00:08:43 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 00:23:10 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:24:48 -!- Strigoides [~Strigoide@60-234-213-126.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:36:59 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #sbcl 00:49:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:53:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:39 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 01:28:11 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-135-144.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:33 -!- ebobby_ [~fms@199.21.86.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:16:57 -!- akovalen` [~user@95.72.41.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:23:00 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:26:08 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 04:39:50 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:13 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:41:45 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #sbcl 05:28:18 sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #sbcl 05:37:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@137.135-66-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:12:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:17:28 -!- psilord [~psilord@c-69-180-173-249.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:34:53 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e14c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:35:22 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e14c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #sbcl 06:44:35 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #sbcl 06:52:23 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #sbcl 07:15:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 07:19:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:22:38 -!- ASau [~user@46.115.41.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:23:08 leoc [~leoc.git@p5792D682.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #sbcl 07:25:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:35:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.193] has joined #sbcl 07:35:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@87.247.56.193] has quit [Changing host] 07:35:42 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #sbcl 07:36:34 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: me] 07:39:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #sbcl 07:42:03 jdz [~jdz@85.254.212.34] has joined #sbcl 07:48:48 stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 08:00:40 prxq_ [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c563.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #sbcl 08:03:47 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75e14c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:07:28 how about disabling the &rest trick for elt? 08:08:05 what do you mean? 08:13:21 stop transforming elt of &rest into %rest-ref. 08:13:34 why? 08:14:46 bah never mind, we already perform a similar transform on regular elt calls. 08:15:14 see the discussion in https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1154946 after the bug is closed 08:15:27 basically, because I'd rather not have errors be signaled or not depending on how an otherwise unrelated piece of code treats the &rest argument. 08:15:57 stassats`: I don't see your point. I understand what the expectations are on ELT. 08:16:10 Conformance is only necessary for usefulness, not sufficient. 08:16:28 i wasn't making any points 08:17:00 I don't see your non sequitur then. 08:17:12 which non sequitur? 08:19:16 and where? here? in the ticket? i'm failing to understand what you mean 08:19:42 I don't know, you're the one who referred to the discussion without any point. 08:20:20 it's about ELT and &rest, not sure what point should it have, though 08:21:54 and describing what i did in the commit, which disables elt to %rest-ref transformation with safety = 3 08:22:38 and I suggest we disable it, unconditionally. 08:22:51 tcr [~tcr@77-56-40-229.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #sbcl 08:23:19 for (elt (the list) ...) then, too? 08:23:49 But, like I wrote later, we're already doing similar stuff for non &rest elt, so there's little point. 08:28:13 So I was wondering why (sb-ext:octets-to-string :external-format ':latin1) does not return a (SIMPLE-ARRAY BASE-CHAR). It returns a (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER) now. Is there anything I'm missing other than no-one has implemented such an optimization? 08:28:34 you're not missing anything 08:28:53 i thought about adding a parameter, :result-element-type, or something 08:29:09 tcr: it's not a pure optimisation with mutable strings. 08:29:24 yeah right 08:29:41 thank you stassats` :-) 08:29:42 loke, memo from stassats`: it's size-t, not om-uint32 in (ctype size-t "size_t") (cstruct gss-buffer-desc "gss_buffer_desc" (length "length" :type size-t) (value "value" :type :pointer)), don't forget to delete fasls! 08:29:48 simple-base-string are also not readable 08:30:17 loke: you're welcome 08:30:57 So now I've confirmed cl-gss working on sbcl, clisp, ecl and ccl. That's progress :-) 08:31:33 i guess when i get the time to push changes to the octets-to-string, which make it faster, also adding :result-element-type, that'll allow even faster copying of ascii strings 08:31:47 loke: let's go to #lisp, i have a couple of other notes also 08:33:08 tcr: also, latin1 doesn't necessarily fit in base-char (: 08:33:18 in sbcl? 08:33:49 yup. 7 bit base chars on sb-unicode builds for utf-8 goodness. 08:34:08 ok so much to my assumption 08:34:32 Could an implementation add an immutable string type as a proper subtype of STRING? 08:35:07 Right now, passing a constant string to mutating functions is out-of-spec, too. 08:35:57 implementations could add any amount of subtypes 08:36:40 well being a proper subtype of STRING might impose constraints by the standard which would render a new type useless in practise 08:36:44 tcr: subtyping and mutable arrays are Hard. I don't think it can work as a *type* 08:37:01 but we can have immutable data. 08:37:54 can you give an example of complicatedness? I.e. point out the can of worms, not necessarily opening it :-) 08:38:23 tcr: the can of works is easily shown by how it behaves in Java, which does the wrong thing 08:39:00 it brings the question of whether arrays are covariant or contravariant. I think CL made the right choice in making them (mostly) invariant. 08:39:25 I.e. in Java, a String[] is-a Object[]. But an Object[] should be able to hold anything. So, String[] foo = ...; Object[] x = foo; x[0] = new Integer(0); <-- fail 08:40:23 So, for instance is immutable-foo a subtype of foo, or the opposite. Plus, STRING "denotes the union of all types (array c (size)) for all subtypes c of character" 08:42:55 I'm pretty sure the only sane choice is to make immutable-foo the supertype, but that really messes up the class hierarchy. 08:45:44 does it have to be the type system which indicates immutability? 