T00:39:39Z White_Flame: hence the eq check failing, and (t . t) remaining in the binding list.  Hopefully though you already discovered that.
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2014-08-28T05:47:59Z wmarvel: So - have a make-target-2.sh running in another window - with compare-and-swap-vops on arm - keep expecting it to have exploded - it has not yet, merrily compiling away.
2014-08-28T05:49:11Z wmarvel: the generated asm in the cold-sbcl.core looks ok too.
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2014-08-28T07:15:47Z wmarvel: victory of sorts -> http://pastebin.com/RWt8HSLp
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2014-08-28T07:38:58Z Krystof: well it does something!  congratulations
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2014-08-28T08:18:03Z hzp: next stop: gencgc?
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2014-08-28T11:02:36Z Krystof swears at AMOP
2014-08-28T11:02:48Z Krystof: I had a nice solution to the (validate-superclass stream t) problem, until
2014-08-28T11:02:58Z Krystof: "The class of every class shown is standard-class except for the class t which is an instance of the class built-in-class"
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2014-08-28T12:15:39Z jdz: class t, the party pooper!
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2014-08-28T12:43:19Z Krystof: oh well that's craptastic
2014-08-28T12:43:59Z Krystof: T must be a built-in-class (AMOP, "Inheritance Structure of Metaobject Classes")
2014-08-28T12:44:32Z Krystof: (validate-superclass <any class> (find-class t)) must return t (AMOP, validate-superclass)
2014-08-28T12:44:44Z Krystof: validate-superclass determines whether a class can be subclassed
2014-08-28T12:45:16Z Krystof: trying to subclass a class of metaclass built-in-class signals an error (CLHS, "System Class BUILT-IN-CLASS"
2014-08-28T12:45:18Z Krystof: )
2014-08-28T12:45:53Z Krystof: am I missing something?
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2014-08-28T12:57:12Z |3b|: validate-superclass isn't saying it can be a direct superclass, and t is superclass of everything that can?
2014-08-28T12:57:40Z |3b| is also confused, that's the best i can come up with
2014-08-28T12:58:43Z |3b|: though it sounds like it is used to check direct superclasses, so i guess that probably isn't it
2014-08-28T13:08:14Z Krystof: I'm fine with "yes that's all definitely inconsistent"
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2014-08-28T13:16:15Z |3b|: does "Since built-in classes cannot be created or reinitialized by the user, an error is signaled if initialize-instance or reinitialize-instance are called to initialize or reinitialize a derived instance of the class built-in-class. " mean it handles that error separately?
2014-08-28T13:17:54Z Krystof: I think that's distinct from subclassing
2014-08-28T13:17:59Z Krystof: that's instantiating
2014-08-28T13:19:03Z |3b|: same context as the call to validate-superclass though
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2014-08-28T13:20:07Z |3b| gets confused by MOP stuff though, so not really sure which stuff is which
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2014-08-28T16:17:01Z wmarvel: is there a known issue with sb-kernel:%check-bound on arm?
2014-08-28T16:21:55Z wmarvel: ahh, nevermind
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2014-08-29T03:13:57Z krzysz00: Krystof: I'll take a look at the code this weekend
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2014-08-29T06:56:44Z Krystof: thanks, krzysz00
2014-08-29T06:57:04Z Krystof: future archaeologists will wonder why there is an overrepresentation of Krystofs among sbcl developers
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2014-08-29T16:29:05Z nyef: Hello all.
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2014-08-29T16:32:25Z Krystof: hi.  Thanks for your comments on built-in-class
2014-08-29T16:32:36Z nyef: Not a problem, it was interesting.
2014-08-29T16:33:43Z nyef: I don't have access to either of my copies of AMOP for a good few hours, but I'll be reading a bit more on the use of VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS, but your preference of using a different metaclass is starting to look better to me.
2014-08-29T16:35:21Z Krystof: I hope so; I've already written the documentation section to explain the deviation from AMOP :)
2014-08-29T16:37:28Z nyef: I'm hoping to get some time soon to work on little things like the compile farm that I was trying to set up, and possibly some of our GC issues.
