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2014-07-01T11:41:13Z stassats: and sb-gmp and sb-mpfr are broken on windows, because unsigned-long is not unsigned-long
2014-07-01T11:53:18Z stassats: and i can't build x86 sbcl, which is nice
2014-07-01T11:53:23Z stassats: (on windows)
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2014-07-01T12:29:00Z stassats: congratulations, that's a 1.2.0 regression
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2014-07-01T14:21:38Z stassats: and it's non-deterministic, bisecting fails
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2014-07-01T19:39:32Z alpha-: how does one use mpfr floats ? I try #M"1.5" (example from its github page) but it's an error (no dispatch function defined for #\M)
2014-07-01T19:40:39Z pkhuong: alpha-: you may have to load the contrib first.
2014-07-01T19:41:25Z alpha-: how?
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2014-07-01T20:43:59Z scymtym: Krystof: could we have another pattern-specializer discussion sometime?
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2014-07-01T21:17:55Z ekinmur hello, i am getting "Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package"
2014-07-01T21:18:16Z Bicyclidine: when doing what?
2014-07-01T21:18:28Z ekinmur: when i try to quickload "quicklisp-slime-helper"
2014-07-01T21:19:09Z ekinmur: i think it is the same issue discussed here :http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/18417
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2014-07-01T21:19:16Z Bicyclidine: I think I heard there was an sbcl release incompatible with the distributed slime
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2014-07-01T21:19:35Z Bicyclidine: https://twitter.com/xach/status/483612861022109696
2014-07-01T21:20:02Z ekinmur: i see. thanks
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2014-07-01T23:37:32Z newb: hello - could anyone help with a problem - installed sbcl, but (require 'asdf) returns NIL...
2014-07-01T23:38:35Z newb: join #lisp
2014-07-01T23:38:39Z newb: crap
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2014-07-02T10:26:30Z stassats: looks like all my windows woes were caused by not removing grovel-headers.exe
2014-07-02T10:27:32Z stassats: now, if somebody would build armhf 1.2.1, that would be great
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2014-07-02T10:38:57Z Krystof: I can set a build off
2014-07-02T10:39:45Z stassats: windows and arm are one of those platforms when building from source isn't easy
2014-07-02T10:39:56Z stassats: though i imagine mips isn't easy too
2014-07-02T10:40:32Z stassats: and i painted the windows-64 box green
2014-07-02T10:41:24Z stassats: and it comes without sb-mpfr, which is broken anyway
2014-07-02T10:41:31Z stassats: and sb-gmp is broken too, but it built fine
2014-07-02T10:41:32Z Krystof: ok, I've set off a build.  I'll try to check it later
2014-07-02T10:41:52Z hzp: MIPS worked fairly OK the last time I tried it, but of course there could be new bitrot...?
2014-07-02T10:42:00Z stassats: hzp: i meant that it's slow
2014-07-02T10:42:26Z hzp: Oh, yeah, well.
2014-07-02T10:42:55Z stassats: but i guess nothing beats raspberry pi, 3 hour builds
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2014-07-02T12:06:19Z Krystof: scymtym: yes!  I should perhaps have mentioned that I am not far from you at the moment (Jacobs University in Bremen)
2014-07-02T12:07:37Z Krystof: until Friday evening
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2014-07-02T13:57:19Z ams is now known as ams`
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2014-07-02T14:11:31Z Guest630`: I just noticed that building head SBCL on 64-bit x86 using clisp or ccl appears to be broken.
2014-07-02T14:11:36Z Guest630` is now known as reb
2014-07-02T14:12:41Z reb: stassats: I have a build of 1.2.0.94 ....
2014-07-02T14:13:09Z stassats: and?
2014-07-02T14:13:39Z reb: ... you were wondering if anyone had built 1.2.1
2014-07-02T14:13:53Z stassats: was i?
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2014-07-02T14:15:56Z |3b|: stassats: does sbcl pass tests reliably on win64 now?
2014-07-02T14:16:13Z stassats: |3b|: it doesn't on win32-x86
2014-07-02T14:16:55Z |3b|: so it doesn't on both?
2014-07-02T14:17:03Z stassats: right
2014-07-02T14:17:13Z |3b|: ok, just wondering if i had missed some fixesio-
2014-07-02T14:17:17Z stassats: threads, basically
2014-07-02T14:17:22Z |3b|: yeah
2014-07-02T14:17:48Z stassats: there are thread problems on x86-64 linux too, so, the color is quite arbitrary
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2014-07-02T14:47:53Z Krystof: //build started:  Wed Jul  2 10:40:55 UTC 2014
2014-07-02T14:47:53Z Krystof: //build finished: Wed Jul  2 13:45:40 UTC 2014
2014-07-02T14:51:25Z Krystof: bzip2 takes *forever*
2014-07-02T14:51:39Z stassats: i bzipped on the desktop
2014-07-02T14:53:43Z Krystof: that would have been sensible, but everything is remote and through multi-ssh hops
2014-07-02T14:53:51Z Krystof: I've uploaded an armhf binary
2014-07-02T14:54:16Z Krystof: I'm not really in a position to do sbcl-page
2014-07-02T14:54:32Z stassats: i can do that
2014-07-02T14:54:34Z Krystof: thanks
2014-07-02T14:56:11Z stassats: you named it armhf-vfp, and the platform table expects just armhf
2014-07-02T14:56:47Z stassats: i guess i can redo that here
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2014-07-02T14:58:08Z Krystof: oops
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2014-07-02T15:04:21Z stassats: ok, uploading repackaged
2014-07-02T15:06:17Z stassats: oh bloody hell, it should have been armhf-linux
2014-07-02T15:06:36Z Krystof: I suck, sorry
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2014-07-02T15:09:04Z stassats: third time should do it
2014-07-02T15:09:46Z stassats: i might as well upload linux-x86
2014-07-02T15:10:16Z stassats: no, i'm too lazy
2014-07-02T15:14:07Z stassats: all is up
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2014-07-02T15:44:08Z krzysz00: Krystof: Do you still think Unicode strings are a decent idea?
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2014-07-02T17:23:22Z krzysz00: And a side question, should Unicode strings be a contrib or in the main runtime?
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2014-07-02T18:58:50Z Krystof: krzysz00: I think thinking of them as a contrib is a reasonable idea
2014-07-02T18:59:01Z Krystof: probably nothing in the main runtime should use them
2014-07-02T18:59:05Z Krystof: at least not yet
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2014-07-02T19:12:39Z krzysz00: The more I think about it, the more I realize that bolting suppport for a new sort of string onto functions in CL might not be a good idea.
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2014-07-02T19:17:37Z pkhuong: krzysz00: I'd stick to what SB-SEQUENCE can do, at least for a first cut.
2014-07-02T19:19:00Z krzysz00: Good point.
2014-07-02T19:19:38Z krzysz00: I'm trying to think up better internal representations for these than a vector of strings (grapheme clusters).
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2014-07-02T19:52:05Z jasom: If I wanted to learn more about the GC (and perhaps implement a new algorithm), where do I start?
2014-07-02T19:52:30Z jasom: I see lots of comments indicating that the stack is conservatively scanned on x86-oids and am not sure why, for example.
2014-07-02T19:56:38Z pkhuong: reason is we don't have a split stack (and no partitioned register set) on x86oids.
2014-07-02T19:57:25Z jasom: hmm I see C_STACK_IS_CONTROL_STACK ifdefs scattered throughout x86 specific code, is that just an attempt to change that?
2014-07-02T19:58:38Z pkhuong: that's a different but not quite orthogonal design decision.
2014-07-02T19:59:59Z jasom: so you can use the c stack as control stack with a split stack?
2014-07-02T20:03:54Z pkhuong: with a split number/control stack, it'd make more sense to use the number stack as a c stack
2014-07-02T20:04:36Z pkhuong: however, one could still have separate C and Lisp stacks without a number stack.
2014-07-02T20:05:19Z jasom: ah, so that's how its "not quite orthogonal"
2014-07-02T20:07:28Z jasom: so was it just register pressure that led to this design for the x86?  Or does the x86 implementation predate using partitioned registers?
2014-07-02T20:07:40Z pkhuong: every other port is partitioned
2014-07-02T20:07:50Z pkhuong: Pretty sure it's only register pressure
2014-07-02T20:08:02Z pkhuong: then again, we went a bit partition happy in the ARM port and it's a bit tight
2014-07-02T20:08:12Z pkhuong: so "only" register pressure ;)
2014-07-02T20:08:12Z jasom: ARM is a lot tighter than Power
2014-07-02T20:08:41Z jasom: Empirically Power has 8 more registers than is needed for C code
2014-07-02T20:09:22Z jasom: s/is needed/can be used effectively/
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2014-07-02T20:13:23Z jasom: and amd-64 has about the same number of registers as arm, right?
2014-07-02T20:16:01Z jasom: IIRC arm considers the PC in its 16 GPRs and x86-64 does not count RIP in that so x86-64 has one more
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2014-07-02T20:50:05Z scymtym: Krystof: your proximity normally would be a great opportunity, but i cannot travel at the moment. so maybe another IRC "meeting"?
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2014-07-02T22:04:29Z scymtym: slime inspector signals when inspecting a LOGICAL-PATHNAME because it expects the PATHNAME-HOST to be a string; while the problem is easy to fix in slime (https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/170), reading CLHS, i think it may be right to expect that
2014-07-02T22:06:01Z |3b|: looks like it can also be a list of strings of :unspecific if i'm looking at right thing
2014-07-02T22:06:12Z |3b|: *or :unspecific
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2014-07-02T22:07:05Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_v.htm#valid_physical_pathname_host
2014-07-02T22:07:22Z |3b|: ah, i guess that might not apply to logical pathnames then :p
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2014-07-02T22:11:35Z |3b|: yeah, expecting a string for host of a LOGICAL-PATHNAME seems reasonable
2014-07-02T22:12:01Z scymtym: i don't know about reasonable, but that's what it seems to say :)
2014-07-02T22:12:46Z |3b|: well, reasonable as in it doesn't seem to be allowed to be anything else, though the accessor is allowed to return something else
2014-07-02T22:14:29Z scymtym: i see. i confused "slime expecting a string" with "hosts being strings"
2014-07-02T22:15:29Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_v.htm#valid_logical_pathname_host
2014-07-02T22:17:28Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pn_hos.htm seems rather broken
2014-07-02T22:17:59Z |3b|: "If the pathname designator is a pathname, it represents the name used to open the file. " sounds like "is a pathname" should have been "is a stream associated with a file"
2014-07-02T22:18:23Z |3b|: top says "pathname -- a pathname designator", bottom says "Should signal an error of type type-error if its first argument is not a pathname. "
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2014-07-02T22:21:30Z |3b|: where do the 'bad' logical pathnames come from, and what is the host?
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2014-07-02T22:26:09Z |3b| isn't sure what the function LOGICAL-PATHNAME should return for arbitrary file streams, but looks like otherwise they should have a string as host
2014-07-02T22:27:11Z scymtym: |3b|: (setf logical-pathname-translations) then #P-reader with logical pathname syntax and the previously defined logical host
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2014-07-02T22:32:18Z |3b| notes that slime inspector doesn't like logical pathnames that can't be translated either
2014-07-02T22:32:42Z |3b|: trying to inspect #P"SYS:FOO" ends up in debugger
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2014-07-02T22:36:44Z |3b|: returning a structure from PATHNAME-HOST doesn't sound like a "valid pathname host" though
2014-07-02T22:37:13Z |3b| wonders if my slime is old, since it doesn't seem to object to it
2014-07-02T22:37:48Z |3b|: ah, it isn't in a logical pathname
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2014-07-02T22:47:37Z scymtym: for non-logical pathnames, the host is already wrapped in (:value …) and thus works with any type
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2014-07-02T22:58:10Z |3b|: yeah, just hasn't realized i got the syntax wrong so had a normal pathname
2014-07-02T22:58:44Z |3b|: doesn't look like it should be returning structures from those either though
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2014-07-03T07:37:40Z stassats: SB-C::REDUCE-CONSTANTS is completely broken in the presence of FP
2014-07-03T07:37:48Z stassats: even if it doesn't reduce floating point constants
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2014-07-03T07:38:22Z stassats: (* x 10 y 10) => (* 100 x y), which gives a different result
2014-07-03T07:38:36Z stassats: (* 2.1 10 3.1 10) => 651.0, (* 100 2.1 3.1) => 650.99994
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2014-07-03T07:42:07Z _8hzp: Does SBCL document anywhere explicitly that it doesn't make use of 12.1.1.1.1?
2014-07-03T07:42:59Z stassats: clhs 12.1.1.1.1
2014-07-03T07:42:59Z specbot: Examples of Associativity and Commutativity in Numeric Operations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aaaa.htm
2014-07-03T07:44:33Z Krystof: right, we're allowed to give different answers
2014-07-03T07:45:08Z stassats: even without reducing, it transposes them
2014-07-03T07:45:43Z stassats: (SB-C::REDUCE-CONSTANTS '* '(X 100 Y) '1 'NUMBER) => (100 X Y)
2014-07-03T07:45:53Z _8hzp: Of course, the parent page actually says "functions that are mathematically associative", and then you get those examples.  What takes precedence, the rule or the example?
2014-07-03T07:47:02Z Krystof: aren't they the same?
2014-07-03T07:47:15Z Krystof: I think they mean *-as-mathematical-multiplication?
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2014-07-03T07:52:52Z stassats: i haven't read it yet, but does it allow transposition?
2014-07-03T07:56:08Z Krystof: it allows arbitrary reordering
2014-07-03T07:56:19Z stassats: do we want that?
2014-07-03T07:57:01Z stassats: (* 100 X Y) doesn't give anything compared to (* X 100 Y)
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2014-07-03T07:57:52Z stassats: or rather, compared to (* x y 100)
2014-07-03T07:58:01Z stassats: but it may give a different result
2014-07-03T07:59:01Z stassats: does something expect constants to appear at the front?
2014-07-03T08:46:51Z stassats: ok, (* x +a+ +b+) is now reduced
2014-07-03T08:47:28Z stassats: but (let ((x 2.1) (y 3.1)) (* z x y)) isn't, and can't really delay that stage until later
2014-07-03T08:49:13Z stassats: maybe it could be fished out of *lexenv*
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2014-07-03T08:58:14Z stassats: lambda-vars don't lug around their values
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2014-07-03T09:03:07Z scymtym: Krystof: does http://paste.lisp.org/display/143083 look right to you?
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2014-07-03T09:50:21Z DGASAU: *** - LET: variable *BACKEND-BYTE-ORDER* has no value
2014-07-03T09:50:21Z DGASAU: 0 errors, 0 warnings
2014-07-03T09:50:21Z DGASAU: *** - EVAL: undefined function SB!VM:GENESIS
2014-07-03T09:50:27Z DGASAU: Where am I supposed to define it?
2014-07-03T09:51:27Z stassats: you aren't
2014-07-03T09:53:29Z DGASAU: Probably, but you haven't done it for me, so 1.2.1 doesn't build on FreeBSD. :)
2014-07-03T09:53:53Z stassats: wrong, it doesn't build in clisp
2014-07-03T09:53:59Z stassats: solution, don't use clisp
2014-07-03T09:54:16Z DGASAU: Alright, does it build in ECL?
2014-07-03T09:54:27Z stassats: it builds in sbcl
2014-07-03T09:54:32Z DGASAU: So, it doesn't build.
2014-07-03T09:55:09Z stassats: it builds fine, i tested that myself
2014-07-03T09:55:58Z DGASAU: It builds only when _I_ can build it, not when some developer can build it using his own quirks. :)
2014-07-03T09:56:24Z stassats: well, i see you've got enough of your own quirks
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2014-07-03T10:08:41Z Cymew: DGASAU: sbcl is in ports, install that and you can probably build sbcl from git just fine.
2014-07-03T10:08:59Z Cymew: I do it all the time, but now 1.2.1 I have not yet tried
2014-07-03T10:09:13Z Cymew: clisp suck in any case...
2014-07-03T10:09:31Z DGASAU: There's no alternative yet.
2014-07-03T10:09:50Z Cymew: You don't have ports?
2014-07-03T10:10:00Z DGASAU: Yes, I don't.
