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10:41:40 very much 10:41:45 no hate at all, I'd just disable it locally 10:41:49 hah 10:42:08 what if it was just for sb-unix? 10:43:32 don't use it, don't care 10:46:43 do you mean package-internal symbols our sbcl-private symbols? 10:47:22 sbcl-private ones 10:47:42 not entirely seriously contemplating this, but not quite joking either 10:59:06 prxq [~mommer@mnhm-590c3359.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #sbcl 11:07:56 -!- Kryztof [c1c66933@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.198.105.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:39:00 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:41:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-240-221.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #sbcl 11:41:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178-164-240-221.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Changing host] 11:41:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #sbcl 12:07:08 -!- tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:17:34 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #sbcl 12:17:41 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has left #sbcl 12:22:12 homie`` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-159-74.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 12:23:09 leuler [~user@p549058BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #sbcl 12:25:09 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-168-240.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:32:35 LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-153.umd.edu] has joined #sbcl 12:44:00 Kryztof [c1c66933@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.198.105.51] has joined #sbcl 13:10:55 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #sbcl 13:10:59 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has left #sbcl 13:22:44 gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #sbcl 13:24:41 -!- LiamH [~healy@wireless-206-196-162-153.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:01:13 leuler: imho, the new RANDOM tests should be random.impure.lisp, since you're modifying *RANDOM-STATE* 14:07:15 -!- ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:31 -!- Kryztof [c1c66933@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.198.105.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:08:06 froydnj: that's not current practice: lots of pure test files contain calls to RANDOM without using their own copy of a random state. 14:08:59 leuler: hm 14:09:14 Kryztof [c1c66933@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.198.105.51] has joined #sbcl 14:09:23 ASau` [~user@95-25-227-191.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #sbcl 14:11:58 can we just make the test-runner hand each pure file a new copy random-state? 14:12:13 gc.impure.lisp passes for me on x86 14:15:36 current practice means: the random numbers a pure file using RANDOM gets will change if: in an earlier pure file more or fewer random numbers are used, the RANDOM implementation changes, or another pure file that calls RANDOM is added before it. I think that is acceptable. 14:19:53 probably 14:20:09 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #sbcl 14:20:27 the important desirable property is that the random numbers don't change from one invocation to the other (as if make-random-state was called with argument t), to not have random test suite failures -- or so I was told when some years ago I wanted to write a test that deliberately used "make-random-state t" in the intend to get a wider test coverage -- but in the meantime several tests have been added that do just that (on a copy of the 14:20:27 random state). 14:20:27 14:20:50 invocation: read "invocation of the test suite" 14:22:14 differences also obviously occur if running single tests instead of the whole suite. That's an argument for using "impure". 14:24:57 do you have any comments on my patch for generating floating point random numbers? 14:25:01 here's a though: make WITH-TEST grab a copy of *RANDOM-STATE* before running the test, and if the test fails and *RANDOM-STATE* has changed, save the original random-state somewhere so the failure can be reproduced 14:25:45 or simply have with-test generate a fresh random-state every time? 14:25:55 deterministic random-state, that is 14:26:16 maybe s/or/and/ 14:26:35 or generate one from a random integer seed, for easy reporting along with the failure? 14:27:09 sure 14:27:45 given that we have random tests, it is probably better that they explore more of the space, provided that they can be reproduced after a failure 14:28:04 re. random floats. i haven't looked at it yet. i would need to have a look at literature first, since it's a bit outside my comfort zone 14:29:29 (my inclination is to defer to Kryztof, leuler, and pkhuong in the matter, so i'm hoping they'll weigh in...) 14:30:48 if you have any questions and suggestions, please let me know. 14:32:16 A brief look at it and it made sense to me 14:32:47 but that was only a brief look -- and see what my careful look at leuler's random patch gets me, an argument about the location of the random-using tests :) 14:32:49 if i understand correctly, currently (random ) never returns denorms? 14:32:59 unfortunately, in my obsession over the darn thing I ignored arch. conditioning. 14:33:13 nikodemus: never returns anthing between epsilon and zero. 14:33:59 ouch 14:34:11 one part in 10^8 for single floats? That's a bit sucky 14:34:15 that's pretty common. 14:37:41 edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #sbcl 14:38:55 I did take a short look at the patch and I'm feeling uneasy about it. I think it's quite an invasive change to the behaviour of random floats. I would need to spend more time with it to be able to ask more specific questions, which I don't have at the moment, unfortunately. 