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2014-08-29T16:54:19Z Guest70505: Krystof / nyef: Have either of you read beach's ILC paper about using switch statements instead of hashing for generic function dispatch?
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2014-08-29T16:54:40Z reb: How hard is that kind of change to try out in SBCL?
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2014-08-29T17:26:56Z nyef: I think I glanced over it, but I'm REALLY not a CLOS implementation guru, so I didn't (and still don't) have much of a basis to form an opinion.
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2014-08-29T17:51:26Z scymtym_: reb: i think generating the binary-search dispatch is possible in "user code" via SB-MOP:COMPUTE-DISCRIMINATING-FUNCTION (when non-class specializers can be ignored). the difficult problem would probably be associating numbers to CLOS classes and accessing them efficiently at generic function invocation time.
2014-08-29T18:09:55Z reb: scymtym_: thanks!
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2014-08-30T06:54:25Z wmarvel: looking better -> http://pastebin.com/y7c2Gv5Q
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2014-08-30T07:52:54Z Krystof: nice
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2014-08-30T11:13:59Z dto: hey, congrats on the new release. i have a question regarding the fix to saving core images on ARM
2014-08-30T11:14:56Z dto: does that relate at all to the ability to run sbcl from inside an android app?
2014-08-30T11:15:28Z dto: if things are closer on that front, i could use my android devbox and try to help out
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2014-08-30T14:06:53Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-08-30T15:00:52Z nyef: And, once again, I find myself having to wait until close to the end of the day to have access to one of my copies of AMOP. Fun and games. /-:
2014-08-30T15:01:34Z nyef: But I can think of one case where CLHS mandates a STANDARD-CLASS that has T as a direct superclass.
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2014-08-30T16:59:34Z vi1: hi, any devs online?
2014-08-30T17:01:03Z nyef: There are a couple around. What is it that you're looking for?
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2014-08-30T17:02:06Z vi1: there is a problem building new sbcl versions on Windows
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2014-08-30T17:03:03Z vi1: I reported some time ago, see: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143271
2014-08-30T17:03:13Z vi1: it's not fixed in 1.2.3
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2014-08-30T17:10:53Z nyef: Hunh. That's neat. The patch is doing horrible things, of course...
2014-08-30T17:11:08Z vi1: yep
2014-08-30T17:11:28Z nyef: Is this in launchpad, or just on lisppaste?
2014-08-30T17:11:39Z vi1: it's workaround, not a clean fix
2014-08-30T17:11:54Z vi1: just lisppaste
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2014-08-30T17:12:34Z nyef: It looks like it's specific to some versions of mingw, as well.
2014-08-30T17:13:18Z nyef: And it not being in launchpad probably explains why it's not getting much (if any) attention.
2014-08-30T17:13:50Z nyef hasn't done any windows development in ages, so isn't in a position to try and figure out what the right thing is here.
2014-08-30T17:13:54Z vi1: it might be, but new mingw and cygwin are affected
2014-08-30T17:15:17Z vi1: yeah I just wrote about it on #sbcl a month ago
2014-08-30T17:19:26Z |3b|: vi1: don't suppose you know if sbcl passes tests on windows reliably yet?
2014-08-30T17:19:50Z |3b| may want to do some windows dev soon, wondering if i will need to fix sbcl first
2014-08-30T17:20:51Z vi1: I did not run sh run-tests or alike, but it passed my tests :)
2014-08-30T17:21:08Z vi1: sbcl on Windows is very stable
2014-08-30T17:21:21Z |3b|: i guess you don't use threads?