2014-07-03T10:10:11Z Cymew: You have a really broken box there.
2014-07-03T10:10:16Z DGASAU: No, I don't.
2014-07-03T10:10:33Z Cymew: Well, a toll less useful, if we put it that way
2014-07-03T10:10:35Z DGASAU: FreeBSD ports don't work on NetBSD and Solaris.
2014-07-03T10:10:44Z Cymew: s/toll/tool/
2014-07-03T10:11:24Z Cymew: True, they don't. But weren't you saying 1.2.1 didn't build on FreeBSD? I thought that was the question.
2014-07-03T10:11:47Z DGASAU: I mean _at_least_ on FreeBSD.
2014-07-03T10:12:40Z DGASAU: If the breakage is more universal, it is more universal, you know. :)
2014-07-03T10:14:07Z Cymew: Ok, take one thing at the time. Try to make it build on one host at the time, submit bug reports for what does not work for what platform and it will get picked up by a developer when time and energy allows. Feel free to submit patches.
2014-07-03T10:14:32Z Cymew: If you want to make it build on FreeBSD, install sbcl from ports is the suggested solution.
2014-07-03T10:15:59Z Krystof: scymtym: looks fine to me, thanks
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2014-07-03T10:41:25Z scymtym: Krystof: thanks
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2014-07-03T17:14:14Z krzysz00: First (probably really bad) implementation of Unicode strings at https://github.com/krzysz00/sbcl/tree/unicode-vector-strings
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2014-07-03T20:50:35Z jasom: So reading the GC implementation, it appears that pages with data that can only be reached conservatively are actually pinned in place; is that correct?
2014-07-03T20:53:20Z Krystof: that sounds likely
2014-07-03T20:53:38Z Krystof: the point is that if you don't know whether or not something is pointed to, you don't dare move it in case it is
2014-07-03T20:53:52Z Krystof: if you have a non-conservative root, you can update the pointer when you move the page
2014-07-03T20:54:13Z Krystof: if you have a root that you're not sure is a root or not (a conservative root) you can't change it in any way, because it might not be a root
2014-07-03T20:54:18Z jasom: right
2014-07-03T20:54:25Z jasom: and it's at a page-sized granularity
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2014-07-03T21:01:59Z Krystof: cracauer has a nearly-finished patch to fix that
2014-07-03T21:02:14Z jasom: how so?
2014-07-03T21:02:40Z jasom: fix the granularity or eliminate the control stack as a conservative root?
2014-07-03T21:02:44Z Krystof: fix the granularity
2014-07-03T21:05:01Z jasom: I'm going to mess around with options to be non-conservative on x86-64
2014-07-03T21:05:55Z jasom: My intuition is that 16 registers aren't enough, performance wise, with a fixed partitioning scheme and two stacks, and it sounds like early results from ARM agree
2014-07-03T21:10:42Z Krystof: I'd happily take a patch that made us non-conservative through some other means (e.g. some kind of bitvector state of descriptorness of registers)
2014-07-03T21:12:52Z jasom: there would need markers for each stack frame too though, right?
2014-07-03T21:13:58Z jasom: simplest format I can think of is an auxilliary frame-pointer that tells the GC how many words to skip from that frame
2014-07-03T21:19:20Z Krystof: go go go
2014-07-03T21:26:48Z jasom: the last up-front issue to address is how to manage when a register switches from not-a-lisp-object to lisp-object; I suppose we need to null it out before that happens;
2014-07-03T21:28:08Z jasom: 1) clear the register 2) update the register-map 3) register is now ready for use as a lisp object.  <-- look race free to you?
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2014-07-03T21:33:06Z jasom: is there documentation for the calling convention used anywhere?
2014-07-03T21:33:22Z jasom: or is it just reading comments and code in assembly/x86-64
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2014-07-03T21:34:48Z Krystof: oh boy you don't want to ask me now
2014-07-03T21:34:57Z jasom: okay
2014-07-03T21:35:00Z Krystof: I'm so asleep it's not funny :)
2014-07-03T21:35:09Z jasom: get some rest then
2014-07-03T21:35:18Z jasom: don't IRC while tired
2014-07-03T21:35:19Z Krystof: keep talking here and someone smart and awake will respond eventually ;-)
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2014-07-03T22:55:42Z jasom: Any change is likely to cause performance on microbenchmarks to drop, as the costs of conservative GC typically won't show up on those; this makes measuring any potential gain harder.
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2014-07-04T05:36:42Z Krystof: jasom: but there are presumably conservatism-related heap exhaustion bugs in launchpad which should see a clear change in behaviour
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2014-07-04T06:44:45Z _8hzp: jasom: nyef added some helpful bits about the calling convention to the internals manual a while back.  I found it helpful.  It's a section that could always benefit from even more details though, ...
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2014-07-04T11:27:19Z scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143093 weakens the check of a derived function type when the declared type is potentially the result of a simplification by the FUNCTION type translator. does that make sense?
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2014-07-04T17:57:54Z stassats: so, sbcl doesn't really build on kFreebsd?
2014-07-04T18:16:25Z Krystof: it doesn't?
2014-07-04T18:16:41Z stassats: it seems like i'm the first one to build it
2014-07-04T18:17:06Z Krystof: I merged the debian patch, or tried to...
2014-07-04T18:17:26Z Krystof: I wonder what went wrong
2014-07-04T18:18:12Z stassats: well, i already built it
2014-07-04T18:18:50Z stassats: but i was hoping to make a release, so much for that
2014-07-04T18:19:32Z stassats: looks like it was not fully merged
2014-07-04T18:21:09Z stassats: the patch was only on for x86-64, and i just built it for x86 (because x86-64 failed to build too)
2014-07-04T18:23:07Z stassats: i think i want a gnu-kfreebsd feature
2014-07-04T18:27:14Z Krystof: isn't that GLIBC+FREEBSD?
2014-07-04T18:27:46Z stassats: right, but that's still different from plain freebsd
2014-07-04T18:28:03Z stassats: as in, not binary compatible, so, i want it to be different
2014-07-04T18:28:36Z stassats: so it'll have :gnu-kfreebsd :freebsd :bsd
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2014-07-04T18:38:43Z stassats: i guess that's for tomorrow
2014-07-04T18:39:08Z stassats: got today 16GB of RAM, to better run virtual machines
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2014-07-04T19:04:58Z stassats: i want to add "Support for kFreebsd x86" into the NEWS, but that would strange, considering that x86-64 couldn't be built out of the box
2014-07-04T19:12:38Z stassats: hope the dragonfly build will go fine
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2014-07-04T19:35:32Z stassats: ok, kFreebsd, x86 and x86-64, is now really supported
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2014-07-04T19:53:15Z francogrex: Hi I am unable to solve this issue of sbcl on armel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143101 anyone has pratical suggestions for me I would appreciate it?
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2014-07-04T19:56:20Z stassats: no
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2014-07-04T19:58:43Z stassats: besides running on real hardware
2014-07-04T19:59:40Z francogrex: I have real hardware, if that solves it then it'll be fine
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2014-07-04T20:00:30Z stassats: what's the point of running on qemu then?
2014-07-04T20:02:45Z francogrex: laziness to connect the phone really, I didn't think it can have different behavior
2014-07-04T20:05:36Z francogrex: in addition: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143101#1
2014-07-04T20:06:33Z stassats: that doesn't matter, it did map the memory, just at the wrong place
2014-07-04T20:07:01Z francogrex: ok then time to switch to the samsung..
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2014-07-04T20:17:49Z stassats: dragonfly success
2014-07-04T20:18:08Z stassats: maybe i'll upload a binary tomorrow
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2014-07-04T20:20:53Z stassats: so, who
2014-07-04T20:21:03Z stassats: 'll port to something else this release?
2014-07-04T20:21:12Z stassats: gnu hurd anyone?
2014-07-04T20:22:26Z stassats: or IBM AIX
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2014-07-04T20:39:12Z stassats: i have access to AIX 7.1 on ppc
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2014-07-04T21:10:40Z pkhuong: jasom: so, it turns out that the hard part of precise GC is getting backtraces, if we use frame-level descriptors
2014-07-04T21:11:20Z pkhuong: that, and how to work with the calling/return convention (esp. variable # of values) in the presence of interrupts.
2014-07-04T21:11:38Z pkhuong: things are a lot easier if we stick to safepoint builds only, obv, but that's less fun ;)
2014-07-04T21:12:31Z pkhuong: a first hack might involve something like a shadow stack that only tracks boxed/unboxed/unknown for aligned words.
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2014-07-05T08:27:11Z _8hzp: Not sure how big a safepoint fan I am really, but it wouldn't seem absurd to base an improvement like precise GC on them, if that makes development of that feature easier initially...
2014-07-05T08:27:42Z stassats: is there any alternative to signals?
2014-07-05T08:27:45Z stassats: any other
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2014-07-05T08:58:51Z stassats: and the assembly format for aix is different
2014-07-05T08:59:05Z stassats: why on earth can't gcc use something consistent?
2014-07-05T09:32:15Z _8hzp: Hmm.  BTW.  Totally random idea: If we can scan the stack correctly anyway (as required for precise GC), I wonder how much simpler p/a could be.
2014-07-05T09:32:30Z _8hzp: Nothing special would be required on entry, since we could inspect PCs to figure out whether a thread is in an instruction that we know statically to be within p/a.  Then only on exit from p/a, go through the same safepoint-like trap that sb-safepoint builds have after p/a anyway.
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2014-07-05T17:29:37Z stassats: the aix assembler is too different and the documentation is too thick for me
2014-07-05T17:29:48Z stassats: until next time then
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2014-07-05T17:55:41Z stassats: trying to optimize multiple-value-bind where values are discarded, that seems to require changing the calling vops
2014-07-05T17:55:46Z stassats: which is never easy
2014-07-05T17:56:57Z stassats: default-unknown-values assumes the tns are from the beginning and sequential
2014-07-05T17:58:58Z stassats: maybe a new tn subtype needs to be introduced, arg-tn for arguments and return values, which can have the argument number
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2014-07-06T12:55:58Z stassats: so, the gc problems are still there, even without the code-page conserativeness changes and with the alloc_sap patch
2014-07-06T12:56:06Z stassats: no luck in reproducing, naturally
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2014-07-06T15:07:40Z shka: hi
2014-07-06T15:08:00Z shka: does sbcl usse vector instructions when performing map?
2014-07-06T15:08:09Z shka: (is it even technically possible)
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2014-07-06T15:13:01Z stassats: it does not
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2014-07-06T15:35:01Z stassats: so, a forwarding pointer during scavenge means something was moved when it shouldn't have
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2014-07-06T15:38:40Z stassats: which most likely happen during a call to alloc
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2014-07-06T21:30:20Z |3b|: does it sound like a bug that READ eats a whitespace character after the closing #\) of a non-empty list?
2014-07-06T21:30:51Z |3b| isn't sure the spec explicitly forbids it, but seems a bit odd at best
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2014-07-07T13:31:45Z stassats: trying to find the gc problem, found an unrelated thread deadlock when creating and exiting threads at the same time
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2014-07-07T13:38:17Z stassats: it isn't critical, and i'm still at a loss about the gc issues
2014-07-07T13:38:50Z _8hzp: which platform?
2014-07-07T13:39:00Z stassats: x86-64
2014-07-07T13:39:39Z stassats: it looks as if the just allocated vector isn't pinned down and moved, but the reference isn't updated
2014-07-07T13:39:51Z stassats: but, i can't see how can that happen and can't reproduce it
2014-07-07T13:56:06Z stassats: i think it runs on Xen, but i don't think that is the cause, just makes it easier to trigger
2014-07-07T13:56:20Z stassats: though i can't reproduce it aritifically there either
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2014-07-07T20:19:13Z cracauer: Funny about the thread deadlock.
2014-07-07T20:19:42Z cracauer: When pounding the stability of the GC card/conservative patch I had a deadlock with a C thread backtrace
2014-07-07T20:19:54Z cracauer: os_sem_wait (sem=sem@entry=0x7ffff66a0040, what=what@entry=0x42d649 "wait_for_thread_state_change")
2014-07-07T20:20:34Z pkhuong: cracauer: linux?
2014-07-07T20:20:46Z cracauer: yes, amd64/linux
2014-07-07T20:20:52Z pkhuong: fun.
2014-07-07T20:21:03Z cracauer: I hope this isn't related to the GC fixes
2014-07-07T20:22:18Z pkhuong: I don't think lisp-side locking goes through os_sem_wait
2014-07-07T20:22:38Z cracauer: #3  0x0000000000417cf1 in sig_stop_for_gc_handler (signal=<optimized out>, info=<optimized out>, context=0x7ffff6492700)
2014-07-07T20:23:12Z cracauer: http://pastebin.com/pLX3SFaJ
2014-07-07T20:23:40Z pkhuong: yeah, so not a lisp object.
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2014-07-08T13:00:43Z pkhuong: minion: memo for beach: SBCL doesn't do CPS. WRT flow-sensitive analyses and mutable bindings, IR1 is your regular basic block of nodes + variable names representation. We've completely separated the flow insensitive and sensitive part of type propagation; more simplicity/speed, less precision.
2014-07-08T13:00:43Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-07-08T17:14:02Z joshe: oh boy
2014-07-08T17:14:57Z joshe: I try naively enabling sb-thread on openbsd/ppc and it dies in target-2 warm init, with no sb-show output
2014-07-08T17:16:24Z joshe: I'd assumed that compared to i386's ldt madness, ppc would just work
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2014-07-08T18:20:26Z Krystof: joshe: you're funny :-)
2014-07-08T18:20:49Z joshe: x86-64 just worked :(
2014-07-08T18:22:29Z Krystof: that's “lulling you into a false sense of security”
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2014-07-09T17:25:33Z joshe: oh, openbsd/arm looks like it'll be fun
2014-07-09T17:26:21Z joshe: I have the choice of implementing hard float on openbsd or implementing soft float on sbcl
2014-07-09T17:26:55Z pkhuong: joshe: I think the idea was to have software hard fp if possible ;)
2014-07-09T17:27:15Z stassats: wait, openbsd doesn't allow to you use vfp?
2014-07-09T17:27:22Z stassats: "joy"
2014-07-09T17:27:35Z joshe: openbsd on arm is pretty primitive
2014-07-09T17:27:55Z stassats: i vote for "implementing hard float on openbsd"
2014-07-09T17:28:01Z stassats: i reckon it'd be easier
2014-07-09T17:28:06Z joshe: yea, that's where I'm leaning
2014-07-09T17:28:18Z stassats: just some state saving on switches
2014-07-09T17:28:27Z joshe: right
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2014-07-09T17:29:49Z joshe: after staring at vm.lisp for a while, kernel hacking looks pretty easy
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2014-07-09T19:04:56Z stassats: so, the pvs thing, pa_alloc traps pa all in a cycle
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2014-07-09T19:14:09Z pkhuong: pvs thing?
2014-07-09T19:14:52Z stassats: sbcl-help
2014-07-09T19:15:10Z stassats: basically, pa_alloc is broken on arm
2014-07-09T19:15:30Z stassats: pa_alloc does pending_interrupt, interrupt does alloc_sap, repeat
2014-07-09T19:18:52Z stassats: i'm not sure how the initial cycle happens
2014-07-09T19:20:38Z stassats: maybe PA is broken? because it doesn't seem like it itself is being interrupted, but is coming up to a interrupted PA during run_deferred_handler
2014-07-09T19:24:53Z stassats: bombarding with sigprof doesn't seem to break PA
2014-07-09T19:27:32Z stassats: but, there's actually no PA deferring happening
2014-07-09T19:30:18Z stassats: okay, deferring now, no crashing here
2014-07-09T19:32:45Z stassats: here's the backtrace: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143133
2014-07-09T19:33:50Z pkhuong: pvs on arm? new kind of masochism.
2014-07-09T19:34:03Z stassats: it finds bugs
2014-07-09T19:34:13Z stassats: i have not the slightest idea what pvs is
2014-07-09T19:35:23Z pkhuong: well, we should be OK with being interrupted at the end of a PA section
2014-07-09T19:35:39Z pkhuong: we already know that the PA section in alloc_sap is too short...
