2020-03-01T00:00:08Z phoe: ;; it's a pity that SBCL doesn't allow anonymous classes in there
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2020-03-01T01:08:40Z matzy_: i have a relatively simple question.  just for my own experience of using CL to write back-end APIs, i'm going to setup a react front-end/cl back-end project.  I "set up" the back-end (take that lightly, I just followed an example video I found online) that was using the ningle and clack packages for running it
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2020-03-01T01:12:13Z matzy_: now i work as a full-stack developer, so i'm obviously familiar with how they work, but my experience with common lisp is limited to working through about 2/3rd's of PCL, I figured I'd learn the rest as I went along.  Basically all I want my API to do is create routes the front-end can hit, interact with a sql database, do any data manipulation (if
2020-03-01T01:12:13Z matzy_: necessary) and then send json back to the front-end.  I don't want the API sending templates themselves or anything like that back, jjst straight json
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2020-03-01T01:13:02Z matzy_: with that in mind, am i using the right CL tools for the API, or is there something better suited for that/something else I will need that I'm not thinking of now?
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2020-03-01T01:19:54Z matzy_: oh yeah, i'm also an emacs user (like 90% of people here I'm sure) and roll my own 2500+ line config that I wrote myself, so maybe that adds a tad bit to my cl experience (I know obviously they are separate languages, but I think I read once that elisp was "inspired" or something by common-lisp, so there's more similarity there than between, say,
2020-03-01T01:19:54Z matzy_: elisp and scheme
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2020-03-01T01:28:19Z _death: matzy_: sure, that setup could work.. personally I use hunchentoot + a few operators to create "json handlers".. there are other libraries, like https://github.com/joaotavora/snooze
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2020-03-01T01:47:01Z matzy_: _death I've heard a few people comment (when researching this and reading other forum posts) that why not just use huchentoot, and from the readme and diving into their site, it seems the only downside (if it even is one) is that it does not support all of portable common lisp, whatever the heck that is.  from googling all i see is that it's a
2020-03-01T01:47:01Z matzy_: non-emacs interactive lisp IDE.  is that correct?
2020-03-01T01:49:04Z _death: no.. hunchentoot is an http server
2020-03-01T01:49:20Z _death: https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/
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2020-03-01T01:54:52Z matzy_: right, so what is portable common lisp and why does it not support it?  "Therefore, it cannot be implemented completely in portable Common Lisp."
2020-03-01T01:55:12Z _death: the documentation conflates portable and standard
2020-03-01T01:56:03Z pjb: matzy_: I don't know what portable CL is.  There's conforming CL code.  It's code that will run the same on all conforming implementations of CL.
2020-03-01T01:56:31Z pjb: matzy_: it's not possible to write a web server in conforming CL code, because the CL standard doesn't specify anything about sockets.
2020-03-01T01:56:52Z _death: the Common Lisp standard does not cover sockets or threads, but there are libraries that expose such functionality through use of implementation-specific operators
2020-03-01T01:57:41Z pjb: matzy_: there's also the problem of encoding, which the web server would have to deal with itself, instead of relying on CL :external-format, since the values for the later are implementation dependent.
2020-03-01T01:57:59Z _death: using these libraries, you can give better chance for your own code to be portable across the various implementations
2020-03-01T01:58:03Z pjb: matzy_: but apart from listening to the internet and connecting to clients, all the rest of a web server could be written in conforming CL code.
2020-03-01T01:59:14Z pjb: matzy_: the use of those "portability" libraries means that your code can be conforming, relying on those portability libraries to be portable to different implementations, to use those implementation specific features and extensions in a portable way.
2020-03-01T01:59:50Z pjb: matzy_: saying that your code is not portable, is saying that it uses some specific implementation, implementation-specific feature.
2020-03-01T02:00:06Z pjb: matzy_: some people write in sbcl, not in CL.  (They use #sbcl, instead of #lisp).
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2020-03-01T02:02:08Z _death: since hunchentoot uses such libraries (e.g., usocket and bordeaux-threads) it works on all important Common Lisp implementations today
2020-03-01T02:03:41Z _death: here you can see a portability report for some libraries: https://shinmera.github.io/portability/
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2020-03-01T03:23:11Z matzy_: pjb thanks for sharing all this with me.  the last part kinda blew my mind.  i write in sbcl and NOT lisp?
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2020-03-01T03:25:36Z matzy_: i assumed they were all just different flavors of the same language....i do, however, get everything you were talkimw=a=f=fawwww
2020-03-01T03:28:29Z matzy_: (cat jumped on the keyboard) get everything you were talking about regarding portability though, makes perfect sense.  and why huchentoot is so commonly suggested.  i'm on sbcl like most noobs
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2020-03-01T05:07:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-01T07:02:35Z ebrasca: beach: Morning
2020-03-01T07:02:44Z ebrasca: Morning!
2020-03-01T07:02:51Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-03-01T07:20:49Z ebrasca: beach: How are you doing? Are you in some beach?
2020-03-01T07:23:42Z beach: I am making slow but steady progress on code generation.  But I am also a member of the ELS program committee, so I need to start the referee process soon, probably tomorrow.  I am not on a beach, no.
2020-03-01T07:23:47Z beach: ebrasca: What about you?
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2020-03-01T07:32:41Z ebrasca: beach: I am fine, I don't think I can go to ELS.
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2020-03-01T07:48:09Z beach: ebrasca: Sorry to hear that you can't go.
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2020-03-01T10:04:10Z random-nick: is there a standard-defined way to do arithmetic with overflowing?
2020-03-01T10:04:37Z no-defun-allowed: What do you want to happen on overflow?
2020-03-01T10:04:54Z random-nick: well like in x86
2020-03-01T10:05:09Z random-nick: the overflowed bits get truncated
2020-03-01T10:05:38Z random-nick: I could use CL:LDB but I was wondering if there was another way
2020-03-01T10:06:13Z lukego: good day gentlepeople
2020-03-01T10:06:26Z beach: Hello lukego.
2020-03-01T10:06:38Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL can optimise arithmetic in LDB to do word or byte-wise arithmetic, from memory.
2020-03-01T10:07:04Z lukego: How are you, beach?
2020-03-01T10:07:31Z beach: lukego: Busy as usual.  Working on code generation.  What about you?
2020-03-01T10:08:47Z Shinmera: random-nick: There is not.
2020-03-01T10:09:12Z lukego: Having a lazy sunday morning fantasizing about doing some Lisp hacking again. I got my installation of sbcl/quicklisp/etc with Nix "just so" so I'm running out of excuses to not write some actual code :)
2020-03-01T10:09:33Z Shinmera: random-nick: If you LOGAND with a mask, SBCL for instance can recognise that you're truncating and optimise it.
2020-03-01T10:10:07Z beach: lukego: Go for it!
2020-03-01T10:10:08Z Shinmera is busy doing marketing for his Lisp game
2020-03-01T10:10:33Z jackdaniel encourages Shinmera to tell us more about it
2020-03-01T10:10:34Z lukego: actually, *really* out of excuses, I noticed now that the last time I sat down to tinker with Lisp I even got org-babel up and running with SLIME :)
2020-03-01T10:10:47Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I will once I'm done writing up this article! :)
2020-03-01T10:11:00Z jackdaniel: does it have a story?
2020-03-01T10:11:02Z lukego: (amazing what great shape the lisp ecosystem is in these days!)
2020-03-01T10:11:15Z jackdaniel likes only games with a good narrative
2020-03-01T10:11:26Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: Yes, it is narrative-focused.
2020-03-01T10:11:32Z jackdaniel: \o/
2020-03-01T10:11:35Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, SBCL prefers to compile the example (defun f (x) (declare (fixnum x)) (logand #xff (+ x 42))) using boxed fixnum addition and an AND instruction to truncate the value.
2020-03-01T10:12:45Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: you need to declare it as an UB-8.
2020-03-01T10:13:18Z Shinmera: or any form of ub that's "good"
2020-03-01T10:13:22Z Shinmera: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Modular-arithmetic
2020-03-01T10:13:26Z lukego: beach: Indeed I shall. I decided that I'll take a detour in life and learn to do electronics, ultimately trying to emulate Marc Battyani, and first step seems to be designing a PCB. In principle I should learn how to use the Kicad GUI for this but it actually seems like doing the schematic design in a custom SEXP notation is pretty sensible low-NIH approach.
2020-03-01T10:13:55Z lukego: I don't suppose anybody happens to have already done a PCB schematics DSL in CL that's worth checking out first?
2020-03-01T10:14:13Z beach: Not me, but that would be a good thing to have.
2020-03-01T10:14:42Z jackdaniel: I know someone who have worked on CL-based DSL -> verilog transpiler
2020-03-01T10:14:47Z jackdaniel: but afaik it is not open soruce
2020-03-01T10:14:49Z jackdaniel: source*
2020-03-01T10:15:29Z lukego: jackdaniel: neat. that'll be my next step. first I wanna make my own custom FPGA dev board to program.
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2020-03-01T10:45:58Z aeth: random-nick: I usually just do MOD of a power of 2
2020-03-01T10:56:19Z lukego: Huh... Turns out that Kicad's internal data format for schematics export is already S-expressions... I'm taking that as a good omen. As seen on the ~5th screenshot on https://kicad.txplore.com/index-p=115.html
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2020-03-01T11:59:31Z jmercouris: anyone know of libraries to parse rss feeds? I see: https://github.com/kisom/cl-feedparse
2020-03-01T11:59:36Z jmercouris: but it appears incomplete
2020-03-01T12:00:00Z jmercouris: I also see: https://github.com/ruricolist/cl-feedparser
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2020-03-01T12:00:07Z antoszka: That's usually the case with CL libraries ;)
2020-03-01T12:00:44Z antoszka: They were almost-good-enough for whatever purpose the author wrote them abandoned them.
2020-03-01T12:00:46Z jmercouris: no, it is not :-)
2020-03-01T12:00:50Z antoszka: haha :)
2020-03-01T12:01:29Z antoszka: Well, I *do* love many libraries and some are just pure beauty, but unfortunately this seems to be truth about the majority :)
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2020-03-01T12:43:05Z Shinmera: Alright, here's a lengthy article about my lisp game project: https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/381
2020-03-01T12:43:10Z Shinmera: Fresh off the presses!
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2020-03-01T13:18:06Z scymtym: Shinmera: nice. i hope it goes well
2020-03-01T13:18:39Z Shinmera: Thanks, me too! :)
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2020-03-01T13:53:48Z lukego: hey what's SBCL lingo for EXT:REQUIRED-ARGUMENT?
2020-03-01T13:54:09Z phoe: lukego: what does it do?
2020-03-01T13:54:12Z Bike: what is ext:required-argument
2020-03-01T13:54:21Z phoe: I know of alexandria:required-argument that is named the same but might not do the same thing
2020-03-01T13:54:36Z lukego: I'm dating myself... in CMUCL that's the default value you specify for defstruct slots that need to be initialized at construction time
2020-03-01T13:54:59Z lukego: phoe: Thanks I'll check Alexandria
2020-03-01T13:55:01Z phoe: alexandria:required-argument it is then
2020-03-01T13:55:06Z Shinmera: lukego: I just explicitly define a constructor for the struct.
2020-03-01T13:55:21Z Shinmera: that way the argument can be a required one instead of a karg
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2020-03-01T13:56:37Z lukego: ok... I don't remember why I always used that in the past... possibly something about making the compiler happy when specifying a slot-type that isn't (OR NULL ...) and wanting to be clear that it won't be initialized with a wrongly-typed default value...
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2020-03-01T13:59:30Z _death: a plain (error ...) is also ok
2020-03-01T13:59:35Z Shinmera: if I remember correctly if it's required in the constructor the default in the slot can be whatever
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2020-03-01T14:04:51Z lukego: _death: yeah. alexandria:required-arg is just an (error ...) and maybe it's so in CMUCL too.
2020-03-01T14:05:13Z lukego: (The real scandal here is that I didn't have alexandria loaded and so didn't see it with my apropos search. Sorted now!)
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2020-03-01T14:06:56Z _death: I guess a more elaborate version could be require-arg-of-type that sets up a use-value restart
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2020-03-01T14:09:53Z lukego: seriously, the Lisp ecosystem is in amazing shape these days, everything just works. wow. :)
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2020-03-01T14:10:18Z Shinmera wishes the "everything" extended to his own projects
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2020-03-01T14:11:19Z lukego: great job everybody :)
2020-03-01T14:12:18Z Shinmera: Currently trying to figure out why my game just opens and closes on MacOS without an error  or anything, as if it had just closed naturally.
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2020-03-01T14:27:19Z phoe: Is there any way to set the default restart to use in sldb when I press "q"?
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2020-03-01T15:38:16Z Bike: phoe: swank:*sldb-quit-restart*
2020-03-01T15:38:26Z Bike: or you could just remap the key
2020-03-01T15:41:21Z phoe: Bike: thanks.
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2020-03-01T17:41:34Z nmunro: Hi all, first time in here, I'm looking to develop a library for web archiving (it's my day job) and there's not one yet for common lisp that I can find, I have most of the pieces, except gzip decompression, which is a little difficult, since web archives are actually plain text files of concatonated gzip streams, unfortunately the gzip spec says
2020-03-01T17:41:35Z nmunro: that makes a viable compressed file, however decompressing the file makes getting the individual records difficult. Is there a way to read a binary file in plain text mode, getting a series of bytes then decompressing them?
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2020-03-01T17:51:15Z luis: nmunro: have you tried using chipz?
2020-03-01T17:51:47Z nmunro: I've looked at it, but maybe I've misunderstood how it works
2020-03-01T17:53:31Z luis: Its
2020-03-01T17:53:35Z nmunro: Typically in other languages the pattern is to seek to a byte offset, read the length of the record and decompress the block
2020-03-01T17:54:12Z nmunro: Without decompressing the file as a whole
2020-03-01T17:54:39Z luis: Its documentation has an example where a an octet stream is opened. And you can seek with serf file-position
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2020-03-01T17:55:07Z luis: Sorry, typing on a touch screen. :-/
2020-03-01T17:55:27Z luis: Setf, not serf.
2020-03-01T17:56:07Z nmunro: It's ok, I use the file-position function in plain text warc files, and that works, however my issues seems to be opening the file in the first place before decompression can begin, I probably have the wrong element-type
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2020-03-01T17:57:06Z luis: You want '(unsigned-byte 8)
2020-03-01T17:58:38Z nmunro: I tried that, I get an end of file stacktrace
2020-03-01T17:59:56Z nmunro: Which is what made me think there's something strange going on
2020-03-01T18:00:19Z luis: What's the file size and what offset are you setting?
2020-03-01T18:00:32Z luis: (obvious question, I know)
2020-03-01T18:05:36Z nmunro: So, I was seeking to offset 333 and reading 1043 bytes, the file is 3k in size
2020-03-01T18:07:07Z luis: Use a paste service to show us the code.
2020-03-01T18:07:56Z nmunro: Sure :)
2020-03-01T18:08:16Z nmunro: Is there a preferred paste service here, some places have preferred ones
2020-03-01T18:09:07Z phoe: http://plaster.tymoon.eu
2020-03-01T18:09:20Z phoe: it has good common lisp highlighting
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2020-03-01T18:12:25Z nmunro: So there's some associated file data that's required to make it work, but: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1683#1683
2020-03-01T18:12:57Z nmunro: I'm using the data available from the pywb repo for now: https://github.com/webrecorder/pywb/tree/develop/sample_archive
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2020-03-01T18:14:13Z nmunro: the example-extra.warc (plain text) works just fine, but the example.warc.gz is where I'm having issues
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2020-03-01T18:16:35Z splittist: nmunro:  asdf:system-relative-pathname might be a nicer way of handling your opening defparameters. (I know you don't care at the moment (: )
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2020-03-01T18:17:12Z nmunro: splittist: I'm relatively new to common lisp, so the suggestion is appreciated :)
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2020-03-01T18:26:16Z luis: nmunro: could the length be the number of bytes after decompression?
2020-03-01T18:27:16Z nmunro: I'm not 100% sure of the data, I'm trusting the pywb data as it's often used as a reference, but it may not be correct
2020-03-01T18:28:01Z nmunro: The way web archiving works is pretty bad in the tooling and the 'standards' don't practically work and have unofficial extensions to just get things to work
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2020-03-01T18:29:29Z luis: There are some efficiency improvements you could make, like using vectors and read-sequence or even passing the stream directly to chips, but I don't see anything obviously wrong with the reading code itself
2020-03-01T18:30:39Z nmunro: I'd certainly like to know how I could improve using read-sequence, I imagine this is to do with me repeatedly calling read-byte?
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2020-03-01T18:32:12Z nmunro: I'm going to try to generate my own test data and see if that improves anything
2020-03-01T18:32:27Z MichaelRaskin: I guess alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector could be a faster way
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2020-03-01T18:47:10Z luis: nmuro: good luck. You could try and do some experiments with a simple gz file too to get the hang of things
2020-03-01T18:47:53Z nmunro: That's very true, I suppose any text content gzip compressed and concatonated together would work just as well!
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2020-03-01T18:48:23Z nmunro: So long as the byte offsets for each beginning block and the length are known
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2020-03-01T19:19:53Z oitofelix: Hello everybody.  How can I expand a macrolet?
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2020-03-01T19:34:46Z pjb: oitofelix: (defmacro expand (form &environment env) `',(macroexpand form env)) (macrolet ((moo (x) `(list ',x))) (expand (moo 42)))
2020-03-01T19:37:43Z _death: if you're using slime, try C-c M-e (macrostep-expand)
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2020-03-01T19:56:09Z oitofelix: pjb: Thanks!  I'm doing this in Emacs Lisp.  It worked fined after I changed defmacro to cl-defmacro.  Now I'm trying to understand why calling macroexpand doesn't work when put directly into the body of macrolet.
2020-03-01T19:57:02Z Bike: oh, is that what you mean? it's because macroexpand is just a function, so it only knows about the environment you pass in (or if you don't pass in an environment, the global environment)
2020-03-01T19:57:20Z Bike: it doesn't know about the local environment created by the macrolet, so it can't expand those macros
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2020-03-01T20:17:23Z oitofelix: Bike: So when 'expand is called in the body of 'macrolet it captures macrolet's lexical environment (using the &environment feature of 'defmacro)?  Where is this behavior specified exactly?  Couldn't find it in ELisp nor Emacs' CL  documentation nor in the Hyperspec.  Is there another way to capture this environement and pass it to 'macroexpand or the only path is this indirection using a macro definition?
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2020-03-01T20:18:22Z Bike: It's mentioned in the page on DEFMACRO and in more detail in CLHS 3.4.4, "Macro Lambda Lists"
2020-03-01T20:18:51Z Bike: and no, you pretty much need it from a macro. You can think of the macro environment as ceasing to exist once compilation is finished (because why would it be needed?)
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2020-03-01T20:21:24Z Bike: For the same reason, the environment object has dynamic extent, meaning it's undefined behavior if you try to use it once the macro function with the &environment has finished. Though in practice it'll probably work anyway.
2020-03-01T20:24:05Z Bike: What you're trying to do is a bit unusual, can I ask what you have in mind? There might be a better way to do it.
2020-03-01T20:26:33Z oitofelix: Bike: I was trying to test the expansion of a local macro I defined.
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2020-03-01T20:28:33Z Bike: ah. well, if your editor doesn't help you'd need something like pjb said, yeah.
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2020-03-01T20:30:41Z oitofelix: Bike: I'm using GNU Emacs.  Do you know any way it could help me out-of-the-box in doing that (to debug ELisp code)?
2020-03-01T20:31:19Z Bike: er, wait, is this elisp you're doing? I'm talking about common lisp, cos that's what the channel's about. What I said might not apply to elisp.
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2020-03-01T20:31:57Z Bike: but no, i don't. most people here, including me, use an emacs library/whatever called SLIME, but that's not out of the box.
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2020-03-01T20:36:06Z oitofelix: Bike: I think it applies.  At least it behaves as if it applies, as far as I can tell the difference.  I'm asking here because I don't know any channel exclusively dedicated to Emacs Lisp.  This is the best approximation I could find.
2020-03-01T20:36:54Z oitofelix: Furthermore I'm profoundly interested in Lisp in general.  Understanding the difference between dialects is a plus.
2020-03-01T20:37:35Z Bike: mm. well, be cautious. this is the kind of obscure thing where differences can pop up. and you'd probably want #emacs. they'd be more helpful with using emacs by itself, too.
2020-03-01T20:38:41Z Bike: actually, it looks like elisp doesn't have macrolet, normally?
2020-03-01T20:41:58Z oitofelix: Bike: I tend to think #emacs is not exclusive enough to Emacs Lisp matters.  Let me do an experiment to test this hypothesis (for the sake of science).  I'll ask the same question there and see with how much time and accuracy it'll be addressed.
2020-03-01T20:42:49Z Bike: well, elisp is an extension language. i imagine people on #emacs are more interested in emacs than in the ins and outs of the language, generally
2020-03-01T20:42:55Z Bike: nonetheless, they know elisp, and i don't
2020-03-01T20:44:17Z oitofelix: I think it depends on how you define "normally".  The name-space of the CL package has been sanitized and the package is shipped in the standard distribution and parts of it are documented in the main ELisp programming manual.
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2020-03-01T20:44:43Z Bike: well, there ya go - i had no idea
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2020-03-01T20:59:14Z pjb: oitofelix: there would be ##lisp for lisp in general, which includes emacs lisp.  Of course, #emacs should be able to answer, but it's more a #lispcafe -like channel than properly emacs, most of the time…
2020-03-01T20:59:49Z pjb: oitofelix: however, emacs lisp is close to Common Lisp (despite the push to segregate CL stuff with cl- prefixes…).
2020-03-01T21:01:50Z pjb: oitofelix: also, most of the time, you can implement and debug your code in CL, and then use it directly in emacs lisp with little change.  Have a look at (intersection common-lisp emacs-lisp scheme) http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/
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2020-03-01T21:11:02Z aeth: afaik ##lisp is mostly CL vs. Scheme, but without the hostility that "vs." implies. Probably because #lisp and #scheme got sick of such discussions.
2020-03-01T21:13:16Z oitofelix: pjb: Thanks for the pointer.  Really interesting!  No luck in #emacs yet, though.
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2020-03-01T21:19:47Z oitofelix: pjb: Indeed, in my humble experience Emacs is close enough to CL that experienced CL programmers are able to answer more profound questions about it (without even noticing it) than (casual) ELisp programmers.  I think it's not as easy to find experienced ELisp programmers to answer questions about the language implementation itself (rather than the API for extending the editor).
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2020-03-01T22:03:31Z nmunro: I feel like I'm missing something with the following snippet: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1684#1684 in order to copy a subset of a stream, using an offset and length, I need to have a sequence that is of size length+offset and this seems like I've misunderstood something fundamental
2020-03-01T22:05:23Z _death: nmunro: (file-position in offset) and read to an array of length LEN
2020-03-01T22:06:06Z pjb: _death: that wouldn't work on variable-length record files, such as :element-type unsigned-byte…
2020-03-01T22:06:14Z jmercouris: is there something I am missing here? what is the point of the lambda wrapping null?
2020-03-01T22:06:31Z pjb: nmunro: perhaps you'd prefer to use (unsigned-byte 8) or (unsigned-byte 16) or some other fixed-size record like that?
2020-03-01T22:06:48Z Bike: no, that's pointless, but sometimes you just end up writing like that
2020-03-01T22:06:50Z _death: pjb: obviously he should be using (unsigned-byte 8), and doesn't need to test IN, and likely doesn't want to use code-char...
2020-03-01T22:07:15Z jmercouris: yeah I was also wondering about WHEN IN
2020-03-01T22:08:08Z _death: and the array should be an octet array..
2020-03-01T22:08:37Z jmercouris: if I remove compression on my Lisp image, will it start faster?
2020-03-01T22:08:46Z jmercouris: I believe the answer is yes... but how much?
2020-03-01T22:09:00Z _death: jmercouris: measure it
2020-03-01T22:09:11Z jmercouris: not sure how to measure that
2020-03-01T22:09:18Z aeth: (deftype octet () `(unsigned-byte 8)) ; this is probably already done 3-5 times in libraries you already have installed, but another time doesn't hurt if there's not a utility library you're already using that exposes this
2020-03-01T22:09:22Z jmercouris: I could have terminal mark the time, and then the program print the time?
2020-03-01T22:09:25Z jmercouris: diff the two?
2020-03-01T22:09:40Z nmunro: Right, we'll I've tried everything except the octet thing
2020-03-01T22:09:59Z _death: man 1 time
2020-03-01T22:10:29Z jmercouris: that doesn't help
2020-03-01T22:10:30Z pjb: nmunro: https://termbin.com/ioit
2020-03-01T22:10:32Z jmercouris: my program doesn't exist
2020-03-01T22:10:37Z jmercouris: exit*
2020-03-01T22:10:38Z jmercouris: lol
2020-03-01T22:10:53Z aeth: jmercouris: The best program is the program that doesn't exist!
2020-03-01T22:11:04Z aeth: (At least according to people who are strongly against not-invented-here)
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2020-03-01T22:11:17Z pjb: aeth: not necessarily. I mean, it may not be the best, since it might need quite a bit of maintenance.
2020-03-01T22:11:41Z pjb: aeth: for example, it would have to return some status…  etc. cf IEFBR14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14
2020-03-01T22:11:58Z _death: jmercouris: since you want to measure compressed vs. noncompressed time, you can simply have a different "main" program that just exits..
2020-03-01T22:12:12Z pjb: aeth: or /bin/true.  Surprising amount of commits are needed for them…
2020-03-01T22:12:24Z nmunro: pjb: I was hoping to avoid filling an object with null data if at all possible, if it isn't possible, so be it
2020-03-01T22:12:37Z aeth: pjb: Well, yes, but I meant that any program you write is technical debt so if your program doesn't exist, then that probably means you found a good-enough alternative that already exists that you are using instead of writing a new one.
2020-03-01T22:13:01Z pjb: nmunro: what are you talking about?  We've just explained  how to do it, I even pasted the code to do it!
2020-03-01T22:13:04Z aeth: But the more I explain the joke the more this goes into #lispcafe territory...
2020-03-01T22:13:33Z pjb: nmunro: but note however, that code-char WILL produce nulls!
2020-03-01T22:14:02Z pjb: nmunro: (subseq  (loop for i below char-code-limit unless (code-char i) collect i)  0 10) #| --> (55296 55297 55298 55299 55300 55301 55302 55303 55304 55305) |#
2020-03-01T22:14:35Z pjb: nmunro: happily, most implementations don't return nil for ascii control codes (as they should IMO), so for (unsigned-byte 8), you won't get nulls.
2020-03-01T22:15:52Z jmercouris: turning off core compression results in build failures
2020-03-01T22:15:53Z jmercouris: WHAT?
2020-03-01T22:16:07Z jmercouris: clearing my cache now...
2020-03-01T22:16:19Z aeth: Most things that will give you characters really give you (or null character)s so defending against that is fairly idiomatic.
2020-03-01T22:17:10Z jmercouris: _death: 1 yes
2020-03-01T22:17:11Z pjb: grep -nHiRe 'deftype  *octet' ~/quicklisp |wc -l   -->  50
2020-03-01T22:17:16Z aeth: Since NIL is the only falsy value you can use this to be more concise than e.g. handling NullPointerExceptions in Java
2020-03-01T22:17:16Z pjb: so, not 2 or 3…
2020-03-01T22:17:54Z nmunro: Well, pjb, I'm trying to parse the code, a block of code does not an understanding make, I am trying to understand
2020-03-01T22:18:09Z jmercouris: ah, it is a library I depend on
2020-03-01T22:18:41Z jmercouris: Serapeum, not the first time it is giving me problems
2020-03-01T22:19:45Z _death: jmercouris: a long time ago, some guy I knew wrote an article about executable compression.. maybe his conclusions are still valid
2020-03-01T22:19:52Z pjb: nmunro: until you become a programmer. Then a block of code makes more sense than anything else.
2020-03-01T22:20:16Z jmercouris: a block of code is the MOST succinct way to express a programming concept between programmers
2020-03-01T22:20:37Z jmercouris: that's literally what the language we use is expressing
2020-03-01T22:20:59Z jmercouris: _death: either way, I can't test because of Serapeum :-\
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2020-03-01T22:21:39Z nmunro: Well, thanks for the help, have a good day then
2020-03-01T22:21:59Z _death: f0dder: http://f0dder.reteam.org/packandstuff.htm
2020-03-01T22:23:20Z jmercouris: _death: thanks, reading now
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2020-03-01T22:24:50Z jmercouris: not sure how applicable taht is
2020-03-01T22:24:52Z jmercouris: s/taht/that
2020-03-01T22:26:30Z _death: jmercouris: feel free to ignore.. just nostalgia ;)
2020-03-01T22:27:01Z jmercouris: was an interesting read in any case
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2020-03-01T22:28:50Z jmercouris: seemed like nmunro was a bit salty if you ask me
2020-03-01T22:30:25Z aeth: pjb: quicklisp duplicates libraries every update so you can't just wc -l it, you have to filter for duplicates
2020-03-01T22:30:31Z aeth: pjb: and obviously it'll depend on which ones you have installed
2020-03-01T22:30:38Z aeth: I think I counted 5 for me last time I tried
2020-03-01T22:31:03Z jmercouris: here's a question, a tiling WM as I understand it is a tree of nodes
2020-03-01T22:31:11Z jmercouris: with either a horizontal or a vertical split
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2020-03-01T22:31:30Z jmercouris: AKA, each split is a node with two children
2020-03-01T22:31:46Z jmercouris: let's say we are in a given child, how do we know what is to our left, right, top, or bottom?
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2020-03-01T22:42:20Z _death: with this model, you seem to have h-nodes (left/right children), v-nodes (up/down children), and w-nodes (leaf nodes containing windows) so if you get a w-node, you can look at the ancestors and their descendants as needed to figure it out
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2020-03-02T01:51:20Z no-defun-allowed: Is it possible to define custom autocompletion rules in SLIME?
2020-03-02T01:54:05Z Xach: no-defun-allowed: i will unhelpfully observe that autocompletion is written in elisp and you can write your own if you like. (sorry)
2020-03-02T01:54:49Z no-defun-allowed: Xach: Fair enough. No need to apologise though, the second half does technically answer my question.
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2020-03-02T04:09:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-02T04:12:30Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
2020-03-02T04:12:33Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2020-03-02T07:51:11Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: what sorta autocompletion do you mean?
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2020-03-02T08:01:13Z splittist: good morning
2020-03-02T08:01:43Z beach: Hello splittist.
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2020-03-02T08:05:08Z phoe: morning
2020-03-02T08:05:13Z phoe: and woop, we've discovered a CFFI bug
2020-03-02T08:05:22Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-03-02T08:05:28Z phoe: hey beach
2020-03-02T08:05:40Z beach is not bothered by CFFI bugs. 
2020-03-02T08:05:53Z phoe: I'm well aware of that (:
2020-03-02T08:05:57Z beach: :)
2020-03-02T08:07:11Z beach: What hotel are you staying at in Zürich?
2020-03-02T08:07:34Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: I was hoping to write some code that would allow SLIME to suggest symbol names from my own namespace (opcode names, which are the keys of a hash-table somewhere) in a macro (define-script).
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2020-03-02T08:09:44Z no-defun-allowed: It's not really important, but it would be neat as I sometimes forget the opcode names. Maybe I should pick better names.
2020-03-02T08:10:07Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I'll casually suggest keywords, as usual
2020-03-02T08:11:10Z phoe: beach: I haven't registered yet and will likely not come this year, since I need to route my money elsewhere this year - wedding preparations, most notably. The new pandemic also contributes to that.
2020-03-02T08:13:10Z beach: phoe: I see.  Too bad you can't make it.
2020-03-02T08:13:41Z phoe: I know. :(
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2020-03-02T13:52:14Z madrik: I read that SBCL 2.0.2 features 'block compilation', an aspect of CMUCL.  How and where is this helpful?
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2020-03-02T13:53:00Z madrik: The CMU docs say that 'it preserves efficiency in programs even when (for readability and syntactic convenience) they are broken up into many small functions.'
2020-03-02T13:53:18Z Shinmera: madrik: https://mstmetent.blogspot.com/2020/02/block-compilation-fresh-in-sbcl-202.html
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2020-03-02T14:01:49Z madrik: Shinmera: That's a very good article. Thanks. It explains the idea and implementation well.
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2020-03-02T15:34:26Z Posterdati: LiamH: hi!
2020-03-02T15:34:46Z LiamH: Hi Posterdati
2020-03-02T15:35:50Z Posterdati: LiamH: I submitted patches for cffi under openbsd and freebsd to let them run sbcl + gsll/antik
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2020-03-02T15:36:32Z LiamH: Good.
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2020-03-02T15:37:39Z Posterdati: LiamH: did you take a look to the patches I submitted to you for gsll?
2020-03-02T15:38:04Z LiamH: Do you have a merge request on gitlab?
2020-03-02T15:38:12Z Posterdati: LiamH: no
2020-03-02T15:38:23Z Posterdati: LiamH: I sent them by email
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2020-03-02T15:38:55Z Posterdati: LiamH: but I patched cffi and gsll/antil compiled with no patch on groveller
2020-03-02T15:39:10Z Posterdati: LiamH: so I think someone corrected the problem
2020-03-02T15:41:20Z LiamH: What do you want me to do?
2020-03-02T15:42:25Z Posterdati: LiamH: would be nice if someone could put up 3 or 4 virtual machines to test antik and gsll under netbsd, freebsd and openbsd, I could lend an hand to configure and install
2020-03-02T15:42:48Z Posterdati: LiamH: nothing I'm only say to you what I did :)
2020-03-02T15:43:26Z LiamH: OK
2020-03-02T15:44:11Z Posterdati: LiamH: is there anyone that could give us  a bunch of virtual machines for free?
2020-03-02T15:44:30Z LiamH: I have no idea.
2020-03-02T15:45:12Z Posterdati: LiamH: are you interested in such a thing: I mean test these packages on different architectures/implementations?
2020-03-02T15:46:02Z LiamH: I have no objection if someone else wants to do it. I lack the skills, knowledge, or time to do any of it.
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2020-03-02T15:47:03Z LiamH: Also keep in mind that many tests fail already on Linux/SBCL. I have not had time to address those either.
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2020-03-02T15:47:06Z Posterdati: LiamH: what about sbcl developer, how can they test various platforms?
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2020-03-02T15:47:26Z LiamH: You'd have to ask them, see #sbcl.
2020-03-02T15:47:33Z Posterdati: LiamH: well they could reduce in other archs :)
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2020-03-02T15:51:03Z wsinatra: Posterdati: If the #SBCL channel is too slow you can try their official mailing list too. I believe they just release 2.0.2 this weekend, so they might have their heads down
2020-03-02T15:51:31Z Posterdati: wsinatra: :)
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2020-03-02T16:02:45Z jmercouris: if I use extern c in my c++ code, can I call it from CFFI directly, or do I have to make a C file that calls that code which I then bridge?
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2020-03-02T16:04:47Z phoe: should be callable directly, since "extern C" instructs the compiler not to mangle the name
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2020-03-02T17:52:33Z jmercouris: if I use extern c in my c++ code, can I call it from CFFI directly, or do I have to make a C file that calls that code which I then bridge?
2020-03-02T17:53:09Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks, I'll give it a try
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2020-03-02T18:55:56Z vms14: do you use sly instead of slime?
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2020-03-02T19:59:02Z vms14: how I'm supposed to supply a path for cffi?
2020-03-02T19:59:29Z vms14: (pushnew #P"/usr/pkg/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*) tried that but no effect
2020-03-02T19:59:49Z vms14: also I see some packages have autowrap.lisp and tried to put the paths were it should find the .h, but nope
2020-03-02T20:00:26Z vms14: I try to use cl-sdl2 or cl-opengl or whatever it's similar, but I'm not able to load them with quicklisp because they assume linux paths and nope
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2020-03-02T20:03:45Z vms14: https://termbin.com/j2mi
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2020-03-02T20:04:56Z vms14: xD this one no
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2020-03-02T20:06:54Z vms14: https://termbin.com/bg5o
2020-03-02T20:06:54Z vms14:  
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2020-03-02T20:09:43Z phoe: luis: maybe you could answer that one
2020-03-02T20:10:10Z phoe: the only thing I was able to find was a CFFI bug that turned out to be a CFFI feature
2020-03-02T20:10:23Z phoe: I need to go to sleep now to avoid creating more useless work for others
2020-03-02T20:11:37Z vms14: I suppose I have to study about cffi
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2020-03-02T20:22:05Z luis: phoe: sure. vms14, what are you trying to do?
2020-03-02T20:22:26Z phoe: vms14: I assume trying to load a library on a non-Linux non-macOS unixlike OS
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2020-03-02T20:22:39Z phoe: where default library paths are different
2020-03-02T20:25:23Z luis: Usually, the Lisp invokes the OS's linker which is then in charge of finding the library
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2020-03-02T20:52:28Z vms14: sorry I was afk
2020-03-02T20:52:32Z vms14: it's netbsd
2020-03-02T20:53:00Z vms14: and netbsd puts installed stuff in /usr/pkg/
2020-03-02T20:53:13Z vms14: the only stuff I have no troubles with, it's clx and sqlite
2020-03-02T20:53:23Z vms14: sqlite comes by default so it's installed in /usr/
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2020-03-02T21:13:04Z luis: vms14: see the "Finding objects" section https://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?ld.elf_so+1+NetBSD-current
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2020-03-02T21:15:58Z vms14: thanks luis
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2020-03-02T21:20:40Z vms14: luis :O seems to work
2020-03-02T21:21:05Z vms14: thanks so much, I was stuck with this with most of libraries, and thought I had to configure stuff in the lisp files
2020-03-02T21:21:17Z vms14: :D
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2020-03-02T21:22:10Z vms14:  opengl could be loaded with quicklisp
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2020-03-02T21:22:22Z vms14: sdl2 no because it's missing c2ffi
2020-03-02T21:22:34Z vms14:  Couldn't execute "c2ffi": No such file or directory
2020-03-02T21:22:47Z vms14: but thanks you so much, I guess now much more libraries will work
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2020-03-02T21:26:11Z luis: vms14: 👍
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2020-03-02T21:28:46Z vms14: https://termbin.com/l5em
2020-03-02T21:29:19Z vms14: caught ERROR:; (during macroexpansion of (AUTOWRAP:C-INCLUDE '(SDL2 AUTOWRAP-SPEC ...) ...));   Couldn't execute "c2ffi": No such file or directory
2020-03-02T21:29:48Z vms14: oh, I have no clang, so it's normal xD
2020-03-02T21:30:50Z luis: vms14: I've got a 386 with NetBSD over there, but I haven't booted it in two decades.
2020-03-02T21:31:07Z vms14: :O netbsd is nice
2020-03-02T21:31:13Z vms14: specially if the hardware sucks
2020-03-02T21:31:46Z luis: I upgraded it to 8 MB of RAM at some point.
2020-03-02T21:32:18Z vms14: it seems there is no c2ffi package for netbsd
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2020-03-02T22:35:29Z jmercouris: anyone know of a CL text to speech engine?
2020-03-02T22:35:41Z jmercouris: It doesn't have to be purely in CL, it can call out to some OS specific system, just looking for a wrapper
2020-03-02T22:37:25Z Shinmera: Google translate has a simple API you can make an HTTP request to that'll return an mp3 file.
2020-03-02T22:38:14Z Shinmera: Not great if you need it to be private or offline, but probably the easiest otherwise.
2020-03-02T22:38:43Z Balooga: https://simulationcorner.net/index.php?page=sam
2020-03-02T22:39:39Z Balooga: Wrap that perhaps? I loved SAM on my C64
2020-03-02T22:40:48Z jmercouris: Looking for offline, I know on macos I can call "say", not sure what to do on Linux, maybe there is an equivalent
2020-03-02T22:40:58Z jmercouris: just trying to make Next accessible
2020-03-02T22:41:02Z jmercouris: for the visually impaired
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2020-03-02T22:51:59Z no-defun-allowed: espeak is quite common, though it sounds pretty robotic.
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2020-03-02T22:58:40Z jmercouris: OK, thank you
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2020-03-02T23:19:12Z pjb: Why does this jmercouris guy always log out before getting an answer?
2020-03-02T23:19:16Z pjb: (swank:eval-in-emacs '(speak "Hello"))
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2020-03-02T23:50:26Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: 00:19 < pjb> Why does this jmercouris guy always log out before getting an answer?
2020-03-02T23:50:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-03-02T23:50:29Z phoe: perhaps he will answer
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2020-03-03T02:14:29Z Josh_2: Is there an implementation of noiseprotocol in CL anywhere?
2020-03-03T02:17:53Z Josh_2: well Ironclad has Curve25519 support so I can probably write a library myself :)
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2020-03-03T05:09:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-03T05:10:43Z loke``: Hello beach!
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2020-03-03T07:17:01Z leo`: hello
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2020-03-03T07:18:26Z pjb: hello
2020-03-03T07:20:15Z beach: Hello leo`.
2020-03-03T07:20:18Z karlosz: hi folks
2020-03-03T07:20:23Z beach: Hey karlosz.
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2020-03-03T07:24:56Z beach: leo`: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2020-03-03T07:26:51Z HiRE: I've read PCL and I enjoyed it...however I am now looking for something a little more hands on. I feel like PCL threw the kitchen sink at me and now I have the tools but no idea how to practice them
2020-03-03T07:26:56Z HiRE: are there good supplementary books to PCL?
2020-03-03T07:27:22Z Shinmera: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming is one
2020-03-03T07:27:32Z beach: minion: Please tell HiRE about PAIP.
2020-03-03T07:27:32Z minion: HiRE: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-03-03T07:27:34Z Shinmera: Other than that, just.. you know, do things.
2020-03-03T07:28:12Z HiRE: oh neat. Yeah I feel like PCL got me most of the way here but the whole kitchen sink and stuff
2020-03-03T07:28:21Z HiRE: was just looking for more ways to branch out
2020-03-03T07:28:39Z HiRE: I've read a lot of stuff about CLOS being great but often overkill for most things and im having trouble deprogramming OOP from my  brain
2020-03-03T07:28:44Z beach: HiRE: Start a project or get involved in an existing one.
2020-03-03T07:29:07Z beach: HiRE: CLOS is definitely not overkill.
2020-03-03T07:29:45Z HiRE: thats why im asking for more books - for example I'd like to implement a bunch of stuff in computational geometry. It's my specialization in my PhD
2020-03-03T07:29:52Z HiRE: however having been poisoned by java for years
2020-03-03T07:29:58Z HiRE: Im just staring at a blank screen
2020-03-03T07:30:10Z HiRE: figured when that happens I need to spend more time learning the proper way to think lispy
2020-03-03T07:30:13Z HiRE: before being so ambitious
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2020-03-03T07:31:59Z beach: I don't know whether there is a Common Lisp library for computational geometry, but it would be good to have one.
2020-03-03T07:32:24Z beach: HiRE: Where did you get your PhD?
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2020-03-03T07:35:10Z shka_: good day!
2020-03-03T07:35:23Z beach: Hello shka_.
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2020-03-03T07:38:20Z HiRE: beach, working on it - currently in my 2nd semester
2020-03-03T07:38:22Z HiRE: im out of UNLV
2020-03-03T07:39:02Z beach: I see.  Do you know my friend Subhash Suri?
2020-03-03T07:39:25Z HiRE: the name sounds familiar but I doubt Ive met them
2020-03-03T07:39:37Z beach: OK.
2020-03-03T07:39:54Z HiRE: I'd be happy to contribute a computational geometry library to the lisp universe
2020-03-03T07:39:59Z HiRE: just gotta...you know get good enough to write one
2020-03-03T07:40:07Z beach: Of course.
2020-03-03T07:40:10Z HiRE: I havent'felt so overwhelmed in a long time. It's a nice feeling but uncomfortable
2020-03-03T07:40:21Z HiRE: like learning the first language I ever learned.
2020-03-03T07:41:11Z HiRE: I can see the real power of lisp just from what I've done in PCL - the trick now is to be able to execute on that power. I suppose thats just practice.
2020-03-03T07:41:14Z HiRE: lots and lots of it.
2020-03-03T07:41:25Z beach: Indeed.
2020-03-03T07:41:30Z Shinmera: Yep.
2020-03-03T07:41:34Z beach: And get feedback on your code.
2020-03-03T07:41:46Z Shinmera: The first library I ever wrote is still useful today! So I'd say just go for it.
2020-03-03T07:42:05Z Shinmera: It's also the first thing I did after PCL, though I did have to rewrite it some months later.
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2020-03-03T07:42:55Z HiRE: yep, the whole impetus for running back here for help is that I dont really know how to structure a red black tree right in a lispy way
2020-03-03T07:43:05Z HiRE: would you use CLOS to contain all the methods?
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2020-03-03T07:43:57Z trittweiler: It's not Java. Objects do not contain methods. :)
2020-03-03T07:44:25Z aeth: CLOS is multiple dispatch so that doesn't make sense, unlike in most OOP languages.
2020-03-03T07:44:30Z HiRE: right...sorry the deprogramming is going to take time
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2020-03-03T07:45:57Z trittweiler: You could have generic functions LEFT-NODE, RIGHT-NODE. But in this case, I would probably just use functions. Except if you have a good idea on in what way you want things to be extensible
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2020-03-03T07:47:05Z HiRE: ah ok. I will go back and review PCL's tutorial on CLOS again so I can fully grasp multiple dispatch
2020-03-03T07:47:18Z HiRE: I was thinking of just using methods as well
2020-03-03T07:47:44Z Josh_2: you can
2020-03-03T07:48:47Z loke``: HiRE: I have implemented the only red-black tree implementqtion on Common Lisp that works.
2020-03-03T07:48:59Z loke``: ALl the other I've tried loses data in certain edge-cases
2020-03-03T07:49:08Z HiRE: thats a bold statement :P
2020-03-03T07:49:23Z HiRE: I suppose I have my work cut out for me then
2020-03-03T07:49:33Z loke``: HiRE: Fair enough. rbtrees are notoriously difficult to get right. But I have tested it extensively.
2020-03-03T07:49:49Z loke``: And all others (three other versions if I'm not mistaken) have failed.
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2020-03-03T07:50:17Z HiRE: yeah I chose it arbitrarily. For maintaining sweepline state you generally need a height balanced tree and rbtrees are just convenient in the literature
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2020-03-03T07:50:28Z loke``: And I ran a special version that _also_ stored the data in a linked list in parallel and double-checked the result on every acess and ran this debug/slow version in production for months without errors.
2020-03-03T07:50:46Z loke``: Here is my implementation: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers/blob/master/src/rbtree.lisp
2020-03-03T07:50:51Z loke``: It's based ont he reference C implementation.
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2020-03-03T07:52:01Z loke``: Please don't try to reimplement it yourself. It _will_ fail. An rbtree will work 99.999% of times if you get a single rotation wrong, until it doesn't, and you lose data.
2020-03-03T07:52:21Z HiRE: yeah, I may borrow your rbtree or use a 2-3 tree or something instead
2020-03-03T07:52:29Z HiRE: im not trying to overcomplicate finding line intersections
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2020-03-03T07:52:31Z loke``: Please go ahead.
2020-03-03T07:52:38Z HiRE: O(logn) is really all I care about
2020-03-03T07:52:41Z loke``: rbtrees are amazing when they work :-)
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2020-03-03T07:53:53Z Josh_2: beach: how's this https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-fuzzer/blob/master/src/string-generation.lisp
2020-03-03T07:54:04Z Josh_2: short and sweet, not like me xD
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2020-03-03T07:59:16Z aeth: I personally only use methods over functions when either generic dispatch is needed or :after/:before/:around is needed.
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2020-03-03T07:59:51Z Josh_2: after before and around are very useful
2020-03-03T08:00:03Z beach: Josh_2: Is that your code?
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2020-03-03T08:04:16Z Josh_2: yes
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2020-03-03T08:08:47Z beach: Josh_2: Are you showing it in order to get feedback?
2020-03-03T08:09:15Z beach: Somehow, I think that "Global Notice" is fake.
2020-03-03T08:09:23Z pjb: :-)
2020-03-03T08:09:39Z p_l has set mode +b *!*@39.188.250.31
2020-03-03T08:09:43Z shka_: lol
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2020-03-03T08:11:26Z Josh_2: beach: yes :P
2020-03-03T08:11:39Z p_l: miiight get us some respite
2020-03-03T08:12:10Z beach: Josh_2: Why is there a blank line between some top-level definitions and not others?
2020-03-03T08:12:47Z Josh_2: I don't know
2020-03-03T08:12:49Z beach: And why do you select a random number in the interval [0,25[ when there are 26 letters?
2020-03-03T08:14:10Z Josh_2: because 25 gets zz
2020-03-03T08:14:11Z Josh_2: z*
2020-03-03T08:14:45Z aeth: There should always be a blank line between defines at the top level unless they're one liners that make sense together, which is more of a DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER/DEFCONSTANT thing
2020-03-03T08:14:59Z beach: Josh_2: I don't understand.
2020-03-03T08:15:04Z Josh_2: oops
2020-03-03T08:15:05Z Josh_2: I do
2020-03-03T08:15:11Z Josh_2: random should be 26
2020-03-03T08:15:45Z aeth: it's a common bug
2020-03-03T08:16:33Z Josh_2: Fixed that :P
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2020-03-03T08:19:17Z beach: Josh_2: I think the error in x..n is wrong.
2020-03-03T08:19:35Z beach: Plus n..x and x..n look very similar.  It ought to be possible to factor the code.
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2020-03-03T08:20:21Z White_Flame: yeah, calculate a stepping of -1 or +1 first, and use it in the loop
2020-03-03T08:20:41Z White_Flame: plus the names don't really tell you which is which
2020-03-03T08:20:46Z White_Flame: *names of the functinos
2020-03-03T08:21:08Z beach: Josh_2: With (reduce #'append...) you might want to do :from-end t as well.
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2020-03-03T08:21:22Z beach: Not that it matters much here probably, but still.
2020-03-03T08:23:42Z Josh_2: What difference does adding :from-end make?
2020-03-03T08:23:50Z Josh_2: It produces the same result
2020-03-03T08:23:59Z beach: It turns a quadratic algorithm into a linear one.
2020-03-03T08:25:14Z Josh_2: White_Flame: what do you mean with -1 +1 in the loop?
2020-03-03T08:25:55Z Josh_2: beach: I do not know what you mean by that :O
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2020-03-03T08:27:26Z beach: Josh_2: Try this: (defparameter *l* (make-list 10000 :initial-element '(a b))) then (time (length (reduce #'append *l*))) and (time (reduce #'append *l* :from-end t))
2020-03-03T08:28:29Z beach: Do you see a difference?
2020-03-03T08:28:43Z Josh_2: Yes, a substantial one
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2020-03-03T08:29:36Z beach: Look also at the amount of memory allocated in the two cases.
2020-03-03T08:29:43Z White_Flame: Josh_2: (loop for x = start then (+ x delta) collect x until (= x end))
2020-03-03T08:30:14Z White_Flame: the BY clause doesn't work for both positive & negative, unfortunately
2020-03-03T08:30:54Z White_Flame: but the way I pasted is agnostic to the direction of the iteration.  You just need to figure if delta should be +1 or -1
2020-03-03T08:30:55Z Josh_2: beach: yes I see, quite a difference
2020-03-03T08:31:17Z White_Flame: and probably be more defensive for edge cases
2020-03-03T08:31:34Z Josh_2: White_Flame: are you talking about x..n and n..x?
2020-03-03T08:31:37Z White_Flame: yes
2020-03-03T08:31:45Z Josh_2: I changed those names
2020-03-03T08:31:53Z Josh_2: Much more descriptive now :P
2020-03-03T08:32:07Z Josh_2: but why would I change the loop, it works just fine
2020-03-03T08:32:24Z White_Flame: just going on what beach said abotu not needing to duplicate 99% of the code across 2 functions
2020-03-03T08:32:36Z Josh_2: oh right
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2020-03-03T08:35:43Z Josh_2: I'm going to keep those functions as is, the error check is different so I'm only really repeating 1 line ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-03-03T08:36:00Z Josh_2: Thanks for taking the time White_Flame beach :)
2020-03-03T08:36:11Z beach: Josh_2: So that little experiment shows why you should use :from-end t with (reduce #'append...).
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2020-03-03T08:38:02Z Josh_2: Yes :P
2020-03-03T08:38:25Z beach: Now you just need to understand why. :)
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2020-03-03T08:39:21Z Josh_2: That's for tomorrow after sleep :P
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2020-03-03T09:21:13Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, didn't know that about (reduce #'append ...). Very clever.
2020-03-03T09:21:36Z beach: It is obvious when you think about it.
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2020-03-03T09:24:55Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely (and maybe with APPEND or a wrapper traced), but I'll leave Josh_2 to figure it out.
2020-03-03T09:25:50Z beach: If you know how REDUCE and APPEND both work, the result is clear.
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2020-03-03T10:13:09Z p_l: ... on days like that, I'm tempted to hack back on each IP, find the worm, trace back to it's C2 and do impolite things :|
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2020-03-03T10:13:40Z phoe: p_l: we need +r on the channel.
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2020-03-03T10:14:00Z phoe: It is a breaking change, but otherwise we're not going to make it.
2020-03-03T10:14:26Z phoe: Registering Freenode accounts is going to at least slow the spambots down.
2020-03-03T10:14:55Z _death: trivial-spam-prevention
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2020-03-03T10:15:21Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | TEMPORARY REGISTRATION REQUIREMENT IN EFFECT | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
2020-03-03T10:15:36Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@111.30.91.10
2020-03-03T10:15:37Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@236-230-121-168.internet58.com.br
2020-03-03T10:15:39Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@116.225.38.167
2020-03-03T10:15:40Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@223.73.61.1
2020-03-03T10:15:41Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@113.116.21.248
2020-03-03T10:15:42Z p_l has set mode -b *!*@39.188.250.31
2020-03-03T10:16:15Z p_l: phoe: I happen to agree :/
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2020-03-03T10:18:17Z phoe: minion: hello
2020-03-03T10:18:17Z minion: what's up?
2020-03-03T10:18:22Z phoe: Colleen: hello
2020-03-03T10:18:23Z Colleen: Hi!
2020-03-03T10:18:31Z phoe: the bots are still around, good
2020-03-03T10:18:50Z Shinmera: Setting +r doesn't kick unregs that are already in the channel, anyway
2020-03-03T10:18:55Z p_l: do we have any good option for helping people without account, other than /invite?
2020-03-03T10:19:13Z p_l: Shinmera: good to know, never tested that though I think we ran +r for some time?
2020-03-03T10:19:44Z p_l: I think back when there was a big porn spam campaign, before I implemented the rather weird mute masks
2020-03-03T10:21:47Z jackdaniel: wait what? /me disconnects and joines the quakenet :)
2020-03-03T10:21:49Z phoe: Shinmera: oh! that's good
2020-03-03T10:22:42Z phoe: p_l: so maybe we could set +m instead, since it prevents spamposts instead
2020-03-03T10:23:06Z ChanServ has set mode +v jackdaniel
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2020-03-03T10:24:20Z phoe: wait though... huh
2020-03-03T10:24:32Z p_l: phoe: +m silences everyone not voiced, unless I could swing it through extban syntax
2020-03-03T10:24:52Z phoe: wish there was a mode that only let registered users speak
2020-03-03T10:24:53Z p_l: a channel with only ops is a sad channel
2020-03-03T10:25:08Z phoe: but everyone read the channel
2020-03-03T10:26:01Z p_l: ok, testing
2020-03-03T10:27:39Z p_l: here goes nothing
2020-03-03T10:27:41Z p_l has set mode +m
2020-03-03T10:28:14Z p_l has set mode -r
2020-03-03T10:28:35Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l
2020-03-03T10:28:49Z jackdaniel: hardly useful, unless its only two ops and me are going to talk ,p
2020-03-03T10:29:17Z jackdaniel: +r seems better (and possible to work out by registering an account)
2020-03-03T10:30:15Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2020-03-03T10:30:19Z jackdaniel: I like it, nobody disagrees ,-)
2020-03-03T10:30:34Z p_l: I have a strange suspicion that it muted everyone instead of just unregistered
2020-03-03T10:30:55Z jackdaniel: that's how +m does afaik (all except +v/+h/+o are muted)
2020-03-03T10:31:14Z p_l: jackdaniel: it's supposed to work with extbans
2020-03-03T10:31:24Z p_l has set mode -m
2020-03-03T10:31:27Z p_l has set mode +r
2020-03-03T10:32:43Z p_l: so a +m $-a is supposed to mute only unregistered
2020-03-03T10:33:23Z phoe: test
2020-03-03T10:33:26Z p_l: wildcards worked in the past
2020-03-03T10:33:41Z phoe: I am registered, and I can talk
2020-03-03T10:33:42Z p_l: phoe: too late, went back to +r
2020-03-03T10:33:46Z phoe: oh, okay
2020-03-03T10:34:05Z p_l: cause I could only see jackdaniel talking while I was de-oped
2020-03-03T10:35:06Z eeeeeta: you mean +q $~a, surely
2020-03-03T10:36:04Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2020-03-03T10:36:06Z p_l: eeeeeta: yeah, just found it
2020-03-03T10:36:10Z jackdaniel has set mode -r
2020-03-03T10:36:14Z p_l: it's been years since I did that
2020-03-03T10:36:15Z jackdaniel has set mode +q $~a
2020-03-03T10:36:24Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
2020-03-03T10:36:25Z eeeeeta: and use +z to direct messages to ops I think
2020-03-03T10:36:34Z ChanServ has set mode -v jackdaniel
2020-03-03T10:36:37Z jackdaniel: voila
2020-03-03T10:36:40Z p_l: ops see quieted users anyway, iirc
2020-03-03T10:37:57Z Shinmera: IRC modes are about the most obscure way to handle permissions
2020-03-03T10:38:13Z Shinmera: or incomprehensible, rather
2020-03-03T10:38:24Z jackdaniel hints at chmod 400 ←
2020-03-03T10:38:44Z jackdaniel: give me four hundred permissions!
2020-03-03T10:39:11Z p_l: octal syntax for permissions is pretty comprehensible - when the environment is used to octal
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2020-03-03T10:39:29Z jackdaniel: everything is comprehensible when you get used to it
2020-03-03T10:39:42Z jackdaniel: (of course not everything everything, but you know what I mean)
2020-03-03T10:40:34Z p_l: octal is a historic accident due to high usage of octal for bitmasks that was well understood among users at the time
2020-03-03T10:41:25Z p_l: with systems that arrived appropriately later, there's no octal masks in use (i.e. NT)
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2020-03-03T10:50:40Z lieven: nice progression in programming languages too. in MacLisp the default read base is 8, in C only for numbers starting with 0.
2020-03-03T10:54:16Z p_l: when word sizes were divisible by 3, it was very simple to use octal
2020-03-03T10:54:39Z p_l: to be honest, hexadecimal to me is much less readable when it comes to understanding a bitmask
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2020-03-03T10:55:53Z no-defun-allowed: In discrete mathematics today, the lecturer stepped us through octal→binary conversion. That was quite surreal.
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2020-03-03T10:59:36Z lieven: it is nice for bit twiddling code that one's complement machines are dead so you can assume one standard representation
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2020-03-03T11:03:36Z no-defun-allowed: Not x86? That has lots of prefixes.
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2020-03-03T11:05:30Z _death: did you know? the x86 is an octal machine
2020-03-03T11:05:59Z _death: http://www.dabo.de/ccc99/www.camp.ccc.de/radio/help.txt
2020-03-03T11:06:58Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it really likes its groups of 8 too.
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2020-03-03T12:01:54Z vidak`: just learned how to start SBCL, and then connect successfully to it in EMACS SLIME, all in the context of using croatoan, the common lisp library for binding to ncurses
2020-03-03T12:02:12Z vidak`: i can finally breathe a sigh of relief: i can have unbuffered terminal input :3
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2020-03-03T12:41:40Z jmercouris: what is the time complexity of SORT?
2020-03-03T12:41:40Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: 00:19 < pjb> Why does this jmercouris guy always log out before getting an answer?
2020-03-03T12:42:49Z jmercouris: lol
2020-03-03T12:42:58Z jmercouris: I don't log out on purpose, my IRC client crashes frequently :-D
2020-03-03T12:43:25Z jmercouris: I'm using Circe, and it seems to disconnect on Emacs 27
2020-03-03T12:44:21Z jackdaniel: it is not defined what is its time complexity, it may be a bubblesort for what it's worth ,)
2020-03-03T12:44:27Z jackdaniel: usually it is a quicksort though
2020-03-03T12:44:51Z jmercouris: OK, thank you
2020-03-03T12:45:11Z jackdaniel: so n² in a nasty case, down to n*log(n)
2020-03-03T12:45:44Z jackdaniel: and since you ask about time, the time unit is nano-lispconds
2020-03-03T12:45:50Z jmercouris: 11
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2020-03-03T13:00:49Z beach: jmercouris: Are you sorting a list or a vector?
2020-03-03T13:00:50Z _death: on sbcl, it appears to be merge sort for lists and heapsort for vectors
2020-03-03T13:01:01Z jmercouris: A list
2020-03-03T13:01:15Z jmercouris: beach: a list, I was just curious, :-)
2020-03-03T13:01:22Z beach: Then, with merge sort, it is O(n log n).
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2020-03-03T13:07:27Z Posterdati: hi
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2020-03-03T13:07:53Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
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2020-03-03T13:10:47Z jdz: jmercouris: I bet it's not Circe that crashes (if anything it would be Emacs crashing).  Maybe instead of "crashes" you mean loses connection, in which case I'd rather blame "gnutls".
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2020-03-03T13:38:13Z flip214: Are there any efforts (past or current) to get bignums working in https://github.com/takagi/cl-cuda ?
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2020-03-03T13:44:19Z Bike: like how, working with vectors of fixnums and translating them to/from bignums when you pass into/out of cuda?
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2020-03-03T13:51:02Z flip214: yeah, for example... I'd like to offload some bignum calculations
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2020-03-03T14:00:20Z luis: Does anyone use ASDF with logical pathnames? I'd like to set up my source like SBCL's SYS:SRC;**;*.* but ASDF turns them into physical pathnames ASAP.
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2020-03-03T14:15:33Z Shinmera: luis: I asked about that for portacle. If I remember correctly it's not really possible.
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2020-03-03T14:23:59Z luis: That and logical pathnames being restricted to a-z, digits and hyphen is a bit of a shame.
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2020-03-03T14:25:32Z jackdaniel: I always thought, that if I have enough time some day I would want to propose a CDR which extends logical pathname specification and clarifies some undefined behaviors
2020-03-03T14:25:54Z jackdaniel: that and an in-image virtual filesystem
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2020-03-03T14:26:47Z jackdaniel: (extensible one, so i.e a programmer could implement a few methods and voila, their package has a file interface ,)
2020-03-03T14:27:15Z p_l: unfortunately, while pathnames themselves are maximal implementation of pathnames, logical pathnames are closer to the minimum side :/
2020-03-03T14:27:24Z p_l: despite it not being necessary
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2020-03-03T14:33:44Z Shinmera: luis: logical pathnames being forced to one version of case really makes them impossible to use generally.
2020-03-03T14:34:54Z Shinmera: I think a library to replace pathnames with a more useful system (using modern day assumptions) would be great.
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2020-03-03T14:46:18Z p_l: Just something that would support full scope of pathnames would be good
2020-03-03T14:48:45Z luis: The case insensitivity doesn't bother me too much because I have to live with Windows anyway.
2020-03-03T14:49:05Z edgar-rft: AFAIK UIOP (part of ASDF) was meant as an attempt to replace logical pathnames
2020-03-03T14:52:39Z luis: edgar-rft: how so?
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2020-03-03T15:10:28Z Shinmera: luis: Well it makes it impossible to use on linux if you have a directory that's not lowercase
2020-03-03T15:13:12Z luis: Shinmera: yeah, that's terrible.
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2020-03-03T15:17:53Z p_l: luis: beware case-sensitive windows installs
2020-03-03T15:18:00Z p_l: Yes, they exist
2020-03-03T15:22:02Z p_l: Also, I wonder how much code would break if I made a lisp implementation faithfully represent full NT pathnames...
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2020-03-03T15:24:15Z p_l: (all ANSI CL pathname components are present on Windows)
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2020-03-03T15:46:49Z didi: Using SLIME and a fresh SBLC instance, why does C-c C-l work for loading a file with `require' forms but C-c C-k complain about non designated packages?
2020-03-03T15:47:14Z didi: s/SBLC/SBCL
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2020-03-03T15:58:34Z _death: the require is evaluated during load time, but not during compile-time (you could use eval-when to make it work)
2020-03-03T15:58:50Z didi: _death: Thank you.
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2020-03-03T16:20:22Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: there's IOlib if you want better pathnames
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2020-03-03T16:21:54Z Shinmera: It carries too much other baggage and depends on a C library.
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2020-03-03T17:47:35Z didi: So I read <https://mstmetent.blogspot.com/2020/02/block-compilation-fresh-in-sbcl-202.html> and wondered: Is CMUCL still around?
2020-03-03T17:51:05Z Bike: https://www.cons.org/cmucl/ last snapshot back in june, so sure.
2020-03-03T17:51:45Z didi: Bike: Interesting, thanks.
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2020-03-03T18:12:10Z phoe: actually
2020-03-03T18:12:11Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/cmucl/cmucl/blob/master/src/general-info/release-21e.md
2020-03-03T18:12:17Z phoe: >  Raymond Toy authored 2 weeks ago
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2020-03-03T19:50:01Z Cymew: It used to be my main lisp, and I liked it quite a bit. Kind of fun to hear it mentioned again.
2020-03-03T19:51:15Z dlowe: Shinmera: depending on a C library is the price of living on a C-hosted environment
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2020-03-03T19:52:07Z jackdaniel: nerverless many libraries work without any changes on mezzano, unless they depend on ffi
2020-03-03T19:52:42Z jackdaniel: (as an example of benefits from using "pure" common lisp -- I personaly have no problem with well written bindings)
2020-03-03T19:53:05Z dlowe: I can imagine if a mezzano backend were written for iolib, libfixposix wouldn't be an issue :p
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2020-03-03T19:59:09Z Shinmera: dlowe: It's very possible to eliminate such dependencies.
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2020-03-03T20:05:16Z p_l: we could also encourage implementations to provide better own abstractions to be used by things like IOlib
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2020-03-03T20:23:46Z fe[nl]ix: Shinmera: the C library is pretty much necessary, unless you can convince implementors to include POSIX FFI bindings
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2020-03-03T20:24:45Z dlowe: I think Shinmera is suggesting going straight to kernel syscalls
2020-03-03T20:25:11Z fe[nl]ix: that works only on Linux
2020-03-03T20:25:36Z fe[nl]ix: all other operating systems place the ABI compatibility boundary in the libc
2020-03-03T20:25:48Z fe[nl]ix: including BSDs, OSX, Windows
2020-03-03T20:25:48Z Shinmera: I am suggesting not using a library that requires C stuff for something that's just a new pathname implementation.
2020-03-03T20:26:14Z fe[nl]ix: you need C stuff to access the filesystem
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2020-03-03T20:26:43Z fe[nl]ix: including some function-like accessors which are allowed by POSIX to be defined as C macros
2020-03-03T20:26:56Z fe[nl]ix: so you can't access them using FFI unless there's a wrapper
2020-03-03T20:27:31Z p_l: you don't need C except for grovelling the costants on Windows
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2020-03-03T20:28:32Z p_l: as all interface libraries are explicitly language-agnostic (and even if they use C internally, it's fully hidden from you, including lack of linkage to C runtime)
2020-03-03T20:29:44Z fe[nl]ix: you'll have to reimplement S_ISDIR & co.
2020-03-03T20:29:51Z fe[nl]ix: which is doable just a lot of maintenance
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2020-03-03T20:32:51Z p_l: fortunately S_ISDIR isn't part of the API
2020-03-03T20:33:12Z p_l: there's a bitmask field
2020-03-03T20:33:17Z p_l: but no macros
2020-03-03T20:33:47Z p_l: so you test a bitmask against the value of FILE_ATTRIBUTE_DIRECTORY
2020-03-03T20:35:35Z p_l: so it's a bit saner than going through libc
2020-03-03T20:36:22Z pjb: p_l: but the value of S_ISDIR is C implementation dependendant!  How do you find it?
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2020-03-03T20:36:35Z pjb: (without relying on a C compiler on a given target).
2020-03-03T20:36:39Z jackdaniel: given that these operating systems all have libc which gives you necessary functionality, and that it is possible o have an uniform interface to it, I'd say that it is saner to have such interface
2020-03-03T20:37:08Z p_l: jackdaniel: the problem is that the libc might not be first class API on some platforms
2020-03-03T20:37:08Z pjb: What's documented, on the other hand, is the syscall API of the kernel…
2020-03-03T20:37:17Z pjb: So instead of using libc, write your own libcl.
2020-03-03T20:37:31Z pjb: (in CL, you just need a way to syscall).
2020-03-03T20:37:38Z p_l: arguably, the only one major platform that has libc as second-class citizen is Windows
2020-03-03T20:37:42Z p_l: but it's a pretty big platform
2020-03-03T20:37:56Z p_l: I have no idea on how the API interface goes with libSystem.dyld on OSX
2020-03-03T20:38:05Z pjb: p_l: even amongst C programmers, there's a movement to avoid libc, and use linux syscalls directly!
2020-03-03T20:38:25Z p_l: but it's OSFMK derived, so probably libSystem is full of libc-isms
2020-03-03T20:38:34Z pjb: p_l: it's more fun, since it's not a unix system, under, but a Mach OS.  So you don't syscall, you send messages to the microkernel :-)
2020-03-03T20:38:53Z p_l: pjb: and on Windows, libc is second class, limited API
2020-03-03T20:39:29Z pjb: p_l: Also, libc ≠ POSIX.
2020-03-03T20:39:43Z p_l: that too, as well
2020-03-03T20:39:59Z Odin-: "Going the easy way around isn't pure enough, so let's do tons of difficult work to try and keep up with outside systems that are often a very swiftly moving target!"
2020-03-03T20:40:19Z pjb: So, basically CL implementations would have to support 3 kernels, Mach, MS-Windows-NT, and Linux.
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2020-03-03T20:40:36Z Odin- glances nervously in the direction of the BSDs.
2020-03-03T20:40:39Z fe[nl]ix: BSD developers consider libc as the ABI so they have in the past removed syscalls and reimplementing libc functions
2020-03-03T20:40:55Z p_l: though I'm pretty sure POSIX specifies a libc that contains certain interfaces (mostly compatible with ANSI/ISO), another set of "syscalls" which might be actually implemented by another library (passing to message passing interfaces)
2020-03-03T20:41:25Z pjb: yes, POSIX doesn't impose an architecture.  It can be all libraries.
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2020-03-03T20:41:34Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: from my understanding, POSIX spec doesn't require that various low-level interfaces are "syscalls", it can be a library
2020-03-03T20:41:41Z Odin-: POSIX is defined in terms of a C interface, yes.
2020-03-03T20:42:01Z p_l: and I'm pretty sure someone even made one for linux (or maybe some other OS) in the form of "libsyscall" or something like that
2020-03-03T20:42:05Z pjb: Odin-: more or less. We could define in a chapter of POSIX a CL API.
2020-03-03T20:42:19Z p_l: Odin-: there's also FORTRAN API, iirc
2020-03-03T20:42:19Z Odin-: It then also defines a bunch of command line utilities on top of that.
2020-03-03T20:42:56Z p_l: anyway, going through libc on Windows means you are relegated to second class citizen, and in fact might actually mean a more moving target
2020-03-03T20:42:57Z jackdaniel: in other words, supporting posix is a matter of having ffi wrapper, what's precisely what IOlib does ;) I'd file a bug on Windows bugtracker and call it a day, i.e "[bug][critical] Windows is not a real POSIX" ;)
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2020-03-03T20:43:30Z pjb: On the other hand, this is what makes the success of unix (POSIX) systems, the command line user interface.  Other systems were way more inconvenient to use.  You couldn't compile and run programs like that, willy-nilly…
2020-03-03T20:43:40Z jackdaniel: since windows eats linux (they even linux working there), it won't be a problem
2020-03-03T20:43:59Z jackdaniel: even have*
2020-03-03T20:44:09Z pjb: It was more like iOS, where you needed sysadmins to install the commands for you, with authorisations, etc (not code signatures at the time, but it was as inconvenient).
2020-03-03T20:44:16Z p_l: jackdaniel: if you actually managed to get deep enough to put a bug on internal bugtracker, and someone with a grey enough beard read it, you might end up with a long rant on why POSIX interfaces sucks :P
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2020-03-03T20:44:30Z Odin-: pjb, p_l: Dunno, at least some of the relevant standards include C header snippets as the definitive material.
2020-03-03T20:44:52Z Odin-: POSIX is crap.
2020-03-03T20:44:54Z Odin-: So is C.
2020-03-03T20:44:56Z jackdaniel: p_l: that's not my point. either way, since we talk about outstanding operating systems, here is windows93: http://www.windows93.net/ and I'll stop offtopic on my part
2020-03-03T20:45:14Z pjb: Odin-: anyways, we should aim higher, with a lispOS…
2020-03-03T20:45:32Z Odin-: pjb: Yes, but it's still going to be useful to run a Lisp on those other OSes.
2020-03-03T20:45:43Z Odin-: And those might not always be pure Lisp all the way down.
2020-03-03T20:46:13Z Odin- goes to get his food.
2020-03-03T20:46:24Z fe[nl]ix: I consider win32.dll to be the equivalent of "libc" for all intents and purposes
2020-03-03T20:46:59Z fe[nl]ix: direct syscalls is nice but in practice it would only work on Linux
2020-03-03T20:47:13Z pjb: Odin-: we can have lisp implementations targetting POSIX systems indeed.  ecl is more like that than other implementations.  We could have CL implementation to produce DLLs and shared libraries usable from C.
2020-03-03T20:47:39Z jackdaniel: libecl.so and libecl.dll are usable from C
2020-03-03T20:48:07Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that they would be even usable from sbcl via CFFI :-)
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2020-03-03T20:49:04Z dlowe: Right, so to summarize, POSIX is crap, therefore libfixposix. QED.
2020-03-03T20:49:10Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: OneCore.lib/dll for recent windows
2020-03-03T20:49:38Z pjb: Yep.
2020-03-03T20:52:36Z fe[nl]ix: that said, if SBCL used LLVM, you could have wrappers for C macros that get inlined in Lisp code
2020-03-03T20:52:37Z copec: I like the unix processor model with C. I think it is the lowest common denominator to have totally separate software systems share
2020-03-03T20:53:17Z fe[nl]ix: a bit like Rust and C++ functions can be cross-inlined in the IR
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2020-03-03T20:54:06Z fe[nl]ix: that would be cool and make libfixposix mostly unnecessary
2020-03-03T20:54:08Z copec: It would be nice if there were some type of standard low level data structures that could work between different languages without conversion
2020-03-03T20:54:31Z Odin-: WASM is shooting for something sorta-kinda like that.
2020-03-03T20:54:36Z p_l: copec: VMS and WinNT did that
2020-03-03T20:54:37Z fe[nl]ix: that's what C structs are
2020-03-03T20:54:39Z Odin-: But that's not on-metal.
2020-03-03T20:54:48Z fe[nl]ix: it's just that they are defined in C
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2020-03-03T20:54:56Z copec: I guess in terms of Unix/C, that interface IS C like fe[nl]ix said
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2020-03-03T20:55:10Z p_l: well, WinNT is much more C-like, but a) the interfaces are designed mostly so that you don't need C b) for complex interfaces there's COM
2020-03-03T20:55:37Z Odin- would be delighted if he could compile CL code to run on a microcontroller.
2020-03-03T20:56:26Z copec: I think the best bet for that is to write a cross-compiler in a CL as you dev it
2020-03-03T20:56:27Z jackdaniel: Odin-: subset of it, or a whole thing (eval included)?
2020-03-03T20:56:33Z p_l: depending on size of the microcontroller, you might fit some...
2020-03-03T20:56:37Z fe[nl]ix: I look forward for a libc whose API is defined in some IDL language, which is then translated to various languages (including C headers)
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2020-03-03T20:57:31Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: WinNT is... getting close there? I mean, there's a bunch of stuff which will remain defined through C headers, but all the advanced complex APIs are in IDL (including DirectX, WPF, etc.)
2020-03-03T20:57:32Z Odin-: jackdaniel: I'd be fine with a subset. There's an interpreter for a slightly-off subset that can run on an ATmega328, which is an interesting toy.
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2020-03-03T20:58:03Z fe[nl]ix: I need a C compiler because libc headers are typically a nightmare to parse
2020-03-03T20:58:44Z p_l: yeah, though at least those structs are not going to change on you :V
2020-03-03T20:59:28Z fe[nl]ix: they do change across architecture
2020-03-03T20:59:48Z fe[nl]ix: perhaps we're complaining too much
2020-03-03T21:00:18Z p_l: across architectures, yes. But even then not much, afaik (due to rather specific typing approach in MS source code)
2020-03-03T21:00:21Z fe[nl]ix: Go developers just redefined everything manually
2020-03-03T21:00:23Z ebrasca: copec: I think there is one cros copiler from llvm to cl
2020-03-03T21:00:52Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: scymtym wrote C preprocessor https://github.com/scymtym/language.c on top a grammer I have written in esrap
2020-03-03T21:00:57Z fe[nl]ix: and put the burden of doing that on whoever wanted to port Go to their OS/arch combo
2020-03-03T21:00:58Z jackdaniel: grammar
2020-03-03T21:01:47Z jackdaniel: (which was also cleaned up by him)
2020-03-03T21:03:04Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: Yeah, but Go seems to have a manpower problem on the opposite end of the scale.
2020-03-03T21:03:59Z fe[nl]ix: exactly
2020-03-03T21:04:21Z fe[nl]ix: if you have too many contributors you don't need general solutions
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2020-03-03T21:05:20Z fe[nl]ix: libfixposix can be an annoying requirement but it works very well and it's easy to maintain
2020-03-03T21:06:50Z p_l: Go, most importantly, started with an already ported custom runtime before they wrote first line of compiler
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2020-03-03T21:07:20Z p_l: *then* they slowly rewrote the C parts (that weren't ANSI/ISO C anyway)
2020-03-03T21:07:38Z fe[nl]ix: Well, they ported it from Plan9 to Linux
2020-03-03T21:07:57Z fe[nl]ix: the other operating systems came afterwards
2020-03-03T21:08:13Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: they used a pre-existing ported code, iirc
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2020-03-03T21:08:46Z p_l: 8c as well as Plan9 runtime libs were already ported to Linux, Windows and Mac
2020-03-03T21:09:00Z fe[nl]ix: ah ok
2020-03-03T21:09:20Z p_l: 6c wasn't, but I don't remember if they published a version of it, but then, 6c differences from 8c were... minor
2020-03-03T21:09:41Z p_l: 8 = code for 386-compatible, 6 = code for amd64
2020-03-03T21:11:09Z p_l: ARM was 5, ppc32 was q, ppc64 9, SPARC k, MIPS be v, and MIPS le 0
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2020-03-03T21:12:48Z Odin-: Plan9 was a ... thing.
2020-03-03T21:13:06Z p_l: Octopus was... thingier
2020-03-03T21:13:08Z jackdaniel: I think that this discussion drifted from lisp a while ago
2020-03-03T21:13:14Z jackdaniel: towards #lispcafe :)
2020-03-03T21:13:16Z Odin-: Fair enough.
2020-03-03T21:14:28Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: anyway, they way I see it, perhaps iolib should promote better interfaces to be packaged as part of the implementation, so that libfixposix is needed less (or might be, in fact, embedded in the implementation)
2020-03-03T21:15:17Z p_l: and avoid C runtime interfaces on platforms where they are not, in fact, native
2020-03-03T21:16:22Z dlowe notes that sbcl itself has C parts due exactly to this issue.
2020-03-03T21:16:42Z dlowe: Now using those C parts to expose a full posix interface sounds like a worthy project.
2020-03-03T21:16:53Z dlowe: if the sbcl project would have it
2020-03-03T21:17:53Z jackdaniel: do you mean sb-posix package?
2020-03-03T21:18:49Z dlowe: that's where it would go, sure.  But I mean taking the bits from libfixposix and integrating them so that libfixposix isn't needed.
2020-03-03T21:20:18Z fe[nl]ix: This has been discussed already
2020-03-03T21:20:22Z fe[nl]ix: sb-posix is very high-level and slow
2020-03-03T21:20:48Z fe[nl]ix: it conses a lot because it deals with Lisp objects, path names etc...
2020-03-03T21:21:59Z dlowe: If the implementation were in the C runtime instead, it wouldn't need to be high-level or slow
2020-03-03T21:22:11Z fe[nl]ix: you also need an package with FFI-only functions
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2020-03-03T21:23:42Z fe[nl]ix: anyway, we're talking about standardising a Posix interface
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2020-03-03T21:23:49Z fe[nl]ix: and I'm not going there
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2020-03-03T23:17:59Z jmercouris: optima vs trivia?
2020-03-03T23:18:06Z jmercouris: any reason to prefer one over the other?
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2020-03-03T23:33:17Z phoe: trivia seems faster
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2020-03-03T23:33:22Z phoe: and compatible with optima
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2020-03-03T23:34:22Z loli: trivia is quite nice
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2020-03-03T23:43:16Z jmercouris: OK
2020-03-03T23:43:21Z jmercouris: thanks for opinions
2020-03-03T23:43:27Z jmercouris: I guess trivia it shall stay
2020-03-03T23:43:34Z jmercouris: goodnight everyone
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2020-03-03T23:52:30Z phoe: good night
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2020-03-04T04:37:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-04T05:07:24Z ebrasca: Morning beach
2020-03-04T05:07:28Z ebrasca: Morning splittist
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2020-03-04T05:59:40Z matzy_: i have a dumb question.  is it possible to use hunchentoot as just a simple back-end api that talks to a database and sends json data to a react front-end?
2020-03-04T06:00:20Z matzy_: like i dont need it to serve html pages or anything like that, just provide data for the front-end
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2020-03-04T06:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you can tell hunchentoot to serve any data.
2020-03-04T06:02:17Z matzy_: is that what dispatchers are for?
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2020-03-04T06:03:40Z no-defun-allowed: You can return any string from define-easy-handler, which can be JSON text.
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2020-03-04T06:04:32Z matzy_: not to make you read even 25% of this, but this is basically what i want right? https://www.darkchestnut.com/2019/http-routing-libraries-hunchentoot/
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2020-03-04T06:05:40Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure, I don't write REST or whatever programs.
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2020-03-04T06:06:36Z no-defun-allowed: I write something like (define-easy-handler (foobar :uri "/foobar") (name) ...) and can pass NAME as a query parameter.
2020-03-04T06:06:40Z matzy_: ah ok
2020-03-04T06:07:16Z matzy_: so in your example, what if you have a big json object?
2020-03-04T06:07:26Z matzy_: just stays as one variable?
2020-03-04T06:07:45Z matzy_: does cl treat it as a string?  or is this getting into clos
2020-03-04T06:07:54Z no-defun-allowed: Just return the string that you want to send.
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2020-03-04T06:08:32Z no-defun-allowed: (and maybe set the content-type to represent what you are sending correctly.)
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2020-03-04T06:12:56Z matzy_: ok awesome.  thanks for the help
2020-03-04T06:13:04Z matzy_: i'll screw around some more
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2020-03-04T06:13:28Z matzy_: this language has a crazy high learning curve, but i love it at the same time
2020-03-04T06:13:54Z no-defun-allowed: You're likely approaching it wrong if it has a high learning curve.
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2020-03-04T06:14:47Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe not wrong, sorry, but in a way that doesn't utilise what you find easy.
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2020-03-04T06:17:33Z matzy_: well i thought building a super simple api would solve that problem, but it really hasn;t
2020-03-04T06:17:49Z matzy_: i've been through the first 4 chapters of PCL which has helped some
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2020-03-04T06:19:11Z saturn2: you can also write the http response to a stream, if you want
2020-03-04T06:19:27Z matzy_: But like I went to this site (seems just what im looking for), http://quickdocs.org/simple-routes/, and go to run the demo, and it tells me "The name "CL-WHO" does not designate any package
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2020-03-04T06:20:24Z saturn2: something like (let ((stream (hunchentoot:send-headers))) (encode-json-to-stream stream data))
2020-03-04T06:22:14Z saturn2: you probably need to load cl-who by (ql:quickload "cl-who")
2020-03-04T06:25:09Z matzy_: at the top the author has:
2020-03-04T06:25:12Z matzy_: *had:
2020-03-04T06:25:14Z matzy_: (defpackage :simpleroutes-demo  (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :simple-routes))
2020-03-04T06:25:25Z matzy_: that doesn't load the packages via ql?
2020-03-04T06:26:34Z saturn2: no
2020-03-04T06:27:36Z matzy_: ahhhh ok
2020-03-04T06:28:08Z matzy_: i wonder why the author wouldnt include that in his demo
2020-03-04T06:28:51Z matzy_: should the ql loads come before or after the defpackage?
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2020-03-04T06:31:19Z saturn2: the .asd file should be named the same as the system it defines so quicklisp can find it
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2020-03-04T06:39:41Z pjb: matzy_: so, HTTP has been invented 30 years ago, and you still don't know it has nothing to do with HML?
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2020-03-04T06:40:34Z matzy_: pjb no but from i was reading on the hunchentoot docs it was talking a lot about serving webpages, which i dont want it to do
2020-03-04T06:41:14Z matzy_: and that simple-routes repo makes no sense, it tells you to call an .asd file that doesn't exist
2020-03-04T06:41:25Z pjb: a web server just serves resources. URL are universal RESOURCE locators, not HTML web page locators.
2020-03-04T06:42:15Z matzy_: right, but the docs went straight into serving html pages back from routes
2020-03-04T06:42:24Z matzy_: and i need json, so i got a bit lost
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2020-03-04T06:42:53Z matzy_: like i wish there was a stupid simple example i could see to grok it
2020-03-04T06:44:09Z pjb: matzy_: the first example in the doc!!!! https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#teen-age
2020-03-04T06:44:19Z pjb: (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (say-yo :uri "/yo") (name)  (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) "text/plain")  (format nil "Hey~@[ ~A~]!" name))
2020-03-04T06:44:19Z saturn2: matzy_: you can probably just do (ql:quickload "simpleroutes-demo")
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2020-03-04T06:45:02Z pjb: s-text/plain-application/json-
2020-03-04T06:45:07Z matzy_: ok now that i did get working :)
2020-03-04T06:45:32Z matzy_: i see what you mean about the json too, thanks
2020-03-04T06:45:33Z pjb: matzy_: forget about canned batteries-included stuff. It never works. Read the doc, and write your own code!
2020-03-04T06:46:16Z matzy_: so what's the difference between:
2020-03-04T06:46:20Z matzy_: (defpackage :simpleroutes-demo  (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :simple-routes))
2020-03-04T06:46:23Z matzy_: and
2020-03-04T06:46:36Z matzy_: (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)(ql:quickload :cl-who)(ql:quickload :simple-routes)
2020-03-04T06:46:57Z pjb: The former defines a CL packages. The later forms download, install and load systems.
2020-03-04T06:47:12Z pjb: packages and systems are entirely UNRELATED, just like HTTP is unrelated to HTML.
2020-03-04T06:47:26Z pjb: matzy_: you seem to have really strange connections in your brains…
2020-03-04T06:47:55Z matzy_: i dunno, i've learned a few languages but nothing like this
2020-03-04T06:47:59Z saturn2: other languages use the word "package" to mean "system"
2020-03-04T06:48:06Z pjb: matzy_: my dog is called Georges, but it has nothing in common with any US president.
2020-03-04T06:48:17Z matzy_: I'm originally a C guy
2020-03-04T06:49:10Z saturn2: in lisp, a package is just a collection of symbols, and it's used to protect different software from namespace collisions
2020-03-04T06:49:11Z jackdaniel: matzy_: "packages" in Common Lisp are similar to "namespaces" in C++
2020-03-04T06:49:29Z jackdaniel: C language has no package equivalent (except of consistently used prefixes)
2020-03-04T06:49:41Z matzy_: yeah thats what i was thinking
2020-03-04T06:49:49Z matzy_: is there an equivalent in JS?
2020-03-04T06:50:12Z saturn2: that defpackage line is creating a new package called simpleroutes-demo which imports all symbols from common-lisp, hunchentoot, cl-who, and simple-routes
2020-03-04T06:50:13Z jackdaniel: I don't think there is, but I don't know JS well enough to really tell
2020-03-04T06:50:49Z pjb: from the packages named "COMMON-LISP", "HUNCHENTOOT", "CL-WHO" and "SIMPLE-ROUTES", assuming they exist.
2020-03-04T06:50:50Z saturn2: yes, JS has modules which are similar to packages
2020-03-04T06:50:55Z Jachy: matzy_: modern JS modules are similar -- CL packages let you export symbols even.
2020-03-04T06:51:08Z jackdaniel: matzy_: n.b it is a well known fact, that packages in Common Lisp confuse new programmers
2020-03-04T06:51:12Z matzy_: saturn2 ok that makes sense.  do they need to be ql'd first?
2020-03-04T06:51:55Z saturn2: they need to be loaded somehow, ql is a tool that will load them for you
2020-03-04T06:52:12Z matzy_: but i thought ql loads systems and not packages
2020-03-04T06:52:29Z matzy_: maybe i just need to read more on the difference
2020-03-04T06:52:47Z jackdaniel: matzy_: you may simply call (load "packages.lisp") to define packages, quicklisp is a library which is built on top of a buildsystem called asdf which underneath indeed calls compile-file and load
2020-03-04T06:52:52Z pjb: Systems are set of files.
2020-03-04T06:53:15Z pjb: loading a system means loading the files in some order (eg. a topological sort on file dependencies).
2020-03-04T06:53:23Z matzy_: ok
2020-03-04T06:53:56Z pjb: loading files _can_ have side effects, such as the creation or the modification of packages and other lisp data structure in the environment.
2020-03-04T06:53:59Z matzy_: so is it that you load a system once per project and then use the package wherever?
2020-03-04T06:54:33Z jackdaniel: yes. /me disconnects now, see you
2020-03-04T06:54:53Z matzy_: ahhh ok.  thanks!
2020-03-04T06:55:01Z pjb: But otherwise, there's no relationship between systems and package. It may just happen that a system named "hunchentoot" may have files that when loaded will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT", but it's pure hasard.
2020-03-04T06:55:34Z saturn2: nearly all systems will define a package with the same name, though
2020-03-04T06:55:35Z matzy_: funny, i think i got an error like that earlier
2020-03-04T06:55:35Z pjb: Note that packages are named with strings (usually in upper case, but not necessarily), while systems are named by lower-case strings.
2020-03-04T06:56:10Z matzy_: so say you want to use hunchentoot.  do you load the system and the package in the same file?
2020-03-04T06:56:30Z pjb: A system may define 0, 1 or more packages.  Therefore they just cannot map to package with the same name. Furthermore I just explained that system names are LOWERCASE, while package names are UPPERCASE! So they definitely cannot be the same!
2020-03-04T06:56:36Z matzy_: or is there a file where you load all your packages and then require systems where needed?
2020-03-04T06:56:45Z pjb: matzy_: you cannot load a package.
2020-03-04T06:56:54Z pjb: matzy_: you can only define a package.
2020-03-04T06:57:00Z matzy_: ah yeah ok, sorry i missed that
2020-03-04T06:57:14Z pjb: This may occur when loading a file, or when calling a function or a macro, or whenever.