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2014-08-30T17:21:53Z vi1: i do use threads and OpenGl, so this tests are pretty serios
2014-08-30T17:22:05Z vi1: these
2014-08-30T17:22:06Z |3b|: hmm, wonder if it has improved
2014-08-30T17:22:24Z |3b|: last i looked, sbcl on windows was very not stable when threads were involved
2014-08-30T17:22:41Z |3b|: couldn't even finish run-tests most of the time
2014-08-30T17:22:53Z |3b| remembers stassats looking at it though, so maybe it got fixed
2014-08-30T17:23:35Z vi1: well, on my multi-threaded programs I've never seen a single problem
2014-08-30T17:23:55Z vi1: which I can't say about ccl
2014-08-30T17:24:41Z vi1: filed a couple ccl bugs that are not fixed
2014-08-30T17:24:49Z |3b|: also, what sort of opengl stuff do you do?
2014-08-30T17:25:27Z |3b| is just curious, since i also do opengl stuff
2014-08-30T17:25:42Z vi1: learning mostly for now, going through ogldev
2014-08-30T17:25:55Z vi1: and wrote parallelized chess :)
2014-08-30T17:26:32Z |3b|: cool
2014-08-30T17:27:05Z |3b| is currently working on compiling a lispy DSL to glsl
2014-08-30T17:27:54Z vi1: there is one guy, forgot who, who wrote it already
2014-08-30T17:28:03Z |3b|: there are a few
2014-08-30T17:28:23Z |3b| obviously thinks mine is the nicest of them :)
2014-08-30T17:28:54Z vi1: I don't really see why dsl would be a win frankly
2014-08-30T17:29:39Z |3b|: working with editing keys i'm use to, type inference, macros, 'generic' functions
2014-08-30T17:29:59Z |3b|: bit off topic for #sbcl though
2014-08-30T17:30:22Z |3b|: can discuss it further in #lisp or #lispgames if you like
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2014-08-30T17:32:20Z vi1: may be other time
2014-08-30T17:33:12Z vi1: going to sleep:)
2014-08-30T17:33:14Z vi1: bb
2014-08-30T17:33:21Z nyef: Sleep well.
2014-08-30T17:34:05Z |3b|: on topic, any sbcl devs have opinions on a patch to rename any deftransform arguments that are exported symbols? (particularly cl:number)
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2014-08-30T18:38:11Z Krystof: |3b|: would definitely take, particularly if it also made deftransform throw a macroexpand-time error if the symbols are exported from public packages
2014-08-30T18:39:05Z Krystof: |3b|: also, sbcl threads tests are really quite destructive -- more than just normal use
2014-08-30T18:40:23Z |3b|: cool, will add that to my todo list for next time i want something requiring less thinking (the deftransform stuff that is, fixing gc/threads isn't low-thinking :)
2014-08-30T18:41:36Z |3b| was having problems aside from the tests on windows, but possibly it was just something simple and unrelated
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2014-08-30T20:05:26Z krzysz00: Krystof: I force-pushed a fix for most of your comments (except for unicode-1-names, which I'm still thinking about, and the SB!INT move, which seems like a bad idea)
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2014-08-30T20:29:11Z Krystof: fab.
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2014-08-30T21:36:19Z wmarvel_: http://pastebin.com/v7Jwcjr7 <-- assembly prints right now for ldrex/strex/mcr
2014-08-30T21:36:53Z wmarvel_: going to send a patch to sbcl-devel for comment etc. sometime today, I think.
2014-08-30T21:37:51Z wmarvel_: and then, I guess I have to go learn what to do about tls etc. :)
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2014-08-30T22:34:56Z nyef: Okay, I'm back, and I have my computer, my copy of AMOP, and a glass of wine. Time to start re-reading the bit about VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS or whatever it was called. (-:
2014-08-30T22:39:46Z Bicyclidine: what are you doing with it?
2014-08-30T22:41:12Z nyef: I'm looking at it in the context of a discussion about a particular SBCL bug.
2014-08-30T22:41:17Z nyef: lp 1332983
2014-08-30T22:41:17Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1332983
2014-08-30T22:41:57Z nyef: Or did you mean the glass of wine? In that case, the answer is "trying to not kill another computer from alcohol poisoning with it".