2014-07-09T19:35:55Z pkhuong: gencgc or cheneygc?
2014-07-09T19:36:01Z pkhuong: could be we're out of heap.
2014-07-09T19:36:03Z stassats: gencgc
2014-07-09T19:36:06Z pkhuong: -c
2014-07-09T19:36:46Z stassats: it determines if it's a pending interrupt by examining the instruction stream, maybe i did do_pending_interrupt wrong
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2014-07-09T19:37:51Z stassats: #if 0 confuse me
2014-07-09T19:40:18Z stassats: indeed, it looks for swilt, and i'm doing swi #0
2014-07-09T19:42:16Z stassats: actually it looks like swi is now only used for PA, so i can remove the LT/AL handling and always assume it's PA
2014-07-09T19:44:14Z pkhuong: what do we use for breakpoints or error traps?
2014-07-09T19:44:24Z stassats: undefined instructions
2014-07-09T19:44:35Z stassats: no idea about breakpoints, are they even implemented?
2014-07-09T19:45:25Z stassats: FIXME: Implement suggests not
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2014-07-09T19:58:20Z stassats: well, fixing that i get unexpect forwarding pointer in scavenge: 0xbee5c61c, start=0xbee5c61c, n=1
2014-07-09T20:04:35Z pkhuong: that, I'll blame on overly short PA section
2014-07-09T20:06:37Z stassats: but there are no threads and nothing else should interrupt things
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2014-07-09T20:09:14Z pkhuong: the allocation itself can trigger a GC
2014-07-09T20:09:57Z stassats: i'll push the do_pending_interrupt fix and deal with that some other time
2014-07-09T20:10:50Z stassats: i guess that makes sense, since that's how pa_alloc ended up doing do_pending_interrupt and tripping over itself
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2014-07-09T20:14:54Z stassats: and i need to come up with a better test-case than building PVS
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2014-07-10T17:55:12Z stassats: managed a reliable, but a bit lengthy, test case http://paste.lisp.org/display/143133#1
2014-07-10T17:55:54Z stassats: basically, only do interrupts, forcing the allocation only to happen at alloc_sap, eventually alloc_sap triggers a GC and breaks itself
2014-07-10T18:01:16Z stassats: ppc is affected too, with a different error, though
2014-07-10T18:01:33Z stassats: maybe_defer_handler: gc_blocked_deferrables true
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2014-07-11T18:51:25Z krzysz00: Krystof (and everyone else): I've implemented a "first draft" of Unicode strings, which implements the sequence protocol and has documentation and tests. It's at https://github.com/krzysz00/sbcl/tree/unicode-vector-strings . Whene do you think I should go from here?
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2014-07-12T08:41:06Z stassats: krzysz00: i haven't read the code, but i'm curious how modifications are handled? is it renormalized after each (setf char)?
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2014-07-12T10:45:31Z scymtym: krzysz00: some (pedantic) feedback at http://paste.lisp.org/display/143152
2014-07-12T10:46:42Z stassats: scymtym: a comment would help more than such a type
2014-07-12T10:46:57Z stassats: which is never checked and upgraded to T
2014-07-12T10:47:58Z scymtym: stassats: i think the array part is checked at sufficient debug level
2014-07-12T10:48:20Z stassats: which isn't achieved inside sbcl
2014-07-12T10:48:21Z scymtym: but as the comment says: it is mainly intended for someone reading the code
2014-07-12T10:48:40Z scymtym: is there a cost to specifying slot types?
2014-07-12T10:49:40Z stassats: potentially allocating the (array string (*)) type
2014-07-12T10:49:58Z scymtym: i see, thanks
2014-07-12T10:50:22Z stassats: but ";; a vector of strings" is just as informative, even more easily readable
2014-07-12T10:50:41Z scymtym: sure
2014-07-12T10:50:59Z scymtym: i don't have strong feelings about comment vs. slot type in this case anyway; i just thought it would be helpful to document the type in some way since it took me a bit of time to figure out
2014-07-12T10:52:06Z stassats: isn't there a sfunction type?
2014-07-12T10:52:44Z scymtym: i think there is; for functions returning one value, right?
2014-07-12T10:52:52Z stassats: single-function, presumable
2014-07-12T10:53:04Z stassats: where single => single-value
2014-07-12T10:53:27Z scymtym: maybe it should be renamed like that
2014-07-12T10:54:58Z stassats: this is probably done at make-target-2, but for make-host-2, there's usually no need to declare types for internally used functions, since it has sb-ext:*derive-function-types* = t
2014-07-12T10:55:27Z stassats: somebody should make make-target-2 more similar to make-host-2
2014-07-12T10:58:51Z stassats: on a similar note, i think we should never return (values), but NIL instead, since it's cheaper
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2014-07-12T12:07:21Z morgan.freenode.net has set mode +o Krystof
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2014-07-12T12:46:05Z scymtym: Krystof: when would be a good time to bother you with you-know-what?
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2014-07-12T13:40:48Z Krystof: scymtym: maybe tomorrow evening (at about 8pm my time?)
2014-07-12T13:41:23Z scymtym: Krystof: great, thanks for taking the time
2014-07-12T13:41:31Z Krystof: no problem!
2014-07-12T13:41:50Z Krystof: (it's the fun bit)
2014-07-12T13:42:04Z scymtym: i hope so :)
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2014-07-12T14:25:01Z krzysz00: scymtym: Thanks!
2014-07-12T14:30:29Z krzysz00: Turns out that `(coerce '(#\a #\b #\c) 'string) => error, not "abc"
2014-07-12T14:35:06Z scymtym: krzysz00: no problem
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2014-07-12T14:35:43Z scymtym: (coerce '(#\a #\b #\c) 'string) => "abc" in my SBCL
2014-07-12T14:36:30Z krzysz00: Sorry, meant `(string '(#\a #\b #\c))` is an error, the coerce is fine, which is why I was using it.
2014-07-12T14:36:59Z krzysz00: Come to think of it, CLHS does say we are allowed to make STRING work like that. Maybe we should?
2014-07-12T14:38:04Z krzysz00: Sorry for camplaining, I didn't read the changes that well.
2014-07-12T14:38:50Z scymtym: no problem
2014-07-12T14:39:06Z scymtym: i thought i only suggested (STRING X) in places where X was either CHARACTER or a STRING
2014-07-12T14:39:16Z krzysz00: Yeah, you did.
2014-07-12T14:40:52Z scymtym: sorry if that's pedantic but at least performance-wise (string x) vs. (coerce (list x) 'string) is about two orders of magnitude (in my femto-benchmark)
2014-07-12T14:44:49Z krzysz00: I should change it then. Thanks!
2014-07-12T14:46:15Z scymtym: nice work btw.
2014-07-12T14:46:34Z scymtym: did you experience any problems with the sequence protocol or its documentation?
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2014-07-12T18:36:16Z Bike: Some odd behavior of type warnings was confusing somebody in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/+32GJ
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2014-07-12T19:10:31Z stassats: Bike: can't say that i'm able to reproduce that
2014-07-12T19:10:41Z Bike: I'm on 1.2.0.
2014-07-12T19:11:07Z stassats: 1.2.1.43 and 1.1.18.534
2014-07-12T19:11:49Z stassats: now, a different debug level may trigger it
2014-07-12T19:12:03Z Bike: this is in an image i just started
2014-07-12T19:12:20Z stassats: and it would be a general problem which is not fixed, type conflicts in dead code may
2014-07-12T19:13:54Z Bike: so, let's see, all the normal optimize decls are just 1
2014-07-12T19:14:08Z stassats: debug 2 here
2014-07-12T19:14:22Z Bike: i don't think it's a dead code thing, you also don't get a warning from (defun test4 (&rest x) (let ((m (car x))) (list (foo-bar m) (foo-bar m))))
2014-07-12T19:14:53Z stassats: code murderer gets to this before the propagator
2014-07-12T19:15:45Z Bike: ah, i don't get the warning at debug 2
2014-07-12T19:16:16Z Bike: i.e. (defun test (&rest x) (let ((m (car x))) (foo-bar m))) passes without comment
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2014-07-12T19:19:59Z stassats: so, the cast is applied to both branch of IF, and in one it's derived to mismatch, even if it's dead
2014-07-12T19:22:05Z stassats: though, that might indicate that the code doesn't look as intended
2014-07-12T19:23:24Z Bike: the code i made the test case from could be written better, i just thought this behavior was weird enough to mention here
2014-07-12T19:23:42Z stassats: so, here it's because of (if length-of-the-stack-allocated-&rest-is-more-than-one (car &rest) nil)
2014-07-12T19:25:09Z stassats: so, (test2) will really mismatch
2014-07-12T19:25:22Z stassats: it may be confusing, but it's not wrong
2014-07-12T19:27:05Z Bike: But test3 won't?
2014-07-12T19:27:42Z stassats: it's not really as clever, and i don't think that was intended
2014-07-12T19:28:11Z stassats: (foo-bar (the (or foo null) x)) doesn't produce anything, for example
2014-07-12T19:28:40Z Bike: yeah, i didn't think it was a bug, just weird
2014-07-12T19:29:13Z stassats: sometimes it is bogus
2014-07-12T19:29:35Z stassats: like (defun foo (x) (declare (fixnum x)) (the fixnum (if (zerop x) 0 (if (zerop x) nil 2))))
2014-07-12T19:33:41Z stassats: but it really should remain silent, since CAR can return any old thing, and complaining about NIL isn't useful
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2014-07-12T19:37:01Z stassats: maybe add a rule that if the mismatching node comes from a conditional, and the other leg is not mismatching, omit the warning?
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2014-07-13T19:10:36Z scymtym_: Krystof: i am ready to talk :)
2014-07-13T19:11:07Z Krystof: hi!
2014-07-13T19:11:10Z Krystof: I think I am too
2014-07-13T19:11:16Z scymtym_: hi
2014-07-13T19:11:54Z scymtym_: great, i put a list of my current issue here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143161
2014-07-13T19:12:02Z Krystof: and the great thing is that this can be the most secret conversation for four years, as everyone else is glued to the trivial sporting event
2014-07-13T19:12:26Z scymtym_: hehe, i suspected this to be a plan along these lines
2014-07-13T19:14:26Z scymtym_: does the agend*a* look reasonable to you?
2014-07-13T19:15:10Z Krystof: yes.  I think I can remember broadly what most of those are likely to mean :)
2014-07-13T19:15:48Z scymtym_: sorry if that's a bit terse, i was mainly intended as a reminder for me
2014-07-13T19:16:04Z scymtym_: do you have any other things we should discuss?
2014-07-13T19:16:25Z Krystof: I've made no progress at all on anything, so... no.
2014-07-13T19:16:47Z scymtym_: ok, should i just try to go through the list then?
2014-07-13T19:17:24Z Krystof: sure
2014-07-13T19:17:59Z scymtym_: i attempted to add a SPECIALIZER-TYPE-SPECIFIER protocol and i think it can be done
2014-07-13T19:18:14Z scymtym_: however, the current implementation is not quite right
2014-07-13T19:19:19Z scymtym_: if i understand correctly, such a function has to be called from PARAMETER-SPECIALIZER-DECLARATION-IN-DEFMETHOD which only has access to non-parsed specialializers
2014-07-13T19:19:29Z Krystof: argh!
2014-07-13T19:19:49Z scymtym_: i assume that means "correct"? :)
2014-07-13T19:19:57Z Krystof: that might be correct as it stands
2014-07-13T19:20:19Z Krystof: I think it's probably not ideal
2014-07-13T19:20:32Z scymtym_: my initial reaction was just parsing the specializer form, but that seems wrong as well
2014-07-13T19:20:37Z scymtym_: consider prototype specializers
2014-07-13T19:20:43Z Krystof: exactly
2014-07-13T19:20:47Z Krystof: it's probably one of these "make-method-lambda is at the wrong time" issues
2014-07-13T19:20:56Z scymtym_: yes
2014-07-13T19:21:01Z scymtym_: i think so
2014-07-13T19:21:09Z Krystof: really every protocol function should be at the metalevel
2014-07-13T19:21:20Z Krystof: except for the ones which explicitly convert
2014-07-13T19:21:47Z scymtym_: sorry, i didn't understand taht
2014-07-13T19:21:49Z scymtym_: *that
2014-07-13T19:22:20Z Krystof: oh, what I mean is that my rule of thumb is that if you have a metaprotocol function it should be working on metaobjects, except of course for the ones which are explicitly about raising or lowering
2014-07-13T19:22:45Z Krystof: so e.g. compute-applicable-methods takes a generic function object, not a name or anything like that
2014-07-13T19:22:52Z scymtym_: i see
2014-07-13T19:23:55Z scymtym_: however, since SPECIALIZER-TYPE-SPECIFIER would be invoked from a lexenv-sensitive form-mangling context, that may not be possible
2014-07-13T19:26:07Z Krystof: true
2014-07-13T19:26:31Z Krystof: bah, and I thought this would be the easy one
2014-07-13T19:27:13Z scymtym_: maybe a version operating on specializer forms in knowledge of the generic function class is sufficient
2014-07-13T19:28:24Z Krystof: possible.  It feels pretty dangerous, but also in keeping with the rest of the make-method-lambda things (like you don't get the real generic function or method in make-method-lambda, only the class prototypes of the relevant future classes)
2014-07-13T19:30:15Z Krystof: is the default implementation something that returns T, or something which does something like (specializer-type-specifier (parse-specializer-using-class <gf> <form>))?
2014-07-13T19:30:55Z scymtym_: the latter, currently
2014-07-13T19:31:36Z scymtym_: i think, this is like MAKE-METHOD-SPECIALIZERS-FORM, which always emit (parse-specializer-using-class …) as a default
2014-07-13T19:31:46Z scymtym_: *which could always
2014-07-13T19:32:03Z Krystof: yes, I'd accept that
2014-07-13T19:32:21Z scymtym_: ok, i will try that approach
2014-07-13T19:32:42Z scymtym_: still won't give us more precision than PROTOTYPE-OBJECT for PROTOTYPE-SPECIALIZER, though
2014-07-13T19:33:24Z Krystof: I think that's reasonable for prototypes, given their general nature, though
2014-07-13T19:33:50Z scymtym_: sure, i wasn't expecting any speedups there
2014-07-13T19:34:16Z scymtym_: and just so i understand that detail correctly: all of these functions have to be prepared to encounter a specializer object spliced into the form (as opposed to a non-parsed specializer form)?
2014-07-13T19:35:37Z Krystof: by analogy with class objects.  I can live without that analogy in general
2014-07-13T19:36:50Z scymtym_: at least when going through PARSE-SPECIALIZER-USING-CLASS, it comes for free
2014-07-13T19:37:44Z scymtym_: ok, i think i can make another attempt after this
2014-07-13T19:39:39Z scymtym_: adding arg-position to GENERALIZER-OF-USING-CLASS was sufficient for PATTERN-GENERALIZER and doesn't seem problematic for the other specializers
2014-07-13T19:39:59Z scymtym_: i you don't have objections, i would merge that part into the master branch
2014-07-13T19:40:16Z Krystof: yay!  Easier than agenda item #1
2014-07-13T19:40:19Z Krystof: I have no objections
2014-07-13T19:40:25Z scymtym_: great
2014-07-13T19:41:20Z scymtym_: COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-ARGUMENTS-FUNCTION deserves a bit more of a discussion i think
2014-07-13T19:42:22Z scymtym_: the current protocol is compute-effective-arguments-function generic-function num-required => (lambda (args generalizers))
2014-07-13T19:43:15Z scymtym_: where the returned function is supposed to turn ARGS into an "effective argument" list compatible to what MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA constructed
2014-07-13T19:43:59Z Krystof: this is a novelty on the pattern-specializer branch, right?