14:38:58 -!- foom [jknight@nat/google/x-ucaxgwcycenbpbfi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:47 ok. I agree that it is pretty invasive. It would put the random floats at the quality level of e.g. matlab. 14:44:41 No disadvantages besides being somewhat slower? What's with folks expecting to see zero once in a while? Doesn't your patch reduce the probability for that from (expt 2 -24) to (expt 2 (- much-larger-number)) for single-floats? 14:45:27 yes, one zero every couple of sun-runs-cold eras :-) 14:46:04 -!- edgar-rft [~user@HSI-KBW-078-043-123-191.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:46:26 the probability of a zero is (expt 2 -150) 14:46:57 Not that high 14:46:58 (for single floats) 14:52:51 do people really expect zeroes from (random 1.0)? 14:53:13 the point of view is that you choose a number in [0,1) at random (by starting out with an infinite stream of bits), and then find the closest fp number to it. Zeros are then rare because of the very high resolution near zero. 14:54:23 while on topic, is there a good way to generate floats in [0,1] range? 14:56:47 you mean, where the 1 actually happens at some point? I think so, by generating an additional bit and using rounding on the scheme I posted. 14:58:04 If the 0 and the 1 are allowed to be half as probable as interior points, generate a float in [0,1) and decide randomly to take it or to take (- 1 it). 14:58:06 floats in (-1,1) are also best generated by choosing the sign at random. 14:58:35 but (- 1 it) looses lower bits. 15:00:02 yes. This was meant for an implementation like the current one. 15:01:12 foom [jknight@nat/google/x-owhiwxporisgsiro] has joined #sbcl 15:05:13 in theory should the answer not be to generate a rational between 0 and 1+float-epsilon/2, then floatify it? :-) 15:06:30 (random smallest-float-above-1.0)? 15:08:03 to generate floats in (-1,1) with the current implementation by choosing the sign at random means that 0 is twice as probable as the other numbers, so one would need to throw away every second zero (randomly). With prxq's implementation this would not be necessary, I think, so we have an observable difference between the two ways here? 15:08:12 any comments on *before/after-exit-hooks*? 15:09:38 nikodemus: I don't see what the use case is. 15:10:20 When just calling (RANDOM 1.0) repeatedly the implementations differ in the average of the random numbers generated (may be by an unmeasurable amount). On the other hand, the spec doesn't say anything about averages. 15:10:58 I think I would prefer high-quality random numbers 15:11:04 foom: one hook to gracefully kill application threads -- which needs to run before threads are unwound, obviously. another hook to release/flush global stuff after all threads are gone 15:11:11 But as I said: I would need to put more time into this before I feel comfortable even discussing it. 15:15:02 foom: the situation is complicated by *exit-hooks* historically having been called before the session is terminated, so it was the right place to kill application threads if you wanted to do that nicely 15:15:39 nikodemus: But why is "unwinding threads" even a thing that happens? 15:15:46 nikodemus: why not just exit after calling exit-hooks 15:16:03 if you want to shut your application threads, you can do that in the exit hooks 15:16:10 otherwise, just exit already. 15:16:46 foom: that was what i did in the version 1 of the patch, and only people who commented on it were of the opinion that other threads should be unwound as well, not just the thread calling EXiT 15:17:10 I think I think that no threads should be unwound. 15:17:18 But I'm not 100% sure. :) 15:17:27 foom: can you comment on the list? 15:17:40 yea. 15:17:43 thanks 15:20:01 there's a lot of "comparison between signed and unsigned integer expressions" notes from C, does it incur any performances penalties? 15:20:16 no, but it's probably a bug 15:21:31 since it converts the signed int to an unsigned int before performing the comparison. 15:23:28 in https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/runtime/gc-common.c#L1708 kv_vector is set, but it's never used, and a comment at #L1708 says /* Cross-check the kv_vector. */ 15:27:09 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@188-67-13-181.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28:33 Regarding pure/impure tests and random-state: I like the idea to have with-test generate a new, randomly chosen, random-state each time and, if the test fails, output the seed it used, to make it possible to reproduce the failure. 15:31:02 foom: it appears to be correct in all places, should explicit casting be used or just disregard those warnings? 15:32:02 stassats`: What makes you say it's correct? I'd change the type of one or other of the sides to match the other. 15:32:17 what if it cannot be done? 15:32:26 then cast. 15:34:36 saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #sbcl 15:48:28 nyef [~nyef@c-174-63-105-188.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #sbcl 15:55:28 christoph_debian [~user@oteiza.siccegge.de] has joined #sbcl 15:57:27 -!- gko [~gko@114-34-168-13.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [] 16:21:20 -!- Kryztof [c1c66933@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.198.105.51] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 16:33:11 huh, sb-bsd-sockets didn't build properly 16:35:13 on /dev/log test 16:35:50 not the best test, frankly 16:40:23 ok, that was because OOM killed syslog when i was testing SBCL's gc 16:49:41 tcr [~tcr@84-72-21-32.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #sbcl 17:10:45 -!- saschakb [~saschakb@p4FEA0A70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:29:59 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #sbcl 17:39:43 -!- leuler 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