2014-08-30T22:43:11Z nyef: (It takes far, far longer to kill myself from alcohol poisoning than it does to kill my computer from alcohol poisoning, as determined empirically. I'm still here, and the wine-soaked corpse of my previous computer is still in a bag somewhere.)
2014-08-30T23:23:48Z drmeister: Hey guys - I'm doing timing and trying to optimize Clasp.   I'm timing (APPLY fn args) and by timing the different stages of the function it looks like calculating the length of args is the most time consuming step.  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/1b110d10d6fa5ab9904e
2014-08-30T23:24:42Z drmeister: Which leads me to something pkhuong suggested a while ago, to pass excess arguments in the same multiple_value array that results are returned in.
2014-08-30T23:25:05Z drmeister: If I did that then I wouldn't have to traverse the args twice.
2014-08-30T23:25:23Z drmeister: I'm fishing for advice.
2014-08-30T23:25:35Z drmeister: I'm also passing the first three arguments in registers.
2014-08-30T23:26:41Z nyef: The only scenario that scares me about that involves MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL and/or APPLY of VALUES.
2014-08-30T23:28:22Z drmeister: I'll have to think on that. Isn't this what SBCL does? Doesn't it pass arguments in the multiple-value array?
2014-08-30T23:28:35Z drmeister: I assumed from what pkhuong was suggesting that it did.
2014-08-30T23:31:43Z nyef: Yes, but there's a bit of copying, and the entire array is stack-allocated in the first place.
2014-08-30T23:32:06Z nyef: So we can have multiple such arrays in existence at the same time.
2014-08-30T23:36:05Z drmeister: I haven't heard of that before.
2014-08-30T23:36:30Z drmeister: I thought ECL just used one thread local array.
2014-08-30T23:37:34Z nyef: As I said, SBCL uses stack-allocated arrays for "multiple-value" or "unknown-value" packets.
2014-08-30T23:38:49Z drmeister: That's a good idea.
2014-08-30T23:39:37Z drmeister: I have stack allocated arrays now, and a special tagged pointer that points to them and gets treated like an activation frame.
2014-08-30T23:40:22Z drmeister: I could plunk one of those down and use it whenever it is needed.
2014-08-30T23:41:54Z drmeister: Do you keep a stack of them to keep track of which one is current?
2014-08-30T23:42:22Z drmeister: When/why do you create new ones?
2014-08-30T23:43:53Z nyef: Whenever we do a multiple-value-list, multiple-value-call, or values situation, we end up with an unknown-values stack packet.
2014-08-30T23:44:12Z nyef: s/do/are in/
2014-08-30T23:45:52Z nyef: Basically, some operations produce or consume these multiple-valued stack objects.
2014-08-30T23:46:14Z nyef: Oh, and &REST lists count as well before they are "listified".
2014-08-30T23:48:02Z nyef: If you do a google search for "nikodemus charmingly naive", the top hit explains some of the tricks that can happen with a non-listified &REST argument.
2014-08-30T23:50:39Z nyef: (Which basically behaves as an unknown-values stack packet. There's similar shenanigans with non-local exits as well.)
2014-08-30T23:55:58Z p_l: 25
2014-08-30T23:56:03Z p_l: eh, sorry
2014-08-31T00:03:23Z drmeister: Thank you.
2014-08-31T00:10:51Z nyef: You also might have a look at SYS:SRC;COMPILER;STACK.LISP and parts of SYS:SRC;COMPILER;LTN.LISP, particularly ANNOTATE-UNKNOWN-VALUES-LVAR.
2014-08-31T00:12:37Z nyef: (But know that there are still some bugs in this area, a couple of which can be fairly nasty.)
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2014-08-31T00:15:39Z wmarvel: nyef: I find your willingness to kill silicon disturbing. ;)
2014-08-31T00:16:51Z nyef: It's not like I ended up with any smoke-emitting diodes or anything. d-:
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2014-08-31T00:24:35Z wmarvel: I made a diode smoke once. I felt terrible.