2014-07-13T19:44:06Z scymtym_: yes, not yet merged
2014-07-13T19:44:17Z scymtym_: the competing design was a generic function GENERALIZER-EXTRA-ARGS which would be called from the discriminating function
2014-07-13T19:44:40Z Krystof: this feels more like a compile-time/make-method-lambda-time thing to me
2014-07-13T19:45:47Z scymtym_: the processing, regardless of how it is done, has to happen as part of the discriminating function before the effective method is invoked
2014-07-13T19:46:08Z Krystof: oh true
2014-07-13T19:46:59Z Krystof: though the fewer calls to generic functions at generic-function-call time the better
2014-07-13T19:47:15Z scymtym_: allowing a specializable generic function to do this processing in one ordinary function was mainly a performance-driven decision (but i think the similarity to COMPUTE-DISCRIMINATING-FUNCTION is a plus)
2014-07-13T19:47:25Z Krystof: right
2014-07-13T19:47:27Z scymtym_: yes, that's what the first design achives
2014-07-13T19:47:31Z scymtym_: *achieves
2014-07-13T19:48:02Z scymtym_: and returning nil from COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-ARGUMENTS-FUNCTION elides the entire portion of the protocol at invocation time
2014-07-13T19:48:19Z Krystof: that sounds like a nice feature
2014-07-13T19:48:21Z scymtym_: which is what the default method on COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-ARGUMENTS-FUNCTION does
2014-07-13T19:48:28Z Krystof: pay only for the features you use, etc
2014-07-13T19:48:48Z scymtym_: i.e. "normal" specializable generic functions don't have to concern themselves with this
2014-07-13T19:49:13Z Krystof: right
2014-07-13T19:49:17Z scymtym_: so the overall protocol design for this sounds ok?
2014-07-13T19:50:24Z Krystof: yes, I think so
2014-07-13T19:51:07Z scymtym_: ok, i will probably need help with the details when it comes to lambda-list and arg-count checking inside the PCL guts
2014-07-13T19:51:23Z Krystof: ok
2014-07-13T19:51:29Z scymtym_: at least that's what some mysterious errors indicate :)
2014-07-13T19:51:42Z Krystof: mysterious errors are a learning opportunity :)
2014-07-13T19:52:14Z scymtym_: but the TODO list for this project already has lots of learning opportunities :P
2014-07-13T19:54:17Z scymtym_: COMPUTE-GENERALIZER-FUNCTION is basically lifted from PATTERN-GENERIC-FUNCTION since there seemed to be few things specific to PATTERN-GENERIC-FUNCTION in it
2014-07-13T19:55:31Z Krystof: hm, is that the right name?  compute-argument-generalizing-function?  (by analogy with compute-discriminating-function?)
2014-07-13T19:55:56Z scymtym_: yes! that's a much better name
2014-07-13T19:57:22Z scymtym_: if adopted, it would from another subprotocol of COMPUTE-DISCRIMINATING-FUNCTION
2014-07-13T19:58:05Z scymtym_: when the protocol was is not implemented, the default method falls back to GENERALIZER-OF-USING-CLASS
2014-07-13T19:58:08Z Krystof: right, and its default is something that calls generalizer(s)-of-using-class...
2014-07-13T19:58:23Z Krystof: ...
2014-07-13T19:58:24Z Krystof: yes
2014-07-13T19:59:27Z scymtym_: for PATTERN-SPECIALIZER this allows returning the (lambda (arg) (optima:match arg …)) functions
2014-07-13T20:00:26Z scymtym_: the part in the specializable system will take care of putting these in a simple-vector corresponding to the required parameters and pulling them out efficiently when generalizers have to be computed
2014-07-13T20:03:23Z scymtym_: so, should this go into the master branch?
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2014-07-13T20:05:42Z Krystof: I think so, yes
2014-07-13T20:05:50Z Krystof: I don't think we have too many users to worry about yet
2014-07-13T20:05:59Z Krystof: *bliss* :)
2014-07-13T20:06:15Z scymtym_: true
2014-07-13T20:07:18Z scymtym_: as a side note: if i'm not mistaken, this make GENERALIZER-EQUAL-HASH-KEY the only mandatory generic function call at method invocation time
2014-07-13T20:07:29Z scymtym_: but that's for later
2014-07-13T20:08:00Z Krystof: but it seems consistent in design: have some intermediate functions in the discriminating function also computed by generic functions, with defaults being the slow full-protocol versions
2014-07-13T20:08:25Z scymtym_: yes, i like it as well
2014-07-13T20:08:27Z Krystof: right, and we'd be looking to allow the metaprogrammer to specify their own cacheing, eventually
2014-07-13T20:08:49Z scymtym_: i hope we can do that at some point, yes
2014-07-13T20:10:04Z scymtym_: at least when planning for myself, i would like to tackle extensible cacheing later, though
2014-07-13T20:11:36Z scymtym_: then there is MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA-USING-SPECIALIZERS …
2014-07-13T20:12:28Z Krystof: ... indeed
2014-07-13T20:12:40Z scymtym_: i don't particularly like it, but it seems unavoidable for things like PATTERN-SPECIALIZER
2014-07-13T20:12:57Z scymtym_: and it does indeed work for PATTERN-SPECIALIZER :)
2014-07-13T20:14:14Z scymtym_: the method for PATTERN-SPECIALIZER currently parses the specializer forms which implies that they cannot depend on the lexenv
2014-07-13T20:14:33Z scymtym_: but that's the case for optima patterns, if i understand correctly
2014-07-13T20:14:40Z scymtym_: they seem self-contained
2014-07-13T20:15:04Z Krystof: ok, this is going to have to be another case where the metaprogrammer will have to understand the implications
2014-07-13T20:15:43Z scymtym_: yes, i doesn't make the MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA-issue any better or worse, i guess
2014-07-13T20:15:51Z scymtym_: s/i/it/
2014-07-13T20:16:33Z Krystof: it's perhaps a little more awkward, in that it's something that can depend on the actual specializer object rather than just its class
2014-07-13T20:16:44Z Krystof: unlike ordinary make-method-lambda which explicitly can't
2014-07-13T20:17:11Z Krystof: but implicitly through PARAMETER-SPECIALIZER-DECLARATION-IN-DEFMETHOD it secretly already is
2014-07-13T20:17:23Z scymtym_: how so? MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA-USING-SPECIALIZERS receives non-parsed specializer forms
2014-07-13T20:17:28Z scymtym_: (maybe the name is bad then)
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2014-07-13T20:19:02Z scymtym_: maybe i see. it can depend on the actual details of the specializer "specifier" form?
2014-07-13T20:19:20Z Krystof: right
2014-07-13T20:19:43Z scymtym_: yes, but that seems unavoidable if anything useful should be doable with it
2014-07-13T20:19:49Z Krystof: but that's probabl... unavoidable, yes
2014-07-13T20:19:57Z scymtym_: :)
2014-07-13T20:20:03Z scymtym_: final technical issue would be MAKE-SPECIALIZER-FORM-USING-CLASS
2014-07-13T20:21:01Z Krystof: I'm not sure I remember this issue
2014-07-13T20:21:46Z scymtym_: main motivation being that each specializable generic function class had its own MAKE-METHOD-SPECIALIZERS-FORM method, complete with iterating over over specializers and special-casing the builtin specializer classes
2014-07-13T20:22:44Z scymtym_: MAKE-METHOD-SPECIALIZERS-FORM delegating to MAKE-SPECIALIZER-FORM-USING-CLASS for each specializer enables avoiding that boilerplate
2014-07-13T20:22:58Z Krystof: fine
2014-07-13T20:23:00Z scymtym_: (and makes things like calling the next method for a single specializer easier)
2014-07-13T20:23:35Z scymtym_: ok, so much for technical issues
2014-07-13T20:24:30Z scymtym_: actually, the first "conceptual" issue about binding slot allocation is rather technical as well
2014-07-13T20:24:31Z scymtym_: :)
2014-07-13T20:24:54Z Krystof: uhoh
2014-07-13T20:25:20Z scymtym_: btw: do you still have time and motivation?
2014-07-13T20:25:40Z Krystof: some time
2014-07-13T20:25:45Z Krystof: about 15 more minutes only, I'm afraid
2014-07-13T20:26:05Z Krystof: motivation is still OK for now but if it gets very hard we might have to reschedule
2014-07-13T20:26:22Z scymtym_: maybe the "counterexample" is the most pressing issue then
2014-07-13T20:26:54Z scymtym_: i will try to outline the idea and we can think about it "offline" until our next discussion?
2014-07-13T20:27:34Z Krystof: right
2014-07-13T20:28:02Z Krystof: and maybe we should schedule a discussion more closely than our previous schedule
2014-07-13T20:28:02Z scymtym_: your counterexample was having patterns like (cons 1 x), (cons y 2) and then forcing them into a connected component by adding (cons x y)
2014-07-13T20:28:11Z Krystof: when's the next major sporting occasion? :)
2014-07-13T20:28:15Z Krystof: right
2014-07-13T20:28:39Z scymtym_: i'm on parental leave, so there are few constraints for me
2014-07-13T20:28:48Z scymtym_: you can mostly choose a time, i think
2014-07-13T20:29:06Z Krystof: the usual example in predicate dispatch is having evenp and primep predicates, and then worrying about (eql 2) and number
2014-07-13T20:30:05Z scymtym_: one problem was recognizing PATTERN-MORE-SPECIFIC-P relations in such cases
2014-07-13T20:30:40Z scymtym_: i think this can be solved by applying an approach from the paper mentioned by pkhuong
2014-07-13T20:31:11Z scymtym_: Ucko, Aaron Mark (2001): Predicate Dispatching in the Common Lisp Object System
2014-07-13T20:32:02Z Krystof: that's embarassingly not one I've read
2014-07-13T20:32:35Z scymtym_: imagine how embarrassing it was for me :)
2014-07-13T20:32:43Z scymtym_: it basically involves transforming both patterns into conjunctive normal form and then checking whether one logically implies the other
2014-07-13T20:33:19Z Krystof: ok
2014-07-13T20:33:46Z Krystof: also, congratulations :)
2014-07-13T20:33:58Z scymtym_: thanks
2014-07-13T20:34:14Z scymtym_: i hope to obtain from this whether 1. the patterns are equal 2. disjoint 3. distinct but not necessarily disjoint 4. one implies the other 5. same but reversed
2014-07-13T20:34:45Z Krystof: ok.  It sounds like I should read this paper before we next speak
2014-07-13T20:35:59Z scymtym_: skimming will probably suffice since its 50 % code and some of the complexity comes from transforming predicates specified in CL into logical expressions
2014-07-13T20:36:19Z Krystof: Tuesday evening, then?
2014-07-13T20:36:39Z scymtym_: sure, which time would be good?
2014-07-13T20:36:51Z Krystof: 19:30 my time?
2014-07-13T20:37:01Z scymtym_: great
2014-07-13T20:37:16Z scymtym_: i will try to merge some of the technical things into master in the meantime
2014-07-13T20:37:46Z scymtym_: ok, thanks and have a nice evening
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2014-07-13T20:39:23Z Krystof: thank you!
2014-07-13T20:39:30Z Krystof: speak soon
2014-07-13T20:39:56Z Krystof: (we appear not to have missed anything of significance out there in the world)
2014-07-13T20:40:46Z scymtym_: well, people making noise outside may have different opinion :)
2014-07-13T20:46:12Z pkhuong: myeah... I
2014-07-13T20:46:12Z minion: pkhuong, memo from beach: Thanks.  I was lead to believe that SBCL does CPS by something stassats said.  I must have misunderstood.
2014-07-13T20:46:20Z pkhuong: m away of anything that involves CNF ;)
2014-07-13T20:47:32Z pkhuong: FWIW, if uninterpreted functions are OK, ROBDD strike me like a good way to both check for equivalence/implication/disjointness *and* generate dispatch graphs.
2014-07-13T20:48:19Z pkhuong: with a suitable ordering, I think they would also work for subtype-style relationships (i.e., patterns that are fully implied by another)
2014-07-13T20:49:02Z scymtym_: pkhuong: thanks for the pointer, i have go away for a bit
2014-07-13T20:49:05Z pkhuong: but not for fancier things like C is the conjunction of A and B.
2014-07-13T20:49:20Z pkhuong: *I'm wary, rather than away (interesting latency induced typos ;)
2014-07-13T20:49:42Z pkhuong: anyway, gl
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2014-07-14T10:00:25Z joshe: boy, sbcl on arm makes my old ppc machine lool pretty speedy
2014-07-14T10:00:34Z joshe: *look
2014-07-14T10:05:22Z Krystof: heh, yes
2014-07-14T10:05:32Z Krystof: what's your arm board?
2014-07-14T10:07:21Z joshe: beaglebone black
2014-07-14T10:07:33Z Krystof: it's faster on that than on a pi :)
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2014-07-14T10:08:00Z joshe: hm, getting an illegal instruction in target-2
2014-07-14T10:08:09Z Krystof: but yes.  One project for someone with enthusiasm is to annotate the instructions with latencies and then turn on the instruction scheduler
2014-07-14T10:09:13Z Krystof: joshe: hmm, curses.  I haven't built on beaglebone for a while
2014-07-14T10:09:15Z Krystof: let me spin it up
2014-07-14T10:09:28Z joshe: note that this is under openbsd
2014-07-14T10:09:47Z joshe: and it's also the first time I've tried target-2 :)
2014-07-14T10:09:51Z Krystof: ah
2014-07-14T10:09:58Z Krystof: well let me check under linux in any case
2014-07-14T10:11:38Z joshe: interesting, the illegal instruction looks an awful lot like a memory address
2014-07-14T10:14:03Z joshe: oh nevermind, gdb failure
2014-07-14T10:16:12Z joshe: same address and value every time: 0xe7f001f0
2014-07-14T10:16:16Z joshe: bbl, food
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2014-07-14T13:52:11Z Krystof: interestingly my beaglebone build seems to be spinning in compiling CHDIR.7
2014-07-14T13:52:30Z Krystof: just trying to see if that's reproducible
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2014-07-14T14:39:10Z Krystof: huh
2014-07-14T14:39:26Z Krystof: a fresh-built sbcl on my beaglebone gives memory faults on undefined functions
2014-07-14T14:40:18Z Krystof: this is new.  (And the CHDIR.7 spinning is reproducible)
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2014-07-14T15:36:22Z krzysz00: Krystof: Do you think it's a good time for me to start working on merging in my unicode-algorithms branch?
2014-07-14T15:36:37Z krzysz00: That way I wouldn't just do one big code dump at the end of the summer.
2014-07-14T15:36:59Z Krystof: You need to have such a code dump ready for google
2014-07-14T15:37:46Z Krystof: I think it largely depends on you, though -- in an ideal world you don't vanish in a puff of smoke at the end of the summer, but remain active and engaged in the community.  If that's not going to happen, then we should definitely merge earlier rather than later
2014-07-14T15:38:19Z Krystof: Some useful work preliminary to merging would be to take the various branches that make changes to core code, and build the quicklisp world to see what breaks
2014-07-14T15:39:51Z krzysz00: Yeah, I don't plan on vanishing.
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2014-07-14T15:43:14Z krzysz00: I was mostly thinking that it would be a good idea to get in the core-changing parts (database rewrite, SB-UNICODE package, reader changes) in around now, since they're mostly done and the Unicode strings work only depends on them a little bit right now (we alread had normalize-string before I started my project).
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2014-07-14T15:45:23Z krzysz00: quicklisp-controller is what gets used to check for world failures right?
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2014-07-14T19:14:04Z krzysz00: Krystof: Quicklisp world still builds with my changes (well, the failures are network errors)
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2014-07-15T13:47:44Z names: ccl-logbot oleo fridim_ eudoxia Intensity _hmt jrm ivan`` les Posterdati mood alchemis7 pkhuong loke foom |3b| joshe irsol scymtym_ krzysz00 reb` jackdaniel antoszka pchrist arrdem qbit p_l yauz edgar-rft angavrilov @Krystof slyrus ams DGASAU karswell` overdrive Shinmera Cymew erikvarga michael_lee christoph_debian Bike kanru nicdev hzp milosn jaimef ferada faheem redline6561 jsnell jdz p_l|backup brucem fe[nl]ix notori0us carvite White__Flame phf Blkt luis
2014-07-15T13:47:44Z names: fikusz jasom flip214
2014-07-15T13:47:44Z verne.freenode.net:#sbcl- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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2014-07-15T18:34:19Z Krystof: scymtym_: I have now read Ucko's thesis
2014-07-15T18:34:32Z scymtym_: Krystof: hi
2014-07-15T18:35:08Z Krystof: I think I have actually read it before
2014-07-15T18:35:24Z Krystof: I don't know why I didn't cite it explicitly
2014-07-15T18:35:40Z scymtym_: it was new to me when pkhuong mentioned it
2014-07-15T18:36:26Z Krystof: anyway.  The set of relations that he lists seem like good ones to derive for precedence calculations of patterns
2014-07-15T18:37:37Z scymtym_: yes, i took some ideas from it
2014-07-15T18:39:27Z scymtym_: for me, the current situation consists of multiple approaches for going from 1. patterns to 2. a logic-based representation to 3. relations between patterns to 4. a graph suitable for deriving match clauses and corresponding sets of specializers
2014-07-15T18:40:43Z scymtym_: i could outline the two approaches i tried and then there is pkhuong recommendation which i do not yet fully understand
2014-07-15T18:40:50Z scymtym_: *pkhuong's
2014-07-15T18:42:27Z pkhuong: it depends on where you expect the complexity of determining precedence will come from
2014-07-15T18:42:35Z pkhuong: pattern-specific stuff or boolean logic
2014-07-15T18:43:06Z scymtym_: maybe i should start by outlining what i did so far and then we discuss?
2014-07-15T18:43:29Z Krystof: sure
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2014-07-15T18:43:44Z scymtym_: ok, i will try to keep it short
2014-07-15T18:44:12Z scymtym_: first approach was doing everything in PATTERN-MORE-SPECIFIC-P, but that seemed like doing to much at once
2014-07-15T18:44:51Z scymtym_: second approach was normalizing patterns first and then doing the rest in PATTERN-MORE-SPECIFIC-P
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2014-07-15T18:45:40Z Krystof: can you give a quick example of pattern normalization?
2014-07-15T18:46:43Z scymtym_: basically reducing all terminal patterns to one match vs. no-match decision, e.g. (cons 1 2) => (and (cons 1 _) (cons _ 2))
2014-07-15T18:47:04Z scymtym_: in preparation for logic based processing
2014-07-15T18:47:59Z scymtym_: third approach was similar, transforming pattern into CNF and testing things like implication (a v !b) via iterative simplification to true/false
2014-07-15T18:48:56Z scymtym_: these approaches produced some tools and processing steps which i use in the final (so far) approach:
2014-07-15T18:50:29Z scymtym_: 1. normalize patterns as above 2. transform into CNF 3. determine relations (e.g. implication, disjointness) for terminal patterns 4. apply naive SAT-solver to test for relations (again implication, disjointness) of whole patterns
2014-07-15T18:51:40Z scymtym_: these relation allow constructing the same graph as before, but disjointness hopefully helps solving the previous counterexample
2014-07-15T18:51:54Z scymtym_: (that's already the next step after PATTERN-MORE-SPECIFIC-P)
2014-07-15T18:52:05Z scymtym_: that's basically what i did so far
2014-07-15T18:52:14Z scymtym_: and then there's is pkhuong's suggestion
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2014-07-15T18:53:24Z scymtym_: *there is
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2014-07-15T18:59:42Z scymtym_: pkhuong: iiuc, robdd could be employed by constructing one for each pattern and then efficiently performing logical operations such as testing for implication or disjointness?
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2014-07-15T19:02:25Z pkhuong: right
2014-07-15T19:03:10Z scymtym_: what i could not understand was how they would help constructing the graph implied by these relations
2014-07-15T19:04:28Z scymtym_: (i.e. the final figure in https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/issues/1)
2014-07-15T19:04:29Z pkhuong: I don't think they would. Forcing the order of predicates should expose sharing in the dispatch predicate for each pattern.
2014-07-15T19:05:14Z scymtym_: where predicates are what i called "terminal patterns" (i.e. everything but and, or, not)?
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2014-07-15T19:05:52Z pkhuong: no, the whole thing
2014-07-15T19:06:01Z pkhuong: but I now see that you're trying to leave all that to optima
2014-07-15T19:06:54Z scymtym_: yes, there probably is redundancy between the work we do and the work we let optima do
2014-07-15T19:10:33Z scymtym_: ok, i think i understand what you meant. getting of optima for compiling the predicates is definitely for later, though :)
2014-07-15T19:10:39Z scymtym_: *getting rid
2014-07-15T19:12:56Z scymtym_: how should we continue from here?
2014-07-15T19:14:32Z pkhuong: don't ask me (:
2014-07-15T19:14:51Z Krystof: I'm not sure either
2014-07-15T19:15:03Z Krystof: I don't have a sense of which of these is easiest or most powerful or best
2014-07-15T19:15:07Z Krystof: so I guess try one and see
2014-07-15T19:15:34Z scymtym_: that what i'm currently doing
2014-07-15T19:15:49Z Krystof: excellent!
2014-07-15T19:15:50Z scymtym_: the "final" approach above seems to work so far
2014-07-15T19:16:41Z scymtym_: assuming a graph as in https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/issues/1 can be constructed in all cases (including disjointness, labeled "<>" there), i think the previous counterexample can be fixed
2014-07-15T19:17:10Z scymtym_: the counterexample (cons x y), (cons 1 y), (cons x 2), i think
2014-07-15T19:19:08Z scymtym_: the problem was that when (cons 1 y) matches, stopping there and collecting all less-specific patterns as potential next methods would overlook the (cons x 2) method in case the argument is (1 . 2)
2014-07-15T19:20:00Z Krystof: right
2014-07-15T19:20:54Z scymtym_: for such a graph structure (a parent and two children in the simplest case), if we can prove that the children are disjoint, everything is fine
2014-07-15T19:21:21Z scymtym_: they will be tried sequentially and only one can ever match
2014-07-15T19:23:31Z scymtym_: the situation would also be fine, if the two child nodes had another child, more specific than both
2014-07-15T19:23:40Z scymtym_: e.g. adding a (and (cons 1 y) (cons x 2)) == (cons 1 2) node to the counterexample would resolve the issue
2014-07-15T19:24:23Z scymtym_: my assumption is that such a child (without attached method) can always be added to deal with non-disjoint children
2014-07-15T19:24:53Z scymtym_: a bit like unmoralizing
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2014-07-15T19:33:07Z scymtym_: this will of course get interesting for sets of patterns like (list 1 _ …), (list _ 2 _ …), (list _ _ 3 _ …)
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2014-07-15T19:36:59Z scymtym_: if you don't propose new counterexamples, i will experiment with this as well
2014-07-15T19:38:37Z scymtym_: my final topic would be rather technical again (if we still have time)
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2014-07-15T19:41:19Z Krystof: go on
2014-07-15T19:43:02Z scymtym_: i think i mentioned that bindings of pattern variables are transported in generalizer objects and injected into effective methods using COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-ARGUMENTS-FUNCTION and a correspondingly adjust method lambda
2014-07-15T19:43:08Z Krystof: yes
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2014-07-15T19:43:31Z scymtym_: the method lambda part turns out to be rather difficult
2014-07-15T19:44:25Z scymtym_: the problem is that bindings (which are stored in SIMPLE-VECTORs) are between applicable methods
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2014-07-15T19:45:33Z Krystof: "between"?
2014-07-15T19:45:46Z scymtym_: are shared between, sorry
2014-07-15T19:46:23Z scymtym_: so each place in a pattern that is accessible via a pattern variable in at least one method in a connected component needs an index in this binding vector
2014-07-15T19:46:28Z Krystof: ah, like the &aux things in Ucko's thesis
2014-07-15T19:46:47Z Krystof: or not like.  OK, I see
2014-07-15T19:47:20Z scymtym_: i also use &aux for making bindings available, but differently
2014-07-15T19:48:23Z scymtym_: the discriminating function has to construct a vector with parts of the argument stored in the positions where methods expect them
2014-07-15T19:49:14Z scymtym_: method lambdas look like (lambda (bindings PCL-ARG-STUFF &aux (PATTERN-VAR (svref bindings INDEX))) …)
2014-07-15T19:49:32Z Krystof: ok
2014-07-15T19:49:53Z scymtym_: allowing the body to access the matched part of the argument through PATTERN-VAR, but INDEX has to known at DEFMETHOD time
2014-07-15T19:50:26Z scymtym_: and it cannot change if additional methods are later defined in the same connected component (because that would require recompiling existing methods)
2014-07-15T19:50:59Z Krystof: I think the traditional solution to what I think the problem might be is another layer of indirection
2014-07-15T19:51:34Z Krystof: so instead of that lambda list, you have (lambda (bindings permutations pcl-arg-stuff &aux (pattern-var (svref bindings (svref permutations index)))) ...)
2014-07-15T19:51:57Z Krystof: pcl itself does this for slot access within methods
2014-07-15T19:52:23Z scymtym_: i thought of that as well, but i think it can be avoid at the cost of sometimes wasting binding vector slots
2014-07-15T19:52:30Z scymtym_: *avoided
2014-07-15T19:52:45Z Krystof: a non-traditional solution!  OK
2014-07-15T19:53:09Z scymtym_: the question is whether wasting binding slots like this if worth avoid the indirection
2014-07-15T19:53:19Z Krystof: I don't know
2014-07-15T19:53:30Z Krystof: if you were a student, I would say "try it both ways" :)
2014-07-15T19:54:00Z Krystof: actually if you were a student I would say "wait where did you come from?"
2014-07-15T19:54:23Z Krystof: I would be surprised to find that this was the bottleneck in any real application
2014-07-15T19:54:31Z Krystof: so I would go for the simpler solution
2014-07-15T19:54:52Z Krystof: but if the wasting-binding-slots design is more interesting, I might be tempted to try that
2014-07-15T19:55:15Z scymtym_: i implemented that
2014-07-15T19:55:33Z scymtym_: i think i would like to keep it unless a pathological case of wasting binding slots is found
2014-07-15T19:56:56Z Krystof: ok
2014-07-15T19:56:57Z scymtym_: my initial solution was using &key arguments for passing bindings but that seemed wasteful and made things like not having &allow-other-keys for a given generic function hard
2014-07-15T19:57:14Z Krystof: &aux and a bindings vector seems reasonable to me
2014-07-15T19:57:56Z scymtym_: the complicated part is reserving and freeing slots on DEFMETHOD and REMOVE-METHOD
2014-07-15T19:58:55Z Krystof: right
2014-07-15T19:59:18Z scymtym_: i'm a bit afraid the current implementation may break for certain EVAL-WHEN situations
2014-07-15T19:59:41Z scymtym_: but like with everything else, i can experiment some more
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2014-07-15T20:00:21Z Krystof: ok
2014-07-15T20:01:03Z scymtym_: should i try and push intermediate results as separate branches?
2014-07-15T20:01:31Z Krystof: whatever's easiest.  At the moment I feel no immediate time pressure
2014-07-15T20:02:08Z scymtym_: i was thinking of curiosity rather than time pressure :)
2014-07-15T20:02:52Z Krystof: I'm curious, but absent an application or time to make one it is likely to be submerged by things that are more urgent :(
2014-07-15T20:03:06Z Krystof: but there are other people in the world, not just me
2014-07-15T20:03:15Z Krystof: so go ahead and push (and blog!)
2014-07-15T20:04:02Z scymtym_: ok, i will still let you know when i do
2014-07-15T20:04:50Z Krystof: thanks :)
2014-07-15T20:04:56Z scymtym_: thanks for listening and thinking this through with me
2014-07-15T20:05:01Z Krystof: a pleasure
2014-07-15T20:05:11Z scymtym_: (also pkhuong)
2014-07-15T20:05:24Z Krystof: and now, back to reality
2014-07-15T20:05:48Z scymtym_: Krystof: for me as well, have a nice evening
2014-07-15T20:13:42Z krzysz00: Krystof: Do you have a moment?
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2014-07-16T12:45:47Z flip214: pkhuong: in case you do the graphs (eg. in http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/04/13/k-ary-heapsort/) with R, would you care to share the snippet that paints them?
2014-07-16T12:48:27Z Krystof: bye eye it's ggplot
2014-07-16T12:48:33Z Krystof: "by eye" even
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2014-07-16T12:52:04Z flip214: Krystof: yeah, possible. I'm not that familiar with R, so if there's a way to get a nice first approximation of the 17 involved variables and parameters, I'd be happy.
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2014-07-16T13:05:46Z Krystof: google for "ggplot tutorial"
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2014-07-16T13:22:06Z flip214: Krystof: thanks. there are boxplots and qplot (points) ... but I don't see any error bar plots...
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2014-07-16T13:22:47Z flip214: but I'll read the docs
2014-07-16T13:24:20Z flip214: geom_errorbar perhaps?
2014-07-16T13:24:54Z Krystof: or geom_pointrange
2014-07-16T13:24:55Z Krystof: depending
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2014-07-16T14:06:42Z krzysz00: Krystof: Any thoughts on merging in unicode-algorithms (which doesn't break quicklisp world) or on where I should take unicode strings?
2014-07-16T14:19:42Z reb`: krzysz00: Have you written up your ideas in something like a Unicode string design doc?
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2014-07-16T14:27:16Z krzysz00: reb`: No, I haven't. Right now, I've writtten a unicode-strings contrib that implements the sequence protocol and is mostly documented. My original plan was to make Unicode strings work transparently with CL string functions but have Unicode-like behavior (for casing, say), but I'm not so sure that's a good idea anymore.
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2014-07-16T14:34:49Z foom: krzysz00: is your in-progress work online?
2014-07-16T14:34:56Z krzysz00: Yes.
2014-07-16T14:35:11Z foom: (where? sorry if i missed it being announced before)
2014-07-16T14:35:20Z krzysz00: https://github.com/krzysz00/sbcl/tree/unicode-algorithms is my Unicode support brancch
2014-07-16T14:35:38Z krzysz00: and https://github.com/krzysz00/sbcl/tree/unicode-vector-strings is that branch + Unicode strings
2014-07-16T14:36:07Z krzysz00: I'm looking to sumbit unicode-algorithms for merging into master, since I think it's effectively complete.
2014-07-16T14:47:09Z foom: Thanks, just glancing through the first, looks pretty reasonable to me. Only comment is that I'd suggest separating out the unicode-data into its own dir, and allow specification of an alternate source in the build process, because distros prefer to keep only one copy of the unicode database.
2014-07-16T14:47:46Z foom: e.g. in debian, the "unicode-data" package.
2014-07-16T14:50:34Z foom: I also wonder about the overlap between this and CL-UNICODE?
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2014-07-16T15:04:59Z krzysz00: The data gets compiled into a database during build, and I don't think debian complained before (especially since we needed to stay on 6.2 before I made my changes because of limitations of the old database format)
2014-07-16T15:07:31Z krzysz00: Many of the property accessors seem to overlap with CL-UNICODE (but we need them either to implement CL stuff or to do some of the algorithms, like SB-UNICODE:WORDS, which don't exist in CL-UNICODE)
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2014-07-16T15:17:27Z foom: I just meant that I think it's generally deemed preferable to build-depend on unicode-data, rather than using a custom copy of all the data.
2014-07-16T15:17:38Z foom: Not that compiling it into a database is bad.
2014-07-16T15:19:02Z foom: Is the SBCL stuff a superset of CL-UNICODE? I guess, is it possible to have cl-unicode become essentially a wrapper over sbcl's unicode support, on sbcl, rather than pulling in a second copy of the entire database?
2014-07-16T15:19:06Z krzysz00: It probably would be a good idea.
2014-07-16T15:19:40Z krzysz00: We probably didn't do it already because of incompatibility issues before I started my work.
2014-07-16T15:20:25Z krzysz00: Unfortunately, the SBCL stuff isn't quite a superset of CL-UNICODE, though we could make that happen at the cost of some more database bloat.
2014-07-16T15:23:34Z krzysz00: Mostly making most of the calls in slurp-proplist [tools-for-build/ucd.lisp] actually store tha data (I'm currently only storing properties I need for something).
2014-07-16T15:23:35Z Krystof: foom: historically we depend quite critically on an exact version of the unicode data
2014-07-16T15:23:47Z foom: I don't know the solution, but, it seems very unfortunate what happens with e.g. character set encodings.
2014-07-16T15:23:56Z foom: SBCL has a nice, fast, efficient implementation of those
2014-07-16T15:24:07Z Krystof: quite possibly krzysz00's work means we're not so dependent on the exact version any more
2014-07-16T15:24:17Z foom: But then you get a second, or maybe 2 other implementations which aren't as good pulled in by libraries you want to use.
