00:13:08 homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-231.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 00:13:58 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-109-36.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:21 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-231.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:24:05 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-87-46-139.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:24:29 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-204-231.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 01:50:20 -!- jeti [~user@p54B47544.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:57:20 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-68.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59:17 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-68.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #sbcl 02:03:59 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-68.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:05:19 hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-68.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined #sbcl 02:13:53 -!- hefner [~hefner@ppp-58-9-119-68.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:59:51 mega1 [~quassel@adsl-63-195-37-158.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #sbcl 03:20:11 tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-46-139.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #sbcl 03:20:37 -!- tsuru is now known as Guest38586 03:31:01 -!- redline6561 [~redline@c-66-56-55-169.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:43:39 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 03:54:01 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 04:03:04 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:05 -!- gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:03 gnooth [~gnooth@ip98-176-79-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #sbcl 13:20:28 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #sbcl 13:20:28 -!- names: ccl-logbot tsuru homie` @Krystof stassats attila_lendvai tcr @nikodemus flip214 lnostdal foom chandler gnooth slyrus cmm angavrilov deepfire pr kae_ fe[nl]ix ruediger luis specbot Xof_ lisppaste2 rhct `3b` vs_ derrida jsnell joshe pkhuong_ tokenrove 13:23:53 -file is the truename, -pathname is what cl:open passed to sb-unix:unix-open after merging with *d-p-d* 13:24:42 maybe there's no specific reason for this 13:24:56 somebody probably thought it was a good idea to keep both 13:38:11 my guess, without looking at the code: distinction between namestring and native-namestring 13:42:19 -!- Krystof [~csr21@82-70-15-30.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:42:43 plausible 13:46:41 -!- homie` [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:47:57 nikodemus: +1 for not keeping deprecated stuff forever. 13:57:24 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 14:10:57 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #sbcl 14:25:25 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@catv-89-132-188-47.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:48 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-179-143.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #sbcl 14:47:58 G'morning all. 14:48:03 hi nyef 14:48:53 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:55:54 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #sbcl 15:05:42 flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has joined #sbcl 15:08:30 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #sbcl 15:24:16 nyef: i'm not sure i understood re. cross-compiler and literate programs 15:31:18 For the cross-compiler, an awful lot of stuff is defined with a rather odd source-location, such as that of sb!xc:def!macro or such. 15:31:44 For literate programs, the source file is often a mix of TeX markup and lisp forms. 15:31:45 gotcha. do you have any examples handy? 15:31:56 (for the xc stuff) 15:32:50 Hrm. 'sec. 15:35:33 Odd, can't find any real examples now. :-/ 15:36:17 maybe they've been fixed :) 15:37:29 Maybe they were all struct accessors. 15:38:22 Krystof [~csr21@82-70-15-30.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #sbcl 15:38:22 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 15:45:47 nikodemus pasted "i'm sure prettier backtraces natually lead to making this pretty too, but i'm no longer sure how" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/116712 15:46:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #sbcl 15:47:00 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 15:47:27 nikodemus: You mean the "lambda nil" bit? 15:48:00 the message and the lack of (in compiler-macroexpansion...) 15:48:10 contrast to your repl :) 15:48:25 -!- flip214 [~marek@unaffiliated/flip214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:48:42 but point taken : 15:49:25 Actually, the LAMBDA NIL bit should be easy to replace with TOPLEVEL-FORM or similar... Maybe? 15:49:49 let me see 15:50:14 Try substituting a NAMED-LAMBDA TOPLEVEL-FORM for the bare LAMBDA used for TLFs now. 15:51:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #sbcl 15:56:26 the LAMBDA NIL actually comes from %SIMPLE-EVAL 15:57:25 So... named-lambda? 15:57:32 (compile nil `(lambda (f) (sb-introspect:function-arglist f)) at least gives LAMBDA (F), which is reasoanable 15:58:25 but (compile nil `(lambda () (sb-introspect:function-arglist *)) gives LAMBDA NIL, whereas LAMBDA () would be nicer 15:59:44 Hrm. 16:00:01 "in: SB-INT:NAMED-LAMBDA SB-IMPL::TOPLEVEL-FORM". Not an improvement. 16:01:54 there's a format directive to prefer () to NIL 16:01:57 ~:A? 16:02:19 using that in pprint-lambda-list might be the way forward 16:03:18 In this case, it's more about the fact that toplevel forms are represented as LAMBDA NIL instead of something more obvious like... #:TOPLEVEL-FORM, maybe? 16:04:18 waat? 16:04:23 (pprint-logical-block (*standard-output* nil :per-line-prefix "; ") 16:04:23 (format *standard-output* "in:~{~<~% ~4:;~{ ~S~}~>~^ =>~}" (list '(lambda ())))) 16:04:34 replace the ~S with ~W and it breaks 16:04:43 that should not happen, should it? 16:05:43 ~:S does the right thing for this, case, though -- so i'm not motivated to dive into format right now... 16:06:42 no, that is a valid reason to break 16:07:03 the clhs reference is right too 16:07:26 live and learn :) 16:07:54 can't mix justification (~< ~> and pprint (~W/~_) directives) 16:08:05 you can do logical blocks, though, with ~< ~@:> 16:19:18 mega1 [~quassel@2001:470:1f05:548:215:58ff:fe7d:773b] has joined #sbcl 16:20:06 nikodemus annotated #116712 "no wonder people complain about compiler messages..." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/116712#1 16:28:41 kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #sbcl 16:36:52 nikodemus annotated #116712 "better, but no cookie" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/116712#2 16:37:56 I don't see the problem 16:38:35 #? 16:38:48 I don't see why the second one says "no cookie" 16:39:21 SB-C::%FUNCALL is guts hanging in the gutter 16:40:05 except that at some point those guts will end up being necessary to know about 16:40:38 i doubt having SB-C::%FUNCALL in the source-path has ever been of use to anyone 16:40:45 I really don't like the tendency to hide information from the poor user 16:41:25 the source path is intended to allow people to understand how the final source came about -- and SB-C::%FUNCALL there is more obfuscatory than helpful 16:41:48 i don't want to hide information. i want to present it better 16:43:00 but source path cleaning is getting pretty far afield from what i was meaning to work on, so i'll leave this alone now 16:43:51 i'll present my proposal for prettier backtraces when it's ready 16:44:41 hopefully finding a common ground between readable and complete -- and the right default settings in particular 16:45:36 jeti [~user@p54B4726A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #sbcl 17:08:29 Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #sbcl 17:09:00 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-87-25-189.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #sbcl 17:11:14 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-46-139.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:17:59 cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.166] has joined #sbcl 17:18:57 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@113.22.105.166] has left #sbcl 17:46:49 nikodemus: smaller backtraces (and fewer warnings when building SBCL) would be nice 17:47:03 I tend to ignore things that probably shouldn't be ignored when they get lost in the noise 17:48:22 i think i have a plan for a default setting for backtraces which has all the information even Krystof could want, but is still easy to read :) 17:48:33 devil is in the details, but we'll see... 17:49:57 looking forward to seeing it! 17:52:21 basic idea is to make frames like 1: ((sb-pcl::fast-method :around (cons)) # # (1 . 1)) display as 1: ((:method foo :around (cons)) (1 .1)) [fast-method] 17:52:42 ... fewer warnings when building SBCL? 17:53:37 I know I was absolutely shocked when some things that are STYLE-WARNINGs at one phase of the compilation turned into full WARNINGs later on, but I'm unaware of any full WARNINGs in stock SBCL on x86oids. 17:53:46 similarly, get rid of the *show-entry-point-details* stuff controlling the function names, and put that information after the frame instead 17:58:50 -!- Krystof [~csr21@82-70-15-30.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:01:10 nyef: things like: "caught STYLE-WARNING: undefined function: STYLE-WARN" are presumably harmless 18:03:20 Right, and they're STYLE-WARNINGs, not WARNINGs. 18:03:39 I'll admit that getting rid of as many STYLE-WARNINGs as possible would be nice, though. 18:03:53 And the few remaining full WARNINGs in the PPC build. 18:04:13 when I say "warning" I'm including STYLE-WARNINGs. WARNING, not so much... 18:05:23 Ah. Fair enough. 18:05:24 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@4d6f5d3b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:08:36 ok. i have a bunch stuff including code for 18:08:37 (sb-int:define-deprecated-function :final "1.0.24.5" function-arglist function-lambda-list 18:08:37 (function) 18:08:37 (function-lambda-list function)) 18:09:26 that i think i'm going to commit -- sort out the deprecation protocol later, but the framework for _a_ protocol is still nice to have 18:10:28 tweak the framework if it turns out people have radically different ideas about how deprecation should be handled 18:10:32 sound sane? 18:12:05 or "the old deprection-warning has been good enough so far, no point changing"? 18:15:02 go for it 18:18:09 done on your authority :) 18:19:53 slyrus pasted "verbose error reporting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/116718 18:20:37 whoa 18:20:50 ETOOMUCHQUOTING 18:21:19 yeah, but is that really an error or not? one doesn't know by quickly glancing at the reams of output scrolling by 18:21:29 can someone update asdf in sbcl to 2.010 ? 18:21:40 it includes a huge speedup, in addition to minor features/bugfixes. 18:21:44 it's not a bug, but the QUOTE isn't supposed to be there 18:22:11 Fare: i can do it tomorrow if no-one else does it today. right now i'm heading home 18:22:17 thanks 18:24:50 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181058025.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:33:55 -!- tsuru` is now known as tsuru 18:48:17 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:48:54 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 18:57:12 -!- rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 19:25:44 tcr1 [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 19:27:55 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:36 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:05 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 19:43:11 Krystof [~csr21@csrhodes.plus.com] has joined #sbcl 19:43:11 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 19:54:39 Are keyword arguments parsed in the order they're specified? 19:55:26 They're parsed in the order in which they're specified to be parsed? 19:56:20 Hm actually, the spec may indeed say that later keyword parameter initforms are allowed to access the value of earlier ones 20:02:23 Oh, /initforms/... 20:02:59 clhs 3.4.1.4 20:02:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm 20:04:09 Odd... it doesn't say so explicitly there. 20:04:15 It does say left-to-right, though. 20:04:42 Just not whether the leftward arguments are in-scope for the more rightward initforms. 20:05:28 But that case is covered by 3.4.1 itself, and it's good. 20:06:01 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #sbcl 20:06:01 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 20:06:19 The wording there is a touch ambiguous, though. 20:14:09 pkhuong_: aroundp 20:19:55 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:14 hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has joined #sbcl 20:20:39 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@dhcp-174.mirrorimage.net] has left #sbcl 20:42:06 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:19 cow-orker [~mw@c541745C1.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #sbcl 20:46:56 -!- homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:05:44 homie [~user@xdsl-78-34-235-239.netcologne.de] has joined #sbcl 22:09:03 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:09:25 nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has joined #sbcl 22:09:25 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o nikodemus 22:21:34 is Franz the new ITA? Hoovering up all lisp developers everywhere? 22:29:43 Did they hoover someone else besides antifuchs? 22:51:39 I thought you were working in the new ITA, hauling all the Lisp developers away to Malaysia 22:58:09 rpg [~rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #sbcl 23:17:20 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 23:19:32 -!- nikodemus [~nikodemus@cs181199216.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:33:37 kclifton_ [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has joined #sbcl 23:33:37 -!- kclifton_ [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:37:10 -!- kclifton [~kclifton@s198-166-45-245.ab.hsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:49 tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-179-31-38.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #sbcl 23:44:06 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-87-25-189.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:49:05 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-174-141-119.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 23:55:08 -!- tsuru` [~charlie@adsl-179-31-38.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:59:02 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]