08:46:25 indeed, it doesn't. we can have immutable data. 08:47:48 it would still be good to have immutability inference at compile-time, the current one only works with constant variables 09:19:13 why not make mutable and immutable strings disjoint, both effectively subtypes of (simple-array character (*)) 09:19:22 add another array attribute 09:19:30 similar to complexp 09:26:05 Krystof: well, because mutable strings aren't subtypes of (simple-array character 1), and because I expect to be able to write to a simple-array, but can't write to immutable strings (liskov yada yada) 09:28:26 yeah, there were several things wrong with what I wrote 09:28:32 I'll try again when less encumbered 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[Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:40 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-186.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 18:26:54 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:50 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #sbcl 18:45:10 do we really need sb-impl::x->string-sap-ref-8? 18:45:43 it makes things slightly more complicated 18:46:14 can't find anybody using it 18:46:37 removing it will make things quite simpler, and probably reduce core size 18:46:50 s/probably/surely/, amount uncertain 18:46:56 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:48:09 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.144.22] has joined #sbcl 18:48:25 Krystof: you added it, what's your take? 18:53:31 can't grep for string-sap-ref-8 18:58:20 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-51-73.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #sbcl 18:58:40 the only place i can imagine it can be used is sb-alien 18:59:42 but looks like read-c-string-functions are generated separately 18:59:57 based on out-form, in-form 19:00:22 so, sb-impl::x->string-sap-ref-8 should either be plugged into read-c-string-functions, or removed altogether 19:02:13 now that they have a chance to get optimized, i'm leaning to the former 19:03:04 try both approaches and see which fails earlier ? 19:03:23 wbooze: what? 19:07:18 but then cffi's external formats would feel real slow and i would want to use sb-alien instead 19:07:58 or maybe improve cffi too, oh well, the work is cut out 19:08:31 please do 19:12:36 we need a brave lisper to enter babel and fix stuff 19:13:00 i was more thinking about plugging cffi into sbcl's octet stuff, instead of babel 19:13:19 that won't go in 19:13:32 er, what? that better be a contrib. 19:14:48 apparently, people don't want things to go fast, alright then, sb-alien it is 19:15:54 it's not that I don't 19:16:14 but I want consistent error handling across all lisps 19:16:34 Oh, you want to go that way. I don't care (: 19:17:56 if babel is allowed to use something like sap-ref, then it can be made to be as fast 19:18:28 what if babel is made so good, it can be used for sbcl's external-format implementation? 19:19:09 stassats`: that would be nice in a way 19:19:24 or maybe some common denominator 19:20:19 i think external format is where things can be improved the most in CL 19:21:19 yeah, if the twenty external format impls that get loaded today for various dependencies, could be coalesced into just one... 19:23:54 that'd one library that would be eprfect for a wiki-style effort. 19:24:26 I don't think we have a reasonable hope of having babel adopted beyond sbcl and maybe ccl 19:24:37 certainly not abcl, clisp or ecl 19:24:43 nor allegro or lispworks 19:24:44 really? :\ 19:24:55 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:24:57 fe[nl]ix: i can see abcl or ecl doing it too 19:25:00 what's the reason for ECL? (I assuem ABCL exploits the hosts') 19:25:04 clisp uses iconv 19:25:07 others, not so much 19:25:15 actually ecl maybe 19:25:23 IIRC it uses sbcl's code 19:25:38 I don't mind if running code on abcl, clisp, ecl, allegro, or lispworks causes there to be two impls loaded, the native one, and the one everyone uses. 19:26:04 That's already such a huge improvement... 19:27:38 the problem with babel is that luis wrote it in quite a convoluted way 19:27:54 with 3 levels of backquoting 19:28:00 I get headaches trying to read that code 19:33:19 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:00 psilord1 [~psilord@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #sbcl 20:01:44 -!- psilord [~psilord@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:13:53 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:14:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:14:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.219.80] has joined #sbcl 20:14:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.219.80] has quit [Changing host] 20:14:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #sbcl 20:19:56 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:58 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.144.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:04:05 -!- prxq [~mommer@mnhm-5f75c563.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:20:37 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBBC90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:30:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #sbcl 21:33:30 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-183-240-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #sbcl 21:43:59 -!- Hydan [~hydan@ip-89-103-110-116.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:08 -!- psilord1 [~psilord@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:08 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@94.27.88.135] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:26 akovalenko [~user@77.51.77.195] has joined #sbcl 22:15:26 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-161-186.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:27 psilord [~psilord@c-69-180-173-249.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #sbcl 22:50:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-70.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 22:52:01 dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 22:53:54 -!- |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:54:01 hi. i thought i would ping you about the issue i'm having with my sbcl-based game EXE's crashing on certain versions of 64-bit Windows, in particular 64-bit Win7 without service packs. 22:54:18 what i said previously and those notes/links, are right here. http://paste.lisp.org/display/136463 22:54:41 i'm happy to help out in debugging this if i can. 22:55:14 my email is dto@blocky.io , you can also contact me that way. thanks everyone. 23:15:39 |3b| [foobar@cpe-72-177-66-41.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #sbcl 23:19:02 erikc [~erikc@CPE00222d53fe78-CM00222d53fe75.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #sbcl 23:22:20 -!- dto [~user@pool-96-252-62-13.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:10 LiamH [~none@pool-74-96-4-63.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 23:45:46 fisxoj [~fisxoj@c-24-12-190-29.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #sbcl