2020-03-04T06:58:06Z matzy_: so if i have the system hunchentoot loaded, why on earth would i define a package with the same name (albeit different case)?
2020-03-04T06:58:48Z matzy_: ah, is it to map the package to teh correct system?
2020-03-04T06:58:50Z pjb: Yes, you would not, since if you read the documentation of the "hunchentoot" system, you will see that loading it will load files that will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT".
2020-03-04T06:58:57Z pjb: So why would you do that yourself, indeed?
2020-03-04T06:59:29Z matzy_: ok, i see
2020-03-04T06:59:34Z saturn2: packages help you organize your code, systems help you compile and load your files
2020-03-04T07:00:31Z matzy_: ok this has definitely helped clear up some confusion lol
2020-03-04T07:00:36Z matzy_: much appreciated
2020-03-04T07:00:53Z matzy_: i'll read a little more on both and hopefully it'll fully click
2020-03-04T07:01:04Z pjb: matzy_: but be sure to check the names, sometimes, the package names are quite different from the system name.
2020-03-04T07:01:36Z pjb: and often several packages are defined.  This is why asdf will display the name of the packages that are defined when the system is loaded.
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2020-03-04T07:03:14Z matzy_: how do you normally check the names?  docs or trial and error?
2020-03-04T07:04:22Z pjb: doc, or as I said, you watch for the message from asdf when loading the system.
2020-03-04T07:05:41Z matzy_: ah ok
2020-03-04T07:06:13Z pjb: Also, often packages will have nicknames, and you will rather use some small nickname than the actual package name.
2020-03-04T07:10:14Z matzy_: so wait, are symbols defined within packages?
2020-03-04T07:10:21Z pjb: No.
2020-03-04T07:10:31Z pjb: Symbols are interned or present in packages.
2020-03-04T07:10:55Z pjb: They can be present by importing them, or by using a package that exports them.
2020-03-04T07:11:09Z pjb: (note that importing a homeless symbol will intern it).
2020-03-04T07:12:05Z pjb: matzy_: most lisp notion is indepedent and unrelated to other lisp notions.
2020-03-04T07:12:33Z pjb: When there's some coupling, it's rather weak and optional.
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2020-03-04T07:13:08Z matzy_: ok i'm starting to get it
2020-03-04T07:13:09Z pjb: This is one thing that makes it a strong language: you can combine everything with everything.
2020-03-04T07:13:18Z matzy_: thanks for much for all your time and explanation
2020-03-04T07:13:44Z saturn2: symbols do have a home package, though
2020-03-04T07:13:59Z pjb: Not all of them!
2020-03-04T07:14:17Z pjb: (make-symbol "FOO") #| --> #:foo |# no home package. (symbol-package (make-symbol "foo")) #| --> nil |#
2020-03-04T07:15:29Z pjb: This is what the #: notation means. "no home package".
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2020-03-04T09:49:37Z francogrex: hi, i would like to know if anyone uses/used Linj?
2020-03-04T09:49:59Z no-defun-allowed: This? https://github.com/qyqx/linj
2020-03-04T09:50:09Z francogrex: this https://github.com/xach/linj yes
2020-03-04T09:52:32Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I think running-Common-Lisp-in-Javaland is mostly done with ABCL now.
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2020-03-04T09:59:29Z pjb: francogrex: assumedly, the author used it once upon a time.
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2020-03-04T10:00:44Z francogrex: I use it frequently
2020-03-04T10:01:11Z Odin-: So why were you asking?
2020-03-04T10:01:21Z francogrex: I though some other lispers use it too
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2020-03-04T10:02:46Z Odin-: I rather suspect those looking for CL-on-JVM would use ABCL now, and those looking for any Lisp at all would use Clojure.
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2020-03-04T10:03:29Z no-defun-allowed: They would be looking for any Lisp at all for a while.
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2020-03-04T10:07:43Z Odin-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI
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2020-03-04T10:16:12Z pjb: Odin-: sometimes, you need to generate Java code. For example, if you target dalvik.
2020-03-04T10:16:44Z Odin-: Hm. True.
2020-03-04T10:17:19Z Odin-: That's not CL-on-JVM, strictly, but a different usecase I forgot. :p
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2020-03-04T10:21:11Z chrnybo: LW has a Java Interface: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-113.htm
2020-03-04T10:24:15Z no-defun-allowed: (ql:quickload :superior-rimshot) ; ⇒ <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlxVgCqXiN0>
2020-03-04T10:24:32Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yeah, Dalvik is weird.
2020-03-04T10:25:22Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Conceded.
2020-03-04T10:25:42Z Shinmera: Speaking of ABCL, it seems easye has disappeared (people are unable to contact him anywhere)
2020-03-04T10:25:43Z flip214: ECL is supported on android
2020-03-04T10:26:08Z flip214: Shinmera: last I know is that he got a new job in January, something about common lisp
2020-03-04T10:27:20Z Shinmera: flip214: I was contacted in February and apparently the company he started working for was unable to contact him too
2020-03-04T10:27:39Z flip214: oh, ouch
2020-03-04T10:27:48Z flip214: that's not a good sign
2020-03-04T10:27:50Z Shinmera: Yeah :(
2020-03-04T10:29:35Z flip214: I'm not family, so I can't even call the Police
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2020-03-04T10:30:07Z no-defun-allowed: Shit, that escalated quickly.
2020-03-04T10:31:13Z flip214: Shinmera: when in February? Beginning or end?
2020-03-04T10:31:25Z Shinmera: 4th, so exactly a month ago.
2020-03-04T10:31:33Z flip214: hrmpf
2020-03-04T10:31:41Z flip214: thanks
2020-03-04T10:31:45Z flip214: for the data
2020-03-04T10:31:46Z Shinmera: Apparently by then the company had been unable to reach him for weeks.
2020-03-04T10:32:34Z Shinmera: I don't live in Austria, nor know where he lives, so I wasn't really able to help out.
2020-03-04T10:32:59Z beach: Sounds bad.
2020-03-04T10:33:47Z flip214: well, in December he applied at BRZ... in the end of December (or beginning of Jan?) I kind-of-heard that he found some better place and wouldn't start with us
2020-03-04T10:35:29Z Odin-: https://github.com/macports/macports-ports/commit/10e7e315a2f032c80a2afe2cb34d88d9af728672
2020-03-04T10:35:32Z flip214: but that's just hearsay. The last sign of him was in #common-lisp.net on Feb 19th
2020-03-04T10:35:46Z flip214: Odin-: thanks!
2020-03-04T10:35:49Z Odin-: Or is that a different easye?
2020-03-04T10:36:00Z Shinmera: No, that's the one
2020-03-04T10:36:18Z flip214: at least his nick
2020-03-04T10:39:03Z Odin-: https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/issues/146
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2020-03-04T10:39:58Z pjb: easye: Hello!
2020-03-04T10:40:50Z pjb: geoip of easye is Manchester 53°28'51.24" N, 2°14'14.64" S…
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2020-03-04T10:46:31Z ioa: Shinmera: easye has not disappeared
2020-03-04T10:46:47Z Shinmera: That's a relief, then!
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2020-03-04T10:47:06Z Odin-: I believe we'd gotten to that conclusion, yes.
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2020-03-04T10:54:05Z francogrex: HiI was disconnected
2020-03-04T10:54:28Z francogrex: Linj I use it it is very nice but wanted to find a "soulmate" who uses it too :)
2020-03-04T10:55:09Z flip214: pjb: how did you find that?
2020-03-04T10:55:29Z flip214: do you have access to his google account or so?
2020-03-04T10:55:45Z Shinmera: I guess he looked at the IRC hostname.
2020-03-04T10:56:29Z flip214: oh, he got online in the last few minutes... "Wenn man von der Sonne spricht"
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2020-03-04T11:01:28Z phoe: in Polish it's "o wilku mowa", literally, "speak of the wolf"
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2020-03-04T11:59:13Z pjb: flip214: oh, I made a mistake, I took the wrong IP.  From /whois easye, then https://www.geodatatool.com/en/?ip=oxi.slack.net we see it's connected from Germany.
2020-03-04T11:59:28Z pjb: Nuremberg Latitude: 49.447780 Longitude: 11.068330
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2020-03-04T12:08:29Z jmercouris: phoe: quick update, I tested it, it does work
2020-03-04T12:08:38Z jmercouris: phoe: that is, you use extern c, compile with c++ compiler and cffi can invoke those functions
2020-03-04T12:09:47Z phoe: jmercouris: good
2020-03-04T12:11:03Z jmercouris: that saves me a lot of translation :-)
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2020-03-04T12:11:12Z jmercouris: now to make an API for the functions I need
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2020-03-04T13:58:48Z red-dot: Saw some discussion of Lisp & C++ from this afternoon. Perhaps this might be useful: https://github.com/Islam0mar/cl-cxx
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2020-03-04T14:32:07Z shka_: red-dot: i recommend ECL for that
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2020-03-04T14:58:19Z amerlyq: Is ECL healhy and growing or old, abandoned and dying?
2020-03-04T14:59:16Z beach: The former.
2020-03-04T14:59:42Z beach: amerlyq: The current maintainer is jackdaniel and he is an invited speaker of ELS this year to talk about it.
2020-03-04T15:00:26Z amerlyq: So, could you still recommend using it as embedded language for new middle-sized projects?
2020-03-04T15:01:56Z amerlyq: Or is there anything different? Or maybe Lisp isn't the best tool for the job nowadays (like Lua/Python hype)?
2020-03-04T15:01:57Z beach: I don't recommend embedding Common Lisp in anything else, simply because I recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp.  I am interested in ECL, but not for embedding.
2020-03-04T15:02:26Z beach: Oh, I think if you really have to embed something, it might as well be Common Lisp.
2020-03-04T15:04:31Z amerlyq: How ECL fare comparing with Guile in practice? There are not much comparison articles on the web I could find. But Guile had some incomprehensible memory corruptions last time I used it.
2020-03-04T15:04:34Z beach: Especially for a "new middle-sized project" I definitely recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp.
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2020-03-04T15:05:14Z jcowan: Are there any modern use cases for read-char-no-hang?
2020-03-04T15:06:00Z beach: amerlyq: What would be your reason for using something other than Common Lisp in a new middle-sized project?
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2020-03-04T15:08:36Z beach: amerlyq: I mean, if you have an existing code base written in (say) C, I can understand why you are not particularly interested in rewriting it, so in such a thing I can see embedding something like Common Lisp, but a new project?
2020-03-04T15:09:31Z amerlyq: People and libs. Of course it's a people thing. And libs. It's hard when there are only 2-3 lisp devs for dozen of C/C++ ones, and half of your libs are C++ already.
2020-03-04T15:10:05Z amerlyq: Of course we can write more cffi wrappers, but... it somehow doesn't "click".
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2020-03-04T15:11:29Z beach: Well, that depends on the kind of project.  Also, you would have to weigh the difference between your productivity in different languages with the necessity of rewriting some libraries in Common Lisp.  The latter would then benefit more Common Lisp programmers.
2020-03-04T15:11:46Z p_l: beach: there are various subtle runtime environment effects sometimes to take care
2020-03-04T15:12:08Z amerlyq: But sometimes I wonder too if writing everything in CL would be better. Fragmentation/API suffering from such mix becomes intolerable at times.
2020-03-04T15:12:24Z p_l: I have a half-started project that depends on ECL because it's easiest to build small, self-contained static binaries with it
2020-03-04T15:14:10Z p_l: it does help to inline some C code, even, though I'm hoping to put everything in CFFI
2020-03-04T15:14:26Z phoe: jcowan: yes, for instance, if you want to not block.
2020-03-04T15:15:12Z beach: I apologize.  I thought we were here because we were convinced about the virtues of writing code in Common Lisp.  Should have known.
2020-03-04T15:15:43Z amerlyq: Lisp is nice, but world is broken
2020-03-04T15:15:53Z jcowan: Trivially yes.  But in what circumstances is that more useful than a general poll/select analogue?
2020-03-04T15:16:54Z phoe: beach: I thought we're here because we are writing Common Lisp, not because of ideology
2020-03-04T15:17:25Z phoe: one can practice Lisp without being convinced of the set of virtues that you mention after all
2020-03-04T15:17:49Z beach: I should have known better than to get involved.  I will now be quiet.
2020-03-04T15:17:57Z beach: Again, I am sorry.
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2020-03-04T15:22:54Z amerlyq: The Night Watch by J.Mickens -- sometimes I recommend it to people, who think system engineers are a fiction and their <PlaceLanguageHere> solves everything :) https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1311_05-08_mickens.pdf
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2020-03-04T15:24:20Z phoe: system design is a necessity no matter which language you use
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2020-03-04T15:24:33Z phoe: also even if that language is English
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2020-03-04T15:30:02Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: we are closing to a release after few years of development
2020-03-04T15:30:27Z phoe: and that is amazing stuff
2020-03-04T15:30:28Z jackdaniel: there is only one remaining regression to be solved
2020-03-04T15:30:29Z amerlyq: oh, so that's what the gap in news means
2020-03-04T15:30:53Z phoe: for the time being, you can clone and build the newest ecl from the git repository
2020-03-04T15:30:58Z phoe: and have the freshmost ECL
2020-03-04T15:31:12Z phoe: ;; same with CCL, though the CCL build process is more complicated
2020-03-04T15:31:20Z amerlyq: it sounds somewhat scary for production :)
2020-03-04T15:31:54Z jackdaniel: even after the release we won't build binaries, that's up to distributions to produce them
2020-03-04T15:32:16Z amerlyq: I meant I better wait until somebody mark some RC version as "stable enough" on master branch
2020-03-04T15:32:44Z phoe: if you want production quality stuff, then yes, you should wait for a release (;
2020-03-04T15:32:46Z jackdaniel: either way, if you have problems with using ECL drop by on #ecl (unless you have some general lisp question, then this channel is fine)
2020-03-04T15:33:34Z jackdaniel: regarding comparison to scheme -- the closest implementation to ecl in scheme world is chicken not guile
2020-03-04T15:34:55Z amerlyq: phoe: yes, there is the time to upgrade old stuff (and fix upgrade problems), and the time to write new stuff (and fix its bugs). And better never mix them together. So I will wait :)
2020-03-04T15:35:27Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: you have a point
2020-03-04T15:35:28Z jackdaniel: as of "news gap", it is time-consuming to write quality posts, even short ones
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2020-03-04T15:38:53Z pfdietz: 'I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one.' -- Mark Twain
2020-03-04T15:39:51Z pfdietz: 'Most internet quotations are completely made up.' -- Abraham Lincoln
2020-03-04T15:40:06Z jackdaniel: 'I understood that reference.' - Captain America
2020-03-04T15:40:08Z amerlyq: pfdietz: still I understand jackdaniel, it's always some mental endeavour to write it, even if you simply dump whatever mess you have in your head.
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2020-03-04T15:41:06Z jackdaniel: n.b, some folks may be interested in the fact, that EQL5 project (ECL embedded in QT5) works on iphone (ios)
2020-03-04T15:41:42Z jackdaniel: (and on Android, but previous release also did work there, so it is not that much news)
2020-03-04T15:42:22Z amerlyq: Oh, nice. Why anybody still uses Qt ECMAScript anyway I would liked to know...
2020-03-04T15:42:32Z wsinatra: amerlyq: Thanks for the Night Watch suggest, absolutely hilarious read; and a good reminder to be a little less pedantic (since I'm quit well aligned with beach's mindset)
2020-03-04T15:42:54Z jackdaniel: night watch?
2020-03-04T15:43:11Z amerlyq: The, night watch :)
2020-03-04T15:43:18Z amerlyq: J.Mickens read
2020-03-04T15:43:41Z jackdaniel: ah, I see the link now, thank you
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2020-03-04T15:46:27Z jackdaniel: also, it is important to note, that ECL has now two maintainers, so even if I'm hit by the bus we are good to go ;)
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2020-03-04T16:30:40Z didi: So this SBCL warning is new to me: `; caught STYLE-WARNING:;   Can't preserve function source - missing MAKE-LOAD-FORM methods?' I'm compiling a method. What does it mean?
2020-03-04T16:30:40Z didi:  
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2020-03-04T16:38:18Z didi: Here is a small example: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2f95aa0c
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2020-03-04T16:54:47Z phoe: didi: which SBCL version?
2020-03-04T16:55:16Z didi: phoe: 1.4.16
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2020-03-04T16:55:36Z phoe: also happening on 2.0.0
2020-03-04T16:55:43Z phoe: if I try to C-c C-c forms from an unsaved buffer
2020-03-04T16:55:51Z didi: Same here.
2020-03-04T16:56:08Z phoe: also in a saved buffer
2020-03-04T16:56:11Z alandipert: has anyone experimented with bindings for libcmark, the commonmark markdown reference library?
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2020-03-04T16:57:30Z phoe: didi: can't see it on launchpad
2020-03-04T16:57:37Z phoe: could you post that on #sbcl and see what the devs say?
2020-03-04T16:57:42Z didi: phoe: Sure.
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2020-03-04T17:59:45Z zulu_inuoe: o/
2020-03-04T18:03:04Z phoe: heyyyy zulu
2020-03-04T18:03:31Z zulu_inuoe: I wanted to ask a question but I forgot what it was. It'll come back to me eventually
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2020-03-04T18:05:51Z phoe: you lost your last handle to it and it got garbage collected perhaps
2020-03-04T18:06:26Z didi: Weak hash tables are dangerous indeed.
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2020-03-04T18:10:14Z loli: Has anyone had issues with the Fset package giving off a style warning as of late?
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2020-03-04T18:16:38Z phoe: what sorta style warnings?
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2020-03-04T18:16:54Z phoe: I have only one:
2020-03-04T18:17:00Z loli: `Generic function FSET:ITERATOR clobbers an earlier FTYPE proclamation ...'
2020-03-04T18:17:07Z phoe: /home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/fset-20171019-git/Code/defs.lisp
2020-03-04T18:17:10Z phoe: The default initial element #\Nul is not a EXTENDED-CHAR.
2020-03-04T18:17:19Z phoe: oh, huh
2020-03-04T18:17:26Z loli: This is on loading the package, which is quite annoying, as this shows up on my scripts
2020-03-04T18:17:29Z phoe: oh wait, I get that one too
2020-03-04T18:17:30Z loli: I can't find out how to disable it
2020-03-04T18:18:25Z phoe: (handler-bind ((warning #'muffle-warning)) (asdf:load-system :fset :force t))
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2020-03-04T18:18:47Z loli: let me add that to my script and see if that works
2020-03-04T18:19:31Z _death: best way to disable it is to fix it
2020-03-04T18:19:46Z loli: Yes, but it is not my package, I'd have to submit a PR and wait.
2020-03-04T18:20:12Z _death: not really.. you can just patch it.. submission of PR is a bonus
2020-03-04T18:20:36Z loli: well I have this script deployed via roswell, and so my coworkers get this warning as well
2020-03-04T18:20:49Z _death: oh well
2020-03-04T18:22:45Z loli: thanks phoe, after removing the force it worked like a charm
2020-03-04T18:23:12Z phoe: loli: after removing :force?
2020-03-04T18:23:27Z phoe: at this point you might get no warnings whatsoever because it'll be loading precompiled FASL files
2020-03-04T18:23:37Z loli: which is fine by me
2020-03-04T18:23:47Z phoe: unless you compile from source
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2020-03-04T18:46:32Z loli: I must say Ros is quite nice to use. Do we have anyway of fixing a package to use various libraries within a range of versions?
2020-03-04T18:46:44Z loli: That was something I was never able to figure out too well.
2020-03-04T18:48:51Z zulu_inuoe: Oh I remember now. Is there a way to have quicklisp install the dependencies of a system, without loading the system itself?
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2020-03-04T18:52:06Z zulu_inuoe: Best I can think of atm is to asdf:find-system, iterate through its deps (including defsystem-depends-on deps) and quickload each one
2020-03-04T18:54:56Z ebrasca: Hi , I get this error http://ix.io/2doB when I try to load :next browser.
2020-03-04T18:56:22Z phoe: zulu_inuoe: no idea
2020-03-04T18:56:37Z phoe: I think you could hack the QL client into loading everything *but* a given system
2020-03-04T18:56:54Z phoe: that should be doable by editing its sources
2020-03-04T18:57:08Z phoe: (and you could possibly make a PR to quicklisp-client that achieves this in a clean way!)
2020-03-04T18:58:28Z wsinatra: zulu_inuoe: Would fukamachi's Qlot work? I don't think I've more than glanced at it, but it sounds similar
2020-03-04T18:59:47Z zulu_inuoe: qlot would work but I'd rather avoid it right now until I look into it later. It's fallen down a few times last I used it and want to avoid an extra dep if I can avoid it
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2020-03-04T19:05:57Z wsinatra: That makes sense, I've never used it myself so it was really just a guess
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2020-03-04T19:25:51Z ebrasca: I have no idea how to fix my error.
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2020-03-04T19:28:41Z phoe: minion: memo for jmercouris: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now
2020-03-04T19:28:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-03-04T19:29:22Z ebrasca: phoe: I think my problem is more asdf .
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2020-03-04T19:29:57Z ebrasca: phoe: It loaded fine in my gentoo and after some update it stop loading.
2020-03-04T19:30:26Z ebrasca: phoe: There is #nEXT-Browser
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2020-03-04T19:31:29Z phoe: oh! I see
2020-03-04T19:32:00Z phoe: hm...
2020-03-04T19:32:16Z phoe: (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) ? I never used prove, but I wonder if that will fix it
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2020-03-04T19:32:27Z phoe: (also, TIL of a new IRC channel)
2020-03-04T19:32:47Z eeeeeta wonders idly whether there are any Lispy XMPP channels about
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2020-03-04T19:33:36Z ebrasca: I just run (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) and what I don with it?
2020-03-04T19:34:42Z akhetopnu: I have a system in common lisp that depends on a bunch of other systems. I want to compile this system into a single .fasl file *and not load it afterwards*. Is that possible? I'm tinkering with different operations, I tried compile-op (the 'best practices' page on asdf's github says it 'does not necessarily load them system') but it doesn't work as advertised.
2020-03-04T19:35:08Z ebrasca: phoe: I think you mean this (prove-asdf:run-test-system :next)
2020-03-04T19:36:03Z akhetopnu: is there a way to compile it without the runtime? just the system + dependencies?
2020-03-04T19:38:54Z ebrasca: phoe: After runing prove-asdf I get http://ix.io/2doZ
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2020-03-04T19:43:45Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks , I managet to fix my problem!
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2020-03-04T19:55:12Z ebrasca: phoe: It like load but then I don't get my :next package.
2020-03-04T19:55:14Z phoe: ebrasca: that, in turn, sounds like an old ASDF/UIOP version
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2020-03-04T19:55:41Z ebrasca: phoe: How to check?
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2020-03-04T19:56:24Z phoe: (asdf:asdf-version)
2020-03-04T19:56:43Z ebrasca: "3.1.5"
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2020-03-04T19:56:51Z phoe: that's ollld
2020-03-04T19:57:04Z phoe: which (lisp-implementation-version) are you using?
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2020-03-04T19:57:40Z ebrasca: "1.4.9"
2020-03-04T19:58:05Z phoe: SBCL 1.4.9 is ancient by now
2020-03-04T19:58:14Z phoe: go ahead and upgrade to at least 2.0.2
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2020-03-04T20:04:51Z mfiano: ebrasca: prove has been replaced
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2020-03-04T20:05:26Z phoe: mfiano: I don't think he's the one concerned with that; he's loading software, not writing it
2020-03-04T20:05:39Z ebrasca: Gentoo only have up to sbcl-2.0.1
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2020-03-04T20:07:22Z phoe: hm, then grab 2.0.1, it's new enough
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2020-03-04T20:10:11Z mfiano: phoe: SBCL 2.0.2 has ASDF 3.3.1, and was last updated in SBCL 1.4.2, before his version.
2020-03-04T20:11:18Z phoe: mfiano: huh
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2020-03-04T20:11:25Z phoe: if he has 1.4.9 when he should have a newer ASDF then
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2020-03-04T20:33:34Z iAmDecim: does anyone here use roswell to handle their CL installations?
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2020-03-04T20:36:53Z phoe: iAmDecim: me
2020-03-04T20:37:00Z phoe: although all I use roswell for is `ros install sbcl`
2020-03-04T20:37:10Z phoe: nothing fancy like using multiple implementations or versions
2020-03-04T20:37:13Z phoe: and only on Linux
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2020-03-04T20:46:34Z pjb: didi: your x parameter is shadowed by the loop variable x.
2020-03-04T20:46:53Z pjb: didi: loop is not let or let*.
2020-03-04T20:47:45Z pjb: didi: err, sorry, it seems implementations don't shadow it…
2020-03-04T20:48:04Z pjb: didi: I thought loop established bindings first, and initialized later.
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2020-03-04T20:53:22Z pjb: iAmDecim: I just use git and compile my implementations.
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2020-03-04T21:43:07Z jmercouris: I want to add a feature to Next where you can also view the source of a given command, I'm wondeirng how to do this
2020-03-04T21:43:07Z minion: jmercouris, memo from phoe: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now
2020-03-04T21:43:21Z jmercouris: phoe: channel, next-browser
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2020-03-04T21:43:42Z ebrasca: jmercouris: hi
2020-03-04T21:43:48Z jmercouris: I have a macro define-command
2020-03-04T21:43:54Z jmercouris: hello ebrasca
2020-03-04T21:44:30Z jmercouris: where I do save the function body, just not sure how to print the function body
2020-03-04T21:44:36Z jmercouris: not sure if that makes sense
2020-03-04T21:45:10Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I am updating my sbcl and asdf
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2020-03-04T21:45:43Z jmercouris: OK :-]
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2020-03-04T21:46:45Z jmercouris: given: (defparameter x (lambda (y) (print y)))
2020-03-04T21:46:54Z jmercouris: how can I print (lambda (y) (print y))?
2020-03-04T21:47:12Z jmercouris: OH there is a source form
2020-03-04T21:47:13Z jmercouris: interesting
2020-03-04T21:47:22Z phoe: jmercouris: you mean print the--- oh, I see
2020-03-04T21:47:34Z phoe: normally you can't do that without remembering the uncompiled form in some way
2020-03-04T21:47:39Z phoe: SBCL maybe does that for you
2020-03-04T21:47:51Z jmercouris: Yeah, I was thinking depending on the optimize level or something
2020-03-04T21:48:09Z jmercouris: I'm also afraid I'd never heard of a reference to that anywhere, but it is appearing in SBCL
2020-03-04T21:48:27Z jmercouris: I'd like it to work however cross implementation, so maybe I will need to save the SEXP or something in my define-command macro
2020-03-04T21:48:30Z jmercouris: just not sure how to do that
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2020-03-04T21:53:32Z phoe: that's not hard
2020-03-04T21:53:58Z jmercouris: how would you suggest I do it
2020-03-04T21:54:12Z phoe: (defmacro define-command (&body body) `(progn (remember-body ',body) ,(expand-body body)))
2020-03-04T21:54:27Z phoe: (define-command :foo :bar :baz) will expand into
2020-03-04T21:54:39Z phoe: (progn (remember-body '(:foo :bar :baz)) ...)
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2020-03-04T21:54:55Z jmercouris: ah
2020-03-04T21:55:00Z jmercouris: so just pass the quoted form to a function
2020-03-04T21:55:00Z phoe: where ... is whatever your macro actually should expand into, disregarding the side effects
2020-03-04T21:55:03Z jmercouris: and save it as a variable or so
2020-03-04T21:55:06Z phoe: yes
2020-03-04T21:55:10Z phoe: or in some sorta hash table
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2020-03-04T21:55:18Z phoe: doesn't matter, as long as you do the ',body trick
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2020-03-04T21:55:29Z jmercouris: right, that makes sense
2020-03-04T21:55:33Z jmercouris: probably best as a slot in the command object then
2020-03-04T21:55:36Z phoe: that'll quote the body, or even the &whole if you need it, and therefore pass the whole form as Lisp data to the function
2020-03-04T21:55:40Z phoe: sure, that'll do too
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2020-03-04T21:56:07Z jmercouris: right, thanks
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2020-03-04T22:00:05Z jmercouris: jdz: you are probably right, I've noticed erratic behvavior since updating it in my package manager
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2020-03-04T22:06:23Z pjb: jmercouris: have a look at Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2020-03-04T22:07:01Z pjb: (defparameter *f* (lambda (y) (print y)))(function-lambda-expression *f*) #| --> nil ; nil ; nil |#
2020-03-04T22:07:01Z pjb:  
2020-03-04T22:07:15Z jmercouris: wait a minute, why would i want nil nil nil?
2020-03-04T22:07:33Z jmercouris: I assume that is an error
2020-03-04T22:07:37Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, you cannot count on function-lambda-expression. You have to do it yourself like in ibcl.
2020-03-04T22:07:41Z jmercouris: looks fascinating to be able to edit a DEFUN
2020-03-04T22:07:43Z pjb: This is not an error, this is conforming!
2020-03-04T22:07:56Z jmercouris: oh I see what you are illustrating
2020-03-04T22:08:02Z jmercouris: I thought you'd loaded IBCL and it wasnt showing the body
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2020-03-04T22:08:23Z jmercouris: you know what, this could be really cool for people to save their customized Next
2020-03-04T22:08:24Z pjb: For one-shot, you can also do: (defparameter *f-source* '(lambda (y) (print y))) (defparameter *f* (coerce *f-source* 'function))
2020-03-04T22:08:34Z jmercouris: they could edit something basically live, and then save the image that way
2020-03-04T22:08:41Z pjb: you have the choice between eval, compile or coerce to transform a lambda expression into a function.
2020-03-04T22:09:05Z pjb: jmercouris: definitely. ibcl is nice for image-based development.
2020-03-04T22:09:38Z pjb: If you provide a REPL, you can definitely consider saving the source forms.
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2020-03-04T22:10:01Z jmercouris: Yes, we will provide a repl, approximately 4 releases from now on our milestone
2020-03-04T22:10:06Z jmercouris: s/milestone/timeline
2020-03-04T22:10:19Z pjb: The alternative is to provide an editor, and save source text.
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2020-03-04T22:10:46Z jmercouris: well yeah, but it would be really cool to do it live like that
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2020-03-04T22:15:34Z pjb: Like in emacs.
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2020-03-04T22:35:38Z jmercouris: now I have a different problem, (coerce '(goldfish) 'string) -> nope
2020-03-04T22:35:51Z jmercouris: so I can't actually output the SEXP to the window...
2020-03-04T22:36:10Z Bike: Do you want to "coerce" arbitrary objects into strings?
2020-03-04T22:36:18Z jmercouris: I want to coerce a sexp into a string
2020-03-04T22:36:28Z Bike: That's not what coerce means in lisp. What you want is
2020-03-04T22:36:30Z Bike: clhs write-to-string
2020-03-04T22:36:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm
2020-03-04T22:36:47Z jmercouris: ah, yes
2020-03-04T22:36:58Z jmercouris: I feel a little bit silly now, I even have that in my codebase :-)
2020-03-04T22:37:12Z jmercouris: I guess it is getting late
2020-03-04T22:37:14Z Bike: it's impossible to remember everything.
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2020-03-04T22:39:25Z jmercouris: True, I am comparing the collective knowledge of the channel to my own personal knowledge
2020-03-04T22:40:26Z phoe: the collective hivemind is there for you when you need advice that your own mind doesn't produce at the moment
2020-03-04T22:41:39Z phoe: a general rule of interacting with a hivemind is just to keep a decent contribution-to-request ratio, or, if you don't yet feel like contributing yourself, a decent do-your-own-homework-to-request ratio
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2020-03-04T22:58:37Z iAmDecim: new slime question. so i made a basic function that just prints a string and compiled it..called it in the repl. thats fine. then i changed one character and C-c C-c again expecting it to show the updated function result and its holding the old version
2020-03-04T22:59:01Z pjb: iAmDecim: did you call it again?
2020-03-04T22:59:36Z pjb: (defun foo () (princ 42)) #| --> foo |# (foo) #| 42 --> 42 |# (defun foo () (princ 33)) #| --> foo |# (foo) #| 33 --> 33 |#
2020-03-04T23:00:24Z pjb: iAmDecim: most REPL have a hook that gets called each time the prompt is displayed. So you could call your function there.
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2020-03-04T23:01:21Z iAmDecim: pjb: ahh C-x C-e like with clojure
2020-03-04T23:01:53Z pjb: iAmDecim: oh, yes, you used C-c C-c which just compiles it. It doesn't load it in the image.
2020-03-04T23:02:02Z iAmDecim: "redifining ROOT::BLAH
2020-03-04T23:02:09Z iAmDecim: ok, i see. gotcha =P
2020-03-04T23:02:10Z pjb: iAmDecim: you want C-c C-l or C-x C-e.
2020-03-04T23:02:33Z pjb: iAmDecim: I never use C-c C-k or C-c C-c…
2020-03-04T23:02:56Z iAmDecim: C-c C-l to load it, correct? Ok,  I can steal most of what i know from cider
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2020-03-04T23:03:02Z pjb: iAmDecim: yes.
2020-03-04T23:03:13Z pjb: it loads the whole file.
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2020-03-04T23:03:27Z pjb: Few implementations load without compiling, so you're good.
2020-03-04T23:06:48Z pjb: swank-mrepl.lisp is direly lacking hooks…
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2020-03-04T23:08:59Z pjb: I guess you could use swank-repl:*send-repl-results-function*…
2020-03-04T23:09:59Z _death: C-c C-c should've worked.. it is possible that point was not in the right place
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2020-03-04T23:21:24Z pjb: iAmDecim: This is what I had in mind: https://termbin.com/gvjc
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2020-03-04T23:44:41Z iAmDecim: sayoonara....ok thats funny =P
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2020-03-04T23:59:10Z iAmDecim: Hmm can someone tell me whats wrong here? similar to my issue earlier except even when I execute it after loading it's not picking up on the function. https://imgur.com/a/1BNKIz3
2020-03-05T00:00:48Z Josh_2: try (in-package :root) then (hello-world) ?
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2020-03-05T00:04:18Z iAmDecim: Josh_2: yup that did it...ahh thank you. namespaces.  I started a project opposed to just a random lisp file
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2020-03-05T00:06:46Z pjb: or (root::hello-world)
2020-03-05T00:07:27Z pjb: If you write (defpackage "ROOT" (:use "CL") (:export "HELLO-WORLD")) , then you would be able to do (root:hello-world)
2020-03-05T00:08:04Z iAmDecim: pjb: thanks. Ahh I see. so you can control what namespace it loads in from the jump.
2020-03-05T00:10:01Z pjb: iAmDecim: if you want, you can use this: https://termbin.com/vw9k
2020-03-05T00:10:07Z iAmDecim: or rather call the namespace/function.  noted. Going to go ahead and just do a single file like PCL wanted me to for now but it's making sense. I don't think it will be THAT hard to come from clojure to CL. It definitely feels a better at first glance
2020-03-05T00:10:22Z pjb: and then you won't have to type again (in-package :root) in the repl, you'll get the side effect from the file.
2020-03-05T00:10:28Z pjb: clhs load
2020-03-05T00:10:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
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2020-03-05T00:11:46Z iAmDecim: pjb: Cool, good helper function
2020-03-05T00:14:01Z pjb: iAmDecim: I don't know if it's good.  It could get you in a dark corner, with some files…
2020-03-05T00:14:21Z pjb: There's a reason why *package* and *readtable* are bound in LOAD.  A security reason.
2020-03-05T00:14:42Z pjb: iAmDecim: but if you know what you're doing, yes, it can be useful.
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2020-03-05T00:15:56Z iAmDecim: pjb: i added it to my scratch file to play with in the future. ok going back to toying around
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2020-03-05T05:19:36Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2020-03-05T05:25:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-05T05:32:05Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2020-03-05T05:35:01Z nitrix: Hello. I'm heading to bed and would like keywords to find reading material.
2020-03-05T05:35:18Z nitrix: What lisps are you aware that don't have garbage collection?
2020-03-05T05:35:53Z beach: Common Lisp would be unusable without garbage collection.
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2020-03-05T05:37:01Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp introduced garbage collection, so it would be incredibly ironic to not have it.
2020-03-05T05:37:05Z loke: beach: Ther is this myth out there that somehow not having GC means that performace is better.
2020-03-05T05:37:49Z beach: loke: Yes, I know.  The people who think that have obviously not studied what manual memory management costs.
2020-03-05T05:37:54Z no-defun-allowed: However, if you want to be evil, I have studied Linear Lisp <http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html> which is kinda usable, provided you mark where copying goes.
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2020-03-05T05:37:58Z loke: The same people often promote the use of refcounting as an alternative. Which is quite hillarious given how slow refcounting is.
2020-03-05T05:38:08Z beach: Indeed.
2020-03-05T05:38:24Z beach: I talk about this issue in some of my talks to industry.
2020-03-05T05:38:28Z no-defun-allowed: (It's the predecessor to the borrow checker in R*st in a way.)
2020-03-05T05:38:45Z loke: no-defun-allowed: Yes, and stuff rust uses refcounting in some cases.
2020-03-05T05:38:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, there are few reasons to avoid GC nonetheless. You probably should listen to loke and beach.
2020-03-05T05:39:08Z loke: the BC can manage to do away with the refcounting sometimes, which is good I geuss. But why not just use a GC so you don't have to wrorry?
2020-03-05T05:39:41Z beach: I totally agree.  Automatic memory management makes modularity posssible.
2020-03-05T05:40:04Z beach: Or as Paul Wilson puts it: "liveness is a global property".
2020-03-05T05:40:41Z no-defun-allowed: nitrix: Please reconsider if you need to avoid garbage collection. If you absolutely do, then consider Linear Lisp. If you're not certain, try to write it in Common Lisp and test if the garbage collector is going to be an issue.
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2020-03-05T05:42:57Z no-defun-allowed: I had read Appel's "Garbage Collection can be faster than Stack Allocation" long ago. We had a laugh at the thought of using twelve times the size of the live set to make up the minimal difference between GC and stack allocation, but it is not so unreasonable in my opinion now.
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2020-03-05T05:45:51Z beach: Now, nitrix didn't say that it is a good idea not to have a garbage collector.
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2020-03-05T05:46:26Z loke: no-defun-allowed: And then you consider heap allocation, where GC-based systems are always going to be faster at
2020-03-05T05:46:40Z no-defun-allowed: If one writes in a mostly functional style, it is estimated about 90% to 95% of the data will be dead each nursery collection. That is not too far off 11/12 bytes being "wasted".
2020-03-05T05:46:40Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2020-03-05T05:46:51Z loke: (a amlloc() in a compacting heap GC system is only a single instruction)
2020-03-05T05:47:03Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely.
2020-03-05T05:48:18Z no-defun-allowed: But even when one could stack allocate, allocating in a nursery has very similar performance.
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2020-03-05T06:00:53Z buffergn0me: beach: Not entirely true that CL is unusable without GC. ThinLisp has no GC: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/vsedach/Thinlisp-1.1
2020-03-05T06:00:53Z minion: buffergn0me, memo from pjb: you are perfectly right. To clarify your code, use: https://termbin.com/6ueu
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2020-03-05T06:02:12Z buffergn0me: Obviously there are restrictions on how you write the code
2020-03-05T06:03:03Z buffergn0me: Same with Pre-Scheme
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2020-03-05T06:06:36Z beach: With manual memory management, one restriction is that you can't write (f (g x)) anymore.  You have to write something like (let* ((y (g x)) (z (f y))) (free y) z).
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2020-03-05T06:14:41Z buffergn0me: ThinLisp tried to do things like that automatically in the easy cases, had memory regions for explicitly declaring object lifetimes, and would issue warnings about consing that would leak memory
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2020-03-05T06:20:14Z nitrix: loke, I'm not proposing refcouting. I'm actually researching regions. More like Carp, but without that linear feel with Rust borrow crap.
2020-03-05T06:21:19Z nitrix: loke, I'm interested by pass-by-copy semantics and to let the compiler optimize for a pointer for cases where that'd be expensive and can be provably be done safely.
2020-03-05T06:21:28Z nitrix: There's got to be a Lisp out there that has done this.
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2020-03-05T06:21:35Z nitrix reading scrollback.
2020-03-05T06:21:57Z pjb: It should be noted that along with manual memory management, often comes manual error handling. So you would have to write actually: (let ((error nil)) (let ((y (g x (lambda (new-error) (setf error new-error))))) (if error (report-error error) (let ((z (f y (lambda (new-error) (setf error new-error))))) (if error (progn (free y) (report-error error) (progn (free y) z)))))))
2020-03-05T06:22:07Z beach: nitrix: That would not be a Common Lisp, and this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-03-05T06:22:34Z beach: pjb: Heh.
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2020-03-05T06:31:10Z drainful: Carp is interesting; it's 2 basically languages that share similar syntax, which makes it seems more like a lisp-scriptable compiler than a lisp. The non-dynamic portion is not very lisp-like all things considered.
2020-03-05T06:32:27Z drainful: I had the idea to implement a Carp-like language with common lisp acting as the lisp half, which I think would be pretty great, but I didn't get very far.
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2020-03-05T06:34:34Z nitrix: no-defun-allowed, I know people assume that a question like this implies I'm worried about performance due the GC or something like that, but I'm not. I use plenty of languages that are garbage collected and I don't give a crap. I am, though, researching something else right now, which happens to have been done (Linear Lisp proves it), and the interest is because being able to remove the GC implies you've also solved some other tricky problems
2020-03-05T06:34:34Z nitrix: with sharing semantics.
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2020-03-05T06:35:35Z nitrix: I know Common Lisp loves its memory sharing and this channel is full of CL worshippers so my only question, as phrased originally, are pointers to resources that would help me.
2020-03-05T06:39:15Z nitrix: no-defun-allowed, Also thank you :)
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2020-03-05T07:06:37Z beach: nitrix: It is not that this channel is "full of CL worshippers", but that this channel is specifically dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-03-05T07:07:53Z beach: And that is fortunate, because otherwise we would get into endless arguments about whether this or that language is "a Lisp".
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2020-03-05T07:08:39Z loke: beach: Yeah. That's such a fun discussion :-)
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2020-03-05T07:10:25Z beach: loke: Indeed.  By the way, are you going to ELS this year?
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2020-03-05T07:10:53Z no-defun-allowed: drainful: admittedly, I like linear logic more than the Carp system, partly because the former appears to work better with dynamic types, though duplicating fixnums and other small datum seems silly.
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2020-03-05T07:12:57Z no-defun-allowed: But we wonder if it can handle something like (f (if C (use X) (don't use X)) (if C (don't use X) (use X))) where X is used exactly once, regardless of C, but it is a little tricky to tell.
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2020-03-05T07:14:35Z no-defun-allowed: As for regions...I think Poly/ML uses those in place of garbage collection?
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2020-03-05T07:15:30Z drainful: no-defun-allowed: I think rust is getting gradually smarter with issues like that, though I haven't checked in on rust in months.
2020-03-05T07:15:39Z no-defun-allowed: No, not Poly.
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2020-03-05T07:16:00Z loke: beach: Doesn't seem like it :-(
2020-03-05T07:16:03Z loke: when is it again?
2020-03-05T07:16:25Z no-defun-allowed: MLKit is is.
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2020-03-05T07:17:57Z no-defun-allowed: drainful: Maybe. I think it also uses a large set of rules for rewriting tricky problems like that into simpler ones though.
2020-03-05T07:19:26Z drainful: Another issue is that in lisp I think providing good error messages for linear logic would be hellish with macros and all. Ideally you would have some way to extend macros to rewrite error messages or something.
2020-03-05T07:21:37Z ebrasca: loke: ELS is every year.
2020-03-05T07:21:57Z loke: ebrasca: Hah :-)
2020-03-05T07:22:27Z no-defun-allowed: I would prefer if the program was patched automatically to insert an appropriate duplicate or kill form, so ideally error messages wouldn't be needed.
2020-03-05T07:23:02Z drainful: Interesting
2020-03-05T07:23:14Z ck_: loke: els is scheduled for april 27th and 28th
2020-03-05T07:24:00Z no-defun-allowed: It seems very possible to automagically patch linear programs like that.
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2020-03-05T07:25:36Z loke: ck_: it won't be cancelled like all other events these days?
2020-03-05T07:26:00Z ck_: loke: :) right now, els is still scheducled for april 27th and 28th.
2020-03-05T07:26:48Z no-defun-allowed: Anyways, eeeer Common Lisp? Yes, I wrote a linearity checker in that. I had hoped I could make a linear->CL translator, but we need to avoid the heap as much as possible and that would require some odd representations.
2020-03-05T07:29:06Z drainful: no-defun-allowed: I never considered automatically patching linear programs, looking at Rust and ATS had me in a different mindset. Are there any examples or reading material regarding that technique?
2020-03-05T07:29:20Z trittweiler: loke: events with more than 1000 participants are prohibited from taking place in Switzerland as a measure against the coronavirus outbreak. I doubt ELS will accrue that many participants :)
2020-03-05T07:30:04Z loke: trittweiler: I never considered rules against meetings, but rather that some travellers may not want to travel.
2020-03-05T07:30:18Z loke: Also, for some reason some countries have designated Singapore as high risk.
2020-03-05T07:32:23Z jackdaniel: if I were looking unconspiciously at the map and there were a single red dot on it, I'd become alert immedietely ;-)
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2020-03-05T07:34:09Z loke: Hah, well, singapore is indeed just a red dot :-)
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2020-03-05T07:39:34Z flip214: "Get your virus while it's still fresh"
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2020-03-05T07:56:43Z Shinmera: loke: I expect attendance won't be an all-time high this year, both because of that, but also because Zürich is expensive.
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2020-03-05T07:58:05Z Shinmera: But no, ELS won't be cancelled unless Didier or I get sick, I suppose.
2020-03-05T07:58:12Z Shinmera: Or the venue closes down.
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2020-03-05T08:11:09Z no-defun-allowed: drainful: Nope, I came up with it because I don't particularly like the stereotypically whiny kind of compilers. If they know what the problem is, they frequently can propose a solution, and when they can, they can't rewrite the source material to fix it and go on.
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2020-03-05T08:13:21Z no-defun-allowed: If a batch compiler could fix some issues automatically and update the source with those fixes like that, I think it would be much less painful.
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2020-03-05T08:14:34Z drainful: That's a good idea. Maybe you could throw in some warning for it when you have (optimize (speed 3)) or something. The remaining impossible to solve casesn should be relatively few.
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2020-03-05T08:17:35Z no-defun-allowed: I do need to emphasise "frequently" though, as some problems are very hard to solve but easy to verify; but when it's something like "you wrote %d in the format string but should have used %llu", come on...
2020-03-05T08:19:16Z trittweiler: how do you know what the intention was?
2020-03-05T08:19:21Z drainful: You could write a machine-learning powered "Did you mean this?" engine
2020-03-05T08:19:33Z drainful: terrible idea, but you could
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2020-03-05T08:20:39Z no-defun-allowed: Typically whatever doesn't produce an error; some C compilers can "type check" printf arguments against the string, so printf("%f", 2) would be an error.
2020-03-05T08:20:57Z trittweiler: IDEs do offer ways to quickly fix such things after input from the user. Some things, mostly stylistic things with a clear guarantee of preserving semantics, can also be applied automatically by tooling. See `clang-tidy -fixit` etc.
2020-03-05T08:21:18Z no-defun-allowed: The intention was either that the argument should have been a float, or that the format string should have been "%d", but since it is a constant, the latter is more likely.
2020-03-05T08:21:24Z no-defun-allowed: Or put in other terms, gimme DWIM
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2020-03-05T08:28:37Z drainful: As long as its explicit when these assumptions are made. A lot of people would prefer that on the IDE level I think, which is often done. If it just does what it thinks you mean every time, spitting a warning for ambiguous code into the log without editing your source code, then the code becomes much harder to
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2020-03-05T10:13:38Z aeth: When is ELS?
2020-03-05T10:14:13Z beach: April 27th and 28th.
2020-03-05T10:14:43Z no-defun-allowed: https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2020/index.html has the details of this year's ELS.
2020-03-05T10:15:35Z aeth: Oh, yeah, that's soon so I guess coronavirus will hurt attendance, especially since it's big in Italy
2020-03-05T10:16:10Z beach: Zürich is not in Italy.
2020-03-05T10:16:35Z aeth: Neighboring. I guess not as close as it seems because of all of the mountains in between, though
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2020-03-05T10:23:38Z splittist: Are folks anticipating arriving in Zurich on Saturday rather than Sunday for ELS?
2020-03-05T10:24:04Z beach: We will be there much earlier.  Let me check...
2020-03-05T10:24:27Z Shinmera: splittist: there's typically a small event on the Sunday before the event.
2020-03-05T10:24:29Z beach: Friday around noon.
2020-03-05T10:24:58Z beach: And we stay until Thursday April 30.
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2020-03-05T12:37:44Z jmercouris: I'm so tired of the C++ tyranny we live under
2020-03-05T12:38:06Z jmercouris: when can we use clasp :D?
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2020-03-05T12:42:41Z beach: I don't feel any such tyranny.
2020-03-05T12:43:48Z jmercouris: I sure do, I'm running an OS programmed in C, on an X86 progress, with a bunch of C++ programs
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2020-03-05T12:46:46Z beach: That's true.  I suppose the programs that crash or misbehave might be written in C++.
2020-03-05T12:47:27Z Duuqnd: I'm currently developing a game in Common Lisp and nearly all my significant problems come from the C libraries I use.
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2020-03-05T12:48:56Z jmercouris: I'm also facing significant problems with some C++ libraries I have to interact with
2020-03-05T12:49:00Z beach refrains from saying the obvious. 
2020-03-05T12:49:08Z jmercouris: something something CLIM :-D
2020-03-05T12:49:16Z beach: "have to"?
2020-03-05T12:49:28Z beach: jmercouris: It's a choice.
2020-03-05T12:49:33Z jmercouris: well sure, if i had 10 million dollars, I could choose not to
2020-03-05T12:49:42Z jmercouris: but since I do not, well, here we are :-)
2020-03-05T12:49:52Z beach: Where does such a number come from?
2020-03-05T12:50:02Z jmercouris: that's a low estimate for writing a simple web renderer
2020-03-05T12:50:08Z jmercouris: from the ground up in CL
2020-03-05T12:50:18Z beach: But you don't have to write any code at all.  That's a choice too.
2020-03-05T12:50:19Z jmercouris: Consider how long Mozilla spent on Servo
2020-03-05T12:50:27Z jmercouris: OK, fair enough, these are all choices
2020-03-05T12:50:34Z beach: Exactly.
2020-03-05T12:50:38Z Duuqnd: I need to use C libraries to get access to OpenGL and the stuff surrounding it. Rewriting from scratch isn't always an option.
2020-03-05T12:51:14Z jmercouris: I mean it is *technically* an option
2020-03-05T12:51:21Z jmercouris: practically speaking, it is not an option
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2020-03-05T14:30:05Z p_l: thodg_: if you don't have a registered nickname with services, only Ops see your messages. This is a temporary measure due to raging spambots
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2020-03-05T15:30:19Z p_l has set mode -q $-a
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2020-03-05T15:47:39Z thodg: Hello
2020-03-05T15:47:53Z thodg: this registration requirement is hard
2020-03-05T15:48:14Z thodg: is IRC doomed ?
2020-03-05T15:50:39Z ecraven: no
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2020-03-05T15:51:34Z phoe: thodg: not really hard, /msg nickserv help should get you up and running
2020-03-05T15:51:49Z phoe: if anything, IRC is a victim of its own success now that freenode spambots are rampaging
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2020-03-05T15:56:37Z p_l: I removed it just now
2020-03-05T15:56:51Z jackdaniel: you've removed freenode?
2020-03-05T15:56:54Z jackdaniel: @s
2020-03-05T15:57:13Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
2020-03-05T15:57:17Z jackdaniel: ekhm, last message was weird accidential keypress not involving 'return'
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2020-03-05T16:01:25Z phoe: freenode was removed
2020-03-05T16:01:40Z phoe: we are officially moving to quakenet, just as the prophecie^Wspambots foretold
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2020-03-05T16:09:08Z thodg: so i was trying to spam ANSI C to rescue garbage collected real time needs
2020-03-05T16:09:18Z thodg: https://rtbuf.kmx.io/
2020-03-05T16:10:33Z thodg: I want to structure game programming with audio and opengl rendering in C/rtbuf and higher level constructs through a binary I/O protocol giving Common Lisp and other garbage collected programming languages real time abilities
2020-03-05T16:11:22Z thodg: this would give us some slack regarding C++ domination
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2020-03-05T16:15:49Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: are the libraries c++ you've complained about all web renderers?
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2020-03-05T16:19:32Z jayspeer: sorry if this was answered previously - why is #lisp moving from freenode to quakenet? I'm out of the loop
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2020-03-05T16:19:55Z jackdaniel: jayspeer: nobody is moving
2020-03-05T16:20:23Z jackdaniel: phoe was joking in reference to a recent spambot incident
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2020-03-05T16:25:20Z jayspeer: jackdaniel: oh, thanks. I got really confused for a few minutes
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2020-03-05T16:27:34Z jackdaniel: sure; I suppose I'm to be blamed for joking that freenode has been removed :)
2020-03-05T16:28:09Z jayspeer: a little of humor is always welcome :)
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2020-03-05T16:58:36Z aeth: What if #lisp moved to common-lispnet, though? :p
2020-03-05T16:59:12Z jackdaniel: I suppose some people would be on both and some would spread across two places
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2020-03-05T16:59:54Z dlowe: bridgebots... bridgebots everywhere.
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2020-03-05T17:29:12Z rpg: Is there any interest in adding a PARTITION function (like the one in ARNESI) to ALEXANDRIA?
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2020-03-05T18:41:09Z Posterdati: hi
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2020-03-05T18:42:47Z Posterdati: is there anyone interested in provide 3 virtual machines to test gsll/antik, cffi and iolib under NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD?
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2020-03-05T18:43:35Z sjl: rpg: I  think one reason alexandria doesn't add much any more is that a lot of people (:use :alexandria), which means that if they add a new exported symbol it would break people's code if they've already got a PARTITION symbol in their package.
2020-03-05T18:43:54Z sjl: (which is why :use'ing a package you don't control is a bad idea, but here we are)
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2020-03-05T18:45:53Z jackdaniel: maybe alexandria should create a new package, i.e alexandria+, and clearly state in documentation, that list of exported symbols in this package may be extended (so that it is not a good idea to USE it)
2020-03-05T18:46:23Z rpg: sjl: Yes, I saw something to that effect on the ALEXANDRIA web site.  I see the point, but it also means that the idea of Alexandria being the go-to utility library can't work because ... now we will need an ALEXANDRIA2 library...  Actually, I wonder if one could make an ALEXANDRIA2 *package* and have programmers just choose whether or not to use them both or just ALEXANDRIA.  Inelegant, but less inelegant than having to spawn a second utilities library.
2020-03-05T18:46:24Z jackdaniel: n.b, alexandria would /use/ alexandria+ (ha ha)
2020-03-05T18:46:59Z rpg: jackdaniel: I think we were both typing the same idea simultaneously!
2020-03-05T18:47:08Z jackdaniel: :)
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2020-03-05T18:48:13Z jackdaniel: n.b, as ASDF maintainer I thought you'd propose uiop as the utlity library "to rule them all"
2020-03-05T18:48:28Z sjl: Yes, creating a separate alexandria-dont-USE-this-dammit package would work.
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2020-03-05T18:54:35Z rpg: jackdaniel: Nope.  UIOP provides functionality mostly for OS and IMPLEMENTATION portability, and some related tasks like handling configuration files.  I don't want it to grow to be a general utility library.  Of course, it has ended up having in it the utilities *it* needs.  And almost everything is exported.
2020-03-05T18:55:16Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks for elaborating
2020-03-05T18:55:17Z rpg: I feel like in honor of Bjarne Stroustrop, it should be ALEXANDRIA++
2020-03-05T18:55:39Z rpg: Or perhaps YA-ALEXANDRIA
2020-03-05T18:56:09Z rpg: LIBRARY-OF-CONGRESS? BRITISH-LIBRARY? VATICAn_LIBRARY?
2020-03-05T18:56:51Z jackdaniel: to sustain a bad naming tradition in our ecosystem, it should be called trivial-library ;-)
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2020-03-05T19:06:00Z rpg: I want to start making NON-TRIVIAL- libraries.
2020-03-05T19:06:34Z jackdaniel: #clim invites you to collaborate :)
2020-03-05T19:09:03Z rpg: Package nickname NON-TRIVIAL-DISPLAY-MANAGER
2020-03-05T19:10:38Z phoe: rpg: there is, to the point where I added such a function to phoe-toolbox.
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2020-03-05T19:11:09Z rpg: phoe: I ended up copy-pasting the BESE definition, but it made me feel ugly.
2020-03-05T19:11:12Z phoe: But everyone has already explained why adding PARTITION to ALEXANDRIA would cause literal HAVOC for Xach when he tries to build the next quicklisp dist.
2020-03-05T19:11:37Z phoe: Like, all packages that (:use :alexandria :serapeum) will stop building, period.
2020-03-05T19:11:38Z rpg: phoe: Yeah, but I like ALEXANDRIA+:PARTITION
2020-03-05T19:11:52Z phoe: That's... a nice solution.
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2020-03-05T19:12:27Z phoe: ;; I remember shitposting about so many utility libraries named after actual libraries. Alexandria, Serapeum, Constantia, Cesarum...
2020-03-05T19:12:37Z rpg: phoe: The first rule of Alexandria+ is "don't USE Alexandria+"
2020-03-05T19:13:04Z phoe: XD
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2020-03-05T19:16:11Z jackdaniel: don't shitpost, I'm sure there are better ways to point out issues
2020-03-05T19:18:28Z phoe: I am aware, I need to actually make some effort and grow up instead.
2020-03-05T19:19:07Z phoe: People don't really need to see the shitposting side of me to read what I have to say about Lisp issues.
2020-03-05T19:20:21Z jackdaniel: (defpackage "Przemyska biblioteka publiczna" …) sounds like a plan too
2020-03-05T19:23:06Z phoe: (|Przemyska biblioteka publiczna|:partition #'evenp '(0 1 2 3 4 5))
2020-03-05T19:23:15Z phoe: 10/10 would import
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2020-03-05T19:24:37Z jackdaniel: right?
2020-03-05T19:25:30Z sjl: alexandria is surely popular enough to deserve the most concise package name around: ""
2020-03-05T19:25:42Z sjl: (||:partition #'evenp)
2020-03-05T19:26:10Z jackdaniel: that's actually reserved for the keyword package
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2020-03-05T19:26:45Z sjl: no, KEYWORD is the keyword package...
2020-03-05T19:27:20Z sjl: https://paste.stevelosh.com/1f95379a1d9fe700b638b896bed12b1e4c3bcf69
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2020-03-05T19:27:59Z Bike: finally, some reasonable syntax
2020-03-05T19:28:47Z jackdaniel: sjl: it is not conforming code, let me look for the passage in the spec
2020-03-05T19:28:48Z sjl: (defpackage "ALEX&RIA") perfect, even shorter
2020-03-05T19:30:47Z jackdaniel: (it may take a while, I don't remember which passage it is)
2020-03-05T19:31:36Z fouric: why not just (defpackage "A")
2020-03-05T19:31:52Z fouric: go all the way to the minimum
2020-03-05T19:32:08Z fouric: i suspect that many people use that package-local nickname for it, at least
2020-03-05T19:32:51Z sjl: clhs 11.1.2.3
2020-03-05T19:32:52Z specbot: The KEYWORD Package: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abc.htm
2020-03-05T19:33:02Z sjl: > Symbol tokens that start with a package marker are parsed by the Lisp reader as symbols in the KEYWORD package
2020-03-05T19:33:10Z sjl: ||:foo doesn't start with a package markekr
2020-03-05T19:33:23Z jackdaniel: I don't mean this section
2020-03-05T19:34:23Z jackdaniel: from my vague memory, it is stated /somewhere/: conforming implementation is allowed to define the keyword package nickname to "" (and that actually makes the reader slightly easier to write)
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2020-03-05T19:35:46Z Shinmera: I looked in a bunch of places and could not find anything
2020-03-05T19:35:56Z Shinmera: another section states that the keyword package has no nicknames, so
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2020-03-05T19:36:01Z jackdaniel: hm
2020-03-05T19:37:07Z Shinmera: I suppose an implementation might do it like that, but I'm not sure the spce has to explicitly allow it.
2020-03-05T19:37:22Z p_l: few implementations do exactly that
2020-03-05T19:37:23Z sjl: clhs 11.1.2
2020-03-05T19:37:23Z specbot: Standardized Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_ab.htm
2020-03-05T19:37:40Z sjl: Name              Nicknames
2020-03-05T19:37:42Z sjl: KEYWORD           none
2020-03-05T19:38:05Z p_l: seems to me like acceptable break there
2020-03-05T19:38:23Z p_l: also, it doesn't mean they *can't* have more, from casual reading
2020-03-05T19:38:24Z jackdaniel: if I find it some day I'll come back triumphant ,)
2020-03-05T19:38:42Z phoe: fouric: (:local-nicknames (#:a #:alexandria))
2020-03-05T19:38:43Z sjl: obviously alexandria using || would be ridiculous, but yeah, if you find where it says it can't then post it :)
2020-03-05T19:39:40Z phoe: (defpackage #.(format nil "~C" #\Nul) (:use :cl))
2020-03-05T19:40:01Z phoe: have fun
2020-03-05T19:40:10Z fouric: phoe: exactly, everyone does it - might as well make it the actual package nam
2020-03-05T19:40:22Z fouric: hmmm, unicode is allowed in package names, right?
2020-03-05T19:40:24Z phoe: fouric: the actual package name is ALEXANDRIA.DEV.0
2020-03-05T19:40:29Z fouric: could you do a non-breaking space?
2020-03-05T19:40:32Z fouric: oh, TIL
2020-03-05T19:41:59Z _death: you could also go the other way around and export alexandria:unuse-package, which would be a shadowed symbol not eq to cl:unuse-package.. this will show them :users
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2020-03-05T19:43:48Z phoe: _death: I see that the number of lispers is not low enough for you
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2020-03-05T21:56:44Z pjb: If you want a frozen export list, you can (:use "ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0") instead of (:use "ALEXANDRIA").
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2020-03-05T21:58:08Z pjb: Perhaps "ALEXANDRIA" should have been named "ALEXANDRIA-WITH-UNFROZEN-EXPORT-LIST", but lispers usually assume that lispers are smart…
2020-03-05T21:58:40Z pjb: The more I live, the more I realize that assuming people are smart, or even intelligent is an error.
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2020-03-05T22:01:27Z pjb: sjl: "" is a nickname added to the "KEYWORD" package in clisp; it's a kludge.  But it's conforming: an implementation can have implementation-specific packages and package nicknames.
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2020-03-05T22:02:25Z pjb: phoe: using #\nul in lisp sources, if it can be read by the implementation, should pose no problem, as long as the editor can deal with it.
2020-03-05T22:02:55Z pjb: phoe: note, emacs deals with it just right and nice:
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2020-03-05T22:13:23Z phoe: ...and ten minutes later, there were no more posts from pjb
2020-03-05T22:13:34Z phoe: the best proof that what he was saying was true
2020-03-05T22:13:46Z phoe: even if his emacs session did not live to tell the tale™
2020-03-05T22:13:52Z phoe mic drops, goes to #lispcafe
2020-03-05T22:14:32Z phoe: pjb: "If you want a frozen export list" don't tell that to me, tell that to literally every piece of code that goes :use :alexandria
2020-03-05T22:14:41Z phoe: and there's hundreds of packages like that.
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2020-03-05T22:21:41Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: please don't use the Unlicence, since it's unclear if it's allowed to waive copyright like that
2020-03-05T22:21:53Z fe[nl]ix: just use the MIT licence
2020-03-05T22:22:45Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: CC0
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2020-03-05T22:23:00Z aeth: Yes, CC0 is more legally bulletproof than Unlicense, probably.
2020-03-05T22:23:02Z sjl: CC0 is a good choice
2020-03-05T22:23:11Z aeth: CC0 is probably a good fit for documentation.
2020-03-05T22:23:19Z Odin-: MIT simply doesn't do the same thing, and doesn't even purport to do the same thing.
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2020-03-05T22:26:55Z fe[nl]ix: I don't think CC0 is suitable for code
2020-03-05T22:26:56Z fe[nl]ix: see https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/133/how-could-using-code-released-under-cc0-infringe-on-the-authors-patents
2020-03-05T22:27:06Z Odin-: It's entirely appropriate for code.
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2020-03-05T22:28:10Z aeth: Software patents are an issue with the US legal system. Building a permanent international license around a particular, temporary issue in the US legal system doesn't seem necessary.
2020-03-05T22:29:02Z aeth: No one even wants software patents. The issue is that the legislatures have to find a way to exclude software patents while keeping the conceptually similar pharma patents because the latter industry has deep pockets.
2020-03-05T22:29:05Z fe[nl]ix: it's not that temporary, and US-based contributors are many
2020-03-05T22:29:06Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: That article seems to presume that not mentioning patents is any kind of protection.
2020-03-05T22:29:14Z fe[nl]ix: so it is a concern to me
2020-03-05T22:29:15Z Odin-: fe[nl]ix: That's simply incorrect.
2020-03-05T22:29:35Z fe[nl]ix: what ?
2020-03-05T22:29:53Z Odin-: Licences that do not mention patents, like MIT, do not protect you against patents either.
2020-03-05T22:30:04Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: If (almost) no one in the software industry wants software patents, then, yes, they're a temporary legal issue that will eventually go away.
2020-03-05T22:30:14Z Odin-: It would only be if the licence _specifically_ states that patent rights are granted.
2020-03-05T22:30:51Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: good luck with that, there's no possibility in sight that they will be eliminated in the US
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2020-03-05T22:31:42Z Odin-: That only leaves copyleft licences.
2020-03-05T22:32:57Z Odin-: Basically, software patents are a risk, no matter the copyright licence.
2020-03-05T22:33:25Z Odin-: (Some copyright licences double as patent licences, however.)
2020-03-05T22:33:39Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: The US software industry itself doesn't want software patents. Thus, they will go away eventually. The last thing the US wants is to give up its edge in software to another country. It's a national security issue.
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2020-03-05T22:34:27Z Odin-: Dunno, patent trolling is a very effective fundraising strategy for major companies.
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2020-03-05T23:51:13Z phoe: fe[nl]ix: OK, I'll relicense them tomorrow.
2020-03-05T23:51:58Z phoe: I chose it for TPLN since it contains SBCL code, which is public domain. And Unlicense is literally a public domain license.
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2020-03-06T01:54:13Z fe[nl]ix: phoe: sounds good
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2020-03-06T03:32:19Z no-defun-allowed: What type specifies that an array has a fill pointer and is adjustable?
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2020-03-06T03:32:25Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL seems to use (and array (not simple-array))
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2020-03-06T03:32:56Z Bike: there isn't one, short of satisfies. an implementation could allow simple-arrays with adjustability and/or fill pointers
2020-03-06T03:33:00Z Bike: sbcl doesn't
2020-03-06T03:34:14Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer.
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2020-03-06T03:36:53Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
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2020-03-06T07:51:12Z Posterdati: hi! Is there anyone interested in provide 3 virtual machines to test gsll/antik, cffi and iolib under NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD? Thanks for help!
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2020-03-06T07:52:49Z no-defun-allowed: I hate to be rude, but what prevents you from setting up virtual machines?
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2020-03-06T08:11:26Z phoe: Posterdati: https://man.sr.ht/builds.sr.ht/compatibility.md can provide you with FreeBSD and OpenBSD
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2020-03-06T08:15:03Z Posterdati: phoe: hi! What is this?
2020-03-06T08:15:15Z phoe: builds.sr.ht is a CI service
2020-03-06T08:15:39Z phoe: they can run VMs along with descriptions of what they need to build, and then they build stuff.
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2020-03-06T08:16:04Z Posterdati: phoe: quicklisp packages too?
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2020-03-06T08:16:33Z phoe: Posterdati: they aren't suited for Lisp, I think you'll need to manually instruct a VM to install a Lisp image and download+install Quicklisp.
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2020-03-06T08:21:34Z Posterdati: ok, this is not free
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2020-03-06T10:53:16Z Krystof: I saw https://blog.repl.it/clui and thought of CLIM
2020-03-06T10:54:36Z scymtym: slyrus__ in #clim thought the same
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2020-03-06T11:03:32Z lieven too
2020-03-06T11:03:41Z Odin-: Well, that would seem to be in line with Lisp being consistently a couple of decades ahead of the curve.
2020-03-06T11:04:10Z lieven: as far as I can tell, it doesn't have the typed output and representation stuff so CLIM is still ahead
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2020-03-06T11:08:29Z jackdaniel: to be precise, presentations and typed output predate clim
2020-03-06T11:10:17Z jackdaniel: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AITR-794.pdf
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2020-03-06T11:13:16Z Odin-: It seems to me like it's kinda difficult to pull apart Lisp(y) notions of interfaces and the evolution of Emacs.
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2020-03-06T11:33:48Z makomo: hello
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2020-03-06T12:48:55Z paule32: hello
2020-03-06T12:49:08Z paule32: why i am banned from cl-school ?
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2020-03-06T12:50:26Z paule32: i have a list: '(the ('men '(is '(big))))
2020-03-06T12:50:34Z jackdaniel: [just a guess based on historical observations] probably because you've been asking for advice and not following it (hence waisting other people time)
2020-03-06T12:51:42Z paule32: how can i make a question with "how" (how was the men) -> (is big) ?
2020-03-06T12:51:52Z Shinmera: better question: why is he not banned from here, too?
2020-03-06T12:52:34Z thodg: paule32: you should read the CLHS about list functions
2020-03-06T12:52:34Z ChanServ has set mode +o Shinmera
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2020-03-06T12:53:24Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: So you want me to do the dirty work, eh
2020-03-06T12:53:43Z jackdaniel pretends he knows nothing about this
2020-03-06T12:54:56Z jackdaniel: eh, nick "Pilate" is already in use
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2020-03-06T13:09:40Z schweers: Is there a recommended way to load a text file as a string at compile-time or load-time?  I want to load a SQL file, which resides in the source tree, into the lisp image.  I’m pretty sure I once did something similar, but it wasn’t exactly pretty and I don’t remember the details.
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2020-03-06T13:11:37Z phoe: schweers: load-time? that's defparameter over alexandria:read-file-into-string
2020-03-06T13:11:55Z Shinmera: (load-time-value (make-my-foo))
2020-03-06T13:12:21Z jackdaniel: (defvar *string* #.(alexandria:read-file-into-string …))
2020-03-06T13:12:25Z _death: consider doing it at runtime and caching the result
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2020-03-06T13:15:28Z jackdaniel: I'd like to do it like (copy-file #P"/foo/bar.sql" #P"virtual:my-app;resources;file.sql")
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2020-03-06T13:19:25Z _death: you could always "fill the cache" and dump an image
2020-03-06T13:19:33Z phoe: virtual Lisp filesystems integrated into the pathname system... aaaah
2020-03-06T13:20:25Z pjb: or when you generate the saved lisp image!
2020-03-06T13:20:39Z pjb: (this can be a different time than compile or load which would be performed by quicklisp).
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2020-03-06T13:22:21Z pjb: jackdaniel: for this, you want a virtual file system in the lisp image.  I started to implement such a thing (without gray stream, which means re-implementing the whole chapters 19 and 20…  You could do it with gray stream this week-end…  https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/future/vfs
2020-03-06T13:23:13Z jackdaniel: pjb: I've seen your repository some time ago, it was very informative (thank you)
2020-03-06T13:23:39Z pjb: Actually, you would still need to implement most of those chapters, if you want to be able to use similar operations to deal with those virtual pathnames and virtual files…
2020-03-06T13:23:49Z pjb: This is another part of CL that would need a good HOOK.
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2020-03-06T13:41:02Z ebrasca: Can you load some lybrary as some list/tree?
2020-03-06T13:41:56Z phoe: what do you mean, as some list/tree?
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2020-03-06T13:42:58Z schweers: Okay, so there is not /one/ recommended way to do it ;)
2020-03-06T13:43:17Z schweers: Thanks for the answers, I’ll check which suits my needs best.
2020-03-06T13:43:47Z schweers: asdf’s :static-file has nothing to do with this, right?
2020-03-06T13:43:54Z Shinmera: right.
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2020-03-06T13:47:53Z ebrasca: phoe: Load some lybrary as list to be able to search duplicated code.
2020-03-06T13:49:02Z jackdaniel: sort-of naive code walking?
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2020-03-06T13:52:36Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: I think yes
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2020-03-06T13:55:37Z ebrasca is lost in the infinite sea , he wonder what to do.
2020-03-06T13:58:00Z phoe: ebrasca: I think it is not doable with ASDF. You'd need to write your own tool for that.
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2020-03-06T14:03:09Z pjb: Well, you can define methods on asdf operations to be able to read the source without loading it.
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2020-03-06T14:03:27Z pjb: You would want to do that to benefit from the load-in-order and loading of dependencies provided by asdf.
2020-03-06T14:03:47Z pjb: But note also that reading sources in lisp may requires some loading and/or some compiling!
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2020-03-06T14:03:59Z pjb: So it's easier to just load it.
2020-03-06T14:04:14Z pjb: ebrasca: see for example how documentation extractors do it.
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2020-03-06T14:05:52Z pjb: If you wanted to read lisp sources without loading them you would have to 1- implement your own reader (or use com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader). 2- implement the reading of things that are not lisp objects, such as #+/#- conditionals or #. expressions.
2020-03-06T14:06:51Z pjb: ebrasca: For example, you could want to detect that some library contains code that is compiled and loaded on some specific systems on some specific platform, that is duplicate with some other library on the same system and platform, but not on a different system or platform.
2020-03-06T14:07:26Z pjb: Or you can also just implement some naive tool that will break on special cases, but that will work on 80% of the lisp sources around.
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2020-03-06T14:08:23Z pjb: In the later case, you don't care about the reading of source files in a library in any specific oder.  Just take the source files and read them, and fold when an error occurs.
2020-03-06T14:09:49Z pjb: ebrasca: you could want at minima, to interpret the defpackage and in-package forms, since this will be needed to read qualified symbols and symbols in the right package, but even that, in a naive tool, you could just not do it. (just read everything in your own package).
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2020-03-06T14:15:14Z ebrasca: pjb: My idea is to read some lybraries and reduce duplication.
2020-03-06T14:16:06Z pjb: have a look at https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/tools
2020-03-06T14:16:35Z jackdaniel: libraries*
2020-03-06T14:17:04Z pjb: an alternative would be to indeed compile and load the libraries, but use ibcl to keep track of the sources, that you can then process once they are loaded.
2020-03-06T14:17:20Z pjb: ebrasca: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/
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2020-03-06T14:33:39Z ebrasca: I have think what if there is are variations , they make it harder.
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2020-03-06T14:40:34Z pjb: ebrasca: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_code#Detecting_duplicate_code
2020-03-06T14:41:02Z pjb: University professors have researched the problem to detect automatically copier students…
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2020-03-06T14:43:30Z ebrasca: Maybe with my duplicated code detector I may be able to meke new common lisp ( NCL )
2020-03-06T14:45:03Z Xach: ebrasca: yes
2020-03-06T14:46:36Z jackdaniel: NIL, please call it NIL, and add :NIL to features!
2020-03-06T14:47:04Z ebrasca: lol
2020-03-06T14:47:05Z jackdaniel: and name the extension package NILE
2020-03-06T14:47:43Z jackdaniel: NIL (newly implemented lisp)
2020-03-06T14:50:01Z White_Flame: The next version should be from the general community, so calling it Community Lisp (CL) won't be confusing at all
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2020-03-06T14:51:49Z jackdaniel hopes for the hell breaking loose from all #+nil foobar sources
2020-03-06T14:52:49Z edgar-rft: you mean this? -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIL_(programming_language)
2020-03-06T14:55:04Z ebrasca: Then Community Lisp (CL) it is.
2020-03-06T14:55:19Z ebrasca: I don't like to generate confusion.
2020-03-06T14:56:06Z edgar-rft: let's get infected with Corona Lisp
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2020-03-06T14:57:49Z montxero: Most people who get infected with any (because there are multiple different strains in the familiy) corona virus will survive it.
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2020-03-06T14:58:47Z edgar-rft: how bad
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2020-03-06T14:59:13Z montxero: lol, nobody has survived life yet... don't give up yet
2020-03-06T14:59:42Z White_Flame: is it too late for me to release Ebolisp?
2020-03-06T15:00:45Z phoe: the file extension will be EBOLisp Applicaton = *.ebola
2020-03-06T15:01:19Z montxero: hahahahahahaha
2020-03-06T15:02:20Z montxero: apparently there is a cure for that: if you are British or American
2020-03-06T15:02:51Z montxero: But damn... think of all the devices that will be quarantined..
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2020-03-06T15:04:09Z jackdaniel: jokes which drag for too long shall go to lispcafe (and yes, I'm aware I've started it)
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2020-03-06T15:05:14Z White_Flame: but you're not even in there!
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2020-03-06T15:06:27Z jackdaniel: shh
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2020-03-06T15:16:57Z pjb: ebrasca: The Community Lisp = TCL ;-)
2020-03-06T15:17:42Z pjb: White_Flame: I have a library named listerine.
2020-03-06T15:19:32Z pjb: (it mixes Java and Lisp, so the name is justified ;-)
2020-03-06T15:21:05Z montxero: lol
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2020-03-06T15:24:19Z montxero: I am looking for an application written in common lisp that I can contribute to.  I am not a programming rock star or anything like it.  I don't trust myself with macros, (although I have written programs which generate programs in sagemath+python).  Any advice for a noob?
2020-03-06T15:25:05Z montxero: On the sagemath+python programs, I wish I could do those in commonlisp but alas time is
2020-03-06T15:25:18Z montxero: time is a cruel b***h
2020-03-06T15:25:36Z Xach: montxero: i have a program that scrapes github for common lisp repos. i wrote it a long time ago and it screws up on unicode characters. do you have any interest in fixing it so it works properly and uses utf-8?
2020-03-06T15:25:44Z beach: montxero: Do you want an existing application, or something new.  For new things, I recommend you look at metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2020-03-06T15:27:41Z montxero: Xach, I would love to take a look!  I might be a bit slow at first, because of current commitments, but I will definately take a look at it!
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2020-03-06T15:27:57Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/ghprojects is it
2020-03-06T15:28:24Z montxero: beach: I'll glance at the site, but Xach has given me someting concrete, so I'll run with his now
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2020-03-06T15:28:35Z beach: Sure.
2020-03-06T15:28:38Z montxero: beach:  thanks
2020-03-06T15:28:55Z montxero: Xach: I'm all over it now
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2020-03-06T15:29:41Z montxero:  It was written hastily and without didactic
2020-03-06T15:29:41Z montxero: value in mind.
2020-03-06T15:29:41Z montxero: Story of my life
2020-03-06T15:29:52Z ebrasca: montxero: I recomend you to contribute to Mezzano OS ( https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano )
2020-03-06T15:30:17Z Xach: https://twitter.com/NewLispRepos/status/1235886355911237633 is an example of the gross output of ghprojects
2020-03-06T15:30:35Z montxero: ebrasca: I am a noob, I don't think I can do any os type hacking
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2020-03-06T15:34:44Z Xach: montxero: i don't think it's too bad, it's mostly just reading stuff and writing stuff.
2020-03-06T15:35:25Z gabc: montxero: I had some fun hacking on lem :)
2020-03-06T15:35:55Z montxero: Xach: The repo looks small enough for me to grok, I will be happy to start with it
2020-03-06T15:37:06Z montxero: gabc: Great! I've heard of it. I don't think I'll be much use there for now.
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2020-03-06T15:39:15Z montxero: Now I have 3 things to do... One of them is working on utf-8 handling in ghprojects.  Anymore and something must give.
2020-03-06T15:39:38Z montxero: Say, does anyone here have any idea on Positive observers?
2020-03-06T15:39:51Z gabc: You'll see what you can do, don't pressure yourself too much either :)
2020-03-06T15:40:10Z Xach: montxero: what is Positive observers?
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2020-03-06T15:41:58Z montxero: Observers designed for positive systems.  It is a niche field in control theory.
2020-03-06T15:42:56Z montxero: Wait a sec,  I'll explain
2020-03-06T15:43:25Z montxero: A positive system is a dynamical system with the distinct property that its state
2020-03-06T15:43:25Z montxero: variables are always nonnegative.
2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: A simple example of a positive system is the human endocrine system. At every
2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: point in time, the quantity of any given hormone in a person is always nonnegative.
2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: Indeed it is absurd to consider the possibility of a negative quantity of insulin in
2020-03-06T15:43:41Z montxero: the body.
2020-03-06T15:44:38Z White_Flame: I wouldn't think that data observers in such a system would necessarily care about the values being constrained to being positive.  The mechanics of observation should be exactly the same
2020-03-06T15:45:02Z ebrasca: I think you can make sence of negative quantity.
2020-03-06T15:45:39Z montxero: White_Flame: Actually, it matters a lot
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2020-03-06T15:46:11Z montxero: A quick intro to observers can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_observer
2020-03-06T15:47:02Z White_Flame: ok, this is derived state
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2020-03-06T15:47:12Z montxero: One of the uses of an observer is to estimate the unavailable states for the purpose of designing a controller.
2020-03-06T15:47:29Z montxero: For a positive systems, the control inputs are always nonnegative.
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2020-03-06T15:47:43Z White_Flame: I wouldn't necessarily use the term "observer" on its own in general programming
2020-03-06T15:47:50Z White_Flame: if this is the meaning
2020-03-06T15:48:08Z White_Flame: "state observer" already parses as a visitor-style direct reading construct
2020-03-06T15:48:23Z montxero: If the observer generates a negative estimate, the controller will give a wrong (possibly catastrophic) input to the system
2020-03-06T15:48:40Z White_Flame: yeah, estimator or extrapolator would be good words
2020-03-06T15:48:41Z montxero: Yes, sorry... I meant observer in control theory
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2020-03-06T15:49:01Z Bike: as opposed to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_pattern, which is what i think of when i hear "observer" in programming
2020-03-06T15:49:02Z montxero: I had to try...
2020-03-06T15:49:05Z Bike: control theory is cooler than this, though
2020-03-06T15:49:29Z montxero: Bike: yeah, not that kind of observer
2020-03-06T15:49:36Z Bike: unfortunately i'm not doing a lot of control theory at my day job
2020-03-06T15:50:33Z Bike: i also don't immediately understand what makes positive systems particularly special, since if you estimate a kidney has a liter of cortisone in it that will probably also cause some catastrophic weirdness
2020-03-06T15:51:12Z White_Flame: or if the expectation is -0.00001 is it really catastrophic?
2020-03-06T15:51:22Z White_Flame: s/expectation/estimation/
2020-03-06T15:52:28Z montxero: Bike: When we know a system is positive, we can make certain acertaions about it.  E.g, it's state's will never be negative.  A lot of biological, chemical, engineering, economic systems have this property
2020-03-06T15:53:05Z montxero: Some key principles and theorems from control theory, do not apply to positive systems
2020-03-06T15:53:09Z Bike: Sure, but you can also assume there's not a liter of anything in something the size of a human kidney.
2020-03-06T15:53:12Z montxero: they just break down
2020-03-06T15:53:26Z Bike: Like, why positive specifically? Why not just specify a range or something?
2020-03-06T15:53:36Z montxero: Things like the separation principle do not hold
2020-03-06T15:54:22Z montxero: Bike: because we are dealing with a broad class of systems.. we want general solutions that can be applied to a wide class of systems
2020-03-06T15:55:44Z montxero: you do not want to create an automatic flight control system that will work on only boeings, you make the theories and methodologies that applies to flight systems which fit certain criteria
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2020-03-06T15:56:01Z montxero: then boeing can specialise it for their planes as can everyone else
2020-03-06T15:56:29Z Bike: i don't get why "can't be less than zero" is more important than "can't be less than this particular number", but it's not my field i guess
2020-03-06T15:57:11Z montxero: Because, nonnegative, has some deep deep mathemaical implications
2020-03-06T15:57:45Z montxero: to make a simple example with linear systems
2020-03-06T15:58:01Z montxero: Linear systems defined on R^n are just linear
2020-03-06T15:58:08Z _death: you can always offset, can you not?
2020-03-06T15:58:23Z montxero: but if we restrict the systems to be nonnegative, we define the system on a cone
2020-03-06T15:58:43Z montxero: once we bring in that cone... things start to get a bit tricky
2020-03-06T15:59:10Z montxero: _death: if we did, our treatment will not be complet, nor will it be correct
2020-03-06T15:59:38Z montxero: that is a programmers approach... no offence, it will not work in control theory
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2020-03-06T16:00:04Z _death: montxero: I mean with Bike's remark in mind..
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2020-03-06T16:02:25Z edgar-rft: let's all be positively depressed
2020-03-06T16:02:27Z montxero: Positive specifically, because that is how thoes phenomena present... processes involving chemical reactions, population, etc
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2020-03-06T16:02:43Z montxero: lol edgar-rft nay... we must stay positive
2020-03-06T16:03:25Z _death: I'm not sure what the question is, though.. you asked if anyone has an idea about something, which is not a technical question (and not related to Lisp...)
2020-03-06T16:03:32Z jackdaniel:   I'm wondering, where does it lead to
2020-03-06T16:03:37Z jackdaniel: basically what _death said
2020-03-06T16:05:33Z montxero: jackdaniel: I asked on the off chance someone here has some experience on the subject.  No offence meant, it wold've been nice
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2020-03-06T16:07:54Z montxero: On why an offset is not good enough, it is arbitrary.  For something like the amount of glucose present in a persons blood, setting some arbitrary upper and lower limit may exclude some viable (if improbable values)...
2020-03-06T16:09:28Z montxero: Also, if an observer for a positive system ever generates a nonnegative estimate, then such ``observer" is not an observer for the system in question period.
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2020-03-06T16:09:39Z _death: I think you misunderstand.. for example you can use the Kelvin scale for a temperature to get nonnegative values, or you can offset in a Celsius scale..
2020-03-06T16:10:21Z jackdaniel: either way, this seems to be offtopic on this channel
2020-03-06T16:10:21Z ebrasca: What about 0 < x <=100 % of your body?
2020-03-06T16:10:59Z jackdaniel: there is a designated channel for all offtopic discussions so let's focus on common lisp instead
2020-03-06T16:11:06Z montxero: _death: We can't play the same trick with hormones or chemical concentrations.  It must be airtight and analytical
2020-03-06T16:11:57Z montxero: jackdaniel: fair enough...  This ends my positive observer and control theory talk
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2020-03-06T16:44:16Z thodg: montxero: have a look at rails on lisp
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2020-03-06T16:45:23Z thodg: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/etd5q8/railsonlisp_github/
2020-03-06T16:45:44Z thodg: no home page or readme yet but it waits for developers
2020-03-06T16:45:52Z rpg: wasn't there also a "lisp on lines" reimplementation?
2020-03-06T16:46:10Z thodg: lol is dead in 2020
2020-03-06T16:46:58Z rpg: OK
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2020-03-06T16:48:17Z thodg: a sample RoL project : https://github.com/LowH/mentats
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2020-03-06T16:56:57Z ebrasca: What is RoL?
2020-03-06T16:59:00Z ebrasca: Rail...
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2020-03-06T17:04:32Z thodg: https://github.com/RailsOnLisp
2020-03-06T17:05:30Z ebrasca: Why RoL?
2020-03-06T17:06:05Z thodg: better than lor and its hard to put lisp on rails actually
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2020-03-06T17:06:29Z thodg: lisp is not a locomotive nor a wagon it seems
2020-03-06T17:06:54Z thodg: but it's much faster than ruby for sure
2020-03-06T17:07:00Z thodg: even load times
2020-03-06T17:07:18Z thodg: and my whole db fits in memory
2020-03-06T17:07:26Z thodg: very fast web development
2020-03-06T17:08:29Z thodg: i recently ported ruby objects to common lisp
2020-03-06T17:08:44Z thodg: i wonder if activerecord and such should be ported using ruby-objects
2020-03-06T17:09:43Z thodg: i have (class < super (private) (def my-method (args) ...)) syntax
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2020-03-06T17:29:22Z pjb: _death: ok, but assume a body is at temperature t0 K.  Assume you give it heat so that its temperature is now t1 K.  Now, if the heat you gave it was Δt/C such as Δt+t0=t1 and Δt>t1 (all in K).  Couldn't you say that its initial temperature t0 was negative?
2020-03-06T17:29:56Z pjb: _death: it's like negative resistors.  It's not possible in theory, but in practice, you can build electronic circuits that behave as if they were negative resistors.
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2020-03-06T17:30:41Z pjb: (of course, that body, and those electronic circuits, are not purely passive, to demonstrate those virtual negative grandeurs).
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2020-03-06T17:31:17Z pjb: But negative energy is also a thing.  Dark matter, dark energy, anti-particules, etc…
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2020-03-06T17:31:27Z Bike: i don't understand how you skipped both the part of the conversation leading to what death said, and the part afterward where it was decided to stop talking about it since it's off topic
2020-03-06T17:32:48Z pjb: Bike: I disagree it's off topic. It's a valid programming question.  For example, related to array indexing, 0-based in lisp.
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2020-03-06T17:59:12Z aeth: With a temperature type, you have a (actually several) system that gets you an objective 0 that you can't go below. Counting will also give you this, e.g. 0 marbles. Any arbitrary offset won't. This is absolutely a CL question of restricting the CL type imo.
2020-03-06T17:59:35Z aeth: It just got sidetracked a ton.
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2020-03-06T18:01:20Z pjb: aeth: again, with resistance it's the same. Negative resistance is a physical impossibility (with passive components).
2020-03-06T18:01:54Z pjb: that doesn't prevent us to design active circuits that demonstrate negative resistance.  You can also design active bodies that will demonstrate negative absolute temperature.
2020-03-06T18:03:10Z aeth: pjb: That's exactly the opposite of the issue, which is the advantages of staying nonnegative in programming afaik.
2020-03-06T18:04:22Z aeth: All that matters is that there is an objective 0 in some scale that cannot be gone below. Temperature has at least 2-3 of those scales, even though of course you can make your own or use F/C
2020-03-06T18:04:40Z pjb: which are none, basically, when you consider continuous (linear) systems.
2020-03-06T18:07:03Z pjb: Take universal times.  It's specified so that dates before 1900/01/01 00:00:00 GMT are not valid.  But already, note that implementations allow negative universal times, to support 1900/01/01 00:00:00 GMT-12 to GMT-1.  And note that the Gregorian calendar, while not universally adopted, was still already available in some places before that date, so negative universal time should have been perfectly valid, at least back to the 150
2020-03-06T18:07:39Z pjb: Ie. my argument is that disallowing negative values, most of the time, is just one more falacy believed by (bad) programmers.
2020-03-06T18:08:17Z aeth: This isn't using R (imagine that's fancy R), this is using some other number system, which CL can do e.g. (integer 0 *) and I think a different syntax for floats
2020-03-06T18:08:38Z aeth: Maybe not always efficiently because of all of the checks inserted...
2020-03-06T18:10:22Z aeth: Disallowing negative values is just the most used subset of CL's numeric type features other than getting a fixed integer size for algorithmic or interperability purposes.
