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09:53:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:02:59 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #sbcl 10:05:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.203] has joined #sbcl 10:05:14 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.13.203] has quit [Changing host] 10:05:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #sbcl 10:26:11 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:29:06 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #sbcl 10:49:02 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:50:09 Jieth [~other@188.162.64.80] has joined #sbcl 10:51:16 Hello, it seems that sbcl's make-random-state is not conform http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm . 10:51:34 It returns same vaule every invocation. 10:51:45 Even on different instances of sbcl on same machine. 10:51:50 Only reboot helps. 10:52:17 "the default is nil" 10:53:30 (in other words, please justify why you think sbcl's make-random-state is not conforming) 10:54:13 Krystof: I mean in example it's clearly seen that every call to meke-random-state returns different value. 10:55:08 no, it isn't 10:55:20 Krystof: "the default is nil" it's about argument. 10:55:26 Not about return value. 10:55:31 oh for goodness' sake 10:55:59 the whole point of the example is that the return value of (make-random-state) is equal to the current random state object 10:56:26 (make-random-state (make-random-state (make-random-state))) = (make-random-state) 10:56:34 of course it is 10:56:46 "If state is a random state object, the new-state is a copy[5] of that object." 10:57:01 Ah, i see. 10:57:30 Is there a way to create different random state each time? 10:57:45 Can you read each word in the "Description" entry in the page you linked? 10:57:48 every single word 10:57:52 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #sbcl 10:57:56 there are only about 40 of them 10:58:27 Ahhhh, 10:58:34 I need "t". 10:58:39 thank you. 10:58:44 Reading is rewarding. 10:59:35 -!- Jieth [~other@188.162.64.80] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:02:18 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #sbcl 11:02:24 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:12:57 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:12:58 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15:33 ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #sbcl 11:16:32 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #sbcl 11:34:53 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-129-129.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #sbcl 12:00:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:00:16 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 12:05:15 -!- drmeister 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57:14 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #sbcl 16:18:26 haxx [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #sbcl 17:05:24 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-251.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 17:06:51 pkhuong: hi. got your email. i was never actually able to suppress the sbcl.exe console window properly----when changing the header bit to suppress it, i'd get an executable that did nothing at all. 17:07:01 i.e. didn't open console window or game window 17:07:37 dto: ah. That's with the script nyef (?) lisppasted? 17:08:12 yes, a while back. 17:09:08 i don't recall what version sbcl i tested with. 17:10:10 anyway i couldn't get it to suppress the window, so i just live with having that little window behind. 17:10:47 Happy Thanksgiving pkhuong , i hope you are doing well :) 17:10:59 thank you. To you as well (: 17:13:45 let me know if there is anything i can do to help test the sbcl exe header bit issue, 17:15:11 i sort of gave up last time trying to suppress the little window, but it might be worth taking another shot 17:16:09 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has joined #sbcl 17:19:28 things to be Thankful for 17:19:29 SBCL! 17:22:08 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.221.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:33:12 pkhuong: it could be that nyefs script was wrong. i wonder what the mailing list guy is using? he said he could produce a lisp snippet... 17:53:58 mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #sbcl 18:04:35 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23:03 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:32 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@117.36.89.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:37:57 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-251.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54:18 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 18:58:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:11:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 19:48:38 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #sbcl 20:20:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:25 Hello, I have a small piece of code that demonstrates a compiler note that I don't understand. The link is: http://paste.lisp.org/+308Q Would anyone like to help? 20:31:48 Basically, is there any way to get rid of that note? I simply assume that I don't know something I should. Thank you! 20:32:06 psilord: double floats have to be boxed, you're returning a newly computed double float 20:32:51 Ah, the fact they _have to be_ boxed is the thing I didn't know. 20:33:01 remove (speed 3), no more notes 20:33:38 if you want the result not to be boxed, you can inline the function 20:33:50 Ah! 20:34:00 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #sbcl 20:34:02 Ok, that makes sense to me. 20:34:28 (because you don't need to box it if you're just going to use it immediately in the instruction stream). 20:34:42 Thank you very much! 20:35:11 more of a, you don't need to box it because it knows what type it is 20:35:20 I'm porting a well loved vector/matrix library I wrote long ago and use often to Common Lisp and am trying to get it to compile to fast code. 20:35:22 Oh I see. 20:36:08 boxing is necessary to attach type information 20:36:08 I already learned how the :type option on defstruct can remove it from being a class, which was surprising to me a little, but didn't have that big of an effect on my codes. 20:36:49 Yeah, I basically understand boxing, I just didn't realize double-floats were boxed in the manner that they are. 20:37:00 single floats on 64-bit machines can be tagged "inline", so to speak 20:37:18 but there's no room for tags for 64-bit double floats 20:37:51 more clever calling conventions could eliminate the need for boxing 20:38:11 Hrm, I still get the compiler note even with the inline. 20:38:33 yes, it will always be there 20:38:51 What is the difference between speed 2 and 3? 20:39:14 Concerning this little aspect we're talking about. :) 20:39:34 speed 2 will produce notes too, if you're wondering 20:40:03 if the function is inlined, it will take the optimization settings of the caller 20:40:32 Oh, that's interesting. Is that an SBCL specific concept? 