2014-08-31T00:24:56Z wmarvel: (put it into the breadboard backwards ... )
2014-08-31T00:38:39Z drmeister: nyef: Do you keep a stack of unknown-values arrays?
2014-08-31T00:39:17Z nyef: The actual arrays sit on the control stack, and are kept track of by the compiler within the context of a single function.
2014-08-31T00:50:42Z drmeister: Do you have more than one stack?
2014-08-31T00:51:05Z nyef: SBCL acknowledges a control stack, a binding stack, and an alien/number stack.
2014-08-31T00:51:46Z drmeister: Would a linked list of these going up the stack work?
2014-08-31T00:52:34Z nyef: Why would a linked list be necessary?
2014-08-31T00:52:48Z drmeister: I think I need to think on these for a while to figure out how to integrate them in my system.
2014-08-31T00:54:09Z nyef: The location and size of each such unknown-values packet is kept in a variable, more or less, so if you need to find them for debugging or GC purposes you could stash them in the same place you stash your boxed variable maps.
2014-08-31T00:54:29Z drmeister: I'm not sure what problem they solve - but you provided a clue re "multiple-value-list, multiple-value-call, or values situation"    I had to alloca extra memory on the stack for those.
2014-08-31T00:54:56Z drmeister: What are boxed variable maps in SBCL?
2014-08-31T00:55:02Z drmeister: What are they for?
2014-08-31T00:55:07Z nyef: We don't really have them.
2014-08-31T00:55:23Z nyef: The map of where all of your boxed data is for an "activation record"/stack frame.
2014-08-31T00:56:02Z nyef: In SBCL we either have a "conservative" GC over the stack or the control stack is entirely boxed data and all stack-allocated unboxed data goes on the number stack.
2014-08-31T00:56:29Z nyef: (In the latter case, the number stack is the C stack, and uses mostly-C conventions.)
2014-08-31T00:56:32Z drmeister: I use arrays of pointers for those.  There is an extra element for a pointer to the next outer closed over activation frame and another to point to a list of symbols for debugging.
2014-08-31T00:57:04Z nyef: Right, didn't you say that you were heap-allocating your activation records?
2014-08-31T00:57:32Z drmeister: Currently yes - but I can set up activation records on the stack now.
2014-08-31T01:04:57Z nyef: So, one of the approaches for "precise" GC in SBCL (possibly more precise even on non-x86oid backends) is to keep a map of live boxed stack and register locations by instruction offset within the compiled code for the GC to scavenge. This would basically mean that nothing gets pinned on the heap unless it is specifically requested.
2014-08-31T01:05:20Z nyef: But we don't do that yet, for various reasons amounting to "it's hard to implement".
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2014-08-31T01:11:02Z pkhuong_: We could do the map easily.
2014-08-31T01:11:16Z pkhuong_: backtraces, otoh
2014-08-31T01:11:16Z nyef: We could?
2014-08-31T01:11:20Z drmeiste_: Interoperation with C++ means I have mixed data on the stack.
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2014-08-31T01:11:56Z nyef: Right, we'd need to be able to backtrace alien code reliably for this to work, at least on backends with a mixed control stack discipline (x86oids).
2014-08-31T01:12:17Z pkhuong: and handle GC interrupts during calls/returns/unwind
2014-08-31T01:12:25Z drmeiste_: pkhuong_: Hello.   I just ran into a situation where I think the answer is to change my calling convention yet again and this time (final time?) pass three values in registers and the rest in the multiple-values array.
2014-08-31T01:12:46Z drmeiste_: nyef - is telling me you allocate multiple values arrays occasionally on the stack.
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2014-08-31T01:13:09Z pkhuong: that's one way to describe our system
2014-08-31T01:13:15Z nyef: (Hello pkhuong.)
2014-08-31T01:14:54Z drmeister: I have one stack, the C++ stack and I now alloca arrays of pointer on that stack and I have a tagged pointer that represents a pointer to such an array on the stack.  It seems to me I could use these for multiple values but I still don't see why I would ever need more than one.