2020-03-06T18:11:37Z aeth: Sure, you could do (integer 4 37) but that's less useful and less optimized so if you can change your scale to be (integer 0 64) you will produce better code (in optimizing implementations like SBCL)
2020-03-06T18:11:44Z pjb: take for example, sqrt.  You could say (assert (typep (sqrt x) '(real 0)))
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2020-03-06T18:12:51Z pjb: You'd be wrong. (sqrt -1), (sqrt #c(1 1)), etc.
2020-03-06T18:13:23Z aeth: Nonnegative scale lets the compiler at least potentially infer certain things without having to continually check. (* x y) remains nonnegative.
2020-03-06T18:13:24Z pjb: or simplier (assert (typep (square x) '(real 0)))  (square #c(0 1)) #| --> -1 |#
2020-03-06T18:13:43Z pjb: falacies.
2020-03-06T18:14:07Z semz: that has more to do with expanding the definition of a function to other domains than fallacies though
2020-03-06T18:14:44Z pjb: semz: yes, basic falacy.
2020-03-06T18:14:55Z aeth: pjb: I'm 90% sure the main reason you want nonnegative is so (* x y), (+ x y), (/ x y), etc. stay in the type. Only (- x y) and a few others need type checking then
2020-03-06T18:15:04Z pjb: google for "Falsehoods programmers believe"…
2020-03-06T18:15:26Z aeth: And it's a good question if SbCL is smart enough to infer nonnegative float/etc. arithmetic
2020-03-06T18:16:04Z pjb: semz: you believe a name is [A-Z][a-z]+  and you're wrong. The domain of the names is way more than that. Falacy!
2020-03-06T18:16:14Z semz: I'm not talking about names, I'm talking about square roots.
2020-03-06T18:16:31Z pjb: aeth: you believe a domain is [0..n[ and you're wrong. The domain is way more than that.  Falacy!
2020-03-06T18:16:42Z pjb: semz: I'm talking about everything.
2020-03-06T18:16:48Z aeth: pjb: If we restrict our type to nonnegative then even (sqrt x) stays in our type!
2020-03-06T18:16:53Z aeth: Assuming float
2020-03-06T18:17:16Z pjb:  aeth: yes, and then you write brittle software that don't apply to most of your customers.
2020-03-06T18:18:28Z aeth: Storing the temperature in K so SBCL can potentially always keep the value as valid without type checks except when subtraction is used is brittle software? It's actually a brilliant efficiency hack assuming the final conversion cost is cheaper!
2020-03-06T18:19:38Z semz: Writing code that handles complex square roots (or more precisely, the *principal* square roots) when complex inputs make absolutely no sense in context isn't more robust, it's idiotic.
2020-03-06T18:20:08Z semz: Checking that the input type is appropriate, yeah sure.
2020-03-06T18:20:08Z aeth: Of course, temperature is a bit of a bad example because you're only really going to be multiplying when converting afaik.
2020-03-06T18:20:35Z semz: But not the output wth
2020-03-06T18:20:36Z pjb: semz: until you take the module and use it in an Ariane 5…
2020-03-06T18:20:40Z pjb: then kaboom!
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2020-03-06T18:21:24Z aeth: pjb: The point was using unit systems that are nonnegative when the domain permits the assumption, as in, in at least some units, you cannot go below 0, which temperature does have
2020-03-06T18:21:40Z pjb: have not.
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2020-03-06T18:22:05Z aeth: This requires domains that have an absolute zero, which exist
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2020-03-06T18:23:19Z pjb: You cannot assume any body is passive when the universe has quantum entanglement.
2020-03-06T18:23:28Z pjb: Therefore the absolute 0 is a falacy.
2020-03-06T18:23:41Z pjb: Because it assumes purely passive bodies.
2020-03-06T18:23:48Z aeth: If I say (integer 0 *) for customer-count, I am making software more reliable because I shouldn't have any negative customers. Sure, I can shift the scale so I do, but... why??? There is a natural 0.
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2020-03-06T18:24:15Z pjb: I just demonstrated that there is no natural absolute 0.
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2020-03-06T18:25:30Z aeth: If it is asymptotic then it doesn't really matter for our purposes. As long as you can't go below it. You have natural absolute zeros all of the time, when counting. Bees in my yard, for example.
2020-03-06T18:25:41Z semz: Ariane 5 is not an example of this, the speed readings made sense in context (as, well, speed).
2020-03-06T18:27:44Z aeth: Anyway, "Can you restrict yourself to nonnegative usefully?" in this channel is "Yes." Not "Actually, there's always negatives." which is incorrect in counting problems.
2020-03-06T18:28:33Z aeth: And, sure, bees or whatever are integers, but molecules are still nonnegative and purely a counting problem, but are best stored as floats.
2020-03-06T18:30:16Z pjb: typed on a computer engineered with the notion that positive electricity flows from + to -, when actually negative electrons move from - to +, but in PNP transistors, it's actually holes that "move", etc…
2020-03-06T18:30:26Z aeth: It looks like for specific float types, you need to use a compound type, so e.g. (typep 42.0f0 '(and single-float (float 0 *))) while for integers you can just use (typep 42 '(integer 0 *)) although of course for integers you might want to (arbitrarily) upper bound it too, for efficiency.
2020-03-06T18:35:59Z aeth: And I've been playing around with variations of (defun foo (x y) (declare (type (and single-float (float 0 *)) x y)) (the (and single-float (float 0 *)) (* x y))) ; including the sqrt variation on just x
2020-03-06T18:37:16Z aeth: It looks like my version of SBCL will, as expected, not typecheck via the THE on most of those, but will typecheck on subtraction, as expected. It looks like it does typecheck, at least on my old version, for (expt x y) though. It shouldn't.
2020-03-06T18:38:19Z aeth: The check goes away when I (optimize (speed 3)) so that's a bit weird.
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2020-03-06T21:15:58Z Bike: turns out cl-llvm loads fine if you put in guicho's pull request. got some bitcode output. too bad the repo isn't maintained enough for the short change, i guess.
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2020-03-06T21:17:13Z Xach: Bike: is that sellout's repo?
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2020-03-06T21:17:26Z Bike: yeah.
2020-03-06T21:17:31Z Bike: it was removed from quicklisp, right?
2020-03-06T21:17:47Z Bike: (because it does not load)
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2020-03-06T21:18:01Z Xach: right
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2020-03-06T21:18:38Z Bike: the reason it doesn't load is that it refers to an enum that was removed after llvm 3.4, and while there's something to check the version it doesn't treat versions past 3 correctly
2020-03-06T21:18:52Z Bike: kind of a dumb reason, but that's how these things go i guess. it works for me with llvm9
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2020-03-06T21:20:10Z Xach: congratulations!! you are new maintainer!!
2020-03-06T21:20:21Z Bike: oh shit
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2020-03-06T21:25:14Z Bike: probably the JIT stuff doesn't work, though. LLVM's totally rewritten that like five times by now
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2020-03-06T23:31:15Z fouric: is there a way to get slime-edit-definition to ignore DECLAIM forms for functions? i'm trying to add type annotations for my code, but every time i do, it makes jumping around the source much more painful because M-. shows the declaim for the defun
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2020-03-06T23:44:57Z White_Flame: fouric: that, and opening up references from that particular slime window opens up new panes instead of using the one that M-. was pressed in, which really bugs me, too
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2020-03-07T00:37:59Z iAmDecim: does anyone use Woo webserver? I see it's still BETA but for moderate traffic??
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2020-03-07T01:03:59Z no-defun-allowed: For some function call that has a compiler macro, will that compiler macro ever be invoked more than once?
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2020-03-07T01:15:07Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe an example would help: I have a protocol for a database, and say it has two methods MAP-FOO-NAMES and GET-FOO. Each place (map-foo-names function database) is called, I want to rewrite it to (map-foo-names/named function database '#:symbol-that-designates-this-place); and I have a simple compiler macro that facilitates that rewrite.
2020-03-07T01:16:13Z no-defun-allowed: Will MAP-FOO-NAMES/NAMED be called with the same symbol each time it is called from that invocation?
2020-03-07T01:16:34Z Bike: there's no guarantee that a compiler macro is called at most once.
2020-03-07T01:17:10Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer.
2020-03-07T01:19:31Z Bike: there's also no guarantee that they'll be called at all, so i'm not sure it's good for what you're doing anyway.
2020-03-07T01:20:47Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2020-03-07T01:22:39Z Bike: you could write it as a macro instead, and then it'll be called at least once but maybe more than once.
2020-03-07T01:23:36Z no-defun-allowed: Say I had a silly query like (map-foo-names (lambda (name) (print (get-foo name database))) database); an SQL database probably would not appreciate being asked to retrieve foo #1, foo #2, etc.
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2020-03-07T01:25:22Z no-defun-allowed: I could add another operator to map foos instead of foo-names, but this is a pretty small protocol compared to the one I am working with; so it might not be a good idea to give each query a generic function. Another legitimate query might not get any foos either.
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2020-03-07T01:27:49Z no-defun-allowed: It also would be unfortunate to make non-SQL databases implement half of SQL. My compromise is to tag each invocation of MAP-FOO-NAMES and count how many foos are retrieved and how many names were provided, allowing the database to decide if it should prefetch the foos or not.
2020-03-07T01:33:06Z pjb: or at least once.
2020-03-07T01:34:09Z Bike: i don't know the second thing about sql, sorry.
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2020-03-07T01:35:39Z no-defun-allowed: My understanding is they like big "batch" queries like SELECT NAME, FOO IN FOOS instead of SELECT NAME IN FOOS then repeatedly SELECT FOO IN FOOS WHERE NAME = 'a name'
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2020-03-07T01:56:03Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed:  look up "query planners"
2020-03-07T01:56:30Z White_Flame: that's the name for the sql search optimization stuff
2020-03-07T01:56:36Z White_Flame: which the DB does internally
2020-03-07T01:57:28Z no-defun-allowed: Are you suggesting the database can guess what it has to prefetch?
2020-03-07T01:57:48Z White_Flame: it looks at the whole query and tries to map out what the fastest way to traverse it will be
2020-03-07T01:58:01Z White_Flame: with like many decades of research into the field
2020-03-07T01:58:38Z no-defun-allowed: Right, but if my protocol generates multiple queries, will it still be of any use?
2020-03-07T01:59:03Z White_Flame: if you talk to a database, you want to put as much into a single query as possible, so it can cross-link and filter and make use of internal indexes in the DB
2020-03-07T01:59:22Z White_Flame: at least, if you want better performance
2020-03-07T01:59:47Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I hope to do with gathering statistics on what is retrieved per map-foo-names use.
2020-03-07T01:59:57Z White_Flame: I don't quite have the context of what you're doing; if you want that sort of smarts in your own data traversall, then looking at what query planners do is what you want
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2020-03-07T02:01:06Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
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2020-03-07T04:33:34Z nitrix: For the interested, SpaceX is launching CRS-20 in the next few 15 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MkcWK2PnsU
2020-03-07T04:36:14Z no-defun-allowed: not Lisp don't care
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2020-03-07T04:46:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-07T05:50:23Z ebrasca: Good morning!
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2020-03-07T05:58:30Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-03-07T07:49:52Z splittist: Good morning
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2020-03-07T08:01:57Z beach: Hello splittist.
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2020-03-07T08:27:23Z elderK: Hey all! Happy Saturday!
2020-03-07T08:27:36Z elderK: I am here, once again, to consult you for advice.
2020-03-07T08:27:45Z elderK: Particularly, naming of generic functions, the convention.
2020-03-07T08:28:05Z elderK: I've been using what I call the "Scheme" convention for accessors and the like.
2020-03-07T08:28:16Z elderK: type-thing. Say, activation-frame-size or location-offset
2020-03-07T08:28:33Z elderK: But for some types, this becomes unwieldy fast.
2020-03-07T08:28:40Z elderK: So, I was wondering how you guys get around this.
2020-03-07T08:28:57Z elderK: Do you use generics and just say the thing? Like, instead of location-offset, you just have a generic called index, and specialize it for a location?
2020-03-07T08:29:24Z elderK: Do you change convention depending on context? If so, when, and what questions do you ask, what constraints, help you decide when to apply which?
2020-03-07T08:31:17Z beach: elderK: I skip the type thing.  Not only because it becomes unwieldy, but also because it becomes really weird with subclassing.  Take CLIM, for instance.  It looks very strange to say (SHEET-PARENT PANE).
2020-03-07T08:31:48Z beach: elderK: So I just skip the type prefix and use more packages instead.
2020-03-07T08:32:42Z elderK: beach: Thanks :)
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2020-03-07T08:33:00Z elderK: The next question comes to do with overloading, or the situation where say, you have a generic with a name that applies to many types, but in different ways.
2020-03-07T08:33:18Z elderK: I have seen the 'allow-other-keys' thing. I was wondering if and how that could be used to do this.
2020-03-07T08:33:47Z elderK: Say, one method expects two parameters, another expects one. But they are all the same generic.
2020-03-07T08:34:09Z beach: Such a situation is not recommended.
2020-03-07T08:34:36Z beach: If you have a name that appears to apply to different, unrelated, types, then those types should probably go in different packages.
2020-03-07T08:34:57Z elderK: So you'd disambiguate that case by using qualified names?
2020-03-07T08:35:07Z beach: Yes.
2020-03-07T08:35:33Z elderK: Which brings me to the next thing: Can each package define a generic with the same name?
2020-03-07T08:35:39Z beach: The correct term would be that I use "explicit package prefixes".
2020-03-07T08:36:16Z beach: Sure, the name of a generic function is either a symbol or (SETF symbol).
2020-03-07T08:36:25Z no-defun-allowed: I use your "Scheme convention" for classes that have subclasses that introduce few concepts that the superclasses don't.
2020-03-07T08:36:25Z beach: And symbols are specific to packages.
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2020-03-07T08:54:18Z elderK: Thank you :)
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2020-03-07T10:55:33Z phoe: minion: memo for elderK: there also exist package-local nicknames that aid one with defining functionalities in multiple packages. You can use names like A:OFFSET, F:OFFSET, S:OFFSET, even if the packages are named e.g. FROB.ACCESSIBILITY, FROB.FUNCTIONALITY, FROB.SECURITY - PLNs do the translation.
2020-03-07T10:55:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell elderK when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-03-07T15:36:03Z sgithens: Hi all. I'm wondering if there is a way (or preferably nice way) to get a :predicate option for defclass similar to defstruct? I'm somewhat new, so I'm not sure if this would be lurking in an existing option, or needs to be a superclass, or metaclass that must be brought in.
2020-03-07T15:38:04Z beach: I think you either have to define it "manually", or you need some MOP manipulation to define a new metaclass, etc.  It is probably not worth it.
2020-03-07T15:38:40Z beach: Just do (defgeneric stuff-p (x) (:method (x) nil) (:method ((x stuff)) t))
2020-03-07T15:39:19Z beach: ... or you can use TYPEP to test for it.
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2020-03-07T15:44:12Z sgithens: beach: Thanks, I'm actually bringing an old project back up to speed that I've inherited, and it has and uses `XYZed?` predicate tests for all it's classes, but I can't quite tell where they are coming from, I think it may have pulled in quite older versions of CLOS and things.  Mostly I'm looking at how to properly replicate this on modern CL
2020-03-07T15:44:46Z beach: I see, yes.
2020-03-07T15:45:45Z pjb: sgithens: https://termbin.com/zm81
2020-03-07T15:46:45Z beach: sgithens: It is a bit strange to have so many uses for such a predicate.
2020-03-07T15:47:05Z beach: sgithens: It would be more common to use generic dispatch than to test for the type explicitly.
2020-03-07T15:47:15Z pjb: sgithens: a lighter way would be to define the predicate separately.  (defclass foo …) (define-type-predicate foop foo)
2020-03-07T15:47:48Z pjb: sgithens: with a simplier (defmacro define-type-predicate (name type) `(defun ,name (x) (typep x ',type)))
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2020-03-07T15:52:52Z sgithens: pjb: Thanks much! I may start with the less intrusive define-type-predicate here, as there are probably less than 30 classes I need to do this for.  I fear I'm still new enough to CL to be a little initimated at shadowing the defclass, but will take a look at it :)
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2020-03-07T15:53:55Z beach: sgithens: Like I said, a better way would be to use more generic functions rather than explicit tests for the type.
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2020-03-07T15:56:08Z sgithens: beach: I'm guessing because it would handle more of the nuances for comparing class heirarchies and oddities with equality and whatnot?
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2020-03-07T16:01:28Z beach: It is more a question of modularity.  If you are using explicit tests in a function that has some action, then each class-specific action must be present in that function.  So if you add some class you need to modify the function.
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2020-03-07T16:02:15Z beach: If you use a generic function ACTION, and specialize it to different classes, the class-specific actions are physically separated, and you can put them in different modules.
2020-03-07T16:04:04Z beach: So instead of (defun action (x) (cond ((a-p x) (do-a x)) ((b-p x) (do-b x))...)) you get (defmethod action ((x a)) (do-a x)) (defmethod action ((x b)) (do-b x)) ...
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2020-03-07T16:10:49Z sgithens: thanks beach, that was a helpful to have unpacked
2020-03-07T16:11:26Z beach: Oh, good.
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2020-03-07T20:45:27Z Kabriel: I'm playing around with py4cl. Anyone familiar with this package? I would like to unpack a dictionary in a function call, but can't quite figure out how to do that.
2020-03-07T20:46:45Z Xach is not familiar, sorry
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2020-03-07T20:50:01Z jmercouris: Kabriel: you are trying to do ** basically with some function that accepts kwargs?
2020-03-07T20:51:42Z Kabriel: yes
2020-03-07T20:51:54Z jmercouris: Kabriel: and does python-call work for you?
2020-03-07T20:52:14Z Kabriel: let me see; I was using chain
2020-03-07T20:52:19Z jmercouris: "python-call can be used to pass arguments to any python callable, such as a function in a module"
2020-03-07T20:52:27Z jmercouris: (py4cl:python-call "lambda a=0, b=1: a-b" :b 2 :a 1)
2020-03-07T20:52:59Z jmercouris: you see how you could unpack a dictionary into key-value pairs to make a call?
2020-03-07T20:53:03Z Kabriel: the issue is that the hash is "pythonized" as string and passed as a signle argument.
2020-03-07T20:53:12Z Kabriel: no
2020-03-07T20:53:18Z jmercouris: look at the call above
2020-03-07T20:53:21Z jmercouris: :b 2 :a 1
2020-03-07T20:53:25Z jmercouris: looks a lot like a plist does it not?
2020-03-07T20:53:42Z jmercouris: or is it alist?
2020-03-07T20:53:44Z jmercouris: I get them confused
2020-03-07T20:53:51Z MichaelRaskin: plist
2020-03-07T20:53:51Z jmercouris: anyways, you can convert your dictionary into that, and make the call
2020-03-07T20:53:59Z Kabriel: I am trying to use a python function that returns a dictionary and then pass that to a second pythong function
2020-03-07T20:54:04Z jmercouris: Yes, I get it
2020-03-07T20:54:09Z jmercouris: what I am telling you is that you may have to do some processing in Lisp
2020-03-07T20:54:15Z Kabriel: got it
2020-03-07T20:54:30Z jmercouris: deconstruct that dictionary into a plist and pass it where you would normally do kwargs things in Python
2020-03-07T20:54:45Z jmercouris: MichaelRaskin: thank you
2020-03-07T20:54:57Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you could probably write a "lambda …" string so that ** happens in Python
2020-03-07T20:55:06Z jmercouris: ah, yeah, that's another good idea
2020-03-07T20:55:20Z Kabriel: no, because then the dict gets passed as a string
2020-03-07T20:55:32Z jmercouris: OK, so then you will have to do the processing as I've suggested
2020-03-07T20:55:42Z Kabriel: in process
2020-03-07T20:55:44Z jmercouris: dictionary -> plist, and use python-call
2020-03-07T20:56:12Z MichaelRaskin: Does it get passed as string with python-call too?
2020-03-07T20:56:46Z Kabriel: there is a generic function pythonize that turns the hash table into a python dictionary
2020-03-07T20:56:53Z jmercouris: you know, you could just also write a lambda that contains both funcalls together in python
2020-03-07T20:57:13Z jmercouris: "lambda funcall2(funcall1)..."
2020-03-07T20:57:22Z Kabriel: I think this happens in both call and chain
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2020-03-07T21:02:34Z MichaelRaskin: Composing in Python is probably also faster (every time you cross some kind of imperfectly transparent border, there is some overhead)
2020-03-07T21:03:33Z Kabriel: temporary situtaion to use python plotting until some matplotlib equivalent is done
2020-03-07T21:03:41Z Kabriel: (in cl)
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2020-03-07T21:04:58Z MichaelRaskin: Well, I mean just that as long as you do multiple things in Python, consider doing all of them as a single chunk
2020-03-07T21:05:05Z MichaelRaskin: Then later the chunk might get smaller
2020-03-07T21:05:08Z jmercouris: I would say that is good advice
2020-03-07T21:05:15Z jmercouris: you could even wrap the chunk in a flet or defun
2020-03-07T21:05:29Z jmercouris: you don't necessarily want to interleave blobs of python everywhere in your CL
2020-03-07T21:05:44Z jmercouris: it might get hard to reason about, and difficult to extend in the future
2020-03-07T21:06:11Z Kabriel: Definitely not. I'm trying to interface with just a set of plotting stuff.
2020-03-07T21:06:30Z jmercouris: then just keep your API very simple
2020-03-07T21:06:39Z jmercouris: only pass the data once to python and let it do the rest in one solid chunk
2020-03-07T21:06:48Z jmercouris: no need to use this py4cl line by line passing back and forth then
2020-03-07T21:06:59Z jmercouris: it will be harder to understand that way anyway as compared to just plain python
2020-03-07T21:07:16Z jmercouris: that's just what I would do, :-)
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2020-03-07T22:26:35Z vms14: windows users, do you know if sbcl unix sockets work on windows 10?
2020-03-07T22:26:44Z vms14: I see windows 10 has unix sockets support
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2020-03-07T22:32:40Z vms14: meh, it's not the same api, so won't work
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2020-03-07T22:34:59Z p_l: SBCL uses Winsocks, afaik, so no, it has only access to the crippled side of Windows networking
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2020-03-07T22:37:58Z vms14: p_l: windows 10 stole the bsd sockets and "implemented" the unix sockets
2020-03-07T22:38:18Z vms14: but they're assholes and changed slightly the api
2020-03-07T22:38:39Z p_l: vms14: Berkeley got money to reimplement TOPS-20 TCP/IP implementation with contractual obligation to provide the source code to everyone
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2020-03-07T22:38:44Z p_l: nobody in the world stole BSD sockets
2020-03-07T22:38:59Z vms14: yeah, that's what the BSD license lets you do
2020-03-07T22:39:15Z vms14: but I tend to use "steal" where I mean "copy"
2020-03-07T22:39:18Z p_l: and Windows NT *native* network API isn't BSD sockets
2020-03-07T22:39:43Z p_l: Winsock just emulates them for applications based on BSD sockets API (which, btw, sucks - it's one of the worst around)
2020-03-07T22:40:12Z vms14: p_l then I'll have some kind of unix sockets with sbcl in windows?
2020-03-07T22:40:35Z p_l: vms14: my suggestion is to use OS-native APIs where possible. On Windows the norm is to use Named Pipes (not the same as unix FIFOs)
2020-03-07T22:41:01Z vms14: yes, I'll end using pipes instead for windows
2020-03-07T22:41:01Z p_l: wrap the system-specific transports in higher level API (it's not like it's hard to do, you have lisp on your side)
2020-03-07T22:41:22Z p_l: the implementation of Unix sockets is, afaik, mostly done for WSL1
2020-03-07T22:41:35Z p_l: WSL2 runs a stripped-down Linux kernel
2020-03-07T22:42:15Z vms14: I'm realizing since I'm using perl and sdl + unix sockets + sbcl and on the lisp side I won't use any external library, has to be quite portable
2020-03-07T22:42:19Z vms14: excepting the sockets part
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2020-03-07T22:43:31Z vms14: and since just discovered win 10 provides unix sockets, I was wondering if I'll really won't need any single change on the code
2020-03-07T22:43:39Z p_l: vms14: well, the necessary libs are part of the OS in WinNT case, and I'm pretty sure Perl has the libs for that as well
2020-03-07T22:43:48Z vms14: but it seems I'll have to use named pipes for win
2020-03-07T22:44:14Z vms14: perl supports that win sockets api, so on the perl side Idon't need to change nothing
2020-03-07T22:44:28Z vms14: but on the lisp side, it seems I will
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2020-03-07T22:45:22Z vms14: anyway it won't be much work to change unix sockets for named pipes, since that would be the only change I'll need
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2020-03-08T01:16:08Z elderK: Happy Sunday, everyone.
2020-03-08T01:16:09Z minion: elderK, memo from phoe: there also exist package-local nicknames that aid one with defining functionalities in multiple packages. You can use names like A:OFFSET, F:OFFSET, S:OFFSET, even if the packages are named e.g. FROB.ACCESSIBILITY, FROB.FUNCTIONALITY, FROB.SECURITY - PLNs do the translation.
2020-03-08T01:16:41Z elderK: phoe: Are package local nicknames widespread yet? I remember them being an implementation extension.
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2020-03-08T01:25:25Z aeth: They're sufficiently widespread now
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2020-03-08T04:31:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-08T08:22:45Z phoe: minion: memo for elderK: PLNs are now in SBCL, CCL, ECL, ACL, ABCL, Clasp, and will be available in LW after the next release.
2020-03-08T08:22:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell elderK when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-03-08T10:44:17Z lukego: Is there a stable imgui binding for Lisp?
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2020-03-08T10:47:51Z lukego: (Or something similar i.e. low-tech way to splash interactive graphics on the screen)
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2020-03-08T10:51:59Z Shinmera is once again depressed he can't recommend Alloy yet
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2020-03-08T11:06:01Z d4ryus: lukego: borodust wrote bindings for nuklear: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-ui you can catch him here or on #lispgames
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2020-03-08T11:12:35Z pjb: lukego: imgui and stable? 	imgui.h	Unicode: Changelog, comments, minimum CI integration. (#2541, #2538, #…	5 days ago
2020-03-08T11:12:51Z no-defun-allowed: Some implementations like SBCL and Clozure have synchronised hash tables, but some don't and need you to bring your own lock. Is there a wrapper library that has a clone of the CL hash table protocol, but ensures everything is synchronised?
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2020-03-08T11:36:04Z _death: lukego: I've been working on imgui+ecl thing, but it's not public (yet?) .. https://adeht.org/dump/vids.html has some videos
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2020-03-08T11:40:59Z lukego: borodust: Hey I'm trying to run bodge-nuklear examples but first thing that happens is "Unhandled memory fault at #x0" on the %glfw:create-window call in nuklear.example:run. any troubleshooting tip?
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2020-03-08T12:18:53Z phoe: lukego: you might want to ask on #lispgames
2020-03-08T12:19:30Z lukego: phoe: Thanks. Looks like I'll run out of time for the moment. I'm fighting with nix to get all my stuff onto the latest and greatest in case it's some opengl issue that's been fixed.
2020-03-08T12:23:27Z lukego: oh hey it works! Just as I have to leave the keys. Cool. Just some opengl gremlins hopefully now pinned down by nix.
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2020-03-08T13:16:31Z seok: how would I download m3u8 videos?
2020-03-08T13:16:42Z seok: anyone got an idea
2020-03-08T13:21:49Z borodust: hello lukego: do you use bodge-nuklear from main quicklisp dist or from bodge dist?
2020-03-08T13:23:43Z borodust: lukego: ah, nvm, looks like you figured it out; feel free to ping me anytime you have problems with bodge stuff
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2020-03-08T13:29:58Z phoe: seok: that doesn't really sound Lisp-specific
2020-03-08T13:30:25Z seok: yeah, it is a method of streaming videos on the web
2020-03-08T13:30:41Z seok: I'm not sure of its architecture tho
2020-03-08T13:33:13Z MichaelRaskin: It does not look like there is a suitable Common Lisp library, and details of wrapping youtube-dl are probably offtopic here
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2020-03-08T13:33:32Z seok: does youtube use m3u8?
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2020-03-08T13:34:15Z phoe: it isn't YouTube
2020-03-08T13:34:28Z phoe: YT uses much more complex formats for that; see youtube-dl for source code for that
2020-03-08T13:34:38Z seok: I'm trying to save lecture videos off my uni, VLC player seems to work somewhat but was wondering how I would do it programatically
2020-03-08T13:34:51Z phoe: if you wanted to do that in Lisp, you could possibly translate some other code that works with m3u8 playlists - I found https://github.com/denex/hls-downloader
2020-03-08T13:34:57Z phoe: that is, after a while of googling
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2020-03-08T13:35:40Z seok: Oh nice
2020-03-08T13:35:45Z seok: I wasn't able to find that
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2020-03-08T13:35:59Z seok: did you search for HLS?
2020-03-08T13:36:12Z seok: I'll try that one
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2020-03-08T13:38:22Z phoe: I tried for "m3u8 download"
2020-03-08T13:38:26Z seok: what
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2020-03-08T13:38:34Z seok: That's what i've been searching
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2020-03-08T14:48:41Z jmercouris: would you say the length of files in a lisp program should be limited?
2020-03-08T14:48:47Z jmercouris: are smaller files preferred?
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2020-03-08T14:49:13Z Shinmera: I prefer smaller files.
2020-03-08T14:49:29Z Shinmera: But other people clearly don't.
2020-03-08T14:50:12Z _death: my recent projects are one or a few big files each
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2020-03-08T14:52:14Z jmercouris: I used to be a small file person, but I've been moving slowly to big files
2020-03-08T14:52:29Z jmercouris: when I can just jump to any defun I need, I think it is a bit easier to reason about than jumping between files
2020-03-08T14:56:21Z edgar-rft: jmercouris: yes, a file shold not be longer than a few million lines
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2020-03-08T14:56:26Z jmercouris: 11
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2020-03-08T14:58:18Z edgar-rft: I think it's also no good idea to have files that are bigger than your harddisk
2020-03-08T14:58:29Z jmercouris: no, that's fine
2020-03-08T14:58:32Z jmercouris: you just stream them
2020-03-08T15:01:53Z edgar-rft: what's with files where the Lisp read-time is longer than a human lifespan?
2020-03-08T15:02:23Z jmercouris: Shinmera: how does deploy actually under the hood manage shared libraries
2020-03-08T15:02:37Z Shinmera: the source is there to read?
2020-03-08T15:02:41Z jmercouris: Shinmera: let's say I make an app bundle, and it figures out, OK, I need these dylibs, what does it do to the cffi load path or whatever?
2020-03-08T15:02:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: The source is there to read
2020-03-08T15:03:30Z Shinmera: it just loads the libs with an explicit path
2020-03-08T15:03:43Z jmercouris: and when you move this program around your filesystem?
2020-03-08T15:03:47Z Shinmera: since it knows where they'll be relative to the directory.
2020-03-08T15:03:53Z Shinmera: *relative to the executable
2020-03-08T15:04:04Z jmercouris: that's what I'm saying, what about moving the executable around
2020-03-08T15:04:07Z jmercouris: suddenly the path is different
2020-03-08T15:04:15Z Shinmera: the paths are constructed relative to the executable, so
2020-03-08T15:04:20Z jmercouris: so, it breaks then
2020-03-08T15:04:22Z Shinmera: no?
2020-03-08T15:04:31Z jmercouris: the executable could be moved anywhere on disk
2020-03-08T15:04:40Z jmercouris: Oh, ok I see
2020-03-08T15:04:46Z Shinmera: well yeah if you move it away from the rest of the directory things break
2020-03-08T15:04:52Z jmercouris: you meant to say that the paths are in the app bundle still
2020-03-08T15:05:09Z Shinmera: I don't know what that means so I don't know if I meant to say that.
2020-03-08T15:05:19Z jmercouris: fair enough, but if what you said above is true, that is what you meant to say
2020-03-08T15:05:31Z jmercouris: in any case, I get it
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2020-03-08T17:17:34Z markasoftware: Does common lisp have a mechanism for dynamically binding the function slot? Like `cl-letf` or `flet` in Emacs.
2020-03-08T17:18:24Z MichaelRaskin: flet or labels
2020-03-08T17:18:38Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That would be lexical.
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2020-03-08T17:18:43Z beach: Not dynamic.
2020-03-08T17:19:03Z markasoftware: I know let can be both dynamic or lexical depending on "special", but I think flet is always lexical
2020-03-08T17:19:08Z MichaelRaskin: Oh, Emacs flet is dynamic? Oops, my bad
2020-03-08T17:22:26Z markasoftware: There's a function I use that I want people to be able to override if they don't like my default definition of it, and I don't want to add it as an optional argument to every other function that uses it.
2020-03-08T17:23:11Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you can funcall a special variable
2020-03-08T17:23:16Z markasoftware: yeah, that's my current plan
2020-03-08T17:24:16Z beach: Or, you can create yourself a macro that saves the old definition, installs a new one, executes some code, and then re-installs the old one.
2020-03-08T17:24:27Z beach: Don't forget the unwind-protect, though.
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2020-03-08T18:42:44Z pjb: minion: memo for jmercouris: the size of source files and their arrangement doesn't matter: just write an emacs command to fetch and save toplevel forms automatically in any organization you like and forget it! Don't visit lisp file, visit lisp toplevel forms!
2020-03-08T18:42:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-03-08T18:49:43Z vms14: there is a way to use remove-if with a function that accepts two elements and pass one element that would be the same in all calls instead of wrapping it with a lambda?
2020-03-08T18:50:33Z vms14: example: (defun oh (x y) (= x y)) (remove-if #'oh some-list :extra-argument 1)
2020-03-08T18:51:15Z vms14: instead of (remove-if (lambda (x) (oh x 1)) some-list)
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2020-03-08T19:02:08Z vms14: (defun get-subject (sentece)
2020-03-08T19:02:08Z vms14:  (butlast (loop for word in sentece collect word until (is word verb))))
2020-03-08T19:02:50Z vms14: how I should create the function "drop-subject" to get the predicate using get-subject as a filter?
2020-03-08T19:03:27Z vms14: by predicate I mean the predicate of a sentence, not a lisp predicate
2020-03-08T19:05:00Z vms14: oh, lol using lenght
2020-03-08T19:07:25Z vms14: (nthcdr (length (get-subject sentence)) sentence)
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2020-03-08T19:20:57Z semz: I don't think there is. Why is a lambda not acceptable?
2020-03-08T19:21:36Z vms14: yeah, I've realized It's too lazy stuff for abstracting that
2020-03-08T19:21:57Z vms14: but wondered if there was a way, like a similar function that would do
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2020-03-08T19:29:55Z _death: lambda is fine.. there's also alexandria:curry/rcurry
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2020-03-08T19:32:42Z seok: I'm reading an article on early lisp, and there is a line about it being easier to write a new language than a library
2020-03-08T19:33:21Z seok: I don't really understand this, and I feel like I'm missing out on a huge feature of lisp, what can I read to really understand this concept?
2020-03-08T19:34:01Z seok: From my understanding it probably has something to do with what makes macros so great
2020-03-08T19:34:06Z seok: But I still don't get it
2020-03-08T19:34:12Z markasoftware: seok: i think early lispers vastly overestimated the utility of macros
2020-03-08T19:34:26Z markasoftware: that's why today's most popular dynamic languages don't have good ones
2020-03-08T19:34:43Z markasoftware: buuuut there are lots of situations where a mini-language is very useful
2020-03-08T19:34:57Z seok: So are macros not as good as lisp advocates say they are?
2020-03-08T19:35:23Z markasoftware: yo umight want to read some of SICP, structure and interpretation of computer programs. I believe they implement lots of mini-languages in there
2020-03-08T19:35:26Z seok: For me I really didn't get how macros were so significant other than saving a few lines of code trying to write a function
2020-03-08T19:35:58Z seok: Wow, 883 pages
2020-03-08T19:36:01Z seok: That's a read
2020-03-08T19:36:09Z markasoftware: lol yeah i haven't read much of it
2020-03-08T19:36:09Z seok: Thanks I'll check that out
2020-03-08T19:36:21Z markasoftware: it's considered one of the best books abotu programming in general
2020-03-08T19:36:58Z markasoftware: let's take an example: yo uwant to write a program that can simulate electric circuits
2020-03-08T19:37:24Z markasoftware: how do you want to specify the electric circuit to the program? Realistically, you'd probably import a schematic file from a CAD program or something, but let's try to make it more elegant than that
2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: In Java or C or another static language, you'd do somethin glike this:
2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: Resistor r1 = new Resistor();
2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: Diode d2 = new Diode();
2020-03-08T19:38:54Z markasoftware: d2.connectAnodeTo(r1);
2020-03-08T19:39:00Z seok: Yup
2020-03-08T19:39:03Z markasoftware: etc etc, it's quite verbose
2020-03-08T19:40:06Z aeth: seok: Macro-driven APIs allow you to do a lot of things at compile time that otherwise would be done at runtime with the equivalent API, so it changes a lot of things. The macro call (foo ((a b c) (d e f))) is roughly equivalent to the function call (foo '((a b c) (d e f))) but with the latter, all of the fanciness you're doing in that macro has to be done at runtime.
2020-03-08T19:40:29Z aeth: So, essentially, you never have to let efficiency decisions due to language limitations drive your API design.
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2020-03-08T19:40:40Z seok: Hm
2020-03-08T19:41:09Z markasoftware: With lisp you could design your own language to input the circuit schematic
2020-03-08T19:41:13Z seok: but even in static languages
2020-03-08T19:41:21Z seok: it's going to be more verbose
2020-03-08T19:41:26Z aeth: In practice, what that means is probably string generation for some target language, like HTML. But really there are a dozen or more such languages you might want to target (e.g. SQL). Instead of having string templates, you can have s-expression versions of that language, since it's going to (mostly) be done at compile time if properly designed.
2020-03-08T19:41:34Z seok: but if you don't want to evaluate the variables at runtime
2020-03-08T19:41:59Z seok: you can let those variables a b c d e f hold pseudo-pointers only, not the object
2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: like
2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: (resistor r1 5k-ohms)
2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: (resistor r2 250-ohms)
2020-03-08T19:42:11Z markasoftware: (diode d1 :anode r1 :cathode r2)
2020-03-08T19:42:14Z seok: for instance you could have a hash/dictionary with the keys and objects
2020-03-08T19:42:21Z seok: and pass the keys only
2020-03-08T19:42:23Z aeth: e.g. (:html (:head ...) (:body (:p ...))) with no variable input can be transformed directly into a literal string of HTML, and with some variable input could be turned into a literal FORMAT string with one input without much of a performance loss. Etc.
2020-03-08T19:42:48Z aeth: Even if your Java program expresses HTML as objects or whatever, you're going to have a performance loss at the ToString() runtime call
2020-03-08T19:43:05Z markasoftware: You might want to take a look at parenscript for an example of what aeth is saying; it can transpile lisp code to javascript at compile-time
2020-03-08T19:43:38Z seok: Yes, I do use a lot of those web related libraries
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2020-03-08T19:43:56Z seok: so are advantages of macros in the syntax and performance?
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2020-03-08T19:44:34Z seok: From my understanding macros provide freedom in the syntax over other languages, but not functionality
2020-03-08T19:44:47Z aeth: In Common Lisp, you control exactly at which stage something executes, and exactly how it looks like.
2020-03-08T19:45:12Z aeth: In C++, you can control which stage something executes at, but not very easily, and not with essentially the same language as the runtime language with no modifications at all.
2020-03-08T19:45:28Z aeth: (And not controlling its appearance.)
2020-03-08T19:45:29Z aeth: And in most languages, you don't even have that freedom.
2020-03-08T19:45:47Z seok: Yeah
2020-03-08T19:46:12Z vms14: seok: the thing is symbols and lists are a very common and easy to use stuff in lisp
2020-03-08T19:46:16Z seok: Now I know that,
2020-03-08T19:46:18Z aeth: Now, it's not all DEFMACRO. There are a few other things at play like EVAL-WHEN, reader macros (sort of like C preprocessor macros), read-eval (i.e. #.(foo)) etc. that let you do that in combination
2020-03-08T19:46:22Z vms14: and languages have usually atoms, tokens and alike
2020-03-08T19:46:26Z seok: Is it wrong to not use such freedom when coding in lisp?
2020-03-08T19:47:00Z seok: IE, are you more productive in coding when you create the syntax for your goal?
2020-03-08T19:47:05Z vms14: I'm just doing some pseudocode language stuff to practice and found is very tied to lisp if you use simbols and the sentence is a list
2020-03-08T19:47:08Z vms14: https://termbin.com/88zo
2020-03-08T19:47:44Z vms14: lispers would kill me for having globals without earmuffs :D
2020-03-08T19:47:54Z seok: :D
2020-03-08T19:48:22Z Odin-: That's something that makes it easy for you to shoot yourself in your foot, but feel free to do so if you particularly want.
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2020-03-08T19:48:51Z Odin-: Lisp is absolutely full of good ways to shoot yourself in the foot.
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2020-03-08T19:48:56Z vms14: Odin-: yes I know, I tend to use earmuffs, but wanted "name" be a list of names
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2020-03-08T19:49:05Z vms14: so (is word name) would work
2020-03-08T19:49:23Z vms14: (is word verb) and same for adjectives or alike
2020-03-08T19:49:36Z seok: interesting
2020-03-08T19:49:37Z vms14: and I don't have to change the function "is" for new types
2020-03-08T19:49:38Z aeth: seok: As far as functionality in macros, you can just call a third party interpreter/compiler or write ASM if your implementation exposes it (or, I guess, portably if you care to)... so any line of code can do literally anything at any time, assuming that you only have the context of that one line of code. It's a bit natural that other languages would give this up, since it makes things easier for tools.
2020-03-08T19:49:50Z vms14: (defun is (word what-is) (car (member word what-is)))
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2020-03-08T19:50:45Z aeth: As long as you write a CL-reader-compatible parser algorithm, you can basically run any language within CL (that's more of a reader macro thing than a macro thing, though)
2020-03-08T19:51:26Z Odin-: seok: In theory, any programming language can provide any desired functionality. At least if the Church-Turing thesis is indeed true.
2020-03-08T19:51:36Z seok: Yes
2020-03-08T19:51:45Z Odin-: I wouldn't want to build a large system in Brainfuck, though.
2020-03-08T19:51:56Z aeth: The worst case scenario for regular macros is probably LOOP, which has a bunch of meaningful non-parenthesized clauses, which means that the editor won't indent it properly without special casing LOOP keywords (and even the Emacs+SLIME workaround for this doesn't do it perfectly for complicated if/thens IME)
2020-03-08T19:51:58Z vms14: Odin-: yes, but not most languages have a reader macro that let's you read the code as text input
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2020-03-08T19:52:29Z seok: So fundamentally, if Lisp is superior to other languages, it can only be superior in its syntax
2020-03-08T19:52:34Z vms14: also in my case I just need to wrap the sentence in parenthesis and it's a list
2020-03-08T19:52:40Z Odin-: vms14: My point is that eventually _all_ of the features of a programming languages can be termed "a syntactic convenience".
2020-03-08T19:52:54Z Odin-: -s
2020-03-08T19:53:03Z seok: Which means, when someone asks, "What's so good about Lisp?", The answers is - Syntax?
2020-03-08T19:53:11Z vms14: (read-from-string (format nil "(~a)") (read-line))
2020-03-08T19:53:33Z Odin-: seok: I'd say it's no single thing. It's a bunch of things, most of which aren't combined by other programming languages.
2020-03-08T19:53:35Z vms14: seok: the answer is macros
2020-03-08T19:53:41Z aeth: seok: Well, the regular syntax just makes things look less out of place once you start inserting your own arbitrary macros (at least, as long as your macros don't look like LOOP)
2020-03-08T19:53:42Z vms14: it's code generation "on the fly"
2020-03-08T19:53:46Z Odin-: Macros are the only one that hardly anyone else implements _at all_.
2020-03-08T19:54:02Z seok: @aeth I actually liked lisp syntax when I first heard about it
2020-03-08T19:54:15Z Odin-: But it might be worth remembering that Lisp was the first programming language to feature 'if'.
2020-03-08T19:54:15Z seok: Haha
2020-03-08T19:54:18Z vms14: you can skip evaluating stuff, and reorder the syntax before getting it evaluated
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2020-03-08T19:54:37Z vms14: so you could transform the syntax as you want
2020-03-08T19:54:54Z aeth: Odin-: IF is more of a precursor to the ternary. COND is more of a precursor to the actual if/else if/else block
2020-03-08T19:55:13Z seok: @Odin- what do you mean
2020-03-08T19:55:17Z vms14: and the parenthesis are what let you do that since they're delimiters of a list and the code it's just that. A list
2020-03-08T19:55:21Z seok: You can implement if in assembly tho
2020-03-08T19:55:27Z Odin-: aeth: Hm, true.
2020-03-08T19:55:40Z vms14: so to generate code you only have to generate a list
2020-03-08T19:55:45Z aeth: Odin-: to the point where if the order was reversed and COND came after languages with if blocks, then COND would probably be called IF because 'if' is the first thing you see in if/else if/else blocks
2020-03-08T19:55:54Z Odin-: aeth: Then again, I also noticed that my comfort with the ternary operator went through the roof after using CL for a while. :)
2020-03-08T19:56:24Z aeth: Odin-: yes, but you have to be careful because you can't expect everyone else to be able to read a nested ternary :-)
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2020-03-08T19:56:44Z Odin-: aeth: Which sucks! :p
2020-03-08T19:57:28Z Odin-: seok: Obviously it can be implemented in assembly. Otherwise it couldn't be implemented on an actual computer.
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2020-03-08T19:58:08Z seok: Yeah, so lisp is not the first language to use "if"?
2020-03-08T19:58:19Z Odin-: Errr.
2020-03-08T19:58:32Z aeth: seok: Assembly's conditional jumps isn't using structured programming.
2020-03-08T19:58:40Z Odin-: Assembly languages don't have 'if'. You can build if on top of conditional execution and branching.
2020-03-08T19:58:53Z seok: Ok
2020-03-08T19:59:02Z aeth: CL does have an equivalent to ASM, if you combine WHEN or UNLESS with GO in TAGBODY, but even that is contained to within the scope of TAGBODY.
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2020-03-08T20:01:02Z aeth: (WHEN and UNLESS are just single-branch versions of IF)
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2020-03-08T20:03:12Z aeth: seok: CL was the first language iirc to have something like COND, that is (cond ((> x y) :gt) ((< x y) :lt) (t :eq)) which is like (in pseudocode): if (x > y) return GT; else if (x < y) return LT; else return eq;
2020-03-08T20:03:37Z aeth: s/return eq/return EQ/
2020-03-08T20:04:52Z seok: Right
2020-03-08T20:04:59Z aeth: (It's slightly different than the if/else if/else block in most programming languages because it implicitly has return values because it is an expression, not a statement.)
2020-03-08T20:05:00Z seok: I forget how old lisp is
2020-03-08T20:05:53Z seok: Unrelated question: is it discouraged to use CLOS to store simple hash-like data
2020-03-08T20:06:01Z aeth: Oh, right, not it wasn't CL, it was a precursor Lisp, probably LISP 1.5?
2020-03-08T20:06:07Z aeth: s/not it/it/
2020-03-08T20:06:17Z Odin-: Indeed.
2020-03-08T20:06:28Z seok: wondering if it would cause performance hits
2020-03-08T20:07:19Z Odin-: seok: It may, but there's at least some effort to minimise it in some implementations.
2020-03-08T20:07:53Z seok: Because I don't know how much I will suffer in performance
2020-03-08T20:08:12Z seok: I can't make a decision whether to benefit in abstraction by using CLOS
2020-03-08T20:08:21Z seok: or to stick to hashes
2020-03-08T20:08:46Z Odin-: This is why you should use accessor functions either way, and profile diligently.
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2020-03-08T20:09:06Z seok: What is an accessor function?
2020-03-08T20:09:13Z seok: I don't profile :(
2020-03-08T20:09:38Z aeth: An accessor function has a reader (getter) and a writer (setter). It doesn't have to be a method, e.g. CAR is an accessor
2020-03-08T20:09:53Z seok: ah
2020-03-08T20:09:53Z aeth: (setf (car list) 42) and (car list)
2020-03-08T20:10:01Z seok: okok
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2020-03-08T20:10:32Z aeth: So you basically define a trivial function and a trivial matching SETF, and then the implementation details don't matter.
2020-03-08T20:11:05Z seok: Yeah
2020-03-08T20:11:09Z Odin-: Or start with a CLOS object with an accessor, and if that's not fast enough, you can change out the implementation if you need to.
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2020-03-08T20:13:08Z aeth: Right, but there's essentially no difference from the API's point of view (as long as the user doesn't do :before/:after/:around) how it's implemented because of the unified function/method syntax. It could even be a macro, but then there are more places where that illusion fails, like higher order functions.
2020-03-08T20:13:32Z Odin-: Yup.
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2020-03-08T20:14:02Z Odin-: And designing things so that you can change implementation details if needed is particularly useful for efficiency purposes.
2020-03-08T20:14:19Z aeth: I guess you could say that the concept of accessor is a bit... ducktyped? If there's a foo and an equivalent (setf foo) with the same API, then it's an accessor.
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2020-03-08T20:15:51Z seok: well i tried it
2020-03-08T20:16:04Z seok: accessor for clos takes 184054 cpu cycles
2020-03-08T20:16:11Z seok: for hash it takes 1404
2020-03-08T20:16:24Z seok: thats a big difference eh?
2020-03-08T20:17:32Z aeth: CLOS is doing a runtime generic dispatch.
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2020-03-08T20:17:50Z seok: ah
2020-03-08T20:17:57Z Odin-: It's kind of like the comparison between addition in C and addition in CL.
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2020-03-08T20:18:05Z Odin-: They're not really the same thing.
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2020-03-08T20:18:38Z seok: Ok, I timed CLOS again
2020-03-08T20:18:43Z seok: and it takes 2900 cycles
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2020-03-08T20:18:55Z seok: so not too bad
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2020-03-08T20:19:17Z aeth: I guess it must sort of JIT it?
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2020-03-08T20:19:33Z Odin-: Probably stores dispatch information somewhere.
2020-03-08T20:19:47Z seok: dunno, there seems to be some overhead in setting the variable the first time I call it
2020-03-08T20:20:10Z aeth: I wonder if adding a check-type before it is faster.
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2020-03-08T20:20:59Z aeth: because now it knows what it is
2020-03-08T20:21:57Z Odin-: In any case, the general rule is that you shouldn't bother trying to carefully optimise something unless you have evidence it's a hot path.
2020-03-08T20:22:14Z Odin-: Surprisingly often, the real wins aren't where you expect them.
2020-03-08T20:22:34Z seok: Right
2020-03-08T20:22:43Z seok: Ya, I don't get any work done overthinking things
2020-03-08T20:25:46Z Odin-: It's also worth remembering that CL implementations differ massively on the performance choices made.
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2020-03-08T20:47:39Z aeth: I only do detailed optimizations on SBCL because it actually provides the ability to do so without working too hard at it. My testing on the other implementations is more general rather than optimization.
2020-03-08T20:48:54Z aeth: The general advice is to avoid writing new macros where possible... but it kind of flips on its head if your program requires performance... Essentially, the more you can do in a macro, the less you have to do at runtime, and you don't have to care about the macro's performance at all (unless you're doing something really elaborate, which you won't be doing) so it can actually be easier.
2020-03-08T20:49:02Z aeth: But... most programs don't need that kind of performance.
2020-03-08T20:50:08Z aeth: (What I mean is that macros can be full of naive pure functions on lists without caring about if there are faster ways... so they can actually wind up being easier than normal high-performance code, in high-performance code.)
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2020-03-08T21:59:52Z jfb4: Xach, no-defun-allowed, pjb: belated (weeks) but many thanks for the several explanations above on tagged integers in CL, very interesting.  #lisp is a great community
2020-03-08T22:01:21Z no-defun-allowed: seok: What do you mean by "benchmark CLOS"?
2020-03-08T22:02:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, many implementations will compile generic functions into a dispatch function, reducing the overhead for subsequent calls.
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2020-03-08T22:18:21Z no-defun-allowed: mop compute-discriminating-function
2020-03-08T22:18:22Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-discriminating-function.html
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2020-03-09T01:34:22Z Jmabsd: Can you please explain the utility of Common Lisp "dynamic variables" please
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2020-03-09T01:41:04Z Josh_2: I can only think of times I have used it, when I need a variable that I can access in functions that are called after It's declaration
2020-03-09T01:41:10Z aeth: Jmabsd: They're mainly used for streams these days. It lets you do things like rebind *standard-output* to called functions without having to pass a standard-output variable through the entire call-stack, and once you leave the local rebinding, it is restored to its original value... (defun foo (stream) (let ((*standard-output* stream)) (format t "Hello, world!")))
2020-03-09T01:41:14Z Josh_2: but can't remember why I did it xD
2020-03-09T01:42:10Z no-defun-allowed: Special variables are good for "configuration" things.
2020-03-09T01:42:16Z aeth: Jmabsd: Now, you can just replace "t" with "stream" in my example and it's not too complicated, but imagine instead that that FORMAT is 10 functions deep in called functions instead of directly in FOO
2020-03-09T01:42:36Z aeth: You'd have to pass a stream variable each time.
2020-03-09T01:42:47Z aeth: For debugging/logging, this might not be a good idea.
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2020-03-09T01:44:07Z no-defun-allowed: They're also good for function "arguments" that you don't really want to make arguments. For example, in my networked CLOS extension, a client can use a special variable to disable automatic retrieval of objects that are in network objects' slots.
2020-03-09T01:44:13Z aeth: Essentially, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-cutting_concern
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2020-03-09T01:45:35Z aeth: You want your logging state to be in a special variable rather than in the parameters of every single function, or in the slots of data structures that are in the parameters of every single function.
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2020-03-09T02:45:06Z Jmabsd: anyone?
2020-03-09T02:46:14Z Bike: Jmabsd: aeth already gave you a reasonable explanation
2020-03-09T02:46:25Z Bike: though i think "usually used for streams" is an exaggeration
2020-03-09T02:46:25Z Jmabsd: ah, i see
2020-03-09T02:46:58Z Jmabsd: ah, i see his explanation
2020-03-09T02:47:01Z Jmabsd: > They're mainly used for streams these days. It lets you do things like rebind *standard-output* to called functions without having to pass a standard-output variable through the entire call-stack, and once you leave the local rebinding, it is restored to its original value... (defun foo (stream) (let ((*standard-output* stream)) (format t "Hello, world!")))
2020-03-09T02:47:07Z Jmabsd: > Now, you can just replace "t" with "stream" in my example and it's not too complicated, but imagine instead that that FORMAT is 10 functions deep in called functions instead of directly in FOO
2020-03-09T02:47:18Z Jmabsd: > You'd have to pass a stream variable each time. For debugging/logging, this might not be a good idea.
2020-03-09T02:47:20Z Jmabsd: um
2020-03-09T02:47:25Z Jmabsd: thanks! -
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2020-03-09T02:48:53Z Jmabsd: Bike,aeth: someone told me that dynamic variables is like, one variable definition that will lead to different variable slots, depending on the scope of the code
2020-03-09T02:49:32Z Bike: i don't know what that means
2020-03-09T02:49:53Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that's a little hard to understand.
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2020-03-09T02:51:10Z no-defun-allowed: My mental model is that the dynamic environment is an argument passed implicitly in every function call, and accepted implicitly by every function.
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2020-03-09T02:53:03Z no-defun-allowed: Then, to get SYMBOL-VALUE of a symbol, we look up the symbol in that argument. To bind a special variable with LET, we construct a new environment with that variable bound and call everything in the LET body with that new environment.
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2020-03-09T03:49:28Z Jmabsd: Bke,aeth: can you do something like this:
2020-03-09T03:49:38Z Jmabsd: first in global scope:  (defdynvar v)
2020-03-09T03:49:50Z Jmabsd: and then you do something like (defun (a) (with-dyn-var ((v 123)) (b)))
2020-03-09T03:49:55Z Jmabsd: (defun (b) (c))
2020-03-09T03:50:00Z Jmabsd: (defun (c) (print v))
2020-03-09T03:50:03Z Jmabsd: and v will print 123!
2020-03-09T03:50:10Z Jmabsd: Bike,aeth: is that possible?
2020-03-09T03:50:37Z Bike: well your syntax is completely wrong, but you have the basic idea correct, yes.
2020-03-09T03:51:03Z Bike: you'd write (defvar *v*) (defun a () (let ((*v* 123)) (b))) (defun b () (c)) (defun c () (print *v*))
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2020-03-09T04:04:19Z devon: Good evening all.
2020-03-09T04:05:31Z devon: Is there a QL way to "portably" create symbolic links?
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2020-03-09T04:17:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-09T04:17:43Z Jmabsd: Bike:: Oh, the (let ((*v* 123) will mean assignment of the dynamic variable??
2020-03-09T04:17:54Z devon: G'day.
2020-03-09T04:18:14Z Bike: Jmabsd: binding. it's analogous to your "with-dyn-var".
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2020-03-09T04:21:42Z Jmabsd: Bike: so normally, let means variable binding, but if a variable name belongs to a dynamic variable, let instead means dynamic variable instance allocaition and assignment?
2020-03-09T04:21:57Z Bike: yes, let can bind both lexical and special variables.
2020-03-09T04:22:08Z Jmabsd: Bike: can you give me a manual reference for dynamic variables?
2020-03-09T04:22:25Z Bike: sure, let me find it for you
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2020-03-09T04:22:27Z Jmabsd: interesting. so "lexical" is normal. what are other special variables ,than dynamic vairables?
2020-03-09T04:22:45Z Bike: "special" and "dynamic" are interchangeable in this context
2020-03-09T04:22:49Z Jmabsd: the leading and ending star means dynamic vairable??
2020-03-09T04:23:01Z Bike: yes. that's just a convention, since they're different from lexical variables
2020-03-09T04:23:02Z Jmabsd: or "defvar" means it's a dynamic vairable, in contrast with def which is the usual define form?
2020-03-09T04:23:14Z Bike: common lisp does not define any operator called "def"
2020-03-09T04:24:13Z Jmabsd: and the use (in print) is done implicitly
2020-03-09T04:24:15Z Bike: clhs 3.1.2.1.1.2
2020-03-09T04:24:16Z specbot: Dynamic Variables: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaab.htm
2020-03-09T04:24:27Z Jmabsd: i.e. Common Lisp will automatically typecheck for you that this is a dynamic vairable,
2020-03-09T04:24:31Z Jmabsd: and then pull out its content for you
2020-03-09T04:24:56Z Bike: it's not a type check, the compiler just knows which variables are lexical and which are dynamic, because you tell it so
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2020-03-09T04:26:44Z Jmabsd: Bike: err can you refer me to Lispworks' documentation for assigning and loading dynamic variables?
2020-03-09T04:26:58Z Jmabsd: Bike: the stars are necessary, in your example??
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2020-03-09T04:27:12Z Jmabsd: or could you as well just call it "v"
2020-03-09T04:27:17Z Bike: the stars are just a naming convention, so that you the human reader can tell lexical from dynamic variables easily
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2020-03-09T04:27:25Z Bike: they're not required by the language
2020-03-09T04:27:32Z Jmabsd:  (defvar v) (defun a () (let ((v 123)) (b))) (defun b () (c)) (defun c () (print v))
2020-03-09T04:27:39Z Jmabsd: ah.
2020-03-09T04:28:05Z Bike: as for assigning and "loading", special variables use the same syntax as regular ones
2020-03-09T04:28:09Z Jmabsd: ok, so it's "defvar" vs "def", ok
2020-03-09T04:28:13Z Jmabsd: ok
2020-03-09T04:28:16Z Bike: there is no "def"
2020-03-09T04:28:24Z Bike: i don't know why you think there is a "def", but there is not.
2020-03-09T04:28:36Z Jmabsd: ah
2020-03-09T04:28:36Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Alph_D.htm behold
2020-03-09T04:28:40Z Jmabsd: how do you define a normal global variable?
2020-03-09T04:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: clhs defvar
2020-03-09T04:28:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2020-03-09T04:28:59Z no-defun-allowed: clhs defparameter
2020-03-09T04:29:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2020-03-09T04:29:01Z Jmabsd: ummmmm
2020-03-09T04:29:03Z Jmabsd: hey hey
2020-03-09T04:29:04Z Jmabsd: wait
2020-03-09T04:29:12Z Jmabsd: so how do you define a dynamic vairable versus a normal one
2020-03-09T04:29:13Z no-defun-allowed: Ooh, "global". Not easily.
2020-03-09T04:29:19Z Bike: lisp doesn't have a mechanism for defining global lexical variables
2020-03-09T04:29:25Z Jmabsd: defvar is specifically to make a dynamic variable
2020-03-09T04:29:34Z Jmabsd: so all globals are dynamic??
2020-03-09T04:29:54Z Bike: global variables, yeah
2020-03-09T04:30:23Z Bike: there are also symbol macros, but that's a different can of fish
2020-03-09T04:30:59Z Jmabsd: ummmmmm ummm
2020-03-09T04:31:58Z Jmabsd: Bike: look at this http://paste.debian.net/1134081/
2020-03-09T04:32:28Z Jmabsd: will this one print out "123 234 "?
2020-03-09T04:32:39Z Bike: no, because your print call is wrong
2020-03-09T04:32:44Z Jmabsd: ah
2020-03-09T04:32:46Z no-defun-allowed: ^^
2020-03-09T04:32:46Z Jmabsd: how fix?
2020-03-09T04:32:51Z Jmabsd: remove the " "
2020-03-09T04:32:58Z Jmabsd: would it then print "123234"?
2020-03-09T04:33:15Z Bike: something like that yeah
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2020-03-09T04:35:06Z Jmabsd: Bike: do you have some more manual reference?
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2020-03-09T04:35:35Z Bike: for what
2020-03-09T04:35:40Z Jmabsd: dynamic variables
2020-03-09T04:35:51Z Bike: the page i linked is the core page
2020-03-09T04:35:55Z Jmabsd: Bike: so in other words, in Common Lisp, "let" will EITHER allocate a new variable slot, which is the case for lexical variables
2020-03-09T04:36:00Z Bike: from the definition of the semantics of the evaluation
2020-03-09T04:36:41Z Jmabsd: *OR* mean assignment of a dynamic variable, which is what it does if the bound variable name is a global define
2020-03-09T04:36:56Z Bike: binding. binding a dynamic variable.
2020-03-09T04:37:09Z Bike: you also shouldn't think of allocation, there's no reason a lexical variable couldn't be in a register.
2020-03-09T04:37:14Z Bike: but yes, LET can do two different things.
2020-03-09T04:37:16Z Jmabsd: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaab.htm ?
2020-03-09T04:37:27Z Jmabsd: interesting
2020-03-09T04:37:31Z Bike: that is the basic page on dynamic variables, yes.
2020-03-09T04:38:23Z seok: "let" assigns a variable within that scope only
2020-03-09T04:38:25Z Jmabsd: interesting
2020-03-09T04:38:35Z Jmabsd: can you give me the CL spec for dynamic variable
2020-03-09T04:38:47Z seok: which language are you from?
2020-03-09T04:38:54Z Jmabsd: some other language
2020-03-09T04:38:58Z Bike: i did give you the spec!
2020-03-09T04:39:01Z Jmabsd: seok: yeah in that scope, i follow you
2020-03-09T04:39:02Z Bike: it is this page.
2020-03-09T04:39:04Z beach: Jmabsd: The Common Lisp HyperSpec *is* the Common Lisp specification for all practical purposes.
2020-03-09T04:39:06Z Jmabsd: Bike: Lispworks is the CL spec? oh
2020-03-09T04:39:07Z seok: which language
2020-03-09T04:39:11Z Jmabsd: i see
2020-03-09T04:39:14Z seok: lispworks follows the CL spec
2020-03-09T04:39:16Z Jmabsd: does SBCL have its own page?
2020-03-09T04:39:20Z Bike: well, i mean, it's formatted to look nicer
2020-03-09T04:39:26Z Bike: but this is essentially the language standard.
2020-03-09T04:39:32Z Jmabsd: Bike: wait, all these links are to lispworks.com . is this the "CL HyperSpec"?
2020-03-09T04:39:36Z seok: SBCL and lispworks follow the same spec
2020-03-09T04:39:39Z seok: yes
2020-03-09T04:39:40Z Jmabsd: ic
2020-03-09T04:39:40Z Jmabsd: ok
2020-03-09T04:39:57Z seok: they have implementation specific functions, but they are within their own libraries
2020-03-09T04:40:01Z Jmabsd: ok!
2020-03-09T04:40:01Z seok: like sbcl:
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2020-03-09T04:41:19Z beach: Jmabsd: The ANSI standard is a document published by ANSI and exists only in printed form.  Lispworks obtained the right from ANSI to turn the standard into an HTML document, and that is the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2020-03-09T04:41:24Z Jmabsd: seok: yes?
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2020-03-09T04:41:31Z Jmabsd: beach: ic
2020-03-09T04:41:40Z Jmabsd: ok great, thanks for clarfying!
2020-03-09T04:42:00Z seok: still not sure what you are trying to understand from the spec for variables
2020-03-09T04:42:01Z Jmabsd: beach,Bike,*: about dynamic variables in Common Lisp, the conversaiton we have had on the topic now **is exhaustive** isn't it
2020-03-09T04:42:09Z Jmabsd: for instance, CL does *NOT* have first class continuations,
2020-03-09T04:42:13Z seok: they are just like variables in other languages
2020-03-09T04:42:29Z seok: that's why I asked which language you are from
2020-03-09T04:42:39Z Bike: i don't think first class continuations are directly related to dynamic variables, but no, lisp does not have first class continuations.
2020-03-09T04:42:45Z Jmabsd: and for this reason you don't need to be worried about really exotic GOTO:s or such
2020-03-09T04:43:06Z beach: Jmabsd: It sounds like you are confusing many things.
2020-03-09T04:43:09Z Bike: well, it does have escape continuations. they're not quite first class though.
2020-03-09T04:43:16Z Jmabsd: Bike: well, if you would do ultraexotic GOTO:s between continuations, you would end up with the question "which assignment of a dynamic variable, should apply in which continuation" :)
2020-03-09T04:43:21Z Jmabsd: right
2020-03-09T04:43:45Z Bike: you can work that kind of thing out, it just gets more complicated
2020-03-09T04:43:56Z Jmabsd: escape continuation means N-step return, right
2020-03-09T04:44:19Z Jmabsd: e.g. "please return the past five procedures for me"
2020-03-09T04:44:24Z Jmabsd: similar to C++ exception throwing in a way
2020-03-09T04:44:48Z Jmabsd: > Bike: you can work that kind of thing out, it just gets more complicated
2020-03-09T04:45:00Z Jmabsd: Bike: well, CL dynamic variables would not accomodate such toying
2020-03-09T04:45:09Z Jmabsd: they are relative to the stack's work upward only aren't they
2020-03-09T04:45:36Z Jmabsd: basically the "let" form that assigns a dynamic variable, **WILL RESET THAT DYNAMIC VARIABLE TO ITS ORIGINAL VALUE, AT RETURN TIME** righT?
2020-03-09T04:45:49Z beach: Right.
2020-03-09T04:45:59Z Jmabsd: awesome.
2020-03-09T04:46:12Z beach: Even when the LET form is terminated abnormally.
2020-03-09T04:46:52Z beach: As in (tagbody (let ((*v* 234)) (go a)) a)
2020-03-09T04:46:54Z Jmabsd: great.
2020-03-09T04:46:56Z Jmabsd: yep
2020-03-09T04:47:00Z Bike: i mean you can do dynamic variables with first class continuations. racket does
2020-03-09T04:47:32Z semz: What was the original reason for not adding FCCs anyway? Difficulty of implementation?
2020-03-09T04:48:03Z Bike: mostly just that common lisp was developed to standardize things lisps already did, and they didn't do first class continuations. i think.
2020-03-09T04:48:04Z beach: semz: Strange semantics mainly, coupled with doubts about performance and usefulness.
2020-03-09T04:48:25Z beach: That's my guess anyway.
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2020-03-09T04:48:28Z Bike: nowadays the new excitement is delimited continuations, anyway
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2020-03-09T04:49:42Z Jmabsd: Bike: your (tagbody (let ((*v* 234)) (go a)) a) example
2020-03-09T04:49:45Z Jmabsd: why is this abnormal
2020-03-09T04:49:57Z beach: semz: It is not particularly difficult to implement.  But either you need to have heap-allocated activation records, or you need some complicated stack copying when a continuation is captured.
2020-03-09T04:49:59Z Bike: my example?
2020-03-09T04:49:59Z Jmabsd: Bike: in Racket I presume they're called "parameter objects".
2020-03-09T04:50:07Z Bike: parameters, yes
2020-03-09T04:50:28Z beach: Jmabsd: That's my example.  It is "abnormal" because there is a non-local control transfer.
2020-03-09T04:50:43Z Jmabsd: ah, "go" you mean?
2020-03-09T04:50:46Z beach: Yes.
2020-03-09T04:52:42Z beach: Jmabsd: If I elaborate a bit, like (tagbody (let ((*v* 234)) (print "hello") (go a) (print "hi")) a) then the "hi" will never be printed, so the LET body does not finish normally.
2020-03-09T04:53:16Z Jmabsd: what does go mean actually, GOTO?
2020-03-09T04:53:32Z beach: Essentially, yes.
2020-03-09T04:53:40Z Jmabsd: ok
2020-03-09T04:53:43Z Jmabsd: so just like, goto somewhere
2020-03-09T04:53:55Z beach: And the tag that it is transferring to is outside the scope of the LET.
2020-03-09T04:54:37Z Jmabsd: great.
2020-03-09T04:54:47Z Jmabsd: beach,Bike,aeth: thanks a ton for all your clarifications!!
2020-03-09T04:54:58Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-03-09T04:55:06Z Bike: no problemo
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2020-03-09T05:15:51Z ebrasca: beach: Hi
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2020-03-09T05:28:58Z HiRE: howdy everyone
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2020-03-09T05:29:49Z beach: Hello HiRE.
2020-03-09T05:33:20Z HiRE: I got an opportunity to preach the good word about lisp
2020-03-09T05:33:23Z HiRE: a few days ago
2020-03-09T05:33:34Z HiRE: eventually I'll convert someone else to the church of parentheses
2020-03-09T05:33:55Z beach: Careful with that though.
2020-03-09T05:34:31Z HiRE: do I need to be careful who I convert
2020-03-09T05:35:00Z no-defun-allowed: Where did you "preach"?
2020-03-09T05:35:01Z beach: If you "convert" someone who then uses Common Lisp in a project, and something goes wrong, or that person uses it in a non-optimal way, you are the one responsible.
2020-03-09T05:35:32Z HiRE: oh it wasn't in a professional context. Someone asked me what the perfect idea of a language was and followed it up with if I could build a computer what would it look like
2020-03-09T05:35:40Z HiRE: I got to talk about why lisp is great and lisp machines were a good idea.
2020-03-09T05:35:42Z beach: HiRE: Then, if you are not able to fix the problems, Common Lisp as a whole will be blamed, and you will have had the opposite effect.
2020-03-09T05:35:58Z beach: HiRE: Oh, OK.
2020-03-09T05:36:02Z beach: Just be careful.
2020-03-09T05:36:08Z HiRE: yeah what you say makes sense
2020-03-09T05:36:28Z HiRE: thankfully lisp is gross to most people in the professional sense. If FAANG+ don't use it, it may as well not exist.
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2020-03-09T05:36:35Z HiRE: At least this has been my experience as a consultant
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2020-03-09T05:38:19Z HiRE: I had a funny thought the other day on campus with all the bible beaters coming around this time of year to preach we're all destined for eternal suffering
2020-03-09T05:38:40Z HiRE: I thought it would've been funny for one of them to tell me that and tell follow up with "yeah that's great and all but have you heard about lisp?"
2020-03-09T05:40:35Z no-defun-allowed: It's usually funnier to claim you partake in all the things that they think cause suffering, but I did give up on trying to advocate the use of Lisp, except for myself.
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2020-03-09T05:42:21Z HiRE: yeah im just in the honeymoon phase
2020-03-09T05:42:28Z HiRE: I'll become jaded at the world again soon enough
2020-03-09T05:43:07Z Josh_2: I agree with no-defun-allowed
2020-03-09T05:45:27Z HiRE: I do think one of the interesting aspects of lisp is that iirc you can compile lisp from the 60s still
2020-03-09T05:45:37Z HiRE: I dont know of many languages that have that level of backwards compatibility.
2020-03-09T05:45:45Z HiRE: I dont think fortran does
2020-03-09T05:45:56Z HiRE: algol maybe? lol
2020-03-09T05:57:20Z beach: HiRE: "bible beaters" coming to campus?  You must live in a very strange country.
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2020-03-09T05:58:34Z HiRE: beach, I live in the southwest US. Campuses here are open so we get all walks of extreme life wandering on campus to preach (not just the religious kind, but they seem to be the most common)
2020-03-09T05:58:53Z beach: So I was right.  You *do* live in a very strange country.
2020-03-09T05:59:02Z HiRE: As long as they aren't creating a hostile (read: violent) situation the campus police tend to let them do what they want.
2020-03-09T05:59:15Z HiRE: yeah certainly weird
2020-03-09T05:59:23Z HiRE: I'd imagine in other countries that doesnt happen
2020-03-09T05:59:31Z beach: Not here.
2020-03-09T05:59:52Z HiRE: whereabouts are you?
2020-03-09T05:59:59Z beach: France, EU.
2020-03-09T06:00:13Z HiRE: oh cool. Are campuses closed off to non-students there?
2020-03-09T06:00:35Z beach: No, I don't think so.
2020-03-09T06:00:43Z HiRE: must be cultural then :p
2020-03-09T06:00:51Z beach: It's just that not many people are religious in western Europe.
2020-03-09T06:01:15Z beach: Also, France has a strict separation between church and state, and campuses are run by the state.
2020-03-09T06:01:18Z no-defun-allowed: Also not the case in Australia, and this university has a pretty open campus.
2020-03-09T06:01:26Z HiRE: oh like I said religious are the most common but we get very...expressive PETA people trying to block the SU to stop meat eaters for example.
2020-03-09T06:01:34Z HiRE: usually around holiday
2020-03-09T06:01:46Z beach: But we are drifting off topic.
2020-03-09T06:01:52Z HiRE: yes, its off topic for the channel - sorry.
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2020-03-09T06:05:38Z aeth: It's more that the US government can't stop people from speaking in public spaces on public campuses because of the first amendment iirc. It's definitely exploitable. Start giving out LispOSes and spreading Lisp.
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2020-03-09T06:06:53Z Josh_2: aeth: exactly
2020-03-09T06:06:58Z Josh_2: Lisp evangelism here we go!
2020-03-09T06:07:20Z HiRE: steal their techniques. Hand out usb drives with a copy of PCL, SICP, and a VM of genera
2020-03-09T06:07:44Z aeth: hand out CD-ROMs, true believers will find ways to read them
2020-03-09T06:07:48Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe not the last one.
2020-03-09T06:07:49Z HiRE: ah good idea
2020-03-09T06:08:07Z HiRE: the CD is the pure shape formed of a single empty S-expr
2020-03-09T06:08:35Z HiRE: a representation of the neophyte lisper
2020-03-09T06:09:55Z aeth: '(o) is basically a CD-ROM
2020-03-09T06:10:08Z Josh_2: you can get some pretty cheap USB's
2020-03-09T06:10:23Z aeth: yes, that's the joke, that CD-ROMs are probably more expensive these days because they're old tech
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2020-03-09T06:16:06Z perdent: How do you  calculate the Solubility Product Constant of a chemical e.g AgF in lisp?
2020-03-09T06:16:36Z no-defun-allowed: How do you calculate it without Lisp?
2020-03-09T06:17:09Z perdent: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Equilibria/Solubilty/Solubility_Product_Constant%2C_Ksp
2020-03-09T06:17:12Z perdent: Like that
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2020-03-09T06:18:13Z HiRE: you'd probably need a chemist to write it but there's no reason lisp *couldnt* do it
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2020-03-09T06:18:40Z perdent: HiRE no calculators exist online for it
2020-03-09T06:18:57Z beach: perdent: You would probably use the same formula in Common Lisp as in other languages.
2020-03-09T06:18:58Z perdent: so i cant imagine it being easy to write in lisp
2020-03-09T06:19:05Z perdent: or any lang
2020-03-09T06:19:13Z HiRE: it probably has less to do with the difficulty and more to do with the consumers of it
2020-03-09T06:19:23Z HiRE: if there aren't many people using it, and its specialized enough, no one is going to write a calculator for it
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2020-03-09T06:19:41Z HiRE: A good example of something I've written that calculators dont really exist for (or are hard to find) are greeks for exotic options
2020-03-09T06:20:00Z HiRE: The math isn't difficult to translate - just no one's done it because its highly specialized bank stuff.
2020-03-09T06:20:08Z no-defun-allowed: The rule is there already.
2020-03-09T06:21:11Z HiRE: probably be a little nicer in CL since you can do some fun stuff with symbols to make the formula entry easier to write maybe.
2020-03-09T06:22:36Z no-defun-allowed: Say you have (defstruct product coefficient concentration), then the rule for each product could be (defun product-solubility-constant (product) (expt (product-concentration output) (product-coefficient output))), and then your SPC would be (reduce #'* products :key #'product-solubility-constant).
2020-03-09T06:23:13Z perdent: no-defun-allowed can you show me in here: https://rextester.com/l/common_lisp_online_compiler
2020-03-09T06:23:19Z no-defun-allowed: perdent: I'll leave making it symbolic to you, but as HiRE says, it should be pretty easy to do in Lisp (and moreso with a pattern matcher).
2020-03-09T06:23:23Z perdent: HiRE*
2020-03-09T06:23:37Z no-defun-allowed: No, I just gave you the relevant definitions.
2020-03-09T06:23:44Z HiRE: this strikes me as a homework question :)
2020-03-09T06:24:57Z HiRE: I dont really know enough to solve an equilibrium equation. I'm a CS guy and I only had to take intro chemistry in my undergrad.
2020-03-09T06:25:08Z HiRE: But it may be useful to start there and write the system to get the equilibrium equation.
2020-03-09T06:26:22Z no-defun-allowed: perdent: I'm quite busy with some other work, but that's basically all you need for the equation you gave me.
2020-03-09T06:26:44Z HiRE: you could have some function equilbrium solver that takes a number of chemical objects. Each chemical has it's associated ionic properties attached to it. Then you can return the a, b, c of the equilbrium
2020-03-09T06:26:52Z perdent: no-defun-allowed so it cant be done in one line and fit all equations given?
2020-03-09T06:26:59Z perdent: all compounds*
2020-03-09T06:27:17Z HiRE: a,c,d**
2020-03-09T06:27:20Z no-defun-allowed: And if this is homework for some class, I strongly encourage you to check your school's rules on plagiarism. My university does consider it plagiarism to get code from anyone.
2020-03-09T06:28:00Z no-defun-allowed: That description and that code was all on one line.
2020-03-09T06:28:33Z Josh_2: They don't have to know though :P
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2020-03-09T06:29:07Z HiRE: well if your professor accepts a solution in lisp, they might be lurking this here channel ;D
2020-03-09T06:29:19Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: Hey, I don't think I'd be getting out of it easily if I helped someone else cheat in their classes.
2020-03-09T06:30:28Z perdent: nope its not homework
2020-03-09T06:30:44Z perdent: it can be in any language
2020-03-09T06:30:54Z perdent: doesnt have to be lisp
2020-03-09T06:31:14Z no-defun-allowed: This is #lisp, so we're only giving Lisp answers.
2020-03-09T06:32:06Z perdent: Yes which is why I asked in lisp how to do it
2020-03-09T06:32:14Z perdent: But i have been asking in other channels too
2020-03-09T06:32:57Z slyrus_: just to waste various channels' members time or for some more principled reason?
2020-03-09T06:33:10Z no-defun-allowed: Right. You can use the rules I gave then.
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2020-03-09T06:34:56Z Josh_2: In first year I wrote half my friends C++ code oof
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2020-03-09T06:35:02Z Josh_2: doesn't count to the degree so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-03-09T06:45:01Z perdent: Im not sure your rules work
2020-03-09T06:45:13Z perdent: But I only know python im still learning lisp
2020-03-09T06:47:40Z buffergn0me: perdent: https://common-lisp.net/project/chemboy/ might have something useful
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2020-03-09T06:54:39Z no-defun-allowed: I'm pretty confident my rules work. Did I make a mistake there?
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2020-03-09T12:46:20Z didi: So, I want to give each object an unique identifier. Is GENSYM a good function for this?
2020-03-09T12:46:38Z jmercouris: I don't see why not
2020-03-09T12:46:38Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: the size of source files and their arrangement doesn't matter: just write an emacs command to fetch and save toplevel forms automatically in any organization you like and forget it! Don't visit lisp file, visit lisp toplevel forms!
2020-03-09T12:46:45Z didi: jmercouris: Thanks.
2020-03-09T12:47:12Z jmercouris: maybe a more straightforward solution would be incrementing some integer
2020-03-09T12:47:23Z didi: jmercouris: That was my first thought.
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2020-03-09T12:48:38Z jackdaniel: gensym is not a good way to achieve this (unless you depend on eq, not the string-name)
2020-03-09T12:48:39Z didi: Although... How do I retrieve an object using a GENSYM? Hum...
2020-03-09T12:48:43Z jackdaniel: s/string-name/symbol-name/
2020-03-09T12:48:53Z didi: jackdaniel: Indeed.
2020-03-09T12:49:03Z jackdaniel: indeed what?
2020-03-09T12:49:26Z didi: jackdaniel: It's not a good way, I think now.
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2020-03-09T12:50:21Z didi: Back to integers.
2020-03-09T12:50:56Z beach: didi: You retrieve the objects by sticking them in a hash table.
2020-03-09T12:51:26Z jmercouris: I was just thinking of gensym to make keys to the hash table
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2020-03-09T12:52:44Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: what for?
2020-03-09T12:52:48Z jmercouris: why not?
2020-03-09T12:52:56Z jmercouris: I mean it would work just fine
2020-03-09T12:53:48Z jackdaniel: usually you put something in a hash table to retreive it by a key
2020-03-09T12:53:58Z jmercouris: right, and if you want a unique key?
2020-03-09T12:53:59Z jackdaniel: are you going to have a separate collection of keys?
2020-03-09T12:54:17Z jmercouris: not necessarily, you could still iterate over the hash table
2020-03-09T12:54:27Z jmercouris: and maybe those objects themselves also know their key
2020-03-09T12:54:41Z jmercouris: I don't know the application here, but if you are just trying for unique names, gensym would suffice
2020-03-09T12:54:45Z jackdaniel: this does not make much sense to me
2020-03-09T12:55:26Z jackdaniel: if you want to iterate over a collection, then sequence is plenty
2020-03-09T12:55:38Z jmercouris: sometimes compound data structures are very useful
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2020-03-09T12:55:44Z jackdaniel: if you are going to find keys in objects, then why query the hash table?
2020-03-09T12:55:45Z beach: I totally agree with jackdaniel.
2020-03-09T12:55:57Z jmercouris: how can you agree upon a theoretical application?
2020-03-09T12:56:04Z jmercouris: we have no idea what/how the objects will be used :-D
2020-03-09T12:56:14Z jmercouris: anyways, whatever :-D
2020-03-09T12:56:17Z jackdaniel: don't get me wrong, I find hash tables very important part of CL, just your proposal doesn't make sense
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2020-03-09T12:59:04Z jackdaniel: that reminds me a story from university - we had a group project and I've convinced folks, that we should do it in CL (they will do the C part and I will code the CL part) -- it was a success, we've all passed
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2020-03-09T12:59:49Z jackdaniel: since I didn't want any instability in the project, I've asked them to implement a hash table in C; and then when they were not able to deliver in time, I've "remembered", that common lisp has hash tables
2020-03-09T13:02:22Z jackdaniel: (so there was no C in the project in the end)
2020-03-09T13:07:24Z beach: Nice!
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2020-03-09T13:21:10Z _death: why weren't they able to implement a hash table?
2020-03-09T13:22:29Z jackdaniel: they had a prototype, but it had bugs
2020-03-09T13:22:37Z _death: also, in the end, was all the code written by you?
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2020-03-09T13:23:06Z jackdaniel: the frontend part was written by another guy in js/html; we've also all designed the solution
2020-03-09T13:23:08Z lieven: lol it's not like there are no C libraries that implement hash tables
2020-03-09T13:23:24Z jmercouris: yeah, there are a ton of them
2020-03-09T13:23:32Z jmercouris: it sounds like your classmates simply did not wish to do the task
2020-03-09T13:23:48Z jackdaniel: it was not allowed to use 3rd-party libraries
2020-03-09T13:24:09Z jackdaniel: and it made sense. like: there is i.e plenty of graph libraries, but when you learn about graph algorithms you are expected to write them
2020-03-09T13:24:21Z lieven: sure
2020-03-09T13:24:41Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how that makes sense, in my classes you were always allowed 3rd party libraries
2020-03-09T13:24:48Z jmercouris: unless the purpose of the problem was to implement something like a hash table
2020-03-09T13:24:58Z jmercouris: if that was just a secondary aspect of the problem, then I see it as wholly irrelevant
2020-03-09T13:25:07Z _death: a simple hash table is not something you need a library for..
2020-03-09T13:25:24Z jmercouris: no, but maybe you want a lot of data structures and they come in a nice little C library
2020-03-09T13:25:27Z jmercouris: why reinvent the wheel?
2020-03-09T13:25:46Z _death: jmercouris: the wheel gets reinvented all the time, by everyone
2020-03-09T13:25:47Z dlowe: it's really easy to come up with a terrible hash function
2020-03-09T13:25:51Z jackdaniel: reinventing a wheel is a great learning experience
2020-03-09T13:25:57Z jmercouris: IF the goal is to make a wheel
2020-03-09T13:26:10Z jmercouris: if you are making a car, there is no need to make each wheel, that's not the point of the exercise, that's what I'm saying
2020-03-09T13:26:29Z jmercouris: of course we implemented all sorts of data structures, but only when it was the point to learn those data structures
2020-03-09T13:26:41Z jmercouris: otherwise we use another implementation, as one would do in real life
2020-03-09T13:28:07Z jackdaniel: I don't think that this regime of learning brought you to a proficiency in looking for solutions
2020-03-09T13:28:40Z jackdaniel: s/looking for/coming up with/
2020-03-09T13:28:53Z jmercouris: I'm not sure why you always make things so personal
2020-03-09T13:29:05Z jmercouris: Let me rephrase what you just said
2020-03-09T13:29:13Z jmercouris: "Your university sucked, and you are an idiot"
2020-03-09T13:29:34Z jackdaniel: that is very rude of you to put such words in my mouth
2020-03-09T13:29:40Z jmercouris: lol, get off your high horse
2020-03-09T13:29:44Z jmercouris: you started by blatantly insulting me
2020-03-09T13:29:49Z jmercouris: anyone can clearly see that by what you wrote
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2020-03-09T13:30:16Z jackdaniel: no, I've commented that you often ask very basic questions, yet you are very certain about your opinions regarding education
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2020-03-09T13:32:15Z jackdaniel: as a side note, and it is the last thing I want to add to this, is that the way you put critic matters, i.e it is a difference when you say, that someone is not proficient in something and when you say that someone is stupid.
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2020-03-09T13:32:39Z jackdaniel: and both phrasings mean completely different things
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2020-03-09T13:33:50Z _death: I would also like to say that the novelty in implementing yet another hash table may be a personal novelty: gaining an understanding of something
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2020-03-09T13:34:08Z jmercouris: you just don't know when to stop
2020-03-09T13:34:20Z jmercouris: "you always ask such stupid simple things"
2020-03-09T13:34:24Z _death: that's why it's good to reinvent wheels
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2020-03-09T13:34:38Z jmercouris: you may be a good programmer, but you are lacking social skills
2020-03-09T13:34:42Z jackdaniel: I've understood pointers after countless hours of implementing linked lists
2020-03-09T13:34:44Z jmercouris: and with that, I'm off for now
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2020-03-09T13:35:16Z jackdaniel: I need to have a permanent "bad guy" badget pinned, so people don't confuse me for a nice person I suppose
2020-03-09T13:35:21Z jackdaniel: badge*
2020-03-09T13:35:26Z _death: jackdaniel: interesting.. my understanding of pointers was natural because I learned assembly before C :)
2020-03-09T13:35:35Z jackdaniel: heh
2020-03-09T13:35:41Z jackdaniel: C was my first language
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2020-03-09T13:37:38Z _death: and they were more various than plain C.. there were near pointers and far pointers, you had to understand segments, banking, etc.
2020-03-09T13:38:12Z jackdaniel: I'm oblivious to such concerns
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2020-03-09T15:02:43Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: fwiw, once again, I agree with what you said
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2020-03-09T15:04:48Z jackdaniel: a badge it is then :) more seriously though - thanks
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2020-03-09T18:12:28Z random-nick: what exactly are logical pathnames?
2020-03-09T18:12:52Z random-nick: CLHS just says it's implementation-dependant
2020-03-09T18:14:50Z pjb: random-nick: logical pathnames are not implementation dependent.  physical pathnames are implementation dependent.
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2020-03-09T18:15:34Z pjb: random-nick: so logical pathnames are implementation independent abstract pathnames that you can use in your application independently of the actual physical pathnames on the target platform.
2020-03-09T18:16:03Z pjb: random-nick: the program, or the user, may provide a translation table to map logical pathnames to physical pathnames.
2020-03-09T18:16:34Z didi: How do I read the other keys of (lambda (&key &allow-other-keys) ...)?
2020-03-09T18:16:48Z Bike: What do you mean, didi?
2020-03-09T18:16:49Z pjb: didi: with &rest.
2020-03-09T18:17:30Z didi: Bike: ((lambda (&key &allow-other-keys)) :foo "bar") and I want to know :foo.
2020-03-09T18:17:33Z didi: pjb: Thanks.
2020-03-09T18:17:39Z pjb: ((lambda (&rest other-keys &key &allow-other-keys) (loop for (k v) on other-keys by (function cddr) collect k)) :foo 42 :bar 33) #| --> (:foo :bar) |#
2020-03-09T18:17:39Z Bike: ah. then yeah, &rest
2020-03-09T18:17:55Z didi bows
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2020-03-09T19:13:30Z rpg: Could anyone offer a pointer to a Travis configuration for testing a CL library?
2020-03-09T19:14:33Z fe[nl]ix: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/blob/master/.travis.yml
2020-03-09T19:14:40Z rpg: Thanks!
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2020-03-09T19:57:58Z jcowan: Can anyone point me to a description of how threads and dynamic variables interact, especially in systems using kernel-level threads?  Obviously this is implementation-specific, but I don't at present care which implementation is described.
2020-03-09T20:00:22Z Bike: that's actually semi standardized. see make-thread in https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation
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2020-03-09T20:01:14Z Bike: tl;dr globals are shared, bindings are not, new threads may or may not inherit bindings.
2020-03-09T20:02:19Z White_Flame: and being OS-provided threads vs userspace threading implementation shouldn't matter
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2020-03-09T20:13:57Z jcowan: Thanks.
2020-03-09T20:17:08Z jcowan: When local bindings are not shared, are they typically copied from the creating threads, or set to the global value?
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2020-03-09T20:19:13Z phoe: likely the latter
2020-03-09T20:19:18Z phoe: or rather
2020-03-09T20:19:19Z fe[nl]ix: it's implementation-specific
2020-03-09T20:19:31Z Inline: global poisoning ?