2014-07-16T15:24:27Z foom: Because people want to write portable libraries.
2014-07-16T15:24:34Z Krystof: krzysz00: you could check whether there are any downstream users of any of the properties cl-unicode has
2014-07-16T15:24:36Z krzysz00: We're up to 6.3 now
2014-07-16T15:25:12Z foom: Many (all? unsure) of the properties are required for regex matching, because you can match against a unicode property.
2014-07-16T15:26:22Z foom: \p{xx} matches the character with the "xx" property. E.g. \p{Po} for "other punctuation"
2014-07-16T15:26:57Z krzysz00: Yeah, I think you can also do \p{Alphabetic} and things like that.
2014-07-16T15:27:18Z foom: \p{scriptname} certainly
2014-07-16T15:28:57Z krzysz00: Looking at CL-UNICODE, I don't have blocks, ages, the bidi mirroring glyphs (we don't deal in bidi), and many of the binary properties.
2014-07-16T15:29:11Z krzysz00: I also have the full case mappings, not the simple ones.
2014-07-16T15:31:49Z krzysz00: I should probably talk to the CL-UNICODE authors and see what they think I should do.
2014-07-16T15:33:49Z krzysz00: Possibly before we merge.
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2014-07-16T15:35:31Z foom: For strings, IMO, the only reasonable way to store unicode strings is UTF8 -- and don't pretend to provide O(1) access to arbitrary character numbers or grapheme-cluster-numbers. (basically nobody really needs that anyways...)
2014-07-16T15:35:45Z foom: But that mostly makes sense in designing a new language
2014-07-16T15:35:56Z foom: I have no idea what'd be best for retrofitting CL. :)
2014-07-16T15:37:03Z krzysz00: I think that we're currently doing funky UTF-32 (well, I don't know the internals, but it might even be UTF-21 + some kind of tag?) and providing O(1) to codepoint-numbers.
2014-07-16T15:37:14Z foom: yes, that's what the string type is
2014-07-16T15:37:25Z krzysz00: Unicode-strings currently provide O(1) to grapheme-cluster-numbers after they're constructed.
2014-07-16T15:37:41Z foom: O(1) access is required for CL strings, because they're supposed to be vector of character.
2014-07-16T15:39:05Z foom: CL doesn't really have an iterator concept, unlike more recent languages. That's really the right way to represent access to strings.
2014-07-16T15:39:23Z krzysz00: Yeah.
2014-07-16T15:39:37Z krzysz00: I can agree with that.
2014-07-16T15:42:01Z foom: I'm not sure what the use case is for grossly inefficient storage and O(1) grapheme-cluster access?
2014-07-16T15:46:11Z krzysz00: Main reason I've put that together is because I think that "sequence of grapheme clusters" is often a better abstraction than "sequence of codepoints", but my implementation is probably not very good.
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2014-07-16T17:02:20Z scymtym_: in case anybody wants to play with the pattern specializer stuff we discussed yesterday: 1. grab http://techfak.uni-bielefeld.de/~jmoringe/pattern-specializer-toy.tar.gz 2. extract in home (or copy .cl-notebook -> ~/.cl-notebook) 3. run pattern-specializer-toy (x86-linux binary, may work on x86_64-linux) 4. visit http://localhost:4242 5. C-RET to evaluate cells
2014-07-16T17:02:56Z scymtym_: note: 1. first cell needs tweaking 2. there will be bugs
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2014-07-17T18:12:47Z jasom: what are the semantics of pinning memory in sbcl; If I were writing a new gc, would it be permissible to move the memory at the time that it is pinned (And then leave it there?)
2014-07-17T18:21:46Z pkhuong: yes, but that'd make pinning a very slow operation
2014-07-17T18:24:05Z p_l: an interesting approach would be hinting for pinned allocation...
2014-07-17T18:54:07Z jsnell: I can't imagine moving memory at pinning time working
2014-07-17T18:55:22Z jsnell: it's such a basic runtime primitive
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2014-07-17T20:06:12Z jasom: does pinning happen a lot in the runtime then?
2014-07-17T20:08:50Z jsnell: quite a lot. hashtable accesses, alien calls are a couple of things that come to mind
2014-07-17T20:09:25Z jasom: It seems that for a copying incremental GC one of these has to be true: all non-pinned accesses are slower (i.e. check for forwarding reference) or all from-space accesses are slower, whether or not pinned (i.e. mprotect the fromspace and fixup in the segv handler)
2014-07-17T20:09:44Z jsnell: of course we only implement with-pinned objects on gencgc. on cheneygc it's simply a without-gcing
2014-07-17T20:10:29Z jasom: oh, that makes it easier then.  Does that mean gc can't happen if a thread is in an alien call though?
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2014-07-17T20:10:52Z jsnell: it's dodgy
2014-07-17T20:11:34Z jsnell: actually having a without-gcing around alien calls is not acceptable, so the with-pinned-objects is conditional on gencgc
2014-07-17T20:11:40Z jasom: I suppose I could make pinning work at page-size resolution
2014-07-17T20:11:48Z jsnell: and we live with the small race that introduces
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2014-07-17T20:14:58Z jsnell: seems that without-gcing kind of fights against the whole idea of an incremental gc :-)
2014-07-17T20:15:22Z jasom: jsnell: not for sufficiently fast operations
2014-07-17T20:16:25Z jsnell: which platform are you thinking of targeting?
2014-07-17T20:16:51Z jasom: jsnell: probably arm, since it already has precise gc, which makes certainl things easier
2014-07-17T20:17:32Z jasom: arm/linux specifically
2014-07-17T20:17:41Z jasom: (I don't know if non linux arm is supported yet)
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2014-07-17T20:18:27Z jsnell: ok. the without-gcing approach would not coexist nicely with threads
2014-07-17T20:19:07Z joshe: I started an openbsd/arm port, but it doesn't successfully load the cold core yet
2014-07-17T20:19:09Z jasom: again, depends on the duration of the without-gc calls
2014-07-17T20:19:35Z jsnell: with threading they'd be potentially unbounded duration
2014-07-17T20:19:38Z jasom: if we are talking microseconds, then a thread being delayed in allocation due to another thread being in without-gc might be acceptable
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2014-07-17T20:20:40Z jsnell: we pin stuff around the thread primitive system calls
2014-07-17T20:20:48Z jasom: oh
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2014-07-17T20:21:44Z jsnell: possibly it's just with futexes
2014-07-17T20:22:02Z jsnell: but then again, the non-futex threads always kind of sucked (maybe that has changed)
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2014-07-17T20:38:09Z jasom: so: all pages with pinned objects at the time of fromspace/tospace split are treated as pinned for the duration of the gc; that would work.  Any objects accessed in fromspace get copied to tospace, so pinning an object in fromspace would do a copy (that isn't too expensive since it could have happened anyway if we had seen the object just 1 instruction earlier) before pinning.
2014-07-17T20:42:09Z jasom: an alternative approach would be to maintain a separate heap for pinnable objects and move objects there only the first time they are pinned; if most objects are pinned large numbers of times, that could be a useful optimization.  I think I'll get the simpler method working first though and then measure.
2014-07-17T20:46:46Z jasom: does each thread have its own nursery on gengc?
2014-07-17T20:52:47Z jsnell: every thread has its own allocation region(s), which are basically just a small chunk of empty contiguous memory. each allocation region is a few tens of kB. when the region is exhausted, the thread gets a new allocation region
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2014-07-17T20:54:01Z jsnell: so you could kind of think of those as nurseries
2014-07-17T20:54:23Z jsnell: but the decision of when to trigger a gc is done globally, not locally
2014-07-17T20:54:58Z jsnell: and data might not actually get tenured out from generation 0 after a gc
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2014-07-17T20:57:30Z jasom: that actually makes more sense than nurseries
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2014-07-19T20:35:24Z ehaliewicz: does a hash-function supplied to make-hash-table need to return a fixnum?
2014-07-19T20:35:43Z ehaliewicz: assuming that's an sbcl specific keyword arg
2014-07-19T20:36:44Z Bike: it's in sb-ext:define-hash-table-test, i think
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2014-07-20T17:08:03Z flip214: is there some (internal) function that can be used to show the SBCL-derived types within a form?
2014-07-20T17:08:34Z Bike: I don't think type propagation is finished before the original form is pretty long gone
2014-07-20T17:08:36Z flip214: I'd like to put in eg. (DEFUN ...) and see what can be derived automatically.
2014-07-20T17:08:55Z Bike: if you cl:describe a function it'll tell you the derived type.
2014-07-20T17:09:01Z flip214: Bike: at least for (DEBUG 3) there should be enough information left.
2014-07-20T17:09:15Z flip214: only the "outer" types - arguments and return value.
2014-07-20T17:09:19Z Bike: yeah.
2014-07-20T17:09:27Z flip214: I'd like to know about the LET variables within.
2014-07-20T17:09:39Z Bike: i mean, it'd be a lot of work, you'd have to take IR1 and get a form back out, probably
2014-07-20T17:10:49Z flip214: can I get such information from the debug information?
2014-07-20T17:22:02Z flip214: The value #<FUNCTION {10012AD2E3}> is not of type FUNCTION.
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2014-07-20T18:42:00Z scymtym: Krystof: this is what i would like to merge into master a result of our discussion: https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/compare/next?expand=1
2014-07-20T18:45:36Z Krystof: a detailed review would likely have to wait a week, so I say go for it
2014-07-20T18:47:37Z scymtym: Krystof: ok, i merge that and we can repair later
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2014-07-22T03:45:29Z pillton: Is there a way to make COMPILE signal an error if it compiles a lambda form that conses?
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2014-07-22T03:49:50Z nyef: pillton: Such a thing is on my occasional wish-list, even if it wouldn't work if the form calls a separate function that conses.
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2014-07-22T03:50:38Z pillton: nyef: Ok. Thanks.
2014-07-22T03:51:03Z nyef: pillton: I have an idea for how to go about it, at least.
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2014-07-22T11:42:58Z rick-monster: hi I'm struggling with sbcl weak pointers and can't get an answer on #lisp. So here's a simple example I thought *should* work: https://gist.github.com/rick-monster/9740e14114ee7de1903b
2014-07-22T11:43:15Z rick-monster: was hoping someone might be able to point out where I'm going wrong?
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2014-07-22T11:56:14Z pkhuong: gc is conservative and this form looks like it gets compiled to a single function before execution
2014-07-22T11:57:45Z pkhuong: also, the weak pointer points to a literal which should be allocated statically, at compile time
2014-07-22T12:01:14Z pkhuong: (our gc is conservative in the sense that some values in registers or on the stack may be spuriously treated as references, which is particularly problematic until a function returns)
2014-07-22T12:03:20Z p_l|backup: a/ct
2014-07-22T12:03:22Z p_l|backup: grr
2014-07-22T12:26:14Z rick-monster: pkhuong: thanks for your reply - trying to digest the information! I have wrapped creation of weak pointer in a a function, and removed the (progn wrapper.  However still not behaving as I expected https://gist.github.com/rick-monster/0e650de722146589ffad
2014-07-22T12:28:13Z pkhuong: rick-monster: are you at the REPL?
2014-07-22T12:28:43Z rick-monster: yes I'm in the slime repl and have tried the same test in a bare sbcl repl
2014-07-22T12:28:50Z pkhuong: */**/*** etc still point at the value returned by the first call to weak-pointer-value
2014-07-22T12:29:09Z pkhuong: in slime, you can C-c M-o to clear the REPL and any reference via presentations
2014-07-22T12:29:21Z pkhuong: (just before calling gc)
2014-07-22T12:38:03Z rick-monster: that works - thanks very much!
2014-07-22T12:48:43Z pkhuong: (in the bare REPL, you can press return three times)
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2014-07-22T12:58:24Z rick-monster: hopefully won't continue surprise me when the code lives inside a package.  am trying to associate a tcp socket with a 'channel' (for communicating between threads) then if that channel gets GC-ed the socket server exits cleanly
2014-07-22T12:58:55Z rick-monster: thanks again for your help!
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2014-07-22T13:38:23Z pkhuong: rick-monster: it's usually better to use finalisers as a last resort in case of programmer error
2014-07-22T13:38:43Z pkhuong: constructs like with-open-file provide much better guarantee wrt resource exhaustion
2014-07-22T13:39:10Z pkhuong: for example, a program may run out of sockets before memory usage is high enough to trigger a gc
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2014-07-22T13:59:33Z rick-monster: pkhuong: going to try your suggestion - still getting some weird intermittent issues trying to force GC from the repl. Thanks again!
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2014-07-22T14:12:44Z pkhuong: You really don't want to unintern */**/***
2014-07-22T14:14:43Z pkhuong: mostly because it's a bad idea to unintern standard symbols (how are you going to multiply numbers now?), but also because it doesn't do what you want it to do
2014-07-22T14:15:18Z pkhuong: the symbols are still around and referenced, just not accessible via the reader anymore.
2014-07-22T14:15:58Z pkhuong: it helps because the return value of the calls to unintern are stored in *, ** and ***.
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2014-07-22T14:34:42Z rick-monster: think I need to study CL/sbcl/slime a bit more before attempting to play clever tricks with weak references. Thought this could be a fairly clean/easy technique to deal with my issue but seems (with-blah will probably be more effective for me right now...
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2014-07-22T17:46:53Z krzysz00: Krystof: I'm working on updating the SBCL database to Unicode 7.0. It turns out that 7.0 adds U+1F5CF "Page", which conflicts with U+0C, which ANSI CL requires to be named "Page". What should I do about this one?
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2014-07-22T19:45:26Z foom: renaming U+1f5cf sounds the best, unfortunate, choice.
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2014-07-22T20:00:49Z krzysz00: foom: Yeah, that's what I thought. I'll just special-case away that character's name with a comment.
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2014-07-22T20:23:27Z krzysz00: Ok, U+1F5CF is now nameless, and there's an extra paragraph in the documentation describing how SBCL extends ANSI character notation to accomodate Unicode, with a footnote about PAGE.
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2014-07-22T20:39:53Z Krystof: krzysz00: oof, nasty
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2014-07-22T21:40:28Z krzysz00: Krystof: My unicode-7.0 branch currently chooses ANSI compliance over Unicode compliance. Maybe I should mention this problem to the list.
2014-07-22T21:45:58Z nyef: ANSI compliance before Unicode compliance: ANSI was here first.
2014-07-22T21:46:23Z nyef: And unicode is a build option, ansi isn't.
2014-07-22T21:46:27Z p_l|backup: krzysz00: why not #\Unicode_Page ?
2014-07-22T21:47:34Z krzysz00: p_l|backup: I don't see why not, actually
2014-07-22T21:49:47Z krzysz00: Anyone see any reason not to do that?
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2014-07-22T21:50:40Z nyef: Quick, add "Unicode_" to the beginning of ALL of the non-standard character names! (-:
2014-07-22T21:51:04Z nyef: And recognize it as valid for the standard ones other than Page.
2014-07-22T22:04:55Z foom: to be fair, it's only a SHOULD in the CL spec. :)
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2014-07-22T23:00:07Z krzysz00: foom: My reading of the spec is that the name "Page" is a MUST iff the implementation supports ^L
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2014-07-23T08:43:48Z ams: #\Unicode:Page maybe even ..
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2014-07-23T20:07:17Z names: ccl-logbot Hydan fikusz ASau jaimef ltbarcly DGASAU scymtym nyef rpg segv- wheelsucker oleo slyrus edgar-rft erikvarga leo2007 angavrilov yacks christoph_debian psilord eeezkil ams redline6561 nicdev faheem jsnell fridim_ antoszka alchemis7 pillton irsol arrdem jdz jrm fe[nl]ix Blkt Bike Posterdati reb krzysz00 luis asedeno ferada brucem p_l|backup milosn @Krystof qbit pchrist joshe |3b| foom pkhuong mood les ivan`` _hmt jasom specbot minion yauz p_l
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2014-07-24T16:59:09Z reb: Interesting ...  On my Raspberry Pi SBCL 1.1.18.575-8f2d0ad compiles HEAD in 170 minutes.  I think previous compilations (more recent SBCLs compiling HEAD) took around 210 minutes.