20:40:38 so, you can remove the optimize declaration from the definition, and put it where it's called, even though adding speed 3 won't magically make your program any faster 20:41:38 Well, in my case, it isn't magic, I'm disassembling it with it and without it so I know it is having an effect, and only using it on a function by function basis deep in the core math code I have. 20:42:40 it has an effect, but it's rarely noticeable 20:42:57 In my tests I've seen decent improvement. 20:43:16 Like something going from 16 seconds down to 8 seconds. 20:43:31 that may have been also due to (safety 0), which is a sure way to get wrong results, but fast 20:43:35 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-250-1.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #sbcl 20:43:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-59-232.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:43:56 Yeah, I know to be really careful with safety 0..... 20:44:25 But you are right, I haven't permuted the safety and speed setting to figure out which one has the best bang for the buck. 20:44:28 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:48:44 i'm just saying, if you mind those notes, you can remove the speed declaration 20:48:50 you can also silence it 20:49:15 with (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)) 20:50:49 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-250-1.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:27 Oh I didn't know about that. Thank you! 21:01:41 I've got a question. 21:02:16 Keep it, it's your only hope. Never lose sight of it. 21:02:22 I've got a macro that uses the environment and (slot-value env 'sb-c::vars) to expand into a list of lexical variables. 21:02:49 that works fine for LET and LOOP; but for a ITERATE it doesn't 21:03:17 there's only a small difference regarding order of BLOCK and so on. 21:03:21 paste follows: 21:03:26 iterate uses its own codewalker. 21:04:06 you're doing bad things, hence you get bad results 21:05:37 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140284 21:06:45 what are you trying to do that requires accessing lexical variables in such a way? 21:06:49 the (PRINT (LIST A '() ...)) lines 21:06:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.207.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:07:04 stassats: in the long run, I want to do something similar to Lighttable. 21:07:18 you can't get a list of all enclosin variables with a codewalker or even just macroexpand-1 without a time travel machine (and then hope for a fixed point) 21:07:28 Having two buffers open in my editor, and have one of them filled with the variable information of the source in the other. 21:07:37 flip214: that doesn't sound like the right angle 21:07:59 pkhuong: I'm using the environment passed to macros, and then implementation-specific functions. 21:08:33 you'll be better off with your own code-walker, for starters 21:08:42 for LOOP it works - ITERATE has only a slightly different order of BLOCK NIL and LET, and that seems to shadow the lexical variable information 21:09:22 stassats: I've got a small one that inserts the macro/functions to check the lexical variables and pass them back to the editor 21:09:52 but that's fairly incomplete, and not relevant to the discussion why SBCL won't show all lexical variables in the environment 21:10:02 how would you know where to insert it? 21:10:13 you need a code-walker just to be able to do that 21:10:27 ... iterate expands macro before emiting the full expansion 21:10:29 stassats: yes, that's what I'm doing. 21:10:48 pkhuong: ah, that's a good tip! 21:12:00 if you have a code-walker which knows where to insert all the necessary macros, you can dispense with the macros and get the information from the code-walker directly 21:14:48 stassats: that's what I'm trying to avoid ... a code-walker is non-trivial. 21:15:31 I played around a bit with using a named-readtable and using a macro for #\Newline ... but that has other problems. 21:16:01 non-trivial compared to what? what you're describing simply wouldn't work 21:16:10 and needs a code-walker 21:17:44 hmmm, ITERATE has *special-form-alist* 21:18:14 any code walker would 21:21:17 if you depend on implementation dependent things 21:21:30 (map 'list #'sb-di:debug-var-symbol (sb-di::debug-fun-debug-vars (sb-di::fun-debug-fun #'x))) would already do a better job than what you have 21:21:37 (requires high debug) 21:23:35 Bike [~Glossina@71-214-87-94.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #sbcl 21:24:32 (sb-di:do-debug-fun-vars (var (sb-di:fun-debug-fun #'x)) (print (sb-di:debug-var-symbol var))) for exported interfaces 21:24:43 pkhuong: thanks a lot, got it working with ITERATE too. 21:25:14 stassats: thanks a lot, will take a look at that. 21:25:41 generally, I'm building a library that should allow these things for multiple implementations. 21:26:06 eg. write a macro, ask the library for the lexicals in the environment, then do something with them or not. 21:26:47 well, i hope you realize soon enough that it's not going to work and settle for code-walkers, which already do exist 21:26:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140285 21:27:31 But codewalkers just hige issues under the rug until you hit a wall (mostly because there's no way to coordinate their layering) 21:27:55 stassats: in any way I'll learn some new things, and that might be enough. 21:30:05 Anyway, I got it (sort of) working already. 21:32:31 pkhuong: should be good enough for introspection 21:33:31 does swank have some predeclared way to send arbitrary data (non-repl-output) to the editor? 21:34:06 ah, perhaps SWANK-RPC:WRITE-MESSAGE 21:36:17 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-214-87-94.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:38:04 Bike [~Glossina@75-164-163-129.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #sbcl 21:46:37 hmmm, the most important thing would be to get the source line during macro expansion ... 21:52:11 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:05:16 ASau` [~user@p54AFEEE1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #sbcl 22:07:20 -!- mood [~mood@D9799655.cm-3-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:04 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 22:09:14 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:13:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:01 -!- Bike [~Glossina@75-164-163-129.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:18:13 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 22:18:57 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-217.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #sbcl 22:21:13 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:57:31 scymtym_ [~user@ip-5-147-115-29.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #sbcl 23:25:12 -!- haxx [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:58:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl