00:02:46 -!- drewc [~user@S01060013101b6ddb.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:43:36 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #sbcl 01:14:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:50:15 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-29-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:54:00 minion: memo for nikodemus: More disassembler changes (widetag lookup by virtue of a nasty hack, and a bugfix on threaded x86-64) now available. 01:54:00 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 02:15:04 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: Sleep beckons.] 05:01:07 -!- Fare [~Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:36:38 -!- rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:46:57 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 08:51:15 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 09:06:35 Blkt [~user@93-33-140-101.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has joined #sbcl 09:16:14 -!- froydnj [~froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:03:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:03:40 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 10:28:53 ASau [~user@ppp91-77-59-67.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #sbcl 10:31:37 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:12:35 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 11:41:20 fe[nl]ix [~lacedaemo@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has joined #sbcl 11:44:20 -!- ASau [~user@ppp91-77-59-67.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45:04 ASau [~user@ppp91-77-59-67.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #sbcl 11:47:15 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:48:40 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 11:48:45 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 11:49:45 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 11:54:06 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 12:05:40 -!- ASau [~user@ppp91-77-59-67.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:14:32 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:31:57 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 12:41:49 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 12:45:53 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:01:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-29-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #sbcl 13:04:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@adsl-89-134-29-75.monradsl.monornet.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:08:29 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:50:24 Krystof [~csr21@nat76.mia.three.co.uk] has joined #sbcl 13:50:24 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 14:10:26 nyef [~nyef@pool-70-20-56-192.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #sbcl 14:10:32 G'morning all. 14:11:30 hi nyef 14:23:48 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 14:27:41 -!- Krystof [~csr21@nat76.mia.three.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:33:40 So, does anyone have any ideas on how to de-KLUDGE http://repo.or.cz/w/sbcl/nyef.git/commitdiff/8d0e20332dbddc7ae0b7f74f89c8efbebfcc1265 ? 14:43:26 can't you just change define-primitive-object and the code that initializes *specialized-array-element-type-properties* to also stash the widetag -> name lookup information in some extra data structure? 14:45:40 or at least just compute it from *primitive-types* and *saetp* once, instead of separately in every backend 14:46:31 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.181] has joined #sbcl 15:08:12 Computing it once would probably be doable, in compiler/generic/early-objdef, I guess. 15:08:53 Realistically, though, it has to include the "unused" widetags, so deriving it from any of the primobj or saetp stuff is out. 15:53:59 Is it just me, or has the OVERAGER-CHARACTER-BUFFERING test in stream.lisp been failing since 1.0.43.6 for anyone else too? 15:54:33 *nyef* hasn't run the test suite in a while, so he doesn't know if it fails for him. 15:55:26 Ah, I have something that emails me if the test suite isn't happy. 15:55:54 joshe: yeah, I've run into that here too 15:56:32 not sure when it started 15:58:17 I just verified that 1.0.43.5 passes for me and .6 fails, which isn't that surprising given the commit message for .6 16:04:06 Hunh. I don't even have anything built since 1.0.42.54. 17:46:31 tsuru [~charlie@c-174-50-217-160.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #sbcl 17:48:37 joshe: foom & deepfire have had some kind of build farm running at some point in past 17:48:52 perhaps you can register your machine to that in case that's still done 17:49:32 There was someone who asked me about that in the past. 17:51:03 However I didn't like how the build script (iirc) simply downloaded a second script every night and executed it. 17:52:12 "Failure: stream.impure.lisp / OVEAGER-CHARACTER-BUFFERING" 17:52:18 I'm fine with blindly executing anything that's committed to build.sh, but a little wary of blindly executing a script off some guy's machine every night. 17:53:14 nyef: I'm glad it's not just me 17:53:45 I'm somewhat annoyed that a test which fails on one of the most supported configurations got committed. 17:53:57 (Tested on x86_64/linux.) 17:54:11 That means that, for the first time in many months, the test failures on OpenBSD/i386 and OpenBSD/amd64 are the same as everywhere else. 17:55:14 Nice. 17:58:46 joshe: btw, i don't know how many other openbsd sbcl users there are, but i recently started using openbsd heavily again, and was really happy to see how easy it was to run sbcl on it now, so kudos. 18:02:09 Thanks. 18:03:18 One of these days I'd like to start getting CL software in the ports tree, so you could do something like `pkg_add stumpwm-sbcl' and have it work. 18:04:57 It occurs to me that if we placed more of an emphasis on fasl compatibility, it might be easier for distros to create packages for lisp projects. 18:05:21 Anything that makes packaging easier would be welcome. 18:05:51 From what I've seen, a great deal of CL software is (unintentionally or not) rather hostile to packaging. 18:06:04 Problem is, maintaining fasl compatibility would hamstring our own development. 18:06:24 However with OpenBSD at least, it's easy to have a package depend on the exact version of SBCL with which it was built. 18:06:53 Mmm. I don't think it's quite intentional, so much as a combination of apathy and ignorance. 18:07:33 There seems to be a very common assumption that releases aren't useful. 18:08:18 Mmm. That, or that releases are more trouble than they're worth, or that the software isn't "ready for release", or whatever. 18:08:23 Or that everyone will should use the most current release. 18:08:32 Yes, that too. 18:10:31 All this means more work for packagers, they are effectively doing their own release engineering for a great deal of code which they are not very familiar with. 18:11:05 Not to mention the annoyance of having to host many source tarballs themselves. 18:11:39 :) 18:12:59 Right, exactly. 18:13:42 Very few lisp projects have a release culture, let alone a release engineering culture, plus archives of historical releases, et cetera. 18:14:58 Even SBCL's release schedule could use some improvement, imo. 18:15:31 The monthly releases are great, but it's just a little too frequent for packaging. 18:16:34 Most of the supported platforms could be autobuilt, provided sufficient infrastructure for doing so. 18:17:02 I had a daily build and test system set up at one point, but it's bitrotted and the machine I was using for it is no longer. 18:17:29 It would be nice if for one month out of the year, the freeze continued for the whole next month with more through testing on obscure platforms, and then a more "long-term" release was made. 18:17:44 Perhaps bumping the minor number then. 18:18:41 I suspect the obscure platforms that can't be easily emulated have also bitrotted. When was the last time someone built on Alpha? 18:19:44 (I won't even bring up HP-PA.) 18:20:21 I'd just ditch them :-) 18:20:52 MIPS, SPARC, and PPC can at least be easily emulated. 18:22:01 I'd like to try OpenBSD ports of HP-PA and Alpha sometime :) 18:22:50 I suspect Alpha will need to become fully 64-bit first though, and that I'll run into all sorts of fun bitrot on both of them. 18:22:54 i tried to build on hppa a number of years ago to no success, and now my machines are in storage. 18:23:37 My hppa machine no longer powers on. 18:25:50 Expecting someone to keep real hardware around for these platforms is a nonstarter. It works for a little while, but then that person gets bored and wanders off, the hardware dies, the basement gets cleaned up and the old power hog gets turned off, etc. 18:26:58 If QEMU can't emulate a full system running Linux for a target well enough to build SBCL, that target is probably doomed to terminal bitrot. 18:27:25 Building using QEMU is horribly slow, though. 18:27:32 at some point, emulation from a modern machine becomes faster than building on the old hp750 or similar. 18:28:11 I wasn't doing full self-builds on QEMU very often. Cross compiling from the linux/x86-64 host was tolerable. 18:30:10 Okay, so that gives us MIPS, maybe? 18:30:31 mips, mipsel, sparc, and ppc, actually. 18:30:46 Hmm. 18:30:53 I'm not exactly sure I've tried ppc; I have ppc hardware around still. 18:31:00 PPC isn't quite a worry in that sense right now... Yeah, exactly. 18:31:02 The G5 is gone, but the TiBook soldiers on. 18:31:15 So, PPC64 port? 18:31:45 Who would bother? 18:31:48 Would PPC64 actually be useful? 18:31:57 I -might- bother. 18:31:58 I'd much rather see SPARC64. 18:32:18 joshe: Have at, then. We'll be here for moral (and technical) support. 18:32:30 I intend to, eventually. 18:33:27 Insufficient time and skill at the moment :) 18:34:04 The skill is easy enough to come by. 18:34:13 With time, yes. 18:34:16 hmm, how long does sbcl take to build on an ultra 5 these days? 18:34:18 Exactly! 18:34:43 If I ever get back into this, it'll be for ARM. 18:34:48 chandler: Do you use SBCL's disassembler much? 18:34:58 No. 18:35:06 i have a stack of old ultras in storage. i had always hoped to do some sbcl stuff on them, but they're so loud, and increasingly underpowered, now. 18:35:08 Okay. 18:35:26 ARM. Now there's a project that I should pick back up. 18:35:31 tokenrove: fwiw, it takes me about an hour on a 450MHz PPC G4 18:36:01 nyef: porting SBCL to an architecture that isn't dead? 18:36:05 An hour sounds about right for that G4. It takes me about half an hour on a GHz G5. 18:36:10 What an odd concept. 18:36:23 joshe: Porting SBCL to ARM. We can't let the CCL people get too much of a lead! 18:36:55 especially now that emacs works on the ipad ;) 18:37:35 Aren't interpreters verboten on Apple's i-devices? 18:37:57 good thing you can disable the interpreter in SBCL 18:38:21 is anyone running a device like that efika smartbook the clozure crew are giving away? 18:38:30 Or is that something that they only enforce if they feel it's in their best interest? 18:38:53 joshe: they've now changed it to disallow loading code from outside sources 18:39:02 stassats: I heard that compilers for non-C/C++/ObjC languages are banned too 18:39:29 but, mostly, there's this thing called jailbreaking. 18:39:31 i used to do a lot of arm assembly on arm7, and if i were actually using an arm machine daily, maybe that would motivate me to work on sbcl/arm. 18:39:53 pkhuong: ah, so as long as all the code is included with the app then CL interpreters/compilers are allowed? 18:41:10 that's the idea, yes 18:41:35 but there are sure to be more interesting targets the iPad, like Linux/ARM netbooks or tablets 18:41:35 Neat 18:41:54 MIPS netbooks? 18:41:54 esp. Meego phones and tablets 18:42:08 Sure, but it is still an obvious and interesting target. 18:42:17 nyef: I still want to get one of those, but they're expensive and the battery life is terrible. 18:42:36 As a practical matter, the Acer CULV laptop I have is better in every way. 18:42:52 Several of the OpenBSD folks love those MIPS netbooks from what I hear. 18:43:31 joshe: they also love open. 18:43:33 Yes, but their judgement is already suspect. 18:43:36 One problem with netbooks is the display resolution. 18:44:29 I have a 11.6" Acer laptop with 1366x768 resolution. Anything higher than that and I'd be squinting or pointlessly bumping up the system font DPI. 18:45:02 chandler: that's what they say about lispers. 18:45:04 I've worked with 1400x1050 on 12" (4:3). Worked fine, and was really pleasant to read. 18:45:17 I have an AspireOne, which does 1024x800, which isn't horrible, but isn't great, either. 18:45:39 joshe: I know, I talk with people from ualberta a lot. 18:45:40 Are you sure that's x800, not x600? 18:45:49 You're right. x600. 18:45:55 My mistake. 18:46:23 I think I'd like something with a decent aspect ratio and at least 1680 horizontal, though. 18:46:25 i'd pick up one of these efika things if only the ram were upgradable. has anyone tried one? 18:46:33 (That's what I've rather gotten used to on my G5.) 18:46:48 -!- mbohun [~mbohun@ppp115-156.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:46:48 There's a big difference between the 10" netbooks and the 11.6" ones. The latter have full size keyboards and generally much better internals (though there are Atom machines at that size too). 18:46:50 pkhuong: oh, cool. 18:47:17 My display looks to be 10.1". 18:48:16 nyef: Oh, by the way, if memory serves you have a HP laptop that is covered by the nvidia class action settlement. 18:48:27 Oh? 18:48:35 This I haven't heard about. 18:48:50 nyef: http://www.nvidiasettlement.com/ 18:49:44 If you experienced display symptoms, they're offering a replacement of "similar kind and value" (though no word on whether that's used, refurbished, or new). 18:52:31 What I experienced was a complete failure to start up, with random video garbage. 18:52:53 But it seemed more like a problem with the memory controller than with the display. 18:53:25 I'm pretty sure that's caused by the nvidia chipset. 18:53:37 My dad has a system with a 6150 that's doing the same thing. 18:53:46 (geforce 6150) 18:53:48 Hrm. 18:53:58 Yeah, "6150 Go" 18:54:19 So, if I plug the bits back together again, there's a chance it'll be semi-revived? 18:55:00 It might work if you plug it in again, but the settlement offers the opportunity to send it in and get a replacement laptop. 18:55:06 If it's dead, why not? 18:55:55 Mmm. Sounds good to me. 18:57:01 I'm using the hard drive elsewhere, though. 18:57:24 They're not very specific about whether the machine needs to be in original or even working condition. 18:57:57 It's not in working condition: The display doesn't come up, and the trackpad on/off light doesn't respond... 18:59:18 By working condition I meant "a condition that might work if the nvidia chipset hadn't been cursed by fatal death". 18:59:41 Mmm. Plausible. 18:59:59 I'll have to do something about the drive, though. 19:02:19 And I can claim the first four symptoms as having started occuring as of February. 19:05:53 Hrm. The "GS866UA" is affected, but apparently not the "GS866UA#ABA"? 19:07:40 What's the actual cause of failure, anyway? 19:09:44 Thermal failure. 19:09:58 http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1028703/nvidia-g84-g86-bad and the links on that page make for entertaining reading. 19:10:31 (Though it's a bit hyperbolic.) 19:10:59 -!- foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:11:02 Okay, thermal failure definitely matches up with what I saw earlier this year. 19:11:30 HP issued a BIOS update for my laptop (also with the 6150 Go) that caused the fan to run all the time. So far it hasn't failed, but it's no longer a laptop computer as I know it. With the fan running constantly, battery life is on the order of "I hope I can get this plugged in again before the battery dies". 19:11:53 Mmm. That's no good. 19:12:09 It's also extremely hot and loud. 19:12:34 My MacBook Pro with the 8600M GT is a ticking time bomb, though Apple has a repair program of their own if it does die. 19:12:38 I've kindof gotten used to the "runs for north of five hours while doing frequent SBCL builds" kind of battery life. 19:22:08 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 19:47:38 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:43 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-182-202-208.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #sbcl 19:53:24 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:01:44 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:15:10 tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #sbcl 20:18:32 -!- tcr [~tcr@cpc5-bour5-2-0-cust340.15-1.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #sbcl 20:19:31 foom [~jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #sbcl 20:20:02 Hello foom. 20:40:33 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #sbcl 20:57:05 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 20:59:11 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 21:16:34 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hargettp] 21:22:26 hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #sbcl 21:27:02 -!- hargettp [~anonymous@pool-71-184-178-112.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:39 -!- Blkt [~user@93-33-140-101.ip44.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Error: do not makunbound t please] 22:15:18 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58:41 rbarraud [~rbarraud@118-92-153-145.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #sbcl