2014-08-31T01:15:32Z pkhuong: drmeister: I'm pretty sure the benefit of SBCL's approach are marginal at best
2014-08-31T01:16:00Z pkhuong: compared to a pre-allocated thread-local vector of arguments/return values
2014-08-31T01:17:01Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out why my system is 100-300x slower than ECL.  I'm doing careful timing of operations like APPLY and FUNCALL.  I'm worried that I'm loosing a lot of time in every call doing things I don't need to do.
2014-08-31T01:18:37Z drmeister: Here's an example:  https://gist.github.com/drmeister/020e1b5b47c27ead2333
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2014-08-31T01:22:55Z |3b|: do normal calls go through that?
2014-08-31T01:23:16Z drmeister: This is the function that I'm using to get this timing: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/ba17da68b6b31e13367f
2014-08-31T01:24:02Z drmeister: |3b| No, not all but I thought I would tackle it because it's more complicated and a prototype for others.
2014-08-31T01:25:20Z drmeister: I'm still trying to figure out how to profile this - and if this kind of profiling even matters.
2014-08-31T01:25:28Z |3b|: seems like most uses shouldn't need to calculate length at all for example
2014-08-31T01:25:40Z |3b|: most function calls i mean
2014-08-31T01:26:15Z Bike: is computing the length taking seven hundred nanoseconds? i'm not sure how to read this
2014-08-31T01:26:33Z |3b|: length is 6, allocating space is 790
2014-08-31T01:26:48Z Bike: oh, alright.
2014-08-31T01:31:42Z drmeister: Here's a disassembly of a simple function (defun a (x y z) (+ x y z))
2014-08-31T01:31:47Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/e1fbce015074bd51fbeb
2014-08-31T01:36:37Z drmeister: The function call I'm worried about is everything between line 64 and 76
2014-08-31T01:38:35Z drmeister: It loads values into registers %6, %7, %8, loads the symbol "+" into %\"SYMBOL->+\" gets the function pointer to it into %9 and then invokes the function with the arguments.
2014-08-31T01:41:56Z drmeister: So it is the performance of va_symbolFunction and mv_FUNCALL and sp_lexicalValueRead that matter.    I'm also allocating all activation frames on the heap. That turned out to be really expensive in the gist above. This may need to wait until I have a better compiler that can determine what bindings can go on the heap and which can go on the stack.
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2014-08-31T02:49:40Z pkhuong: drmeister: if you don't want threads, (PUC) Lua has a nice implementation of eviction from the stack on demand
2014-08-31T02:50:11Z drmeister: What is "eviction from the stack on demand"?
2014-08-31T02:50:46Z pkhuong: the runtime system migrates activation records to the heap dynamically
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2014-08-31T03:00:10Z krzysz00: What's convertion on one * vs. two in global names?
2014-08-31T03:00:54Z pkhuong: single pair of earmuffs for specials, double earmufs for globals
2014-08-31T03:02:59Z krzysz00: I realized that the Unicode stuff was a bit inconsistent around the name database vs. the rest of it, so I was wondering which direction te fix it
2014-08-31T03:51:15Z krzysz00: Krystof: I've pushed a change that moves the character database to SB!INT
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2014-08-31T17:55:26Z wmarvel: can you tell :temporary that you want to use the same register as two names?
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2014-08-31T18:52:28Z pkhuong: wmarvel: you can, if their lifetimes don't overlap
2014-08-31T19:17:03Z wmarvel: so I'd need to go dig into the temporary spec stuff and figure out how to spec lifetimes?
2014-08-31T19:17:09Z wmarvel: or will it auto-figure-out?
2014-08-31T19:18:06Z wmarvel: I have a temp I'm using to compute an offset that gets added to a lip, then I need another temp for coprocessor dmb stuff, and I know I'm done with the offset, but I want the names to 'look nice'
2014-08-31T19:24:16Z wmarvel: I think I'm pretty close to having array-atomic-incf/word and raw-instance-atomic-incf/word vops on armv6
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