2020-03-09T20:19:33Z Inline: bleh
2020-03-09T20:19:41Z Inline: that's not wished for anyway
2020-03-09T20:19:46Z phoe: it is possible to set the global binding from one thread and have that affect the other
2020-03-09T20:19:53Z phoe: at least in some impls
2020-03-09T20:20:01Z fe[nl]ix: that's why bordeaux-threads has its own way of specifying initial bindings
2020-03-09T20:20:03Z jcowan: So there are three cases: shared, copied, completely new?
2020-03-09T20:20:08Z Inline: either you have some application logic which requires copying values to globals
2020-03-09T20:20:16Z phoe: so if you do not want that to happen, do what fe[nl]ix says and create new bindings for that thread
2020-03-09T20:20:24Z Inline: or you somehow can access them thread-local wise.....
2020-03-09T20:20:35Z phoe: or if you *want* globals that you can edit from between multiple threads, use https://github.com/lmj/global-vars
2020-03-09T20:20:46Z Bike: two cases. a new thread either accesses its own bindings (with copied values or not), or global bindings. it can't alter its parent's bindings.
2020-03-09T20:20:50Z Bike: i think
2020-03-09T20:22:28Z jcowan: Bordeaux-threads explicitly permits this
2020-03-09T20:22:44Z Bike: Permits what?
2020-03-09T20:23:02Z Bike: oh, you're right. never mind me then.
2020-03-09T20:23:10Z fe[nl]ix: jcowan: AFAIK no implementation shares bindings
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2020-03-09T20:23:18Z jcowan: Shared local bindings: "Local bindings in the the caller of MAKE-THREAD may or may not be shared with the new thread that it creates: this is implementation-defined."
2020-03-09T20:23:25Z Bike: thought it was just talking about the values, my b
2020-03-09T20:23:54Z fe[nl]ix: so it's either copy or null (revert to global)
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2020-03-09T20:24:21Z jcowan: I'm surprised that b-t explicitly permits this if it's unused by any implementation.
2020-03-09T20:24:48Z Bike: might have been done when b-t was new?
2020-03-09T20:25:05Z fe[nl]ix: jcowan: what are you referring to ?
2020-03-09T20:25:18Z jcowan scratches his head
2020-03-09T20:25:31Z jcowan: The remark I quoted above, which comes from the linked page on b-t
2020-03-09T20:26:14Z fe[nl]ix: I need to update the docs
2020-03-09T20:26:31Z fe[nl]ix: that sentence refers to the native behaviour
2020-03-09T20:26:42Z jcowan: Different Schemes use all three strategies: the null strategy has been declared non-conformant, and the other two strategies are finessed by not allowing local bindings to be mutated as opposed to rebound.
2020-03-09T20:27:07Z jcowan: s/finessed/& in portable code
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2020-03-09T20:27:58Z Inline: so you can't add new bindings nor delete existing bindings in a thread from the outside
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2020-03-09T20:28:21Z Inline: you can only change the values of the existing bindings in that thread
2020-03-09T20:28:45Z Inline: ?
2020-03-09T20:29:34Z jcowan: Only if you share a common ancestry with them and your implementation uses the sharing approach.  Nobody that I know of allows you to mutate the bindings of an arbitrary thread from an arbitrary other thread.
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2020-03-09T20:30:16Z Inline: hmmm
2020-03-09T20:30:59Z Bike: sbcl exports sb-thread:symbol-value-in-thread, which lets you read and write them from other threads.
2020-03-09T20:31:36Z fe[nl]ix: jcowan: (bt:interrupt-thread <thead> (lambda () (setf *foo* 42)))
2020-03-09T20:31:54Z jcowan: Bike: ah, thanks
2020-03-09T20:32:07Z jcowan: so essentially running code in the context of another thread
2020-03-09T20:33:19Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2020-03-09T20:33:49Z fe[nl]ix: you can implement symbol-value-in-thread in terms of interrupt-thread
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2020-03-09T20:42:11Z jcowan: I note that b-t supports the eeeeevil destroy-thread
2020-03-09T20:42:36Z White_Flame: it always bugs me from a micro-optimization perspective that there's no (as far as I'm aware) declaration to say "always use the TLS value, and don't fallback to global"
2020-03-09T20:43:09Z White_Flame: since lots of my usage only ever uses a tread-local binding
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2020-03-09T20:43:41Z White_Flame: and the disasembly always shows a test for unbound TLS lookup and fallback to global
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2020-03-09T20:59:51Z phoe: seems like there's no explicit per-thread-local storage in modern implementations
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2020-03-09T21:00:21Z phoe: like static global variables from global-vars, just having a per-thread binding that is impossible to rebind
2020-03-09T21:01:55Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Thanks for sending that Travis script.  I have it *almost* working thanks to your help.  I'm getting a problem where my 5AM test job runs long, and Travis squashes it because of no output for 10 minutes.  Do you by any chance know if there's a way to cause 5AM to periodically write something to the console?
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2020-03-09T21:04:31Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: while not as convenient as simply putting a symbol, you may use sb-thread:symbol-value-in-thread
2020-03-09T21:06:37Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Actually, never mind -- I found a loop that would run very long, not printing anything unless some member of its set of plans failed.  Adding gratuitous output will fix this, I hope!
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2020-03-09T21:07:06Z phoe: rpg: one usually wants plenty of output in CI logs anyway, in case something goes bad
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2020-03-09T21:07:54Z jackdaniel: however I doubt it will be faster
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2020-03-09T21:12:03Z White_Flame: yeah, that's a pretty reasonable doubt :-P
2020-03-09T21:12:13Z White_Flame: although, might as well test
2020-03-09T21:15:36Z White_Flame: doesn't look like there's any inline optimization in using sb-thread:*current-thread*, although it's next to tools that might be abke to hack direct access
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2020-03-09T21:18:10Z jcowan: You could simulate per-thread variables by using thread objects as property indicators on the p-list of the symbol, though you'd need to gc them somehow if you have lots of threads being created and dying.
2020-03-09T21:18:23Z rpg: phoe: Yes.  This isn't really useful information I am printing, though -- it's more a heartbeat than anything else.
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2020-03-09T21:22:26Z White_Flame: yeah, manually using the low-level TLS access stuff compiles to much larger code than dereferencing a variable. It doesn't constant propagate the symbol offset, and currently has to hit the symbol-value of *current-thread*
2020-03-09T21:23:07Z White_Flame: although, it reads *current-thread* ONLY from the TLS without a global fallback, which is exactly what I want.  I wonder how it's declared...
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2020-03-09T21:23:53Z White_Flame: (sb-impl::define-thread-local <var> <val> <doc>).  Cool
2020-03-09T21:25:11Z White_Flame: but... that doesn't seem to exist at runtime :-P
2020-03-09T21:27:26Z White_Flame: I think the "best" way might be to define a custom VOP, since it generates just a single asm instruction
2020-03-09T21:29:52Z phoe: rpg: (let ((stream *standard-output*)) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop do (sleep 10) if *keep-printing-p* do (princ "." stream) else (loop-finish)))))
2020-03-09T21:30:06Z phoe: I mean, else do (loop-finish)
2020-03-09T21:33:34Z Bike: White_Flame: there's an sb-ext:global proclamation, so sbcl could just be extended to have the opposite of that
2020-03-09T21:33:50Z White_Flame: yeah, I've used that one
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2020-03-09T21:36:21Z jackdaniel: while local would be proper english, disglobal sounds so much better ,)
2020-03-09T21:36:46Z Shinmera: unglobald
2020-03-09T21:38:38Z aeth: We can use "special characters" in names. Take advantage of that. ~global or ¬global
2020-03-09T21:39:54Z Bike: i guess the issue is that global is a pretty easy to enforce declaration, but local is not
2020-03-09T21:40:15Z Bike: maybe if you also gave it a default thread local binding
2020-03-09T21:40:43Z phoe: but you can't do that with a declaration alone, or can you
2020-03-09T21:40:56Z phoe: s/declaration/proclamation/
2020-03-09T21:41:50Z sjl: def🌐
2020-03-09T21:41:52Z Bike: you could have proclaim signal an error if you try to proclaim local-ness for a variable with no default thread local whatever... i guess the default thread local whatevers can be removed later, though.
2020-03-09T21:42:26Z phoe: or proclaim it to be local
2020-03-09T21:42:36Z phoe: and have the default value be the unbound marker
2020-03-09T21:42:44Z phoe: just like in case of one-arg DEFVAR
2020-03-09T21:43:12Z White_Flame: that's the existing behavior
2020-03-09T21:43:26Z Bike: oh, yeah, that's true, i guess you don't need to worry about boundedness so much
2020-03-09T21:43:32Z White_Flame: the TLS table is checked first, and if it's unbound, then the global slot is used
2020-03-09T21:43:38Z Bike: just compile references to *foo* to check the TL value and then otherwise signal unbound
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2020-03-09T21:44:02Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: I can't help but wonder, is this really the bottleneck in your application?
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2020-03-09T21:44:16Z White_Flame: no, it's just a tiny microoptimization, as stated
2020-03-09T21:44:24Z White_Flame: something that annoys me in disassemblies
2020-03-09T21:44:31Z jackdaniel: ah, OK
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2020-03-09T21:44:52Z White_Flame: but writes are actually worse than reads, which I do quite often to set debugging progress info
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2020-03-09T21:45:01Z jackdaniel: I rarely look at disassemblies, usually when I have a bottleneck which can't be normally addressed or when I have some nasty bug
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2020-03-09T22:01:35Z aeth: I frequently look at disassemblies. It can be very useful to e.g. objectively see if two different ways to write the code produce the same end result in a given compiler (and optimization levels, etc.).
2020-03-09T22:02:30Z White_Flame: it can also be useful to increase blood pressure in seeing a lack of peephole optimizer in sbcl ;)
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2020-03-09T22:03:15Z aeth: I kind of wish there was an exposed IR (if compilers use IR) because you don't really need the *assembly*, you just need something to show that two things are equivalent.
2020-03-09T22:06:38Z jackdaniel: hm, interesting idea
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2020-03-09T22:07:22Z jackdaniel: maybe it could be an extension to disassemble as a keyword argument
2020-03-09T22:07:27Z jackdaniel: :show-ir t
2020-03-09T22:11:28Z aeth: If the IR is returned as s-expressions from a function, then you could just EQUALP a global to see if changing the code changes the IR...
2020-03-09T22:12:01Z aeth: Sometimes that's all you need.
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2020-03-09T22:20:45Z elderK: Good morning, everyone!
2020-03-09T22:20:45Z minion: elderK, memo from phoe: PLNs are now in SBCL, CCL, ECL, ACL, ABCL, Clasp, and will be available in LW after the next release.
2020-03-09T22:20:57Z elderK: I was wondering why some people enter the cl-user package before they define new packages.
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2020-03-09T22:21:47Z aeth: elderK: because DEFPACKAGE might not be there.
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2020-03-09T22:22:16Z aeth: elderK: I personally do (cl:defpackage ...) and (cl:in-package ...) but most tools aren't smart enough to realize that that's the same thing as defpackage and in-package
2020-03-09T22:22:23Z aeth: So it does break e.g. highlighting
2020-03-09T22:22:47Z elderK: aeth: Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thank you.
2020-03-09T22:22:57Z jackdaniel: I always use defpackage and in-package
2020-03-09T22:23:15Z aeth: elderK: Until you get to the line after the cl:in-package part of your file, you simply don't know what package you're actually in. So everything before that point should use cl, if they're not first in-packaged instead.
2020-03-09T22:23:16Z jackdaniel: if someone spoofs these symbols when loading/compiling the file, then they probably know what they are doing
2020-03-09T22:23:31Z aeth: jackdaniel: I'm more concerned about the symbol not being present at all, rather than being spoofed.
2020-03-09T22:23:53Z jackdaniel: it is unlikely it won't exist
2020-03-09T22:24:08Z jackdaniel: and you give a freeway to people who want to do interesting things with packages
2020-03-09T22:24:20Z jackdaniel: (by not specifying cl verbatim)
2020-03-09T22:24:46Z jackdaniel: note, that you don't know what readtable you are in neither (;
2020-03-09T22:25:06Z elderK: Another question I have, regarding aesthetics, is regarding the margin used by most CL developers. In the C world, I'm used to working within 76 characters. I have been trying to keep to that limit in the CL I write, but I'm finding it difficult.
2020-03-09T22:25:24Z elderK: So, I was wondering what the common limit is :)
2020-03-09T22:25:33Z elderK: Also, hi jackdaniel! I know you from #osdev :)
2020-03-09T22:25:50Z jackdaniel: I don't think I've ever joined this channel
2020-03-09T22:26:04Z aeth: jackdaniel: Well, all I do about the reader is not assume upcasing. So I do (symbol-name '#:foo) instead of "FOO" in macros. A compiler should be able to turn that into the constant "FOO". I used to put a #. in front, but that's unnecessary.
2020-03-09T22:26:32Z elderK: jackdaniel: Perhaps I am mistaken. I could've been sure that I've seen you either there, or on the osdev forums. If not, my mistake.
2020-03-09T22:27:00Z elderK: Yet another question: Is there any merit in using #:thing vs. :thing vs thing in defpackage, say for exports?
2020-03-09T22:28:04Z jackdaniel: elderK: I'm not in these circles, so you probably think about someone else
2020-03-09T22:28:19Z aeth: elderK: It's probably a name collision.
2020-03-09T22:28:19Z jackdaniel: as of thing, #:thing would be best, because you don't intern any symbols in other packages
2020-03-09T22:28:59Z jackdaniel: if you do simply thing, then you intern in whatever package is in action, if you do :thing, you create a keyword
2020-03-09T22:29:14Z jackdaniel: n.b, same goes for package names
2020-03-09T22:29:28Z jackdaniel: (defpackage #:foobar …) (in-package #:foobar)
2020-03-09T22:29:57Z elderK: Thank you
2020-03-09T22:30:22Z jackdaniel:  sure
2020-03-09T22:32:38Z aeth: My style is (cl:defpackage #:foobar (:use #:cl) (:export #:foo #:bar))
2020-03-09T22:35:57Z aeth: At the moment, I do an extensive list of IMPORT-FROMs, but maybe I should use PLNs
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2020-03-09T22:40:04Z elderK: aeth: I've been using a lot of import-froms, too.
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2020-03-09T22:56:16Z z147: elderK, two of the style guides suggests 100 columns for CL https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml https://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/
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2020-03-09T23:02:29Z aeth: I use 100 columns as a "soft limit", as in if you have to rewrite your code just to meet line limit rules, you're probably going to mess things up
2020-03-09T23:03:19Z jackdaniel: I'm using 80 characters, because on 1080p lapop it makes two columns full screen, and on 4k monitors it makes four columns with a font which is good for me
2020-03-09T23:04:58Z jackdaniel: and indeed, where it is due, the "limit" is broken
2020-03-09T23:05:09Z aeth: For my font size, screen, configuration, etc., my limit to fit in a column with a 4-way split is 92.
2020-03-09T23:05:33Z aeth: *92 characters
2020-03-09T23:06:10Z aeth: If people are utilizing their screens to the fullest, they probably are somewhere between 80 and 120 characters for a file, so the limits are absolutely still relevant today.
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2020-03-09T23:07:11Z aeth: 72-80 is pretty hard because of the long names that idiomatic Lisp has
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2020-03-09T23:10:57Z z147: Oh if more were idiomatic, sure makes reading easier.
2020-03-09T23:13:32Z aeth: (let ((|The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself.| "The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself.")) |The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself.|) => "The most descriptive variable name is the variable itself."
2020-03-09T23:13:56Z Odin-: There is such a thing as overkill.
2020-03-09T23:14:41Z Odin-: Also, isn't the pretty printer basically a response to needing to fit Lisp code into relatively narrow outputs?
2020-03-09T23:14:59Z jackdaniel: (let ((|There is such a thing as overkill| t)) (values |There is such a thing as overkill| :goodnight);)
2020-03-09T23:15:44Z Odin-: The existence of miser mode rather suggests that to me.
2020-03-09T23:16:01Z aeth: (defun |Who needs docstrings? This function is used in the following manner...| (...) ...)
2020-03-09T23:16:50Z aeth: That builds in function versioning, too. If you change the function in a way that you need to change its documentation, it's probably best to rename it, anyway, so that old callers use the stable API. Bugfixes do not need to change the documentation.
2020-03-09T23:18:19Z Odin-: That would probably very quickly get about as comprehensible as assembly.
2020-03-09T23:18:40Z Odin-: At the very least about as verbose.
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2020-03-09T23:27:38Z aeth: Odin-: At the character level, yes, but not at the token level!
2020-03-09T23:27:53Z aeth: Odin-: But more problematically, with the level of documentation typical to a CL project, too many functions would be named ||
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2020-03-09T23:30:33Z aeth: Or, I suppose more accurately, most CL projects already follow my naming scheme: the function name is the documentation!
2020-03-09T23:34:34Z Odin-: That is true.
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2020-03-10T00:44:54Z HiRE: hello everyone
2020-03-10T00:45:02Z Oladon: 'lo HiRE
2020-03-10T00:46:05Z HiRE: I am havin some trouble with CLOS that is probably simple but I cant see what I've done wrong
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2020-03-10T00:46:14Z HiRE: https://hastebin.com/iyilaqozox.rb
2020-03-10T00:46:27Z HiRE: error:
2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: The generic function
2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION |stacks-and-queues|:PUSH-STACK (1)>
2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: takes 1 required argument; was asked to find a method with
2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE: specializers (STACK T)
2020-03-10T00:46:30Z HiRE:    [Condition of type SB-PCL::FIND-METHOD-LENGTH-MISMATCH]
2020-03-10T00:46:33Z HiRE: See also:
2020-03-10T00:46:35Z HiRE:   Common Lisp Hyperspec, FIND-METHOD [:function]
2020-03-10T00:46:44Z HiRE: I guess im missing how im screwing up matching by having `val`
2020-03-10T00:46:59Z HiRE: do I need defgeneric to define the parameter list formally?
2020-03-10T00:47:58Z Oladon: It would seem that you already ran a defgeneric, and defined the generic as taking just one argument.
2020-03-10T00:48:03Z no-defun-allowed: How are you calling PUSH-STACK?
2020-03-10T00:48:09Z no-defun-allowed: Or yeah, maybe that.
2020-03-10T00:48:38Z no-defun-allowed: You also defined an accessor DATA, so why do you use (SLOT-VALUE STACK 'DATA) instead of (DATA STACK)?
2020-03-10T00:48:55Z Josh_2: ^
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2020-03-10T00:50:55Z HiRE: because im a dummy
2020-03-10T00:51:00Z HiRE: lol
2020-03-10T00:51:04Z HiRE: I am not even calling it
2020-03-10T00:51:07Z HiRE: just loading it into slime
2020-03-10T00:51:11Z HiRE: let me restart my instance and try that
2020-03-10T00:51:16Z HiRE: perhaps I just have an old one lying around
2020-03-10T00:54:21Z Oladon: Any of you done anything with Server-Sent Events, by any chance? I'm trying to figure out what the "right" implementation is supposed to look like from the browser's perspective.
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2020-03-10T01:33:24Z HiRE: nope, however you may want to ping Xach
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2020-03-10T04:48:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-10T05:04:12Z HiRE: morning beach
2020-03-10T05:04:25Z HiRE: im discovering the wonders of clos
2020-03-10T05:04:36Z semz: good morning, for once a good morning that fits my timezone!
2020-03-10T05:04:50Z beach: HiRE: Great!
2020-03-10T05:04:52Z HiRE: I took a nap for way too long so on a technicality it also fits my life
2020-03-10T05:05:22Z HiRE: im motivated to bring computational geometry stuff to common lisp just to see how far I can push this thing
2020-03-10T05:05:34Z HiRE: the opengl bindings looked pretty performant so getting visuals up should be fun
2020-03-10T05:08:00Z aeth: opengl is performant, if you use a library like static-vectors instead of copying over to CFFI foreign C arrays
2020-03-10T05:08:10Z aeth: It's the difference between instant and minutes if you have enough geometry
2020-03-10T05:09:39Z HiRE: yes - for example I am doing research work in Python at the request of my advisor. The opengl bindings for python are absurdly slow.
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2020-03-10T05:10:16Z aeth: well, Python itself is absurdly slow
2020-03-10T05:11:07Z HiRE: That being said CL will be a hard pitch to him so I can't change that despite the faculty having a few symbolics nerds on staff.
2020-03-10T05:11:26Z HiRE: doesnt mean I can't use it myself though :)
2020-03-10T05:11:30Z aeth: you could write a Python-style syntactic reader macro and see how long it takes people to notice ;-)
2020-03-10T05:12:01Z HiRE: LOL reminds me of totally messing with the TA as an undergrad by abusing the crud out of C's preprocessor
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2020-03-10T05:18:14Z HiRE: Is there any reason for someone to ever use set or setq?
2020-03-10T05:18:20Z HiRE: it seems like setf works fine for everything
2020-03-10T05:18:53Z beach: Most people these days use only SETF.
2020-03-10T05:19:41Z HiRE: oh so set and setq are sort of antiquated then?
2020-03-10T05:20:29Z beach: Pretty much.
2020-03-10T05:20:42Z HiRE: I'd imagine setf is just another macro that uses those
2020-03-10T05:21:39Z no-defun-allowed: (set symbol expression) may as well be shorthand for (setf (symbol-value symbol) expression), if I'm not mistaken.
2020-03-10T05:22:16Z beach: Did you mean SETQ?
2020-03-10T05:23:06Z beach: And yes, if SYMBOL is a symbol macro, then it is as if SETF had been used instead.
2020-03-10T05:23:35Z beach: Hmm.
2020-03-10T05:23:40Z beach: clhs setq
2020-03-10T05:23:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm
2020-03-10T05:24:01Z beach: Apparently, that is true only if the symbol macro was made by SYMBOL-MACROLET.
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2020-03-10T05:24:54Z beach: So not by DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO.
2020-03-10T05:24:54Z HiRE: interesting
2020-03-10T05:24:59Z ebrasca: Good morning!
2020-03-10T05:25:12Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2020-03-10T05:25:36Z HiRE: howdy
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2020-03-10T05:33:08Z equwal: Can I use usocket for a file TCP socket rather than host:port?
2020-03-10T05:34:37Z no-defun-allowed: I haven't seen any functions in usocket you can use to create a file socket (and I don't think those obey TCP), but the rest of the operations should work on such a socket if you create one using implementation-specific functions.
2020-03-10T05:35:08Z equwal: I'm trying to use it for gpg-agent pinentry at ~/.gnupg/S.gpg-agent rather than this line of code https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/util/pinentry/pinentry.lisp#L14
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2020-03-10T05:35:42Z equwal: The gpg-agent already makes the socket by default, I just need to connect to it and use it properly.
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2020-03-10T05:38:43Z equwal: To be fair I'm a bit confused about that. Essentially I think I can use a file socket to remove the need for netcat and usocket as dependencies in that project.
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2020-03-10T08:02:05Z phoe: equwal: you mean a Unix socket, right?
2020-03-10T08:02:21Z phoe: I don't think usocket can do that. AFAIK it's limited to UDP and TCP sockets.
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2020-03-10T08:35:23Z pjb: equwal: the underlying implementation specific socket API usually allow unix sockets, so you could patch usocket to allow it too, or use your implementation specific API to create the usocket, and then use usocket to use it.
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2020-03-10T14:07:14Z pfdietz: Regret for missing ELS this year is the regret for the reason for missing it.
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2020-03-10T14:15:25Z pjb: pfdietz: what about a teleconference?
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2020-03-10T14:19:23Z Bike: they're already talking about that.
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2020-03-10T14:29:12Z Shinmera: I was already thinking of a streaming setup in case the conference does happen
2020-03-10T14:29:44Z Shinmera: But I'd have to talk that over with Didier, and I have to talk to the venue secretary first anyhow to see what they intend on doing about this mess.
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2020-03-10T14:30:45Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Do you recomend to do this year to ELS?
2020-03-10T14:31:05Z Shinmera: I'm sorry, I don't understand your question
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2020-03-10T14:31:52Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Do you recomend going this year to ELS?
2020-03-10T14:32:34Z Shinmera: I'm not frantic about the virus, so I do recommend going anyway.
2020-03-10T14:32:55Z Shinmera: However, powers outside my control may decide to force our hands and cancel the conference (travel bans etc.)
2020-03-10T14:33:47Z Shinmera: If that happens you will get a refund for the conference at least. Not sure what hotels or travel agencies would do.
2020-03-10T14:33:51Z pfdietz: Teleconference I would actually do.
2020-03-10T14:35:10Z pfdietz: Shinmera:  CDC is now recommending anyone my age avoid long distance air travel.
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2020-03-10T14:39:45Z _death: here, everyone getting back from abroad has to quarantine self at home for 14 days
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2020-03-10T14:40:20Z Shinmera: One thing that's troubling is that the situation could change quite drastically between now and the conference date.
2020-03-10T14:40:27Z Shinmera: Both for better or worse.
2020-03-10T14:40:37Z Shinmera: It's really hard to say what the right call is.
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2020-03-10T14:40:50Z pjb: Shinmera: there are estimations of the evolution, you could guess what the situation will be.
2020-03-10T14:41:22Z _death: yes.. in each country it may be different.. for example, the containment approach leads to prolonged state of non-normality
2020-03-10T14:41:24Z Shinmera: That doesn't tell me anything really.
2020-03-10T14:43:31Z _death: air travel companies also suffer as a result and some may go out of business or radically change their business for the next few years
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2020-03-10T14:43:50Z pjb: Already, Italian people couldn't come to the conference anyways, so it would be good to make it a teleconference.
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2020-03-10T14:48:21Z pfdietz: Shinmera:  it's almost certainly going to become much worse.
2020-03-10T14:48:31Z jmercouris: I didn't realize this channel was #coronavirus
2020-03-10T14:48:42Z pfdietz: Well, it is as related to ELS.
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2020-03-10T14:49:02Z splittist: It depends where you are. In Italy it may well get better. Even by the second half of April.
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2020-03-10T14:49:49Z Shinmera: Sure, but it won't help to discuss it here now. Be patient for updates, we are working on figuring it out. For now people have to make up their own minds whether they want to come or not.
2020-03-10T14:50:19Z jmercouris: pfdietz: I'm just joking :-P
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2020-03-10T16:13:35Z ebrasca: Shinmera: Do you say no ELS this year?
2020-03-10T16:13:55Z beach: That is not what he is saying.
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2020-03-10T16:15:44Z ebrasca: But it is not sure like 100%.
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2020-03-10T16:16:23Z beach: Right, because we don't know what will happen between now and then.  They may forbid the meeting, or the travel.
2020-03-10T16:16:47Z ebrasca: beach: I am going to try to go this year.
2020-03-10T16:16:58Z beach: I saw that.  Sound good.
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2020-03-10T16:34:04Z jcowan: I know at least one technical conference that is allowing tele-attendance this year after years of resisting it, though nothing has been announced about conference fees so far.  The conference is organized by a consulting company, so although it is done for the benefit of the community, it has to at least break even.
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2020-03-10T17:24:47Z pfdietz: Is Paul Rodriguez ever on this channel?
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2020-03-10T18:27:29Z p_l: jcowan: I'm starting to ponder about software to do massive online conference kind of stuff
2020-03-10T18:27:39Z p_l: Maybe even a form of hallway track
2020-03-10T18:28:14Z jcowan: I think the issues are that the Internet-as-we-know-it simply isn't any good at handling multi-participant video streams by reason of its structure.
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2020-03-10T18:39:41Z dlowe: it would help if the world weren't divided into client internet and server internet.
2020-03-10T18:40:10Z dlowe: That's not what the internet was designed for, but that's how it turned out.
2020-03-10T18:40:45Z dlowe: Around 2000, people made the mind-blowing discovery that computers could connect... to each other!
2020-03-10T18:41:10Z dlowe: and then we mostly forgot about it
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2020-03-10T18:42:32Z phoe: while watching youtube
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2020-03-10T18:47:47Z pfdietz: Cat videos are srs bsns
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2020-03-10T19:10:19Z jackdaniel: they've been made forgotten. marketing p2p as pirate-to-pirate did its job. //sorry for offtopic
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2020-03-10T19:15:32Z pjb: dlowe: That's the fault of IPv4 and NAT.  With IPv6, peer-to-peer can make a come-back.
2020-03-10T19:16:05Z pjb: dlowe: but note that GSM operators have IPv4 networks and NAT for the smart phones…
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2020-03-10T19:17:27Z White_Flame: Tor is nice for true hash-based addressing across the internet, too
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2020-03-10T19:20:23Z jackdaniel: again, marketed as a criminal network ,)
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2020-03-10T19:35:55Z Posterdati: hi
2020-03-10T19:36:21Z Posterdati: is there anyone playing with google kickstart??
2020-03-10T19:40:21Z p_l: dlowe: throughout 1990s it was known as well
2020-03-10T19:42:10Z dlowe: 1990s very few people had always-on connections.
2020-03-10T19:42:55Z p_l: dlowe: significant portion of the internet till pretty late had, due to exclusivity of internet
2020-03-10T19:43:11Z p_l: So lots of R&D on mbone
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2020-03-10T22:10:16Z random-nick: is a standard conforming compiler allowed to inline functions from the same file during file compilation?
2020-03-10T22:11:02Z no-defun-allowed: I wouldn't think so, without a declaration.
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2020-03-10T22:12:12Z random-nick: hmm, found it in CLHS
2020-03-10T22:12:31Z random-nick: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2020-03-10T22:12:48Z random-nick: I'm guessing this is in the standard and not a CLHS addition
2020-03-10T22:13:12Z random-nick: it's the fifth bullet point
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2020-03-10T22:30:57Z asarch: (expt 64 1/2)
2020-03-10T22:31:34Z jackdaniel: 3
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2020-03-10T22:33:21Z asarch: Shouldn't be 8?
2020-03-10T22:33:46Z jackdaniel: I'm sure 8 is a closer answer than 3, but three has a nice tune to it
2020-03-10T22:33:59Z asarch: Good point!
2020-03-10T22:34:06Z no-defun-allowed: To take (sqrt n), make your first guess 1, then compute 1/2*(guess + n/guess) and repeat
2020-03-10T22:34:31Z no-defun-allowed: My first guess thus is 32.5
2020-03-10T22:34:35Z no-defun-allowed: *is thus?
2020-03-10T22:35:01Z jackdaniel: 3 was my final guess
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2020-03-10T22:41:03Z Odin-: jackdaniel: I guess that means this is a video for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCcH4PBxbs
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2020-03-10T22:42:09Z jackdaniel: :)
2020-03-10T22:42:12Z jackdaniel: good night \o
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2020-03-11T04:06:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-11T04:37:02Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach
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2020-03-11T04:40:45Z matzy_: would anyone be willing to look at this (super-short) lisp program and tell me what I'm doing wrong?  My only issue is the "/store_page_view" route
2020-03-11T04:40:55Z matzy_: https://pastebin.com/hkgSmu01
2020-03-11T04:41:27Z matzy_: can you not increate global vars inside router calls like that?
2020-03-11T04:42:21Z beach: Are you sure it is not *content-type* rather than content-type*?
2020-03-11T04:44:59Z beach: Also (setq *page-views* (+ *page-views* 1)) is better expressed as (incf *page-views*), so I guess there is more than one issue.
2020-03-11T04:48:37Z beach: Though perhaps you should say more about what indications you have that you are doing something wrong.
2020-03-11T04:50:11Z beach: I guess I don't know what "increate" means.
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2020-03-11T04:53:53Z matzy_: sorry, meant to say increase.  i've started learning hunchentoot and wanted to write a simple route that returns to the user how many times they've hit that particular route
2020-03-11T04:56:19Z Nilby: I'm sorry if this is a FAQ, but how can I compile an ASDF system with optimization declarations without permanently changing the global environment or altering the .asd ? Do I have to make a temporary around-compile method or something?
2020-03-11T04:56:19Z minion: Nilby, memo from pjb: read-intern is not enough, you also want to do something with non-symbol tokens. Also, intern comes a little late: we've already split a package name and a symbol name!  You want to parse the symbol token earlier.  See: readtable-parse-token in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp
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2020-03-11T04:58:10Z beach: matzy_: And what is not working about it?
2020-03-11T04:59:09Z matzy_:  well actually since i used your incf i was able to load the page without any server errors, but it's also not printing `(format t "~d" *page-views*)`
2020-03-11T04:59:50Z beach: matzy_: You need to tell us what you expected, and what you observed instead.  Otherwise, it is very hard to figure out what the problem might be.
2020-03-11T05:00:08Z beach: matzy_: I don't suppose you want us to execute your code and look for ourselves.
2020-03-11T05:01:04Z beach: matzy_: The stream might be buffered.  Perhaps you need to use FINISH-OUTPUT.
2020-03-11T05:01:10Z beach: clhs finish-output
2020-03-11T05:01:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2020-03-11T05:01:46Z beach: matzy_: Using INCF rather than what you had should not make a difference.
2020-03-11T05:02:23Z matzy_: well i made a global variable *page-views* and set it to 0, then created a route ("store_page_view") that ideally would increment *page-views* each time that route was hit.  I kept getting 500 errors until i switched `(setq *page-views* (+ *page-views* 1))` for `(incf *page-views*)` as beach suggested, and now I receive no more server errors but
2020-03-11T05:02:24Z matzy_: don't get the `(format t "~d" *page-views*)` which is supposed to be the last part of the route
2020-03-11T05:03:38Z beach: matzy_: I give up.  You still haven't told us what the errors are, and it seems unlikely you are going to.  I'll leave you in the capable hands of other #lisp participants.
2020-03-11T05:03:39Z matzy_: hopefully that explains that i was trying to get at
2020-03-11T05:04:39Z matzy_: well ever since switching to incf i don't get 500 errors anymore, i just dont see that final (format t *page-views*) printed on the screen.  that's the only remaining issue
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2020-03-11T05:05:57Z matzy_: sorry if that's not enough, i thought writing such a route would be fairly simple for learning
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2020-03-11T05:10:08Z matzy_: and once i switched to incf i stopped encountering any more errors, besides one network error: "The character encoding of the plain text document was not declared. The document will render with garbled text in some browser configurations if the document contains characters from outside the US-ASCII range. The character encoding of the file needs to
2020-03-11T05:10:09Z matzy_: be declared in the transfer protocol or file needs to use a byte order mark as an encoding signature. store_page_view"
2020-03-11T05:11:34Z matzy_: but before it was all 500 errors, and i dont see why my previous method didnt work.  i've done some reading on incf since you mentioned it, and while i kinda get it, i dont know why i went from a 500 error to no breaking errors
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2020-03-11T05:14:24Z matzy_: it's ok though, i'll keep reading through PCL and should be able to figure it out between that and the hunchentoot docs
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2020-03-11T06:26:52Z beach: We should establish some guidelines to authors of ELS paper submissions.  It seems I keep repeating the same remarks for every paper I am refereeing.
2020-03-11T06:32:19Z aeth: What remarks do you repeat?
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2020-03-11T06:36:53Z beach: People often write descriptive abstracts, but informative abstracts are more appropriate for this kind of work.
2020-03-11T06:37:25Z beach: People use demonstrative pronouns without a following noun phrase, making it ambiguous what is referred to.
2020-03-11T06:37:57Z beach: People use genitive 's or s' with non-proper nouns which makes it harder to see the relevant word.
2020-03-11T06:38:38Z beach: People have a tendency to include dangling participles, which annoys some readers, and the result can be quite humorous (unintentionally, of course).
2020-03-11T06:38:53Z beach: Also misplaced modifiers can be quite hilarious.
2020-03-11T06:38:59Z HiRE: having gotten my first taste of writing conference papers
2020-03-11T06:39:05Z HiRE: writing papers is difficult
2020-03-11T06:39:17Z HiRE: it truly is an art in itself
2020-03-11T06:39:20Z beach: People use URLs in bibliographies, but the bibliography should contain documents that will never change.
2020-03-11T06:39:41Z HiRE: beach, how do you expect people to cite sources that dont have DOIs
2020-03-11T06:39:42Z HiRE: ?
2020-03-11T06:39:53Z beach: I use footnotes for those.
2020-03-11T06:39:59Z HiRE: thats fair
2020-03-11T06:40:06Z beach: They just don't belong in the bibliography.
2020-03-11T06:40:07Z HiRE: also a good idea.
2020-03-11T06:40:31Z HiRE: My advisor allowed me to include urls in my bibliography in my latest paper (there were some foreign papers I referenced that didnt have DOIs)
2020-03-11T06:40:43Z HiRE: but I should suggest to him we place them in footnotes
2020-03-11T06:40:44Z HiRE: that is a good idea.
2020-03-11T06:40:51Z beach: The ACM recommends that you then associate the URL with a date.
2020-03-11T06:41:24Z beach: aeth: Is that enough for starters?
2020-03-11T06:41:57Z HiRE: what a strange situation I've found myself in. Not the right channel but interesting none the less.
2020-03-11T06:42:03Z HiRE: I am connected to IRC talking to you.
2020-03-11T06:42:08Z HiRE: I cannot connect to my router
2020-03-11T06:42:13Z HiRE: via 192.168.1.1
2020-03-11T06:42:24Z HiRE: im a perplexed
2020-03-11T06:42:29Z HiRE: i am*
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2020-03-11T06:46:05Z aeth: Well, there are ways to get a "permanent" URL, like archive.org
2020-03-11T06:46:22Z beach: That's fine in the bibliography.
2020-03-11T06:46:34Z beach: What is not fine is a thing that can change over time.
2020-03-11T06:46:37Z beach: aeth: Is that enough for starters?
2020-03-11T06:46:41Z aeth: yes
2020-03-11T06:46:41Z pjb: Nilby: there is no conforming way to determine the current settings of optimization declarations.  There may be implementation specific ways.  Optimization declarations are basically global, but there's no way to set them dynamically.
2020-03-11T06:46:52Z aeth: beach: Can you elaborate on descriptive vs. informative abstracts?
2020-03-11T06:47:04Z pjb: Nilby: so you have to choose what are your default optimizations level, and you can set them temporarily and reset them once it's done.
2020-03-11T06:47:18Z beach: aeth: Google gives you a good summary.
2020-03-11T06:48:30Z aeth: ah, okay, it's a very standard thing apparently.
2020-03-11T06:48:51Z pjb: Nilby: so you can do: (defparameter *my-default-optimization* '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (compilation-speed 3)))  (proclaim *my-default-optimization*)  (unwind-protect (progn (proclaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 0) (space 3) (speed 3) (compilation-speed 0))) (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op :your-system)) (proclaim *my-default-optimization*))
2020-03-11T06:49:20Z beach: aeth: Yes, everything I mentioned is standard.  Those are elementary rules of scientific and technical writing.
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2020-03-11T06:50:28Z beach: Here is an example of a misplaced modifier (heard on French TV the other day): "Four months pregnant, the fire fighters drover her to the hospital"
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2020-03-11T06:51:42Z beach: Here is an example of a dangling participle: "Compiling the source code, the file is translated from text to binary"
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2020-03-11T06:54:08Z Nilby: pjb: Thank you for answering. That's what I thought. It doesn't bode well for making a nice compile command. Yet, there must be some way.. since it may be unportable, but proclaim seems to be enclosed in a with-compilation-unit?
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2020-03-11T06:57:00Z pjb: Nilby: The specification of with-compilation-unit  doesn't mention proclaim or declaim, and proclaim and declaim don't mention compilation-units.
2020-03-11T06:57:28Z pjb: Nilby: AFAICS, they are two entirely orthogonal concepts. (Agreed, they probably should have not been).
2020-03-11T06:58:27Z pjb: Nilby: also, note that while with-compilation-unit has an implicit PROGN, adding a LOCALLY wouldn't help, since this would work only for lexical declarations, but you want dynamic declarations of optimization…
2020-03-11T06:58:56Z pjb: Nilby: We'd need a TEMPORARILY operator for dynamic declarations…
2020-03-11T06:59:26Z Nilby: I first tried LOCALLY, and was a bit dismayed when it didn't work,
2020-03-11T06:59:38Z Nilby: But SBCL has this :policy option to with-compilation-unit
2020-03-11T07:00:19Z Nilby: which basiclly does what I want
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2020-03-11T07:14:02Z Nilby: pjb: Ah ha! it's portably non-portable! see the hack that is (uiop/lisp-build:get-optimization-settings)
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2020-03-11T07:15:11Z pjb: Oh good. I didn't think it was possible in so many implementations.
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2020-03-11T07:15:48Z Nilby: I thought that it seemed like ASDF did it somehow.
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2020-03-11T07:29:39Z Nilby: with-optimization-settings works nicely. Now I have a nice compile/load command. Thanks Faré and all the CL implementation hackers!
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2020-03-11T10:11:44Z Shinmera: https://portability.cl/
2020-03-11T10:11:48Z Shinmera: Now with a fancy domain
2020-03-11T10:13:50Z jeosol: Very nice Shinmera. The SBCL column lights up green and all 100%.
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2020-03-11T10:21:36Z z0d: nice TLD
2020-03-11T10:24:05Z Shinmera: Yeah, thanks, Chile
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2020-03-11T10:41:05Z chrpape: Nice, thx!
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2020-03-11T12:10:27Z pjb: Shinmera: shouldn't that be portabilidad.cl rather?
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2020-03-11T12:27:58Z phoe: CL = Chile Lisp
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2020-03-11T13:52:39Z oni-on-ion: Shinmera, awesome !
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2020-03-11T13:58:57Z pfdietz: I am wondering how much of the redness there requires changes to the CL implementations.  Most of it?
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2020-03-11T14:00:18Z oni-on-ion: i have to disable Dark Mode to see the colors
2020-03-11T14:00:40Z Bike: some of them could probably be defined but might need to use unexported interfaces
2020-03-11T14:00:58Z Bike: like dissect and maybe trivial-cltl2
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2020-03-11T14:01:56Z Bike: with-current-source-form, extensible-sequences, static-vectors, global-vars.... that's all stuff that an implementation is probably going to advertise if it implements, so it's probalby nto implemented in the reds
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2020-03-11T14:08:46Z Shinmera: pfdietz: As far as I know a lot is on both sides. A lot of implementation features are also there, but not documented or 'officially supported' so the library doesn't have it included.
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2020-03-11T14:09:05Z Shinmera: The percentages are also all very approximate right now, as I lack the time to do a thorough audit of supported features.
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2020-03-11T14:11:36Z oni-on-ion: what is the *?
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2020-03-11T14:36:20Z phoe: mouseover above it and read the alt-text
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2020-03-11T14:38:39Z Xach: ahh. i looked at it on my phone.
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2020-03-11T14:42:09Z oni-on-ion: phoe, ah, thanks. (no mouse)
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2020-03-11T14:47:40Z matzy_: how does one install a quicklisp package for a specific project?  right now i'm just calling `(ql:quickload :my-package), but is that the proper way to do it?  or should it be handled like npm packages, where you install the package project-wide, and then just call it in the files where it's needed?
2020-03-11T14:50:34Z jmercouris: matzy_: do you have an ASDF file?
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2020-03-11T15:14:40Z matzy_82: jmercouris sorry for the late reply - no- i do not
2020-03-11T15:15:13Z matzy_82: i've been working through PCL, but quicklisp vs asdf still confuses me
2020-03-11T15:15:15Z jmercouris: matzy_82: the you will want to make one and specify your dependencies there
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2020-03-11T15:15:27Z jmercouris: matzy_82: let me give you a link to a very simple example
2020-03-11T15:15:31Z splittist: matzy_82: you should. QL uses ASDF.
2020-03-11T15:15:40Z jmercouris: matzy_82: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webengine
2020-03-11T15:16:00Z matzy_82: jmercouris that would be super helpful, thanks
2020-03-11T15:16:03Z jmercouris: matzy_82: you basically just list your lisp files, and how they depend on each other, and what other system dependencies there are
2020-03-11T15:16:04Z splittist: matzy_82: to be slightly meta, you could also use quickproject ( https://www.xach.com/lisp/quickproject/ )
2020-03-11T15:16:10Z jmercouris: oh yeah, that's another good idea
2020-03-11T15:16:27Z jmercouris: matzy_82: look at .asd files in other projects to get more ideas
2020-03-11T15:16:48Z jmercouris: matzy_82: then place your whole system in a place that quicklisp can find it, local projects is a good one, then $lisp, (ql:quickload :my-system)
2020-03-11T15:17:49Z matzy_82: so do you write your asdf file from scratch?
2020-03-11T15:18:35Z matzy_82: and if i use quickproject, what if I come across other dependencies I need that I didnt think of initially when doing the initial :depends-on?
2020-03-11T15:19:00Z jmercouris: matzy_82: usually, yes
2020-03-11T15:19:08Z jmercouris: matzy_82: you'll just add them
2020-03-11T15:19:12Z jmercouris: the format is meant to be human readable/editable
2020-03-11T15:19:12Z splittist: you just edit and add. Remember that when you ql:quickload something during development to also add that dependency to the asd
2020-03-11T15:20:03Z matzy_82: this is really helpful, thank you both
2020-03-11T15:20:28Z jmercouris: no problem, good luck
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2020-03-11T15:23:49Z matzy_: ugh i keep getting kicked off
2020-03-11T15:23:51Z matzy_: but in the cl-webengine project, how did you know what to put for all those constants?
2020-03-11T15:23:58Z jmercouris: which constants?
2020-03-11T15:24:09Z matzy_: (asdf:defsystem :cl-webengine  :description "An FFI binding to WebEngine in Qt."  :author "Atlas Engineer LLC"  :licence "BSD 3-Clause"  :version "0.0"  :serial t  :components ((:module "source"                :components                        ((:file "package")                         (:file "interface"))))  :depends-on (:cffi))
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2020-03-11T15:24:18Z matzy_: ugh sorry should've used pastebin
2020-03-11T15:24:20Z jmercouris: author can be anything, description can be anything
2020-03-11T15:24:27Z jmercouris: license can be anything, as can version
2020-03-11T15:24:36Z matzy_: oh wow ok
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2020-03-11T15:24:44Z jmercouris: serial is the simplest type of loading, the files will just be loaded in order
2020-03-11T15:24:47Z matzy_: so you can just fill in anything for those fields basically
2020-03-11T15:24:47Z jmercouris: I suggest that for a beginner
2020-03-11T15:24:53Z jmercouris: yes, you can
2020-03-11T15:25:00Z jmercouris: and then the :depends-on is just a list of dependencies
2020-03-11T15:25:11Z matzy_: that's kinda weird lol
2020-03-11T15:25:25Z matzy_: so what that dependency depends on?
2020-03-11T15:25:37Z jmercouris: it is saying that cl-webengine depends on :cffi
2020-03-11T15:25:43Z jmercouris: the order is irrelevant there
2020-03-11T15:26:02Z matzy_: why isnt cffi defined in your asdf file?
2020-03-11T15:26:16Z matzy_: its a package too, right?
2020-03-11T15:26:30Z jmercouris: CFFI is a system
2020-03-11T15:26:37Z jmercouris: it is not mine, it is someone elses
2020-03-11T15:26:40Z jmercouris: it is a dependency
2020-03-11T15:26:50Z jmercouris: I could have put :alexandria there, or whatever
2020-03-11T15:26:53Z jmercouris: and it would have loaded it
2020-03-11T15:27:46Z matzy_: interesting.  ok, just making sure, so cl-webengine isnt something you wrote yourself, it's something one could fine on quicklisp
2020-03-11T15:27:57Z matzy_: *find
2020-03-11T15:28:02Z jmercouris: yes it is
2020-03-11T15:28:05Z jmercouris: I wrote cl-webengine
2020-03-11T15:28:13Z matzy_: ohhh ol
2020-03-11T15:28:18Z matzy_: *ok
2020-03-11T15:28:19Z jmercouris: quicklisp can install your OWN projects as well as REMOTE projects
2020-03-11T15:28:20Z jmercouris: from a repository
2020-03-11T15:28:26Z jmercouris: "install" is a nebulous term here
2020-03-11T15:28:31Z matzy_: got it
2020-03-11T15:28:33Z jmercouris: it doesn't really make much sense, but I am trying to use normal words
2020-03-11T15:29:06Z matzy_: no this is the best explanation i've gotten so far
2020-03-11T15:29:13Z matzy_: i really appreciate your time
2020-03-11T15:29:17Z jmercouris: no worries
2020-03-11T15:29:26Z jmercouris: feel free to message me privately if you wish to avoid flooding the channel
2020-03-11T15:29:55Z matzy_: so if i want to use some package on quicklisp, i need to put it in the asdf file, and then quickload it when i need it in  a file
2020-03-11T15:30:09Z jmercouris: yes, i believe so
2020-03-11T15:30:17Z jmercouris: so let's say you want to use alexandria
2020-03-11T15:30:29Z jmercouris: you would put it into your asd file, and then quickload your project, and it would load alexandria for you
2020-03-11T15:30:56Z phoe: matzy_: there's two different things - packages, and systems
2020-03-11T15:31:01Z phoe: they're kinda orthogonal to each other
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2020-03-11T15:31:20Z jmercouris: a system is just a collection of lisp files, think of it that way
2020-03-11T15:31:22Z phoe: a package is a collection of Lisp symbols that exposes some functionality
2020-03-11T15:31:34Z phoe: a system is a collection of Lisp files that are loaded together to implement some functionality
2020-03-11T15:31:54Z phoe: a package can be modified by multiple systems, a system can have multiple packages
2020-03-11T15:31:54Z matzy_: so is huchentoot a system or package?
2020-03-11T15:31:58Z phoe: both!
2020-03-11T15:32:00Z jmercouris: thats where the confusion is
2020-03-11T15:32:01Z phoe: that's a part of the confusion
2020-03-11T15:32:03Z jmercouris: often they use the same name
2020-03-11T15:32:08Z splittist: matzy_: One approach. 1. Have an idea and give it a cool name. 2. Create a new directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ called 'coolname' 2. Add a coolname.asd, package.lisp, README.md and coolname.lisp to that directory 3. Do whatever gittery you like on the coolname directory. 4. ql:quickload "coolname" 5. profit.
2020-03-11T15:32:11Z jmercouris: they could have named their system potato, and made a package carrot
2020-03-11T15:32:15Z phoe: there is a system named "hunchentoot" that contains the definition for the package "hunchentoot"
2020-03-11T15:32:28Z jmercouris: but they usually name the project and system potato, as well as the package
2020-03-11T15:32:34Z phoe: if you (ql:quickload :hunchentoot), the system is loaded; in effect, a package is created and populated with all the code stuffs of hunchentoot
2020-03-11T15:32:41Z jmercouris: so you would (ql:quickload :potato) and then (potato:grow)
2020-03-11T15:32:55Z jmercouris: but it could just as well be (ql:quickload :potato) and then (carrot:grow)
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2020-03-11T15:33:03Z matzy_: this is clearing up so many of my questions
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2020-03-11T15:33:09Z matzy_: you guys are freaking awesome
2020-03-11T15:33:19Z matzy_: i cant thank you enough for taking the time to explain all this
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2020-03-11T15:34:08Z matzy_: my first try at a common lisp project is to build a simple api that handles GET and POSTs and sends back JSON to a react front-end
2020-03-11T15:34:10Z jmercouris: maybe you write a tutorial for newcomers :-)
2020-03-11T15:34:29Z phoe: matzy_: that's doable, yes
2020-03-11T15:34:32Z matzy_: if i ever get this 100% down i honestly will
2020-03-11T15:34:39Z phoe: I've never done much web stuff in Lisp, but there's people who do that
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2020-03-11T15:34:48Z phoe: matzy_: /join #lispweb
2020-03-11T15:34:49Z jmercouris: I've done a lot of web stuff in Lisp
2020-03-11T15:34:57Z phoe: also /join #clschool if you haven't done that yet
2020-03-11T15:35:06Z jmercouris: I suggest simply loading caveman2, https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman
2020-03-11T15:35:15Z jmercouris: the README is more than enough to get you started
2020-03-11T15:35:35Z matzy_: just joined both groups, thanks for the recommemdatinso
2020-03-11T15:36:42Z matzy_: i have a meeting to run to, but that you all for explaining this to me.  i'm literally going to save our entire conversation so i read through it several times and hopefully grok it sooner or later
2020-03-11T15:36:50Z matzy_: *thank you all
2020-03-11T15:37:31Z phoe: matzy_: no need to
2020-03-11T15:37:34Z phoe: this channel is logged
2020-03-11T15:37:48Z phoe: see the topic for the channel logs if you want to read stuff later
2020-03-11T15:39:43Z matzy_: can you do that through the webchat.freenode.net site?
2020-03-11T15:40:25Z jmercouris: see the topic
2020-03-11T15:40:34Z jmercouris: you can view it here: https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp
2020-03-11T15:41:17Z matzy_: you guys are amazing
2020-03-11T15:41:26Z matzy_: thank you again so much
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2020-03-11T15:42:32Z jmercouris: no problem
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2020-03-11T15:59:05Z pfdietz: asd files can be written from scratch, or you can use package-inferred-system, which automates a lot of the dependencies.   Not everyone likes the restrictions this places on the system, though.
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2020-03-11T15:59:35Z phoe: or you can (ql:quickload :quickproject) for a simple project skeleton
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2020-03-11T16:27:19Z asarch: (if t t (not t))
2020-03-11T16:28:06Z beach: ?
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2020-03-11T16:30:17Z phoe: ;=> t
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2020-03-11T20:27:40Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: you there?
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2020-03-11T20:54:09Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2020-03-11T20:58:04Z Fade: o/
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2020-03-11T21:01:39Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Have you any wisdom about dividing CL jobs on Travis with shared builds? I have a test suite for the github.com://shop-planner/shop3 system that runs very long, so I smashed it into a bunch of sub jobs to avoid time-outs.  But it is stupid and wasteful of me to repeat the builds over and over, just so I can do a lot of different tests.
2020-03-11T21:03:25Z fe[nl]ix: switch to a paying plan and you get longer timeouts
2020-03-11T21:03:31Z fe[nl]ix: fancier solutions are not worth the time
2020-03-11T21:03:54Z fe[nl]ix: the default timeout is barely sufficient for testing small libraries
2020-03-11T21:04:10Z fe[nl]ix: which I guess is indented
2020-03-11T21:04:25Z rpg: oh, thanks! I was just wondering if there was any way to have multiple elements of the matrix share a single built lisp image.
2020-03-11T21:05:57Z fe[nl]ix: I think they have some way to setup an artifact cache
2020-03-11T21:06:43Z rpg: Yes, there is a cache, but they don't explain its function well.  Really, I hate to complain about a group that's doing so much for the community, but the Travis docs are really terrible.
2020-03-11T21:07:45Z fe[nl]ix: https://github.com/google/syzkaller/commit/0a8d1a965a65f2d6cc93d1180443f5ad658919b1
2020-03-11T21:08:30Z fe[nl]ix: try adding ~/.cache/common-lisp there and see what happens
2020-03-11T21:09:06Z rpg: Thanks!  I'll do that!
2020-03-11T21:09:21Z rpg: I'll report back if it works.
2020-03-11T21:09:45Z rpg: seems like moving the build into `before_install` might also be important.
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2020-03-11T21:15:00Z rpg: @fe[nl]ix: Actually, it looks like the cache is intended to help Travis between runs, instead of within a single one, judging from https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/caching/
2020-03-11T21:16:21Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2020-03-11T21:16:24Z rpg: That's probably right, because a cache could get into trouble -- ASDF is not concurrency-safe.
2020-03-11T21:16:27Z fe[nl]ix: I think I misunderstood you
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2020-03-11T21:16:43Z fe[nl]ix: you want to parallelize the test suite, then ?
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2020-03-11T21:17:10Z rpg: What I have is about 12 jobs for each of two configurations (SBCL and CCL).  So it would be nice to only build the two configurations once.
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2020-03-11T21:18:09Z fe[nl]ix: maybe someone here knows better
2020-03-11T21:18:14Z fe[nl]ix: I've never tried that
2020-03-11T21:19:09Z rpg: Thanks for the help, though -- I was able to use your CIM setup and get my tests running successfully. Now I'm just trying to make things a little better.
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2020-03-11T21:41:44Z rpg: Going now, but thanks again -- that setup information was super helpful!
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2020-03-11T21:49:48Z aeth: Okay, so if my connection drops when Quicklisp is updating, it freezes the download. And then if I cancel that, Quicklisp thinks that I'm on the latest dist and winds up in this broken in-between state.
2020-03-11T21:50:02Z aeth: This has had to have happened to someone before. How do you get Quicklisp to realize that it's not correct?
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2020-03-11T21:51:44Z Shinmera: It's not in a broken state.
2020-03-11T21:51:53Z Shinmera: It will download packages on demand
2020-03-11T21:52:19Z Shinmera: The only reason it downloads updates of installed packages when you do a dist update is because it's convenient.
2020-03-11T21:52:39Z aeth: It is in a broken state. Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading ‘/home/michael/.emacs’: File is missing: Cannot open load file, No such file or directory, slime-autoloads
2020-03-11T21:52:59Z aeth: And M-x slime no longer works
2020-03-11T21:53:17Z Shinmera: Open the repl not in slime, quickload the slime helper.
2020-03-11T21:53:33Z Shinmera: Slime breaking does not mean quicklisp is broken.
2020-03-11T21:54:37Z aeth: okay, you're right, it's just the slime helper that broke
2020-03-11T21:55:04Z housel: top
2020-03-11T21:55:11Z housel: sorry, wrong window
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2020-03-12T00:13:22Z aeth: Notably missing from https://portability.cl/ is anything Unicode-related, exposing sb-unicode style functionality portably
2020-03-12T00:13:50Z aeth: Also, I think anything timer related? Unless it's under something else.
2020-03-12T00:14:43Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: for unicode there's Babel
2020-03-12T00:14:53Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: different
2020-03-12T00:15:41Z Bike: yeah, does babel do normalization and stuff?
2020-03-12T00:15:49Z aeth: sb-unicode has stuff like math-p, whitespace-p, normalized-p, etc.
2020-03-12T00:15:57Z aeth: Stuff you'd want in e.g. a regex engine
2020-03-12T00:16:19Z aeth: Also, on characters, assuming characters are unicode. Isn't Babel on bytes?
2020-03-12T00:16:19Z Bike: shinmera of course only listed stuff that has a portability library of some kind
2020-03-12T00:17:25Z Bike: i think babel works independent of the implementation's representation of strings... don't quote me on that tho
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2020-03-12T00:19:24Z Bike: hm, nope
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2020-03-12T04:55:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-12T06:58:22Z Shinmera: aeth: it's open source, feel free to pr if you think stuff is missing that should be on there.
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2020-03-12T07:20:33Z pjb:  /whoami
2020-03-12T07:21:09Z no-defun-allowed: pjb: Whoooooooooooo are you?
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2020-03-12T07:52:34Z splittist: Who, who, who, who?
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2020-03-12T12:34:06Z paule32: hello
2020-03-12T12:34:21Z Caractacus: Hi there
2020-03-12T12:34:36Z paule32: i have a structure, how can i access it via "prompted input from user" ?
2020-03-12T12:34:42Z paule32: http://dpaste.com/0F9277D
2020-03-12T12:35:11Z jmercouris: access a value from the struct?
2020-03-12T12:35:23Z paule32: yes
2020-03-12T12:35:30Z jmercouris: (sentence-der struct)
2020-03-12T12:35:58Z paule32: thx, try out ...
2020-03-12T12:37:53Z paule32: ok, thx, works
2020-03-12T12:38:09Z jmercouris: no problem
2020-03-12T12:38:13Z Caractacus: Do people here participate in the lisp game jam or is that a different channel?
2020-03-12T12:38:21Z jackdaniel: Caractacus: try #lispgames
2020-03-12T12:38:29Z Caractacus: fab thanks :)
2020-03-12T12:38:29Z jackdaniel: there is overlap between members of both channels
2020-03-12T12:38:41Z jackdaniel: but lispgames is not limited to common lisp
2020-03-12T12:39:00Z Caractacus: Clojure and Scheme too I guess?
2020-03-12T12:39:07Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-03-12T12:39:38Z Caractacus: THanks :)
2020-03-12T12:39:44Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-03-12T12:45:10Z shka_: hello!
2020-03-12T12:45:27Z shka_: i am having small, but annoying problem with slime REPL
2020-03-12T12:46:18Z shka_: it scroll to much after evaluating any expression, hiding both the input and the printed result
2020-03-12T12:46:28Z shka_: i would like to fix this, but i don't know how
2020-03-12T12:47:00Z jmercouris: I would start by first clearing your lisp init file and running in emacs -q, see if problem still exists
2020-03-12T12:47:08Z jmercouris: then introduce emacs config, then lisp config, and see which one causes issues
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2020-03-12T12:48:01Z shka_: hmmm, ok, i hoped for immediate solution, i will try to debug it later, after work
2020-03-12T12:48:14Z shka_: thanks for your suggestion though
2020-03-12T12:48:37Z jackdaniel: shka_: that's too few details to know what's going on with your emacs
2020-03-12T12:48:58Z shka_: yes, you are right i guess…
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2020-03-12T12:49:38Z jmercouris: I'm sorry, i've never seen it before or I would have said how so
2020-03-12T12:49:48Z shka_: i can't dive into this at the moment, but i appreciate your response
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2020-03-12T13:26:44Z mmontone: hello!
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2020-03-12T13:27:28Z Bike: sup.
2020-03-12T13:27:29Z mmontone: is there any way of compiling an ASDF system from SLIME, and get a buffer with all clickable WARNINGS, and STYLE-WARNINGS ?
2020-03-12T13:27:36Z mmontone: so I can navigate them and fix them?
2020-03-12T13:28:26Z mmontone: I know I can get that for a single file with M-x slime-compile-file
2020-03-12T13:28:33Z mmontone: but I want that for a whole ASDF system
2020-03-12T13:28:51Z scymtym: after M-x slime-load-system (or M-x  slime-reload-system if the system has already been compiled) the buffer *slime-compilation* should contain exactly that
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2020-03-12T13:29:04Z mmontone: oh. I'll look.. thanks
2020-03-12T13:29:09Z jackdaniel: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/ASDF.html
2020-03-12T13:29:18Z scymtym: (in addition to highlighting in open buffers)
2020-03-12T13:29:30Z Bike: huh, that's good to know
2020-03-12T13:29:38Z Shinmera: Man that'll come in handy
2020-03-12T13:29:48Z mmontone: scymtym you are right. thanks!
2020-03-12T13:29:49Z jackdaniel throws confetti
2020-03-12T13:30:24Z mmontone: how didn't I know about that ...
2020-03-12T13:33:22Z phoe: TIL
2020-03-12T13:33:50Z jackdaniel throws more confetti
2020-03-12T13:33:50Z phoe: that's amazing stuff and I seriously wonder why slime doesn't hook that straight into QL:QUICKLOAD and/or ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM
2020-03-12T13:34:23Z phoe: that would come in handy
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2020-03-12T13:34:48Z jackdaniel: what do you mean by "hook into"?
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2020-03-12T14:07:41Z phoe: I imagine it would be useful for me to have the compilation buffer pop up when I issue a (ql:quickload :foo) and any warnings are found
2020-03-12T14:09:01Z Bike: how would you accomplish that? some kind of advice around the function?
2020-03-12T14:09:13Z Bike: compile-file is the same way, you know, it doesn't pop open a buffer
2020-03-12T14:09:58Z Shinmera: swank could install a method somewhere in ASDF.
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2020-03-12T14:10:45Z Bike: and probably you'd want to not pop up a buffer if some code loaded a system
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2020-03-12T14:11:49Z jmercouris: I think that would be very annoying
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2020-03-12T16:11:50Z splittist: Is there an easy way to tell what slime-fancy loads?
2020-03-12T16:12:39Z Bike: if you look at slime-fancy.el it's just the list of dependencies, no?
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2020-03-12T16:16:02Z Bike: Shinmera: Colleen doesn't seem to be logging #sbcl
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2020-03-12T16:22:20Z splittist: Bike: true. Thanks.
2020-03-12T16:22:37Z Shinmera: Bike: Fixed. Sorry about that.
2020-03-12T16:22:50Z Shinmera: Turns out making a stable IRC client is beyond my capabilities
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2020-03-12T16:29:53Z scymtym: Shinmera: don't worry. thanks for doing the logging for everyone
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2020-03-12T18:09:10Z asarch: How could I use C code in Common Lisp? ASDF?
2020-03-12T18:09:46Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/
2020-03-12T18:09:48Z jackdaniel: asarch: cffi
2020-03-12T18:09:55Z asarch: Thannk you!
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2020-03-12T18:10:21Z asarch: Thank you very much guys!
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2020-03-12T18:12:56Z asarch realizes now why the GTK+ 3.x port in Common Lisp is called: cl-CFFI-gtk
2020-03-12T18:13:11Z jackdaniel: w porę w czas
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2020-03-12T18:13:45Z asarch: D'oh!
2020-03-12T18:16:01Z oni-on-ion: ah? i tried cl-webkit2 the other day. cant remember the name of the gtk it pulled from ql =)
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2020-03-12T21:27:47Z whiteline: our financial newspaper has the headline "worst day since black monday 1987"
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2020-03-12T21:28:40Z whiteline: whoops, wrong channel
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2020-03-12T21:32:08Z isBEKaml: whiteline: :-) I was wondering why lispers would read financial newspapers, unless they work in wall street
2020-03-12T21:32:28Z isBEKaml: of course, that's not to say they don't
2020-03-12T21:33:48Z jfb4: lispers have probably gone through the most financial crises
2020-03-12T21:34:06Z jfb4: including 87
2020-03-12T21:39:34Z aeth: I don't think anyone can ignore Monday/Thursday, but it's more of a #lispcafe thing
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2020-03-13T00:46:22Z equwal: Is it possible to install the Clasp compiler on Gentoo?
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2020-03-13T00:58:43Z Bike: probably. you can ask #clasp for help
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2020-03-13T01:59:16Z equwal: Thanks Bike.
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2020-03-13T04:35:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-13T07:53:05Z splittist: good morning
2020-03-13T07:53:12Z beach: Hello splittist.
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2020-03-13T12:21:31Z oni-on-ion: good morning. has anyone played with this CL editor? https://github.com/cxxxr/lem
2020-03-13T12:22:05Z loke: oni-on-ion: I tried it.
2020-03-13T12:22:21Z loke: I wasn't a fan, but I can't remember what I disliked about it.
2020-03-13T12:24:51Z oni-on-ion: neat that it has web version as well. i am thinking that if you've also cant remember an especially good thing about it then possibly it is neutral
2020-03-13T12:25:36Z jmercouris: lem is OK, very opinionated
2020-03-13T12:26:39Z z147: oni-on-ion, very opinionated install as well
2020-03-13T12:27:03Z oni-on-ion: not enough variety of devs/designers sounds like. need a lot of eyes for making very public tool
2020-03-13T12:27:22Z jmercouris: it's not that you need a variety of devs/designers, Next is just Pierre and I basically
2020-03-13T12:27:23Z oni-on-ion: z147, roswell =|
2020-03-13T12:27:33Z jmercouris: but we designed it specifically with the intent of being as customizable as possible
2020-03-13T12:27:34Z z147: don't even start :)
2020-03-13T12:27:39Z jmercouris: which makes the code significantly more complex
2020-03-13T12:27:42Z oni-on-ion: jmercouris, but on the model of web browsers already?
2020-03-13T12:27:44Z loke: jmercouris: I tried to run Next some time ago, and I completely failed to build it.
2020-03-13T12:27:48Z loke: Is there a secret to it?
2020-03-13T12:27:50Z z147: well the more the merrier
2020-03-13T12:28:01Z jmercouris: loke: you should be able to build it now, we've removed requirements for d-bus eetc, are you on Linux or macOS?
2020-03-13T12:28:06Z loke: Linux
2020-03-13T12:28:18Z jmercouris: loke: give it a try, (asdf:make :next) is all you need to do now
2020-03-13T12:28:22Z loke: OK, I'll give it a try again
2020-03-13T12:28:58Z z147: jmercouris, next is great. And painless install
2020-03-13T12:29:01Z jmercouris: oni-on-ion: in some ways, yes, but not really
2020-03-13T12:29:10Z jmercouris: z147: I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic :-D
2020-03-13T12:29:19Z jmercouris: painless now compared to how it was before :-D sure
2020-03-13T12:29:19Z z147: Nope.
2020-03-13T12:29:54Z z147: Well, it was a breeze in the park compared to roswell or lem
2020-03-13T12:29:54Z jmercouris: Well, I'm glad it was a good process for you!
2020-03-13T12:30:07Z z147: Yeah, it feels like you care about the experience, so thanks
2020-03-13T12:30:17Z jmercouris: no problem :-)
2020-03-13T12:32:22Z loke: jmercouris: Hmm... "Component "prove-asdf" not found, required by NIL"
2020-03-13T12:32:42Z jmercouris: loke: strange, what happens if you first quickload that and then make?
2020-03-13T12:33:32Z jmercouris: prove should only be required when trying to run the tests
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2020-03-13T12:34:19Z Shinmera: If you have the defsystem-depends-on, it'll be required to load the system no matter what.
2020-03-13T12:35:09Z loke: jmercouris: I added the directory to *central-registry*
2020-03-13T12:35:22Z loke: Should i link it to QL's local-projects instead?
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2020-03-13T12:35:35Z jmercouris: I think it should be the same in either case
2020-03-13T12:35:54Z jmercouris: Shinmera: even if it is a *different* system being loaded?
2020-03-13T12:36:09Z jmercouris: we have a different defsystem for the tests
2020-03-13T12:36:20Z Shinmera: in order to parse the defsystem at all, asdf needs to load it.
2020-03-13T12:36:27Z Shinmera: that's what defsystem-depends-on means
2020-03-13T12:36:39Z jmercouris: and it will parse all defsystems in the asd?
2020-03-13T12:36:50Z Shinmera: yes
2020-03-13T12:37:25Z Shinmera: the defsystem-depends-on thing is one of the parts of ASDF I really loathe. I know why it's there but it's.. not a great solution to the problem in my opinion.
2020-03-13T12:37:42Z jmercouris: interesting, maybe we should have two asds or so
2020-03-13T12:37:42Z loke: OK, quickloading now
2020-03-13T12:38:13Z loke: jmercouris: What is it using sqlite for?
2020-03-13T12:38:24Z jmercouris: loke: only for migration of old history databases
2020-03-13T12:38:38Z jmercouris: the new history database and bookmarks are now SEXP on disk
2020-03-13T12:38:50Z jmercouris: so if you had an old version of Next it could automatically migrate your things
2020-03-13T12:39:19Z oni-on-ion: i see 'minilem' added to QL =)
2020-03-13T12:39:28Z loke: jmercouris: It wants the libwebkit. There are a few different ones in the fedora repsitories. Which one should I use?
2020-03-13T12:39:42Z loke: There is webkit2gtk3-devel
2020-03-13T12:39:43Z jmercouris: I'm not sure honestly, someone made an issue about it on Fedora
2020-03-13T12:39:49Z jmercouris: let me look
2020-03-13T12:40:15Z jmercouris: here it is:   sudo dnf install sbcl webkit2gtk3-devel glib-networking sqlite gsettings-desktop-schemas libfixposix-devel gstreamer1-devel gstreamer1-plugins-base xclip
2020-03-13T12:40:19Z jmercouris: those are the fedora dependencies
2020-03-13T12:40:19Z oni-on-ion: loke, i installed 4.0 yesterday, testing cl-webkit2 (debian)
2020-03-13T12:40:34Z jmercouris: and here is the pull request: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/next/pull/588
2020-03-13T12:41:31Z loke: OK, this starts to be familiar:
2020-03-13T12:41:39Z loke: READ error during COMPILE-FILE: Symbol "WEBKIT-NAVIGATION-POLICY-DECISION-GET-NAVIGATION-ACTION" not found in the CL-WEBKIT2 package.
2020-03-13T12:41:49Z jmercouris: you are not using the latest cl-webkit
2020-03-13T12:41:53Z jmercouris: it is not available on quicklisp yet
2020-03-13T12:41:56Z loke: I'm using the one from QL
2020-03-13T12:42:09Z jmercouris: that's correct
2020-03-13T12:42:12Z jmercouris: the latest ql dist does not have it yet
2020-03-13T12:42:13Z jmercouris: https://github.com/joachifm/cl-webkit
2020-03-13T12:42:21Z jmercouris: you need to just clone that and put it somewhere it can be found
2020-03-13T12:44:03Z loke: jmercouris: Thank you. It now builds.
2020-03-13T12:44:07Z jmercouris: yay :-)
2020-03-13T12:44:18Z loke: When I try to run it, it opens a window and then promptly crashes with this: #<Syscall "bind" signalled error ENOENT(2) "No such file or directory" FD=3>
2020-03-13T12:44:26Z jmercouris: Oh :-O
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2020-03-13T12:44:36Z jmercouris: never seen that before, maybe a permissions error
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2020-03-13T12:45:46Z loke: jmercouris: I restarted the Lisp runtime and the problem went way
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2020-03-13T12:45:49Z loke: away
2020-03-13T12:45:59Z jmercouris: ah, OK :-)
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2020-03-13T12:49:05Z loke: jmercouris: OK, it runs. That's nice :-)
2020-03-13T12:49:13Z loke: Now for the most important question: How do I install Ublock
2020-03-13T12:49:29Z jackdaniel: u block urself
2020-03-13T12:49:33Z oni-on-ion: =(
2020-03-13T12:49:34Z jackdaniel: ;-)
2020-03-13T12:49:59Z ebrasca: addblock is wip in next
2020-03-13T12:50:00Z jackdaniel: seriously though I don't know, just thought that it will make a nice joke ;p
2020-03-13T12:50:00Z jmercouris: loke: Ublock not installable
2020-03-13T12:50:04Z oni-on-ion: ublock and dark mode are required
2020-03-13T12:50:36Z jmercouris: we are thinking about adding the standard webextension support for something in the next 6 months or so
2020-03-13T12:50:57Z jmercouris: right now, I do hosts based blocking on my machine, works pretty well for 99%
2020-03-13T12:51:02Z jmercouris: only thing I don't use Next for is youtube
2020-03-13T12:52:37Z loke: jmercouris: Is there a plan to get ublock running? I really can't use a browser without it
2020-03-13T12:53:02Z jmercouris: yeah, like I said, we want to support generic webextension protocol in about 6 months or so, which would mean you could install something like ublock
2020-03-13T12:53:16Z jmercouris: I hope we are able to do it
2020-03-13T12:54:30Z oni-on-ion: i hope as well, that would be super. was not aware there is a webextension standard/protocol or how crazy the world is without it
2020-03-13T12:54:36Z jackdaniel: loke: or write CL extension which uses ublock rules. club-lock would be a feasible name,)
2020-03-13T12:55:11Z oni-on-ion: +1 that
2020-03-13T12:56:45Z oni-on-ion: z147, read comment about roswell install, feeling what you meant earlier now. ^_^
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2020-03-13T12:59:03Z oni-on-ion: Shinmera, oh what's this!? cool! =) https://kandria.com/
2020-03-13T12:59:56Z z147: oni-on-ion, yep. But the more different solutions are available, the better. Let a thousand flowers bloom etc etc.
2020-03-13T13:00:38Z Shinmera: It's what I hope will make me enough money at some point to buy me some soup to live off of.
2020-03-13T13:00:40Z jackdaniel: the tyranny of freedom
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2020-03-13T13:01:14Z oni-on-ion: z147, yeah =)
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2020-03-13T13:01:27Z oni-on-ion: Shinmera, awesome! =)
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2020-03-13T13:46:52Z shidima: I'm looking to do some webdevelopment with lisp, what framework is more or less the'standaard' atm?
2020-03-13T13:48:13Z shidima: I have played a bit with restas and hunchentoot
2020-03-13T13:48:24Z p_l: shidima: I don't think there's anything standard beyond what hunchentoot and clack offer
2020-03-13T13:51:57Z shidima: alright
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2020-03-13T13:56:37Z Shinmera: Frameworks are very opinionated, so there's a bunch of them, each with their own flavour.
2020-03-13T13:57:10Z Shinmera: I like Radiance, and I'm very happy to provide help with it.
2020-03-13T13:57:37Z oni-on-ion: weblocks ?
2020-03-13T14:01:18Z p_l: weblocks was competing at one point for the "Rails of CL" title, but it never went that far. And it had all the annoying issues of continuation-based frameworks
2020-03-13T14:01:41Z oni-on-ion: ah
2020-03-13T14:02:04Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly the currently maintained weblocks no longer uses continuations.
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2020-03-13T14:03:36Z p_l: see how things change :)
2020-03-13T14:04:04Z shidima: yeah, thats why I though about asking here. :)
2020-03-13T14:04:33Z p_l: just in case for people not acquaintainted with the problems - while continuations are very, very nice approach, they are a tiny bit problematic in typical web deployment where you have N "shards" serving the web app
2020-03-13T14:04:57Z shidima: Loading up radiance in sly right now
2020-03-13T14:05:03Z shidima: Giving it a spin
2020-03-13T14:05:04Z p_l: as you pretty much need to route connections for given session always to the same instance
2020-03-13T14:05:21Z Shinmera: shidima: Fingers crossed! :)
2020-03-13T14:06:45Z ebrasca: p_l: Why it is bad?
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2020-03-13T14:08:33Z p_l: ebrasca: because you need to hit the shard that contains your continuation :)
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2020-03-13T14:09:21Z p_l: it's non-trivial to share continuations between shards
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2020-03-13T14:21:00Z shidima: I'm following the tutorial and i get a warning about:
2020-03-13T14:21:02Z shidima: The system plaster has no version specified, so Radiance does not know how to migrate it to the latest point.
2020-03-13T14:21:03Z shidima:  
2020-03-13T14:21:37Z Xach: shidima: who wrote the tutorial?
2020-03-13T14:21:56Z shidima: I'm guessing Shinmera :)
2020-03-13T14:22:28Z Shinmera: in the asd file you made, just put in a :version "0.0.0" or something like that.
2020-03-13T14:22:40Z Shinmera: It's not a big problem though, so don't worry.
2020-03-13T14:23:03Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up radiance 1.12
2020-03-13T14:23:04Z Colleen: 1.12 migration system https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance#1.12_migration_system
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2020-03-13T14:24:09Z Shinmera: It's useful when you have live installations and you need to change something about the data format and such.
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2020-03-13T15:12:10Z Xach: heisig: hi, http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-03-12/failure-report/sealable-metaobjects.html#sealable-metaobjects-test-suite is a thing that puzzles me greatly!
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2020-03-13T15:13:30Z random-nick: does format have way to repeat a character an amount of times passed as an argument??
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2020-03-13T15:14:04Z heisig: Xach: Thanks, I will look into it.  Seems like I funcall NIL at some point...
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2020-03-13T15:14:23Z Shinmera: (format T "~v{x~}" n '(0))
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2020-03-13T15:16:40Z heisig: Xach: Do the failure reports include the git revision somewhere?  Because I had 10 new commit since then, and I cannot reproduce the error locally.
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2020-03-13T15:21:23Z random-nick: thank you
2020-03-13T15:23:15Z Xach: heisig: no, they don't, i'll just wait for today's run to see if it persists.
2020-03-13T15:23:23Z Xach: heisig: i am using (almost) the latest sbcl from git though.
2020-03-13T15:23:51Z Xach: i need to add provenance info for better debugging
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2020-03-13T16:42:47Z didi: SLIME's C-c M-e is great. That's it.
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2020-03-13T16:45:12Z jmercouris: sure is
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2020-03-13T17:02:46Z sukaeto: shidima: I've had luck with caveman2. It's written by Eitaro Fukamachi (the same guy who wrote clack).
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2020-03-13T17:55:30Z asarch: So | The most powerful hardware ever |<==| Assembly |<---| CFFI |--->| The most powerful Lisp ever: Common Lisp |
2020-03-13T17:55:39Z asarch: There is no limit for Common Lisp, right?
2020-03-13T17:56:20Z koenig: Only in that which can be computed.
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2020-03-13T17:58:24Z asarch: Yeah! \o/
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2020-03-13T18:33:39Z pjb: koenig: if the universe is a "computer simulation", wouldn't that mean that everything in the universe can be computed?
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2020-03-13T18:35:15Z pjb: The problem is not really what can be computed vs. what cannot be computed.  It's more between what can be represented vs. what cannot be represented.  The later cannot be thought, we can't even know it.
2020-03-13T18:38:11Z pjb: For example, the cardinal of ℕ cannot be "computed", but it can still be represented as ℵ₀
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2020-03-13T20:12:01Z republican_devil: hey why isnt lisp all around not java? java is garbage and ellison should be jailed for treason
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2020-03-13T20:15:52Z pjb: republican_devil: how many applications used by actual users did you write in lisp?
2020-03-13T20:16:21Z pjb: republican_devil: in the mean-time, Java developpers have written a ton of Java applications used by actual users…
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2020-03-13T20:18:05Z pjb: republican_devil: Just write useful applications and tools in CL, and users will buy them.  They don't care what language it's written in.
2020-03-13T20:18:44Z pjb: republican_devil: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2020-03-13T20:19:05Z pjb: republican_devil: https://franz.com/success/
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2020-03-13T21:07:08Z Shinmera: didn't we have this guy on here before with really basic trolls
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2020-03-13T21:29:27Z aeth: Okay, I can see why beach wouldn't want to start a Common Lisp implementation with a subset and then build CLOS on top of that subset.
2020-03-13T21:30:36Z aeth: I'm writing my Scheme reader in Common Lisp and I started with just doing conditional branches on the macro syntax itself, and then I moved it into conditional branches dispatching on structs, and then I turned those structs into DEFCLASS once I started writing quite a few generic methods on top of them for simplification. A tokenizer is apparently best expressed with full OO, at least in Common Lisp.
2020-03-13T21:31:39Z aeth: That is, it's a lot easier/cleaner to make sure every class has a method than it is to make sure that every ETYPECASE has a branch, at least in reading.
2020-03-13T21:33:50Z aeth: I suppose I could have written a pattern matching macro to write a pattern matching macro to write a reader, though.
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2020-03-14T03:04:36Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Let's see if I remember that type system syntax thing.
2020-03-14T03:05:08Z no-defun-allowed: [blank line]
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2020-03-14T03:05:11Z no-defun-allowed: -------------
2020-03-14T03:05:40Z no-defun-allowed: Γ ⊢ e : ⊤
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2020-03-14T03:10:49Z republican_devil: picolisp looks kinda cool
2020-03-14T03:10:57Z republican_devil: had multi node database adn webgui stuff
2020-03-14T03:11:00Z no-defun-allowed: It's not Common Lisp.
2020-03-14T03:11:04Z republican_devil: only lists not arrays
2020-03-14T03:11:12Z republican_devil: how is common lisp nicer?
2020-03-14T03:11:23Z republican_devil: lisp compiles is one thign right?
2020-03-14T03:11:30Z republican_devil: and has more data stuuctures?
2020-03-14T03:11:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, and it only gives you dynamic scoping, no compiler (which would be very difficult nonetheless), among other things.
2020-03-14T03:11:44Z republican_devil is now known as nationalist_devi
2020-03-14T03:11:58Z nationalist_devi is now known as nationalist_devL
2020-03-14T03:12:22Z nationalist_devL: so how do you learn common lisp? it seems daunting and has frustrated me
2020-03-14T03:12:25Z no-defun-allowed: republican_devil: downcased or titlecased "republican"?
2020-03-14T03:12:44Z equwal is now known as help
2020-03-14T03:12:46Z nationalist_devL: Im not into republican stuff 100% more nationalist
2020-03-14T03:12:59Z no-defun-allowed: okay, step 1: read The Conquest of Bread
2020-03-14T03:13:07Z nationalist_devL: whats that?
2020-03-14T03:13:11Z no-defun-allowed: minion: tell nationalist_devL about Practical Common Lisp
2020-03-14T03:13:12Z minion: nationalist_devL: look at Practical Common Lisp: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-03-14T03:13:15Z help is now known as Guest91981
2020-03-14T03:13:23Z Guest91981: minion: help
2020-03-14T03:13:24Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2020-03-14T03:13:25Z no-defun-allowed: That's step 2.
2020-03-14T03:13:31Z Guest91981 is now known as equwal
2020-03-14T03:13:54Z no-defun-allowed: How many nicks do you need to get advice on beginner material?
2020-03-14T03:14:35Z nationalist_devL: oh I just changed it
2020-03-14T03:14:41Z nationalist_devL: bcause I am not longer republican
2020-03-14T03:14:53Z equwal: What is a republican?
2020-03-14T03:15:00Z White_Flame: nationalist_devL: #clschool is also dedicated to learning, while this channel tends to get deep in the details
2020-03-14T03:15:23Z nationalist_devL: political party in USA
2020-03-14T03:15:38Z no-defun-allowed: equwal: not relevant to #lisp, but titlecased and downcased "republican" are two different beliefs.
2020-03-14T03:15:40Z White_Flame: (also, wasn't it always "don't bring up religion & politics in public discussion"? we have off-topic channels for that)
2020-03-14T03:15:58Z nationalist_devL: so let me ask this.....I see a lot of things to do web gui apps and to sclae them and the data part seems more and more important
2020-03-14T03:16:38Z nationalist_devL: I was reading paul grahams stuff and he said that he used files and 1 lisp interpreter for each web client...now that seemsed cool and just stored info in files on a netapp
2020-03-14T03:17:01Z White_Flame: 99.999999% of web apps don't need massive scaling because they won't have a massive audience
2020-03-14T03:17:07Z nationalist_devL: heh
2020-03-14T03:17:31Z nationalist_devL: can you do web programming in a functional programming style?
2020-03-14T03:17:37Z White_Flame: and with hardware getting faster, and libraries & compilers getting better, that majority gets bigger
2020-03-14T03:17:47Z White_Flame: "functional programming" has 2 meanings
2020-03-14T03:17:53Z White_Flame: 1) pure functional programming, a la haskell
2020-03-14T03:18:00Z White_Flame: 2) programming with passing around first-class functions
2020-03-14T03:18:04Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, by both meanings.
2020-03-14T03:18:34Z no-defun-allowed: But you shouldn't really care about paradigms in Common Lisp; do whatever suits the problem and suits your mind.
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2020-03-14T03:19:44Z nationalist_devL: I've heard that lisp allows a lot of freedom of expression.
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2020-03-14T03:20:00Z nationalist_devL: Anyone here do any web programming?
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2020-03-14T03:20:09Z White_Flame: being able to extend the language itself certainly allows a lot of expressivity
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2020-03-14T03:20:29Z no-defun-allowed: You might not want Lisp then if you don't like freedom of expression.
2020-03-14T03:20:36Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I have written some web programs before.
2020-03-14T03:20:38Z nationalist_devL: oh I think I do
2020-03-14T03:20:41Z White_Flame: there's also #lispweb, but I presume most people there are also here
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2020-03-14T03:21:47Z nationalist_devL: cliki.net has a bunch of stuff
2020-03-14T03:21:49Z nationalist_devL: wow
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2020-03-14T03:22:10Z nationalist_devL: lisp on lines, weblochs antiweb wookie
2020-03-14T03:22:13Z nationalist_devL: whew
2020-03-14T03:22:18Z nationalist_devL: hunentoot
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2020-03-14T03:24:16Z White_Flame: it's hard to know what's the most recent/preferred just from cliki.  Hunchentoot & clack are the 2 most common things I see used
2020-03-14T03:24:40Z White_Flame: (will have to get into http & websocket hosting again soon)
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2020-03-14T03:53:09Z nationalist_devL: the mind wanders
2020-03-14T03:53:13Z nationalist_devL: many ways to do things
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2020-03-14T03:57:50Z nationalist_devL: lisp seems to make things as simple as processing a list to get the subset and the sorting the subset and then displaing its or calaucations absed on a subset of data
2020-03-14T03:58:06Z nationalist_devL: is that what it allows? to make things simple
2020-03-14T03:58:23Z White_Flame: yes, performing such operations on lists is part of the standard language
2020-03-14T03:58:42Z White_Flame: the real power is when you use that to process source code (since s-expressions are just lists), and do metaprogramming
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2020-03-14T04:04:05Z White_Flame: also, lisp has arrays, hashtables, structures, classes/objects, etc
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2020-03-14T04:59:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-14T04:59:32Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2020-03-14T05:22:40Z antonv: is armedbear-devel@common-lisp.net broken?
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2020-03-14T06:43:11Z iiee: python < lisp am i rite?
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2020-03-14T06:54:33Z beach: iiee: I don't think you would get an unbiased answer in this channel.
2020-03-14T06:55:40Z ebrasca: iiee: My unbiased opition is lisp is best language ever.
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2020-03-14T07:30:07Z no-defun-allowed: I quite like the CMUCL and SBCL compiler.
2020-03-14T07:32:14Z beach: But a type-error will be signaled if you try to compare it to a programming language.
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2020-03-14T07:50:30Z iiee: hmm
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2020-03-14T07:56:20Z beach: iiee: I suggest you ask questions about the characteristics of Common Lisp instead.  That way, you will get more precise answers and you can make up your own mind.
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2020-03-14T08:38:54Z aeth: Common Lisp is better at being Common Lisp than most other programming languages.
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2020-03-14T08:39:54Z iiee: my lisp variant is superior to the other lisps
2020-03-14T08:39:59Z jackdaniel: weren't you here yesterday with the same bait?
2020-03-14T08:40:55Z flip214_: iiee: because you don't use any parens?
2020-03-14T08:41:27Z iiee: flip214_: maybe
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2020-03-14T08:42:52Z flip214_: well, without any facts we can't acknowledge your lisp's superiority
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2020-03-14T08:43:27Z iiee: flip214_: it does indeed only require parentheses for variadic functions
2020-03-14T08:44:04Z jackdaniel: please refrain from offtopic. this is a common lisp related channel.
2020-03-14T08:44:40Z iiee: my thing is also called common lisp... so i think i am ontopic
2020-03-14T08:44:43Z aeth: iiee: ##lisp is for comparative Lisps, the Lisp family, etc.
2020-03-14T08:44:50Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2020-03-14T08:44:53Z jackdaniel has set mode +b *!*user@109.108.213.*
2020-03-14T08:44:59Z aeth: #lisp is for the language conforming with http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/common-lisp.html
2020-03-14T08:45:01Z iiee [~jackdanie@turtleware.eu] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (iiee)
2020-03-14T08:45:08Z flip214_: iiee: well, but that means that there's no homoiconicity between macros, functions, data, type definitions, and other stuff
2020-03-14T08:45:11Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
2020-03-14T08:45:15Z jackdaniel: I'm not very patient today, sorry
2020-03-14T08:45:16Z flip214_: jackdaniel: oh, that's not nice
2020-03-14T08:45:35Z flip214_ is now known as flip214
2020-03-14T08:45:38Z jackdaniel: well, I'm convinced he was trolling
2020-03-14T08:46:03Z flip214: even trolls might teach you new ways to look at something.... but yeah, perhaps this is the wrong place
2020-03-14T08:46:44Z flip214: [sorry, one more off-topic: anybody else having problems with transatlantic sites, like dilbert.com?]
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2020-03-14T08:48:42Z MichaelRaskin: I think pretending calling a different language Common Lisp is a bit on the malicious side of trolling, and I am willing to discuss differential debugging of long-distance routing in #lispcafe ([WORKSFORME])
2020-03-14T08:50:05Z flip214: MichaelRaskin: thanks
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2020-03-14T09:09:21Z flip214: Hi. When trying to render (Shift-Z) or sometimes during normal work blender crashes; the message is: BLI_assert failed: /build/blender-gtX5fg/blender-2.82+dfsg/source/blender/gpu/intern/gpu_framebuffer.c:780, GPU_framebuffer_recursive_downsample(), at '0x8CD5 == __glewCheckFramebufferStatus(0x8D40)'
2020-03-14T09:09:29Z flip214: sorry, wrong channel
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2020-03-14T09:22:20Z Posterdati: hi
2020-03-14T09:22:47Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
2020-03-14T09:22:51Z Posterdati: please help, is anyone using lisp-executable to create standalone executables?
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2020-03-14T09:23:33Z Posterdati: I'm following this --> http://markcox80.github.io/lisp-executable/
2020-03-14T09:24:05Z Posterdati: but the program execution gave me this error: $ /tmp/guessing-number --help
2020-03-14T09:24:05Z Posterdati: Unhandled error: No program information available for MY-PROGRAM
2020-03-14T09:24:09Z phoe: Posterdati: sorry, I'm from the deploy gang
2020-03-14T09:24:12Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
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2020-03-14T09:30:47Z Posterdati: ok thanks
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2020-03-14T09:41:57Z Posterdati: please is there any tutorial for deploy? Thanks!
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2020-03-14T09:47:46Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: net.didierverna.clon has a good manual (and it is yet another utility to create executables with cli interfaces)
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2020-03-14T09:50:46Z Posterdati: please is there any tutorial for deploy (the package deploy)? Thanks!
2020-03-14T09:51:19Z Shinmera: It's right fucking there on the page phoe linked
2020-03-14T09:51:50Z Posterdati: nice, not working
2020-03-14T09:52:13Z Posterdati: I won't call it a tutorial
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2020-03-14T09:53:40Z Posterdati: #<SYSTEM "guessing-number">'s  entry point guessing-number:start is not coercable to a class or function!
2020-03-14T09:56:39Z Posterdati: sorry!!!! My fault! Fixed now!
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2020-03-14T11:43:01Z random-nick: is there a way to ignore the first element in loop's for across?
2020-03-14T11:44:21Z Shinmera: Not without creating a new vector or doing manual indexing.
2020-03-14T11:45:13Z Shinmera: Easy enough to replace with the latter, though. (loop for i from 1 below (length v) for element = (aref v i) ...)
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2020-03-14T14:38:28Z ebrasca: Hi , is it normal to wait for month and don't get PR acepted or rejected?
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2020-03-14T14:44:22Z Shinmera: Depends
2020-03-14T14:44:32Z beach: It depends on the project and the maintainer(s).
2020-03-14T14:45:16Z ebrasca: Here it is https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/63
2020-03-14T14:46:09Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix is a busy guy.
2020-03-14T14:49:15Z ebrasca: Who is fe[nl]ix ?
2020-03-14T14:49:28Z Shinmera: The maintainer of bordeaux-threads.
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2020-03-14T16:28:13Z lukego: Quicklisp issue. I'm following the instructions at https://github.com/borodust/bodge-ui-window to install from a specific quicklisp dist but some bodge packages (notable CLAW) are ending up installed from mainline quicklisp instead of the dist I've specified. This breaks stuff because of version mismatch. Some trick to give preference to the out-of-mainline packages?
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2020-03-14T16:51:43Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Do make group call in Atlanta Funcional Programing about lisp?
2020-03-14T16:53:45Z jackdaniel: I once had a presentation about McCLIM there
2020-03-14T16:56:01Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Do you manage someting similar?
2020-03-14T16:56:41Z jackdaniel: I'm not hosting any meetups if that's what you are asking
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2020-03-14T17:48:54Z axion: CL Study Group starting now. Covering the MOP some more: https://hangouts.google.com/call/uCaVMwjDDFwI_-89LNv-AEEE
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2020-03-14T18:17:03Z ebrasca: axion: Can you shara later youtube link?, I don't have google acount.
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2020-03-14T20:33:06Z aeth: Any news about what's happening to ELS 2020?
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2020-03-14T21:05:15Z Shinmera: No news so far but it's not looking good.
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2020-03-14T23:54:33Z HiRE: howdy everyone
2020-03-14T23:55:02Z no-defun-allowed: g'day
2020-03-14T23:55:30Z HiRE: I had a dumb idea but I thought it'd be a fun thought experiment. How would someone write a C compiler in common lisp? Ignoring the fact no one would ever do this - I'm curious how you could generate an executable with it.
2020-03-14T23:55:47Z HiRE: the lexing part seems straight forward
2020-03-14T23:55:59Z HiRE: through the magic of symbols
2020-03-14T23:56:33Z no-defun-allowed: What are your requirements for the "generated executable"?
2020-03-14T23:56:40Z _death: it's already been done, HiRE
2020-03-14T23:56:57Z no-defun-allowed: The lousiest way would be to generate Lisp functions, then do something like (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die ... :toplevel #'c-code:main)
2020-03-14T23:57:19Z HiRE: oh I should be specific. Generate an ELF executable.
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2020-03-14T23:57:41Z HiRE: death, do you have a link? I'd love to look at it
2020-03-14T23:57:47Z _death: HiRE: https://cliki.net/Zeta-C
2020-03-14T23:57:51Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, s-l-a-d does that.
2020-03-14T23:58:24Z HiRE: oh cool how interesting
2020-03-14T23:59:02Z HiRE: wow zeta C has been around forever
2020-03-14T23:59:09Z HiRE: according to the comp.lang.scheme post
2020-03-15T00:00:12Z HiRE: I was kind of curious how they would solve pointers and what-not
2020-03-15T00:00:25Z HiRE: because at least as far as my lisp experience has gone, there's no easy way to address unsafe memory in lisp.
2020-03-15T00:01:39Z _death: you could just allocate a huge (sparse?) array and represent pointers as indices to it
2020-03-15T00:03:03Z HiRE: that makes sense since you'd be relying on the backing of lisp anyway. One thing the usenet post mentioned was zeta C cut a few corners like implementing ints and longs as lisp numbers so bignums existed magically without any extra work
2020-03-15T00:03:09Z HiRE: which is _really_ cool but also not standard C
2020-03-15T00:04:11Z HiRE: After reading that paper on a lisp operating system I got to thinking about how you'd implement all the little things. One of the things on my list would be a decent C compiler since a ton of good software is in C and rewriting it would be a nightmare.
2020-03-15T00:04:52Z oni-on-ion: delicious C with numeric tower and macros and repl. with ECL its potentially easier to CL->C
2020-03-15T00:05:10Z oni-on-ion: oh
2020-03-15T00:05:49Z oni-on-ion: i think that kernel drivers might be more of a nightmare
2020-03-15T00:06:01Z _death: HiRE: well, the cliki entry also mentions vacietis, which should work (sans bitrot?)
2020-03-15T00:06:17Z oni-on-ion: CL is immune to bitrot =P
2020-03-15T00:07:10Z HiRE: yeah I thought that kernel drivers and process management would be dissertation worthy exercises
2020-03-15T00:07:26Z _death: ah yes, it's in quicklisp, so likely works
2020-03-15T00:07:36Z HiRE: bootstrapping it might require C?
2020-03-15T00:07:41Z HiRE: or at least some ASM I would guess.
2020-03-15T00:07:46Z _death: hmm, or maybe not
2020-03-15T00:08:09Z Bike: sometimes when people talk about lisp operating systems they mean something managed, so you couldn't just run random C code
2020-03-15T00:08:13Z Bike: this is the case for SICL for example
2020-03-15T00:08:22Z Bike: (i'm pretty sure, at least)
2020-03-15T00:08:40Z HiRE: What would a managed operating system entail? I figured the OS would have a baseline requirement of ring 0
2020-03-15T00:09:03Z HiRE: unless I guess you wrote a small bootstrap kernel VM and ran the thing on top of it...
2020-03-15T00:09:18Z _death: ok, this works (let ((*readtable* vacietis:c-readtable) (vacietis:*compiler-state* (vacietis:make-compiler-state))) (read-from-string "int foo(int x, int y) { return x + y; }"))
2020-03-15T00:09:21Z Bike: well, i mean, in that some of the safety is due to the compiler rather than the runtime
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2020-03-15T00:10:05Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singularity_(operating_system) is the working example i'm vaguely aware of
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2020-03-15T00:13:32Z aeth: An alternate approach you could use for a C compiler is to use CFFI data structures as your compilation target, if that's complete enough.
2020-03-15T00:13:48Z aeth: It would be just as unsafe as C, of course, and it would be slower than C because of the overhead of CFFI
2020-03-15T00:15:38Z oni-on-ion: aha
2020-03-15T00:15:46Z HiRE: ah yeah, since its a thought experiment I didnt consider safety
2020-03-15T00:15:54Z HiRE: just the question of how it'd be done
2020-03-15T00:16:42Z HiRE: oh interesting singularity works how I supposed above
2020-03-15T00:16:54Z HiRE: a small bootstrapped client has some stuff that then runs the kernel in a management environment
2020-03-15T00:16:56Z HiRE: thats really cool
2020-03-15T00:17:09Z HiRE: I wonder what kind of overhead you'd have with ring 0 garbage collection
2020-03-15T00:17:39Z Bike: that's kind of different. i mean there's no reason a lisp machine has to use a vm at all
2020-03-15T00:17:45Z no-defun-allowed: Not much.
2020-03-15T00:18:22Z froggey: Iota uses the "giant ub8 vector" approach for pointers. nothing weird or unsafe required
2020-03-15T00:18:36Z no-defun-allowed: If everything uses the same memory space, then you can "reuse" objects, so there would be less to collect.
2020-03-15T00:19:25Z no-defun-allowed: And, of course, you can set up the memory management unit however you want, so it could be somewhat more efficient than in a process.
2020-03-15T00:20:41Z HiRE: well yeah I'd suppose not. Symbolics stuff never used a VM but it did use specialized hardware. So eventually your abstraction would have to crack somewhere and you'd have to touch ASM or C I would guess.
2020-03-15T00:20:48Z HiRE: perhaps at the kernel device driver level
2020-03-15T00:21:03Z no-defun-allowed: Also of course, any overhead saved by not having garbage collection is probably reintroduced by having to copy data needlessly and programmers getting confused about who frees what.
2020-03-15T00:21:18Z Bike: probably just assembly
2020-03-15T00:21:31Z HiRE: my wonder with ring 0 GC was if you had something like stop the world garbage collection your entire OS could in theory grind to a halt for a short time
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2020-03-15T00:22:15Z no-defun-allowed: Don't use a STW collector then.
2020-03-15T00:22:41Z buffergn0me: Vacietis should be portable Common Lisp (if not, it is a bug)
2020-03-15T00:23:00Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp machines had that problem, then reduced it significantly using incremental collection, and then generational collection.
2020-03-15T00:23:01Z buffergn0me: Jiyuno Megami's fork has some very interesting SBCL-specific functionality: https://github.com/jiyunomegami/Vacietis
2020-03-15T00:23:40Z _death: froggey: nice
2020-03-15T00:23:53Z froggey: assembly is only really needed for dealing with really weird parts of the machine and most of the time you can get away with thin wrappers around whatever feature is causing trouble
2020-03-15T00:24:01Z froggey: and for drivers the only primitives you need are some way to access memory & deal with interrupts
2020-03-15T00:24:07Z froggey: no C required anywhere
2020-03-15T00:26:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you would just want to be able to call into Lisp from an interrupt and a few primitives for accessing memory and...were they ports in x86? x86 also has a "port" address space from memory.
2020-03-15T00:26:06Z buffergn0me: Also Vacietis can already generate stand-alone executables in the manner no-defun-allowed mentioned
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2020-03-15T00:26:50Z no-defun-allowed: I think those are ports.
2020-03-15T00:27:06Z HiRE: yah I think the term was ports
2020-03-15T00:27:20Z froggey: yeah. x86 has IO ports, accessed with special instructions ("in" and "out")
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2020-03-15T00:27:24Z _death: no-defun-allowed: there are IN and OUT instructions for ports
2020-03-15T00:27:39Z no-defun-allowed: Yup.
2020-03-15T00:28:21Z buffergn0me: It should be possible to hack up a wrapper for ECL's c:build-static-library to make libraries
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2020-03-15T00:29:03Z no-defun-allowed: Contrast to 68k and friends, which only have memory mapped devices, and should have been the predominant architecture...grumble grumble.
2020-03-15T00:31:39Z buffergn0me: wrt to drivers, the reason I wrote Vacieties was to enable no-change use of OpenBSD drivers in a future Lisp operating system (this was before Mezzano, or at least before I had heard of it, and after Movitz was abandoned)
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2020-03-15T00:32:47Z buffergn0me: NetBSD came up with very nice portable APIs for device drivers that OpenBSD largely adapted (OpenBSD has more drivers)
2020-03-15T00:34:05Z buffergn0me: Although NetBSD has RUMP which is basically this use case and should make things easier
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2020-03-15T00:35:35Z buffergn0me: Also in retrospect I realized that Vacietis should be useful for generating FFI glue code from header files, although no one has done that yet
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2020-03-15T03:10:55Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: port io is easier to implement in hw
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2020-03-15T03:29:09Z no-defun-allowed: In the processor or in the external logic? There would be decoding either way.
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2020-03-15T03:30:03Z HiRE: hah I wrote a toy OS with a stupid command line a long time ago. A lisp OS is way outside my pay grade. My current paygrade is "can implement a stack and queue using CLOS"
2020-03-15T03:30:37Z HiRE: being a professional developer, I've realized its incredibly hard to spin up quickly to a language using your own ingenuity lol
2020-03-15T03:31:41Z HiRE: suppose I should just enjoy the journe
2020-03-15T03:31:42Z HiRE: y
2020-03-15T03:34:58Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, maybe it involves less decoding with an IO port pin. My reading of some PCI clients suggests that you end up using memory mapped IO for fast things like storage.
2020-03-15T03:36:41Z oni-on-ion: it is the Lisp Curse
2020-03-15T03:36:59Z no-defun-allowed: What?
2020-03-15T03:37:06Z oni-on-ion: "Lisp is so powerful that problems which are technical issues in other programming languages are social issues in Lisp"
2020-03-15T03:37:31Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, that.
2020-03-15T03:37:33Z oni-on-ion: needs people, a sangha of hackers =)
2020-03-15T03:38:44Z no-defun-allowed: That is a conspiracy made by the webshit companies to sell more web page---wait, no I'm supposed to be serious. No, but the author of that had little reason to comment on Lisp, and it's not as if it doesn't exist with other languages.
2020-03-15T03:39:44Z HiRE: its just a great language because it doesnt try to be anything
2020-03-15T03:39:56Z HiRE: I am really tired of the current trend of benevolent dictators for life
2020-03-15T03:39:57Z no-defun-allowed: You just have more that can be argued over, with macros, metaprogramming et al; but of course, you also get to have those features on the flip side.
2020-03-15T03:40:12Z no-defun-allowed: HiRE: Definitely.
2020-03-15T03:40:44Z HiRE: I consult professionally. Clients often _tell_ me what languages they want.
2020-03-15T03:40:59Z HiRE: usually its <bleeding_edge_tech> just 'cus
2020-03-15T03:41:09Z HiRE: im left asking why more often I than I prefer.
2020-03-15T03:41:27Z HiRE: Not that I'd force lisp on these people...but you have to wonder why a big company would prefer a walled garden over something more flexible.
2020-03-15T03:41:32Z oni-on-ion: what i get from that quote/curse, is that lisp programming is a social adventure. in reference to HiRE 's mention of "using one's own ingenuity"
2020-03-15T03:42:29Z no-defun-allowed: If you have enough slack in who you can work with, I would try not to give them an option.
2020-03-15T03:43:02Z HiRE: sometimes I get that option. However beach made a great point in don't write a check your butt cant cash. I can evangelize lisp but when things break I may not be able to fix it...yet
2020-03-15T03:43:26Z no-defun-allowed: Are your clients also programmers?
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2020-03-15T03:43:51Z no-defun-allowed: You don't have to evangelize anything if they're not.
2020-03-15T03:43:57Z HiRE: yeah, I deal exclusively with tech companies.
2020-03-15T03:44:13Z HiRE: Unfortunately cracking the juicy government/state contract nut is a lot harder than it looks.
2020-03-15T03:44:56Z no-defun-allowed: Hm. If they have requirements, and you have requirements, and they don't fit, maybe you should find other clients.
2020-03-15T03:45:38Z HiRE: Well, I was thinking I might be able to push something like racket or clojure that is flavored like modern tech but lispy at its core.
2020-03-15T03:45:57Z HiRE: There's a lot of "if it's not used by FAANG+ its not good enough for us"
2020-03-15T03:46:18Z HiRE: sometimes you have to take work to eat...lol
2020-03-15T03:46:52Z HiRE: clojure was my current idea as a selling point because of interop with the JVM
2020-03-15T03:47:02Z HiRE: good intro to lisp for a client without much risk to their infra
2020-03-15T03:47:15Z oni-on-ion: hmm what's the "N"?
2020-03-15T03:47:25Z HiRE: I think it's supposed to be netflix
2020-03-15T03:47:28Z oni-on-ion: ahh
2020-03-15T03:47:40Z no-defun-allowed: What's the other letters? Facebook, Apple, another A...Google?
2020-03-15T03:47:49Z oni-on-ion: i wonder if that was an afterthought, considering the word without the N
2020-03-15T03:48:00Z HiRE: facebook apple amazon netfix google (+ everything-like-them)
2020-03-15T03:48:00Z oni-on-ion: amazon
2020-03-15T03:48:31Z oni-on-ion: ah nuts i had the two A's backwards. =)
2020-03-15T03:48:42Z no-defun-allowed: I dunno, are any clients even close to that scale? If not, I would just say that you probably have different techniques.
2020-03-15T03:50:05Z HiRE: hah, thats the funny part
2020-03-15T03:50:07Z HiRE: no not at all
2020-03-15T03:50:24Z HiRE: For example, I had a long engagement with a client who used golang for everything despite it being arguably the worst choice for everything.
2020-03-15T03:50:32Z HiRE: If you couldn't guess, their CTO was an ex-googler.
2020-03-15T03:50:42Z HiRE: small company, maybe 50MM rev and 100 employees.
2020-03-15T03:51:17Z HiRE: this is where my clojure play came in to my mind
2020-03-15T03:51:23Z HiRE: lots of them have ancient JVM backends
2020-03-15T03:51:30Z HiRE: no one wants to touch it, and its mostly managed by greybeards.
2020-03-15T03:51:39Z oni-on-ion: clojurescript uses google tools (one called, ironically, closure)
2020-03-15T03:51:45Z no-defun-allowed: One analogy I hear is that building a dog house is trivial, but building a larger building much less so; it's not like you can just scale it up by a factor of N.
2020-03-15T03:52:15Z HiRE: I did get one client to use cljs a while ago when clojure was a hot commodity.
2020-03-15T03:52:21Z HiRE: Thats where my interest in lisps really spurred.
2020-03-15T03:52:26Z oni-on-ion: also there is ABCL, no-defun-allowed 's favorite implementation
2020-03-15T03:52:37Z HiRE: Whats the difference between ABCL and SBCL? I use sbcl
2020-03-15T03:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: The reverse also works; your dog house doesn't need much in terms of stabilisation.
2020-03-15T03:52:52Z no-defun-allowed: ABCL runs on the JVM and is called "Armed Bear Common Lisp".
2020-03-15T03:53:06Z HiRE: oh thats incredible. I didnt know that. Sell me on it
2020-03-15T03:53:09Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL runs without a virtual machine and is called "Steel Banks Common Lisp".
2020-03-15T03:53:21Z HiRE: I know clojure so how would you compare abcl to clojure?
2020-03-15T03:53:46Z oni-on-ion: one bank
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2020-03-15T03:54:06Z no-defun-allowed: From a philosophical POV, ABCL is still Lisp that happens to run on a JVM. Clojure is "Lisp" in Java.
2020-03-15T03:54:06Z oni-on-ion: abcl is the same lisp as sbcl -- clojure is its own thing
2020-03-15T03:54:18Z no-defun-allowed: Also, only the former is on topic :)
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2020-03-15T03:55:18Z HiRE: oh ok, I see. I won't talk about clojure then :)
2020-03-15T03:55:22Z no-defun-allowed: By that, I mean ABCL implements just about all of ANSI Common Lisp on the JVM, diverging from Java, most notably in the object and condition systems and numeric tower in my opinion.
2020-03-15T03:55:24Z HiRE: so ABCL is a common lisp
2020-03-15T03:55:29Z HiRE: but on the JVM
2020-03-15T03:55:32Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks. I'm allergic to coffee.
2020-03-15T03:55:41Z HiRE: im sorry it must be tough being a developer :P
2020-03-15T03:55:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, ABCL is an implementation of Common Lisp on the Java virtual machine.
2020-03-15T03:56:28Z HiRE: thats a pretty slick idea tbh. As long as it compiles down to class files and jars there's zero risk to introducing it into a system
2020-03-15T03:56:32Z oni-on-ion: eww @ coffeescript. yay @ cappuccino (and objective-j)
2020-03-15T03:56:44Z HiRE: (coffeescript gives me PTSD)
2020-03-15T03:56:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't program for money yet, and the Java I do know from university is just procedural code with "public class FileName { public static void main(String[] args) { ... } }" around it.
2020-03-15T03:57:31Z HiRE: Professionally speaking everything java project I've contracted with from about 2014 on was a mix of languages
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2020-03-15T03:57:41Z HiRE: the JVM is a very powerful uniting force in development
2020-03-15T03:57:46Z HiRE: its very cool a common lisp runs on it
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2020-03-15T03:58:19Z HiRE: by mix of languages I mean it was vanilla java, scala, some clojure, <obscure language that compiles to java bytecode>
2020-03-15T03:58:28Z HiRE: it didn't really matter as long as someone was maintaining it and it compiled.
2020-03-15T03:58:39Z HiRE: ABCL would be a VERY easy sell for me.
2020-03-15T03:58:42Z no-defun-allowed: The other main difference is that the FFI looks less normal. You write something like (java:jcall "methodName" subject arguments...) instead of (.methodName subject arguments), which is also much less funny.
2020-03-15T03:59:10Z HiRE: I feel like (java:jcall ...) seems better anyway
2020-03-15T03:59:21Z HiRE: (.instanceName args) feels super...weird
2020-03-15T03:59:36Z HiRE: methodName*
2020-03-15T03:59:44Z no-defun-allowed: I think the ABCL contrib package has a little reader macro that makes (#"methodName" subject arguments ...) work though.
2020-03-15T04:00:02Z HiRE: I guess that also jives with multiple dispatch sorta
2020-03-15T04:00:08Z HiRE: SORTA
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2020-03-15T04:00:53Z HiRE: in the sense you get the same form (func-name (matcher match) args) kind of thing
2020-03-15T04:01:14Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion thinks ABCL is my favourite implementation because I've wrote substantially about getting ABCL to talk to Minecraft, for which I had to hack up some custom funcallable-instances to make deobsfucation and the interface feel right.
2020-03-15T04:02:10Z HiRE: I have no real preference. I use SBCL mostly because it seems fast and can compile to native code.
2020-03-15T04:02:20Z HiRE: which is a really weak reason to like it.
2020-03-15T04:02:25Z no-defun-allowed: That is very unnecessary unless you have to handle your own obfuscation, but making a package with wrapper functions so you can write (java-module:get-foo foo-having-thing) is cute.
2020-03-15T04:03:22Z HiRE: I also use SBCL because lispworks is expensive even if I use my student ID.
2020-03-15T04:03:45Z no-defun-allowed: (which ends up looking like <https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/minecraft-hacks/abcl-minecraft/-/blob/master/lisp/examples/aimbot.lisp>)
2020-03-15T04:04:27Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. Clozure Common Lisp and ECL both compile to machine code (the latter with C as an intermediate step), so you have other options for free/libre native-code implementations.
2020-03-15T04:06:03Z no-defun-allowed: The former has a compiler that does less optimisations, which is good if you're compiling a lot of code (which you rarely will), and subjectively nicer source code.
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2020-03-15T04:07:58Z HiRE: I strangely like the idea of compiling to C as an intermediary step
2020-03-15T04:08:05Z HiRE: because you can leverage the decades of optimization in GCC/clang
2020-03-15T04:09:03Z oni-on-ion: plus emscripten =P
2020-03-15T04:09:18Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think it works well in practice. aeth would say something like, "C compilers optimize C idioms well, generating C rarely creates code that uses said idioms".
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2020-03-15T04:10:33Z aeth: Right.
2020-03-15T04:11:44Z aeth: Even hardcore C/C++ fans will generally recommend LLVM IR instead of directly targeting C these days, except even that has issues. Clasp does this and has encountered quite a few problems that other CL implementations don't have to deal with, such as slow conditions (the CL equivalent of exceptions/errors)
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2020-03-15T04:12:26Z aeth: C compilers are written for C/C++ semantics (usually they at the very least handle both languages these days)
2020-03-15T04:14:58Z aeth: Things that the C/C++ world doesn't think about but that can be done efficiently in ASM include multiple return values, which CL has.
2020-03-15T04:16:43Z aeth: That being said, ECL does compile to C and Clasp does compile to LLVM IR, so both approaches are used, they're just slower in practice than SBCL. There should probably be an FAQ, that includes this point.
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2020-03-15T04:22:21Z HiRE: no-defun-allowed, thats a good point
2020-03-15T04:22:31Z HiRE: if you dont program to C idioms, the optimizer may not optimize right.
2020-03-15T04:22:51Z HiRE: also makes sense aeth
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2020-03-15T04:44:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-15T04:48:08Z aeth: good morning beach
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2020-03-15T05:27:52Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: port io is simple on the external logic and on implementing channel DMA
2020-03-15T05:28:06Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: decoding logic is also greatly simplified
2020-03-15T05:30:35Z p_l: works pretty similar to SPI if you made it 8/16 bit wide
2020-03-15T05:31:24Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2020-03-15T05:32:53Z p_l: no-defun-allowed: also, it's very, very easy to make channel DMA capability with ISA port IO. no need to busmaster etc,
2020-03-15T05:33:31Z tourjin: how can I check if I have sb-grovel ?
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2020-03-15T05:40:50Z equwal: (in-package :sb-grovel)
2020-03-15T05:41:17Z equwal: (find-package :sb-grovell)
2020-03-15T05:41:31Z equwal: (find-package :sb-grovel)
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2020-03-15T06:05:37Z tourjin: am I connected?
2020-03-15T06:05:52Z beach: Apparently, yes.
2020-03-15T06:06:20Z tourjin: ok how can I check If I have sb-grovel?
2020-03-15T06:06:41Z beach: equwal told you.
2020-03-15T06:07:43Z tourjin: oh.. I did'nt see that. thanks
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2020-03-15T06:56:26Z tourjin: cl-user> prompt changes to sb-grovel> when I invoke (in-package :sb-grovel). is this normal?  and if I type it in emacs slime I have #<package "sb-grovel"> but I type it from sbcl I get nil. why do I have different answer? and why my prompt changes ?
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2020-03-15T06:57:20Z no-defun-allowed: Yep, totally normal.
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2020-03-15T06:58:30Z no-defun-allowed: The prompt does indeed take the name of the current package.
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2020-03-15T06:58:40Z tourjin: i see.
2020-03-15T06:59:03Z no-defun-allowed: I cannot replicate "typing [the IN-PACKAGE form and getting] nil" though.
2020-03-15T06:59:26Z equwal: Try (make-package :safe) (in-package :safe)
2020-03-15T07:00:22Z White_Flame: tourjin: it's in the manual: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dgrovel
2020-03-15T07:00:58Z tourjin: thank you all.
2020-03-15T07:02:21Z White_Flame: but yeah, find-package will tell you if it's present or not
2020-03-15T07:02:30Z White_Flame: something in SLIME is probably pulling it in, while the default cmdline startup doesn't
2020-03-15T07:03:21Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Hard to say immediately. I think MIT LOOP generates the former for (LOOP .... COLLECT ...) though.
2020-03-15T07:03:58Z no-defun-allowed: However, I also heard the latter had more cache-friendly properties, but caches are above my paygrade.
2020-03-15T07:07:07Z no-defun-allowed: Some lousy testing suggests that RPLACD'ing the end of a list with new conses is about 10% faster than PUSHing then NREVERSE on SBCL.
2020-03-15T07:07:48Z no-defun-allowed: Same result on Clozure.
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2020-03-15T07:08:56Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, that's why you said setcar.
2020-03-15T07:09:56Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know the performance characteristics of elisp.
2020-03-15T07:10:05Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I don't see the utterance by LdBeth that you are commenting on.
2020-03-15T07:10:24Z no-defun-allowed: "will construct a list from head to tail with a reference using setcar/setcdr more performant than simply calling push and nreverse?"
2020-03-15T07:10:58Z beach: OK, but where was it uttered?
2020-03-15T07:11:23Z no-defun-allowed: Here, about 10 minutes ago.
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2020-03-15T07:11:30Z beach: Hmm.
2020-03-15T07:12:03Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: I think something between you, matrix, the IRC bridge and #lisp is broken.
2020-03-15T07:12:36Z beach: It didn't make it here and it didn't make it to the logs by Colleen either.
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2020-03-15T07:15:07Z no-defun-allowed: Strangely, I'm not surprised. The bridge operators and Freenode operators aren't on the best of terms, in my opinion which is formed from a brief discussion with a bridge operator, as the bridge has to open one connection per user. Then the bridge runs out of connections.
2020-03-15T07:15:34Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: I saw it, but the tymoon log didn't.
2020-03-15T07:16:16Z ldb: so I pumped up my irssi client
2020-03-15T07:18:58Z no-defun-allowed: It does appear you did.
2020-03-15T07:23:16Z no-defun-allowed: What you missed was: "will construct a list from head to tail with a reference using setcar/setcdr more performant than simply calling push and nreverse?" "with emacs's lisp byte-compiler I can only get the former close to the later but still slower, so I'd blame that emacs's byte code has some overhead" then some confusion about something dropping messages.
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2020-03-15T07:47:55Z equwal: I can't see LdBeth's messages, but he is in the names
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2020-03-15T09:06:23Z Gnuxie[m]: Yes the bridge is 1 connection per user
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2020-03-15T09:06:56Z no-defun-allowed: Gnuxie 💜🐝: I can read your messages from Colleen's log, so...
2020-03-15T09:07:25Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Congratulations! You are today's winner of the connection limit lottery! Your prize is that you don't get to write anything to IRC.
2020-03-15T09:11:04Z equwal: Does "the matrix" refer to matrix.org? And what does that have to do with the #lisp freenode irc?
2020-03-15T09:11:41Z equwal: I'm not clear on the details of this stuff. Can someone donate a bridge if they desire to so LdBeth can submit messages?
2020-03-15T09:11:48Z aeth: matrix does a bridge thing to IRC, and basically acts as a bouncer+client
2020-03-15T09:11:51Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, "Matrix" is matrix.org
2020-03-15T09:12:09Z equwal: So it is the mistake of LdBeth to use that service rather than just connecting to freenode...right?
2020-03-15T09:12:53Z no-defun-allowed: Someone decided the poor souls on it (myself, LdBeth included) needed to be able to communicate with non-Matrix groups, and wrote a bridge which relays messages between Matrix and IRC.
2020-03-15T09:13:00Z jackdaniel: whether it is mistake or not is a question which belongs somewhere else
2020-03-15T09:13:32Z jackdaniel: let's just settle on a fact, that some messages does not arrive from that network
2020-03-15T09:14:22Z equwal: Can I run this bridge on my debian server? I can understand the desire to avoid setting up one's own bouncer -- it is a huge pain.
2020-03-15T09:14:30Z no-defun-allowed: As every user must have a separate connection to the network, and I believe there is only one bridge server, the operator probably has hit a connection limit.
2020-03-15T09:15:04Z equwal: But I'd rather setup my own bouncer than not be able to send messages, LOL.
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2020-03-15T09:15:16Z no-defun-allowed: equwal: Do you want to use IRC from Matrix? It's a bouncer that converts protocols, so you would probably be better served with IRC-only software.
2020-03-15T09:15:18Z jackdaniel: equwal: please move this Q/A session to lispcafe or somewhere else mroe appropriate
2020-03-15T09:15:25Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: same applies to you
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2020-03-15T09:15:53Z equwal: jackdaniel: we did this here because a regular cannot send messages, seemed relevant.
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2020-03-15T09:16:19Z jackdaniel: we've concluded that he can't, we do not discuss here "how to configure irssi", how to "start irc client" etc
2020-03-15T09:16:28Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/ralt/nyx claims to be an IRC bouncer in Lisp. Anyone used that?
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2020-03-15T09:21:03Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2020-03-15T09:27:20Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-03-15T09:51:28Z equwal: I submitted a bug report to Matrix https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1008
2020-03-15T09:51:43Z equwal: I suggest not using their stuff ever.
2020-03-15T09:55:54Z easye: equwal: comments like "We at the #lisp channel kindly think you should use Common Lisp instead of your stack." will probably be counterproductive to helping address your issues.
2020-03-15T09:56:25Z easye: But I guess we all need our snark with our morning quark.
2020-03-15T09:57:22Z equwal: I guess I got enough flame in during the body of the thing.
2020-03-15T09:57:30Z aeth: I mean, it worked out well for the Rust community. In that, "Why don't you rewrite it in Rust?" literally became a meme.
2020-03-15T09:57:49Z equwal: We could adopt that strategy
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2020-03-15T09:58:09Z equwal: Add it to every bug report you make
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2020-03-15T09:58:52Z aeth: When you learn a new programming language, you're less productive than when using a programming language you already know. For months. So suggestions to rewrite a project in another language will almost always be rejected, rationally, since it's irrational to do so.
2020-03-15T09:59:01Z aeth: Now, of course, lots of people will willingly be temporarily irrational.
2020-03-15T09:59:39Z equwal: That is like saying it is irrational to climb down from a low hill in order to cross a valley and go up a higher peak.
2020-03-15T09:59:59Z equwal: If you are trying to get really high, I would consider such a thing rational.
2020-03-15T10:00:39Z aeth: It's almost always too late to rewrite any already-existing, significant project.
2020-03-15T10:01:01Z equwal: I can agree with that.
2020-03-15T10:01:35Z aeth: Few are going to accept many months of no progress, perhaps a year or more, just to change non-user-visible details while ideally locking the API into a 100% stable state so that the rewrite can match the existing API/tests/etc.
2020-03-15T10:01:59Z aeth: Now, of course, someone else could write a compatible version in another language.
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2020-03-15T10:07:02Z ldb: no-defun-allowed: i can send via irssi. it's just my laptop can't have a stable irc connection
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2020-03-15T10:26:43Z tourjin: l (sb-grovel::foreign-nullp dirent) shows me error message like this .   The function SB-GROVEL::FOREIGN-NULLP has been deprecated as of SBCL version 1.2.15.
2020-03-15T10:26:43Z tourjin:  Use SB-ALIEN:NULL-ALIEN instead. so I changed it  (sb-alien:null-alien dirent) but still shows error message. what did I miss?
2020-03-15T10:26:50Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/BGOK2
2020-03-15T10:27:52Z no-defun-allowed: I can't tell, you have )s floating in mid air.
2020-03-15T10:31:26Z no-defun-allowed: And I didn't get an error evaluating the form you claim signals an error.
2020-03-15T10:34:07Z no-defun-allowed: tourjin: Do you need to use FFI to do this?
2020-03-15T10:36:05Z no-defun-allowed: You can probably do that with (directory (make-pathname :directory directory-name :name :wild :type :wild))
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2020-03-15T10:41:50Z tourjin: ;   printed 3 notes
2020-03-15T10:42:24Z no-defun-allowed: What notes?
2020-03-15T10:43:28Z tourjin: anyway somehow i can get file lists.
2020-03-15T10:44:14Z tourjin: https://bpaste.net/VZDGM
2020-03-15T10:44:27Z tourjin: those messages.
2020-03-15T10:45:46Z no-defun-allowed: Do you need to use SB-ALIEN and SB-POSIX to get a directory listing?
2020-03-15T10:46:34Z no-defun-allowed: I don't believe you touch SB-GROVEL at all, either.
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2020-03-15T10:48:01Z Shinmera: Is this an alt of that other dude that just tried to do things with FFI for no reason without knowing any lisp at all and never took advice either
2020-03-15T10:55:23Z no-defun-allowed: tourjin: Stop sending me private messages.
2020-03-15T10:55:48Z tourjin: i see. sorry for that.
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2020-03-15T11:43:50Z tourjin: shinmera i saw  the advice from no-defun-allowed introduced me.  I get file list with directory function thank you all guys.
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2020-03-15T18:07:23Z HiRE: hello
2020-03-15T18:07:52Z oni-on-ion: hi =)
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2020-03-15T18:25:08Z equwal: high
2020-03-15T18:25:17Z equwal: :-)
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2020-03-15T18:27:04Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2020-03-15T18:44:09Z HiRE: I wish I could live in emacs but I could never get the irc thing to work well enogh for me
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2020-03-15T18:44:31Z HiRE: also shoving passwords into a git repo feels bad
2020-03-15T18:44:48Z HiRE: (I store my configs in a git repo for ez reconfig - I reinstall my OS like 6 times a year)
2020-03-15T18:45:21Z MichaelRaskin: You could put there code to load the password from some encrypted FS
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2020-03-15T18:45:48Z HiRE: I was thinking that or doing something like `private.el` and loading that. Then just (setq irc-password xyz) or whatever from there.
2020-03-15T18:46:02Z HiRE: the encrypted FS sounds better though
2020-03-15T18:46:07Z HiRE: how would I go about doing that
2020-03-15T18:46:34Z Shinmera: However you would, it's definitely off topic.
2020-03-15T18:46:44Z HiRE: I figured emacs and lisp are friendly
2020-03-15T18:46:46Z HiRE: lol
2020-03-15T18:46:58Z HiRE: oh well
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2020-03-15T19:02:27Z equwal: Go to #emacs, they like emacs there I've heard
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2020-03-15T19:26:49Z aeth: ##lisp has a looser topic, this channel is Common Lisp
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2020-03-15T21:41:36Z grumpyvegetable: Does CL have a help menu embedded in the interpreter like Python does?
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2020-03-15T21:43:07Z aeth: CL uses DESCRIBE for interactive help, but the quality of DESCRIBE for the built-ins depends on the implementation and is fairly poor outside of the commercial implementations afaik. Generally, people use the HyperSpec or some processed form of the HyperSpec to be embedded into your IDE. Some implementations even launch the HyperSpec when you do DESCRIBE on a built-in.
2020-03-15T21:43:12Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
2020-03-15T21:44:05Z aeth: Note that that is a very early webpage that has basically only been updated once since its 1996 launch, to remove the colored background and change the icons from purple to light blue. It's a very dated webpage.
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2020-03-15T23:44:06Z ldb: aeth: I suspect grumpyvegetable means :help in CCL or :h in CLISP
2020-03-15T23:45:17Z aeth: ah
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2020-03-15T23:48:23Z ldb: Can the link to HyperSpec in CLISP patched to use a local copy instead?
2020-03-15T23:50:22Z grumpyvegetable: I mean like how you can type help() at a python terminal and pretty much learn whatever you need to know
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2020-03-16T00:03:32Z nationalist_devl: anyone doing big data anlytics with lisp?
2020-03-16T00:05:24Z aeth: these are probably most likely to be "secret" Lisp projects, rather then publicized ones
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2020-03-16T00:06:19Z aeth: grumpyvegetable, ldb: okay, then that is a lot like DESCRIBE except if DESCRIBE locked you into a mode
2020-03-16T00:07:03Z aeth: well, help() itself locks you into a mode where you just type "str", but help(str) just describes the string class (that was its example) at the REPL
2020-03-16T00:07:27Z aeth: grumpyvegetable: If it's just generated from docstrings, then it's very similar to CL's describe, which is also a language with docstrings
2020-03-16T00:07:32Z aeth: Afaik, Python basically took the docstrings from CL
2020-03-16T00:08:16Z aeth: DESCRIBE on built-ins isn't very good. Someone needs to write some high-quality, public domain documentation that every implementation can just use for those IMO.
2020-03-16T00:08:30Z aeth: Some libraries might have comparable-to-Python's-help() levels of detail, though
2020-03-16T00:08:40Z Bike: shouldn't it be documentation rather than describe
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2020-03-16T00:19:51Z HiRE: I wonder how well CL would run a rpi 4 b+
2020-03-16T00:19:53Z HiRE: I have one sitting here
2020-03-16T00:19:56Z HiRE: doing nothing
2020-03-16T00:20:20Z HiRE: deployed one for a pihole, I should make this one into a home automation thing
2020-03-16T00:20:50Z aeth: Well, implementations are most full featured on x86-64, like most niche languages whose niches don't include mobile apps.
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2020-03-16T00:21:11Z aeth: So you might have some issues on ARM, although ARM64 will probably avoid some of those
2020-03-16T00:21:18Z HiRE: pi 4b+ is arm 64
2020-03-16T00:21:24Z HiRE: seems SBCL has an older compiler available.
2020-03-16T00:21:27Z HiRE: 1.4.2
2020-03-16T00:21:36Z aeth: iirc, the default OS itself for Pi's is still 32-bit
2020-03-16T00:21:43Z HiRE: oh thats crap
2020-03-16T00:21:47Z HiRE: I'll need to look into that
2020-03-16T00:22:18Z aeth: A lot of people in the C world have the attitude that if it's not addressing > 4 GB RAM, then 32-bit is OK... but in the CL world, 64-bit has advantages that don't really matter to C programmers, like fewer tagged types
2020-03-16T00:22:49Z HiRE: could you elaborate? This is something I've never had to consider.
2020-03-16T00:22:56Z HiRE: I mean I understand the C argument
2020-03-16T00:23:00Z HiRE: but fewer tagged types im not following
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2020-03-16T00:23:27Z p_l: HiRE: it's perfectly possible to run 64bit on Pi, it's just that Raspbian is 32bit as it wants to keep compatibility with first two versions
2020-03-16T00:23:37Z aeth: In the typical CL implementation, types are tagged. That is, if they don't fit in a word with the type tag included, then they have to be heap allocated even when they wouldn't be in a fully-static language like C. This is "boxing", a term originally from Java iirc.
2020-03-16T00:23:59Z HiRE: oh tagged types are like boxing - makes sense. If it doesnt fit tag it and heap allocate it that way we know what it is.
2020-03-16T00:24:06Z aeth: A 32-bit implementation boxes single-floats. A 64-bit implementation only boxes double-floats.
2020-03-16T00:24:10Z p_l: HiRE: it's easier to fit more tags while keeping usable data when your word size is 64bit than 32bit
2020-03-16T00:24:39Z HiRE: interesting...I thought floats would fit in a 32 bit register
2020-03-16T00:24:48Z HiRE: I guess you have arbitrary precision to worry about
2020-03-16T00:25:04Z Bike: the point is that tags mean you only have, say, 30 bits to work with
2020-03-16T00:25:10Z Bike: so obviously you can't fit a 32 bit float in there
2020-03-16T00:25:13Z aeth: 64-bit SBCL (at least on x86-64) uses 1 bit to tag a fixnum so its non-bignum integers can express 63 bit signed bytes or 62 bit unsigned bytes. This is the theoretical maximum of expressiveness for this implementation approach. For 32-bit, the maximum is 30-bit unsigned and 31-bit signed, but even SBCL doesn't do this.
2020-03-16T00:25:19Z HiRE: ah yes, you need a few bits for the tag.
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2020-03-16T00:25:40Z aeth: So when you're losing like 4-5 bits, it suddenly matters a lot... 32-bit implementations have tiny fixnums
2020-03-16T00:25:51Z HiRE: What would be the need for SBCL to use such a large tag in 32 bit?
2020-03-16T00:26:03Z aeth: And limits of everything are usually expressed in unsigned (the top half of) fixnums, e.g. array lengths, etc...
2020-03-16T00:26:42Z aeth: HiRE: I'm guessing that 32-bit is considered "legacy" (since SBCL is x86-first) so they just never bothered to optimize the tag bit to 1 like in 64-bit, but I'm not sure if there's a more serious blocker.
2020-03-16T00:27:17Z aeth: even still, (- (expt 2 30) 1) is tiny while (- (expt 2 62) 1) is probably good enough for most people
2020-03-16T00:27:30Z HiRE: yeah the other thing I am contending with is I probably wont need arbitrary precision
2020-03-16T00:27:37Z HiRE: my use would be something dumb like automating watering my garden
2020-03-16T00:27:52Z aeth: Oh, and since the limits of things depend on fixnums, you can't fill 4 GB of RAM in one array, since arrays have limits.
2020-03-16T00:27:57Z aeth: You'd probably need 4+ arrays
2020-03-16T00:28:03Z HiRE: CL would be nice because I could just create a DSL for watering plants and modify it on the fly.
2020-03-16T00:28:08Z p_l: HiRE: Common Lisp implementations using tagged 32bit words is why X11 IDs are 29 bit
2020-03-16T00:28:59Z HiRE: this is interesting. Im sure that is in the grimoire of SBCL somewhere
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2020-03-16T00:30:30Z p_l: more X11. At the time when such a decision was made, I think the latest was CMUCL, then-recently renamed from SPICE Lisp
2020-03-16T00:32:41Z HiRE: and SBCL is a direct decendent of CMUCL right
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2020-03-16T00:37:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
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2020-03-16T02:32:36Z HiRE: https://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html
2020-03-16T02:32:42Z HiRE: 2 articles on CL on hacker news today
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2020-03-16T03:36:32Z oni-on-ion: ohhh
2020-03-16T03:36:55Z oni-on-ion: my favorite is "lisp, jazz, aikido"
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2020-03-16T04:22:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-16T04:35:24Z HiRE: morning beach
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2020-03-16T04:37:26Z beach: HiRE: A friend of mine says he always installs Ubuntu on the Raspberry Pi.
2020-03-16T04:38:38Z HiRE: Isnt raspian just a *buntu?
2020-03-16T04:39:08Z beach: I am afraid I don't know.  He meant 64-bit Ubuntu though.
2020-03-16T04:41:39Z HiRE: ah yes I will have to try it
2020-03-16T04:41:57Z HiRE: I thought it would be a fun more simple project to try to automate something in my house before departing on a long journey to writing a library
2020-03-16T04:42:03Z HiRE: especially since I have the hardware sitting here doing nothing
2020-03-16T04:45:25Z beach: I had hoped the ARM architecture would be much simpler than that of x86-64, in which case I would have written a code generator for SICL, targeting the ARM, but I got discouraged reading the ARM documentation.
2020-03-16T04:51:42Z HiRE: ARM is MIPS right?
2020-03-16T04:51:43Z no-defun-allowed: Raspbian is based off Debian.
2020-03-16T04:51:54Z no-defun-allowed: It also diverges enough that Debian packages are unlikely to work on Raspbian.
2020-03-16T04:51:57Z beach: HiRE: I don't think so.
2020-03-16T04:52:07Z no-defun-allowed: No, ARM is a separate architecture. Do you mean RISC?
2020-03-16T04:52:19Z HiRE: In my compiler classes I never got to code generation implementation. By the time I hit grad school I was off in mathy computational geometry land :)
2020-03-16T04:52:22Z HiRE: RISC*
2020-03-16T04:52:23Z HiRE: yes
2020-03-16T04:52:24Z HiRE: sorry
2020-03-16T04:52:38Z no-defun-allowed: I'm sure there's less instructions than x86_64, but there's still quite many.
2020-03-16T04:52:57Z HiRE: would explain why SBCL hasnt updated their ARM64/ARM ports in a long time
2020-03-16T04:53:02Z beach: no-defun-allowed: "fewer".  Less stuff, fewer things.
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2020-03-16T04:53:03Z HiRE: perhaps its just significantly more difficult
2020-03-16T04:53:18Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Thanks, good point.
2020-03-16T04:53:57Z HiRE: I did some RISC work in my architecture classes and while it was contrived I found the assembly more pleasurable to write
2020-03-16T04:54:14Z HiRE: optimization however, is probably another thing entirely.
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2020-03-16T04:54:47Z beach: From reading the documentation, I believe the ARM just barely qualifies as RISC.
2020-03-16T04:55:29Z beach: Add to that the multiple encoding schemes for the instructions.
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2020-03-16T05:27:46Z nationalist_devl: sounds risky
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2020-03-16T13:29:25Z alfonsox: hi all
2020-03-16T13:29:42Z alfonsox: how do you guys convert string to float ?
2020-03-16T13:30:11Z flip214: alfonsox: there's a library called PARSE-FLOAT, available via quicklisp
2020-03-16T13:30:16Z MichaelRaskin: There is parse-number library
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2020-03-16T13:31:25Z MichaelRaskin: Oh, didn't know parse-float exists
2020-03-16T13:31:53Z alfonsox: common-lisp, emacs, slime
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2020-03-16T13:32:00Z alfonsox: can't find parse-float
2020-03-16T13:33:07Z alfonsox: I created simple program to calculate simple-interest
2020-03-16T13:33:19Z MichaelRaskin: https://github.com/soemraws/parse-float I guess
2020-03-16T13:33:50Z alfonsox: (defun calculate-interest (principle rate year)
2020-03-16T13:33:52Z alfonsox:   (/ (* principle rate year) 100))
2020-03-16T13:34:09Z alfonsox: and save it in simple-interest.lisp
2020-03-16T13:34:27Z alfonsox: using buildapp i have created native executable
2020-03-16T13:34:57Z alfonsox: when i tried to run programm like this
2020-03-16T13:35:01Z splittist: principal
2020-03-16T13:35:11Z alfonsox: $ ./simpleinterest 1000 15.0 1
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2020-03-16T13:36:04Z alfonsox: oops sorry for type
2020-03-16T13:36:07Z alfonsox: error
2020-03-16T13:36:36Z alfonsox: (CALCULATE-INTEREST ("./simpleinterest" "1000" "15" "1")) [external]
2020-03-16T13:36:51Z alfonsox: I think it may be treaing values as string
2020-03-16T13:38:58Z MichaelRaskin: It definitely is
2020-03-16T13:39:36Z MichaelRaskin: And it also gives you argument 0, how the program name was specified
2020-03-16T13:41:09Z splittist: alfonsox: what does your MAIN function look like? What does it do to ARGV? Are you doing this to explore building command-line apps, or common lisp?
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2020-03-16T13:42:10Z alfonsox: command line apps
2020-03-16T13:42:22Z alfonsox: buildapp --load ../fun/simple-interest.lisp --entry calculate-interest --output simpleinterest
2020-03-16T13:42:31Z alfonsox: it has created a binary file with name
2020-03-16T13:42:50Z alfonsox: simple-interest
2020-03-16T13:42:59Z alfonsox: ./simpleinterest 1000 15 1
2020-03-16T13:44:37Z alfonsox: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a3c650c6/
2020-03-16T13:44:53Z alfonsox: I can run programm inside slime
2020-03-16T13:45:00Z splittist: right. Knowing nothing about buildapp, I imagine it is going to arrange to call your entry function with a list of strings, being the command-line arguments the executable was called with (including the name of the executable as the first element of the list). CALCULATE-INTEREST, however, does not accept such a list.
2020-03-16T13:46:00Z alfonsox: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/5ce418f9/
2020-03-16T13:46:10Z alfonsox: this is the complete error i am getting
2020-03-16T13:46:42Z alfonsox: How do you guys created executable file using common lisp?
2020-03-16T13:46:58Z alfonsox: I am following this > https://www.cliki.net/Creating%20Executables
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2020-03-16T13:47:25Z splittist: It is your responsibility as the application writer to give meaning to that list of strings. Looking at the buildapp web page, this seems correct. (This is also how every other language does things, as far as I know.)
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2020-03-16T13:52:39Z phoe: alfonsox: I usually use Shinmera's deploy, https://github.com/Shinmera/deploy
2020-03-16T13:53:01Z phoe: You are running into type errors - the Unix shell passes arguments as strings, and you need to turn them into numbers if you want numbers
2020-03-16T13:53:27Z phoe: use the standard function PARSE-INTEGER if you want to get an integer from a string
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2020-03-16T13:55:00Z alfonsox: ok
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2020-03-16T14:04:51Z phoe: also, this kind of sounds like #clschool material
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2020-03-16T16:55:08Z jmercouris: does this cffi look correct: (defcfun newQApplication :pointer) for this signature: void* newQApplication(int argc, char** argv); ?
2020-03-16T16:55:44Z jmercouris: because I keep getting: The alien function "newqapplication" is undefined.
2020-03-16T16:58:32Z Bike: don't you need to give it the argument types?
2020-03-16T16:59:09Z Bike: for example the documentation gives (defcfun "strlen" :int (n :string))
2020-03-16T16:59:09Z _death: you also need to use the right case
2020-03-16T16:59:17Z jmercouris: there are no arguments
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2020-03-16T16:59:30Z Bike: ...what are argc and argv?
2020-03-16T16:59:32Z jmercouris: do I have to therefore do something like |newQApplication|?
2020-03-16T16:59:39Z jmercouris: ah, damnit, how did I miss that
2020-03-16T16:59:46Z jmercouris: I'm sorry, I changed the prototype and forgot about that
2020-03-16T16:59:49Z jmercouris: thank you for spotting it
2020-03-16T17:00:03Z Bike: i think you wrould write ("newQApplication" new-q-application) for the name
2020-03-16T17:00:04Z jmercouris: it used to accept no arguments
2020-03-16T17:00:29Z jmercouris: Bike: I will do that, I prefer that form
2020-03-16T17:00:50Z Bike: or new-qapplication or however you want to refer to it in lisp
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2020-03-17T02:30:31Z ldb: it seems that i want a log file system in CL
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2020-03-17T03:00:00Z Josh_2: should be easy enough LdBeth
2020-03-17T03:00:01Z Josh_2: oops
2020-03-17T03:00:10Z Josh_2: sorry wrong ping :P
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2020-03-17T03:30:09Z ldb: Josh_2: it's ok since we're the same person
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2020-03-17T03:38:36Z Josh_2: *thumbs up*
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2020-03-17T05:15:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-17T05:18:43Z Josh_2: Mornin beach
2020-03-17T05:19:09Z edgar-rft: beach: At the risk of disappointing you I must say that not everyone is on irc and not everyone on itc has joined #lisp, so the chances to reach everyone with your message are rather low.
2020-03-17T05:21:06Z beach: edgar-rft: Noted.  Thanks.
2020-03-17T05:21:58Z buffergn0me: beach's good mornings are the best part of lurking in #lisp
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2020-03-17T05:22:53Z Josh_2: if they haven't joined #lisp what is the point of being on IRC
2020-03-17T05:23:57Z holycow: what are we talking about? what is itc
2020-03-17T05:23:58Z holycow: ?
2020-03-17T05:24:17Z edgar-rft: itc is a typo :-)
2020-03-17T05:24:27Z holycow: ah
2020-03-17T05:25:25Z edgar-rft: a holy typo for holycow
2020-03-17T05:30:17Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what does ITC stand for?
2020-03-17T05:30:18Z minion: Interassure Tirl Creasing
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2020-03-17T07:56:08Z isBEKaml: what's IRC?
2020-03-17T07:57:18Z no-defun-allowed: minion: what does IRC stand for?
2020-03-17T07:57:18Z minion: Idoneity Rejuvenation Constableship
2020-03-17T07:57:33Z aeth: This is IRC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1459
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2020-03-17T08:05:29Z pjb: isBEKaml: http://cliki.net/IRC
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2020-03-17T08:19:48Z isBEKaml: pjb: that was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek
2020-03-17T08:20:25Z isBEKaml: "Idoneity Rejuvenation Constableship" -- I like this
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2020-03-17T08:24:19Z eivindst: Hi. I'm having some problems with values of 2-dimensional arrays not getting updated and returning the arrays from within (let ...) returns nil. Could someone take a look? The code is here: https://bin.privacytools.io/?3f6bd7b335f30236#xR2/XDCh8rRvhSbTBGZLyCz9GpxCJUr5OHAj5jnRi88=
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2020-03-17T08:25:50Z eivindst: In Common Lisp by the way.
2020-03-17T08:26:29Z phoe: that last m-v-b has no body
2020-03-17T08:26:37Z phoe: so obviously it returns NIL
2020-03-17T08:26:59Z eivindst: Could you explain? I'm new to Lisp in general.
2020-03-17T08:27:08Z phoe: multiple-value-bind binds new variables for you
2020-03-17T08:27:15Z phoe: but then you need to do something with these variables
2020-03-17T08:27:36Z eivindst: Ah of course. Forgot about that.
2020-03-17T08:27:40Z no-defun-allowed: What are you trying to do with MATRIX-CHAIN-ORDER in the bottom line?
2020-03-17T08:27:57Z phoe: replace that last form with (matrix-chain-order '(30 35 15 5 10 20 25))
2020-03-17T08:28:09Z phoe: and you'll get whatever the function returns
2020-03-17T08:28:10Z no-defun-allowed: If you just want to return those two values, you don't need to wrap anything around the function call, as phoe says.
2020-03-17T08:29:18Z eivindst: Right. I'm supposed to process it further, just forgot to add that part. I thought the actual function returned nil.
2020-03-17T08:29:34Z phoe: it doesn't
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2020-03-17T08:29:40Z phoe: it returns (values m s)
2020-03-17T08:30:10Z eivindst: Also, it seems that the 'm' and 's' values are never updated in the last progn in the function. Likely because of my if statement being wrong?
2020-03-17T08:30:29Z phoe: updated? what do you mean?
2020-03-17T08:30:41Z phoe: I see some SETF AREF M and SETF AREF S in the code
2020-03-17T08:30:48Z eivindst: Hmm, when I print the result, it's all either "inf" or 0.
2020-03-17T08:31:01Z phoe: this means that the places inside that array are modified someplace in that code
2020-03-17T08:31:03Z phoe: hm
2020-03-17T08:31:12Z aeth: Most Lisp implementations actually have 2-4 infinities, if you don't need the type to be an integer. https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp
2020-03-17T08:31:17Z phoe: if that happens, then that's a question whether your algorithm is doing the correct thing
2020-03-17T08:32:06Z eivindst: Yea... Trying to implement some algorithms from my algorithms course, but some of them are a pain in the back.
2020-03-17T08:32:19Z eivindst: But as far as Lisp is concerned it looks OK?
2020-03-17T08:33:08Z eivindst: In the final if-statement, I'm updating 'q' and when it evaluates it should return the new value, whichis compared to m[i,j].
2020-03-17T08:34:24Z phoe: the return value of that last statement is ignored
2020-03-17T08:34:36Z phoe: ooh, you mean that
2020-03-17T08:34:42Z eivindst: aeth: Thanks for the reference btw. For small projects like this I prefer to not have external dependencies, and also, its only integers in this case.
2020-03-17T08:34:48Z eivindst: aeth: Thanks for the reference btw. For small projects like this I prefer to not have external dependencies, and also, its only integers in this case.q
2020-03-17T08:34:50Z phoe: yes, (setf q ...) updates q and returns the new value
2020-03-17T08:34:52Z eivindst: Oops
2020-03-17T08:36:49Z eivindst: Thanks for the help. There might be some off-by-1 errors as the reference algorithm has indexing from 1 to n... Will keep looking at it.
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2020-03-17T09:18:47Z eivindst: In case someone is interested I fixed the algorithm I had trouble with earlier (several off-by-1 errors...). Here is the result https://bin.privacytools.io/?7a9f5fcd44c8bbaa#72IiFHeNtK/vypw7gXfpIgTlYAynpXHzdc3iqVJOQvo=
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2020-03-17T09:31:59Z beach: eivindst: Would you like remarks on that code?
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2020-03-17T10:14:34Z eivindst: beach: Sorry for the late response. I would appreciate remarks. I'm a bit busy for the next ~45 min. but if you would leave some remarks or discuss at that time I would be grateful.
2020-03-17T10:15:21Z beach: OK.
2020-03-17T10:15:26Z beach: The DO LOOP keyword has an implicit PROGN, so you don't need that PROGN.
2020-03-17T10:15:31Z beach: You should put LOOP keywords first on a line.  And you then need the slime-indentation contribution to get the indentation right.
2020-03-17T10:15:38Z beach: If you have an IF without an `else' branch, it is better to use WHEN.  That way you don't need the PROGN either.
2020-03-17T10:15:42Z beach: Instead of doing (loop for l from 1 to (1- n)...) it is better to do (loop for l from 1 below n...).  Same for (loop for k from i to (1- j)...).
2020-03-17T10:15:44Z beach: For global constants, it is conventional to surround the name with +, so +inf+ instead of just inf.
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2020-03-17T10:17:53Z eivindst: Thanks for the feedback! Will do as you say. Is there a "style guide" somewhere I should follow for conventions?
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2020-03-17T10:21:38Z beach: The google style guide is fairly complete.
2020-03-17T10:22:16Z beach: You also have the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.  (You can google that.  I don't remember the link by heart)
2020-03-17T10:22:33Z eivindst: Thanks. I will check it out.
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2020-03-17T10:31:30Z even4void: Check out the CL cookbook (the LUV slides are listed near the end of the homepage): https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/.
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2020-03-17T16:40:55Z jmercouris: I have some code that works on Linux, but does not work on macOS, how do I begin debugging it? http://dpaste.com/2RPR85M
2020-03-17T16:41:08Z jmercouris: it is *always* the exact same stack trade
2020-03-17T16:41:10Z jmercouris: trace*
2020-03-17T16:42:03Z jmercouris: source is here: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webengine for those interested
2020-03-17T16:42:13Z jmercouris: in case it is not clear, this is CFFI
2020-03-17T16:42:19Z jmercouris: the exact same code in C works just fine
2020-03-17T16:43:32Z jackdaniel: I did some hacking to render CLIM onto html5 canvas: https://imgur.com/8ynyukJ.png (bottom drawing is x11 window)
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2020-03-17T16:45:06Z phoe: jmercouris: https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro/issues/8
2020-03-17T16:45:19Z phoe: a similar solution will work for you
2020-03-17T16:45:26Z phoe: tl;dr mask the floating point errors
2020-03-17T16:45:35Z jackdaniel: what's left is to have connection the other way around via websocket and we'll have super-slow and buggy McCLIM backend, yay! :-)
2020-03-17T16:46:17Z jmercouris: phoe: I'll try, thank you
2020-03-17T16:46:49Z beach: jackdaniel: Wow, nice!
2020-03-17T16:47:23Z jackdaniel: thanks
2020-03-17T16:48:04Z phoe: jackdaniel: woah, that's amazing stuff!
2020-03-17T16:48:05Z jackdaniel: work from yesterday evening and today afternoon continuation
2020-03-17T16:49:11Z jackdaniel: I know that McCLIM has many other (and more important) things to work on, but this seems to be fun. html5 canvas api maps to mcclim drawing almost seamlessly
2020-03-17T16:49:16Z Xach: jackdaniel: very cool, i have been trying to do something slightly similar - decoupled backends/frontends for vecto. i want to do websocket<->browser interaction locally too.
2020-03-17T16:49:50Z Xach: one lisp program that outputs html canvas, svg, pdf, png, etc. without changes
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2020-03-17T16:50:19Z jackdaniel: right, that's what I'd like to have mcclim doing for output-only backends (and interaction for others)
2020-03-17T16:50:36Z jackdaniel: I have semi-working console backend for vt100 terminal (without ncourses, only via sgt extensions)
2020-03-17T16:52:12Z jmercouris: phoe: you are a life saver
2020-03-17T16:52:18Z jmercouris: weeks, and weeks of wondering why this is crashing
2020-03-17T16:52:48Z jmercouris: phoe: I owe you a million pomelos
2020-03-17T16:53:09Z jackdaniel: Xach: is there a repository or it is still in too early phase?
2020-03-17T16:53:46Z jackdaniel: the little one attacks me and the workstation :)
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2020-03-17T16:56:00Z Xach: jackdaniel: nothing published yet, just some proofs of concept
2020-03-17T16:56:09Z Bike: maybe we should get whoever's in charge of the cffi manual to mention float traps, if they haven't already
2020-03-17T16:56:37Z Xach: jackdaniel: i had a thing where it sends arrays of floats that encode the operations, and a js shim that interprets the ops
2020-03-17T16:56:59Z Xach: like [1.0, 50.0, 50.0] is (move-to 50 50)
2020-03-17T16:57:06Z Xach: i don't know if that's worth the trouble
2020-03-17T16:57:56Z phoe: minion: bank: jmercouris owes me 1000000 pomelos
2020-03-17T16:57:58Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2020-03-17T16:58:41Z phoe: Xach: curious question, why not strings that denote ops?
2020-03-17T16:58:42Z jackdaniel: binary encoding makes sense if there is a lot of data going through the network
2020-03-17T16:58:55Z Xach: phoe: i thought it might be smaller.
2020-03-17T16:59:16Z Xach: and faster indexing into the function array
2020-03-17T16:59:21Z Xach: i don't know if that's true or not
2020-03-17T16:59:34Z jackdaniel: wouldn't integers be better suited for opcodes?
2020-03-17T16:59:38Z phoe: Xach: if you're very worried about bandwidth, I think you shouldn't use JSON through the web, but rather a binary format over WebSockets of some sort
2020-03-17T16:59:47Z scymtym: jackdaniel: the broadway backend has all that. the only difference is that it currently rasterizes on the server side
2020-03-17T17:00:07Z Xach: jackdaniel: js doesn't have integers...
2020-03-17T17:00:31Z jmercouris: I believe there is an object for integers
2020-03-17T17:00:34Z Xach: phoe: websockets is the idea.
2020-03-17T17:00:35Z jackdaniel: ah, what a wonderful language
2020-03-17T17:00:54Z jmercouris: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Number
2020-03-17T17:02:10Z Xach: jmercouris: what position do you feel that supports?
2020-03-17T17:02:14Z jackdaniel: scymtym: I know, this hack is more a self-amusement whim tahn a competition
2020-03-17T17:02:19Z jackdaniel: than*
2020-03-17T17:02:19Z scymtym: Xach: the gtk people made a websocket-based bi-directional mechanism for this. the server side is implemented in the experimental McCLIM broadway backend
2020-03-17T17:02:38Z Xach: what is broadway?
2020-03-17T17:02:46Z jmercouris: broadway is a place in new york
2020-03-17T17:02:53Z scymtym: broadway = displaying gtk applications in the browser
2020-03-17T17:02:56Z jackdaniel: how clever!
2020-03-17T17:02:58Z Xach: scymtym: cool
2020-03-17T17:03:07Z jmercouris: see here for more disambiguation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway
2020-03-17T17:03:45Z jmercouris: it actually is on that page!
2020-03-17T17:04:39Z jmercouris: Xach: what do you mean about position that it supports?
2020-03-17T17:04:51Z Xach: scymtym: do you feel like https://github.com/s-expressionists/Trucler/ is a good thing to add to quicklisp? someone asked for it
2020-03-17T17:04:51Z scymtym: Xach: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-broadway-7.ogv . the last (non-current) version i pushed is https://github.com/scymtym/McCLIM/tree/wip-broadway/Backends/Broadway
2020-03-17T17:04:54Z jmercouris: Xach: what is the max value of an integer? it depends on the JS implementation actually, I was looking at this some time ago
2020-03-17T17:05:06Z jmercouris: Xach: I don't believe it is in the specification or something
2020-03-17T17:05:19Z Xach: jmercouris: i said js does not have integers. you said it does. do you think the link supports your position, or mine?
2020-03-17T17:05:32Z jmercouris: I didn't say that it has integers
2020-03-17T17:05:36Z jmercouris: I said "there is an object for integers"
2020-03-17T17:05:38Z scymtym: Xach: eventually sure. better ask heisig or beach about the right time, though
2020-03-17T17:06:03Z Xach: jmercouris: do you think that link supports the position that there is "an object for integers"?
2020-03-17T17:06:05Z jmercouris: either way, I'm not one of the people who argues to "win"
2020-03-17T17:06:14Z jmercouris: well yeah, you make a number object
2020-03-17T17:06:20Z Xach: or even, apparently, to reveal "facts" or "correctness"
2020-03-17T17:06:22Z jmercouris: and then you can invoke "isInteger" or whatever it is called
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2020-03-17T17:06:54Z Xach: check out https://tc39.es/ecma262/#sec-ecmascript-language-types-number-type
2020-03-17T17:07:12Z jmercouris: I really don't care
2020-03-17T17:07:23Z Xach: Please don't jump in with nonsense, then.
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2020-03-17T17:07:30Z jmercouris: I didn't say anything false
2020-03-17T17:07:51Z Xach: You did, but I'm glad you don't care and won't try to argue otherwise.
2020-03-17T17:08:10Z jmercouris: Except that I didn't, there is an object for integers
2020-03-17T17:09:12Z fe[nl]ix: we can all agree that Javascript is awful, and move on
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2020-03-17T17:10:54Z Xach: beach: what do you think about making Trucler available via quicklisp? someone asked me to add it for the next release, but I realized somewhat late they are not one of the authors.
2020-03-17T17:12:02Z Xach: I know that the license allows it, so I am asking about your preferences, not my freedom to do it.
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2020-03-17T17:17:21Z beach: Xach: It might be a bit premature.  Let me check with heisig to see what he thinks.
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2020-03-17T17:28:26Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i think both implementations (i.e. rasterized and vector-based) are worth exploring. i just wanted to point out that some shareable infrastructure is already there
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2020-03-17T17:34:39Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: impressive work!
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2020-03-17T18:44:07Z eschulte: I have a CFFI problem in which dynamically allocated memory returned by a wrapped C function can't later be accessed from lisp without throwing a memory violation.  (The equivalent C implementation works fine.)  Any suggestions, or is this an "on my own as its probably related to specifics of the C code" type of situation?  The code is up here
2020-03-17T18:44:08Z eschulte: FWIW: https://github.com/eschulte/cl-capstone
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2020-03-17T18:47:15Z phoe: eschulte: dynamically allocated memory? you mean allocated by Lisp?
2020-03-17T18:47:28Z phoe: by malloc?
2020-03-17T18:47:35Z Bike: foreign-alloc, it says
2020-03-17T18:47:42Z phoe: ooh
2020-03-17T18:47:49Z phoe: then sounds like something frees that memory
2020-03-17T18:47:51Z eschulte: By malloc inside of one of the hooked C functions (I believe `cs-open` in the example)
2020-03-17T18:48:04Z phoe: figure out what frees it, and you'll be done
2020-03-17T18:48:51Z eschulte: Okay.  I'm guessing something on the lisp side, any suggestions for things to trace?
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2020-03-17T18:53:11Z _death: eschulte: your code assumes that size_t is the same as unsigned int, but that needs not be the case (and is not, on x64)
2020-03-17T18:54:19Z _death: eschulte: you can use the groveller to define a proper size-t type (annoying, I know)
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2020-03-17T18:55:09Z eschulte: _death: Ah, okay, thanks.  I'll do that
2020-03-17T18:56:05Z _death: also, capstone assumes that size_t can store a pointer (what uintptr_t is for).. it is the case on the platforms they care about, I guess, but needs not be the case
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2020-03-17T18:59:40Z _death: it reminds me that a while ago I modified one of your libraries (the elf one, I think) to use capstone for something
2020-03-17T19:01:27Z eschulte: Oh, cool.  If you have a pointer I'd be very interested to see it.
2020-03-17T19:02:01Z _death fishes it out of his laptop
2020-03-17T19:06:39Z _death: well, here are the two patches: https://gist.github.com/death/d676d769e0a3f48a39ce20d5904beb5a feel free to salvage any code deemed worthy
2020-03-17T19:07:40Z eschulte: Thanks, I'll take a look.
2020-03-17T19:08:39Z eschulte: Also, changing the type of the `capstone-handle` ctype from size_t to pointer seems to have solved my memory error, so thanks for that too!
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2020-03-17T19:09:29Z _death: ;)
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2020-03-17T19:11:48Z eschulte: Oh, I should just be using sb-capstone. That's what I get for giving up my package search after (ql:system-apropos "capstone") returned nothing
2020-03-17T19:13:03Z _death: eschulte: personally I think cffi bindings is a worthy project.. when they made that contrib the reason for it puzzled me, and I think I asked on #sbcl but they gave no reason
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2020-03-17T19:49:34Z fouric: Shinmera: do you have a few minutes to sell me on why i should use alloy instead of clim
2020-03-17T19:50:24Z Shinmera: You should use Alloy if you need something that works in an OpenGL context and is Lisp native.
2020-03-17T19:51:08Z Shinmera: OR: you should use Alloy if you want to hack and contribute on a new UI toolkit that is open to reconsidering existing paradigms.
2020-03-17T19:51:33Z Shinmera: If those do not apply I cannot in good conscience recommend it because it is still much too young.
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2020-03-17T19:51:52Z Shinmera: I would absolutely love to have some collaborators for it though.
2020-03-17T19:51:54Z fouric: interesting. why "and is lisp native"? my projects definitely are, but i thought that clim was a prime example of something that was lisp-native
2020-03-17T19:52:10Z fouric: (that is, i read your "and lise native" as implying that clim is less so)
2020-03-17T19:52:34Z Shinmera: Yes but CLIM does not do OpenGL (currently)
2020-03-17T19:52:39Z fouric: aha, gotcha
2020-03-17T19:52:41Z fouric: hmmm
2020-03-17T19:52:42Z Shinmera: There are other non-lisp native things that do OpenGL
2020-03-17T19:52:51Z Shinmera: So Alloy is currently the only thing that does both of those :)
2020-03-17T19:53:10Z fouric: if i want something that has both opengl and software rendering backends, is either clim or alloy definitely best for that?
2020-03-17T19:53:19Z fouric: oh, i think you implied that allow requires opengl
2020-03-17T19:53:30Z Shinmera: No, Alloy is backend-independent
2020-03-17T19:53:34Z fouric: aha, alright
2020-03-17T19:53:42Z Shinmera: There's currently just only an OpenGL one because I have only so much time.
2020-03-17T19:55:28Z fouric: makes sense
2020-03-17T19:56:03Z fouric: and, is there potential for alloy to offer run-time introspection of widgets? that is, i'm specifically looking for a framework that will allow me to implement "jump to definition" but for widgets instead of code
2020-03-17T19:56:38Z fouric: and hotpatching, so that i can modify said widgets
2020-03-17T19:56:54Z fouric: (i don't think that this is possible in gtk, for example)
2020-03-17T19:56:56Z Shinmera: Alloy is deeply based on CLOS, so I don't see why not.
2020-03-17T19:59:00Z fouric: alright, that's enough for me to start trying to consume the documentation
2020-03-17T19:59:21Z Shinmera: Don't hesitate to stop by #shirakumo and ask me questions directly
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2020-03-17T20:01:11Z fouric: alright! no guarantees that i'll actually do anything, though, because i'm the stereotypical lisper who pokes at shiny things for a few months but can't finish a project
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2020-03-17T20:04:26Z Shinmera: Yeah, I've unfortunately not been successful in finding anyone to help out so far, but I'll keep on trying!
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2020-03-18T00:42:38Z grumpyvegetable: I think someone in here said, a few days ago, that there was a video of someone utilizing the DESCRIBE functionality from CL the way you can with Python's help() in the REPL
2020-03-18T00:42:44Z grumpyvegetable: A youtube video, I think
2020-03-18T00:42:56Z grumpyvegetable: Anyone know where that video is?
2020-03-18T00:46:27Z Bike: that's what aeth was talking about, at least
2020-03-18T00:51:20Z aeth: (ql:quickload :cl-ppcre) (describe #'cl-ppcre:split) (describe #'cl-ppcre:scan)
2020-03-18T00:51:31Z aeth: to use a common package that I happen to know uses docstrings as an example
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2020-03-18T00:57:33Z _death: describe is for describing instances, not really analogous to help
2020-03-18T00:59:18Z aeth: Describe doesn't work on classes? Classes are themselves just instances.
2020-03-18T01:00:33Z Bike: yeah but describe on classes isn't like
2020-03-18T01:00:41Z Bike: i mean, try it, in sbcl, it gibves you a list of slots
2020-03-18T01:00:47Z Bike: it's not like a coherent help system
2020-03-18T01:01:43Z aeth: Well, that's because few classe have (:documentation ...) but it's possible...
2020-03-18T01:01:47Z aeth: *classes
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2020-03-18T01:02:51Z Bike: if i use describe on a class with a docstring, it prints the docstring and then a bunch of slots
2020-03-18T01:02:59Z Bike: if you want the documentation you can just use the documentation function
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2020-03-18T01:04:00Z _death: for example, here is what I consider appropriate use of describe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1708#1708
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2020-03-18T01:07:49Z aeth: _death: Here's my example. https://gitlab.com/snippets/1954365
2020-03-18T01:09:49Z _death: so, basically documentation
2020-03-18T01:10:20Z aeth: Right.
2020-03-18T01:14:55Z _death: to get something analogous to python's help, you need to combine describe-like traversal with documentation-centric qualities of documentation
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2020-03-18T02:17:25Z _death: as an aside, isn't it funny that the Lambda-list shown in your snippet has the opposite symbol qualification from a usability point of view.. you'd expect it to show (NAME-AND-OPTION TYPED-LAMBDA-LIST CL:&BODY BODY)
2020-03-18T02:21:00Z _death: qualification could also be useful if the symbol names a special variable
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2020-03-18T03:58:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-18T03:58:59Z Josh_2: Mornin beach :)
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2020-03-18T04:04:58Z Bike: good morning.
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2020-03-18T04:08:50Z iAmDecim: How hard do you think it would be to make a modern web server in lisp?
2020-03-18T04:09:20Z iAmDecim: I’ve noticed those haven’t been touched in a long time. I was actually coming to Common Lisp but the servers available scared me a little
2020-03-18T04:09:53Z no-defun-allowed: What constitutes "modern" for you?
2020-03-18T04:10:04Z beach was just about to ask the same question.
2020-03-18T04:10:07Z iAmDecim: Http/2 for starters
2020-03-18T04:10:45Z iAmDecim: Also from a layman’s view it seems speed isn’t up to par with say immutant/http-kit in clojure
2020-03-18T04:11:08Z Josh_2: did you look at woo?
2020-03-18T04:11:14Z iAmDecim: And I may be completely wrong. I’m not all that experienced but it seems they are a little behind
2020-03-18T04:11:25Z no-defun-allowed: Which are you comparing to?
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2020-03-18T04:12:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hunchentoot is a tad slow, but I think it's excusable because it is also very dynamic and flexible.
2020-03-18T04:15:23Z iAmDecim: Http-kit at the moment
2020-03-18T04:16:30Z iAmDecim: https://github.com/http-kit/http-kit
2020-03-18T04:16:48Z no-defun-allowed: I meant the Common Lisp server, sorry.
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2020-03-18T04:17:11Z Josh_2: iAmDecim: did you see https://github.com/fukamachi/woo
2020-03-18T04:17:26Z iAmDecim: Oh I looked at clack woo and huchtenroot?
2020-03-18T04:17:47Z Josh_2: Woo seems pretty fast
2020-03-18T04:17:51Z iAmDecim: Also radiance though I believe that’s a full framework?
2020-03-18T04:17:55Z Josh_2: although it is using an external library
2020-03-18T04:17:59Z iAmDecim: But no http2?
2020-03-18T04:18:22Z no-defun-allowed: Radiance doesn't provide a server.
2020-03-18T04:18:50Z iAmDecim: Ahh that’s right. You can plug in what you like.
2020-03-18T04:19:03Z no-defun-allowed: No, I don't think there are any HTTP2 implementations in Common Lisp, except https://github.com/akamai/cl-http2-protocol
2020-03-18T04:19:17Z iAmDecim: Part of my question was  I was trying to decide if I should try to make one partially for my own learning
2020-03-18T04:19:37Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: ahh ok so a library you can plug in. That could be helpful
2020-03-18T04:19:39Z beach: I think that's an excellent idea.
2020-03-18T04:20:26Z iAmDecim: I’m coming from clojure(no expert there) but I did like what I saw from reading half of pcl. In fact it made clojure more clear
2020-03-18T04:20:52Z Josh_2: Imagine Hunchentoot, but with http2
2020-03-18T04:20:55Z Josh_2: sounds great :D
2020-03-18T04:21:27Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, HTTP/2 seems more difficult to implement than HTTP/1
2020-03-18T04:24:28Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: more than likely but how much so?
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2020-03-18T04:25:40Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know, I haven't written proper implementations of either. (My lparallel-backed test implementation of HTTP/1 was faster than I could get Node to go, for the record.)
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2020-03-18T04:30:08Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: it’s on github?
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2020-03-18T04:31:20Z no-defun-allowed: Still, I would guess it could take about 5x the time to write a HTTP/2 implementation? HTTP/1 has some weird kludges like flipping between reading octets and characters, but otherwise it's not multiplexed and mostly text, which is easy to debug.
2020-03-18T04:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: No, I can't remember where I saved it.
2020-03-18T04:33:06Z iAmDecim: Sounds scary already. =)
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2020-03-18T04:34:29Z no-defun-allowed: Not that it wouldn't be great to have, but it would be difficult.
2020-03-18T04:35:54Z iAmDecim: Hmm well that may be a bit for me to chew just yet.
2020-03-18T04:36:01Z beach: It sounds "messy", but "straightforward", so just a matter of putting in the effort, no?  I mean, there are no particular difficult design aspects, are there?
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2020-03-18T04:39:24Z no-defun-allowed: My understanding is that HTTP/2 is fully multiplexed, and servers can send content to clients it believes the client will request soon (such as CSS and JavaScript files for a HTML document).
2020-03-18T04:39:32Z no-defun-allowed: s/servers/a server
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2020-03-18T04:45:25Z no-defun-allowed: iAmDecim: The only thing I did was submit a task to lparallel's thread pool with each connection. The rest was pretty normal, except that it used a Node-ish protocol where you write out strings or byte arrays to the connection.
2020-03-18T04:50:50Z iAmDecim: Gotcha
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2020-03-18T06:19:57Z moon-child: new to asdf, and lisp in general; how do I integrate asdf with quicklisp?
2020-03-18T06:20:13Z Josh_2: asdf comes with most distros
2020-03-18T06:20:18Z Josh_2: if not all
2020-03-18T06:20:22Z moon-child: I made an asdf system, and I try to ql:quickload in a lisp file, but get an error
2020-03-18T06:20:29Z Josh_2: ah
2020-03-18T06:20:31Z moon-child: ql:quickload works fine at repl
2020-03-18T06:20:55Z moon-child: if I quickload the package I need ahead of time, everything works as I would expect
2020-03-18T06:21:10Z Josh_2: yeh
2020-03-18T06:25:05Z Josh_2: quickload is mostly for repl
2020-03-18T06:25:25Z moon-child: so how should I use quicklisp packages outside of the repl?
2020-03-18T06:25:37Z Josh_2: In other projects?
2020-03-18T06:25:46Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you define an ASDF system, and load that.
2020-03-18T06:25:54Z Josh_2: ^
2020-03-18T06:26:22Z no-defun-allowed: Say you have a file foo.lisp, you might write (asdf:define-system :foo :depends-on (:a-dependency :another-dependency ...) :components ((:file "foo"))) in foo.asd
2020-03-18T06:28:51Z Josh_2: if you want to execute your code at terminal then you should load it all up in the repl and then dump the image
2020-03-18T06:28:52Z moon-child: ok
2020-03-18T06:28:59Z Josh_2: then you have an executable
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2020-03-18T06:34:16Z moon-child: how does that work, by the way?  I've been trying to get it to work.  I see program-op and entry-point, and uiop:dump-image
2020-03-18T06:35:09Z Josh_2: you dump the image in the state you had it in, and then you can specify a function that is called when the image is executed
2020-03-18T06:35:20Z iAmDecim: For anyone that uses clojure and Common Lisp. Does slime have a feature that displays the result in the editor. Ciders overlay-result feature?
2020-03-18T06:35:48Z White_Flame: result of what?  the normal REPL expression?  of course
2020-03-18T06:36:28Z no-defun-allowed: In a Common Lisp buffer, (+ 2 2) C-j
2020-03-18T06:37:51Z iAmDecim: no-defun-allowed: gotcha
2020-03-18T06:39:12Z iAmDecim: I’m not home to try it but just to make sure I mean like this. https://youtu.be/l-sj07Vl_wc
2020-03-18T06:40:45Z White_Flame: under the SLIME menu, under Evaluation and Compilation is a bunch of stuff
2020-03-18T06:40:57Z White_Flame: for evaluating a region, a toplevel expression, etc etc
2020-03-18T06:41:05Z White_Flame: the result is normally in the minibuffer
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2020-03-18T06:54:49Z iAmDecim: White_Flame: oh ok. I’ll take a look. I’ve just been going through the books I bought. I’ll have to do some tinkering with slime today. I was sure it would exist. I imagine everything in cider they got the idea from slime and have a long ways to go
2020-03-18T06:55:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, SLIME exposes Common Lisp's interactive debugger at the least.
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2020-03-18T09:14:04Z no-defun-allowed: Does anyone else seem to get frequently bitten by DOLIST, LOOP, and some other iterating forms changing bindings instead of creating them?
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2020-03-18T09:14:42Z Shinmera: I expect them to do it
2020-03-18T09:15:01Z Shinmera: But sure, sometimes one forgets.
2020-03-18T09:15:43Z no-defun-allowed: The two times I can remember making closures in an iteration form, I have done that. Maybe I didn't remember the others because they weren't problematic, though.
2020-03-18T09:16:05Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: changing? what do you mean?
2020-03-18T09:16:14Z phoe: do you mean mutating or shadowing?
2020-03-18T09:16:33Z no-defun-allowed: Mutating.
2020-03-18T09:16:48Z phoe: could you give an example?
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2020-03-18T09:18:11Z no-defun-allowed: Say, if (dolist (x xs) b) was implemented as  (prog* ((step xs) (x (car step)) loop (when (null step) (return)) b (setf step (cdr step) x (car step)) (go loop)) or something like that, it would be mutating the binding of X.
2020-03-18T09:18:11Z shka_: hello dear lispers
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2020-03-18T09:20:45Z shka_: when should i use cl:rational and when cl:rationalize?
2020-03-18T09:20:46Z no-defun-allowed: A Common Lisp implementation is allowed to do that, or something more like (prog ((step xs)) loop (when (null step) (return)) (let ((x (car xs))) b) (setf step (cdr step)) (go loop)) which creates new bindings for X.
2020-03-18T09:21:00Z pjb: iAmDecim: (+ 1 2) C-u C-x C-e
2020-03-18T09:21:09Z shka_: clhs states that rationalize gives approximation +/- machine epsilon
2020-03-18T09:21:25Z shka_: however, does this makes rationalize faster then rational?
2020-03-18T09:21:31Z shka_: in practice
2020-03-18T09:21:32Z pjb: iAmDecim: C-x C-e is usually bound to slime-eval-last-expression in lisp-mode.
2020-03-18T09:21:50Z pjb: iAmDecim: when prefixed with C-u, it inserts the result at the point.
2020-03-18T09:22:49Z pjb: shka_: clhs rational says: If number is a float, rational returns a rational that is mathematically equal in value to the float. rationalize returns a rational that approximates the float to the accuracy of the underlying floating-point representation.
2020-03-18T09:23:04Z pjb: It's not a question of speed, but of semantics.
2020-03-18T09:23:12Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: I never got bitten by that, I don't remember any issue like that
2020-03-18T09:23:15Z pjb: (rational 0.33) #| --> 11072963/33554432 |# (rationalize 0.33) #| --> 33/100 |#
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2020-03-18T09:23:39Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: you can see the difference by creating a closure each step of the iteration.
2020-03-18T09:23:43Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: A quick test with (the-cost-of-nothing:bench (rational/rationalize (the-cost-of-nothing:touch pi))) suggests RATIONAL is about 23 times faster.
2020-03-18T09:23:53Z no-defun-allowed: Granted, that is a worst-case scenario in some ways.
2020-03-18T09:23:53Z iAmDecim: pjb: sweet. That sounds exactly like what I’m looking for.  I’ll be home in a few to do some playing
2020-03-18T09:24:09Z shka_: wow, ok
2020-03-18T09:24:12Z shka_: interesting
2020-03-18T09:24:17Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: That's how I got bitten in the backside by it.
2020-03-18T09:24:24Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: you tested that on the SBCL is presume?
2020-03-18T09:24:30Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-03-18T09:24:32Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: A mutation means all the closures refer to the same, final value like 11 11 11 11... New bindings means that the closures all refer to their original iteration, like 0 1 2 3 4 5...
2020-03-18T09:24:42Z aeth: The only real way to see, afaik
2020-03-18T09:24:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that's why I asked.
2020-03-18T09:25:18Z aeth: The real fun part is that the final value is probably (but not necessarily) 1 more than what you think the final value is... I say "not necessarily" because it depends on the semantics of the test
2020-03-18T09:25:37Z aeth: So there's actually at least 3 possibilities.
2020-03-18T09:25:45Z no-defun-allowed: ...though my problems arose with LOOPing over a list, which usually is expanded to something that mutates bindings.
2020-03-18T09:26:03Z aeth: oh LOOP is even weirder
2020-03-18T09:26:37Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: my basic problem here is that i can't seem to understand why both rational and rationalize exist
2020-03-18T09:27:11Z aeth: the hyperspec has it
2020-03-18T09:27:38Z aeth: (rational .1) could be  13421773/134217728 and (rationalize .1) is 1/10
2020-03-18T09:28:17Z aeth: RATIONAL gives you what it is, RATIONALIZE gives you what you probably want it to be
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2020-03-18T09:33:52Z iAmDecim: Just focus on the word choices. The latter is a verb so it’s acting out for you opposed to an actual rational
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2020-03-18T09:39:11Z phoe: oooh, you mean *this*
2020-03-18T09:40:04Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: so you close over loop variables and have them mutated by the iteration
2020-03-18T09:44:40Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-03-18T09:44:54Z shka_: aeth: ok?
2020-03-18T09:45:02Z shka_: i guess
2020-03-18T09:46:11Z aeth: shka_: remember that it probably looks like 1010100101010010101010000100110111 (pretend that's a correct length) and so it is necessarily a rational number already
2020-03-18T09:46:21Z flip214: trying (rationalize pi) gives me 245850922/78256779
2020-03-18T09:46:31Z aeth: we use them to represent reals, but they're not
2020-03-18T09:46:32Z flip214: that looks like a SHORT-FLOAT conversion...
2020-03-18T09:47:42Z aeth: flip214: no
2020-03-18T09:48:57Z aeth: flip214: (coerce 245850922/78256779 'double-float) and pi both print to 3.141592653589793d0 for me. Compare with (coerce pi 'single-float) which to me prints as 3.1415927 and then if you do (coerce (coerce pi 'single-float) 'double-float) you get 3.1415927410125732d0
2020-03-18T09:49:21Z flip214: aeth: 78256779 only has 27 bits, so that being used to represent a double-float with >40 bits mantissa seems lucky
2020-03-18T09:49:31Z aeth: and (rationalize (coerce pi 'single-float)) => 93343/29712
2020-03-18T09:49:39Z shka_: aeth: ok, thanks for explanation
2020-03-18T09:49:47Z shka_: this makes more sense to me now
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2020-03-18T09:50:54Z aeth: flip214: there is some luck involved. What I just shows prints as 3.1415253
2020-03-18T09:51:07Z aeth: (when FLOATifid again)
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2020-03-18T10:03:52Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, my issue noting a copy-paste mistake on safe-queue hasn't been noticed for about 6 months now. What should I do about it?
2020-03-18T10:04:22Z no-defun-allowed: When I had to wait six months last time, I just pinged the person by @name and it was responded to quickly, I guess.
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2020-03-18T10:06:08Z phoe: say "bump" in the thread
2020-03-18T10:06:13Z phoe: in the worst case, just submit the PR
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2020-03-18T10:07:39Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
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2020-03-18T10:54:26Z no-defun-allowed: That worked again. Does GitHub not notify people when someone creates an issue or pull request?
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2020-03-18T10:55:30Z phoe: It notifies them! It's people who forget about notifications though.
2020-03-18T10:55:53Z phoe: I last encountered then when I noticed my PR from like a year ago that I made to pgloader and then forget to clean up and merge.
2020-03-18T10:56:20Z no-defun-allowed: Bummer.
2020-03-18T11:01:21Z Shinmera: I try to stay on top of issues and prs but sometimes I just can't be bothered to deal with it at the moment, and then it gets lost in time.
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2020-03-18T11:56:25Z flip214: I noticed that when you get a repo transferred you're not automatically subscribed - and a few similar cases where you wouldn't be notified about issues and PRs.
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2020-03-18T12:36:20Z flip214: when catching an UNDEFINED-FUNCTION condition, is there some compatible way to get at the name? SBCL has a SB-KERNEL::NAME slot in the condition, is there some trivial- library?
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2020-03-18T12:40:51Z phoe: flip214: cell-error-name
2020-03-18T12:41:04Z flip214: phoe: thanks!
2020-03-18T12:41:11Z phoe: www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_cell_e.htm
2020-03-18T12:41:17Z phoe: undefined-function is a cell-error
2020-03-18T12:41:41Z phoe: it's so trivial it's in the standard
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2020-03-18T17:46:17Z pyc: Hi Everyone! We are starting a special interest group to discuss mathematics and computer science literature. We plan to have web-based meetings for knowledge sharing sessions. Lisp, Fortran, Logo, BASIC, etc. are on-topic too. Please /join #euclidpoint if you're interested.
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2020-03-18T18:34:08Z dlowe: That sounds like nerd gladiator arena to me
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2020-03-18T18:43:07Z jackdaniel: since there is no pending discussion I'll brag about further progress with McCLIM html5 canvas: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETaYietWkAAJUX5?format=jpg&name=4096x4096 (top is html5, middle is software rasterizer and bottom is clx display)
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2020-03-18T20:16:05Z vivit: Is there a library that provides abstraction for nested iteration?
2020-03-18T20:17:15Z vivit: If I want to use iter to loop over a two-dimensional array, for example, I have to write two nested loops. That creates a lot of code duplication. Is there a library that simplifies this?
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2020-03-18T20:18:21Z dlowe: vivit: if you want to loop over a two-dimensional array, you can use row-major-aref to use a single loow
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2020-03-18T20:18:24Z dlowe: *loop
2020-03-18T20:18:27Z sjl_: iterate is extensible enough to allow you to write a nested iteration construct yourself, but doesn't provide one by default
2020-03-18T20:18:36Z sjl_: e.g. https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/src/iterate.lisp#L286
2020-03-18T20:18:57Z dlowe: row-major-aref will also allow you to loop over n-dimensional arrays
2020-03-18T20:19:30Z dlowe: however, it's hard to see how a two loops would create massive amounts of code duplication
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2020-03-18T20:20:00Z dlowe: wouldn't it just be (loop for y below height do (loop for x below width do ...))?
2020-03-18T20:20:15Z dlowe: (or whatever iter thing is in vogue)
2020-03-18T20:20:42Z alandipert: dlowe didn't know about row-major-aref, thanks for that
2020-03-18T20:21:55Z sjl_: loop or dotimes or whatever are okay if you just want to iterate for side effects.  If you want to :collect or whatever then you need to bubble the results up through the intermediate loops.
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2020-03-18T20:25:14Z pjb: vivit: https://termbin.com/jtyi
2020-03-18T20:25:22Z aeth: sjl_: Sometimes you :collect and sometimes you :append the inner LOOPs, but, yes.
2020-03-18T20:25:24Z pjb: vivit: there's no library because it's too easy to write your own specific macro.
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2020-03-18T20:28:30Z aeth: pjb: right
2020-03-18T20:28:46Z aeth: It's pretty easy to e.g. make a macro that expands to a dotimes in a dotimes
2020-03-18T20:30:00Z aeth: `(dotimes (,outer-var ,outer-count ,result) (dotimes (,inner-var ,inner-count) ,@body))
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2020-03-18T20:31:18Z aeth: If you have to collect/append/sum/etc. then you should use a LOOP instead
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2020-03-18T20:33:23Z pjb: When you have embedded loops, it may be easier to use another collector than the loop collectors.
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2020-03-18T20:34:40Z pjb: (let ((collection '())) (flet ((collect (x) (push x collection)))  (rloop ((for i below 3) (for j below 3) (for k below 3 do (collect (list i j k)))))) collection) -> ((2 2 2) (2 2 1) (2 2 0) (2 1 2) (2 1 1) (2 1 0) (2 0 2) (2 0 1) (2 0 0) (1 2 2) (1 2 1) (1 2 0) (1 1 2) (1 1 1) (1 1 0) (1 0 2) (1 0 1) (1 0 0) (0 2 2) (0 2 1) (0 2 0) (0 1 2) (0 1 1) (0 1 0) (0 0 2) (0 0 1) (0 0 0))
2020-03-18T20:35:27Z pjb: and faster too. With loop, you'd have to use append or nconc and destroy it complexity-wise.
2020-03-18T20:37:44Z _death: you may also use displaced arrays, e.g. to flatten an array or work on rows of a matrix
2020-03-18T20:38:33Z pjb: Sometimes you can't.
2020-03-18T20:38:50Z pjb: displacing matrices wouldn't help in multiplying them.
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2020-03-18T20:43:29Z _death: it could if you have one of them transposed
2020-03-18T20:44:36Z moon-child: is there a way to find the precision of the different floating-point types?  I assume single-float and double-float are the same as whatever float and double are in c (ieee 754 32-bit and 64-bit precision).  Is that true?  What are short-float and long-float?
2020-03-18T20:45:13Z jackdaniel: moon-child: it is not specified whether common lisp floats are ieee 754 compatible (they usually are though)
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2020-03-18T20:45:39Z jackdaniel: there is single-float-epsylon etc
2020-03-18T20:45:39Z _death: clhs float-precision
2020-03-18T20:46:27Z _death: minion got the corona..
2020-03-18T20:46:58Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
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2020-03-18T20:50:28Z splittist: jackdaniel: the McClim/5 thing looks great.
2020-03-18T20:51:04Z jackdaniel: thank you :)
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2020-03-18T22:02:04Z moon-child: Bike: that is helpful.  I am confused, though; (float-digits 5.0) returns 24.  But wikipedia says 32-bit ieee 754 has a 23-bit mantissa
2020-03-18T22:03:48Z Bike: "The true significand includes 23 fraction bits to the right of the binary point and an implicit leading bit (to the left of the binary point) with value 1, unless the exponent is stored with all zeros."
2020-03-18T22:04:14Z moon-child: oic
2020-03-18T22:04:36Z Bike: i suppose that is what the float-digits page means by "hidden bit"
2020-03-18T22:06:06Z Bike: by the way, even if an implementation didn't use IEEE754, the standard requires (to skip some parts) that a single float has at least 24 significand and 8 exponent bits, and a double has at least 50 significand and 8 exponent, so you should be fairly safe with most things
2020-03-18T22:06:22Z Bike: i don't know if there are any modern lisps that don't use IEEE754 for at least singles and doubles, though
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2020-03-18T22:12:19Z moon-child: I care less about minimum precision than maximum precision--want to make sure they're not taking up too much memory
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2020-03-18T22:15:39Z Bike: these operators don't reflect memory usage. for example on a 32 bit implementation, single floats will probably be boxed
2020-03-18T22:16:43Z moon-child: but if I have a vector of all float, that can be detected, right?
2020-03-18T22:16:59Z aeth: :element-type 'single-float or :element-type 'double-float
2020-03-18T22:17:02Z aeth: You need to do it manually
2020-03-18T22:17:09Z aeth: (in MAKE-ARRAY)
2020-03-18T22:17:25Z aeth: There's a chance that that implementation still won't optimize it, but that's not an implementation you should be using for this sort of thing, anyway
2020-03-18T22:17:43Z moon-child: I'm probably only supporting sbcl, so yah that's fine
2020-03-18T22:19:49Z aeth: (64-bit) SBCL is pretty smart. You can make your own box for double-floats by keeping them in arrays with element-type double-float
2020-03-18T22:20:19Z aeth: Then as long as they don't leave the function scope, they won't get heap-allocated.
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2020-03-18T22:20:34Z aeth: You will have to use type declarations, though.
2020-03-18T22:21:22Z aeth: something like this iirc: (defun foo (a) (declare (type (simple-array double-float (*)) a)) (incf (aref a 0)) a)
2020-03-18T22:21:44Z aeth: if you don't return A at the end, then it will box the result, though, since INCF will implicitly return the number
2020-03-18T22:21:59Z moon-child: ahh, cool
2020-03-18T22:22:41Z aeth: Not every implementation will do this, but every implementation could do this if someone submits patches. Of course, what leaves scope will depend on the implementations. e.g. SBCL will allocate if you print that float with FORMAT, but in theory an implementation might be able to optimize that away, too
2020-03-18T22:22:52Z aeth: In SBCL (declare (optimize (speed 3))) will tell you these things as a note
2020-03-18T22:22:58Z Bike: if you rae using sbcl, you should declare a high optimize level, which will make sbcl spit out a note for everything you're doing suboptimally
2020-03-18T22:23:02Z Bike: it's a lot of output
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2020-03-19T03:38:27Z moon-child: I'm trying to make an accessor function for vectors.  So you can say something like (vec2:dec v (format nil "(~a,~a)" x y)) instead of having to manually aref
2020-03-19T03:38:52Z moon-child: I came up with this http://sprunge.us/hof6T2?cl, but it doesn't work because the x and y symbols are local to the 'vec2' package, and so hidden from whatever package is using the macro
2020-03-19T03:38:57Z moon-child: how can I fix it?
2020-03-19T03:39:18Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe you should let the client pick what symbols it wants bound.
2020-03-19T03:39:55Z no-defun-allowed: Then I could write, say (dec (x1 y1) v1 (dec (x2 y2) v2 (make-vector (+ x1 x2) (+ y1 y2)))) to sum two vectors v1 and v2.
2020-03-19T03:39:55Z moon-child: I don't want to do that
2020-03-19T03:40:40Z moon-child: there will be a second form (vec2:dec (v u) (make-vector (+ x1 y1) (+ x2 y2))), which just adds increasing numbers to the parameters
2020-03-19T03:40:52Z moon-child: but that doesn't work because just exposing symbols doesn't work
2020-03-19T03:42:11Z moon-child: I see someone else did it like this https://github.com/mfiano/origin/blob/master/src/internal.lisp#L8.  Is there a prettier way?
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2020-03-19T03:55:32Z oni-on-ion: oh. #guile asks: how come, when calling with zero arguments, (*) => 1, (+) => 0, (-) => error?
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2020-03-19T03:57:23Z no-defun-allowed: Here is my intuition: (+ 1) = (+ 1 0) take 1 from both sides: (+) = (+ 0)
2020-03-19T03:57:29Z oni-on-ion: (i am getting the same in sbcl)
2020-03-19T03:57:41Z Bike: because - isn't defined in as regular a way
2020-03-19T03:57:48Z no-defun-allowed: (* 2 1) = (* 2) take 2 from both sides: (* 2) = (*)
2020-03-19T03:58:17Z Bike: (- x) = (negate x), (- x ...) = (+ x (- (+ ...)))
2020-03-19T03:58:19Z no-defun-allowed: I can't think of anything like that which makes sense for -.
2020-03-19T03:58:25Z oni-on-ion: you mean (* 1) = (*) ?
2020-03-19T03:58:38Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yeah, my bad. (* 1) = (*)
2020-03-19T03:59:10Z oni-on-ion: (/) also errors for the same reason as (-)  [not enough args]
2020-03-19T03:59:37Z Bike: it's defined in the same way. single arg is reciprocal, multi arg is multiplication with reciprocal
2020-03-19T04:00:03Z oni-on-ion: oh, right
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2020-03-19T04:00:25Z oni-on-ion: wait (/) and (-) are ?
2020-03-19T04:00:30Z Bike: yes
2020-03-19T04:00:38Z oni-on-ion: ok =)
2020-03-19T04:00:41Z Bike: i just checked the guile manual and it defines - in the same way, so i don't think i understand why this question is coming from them
2020-03-19T04:01:06Z Bike: too
2020-03-19T04:01:15Z Bike: "If called with one argument z1, -z1 is returned. Otherwise the sum of all but the first argument are subtracted from the first argument. "
2020-03-19T04:01:56Z aeth: They're defined inductively, and (*) and (+) can start at 0, so they do. (-) and (/) cannot because they start at 2 with special case behavior for length 1.
2020-03-19T04:02:25Z aeth: (- x) has to behave the way it does because otherwise (- x) would be x and you'd need another function for negation and this would be syntactically counterintuitive
2020-03-19T04:02:50Z oni-on-ion: i have no mouse and i wonder if i can paste those lines there , they seem to be having trouble with it and these clear it right up for me.
2020-03-19T04:02:53Z aeth: I guess (/ x) is there because it's useful while (/ x) defined like (* x) would be useless
2020-03-19T04:04:03Z aeth: (/ x) also parallels (- x) because (- x) is (- 0 x) and (/ x) is (/ 1 x) in other words (- x) is (- (+) x) and (/ x) is (/ (*) x)
2020-03-19T04:04:16Z oni-on-ion: hmm cool =)
2020-03-19T04:05:41Z aeth: It's actually mathematically very neat because the additive identity is (+) and the multiplicative identity is (*) so you never need any numbers!
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2020-03-19T04:06:38Z aeth: You can build the numbers like (+), (+ (*)), (+ (*) (*)), ..., and now you have yet another way to construct numbers from first principles in Common Lisp
2020-03-19T04:07:12Z akoana: true, and so  (/ (*))  gives 1 and  (- (+))  0
2020-03-19T04:07:59Z akoana: nice, indeed
2020-03-19T04:09:24Z oni-on-ion: is this ok for me to share with #guile? -> http://ix.io/2eEc/text
2020-03-19T04:09:51Z oni-on-ion: i wont say where its from
2020-03-19T04:10:49Z aeth: sure?
2020-03-19T04:12:15Z akoana thinks, Mr. Peano wouldn't care :)
2020-03-19T04:13:47Z aeth: Completely pointless, but fun: (defun f (i) (labels ((g (j) (if (= j i) j (g (+ j (*)))))) (g (+))))
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2020-03-19T04:14:47Z oni-on-ion: no defun allowed! only serious work =)
2020-03-19T04:15:29Z axion: moon-child: There is nothing ugly about my method. That function is called at compile-time for use inside symbol-macrolet to expand into aref calls. Alternatively you could just define your vector objects as structs with a vector :type, and slots to be specialized arrays, and a good implementation will produce nearly the same machine code as AREF for named accessors
2020-03-19T04:15:45Z aeth: oni-on-ion: no defun? Well, okay. (setf (fdefinition 'f) (lambda (i) (labels ((g (j) (if (= j i) j (g (+ j (*)))))) (g (+)))))
2020-03-19T04:15:49Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: No, there's two negatives. You're not allowed to de-fun.
2020-03-19T04:16:24Z no-defun-allowed: i.e. d fun / d t must not be less than 0
2020-03-19T04:16:40Z akoana: haha
2020-03-19T04:18:00Z aeth: in case anyone is confused, it's just an obfuscation of (defun f (i) i) if f is a nonnegative integer... and an infinite loop if f is any other number :-p
2020-03-19T04:18:06Z aeth: I probably should've, uh, restricted it
2020-03-19T04:19:11Z aeth: well >= instead of = makes it (max 0 (ceiling i))
2020-03-19T04:26:48Z akoana: aeth: thanks for the improvement, the previous version punished me with an infinite loop for negative input - maybe that was too rude ;)
2020-03-19T04:27:16Z aeth: (defun f (i) (labels ((g (j) (if (>= j i) j (g (+ j (*)))))) (g (+))))
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2020-03-19T04:27:50Z aeth: now hopefully (haltp #'f) => T
2020-03-19T04:28:17Z akoana: thanks, verified ;)
2020-03-19T04:28:25Z no-defun-allowed: (haltp #'haltp)
2020-03-19T04:28:40Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well? I'm waiting...
2020-03-19T04:29:10Z no-defun-allowed: (haltp (labels ((f (x) (if (haltp #'x) (loop) x))) #'f))
2020-03-19T04:30:43Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: T
2020-03-19T04:30:48Z aeth: that just returns #<FUNCTION (LABELS F) {52DAA8EB}>
2020-03-19T04:30:49Z aeth: :-)
2020-03-19T04:31:46Z no-defun-allowed: (labels ((f (x) (if (haltp #'f x) (loop) x))) (f :maybe))
2020-03-19T04:33:59Z aeth: akoana: more seriously, it's always good practice to do >= in loops rather than = and I just demonstrated why
2020-03-19T04:34:24Z akoana: hmm, good point
2020-03-19T04:35:36Z aeth: Fortunately, both :below and :to do so in LOOP, e.g. :from 100 :below 10 doesn't run, as expected, but :from 100 :to 10 doesn't infinite loop, which it might have with = semantics
2020-03-19T04:35:49Z aeth: well, I hope that's not implementation-specific...
2020-03-19T04:36:30Z aeth: also e.g. (loop :for i :from 1 :to 10 :by 5/3 :do (print i))
2020-03-19T04:36:56Z aeth: with = semantics that's an infinite loop, too
2020-03-19T04:37:40Z aeth: fortunately, it terminates
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2020-03-19T04:38:48Z akoana: it's a sign of good design
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2020-03-19T04:48:25Z aeth: and I'm guessing a cryptic, obfuscated use of LABELS is not good design? :-(
2020-03-19T04:50:16Z akoana: lol, depends...
2020-03-19T04:51:29Z akoana: ... on the design goal :)
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2020-03-19T05:02:15Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: very kewl :D
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2020-03-19T05:36:10Z moon-child: axion: upon further examination of your solution (ignoring the string munging) it does look a lot prettier.  But actually, I don't think it would work for my purposes; it requires you to pass in a symbol, so it knows the namespace of the caller
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2020-03-19T05:44:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-19T05:51:36Z Josh_2: Morning beach
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2020-03-19T06:20:17Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: I still think it would be better to allow the client to pick the symbols that they want bound.
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2020-03-19T06:21:47Z no-defun-allowed: How often do you dance in the shallows of a river?^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W Maybe you could intern new symbols in the current package, if you're sure you want to do that.
2020-03-19T06:22:00Z moon-child: heh
2020-03-19T06:22:25Z moon-child: I'm the only consumer of my library, and I prefer the other usage.  Also I figured it out: ,(read-from-string "x") seems to do what I want
2020-03-19T06:22:32Z no-defun-allowed: clhs intern
2020-03-19T06:22:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
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2020-03-19T06:28:42Z no-defun-allowed: You might end up with a macro that looks like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1710
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2020-03-19T06:33:14Z moon-child: ...pretty much, yah
2020-03-19T06:33:19Z moon-child: http://sprunge.us/xLUT0k?cl
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2020-03-19T08:30:24Z parjanya: mornings! what serialis/zation package would you recommend? I tried the "save-object" one mentioned on cliki.net, but it does need some maintenance; I tried hu.dwim.serializer before, but I was hoping for something simpler
2020-03-19T08:31:06Z no-defun-allowed: What do you need to serialize?
2020-03-19T08:31:24Z pjb: parjanya: it really depends on what data structures you want to serialize.
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2020-03-19T08:31:50Z pjb: parjanya: and also, what's the destination of the serialized data. You may have constraints on the format or not.
2020-03-19T08:32:04Z pjb: parjanya: there are a lot of libraries that can be used for serialization.
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2020-03-19T08:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: You may get away with just writing your graph to a file with WRITE and reading it back with READ, with *print-circle* and *print-readably* set to T, if you have appropriate PRINT-OBJECT methods.
2020-03-19T08:33:03Z pjb: parjanya: for example, my heap package could be used for it.  It doesn't really serialize, but it copies a lisp data structure into another lisp data structure, in a specific format, that can be stored in a byte vector that can be transfered or saved.
2020-03-19T08:33:49Z parjanya: I just need to serialize objects with plists and such things... it would be nice if it was not binary, but not necessary
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2020-03-19T08:34:54Z pjb: parjanya: prin1 and read can be enough.
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2020-03-19T08:35:33Z no-defun-allowed talks to the wind; at least to pjb who doesn't read it
2020-03-19T08:35:33Z pjb: parjanya: if you have clos objects, you can define a print-object method on your classes, and either output #.(make-instance …) strings, or define a specific reader macro.
2020-03-19T08:35:44Z pjb: parjanya: you can see an example of that in gsharp.
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2020-03-19T08:36:02Z pjb: parjanya: the advantage of doing that is that you get free cycle processing thru #=/##
2020-03-19T08:36:40Z parjanya: pjb: anything I could read about this?
2020-03-19T08:36:58Z pjb: I have a clone of gsharp at https://github.com/informatimago/gsharp
2020-03-19T08:38:28Z White_Flame: structures also print readably by default, if you're using them.  Arrays print their contents, but their various config data isn't included
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2020-03-19T08:39:15Z aeth: structs, of course, can have print-object, too
2020-03-19T08:39:27Z White_Flame: yep, anything with a class can
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2020-03-19T08:39:47Z White_Flame: (or at least something close to that)
2020-03-19T08:40:08Z aeth: which doesn't include conditions in SBCL iirc
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2020-03-19T08:40:17Z parjanya: pjb: tx :) aha, I remember having perused your site quite a lot already
2020-03-19T08:40:25Z pjb: parjanya: see for example: https://github.com/informatimago/gsharp/blob/master/buffer.lisp
2020-03-19T08:40:26Z aeth: someone was complaining about something along the lines of conditions not being truly integrated, at least
2020-03-19T08:40:51Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that is an X13J3 issue noted in the CLHS.
2020-03-19T08:40:53Z pjb: parjanya: note the use of a version dispatcher ;-)
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2020-03-19T08:41:22Z no-defun-allowed: See CLOS-CONDITIONS:INTEGRATE http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss049_w.htm
2020-03-19T08:42:51Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: so will it get resolved in a new version of the standard?
2020-03-19T08:43:09Z no-defun-allowed: CLtL3 confirmed
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2020-03-19T08:47:12Z White_Flame: aeth: huh, I define print methods on custom conditions and haven't had any issues with SBCL
2020-03-19T08:47:25Z White_Flame: is it the built-in ones that don't work?
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2020-03-19T08:50:47Z pjb: aeth: really, the problem is that it's heavily implementation dependent.
2020-03-19T08:51:08Z pjb: aeth: routinely, when you change the implementation of a library function, you can see that you don't detect the same errors.
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2020-03-19T08:51:28Z pjb: when the code changes, it doesn't signal the same conditions.
2020-03-19T08:54:16Z parjanya: ohh apparently structs are indeed foolproof enough for me to use : o )
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2020-03-19T09:06:44Z beach: pjb: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless.
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2020-03-19T09:14:43Z iAmDecim: i like that you all are still active on IRC...all hours. *observing*
2020-03-19T09:15:53Z parjanya: still?
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2020-03-19T09:16:27Z iAmDecim: parjanya: a lot of people are going to slack and I hate slack. lol. impersonal...
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2020-03-19T09:18:11Z parjanya: after googling... proprietary, written in electron, what’s not to dislike? ; )
2020-03-19T09:18:34Z iAmDecim: lol...how much time do you have?
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2020-03-19T09:22:32Z White_Flame: iAmDecim: there's this thing called timezones...
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2020-03-19T09:23:11Z iAmDecim: White_Flame: timezones are a hoax...
2020-03-19T09:23:43Z iAmDecim: jk...jk.
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2020-03-19T09:28:19Z pjb: beach: ok, then s/CLOS object/standard-object/.
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2020-03-19T09:29:29Z pjb: iAmDecim: https://termbin.com/49s8
2020-03-19T09:29:30Z pjb:  
2020-03-19T09:35:52Z beach: pjb: Right.
2020-03-19T09:39:01Z iAmDecim: =O
2020-03-19T09:40:02Z no-defun-allowed: minion: tell pjb about Universal Greeting Time
2020-03-19T09:40:02Z minion: pjb: look at Universal Greeting Time: It is always morning when a person enters a channel, and late night when they leave. You may want to read http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html for further information
2020-03-19T09:41:02Z loke: no-defun-allowed: that's a stupid idea. Sorry, but it had to be said.
2020-03-19T09:41:48Z no-defun-allowed: If more people are joining than leaving, it is morning, and vice versa for afternoon.
2020-03-19T09:42:31Z jdz: So we all start using Beijing time?
2020-03-19T09:42:57Z loke: jdz: That's fine by me. That's my timezone already.
2020-03-19T09:43:10Z jdz: Immediately regretting my decision to get engaged in an off-topic conversation.
2020-03-19T09:43:15Z no-defun-allowed: That would personally benefit me, because Beijing isn't too far from here.
2020-03-19T09:43:27Z loke: no-defun-allowed: where are you located?
2020-03-19T09:43:58Z no-defun-allowed: Melbourne, Australia
2020-03-19T09:45:02Z no-defun-allowed: Or, for a more bespoke standard for #lisp et al, it's morning when beach announces it, afternoon starts 8 hours after that, then night another 8 hours after afternoon.
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2020-03-19T09:47:26Z loke: no-defun-allowed: I'm OK with that. Beach is very reliable.
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2020-03-19T09:57:27Z iAmDecim: =( i've decided there is no morning or night.  I almost work 2 full time jobs.  There's a sun down and sun up...various moons.....
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2020-03-19T10:47:05Z parjanya: what’s tha name of this? implementation selector?  #+symbolics
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2020-03-19T10:47:57Z Shinmera: #+ is a reader conditional
2020-03-19T10:48:01Z Shinmera: clhs #+
2020-03-19T10:48:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
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2020-03-19T12:45:47Z jmercouris: is there a way to have a body in a defcfun to do some processing?
2020-03-19T12:45:57Z jmercouris: or do I have to wrap it in an ordinary lisp function?
2020-03-19T12:46:17Z jmercouris: I'm trying to convert from int in C to t or nil
2020-03-19T12:46:38Z jmercouris: I was going to make a function that does that, but I'm just wondering if there is not a way to do it within the defcfun
2020-03-19T12:48:08Z Bike: you have to wrap it in an ordinary lisp function.
2020-03-19T12:48:13Z jmercouris: OK, thank you
2020-03-19T12:48:37Z Bike: this is a fairly common procedure. you can use a defcfun with a lisp name of %foo, and then define the exported foo to call it
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2020-03-19T12:48:45Z jmercouris: yeah, that's what I've seen done, and have done
2020-03-19T12:48:51Z jmercouris: I was just thinking of a better way
2020-03-19T12:48:53Z Bike: good for varargs and reference passing and stuff
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2020-03-19T12:51:07Z pjb: jmercouris: you will often write lisp wrappers of C functions, if only to deal with error cases.
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2020-03-19T12:51:29Z pjb: jmercouris: so you can signal lisp conditions instead of returning status codes.
2020-03-19T12:51:32Z jmercouris: right
2020-03-19T12:52:47Z Bike: you could define a macro to combine them somehow i guess, but cffi doesn't provide one and i haven't seen such a thing
2020-03-19T12:53:19Z jmercouris: I think it could be a little bit enater
2020-03-19T12:53:23Z jmercouris: s/enater/neater
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2020-03-19T12:53:59Z pjb: Of course, you will use macros, to deal with homogeneous APIs.
2020-03-19T12:54:00Z Bike: well, give it a shot, and if it's nice maybe cffi could incorporate it
2020-03-19T12:54:35Z jmercouris: yeah, I will try at some time
2020-03-19T12:54:37Z _death: my preference is to have a low-level package containing the C-based interface and a high-level package containing a Lispy interface.. working with C interfaces directly tends to be suboptimal
2020-03-19T12:54:57Z pjb: jmercouris: have a look at: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/clext/pkcs11 for example.
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2020-03-19T12:55:31Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pkcs11/pkcs11-cffi.lisp contains the CFFI definitions, and https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/clext/pkcs11/pkcs11.lisp contains the wrappers.
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2020-03-19T12:56:20Z Nilby: jmercouris: You could also define a type converter, e.g. with defining a method on cffi:translaste-from-foreign
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2020-03-19T12:57:26Z jmercouris: pjb: right, so kind of like what _death said
2020-03-19T12:57:35Z jmercouris: Nilby: 1
2020-03-19T12:57:51Z pjb: jmercouris: exactly.
2020-03-19T12:59:26Z pjb: Notably, it's nice to have a pure CFFI low-level API to directly call C when needed, but it is an unsafe API, so you need to wrap it to ensure C functions are called in a way that won't crash, and that you can use the high level API safely interactively, even if you don't know how to use it.
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2020-03-19T13:07:08Z Xach: beach: does the trucler project have a trucler.asd? trucler-test.asd seems to expect one but I don't see it.
2020-03-19T13:07:23Z beach: Oh?  How strange.
2020-03-19T13:07:32Z beach: Hold on.  Let me look...
2020-03-19T13:09:01Z beach: There is not a trucler.asd, but there is trucler-reference.asd, trucler-native.asd  and trucler-base.asd
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2020-03-19T13:09:43Z Xach: What is trucler-test meant to use, I wonder?
2020-03-19T13:10:13Z beach: I see not trucler-test.asd.  Only trucler-native-test.asd
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2020-03-19T13:10:41Z beach: It depends on trucler-base and trucler-native.
2020-03-19T13:10:46Z Bike: trucler-test.asd is in the master branch on s expressionists
2020-03-19T13:11:00Z Bike: are you looking at a different repo maybe?
2020-03-19T13:11:04Z Xach: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Trucler/blob/master/Test/trucler-test.asd is what I mean
2020-03-19T13:11:10Z Xach: That is the only repo I know of, sorry
2020-03-19T13:11:13Z Xach: maybe it is not the right one?
2020-03-19T13:11:20Z beach: Ah, sorry, yes I see it.
2020-03-19T13:11:44Z beach: It might be obsolete.
2020-03-19T13:12:10Z beach: You need to check with heisig.  I don't know myself.
2020-03-19T13:12:15Z Xach: ok
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2020-03-19T13:13:59Z splittist: Would be nice to have non-TeX documentation, too. But lots of things would be nice, and this isn't even in the top 7...
2020-03-19T13:14:51Z beach: I have come to the conclusion that no matter what surface syntax is used for the documentation, around 90% of people are dissatisfied with it.
2020-03-19T13:15:17Z beach: Mainly because there are so many different choices, and everyone seems to have a different preference.
2020-03-19T13:15:48Z beach: This is also why I would like to see a documentation system based on CLOS protocols rather than surface syntax.
2020-03-19T13:16:00Z beach: But I think jackdaniel is working on such a thing.
2020-03-19T13:16:46Z jackdaniel: I do, as well as dizen of other things though :)
2020-03-19T13:17:00Z beach: Yeah, I know.
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2020-03-19T13:17:20Z jackdaniel: be vary of eu.turtlewate.london system which will emerge one day :)
2020-03-19T13:17:35Z jackdaniel: as Jack London ;)
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2020-03-19T13:44:40Z heisig: Xach: Yes, the toplevel test suite of Trucler has some bitrot.  Give me 10 minutes...
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2020-03-19T13:49:15Z heisig: ... fixed.  I also added a trucler.asd file that loads all the other Trucler systems.
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2020-03-19T13:49:28Z beach: Thanks heisig.
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2020-03-19T13:55:41Z eschulte: _death I ended up folding two functions from that ELF/Capstone patch you sent me into my nascent CFFI Capstone package.  Are you okay with me publishing that code as part of this package (I'm planning to release it under an MIT license)?
2020-03-19T13:56:36Z eschulte: They're the functions that parse Capstone opcode strings into Sexprs.  I inline comments attributing them to _death.
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2020-03-19T14:18:47Z _death: eschulte: sure
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2020-03-19T14:29:35Z _death: eschulte: like it says in the commit message, though, it's an "ugly hack" :)... in all likelihood it's incomplete, inefficient, does not work with other architectures, depends on the exact textual output of capstone, etc.
2020-03-19T14:29:51Z eschulte: _death: great, thanks.  I'll post a link here when I get it up
2020-03-19T14:29:56Z shidima: Does any one have a working code excample of how to host a css file with hunchentoot?
2020-03-19T14:30:09Z eschulte: Yeah, I'll drop a TODO in next to that code.  TODO/FIXME innoculation against judgement
2020-03-19T14:30:23Z shidima: I have tried different ways of doing it but I can't seem to get it right
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2020-03-19T14:30:52Z Xach: shidima: i don't have short working code handy to share, but i can tell you that it is no different from serving any other content in general.
2020-03-19T14:31:14Z Xach: shidima: are you able to serve, say, html files?
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2020-03-19T14:51:25Z shidima: euh, let me check
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2020-03-19T15:10:29Z shidima: Hah, got it to work. :)
2020-03-19T15:10:36Z jmercouris: yay!
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2020-03-19T15:11:13Z shidima: Guess I needed some rubber duck debugging
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2020-03-19T15:17:21Z flip214: Can I tell CFFI:FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP to copy only elements 5 to 10 into a new lisp array? Apart from doing CFFI:INC-POINTER?
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2020-03-19T15:20:42Z pjb: flip214: you could use the address of the end of the field, and a decrement. So you would be doing a DEC-POINTER instead.
2020-03-19T15:21:19Z pjb: flip214: using the address of the end and a decrement was really a smart idea of early computings, this this avoided buffer overflow implicitely (the decrement couldn't be negative!).
2020-03-19T15:21:47Z pjb: flip214: basically C is a good low-level language.  What's to be thrown away, is the standard library, and almost all libraries written in C.
2020-03-19T15:22:23Z pjb: void* good_malloc(int size){ return ((char*)malloc(size))+size; }
2020-03-19T15:23:54Z oni-on-ion: =/
2020-03-19T15:24:32Z jmercouris: =), turn that frown upside down
2020-03-19T15:25:54Z oni-on-ion: C is fine for all the stuff we dont have to write =)
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2020-03-19T17:41:17Z shidima: Hmm, just finished the weblock/reblock quickstart. It seems like an intersting framework
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2020-03-19T18:35:25Z jcowan: Is it true that some Lisp objects belong only to class T?  Does this happen in practice?
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2020-03-19T18:38:52Z phoe: jcowan: don't think so
2020-03-19T18:39:18Z jcowan: Presumably an implementation could add a new kind of object without a CLOS type, though it seems stupid to do so.
2020-03-19T18:39:21Z phoe: at least not in standard Lisp
2020-03-19T18:39:27Z jcowan: Sure.
2020-03-19T18:39:49Z phoe: also what you said - implementations would prefer to have some sort of class for the objects, if only for segregation purposes
2020-03-19T18:40:40Z phoe: usually they're instances of built-in classes, since these are already the most get-your-hands-off-me kind of classes in Lisp
2020-03-19T18:41:45Z phoe: for objects that are absolutely the weirdest kinds, e.g. SBCL has SB-KERNEL::RANDOM-CLASS
2020-03-19T18:42:23Z Bike: you could phrase this as: an object that's a direct instance of T
2020-03-19T18:42:31Z Bike: it would be a silly thing to do but i don't think the standard disallows it
2020-03-19T18:43:50Z phoe: I think the same thing
2020-03-19T18:44:29Z jackdaniel: (make-instance 't²) ;)
2020-03-19T18:44:53Z Bike: clhs t
2020-03-19T18:44:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_t.htm
2020-03-19T18:45:08Z Bike: no mention
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2020-03-19T18:48:24Z phoe: if you want some implementation-defined fun, (sb-pcl:class-prototype (find-class 't))
2020-03-19T18:48:41Z phoe: that's a direct instance of class T
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2020-03-19T19:04:19Z aeth: pjb: standard-object doesn't really fit, either, because most of the advice also applies to structure-objects from structure-classes, not just standard-objects from standard-classes, at least iirc.
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2020-03-19T19:06:52Z Bike: also jcowan, you said "CLOS type", but just to be clear, a class doesn't need to support anything in CLOS except being dispatchable (i.e. the ability to distinguish members of the class from non members). the built in classes are usually like this.
2020-03-19T19:07:26Z jcowan nods.
2020-03-19T19:08:46Z aeth: (And it looks like conditions may or may not be standard-objects and are either instances of standard-classes or their own class type)
2020-03-19T19:09:16Z aeth: phoe: that's fun. #<unknown pointer object, lowtag=#x3 {1000565F43}>
2020-03-19T19:10:05Z aeth: Also (eq (sb-pcl:class-prototype (find-class 't)) (sb-pcl:class-prototype (find-class 't))) => T
2020-03-19T19:10:22Z phoe: aeth: does the standard mandate that (find-class 'condition) returns an actual class though?
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2020-03-19T19:11:00Z phoe: the standard seems pretty damn careful to avoid implying anywhere that condition types are actual classes. to me, it implies that a conforming CL implementation can implement conditions without even a system class named CONDITION.
2020-03-19T19:11:13Z Bike: clhs 4.3.7
2020-03-19T19:11:13Z specbot: Integrating Types and Classes: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_cg.htm
2020-03-19T19:11:30Z Bike: Figure 4-8 "Classes that correspond to pre-defined type specifiers" includes the standard condition types.
2020-03-19T19:11:34Z phoe: oh! yes, correct.
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2020-03-19T19:12:50Z phoe: this makes the standard even more bizarre to me
2020-03-19T19:13:40Z phoe: CL-defined condition types have classes, but user-defined condition types... aren't required to?
2020-03-19T19:13:44Z aeth: I'm guessing the standard is ambiguous about whether condition classes are standard-classes (e.g. ECL) or their own class (e.g. SBCL)
2020-03-19T19:14:07Z phoe: No, not really; it could state that condition types are system classes, at which point they can be implemented via built-in classes.
2020-03-19T19:14:55Z phoe: ...define-condition has the option :allocation :class though, which is kinda cheeky now that I think of it
2020-03-19T19:15:24Z Bike: "The metaclass of the class condition is not specified." in 9.1.1
2020-03-19T19:15:47Z Bike: it's dumb, anyway. they should just be classes
2020-03-19T19:16:34Z phoe: so much this
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2020-03-19T19:18:58Z aeth: The whole condition system seems... a bit unusable if you want to write a full, portable application. The larger problem is that you don't know what comes from most internal errors. e.g. (destructuring-bind (x) (list 1 2))
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2020-03-19T19:20:22Z aeth: And if your macros (if you have any) aren't full of DESTRUCTURING-BINDs, you're probably not writing them properly, since DEFMACRO's fancy lambda list won't help if there's an unspecified number of something from 0 to n, but a D-B gives you essentially the same API.
2020-03-19T19:20:38Z aeth: So a macro can't portably have the same error on different implementations.
2020-03-19T19:21:36Z Bike: yes, the conditions signaled by standard operators are definitely underspecified. i wouldn't go so far as saying that makes it unusable though. i mean how often do you even want to handle that kind of error?
2020-03-19T19:21:57Z aeth: literally every single macro I write if I could?
2020-03-19T19:22:07Z aeth: (define-condition macro-syntax-error (error) ...)
2020-03-19T19:22:09Z Bike: why? what are you going to do with them?
2020-03-19T19:22:33Z aeth: better error messages?
2020-03-19T19:23:04Z aeth: D-B will catch most macro syntax errors, but it won't let you tell the user what's wrong.
2020-03-19T19:23:33Z phoe: aeth: that's why I hacked around it and wrote my destructuring-bind*
2020-03-19T19:23:42Z jcowan: In R6RS Scheme, all conditions are subclasses of the standard class &condition, and vice versa
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2020-03-19T19:24:08Z phoe: jcowan: the last time I checked, same thing goes for all Lisp implementations other than SBCL
2020-03-19T19:24:16Z phoe: and even SBCL has condition classes, it's just that they aren't standard-objects
2020-03-19T19:24:50Z jcowan: however, since R6RS has no support for multiple inheritance, compound conditions are a separate type that is not a subclass of &condition
2020-03-19T19:25:02Z phoe: I checked CCL, ECL, ABCL, CLISP, Clasp, ACL, and LW - (find-class 'condition) is a standard-class
2020-03-19T19:25:16Z jcowan: Thanks!
2020-03-19T19:25:28Z aeth: Unfortunately, my trivial example works well enough in SBCL that you can figure out what's going on, probably, if you got this error: (defmacro foo (things) `(progn ,@(destructuring-bind (x) things (list x)))) (foo 1 2 3)
2020-03-19T19:25:42Z aeth: but it pretty quickly becomes cryptic and contextless
2020-03-19T19:25:57Z jcowan: One of the barriers to accepting R6RS was that it imposed a standard condition hierarchy that often contradicted what existing Scheme had (if anything)
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2020-03-19T20:20:20Z pjb: jcowan: well, the CL standard carefuly avoided to impose anything to contradict existing implementations at the time (in most cases).  I'm not sure it was a wise decision.  On one hand, few lisp implementations that existed at that time still exist now. On the other hand, this makes a standard that is way too under-specified.  It can be fun for language-lawyers, but it practice it's not helpful.
2020-03-19T20:24:12Z jcowan nods
2020-03-19T20:24:28Z jcowan: C took the attitude "Code is sacred, implementations are not" and I think that's a good position.
2020-03-19T20:27:19Z jcowan: Unfortunately they also took the position "Code with undefined behavior can break at any time", which is a major source of bitrot in C.
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2020-03-19T20:37:02Z jcowan: Admittedly some of the definitions of UB are just laziness on the WG's part.  For example, running a program that was compiled from a source code file that did not end in a newline is UB.
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2020-03-19T20:50:35Z Bike: for the next version they should say programs without a newline at the end have to be parsed and compiled as pascal. just to keep everyone on their toes
2020-03-19T20:50:44Z karlosz: fun fact, the fact that sbcl's condition is not a standard-class derives from the fact that ANSI didn't want to disturb spice lisp's condition hierarchy
2020-03-19T20:51:41Z karlosz: cmucl didn't integrate clos into its bootstrap process, and that's why it can't be a standard-class. sbcl preserves that quirk to this day
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2020-03-19T20:54:40Z karlosz: i don't think it would be easy to get conditions be standard-classes
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2020-03-19T20:56:52Z jackdaniel: talk about favourism :-)
2020-03-19T20:57:23Z dlowe: jcowan: I sense great optimization opportunities with that one.
2020-03-19T20:57:31Z dlowe: "this whole file can't happen so we can optimize it away"
2020-03-19T20:57:55Z jcowan: Oh no, more than that.  "This file is no good so we will kill our parent processes up to the login shell."
2020-03-19T20:58:02Z karlosz: well, it may not have all been cmu's fault, but certainly they would've had to do some extra work had standard-class been mandated to be the super class of condition
2020-03-19T20:58:04Z jcowan: Without an error message, of course
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2020-03-19T20:59:49Z jcowan: There are 191 UBs in C99, but probably a great many more in ANSI CL
2020-03-19T21:00:08Z jcowan: Oh, here's another win:  If an unmatched " or ' appears on a line, UB.
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2020-03-19T21:17:34Z Bike: CL has uh, schema? like calling a standard function with arguments that don't fit the types
2020-03-19T21:18:19Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, ouch. on the quotes -- is that C99 or ANSI CL ?
2020-03-19T21:18:28Z jcowan: C
2020-03-19T21:18:39Z oni-on-ion: ah=)
2020-03-19T21:19:22Z oni-on-ion: i would be curious to see the UB count for CL; but as for C, a lot of the UB has become Expected B
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2020-03-19T21:32:57Z asarch: (cpuinfo 0)
2020-03-19T21:34:16Z semz: doesn't CL tie a fair share of UB to the safety level? would be interesting to see how strongly the amount of UB varies between those
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2020-03-19T21:34:43Z semz: especially considering the old "(safety 0) is worse than C" saying
2020-03-19T21:34:51Z no-defun-allowed: "Symbolics CADDR Revision 3" 4.2e9 (:cdr-coding :eight-bit-type-tag :two-bit-gc :spectre :meltdown :avx4)
2020-03-19T21:35:42Z oni-on-ion: would be a good task for ml/dl
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2020-03-19T21:36:32Z oni-on-ion: wat
2020-03-19T21:37:26Z no-defun-allowed: asarch asked for CPU info.
2020-03-19T21:37:42Z Bike: safety isn't all. something as simple as (+ nil) is undefined behavior even at safety 3
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2020-03-19T21:38:19Z asarch: Although, more properly, (sb-ext:cpuinfo 0)
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2020-03-19T21:39:27Z aeth: dlowe: I mean, why isn't that a thing yet? Someone should do that for one of the CL C implementations so it can win on performance benchmarks.
2020-03-19T21:39:54Z oni-on-ion: asarch, can't find it =(
2020-03-19T21:40:08Z Bike: but, because we are not crazy people, implementations usually define it to be an error instead of going oh this must be unreachable, let us optimize
2020-03-19T21:40:32Z asarch: Because there is cpuinfo function
2020-03-19T21:40:53Z aeth: semz: (safety 0) is worse than C in SBCL because SBCL stops doing static checking as well as runtime checking when (safety 0) meaning that you can introduce things that SBCL normally would have (and C would have) caught
2020-03-19T21:41:07Z asarch: You have to write it using Assembly and call it from Common Lisp using CFFI
2020-03-19T21:41:09Z oni-on-ion: asarch, i would believe you, if not for Symbol "CPUINFO" not found in the SB-EXT package.
2020-03-19T21:41:29Z oni-on-ion: sighs
2020-03-19T21:41:36Z _death: proposal: introduce negative optimize values
2020-03-19T21:41:48Z aeth: Does CLHS specify what (+ 1 1) is or can we use our own arithmetic?
2020-03-19T21:42:15Z Bike: the CL standard does not define arithmetic, no
2020-03-19T21:42:23Z aeth: have #'+ just be bound to RANDOM except (+) which is probably specified to be 0...
2020-03-19T21:42:40Z oni-on-ion: (run-program "/bin/cat" '("/proc/cpuinfo"))
2020-03-19T21:42:44Z aeth: well, not really bound to RANDOM since the argument count can differ
2020-03-19T21:43:12Z oni-on-ion: random* with &rest
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2020-03-19T21:44:08Z asarch: https://pastebin.com/CeHgFzeR
2020-03-19T21:44:51Z _death: with (safety -3) an aref with invalid indices causes your screen to strobe, potentially inflicting epileptic seizures
2020-03-19T21:44:51Z aeth: oni-on-ion: (defun random* (&rest rest) (random (reduce #'+ rest :initial-value 1)))
2020-03-19T21:45:17Z oni-on-ion: asarch, ironically, considering it is x86, the user of this code would already at least know a bunch of their processor already ...
2020-03-19T21:45:23Z aeth: oni-on-ion: the best part is that it does in fact sum the value you want if you make the new CL:+ just be RANDOM*
2020-03-19T21:45:42Z oni-on-ion: hah
2020-03-19T21:45:45Z oni-on-ion: i like it
2020-03-19T21:45:56Z aeth: And (random*) is 0 since it's getting a random integer from 0 below 1 (since it starts with the initial value 1).
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2020-03-19T21:46:06Z oni-on-ion: yeah =) =)
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2020-03-19T21:47:58Z asarch: Yeah, I know :'-(
2020-03-19T21:48:11Z asarch: I wonder how to port that code to the AMD64 platform...
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2020-03-19T21:49:24Z no-defun-allowed: That is some very odd looking Lisp.
2020-03-19T21:49:41Z aeth: Slight correction, of course. You'd need to be able to take the absolute value of the input number but store the sign first, and then negate it if it was negative. And if 0 return 0. So it's not as simple as just using random*
2020-03-19T21:49:50Z oni-on-ion: i think its xml
2020-03-19T21:50:02Z oni-on-ion: aeth, or just doc the UB =)
2020-03-19T21:50:09Z Bike: the definition of negation isn't defined either
2020-03-19T21:50:18Z Bike: er, strike first three words
2020-03-19T21:50:25Z phoe: Is it defined behaviour to unintern keywords?
2020-03-19T21:50:32Z semz: Bike: Is (+ nil) UB because the standard doesn't require type checking or am I missing something?
2020-03-19T21:50:46Z phoe: semz: in safe code, this is required to signal an error
2020-03-19T21:50:54Z Bike: phoe: no, it actually is not.
2020-03-19T21:50:59Z semz: It's late so if it was a joke about something it's easily possible I missed it
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2020-03-19T21:51:07Z phoe: Bike: wait a second, it is not?
2020-03-19T21:51:11Z Bike: clhs 1.4.4.3
2020-03-19T21:51:11Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2020-03-19T21:51:15Z Bike: " Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated. "
2020-03-19T21:51:35Z Bike: the definition of + does not explicitly specify otherwise. it does say "Might signal type-error if some argument is not a number."
2020-03-19T21:51:56Z Bike: per clhs 1.4.2, this means that it's undefined behavior, but if an error is signaled that error must be of type type-error.
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2020-03-19T21:52:09Z phoe: yes, correct.
2020-03-19T21:52:22Z Bike: "an error should be signaled" is the terminology for when safety matters
2020-03-19T21:52:29Z phoe: right - thanks.
2020-03-19T21:52:44Z Bike: now, in my opinion, this is dumb
2020-03-19T21:52:45Z aeth: Lots of "should"s, not a lot of "must"s. I noticed this the other day.
2020-03-19T21:52:52Z phoe: in my opinion that's dumb too
2020-03-19T21:52:59Z aeth: I guess portability wasn't a part of the culture like it is now.
2020-03-19T21:53:01Z Bike: CAR and CDR and so on have "should signal" and that's fine
2020-03-19T21:53:16Z phoe: (+ nil) evaluating to 0 is kinda javascripty for my taste but permitted by the spec
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2020-03-19T21:53:28Z Bike: eugh. fuck that.
2020-03-19T21:53:51Z aeth: phoe: worse, it permits (+ nil) to be "nil" and (+ 0 nil) to be 0 and (+ nil 0) to be "nil0" :-)
2020-03-19T21:55:36Z phoe: (+ '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) ;=> (1 2 3 4 5 6)!!!
2020-03-19T21:55:44Z phoe: lemme submit a SBCL patch real quick
2020-03-19T21:55:49Z aeth: except, of course, you won't know if it's "NIL" or "nil" unless you know what the reader global variables are set to, e.g. *print-case*
2020-03-19T21:56:07Z phoe: but
2020-03-19T21:56:10Z phoe: Is it defined behaviour to unintern keywords?
2020-03-19T21:56:17Z aeth: phoe: on the other hand, it would permit (+ matrix-a matrix-b)
2020-03-19T21:56:34Z phoe: aeth: :thonk:
2020-03-19T21:56:43Z phoe: tempting, but I'll pass
2020-03-19T21:57:04Z aeth: As I've said many times, CL has matrices, it just doesn't define * (or in this case, +) for them.
2020-03-19T21:57:24Z _death: you can use word embeddings to have (+ (- 'king 'man) 'woman) ==> queen
2020-03-19T21:57:30Z oni-on-ion: phoe, ah, no that (+ '() '()) does not work =) i was going to say...
2020-03-19T21:57:52Z phoe: oni-on-ion: it's UB, so you just need to find an implementation that does what you want
2020-03-19T21:58:04Z phoe: if something is undefined, an implementation is permitted to define it
2020-03-19T21:58:11Z karlosz: you can just shadow cl:+ if you want to do that portably
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2020-03-19T21:58:43Z aeth: A 2D array is just a matrix...
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2020-03-19T21:58:55Z aeth: well, if you want to be technical, as long as it only contains numbers
2020-03-19T21:59:15Z aeth: But that can be deferred to evaluation of +, just like mapcar will attempt to run on an improper list and fail at the end
2020-03-19T21:59:30Z oni-on-ion: phoe, ah. true - i tried in sbcl. my prefferred behavior would be of course, '(1+4 2+5 3+6)
2020-03-19T21:59:46Z oni-on-ion: karlosz, yea=)
2020-03-19T22:00:35Z aeth: oni-on-ion: You probably mean `(,(+ 1 4) ...) but it's more amusing if you actually do mean create the symbols e.g. |1+4| :-)
2020-03-19T22:01:05Z jcowan: There are 136 instances of "consequences are undefined" in the CLHS, including the definition of the term and instances in issues
2020-03-19T22:01:17Z jcowan: So that's roughly comparable to the UBs in C99
2020-03-19T22:01:27Z aeth: jcowan: we're just talking about something that is "should" that should be "must", though.
2020-03-19T22:01:30Z aeth: So there's more!
2020-03-19T22:01:48Z Bike: no, the situation i described does use the phrase
2020-03-19T22:01:53Z aeth: ah, oops
2020-03-19T22:01:59Z oni-on-ion: aeth, heh. mixing syntaxes like its PC
2020-03-19T22:02:36Z jcowan: 744 shoulds, 851 musts, but I don't know if the CLHS was policed to eliminate instances that are not constraints on the implementers
2020-03-19T22:02:46Z jcowan: (R7RS was, and a bit of work it took, too)
2020-03-19T22:02:53Z aeth: oni-on-ion: I mean, I love mixing syntaxes... I wrote an infix s-expression macro for fun like #I(1 + 1 + 1) => (infix (1 + 1 + 1)) => (+ 1 1 1) => 3
2020-03-19T22:03:07Z jcowan: a lot of user-side 'must' had to be rewritten as 'it is an error if'
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2020-03-19T22:03:24Z jcowan backscroll
2020-03-19T22:03:30Z aeth: oni-on-ion: Also, Gitlab thinks that my .lisp file that I said is Common Lisp specifically in an override file is Scheme because I did such a good job at making the macro look like Scheme syntax :-)
2020-03-19T22:03:55Z aeth: It's like, "Yeah, you say that all *.lisp is Common Lisp, but we still are going to mark this as Scheme anyway."
2020-03-19T22:04:00Z oni-on-ion: aeth, yep! i made a split objc+smalltalk project long ago. bridging gaps might be my favorite part of IT/CS. there is a name for it ... technical something.
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2020-03-19T22:04:12Z oni-on-ion: connecting things that ain't previously
2020-03-19T22:04:38Z oni-on-ion: ew gitlab should have the same modes for all s-exp =)
2020-03-19T22:04:59Z oni-on-ion: any other highlighting is not that useful for lisp. but i use .cl for CL
2020-03-19T22:05:01Z aeth: oni-on-ion: amusingly, the syntax highlighting is incredibly different
2020-03-19T22:05:04Z phoe: lemme ask yet again
2020-03-19T22:05:20Z phoe: Is it defined behaviour to unintern stuff from the KEYWORD package?
2020-03-19T22:05:24Z aeth: oni-on-ion: This isn't the only time I'm going to be writing both languages side by side, and wow it's inconsistent. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/8594a76b78f49d0f908268257e10fc0dd86c85d1/CONTRIBUTING.md#example
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2020-03-19T22:05:56Z aeth: (Markdown uses the same highlighting as the source file pages)
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2020-03-19T22:06:21Z Bike: i don't see anything about uninterning keywords in the standard
2020-03-19T22:06:41Z oni-on-ion: aeth, ahh, yes i see. definately suggest special ext for airship =)
2020-03-19T22:06:45Z aeth: Also amusingly, the syntax highlighting of standard-procedures.lisp is correctly Common Lisp even though it's clearly marking the file as Scheme in its language detection because that's the only way they could possibly get it to 89.8% Scheme 10.2% CL
2020-03-19T22:06:51Z no-defun-allowed: Neither do I.
2020-03-19T22:07:26Z oni-on-ion: aeth, is this somethihg that gitlab staff should be made aware of ?
2020-03-19T22:07:51Z jcowan: I think the language marking is best-effort only
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2020-03-19T22:08:47Z jcowan: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyglot_(computing) for some programs that are simultaneously in several different languages, doing the same or different things
2020-03-19T22:08:53Z aeth: jcowan: it's just some really bad regex, like... if .lisp it's Common Lisp except if it has "define" in which case it's "Interlisp" (or some other niche Lisp)
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2020-03-19T22:09:38Z aeth: except it probably just uses it as a heuristic, so if you have a bunch of DEFUNs you're mostly fine, until you write a file that doesn't have any DEFUNs and just has a bunch of DEFINE-CONDITIONs
2020-03-19T22:10:05Z aeth: So essentially I need to do this in every repo if I remember: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/8594a76b78f49d0f908268257e10fc0dd86c85d1/.gitattributes
2020-03-19T22:10:11Z jcowan: phoe: I don't see any reason why (unintern :foo) is invalid
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2020-03-19T22:11:40Z phoe: that sorta makes it troublesome because then I can do stuff like (unintern :allow-other-keys :keyword) and who knows how it is going to work
2020-03-19T22:12:09Z phoe: since AFAIR there is no list of keywords defined to be untouchable
2020-03-19T22:12:25Z jcowan: both clisp and sbcl refuse to do it and return nil
2020-03-19T22:13:36Z jcowan: afaik keywords have no special meaning in functions that aren't defined by keyword lambdas, so (unintern :foo) means just what it appears to mean.
2020-03-19T22:13:54Z jcowan: you don't need :allow-other-keywords
2020-03-19T22:14:10Z jcowan: Digression: which optimization qualities are actually useful and used?
2020-03-19T22:14:15Z phoe: jcowan: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1711#1711
2020-03-19T22:14:42Z Bike: other than compilation-speed i think implemetnations use all of them
2020-03-19T22:14:44Z phoe: my SBCL actually performs that
2020-03-19T22:15:56Z phoe: jcowan: (unintern :foo) returns nil because :foo is not imported into your *package*
2020-03-19T22:16:13Z phoe: you need to explicitly specify the package
2020-03-19T22:16:16Z jcowan: sorry for the brain fart, I forgot that keywords are not (normally) present in any package except the keyword package
2020-03-19T22:17:25Z Bike: sbcl does seem to use compilation-speed in a couple places
2020-03-19T22:17:30Z aeth: :foo is just 'keyword:foo iirc
2020-03-19T22:17:47Z oni-on-ion: my opinion is that keywords add little usefulness to CL
2020-03-19T22:18:13Z aeth: oni-on-ion: You need keywords if you want to write macros without having to do what LOOP does (however it does it) with the symbols
2020-03-19T22:18:20Z oni-on-ion: no one uses regular symbols. may as well make symbols into keywords so we dont have to use the awful :syntax
2020-03-19T22:18:23Z aeth: (Or without exporting a dozen symbols that don't do anything)\
2020-03-19T22:18:28Z phoe: also this leads to obvious pathologies on SBCL such as https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1712#1712
2020-03-19T22:18:49Z oni-on-ion: aeth, does hygiene help that ?
2020-03-19T22:19:01Z aeth: oni-on-ion: I think :syntax and syntax: should be interchangable and both mean keyword, although I understand why CL did it the way it did, which makes :foo just implicitly insert 'keyword in front
2020-03-19T22:19:23Z Bike: what? why would "syntax:" mean that?
2020-03-19T22:19:26Z aeth: Because if :foo and foo: were both synonymous with 'keyword:foo then you could do this (foobar key: :value) and it would be clearer
2020-03-19T22:19:27Z oni-on-ion: aeth, i agree 1000000000% and i hope to see that in airship !
2020-03-19T22:19:47Z Bike: but then : doesn't separate package and symbo.
2020-03-19T22:19:47Z aeth: Right now you need to do (foobar :key :value) and it's a mess with multiple keys unless you have each pair on its own line as a convention
2020-03-19T22:19:53Z jcowan: Keywords are not (yet) standardized in Scheme, but various implementations accept some of (:foo foo: #:foo)
2020-03-19T22:20:06Z aeth: (foobar key1: :value1 key2: :value2) makes more sense in one liners
2020-03-19T22:20:07Z oni-on-ion: (open window: w title: "asdasd") its more english, too. as lisp is already the closest horizontal signal as prose
2020-03-19T22:20:27Z oni-on-ion: aeth, very much agree. did not see that side of it too.
2020-03-19T22:20:32Z jcowan: or none of the above, of course
2020-03-19T22:20:33Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, yep !! guile, chicken, chez =)
2020-03-19T22:20:40Z aeth: Bike: Yes, it makes it a bit less elegant of a language design in exchange for more readable one liners for keyword-argument functions
2020-03-19T22:20:54Z Bike: doesn't seem any mroe readable to me
2020-03-19T22:21:18Z jcowan: "In all lands custom is king."
2020-03-19T22:21:18Z phoe: { "key": "value" }
2020-03-19T22:21:26Z Bike: it's not like the values are always going to be keyword symbols, or even usual
2020-03-19T22:21:29Z jcowan: https://bitbucket.org/cowan/r7rs-wg1-infra/src/default/KeywordSyntax.md gives the nitty-gritty on what Schemes accept what.
2020-03-19T22:21:34Z phoe: or { key: value } if we're in JS
2020-03-19T22:21:36Z jcowan: The foo: syntax comes from DSSSL
2020-03-19T22:21:44Z aeth: Bike: consider (foobar :a :b :c :d :e :f :g :h) vs. (foobar a: :b c: :d e: :f g: :h)
2020-03-19T22:21:53Z aeth: a bit ugly, but it doesn't look as bad when they're not single letters
2020-03-19T22:22:05Z Bike:  i read that as a, b c, d e, f g, h
2020-03-19T22:22:05Z oni-on-ion: prefixcolon is the main reason i am not fully invested in CL. two reasons for this. in objective-c and smalltalk, colons are after the name of arguments. secondly, hebrew goes right to left -- and uses the colon for sentence seperators like english period '.' --- so ":key"  is... dyslexic at best.
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2020-03-19T22:22:18Z aeth: and ime the really complicated functions/macros/etc. that take in keyword arguments are also very likely to have keyword values for those keyword arguments, too, which makes things a massive mess unless you use multiple lines as a convention
2020-03-19T22:22:33Z Bike: actually no, i'm not going to argue syntax, what am i doing
2020-03-19T22:22:35Z oni-on-ion: jcowan, openstep property lists. i think.
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2020-03-19T22:22:58Z jcowan: I am messing about with a function that if done with keywords would allow 28 keyword arguments
2020-03-19T22:23:04Z jcowan: I think it's going to accept an alist instead.
2020-03-19T22:23:09Z jcowan: or a plis
2020-03-19T22:23:11Z jcowan: t
2020-03-19T22:23:33Z oni-on-ion: x_x
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2020-03-19T22:24:36Z jcowan: One irritating thing about alists and plists is that () is an instance of either, so you don't know what to do if you want to insert a key and value into ()
2020-03-19T22:24:47Z jcowan: should it return (key value) or ((key . value))?
2020-03-19T22:26:01Z oni-on-ion: UB!
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2020-03-19T22:27:08Z jcowan laughs
2020-03-19T22:27:11Z jcowan: Not this time
2020-03-19T22:27:31Z jcowan: Of course plists are mutated when possible, alists are not
2020-03-19T22:27:32Z phoe: jcowan: such functions exist
2020-03-19T22:27:39Z phoe quickloads drakma
2020-03-19T22:28:03Z aeth: jcowan: which is why any use of plists or alists should in fact actually be a plist or alist tail with an identifier as the first element, which I am actually going to enforce in my .sxp file format.
2020-03-19T22:28:47Z jcowan: I think a random special value like (list '@) is a better choice, as it does not break assoc etc.
2020-03-19T22:29:00Z aeth: well, you pass in cdr to functions like assoc
2020-03-19T22:29:02Z phoe: ;; any alist with an even number of cells is actually a plist, too
2020-03-19T22:29:06Z aeth: cdr is cheap
2020-03-19T22:29:16Z aeth: cons is, too, so tagging it is also cheap
2020-03-19T22:29:22Z jcowan: aeth: true phoe say what?
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2020-03-19T22:29:58Z aeth: jcowan: ((key . key) (value . value))
2020-03-19T22:29:59Z phoe: jcowan: ((a . 1) (b . 2)) is a plist containing one pair, where the key is (a . 1) and the value is (b . 2)
2020-03-19T22:30:52Z phoe: thanks for attending my ted talk
2020-03-19T22:30:57Z phoe goes to sleep for real now
2020-03-19T22:31:04Z aeth: phoe: plagiarism :-p
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2020-03-19T22:33:07Z jcowan: I don't think plist indicators can be pairs: the definition of property indicator refers to name, which (absent special context) is an identifier
2020-03-19T22:33:23Z jcowan: It took me some time to make sure of that
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2020-03-19T22:35:12Z phoe: property list n. 1. a list containing an even number of elements that are alternating names (sometimes called indicators or keys) and values (sometimes called properties). When there is more than one name and value pair with the identical name in a property list, the first such pair determines the property.
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2020-03-19T22:51:44Z _death: phoe: the glossary definition may not state it explicitly, but the names are intended to be symbols.. in particular, GETF is one of the few CL functions that uses EQ for comparison (so numbers/characters make for really bad property indicators...) .. the same goes for catch tags by the way
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2020-03-19T23:00:28Z jcowan: Exactly.  And name n., v.t. 1. n. an identifier by which an object, a binding, or an exit point is referred to by association using a binding. 2. v.t. to give a name to. 3. n. (of an object having a name component) the object which is that component. ``The string which is a symbol's name is returned by symbol-name.'' 4. n. (of a pathname) a. the name component, returned by pathname-name. b. the entire namestring, returned
2020-03-19T23:00:29Z jcowan: by namestring. 5. n. (of a character) a string that names the character and that has length greater than one. (All non-graphic characters are required to have names unless they have some implementation-defined attribute which is not null. Whether or not other characters have names is implementation-dependent.)
2020-03-19T23:01:14Z jcowan: definition 1 is the relevant one, because 2 is a verb, 3 is about name components, 4 about pathnames and 5 about characters.  A cons is not a name.
2020-03-19T23:01:42Z jcowan: identifier n. 1. a symbol used to identify or to distinguish names. 2. a string used the same way.
2020-03-19T23:02:25Z aeth: heh, I guess jcowan knows about language standards
2020-03-19T23:03:33Z jcowan: so I guess a property indicator can be a string technically, but then getf will not be able to find it unless very special precautions are taken to make sure that the key on the plist and the key being getfed are eq.
2020-03-19T23:03:39Z jcowan: getf'ed
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2020-03-19T23:20:16Z jcowan: So yes, in order to be useful a property indicator must be a symbol
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2020-03-19T23:44:32Z iAmDecim: is it bad that i'm happy to now be quarantined...?  my job is shutting down for a few weeks.  I have a few books i've wanted to deep dive in to.
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2020-03-19T23:47:48Z no-defun-allowed: Not at all.
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2020-03-20T00:14:35Z moon-child: anyone know about cl-opengl?
2020-03-20T00:15:16Z moon-child: for which of its functions (if any) do I have to multiply the length parameter by the size of an individual object?
2020-03-20T00:15:52Z moon-child: Like, where in c I would say   5 * sizeof(float),   when do I have to include the sizeof(float)?
2020-03-20T00:16:56Z no-defun-allowed: I would hope the answer is none.
2020-03-20T00:17:09Z no-defun-allowed: There isn't a sizeof in Lisp, so it wouldn't make much sense.
2020-03-20T00:17:20Z oni-on-ion: about to say, no need. but you would probably like to know how to get those data types for use with cl-opengl
2020-03-20T00:19:29Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: right, but 'float' has a defined size (likely 4) on the host, since opengl is a c library
2020-03-20T00:20:04Z moon-child: oni-on-ion: it has some helper functions.  I found an example usage, but it's relatively simple.  Notably it had 0 for the specific parameters I was concerned about, so size wouldn't matter
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2020-03-20T00:54:54Z aeth: moon-child: I don't think you have to, because CFFI is type aware so it's probably doing those conversions. I'm not 100% sure, though
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2020-03-20T00:55:22Z aeth: there are some simple test cases that could be written, treating the same foreign array pointer as two different things, to test.
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2020-03-20T01:06:12Z |3b|: when using the "low-level" api in CL-OpenGL (the %GL package), you would have to pass sizes as octets where you would in C (so multiply by sizeof or whatever, cffi:foreign-type-size can tell you that, though the sizes are pretty much fixed so you can just use 4 for single-float)
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2020-03-20T01:07:22Z |3b|: the "high-level" APIs (GL: package) should calculate sizes as needed, though the APIs it has for buffer objects aren't a very good fit to modern GL, so i usually just use %GL: for that
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2020-03-20T01:15:45Z aeth: ah, sorry, that's right, I have a bunch of constants for the sizes that I pass in because I mostly use %GL now... it's been a while
2020-03-20T01:15:53Z aeth: It's pretty clearly part of the function API when it's required, though
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2020-03-20T01:33:54Z aeth: By the way, the reason to use %GL over GL is that GL copies, while with %GL you can use a library like static-vectors to avoid copying. This can save minutes.
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2020-03-20T01:46:06Z moon-child: aeth, |3b|: ahh, that is helpful
2020-03-20T01:46:13Z moon-child: thank you!
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2020-03-20T03:46:05Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a way that I can print the backtrace of another thread?
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2020-03-20T03:51:17Z oni-on-ion: got to raise a signal
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2020-03-20T03:51:38Z oni-on-ion: in the other thread
2020-03-20T03:53:21Z no-defun-allowed: bt:interrupt-thread appears to work how I want in SBCL.
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2020-03-20T04:15:28Z moon-child: oh, yeah, huh, you totally have to pass actual sizes with the gl: api
2020-03-20T04:15:34Z moon-child: (not just lengths)
2020-03-20T04:18:07Z moon-child: aeth: if you work directly with a gl-array (using the gl: api), does it still copy?
2020-03-20T04:19:11Z aeth: It's been a while, but I think gl-array is the mechanism it uses to copy? But I mean, maybe there's a way to initialize a new one
2020-03-20T04:19:15Z aeth: static-vectors is way easier, though
2020-03-20T04:20:17Z aeth: static-vectors gives you a CL-native array that also doubles as a C array, at the expense of being static (i.e. not movable by the GC) and probably (though not certainly) something you have to manually free
2020-03-20T04:20:54Z aeth: but freeing something in a game engine is just a matter of unwind-protect (and there probably is already a with-foo macro that does this)
2020-03-20T04:21:08Z moon-child: Oh, hmmm.  In static memory--that means there's a limited amount you can have allocated at a given time?
2020-03-20T04:21:58Z aeth: I think it's heap memory that's static in the sense of not being movable by the GC, although I could be wrong.
2020-03-20T04:22:05Z aeth: I've used it for huge things and haven't noticed failure
2020-03-20T04:22:12Z aeth: This is graphcs, things can get huge.
2020-03-20T04:22:17Z aeth: *graphics
2020-03-20T04:22:52Z moon-child: ok, cool
2020-03-20T04:23:14Z moon-child: I've still not decided if I'm going to do 3d yet--probably will, but we'll see
2020-03-20T04:23:33Z moon-child: if not, then I might end up not needing the static-vectors, but it's good to know about
2020-03-20T04:24:28Z aeth: well, it took a ~3 minute startup time to an unnoticable one in a (2D, but generated into flat 3D geometry) map test
2020-03-20T04:24:34Z aeth: large map.
2020-03-20T04:24:55Z aeth: It's not so much 2D vs. 3D as the size of the data.
2020-03-20T04:25:22Z moon-child: well sure, but a single 3d model is already pretty big
2020-03-20T04:25:31Z moon-child: And--wow, that is a big difference
2020-03-20T04:26:16Z aeth: well, if your 2D is just one big quad or something, then, yes... this was terrain that could have in theory added height at some point
2020-03-20T04:26:58Z aeth: terrain can get very large (Minecraft is sort of the worst case, since it's voxel... and those world files are GB)
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2020-03-20T05:02:03Z Josh_2: how do I get the return value from calling (bt:make-thread ..) ?
2020-03-20T05:03:01Z Josh_2: the value that is returned by running the thread in the background
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2020-03-20T05:05:20Z aeth: Josh_2: I think it's this: (bt:join-thread (bt:make-thread (lambda () 42) :name "foo")) => 42
2020-03-20T05:05:44Z aeth: note that that will wait for termination
2020-03-20T05:06:16Z aeth: documentation puts it under debugging though, so, hmm... https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation#Introspectiondebugging
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2020-03-20T05:06:34Z Josh_2: aeth: I'll give that a shot thanks :)
2020-03-20T05:10:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-20T05:12:11Z Josh_2: Mornin' beach
2020-03-20T05:12:34Z Josh_2: aeth: worked thanks. I had tried (join-thread .. ) earlier but wasn't working, changed it up a bit now and It's working
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2020-03-20T06:46:07Z moon-child: to make a with-macro, do you have to do   (allocate-resource) (let ((res (progn ,@body)) (release-resource) res)?  Can you avoid the 'let'?
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2020-03-20T06:47:25Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I would write (let ((resource (acquire-resource))) (unwind-protect (progn ,@body) (release-resource resource)))
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2020-03-20T06:53:48Z Josh_2: even better would be to write a macro like (with-resource .. body ) that wraps the unwind :P
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2020-03-20T07:00:33Z moon-child: Josh_2: yes; I'm asking about the best way to write that macro
2020-03-20T07:00:37Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: what is unwind-protect?
2020-03-20T07:00:48Z no-defun-allowed: clhs unwind-protect
2020-03-20T07:00:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm
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2020-03-20T08:06:45Z flip214: Josh_2: about thread return values, look at lparallel
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2020-03-20T08:28:12Z phoe: moon-child: ensures that a block of code is executed unconditionally when control leaves the protected form
2020-03-20T08:28:41Z phoe: so basically when the function returns, when an error handler or a GO or a THROW performs a non-local transfer of control, the cleanup forms are executed
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2020-03-20T10:47:10Z ldb: how should one develop their own style of writing lisp?
2020-03-20T10:47:20Z Josh_2: By writing lisp?
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2020-03-20T10:52:14Z no-defun-allowed: Mostly that, and looking at other peoples' styles and deciding what you like.
2020-03-20T10:55:24Z phoe: write code, submit it for review, think about the results, rinse, repeat
2020-03-20T10:57:29Z ldb: yes, but i'm curious if you can think of a particular project/book that have influenced your coding style?
2020-03-20T10:58:53Z phoe: google and LUV style guides
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2020-03-20T10:59:02Z Shinmera: All of the ones I've written have influenced my  coding style
2020-03-20T10:59:29Z Josh_2: well when I read Sonya Keene's OOP in CL, I decided to write some OOP and then realized that it becomes quite messy quite quickly xD
2020-03-20T10:59:40Z phoe: also many of the ones I've read have influenced my coding style
2020-03-20T11:00:05Z phoe: but then nothing in particular; alexandria, split-sequence, Shinmera's libs, beach's code, implementation source code
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2020-03-20T11:00:29Z phoe: their LOOP and FORMAT sources; just a big bunch of everything
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2020-03-20T11:16:48Z TMA: some articles on program design [a concrete example popped into mind: for many macros there usually is some function that can do the exact thing as the macro, except the interface is cumbersome -- the &body needs to be wrapped in a (lambda () ...) for example; even if that function does not exist, it probably should]
2020-03-20T11:18:29Z no-defun-allowed: Many macros of CLIM are like that, where WITH-FOO expands to CALL-WITH-FOO.
2020-03-20T11:18:45Z TMA: [... and the macro can be straightforwardly expressed by constructing the cumbersome scaffolding and calling the function]
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2020-03-20T11:19:05Z TMA: that's the pattern
2020-03-20T11:19:22Z ldb: because it's the syntax that matters
2020-03-20T11:25:07Z phoe: see the MOP as well
2020-03-20T11:25:28Z phoe: ensure-class, ensure-generic-function
2020-03-20T11:25:42Z phoe: defclass and defgeneric expand into these
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2020-03-20T11:30:59Z beach: ldb: You should not develop your own style.  You should use established conventions.
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2020-03-20T11:44:37Z ldb: beach: true. but conventions have been evolving
2020-03-20T11:46:31Z beach: Absolutely.  Not very fast though.  You should try to use the most recent ones, of course.
2020-03-20T11:54:44Z Posterdati: hi
2020-03-20T11:55:17Z Josh_2: 'ello
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2020-03-20T11:56:33Z beach: ldb: Despite its age, PAIP has some fairly conventional-looking code.
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2020-03-20T11:56:58Z beach: ldb: It has a lot less object-oriented code than you would find these days perhaps.
2020-03-20T11:57:37Z beach: Common Lisp Recipies looks good too, but the code snippets are small.
2020-03-20T11:57:56Z beach: PCL looks fairly good, but there is some strange indentation in some examples.
2020-03-20T11:59:06Z beach: ldb: You could also look at some existing real projects.  I am fairly pleased with the Cluffer library, for instance.
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2020-03-20T13:07:31Z tourjin: how do I read progn? how does it sound?
2020-03-20T13:07:57Z beach: prog-enn
2020-03-20T13:08:10Z tourjin: thank you.
2020-03-20T13:08:49Z beach: Sure.
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2020-03-20T18:21:30Z shrysr: is the only use of elisp within emacs or controlled by emacs?
2020-03-20T18:22:19Z jackdaniel: shrysr: this channel is focused on common lisp, you may want to ask this on #emacs (eventually on ##lisp)
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2020-03-20T18:23:34Z shrysr: okay. I am on #emacs. thought it was more a #lisp thing. what is the difference between #lisp and ##lisp ?
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2020-03-20T18:24:42Z jackdaniel: #lisp is focused on Common Lisp while ##lisp is about any lisp-like language
2020-03-20T18:24:47Z shrysr: ok i see ##lisp is for all the lisps. ty jackdaniel
2020-03-20T18:24:54Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-03-20T18:29:25Z oni-on-ion: that is not at all confusing or arbitrary
2020-03-20T18:29:34Z pjb: shrysr: http://cliki.net/IRC
2020-03-20T18:30:12Z oni-on-ion: why not ###lisp for sbcl, ####lisp for clim, #####lisp for scheme ?
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2020-03-20T18:32:26Z shrysr: ty pjb. well arbitrary or not... atleast there is a wiki to explain.
2020-03-20T18:32:56Z jackdaniel: it is as it is, maybe it is confusing and arbitrary, but changing it after so many years would be even more confusing
2020-03-20T18:34:01Z jcowan: #lisp is more or less grandfathered
2020-03-20T18:34:42Z jcowan: Theoretically #foo is for a channel supported by the organization around Foo, whereas ##foo is not.  So joining #c redirects you to ##c.
2020-03-20T18:35:07Z jcowan: since the ISO WG has no interest in sponsoring an IRC channel
2020-03-20T18:36:56Z oni-on-ion: cant redirect #lisp to #common-lisp or something automatically ? expecting new users to check a wiki may a bit hopeful
2020-03-20T18:37:38Z oni-on-ion: idk roadsigns are put at forks, not after someone already took a turn
2020-03-20T18:37:40Z jackdaniel: can't, let's drop this fruitless discussion.
2020-03-20T18:38:35Z oni-on-ion: let us continue to support the rotten fruits by manually reminding everyone nearly every day that this is specifically for common lisp.
2020-03-20T18:39:26Z jackdaniel: OK, lets :) so, anyone is hacking on something interesting with CL now?
2020-03-20T18:39:40Z oni-on-ion: i've seen channels redirect on freenode before. not wanting to is different than "can't". but i understand.
2020-03-20T18:41:09Z shrysr: oni-on-ion: lotsa coffeeeeee phase? ;-)
2020-03-20T18:41:28Z oni-on-ion: hm?
2020-03-20T18:44:22Z oni-on-ion: it happens a lot. as a programmer, i like to think that recurring problems can be optimised and solved.
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2020-03-20T19:05:54Z dlowe: Redirects have to be set up by server ops, and they are serious about enforcing the ## convention if it comes up
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2020-03-20T19:06:41Z dlowe: oni-on-ion: like most warts in lisp, it's that way for historical reasons :)
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2020-03-20T19:08:14Z parjanya: jcowan: grandfathered?
2020-03-20T19:08:53Z jcowan: Something which continues to exist, despite violating a rule, simply because it has been in effect for a long time and it would be too disruptive to change now.
2020-03-20T19:08:57Z oni-on-ion: dlowe, ahh... good point, actually =) mind at ease
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2020-03-20T19:09:13Z jcowan: The idea is that if you grandfather was allowed to do something, you are too.
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2020-03-20T19:09:45Z parjanya: jcowan: oh I see, like treating a grandfather as wrong but beyond fixing ; )
2020-03-20T19:10:23Z jcowan: Yes.  In the American South in the bad old days, black people could only vote if they could prove that their grandfathers had voted also.  That hardly ever happened.
2020-03-20T19:10:34Z jcowan: (in some places, not the whole South)
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2020-03-20T19:13:08Z Bike: they put in new rules that you had to pay a poll tax and other evil things, but if you could prove your grandfather had voted you were grandfathered in and could skip those. the net effect of which was obviously to disenfranchise black people without explicitly segregating them, but that's not part of the phrase any more
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2020-03-20T21:12:03Z pjb: Bike: in anycase, democracy can only work if you have a homogeneous population.
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2020-03-20T21:15:56Z no-defun-allowed: 🤔
2020-03-20T21:18:11Z Shinmera: This ain't #lispcafe.
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2020-03-21T04:55:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-21T08:24:11Z jackdaniel: o/
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2020-03-21T13:17:13Z Myral: hi
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2020-03-21T13:38:59Z beach: Hello Myral.
2020-03-21T13:40:06Z beach: Myral: Many people here have families and they are busy doing other things during the weekend.
2020-03-21T13:42:07Z beach: Myral: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2020-03-21T14:34:32Z phoe: heyyyyyy
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2020-03-21T14:36:38Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2020-03-21T14:48:08Z phoe: Hey beach.
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2020-03-21T16:19:46Z slyrus__: morning
2020-03-21T16:20:26Z slyrus__: many years ago when I used hunchentoot a fair bit, the hunchentoot.{org,net,com} domain names were untaken, so I grabbed them. Does anyone want them?
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2020-03-21T16:23:21Z edgar-rft: maybe frank zappa
2020-03-21T16:24:54Z beach: That would be his children in that case.
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2020-03-21T16:25:24Z edgar-rft: he'll sue you at the last judgement
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2020-03-21T20:49:07Z sabrac: quiet day
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2020-03-21T21:20:06Z jmercouris: attaching to SBCL in Xcode seems to crash SBCL?
2020-03-21T21:20:13Z jmercouris: or freeze it rather
2020-03-21T21:20:19Z jmercouris: anyone else have this experience?
2020-03-21T21:21:33Z jmercouris: Dtrace in general seems to hang SBCL
2020-03-21T21:21:34Z jmercouris: interesting
2020-03-21T21:21:38Z jmercouris: at least on macOS
2020-03-21T21:22:12Z sabrac: which macOS?
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2020-03-21T21:22:35Z jmercouris: 10.15.3
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2020-03-21T21:24:22Z sabrac: I am too far behind you to be of help. Sorry
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2020-03-21T21:33:31Z phoe: jmercouris: try #sbcl
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2020-03-21T21:34:46Z jmercouris: OK, thank you
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2020-03-22T01:52:17Z pfdietz: In what?
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2020-03-22T04:04:33Z jcowan: pjb: My country, at least, is completely homogeneous: all the citizens are human.
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2020-03-22T04:19:04Z no-defun-allowed: jcowan: Which one?
2020-03-22T04:19:22Z jcowan: The U.S., but I don't think it matters.
2020-03-22T04:19:26Z no-defun-allowed: Then you have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_That_Owns_Itself
2020-03-22T04:20:02Z jcowan: Perhaps.  But it's not a citizen.
2020-03-22T04:20:45Z jcowan: (In addition, jus soli means that everyone born in the U.S. is a citizen, with the embarrassing exception of American Samoa.)
2020-03-22T04:22:08Z oni-on-ion: hawaii ?
2020-03-22T04:23:14Z jcowan: Hawaii is a state, so its residents are citizens.  The inhabitants of other non-states like Puerto Rico are citizens as well.
2020-03-22T04:24:27Z jcowan: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
2020-03-22T04:24:28Z oni-on-ion: i ask hawaii because samoa
2020-03-22T04:25:23Z jcowan: See, there was a coup in Hawai'i instituted by some Americans living there who overthrew the monarchy and applied for admission to the U.S. as a territory. It took decades to become a state, but it finally did.
2020-03-22T04:25:51Z oni-on-ion: ah oops sorry for contributing to offtopic, Shinmera . jcowan you are responding to something that was disapproved of and recommended to be #lispcafe
2020-03-22T04:26:09Z jcowan: Sorry, I didn't notice that.
2020-03-22T04:26:16Z oni-on-ion: they do talk about this stuff in there a lot, im sure you would like it =)
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2020-03-22T05:32:43Z White_Flame: huh, I know the clhs isn't blemish-free, but is the description for prog2 really that obviously wrong? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm
2020-03-22T05:32:50Z White_Flame: says it returns first-form instead of second-form
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2020-03-22T05:37:25Z no-defun-allowed: Yup.
2020-03-22T05:37:42Z no-defun-allowed: Take a peep at https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata
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2020-03-22T05:45:18Z oni-on-ion: whoa. should there be a revised version available for CLHS lookup ? as opposed to downloading the lispworks website version for slime
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2020-03-22T06:24:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-22T06:29:59Z usney: hi guys
2020-03-22T06:30:41Z usney: Why should I program in lisp?
2020-03-22T06:30:50Z usney: I am new to it
2020-03-22T06:31:05Z usney: is it easy to learn?
2020-03-22T06:31:23Z no-defun-allowed: It's less annoying to learn, from my experience.
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2020-03-22T06:34:48Z usney: cool even easier to learn than python? no-defun-allowed
2020-03-22T06:35:14Z White_Flame: lisp is very regular.  python is very pragmatic
2020-03-22T06:35:18Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, there's less syntax and it's more interactive.
2020-03-22T06:36:02Z White_Flame: and yeah, python's repl sucks :-P
2020-03-22T06:36:09Z White_Flame: so many things you can't do in it
2020-03-22T06:36:27Z usney: is lisp scriptable or can I only run it if it is compiled?
2020-03-22T06:37:01Z White_Flame: you can create and run .lisp scripts, but the common case is running lisp code from inside a running lisp
2020-03-22T06:37:17Z White_Flame: given its heritage as an OS
2020-03-22T06:37:36Z White_Flame: you can also of course deploy executables
2020-03-22T06:37:39Z no-defun-allowed: Many implementations compile code, but it is still done dynamically.
2020-03-22T06:38:37Z White_Flame: usney: what languages do you already know?
2020-03-22T06:38:38Z usney: I see
2020-03-22T06:38:46Z usney: I just know a little python
2020-03-22T06:39:06Z usney: also a little bash scripting but that is not a programming language
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2020-03-22T06:41:05Z White_Flame: minion: tell usney about pcl
2020-03-22T06:41:05Z minion: usney: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-03-22T06:41:31Z White_Flame: a commonly recommended learning resource, especially if you have some programming under your belt
2020-03-22T06:43:09Z White_Flame: also, #clschool is good for specific newbie questions, as discussions here will often get into "you already need to know lisp to understand the answer" territory ;)
2020-03-22T06:43:30Z usney: how is lisp an os? is that guix os?
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2020-03-22T06:43:48Z White_Flame: lisp was teh OS of lisp machines in the 70s/80s
2020-03-22T06:44:03Z usney: oh okay I will go to that channel
2020-03-22T06:44:42Z usney: is this the same lisp that rms uses?
2020-03-22T06:45:45Z White_Flame: I don't know what he uses.  Emacs has elisp running in it, there's Guile scheme under the GNU project, etc
2020-03-22T06:46:15Z beach: I seriously doubt that rms is using Common Lisp.
2020-03-22T06:46:17Z White_Flame: this channel, and typically the term "Lisp" itself, refers to "Common Lisp", which is a specifciation of the language
2020-03-22T06:46:49Z White_Flame: scheme, elisp, autolisp, picolisp, etc are all separate langauges that aren't CL
2020-03-22T06:47:25Z White_Flame: because it's so easy to create a lisp from scratch, basically
2020-03-22T06:48:09Z usney: oh okay thank you so much for asking my basic questions
2020-03-22T06:48:19Z White_Flame: np
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2020-03-22T07:02:03Z oni-on-ion: its like gardening
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2020-03-22T11:42:46Z sabrac: should (ccl:lookup-hostname "localhost") return something other than nil?
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2020-03-22T11:46:11Z phoe: that should return 127.0.0.1
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2020-03-22T11:53:48Z Posterdati: hi
2020-03-22T11:53:52Z Josh_2: H
2020-03-22T11:53:54Z Josh_2: hi*
2020-03-22T11:54:02Z Posterdati: is anyone playing in google kick start?
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2020-03-22T11:54:40Z sabrac: phoe: that is what I thought. Obviously I am doing something wrong
2020-03-22T11:54:51Z phoe: sabrac: or it's a CCL bug
2020-03-22T11:56:48Z phoe: ...I cannot reproduce it though
2020-03-22T11:56:51Z phoe: ? (format t "~X" (ccl:lookup-hostname "localhost"))
2020-03-22T11:56:51Z phoe: 7F000001
2020-03-22T11:57:02Z phoe: that's a 127.0.0.1 that I see there
2020-03-22T11:57:12Z sabrac: As usual something wrong on my side
2020-03-22T11:58:15Z phoe: that's on 1.12-dev.5 though
2020-03-22T11:59:01Z MichaelRaskin: What is in /etc/hosts ?
2020-03-22T11:59:48Z sabrac: If I run ccl from a terminal, it does the right thing. If I run if from inside emacs, I get nil. Will restart emacs and see if it still is weird, then will look at my emacs config
2020-03-22T12:01:40Z sabrac: Now it works running from a repl in emacs. So it has just decided to spend today laughing at me
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2020-03-22T13:26:58Z z147: I'm interested in medical expert systems and their implementation via CL. I also need to read up on the current state of the field. So far, I have Norvig on my reading list, and am going to review the medical initiatives lambdanative have going. I'd appreciate some pointers/ keywords as far as books, must-read articles etc for the field.
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2020-03-22T13:30:44Z z147: OPS5 is also on the list
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2020-03-22T13:33:02Z beach: z147: There is also "The Handbook of Artificial Intelligence", but the version I have is old, and I don't know whether there is a new edition of it.
2020-03-22T13:33:48Z z147: beach, the cambridge one?
2020-03-22T13:34:36Z beach: This one is from Stanford, apparently.
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2020-03-22T13:35:46Z z147: they sure like the name
2020-03-22T13:35:51Z z147: i'll look into it, thanks
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2020-03-22T13:36:51Z beach: Chapter VIII in Volume II in this edition.
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2020-03-22T13:37:34Z beach: I am not even sure they do AI that way anymore.
2020-03-22T13:38:26Z z147: oh, screw "AI" they most certainly are not doing "AI" like that anymore because it's all statistics with no solution to edge cases in sight
2020-03-22T13:38:33Z beach: Though I guess for medical systems, they probably would not use neural nets.  They need to have the system explain its decisions.
2020-03-22T13:38:34Z z147: but the rule systems do work, and i'm going to do those
2020-03-22T13:38:46Z z147: beach, yeah, it actually has to make sense
2020-03-22T13:38:51Z z147: not a popular approach at the moment
2020-03-22T13:39:09Z z147: they're using neural for sorting, as it should be
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2020-03-22T13:39:39Z z147: for example x-ray flagging for possible diagnosis, etc
2020-03-22T13:39:39Z z147: but rule based is perfect for triage etc
2020-03-22T13:39:42Z z147: and it'll be nice to work on a product that actually works
2020-03-22T13:39:50Z White_Flame: the state of the art for production rules systems has basically moved into "business rules engines" as fas as I can tell
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2020-03-22T13:41:03Z z147: White_Flame, at some point, when the madness settles, there's going to be a medical conference on emergency medicine i'd like to attend to meet a few experts and talk about diagnostics and automating it, but i need to prepare my basics
2020-03-22T13:41:52Z White_Flame: well, if you do want to propose some Real Business, PM me because we've got good tech in that space
2020-03-22T13:42:07Z z147: franz has a list of expert systems that are pretty business oriented
2020-03-22T13:42:46Z z147: White_Flame, that's what i'd like to find out, if the doctors are willing to be pointed out wrong by a system
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2020-03-22T13:49:12Z White_Flame: yeah, that's obviously something that's not a technical issue
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2020-03-22T13:54:19Z z147: but it's going to affect the marketability very strongly
2020-03-22T13:55:26Z z147: so I suppose I'll have to do a machine learning vs rules only comparison due to trends in the market at the moment
2020-03-22T13:56:04Z MichaelRaskin: The problem with machine learning is that it is optimised for comparisons that are easy to do with the available data
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2020-03-22T13:57:58Z White_Flame: machine learning is a statistics reinforcer.  that's like the opposite of what you want to handle edge cases
2020-03-22T14:00:19Z z147: exactly, and i'll have to argue my point
2020-03-22T14:00:37Z z147: because a lot of "cited" "cutting-edge" research is machine learning in diagnostics
2020-03-22T14:01:40Z z147: just as MichaelRaskin pointed out, one example would be someone touting their "efficient" triage system trained on past patient data
2020-03-22T14:02:00Z z147: it shows their system could perform "better" diagnosis on the patients in the data.
2020-03-22T14:02:00Z MichaelRaskin: Efficient on average, yes
2020-03-22T14:02:16Z z147: somehow the trial phase where they use it on NEW patients is conveniently ommitted
2020-03-22T14:02:52Z MichaelRaskin: It is often present, actually
2020-03-22T14:03:36Z z147: MichaelRaskin, tips towards must reads appreciated
2020-03-22T14:04:03Z _death: the field you're talking about has a long history, at least going to the 1960s.. you seem to simultaneously have strong opinions while asking for basic information
2020-03-22T14:04:15Z MichaelRaskin: I think there was a case where they «reliably distinguished» two diagnoses which are basically two schools of naming the same thing.
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2020-03-22T14:06:09Z z147: _death, would you happen to have a recommendation as far as information?
2020-03-22T14:07:17Z White_Flame: we looked for good, semi-modern resources some years back, and found practically nothing
2020-03-22T14:07:42Z White_Flame: we basically built our system from first principles, desiring GOFAI as a programming environment
2020-03-22T14:07:50Z White_Flame: as everything else was off in busines modeling land
2020-03-22T14:09:32Z z147: White_Flame, what's the field of application?
2020-03-22T14:09:57Z White_Flame: general purpose software, automation of processes
2020-03-22T14:10:03Z MichaelRaskin: I think A.Colyer has relatively recently wrote a review about a system that learns a neural net, then uses the neural net to learn a rule system (which can then be reviewed by a domain expert).
2020-03-22T14:11:03Z White_Flame: the great thing about proper rule programming is that it completely decouples you from managing a program counter at all.  The system simply notices state and reacts to it
2020-03-22T14:11:38Z White_Flame: regardless of how the state got there, and without having to ensure you have calls & hooks enabled in all the right places
2020-03-22T14:12:03Z White_Flame: and which of course also decouples a lot of error handling as well
2020-03-22T14:12:27Z _death: z147: there are many books about the history of expert systems.. one famous system was DENDRAL, writtein in Lisp during the 1960s.. in the late 1980s Bayesian networks caused a revolution in the field, and they are still going strong.. there is research on interpretable machine learning, not just for medicine but for other fields where it is critical to understand why a diagnosis or prognosis was made
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2020-03-22T14:17:10Z dmiles: yeah the GOFAI being the helper system to write prograsms somehow slipped everyones mind
2020-03-22T14:17:51Z White_Flame: yep, as encapsulated in the term "expert system _shell_" that is no longer used
2020-03-22T14:18:05Z dmiles: worse now is we have an inferior version of the field that emerged (the automated programing field) in that people have accepts that things like Agda/Idris is the "newest greatest thing"
2020-03-22T14:18:45Z dmiles: "the automated programing field" oops give them too much credit !
2020-03-22T14:18:50Z z147: White_Flame, so far not much has come up in a quick search for me as far as domain and CL, so i suppose i will review the current practices outside CL and go from there
2020-03-22T14:19:35Z dmiles: the "automated verification" is all  _they_ / _them_ do :(
2020-03-22T14:19:37Z z147: interestingly, there are some publications coming up due to COVID where they are pushing for rules-based triage
2020-03-22T14:20:27Z MichaelRaskin: Expert systems need experts to maintain, and the experts can migrate to another software base if needed. Current machine learning is about making sure your data center is the only environment where the learning procedure can be deployed with reasonable efficiency (and that humans are fungible)
2020-03-22T14:21:00Z z147: MichaelRaskin, important point
2020-03-22T14:21:24Z z147: the feverish dream of information sold as a utility
2020-03-22T14:21:42Z White_Flame: yeah, regarding CL, when we were looking at stuff a decade back or so, most of it was Java.  Even charles forgy was moving everything to java
2020-03-22T14:22:02Z MichaelRaskin: Re: triage — well, decisions that are life-or-death even when made perfectly are politically easier to push towards being explainable to humans
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2020-03-22T14:23:12Z jcowan: Selling information is an inherently inefficient market anyway
2020-03-22T14:23:30Z z147: White_Flame, that's the impression I get now
2020-03-22T14:23:39Z Posterdati: hi
2020-03-22T14:23:52Z Posterdati: which is the complexity of the sort function?
2020-03-22T14:23:57Z z147: although I presume there is an ongoing migration to the cloud as subscription gathering and customer lock-in
2020-03-22T14:24:06Z _death: continuing on the path of Bayesian networks, recent research by Pearl and his students led to results about what he calls "causality diagrams".. not too long ago he published a book placing this research in a historical context, called "The Book of Why"..
2020-03-22T14:24:29Z MichaelRaskin: Posterdati: n log n in any reasonable case
2020-03-22T14:24:42Z White_Flame: z147: but really, what are you looking for?  to build up tech from scratch or to use something existing?
2020-03-22T14:24:52Z White_Flame: and if something existing, what sort of thing?
2020-03-22T14:25:08Z Posterdati: MichaelRaskin: ok, tx
2020-03-22T14:25:36Z z147: White_Flame, my interest sparked about 5 years back when I started observing a movement for check-lists in the medical profession
2020-03-22T14:25:47Z z147: it has met a lot of resistance, but it's there
2020-03-22T14:28:14Z dmiles: I remember the GOFAI sort of happened to overcome a broken version of AI that proceeded it
2020-03-22T14:29:37Z dmiles: i jsut cant remember exaclty what that borken thing was
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2020-03-22T14:30:06Z MichaelRaskin: Perceptrons?
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2020-03-22T14:30:59Z z147: I apologize for my connection, the whole network is overloaded here at the moment
2020-03-22T14:31:13Z _death: "GOFAI" is kind of misnamed.. approaches like "neural networks" (at the time it was quite offensive to call them that, so they had a name like "neuron-like elements") rose at the same time as the rule-based heuristic approaches, in the 1950s..
2020-03-22T14:31:47Z White_Flame: yeah, "symbolic AI" is more correct, though "SAI" hasn't caught on as an acronym
2020-03-22T14:32:49Z _death: today's "deep learning" stuff is basically a rehash of Selfridge's Pandemonium architecture (1959)
2020-03-22T14:33:41Z dmiles: yeah i sorta actualyl think the history went as follows:  Perceptrons/Baysian   ->   SAI/GOFAI  ->  BaysianRehashed
2020-03-22T14:33:54Z dmiles: well sorry
2020-03-22T14:34:21Z z147: _death, I read the Opus (Hartung) with great interest
2020-03-22T14:34:28Z dmiles: yeah i sorta actualyl think the history went as follows:  Perceptrons/Connectionism  ->   SAI/GOFAI  ->  Connectionism done much better as Baysian
2020-03-22T14:34:42Z z147: something to think about as far as working with the Java implemented systems
2020-03-22T14:36:48Z dmiles: At some point arround the Genetic Algos of the late 1970s it was seen that we needed better Symbolic systems for the GAs to author
2020-03-22T14:37:44Z dmiles: And better symbolic systems to "manage" the work a GA will need to work towards
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2020-03-22T14:38:21Z dmiles: but this sociental agenda was lost on most peopel as they over specialized
2020-03-22T14:38:27Z _death: z147: here's one use of BNs in a critical field today https://ercim-news.ercim.eu/en107/special/bonaparte-bayesian-networks-to-give-victims-back-their-names
2020-03-22T14:38:33Z White_Flame: yep, command & control is done very well in rule systems
2020-03-22T14:40:21Z _death: there's a good Lisp book called "Building Problem Solvers" that deals with backward/forward chaining, truth-maintenance systems, etc.
2020-03-22T14:40:22Z z147: White_Flame, i'll read up on the command & control benefits, thanks
2020-03-22T14:40:54Z White_Flame: those design lessons were not learned from reading up, but rather fro mdoing
2020-03-22T14:40:59Z z147: _death, I haven't seen that book i'll look into it, thanks
2020-03-22T14:41:33Z White_Flame: the tech is there, but the actual use and programming design of how to architect the rules is what's sorely lacking
2020-03-22T14:42:29Z White_Flame: but then again, nobody's doing actual rule-based programming, except for maybe SOAR, which is tightly bound in a very particular agent-based model
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2020-03-22T14:44:00Z dmiles: I'd liek to see peopel start to program in EventCalc and SitCalc
2020-03-22T14:44:47Z dmiles: EventCalc is where you actually declare the order in which proddedures will happen such as memory intializatio
2020-03-22T14:45:03Z z147: I've found a medical field article that mentions Rule-Based Reasoning but I have to follow up with what they actually mean with that in their implementation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29673601
2020-03-22T14:45:33Z dmiles: vs the SitCalc is how one might declare their CLOS
2020-03-22T14:48:45Z z147: White_Flame, which SOAR, SSI/SSDI Outreach, Access, and Recovery?
2020-03-22T14:49:02Z White_Flame: John Laird's SOAR project, from university of michigan
2020-03-22T14:49:24Z White_Flame: hmm, I wonder if it's just called "Soar" now, a la LISP=>Lisp
2020-03-22T14:49:33Z dmiles: there exists for all streams a notion of a count of charaters "so far"
2020-03-22T14:50:20Z White_Flame: yeah, looks like they dropped the all-caps, probably a while ago https://soar.eecs.umich.edu/
2020-03-22T14:50:43Z z147: I appreciate the suggestions
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2020-03-22T14:54:18Z White_Flame: z147: in any case, I need to be afk.  If you're serious about building something and want to use CL stuff, PM me
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2020-03-22T14:54:51Z White_Flame: but certainly see wha'ts out there, and there might already be a system directly applicable
2020-03-22T14:54:56Z z147: White_Flame, yes, understood. Like I said, i'm collecting data at the moment
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2020-03-22T15:04:07Z MichaelRaskin: And if you want to do anything with rule-based system, do something with many of the existing prolog-like libraries (or with actual Prolog, or with Datalog, …)
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2020-03-22T15:05:40Z z147: MichaelRaskin, which libraries would be top of the list to review?
2020-03-22T15:06:52Z MichaelRaskin: You don't need anything fancy, just do something to get a feeling, I think a few Lisp books include Prolog-in-100-lines or something like that
2020-03-22T15:07:00Z MichaelRaskin: (or search cliki)
2020-03-22T15:08:31Z z147: will do, thanks MichaelRaskin
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2020-03-22T15:28:23Z jcowan: I was going to say that Prolog is by no means dead.  I've found the folks on ##prolog to be quite welcoming.
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2020-03-22T17:44:28Z ecraven: regarding SLIME in Emacs, there used to be default keybindings, but somehow I lost them.. were they removed, or do I just have to explicitly enable them somehow?
2020-03-22T17:44:55Z ecraven: things like `slime-inspect-presentation-at-point' (which now seems to be completely unbound)
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2020-03-22T18:21:50Z tcr: ecraven: Many things have moved into contribs, but that happened like over 10 years ago
2020-03-22T18:22:24Z ecraven: hehe, I just remember that they used to exist..
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2020-03-22T18:24:23Z tcr: ecraven, you probably want to add (setq slime-contribs '(slime-fancy slime-presentations)) into your .emacs
2020-03-22T18:24:48Z ecraven: I have slime-fancy, but not slime-presentations it seems.. thanks
2020-03-22T18:25:20Z tcr: `M-x find-library slime` and then `M-x rgrep slime-inspect-presentation` revealed that ;)
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2020-03-22T18:26:37Z ecraven: hm.. `lisp-show-variable-documentation' is bound to C-c C-v, not `slime-presentation-map' :-/
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2020-03-22T19:01:34Z random-nick: I want to make a binding to a C library, should I manually transcribe the API to CFFI definition forms or should I use something which does it automatically?
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2020-03-22T19:05:37Z phoe: random-nick: depends on the size of the library
2020-03-22T19:05:55Z phoe: how many functions do you need to bind?
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2020-03-22T19:06:32Z random-nick: I'm binding gobject2
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2020-03-22T19:06:56Z random-nick: it has quite a lot of functions, but not as much as something like gtk
2020-03-22T19:07:08Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/The-Groveller.html
2020-03-22T19:10:09Z phoe: you could use something automated, then - either cffi-grovel or cl-autowrap or claw
2020-03-22T19:10:20Z phoe: I know that some #lispgames people have had success with the last two
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2020-03-22T19:24:42Z random-nick: jackdaniel: how does it interact with header paths?
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2020-03-22T19:24:51Z random-nick: gobject has some weird header paths
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2020-03-22T19:33:57Z jackdaniel: beats me, trying it or looking at the source is the best way to see how it works
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2020-03-22T19:41:50Z random-nick: oh, it has pkg-config support
2020-03-22T19:41:56Z random-nick: that should work
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2020-03-22T19:51:53Z _death: v
2020-03-22T19:52:01Z _death: oops
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2020-03-22T20:00:17Z random-nick: I might be missing something, but it seems the groveller doesn't have anything for creating function bindings
2020-03-22T20:02:40Z equwal: random-nick: use cl-autowrap
2020-03-22T20:02:50Z equwal: It is meant to just work
2020-03-22T20:03:10Z equwal: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap
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2020-03-22T20:04:55Z random-nick: equwal: that seems to require clang
2020-03-22T20:05:33Z equwal: It requires /you/ to have clang and c2ffi, not your users
2020-03-22T20:06:17Z random-nick: well since I'm making a library binding my users require clang
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2020-03-22T20:18:26Z _death: random-nick: no, it creates files that can be read without needing clang
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2020-03-22T20:30:25Z equwal: _death: that is what the README says in bold, so I went off of that.
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2020-03-22T20:37:35Z phoe: random-nick: it requires clang for generating the binding specs
2020-03-22T20:37:51Z phoe: you can later distribute the binding specs to everyone along with your library; no need for them to have clang
2020-03-22T20:38:02Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/which uses cl-autowrap
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2020-03-22T20:54:09Z void_pointer: The one downside is that you have to run it for each processor architecture and sometimes OS you want to target (because the width of an int can change radically between architectures and even OSes on the same architecture)
2020-03-22T20:55:06Z void_pointer: also alignment in structs and whatnot
2020-03-22T20:58:09Z aeth: cl-autowrap has problems that borodust fixed with claw. https://github.com/borodust/claw
2020-03-22T20:58:22Z aeth: equwal: ^
2020-03-22T20:58:35Z aeth: In particular, borodust seems to have removed most of the things that introduce performance penalties.
2020-03-22T20:58:42Z void_pointer: Also, if you are interfacing POSIX libraries, you have to be prepared for the sizes of things changing from Linux, Mac OSX, the various BSDs, etc.
2020-03-22T20:59:02Z void_pointer: Note that you have to deal with that issue if you just use CFFI directly too
2020-03-22T21:00:49Z void_pointer: c2ffi can be better in some cases here, like extra fields in standard structs (e.g. Mac OSX has an extra field in sockaddr that isn't on Linux)
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2020-03-22T21:03:50Z void_pointer: Basically, depending on how many systems one is targeting, the build matrix for the spec files can get rather large
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2020-03-22T21:05:18Z equwal: void_pointer: That sounds unpleasant. We do have lots of VM technology available and CI, so it should be possible to only manually do the process once.
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2020-03-22T21:09:00Z void_pointer: That certainly does help. With Linux and most BSDs on most platforms, it should be pretty easy with VMs with or without CI. Windows' high backwards compatibility makes it fairly easy since you only need to do it for one version. Mac OSX is maybe the wild card. Oh, and of course, if one is doing smart phones, well, good luck.
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2020-03-22T21:10:35Z fe[nl]ix: cffi-grovel and manually creating bindings have one advantage: you only define what you use
2020-03-22T21:11:06Z equwal: Yeah, I mentioned CI since it helps by automatically doing it when a pull request is made. What would a travis.yaml, GUIX config, or docker file look like to generate these automatically? Do we have an example to start with?
2020-03-22T21:11:11Z fe[nl]ix: you can even have a struct with 20 fields, but if you only need one you can just define that and the groveler will figure out the struct size and field offset
2020-03-22T21:11:37Z aeth: just come up with a cl-unautowrap tree shaker...
2020-03-22T21:12:05Z equwal: "just do it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-sfG8BV8wU
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2020-03-22T21:23:27Z random-nick: hm, cl-autowrap seems to be having trouble with gobject
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2020-03-22T21:24:27Z aeth: random-nick: Try its fork claw instead, then. Worst case scenario, neither work, but borodust (the fork author) is in this channel. https://github.com/borodust/claw
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2020-03-22T21:28:33Z aeth: random-nick: and then there's the option of manually using cffi-grovel that fe[nl]ix said
2020-03-22T21:28:44Z aeth: there might be a few other options, too
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2020-03-22T21:33:52Z borodust: claw has no docs unfortunately
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2020-03-22T21:34:52Z borodust: i can create a base wrapper for ya though
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2020-03-22T21:42:37Z phoe: the author is the living documentation™
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2020-03-22T21:48:41Z aeth: phoe: exactly
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2020-03-22T21:49:05Z aeth: there's a real time query-based documentation system
2020-03-22T21:49:22Z borodust: phoe: it will be there, i just need to finish this sm0l feature..
2020-03-22T21:49:50Z borodust: c++ support ;₽
2020-03-22T21:49:54Z void_pointer: though that is brittle, but this is the nature of many projects in their early states
2020-03-22T21:51:21Z void_pointer: unless one is of the literate programming persuasion, design first and code second, or really into making documentation as one goes; that is how it is (and sadly, some projects never get their documentation)
2020-03-22T21:53:47Z phoe: borodust: :D
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2020-03-22T21:56:46Z aeth: void_pointer: I have a literate programming library but it's entirely undocumented at the moment ;-)
2020-03-22T21:57:14Z void_pointer: aeth: I think I saw it at some point
2020-03-22T21:57:36Z aeth: void_pointer: It's a joke. If it's undocumented and documentation comes first, then it's empty, i.e. not there.
2020-03-22T21:57:58Z void_pointer: aeth: just checked, not the author of the two I was thinking of
2020-03-22T21:58:06Z void_pointer: aeth: ah
2020-03-22T21:58:31Z aeth: It looks something like NIL
2020-03-22T21:58:41Z void_pointer: aeth: with literate programming, one does have to start somewhere to bootstrap, though that is where external documentation and comment documentation come in
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2020-03-23T00:29:58Z White_Flame: z147: btw, in the vocabulary I'm around, "rule-based" systems tend to talk about production rules, not prolog (although that can be part of it)
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2020-03-23T00:56:17Z z147: White_Flame, i'm going through the archive at CMU Artificial Intelligence Repository, lots to contemplate
2020-03-23T00:58:54Z White_Flame: yeah, but really it sounds like you need to define the general workflow of the software you'd like to have first, then look at tools that might deliver that. THere's an infinite rabbit hole of tech variations otherwise
2020-03-23T01:02:57Z z147: I'm interested in the past research, as quite a lot was done
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2020-03-23T01:09:51Z White_Flame: sure. Are you looking at writing something from scratch though?
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2020-03-23T01:10:04Z White_Flame: or just learn how things work?
2020-03-23T01:12:21Z z147: White_Flame, i usually prefer to get a fast idea with as many quick prototypes as possible
2020-03-23T01:13:16Z z147: the systems i've been exposed to were closed, vendor-specific java, with what I saw under the hood, very simple rule matching
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2020-03-23T01:22:26Z White_Flame: are you looking for raw rule tech, or something that's fleshed out with a bunch of dialogs and such to interact with the humans?  all the open source stuff is the former, except for maybe jboss rules
2020-03-23T01:22:46Z White_Flame: I still don't know at what level you want to create prototypes
2020-03-23T01:25:17Z z147: White_Flame, i prefer to do exploratory use as part of my specification development. So i'm not limiting anything at this time.
2020-03-23T01:25:44Z z147: from the market point, i'm looking at existing systems outside of CL and what their limitations are
2020-03-23T01:26:01Z z147: but also successes
2020-03-23T01:26:10Z White_Flame: the different styles of rule engines have different things they make easier
2020-03-23T01:26:19Z White_Flame: from a programming/implementation perspective
2020-03-23T01:26:49Z White_Flame: but if what you want is GUI-driven human interaction, that's more software written on top of those layers than rule engines themselves
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2020-03-23T01:27:43Z White_Flame: the rule engines used to be called "expert system shells", in that you use them to create expert systems, so they're not immediately able to do "expert" stuff in the common case.  So that's the sort of thing I'm wondering about your search
2020-03-23T01:30:34Z z147: GUI is of least concern
2020-03-23T01:30:44Z z147: it will be there, but that's doable
2020-03-23T01:30:50Z White_Flame: often times, there'd be a domain expert, but they wouldn't do anything with the system; the "knowledge engineer" would encode what they deal with the expert into the rule forms
2020-03-23T01:31:15Z White_Flame: some advanced systems sought to allow the domain expert to directly enter stuff, and that's a whole other system
2020-03-23T01:31:28Z z147: what happened to expert system shells, the term fell off the radar, the approach remains in other forms?
2020-03-23T01:31:58Z White_Flame: the tech went mostly into BRMS (business rules management systems), where they became less interactive
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2020-03-23T01:32:22Z White_Flame: most of the stuff that I saw had you select which ruleset to use, and which data to seed it with, then it ran to completion and gave you an answer
2020-03-23T01:32:33Z White_Flame: so it ends up being a fancy function call instead of a dynamic interacting system
2020-03-23T01:33:08Z White_Flame: so you have a big Java enterprise application, that makes calls out to the BRMS to make configurable decisions
2020-03-23T01:33:37Z White_Flame: each independently manifested
2020-03-23T01:33:55Z z147: I suppose it's called expert systems and rules management as far as current publications
2020-03-23T01:34:00Z White_Flame: which is completely different than the older style where the system would dialogue with the user, asking questions abotu stuff it didn't know
2020-03-23T01:34:19Z White_Flame: in order to flesh out the knowledge so all the rules could activate
2020-03-23T01:34:39Z White_Flame: that dialoguing system is something built on top of the rule engines; it's not an implicit feature of them
2020-03-23T01:35:13Z White_Flame: or at least, not of the standard model of especially open source ones.  That dialoguing was commercial special sauce
2020-03-23T01:36:04Z White_Flame: but again, the modern stuff eschews interactivity and simply crunches a result from input facts in batch
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2020-03-23T01:36:56Z White_Flame: because it's used to analyze business dat
2020-03-23T01:36:58Z White_Flame: a
2020-03-23T01:37:12Z z147: I'm going to follow up in a few weeks on this topic, as there's lots to review
2020-03-23T01:37:21Z White_Flame: yep
2020-03-23T01:37:43Z z147: I might also get emergency drafted so we'll see , but thanks for all the pointers.
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2020-03-23T04:57:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-23T05:34:36Z beach: Hmm, still nothing from the ELS referees.
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2020-03-23T06:10:41Z ecraven: just out of interest, does CLOS offer support for setting the *print-base* of slots? so when printing or inspecting an object, some slots would automatically be shown in a different base?
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2020-03-23T06:20:38Z beach: ecraven: Sure, you can create an :AROUND method that does that.
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2020-03-23T06:27:12Z beach: ... at least to some extent.  The inspector of SBCL does not use DESCRIBE, so an :AROUND method on DESCRIBE-OBJECT will not work in that case.
2020-03-23T06:28:53Z beach: ecraven: I recommend you use Clouseau instead.  It is much more flexible in terms of configuration and customization.
2020-03-23T06:30:39Z ecraven: thanks ;)
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2020-03-23T09:50:22Z Josh_2: does the macro in listing 3.6 the defmacro with g! work properly?
2020-03-23T09:50:26Z Josh_2: in Let Over Lambda
2020-03-23T09:54:48Z Josh_2: When trying to copy the example I get undefined-variable g!result https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1718#1718
2020-03-23T09:57:21Z phoe: Josh_2: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/errata
2020-03-23T09:58:44Z Josh_2: Thanks phoe :)
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2020-03-23T13:38:06Z phoe: Xach: when is the next release planned?
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2020-03-23T13:46:53Z Xach: phoe: soon
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2020-03-23T13:46:57Z Xach: phoe: things are in good shape
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2020-03-23T13:53:12Z jcowan: phoe: "When you can stick a toothpick in it and it doesn't come out gooey."
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2020-03-23T14:17:13Z phoe: Xach: jcowan: thanks!
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2020-03-24T00:06:44Z parjanya: using quicklisp, having loaded cl-base64, I tried loading another package that uses base64 (a different package), but it complained that base64 is a nick for cl-base64, so it wouldn’t load. I opened a new repl and everything went fine, using base64 alone. this kind of clash shouldn’t happen, right?
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2020-03-24T00:10:58Z edgar-rft: parjanya: I think you first must (shadow 'base-64) the nickname before you load the base-64 package, then it should work.
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2020-03-24T00:26:54Z pjb: parjanya: yes, this kind of clash can happen, quicklisp doesn't guarantee anything (it only tests a single system per image).
2020-03-24T00:27:25Z pjb: parjanya: and developers don't listen to what I'm telling them, to name their packages and systems using the reverse domain-name convention.
2020-03-24T00:27:58Z pjb: parjanya: If instead of cl-base64, you used com.informatimago.common-lisp.rfc3548.rfc3548, you wouldn't have that problem!
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2020-03-24T00:30:56Z oni-on-ion: =P
2020-03-24T00:31:01Z pjb: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (with-input-from-string (*standard-input* "foo bar baz") (com.informatimago.common-lisp.rfc3548.rfc3548:base64-encode (lambda () (let ((ch  (read-char *standard-input* nil))) (when ch (char-code ch)))) 'write-char))) #| --> "Zm9vIGJhciBiYXo=" |#
2020-03-24T00:34:29Z Xach: parjanya: it's not a given that every project can load with every other one.
2020-03-24T00:34:47Z Xach: parjanya: when i compile the projects, i only verify that they load in isolation
2020-03-24T00:35:10Z Xach: "compile" in the sense of gathering them together, not in the sense of code compilation.
2020-03-24T00:35:12Z oni-on-ion: can't make a super image with all of QL ?
2020-03-24T00:35:22Z Xach: oni-on-ion: not without effort
2020-03-24T00:35:26Z oni-on-ion: mk
2020-03-24T00:35:31Z no-defun-allowed: Unlikely. At least two markdown implementations conflict in package name.
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2020-03-24T00:41:41Z pjb: oni-on-ion: with an in-image virtual file system, you could install all the sources in an image, and compile and load them from the image.
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2020-03-24T00:42:47Z parjanya: that’s ok, it’s just that this was the first time it happened :) it’s nice to know/remember about `shadow' too, tx edgar-rft
2020-03-24T00:43:43Z pjb: Yes, but shadow doesn't shadow packages!  You would have to rename the existing package before loading the new system.
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2020-03-24T00:46:27Z Fade: how does such an in-image filesystem work?
2020-03-24T00:46:36Z Fade: this is an interesting idea.
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2020-03-24T00:47:21Z no-defun-allowed: The filesystem could be a hash table of pathname ⇒ content vectors, if one wants to make a fake (most of) Un*x file system.
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2020-03-24T00:49:22Z Fade: *nod*
2020-03-24T00:49:58Z Fade: the unordered nature of the keys in a hash map would complicate things a bit.
2020-03-24T00:50:27Z no-defun-allowed: Why is that? I don't think many filesystems preserve an order of names.
2020-03-24T00:50:42Z no-defun-allowed: Or, if you want a hierarchical file system, then you have nested hash tables for directories, and vectors for files.
2020-03-24T00:50:56Z oni-on-ion: pjb, that would be awesome =) i really like the smalltalk way of having sources+changesets in-image
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2020-03-24T00:51:04Z oni-on-ion: also, CL is missing sandboxing abilities
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2020-03-24T01:16:24Z pjb: Fade: you use gray streams to access data stored in byte vectors or strings. You need to implement a directory structure, so you have to implement PATHNAMEs, and OPEN, DIRECTORY, etc… For those, there's no gray stream API.  So you may have to use vfs:pathname and vfs:directory, vfs:open  instead of CL.
2020-03-24T01:17:08Z pjb: Fade: have a look at (the quite incomplete): https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/future/vfs
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2020-03-24T01:42:13Z Fade: that's really interesting.
2020-03-24T01:42:30Z Fade: thanks
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2020-03-24T13:44:55Z dlowe: pondering first-class packages for sandboxing
2020-03-24T13:45:49Z dlowe: eh, probably not.
2020-03-24T13:46:13Z beach: What do you have against first-class global environments?
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2020-03-24T13:47:28Z dlowe: I don't have to dislike something to be interested in alternatives.
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2020-03-24T13:48:00Z beach: Fair enough.
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2020-03-24T13:49:30Z dlowe: I am a little concerned, though, that global environments are too big a hammer for sandboxing
2020-03-24T13:50:16Z dlowe: In any sandbox one wants to poke very specific holes
2020-03-24T13:50:58Z dlowe: whereas importing something into a global environment also introduces all its transitive dependencies
2020-03-24T13:52:49Z beach: That's news to me.
2020-03-24T13:53:23Z beach: I am planning to import just the functions COMPILE and COMPILE-FILE from the compiler first-class global environment into the default first-class global environment.
2020-03-24T13:53:33Z beach: Not the stuff that they call.
2020-03-24T13:56:42Z dlowe: okay, so I import COMPILE from CL to my global environment FOO, and call COMPILE from within FOO. Either a) COMPILE runs in FOO and can't access its dependencies or b) COMPILE runs in CL and macros have complete access to CL
2020-03-24T13:57:18Z beach: That's not how it works.
2020-03-24T13:58:01Z dlowe: Okay, where have I got astray?  You can point me at a paper if it's easier than explaining on IRC
2020-03-24T13:58:11Z pjb: dlowe: environments are not named.
2020-03-24T13:58:22Z dlowe: yes, but humans like to have names to refer to things
2020-03-24T13:58:29Z dlowe: especially when describing a situation
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2020-03-24T14:00:09Z pjb: dlowe: also, environment is an overloaded term in the hyperspec. There's at least three meanings to it.
2020-03-24T14:00:16Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm
2020-03-24T14:00:26Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/25_.htm
2020-03-24T14:00:34Z beach: dlowe: You are assuming that function lookup is done at run-time.  That would be too expensive.  Instead, when code is loaded, it is "tied" to a particular environment.  After that, a function such as COMPILE can be imported to other environments without the callees being imported.
2020-03-24T14:00:37Z dlowe: it's true.  I'm using the word environment as beach is intending it
2020-03-24T14:00:47Z dlowe: not as the spec is using it
2020-03-24T14:01:00Z pjb: and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ba.htm
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2020-03-24T14:01:38Z beach: dlowe: http://metamodular.com/SICL/environments.pdf
2020-03-24T14:01:56Z dlowe: beach: I'll read that and see if I get it.
2020-03-24T14:02:27Z beach: Feel free to ask if you don't.
2020-03-24T14:05:06Z pjb: beach: wouldn't a mere map of names to packages be enough for environment objects?  If you put bindings in your environment objects, I think you'd want to provide a way to let user programs put their own bindings there too.
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2020-03-24T14:06:42Z beach: User programs can definitely put bindings in a first-class global environment.
2020-03-24T14:07:01Z pjb: I mean, bindings of a different kind than CL bindings.
2020-03-24T14:07:20Z beach: What kind of bindings would that be?
2020-03-24T14:07:36Z pjb: For example, if I want to bind strings to value slots thru a hash-table, I may want to do that thru different hash-tables depending on the environment.
2020-03-24T14:08:18Z beach: Sure, just make a subclass of GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT and put your hash table there.
2020-03-24T14:08:19Z pjb: Or perhaps thru the same hash-table, depending on the environment. I mean, several types of lisp objects have slots, which can serve to bind values.
2020-03-24T14:08:36Z pjb: Ok, sounds good.
2020-03-24T14:09:16Z beach: I don't see how a mapping from names to environments would be enough for the kind of functionality I am after.
2020-03-24T14:09:30Z beach: to packages, sorry.
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2020-03-24T14:12:14Z pjb: I think things will be clearer when we'll be able to exercise this new concept.
2020-03-24T14:12:31Z beach: I hope so.
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2020-03-24T14:18:19Z pjb: For sandboxing, you may want to substitute CL stuff. If you use CL:COMPILE, you may not be able to substitute what you need to substitute.  First, CL:COMPILE is allowed to opencode any CL operator.  This means that (cl:compile nil '(lambda () (cl:open "foo"))) will be able to implement the semantics of the native cl:open, even if you define a different cl:open binding in the global environment.
2020-03-24T14:18:46Z pjb: beach: Said otherwise, once you introduce your environments, you need to provide your own compile function to ensure that it's used.
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2020-03-24T14:20:30Z beach: I do provide my own compile function.
2020-03-24T14:21:20Z beach: But it is still the FDEFINITION of the name CL:COMPILE in some first-class global environment.
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2020-03-24T15:20:30Z jcowan: Part of the problem is that CL doesn't allow renaming of either packages or the symbols in them.  In better (ahem) module systems, either or both of these may be possible.
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2020-03-24T15:21:52Z Xach: You can rename packages in Common Lisp.
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2020-03-24T15:22:07Z Xach: It is done via RENAME-PACKAGE.
2020-03-24T15:24:03Z heisig: You can also transfer the symbol value, symbol function, symbol plist and all documentation to another symbol via SETF.
2020-03-24T15:24:27Z jcowan: Correct about packages, sftn.
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2020-03-24T15:25:02Z jcowan: Passing everything to another symbol doesn't leave the identity visible to compilers, though:  (define foo (x) (car x)) might or might not be inlined.
2020-03-24T15:25:12Z jcowan: s/define/defun/
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2020-03-24T15:29:22Z heisig: Oh, right.  To do so, you would also have to migrate all declarations and the inline information on that symbol.  That is not possible, at least not in portable code.
2020-03-24T15:30:07Z heisig: But I wouldn't recommend this way of 'renaming' symbols anyway.  I just wanted to point out that it is possible.
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2020-03-24T15:46:28Z beach: Renaming a symbol sounds like a bad idea.
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2020-03-24T17:12:54Z jcowan: Depends on if you think of it as a symbol (runtime object) or an identifier.  In the latter view you are saying "In this scope of code foo (imported from module baz) will be known as bar, but it is still really foo."
2020-03-24T17:15:20Z jcowan: It is a purely compile-time notion.  You could simulate it with define-symbol-macro.
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2020-03-24T19:08:23Z aeth: beach: Is there ever a chance that SBCL and CCL get first class global environments or is it too tied to SICL?
2020-03-24T19:10:18Z beach: I have no control over SBCL or CCL.  It is highly unlikely that their respective maintainers will accept that work though.
2020-03-24T19:11:27Z beach: Maybe, just maybe, after SICL is finished and people understand the value of having first-class global environments it could change.
2020-03-24T19:11:52Z beach: I'm off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  I'll be back tomorrow morning (UTC+1).
2020-03-24T19:12:19Z aeth: I'm just thinking about it being a similar situation to e.g. package local nicknames, which were around for forever, but that most people didn't use until (nearly) everyone supported it.
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2020-03-24T19:24:55Z phoe: aeth: that only depends on who will implement it in CCL.
2020-03-24T19:25:20Z phoe: If someone implements it, I doubt CCL maintainers will not accept the PR - provided that it doesn't regress anything.
2020-03-24T19:26:55Z Xach: phoe: why?
2020-03-24T19:28:54Z Xach: New things often require good understanding and ongoing maintenance - that can be an incentive not to accept them.
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2020-03-24T19:32:00Z sonologico: eijhccligiucrelrtirifhteuhidtkhjlfdfrkirtduc
2020-03-24T19:32:26Z sonologico: sorry :/
2020-03-24T19:32:27Z ear-the-art: 6129386491827346
2020-03-24T19:32:33Z aeth: Xach: New things whose purpose is compatibility with other implementations are probably more likely to be accepted, though.
2020-03-24T19:33:21Z aeth: I'm surprised no one has ported sb-unicode, with a portable portability library on top, yet.
2020-03-24T19:33:31Z aeth: There's probably a few more things that are obviously missing libraries.
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2020-03-24T19:35:46Z phoe: Xach: I could someday try hammering the change into CCL once it's there, and writing a test suite for it. And possibly maintain a forked version until the change stabilizes.
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2020-03-24T19:57:48Z Xach: aeth: i don't think that is a given.
2020-03-24T19:58:30Z Xach: aeth: for some, "compatibility with other implementations" does not always align with "keep implementation maintainable by a very small team and keep customers happy"
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2020-03-24T20:01:06Z Xach: I am not saying they are always in conflict, but that alignment is not automatic
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2020-03-24T22:39:24Z Xach: i smell a new quicklisp tomorrow
2020-03-24T22:39:38Z Xach: (dist update)
2020-03-24T22:40:43Z no-defun-allowed: \o/
2020-03-24T22:40:44Z edgar-rft: how do you know what you smell tomorrow?
2020-03-24T22:41:00Z Xach: magic 8 ball
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2020-03-25T01:15:45Z dlowe: reply smelly try again later
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2020-03-25T04:01:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-25T04:04:57Z beach: aeth: First-class global environments are not just a small extra feature the way package-local nicknames are.  They require a large part of the existing system to be restructured and a lot of the code to be rewritten.
2020-03-25T04:06:55Z beach: phoe: So I don't think first-class global environments would be represented by a single pull request.  If I were to implement first-class global environments in some existing implementation, I would make gradual changes over a long period of time.
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2020-03-25T04:13:23Z beach: Plus, with first-class global environments, there is a (small) performance cost for things like SYMBOL-FUNCTION with a symbol that is not known at compile time.  Maintainers of implementations that want maximum performance in all situations would not be willing to accept that.
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2020-03-25T04:18:45Z Oladon: Anyone here used spinneret for HTML templating? I'm trying to figure out the best way to implement nestable templates, and his deftag doesn't seem quite right.
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2020-03-25T05:52:04Z drmeister: Xach: I'm glad - you've probably read this...  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html
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2020-03-25T07:11:44Z phoe: beach: I'm aware, it's a pretty big change after all.
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2020-03-25T07:33:31Z beach: phoe: Though there is one more advantage.  When the code of a Common Lisp implementation is restructured in order to allow for multiple global environments, the code becomes more regular and more independent of the specific details of the implementation.
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2020-03-25T07:53:01Z ear-the-art: beach, sandboxing?
2020-03-25T07:59:08Z beach: ear-the-art: It was aeth who asked whether I thought that first-class global environments would ever become part of existing Common Lisp implementations.
2020-03-25T07:59:24Z ear-the-art: ah, hmm.
2020-03-25T08:01:37Z beach: Then, phoe said he might someday be willing to merge a PR for CCL in a forked version.
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2020-03-25T08:03:30Z beach: One reason I started the SICL project is that I think the code of existing implementations is often old and hard to maintain.  And I think it would be more work to fix that problem than to write a new implementation from scratch.
2020-03-25T08:04:11Z beach: A new implementation would also be the opportunity to reconsider fundamental design decisions that may have been the right ones at the time but that no longer are.
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2020-03-25T08:09:25Z beach: But it is going to take time to get a new implementation to be as fast and as stable as the most common existing Common Lisp implementations.
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2020-03-25T08:31:57Z no-defun-allowed: Silly compiler question: do jump tables become less effective as the code they jump into becomes larger?
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2020-03-25T08:37:25Z beach: I seriously doubt that.  Why would they?
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2020-03-25T08:39:20Z no-defun-allowed: I'm still trying to guess reasons why binary search would be faster than using SBCL's jump tables in my bytecode interpreter.
2020-03-25T08:40:22Z beach: I think it is very hard to get answers to such questions.  It depends on the code generated by the compiler, on the processor architecture, on the processor implementation, etc.
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2020-03-25T08:43:44Z no-defun-allowed: :/
2020-03-25T08:48:20Z beach: In this case, you also have a memory lookup for the jump table.
2020-03-25T08:48:34Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-03-25T08:48:45Z beach: So if the binary search is very fast, then a jump table may not be able to compete.
2020-03-25T08:49:10Z no-defun-allowed: Makes sense.
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2020-03-25T08:56:45Z beach: no-defun-allowed: It may be a case that is similar to the comparison between PCL generic dispatch and SICL generic dispatch.  PCL uses a table in memory and SICL uses binary search.
2020-03-25T08:57:38Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I based the dispatch off SICL binary search (and we have discussed it before).
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2020-03-25T09:07:10Z no-defun-allowed: You had suggested using a jump table yesterday, and I've been eager to test how SBCL handles those, but I haven't had very good results.
2020-03-25T09:09:05Z Josh_2: Morning all. Does anyone know how I can optimize these 3 functions https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1719#1719 anymore?
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2020-03-25T09:13:19Z no-defun-allowed: Have you run it under a profiler to tell what is slowest?
2020-03-25T09:13:49Z no-defun-allowed: And please don't use (safety 0) unless you are very certain that nothing can go wrong, and then only in small doses.
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2020-03-25T09:14:56Z Josh_2: I am using safety 0 in small doses
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2020-03-25T09:16:16Z no-defun-allowed: You appear to have an interesting definition of "small".
2020-03-25T09:16:29Z Josh_2: using it in 3 functions is "small"
2020-03-25T09:16:37Z Josh_2: considering the entire system they are a part of
2020-03-25T09:17:06Z Josh_2: Besides, they are the backbone of the system, they need to be performant for the entire system to be performant
2020-03-25T09:17:41Z no-defun-allowed: Have you decided that using (safety 1) would be much slower?
2020-03-25T09:18:06Z Josh_2: It produces 1/3rd more machine code
2020-03-25T09:18:11Z Josh_2: so I'd assume so
2020-03-25T09:18:23Z no-defun-allowed: Have you bcnchmarked it?
2020-03-25T09:18:39Z no-defun-allowed: bcnchmarked → benchmarked
2020-03-25T09:18:43Z Josh_2: I have not benchmarked with safety 1
2020-03-25T09:19:07Z no-defun-allowed: I would strongly suggest doing so before you make those assumptions.
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2020-03-25T09:24:11Z Josh_2: weird
2020-03-25T09:24:17Z Josh_2: I'll use safety 1 then
2020-03-25T09:24:28Z Josh_2: I don't know why but it scraped off a few hundred ms
2020-03-25T09:24:36Z no-defun-allowed: It is usually unwise to use (safety 0) to disable runtime checks, because the problems that could arise if some invariants you decided on are broken would be more of a problem than the slight decrease in throughput caused by checks.
2020-03-25T09:24:44Z phoe: have you profiled?
2020-03-25T09:24:50Z no-defun-allowed: As Baker bluntly put it (in the case of some embedded systems), "rather than having the software discover its own errors in a benign way, the discovery of such errors is left to the FAA or a Congressional committee."
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2020-03-25T09:26:51Z no-defun-allowed: Looking at line 6, (THE BOOLEAN (LISTEN STREAM)) might be incorrect, because LISTEN only returns a generalised boolean. It is also excessive, because comparing an object to NIL is no faster if you know what the object could otherwise be.
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2020-03-25T09:28:36Z no-defun-allowed: I think READ-N-BYTES would be better written as a wrapper over READ-SEQUENCE, but it may be that spelling out the definition gives better type inference in your case.
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2020-03-25T09:37:20Z Josh_2: I removed "the" from listen
2020-03-25T09:38:58Z Josh_2: I think to get a real speed improvement i'd have to redesign the entire parser
2020-03-25T09:39:14Z Josh_2: I don't know why safety 1 sped it up a little bit but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-03-25T09:39:15Z Josh_2: it did
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2020-03-25T10:29:19Z no-defun-allowed: Some implementations may type check at THE, some may assume the value will always be of the provided type.
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2020-03-25T10:30:46Z no-defun-allowed: But profile your code, please. I would recommend SB-SPROF if you're on SBCL to get some prerequisite information.
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2020-03-25T10:34:20Z heisig: There are also several tools for visualizing SBCL's profiler output, like clim.flamegraph and cl-flamegraph.
2020-03-25T10:35:29Z no-defun-allowed: Absolutely, then you should move to the non-statistical profiler, which records calls and provides more precise information.
2020-03-25T10:36:19Z no-defun-allowed: But the statistical profiler just checks a thread's call stack frequently, instead of wrapping functions from a set you choose, which I think is better for getting an idea of where cycles are burnt.
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2020-03-25T10:41:34Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: is that aprof?
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2020-03-25T10:42:14Z flip214: no, that's just for allocations
2020-03-25T10:43:32Z flip214: ah, got it: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Deterministic-Profiler
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2020-03-25T10:44:55Z flip214: > SBCL includes both a deterministic profiler, that can collect statistics on individual functions, and a more “modern” statistical profiler.
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2020-03-25T13:12:52Z Xach: It's quicklisp dist day!
2020-03-25T13:13:30Z beach: Congratulations!
2020-03-25T13:13:30Z drmeister: Huzzah!
2020-03-25T13:13:31Z Xach prepares to sound the alpenhorn of announcement
2020-03-25T13:13:44Z jackdaniel: yay
2020-03-25T13:16:17Z flip214: Xach: you're going to yodel as well?
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2020-03-25T13:26:13Z Xach: for platinum sponsors only
2020-03-25T13:30:07Z flip214: will that be live or only a recording then?
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2020-03-25T13:32:16Z Xach: details will be in the email sent to platinum sponsors
2020-03-25T13:32:27Z Xach: and posted in the platinum club lounge
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2020-03-25T13:42:42Z phoe: <3
2020-03-25T13:42:50Z phoe: how do I join the platinum club
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2020-03-25T13:47:58Z jdz: phoe: You need to be introduced (sponsored?) by an existing member.
2020-03-25T13:48:21Z phoe: jdz: ...are there any existing members at all
2020-03-25T13:48:35Z jdz: First rule of the platinum sponsor club...
2020-03-25T13:49:41Z Xach: one (but not the only) prerequisite is to stay on-topic in #lisp!
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2020-03-25T13:50:30Z Bike: so there are no members, then
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2020-03-25T13:50:46Z phoe: shit, no chance for an invidation then
2020-03-25T13:51:21Z jdz: Bike: Just look at the list of people in this channel, and how many of them you know have typed anything?
2020-03-25T13:51:52Z phoe: if one never typed anything on #lisp, have they been staying on-topic?
2020-03-25T13:51:59Z jdz: Totally.
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2020-03-25T13:52:24Z phoe: they are much more on-topic than us, then
2020-03-25T13:52:28Z jdz: They are the ones, watching us.
2020-03-25T13:52:30Z phoe: we should take our leave while we still can
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2020-03-25T13:58:36Z _death: what about customers of the steel bank?
2020-03-25T13:59:26Z flip214: Bike: if there are no members, just assert yourself as the first one -- and declare independence!
2020-03-25T13:59:49Z flip214: phoe: "Only the one who never types anything at all never errs" or so, right?
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2020-03-25T14:00:51Z phoe: flip214: I don't know if the platinum sponsors club can survive an infinite increase in its member ratio
2020-03-25T14:01:18Z Xach: this is exactly the kind of behavior that will keep you out of platinum club
2020-03-25T14:03:06Z flip214: phoe: it will happen only once, special cases just get an UNWIND-PROTECT
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2020-03-25T14:45:31Z heisig just updated his Quicklisp dist to 2020-03-25
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2020-03-25T15:42:19Z _Ark_: Does anyone know a way to get a nanosecond/cpu timestamp in Common Lisp (or at least sbcl)? I'm looking for something like Java's `nanoTime` https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/System.html#nanoTime()
2020-03-25T15:42:25Z _Ark_: I've tried `(get-internal-run-time)` along with `internal-time-units-per-second`, but on SBCL it gives milliseconds.
2020-03-25T15:42:31Z _Ark_: `sb-ext:get-time-of-day` is closer, but it only goes down to microseconds.
2020-03-25T15:43:12Z phoe: (local-time:now)
2020-03-25T15:44:10Z phoe: but I wonder if that gives nanoseconds on SBCL...
2020-03-25T15:44:13Z pjb: _Ark_: then multiply by 1000000.
2020-03-25T15:44:47Z Xach: _Ark_: i don't know if there's a more direct way, but you could use sb-alien to use the underlying OS apis. if you know what OS api provides it, you could also grep SBCL sources for something that uses that API.
2020-03-25T15:44:55Z _death: there exists a monotonic-clock library
2020-03-25T15:45:03Z Xach: I don't see one at a glance but I am not looking super-hard
2020-03-25T15:45:29Z _death: https://github.com/death/monotonic-clock
2020-03-25T15:45:48Z Xach: _Ark_: out of curiosity, what will you do with the timestamp when you get it?
2020-03-25T15:46:24Z pjb: or (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:get-real-time) #| --> 3.794139978273096D+9 |#
2020-03-25T15:46:39Z pjb: or (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.time:get-run-time) #| --> 7.1337779999999995D0 |#
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2020-03-25T15:47:26Z Shinmera: _Ark_: sb-unix:unix-gettimeofday
2020-03-25T15:48:03Z Xach: Shinmera: that does not do nanoseconds.
2020-03-25T15:48:25Z pjb: Most computers don't know nanoseconds…
2020-03-25T15:48:34Z Shinmera: Microseconds ought to be enough for anybody
2020-03-25T15:48:50Z pjb: Until you have a 4 GHz processor :-)
2020-03-25T15:48:56Z _Ark_: Xach: I want to add some built-in profiling to my game engine. Mircoseconds will work for this, but I was curious how fine-grain of time lisp can get.
2020-03-25T15:49:00Z Xach: that is the spirit
2020-03-25T15:49:07Z Xach: _Ark_: good detail
2020-03-25T15:49:38Z Shinmera: It can get however fine grained the system offers
2020-03-25T15:51:00Z _Ark_: Yeah I figured FFI was always an option. Was wondering if there was a "standard" way to do this. For some applications nano-time is desierable
2020-03-25T15:51:10Z Shinmera: Like what
2020-03-25T15:51:39Z Shinmera: That resolution won't be useful because it'll be highly dominated by noise anyway.
2020-03-25T15:52:33Z Shinmera: Cycle counting would make more sense, but that too is riddled with issues.
2020-03-25T15:53:58Z _Ark_: I used to be an APM (Application Performance Monitoring) devleoper for the JVM. Basically a simple profiler designed to run in production. We always measured in cpu nanoseconds. In practice it ended up being useful.
2020-03-25T15:54:18Z _Ark_: https://github.com/DataDog/dd-trace-java
2020-03-25T15:56:08Z _Ark_: Looking though some of the libraries people linked. Seems like `local-time` on sbcl is using `sb-ext:get-time-of-day` under the hood. I'll take a look at monotonic-clock next...
2020-03-25T15:57:10Z jcowan: I once interviewed for Mellon Bank, does that count?
2020-03-25T15:57:38Z jcowan: (Not for U.S. Steel, though)
2020-03-25T15:58:27Z Shinmera: jcowan: ?
2020-03-25T15:58:58Z jcowan: U.S. Steel is the corporate descendant of Carnegie Steel.  CMU's money didn't come from nowhere.
2020-03-25T15:59:52Z Shinmera: What context am I missing here?
2020-03-25T16:00:14Z MichaelRaskin: yodel, I guess
2020-03-25T16:01:46Z MichaelRaskin: (a mention of upcoming QuickLisp release lead to a bit of offtopic)
2020-03-25T16:02:23Z Shinmera: I read that and still don't understand. Oh well, no matter.
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2020-03-25T16:09:25Z Bike: steel bank common lisp is descended from carnegie mellon university common lisp, because carnegie was a steel mogul and mellon a banker
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2020-03-25T16:10:58Z Shinmera: Yeah, I was missing that one message from _death a while back.
2020-03-25T16:11:58Z _Ark_: For anyone following along, `monotonic-clock` is implemented using FFI. Here's the underlying system call: https://linux.die.net/man/3/clock_gettime
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2020-03-25T16:12:27Z _Ark_: I guess my take-away is that getting the CPU time will required an FFI call (or more desirably using a library that manages the FFI for you). To Shinmera's point, this is overkill and not helpful for most applications, so micro-time is likely what you want.
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2020-03-25T16:16:18Z phoe: either that, or you make a syscall yourself
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2020-03-25T16:18:30Z _death: if you're willing to bear the consequences of rtdsc, you can also do that
2020-03-25T16:18:35Z _death: *rdtsc
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2020-03-25T16:38:22Z dlowe: worse, some computers claim to know nanoseconds and then only update their nanosecond counter every microsecond or so
2020-03-25T16:39:47Z _death: resolution vs. precision
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2020-03-25T16:44:25Z jmercouris: when I use cffi:callback to pass a callback to some C code, how can I store that in the C code? what is it a void *?
2020-03-25T16:44:42Z jmercouris: I don't even know what type I could store it as
2020-03-25T16:44:49Z jackdaniel: data and function pointers are separate in C
2020-03-25T16:44:56Z jackdaniel: you may call it Lisp-2 in this regard :-)
2020-03-25T16:45:02Z jackdaniel: C-2 *
2020-03-25T16:45:02Z pjb: jmercouris: well it's a function pointer, so you can cast it to a void*.
2020-03-25T16:45:33Z jmercouris: is there a way to store the function pointer and invoke it later?
2020-03-25T16:45:36Z pjb: jmercouris: in any case, the cffi declaration of the C function, and the C function itself don't need to have the same type of parameters.
2020-03-25T16:45:42Z jackdaniel: pjb: in C standard casting function pointers to data pointers is undefined behavior
2020-03-25T16:45:46Z pjb: (they really don't have the same type of parameters).
2020-03-25T16:45:55Z pjb: jackdaniel: really?
2020-03-25T16:46:02Z jackdaniel: yes
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2020-03-25T16:46:14Z jackdaniel: typedef void (*fp)(void);
2020-03-25T16:46:18Z jackdaniel: now cast to fp and you are golden
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2020-03-25T16:46:30Z jmercouris: so I could say fp = xyz
2020-03-25T16:46:37Z jmercouris: where xyz is the arg that I pass into the C function?
2020-03-25T16:46:48Z jackdaniel: rater: fp foo; foo = &xyz;
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2020-03-25T16:47:16Z jmercouris: I see, let me try this a little bit
2020-03-25T16:47:21Z jmercouris: the C part of this code is giving me a headache
2020-03-25T16:47:23Z _death: void call(void (*fp)(void), int arg) { fp(arg); }
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2020-03-25T16:47:59Z jmercouris: _death: I need to store it and call it later
2020-03-25T16:48:08Z jmercouris: it is a callback which is why I was asking about the type
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2020-03-25T16:48:37Z _death: so, struct { void (*fp)(void); } stuff; void store(void (*fp)(void)) { stuff.fp = fp; }
2020-03-25T16:49:06Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: please read this piece https://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/function-pointers.html, I think that discussing C pointers is not very ontopic
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2020-03-25T16:49:23Z jackdaniel: even if they are pointers to callbacks defined with cffi!
2020-03-25T16:49:28Z Bike: function pointers and data pointers aren't interchangeable but you can use function pointers fine. declare a global variable with function pointer type, put it in a struct, whatever
2020-03-25T16:50:01Z _death: you'd also want to take a context pointer, i.e. some void pointer to store as well and pass along when calling the function pointer
2020-03-25T16:50:08Z pjb: jackdaniel: I see only a prevention of casting (void*) to float, in 6.5.4 of ISO/IEC 9899:201x Committee Draft — April 12, 2011 N1570
2020-03-25T16:50:34Z pjb: to and from.
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2020-03-25T16:53:29Z TMA: pjb: you need to consider the whole standard; undefined behavior need not be explicitely specified, the necessary condition is that the standard does not explicitely or implicitely specify it
2020-03-25T16:54:17Z pjb: TMA: yes, but then the C standard doesn't specify a Turing Complete language either. So we could stop there.
2020-03-25T16:54:46Z pjb: TMA: but if it's not formally forbidden, and all C compilers do the right thing, where's the objection?
2020-03-25T16:55:30Z TMA: pjb: embedded platforms can have function pointers bigger or smaller than data pointers
2020-03-25T16:56:54Z jackdaniel: pjb: in 6.3.2.3 (same document), pointes 7. and 8.; there is no specification about casting between object and function pointers
2020-03-25T16:57:46Z jackdaniel: points8
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2020-03-25T17:00:12Z jackdaniel: it is certainly nice that it "usually works", but I think that there are architectures where normal data pointer is insufficient to store function address
2020-03-25T17:00:25Z jackdaniel: s/address/pointer/
2020-03-25T17:00:26Z pjb: Ok, so it could work or not, it's implementation dependent.  So we'd need to cast to something like int(*)() or void(*)() perhaps.  typedef void(*function_ptr)();
2020-03-25T17:00:34Z jackdaniel: yes
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2020-03-25T17:02:27Z pjb: Anyways, my point was that the CFFI declaration of _death's store function above doesn't need to use the type of void(*fp)(void) as argument, but can take the cffi:callback type.
2020-03-25T17:03:22Z pjb: Said otherwise, FFIs don't validate the function signatures across languages.  If it could, we wouldn't have to declare the C functions in lisp!
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2020-03-25T17:13:47Z jmercouris: not to fuel the off-topic discussion, but I read somewhere that it is apparently a posix specification that it should work
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2020-03-25T17:21:12Z dlowe: I wonder if you could use DWARF debugging information to pull FFI definitions
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2020-03-25T17:45:43Z pjb: dlowe: theorically, if it's available, yes.
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2020-03-25T17:56:15Z flip214: _Ark_: SBCL shows the CPU cycles in (time), (sb-ext:call-with-timing) can give that without parsing text, and then there's (sb-impl::read-cycle-counter) ...
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2020-03-25T18:30:16Z jackdaniel: that is correct, dlsym returns a void pointer, it is briefly discussed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_loading
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2020-03-25T19:26:12Z _Ark_: flip214: Thanks! I was not away of `sb-ext:call-with-timing`
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2020-03-26T03:55:25Z ihals: I need some help with EVAL... How can I use variable bindings that I already have, within the *calc-input* string?                (let ((form (read-from-string *calc-input*)))
2020-03-26T03:55:25Z ihals:  (setf *result* (eval form))))
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2020-03-26T05:25:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-26T13:17:17Z flip214: does someone have an example of writing a cxml-parsed dom out again?
2020-03-26T13:23:16Z _death: https://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/quickstart.html#id52964 ?
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2020-03-26T13:30:59Z flip214: _death: thanks... same page but headline "Writing XML" lead me astray
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2020-03-26T16:52:51Z jmercouris: controllable conditionals in an ASD to selectively load modules?
2020-03-26T16:53:10Z jmercouris: I don't want to make two systems, I want to be able to specify some flag or option somewhere
2020-03-26T16:53:37Z jmercouris: can you actually just put lisp in an asd?
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2020-03-26T16:56:46Z jmercouris: I remember something someone said about a year ago on this topic ,but I can't find it
2020-03-26T16:56:55Z jmercouris: maybe it was two years ago...
2020-03-26T16:56:56Z dlowe: I think the answer is yes but it makes it annoying to analyze
2020-03-26T16:57:06Z dlowe: so please don't if you can help it
2020-03-26T16:57:11Z jmercouris: OK
2020-03-26T16:57:22Z jmercouris: I'll think about how to re-order my dependencies somehow then
2020-03-26T16:58:16Z dlowe: that'd be an interesting capability within asdf
2020-03-26T16:58:24Z dlowe: asdf:*features* :)
2020-03-26T16:58:41Z dlowe: some conditional flag that does a build thing
2020-03-26T16:58:48Z dlowe: analyzers could take both branches
2020-03-26T16:59:04Z dlowe: (which would still be annoying but not as annoying as evaluated lisp code)
2020-03-26T16:59:26Z jmercouris: that's what I had in mind asdf:*features*
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2020-03-26T17:04:06Z Bike: you could j ust have a regular feature and then use if-feature
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2020-03-26T17:06:50Z p_l: there was also at one time "ASDF-system-connections" that provided conditionals based on presence of other ASDF systems
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2020-03-26T18:51:31Z jcowan: Does SBCL provide a compact format for (vector boolean), or is it better to use (vector bit) and a few shim macros?
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2020-03-26T18:55:57Z sjl_: looks like it does not
2020-03-26T18:57:45Z beach: It's a good idea, though.
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2020-03-26T19:15:15Z pjb: beach: it would only help newbies.
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2020-03-26T19:27:39Z Bike: i was going to say that might trip the u-a-e-t rules but i guess it's "okay" as long as you have nil arrays
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2020-03-26T19:33:04Z Josh_2: I do love it when I'm typing a question to ask for help on a problem I've had for the last hour and I figure it out :P
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2020-03-26T19:38:03Z aeth: And shouldn't they work because they're "immutable"? In the sense that you can't unintern them, etc.. Sure, you can symbol plist them or whatever.
2020-03-26T19:38:22Z hjudt_: a question about :around methods: i use an around method to track the time a method takes. in this around method, i do not use the multiple values that the method returns. do i need to capture these multiple values and return them in the around method in this case or not?
2020-03-26T19:38:26Z aeth: t will always refer to the same t, that's the important thing...
2020-03-26T19:39:32Z hjudt_: just to be clear: the method i am timing is called via (call-next-method) of course
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2020-03-26T19:41:33Z hjudt_: in the keene book (Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp) they say "It is customary but not required for around-methods to return the value or values of call-next-method."
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2020-03-26T19:41:55Z pjb: Bike: it's only an internal optimization.  aref would still return a boolean, ie. either cl:t or cl:nil.
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2020-03-26T19:42:30Z hjudt_: so is it really that customary? in my case, it is only causing more lines of code and further indentation.
2020-03-26T19:43:01Z Josh_2: okay, well I didn't solve my problem :(
2020-03-26T19:43:06Z pjb: Bike: and (upgraded-array-element-type 'boolean) -> boolean doesn't break any rule AFAICS.
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2020-03-26T19:43:45Z pjb: hjudt_: it's not a more lines of code.  It's whether you want to return the same value or not!
2020-03-26T19:43:59Z Xach: hjudt_: it is customary in the sense that that is the typical default behavior, but returning some other value is not explicitly forbidden. some value must be returned.
2020-03-26T19:44:12Z pjb: hjudt_: for example, you could have a around method weight that adds a tare to the weight returned by the main method.
2020-03-26T19:44:14Z Xach: there is no other mechanism for returning a value
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2020-03-26T19:44:35Z Xach: when i mean "default", i mean by choice of the programmer, not of the system
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2020-03-26T19:45:05Z Bike: like, if the method you're wrapping will always return exactly one value, you don't need to worry about it
2020-03-26T19:45:14Z Bike: but maybe you should take care of it because you might change the interface later
2020-03-26T19:45:43Z Bike: and then have to be like "hey, how come when i enable the profiling method my code stops working?", which is never a good bug to have
2020-03-26T19:46:59Z Xach: hjudt_: (let ((start (timestamp))) (multiple-value-prog1 (call-next-method) (record-timing start))))))) maybe?
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2020-03-26T19:47:18Z aeth: pjb: Afaik, a wrapper could only potentially break rules if you could unintern the symbol like (let ((foo (vector 'a 'b 'c))) (unintern 'a) foo) => #(#:A B C) because now any new 'a won't be EQ (or any form of equal) to the old 'a, now just an #:A
2020-03-26T19:47:26Z aeth: But CL:T and CL:NIL are safe
2020-03-26T19:48:05Z pjb: aeth: it's not a wrapper as such, since it's inside the implementation!
2020-03-26T19:48:36Z aeth: pjb: well, yes, conceptually it could also just be an array storing the actual symbols themselves, even though then it would probably be 64x larger in memory
2020-03-26T19:48:53Z aeth: (symbol references, I mean)
2020-03-26T19:49:48Z pjb: aeth: (defun aref (array &rest indicies) (if (eq (array-element-type array) 'boolean) (if (zerop (apply (function aref) (%array-internal-bitvector array) indicies)) 'nil 't) (%internal-aref array indicies)))
2020-03-26T19:50:00Z pjb: it's cl:aref if you're wondering.
2020-03-26T19:50:06Z hjudt_: yes, i simply want to return the values that (call-next-method) returns. i do not want to alter or enhance the results in the around method. that is, the behaviour should not be changed, and i probably will not care what the around method does because it's only purpose is to set some times on other fields. so if i leave it as is and do not capture the multiple values, would that be ok?
2020-03-26T19:50:40Z hjudt_: Xach: yes that would be a good solution probably, multiple-value-prog1.
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2020-03-26T19:50:53Z hjudt_: a more compact one than capturing with m-v-b at least.
2020-03-26T19:51:02Z Xach: hjudt_: you don't have to capture them if you return them in some other way. but the return value of the :around method is the return value of the GF. there is no other mechanism to get the "inner" value.
2020-03-26T19:51:53Z pjb: hjudt_: then either call-next-method is a terminal call, or you need to save the values and return them.
2020-03-26T19:53:12Z hjudt_: pjb: ok, so i _need_ to capture the values and return them. because if it was a terminal call, i could also have used a :before method.
2020-03-26T19:54:05Z Xach: What is a terminal call?
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2020-03-26T20:00:07Z hjudt_: Xach: I guess pjb means the call-next-method is at the end of the :around method.
2020-03-26T20:00:48Z hjudt_: anyway, i tried it now with a small example, and have ascertained that i _need_ to capture the return values in the around method, otherwise the values of the :around method itself will be returned.
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2020-03-26T20:01:08Z Bike: Yes, that's how :around works. Sorry we didn't make that clearer.
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2020-03-26T20:02:28Z Xach: hjudt_: do you consider multiple-value-prog1 to be capture?
2020-03-26T20:02:29Z hjudt_: i was confused by the statement in the book that "it is customary but not required."
2020-03-26T20:03:00Z Bike: I mean: how :around works is that the values of the :around method are always returned
2020-03-26T20:03:17Z hjudt_: Xach: maybe capture is not the right word.
2020-03-26T20:03:19Z Bike: those values could be the same as the values returned by an inner method, though, and usually are, but you have to write the :around method in such a way that that is accomplished
2020-03-26T20:03:57Z hjudt_: Bike: if i think about it a bit more, it makes sense because otherwise there was no way to return other values from :around.
2020-03-26T20:04:04Z Bike: right.
2020-03-26T20:04:34Z hjudt_: Xach: thanks for the m-v-prog1 hint, that was really helpful.
2020-03-26T20:04:37Z Bike: plus otherwise the generic function machinery itself would have to keep track of the return values, which might take consing, which would be kind of a silly reason to cons
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2020-03-26T20:06:26Z hjudt_: yes and it would probably be even more difficult to get at them
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2020-03-26T20:16:11Z hjudt_: i like this elegant way of using an around method, it makes that code smaller and more easily comprehensible.
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2020-03-26T20:25:03Z flip214: hjudt_: if you use SBCL, you could also look at TRACE to get a kind-of around method... or just use (sb-profile:profile function) ;)
2020-03-26T20:27:26Z flip214: hjudt_: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Deterministic-Profiler, http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-Tracing
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2020-03-26T20:39:18Z hjudt_: flip214: thanks. in my case, i really need the around method to be part of the program, not only for profiling. i track the durations an action takes and present it in the web ui. but your hint will make me read up on these sbcl features ;-)
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2020-03-26T21:40:43Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1721#1721 why does tst2 return 2?
2020-03-26T21:41:49Z Josh_2: why does the λ change the functionality?
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2020-03-26T21:45:30Z Bike: well, because (lambda () (special-if (x 1 2))) is a function, no?
2020-03-26T21:45:32Z pjb: Josh_2: tst2 doesn't return 2, it returns a closure.
2020-03-26T21:46:10Z Bike: did you think that it wouldn't change the functionality? could you describe what you think lambda does?
2020-03-26T21:46:46Z pjb: Josh_2: if you lie, we won't be friend long… https://termbin.com/t29s
2020-03-26T21:47:26Z Josh_2: oh yes sorry
2020-03-26T21:47:32Z Josh_2: my mistake xD
2020-03-26T21:47:45Z Josh_2: When I funcall the λ it returns two
2020-03-26T21:47:48Z pjb: and the result of tst2 itself returns 1: https://termbin.com/73l9
2020-03-26T21:47:52Z Josh_2: wat
2020-03-26T21:48:42Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/WJ0nmpW.png
2020-03-26T21:49:05Z Josh_2: returns 2 for me
2020-03-26T21:49:12Z pjb: (defun tst2 () 3) #| --> tst2 |#  (tst2) #| --> 3 |#  See, it returns 3 for me!
2020-03-26T21:49:22Z pjb: DUH
2020-03-26T21:49:56Z Bike: (tst1) = (funcall (tst2)) = 1 here.
2020-03-26T21:50:05Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-03-26T21:50:25Z Bike: Your repl is weird. Why is it printing numbers like emacs does? Where's the NIL coming from?
2020-03-26T21:50:37Z Josh_2: exactly
2020-03-26T21:51:29Z Josh_2: Why am I getting a different result
2020-03-26T21:51:36Z Josh_2: what did I break oof
2020-03-26T21:51:42Z Bike: are you sure you haven't redefined special-if or something in the interim?
2020-03-26T21:52:21Z pjb: Also, when you redefine a macro, you need to recompile and reload all the functions that use it.
2020-03-26T21:52:26Z Josh_2: nope
2020-03-26T21:52:40Z Josh_2: I restarted my lisp image, still getting 2
2020-03-26T21:52:58Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/h6FTbLz.png
2020-03-26T21:53:17Z pjb: you are not showing us the whole dribble, so we just don't believe you, liar!
2020-03-26T21:53:19Z Bike: Could you show the entire session? Like the part where you define the functions and macro as well?
2020-03-26T21:53:38Z pjb: We didn't saw any lisp image restarted.
2020-03-26T21:53:39Z Josh_2: sure
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2020-03-26T21:55:15Z ear-the-art: Bike, the NIL coming from the print, i think
2020-03-26T21:55:52Z Bike: hm, i suppose, though it doesn't make any sense for it to be nil
2020-03-26T21:56:01Z Josh_2: well now I'm getting 1
2020-03-26T21:56:04Z Josh_2: I'm so confused
2020-03-26T21:56:36Z Bike: prolly had a typo somewhere. it happens
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2020-03-26T22:02:16Z Josh_2: Well anyway I have another issue along the same lines https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1722#1722
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2020-03-26T22:03:57Z Josh_2: The form is printed fine, but when funcalled with 2 as the argument, instead of throwing an error it returns the value of byte
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2020-03-26T22:09:11Z Josh_2: I do not understand why a condition is not signalled. in the example I sent byte is 1 not 2..
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2020-03-26T22:16:24Z pjb: Josh_2: nope, this is not the error one gets: https://termbin.com/38mq   You are using an undefined operator tlet, which leads to this error!
2020-03-26T22:16:42Z Josh_2: yes
2020-03-26T22:17:01Z Josh_2: can just replace tlet with let and remove "integer"
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2020-03-26T22:18:03Z pjb: Then, Works for me: https://termbin.com/lh29
2020-03-26T22:20:00Z pjb: Josh_2: you should debug subexpressions separately.
2020-03-26T22:20:12Z Josh_2: but byte is not equal to 2, why wouldn't it error?
2020-03-26T22:21:10Z pjb: Josh_2: (eq byte 2) is true.
2020-03-26T22:21:14Z pjb: Josh_2: only CL:NIL is false.
2020-03-26T22:21:20Z pjb: Josh_2: everything else is true.
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2020-03-26T22:21:58Z pjb: Josh_2: https://termbin.com/t89i
2020-03-26T22:23:40Z Josh_2: I know that, but why isn't the form being evaluated
2020-03-26T22:24:07Z Josh_2: I know that (eq byte 2) is true, but why isn't (eq byte 2) being evaluated
2020-03-26T22:24:20Z pjb: Why should it be?
2020-03-26T22:24:27Z Josh_2: idk
2020-03-26T22:24:36Z pjb: You never evaluate it.
2020-03-26T22:24:43Z Josh_2: Well how do I?
2020-03-26T22:24:47Z Josh_2: That's my question basically
2020-03-26T22:24:52Z pjb: Ah! good.
2020-03-26T22:25:19Z pjb: Well, it's not easy.  You are wanting to build a form at run-time, and get it evaluated in a lexical scope.  This is not possible directly in CL.
2020-03-26T22:25:28Z Josh_2: ah
2020-03-26T22:25:41Z pjb: CL:EVAL evaluates in the global environment, not in a lexical scope.
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2020-03-26T22:26:25Z pjb: But you can keep susbtituting, because the lexical scope is known to you, at program editing time. SO you can write the code that will substitute, not with 'byte, but with the value of byte!
2020-03-26T22:26:36Z pjb: and then, use eval.
2020-03-26T22:26:55Z pjb: (let ((byte 2)) (eval (change-byte '(eq :byte 2) #|no quote|# byte))) #| --> t |#
2020-03-26T22:27:03Z Josh_2: the value of byte is not known until the λ is funcalled
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2020-03-26T22:27:32Z pjb: Then call change-byte at that time.
2020-03-26T22:27:43Z Josh_2: :(
2020-03-26T22:27:45Z Josh_2: didn't wanna do that
2020-03-26T22:27:47Z Josh_2: but I can
2020-03-26T22:27:53Z pjb: Now, if you prefer, you may generate a lambda-expression, and use eval coerce or compile to get a function.
2020-03-26T22:29:03Z pjb: But it won't be a closure. you must substitute into the lambda-expression all the values you need.
2020-03-26T22:29:53Z pjb: Now, since your function is named generate-<something> I would let it return the lambda-expression, and call eval, coerce or compile outside of it.
2020-03-26T22:32:24Z pjb: https://termbin.com/ijj6g
2020-03-26T22:32:56Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-03-26T22:32:58Z Josh_2: that could work
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2020-03-26T23:23:02Z Josh_2: pjb: Thanks for the help :) I have it all working now!
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2020-03-27T00:13:58Z amazoniantoad: Hi guys. Is there a way to suppress all warning from within slime?
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2020-03-27T00:20:18Z Bike: all warnings from all lisp code at all? don't think so
2020-03-27T00:20:39Z dlowe: there might be, but it wouldn't be portable across implementations
2020-03-27T00:20:41Z Bike: you could wrap the repl with a muffler, i guess, but i don't think slime has that as an option
2020-03-27T00:21:14Z Bike: and it probably wouldn't effect compilation stuff so much
2020-03-27T00:23:10Z amazoniantoad: Okay. Just like, most of the warnings then?
2020-03-27T00:23:22Z amazoniantoad: I'm getting a  very specific (and annoying) error
2020-03-27T00:23:36Z amazoniantoad: It is messing up my ability to read stuff because it kinda takes over
2020-03-27T00:23:42Z dlowe: which error is this?
2020-03-27T00:24:46Z amazoniantoad: WARNING: unrecognized declaration (IGNORE ARG1 ARG2)
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2020-03-27T00:27:06Z amazoniantoad: Sorry, not error. but a warning
2020-03-27T00:27:21Z no-defun-allowed: Where did you put that declaration?
2020-03-27T00:28:09Z amazoniantoad: inside of a function? I don't understand what you mean by where
2020-03-27T00:28:11Z amazoniantoad: Also nice username
2020-03-27T00:28:11Z Bike: it should give you a place the error is coming from
2020-03-27T00:28:14Z amazoniantoad: very funny
2020-03-27T00:28:18Z Bike: line number, file
2020-03-27T00:28:23Z amazoniantoad: Oh, well I know where the errors are coming from.
2020-03-27T00:28:25Z Bike: and you can fix it
2020-03-27T00:28:36Z Bike: did you shadow the IGNORE symbol, or something?
2020-03-27T00:28:43Z amazoniantoad: I am new to lisp. This is my partners code in an assignment. I'm just trying to suppress this warning
2020-03-27T00:29:23Z Bike: usually you fix the problem rather than suppress the warning
2020-03-27T00:29:32Z Bike: it looks like a simple one
2020-03-27T00:29:47Z Bike: if you paste some of the code, we can probably identify it for you, if you can't
2020-03-27T00:29:58Z amazoniantoad: I don't think he would like me sharing code. I'm sorry.
2020-03-27T00:30:00Z amazoniantoad: Thanks anyways
2020-03-27T00:30:20Z Bike: we're not going to steal his broken code :) maybe you should get him to fix it, then
2020-03-27T00:30:44Z amazoniantoad: He's done so much. I don't want to bug him, lol.
2020-03-27T00:30:55Z amazoniantoad: But maybe I should
2020-03-27T00:30:56Z amazoniantoad: idk
2020-03-27T00:32:26Z Bike: well, i'm going to guess here, but wherever the (ignore arg1 arg2) line is, try replacing that with (cl:ignore arg1 arg2)
2020-03-27T00:32:42Z amazoniantoad: Thanks. I'll try that
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2020-03-27T05:22:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-27T08:10:30Z aeth: Shinmera: Any chance of adding a NaN to float-features like you have infinities? There are many NaNs, of course, but I think any NaN would do when reading in a NaN from a file (or rather, a string representing the concept of "NaN"). It's just bits-single-float or bits-double-float with the right (wrong?) bits, I guess.
2020-03-27T08:10:51Z aeth: They also apparently have to be function calls, not constants, based on a conversation here a while back, maybe 4 years ago.
2020-03-27T08:11:46Z Shinmera: Hmm.
2020-03-27T08:12:10Z Shinmera: I suppose that's reasonable enough.
2020-03-27T08:12:22Z Shinmera: I won't implement it myself, but I'd be open to a PR.
2020-03-27T08:13:14Z aeth: e.g. (float-features:bits-single-float #x-4000)
2020-03-27T08:13:24Z aeth: I'm not sure I'd want to PR one line
2020-03-27T08:13:55Z Shinmera: There's documentation, testing, and more involved.
2020-03-27T08:14:05Z Shinmera: So definitely not just one line.
2020-03-27T08:17:00Z aeth: ah
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2020-03-27T10:02:04Z Josh_2: Morning all
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2020-03-27T10:14:10Z jackdaniel: df
2020-03-27T10:14:14Z jackdaniel: ops,sorry
2020-03-27T10:14:45Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2020-03-27T10:14:54Z beach: Hello jackdaniel.
2020-03-27T10:16:21Z jackdaniel: hey
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2020-03-27T13:57:23Z flip214: aeth: Krystof is working on that, AFAIK.
2020-03-27T13:57:41Z flip214: or mentioned that in December, at least.
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2020-03-27T17:33:02Z jasom: Just so I don't reinvent the wheel; is there a library for giving the number of weekdays between two timestamps?
2020-03-27T17:34:03Z beach: That sounds like trivial arithmetic.
2020-03-27T17:34:44Z beach: Oh, you exclude the weekend?
2020-03-27T17:35:06Z beach: That's slightly more complicated, granted.
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2020-03-27T18:01:01Z xristos: jasom: https://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/
2020-03-27T18:01:08Z aeth: Fortunately, it's not as bad as it sounds because there are only about a dozen or two years. I guess there would be 14: a Jan 1 with each day of the week and the presence or absence of Feb 29. Intervals that cross multiple years could complicate things, though.
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2020-03-27T18:03:09Z flip214: jasom: holidays are not important?
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2020-03-27T18:40:07Z stylewarning: https://github.com/stylewarning/lisp-random/blob/master/indent-stream.lisp
2020-03-27T18:40:12Z stylewarning: hope this helps u in ur journey
2020-03-27T18:40:30Z stylewarning: (inb4 pprint-logical-block)
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2020-03-27T18:41:04Z jackdaniel: kind of resembles indenting-output macro in McCLIM
2020-03-27T18:41:25Z stylewarning: where's that?
2020-03-27T18:42:14Z jackdaniel: functionality-wise, not code-wise
2020-03-27T18:42:15Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/blob/master/Core/clim-basic/extended-streams/text-formatting.lisp#L187
2020-03-27T18:42:45Z stylewarning: ah, cool :)
2020-03-27T18:42:46Z jackdaniel: also text-formatting demos in clim-examples "misc tests"
2020-03-27T18:42:57Z jackdaniel: show how you can format paragraphs etc
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2020-03-27T19:08:44Z _death: here's mine: https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/stream/indenting.lisp
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2020-03-27T19:38:07Z jasom: flip214: holidays are less important
2020-03-27T19:38:38Z jasom: xristos: I'm already using local-time, but it only has a single difference function and that only gives you the floor of the difference in years
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2020-03-27T19:39:35Z jasom: flip214: also there is no one standard for "holidays"
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2020-03-27T19:49:45Z _death: jasom: your best bet is to look at emacs's calendar code.. the authors also wrote a book called Calendrical Calculations and someone ported some of the code to CL https://gist.github.com/perusio/6687883
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2020-03-27T20:07:19Z Xach: hmm
2020-03-27T20:07:35Z Xach: i had the strong impression that Calendrical Calculations was originally in CL.
2020-03-27T20:08:12Z ecraven: it is a really great book ;)
2020-03-27T20:08:30Z Xach: it is available online used for a few dollars. i think i will get a copy sometime soon.
2020-03-27T20:08:36Z ecraven: and the code is well-written, I "ported" it to Scheme (mostly just rewrite a few macros)
2020-03-27T20:08:59Z _death: I think some people had issues with the code's license
2020-03-27T20:09:10Z ecraven: yes, I heard about that too
2020-03-27T20:09:44Z ecraven: I contacted one of the authors years ago about the Scheme port, he was very friendly, though I don't remember what he said exactly about the license
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2020-03-27T20:10:43Z ecraven: ok, found the emails, he suggested that the port would still need to adhere to the original license (free for non-commercial use, I think)
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2020-03-27T20:12:38Z jasom: ah, I can't use it if it's NC.
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2020-03-27T20:13:10Z ecraven: well, in theory, you could read the book (but not the code) and just implement the calculations yourself (depending on what exactly you need)
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2020-03-27T20:13:26Z ecraven: the actual calendrical calculations are not so complex, mostly the sun/moon stuff is hard
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2020-03-27T20:13:49Z _death: Xach: ah, the code in the book is indeed the CL code shown
2020-03-27T20:14:08Z ecraven: for number of weekdays, you "just" need to convert to rata die, calculate the difference, then check the weekdays
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2020-03-27T20:18:11Z ecraven: hm.. there's a fourth edition of CC? nice
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2020-03-27T21:55:43Z jasom: I went for the O(n) solution of "increment day by one, check if weekday"
2020-03-27T21:55:50Z jasom: will be easier to add holidays to that way anyways
2020-03-27T21:56:23Z MichaelRaskin: Oh yes
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2020-03-27T21:59:10Z jasom: and I can run 8000 years of total time difference per second on my machine
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2020-03-27T21:59:37Z jasom: which is fine for my use case of "dozens of deltas with a difference of no more than a few months"
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2020-03-27T23:13:17Z _death: can you not precompute the relevant time range?
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2020-03-27T23:16:10Z jasom: most of the ranges are on the order of a few days, so I don't see how precomputing would help
2020-03-27T23:18:38Z _death: say a bitmap of around 90 years.. that's about 4kb
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2020-03-27T23:22:20Z aeth: _death: There are, afaik, only 14 years. Jan 1st on each day of the week and the presence and absence of Feb 29th. So you could just store those and have rules for ranges that span multiple years.
2020-03-27T23:23:00Z aeth: holidays can be a separate pass, just subtract 1 if the holidy is in the range and on a weekday
2020-03-27T23:23:20Z aeth: (and do (max 0 ...) so you don't go negative)
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2020-03-27T23:28:15Z _death: well, it's just a popcount to get weekdays in the representation I'm thinking of.. you could have one bitset for each calendar and union/intersect if needed
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2020-03-27T23:29:33Z _death: if something changes, all that's needed is to update the bitsets
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2020-03-27T23:36:36Z pjb: yep.
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2020-03-28T00:03:32Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determination_of_the_day_of_the_week
2020-03-28T00:03:52Z aeth: I was thinking about a "perpeutal calendar", which, as that page says, is a lookup table
2020-03-28T00:04:58Z aeth: but there are quite a few direct algorithms
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2020-03-28T00:06:50Z _death: by "weekday" I understood "workday" (hence holidays are relevant)
2020-03-28T00:07:12Z aeth: _death: as I said, you can do a second pass to subtract holidays if it falls in the range.
2020-03-28T00:07:21Z aeth: only the holidays need tables (in particular, Easter)
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2020-03-28T00:08:32Z _death: note that holidays are political and subject to change ("business logic")
2020-03-28T00:09:44Z aeth: DST, too
2020-03-28T00:09:56Z aeth: DST can affect what day something falls on
2020-03-28T00:11:58Z _death: so having a bitset representation is convenient to allow such ad hoc changes.. in fact it could be made into a project resembling the time zone database, and become useful to many people.. maybe there's already a project like that
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2020-03-28T00:15:48Z _death: though such a project could get more ambitious and need a more complex representation to support all kinds of annotations
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2020-03-28T00:32:27Z MichaelRaskin: Note that some _parts_ of Germany have a ton of holidays of form Easter+N. The original meaning of holiday, yes. Different parts seem to have different amounts.
2020-03-28T00:32:59Z aeth: If you keep a database of holidays, congratulations, you have now chosen the project that will occupy you for the rest of your life.
2020-03-28T00:33:39Z Bike: surely some poor person working for a bank has started that project already
2020-03-28T00:33:46Z MichaelRaskin: Then there is Russia where it is completely normal to have a working Saturday to bridge preceding Tuesday holiday with preceding weekend
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2020-03-28T00:34:51Z aeth: Bike: When has something already being written stopped someone from writing it again?
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2020-03-28T00:35:48Z Bike: this dream i had once where if you wrote something unoriginal you'd be eaten by a nuckelavee.
2020-03-28T00:36:34Z MichaelRaskin: This reminds me the story about greetings in an IRC channel where posting a line that has ever been posted leads to a kick
2020-03-28T00:36:52Z Bike: robot nine thousand?
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2020-03-28T00:37:42Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: alternatively, you can start with the most common line in any channel and work your way down from there...
2020-03-28T00:37:45Z aeth: Good morning everyone!
2020-03-28T00:38:19Z aeth: :-P
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2020-03-28T01:00:40Z srandon111: guys can you suggest some good book to learn clisp?
2020-03-28T01:00:44Z srandon111: common lisp
2020-03-28T01:00:58Z srandon111: i mean...  i found this... http://gigamonkeys.com/book/
2020-03-28T01:01:01Z srandon111: is this good?
2020-03-28T01:04:09Z Bike: yeah.
2020-03-28T01:04:14Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Online+Tutorial https://cliki.net/Lisp%20Books etc.
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2020-03-28T01:05:19Z aeth: srandon111: clisp is a great short name for Common Lisp, but unfortunately, CLISP is an implementation (and not the most popular one), so we tend to use CL
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2020-03-28T01:06:02Z pjb: or COMMON-LISP which are the names of the CL package that you must use to use CL.
2020-03-28T01:06:55Z White_Flame: srandon111: that book is the most commonly recommended one here
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2020-03-28T01:08:42Z aeth: pjb: or you could call it, as a long name... COMMON Object-oriented Modern Mathematical Omnipresent Necessary Lisp
2020-03-28T01:09:34Z White_Flame: ...Necessary Language Involving Symbolic Processing
2020-03-28T01:10:23Z aeth: White_Flame: But only the COMMON part is recursive in my acronym
2020-03-28T01:10:36Z aeth: So after the first recursion, it's just common
2020-03-28T01:11:06Z aeth: I guess you could make it COMMON-LISP instead
2020-03-28T01:11:49Z White_Flame: COMMON Object/Mathematical Manipulating Operational Notation LISP Integrating Symbolic Processing
2020-03-28T01:12:30Z White_Flame declares "LISt Processing" dead
2020-03-28T01:13:39Z aeth: oooh
2020-03-28T01:13:47Z aeth: that's true, it's all about LISP processing now
2020-03-28T01:14:00Z aeth: I like "Operational Notation"
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2020-03-28T01:15:02Z aeth: I do like how that does explain everything you can do with it, too. OOP, functional programming ("mathematical"), and macros ("symbolic processing")
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2020-03-28T01:31:26Z srandon111: thanks aeth
2020-03-28T01:32:36Z srandon111: are there other good resources to learn lisp?
2020-03-28T01:32:56Z srandon111: something like interactive excercises and similar?
2020-03-28T01:33:09Z White_Flame: "Land of Lisp" is another instructional book that uses game making exercises
2020-03-28T01:33:43Z White_Flame: it's not as explanatory, but if doing & figuring out how it works is more your learning style, that can be good
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2020-03-28T01:34:47Z srandon111: White_Flame, so should i go with sbcl ?
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2020-03-28T01:35:10Z White_Flame: as a learner, the differences between the various implementations aren't going to be noticeable
2020-03-28T01:35:22Z aeth: srandon111: SBCL is currently the most popular implementation
2020-03-28T01:35:28Z White_Flame: SBCL is certainly the most popular here, though, because of the fast code it generates
2020-03-28T01:35:32Z srandon111: okok
2020-03-28T01:35:34Z srandon111: thanks
2020-03-28T01:35:46Z aeth: SBCL is more popular than CCL which is more popular than the rest, but of course exact numbers would be hard to find
2020-03-28T01:36:05Z srandon111: ok another thing... are there any advantages in learning common lisp wrt to clojure... i mean interms of libraries and modernity?
2020-03-28T01:36:10Z White_Flame: CCL had much stronger cross-platform support than SBCL, but I think the latter has basically caught up
2020-03-28T01:36:13Z srandon111: mayeb it is a stupid question
2020-03-28T01:36:22Z White_Flame: both are fairly niche languages
2020-03-28T01:36:24Z srandon111: but i know clojure is very modern asa language
2020-03-28T01:36:32Z srandon111: so i was wondering what do you think about it
2020-03-28T01:36:41Z aeth: what does "modern" mean?
2020-03-28T01:36:54Z White_Flame: "recent", yes.  "modern"?  who knows
2020-03-28T01:37:04Z mwgkgk: some libraries, yes: Clx for lisp is probably better than java X11 bindings
2020-03-28T01:37:30Z mwgkgk: which additionally goes for StumpWM which has no real counterpart in clojure
2020-03-28T01:37:35Z White_Flame: and if you're working with Java libs imported into clojure, you're going to be dealing with Java-isms all the time, which is a downside
2020-03-28T01:37:56Z aeth: As far as "modern" dynamic languages, what you tend to get are gradual typing (SBCL has this, through type declarations) and some form of embedded regex (CL doesn't have this, but you could just write a trivial reader macro on top of cl-ppcre or something else
2020-03-28T01:37:58Z Ober: especially on NPEs
2020-03-28T01:38:09Z aeth: Maybe JSON in the standard library too but that's so unimportant when every other language has like 5 JSON libraries
2020-03-28T01:38:42Z White_Flame: lisp's "package manager" is called quicklisp, and has some thousands of libs easily loadable
2020-03-28T01:39:05Z Ober: White_Flame: interesting... I can't find reference to it in the clhs, or the spec... :P
2020-03-28T01:39:07Z White_Flame: lisp was a bit late to the party on that one, primarily because it's pretty easy to roll your own stuff and there's less reliance on libs
2020-03-28T01:39:25Z aeth: I guess modern could include package managers (CL has these) as well as system threads (so you can use all 16 cores or whatever you happen to have) and CL doesn't have threads in the standard, but nearly every implementation has them, and you can portably use them with bordeaux-threads
2020-03-28T01:40:01Z aeth: another thing about modern is Unicode, which, yes, most CLs have. Most implementations are (or at least can be) 64-bit, too.
2020-03-28T01:40:08Z aeth: Is anything else missing from a list of modern features?
2020-03-28T01:41:35Z Ober: and lisp code today will continue to run in 30 years
2020-03-28T01:41:56Z White_Flame: Ober: that's not very modern. ;)  Modern would require rewrites every few months
2020-03-28T01:42:12Z Ober: that's fast fashion :P
2020-03-28T01:42:38Z srandon111: aeth, yes i meant recent
2020-03-28T01:43:13Z Ober: JS being a lisp, I still run js I wrote in 97
2020-03-28T01:43:36Z aeth: White_Flame: well, no, most languages (Python 3 excluded) keep backwards compatibility, and you rewrite your code because of the libraries changing, not the language. Sort of like how the Linux API is stable but that doesn't mean that your 1995 binary will still run, because of the libraries.
2020-03-28T01:43:39Z White_Flame: yeah, it has the web keeping everything old working
2020-03-28T01:44:01Z White_Flame: (^re Ober)
2020-03-28T01:44:22Z White_Flame: aeth: right, I more meant a modern ecosystem is a fast moving target
2020-03-28T01:44:34Z White_Flame: rather than purely the language spec
2020-03-28T01:44:35Z Ober: funny thing, gf had an unopened Navigator 1.0 box, still in shrinkwrap. the binary for bsd ran still on x86 netbsd...
2020-03-28T01:44:41Z aeth: I guess some languages deprecate, but they tend to err on the side of having the same feature implemented 5 times but only the newest one implemented well, just to avoid breaking old code
2020-03-28T01:45:28Z White_Flame: but taking JS as an example, the language is pretty messy, and thus the libs redefine the programming environment to make it "better", so the frameworks tend to be more definitive than the lanuage.  That also includes polyfilling and such so that the underlying language becomes more hidden
2020-03-28T01:46:09Z aeth: eh
2020-03-28T01:46:13Z Ober: ^^ good point
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2020-03-28T01:46:29Z aeth: CL absolutely gives you the freedom to mess things as much as you want
2020-03-28T01:46:41Z aeth: I just haven't seen anyone do that outside of https://github.com/cl21/cl21 which no one uses
2020-03-28T01:47:01Z White_Flame: yeah, CL libs tend to be more composable
2020-03-28T01:47:14Z White_Flame: JS tends to be encompassing scope redefiners
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2020-03-28T01:47:20Z aeth: People probably reject dramatic redifintions of the language because CL gives you so much freedom, so such libraries are completely incomprehensible and might as well be new programming languages
2020-03-28T01:47:49Z White_Flame: and it's the opposite in JS because people fundamentally hate the base language they're forced to use ;)
2020-03-28T01:47:51Z Ober: transpiler would be nice to have
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2020-03-28T01:48:14Z White_Flame: Ober: macros are transpilers
2020-03-28T01:48:23Z Ober: which ones?
2020-03-28T01:48:35Z White_Flame: all of htem
2020-03-28T01:48:39Z Ober: aye
2020-03-28T01:48:43Z White_Flame: (CL macros, specifically)
2020-03-28T01:48:53Z Ober: well I meant, compiler macros, or
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2020-03-28T01:49:14Z White_Flame: ah, well defmacro is the most clearly matching
2020-03-28T01:49:45Z White_Flame: since there's no fallback or anything.  The output must be valid in the lower language
2020-03-28T01:50:16Z aeth: that doesn't mean anything, though, since you can use a reader macro to essentially completely change everything
2020-03-28T01:50:29Z Ober: for me running a clojure shop, the cto wanted to do all the CL ways with it, but in the end it's just java.
2020-03-28T01:50:44Z Ober: "save image" noop.
2020-03-28T01:51:38Z Ober: isn't there a clojure package for cl to support some of it's features?
2020-03-28T01:52:09Z White_Flame: cloture
2020-03-28T01:52:25Z White_Flame: I have it bookmarked, but I don't know clojure yet so I don't know how well it works
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2020-03-28T01:53:31Z Ober: https://github.com/ruricolist/cloture
2020-03-28T01:55:03Z aeth: eww, I don't know what's worse, that it uses .lisp for clojure files or that Github detects it
2020-03-28T01:55:49Z aeth: it uses the same library as Gitlab so that might explain why most of my Scheme is erroneously being identified as Scheme. My macros are too good at faking Scheme from CL.
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2020-03-28T02:09:28Z srandon111: Ober, what? JS ?
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2020-03-28T02:19:32Z srandon111: anyway what do you like about lisp wrt other programming languages?
2020-03-28T02:19:38Z srandon111: i mean are these macros used so often?
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2020-03-28T02:20:40Z White_Flame: I really need to record my thoughts on that, as I've expressed it often
2020-03-28T02:20:45Z White_Flame searches
2020-03-28T02:21:01Z no-defun-allowed: I use them enough that not having them could be annoying, but I don't try to use them frequently.
2020-03-28T02:21:51Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, can you make some examples?
2020-03-28T02:22:06Z aeth: White_Flame: I used to be like that, but now all I do is write macros
2020-03-28T02:22:27Z srandon111: aeth, isn't it a bad programming practice?
2020-03-28T02:22:34Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, the interactive environment is well above average (it could be better, but it's still superb).
2020-03-28T02:23:30Z White_Flame: srandon111: a prior convo I kept: https://pastebin.com/JZ8ayYit
2020-03-28T02:24:24Z no-defun-allowed: Here is a use of a macro I wrote that defines a program for my bytecode interpreter: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Tests/benchmark.lisp#L77
2020-03-28T02:25:59Z no-defun-allowed: I guess the macro is trivial enough, in that (define-script name constants . body) expands to (defparameter name (compile-program constants body)), but having the code be normal lists and symbols instead of some other structure makes writing a program fairly simple.
2020-03-28T02:26:24Z phadthai: I like that it's fast for prototyping without caring about optimization and then it can be worked in where too slow; I like the interactive and incremental development; I like that for every problem that can be expressed more elegantly it doesn't always mean needing to rewrite a language or config parser or interpreter sacrificing performance (macros are great there)...
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2020-03-28T02:28:10Z phadthai: there are things to dislike of course too, on some very small systems, if not wanting cross-compiling, lisp might just be too heavy vs another interactive language like forth
2020-03-28T02:28:17Z White_Flame: the thing is, many languages have taken on aspects of lisp (first class functions, GC, rich numeric stack & type system, REPL, etc) but none integrate it together as well as lisp does, because their code forms are not plain data
2020-03-28T02:28:47Z White_Flame: syntax becomes the enemy when you're running code at compile-time, or transforming data specs into runnable code
2020-03-28T02:28:58Z phadthai: another is that popular languages have tons of libraries that may lag behind for lisp or just be too sparsed among disparate individual developer repositories, the work to interface to other stuff like FFI can be challenging at first too
2020-03-28T02:29:26Z no-defun-allowed: There are also compilers (not batch compilers, like gcc or ghc, they can be invoked at runtime) that produce decent machine code for unoptimised programs, which as phadthai says, lets you leave the most optimisation for the slowest parts.
2020-03-28T02:29:40Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, i can't understand the purpose....
2020-03-28T02:29:53Z srandon111: defines a program for the bytecode interpreter??? to what purpose?
2020-03-28T02:30:41Z White_Flame: for running your own bytecode machine
2020-03-28T02:30:45Z no-defun-allowed: There's a lot of context you would want, but I have a bytecode interpreter which can be run by other people over a network to do things reproducibly.
2020-03-28T02:31:11Z srandon111: White_Flame, i am too noob to understand the applications
2020-03-28T02:31:25Z srandon111: also by reading the one conversation you kept
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2020-03-28T02:31:32Z srandon111: i can't understand what those applications are
2020-03-28T02:31:39Z White_Flame: lisp is a great language to create small embedded utility languages inside of it; and/or create new high level languages on top of it and not worry about machine code details
2020-03-28T02:31:39Z srandon111: or how macro would help solving them
2020-03-28T02:31:51Z White_Flame: right, that's what I referenced in the pastebin above
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2020-03-28T02:32:02Z White_Flame: if you haven't hit the limits in other langauges yet, it's nearly impossible to describe the benefit
2020-03-28T02:32:15Z White_Flame: because the pain point it addresses so well isn't known yet
2020-03-28T02:32:33Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, another one. You can invent your own namespaces in Lisp using macros, which IMHO is a bit cleaner and more general than using decorators in Python.
2020-03-28T02:33:30Z srandon111: namespaces??
2020-03-28T02:33:43Z srandon111: i mean they depend on the files in python
2020-03-28T02:33:53Z srandon111: i mean on the filename
2020-03-28T02:33:56Z aeth: srandon111: It depends on what you're doing. Sometimes what you're doing is best expressed as a macro.
2020-03-28T02:33:57Z srandon111: not on the decorators
2020-03-28T02:34:16Z no-defun-allowed: namespace: a mapping of names to datum
2020-03-28T02:34:30Z phadthai: it's a compiled language that evolved many dynamic aspects, as such it's also interesting: can be surprisingly fast with good code on a good implementation, while at the same time very dynamic; things like the distinction between defvar and defparameter are also important, it decides what happens at image load time or when recompiling some code in a live interactive image
2020-03-28T02:34:38Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, aren't you talking about namespaces as i know them in java/ and so on?
2020-03-28T02:34:55Z aeth: srandon111: Once you're used to macros (which takes a while) a macro is just list traversal. The hard part is making it look like it was built into the language so people can actually read the macro. What you don't want is something like LOOP, but e.g. writing your own CASE with a different quality test is perfectly fine
2020-03-28T02:34:55Z no-defun-allowed: Not so much like any other language, just in a general sense.
2020-03-28T02:35:28Z aeth: s/quality test/test/
2020-03-28T02:35:33Z aeth: I'm not sure what I was trying to say there
2020-03-28T02:35:42Z no-defun-allowed: Say you have a web server framework, and you want to define a function for handling some page. In Python you might write @get("/url") def url_handler(...): ...
2020-03-28T02:36:01Z no-defun-allowed: In Lisp the framework could write (define-easy-handler (url-handler :url "/url") ...)
2020-03-28T02:36:13Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, since i think this thing about macro is quite questioned by noobs like me... isn't there a website/resource which tries to explain the benefits with examples?
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2020-03-28T02:36:22Z no-defun-allowed: The mapping of URLs to handlers would be a namespace to me.
2020-03-28T02:37:10Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: right, properly written macros look more built-in than other a lot of other languages' metaprogramming, particularly C++<template<template<template<template... and Python/etc. @stuff
2020-03-28T02:37:21Z aeth: So it actually stands out less
2020-03-28T02:37:30Z phadthai: and in lisp the html templates can result in much native code (much processed at compile time) vs all interpreted
2020-03-28T02:37:37Z aeth: And if you use the right names, nobody's going to confuse a macro and a function, especially since a macro probably should have a &body
2020-03-28T02:37:49Z aeth: And since you can see the API in something like Emacs, if you see &body you know it's a macro
2020-03-28T02:38:45Z srandon111: aeth, yes most likely i am missing all this stuff since  i still don't really know well lisp
2020-03-28T02:38:51Z aeth: phadthai: right, any kind of HTML template system is either going to turn into a constant string at compile time, or (if it takes in input) it's going to generate something more or less like a FORMAT string
2020-03-28T02:38:51Z srandon111: i learned a little bit of clojure
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2020-03-28T02:39:30Z White_Flame: srandon111: simple case:  You want to add instrumentation to your code, to track execution for profiling, coverage, whatever.  The desire is "Every time I define a function, I want it statically recorded somewhere in a table, and on entry/exit it should call code and report on its parameters automatically.  It's a right pain in other languages; in CL you simply wrap DEFUN in another macro
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2020-03-28T02:39:42Z phadthai: aeth: I agree to you agreeing :)
2020-03-28T02:39:47Z aeth: srandon111: I think Clojure is more culturally against macros than Common Lisp is. In Common Lisp, it's fine as long as it fits a simple pattern, like WITH- (usually wrapping an UNWIND-PROTECT, but sometimes just a LET), DEFINE- (almost always ultimately just a DEFUN), etc.
2020-03-28T02:40:38Z srandon111: aeth, yes exactly
2020-03-28T02:40:43Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, Clojure does not use macros so much.
2020-03-28T02:41:06Z aeth: oh, another one that's a bit less common is DO-, for custom iteration
2020-03-28T02:41:13Z srandon111: White_Flame, damn... now i understand... cool
2020-03-28T02:41:17Z aeth: e.g. DOLIST built in because DOLIST existed before the - was invented.
2020-03-28T02:41:52Z aeth: I kind of hate the DO-FOO pattern a bit because that can get annoying... iterators in LOOP (which aren't a thing) would be a lot more convenient
2020-03-28T02:41:56Z White_Flame: srandon111: and that DEFUN macro can look at the _source code_ of the DEFUN, and handle the name, the literal parameter list, etc, and generate the _source code_ which performs all the registrations and wrap the body source code of the defun wiht the tracking stuff
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2020-03-28T02:42:04Z White_Flame: since it's all just lists
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2020-03-28T02:42:16Z White_Flame: (for the most part...  some devlish details)
2020-03-28T02:42:16Z srandon111: White_Flame, that's cool
2020-03-28T02:42:26Z srandon111: now i am starting to understand
2020-03-28T02:42:52Z aeth: In general, the scariest macro you're going to see is a DEFINE-FOO that is built on DEFINE-BAR that is built on a DEFINE-BAZ that is built on a DEFINE-QUUX ... etc. that ultimately is a DEFUN
2020-03-28T02:42:53Z White_Flame: and any little clause in the language can be generated in the same way
2020-03-28T02:43:06Z aeth: But in the case I gave, you just repeatedly use MACROEXPAND-1
2020-03-28T02:43:15Z aeth: since the top level is always the relevant macro
2020-03-28T02:43:23Z aeth: It gets messier if the relevant macro is nested in the interior
2020-03-28T02:43:40Z srandon111: White_Flame, anyway this isn't masking source code to others?
2020-03-28T02:43:46Z srandon111:  i mean having a macro called DEFUN
2020-03-28T02:43:54Z White_Flame: and that transformation is just plain lisp code, which can call all the same utility functions etc (as long as they're there at compile-time)
2020-03-28T02:43:54Z srandon111: while this is also a keyword for another thing...
2020-03-28T02:44:08Z White_Flame: it's codegen/metaprogramming/code-transformation
2020-03-28T02:44:38Z White_Flame: you can literally have your own DEFUN that source code will syntactically use, by setting up your packages right
2020-03-28T02:44:47Z no-defun-allowed: Usually a macro makes the language one works in "higher level", by allowing the client to ignore how it's implemented.
2020-03-28T02:44:51Z White_Flame: or, you can have DEFUN* or whatever variant that you specifically use intentionally
2020-03-28T02:45:07Z White_Flame: I think you meant "alias"?
2020-03-28T02:45:10Z aeth: There's exactly one time when a macro is really, really bad and that's code-walker macros. No one does them correctly. Imagine a macro that walks through the source and replaces all (foo 42) with "Aeth is the best programmer because Aeth writes the most clever macros." There are so many ways that can break.
2020-03-28T02:45:17Z White_Flame: or "shadowing"?
2020-03-28T02:45:20Z aeth: And it's so hard to figure out what's going on in a codewalker, too.
2020-03-28T02:45:27Z no-defun-allowed: It's more of a case of "I don't want to know", rather than "I don't get to know"; but MACROEXPAND (or the macroexpander mode in SLIME, invoked using C-c M-e) lets you figure out what the macro does.
2020-03-28T02:46:11Z White_Flame: and building onf n-d-a's comment, Lisp is one of the only runtime-compiled languages that actually lets you drill allt he way down to the assembly language to see what's going on
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2020-03-28T02:48:40Z aeth: Keep in mind though that if a macro doesn't have a &body (more rarely, some other form of nested destructuring), it's almost always a bad idea because you can just inline a function instead. Obviously, it's needed for things like OR, though.
2020-03-28T02:48:52Z srandon111: White_Flame, aeth  why macros are discouraged in clojure?
2020-03-28T02:49:09Z White_Flame isn't a clojure programmer
2020-03-28T02:49:43Z srandon111: sorry i means aeth
2020-03-28T02:50:04Z srandon111: ok so basically with macros i can pass "the body" of a function to it and modify as i wish it right?
2020-03-28T02:50:21Z White_Flame: generally you wrap it or generate additional code
2020-03-28T02:50:29Z no-defun-allowed: They try to do things very functionally, from what I've heard.
2020-03-28T02:50:32Z White_Flame: but yes, you can break down a code body given to it, with constraints
2020-03-28T02:50:32Z aeth: I'm not a Clojure programmer, either, but I'm guessing that the more purely functional your language is, the more you prefer higher order functions, which do pretty much all of the same things, just syntactically differently. In fact, quite a few macros are just wrappers over a higher order function or a lambda (all the DEFINE- ones are basically just globally binding a lambda)
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2020-03-28T02:51:12Z White_Flame: srandon111: consider IF.  It has 'test', 'then' and 'else'.  You treat those as opaque code blocks that you assemble a larger body with
2020-03-28T02:51:27Z White_Flame: and arrange them such that only 1 of THEN or ELSE ever actually execute
2020-03-28T02:52:15Z White_Flame: COND is actually defined to be a macro, not a built-in special form
2020-03-28T02:52:36Z White_Flame: because you can tack together code snippets into an IF tree or other ways
2020-03-28T02:53:00Z aeth: srandon111: (let ((x 42) (y 43)) (+ x y)) is the effectively the same thing, and could be implemented, as ((lambda (x y) (+ x y)) 42 43) so you never need macros as long as you have lambdas, technically.
2020-03-28T02:53:34Z aeth: Of course, the LET is clearer, and if you want to do LET* the same way, you're going to get much, much messier because now you have to next lambdas of one variable... but it's not that bad if you have a currying macro or however that's done.
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2020-03-28T02:54:18Z aeth: I don't know about Clojure, but I do know that in Scheme, they really love making everything ultimately just be a lambda if you dig deeply enough.
2020-03-28T02:54:45Z aeth: Common Lisp isn't as purist, a lot of things in macros are ultimately just contained gotos in the form of GO within a TAGBODY (or implicit TAGBODY)
2020-03-28T02:55:19Z no-defun-allowed: As another example of macrology, look at a demo like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prIwpKL57dM&t=1217 that I found in my logs. Instead of writing an interpreter for this little simulation as the presenter did, you could generate Lisp code that does what the rules do.
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2020-03-28T02:55:46Z srandon111: White_Flame, ok so basically i can wrap my function to do e.g., debugging... but what are other typical applications?
2020-03-28T02:55:46Z White_Flame: yes, that's another thing.  It's generally as easy (or easier) to write a compiler in lisp than an interpreter
2020-03-28T02:55:51Z aeth: This has some implications. Common Lisp and Scheme both have nearly-identical DO macros, but if you create a closure in Common Lisp, the DO will capture the final binding of the variable, while Scheme will remember the value, because Scheme used lambdas and Common Lisp used gotos so Common Lisp was updating the environment each time while Scheme was making a new one.
2020-03-28T02:55:54Z srandon111: i am imagining function generation?
2020-03-28T02:56:04Z srandon111: but for that i need code walkers
2020-03-28T02:56:09Z srandon111: and you said that they are bad
2020-03-28T02:56:21Z White_Flame: function generation is fine
2020-03-28T02:56:35Z White_Flame: given a code body, trying to dissect it can be problematic because you don't ultimately know what's code and what's data in those sublists
2020-03-28T02:57:02Z White_Flame: so construction via macros is fine.  Destructuring bodies inside macros can be problematic in edge cases
2020-03-28T02:57:24Z srandon111: i mean what do you them for generally?
2020-03-28T02:57:27Z srandon111: function generation?
2020-03-28T02:57:34Z srandon111: or wrapping a function for debugging?
2020-03-28T02:57:42Z aeth: White_Flame: Well a compiler in Lisp just targets asm in s-expression form or native Common Lisp itself (since the compiler will just run on it eventually anyway), while an interpreter will target some abstract machine... so compilers are a bit easier than interpreters in Common Lisp imo.
2020-03-28T02:57:56Z White_Flame: sure, completel function generation, defining data tables & code bodies from specs, adding features to defun/defstruct/etc, doing custom tests, etc
2020-03-28T02:58:29Z White_Flame: srandon111: the thing is, I was a metaprogrammer in other languages, and it was a massive pain
2020-03-28T02:58:58Z White_Flame: lisp made all that complexity go away, and makes codegen such a simple and integrated operation that you don't even think anything special or difficult of it after a while
2020-03-28T02:58:59Z aeth: srandon111: if my codewalker expands (foo 42) to "Hello world" then (foo 42) looks like a function, but it never existed. Depending on the implementation, it might also erroneously substitute (foo 42) in (let ((foo 42)) ...)
2020-03-28T02:59:00Z srandon111: White_Flame, wait ... " defining data tables & code bodies from spec" what? how?
2020-03-28T02:59:04Z White_Flame: it's just a natural part of programmign
2020-03-28T02:59:12Z White_Flame: srandon111: it's just transformations
2020-03-28T02:59:16Z White_Flame: data in, data out
2020-03-28T02:59:22Z White_Flame: data in is spec, data out is code
2020-03-28T02:59:35Z srandon111: White_Flame, do you have some examples i can give a look at?
2020-03-28T03:00:32Z srandon111: White_Flame, ok so basically macros are  a way to do metaprogramming...
2020-03-28T03:02:16Z aeth: srandon111: In Common Lisp a macro is basically just something like this, with bindings in and some quoted source form as the output: (defmacro foo (&body body) `(quote ,body))
2020-03-28T03:02:47Z aeth: I chose QUOTE as the simplest macro to demostrate because then you can do (foo a b c d) and get (A B C D) out. Otherwise, it would try to evaluate.
2020-03-28T03:02:56Z White_Flame: srandon111: here's some very simple syntactic sugar macros, to map one lisp-like langauge onto common lisp: https://github.com/white-flame/clyc/blob/master/subl-support.lisp#L218
2020-03-28T03:03:26Z White_Flame: and you can't define stuff like that in functions
2020-03-28T03:04:06Z White_Flame: things like passing in names of local variables; a macro can expand into doing something with that var, while you'd have to do tedious wrapping to make a function out of it
2020-03-28T03:04:26Z aeth: This is slightly more useful: (defmacro reverse-call (&body body) (reverse body)) (reverse-call 1 2 3 +) => 6
2020-03-28T03:04:40Z srandon111: ok but can't understand "v"
2020-03-28T03:04:44Z srandon111: "  `(setf ,place (nconc ,list ,place)))"
2020-03-28T03:05:26Z White_Flame: (npush-list (list 1 2 3) foo) will expand to:
2020-03-28T03:05:26Z White_Flame: (setf foo (nconc (list 1 2 3) foo))
2020-03-28T03:05:42Z White_Flame: "foo" canbe the name of a local variable
2020-03-28T03:05:48Z phadthai: setf is nice
2020-03-28T03:05:54Z phadthai: also symbol-macro
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2020-03-28T03:06:04Z phadthai: hmm symbol-macrolet
2020-03-28T03:06:08Z White_Flame: so the macro expands to destructively concatenating a list in the front of the existing value of the variable
2020-03-28T03:06:20Z aeth: 90% of Common Lisp macros come down to understanding quasiquote, although if they're really trivial like my reverse-call macro, they don't even need that, they just need to return a list at the end.
2020-03-28T03:06:32Z White_Flame: but even look at stupid things like "must-not" in line 228
2020-03-28T03:07:07Z White_Flame: ` and , and ,@ are list template substitution things
2020-03-28T03:07:28Z White_Flame: but the model of what's going on is that it takes source code, and returns source code, which is compiled into your functions
2020-03-28T03:08:07Z aeth: ` just makes things look like the resulting source code and aren't really needed, you can do (list a b 'c 'd) or you could do `(,a ,b c d) and it's the same thing. Generally, you prefer ` unless you need to put a ` in a ` in which case good luck knowing how to read the nested layers of unquoting ,
2020-03-28T03:08:25Z phadthai: and with- macros, destructuring-bind, the condition system, clos,
2020-03-28T03:08:44Z srandon111: White_Flame, ok let's continue this conversation in few days i mean i clearly need some studying
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2020-03-28T03:09:22Z White_Flame: yep.  Also, it probably would be useful to shift to #clschool at that point
2020-03-28T03:09:55Z aeth: ,@ is a bit trickier because it splices the following list in. It basically removes a layer of parens. So something like `(progn ,@body) is fairly common in macros because it takes a list of Lisp syntax and puts a PROGN in front so it doesn't try to funcall the first element, but instead executes them in order
2020-03-28T03:10:12Z aeth: note that body is a list, which is why you ,@ instead of , to place it in the progn.
2020-03-28T03:11:11Z aeth: For that particular use of ,@ you could just do (cons 'progn body) instead.
2020-03-28T03:12:07Z srandon111: White_Flame, ok thanks i did that... also if i have to admit that for now... to me it seems more appealing the lambda philosophy of scheme languages
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2020-03-28T03:13:26Z White_Flame: srandon111: yes.  Scheme started as an academic minamalist language, which meant you need to build everything from scratch
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2020-03-28T03:13:36Z aeth: Other than the use of ` , ,@ and GENSYM, macros are basically just regular list processing.
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2020-03-28T03:13:49Z White_Flame: common lisp formed by coalescing together a bunch of commercial Lisp implementations, and has a very practical basis
2020-03-28T03:14:00Z aeth: GENSYM is... a bit more complicated. Basically, you want to do (let ((g (gensym))) `(defun foo (,g) ... ,@body)) if you don't want the code in body (which is the user's code) to be able to see the variable g
2020-03-28T03:16:52Z aeth: srandon111: well, Scheme prefers lambda and CL prefers (unhygienic) macros. You can do one style in the other language (at least if the Scheme provides a defmacro or define-macro)
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2020-03-28T03:18:02Z aeth: Even Scheme has LET. Just like Scheme prefers non-generic code (compared to CL, which is often generic), but even Scheme's + is generic because converting between number types would be annoying.
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2020-03-28T06:20:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-28T07:37:06Z adam4567: a recent sbcl save-lisp-and-die    53 megs! Is it normally so huge?
2020-03-28T07:37:41Z no-defun-allowed: With compression or no compression?
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2020-03-28T07:38:15Z adam4567: No compression, not sure  * (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "cmimage.mem" :executable t)
2020-03-28T07:38:24Z adam4567: but no real trimmings either
2020-03-28T07:38:26Z no-defun-allowed: The core file I have to make SLIME start faster is 46MB, but I can't remember if it's compressed.
2020-03-28T07:38:46Z adam4567: 46 is in a similar ball-park
2020-03-28T07:39:05Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, it's uncompressed (you pass :compression <compression quality; 1 through 9> to compress)
2020-03-28T07:39:15Z beach: adam4567: That order of magnitude is to be expected.  It contains things like the compiler.
2020-03-28T07:39:43Z adam4567: OK. Understood. Will see how runs, anyway.
2020-03-28T07:40:07Z no-defun-allowed: But yes, Common Lisp images usually contain the debugger, compiler, and everything that was present before you S-L-A-Died.
2020-03-28T07:40:43Z no-defun-allowed: I get 40MB and 11MB uncompressed and compressed (using :compression 9) images, respectively.
2020-03-28T07:42:58Z adam4567: Hmm. OK. We'll see how it goes. (It sure took several seconds to save).
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2020-03-28T07:44:39Z adam4567: Like, to use it, sbcl must load first anyway, then load the image.
2020-03-28T07:45:08Z adam4567: whereas it'd be faster to load sbcl and evaluate a form
2020-03-28T07:45:27Z no-defun-allowed: Er, the image is basically a copy of everything in memory, SBCL doesn't need to load anything else.
2020-03-28T07:45:35Z adam4567: load sbcl, load a package, evaluate a form, I mean
2020-03-28T07:46:33Z beach: adam4567: What do you think "load sbcl" involves?
2020-03-28T07:47:36Z no-defun-allowed: I sure hope not; the SLIME manual told me dumping an image would make it load faster.
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2020-03-28T07:49:05Z adam4567: looking through sbcl manual now, trying to find how to Load the image .. do forgive me.  sbcl -M image.mem  I thought
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2020-03-28T07:49:43Z no-defun-allowed: sbcl --core core-file
2020-03-28T07:49:53Z no-defun-allowed: I think -M is for CLISP.
2020-03-28T07:52:27Z adam4567: right, last time I used it was clisp. Thanks
2020-03-28T07:53:30Z adam4567:  3.3.1  Runtime Options   OK
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2020-03-28T07:59:33Z adam4567: \leave
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2020-03-28T10:04:22Z Gnuxie[m]: Will ELS 2020 be on twitch?
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2020-03-28T10:09:48Z Shinmera: Possibly. There's no decision yet.
2020-03-28T10:11:28Z Gnuxie[m]: Oh wow, I didn't think it was being considered, that's exciting
2020-03-28T10:12:00Z Shinmera: If it is on Twitch it would be pre recorded talks and a reduced programme.
2020-03-28T10:13:00Z Gnuxie[m]: Okie :)
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2020-03-28T16:08:44Z srandon111: guys i wasa reading how to design programs... and i wanted to understand what it means to design data and functions in an orthogonal way so that they are independent
2020-03-28T16:09:01Z srandon111: can you make me an example of when these are not orthogonal and hence not independent?
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2020-03-28T16:14:57Z beach: srandon111: It depends on what you mean by "data".  Typically, an abstract data type has protocol functions associated with it, but there is no explicit definition of the data type in terms of its representation.
2020-03-28T16:15:41Z beach: srandon111: But if your representation shows in the protocol, then the dependency is there.  That is something you would want to avoid.
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2020-03-28T16:17:44Z beach: srandon111: For example, let's say you want to define the data type "editable sequence" and you decide to represent it as a binary tree.  If then you have a functions left-child and right-child in your protocol, then it is blatantly obvious that you are representing the editable sequence with a tree.
2020-03-28T16:18:30Z srandon111: okok
2020-03-28T16:18:40Z srandon111: beach what do you suggest to learn lisp?
2020-03-28T16:18:41Z beach: srandon111: If instead you have only functions for inserting, deleting, and querying the sequence at certain positions, your protocol is now independent of the repersentation.
2020-03-28T16:18:44Z srandon111: is there something interactive?
2020-03-28T16:18:46Z beach: representation even.
2020-03-28T16:19:04Z beach: All major Common Lisp systems are interactive.
2020-03-28T16:19:46Z beach: The very definition of the Common Lisp semantics is "interactive" in that the semantics are defined by a suite of interactions.
2020-03-28T16:19:55Z srandon111: i mean interactive excersis something like 4clojure
2020-03-28T16:20:46Z beach: I am afraid I don't know what is.  You may have to wait for someone else to answer.
2020-03-28T16:25:25Z phoe: hmm
2020-03-28T16:25:31Z phoe: Lisp Koans are somewhat interactive
2020-03-28T16:25:48Z phoe: but I am not aware of any interactive tutorial for the language
2020-03-28T16:26:07Z phoe: nothing with all the bells and knobs and whistles that you can run in your browser or anywhere.
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2020-03-28T16:28:02Z pjb: phoe: use more cliki!
2020-03-28T16:28:23Z pjb: https://cliki.net/Online%20tutorial
2020-03-28T16:28:47Z pjb: Note that "Online tutorial" contains both ONLINE and tutorial, and some online tutorials are really ONLINE!
2020-03-28T16:28:56Z pjb: such as LispTutor Jr is an online tutorial with interactive exercises to test your knowledge and understanding.
2020-03-28T16:29:16Z pjb: or ELM-ART is an interactive and adaptive Web-based Lisp tutorial
2020-03-28T16:29:34Z pjb: I don't understand why people don't use more cliki…
2020-03-28T16:29:44Z pjb: Somebody should add it back in the /topic!!!
2020-03-28T16:36:19Z phoe: pjb: ooooh
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2020-03-28T19:32:14Z Josh_2: Is there an error here in the hyperspec http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm see prog2?
2020-03-28T19:32:28Z beach: Yes, it is well known.
2020-03-28T19:32:45Z Josh_2: Alrighty :P
2020-03-28T19:35:13Z beach: You can find a complete list on cliki.net
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2020-03-28T19:35:28Z beach: ANSI Clarifications and Errata
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2020-03-28T20:10:15Z aeth: Heh. It looks like the move to the impressive-looking SBCL 2.x got Fedora to finally update its SBCL from the ancient SBCL 1.4.14, at least in the upcoming release. https://apps.fedoraproject.org/packages/sbcl/
2020-03-28T20:10:31Z aeth: I guess one side effect of major version number bumps is Linux/etc. distros might care more.
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2020-03-28T20:16:47Z Ober: 👍
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2020-03-28T21:11:08Z jackdaniel: 1.4.x is not that ancient
2020-03-28T21:11:18Z jackdaniel: but good for them
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2020-03-28T21:52:15Z phoe: aeth: is your Scheme-in-CL available for usage?
2020-03-28T21:53:26Z aeth: phoe: Continuations are tricky so it's been sort of a line-a-day sort of thing and even then I'm probably making some subtle errors that need to be addressed.
2020-03-28T21:54:03Z phoe: aeth: OK, thanks for the detail.
2020-03-28T21:54:57Z aeth: I've also noticed that my transformation is enough to deoptimize e.g. (defun scheme::+ (&rest numbers) (apply #'+ numbers)) where SBCL normally would optimize most of the overhead away. So I'm going to have to come up with a solution to efficiently transform all of the &rest stuff in Scheme (not just most arithmetic procedures)
2020-03-28T21:55:41Z aeth: I mean, worst case scenario I can write define-scheme-compiler-macro as a parallel to define-compiler-macro and essentially do it how you'd have to do it if you couldn't open code or inline +.
2020-03-28T21:55:57Z aeth: Or I could write an inlining system and hope the APPLY gets removed when inlining, which it should.
2020-03-28T21:56:38Z aeth: Or I could walk through the body and if it consists solely of an apply, I can do something fancy, etc.
2020-03-28T21:57:35Z aeth: phoe: at the moment, it's about 7000 cycles for arithmetic that would normally be 1000.
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2020-03-28T22:00:49Z phoe: aeth: impressive.
2020-03-28T22:01:34Z ldb: aeth: a typical solution is discriminate binary + and reduced + using some kind of rewriting
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2020-03-28T22:02:51Z ldb: aeth: like this macro https://pastebin.com/jSHyGER3
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2020-03-28T22:06:47Z ldb: it is easy to conclude this kinds of &rest is a binary operator extended to folding with a unit object
2020-03-28T22:08:03Z aeth: ldb: yes, but I don't need to go that far, I just need to turn (R7RS::+ ...) into (CL:+ ...) of course with any additional overhead around it (e.g. continuations) although I suppose it's not quite that simple because someone in user code could do something like (let ((+ -)) ...) because Schemes usually don't have something like e.g. SBCL's package lock on CL
2020-03-28T22:09:02Z aeth: I'll probably just catch CL's TYPE-ERROR around +, too, instead of slowing down arithmetic with my own checks.
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2020-03-28T22:10:34Z srandon111: guys do you think that nowadays all the shining features lisps have are also contained in other programming languages?
2020-03-28T22:10:41Z no-defun-allowed: No.
2020-03-28T22:10:42Z srandon111: like perl,python,ruby,and so on?
2020-03-28T22:10:47Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, for example?
2020-03-28T22:10:57Z srandon111: if it is so cool why nobody uses it?
2020-03-28T22:10:57Z ldb: srandon111: nope, they don't have anything like CLOS
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2020-03-28T22:11:46Z ldb: R.I.P. ruby by the way
2020-03-28T22:11:58Z phoe: srandon111: CL still has pretty unmatched runtime introspection, interactivity, and debuggability
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2020-03-28T22:12:10Z phoe: and these three combo with each other pretty damn well
2020-03-28T22:12:20Z no-defun-allowed: Macros are either not present in most languages, or they're a bit of a joke because they only perform textual substitution (C) or the syntax is far detached from the data they process, leaving one with a line noise pattern matcher to make macros with (Rust, et al)
2020-03-28T22:12:43Z aeth: srandon111: CL comes with INCF that's like += and ++ in one (if the number isn't provided, it's like ++, otherwise like +=) but lacks *= but you can just do (define-modify-macro multf (&optional (delta 1)) *) (let ((x 2)) (multf x 42)) => 84
2020-03-28T22:12:57Z aeth: The point of a Lisp is that you don't have to wait on a new version of the standard for new syntactic sugar.
2020-03-28T22:13:37Z ldb: aeth: It sounds like your scheme would only do very direct translation to CL
2020-03-28T22:14:33Z jcowan: ldb: No, it does CPS conversion as well to support PTR and call/cc.
2020-03-28T22:14:49Z aeth: ldb: No, Pseudoscheme did a very direct translation to CL, hence the "pseudo" in Pseudoscheme. It lacked key features like call/cc iirc. Also, modern Scheme has syntactically and semantically drifted more in r7rs than in the days of r4rs (where e.g. hygienic macros were just an optional appendix)
2020-03-28T22:15:13Z srandon111: ldb, why RIP ruby???
2020-03-28T22:15:24Z aeth: ldb: Airship Scheme is intending to be a conforming r7rs Scheme so it has to introduce overhead where there is a semantic mismatch, but ideally no overhead if there is not.
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2020-03-28T22:15:48Z aeth: That is, (* x y (+ z u v w)) should ideally just be (* x y (+ z u v w)) if possible.
2020-03-28T22:15:51Z jcowan: phoe: In my view, that II&D is a Good Thing, but it embiggens implementations that don't actually require it
2020-03-28T22:16:04Z ldb: aeth: yes, (* x y (+ z u v w))
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2020-03-28T22:16:30Z jcowan: which is why I wrote down a spec for CL-R, which lacks II&D at run time.
2020-03-28T22:16:40Z ldb: instead of (setq :G0103 x) (setq :G0103 (+ :G0103 y) what so ever
2020-03-28T22:17:45Z ldb: actually i think cl compiler could do better optimization to the ssa like form
2020-03-28T22:17:50Z aeth: ldb: well, yes, but I can't just say "OK, the input is (* x y (+ z u v w)) so the output is now (* x y (+ z u v w))" because of the continuation passing style and because, as I said, the user could just do (let ((+ -)) (* x y (+ z u v w)))
2020-03-28T22:19:19Z aeth: So I essentially have to deoptimize and then reoptimize it...
2020-03-28T22:19:31Z ldb: aeth: depends on if you'd like to produce readble CL code
2020-03-28T22:20:28Z ldb: FOAMlib is a good FP language to CL example if the readbility is not required
2020-03-28T22:21:43Z ldb FOAM from Aldor language and AXIOM CAS
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2020-03-28T22:24:13Z aeth: ldb: I mean, at the moment, I have a series of Common Lisp macros for this, so if you choose to put up with the reader mismatches (like t instead of #t and %scheme-boolean:f instead of #f), the result of reading a Scheme file will essentially just be readable CL code...
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2020-03-28T22:27:38Z aeth: And I can probably make an unholy mix of the Scheme and CL reader just for fun, i.e. supporting #t, #f, and some other Scheme things.
2020-03-28T22:29:15Z ldb: without %scheme-boolean:t?
2020-03-28T22:30:10Z aeth: I do have a %scheme-boolean:t in case someone thinks that they're being clever. It is, of course, just CL:T.
2020-03-28T22:31:17Z aeth: Scheme needs a separate F because #f and (list) are distinct, so one of them has to be something different, and I'm certainly not going to mess with the core list data structure.
2020-03-28T22:31:32Z aeth: Yet another detail that Pseudoscheme didn't have to worry about iirc
2020-03-28T22:32:13Z aeth: On the plus side, in CL, CL:NIL is usually just an ordinary symbol, so comparing to SOME-PACKAGE:F should be the same performance as comparing to CL:NIL
2020-03-28T22:32:38Z ldb: r
2020-03-28T22:33:20Z ldb: It reminds me the implementation of T Lisp used in Yale Haskell
2020-03-28T22:33:41Z aeth: The main disadvantage is any foreign call into CL needs to be distinguished between a procedure (NIL is expected to be the empty list) and a predicate (NIL is expected to be #f)
2020-03-28T22:34:33Z phoe: aeth: the other way I can think of is that CL calls always return one or the other if native CL code returns NIL
2020-03-28T22:34:49Z aeth: I might need to write something special specifically for GETHASH, since the second value is a predicate (NIL is expected to be #f) but the primary value probably shouldn't be treated that way.
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2020-03-28T22:35:14Z ldb: Yale Haskell expects some kind of corece between Haskell's list and CL's list
2020-03-28T22:35:44Z phoe: that would be much less seamless though, but I don't know how to make it really seamless
2020-03-28T22:35:49Z aeth: ldb: Haskell is a lazy language so it's list is a typed, lazy list. I'd implement it with a struct or maybe a lambda.
2020-03-28T22:36:09Z aeth: Scheme's list is literally just CL's list
2020-03-28T22:36:17Z ear-the-art: linked list
2020-03-28T22:36:33Z aeth: s/it's/its/
2020-03-28T22:37:11Z ldb: aeth: but Yale Haskell use literaly CL's list for fully evaled list.
2020-03-28T22:37:14Z aeth: phoe: I mean, worst case scenario, Schemers get some extra NILs in complicated data structures.
2020-03-28T22:37:53Z ldb: The internal representation doesn't really matter
2020-03-28T22:37:56Z aeth: what the heck is this? https://github.com/haskell-lisp/yale-haskell
2020-03-28T22:38:23Z phoe: or they wrap CL function calls in something that manually (if (false? cl-retval) '() cl-retval)
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2020-03-28T22:38:37Z aeth: ah, 27 years ago...
2020-03-28T22:38:38Z ldb: aeth: Yale Haskell first implements a lisp dialect called T
2020-03-28T22:38:55Z ldb: then build the Haskell compiler on T
2020-03-28T22:39:08Z phoe: Yale Haskell - written between 1991 and 1993; was built from sources using CMU Common Lisp, Lucid Common Lisp, Allegro Common Lisp, Harlequin LispWorks, Kyoto Common Lisp. The last did suffer from performance problems, though. Compiled binaries were available for Sparc systems running SunOS 4.1.2 and Sparc 10's (sun4m) running 4.1.3. In the last release, the full functionality of X windows was made available
2020-03-28T22:39:08Z aeth: it is very weird and not at all the way I would do it, but it's understandable with the whole "27 years ago" thing
2020-03-28T22:39:09Z ldb: so it can run on both CL & Scheme
2020-03-28T22:39:14Z phoe: at the Haskell level.
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2020-03-28T22:40:14Z ldb: And it do has continuation implemented (for IO before IO Monad was invented)
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2020-03-28T22:43:11Z aeth: Yeah, the whole "I would implement it with a struct" is assuming SBCL as the main runtime that people would probably prefer, which didn't even exist at the time. As opposed to trying to run it on every possible Lisp/Scheme.
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2020-03-28T22:44:37Z ldb: Someone has done a CLOS MOP based scheme though
2020-03-28T22:45:14Z aeth: Implementing Haskell via the CLOS MOP is probably not the way to get a fast Haskell implementation.
2020-03-28T22:46:10Z ldb: if one doesn't insist put the runtime on CL, it could still be fast
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2020-03-28T22:46:58Z ldb: that CLOS MOP based scheme produce RISC asm as I can recall
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2020-03-29T04:25:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-29T07:17:05Z PuercoPope: Is there any reason why compute-effective-slot-definition-class wouldn't receive the custom initargs provided. They are present in compute-direct-slot-definition afaict
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2020-03-29T07:29:11Z beach: What is compute-effective-slot-definition-class?
2020-03-29T07:29:42Z beach: And what is compute-direct-slot-definition?
2020-03-29T07:30:07Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe the former is effective-slot-definition-class.
2020-03-29T07:30:33Z no-defun-allowed: And the latter direct-slot-definition-class.
2020-03-29T07:31:41Z beach: I am unable to make such corrections.  I prefer to have the correct names in the question.
2020-03-29T07:32:10Z no-defun-allowed: However, the former should be given the initargs of the slot. "The initargs argument is the set of initialization arguments and values that will be passed to make-instance when the effective slot definition metaobject is created."
2020-03-29T07:33:45Z beach: Perhaps the names are correct, but specific to a particular Common Lisp implementation.
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2020-03-29T07:35:18Z PuercoPope: beach: You are right, I meant to say effective-slot-definition-class
2020-03-29T07:37:01Z beach: PuercoPope: So can you rephrase the question, and could you state whether you are referring to observed behavior in some Common Lisp implementation, or to some perceived problem in the AMOP?
2020-03-29T07:37:17Z beach: PuercoPope: And also correct the name of the second function.
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2020-03-29T07:45:05Z PuercoPope: I'll share the code although it is a little bit long. I am talking about observed behaviour using SBCL and sb-mop. The problem is with initializing xcb-list-slot with the correct class https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/d13d5d663e28cd66ccb7701e50268133
2020-03-29T07:46:07Z no-defun-allowed: What is the WHEN in line 114 supposed to do?
2020-03-29T07:46:41Z PuercoPope: Just some debugging code
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2020-03-29T07:47:20Z PuercoPope: I use sly stickers to inspect the values of the slot giving me problems
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2020-03-29T07:53:07Z beach: So when you trace effective-slot-definition-class, no initargs are passed?
2020-03-29T07:53:12Z beach: Is that what you are saying?
2020-03-29T07:53:44Z PuercoPope: No, I'm saying the only ones passed as the standard ones
2020-03-29T07:54:18Z beach: Did you create a method on compute-effective-slot-definition specialized to your new metaclass?
2020-03-29T07:55:20Z beach: I guess so.
2020-03-29T07:55:42Z PuercoPope: Yes, it is down below
2020-03-29T07:55:46Z beach: But in that function, you just call call-next-method
2020-03-29T07:56:08Z beach: So the default method (specialized to standard-class) will be invoked, no?
2020-03-29T07:56:23Z PuercoPope: I would expect so, yes
2020-03-29T07:56:52Z beach: I would think the default method is the one that calls effective-slot-definition-class using the initargs for standard-class then.
2020-03-29T07:56:53Z beach: No?
2020-03-29T07:57:33Z PuercoPope: No, I would expect it to call it with all the initargs. And it does so in the other cases. For example in for the padding slot
2020-03-29T07:59:13Z beach: How would the default method on compute-effective-slot-definition know what initargs your slot definition class takes?
2020-03-29T08:00:29Z PuercoPope: Why would it need to 'know' what are the initargs? Wouldn't it just pass all the options passed to the slot?
2020-03-29T08:00:57Z PuercoPope: from what I have seen, compute-effective-slot-definition is used to set the values using the direct slots, but the slot itself is always initialized using the default method, ie. (call-next-method). Although in most cases code tends to ignore initargs and just return their custom slot because they only have one
2020-03-29T08:01:44Z beach: So direct-slot-definition-class is passed the initargs in the slot specification.
2020-03-29T08:01:53Z beach: That is not the case for effective-slot-definition-class.
2020-03-29T08:03:10Z beach: The effective slot definition is not initialized with the same initargs as the direct slot definition.  It takes initargs such as :location where the slot is stored in the instance, etc.
2020-03-29T08:04:46Z beach: So I think you need to override the method on compute-effective-slot-definition.
2020-03-29T08:05:02Z PuercoPope: And because allocation is a 'default' one it works. Makes sense. Too bad compute-effective-slot-definition-initargs doesn't seem to be exported by sb-mop
2020-03-29T08:06:07Z beach: I don't think it's part of the MOP definitions.
2020-03-29T08:06:37Z no-defun-allowed: That symbol doesn't even exist in the SB-MOP package.
2020-03-29T08:06:44Z PuercoPope: It isn't afaik.
2020-03-29T08:06:51Z PuercoPope: no-defun-allowed: it is in sb-pcl
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2020-03-29T08:08:00Z PuercoPope: I can use the direct-slots to chose the correct class for the effective slot instead. But I'm unsure of how to 'instanciate' the slot intself, do I just class (make-instance 'xcb-list-effective-slot-definition?)
2020-03-29T08:09:01Z PuercoPope: It is times like this that I wish the MOP would have been more fleshed out. compute-effective-slot-definition-initargs certainly seems like something that should be exposed
2020-03-29T08:21:48Z beach: You would do (apply #'make-instance '<your-slot-definition-class> initargs)
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2020-03-29T08:38:36Z beach: PuercoPope: I am convinced that the MOP is sufficiently fleshed out for your needs.
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2020-03-29T10:18:10Z phoe: Does CFFI have any kind of memcpy() function for copying raw bytes around?
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2020-03-29T10:22:27Z _death: you can defcfun memcpy
2020-03-29T10:24:20Z _death: I also wondered about that omission at times.. unfortunately with memcpy there's the size_t issue again.. in my code I usually went with the naive mem-aref loop
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2020-03-29T10:27:21Z phoe: luis: maybe you can provide some background
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2020-03-29T11:02:56Z luis: We don't defcfun memcpy to not depend on libc. IIRC, Lispworks didn't
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2020-03-29T11:05:39Z luis: But yeah, we should add memory fill and copy operations, I agree
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2020-03-29T11:41:13Z Josh_2: Are there are grammar parser generators for reading from streams?
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2020-03-29T11:43:05Z t3hyoshi: Like cl-lex?
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2020-03-29T11:58:15Z Josh_2: maybe
2020-03-29T11:59:07Z Josh_2: basically I have a stream I want to read from and parse with a grammar parser
2020-03-29T11:59:27Z Josh_2: but I don't want to read it all in then parse it with a parser after
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2020-03-29T15:37:24Z srandon111: guys ii am having an hard time understanding this twoer of hanoi thing from SICP... https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLZHQObOWTQDMRtm8h9bG9P06WINNoBnCR&v=2SUvWfNJSsM can somebody help me? where is the rule about you can move only a single disk at a time in? and how does the system know that he cannot put laarger disks above smaller disks?
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2020-03-29T15:43:41Z Bike: what do you mean "where is the rule"? that's just a rule of the game.
2020-03-29T15:43:51Z Bike: i don't see code in this video, though i'm only glancing at it
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2020-03-29T16:55:07Z pjb: srandon111: both rules are implicit.
2020-03-29T16:55:29Z pjb: srandon111: the rune that you can move only a single disk at a time is implemented by the fact that the computer only executes one instruction at a time!
2020-03-29T16:55:33Z pjb: s/rune/rule/
2020-03-29T16:56:05Z pjb: srandon111: the systems knows that it cannot put larger disks above smaller disks from the algorithm. This property can be proven mathematically from the algorithm.
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2020-03-29T16:57:55Z pjb: srandon111: to implement those rules explicitely in a system, you would have to make it possible to break them. For example, by implementing operations such as take tore from pile 1 in left hand, take tore from pile 2 in right hand, etc… and then you can write the rule, and ensure that such a sequence doesn't occur.
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2020-03-29T19:46:06Z joel135: how to understand this? ``(foo ,,(+ 1 1)) = (LIST 'FOO 2)
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2020-03-29T20:06:40Z jackdaniel: minion: tell joel135 about pcl
2020-03-29T20:06:40Z minion: joel135: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-03-29T20:06:53Z jackdaniel: there is also a channel #clschool for basic questions
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2020-03-29T20:07:45Z jackdaniel: hm
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2020-03-29T20:08:31Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: smells like homework
2020-03-29T20:10:24Z jackdaniel: I can imagine a mean teacher advising his students: if you have problems with understanding the material please join #lisp
2020-03-29T20:10:32Z jackdaniel: god forbid you from writing IRC netiquette
2020-03-29T20:10:37Z jackdaniel: s/writing/reading/
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2020-03-29T20:11:04Z jackdaniel: s/IRC/the IRC/
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2020-03-29T21:17:06Z phoe: I find myself thinking in Erlang while writing Lisp
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2020-03-29T21:26:45Z asarch: (uiop:run-program '("nc" "towel.blinkenlights.nl" "23") :output :interative)
2020-03-29T21:27:53Z phoe: ...
2020-03-29T21:28:04Z phoe sits back, watches
2020-03-29T21:31:11Z _death: hmmmm, as recently mentioned in the slime-devel mailing list, seems `C-c C-d h` and friends don't work in the repl.. `C-c C-d ?` shows no bindings for slime-editing-mode, but pushing the slime-editing-mode button in that buffer does show C-c C-d ... keybindings.. not sure what changed..
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2020-03-29T21:49:50Z _death: restarting emacs fixed it, so likely it's some bug in a package or emacs itself
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2020-03-30T00:07:27Z no-defun-allowed: Skimming over CLSQL's source code, I found a note "RACE COND: 2 threads disconnecting could stomp on *connected-databases*" in DISCONNECT. Has anyone been bitten by this before?
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2020-03-30T00:53:54Z PuercoPope: no-defun-allowed: The acceleration dot net guys have a patch for that iirc
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2020-03-30T03:01:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-30T10:08:05Z libertyprime: what do i do with an .asd file?
2020-03-30T10:25:09Z aeth: It's a build file, so it's an arcane recipe you copy from the last time you used it, or if you haven't made one yet, you copy someone else's. No one knows how the first build file for any build system was written.
2020-03-30T10:26:15Z aeth: To load a local one, it needs to be recognized in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/system-index.txt, usually by having the parent directy in or symbolically linked in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2020-03-30T10:26:31Z aeth: s/directy/directly/
2020-03-30T10:27:42Z aeth: or, actually directory. oops.
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2020-03-30T10:58:54Z libertyprime: aeth: cool. i have loaded a package, but am unsure now how to get the function definitions into a lisp repl
2020-03-30T10:58:57Z libertyprime: sorry im a noob
2020-03-30T10:59:02Z libertyprime: https://asciinema.org/a/C5FPpwfRHhkZxopAUYTFwwiJC
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2020-03-30T11:10:53Z beach: libertyprime: What is it that you are trying to do?
2020-03-30T11:11:41Z beach: If you have loaded your system, then the functions are defined in the system that is running the REPL.
2020-03-30T11:11:43Z splittist: libertyprime: as you will see from the top of the cl-expect file, the symbols in that file are defined in the CL-EXPECT package. You can access them by prepending the package-name to the symbol you want, like CL-EXPECT:CREATE-THING. (Assuming CREATE-THING is exported from that package.)
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2020-03-30T11:13:03Z jmercouris: anyone able to load latest serapeum on ql?
2020-03-30T11:14:17Z splittist: libertyprime: you can switch the repl to read in the CL-EXPECT by using (in-package #:cl-expect)
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2020-03-30T11:24:27Z libertyprime: sweet. thanks guys. got it
2020-03-30T11:27:57Z libertyprime: is sly-mode for emacs where it's at?
2020-03-30T11:28:08Z jmercouris: no
2020-03-30T11:28:14Z jmercouris: you can use slime or sly, both are about the same
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2020-03-30T11:31:53Z libertyprime: cool
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2020-03-30T15:06:11Z jmercouris: how can I achieve: (defparameter fish #'print)
2020-03-30T15:06:14Z jmercouris: (fish "lol")
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2020-03-30T15:06:20Z jmercouris: where i would expect fish to function as print
2020-03-30T15:06:42Z beach: (setf (fdefinition 'fish) #'print)
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2020-03-30T15:06:54Z jmercouris: beach: will that also work for macros?
2020-03-30T15:07:23Z beach: (setf (macro-function 'fish) (macro-function 'whatever))
2020-03-30T15:07:29Z jmercouris: OK, thank you
2020-03-30T15:07:39Z beach: Sure.
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2020-03-30T15:21:13Z d4ryus: jmercouris: note that if you recompile print, fish wont change. (guess thats obvious?)
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2020-03-30T15:22:03Z jmercouris: not obvious, noted
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2020-03-30T15:24:15Z Bike: recompiling creates a new function object and assigns the name to it, while fish will still have the old function object.
2020-03-30T15:24:22Z jmercouris: like a closure
2020-03-30T15:24:31Z d4ryus: for that to work would need something like (setf (fdefinition 'fish) (lambda (&rest args) (apply print args)), hence you set fish to a function that looks up the funtion of symbol print and calls it
2020-03-30T15:25:43Z jmercouris: right
2020-03-30T15:26:05Z jmercouris: I've never seen this form of a macro
2020-03-30T15:26:09Z jmercouris: (defmacro serapeum.exporting:defclass (name supers &body (slots . options))
2020-03-30T15:26:18Z jmercouris: I'm trying to wrap it in my own macro to give it a shorter signature
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2020-03-30T15:26:27Z pjb: d4ryus: this depends on the function you redirect to!
2020-03-30T15:26:29Z jmercouris: so I tried this: http://dpaste.com/2N1MX39
2020-03-30T15:26:32Z jmercouris: but it doesn't like that
2020-03-30T15:26:33Z Bike: (slots . options) is the same as (slots &rest options)
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2020-03-30T15:26:57Z pjb: d4ryus: the rule is that functions in the CL package cannot change, and that the compiler can "inline" them.
2020-03-30T15:26:57Z jmercouris: I still don't understand is options the default value of slots?
2020-03-30T15:27:06Z d4ryus: As Bike said, its obvious if you look at code like (let* ((x 1) (y x)) (setf x 3) y) returns 1 and you wouldn't expect it to return 3, obviously.
2020-03-30T15:27:10Z Bike: no, it's a destructuring lambda list
2020-03-30T15:27:16Z sjl_: No, it's destructuring the body into slots and the tail
2020-03-30T15:27:20Z pjb: d4ryus: so for functions in the CL package, you don't need to go thru a stub function.
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2020-03-30T15:27:36Z jmercouris: i've never seen this syntax in a function, is it only available for macros?
2020-03-30T15:27:40Z sjl_: yes
2020-03-30T15:27:46Z jmercouris: i see, that's why i'm not yet familiar with it
2020-03-30T15:27:47Z jmercouris: ok
2020-03-30T15:27:53Z tcr: jmercouris, it uses &body there to make Slime (and other development environments) as an indentation hint
2020-03-30T15:28:05Z Bike: clhs 3.4.4
2020-03-30T15:28:06Z specbot: Macro Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm
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2020-03-30T15:28:11Z d4ryus: pjb: Ah, interesting! yup, scratch that example i guess :)
2020-03-30T15:28:12Z pjb: d4ryus: on the other hand, in the case of all the other functions, they could indeed be redefined, and then you want to choose whether you want to follow the redefinition or not.  Often, you don't want to!  So using the setf fdefinition fdefinition is the right thing to do.
2020-03-30T15:28:17Z Bike: "Destructuring allows a macro lambda list to express the structure of a macro call syntax. If no lambda list keywords appear, then the macro lambda list is a tree containing parameter names at the leaves"
2020-03-30T15:28:32Z pjb: d4ryus: this is the same thing with using function objects vs. using function name (the symbol).
2020-03-30T15:29:06Z jmercouris: OK, so what is a 'destructuring lambda list'?
2020-03-30T15:29:24Z pjb: d4ryus: for example, in general when definining reader macros, I use the function name, so I can easily redefine the reader macro (for some characters, if you botch your reader function it can be difficult to redefine (read) it).
2020-03-30T15:29:32Z Bike: that is explaind in the page i linked
2020-03-30T15:29:37Z Bike: and in the 3.4.4.1 section there
2020-03-30T15:29:43Z jmercouris: OK
2020-03-30T15:29:44Z jmercouris: I'll read
2020-03-30T15:31:06Z jmercouris: I've read it, and I still don't understand
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2020-03-30T15:31:27Z jmercouris: what is "the structure of macro call syntax" what does that mean?
2020-03-30T15:32:54Z d4ryus: jmercouris: Baggers has a video on destructuring-bind ('Little bits of lisp - destructuring bind' on youtube)
2020-03-30T15:34:00Z Bike: it means the lambda list can be structured like a macro call is. like, consider making your own macro that just duplicates let. you'd use it like (mlet (binding1 binding2...) body...). so you could (defmacro mlet ((&rest bindings) &body body) ...)
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2020-03-30T15:40:10Z jmercouris: OK so I just watched the video
2020-03-30T15:40:14Z jmercouris: let me make sure I understand
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2020-03-30T15:40:35Z jmercouris: this: (defmacro serapeum.exporting:defclass (name supers &body (slots . options))
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2020-03-30T15:40:53Z jmercouris: means it expects a list of at least 2 elements, with a varied amount of elements after of the form of a dotted pair
2020-03-30T15:40:59Z jmercouris: or did I get that wrong?
2020-03-30T15:41:17Z jmercouris: otherwise what does (slots . options) mean?
2020-03-30T15:41:28Z Bike: you got that wrong.
2020-03-30T15:41:31Z jmercouris: damn
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2020-03-30T15:41:39Z Bike: (slots . options) is exactly equivalent to (slots &rest options), like i said earlier.
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2020-03-30T15:41:50Z jmercouris: but why they dot?
2020-03-30T15:41:59Z Bike: it's just an alternate syntax.
2020-03-30T15:42:06Z Bike: "A destructuring lambda list (whether at top level or embedded) can be dotted, ending in a parameter name. This situation is treated exactly as if the parameter name that ends the list had appeared preceded by &rest. " in the page i linked.
2020-03-30T15:42:18Z jmercouris: ah, I missed that
2020-03-30T15:42:26Z jmercouris: I don't like that there are multiple syntaxes for this
2020-03-30T15:42:29Z jmercouris: OK anyways
2020-03-30T15:42:33Z Bike: it's to mimic the structure of the list.
2020-03-30T15:42:48Z Bike: SLOTS is bound to the car of the body, and OPTIONS to the cdr.
2020-03-30T15:44:07Z jmercouris: I see
2020-03-30T15:44:07Z pjb: jmercouris: (foo . bar) is a cons cell.  A list such as (a b c d) is also a cons cell!!! It's (a . (b c d)).  So you can match the two cons cells, and identify foo = a, and bar = (b c d).   Therefore you can see that (foo . bar) is equivalent to (foo &rest bar).
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2020-03-30T15:45:25Z sjl_: jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/191bbea3c7205baaab48c0765c2ce1e7
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2020-03-30T15:47:13Z jmercouris: OK I see
2020-03-30T15:47:16Z jmercouris: thanks sjl
2020-03-30T15:47:20Z jmercouris: I think I am starting to get this
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2020-03-30T15:52:05Z sjl_: One thing that's mildly annoying that I run into: I often want to have a name-and-options parameter for a macro that's used like this: https://hg.stevelosh.com/chancery/file/tip/src/chancery.lisp#l224
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2020-03-30T15:53:06Z sjl_: I could embed the destructuring (name &key foo bar baz) into the lambda list, but then callers wouldn't be able to give a bare symbol to mean a name with no options
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2020-03-30T15:54:05Z sjl_: So either I embed the (name &key ...) into the lambda list, which is less code and more obvious for users when your editor shows you the lambda list as you type
2020-03-30T15:54:19Z Bike: oh yeah, that's a little annoying.
2020-03-30T15:54:41Z sjl_: Or I do an opaque name-and-options in the lambda list, then (destructuring-bind (name ...) (alexandria:ensure-list name-and-options ...)) in the body
2020-03-30T15:55:15Z sjl_: Which lets users type foo instead of (foo), but is less helpful in the editor.
2020-03-30T15:55:21Z sjl_: I wish there were a way to have my cake and also eat it.
2020-03-30T15:56:41Z jmercouris: what I still can't figure out is how to wrap the macro :-\
2020-03-30T15:56:49Z jmercouris: even with all of this information, I still can't get it
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2020-03-30T15:57:14Z Bike: `(serapeum.exporting:defclass ,name ,supers ,slots ,@options)
2020-03-30T15:57:19Z jmercouris: I tried that though
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2020-03-30T15:57:27Z jmercouris: maybe there is something else wrong in my codebase
2020-03-30T15:57:32Z Bike: did you? that's not what you pasted
2020-03-30T15:57:37Z jmercouris: I know that's not what I pasted
2020-03-30T15:57:42Z jmercouris: but I haven't pasted every single derivative I tried
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2020-03-30T15:58:08Z jmercouris: that is literally the last one I tried
2020-03-30T15:58:15Z jmercouris: there must be an error elsewhere then
2020-03-30T15:58:18Z Bike: ok.
2020-03-30T15:58:27Z jackdaniel: sjl_: I've seen that some some lisps (by some I mean allegro and genera, possibly more) recognized a declaration for arglist
2020-03-30T15:58:52Z jackdaniel: and you could have declared different arglist than a verbatim lambda list
2020-03-30T15:58:56Z sjl_: Interesting
2020-03-30T15:58:59Z Bike: if i do (defmacro foo ...) and (defmacro bar ...) with this lambda list it works
2020-03-30T15:59:02Z Bike: like bar can wrap foo fine
2020-03-30T15:59:12Z jmercouris: the error must be elsewhere
2020-03-30T15:59:18Z jmercouris: maybe I have a cache error
2020-03-30T15:59:20Z jmercouris: I'll clear my cache
2020-03-30T16:00:22Z jmercouris: Is there a way to query lisp for all methods that specialize on a class?
2020-03-30T16:00:46Z jmercouris: I'm sure there is a way by looking through all symbols, but I meant some idiomatic way
2020-03-30T16:00:57Z Bike: (mop:specializer-direct-methods class)
2020-03-30T16:01:23Z Bike: keep in mind this is direct specializations, so it won't get any methods specialized on a subclass
2020-03-30T16:01:28Z jmercouris: right
2020-03-30T16:01:33Z jmercouris: that's fine, that will suffice
2020-03-30T16:01:38Z jmercouris: thank you again
2020-03-30T16:01:41Z Bike: np
2020-03-30T16:01:55Z jmercouris: OK, this is quite silly
2020-03-30T16:02:07Z jmercouris: my macro wasn't working because my file was not yet loaded
2020-03-30T16:02:15Z Bike: yeah that would do it
2020-03-30T16:02:16Z jmercouris: by the time it was already to be used
2020-03-30T16:03:40Z _death: sjl: there is a start of a mechanism for "enriched arglists" in slime (see contrib/swank-arglists)
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2020-03-30T18:21:45Z puchacz: hi, I am trying to use cl-conspack with (tracking-refs (*refs*) (decode (encode x)))
2020-03-30T18:21:50Z puchacz: but I am getting an error
2020-03-30T18:22:04Z puchacz: Duplicate object ID: 2 Existing value: ROW-CREATION New value: ROW-CREATION
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2020-03-30T18:22:29Z puchacz: I understand it is trying to recreate a symbol
2020-03-30T18:22:35Z puchacz: surely this symbol exists
2020-03-30T18:23:40Z puchacz: it can decode when I skip tracking refs, but of course I am left with forward reference inside an object
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2020-03-30T20:34:13Z equwal: LdBeth: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1008
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2020-03-30T21:28:51Z puchacz: FYI, solved my conspack problem
2020-03-30T21:29:10Z puchacz: I had many :)
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2020-03-30T21:36:19Z phoe: puchacz: what's the solution?
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2020-03-30T21:39:20Z puchacz: okay, so I had decode and encode that was not specialised, so it was the first problem. I realised I should at least specialise on standard-object
2020-03-30T21:39:59Z puchacz: next, there are forward references, but they are only resolved if they are kept in alist or a hashmap, or an array, but not in the slot of the object
2020-03-30T21:40:08Z puchacz: I think it is a bug in conspack
2020-03-30T21:40:42Z puchacz: so my workaround was to store alists as decoding is progressing, and only copy values from alists to slots after conspack is done
2020-03-30T21:41:42Z puchacz: anyaway, I am off, getting late here :)
2020-03-30T21:42:54Z puchacz: so, thumbs up for conspack. much better than json or similar
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2020-03-31T04:51:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-03-31T05:25:21Z no-defun-allowed: LdBeth: Try parting and joining again?
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2020-03-31T05:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you get kicked if you need verification.
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2020-03-31T05:32:25Z LdBeth: Now it should works
2020-03-31T05:32:40Z pjb: It better be!
2020-03-31T05:33:17Z LdBeth: equwal: thank you btw
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2020-03-31T05:51:24Z jeosol: Good morning all
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2020-03-31T06:06:52Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2020-03-31T06:07:21Z jeosol: Hi beach. Been a while. Hope you are doing well with all this pandemic stuff going on.
2020-03-31T06:08:10Z beach: So far so good.  Thanks.  You too I hope.
2020-03-31T06:08:37Z jeosol: side topic: As I am learning french, I was able to follow some French debat regarding chloroquinine use. Interesting how the french debate on TV.
2020-03-31T06:08:41Z jeosol: Yeah I am ok for now.
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2020-03-31T06:09:35Z jeosol: I see that that the Els conf was cancelled at least for now.
2020-03-31T06:11:22Z jeosol: Regarding CL, I wanted to discuss merits of different ways of organizing defmethods. I recently updated to SBCL 2.0.3 and noticed some errors that were not caught with previous version. It was mainly package errors where I am implement a defmethod for class a file but prefaced with the package name where the defgeneric is defined.
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2020-03-31T06:32:15Z beach: Why would that be a package error?
2020-03-31T06:39:05Z jeosol: I think there was an issue loading my systems. Before the recent changes, I was referencing some functions via the package names in some other files (I know bad design) and it complained about that. In another case (my question) above, my defmethods are scattered across several files
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2020-03-31T06:41:55Z jeosol: And a system that needed a specific defmethod (specialized on eql) could not be found
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2020-03-31T06:42:43Z beach: There is nothing bad about having different methods defined in different files and different packages.
2020-03-31T06:42:55Z jeosol: It was my fault not SBCL's. except that it wasn't caught in the previous version. Perhaps I need another tutorial
2020-03-31T06:43:22Z jeosol: beach: I agree, that's the functionality I used through my project. It helps me keeps better separated.
2020-03-31T06:45:29Z jeosol: As things get larger and larger, I think I am not doing a good job with my system loading. It's probably getting sloppier.
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2020-03-31T06:46:18Z jeosol: I had a discussion with Fare about extracting ASDF dependency graph with POIU but he said it will some amount work to do that.
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2020-03-31T07:34:34Z hajovonta: hello
2020-03-31T07:34:38Z phoe: heyy
2020-03-31T07:35:25Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe and hajovonta.
2020-03-31T07:35:30Z hajovonta: From a macro, I need to generate something like this: (mypackage::foo param1 param2)
2020-03-31T07:35:42Z hajovonta: Can I generate fully qualified function names somehow?
2020-03-31T07:36:06Z no-defun-allowed: `(mypackage::foo ,i ,struggle ,to ,see ,the ,problem?)
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2020-03-31T07:37:36Z phoe: hajovonta: in the worst case, `(,(or (find-symbol "FOO" "MYPACKAGE") (error "Macro error - symbol not found")) param1 param2)
2020-03-31T07:37:41Z Krystof: or if the name of the symbol is a parameter, `(,(intern x "MYPACKAGE") ...)
2020-03-31T07:37:56Z phoe: or use intern if you want to create symbols
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2020-03-31T07:39:59Z hajovonta: the problem is when I'm (in-package) and run the macro from there, I lose the package qualifier
2020-03-31T07:40:14Z phoe: hajovonta: what do you mean, lose
2020-03-31T07:40:27Z phoe: it simply isn't printed because the symbol is accessible in the current package
2020-03-31T07:40:46Z phoe: the symbol is still the same - FOO from package MYPACKAGE
2020-03-31T07:41:14Z hajovonta: yes, but I need to use it from another thread where it's not present
2020-03-31T07:41:23Z phoe: where *what* is not present
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2020-03-31T07:41:29Z hajovonta: that symbol
2020-03-31T07:41:36Z phoe: impossible, symbols are global
2020-03-31T07:41:46Z hajovonta: ok, but it's on another machine
2020-03-31T07:41:51Z hajovonta: in another REPL
2020-03-31T07:41:58Z phoe: oooh, that's a different issue
2020-03-31T07:42:00Z hajovonta: but the package itself is loaded
2020-03-31T07:42:12Z hajovonta: so if I could generate it fully qualified, I could call it
2020-03-31T07:42:27Z hajovonta: :)
2020-03-31T07:42:29Z phoe: how do you pass symbols between REPLs?
2020-03-31T07:42:39Z phoe: swank-crew or something similar?
2020-03-31T07:42:51Z hajovonta: no, I print them
2020-03-31T07:43:04Z hajovonta: as a string
2020-03-31T07:43:27Z phoe: then you either need to print from a package that has an empty :USE or create your own printer
2020-03-31T07:43:52Z phoe: the former hack causes all symbols to be explicitly qualified, which should be enough for symbols
2020-03-31T07:44:29Z phoe: (defpackage #:my-print-package (:use)) (let ((*package* (find-package #:my-print-package))) (print-stuff-to-string))
2020-03-31T07:45:17Z hajovonta: aha, thankss for the idea
2020-03-31T07:45:39Z phoe: and I wholeheartedly suggest swank-crew or lfarm instead
2020-03-31T07:45:50Z phoe: they take care of that layer
2020-03-31T07:45:57Z hajovonta: or maybe, can I (in-package) out of the package for the macro definition?
2020-03-31T07:46:08Z phoe: it won't work
2020-03-31T07:46:15Z Krystof: you don't need to make a package with an empty use
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2020-03-31T07:46:16Z hajovonta: yes, but create restrictions on the connection protocol
2020-03-31T07:46:17Z phoe: your issue isn't about macroexpansion, your issue is about printing
2020-03-31T07:46:22Z Krystof: use the keyword package
2020-03-31T07:46:48Z hajovonta: yes, the macro is generated properly, and it works from the current REPL
2020-03-31T07:46:48Z phoe: ooooh right, :KEYWORD already has an empty :USE list
2020-03-31T07:46:55Z phoe: that's even more of a hack, nice
2020-03-31T07:46:59Z hajovonta: how do I do that?
2020-03-31T07:47:07Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) ...)
2020-03-31T07:48:13Z Krystof: phoe: not only does keyword have an empty use list, it is explicitly special-cased
2020-03-31T07:48:19Z Krystof: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/22_acca.htm
2020-03-31T07:48:30Z Krystof: it is not a hack; it is by design
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2020-03-31T07:49:24Z phoe: Krystof: is that the proper page? this one only mentions keywords in context of printing them with a preceding colon, so :FOO instead of KEYWORD:FOO
2020-03-31T07:49:40Z Krystof: well, no, :FOO instead of FOO
2020-03-31T07:49:53Z phoe: oh right, that thing
2020-03-31T07:49:56Z Krystof: if the keyword package is the current package, normally you would print a keyword without a package prefix
2020-03-31T07:49:59Z phoe: correct
2020-03-31T07:50:35Z Krystof: so without that special-case you can't use the keyword package to guarantee readable package prefixes on all symbols; with it, you can
2020-03-31T07:52:22Z Krystof: I learnt this from Erik Naggum, 20 years ago
2020-03-31T07:52:50Z Krystof: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3165125191606936@naggum.no.html
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2020-03-31T08:00:08Z hajovonta: no easy path for me
2020-03-31T08:00:29Z hajovonta: but at least I can always fix it with some string manipulation :D
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2020-03-31T09:19:35Z splittist: Any suggestions for lisp-related papers to read while the ACM library is free to access?
2020-03-31T09:21:33Z beach: That's a tough question.
2020-03-31T09:21:50Z beach: There are so many papers.
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2020-03-31T09:22:08Z splittist: storage is cheap (: time is not ):
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2020-03-31T09:23:37Z beach: Paul Wilson's allocator survey is one of my favorites.
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2020-03-31T09:24:19Z aeth: splittist: You might want to ask in #scheme (for Schmes) and ##lisp (for all the Lisps) because a lot of the papers wouldn't be specific to Common Lisp.
2020-03-31T09:24:38Z aeth: There might be a slightly different crowd with different recommendations
2020-03-31T09:25:10Z splittist: beach: lots of his stuff at ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/garbage
2020-03-31T09:25:21Z splittist: aeth: true
2020-03-31T09:25:56Z beach: splittist: Ah, yes, you don't need ACM for that.
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2020-03-31T09:27:26Z splittist: I see I can get "Fast Generic Dispatch for Common Lisp" for Free!
2020-03-31T09:28:13Z Shinmera: All of the ELS papers are available on the els website already
2020-03-31T09:28:59Z splittist: Shinmera: yes.
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2020-03-31T09:51:06Z White_Flame: I like that there's useful stuff in a directory named "garbage"
2020-03-31T09:54:18Z phoe: White_Flame: "/pub/garbage on cs.utexas.edu holds papers about garbage collection, persistence, and memory hierarchy implementation."
2020-03-31T09:54:21Z phoe: from the README
2020-03-31T09:54:31Z White_Flame: yes, obviously :)
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2020-03-31T09:54:37Z phoe: the name is amusing though, I agree :D
2020-03-31T10:02:05Z no-defun-allowed: One who downloads all the papers from that directory is a...
2020-03-31T10:02:11Z phoe: no
2020-03-31T10:02:13Z phoe: please no
2020-03-31T10:02:47Z no-defun-allowed deallocates herself
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2020-03-31T10:04:19Z White_Flame: is a copying garbage collector?
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2020-03-31T10:05:07Z White_Flame: if they do it with their kids, it's even generational
2020-03-31T10:06:25Z no-defun-allowed: If they interleave that with actually useful work (provided they don't study memory management for work), it might be incremental.
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2020-03-31T10:20:25Z splittist is sorry he wasn't here to pun in real time
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2020-03-31T11:21:51Z phoe: Is there a portability library that defines a common condition type for errors signaled by no-applicable-method?
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2020-03-31T11:22:46Z phoe: or should I write my own method for #'no-applicable-method and signal my own error if I want it?
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2020-03-31T11:22:51Z Shinmera: the latter.
2020-03-31T11:23:02Z Shinmera: the error you can signal there will be more meaningful, too.
2020-03-31T11:23:29Z Shinmera: provided of course you don't specialise on T.
2020-03-31T11:24:33Z phoe: I can't specialize on T without going against the standard
2020-03-31T11:24:43Z phoe: there's already a system method defined on T
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2020-03-31T12:47:25Z dokma: How do I alter (add-hook 'cuda-mode-hook 'linum-mode) to set linum-mode to relative ??
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2020-03-31T12:48:20Z beach: dokma: add-hook is not a Common Lisp function.
2020-03-31T12:48:27Z dokma: it isn't
2020-03-31T12:48:42Z beach: So where did you see it.
2020-03-31T12:48:43Z beach: ?
2020-03-31T12:48:48Z dokma: in spacemacs config
2020-03-31T12:48:57Z beach: Sorry, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-03-31T12:49:01Z dokma: but #spacemacs is dead
2020-03-31T12:49:06Z dokma: so I'm trying to get help here
2020-03-31T12:49:18Z beach: But it's off topic here.  Sorry about that.
2020-03-31T12:49:32Z dokma: the question is general
2020-03-31T12:49:38Z dokma: function names are irrelevant
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2020-03-31T12:49:55Z dokma: how would you do it in common lisp?
2020-03-31T12:50:41Z beach: Common Lisp doesn't have anything like a "cuda mode".
2020-03-31T12:51:39Z dokma: beach: is that really relevant? I'm just trying to set a value
2020-03-31T12:51:49Z dokma: all I need is the syntax
2020-03-31T12:55:36Z splittist: dokma: (serapeum:add-hook hook fun &key append) . You can see the implementation here: https://github.com/ruricolist/serapeum/blob/64f0c4a161bbbda7c275012ca1415b4293b9e169/hooks.lisp#L6 . Or it could be - and has been - implemented in CL many different ways.
2020-03-31T12:58:59Z scymtym: dokma: common lisp has the builtin macroexpand hook which works differently compared to emacs' concept of hooks. there are libraries for hooks in common lisp as pointed out by splittist. the emacs lisp code you are looking for might be (add-hook 'cuda-mode-hook (lambda () (display-line-numbers-mode 1) (setf display-line-numbers 'relative)))
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2020-03-31T13:33:24Z phoe: dokma: #emacs is not dead though
2020-03-31T13:33:43Z phoe: spacemacs is an emacs distribution, and your question is definitely an emacs one
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2020-03-31T14:08:40Z phoe: ...ironclad is not the most trivial library to grok
2020-03-31T14:08:49Z phoe reads up on authenticated encryption
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2020-03-31T14:27:15Z phoe: There was a slime command that evaluated an expression and inserted the eval result next to it. What was it?
2020-03-31T14:28:50Z random-nick: maybe slime-eval-print-last-expression
2020-03-31T14:28:54Z random-nick: or slime-eval-pprint-last-expression
2020-03-31T14:29:20Z phoe: random-nick: that one, thank you
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2020-03-31T14:45:51Z pjb: dokma: if you appeal to generalities, in general, I would RTFM.
2020-03-31T14:46:01Z pjb: dokma: what does the documentation of add-hook say?
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2020-03-31T14:46:33Z pjb: dokma: what does the documentation of linum-mode say?
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2020-03-31T15:29:20Z sabrac: why does ironclad:prng-random-data open /dev/urandom and never provide a way to close it? Or am I missing something?
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2020-03-31T15:35:00Z _death: why would you need to close it?
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2020-03-31T15:38:10Z _death: a common criticism of /dev/urandom is that it can become unavailable when there are no file descriptors available
2020-03-31T15:38:33Z sabrac: stress testing an update to postmodern triggered a "too many open files to /dev/urandom" error. And it became unavailable as you just said.
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2020-03-31T15:39:52Z _death: do you create new OS prngs all the time?
2020-03-31T15:41:05Z sabrac: Yes. If I do not, I trigger another error claiming a private thread violation. Still trying to figure that one out.
2020-03-31T15:41:24Z _death: indeed the code in that file looks a bit strange, since it creates one for each thread :/
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2020-03-31T16:00:28Z _death: (I believe it's safe for multiple threads to read from the same urandom fd.. see also https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12245054/linux-3-5-safe-to-read2-from-same-fd-open2-dev-urandom-from-multiple )
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2020-03-31T16:03:17Z _death: I guess the fix there is to have :allocation :class for the slot
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2020-03-31T16:15:02Z phoe: or provide a WITH-PRNG for testing purposers
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2020-03-31T16:15:10Z phoe: in order to close the fd
2020-03-31T16:16:22Z _death: closing the file descriptor means you may need to reopen urandom, leading to a greater chance of failure
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2020-03-31T16:29:00Z Shinmera: sabrac: I have run into that too.
2020-03-31T16:29:15Z Shinmera: I think in my web framework I have an explicit workaround where I bind each thread to a new rng
2020-03-31T16:29:38Z Shinmera: cause otherwise you get sporadic, really nasty errors in random places
2020-03-31T16:30:10Z Xach: random!
2020-03-31T16:30:49Z jackdaniel: random topics are forbidden on this channel :)
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2020-03-31T16:42:58Z _death: I guess it could fail because of read-sequence (and not posix read).. maybe specifying that the stream is not buffered would make sense on some implementations, or maybe straight posix calls is a better alternative.. choices
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2020-03-31T16:51:41Z _death: seems dl.acm.org removed my IP ban ;).. I'm gonna create a list of the stuff I wanna download and slowleech it
2020-03-31T16:52:58Z Xach: lispy stuff?
2020-03-31T16:53:29Z _death: oh, wrong channel :).. yes, lispy stuff from old CACM issues
2020-03-31T16:54:56Z _death: I got up to 1972 yesterday when they banned the IP for downloading around 100 pdfs
2020-03-31T16:56:07Z Xach: nikodemus got banned as well
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2020-03-31T16:57:07Z _death: people with univ access could get a hold of it easily, I guess..
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2020-03-31T17:07:21Z _death: I should use a Poisson process to determine the download times..
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2020-03-31T17:35:47Z jmercouris: so, according to this: https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qkeyevent.html, we get a keycode
2020-03-31T17:35:52Z jmercouris: in my case 65 = a
2020-03-31T17:35:55Z jmercouris: I know this to be ascii
2020-03-31T17:36:11Z jmercouris: however, can I use Lisp to somehow introspect what the keycode actually is as a character when printed on screen?
2020-03-31T17:36:22Z jmercouris: some library that exists?
2020-03-31T17:37:04Z jmercouris: char-code and the like are not guaranteed to work
2020-03-31T17:37:14Z jmercouris: I believe I would need to know what kind of keyboard the user has, as well as what operating system they are on
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2020-03-31T17:37:45Z _death: according to the documentation they have their own mapping
2020-03-31T17:38:04Z _death: https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qt.html#Key-enum
2020-03-31T17:38:30Z Bike: characters aren't the same as keyboard keys, anyway
2020-03-31T17:39:13Z _death: in ascii, 65 = #\A
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2020-03-31T17:42:28Z mercourisj: I know this is a Lisp channel, but why do other languages use such varied syntax for function calls and data passing
2020-03-31T17:42:34Z mercourisj: what is the purported advantage of this?
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2020-03-31T17:42:52Z mercourisj: I'm just thinking for example about the << operator in C++, and wondering why you would possibly need it
2020-03-31T17:43:34Z mercourisj: BTW, thanks for the feedback about chars, I decided to do it in C++, but my message did not go through about that
2020-03-31T17:43:44Z mercourisj: I will use whatever facilities they have to try to get it to work reliably...
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2020-03-31T17:46:00Z jmercouris: I'm just struggling to imagine a justification for this, I always accepted it when I first learned the languages, but now I am wondering why anyone would do that
2020-03-31T17:47:16Z _death: you can find the answer in a book called The Design & Evolution of C++
2020-03-31T17:47:31Z jmercouris: I'm sure I'll get some bullshit answer, anyone can justify any decision
2020-03-31T17:47:46Z jmercouris: I'm looking for some overarching reasoning behind the justification of different calling conventions in languages
2020-03-31T17:48:03Z jmercouris: why this strange syntax? do language authors believe it helps in some way?
2020-03-31T17:48:19Z jackdaniel: homoiconity is great and all, but it is not that elaborate syntax is without merit - good syntactic sugar gives your code a well justified mold
2020-03-31T17:49:29Z jackdaniel: "ordinary" function calling notation is directly inherited from standard math notation
2020-03-31T17:49:42Z jackdaniel: s/from/from the/
2020-03-31T17:49:53Z jmercouris: you could then take the question one step further
2020-03-31T17:49:58Z jmercouris: who decided the syntax of math
2020-03-31T17:50:11Z jmercouris: and why did they think it was a wise idea to combine so many notations and patterns?
2020-03-31T17:50:30Z jackdaniel: it is well offtopic now.
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2020-03-31T17:52:33Z _death: nobody decided the syntax of math, people came up with their own notations and some prevailed over others, sometimes for good reasons, other times not
2020-03-31T17:53:49Z _death: (of course, there is no one math syntax..)
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2020-03-31T18:06:19Z pjb: jmercouris: you can use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ascii:ascii-code and code-ascii.
2020-03-31T18:06:51Z pjb: jmercouris: note: ascii-control-code-p ascii-printable-code-p code-ascii-digit-p
2020-03-31T18:07:47Z jmercouris: 1
2020-03-31T18:07:57Z pjb: and (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.character:standard-character-is-ascii-coded-p) #| --> t |#
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2020-03-31T21:26:02Z lxbarbosa: hey any one knows any language different of most as lisp? eg: haskell...
2020-03-31T21:26:24Z ArthurStrong: lxbarbosa: C++? can you be more specific?
2020-03-31T21:26:25Z lxbarbosa: any other? pls exclude scheme-ones
2020-03-31T21:26:48Z aeth: do you mean closest? if you're saying Haskell and excluding Scheme
2020-03-31T21:26:51Z lxbarbosa: ArthurStrong: I mean one that is different of most modern languages.
2020-03-31T21:26:56Z White_Flame: forth
2020-03-31T21:27:00Z ArthurStrong: Prolog
2020-03-31T21:27:03Z ArthurStrong: APL
2020-03-31T21:27:06Z ArthurStrong: loads of them!
2020-03-31T21:27:12Z lxbarbosa: haha, cool! dig on!
2020-03-31T21:27:29Z lxbarbosa: thanks
2020-03-31T21:27:49Z pjb: lxbarbosa: eiffel
2020-03-31T21:28:05Z lxbarbosa: pjb: heard about that one... cool
2020-03-31T21:28:11Z pjb: lxbarbosa: and of course, there are a ton of esoteric programming languages. Piet, BrainFuck, etc.
2020-03-31T21:28:28Z lxbarbosa: pjb: I will skip brainfuck :D
2020-03-31T21:29:02Z pjb: lxbarbosa: even Life.  Have a look at life in life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8
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2020-03-31T21:31:51Z lxbarbosa: cool
2020-03-31T21:34:14Z phoe: lxbarbosa: SQL
2020-03-31T21:34:31Z lxbarbosa: phoe: fair.
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2020-03-31T21:40:59Z aeth: The furthest mainstream languages are probably C++ or Java in terms of OOP with the object system being incompatible with CL's, while being very massive so compatibility would be a lot of work. A lot of these other "far" languages can be (and sometimes have been) implemented in CL.
2020-03-31T21:41:03Z xristos: APL
2020-03-31T21:41:15Z xristos: Forth
2020-03-31T21:41:17Z xristos: K
2020-03-31T21:41:34Z jcowan: They don't have OOP constructions
2020-03-31T21:41:58Z aeth: jcowan: Well, yes, I mean in the sense that both CL and C++/Java are "OOP" languages, but only if you use different definitions of OOP.
2020-03-31T21:42:35Z aeth: They don't just have incompatible object systems, they have incompatible definitions of OOP.
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2020-03-31T21:59:35Z LdBeth: good morning #lisp
2020-03-31T22:00:07Z ArthurStrong: LdBeth: good morning indeed
2020-03-31T22:00:13Z phoe: heyyy
2020-03-31T22:00:59Z LdBeth: jcowan: both APL and Forth has their OOP variants/extensions
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2020-03-31T22:24:59Z pjb: ocaml too has an oo system, similar to an OO system in prolog, IIRC.
2020-03-31T22:25:35Z jcowan: I remember an OO system in Prolog where the objects are theories (collections of predicates)
2020-03-31T22:25:51Z jcowan: a theory could inherit from another theory in several ways
2020-03-31T22:26:11Z jcowan: the subtheory could add its rules to the supertheory's rules for a given predicate, or only add whole predicates
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2020-03-31T22:31:10Z lxbarbosa: Good morning? Japan?
2020-03-31T22:31:18Z lxbarbosa: :D
2020-03-31T22:34:00Z lxbarbosa: OOOhhh, Coq... never heard of it
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2020-03-31T23:14:41Z stylewarning: Hey Lisp folks. Just wanted to advertise the sale of my Lisp machines. Thanks! http://watrophy.com/files/lispm/lisp-sale.html
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2020-03-31T23:45:10Z pjb: stylewarning: I guess you've posted this message to comp.lang.lisp too.
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2020-03-31T23:49:14Z stylewarning: pjb: I haven’t. I’d appreciate if somebody would.
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2020-03-31T23:59:43Z lxbarbosa: for Lispers that know enough of Haskell, does it offers singular features that Lispers "must know about"? I mean, Lisp has a lot of interesting points that I did not see in .NET/Python, and I want to learn new paradigms and perspectives.