2014-07-24T16:59:42Z reb: I will double check to make sure.
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2014-07-24T19:22:54Z Fare: hi. Can someone update SBCL's ASDF to 3.1.3 ? There might be some tweaks to how the contribs use bundle-op's — see my patch in https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1267006
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2014-07-24T20:04:37Z reb: OK, recent SBCL builds HEAD on my Raspberry Pi in 166 minutes, so no recent performance regression ...
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2014-07-24T21:33:45Z Fare: (upgrading sbcl's asdf is also a nice thing to do, because sbcl currently has patched its asdf 3.0.2 so it's different from the official 3.0.2, which is not nice to support)
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2014-07-25T16:13:55Z stassats: (make-array (- array-total-size-limit small-number)) gives all sorts of interesting results
2014-07-25T16:14:20Z stassats: with 10,  The value #<unknown pointer object, widetag=#x30 {10031C2ADF}> is not of type VECTOR.
2014-07-25T16:14:46Z stassats: The value 0 is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY * (*)).
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2014-07-25T16:16:27Z stassats: maybe it's only a printer problem
2014-07-25T16:16:39Z stassats: (type-of (make-array (- array-total-size-limit 1))) =>  (VECTOR T 4611686018427387900) for some reason
2014-07-25T16:17:00Z stassats: so is 2, but 3 is (SIMPLE-VECTOR 4611686018427387898)
2014-07-25T16:23:24Z stassats: i guess adding the allocation pointer overflows
2014-07-25T16:23:40Z stassats: (defun foo (x) (make-array (1- array-total-size-limit))) can't even be compiled
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2014-07-25T16:47:28Z stassats: the amount of bytes necessary overflows
2014-07-25T16:50:34Z stassats: and that wasn't a problem before 63-bit fixnums
2014-07-25T16:50:50Z stassats: (i guess)
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2014-07-25T17:21:27Z pkhuong: yeah, we used to have the guarantee that fixnum * word-size wouldn't overflow machine words.
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2014-07-25T18:21:29Z Krystof: maybe we should have a more reasonable array-total-size-limit :)
2014-07-25T18:22:29Z foom: I recommend at most 48 bits since you can't allocate more VM than that. :)
2014-07-25T18:22:41Z stassats: what about bit-arrays?
2014-07-25T18:23:14Z foom: sorry, okay, 56.
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2014-07-25T18:26:01Z stassats: even 48 bits are hardly alloctable, but i can live with just proper checks for overflows
2014-07-25T18:27:37Z foom: Sure, it's not actually allocable, but it is the maximum theoretically addressable.
2014-07-25T18:29:28Z foom: well, I guess it's not really cool to have an object wrap around from 0xffff800000000000 to 0x0000800000000000 either.
2014-07-25T18:29:32Z foom: So, 2**47. :)
2014-07-25T18:31:09Z stassats: ok, that's for x86-64, how much can you allocate on ppc64?
2014-07-25T18:31:43Z stassats: or arm64
2014-07-25T18:31:56Z stassats: (i don't think we'll ever see a proper alpha backend)
2014-07-25T18:32:20Z foom: here's a description of arm
2014-07-25T18:32:21Z foom: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/images/stories/pdf/lcna_co2012_marinas.pdf
2014-07-25T18:32:42Z foom: hardware supports two 48bit regions, linux runs it in 39bit mode though.
2014-07-25T18:40:04Z stassats: ppc may be 80 bits, but i'm not really sure what it means exactly
2014-07-25T18:40:36Z foom: 80 is bigger than 64, so that sounds a bit unlikely. :)
2014-07-25T18:40:50Z stassats: well, it's ibm
2014-07-25T18:41:18Z stassats: yep, it seems it's 80-bit virtual address space indeed, and 64-bit physical
2014-07-25T18:41:23Z foom: Maybe they implemented x86 FPU registers for compatibility, and then let you use them for addressing too.
2014-07-25T18:41:47Z foom: I think that must mean something else, because it uses 64bit VM addresses.
2014-07-25T18:41:54Z foom: Just like x86-64 and aarch64
2014-07-25T18:42:11Z foom: And you can't have more VM space than you have bits in your address...
2014-07-25T18:42:19Z stassats: it has segments, 28-bit for selecting a segment, then 52-bits within the segment
2014-07-25T18:42:31Z stassats: afair
2014-07-25T18:42:40Z stassats: afaiu, rather
2014-07-25T18:44:58Z foom: aha, https://www.kernel.org/doc/ols/2001/ppc64.pdf explains it bit better
2014-07-25T18:45:35Z foom: "In the PowerPC architecture, all processes must have a unique set of virtual addresses. In the PowerPC architecture, all processes must
2014-07-25T18:45:35Z foom: have a unique set of virtual addresses.
2014-07-25T18:45:38Z foom: er
2014-07-25T18:46:13Z foom: apparently I can't copy/paste properly from there
2014-07-25T18:46:17Z foom: section 3.4.2
2014-07-25T18:46:29Z stassats: so, a process has 64-bits of address space and the whole system virtual address space is 80-bits?
2014-07-25T18:46:53Z foom: yea, except I think they can't really use all 64 bits of space in each process either.
2014-07-25T18:47:19Z foom: It says (at least in linux) each process can use max 2**43
2014-07-25T18:47:45Z foom: I don't fully understand whether that's part of a physical limit or not.
2014-07-25T18:48:17Z stassats: maybe so that it can run on z/something or something?
2014-07-25T18:49:37Z stassats: well, it doesn't really matter much
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2014-07-26T17:03:29Z pkhuong: the next batch o x86-64 chips will have 50-something bits of address space.
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2014-07-28T10:49:35Z Krystof: go
2014-07-28T10:49:52Z Krystof: drmeister: could you please fix your client?
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2014-07-28T16:04:53Z krzysz00: Krystof: Is this a good time to start trying to merge in my unicode-algorithms branch?
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2014-07-28T16:05:53Z Krystof: are we at the point where what you have is a superset of cl-unicode?  I know you weren't, but I don't know whether you decided to take action to make it so
2014-07-28T16:06:12Z Krystof: otherwise, yes, it's the start of the month, so an ideal time.  What do you expect to go wrong?
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2014-07-28T16:14:46Z krzysz00: Krystof: We're not currently a superset of cl-unicode.
2014-07-28T16:15:29Z krzysz00: I could get a lot closer to being a superset at the cost of database bloat, but I'm not sure that's a very good idea since cl-unicode seems partially maintained.
2014-07-28T16:16:30Z krzysz00: Here's the conversation I've had so far: https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/issues/7
2014-07-28T16:17:20Z krzysz00: As to merging, I don't expect anything to go wrong except for some political controversy.
2014-07-28T16:17:35Z Krystof: right
2014-07-28T16:18:33Z Krystof: on the subject of database bloat, we could have one database that provides the things that we support, and a second (contrib) database which is loaded to help the cl-unicode things that we don't really have an opinion on
2014-07-28T16:18:42Z ams: instead of bloating the database, can't you just keep api compatibility (with performance degredation)?
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2014-07-28T16:19:12Z Krystof: so only those things which depend-on cl-unicode pay the extra database cost
2014-07-28T16:19:17Z ams: that cl-unicode is "partially" maintained doesn't really mean much i think ..
2014-07-28T16:19:35Z Krystof: (which is presumably a lesser cost than having a whole extra copy of the unicode database loaded)
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2014-07-28T16:20:52Z krzysz00: One possibility is that cl-unicode could call out to our database for the information that we have, and maintain its own copy of the things we don't include in SBCL.
2014-07-28T16:21:55Z ams: that won't work for non-sbcl implementations.
2014-07-28T16:23:19Z krzysz00: in the sense that cl-unicode conditionally doesn't load centain parts of its database on SBCL.
2014-07-28T16:26:38Z Krystof: transitively 82 things depend on cl-unicode.  Maybe a double-database for a while doesn't matter too much, but it would be nice to see what cl-unicode would look like post-merge
2014-07-28T16:27:35Z ams: "public" things :-)
2014-07-28T16:27:56Z Krystof: public things in my random copy of quicklisp that I have lying around
2014-07-28T16:27:59Z Krystof: let's be precise :-)
2014-07-28T16:28:04Z krzysz00: And a double-database is currenty something that has to happen, since we have Unicode 6.2/7.0 and cl-unicode has 6.0
2014-07-28T16:28:10Z ams: :-)
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2014-07-28T16:30:18Z ams: personally, all i care is that cl-unicode api is followed; if one has to pay for that with memory, or whatever, fine.
2014-07-28T16:32:13Z Krystof: how much database bloat are we talking to just make what we have a strict superset?
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2014-07-28T16:38:15Z krzysz00: Major new things would be block data, which could be fit in easily, but I'm not sure what the coult would be. and age information.
2014-07-28T16:39:34Z krzysz00: Aside from that' it's a few bidi things and a pile of binary properties, which would just add several new hashtable entries to the big property lookup table.
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2014-07-28T16:40:58Z krzysz00: We basically have the case data cl-unicoed wants, assuming we filter out the one-to-many mappings.
2014-07-28T16:41:34Z ams: what about amending cl-unicode?
2014-07-28T16:42:30Z krzysz00: Actually, the worst thing would be the unicode-1-name, which we don't store and could actually take up a fair bit of space.
2014-07-28T16:43:21Z krzysz00: ams: What kind of amendments are you thinking of?
2014-07-28T16:43:57Z ams: krzysz00: dunno, whatever to make cl-unicode and sbcl-unicode play along nicely.
2014-07-28T16:44:33Z ams: not well versed on the sbcl side, i jst don't want to change my stuff for sbcl... basically that
2014-07-28T16:46:01Z krzysz00: CUrrently, cl-unicode (the codebase) has no idea the SBCL database exists, which is genarlly good, since it's been an internal things until this summer.
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2014-07-28T16:59:17Z krzysz00: I think that we'd be looking at 1.5--2 new bytes in each misc table entry (plus many new misc table entries) and a significant expansion of the proplist
2014-07-28T17:00:35Z krzysz00: They'd need to upgrade their dataset, though, or else there would be weird compatibility issues.
2014-07-28T17:06:42Z krzysz00: I'm still a bit hazy on what exactly the Right Thing to do is when it comes to cl-unicode.
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2014-07-28T17:12:03Z krzysz00: Krystof: Thoughts?
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2014-07-28T18:14:31Z |3b|: //build started:  Mon Jul 28 18:00:05 UTC 2014
2014-07-28T18:14:31Z |3b|: //build finished: Mon Jul 28 18:13:57 UTC 2014
2014-07-28T18:14:36Z |3b|: not too bad
2014-07-28T18:15:09Z |3b|: Linux tegra-ubuntu 3.10.24-g6a2d13a #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Apr 18 15:56:45 PDT 2014 armv7l armv7l armv7l GNU/Linux
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2014-07-28T18:26:54Z |3b|: tests ended up in ldb though
2014-07-28T18:39:43Z Krystof: I think the different Unicode version would be reasonable (i.e. for cl-unicode to be 7.0-based on sbcl)
2014-07-28T18:40:23Z Krystof: things that are unicode-aware would then get the most-right answer on sbcl, and a no-more-wrong answer on anything else than it would have got in the first place
2014-07-28T18:40:45Z Krystof: what's the unicode-1-name?
2014-07-28T18:41:44Z Krystof: and if it shares the huffman table with the unicode names, does it add lots?
2014-07-28T18:55:46Z |3b|: seems to have been the "callbacks after save-lisp-and-die" test in core.test.sh, "Memory fault at 16 (pc=0x16, sp=(nil))"
2014-07-28T18:56:48Z |3b|: then integrity compromised continuing with fingers crossed and "internal error #35 (invalid array index)"
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2014-07-28T19:03:13Z |3b|: that core seems to behave that way consistently, anything in particular worth trying with it before i shut it down and go to sleep?
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2014-07-28T19:15:39Z krzysz00: Krystof: The unicode-1-name is one of the fields in UnicodeData. An eyeball shows that there's not too many characters that have them defined.
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2014-07-28T19:16:45Z krzysz00: Should I go ahead and add stuff that would help with cl-unicode compatibility?
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2014-07-28T19:55:29Z |3b|: and seems repeatable, guess i'll file a bug when i wake up if there isn't already one
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2014-07-28T20:39:07Z krzysz00: A grep-check shows 1978 characters with a value for unicode-1-name. I'm not sure it should go in the Huffman because many of those characters have names already.
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2014-07-28T21:43:31Z Krystof: krzysz00: if the Unicode1 name pieces show high redundancy with the Unicode name pieces, they could be encoded using the same huffman code
2014-07-28T21:43:56Z Krystof: krzysz00: yes, please.  I think the target for merge might be "cl-unicode implementation is trivial"
2014-07-28T21:43:59Z Krystof: because then there's a clear win
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2014-07-28T22:16:18Z krzysz00: Krystof: I've implemented bidi mirroring glyphs and imported the rest of Proplist.txt into the database. Tomorrow, I'll try to do blocks, unicode-1-names, and ages. Then we'll have a superset of cl-unicode in our database.
2014-07-28T22:24:43Z foom: I wonder if anyone ever uses unicode1-name, other than the testcase in cl-interpol.
2014-07-28T22:26:29Z krzysz00: If all of that goes in, cl-unicode will be trivial in that they won't need a database anymore.
2014-07-28T22:27:08Z krzysz00: I have no idea about unicode1-name. If "superset of cl-unicode" is in the spec for my project now, I'm implementing it, though.
2014-07-28T22:27:57Z foom: Sorry, yes, I was just idly musing.
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2014-07-29T10:35:05Z |3b|: hmm, guess someone committed more stuff while i was sleeping, should probably try building that before bug report :)
2014-07-29T10:36:30Z |3b|: and test on x8664, but i assume someone would have noticed that
2014-07-29T10:37:38Z ams: what are you doing?
2014-07-29T10:37:54Z |3b|: filing a bug report about test failures on arm
2014-07-29T10:38:33Z ams: none of the changes should affect that
2014-07-29T10:39:18Z |3b|: 'should' is a good way to waste time when debugging :p
2014-07-29T10:39:37Z |3b|: and i'd rather waste my time making sure than devs time :)
2014-07-29T10:40:14Z ams: read the commits, they don't touch arm in any shape.
2014-07-29T10:41:03Z ams: it is rather a waste of time recompiling for the sake of wasting time
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2014-07-29T10:41:44Z |3b|: well, no worse than sitting here talking about it on irc :)
2014-07-29T10:42:00Z ams: waiting for a compile to finish.
2014-07-29T10:42:14Z ams: i hate compiling
2014-07-29T10:44:32Z |3b|: also can spend the time looking for other likely changes to test to try to isolate it, looks like a 4 or 5 commits touching arm specific stuff
2014-07-29T10:45:01Z |3b| wonders how much slower running multiple compiles would be on this machine
2014-07-29T10:46:17Z |3b| will try that after this build/test run
2014-07-29T10:47:07Z |3b|: hmm, looks like my x8664 test run hit one of the rare random lockups instead :(
2014-07-29T10:52:31Z |3b|: ok, building and forgetting to pull the new changes first is a bit of a waste of time :/
2014-07-29T10:53:06Z |3b| will just report it on 1.2.2.1 i guess
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2014-07-29T11:23:11Z |3b|: filed as https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1349795
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2014-07-29T11:23:25Z |3b|: now to build some older versions
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2014-07-29T12:02:24Z |3b|: looks like it is either before 1.2.1.14, --fancy, or something about my build environment/system
2014-07-29T12:19:41Z |3b|: not too bad, takes about 2-3min longer to build 3 at once compared to a single build
2014-07-29T12:20:54Z |3b|: and 1.2.2.4 without --fancy passes tests
2014-07-29T12:21:09Z |3b|: well, passes that test
2014-07-29T12:33:38Z |3b|: ok, finishes test suite, 5 failures, 1 unhandled error, 1 invalid exit status
2014-07-29T12:44:55Z |3b|: invalid exit status seems to be due to "/usr/bin/ld: /tmp/ccHlBQCl.o: relocation R_ARM_THM_MOVW_ABS_NC against `numberish' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC"
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2014-07-29T13:24:57Z |3b|: looks like about the same test results as the official 1.2.1 binary
2014-07-29T13:27:12Z ams: it would be wiser to dig into the code and see why it fails than blindly recompiling things
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2014-07-29T13:27:24Z |3b|: ?
2014-07-29T13:28:32Z |3b| hasn't been 'randomly' recompiling things, unless you count compiling things around commits that modified arm files 'random'
2014-07-29T13:29:11Z ams: shurg, looks like it from here. you haven't tried to figre out why the test fails for ldbor whatever it is
2014-07-29T13:29:34Z |3b|: ldbor?
2014-07-29T13:29:49Z ams: ldb or ...
2014-07-29T13:30:04Z ams: anywho, back to hacking.
2014-07-29T13:30:31Z |3b|: ah, narrowed that down to configuration option, and went back to testing the default configuration
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2014-07-29T13:48:27Z |3b| wonders if the unhandled error in foreign-stack-alignment.impure.lisp is rare and i just got lucky that it happened when i tested 1.2.1 too
2014-07-29T13:53:02Z Krystof: that relocation name is hilarious
2014-07-29T13:54:21Z |3b|: that file passes with the fix suggested in the error message
2014-07-29T13:54:42Z |3b|: (the ld one that is)
2014-07-29T13:54:58Z |3b|: and foreign-stack-alignment does seem to be rare failure
2014-07-29T13:55:20Z |3b|: something like 1000 runs of just that file and 1 failure when running it by itself
2014-07-29T13:55:35Z |3b|: Unhandled SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR: Failed to find the TRUENAME of stack-alignment-offset.so:
2014-07-29T13:55:35Z |3b|:                                No such file or directory
2014-07-29T13:55:59Z Krystof: that's the failure? smells like race condition
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2014-07-29T14:13:08Z |3b| should probably run this test on external storage rather than using up writes on the built-in space :p
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2014-07-29T14:14:27Z brucem: pkhuong: do you have the misfortune of being around?
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2014-07-29T14:23:54Z |3b|: Krystof: ah, maybe that error was just me being stupid, think i may have run tests in same dir twice... possibly that file is also the -fPIC thing
2014-07-29T14:24:43Z |3b|: yeah, looks like it
2014-07-29T14:24:54Z |3b| forgot i changed something :/
2014-07-29T14:29:21Z |3b|: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1349830 if someone is bored and wants to fix it (1 line added to 1 file)
2014-07-29T14:30:52Z |3b|: and i think thats enough playing with arm stuff for today for me
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2014-07-29T15:42:02Z pkhuong: brucem?
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2014-07-29T17:32:47Z rick-monster: hi - working on sbcl bindings for the C library nanomsg and ran into this type of problem http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/14333
2014-07-29T17:38:27Z rick-monster: using the 'hack' solution there allows the image to continue running.  However subsequent calls to certain nanomsg library functions block indefinitely.
2014-07-29T17:40:04Z krzysz00: I'm adding block information to SB-UNICODE. I can't name the accessor function `block`, since that's a symbol in CL. What would be a good alternate name? `unicode-block`? `char[acter]-block`? Something else?
2014-07-29T17:40:23Z rick-monster: If anyone could offer any suggestions how to approach this problem that would be much appreciated!
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2014-07-29T18:52:13Z pkhuong: rick-monster: the expected behaviour from nanomsg is that the caller will drop core and stop
2014-07-29T18:52:28Z pkhuong: the library doesn't expect half initialised state to remain.
2014-07-29T18:53:15Z pkhuong: 1) find a way to completely reload the nanomsg environment. 2) get nanomsg to fix this feature that makes it hard to use the library in large application that weren't designed for crash-only.
2014-07-29T18:54:04Z |3b|: does sbcl interrupt foreign threads, or only when they return or call into lisp?
2014-07-29T18:54:33Z pkhuong: |3b|: do you have sb-safepoint or not?
2014-07-29T18:54:43Z |3b|: i could if it matters
2014-07-29T18:54:48Z pkhuong: sb-safepoint doesn't
2014-07-29T18:54:59Z pkhuong: they're the future, and likely what your game engine wants ;)
2014-07-29T18:55:10Z pkhuong: also foreign threads how?
2014-07-29T18:55:11Z |3b| wants a more-or-less-realtime thread, which presumably means C for now
2014-07-29T18:55:21Z pkhuong: completely foreign threads, or lisp threads in foreign code?
2014-07-29T18:55:34Z |3b|: whichever works best
2014-07-29T18:55:44Z pkhuong: we always leave really foreign threads alone
2014-07-29T18:56:20Z |3b|: so call a foreign function and it can start the thread, and should be fine as long as it doesn't try to look at lisp memory?
2014-07-29T18:56:31Z pkhuong: yeah.
2014-07-29T18:57:43Z |3b| would probably want safepoints etc eventually anyway for sound callbacks
2014-07-29T18:58:30Z pkhuong: or callbacks that push into shared lisp<->foreign [lock-free] queue/disruptor (:
2014-07-29T18:59:07Z |3b|: yeah, but i'm actually less likely to care about the sound being 'realtime' :p
2014-07-29T18:59:26Z |3b| is ok with just dumping a big buffer on that to cover latency
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2014-07-29T21:28:44Z Krystof: krzysz00: you could name it sb-unicode:block (and shadow cl:block)
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2014-07-29T21:31:51Z krzysz00: Ended up naming it sb-unicode:char-block (since having cl and sb-unicode at the same time seems like it would happen a lot).
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2014-07-29T22:01:01Z krzysz00: Krystof: The database on my branch has all the data needed to make reimplementing cl-unicode a small matter of matching APIs. I think.
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2014-07-30T04:37:05Z drmeister: Is anyone familiar with how SBCL destructures function arguments passed as arguments?
2014-07-30T04:38:43Z drmeister: I'm looking at passing arguments in a combination of registers and C/varargs  as in (int nargs, T* arg0, T* arg1, T* arg2, T* arglist[])
2014-07-30T04:39:01Z drmeister: The first three args arg0, arg1, arg2 would be passed in registers.
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2014-07-30T04:39:37Z drmeister: On the callee side I'm trying to figure out how they would be destructured into bindings for lambda lists like (&key x y)
2014-07-30T04:39:39Z Bike: i think there's some info in the internals manual. i think there are multiple call conventions? maybe some are only used for local functions, though
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2014-07-30T04:41:45Z drmeister: Yeah, pkhuong or someone else told me there was a calling convention for functions within compilation units and another more general one for calls across compilation units.
2014-07-30T04:42:12Z drmeister: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Calling-Convention.html
2014-07-30T04:43:06Z Bike: "full calls" would seem to be it
2014-07-30T04:45:36Z drmeister: Agreed.
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2014-07-30T04:48:25Z drmeister: It passes the first three arguments in EDX, EDI and ESI   - it also says that it creates a partial frame on the stack top and stores stack arguments in that frame.   Do you think that means arguments 4 on are on the stack?
2014-07-30T05:16:58Z drmeister: |3b| The "full call" convention passes the first three arguments in registers EDX, EDI and ESI and (I think) the rest are on the stack?    Or could it be they pass all arguments on the stack and the first three arguments _as well_ in registers EDX, EDI and ESI?    My reading of this: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Full-Calls.html#Full-Calls   doesn't clarify.
2014-07-30T05:17:43Z |3b|: not sure about sbcl specifically, but i understand it is common to at least leave space for the args passes in registers on the stack
2014-07-30T05:25:49Z drmeister: |3b| Hmm, that's an interesting thought - "leaving space for the args passed in registers on the stack".  I don't think I can do that as efficiently as SBCL because LLVM doesn't give me that kind of fine control.    I could call functions like this though (example passing 4 args)  FOO(4,arg0, arg1, arg2, arg0, arg1, arg2, arg3 )  The first three are passed in registers as well as on the stack.    Then the callee c
2014-07-30T05:25:49Z drmeister: ould use the stack values or the register values depending on the lambda list of the callee.
2014-07-30T05:26:28Z drmeister: It's getting weird though.
2014-07-30T05:28:41Z drmeister: If I believe the Movitz number that 90% of functions have three or fewer arguments then I'm just dealing with the 10% of the function calls.  Maybe I should just copy the args into a stack local array.
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2014-07-30T09:02:56Z rick-monster: pkhuong: thanks for the tip on nanomsg
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2014-07-30T10:32:31Z Krystof: erikvarga: hi
2014-07-30T10:33:56Z erikvarga: Hi, Krystof! Are you ready to have a chat, then?
2014-07-30T10:34:27Z Krystof: yes.  Shall we do it here?  It's quiet otherwise :)
2014-07-30T10:34:49Z erikvarga: Sure, that's okay.
2014-07-30T10:35:19Z erikvarga: So, last when we talked, I think I was working on optimizing the code generators for fixnums.
2014-07-30T10:35:25Z Krystof: right
2014-07-30T10:35:58Z erikvarga: I got that done, and I've started optimizing division by rationals
2014-07-30T10:36:23Z erikvarga: I finished with unsigned truncate around last week and now I'm more or less done with signed truncate
2014-07-30T10:36:28Z Krystof: cool
2014-07-30T10:36:54Z erikvarga: So what remains is floored and ceilinged division by rationals
2014-07-30T10:37:31Z Krystof: presumably that can reuse a lot of the infrastructure for floored and ceilinged integer division?
2014-07-30T10:37:45Z erikvarga: Yes, I hope so
2014-07-30T10:37:53Z erikvarga: I'm hoping to finish that this and next week, and then spend the last week doing any fix/documentation that remains
2014-07-30T10:38:39Z erikvarga: I've also got a response from the GCC compilefarm guys, and I have access to their machines now, so I can test the assembly I wrote for other architectures
2014-07-30T10:38:44Z Krystof: excellent
2014-07-30T10:39:06Z erikvarga: That's what I planned to today and possibly tomorrow
2014-07-30T10:39:14Z Krystof: it sounds like you're right on track, but... is there something you wish you had time for but you don't think you do?
2014-07-30T10:40:17Z Krystof: I suppose there are two bits to the documentation, or maybe three: something for the user manual, something for the internals manual, and something that looks a bit like an academic conference paper
2014-07-30T10:40:39Z erikvarga: Well, I'm not sure if I'll be able to finish the floor/ceiling on time (the integer version took a bit more time than I expected, so this might also take longer)
2014-07-30T10:41:36Z erikvarga: Are these behind-the-scenes optimisations usually mentioned in the user manual?
2014-07-30T10:42:03Z Krystof: no, I suppose there's no real need given that it's completely automatic
2014-07-30T10:43:15Z erikvarga: Or perhaps the if the user knows that constant division is inexpensive, they might use it more frequently
2014-07-30T10:44:14Z Krystof: Well, put it this way: if you can find an existing section in the user manual where a paragraph or two would fit naturally, then put it there or nearby
2014-07-30T10:44:24Z Krystof: otherwise, don't worry about it, and write a section for the internals manual
2014-07-30T10:44:51Z erikvarga: All right, I'll see if there's an appropriate place to put it
2014-07-30T10:45:56Z erikvarga: So then a section in the internals, possibly a paragraph in the user manual, and something that looks like an academic paper
2014-07-30T10:47:17Z Krystof: the third is obviously not required as part of GSoC, but it might be worth it for you to try to get your work heard somewhere (e.g. European Lisp Symposium next year)
2014-07-30T10:47:38Z Krystof: since as far as we know these optimizations are original, right?
2014-07-30T10:49:17Z erikvarga: The ceiling/floor ones are, and the rationals (I implemented pkhuong's ideas there, mostly, so credit goes to him)
2014-07-30T10:49:29Z Krystof: it can be a joint paper
2014-07-30T10:50:13Z erikvarga: Yeah, that would probably be best
2014-07-30T10:51:20Z Krystof: I'd suggest concentrating in the GSoC period on the internals manual, and then afterwards we can pull out the relevant bits into a submittable paper
2014-07-30T10:52:41Z erikvarga: All right. And if by any chance I don't manage to finish the floor/ceiling part for rationals, I'll do that after the program too. (But I hope I can finish that)
2014-07-30T10:52:54Z Krystof: OK, sounds like a plan.  Happy?
2014-07-30T10:53:11Z erikvarga: Yes, thanks :)
2014-07-30T10:53:24Z Krystof: grand
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2014-07-30T15:17:20Z vi1: hi
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2014-07-30T15:18:07Z vi1: fyi, the build of sbcl-1.2.2 is broken on win64 using fresh mingw-w64
2014-07-30T15:18:24Z vi1: dirty fix: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143271
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2014-07-30T15:21:59Z vi1: don't know if it's right fix though
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2014-07-30T16:49:49Z krzysz00: Krystof: Now that I've a small problem related to the BIDI class of unallocated codepoints, I think I'm a superset of cl-unicode, and that it's probably time to start thiking about merging in the data.
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2014-07-30T17:49:00Z pkhuong_: http://www.amd.com/en-us/press-releases/Pages/64-bit-developer-kit-2014jul30.aspx <- too bad the kits are so expensive.
2014-07-30T17:58:34Z |3b|: nice amount of ram for an arm system
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2014-07-30T18:37:43Z Krystof: krzysz00: good!
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2014-07-30T19:03:41Z krzysz00: The code is at https://github.com/krzysz00/sbcl/tree/unicode-algorithms . I should probably get some code review before this all goes in.
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2014-07-30T20:36:14Z Krystof: krzysz00: can you post to the mailing list?
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2014-07-31T02:58:19Z brucem: pkhuong_, others: When SBCL handles function types, does it take keyword arguments into account, or does it just deal with required parameters?
2014-07-31T03:02:27Z pkhuong_: brucem: that's covered in the spec
2014-07-31T03:02:38Z pkhuong_: optional, keyword, rest
2014-07-31T03:03:08Z pkhuong_: (and *same* for return values, just to mess with people's heads)
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2014-07-31T03:03:16Z brucem: pkhuong: spec? this is documented?
2014-07-31T03:03:29Z brucem: or the function spec?
2014-07-31T03:03:29Z pkhuong: the syntax for function types? yes
2014-07-31T03:03:46Z pkhuong: and we use everything.
2014-07-31T03:05:15Z brucem: in http://www.sbcl.org/manual/ ? I'm wondering what subtype relationship you use. I have one that is in use in Dylan, wondering how it compares.
2014-07-31T03:06:50Z pkhuong: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_fn.htm. "Thus, an ftype declaration for a function describes calls to the function, not the actual definition of the function."
2014-07-31T03:08:04Z brucem: ah, okay. thanks!
2014-07-31T03:08:25Z brucem: pkhuong: I started an implementation on my end yesterday. Have some of it working at run-time instead of compile-time alerady.
2014-07-31T03:08:29Z brucem: already.
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2014-07-31T03:09:15Z pkhuong: some of the implementation may be broken.
2014-07-31T03:10:14Z pkhuong: no, never mind. It works for the purpose of describe how the function is used.
2014-07-31T03:10:35Z pkhuong: The surprising parts is stuff like (subtypep '(function (fixnum)) '(function (t))) => T, T
2014-07-31T03:11:06Z pkhuong: as well as (subtypep '(function (*) (values fixnum &optional)) '(function (*) (values t &optional)))
2014-07-31T03:11:34Z pkhuong: but when you think in terms of describing usage and stacking declarations, the subtyping makes sense
2014-07-31T03:13:43Z pkhuong: http://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/29345204/ has all the right keywords
2014-07-31T03:16:03Z brucem: ah, fun ... the same argument that I had with myself :)
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2014-07-31T03:26:49Z pkhuong: brucem: and unless you want to add a mode to your subtyping test, I think CL's is the least harmful way to go.
2014-07-31T03:28:18Z brucem: pkhuong: I have to be afk for about 35 minutes ... but 1) mode? and 2) any pointer to the code for this case in subtypep?
2014-07-31T03:29:05Z brucem: pkhuong: we have most of an implementation in our type inferencing (unused since we don't support this functionality yet): https://github.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/blob/master/sources/dfmc/typist/typist-algebra.dylan#L1621
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2014-07-31T03:43:28Z pkhuong: mode as in covariant/contravariant(/invariant)
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2014-07-31T04:06:49Z brucem: pkhuong: thanks!
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